Welcome to the id ten t, podcast number nine hundred and ninety four say if you The Denver surrounding areas or you don't driving along way I'll be in Denver April 11th through 13Th, which is why, like day after tomorrow, from the time this podcast goes up Thursday April 11th two shows Friday April. Twelve two shows Saturday team tickets are going fast, kiddo, so go to comedy works comma. I will be at the comedy works in Larimer Square, which is one of my favorite clubs in the country come on down and if you got top toy an you spot me find me I'll sign it actually very much saying anything even if it's not mine, Super toy outside anything here and now stop over two year old id ten t, community corkboard event said I didn't come, is how you make the cork board

nothing to call up just this really weird memory of you know. My parents were both huge football fans. Obviously would watch a lot of football, and I just remember these: you may Nicole, and I never watched any of it, but I always just that cadence in my head. I guess you make a call right. They would like tell you what this play and then there are free to make a call, but you make the call, let's put it on you, so I guess that's put it on you. Events at id, ten t, dot, com, Keith right, I just want to raise awareness for an awesome event coming up in Philadelphia. There's a wonderful organization called for PETE's sake: cancer Recite Foundation, fps with my wife and I are the best vacation we've ever had to give us a break from the exhaustion of dealing with cancer and doctor visits this April they're having a walk at Citizens Bank Park to raise money for sending even more families dealing with cancer on great vacations

my wife and I received- will be walking and forming a team keeping Think cats party pack if you'd like to join us for this Walker, even if you'd like to donate to a wonderful cause, please check out, take a break from cancer org that is wonderful, Keith and I'm, so I hope I hope you're doing ok and I send you many hugs and I'm glad that you were able to go on a vacation with cat and wonderful that you're walking in this also. On the corkboard Allen Sanders. This is from Walt Allen Sanders in at Walt This is even live last name, I just say like well, you know Walt its Walt. He writes my Alan Sanders and I have a podcast. We breakdown the movies of gene wilder one minute at a time. Best thing: ever God, we went through young Frankenstein last season and working blazing saddles now check out the Wilder ride on any pod catcher or at

wilder ride, dot, com wall and Allen brings me so much fucking joy that you are doing that. I will absolutely so happy right now that this exists in the world. Thank you for making that good job. Again, events, an id ten t, dot com, everything you're making. This episode is David Harbour, who is promote Hell boy, which is in theaters April 12th and on season three of a who called stranger things which the kids apparently watch that's on July. Fourth, Merica Day, uh, the Netflix so David. I love this guy. We met at comic con a couple years ago down in San Diego, and we just hit it off and he's a fucking hole is dude, and not only. I'm going to say that this is one of my episodes of the podcast that we've ever done, I'm going to put this in the top ten for Maine, because it Not only is he

hilarious and we totally connect on a lot of stuff, but he very openly and earnestly and honestly about mental illness in a way that, I think, is important and and the whole time you know, even as serious or or even when the conversation finds a depth to it. It's like overtone of everything is still really really really wonderful, and so I really hope you enjoy listening to this as much as I enjoy talking to Dave so support him season, three of stranger, things July. Fourth, Hellboy in theaters April 12th, this episode of the podcast speaking support is brought to you by square space. Hey you've got idea. There stuffed in your backpack. It you've got MAC the kid I like that about your showcase, their work, blogger content, sharing your cool idea into new website with square space you're going to get beautiful templates created by class designers you're going to get powerful

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we roll the stranger thing, Z, initiating id ten t protocol. Remember I'm so delighted that you're here I I adore for so many reasons. Just that just isn't some set up a couple of there. You go you

They want to me at a comic con event and said shipmates, and I think this is all I want to talk about your life. I was so I mean that you started off with it because I was like before we get to Maine nice. The listeners of this particular podcast to know I mean: do people now. Do people recognize you for this dude I mean it has to be old old guys, like maybe yeah shipments is one of those weird. This is one of those. It was a weird slice of time that a handful of people, not everyone, remembers that it was not a big show, but a handful of people, for whatever reason are like. Oh, my god, and I don't know what it was it was. You know it was you there was. Come on here. I remember it was like because I've been living in New York, twenty four years old or something my roommate

sky, and I would watch it and he was like one thousand one hundred pm on the CW. Something was syndicated, so every every market had so much it. There was a whole breed of those shows like I think it came out very close to cheaters and blind date. She was blind date. Blind blind date was right before it yeah that Guy Roger Roger Roger Lodge Roger Lodge and then also fifth wheel with. I believe I yeah yeah. So there were a series of reality dating shows that came out wrong, which shipmates was the criminal across the top of the I mean, and only because it was such a ridiculous concept and you were young and like a punk about the whole thing, but you could come out only had one producer like egging you on another, going like Chris, please don't Joanne you and it was like it was like you were like welcome to some may is making part of the show. As you went on, I we loved it so much and we would watch it religiously. It's what you know the

yeah. I I had to I didn't ship mates will kind of piloted me through the at like it took me up to the edge of right when I got. Like I was drinking all their shipmates and then I got this over right after yeah after she made so see. So I should go back that guy, let's bring in the D Kilo. I was an edge, but I worry about that too about what but like losing your edge a little bit around. That's now that now it does it. I think that's a that's a myth. I worry about it, for you, I guess is that makes the work I do have. You know it was funny, because what you said was pretty right now. Would you would you go you go? I just loved. You are so miserable to be there and the way I was, but in a way it is so you know

so that was ninety five to ninety eight and then ninety eight, to like two thousand and one which is when shipmates happen. Um really like just try, to get work an I was. You know. I was really discover in the true uh limits of my alcoholism and it was really exploit taking it. As far as I could tell yeah, and you know, shipmates the offer came in for shipmates and blind date was very popular and I was like no, I know to do a reality dating show. By the way I don't know other job prospects, yeah and so as a result they just kept offering but like in double, then it doubled in a certain point I was like, should I don't have any money? What am I doing, and so I segretti starts it's yeah then you're like well is replaced with dollars, absolutely yeah, and so I said to them look I will do the show, but you have to let me say whatever I want like. I need to be able to make fun of the show and they said sure, and they let Maine and the

only time they ever said it. Obviously I couldn't swear, but the only the producer ever put his foot down was that I wanted compare one of the contest Mussolini and he was like old southern guy. He was like that was going to. That is that I should, and that was the only reason he did. He was like. No that's not going to that is. Meanwhile, I was all these Harry Potter, references and didn't and shooting on the show, and all of that was fine, but Mussolini. They drew the line, my god that's a bright and not even as an ideological point out the fact that, like he was a fascist dictator, that's a crew, they don't know what's going to get the right, yeah yeah, exactly I'm like. Oh my god, that's so funny to me, like this whole trajectory, I'm very interested and trajectory of careers of you know comedians actors that whole thing that go into like the hosting sort of genre right. Yeah, like like, I was watching this perfect bid

documentary and it's about a right right, yeah, it's a great document yeah, but it's like even that guy, the guy who was the price, is right: Daki guy Bob Barker yeah. They were like him starting sort of in because it was a different world. Back then was like television, yeah, you're sort of in television, and then you become like a but becoming like ugh show hosts everything yeah, it's like a whole weird world. It is an and having done I mean I've hosted almost every outside of like a sport, so which I don't know anything about. I've hosted almost every kind of I mean like I've. I have like there's just a rock graveyard of failed shows and pilots. I've no way I'll it game show like pilots, oh my god, so many away in twenty five years, yeah of course- and so I don't need this footage. Really bad ones. Shipmates was like there

like this get made, but Scatman the trajectory and I want to kind of loop it back to you and do like as far as acting goes because at a certain point you know they got the uh for shipments to and we should discuss it because it's a very good offer, though. So I can. Let me point if you're like blueberry down shipmates, I turned down stranger things. Arguably does not a good choice on my part. I really probably should effective way to go, but you know I mean But I I went through one hundred pilots, things, and I was trying to. I did sitcom pilots and I wanted to be in your initial thing- was a stand up correct, it was stand up and then, like you know, did you take acting classes? A couple, not men but but in the nineties object through is more like I'm, a writer, comedian, sort of thing yeah, and so in the nineties. You know everyone was trying to recreate friends, and so I was all I was auditioning for all these Matt Perry roles and I was falling into this into the space between

oh he's, not like handsome enough to be the leading man, but he's not like shity looking enough to be the shity friend and soon as red circles back to main process. I realized kind of like what Steve Martin said in his book I knew that there were just people who are better at auditioning better at sit calming better at acting better pretty good. Once you get me on a set, but the audition process just and so really yeah just wasn't. I wasn't good at it and why you would get nervous or you just bad it revealing your talents. In that thing, I think I just all of my head. Yeah yeah. We don't just think I was over thinking, yeah and also with hosting inst end up at a certain point. I kind of realized I kind of like being myself and I kind of like. The freedom to move rather than being sort of walked into someone else's thing, and I think that's what it came down to it. Did you ever do like groundlings

keep classes or anything like that? Never never! I'm terrified of that improves. Really. I mean I I now tend to like improv within acting within. You know scenes yeah, but I I don't like the grounding stuff, because I felt the focus is to be funny, and that is yeah that just shuts me down so hard. You are funny, though, that's weird to me when I don't care, but when I care and when I feel like there's a directive or a goal, everything in my being in so many ways, I mean it's probably why I've been wildly unsuccessful, there's a longer because there's something in my being that just recedes and just goes inside of myself I'm so I I hate that I hate the pressure to I mean that's part of my sort of what I consider my artistic nature is to like results, oriented right, which is the best way to be right, because I can't really be disappointed if you're, not if you're process oriented you everything

the process. I like that bigger you can't be too simple. You can't really figure terrible, it's true, no, no, but but like if you're not result oriented, because you can't control the result. You can't control. If you're going to get jobs, you can't control those jobs again, it shows exactly I mean when you jack, when you stranger things are like okay, we're gonna use, Netflix show who the knows: what's this yeah yeah beyond who the no, I don't even think, Netflix initially expected it. I think they were just like. Let's just put it on and see what happens and then within an hour, people are seen the show like it. It was a phenomenal. That's exactly what happened, although Netflix would claim that that was all master plan masterminded by their way of wanting people that ownership of the show like, because I was terrified like the week or the week before it came out. There were no ads right like on buses, billboards and, like you, you walk around New York and it's just like you know. The time is like House of Cards Orange is new black or,

these huge Netflix shows just so much money, and I had a friend who is on a very popular like CW, show and was like yeah man they're bearing it like they don't like it. They are burying it and I was like, oh, my god, big shot, I've loaded and we've all blown it and then, and then I was like, and now they name and the show came out and what's the so gratifying, is that it was a grassroots success. Yeah like it wasn't hyped so that that was like people just grab the show more like this is the and now Netflix sort of it's like we're back to them because of the people, and I was like: why did you guys it does show in there like? Well, that's our way of letting people take ownership for the jobs like that is very clever and also the cost effective. Isn't it yeah I'll say like you know what it just was a hitch we didn't they come in and just yeah yeah, I don't know I mean 'cause, they claim to have been behind it, but then, like that was nothing like. It was a weird opening, but that's something

makes it all. The sweeter is the fact that it wasn't hyped at all. People didn't know about it right and I think it did have this thing for people were. There were like whoa there's just this jam out there that, like I, can tell my friends about nobody shoved it down. My throat yeah that's, that's the other part of it too. I think especially the kind of audience I mean is one of those magical things that, if you you understand all the deep rooted, nerd ship, that's going on in the show like there's a magical level of that, but even if you don't get that there's still a very cool women, Sci FI story. That's going on that! It's like all the nerdy, nerd trench stuff, is my bonus, and so it's somehow, inclusive of everyone, every audience and you're right, I think that audience loved, discovering things like you said rather than having it shoved down their throats, and it just shows that nothing can substitute for a good word of mouth

uh, the can't control and just like a good show, yeah good product. I mean the thing. The thing it was so interesting is uh. We're going to nerd out here right. This is the nerd pop yeah yeah yeah. Ok, I'm going to big confessions here. I think people know this about me already but like I'm like Twitch TV, that's even oh, my god. If we get into that, I'm in trouble, I remember getting about after I hosted blown over like you're watching watching the Blizzcon. You were terrific by the way, but yes, I watched that which stuff and the one thing that folks did do is they put it out? They have their own twitch channel. They had a couple streamers come on and do some stuff and they had like. You could say things in the chat like turn on the lights or something they would like do things in the lights, and they did make the first eight minutes available to the public

like a big teaser for the first season and people were so nasty, you know fans are like. If they don't know something or something is weird. Sometimes they can just like get nasty about it and they were so nasty about it. And then the eight minutes, and I watched that evening, like it was like, maybe a week before it came out or something I watched that evening. These, like streamers, be really nasty about it and then watch the eight minutes and be like Let's look so good and it slowly start to turn, but it was just like there was even a backlash, even in that community around it being like a fake, Spielberg thing or like. Why do we need this stupid crap? You know move and then and then there's just the quality of the show where you would just started to see it emerge. It's so funny to me that someone on a game

streaming platform be like. Why do we need this like? Why do you need the thing you're complaining about it? All you don't need any of this. Come on man little I mean getting like that's you know. That's all of us were like the worst I'd like the biggest offender, though I have to say like I'm, the guy was like he. What are they thinking it's fun to sit on new things I just sort of it sort of gives you a you know. Maybe it makes everyone kind of feel like autonomous in a very royal way. It's like take it away even looked at it and I don't need it wait, bring it back in. I had. You know, like defense, responds exactly yeah playing Warcraft right now, not right. Now I dipped in now, did you play it all? I got sucked back into a Bfa or Diablo Diablo three on I played on twitch on the on the all right away. That was a the at the recent, because that was a big disaster. I don't even know if the continued development on

game, I will be the whole phone right right right right, talk about a fan response, yeah yeah! They like people were not happy, but I wonder how much companies can sort of weather make an initial backlash. You know like a handful of whatever it went viral that they're angry about it, but is that every the exam is that, like the loudest thousand? That will that she, we just put it out and see it? What happens? Is that that's the thing like it? It is, apparently I guess I had heard something about how STAR wars did some like data testing around this stuff because of some of what's happened to their thing, and I think that what they found was that in general, that the that negative in response is a very small, limited number of voices yeah, but it's very loud yes- and it actually does have some sort of reverberate they're all doing it at once. Right then it then it can seem. You know it's, it's the the way that one thousand,

can seem like everyone, it's like right. Well, it's it! You know it's like an angry thousand gamers and of those thousand you know a percentage are probably really passed in a bunch of other ones are just- and I guess or I cannot watch it burn. You know, that's true, it does have this. You know this mentality where it's a bandwagon works at farm to get out and watch people squirm yeah, I think that's been the drama of reality. Television, life itself for so long as yeah. Look at him chase that kid back like yeah, let's run out one of these people doing we will keep coming back to shore Bank in that code base with them on a ship for three days and have them fall in love, take away their money or make him. You know what I wanted to go on that show. Could we do a special Netflix Special, where I go on the show which, what one episode is just one special, very special episode of shipmates. Yes, we could do

even as we could do it as chief Hopper and Joyce Byers, we do it in character. Doing as well believe it is helpful and the blood queen yes and see how they exactly. As you know, the thing about, I think the thing about blind date is a blind date which is not going to care about this, but it's funny to me because the mechanics of it, my name, is shipmates. Without the and it was also shot in LA and the guys that that's a distant where was she made saw shipmates was shot out of New York and my and my and of course, because that's where the show that's on ships going up. So the reason that that is, you never will Miami no yeah yeah, I mean my my mom's from Miami. I grew up. I kind of I lived, there is good, but I never went on any of the cruises, but so missed opportunity. So blind date was shot in LA which meant that all of the people that went on blind date were out of work actor.

All the people who went on shipmates were like barbacks outsiders, people in beautician school. They were like the real deal like. I don't have to take this blocking bullshit. You know like you can't tell me what to you know, and so, like I'm blind date was very polished and they were very like performing right and our people were like real deal, hungover imprisoned on a screw carnival cruise ship for three to five days. Miserable penniless, like everything is just every element was like how we get it. How far can we push these people to create friction, and then, on top of that, they were casting you know: colorful person Maletis or people Gore, and so it was, I always said- shipmates was great for television and terrible for humanity. So so that was the key distinction between those two, but that's but you're right

well just kind of loops back to that kind of reality: television watching a train wreck yeah yeah yeah, but but it you know it is an interesting thing. So I guess what do we get off on that? It was something about that which thing you were talking about, which we were talking about, watching it burn, and we were doing that well, who love to see the crash, who just look at the reality? Television yeah, it's an interesting thing and that's what social media has done is basically turn our culture into reality. I struggle with that now. I really do like I'm having a real problem. With social media in general and all levels. Now I hear that a lot these days for you I mean, but like a year and a half ago or something you know, I sort of had wins. Since you came out, it was like I was in love with social media. I mean I was you know I was making all these funny posts about me. Looking like joke

you're, looking like italian dire ever in, like I was doing twitter challenges with kids, take their high school photos and I've. I felt this sort of warm. It felt like a warm fun cocktail party right that you know is started to turn for me to this weird thing where it's like it just does. It feels like like what what are we doing? What are we doing anymore, we're just yelling at each other now? Well, that's the thing, so it's sort of like if, if you're at a new year's Eve Party and it's really fun and halfway through everybody, a bunch of roads just right and then a bunch of robots come in and they're like now. This is going to be. This is battle. Royale now sold the loudest angriest. You know, because you know that that the algorithms kind of prioritize, the most extreme point, the view across every sector, the loudest. You know most super relative and usually that's angry, get up, voted

and then in turn those seem to be the most important right there necessarily, but that's just how it's prioritized to create this engagement, because people rally around just want drawn, they just want the drama and not engage and it's creating sort of a non entirely. I think true, full scope of what the world is like what you said. Oh one thousand people can make it seem like everyone. It's like. This is a very specific I found it to be. Actually the direct of the world like I live in New York, and so I walk around and people that I interact with on a daily basis or not this way, no and then either way. You know, I have nuanced conversations with people all the yeah yeah. Some people are so that you can get a ride, but also that we, you know care about each other's feelings and k care about each other's well being, and you can sort of feel that when you, when you have a human interaction with some you're like so when I'm talking to you, I feel like you're listening to me and you care about me. You might disagree

with me or get angry with me, but still you consider me a human being. I will and then it does broaden the bronze bronze to this place in our it's just like, and it doesn't even matter what point of view. I agree with anymore right: like you know, I'm a leftist Reimer right or I'm a fan of know for a fan of that or I'm uh. You know I want these rights or that right, it's more just like the vitriol and the idea that you know we, as you say, like the only way to get hurt, is to scream super loud or be as provocative as you possibly can yeah like those gentle voices of like a nuanced Santa that may be compromised that may live in a world of compromise that may live in an imperfect world and be accepting of that. All these things are lossed, and so in that way I just get like it does feel like candy, it's like I'll go on sometimes- and I, like you, know, get turn up, but people either be like yeah man or they'll be like putting it, but it feels like I'm eating candy.

Next step away and I'm like I'm still kind of buzzing walking those like social cocaine which parking ticket on. I can't get hard exactly what's happening, and so it is 'cause. I think you know the people who they have nuanced conversations they're, just not there too healthy to compete with the loud voices and in social media is a great supplemental form of communication, but it has begun to supplant what we view as the full scope of our human experience, and it's it's not like. I'm so glad to hear you say that really really really is not. It just seems that way. If you're on, social media all day long, if that's really acting and the fact that the news media now takes its cue from social media is crazy to me

No, I don't believe no one fact. Checks for social media and other media outlets are just like pulling something like well yeah. I don't know. If that are you sure, did you check that? I know I know that's the thing about like anytime. I want to get and then the whole headline thing. I mean it's so weird that I you know I I I we could very independent free press, but the things that people are doing to click bait into the even around me, and now I'm in the middle of this past or it's like I'm talking to people and this made all day, long like in Redmond, and I'm just like saying what I think and I like can't wait for me to have said something sure but like take it out of context. There's a crazy idea that, like so it's just it's kind of mind, blowing that we don't you know we want to. Sort of be provocative in these ways, and it just it just feels like disheartening yeah, and it must Maybe it's always been. That way has always been that way. It has

I think it's sort of you know when you think about the when you think about when the difference between world war. Two and Vietnam and Vietnam is a televised war and I'm sure people at that or like. Oh my God was it always like this and it's like yeah, you just didn't start, seeing everything and now we're just we're, seeing everything what we're focusing on is the most negative stuff, because that's the stuff that taps at our insecurities, that's the stuff That's he engages our. You know sense of justice and that's the stuff that it just it's the most emotive and- and I think you I think we can be a dip did to negativity in a very dangerous way and in a way that I think sociologists like five thousand years from now will be like. Oh my,

God. Why did you know yeah? I don't think. But again I don't find that in actual reality like when I'm at the coffee shop or when I'm sitting here talking with people like, I don't think that that's human nature, when you have but I think there is something chemical that goes on in our skin when we're around each other. That's different cut off completely when we're online yeah and I think it becomes. Maybe it's just the idea that you're a fleshy creature that could get you know we messed with or something, and so you seek to understand each other or come together in some sort of way. You don't like you know, but but I think there is something that happens online when that stuff is cut off that just gets. It does just moves toward that You know when you look at the history of human evolution and how, in the last twenty, five years. If this whole this form communication that has not really ever existed before.

Our brains did not evolve to catch up with this like we are evolved to be around each other and be communal and to look at each other and to read no language. The words you use, are a small percentage of language and so it, but now when we're just looking at words and it's depersonalised. I mean, of course, we're not involved to handle that yet and of course, it's so fucking, crazy and weird. So even these concepts I mean it is so funny how quickly we're advancing now, because even the concept of like I guess David something years ago about how, when you were you in that in the early in the 1800s, let's say really only meet like

yet most like twenty five hi. I like the idea that the modern world this was used to interconnect so so these ideas of love that they had in, like you know the eighteen, hundreds and and what that means today in terms of just the amount of interaction that you have yeah, you could obsess about someone all these. You know these really fundamental societal concepts that are starting to be deconstructed or, as you say, community itself. Well, yeah, yeah yeah, when the entire, when, when you know when your unity before was you know, maybe even if you lived in the city was a few thousand, maybe a few thousand people, your you probably knew. I had full of those people yeah and now a community is like you know, billions it like the whole world is localized yeah. That's that's really had to be, but I think I think you're right. I think it is important

to force ourselves to just step away from it and just go have like we have to take on the responsibility to go, have real human interactions. Yeah I mean- and it's finishing thing because I I was very very into it for like, as I say like about a year and a half ago, because really having a great time on it, and then you know, things started through and I started to want to talk about more little, more complicated stuff and I found like it was just really difficult. You can't- and so I'm like writing this book now that has been so refreshing because it's like you can and who knows how that will be limited fiction book but now it's more memoir. It has to do with, like my experiences around mental illness and things like that, and and so, but it's very it's very,

it's amazing to be able to sit at a desk and formulate an idea. That's like two hundred pages long, and that has within it all this subtle color of your experience that is and then to go on twitter and to have like whatever a hundred characters, to like explain your point of view right and there's something even about opinions in general that I started the it just really sick of it was like 'cause he's eat at the dog show on the news shows on CNN or Fox NEWS. All these things, which is like everybody, is just so full of opinions, and it seems, like things are not you know, I just want people to stop, having opinions are just like like it would be great, I think, would be so interesting to see. I'm one of these, like CNN, pundit, shows or something talk about something to have, somebody lay down something and then just have them all just stop and just think about it for, like a minute,

I would never have it on television is people are so quick, but it would be really interesting to just watch people just even in the act of just thinking and considering. Well, I think a show whose rules were I mean I for for a while. I was considering I'm not going to do it 'cause. I don't have time or energy to do another podcast, but to basically have I think that's along the lines of like a polite discourse where it's like you know you get two people opposing views, yeah and they are not allowed to like yell at each other insult each other and they have to talk and they don't have to agree, but they also don't have to dehumanize. Other, and to see if there's a way, because you can do that around shipments, which I think it's the greatest of all time. I think it was you had problems with and what may have been. I don't, I don't think humanizing, because I could right but it, but I just, I think, the idea that the goal should be understood. I think the goal should be understanding and finding common.

I think so so that we don't isolate ourselves. You know increasingly isolate ourselves, so there are moments of where we there is. Tolerance is an interesting thing. Moments where intolerance is important. Absolutely, but but yes in general, I would say most of the cases there. You know when people are trying to keep out groups or b, or themselves be intolerant because of prejudices. Yes, that but I also think that, having like, when you come at someone aggressively their defenses, to go up and they're, not going to hear you so you're, not so it's just all I believe that I actually think that facts are almost irrelevant like this is the thing about Ality itself. This pin, bending so: let's go there. Um reality itself is a shared agreement right. So the idea that

There's, there's there's the real to me and then there's the true, I think so this idea, the real is so not important. What's important is the true like what even when people go into psychotherapy, I read something where they were talking about how they're looking for with the therapist for the truth. They don't care about. The reality like the reality could be that I'm like grotesquely fat but like the truth is that is something different like. I don't necessarily know that those, and when you approach somebody who has a shared agreement, truth, that's very large with facts or reality in a certain way. I think it's almost irrelevant. It's like it has to be approached on a shared truth, as opposed to I find this in terms of the the around the you know. Mental illness framework is like,

there's so many things that are agreed apon as sane in our society, like you, know, working Orlemann brothers and raping the earth exploiting you know tons of groups of people for pure profit that way and you eating one lunch right, and yet that's you just like Wiley saying where is like walking on the street, taking your clothes off screaming a people's view doesn't say I like but like, but like yes of course, and yet it's in arbitrary agreement like in another world in another place in another time. We would view those even brothers guys wildly they need to do that in community, but the guy walking down the street screaming it's just exuberant and like fun like, but but I think that there's there's this idea that real exists, and I think it's so just unproductive. Well, that's I've never heard that. Put that way before the difference in reality and truth 'cause, I think people enter

swap those because they think their reality is, of course the truth, but did the thing about the way that we kind of create? Are you know rhythmically, delivered social media bubble or like internet digital world bubbles, not just social media, but the as we get or the sites we visit or what we see on Youtube. It is all picked because it it and it takes you fur further down a path and isolates more and more and more and gives you things that helped confirmation spell confirmation bias bubble and that you think is True you go well. This is true, because this is everything I'm seeing and it is because for your particular community or particular group, it is true. I mean the interesting thing, even in terms of like the mental illness. Community is something like back in the 40s women, could sort of be married and say to your wife like you're, crazy, I'm putting it in the asylum there's something

stereo, yeah, yeah, yeah, tested right, yeah and, like now, you know, thank God would have been like. We just see the world differently than you guys do, and you're like no. No. This is the way it is like. I think, for years, white guys have been like this. The way it is this is the reality and and other groups of people like. Actually, we view reality differently and that it's been an incorporation of these different groups, but the and these different realities, but the actual and the actual realities themselves. I think you're almost like little and so to approach broaching someone's reality or their truth with simple facts is like is like almost like, throwing pebbles at a as soon not at it in a day, yeah yeah. He ran like what are you doing like use? You is this shared inherent truths or the hypocrisy behind whatever it is? But facts like you know,

but the interesting thing where it's almost like, I'm almost like in the fake news camp or like, which is you know, I'm very liberal in my pool, but but I understand this idea of like taking responsibility for our shared agreements and moving forward with that, as opposed to going like. No, the fact is this. The fact is this and really trying to coach. You know creating a reality together, as opposed to like, because that's what I find on twitter all time is. This is like so like somebody saying something, and then somebody throwing facts at them and then the other person like throwing fax, back and facts are all selective right. You know, and so that's what I get so frustrated I'm like you're, not approaching their reality or their community in a certain way, your from your broaching them with these pebbles, and it just feels like a bunch of irrelevant. You know pebble, throwing as it was to truly trying to

understand the mindset of the reality of the mindset of the truth and giving the truth itself the respect that someone's truth deserves, be it is insane as you want to think it is. I mean you know it's still giving it the respect of it being truth, as opposed to just wrong. Well, we're kind of living in opinion is fact era and people rather than trying to I mean, like in any situation, and I think this might have been like. I David Allen, getting things done or was it a David l? I don't know it's, it's a it's sort of a productivity thing like how to be an effectively productive person, yeah yeah, you've, to seek first to understand yes and but people tell the only two seek first to protect their own opinion rather than because it's very painful, it is a painful. Requires a lot of energy to go. You know, I might not know I might be wrong. I might and that's, and so people are so protective and they can go trenches, were they don't have to be challenged where they're, just you know, confirmed, confirmed

term and are you? Are you a know, we're not supposed to talk about this? radio Filbert are you, you know, I'm I'm sober. I have complete respect for AAA when I just got sober the first few meetings I went to didn't. Hi really resonate with me, yeah yeah, and so I set up a come. You need a support structure. It is over. So I set up a completely different support structure that involve comedians and therapists and and stuff like that, and I do go sometimes, but I just I'm not a I'm, not a habitual go. I know I I I look. I'm I've had my own, you know experiences with them, but- and I you you're not really supposed to talk about it, but I was so many people and I think I have all the respect in the world. But I've had a tremendously positive but one of the things in terms of changing your life like if you are self destructive person like an alcoholic, like drinking and doing these things that are one of the interesting little. They have a couple little

things, one of which I love, which is feelings, aren't facts which is great, but their feelings like and so in a sense like feelings are almost more than facts, and so yes for the self reflective wanting to change person. The idea that a feeling isn't a fact is a great thing, they are open and responsive to that. But the reason why you offer this to someone when they're in a rigid state, because in our normal waking life I feel like fax, our own, fax or so irrelevant like and even for me into the mind of roses. Like you know, I could have all the facts in the world that I have you know whatever you know, friends that care about me or, like a you, know, money in the bank or whatever, but it's just I'm just miserable and I'm gonna die in a movie. What is the like? My feelings is all important. Well it it in my life and I feel like in terms of approaching approaching a changing conversation.

This idea of throwing pebbles at my neurosis is silly 'cause. My my neurosis is a lot stronger than your fax, and so that's the thing, even in terms to me in terms of dealing with shared truths or shared agreements, is like really trying to be able to approach them from the feeling standpoint, which is what you're saying seeking to understand yeah, but that's it but you're, absolutely right that, and you know not a new scientists over here, but it feels like the way that our brains work is that base. Emotions originate in our amygdala. You know like sort of the fear and the all the lizard brain stuff, all the survival stuff, and they trickle up to the emotional brain which then sort of builds perative around those about how we feel in our molecules and then our higher brain functions. Just you know like However, we've learned or been conditioned sort of pics and sort through. Ok, I'm going to sort this here. I'll put this here now, I'm going to make the choice, for my life, but I feel, like you know when who are driven by feelings as facts, you're sort of

smooshing, that you know it's easy to shove. The logic part of your brain out of the way it's kind of like when someone is in a in a job That makes a miserable in a relationship that makes him today? You should get out of that and they go. I know I know I know, but they can't feel it because it feels like it's harder to cram logic back down into the into the base emotional part of your brain. And so how do you create? new emotional pathways that allow you to navigate all the things you're talking about 'cause. I think anyone gotten sober. We deal with all of that stuff, yeah and I mean I think, but in terms of 'cause. I'm thinking about are even a larger level like there are just these '

societal agreements that we are making constantly, and I just think just to acknowledge that like to stop getting in these trenches of these ideas that there's a right and a wrong or that there's a fact, even that there's a fact, there are facts of things that happened, the facts themselves when they're being used and how they're being used are always selective. So it's just there's a lot more nuanced. In terms of that conversation, and I feel like yeah and again, this comes down to like a really crazy cosmic conversation about what the nature of reality is in jail. 'cause. I do think the nature of reality in some sense is a shared conscious. It is, but it's also being challenged, because there are so many everyone can have such a specific ality now and we don't SARA Lee. We aren't really encouraged to agree upon broad concept. We're encouraged to be like my

super nice. Specific version of everything is the right way, and so I feel like we're becoming more and more isolated and even in the sense that I was awful major when we first started talking existential ISM in the idea that, like I see a brown table- and you might say you see a brown people, but do I really know what that means to you and it's like? No, oh, my god, you know like I, don't know what you see as Brown. I know what I see is brown, but we assume that what we see is whatever it is. You know it's like what I'm saying: you're right. If that's not it at all, it's it's I mean, and it's wildly confusing, but the whole idea to broaden. I guess it's just this idea of like that. That's something it going back to social media is there. Is this.

Very strong conversation that feels somewhat in a vacuum, and I think how do we do this thing where we broadened somewhat like empathy for different points of view, but just broadening empathy for people's realities as being different from ours, which I feel like you're right. We headed in a direction that isn't that way, but we have to get in. We have to see each other in person because, when you're in, racing with the machine. We are not programmed to feel empathy for a device, and so you transitively don't feel empathy for the person on the other side of their device, because you're communicating in a very in a way, so it it is forcing are supposed to meet in person and getting right in and and for all of you listening to the machine, podcast I would like to acknowledge the hypocrisy and the duality of the fact that we all live, emits the hypocrisy, constant know, what's going to happen,

is it David and I are going to come, do a podcast for each and every person who were going to go shake your hand. I want to hear about your. I want to hear about your book, I'm wondering if you want to talk about it, because it because my God, this is really going to lock me into having to write it. That's good! That's good you'll be accountable. No, I mean like yeah, like I'm pouring into this idea. I mean the free, the the the big thing, I've. You know I've struggled with what people deem meant illness for my life, I've been you know. I've been labeled diagnosed as bipolar, and I've had about seventeen years of a struggle with this particular thing and it's been very complicated

uh, and so I was asked by some people who liked my writing. Just unlike you know, silly platforms like they liked my Instagram post, which was just the way I sort of things and that- and I got us what I would like to write about and really for me that the initially sort of began as this just you know, thinking about my struggles, with mental illness and now it's become like a whole thing about almost about reality. Self, and and just about me and my own identity in a weird way. You know what I mean like and and I've explored, because I've been through the gamut of a lot of different things with it like there's the medical model, and I do take a medication which I have taken for a long time. I don't particularly like taking it,

also sort of, as I say, living the duality like I take and live in this world, but I also sort of don't with the world in a lot of ways. So I sort of lived this duality, and the thing that I found most of all is I've liked, as I've spiraled around is like. Bipolar and even schizophrenia in terms of the things that I've read is like really some kind of search for identity it feels like, and there is there's some there's little evidence to reconcile a biological component. But there's a lot of evidence to recognize are like a social component to it like. There are these drugs that we have in the world that do things to the brain in a certain way, but the broader context is that there is trauma I feel like in all of us. That needs to be reconciled, be it in various different ways and and and

but the trauma exists even as we say like, I think, even dealing with twitter is it true that can be a traumatic event like like, so how we are in the social world that social animals is just something that I'm trying to explore with. This come up a lot of room identity and it comes up around being an actor you know, and so in a way it Schartz. My the book will chart my experiences with this, and also the ways that I've used through you know because Falco Hole for me. It was a big one at one point and then there's various forms of acting out and then there's very creative, really positive forms that I have been very good and, and then, but it's all been seeking this identity, which I find these alternative therapies very interesting. Like there's, people like Frieda, Fromm, Reichmann and George Atwood freedom from Redmond sort of was the therapist you ever hear that book. I never promised you a rose gold

No, ok, there's a book called. I never promised you a rose garden, which is basically about a schizophrenic woman who beat who gets cured of schizophrenia through intensive, like with no medication and the thrust behind some of these theories and the guy George outward talk about this amazing thing. As you know, like I'll give you a case study, simple things like this woman. Convinced that their schizophrenic convinced they're vampires, like everyone's vampire all these vampires coming to get me and he and a lot of times what happens with crazy people. Is you medicate the crap out of here like vampires? Don't exist? Here's a bunch of medications said the hell down. Let's get back to reality right, but with this guy Atwood went in and said you're

we are like vampires, they suck you dry every time, so he hit it head on and gave her a a. He tried to take the literal and say well. This is metaphorical and you're not wrong from this point of view Rex, but not even I mean the interesting thing about shared agreements, and this is where I get is the literal and metaphoric so are so, mundanely connected to us on such and such a visceral level, that the idea that your head could spiral off into metaphor. You break its biological metaphor in a weird weird way, like even money like we walk around and these like green, like we hand metaphors round or it now, it's not even cash. It's like a card with numbers, it's numbers on a screen and like we

into these metaphors so strongly that like, if you were to lose all those numbers on the screen, you might jump out of building and kill yourself like it's our society. We are a mythical being. We don't exist in the physical world anymore, physical needs can be met, but if our social, these aren't mythically? We already left so much because I've really been stuck this idea lately that what's been freaking me out, but is like you know, most of the you are certain about or assumptive almost everything you are sure your kind of assuming because you just don't, we have to do shortcuts to prop. We have to create shortcuts to process the amount of information at all times to navigate the current world with all of the trying to process all this information, so we just do shortcuts. Are we just headlines. Ok, that's probably true 'cause. I believe they need to sort this, and so, but if you really were to go through, you might realize, like, oh my god, most of all believe I actually can't prove some of the,

but I thought I believed I actually believe the opposite. Other things are wildly not true. You know it's like it's fucking like if anyone really sat with the first second might flip him out a little bit yeah so like. I actually think well in a lot of cases like this kids, very other bipolar, like something where you just sitting with a lot of fundamentally crazy concepts and just allowing you know, sometimes when you stare at the darkness too long. The darkness starts to stare back and like take this example with the vampires. Like the idea that a metaphor of prism and like whatever it is, that she's consumed in her brain. That made her think that this was real is the same things that we consume in our brains that make us think one hundred dollars is worth dinner like it's the same thing, it's just hers or society on sanction. Dinars are societally sanctioned so He really, and this is again the whole thing about like going in with the agreements as opposed to fax give me the medication model is like the fact is, there aren't vampires.

And you do get the fax after awhile, like they shoot you up with HAL Doll or whatever and like you get. The fact fact is, like I'm sitting in a chair or whatever, but to actually approach the trauma. What you have to do is understand the reality behind the thing, because a lot of times, I think, when people deal with these issues, be they depression or mania or psychosis or anything they're just they're actually living in a reality that is true and that when you assault them with pebbles, you just assaulting a shared social agreement. You're not you're, not actually addressing their truth, and so this guy went in and sort of addressed their truth, and I have found that on a much more subtle like I have been through the the with all these different things, and and now I'm in like psychoanalysis and and the big thing psychoanalysis is like, and also even the way the culture has embraced me is,

actor in the way that I tell a story like then we re fame has been very good for my own. I was going to ask you about that. If you have you up, because it takes you out of some shared social experiences, because it's like you know, people recognize you now and I do bigger is up, but I'm glad to hear that it's like the first person that I've heard always there. No it's actually been really good. Yeah, I think what's great about it is because I used to be just like some wacko artists in the east village could walk around and, like feel not so now, I feel a little response be like more sane, so there's a part of that, and you also do feel part of a larger community where people just kind of know. You, like me, walk around in airports and people like Dave look like so your community gets larger, like you can't be as invisible in a certain way. That's really and that's actually, the responsibility of that is really great um and also on some level of the validation of the story. That or

stories that I have to tell is what I've been see and kind of my whole life, like I'd, like to think that my artist is purely it's just purely for the people Chris, but actually I have a deep seated neurosis well actually, and how uncomfortable to admit. The fact that I, on some o level need people to accept my story on a broad level or I go crazy. That's the theme of today's discussion know it. Some, but this idea that it is liberating to have people go like oh yeah. We get what you're talking about and then to. Dealing with the talk therapy to is a real shared agreement of you know someone who's, a very trained professional. Being able to see me see my story, see the story that I'm telling see the gaps in where it's adding up and then to be able to really talk it through. But you know, the funny thing is in terms of how to deal with

how to do 'cause. I think that we all struggle mental illness is becoming a huge. It already is a huge issue, but it's becoming even more, and I know if you If you there's a lot to our mentally ill, but also you look, I'm sure you love someone is mentally ill or I have a a parent or a friend or a co worker or who struggles with these ideas. I mean it touches all of us and I think the most interesting way to deal with these things is that people get so told because the mental eel can be exhausting. You know it's exhausting to have a friend who's. Like always said you just like. Oh please I just want to. I don't want to have to hear that or like you know, who's is crazy, and so, but I will say that the most validating experiences are those where you can really listen to and believe someone, even if it's resistant, even if you say to them like you, can't act. This way, you know which I think is important too,

but it's really being able to see someone, as opposed to this thing, that we do in society. I think with people like that words, you just kind of make them invisible, just kind of move away, so you don't have to deal with it exactly yeah, and I think that dealing with it, by entering into those realities with people, as opposed to like having to push them away, and it's an interesting societal thing now with his like with the, You know the medicalization becoming even more prominent. Is I really am worried about pathologizing normal, because you want you want people to be weird: you know what I mean like you, don't want to have like a normal thing and then, outside of that we we brands mental illness or whatever right. We want people to we and that's it that to me comes back to communities where it's like. We want communities to be able to Corp in call. Brittany, Chris who's, like a weirdo once a month like wanders around, like you know,

going to deal with, but I got a deal with them yeah and I think that as we get more, you know ours. Our communities get more limited in all these ways and and as you say, look we become more insulated. We have less tolerance for these things, and- and that was medicated, more or pathologize yeah, and that's the thing that I mean about. You know just sort from that idea of building on that idea of becoming more insulated and isolated. Is that if we're able to create these perfect bubbles. In these kind of digital lives, that we leave where we agree, one hundred percent with everything that's around us in our immediate vicinity, it makes us less flexible to then find common. It just conditions us to be less flexible so that you see that if, if people don't He was something one hundred percent. They don't go away, try to understand if they go. That's that's the fun

first and it's like well, you just don't agree with it a little bit and you might not agree with that. One hundred percent, but if you don't agree with it, a few percent, isn't it worth trying to understand a little bit? You know an were just becoming rigid and I think that's dangerous. Me too, but I would love it, but that, but that the book is like so the books. You know that some of the thrust, but also some of it, is just been my wacky experiences in an asylum and indeed with very, as you know, because there's a lot of color to this world as well, but I feel like doesn't get talked about enough. The you know creatives or you know, like my experience with this ride, has been very colorfully fun and weird too. So a lot of it's been liberated from because I get to talk about it down the I get talk about. Society gets talk about treatments and things like that, and also I get to like, tell areas fun stories. I've never told about it. You know this world well an because Anet also when you do, especially when you tell it in that way, it's kind of destigmatize.

So that it doesn't seem like them. It's sort of oh this is it like So if you wanted to share an asylum story, you could, if you want to save it for the book, I completely understand trying to think of like really good one. I mean they're all there. I just think how long? How long were you there have been a couple. You know there's been a couple so In general, the length stays have been around week and a half sometimes a week, sometimes two weeks and in general, it's classically defined mania, which is uhm, that it's never violent. Thank God, it's uh

as with most mental ill, many as they're not violent. I think one of the common misconceptions is that you know manic or even psychotic. People are going to kill you and they're, not they're, just confused right, and I think they actually are the victims of violence like ninety nine percent of the time, as opposed to the perpetrators of it, because they're doing confusing things and so mine have always been related to the search for God in some sense the guy I've been, you know, I think many people are, but I'm always looking. I've been looking for and I'm actually not looking for as much, but I have for a lot of my life and looking for the answer and not just thinking about living in the question. No wow, oh wow, that's a man fucking just to hear you say that it just

There's not a shift in my brain like yeah, it's like God, living in the question. Of course. Maybe that's it. You know maybe maybe that's it. I think it's helpful as that. It's very helpful. I'm getting one's very result, oriented fighting sold or you- and here I am saying, I'm an artist with process, and I and I'm just like all I've been doing my life when I go off the rails is like looking for the answer like looking for the thing, that's going to fix it or solve it or that define well, I mean like on a broad level right, we're all just like going to die. I mean that's crazy, yeah, like it's crazy that were like going to go Tord this thing where it's like. We don't exist anymore and nobody's come back from it. Nobody can tell us. What's really I mean people get talk about, but we don't have empirical evidence of like after this body, guys like there's a place in the clouds. There's this guy Saint Peter yeah. It's here in the gates or there's like were reincarnated as a turtle, and

you know what I mean like. I hope I come back as it moves are awesome. I had a box turtle when I was young, that guy was awesome, Barney, ok, already great. I love Barney yeah. Now now you're gonna go to Saint Peter, and but he just got a you know what they're doing is they're going to look at a book of what you did is gonna love your browsing history. I was in a dark place. I was just curious much like that after we die. Doesn't I don't doesn't bother really. I don't know why what I do not care, because I didn't know what it was like to not be alive before I was born. I didn't know, but now you do yeah, but it doesn't. But this I just doesn't the thing. That's, here's. What scares red like dreadful experiences, I think that's. Why as I said, on the podcast before more people, you know, like more people are afraid of flying than eating

cheeseburgers despite the fact that heart disease kills way more power play. No, it's true. Why well heart attack is just a light switch flicking off and which time my dad die and I'm going down in a plane is dreadful like it sounds terrible, you know, and so, if you're on a plane, now you're safe, specifically you're, very safe, you everything's going to be fine, but it's just loan so much in the past. Few weeks there, okay, it is going to be on the fear of dread, but I'm, but I would love to you know if it's, if you don't mind like went when you're having an episode. What does it feel like you know? 'cause, I don't know when I'm having deep anxiety. Well, here's the talk about dread right, the actual thing that I think people fear more than dying is like going crazy because it's like personality death right I mean it's even worse than physical death. You somewhat lose consciousness of your behavior. It's like sleep walking to a certain degree. There's a physical

opponents like I've learned throughout the years as I've as I've dealt with it as far as we as I can, through, especially through talk therapy, but also with medications and other therapies that there are signs that I can start to get to. There are things that I can start to figure out, but once it starts to go, it's a bit like a force of nature like it's a bit like a hurricane and it's a bit like a blackout, so in I've kind of come to in the hospital, and then I start to

remember things that I've done, and sometimes people have to tell me things that I've done. But I don't remember- and this comes really Interesting- Lee into identity, because I there is a consistent identity to me, even even in the black like. I do things that are weird, but I I'm not I'm not violent, but I'm weird and I'm big, I'm exuberant. There are these things that are me that kind of come out, but that's a real investigation of like who really are you when you sleepwalk? Are you- and this is you know, conscious in general, right click? Chris Hardwick has a waking life at dad, passed out sleep life and a dream life right like which are you. You of course, claim you're the conscious walking around part, but there is a part of you that, just as like a sleep right, the like hours pass and like that was

you, but you know, and then there's parts of you where you're in a dream- and it's like that's, actually you but you're in a dream and it's kind of the same thing on a broader level when this happens like you actually are in a dream world. But you maintain this consistent thread that to me like, as I've, been on my spiritual quest two, I do think some sort of I'm not called the soul, but I'll call it like the into lectures and there's something that either something that's happening in the trajectory of our our lives. There's some force that's moving through it, it's moving through our waking life. Our dream life are trajectories an and that force is. Not necessarily the

Diverse in terms of a conscious divinity, but I do believe, sort of an individual in collect divinity of some sense. I don't know how to describe it any clearer than that, but there's something in me. That's like me that you feel is like eternal, an outside of time and space yeah sort of that kind of yeah, but it doesn't have my ego. So the problem with like that's a funny thing, a about reincarnation, is like, like even guys will people room right. We kind of just such a great concepts like all I get to do it again like I get to, but the only thing you don't get to take with you is like your own ego right. So if you open up the your own knowledge that it's you yeah, but there I do sort of believe in this concept, the things are there is causation. I do believe someone in causation, not necessarily the ideal of like everything happens for a reason, although I've taken great solace in that when I need to, but I do believe in nothing, everything happens for reason. Whatever everything happens for cause,

so I do believe that there is causation, and I do believe, there's something in me that moves along but um but yeah. It's a weird thing where you kind of like come too and basically what it is like for me in terms of the bipolar: it's been there are periods of depression, their periods where life seems very gray and it's hard to get off the couch and it's hard to stop watching runs of shipmates wish. I could give you any of the devices of their like just stop. There even exist on the internet. They don't know it's just. You must have a video, I don't have any of its old Betamax tapes. Nothing come on, I'm sorry by good old Betamax. I am going to whatever C w studio one for when I go through my next hard time to get on a loop. It was Sony, Sony started, I'm going to so they later over them. There is no way there somewhere, no fault in a sarcophagus where they are just they're very present.

This is curing some form there so somewhere under yeah, there's somewhere under a sarcophagus, and it's going to release like the exorcist spirit. You know with someone else with them, but no there there is another periods of just sort of exuberance, I would say which are just feelings of and that's when it sort of snaps over 'cause the thing about the mania classical mania is like in a hypo mania just below the mania you're very creative. It's like a lot of throughout history, a sort of go through these people that are very creative, around hypomanic states and then they cross over into place really get kind of yeah. As for pound or something you know, I mean like create these great Kanto crazy. Like me, you know what crazy amazing books and then just like ended in a mental asylum like unable to so in that way. There are these moments where I have water, where I'm kind, not sleeping and not eating, and I'm just feel and with what I feel like is creative energies and then it kind of

this is over and I start not making sense. I start saying and doing stupid things having some really silly ideas about things. It would be a good idea, and in general, my friends around me- it usually takes them. You know like about a day to be like You know. I know you think this is a great idea, but I don't think that's such a great idea. Let's go check in somewhere yeah, but it, but it also helps it also kind of helps. If you have a support structure close by. I think that 'cause I've been around mental illness before and if you don't know, that's what it is, you not only aren't helpful, but you can't figure out what the fuck is going on and to have people around go. You know what I think this might be. That thing- and we should talk about it, yeah as opposed to just like dude, what the fuck, I think that's exactly it yeah. I think that's great and that's exactly it and in terms of people having people around you,

yeah, I'm more and more. I've depended on friends and family, and things like that. That's really nice, because it I know like when there's you know when, whenever I've had like really anxious like anxiety, yeah, really really deep anxiety, it does create this narrative that I know I've. Not this before, and it didn't turn out to be real. But this time of course, it's so easy to convince you know and being able to take a step back and go oh wait a minute yeah. I think this is that yeah. You know that being able to do that, emotions themselves are so hilarious. As soon as I mean it, emotions are so great because every time you feel bad ones, you're always like all God. I can't live with this one other second, and the other thing is like this idea. I, when I have some of so that's the motions I'm like not this. I could deal with anything, but it's just not this right. Now, they're very intense, strange things, emotions

I always go out like it yeah. That was the way there you always okay. It always goes away, yeah yeah, but yeah. I know it's been very important to have people run or Santa, and also just even people around just a whole list of level this again about communities where it's like to somebody to be like eat. Man like set like is go to sleep but they're, simple things that I feel like community things that maybe we did better and and different times, but like that as a community, we can do for each other that when people do for me, it it'll help me not have to go to that place right right. Well, and so are you how far and you are far into the book you and when do you think, that's kind of how God I don't know. Okay years, I don't know I'm supposed to do turning him manuscript and this year, but we'll we'll see, I I mean I'm right now, I'm just kind of pouring stuff out and kind of structure. You know putting it together as I go uhm it's one of these things where it's like really interesting. If you written, I did write a book, yeah yeah and it was it. I enjoy the process.

He felt oppressive in the sense that I always had a thing sitting in the back of my brain, where I could never relax every time like play Sunday. Oh, my god, I have to write one thousand yearly yeah. You know after right, sixty five thousand words three months before coming to do so yeah it does. It does feel like that. But again, if you can, if you can just kind of live in the present, go well I'll, just get one get done today and then you know like tomorrow, be tomorrow yeah I was very structured in the beginning and then I have sort of fallen off 'cause. I had to run around and do all this stuff, but it's also interesting because I mean it's like any creative process like it starts with a certain thing and my things start I was like ok, this is what it's going to be, I start getting into and I'm like none I feel like this is where it's going to be, and now it's like now. This is where it's going to be. So it's it's involving thing like an and its teaching. Me too, it's like you, know it's like interacting with the character to it's, like you start to teach each other things, but it's you know just about me. So it's like wild our system.

But it is what it is. You know you you're one of those amazing case studies of in the course of a weekend. Your entire life and career changed yet dramatic. People like, oh, my god, who is this guy where's he been, and then they start looking at though he was in. This is all right. He was that guy. He was there that long and order episode. He was in this movie right. You know, like you, have this foundation of work and it it took for twenty years or something to get to get to that yeah and then all the sudden it happens, and so like the week after stranger things drops are you feel like? Well, I think this is the thing I was chasing after. I don't know yeah. I guess so. I still don't really know everyone says, I'm this brilliant actor, I'm getting nominated for sure it's you know like I'm getting offers like this wasn't happening two weeks ago. It was. It was not happening. Two weeks ago, yeah, it's kind of

an amazing so but I didn't take shipmates down to ruin everything I mean yeah. It was an amazing turn of events. I still kind of wonder about it like even this idea of being because I've lived so long not being famous, is on the right man, so I still walk out thinking that no one's gonna recognize me. Look it's not a and like people recognize me all the time now, they're always like, and I'm like. Oh yeah, like it's a like something turned it was. It was weird I I'm still doing the same. Well, that's not exactly true. I was gonna, say I'm doing the same thing I was doing since I was five years old, but there was a reinvestment before stranger things where I really re invested in what is doing- and I do think my work was different because I doubled down on what how I could grow and you made a conscious decision at that point. Yeah I went back to acting class. I mean I like Webpack Dagnan Glass. I went it worked on this guy in a very different way than I had before. 'cause I had you know, I think all of us get to a certain level

holes in career in life where you just like. Ok, this is. Why is what I am like I and then movies too, and I was like supporting guy or whatever, but like nobody care that much and like in the studio cells with like moon over he's, fine, which of them and number seven on the coffee right in like yell at Denzel, Washington. First, you know, and- and I was I was fine with that- but it didn't have a lot of it was just you know. I I have a bit of a it's kind of a little bit of a angry clown to Maine. You know it was a little bit like. Little bit resentful that I couldn't tell my own story, because you must have in the amount of time in the amount of friends you have. You must have seen, oh god, dozens of your friends like their careers pop and be like I'm so happy.

I, like all my career, I mean these are the about New York too, is like, and I have friends like this, who were in New York now, like great actors, who you know who I've done plays with whose careers haven't had yes, but they're, just like great New York actors, and so I was that guy, like I was doing, plays with you, know: Ethan Hawke Billy Crudup, Martha Plimpton. Like he's, we have big, you know they're, always like oh you're, so great and I'm looking yeah thanks, guys tell Hollywood but like yeah, so it was. But then you know the funny thing was after you hit about thirty five, and it's not that way. I got very. I was like fine. I was like that's fine I'll, never be on the cover of a magazine or whatever, but I'm good

I just sort of work and do my thing and then this show came along and I read the script and I got the part- and I was like I was like, even if it doesn't amount to anything and not the results but like I owe it to this particular script, to actually go in a different place than done before, like I used to be willing to show up and look beautiful, be cool. Do a little work should say some lines do some stuff, but this I was like. I actually want to go to this place with this dude and make him like really broken and really specific. As of like who a guy would be, who lost his child at five to cancer was a man of justice, but who is in its five years out from that experience? So it's not like that. Guy wakes up sad anymore, he just as yeah it's empty and there's a there's a stick to that to where it's like you can't. Let people see that or they were all these things about the character that I wanted to craft that are very subtle things that you may not even

so when you're watching it, but it's like. I did a lot of work that I hadn't done before it was very different, so the fact that people like that was um like that, they aren't wrong to have not discovered me earlier, like I was doing something different and it's also a responsibility moving forward. Then, like I'm better, when I gone stuff very hard, I mean it is. It is that kind of funny thing about how we can over complicate things and we can bring in all of these. You know all this magical thinking and superstition is wide get this because of this or that or this or this is the story, and when you really, there it down. It's like well, if you put in hey eventually in my experience, yeah I'm fortunately is remote is been your experience as well. Sure, like you know it, you know. I ship mates, for example, did not put in a lot of work wrong that I mean but yeah, like you know, when

We all. We all tell ourselves stories that we need to navigate the world, and sometimes those stories put us at the center of this kind of victim controversy. Of like I'm, not getting these jobs. Are this because people, let me or I'm soccer the universe, is conspiring it's like the things that I have taken from a is like none of us are the significance. Yes, we're all insignificant and there is a great nobody really care for it in that you would think like. Well, that would destroy your ego and it's like well. It should destroy your ego because your ego, the ego decisions that you make, are usually the most deadly and the most painful and have the most painful consequences, because your ego is what you're putting on to the craps table and the you can't. Roll the dice are going to roll, and so you know like being able to take a step back from that very is very, it's been very, is very helpful, but putting in work is

you put in the work in you. Do you don't tell yourself those stories just go, I'm going to put in the work and I'm excited about this, and then you let it go. Whatever happens is going to happen. I'm either gonna have you know he bought the work itself pays off. They may not pay off directly in the way that you think it does, but I do believe that there's a cause and effect like it's kind of like going to the gym right. It's like, if you go to the gym every day, for five hours a day and lift weights invention, you will get big muscles yeah and it's the same thing. I feel like with creative work, where, if you put in the time and what time can be, I mean one of the greatest things was that there's a place called read about. Mark Rothko need that's but he's standing in front of a blank canvas, and the kid says like when you're going to start painting- and he goes, I am painting and he's just like sit there in front of blank canvas like, but that dilatory time I've actually putting in that creative work pays off. I think that's what I found with Hopper were like there were

is when I would just be alone in my room in a chair, doing my particular process for hours around him and to me it's very directly pays off in that particular perform. Well wait a minute, though, and it and again at because so if this is so fascinating to me, because you you were struggling with your own personal mental stuff, and yet you have to live inside you to live. Is this guy for uh? What I'm feeling all of these really fuckedup things? Is that making it worse or is that helping you some way exercise of your own stuff? I I'm I'm so curious to know how that effects your own person, because you can't just shake that off. No, you can't, but I would say it's the latter Ann. I would say it's catharsis and again it's that it's almost like what I just told people believe there are people who are suffering going through something believe their truth. It's almost like

a little guy inside of me who was like David, who is suffering this thing, and I used this artistic opportunity to believe him. I had a list, that's what made him so really because you're rooting it in these actually authentic things that you're feeling and that's what people are. You know people can read that ends in the in the in process of feeling, empathy and understanding, hopper there really understanding and being empathetic to David in a weird way yeah. But the lucky, the great thing, and this is something usually enters a movie for for two thirds of publishing this book, which is that the in the in hopper there's a mask right and and it's it's to me the greatest acting work. Is it's not autobiographical because the details of hopper very different from the details of me right, but it's very personal like I remember, Angelina, Jolie, who's younger, like around G or something she had some interviewer and she was annoyed at the end. She was, and she said something

if you want to get to know me watch my movies and I was like that's it like you know. You can understand more about me by watching my performances, then you can about me talking about myself because- and you know, good actors that are used, stuff. You can see it all over the place. You can see these aspects of them that are allowed to come, come out through this filter of character. But that are you know deeply. You know the deep deeply personal for and I think that's what you know. Great writers do as well or great painters, do as well. It's like you get to know who Jackson Pollock is by standing in front of one of his paintings. Look for better for worse, you get to know you get to know who you know. Saul bellow is by reading. If you're looking for you know like if you're asking those questions I mean I do feel like, but the and that the giver that's identity, it's like do you want to just know the personality quirks or do you want to like now

like to know these things that are you know these. These primal, weird feelings and who, who are they are they are? We are conscious choices. Are we these primal things that we're using personally? Are we are personality quirks like I guess, we're pastiche of all of them? But yes, it's a very you know you're getting to know one aspect of them they probably wouldn't reveal two at a cocktail party and how would they put that into words? I am this. There are words that it's like, no, you would have to because yeah, it's an expression, it creates an experience, but I do feel like and- and we circle back to, the heart social media, like none of that can be expressed in the hundred care. No and again you know like this is a broad sweeping generalization. This is not true for every situation, but in general I do feel like empathetic people will always ask questions first and arrogant. People will always give you their opinion.

First you know I mean it's like yeah. He is like. I don't you think, yeah, but I feel like I feel, like I give my opinion all the time, but we're all of those things so we're we're both empathetic and we were both there and it like. No one is any or the other, but I mean, but this idea of seeking I understand. I understand you have to ask questions, and so I guess it just means like be curious. Even when you, you know everything, because we don't you know like it, is in your search for spirituality in your search god wherever you are in that what that's like, although the question is the important part in and that's I think, a great that's what it's done. I will never forget that you said that cuz it's. It was like oh yeah, I didn't. Maybe that is part of the thing and we're trying to search for this result or anything. But it's not about that at all, because this is a part of a process and, and you know, and as you do In bigger things- and I know we did- we didn't talk about Hellboy at all, right away for life, but if you, if you, if you give me because it's coming

tune. You know with that. That lands in your lap, are you are you thinking like? Oh my god, yes of course there is it like. I don't know I like in my ready to do this. Do I want to avoid that yeah yeah yeah? No, no, let's get scared and yeah, don't know and don't know what, and then you know as the pitch got strong, then the script and all these ideas I was like you know I was like this- is really fun. First of all, the idea of making a monster movie true monster movie, where I'm wearing purse that x and like a whole thing is when you get to do that, I mean it's like yeah, it's like birth, like old school Frankenstein like it's, not CG. I it's like a complete outfit, a complete. I think it's it's incredible and he's a search upon it and

he's a character who there's all these crazy visuals but the core, but he's like a deeply flawed, complicated yeah, exactly and at its core. It's an identity, peace yeah. It's like I'm destined to bring about the apocalypse I'm destined and like let's just make that genetics. My genetics predisposed me to do this awful thing and everything in my our is trying to stem the tsunami, but my genetic you know imperative is to do that and like that, that's an engine play because I have I mean that's what I'm struggling with is this idea of biology verses conscious, will choice yeah, but even cop car yeah, so like the idea and the idea that comes on the film is that if I choose to go against and do the right thing, I'm actually going to have to sever like make a devil's bargain, which is like I'm actually after several something that's painful, yeah as opposed to something where it's like. Oh yeah, just give up that bad. It's like! No, no sexuality is embargoed like I'll, never be able to be in a relationship. I'll never be able to

monsters. Are my people mmhm humans are not that that's I mean that's another thing that I've found faster, I find is passing about three years. All dutch which they never talk about is like How does Superman and Lois Lane have sex the chamber that made him human yeah, so he could have a human being, so he could. He could be human and you know, but I think was it mall they had that whole thing was like. Oh, it would blast through someone like a shotgun. You know he's like he says, molecular structure. It seem all wrapped in a million years. Ok, I think I think it might have been more answer so yeah, but he doesn't Kevin Smith with that. If that's where they absolutely that's amazing, because I do it is something that I always wonder about and especially with him, because he does have like monster. Yeah hey and he must have monster attraction like he's a demon yeah, so he wants to like be with the bad girl. He doesn't want to be with that

and yet there's something in him that realizes so he does he cuts off a piece of himself. Can you choose against your nature? Can you choose against, like you said right, do you want to? Are you supposed to, but ultimately I think you can- and I think that is an important thing to know, especially with struggling with or whatever anyone is struggling with the it least? It's it's helpful to know like you can't you, you know you can you can choose yeah, you can choose yeah and then, but then for him to the question and this route to me, really anything about the phone to I'm. Talking about the film like it's, so please choice. I mean I made a lot okay about about your mates as Deadwood yeah, exactly yeah this year is as we progress through the seasons

the way you see my character develop on the screen. Want me to get on that cock, suck, Inboden dinner that mother fucking cock slugger over there examples by the interesting you bring up the awesome mate slide, because that came out of a discussion. I was having with a sociological treatise known as ship me, but I will go there Chris, because I have as sincere as any committed to that. Yes, the card. What was what was I saying we were yeah arbitrariness of good and evil in general is like one of the things of the valves. Kind of explores is just this idea that so he's a monster right and he himself is chosen to fight monsters for the good humanity. Why, like? so great about human beings. Human beings are just fight or just kill monsters, so their their own. You know killers,

Linda why why things on this arbitrary agreement are talking about exactly. If the demons were the protagonists eggs, then the humans would be like a fucking disease and he stuck in a movie called hell boy still fighting for human yeah and in the middle of the movie he kind of goes. Hang. Let's really think about this question, and that was one of the things I loved about. It was like Maybe we should do. Maybe I should I know everybody. Well, maybe I should do the opposite thing and so, You know it's like attention that runs a movie so yeah. I really liked all those different things and he's like a fun wacky like dark dude in this. You know, superhero world, where I yeah I like, and it's a horror movie like it was just really

and I think, as turned out is like it's, it's a really fun movie and it's different than its scrappy. It's got a scrappy monster feel to it that I really like yeah and I feel to get ready to you at some party or some and you're like oh, my god, this shooting good were you shooting, like proper, even tells about your area. They're like whoa. It was hard. I don't speak. I don't speak the language right and I was in makeup chair crazy people. I don't you know, I'm in the makeup chair at like three in the morning: everyday it was very hard very, very hard will just go home in my hotel, asleep for like six hours and I would just consume just chick in. I would just like I just said, and then I wouldn't eat the whole thing and they would pile up in my hotel room, just these old containers of moldy chicken.

So. Let me just told me: there's a moldy chicken and tons of cigarettes. It was just like yeah, it was it was held, by the way, bring it back to ship may bring it back to bring it back. I mean listen, I you know someone like. We would text every once in awhile. I think you might have changed your number. I didn't why I had to change it. Yeah, I'm sure you've got released. I change my instagram account to a business but I at know when it got out and it got released on the internet. I was When I was on vacation in Hawaii and I change it over there. I had the assistant change it over something and I left my phone in the room and I went out to the beach and then I was like I live. I have one I came back like an hour later and there was one hundred and fifty missed calls from

Wichita Kansas, like listen to a couple of them and clearly they were like big. Things fans, children, twelve year olds, who had found this number and they like, hi David, hi, hi, sometimes you one day, so it was sort of every everyone all the twelve rules listing now. The new number is, but you know, you're yeah. I hope you've been sending to a vacant taxes of the I'll give you. This is your when you're one of those guys are going to go, do what I want to hang out with that yeah. I think it was the same way about you. I you know like from this I think that I met you at that party. I just had this feeling of like I feel like we're going to be friends like you know when you meet someone and it's just like. Oh nice,

Thank you I like, when you do it's nice to see you and you go by bring me, never talk with that person ever again, pretty bad reason, but there's just but as soon as I met you, I think I said to my wife, like I can't believe he knows what shipmates is being said. I feel like I'm going to be friends with that, like there's just a certain thing, so it's well it's funny, because I'm the funny thing about fame later in life is that you do get to walk into this world of people who, like you, know like when I saw you on shipmates, doing those ridiculous things like I get that guy he's like that, guys, a special entity that I really get, and so the fact is, I had to do all this work. Chris I had to give this performance is opera You get to this point where I can give you my new number. If yeah we could tax about the expo is Kanye. Are you I use? If I, if I know my alcoholic right like I do your entire?

story is all about me. Those were so much fun to Blizzcon's were so much fun like that. It is such a wonderful community and to see it live there. I was afraid I would show up in people like fuck, you dude from tv, and it was the exact will see you suck 'cause. I appreciate and I respect them and I love them as a community, and it just felt great like it was great. I mean that's the thing that I get cheese. I go to cons, sometimes this stuff too, and, like I find that the you know, the people that show up with that enthusiasm and passion for the thing I like love them like a shameless you like love, and they where they would love you, because they just again everyone just wants to be noticed and appreciated and yeah I stood in so you know when you, when you show up- and it's not like me and them- and it's just like us, you know yeah

'cause we're nervous, like I right exactly, I doubt its community and uh yeah. So I would totally go with you sometime if you want to but all right. Well, all right! So thank you so much for being here, David Harbour. Thank you for having me. This has been a crazy discussion like Henry Intricate, very well very big, discuss what I appreciate that you were so open talk about it, because I know that helps you know, even if ' one person who doesn't understand what's happening here? Is this and it clicks like you? Have you will dramatically in the writing this book? Your much in the way you do with acting, but also because the book is real will dramatically change a bit for a substantial percentage of people's line. Ups, the amazing. If people are are you know we may have to help you with. That would be amazing. That would be it well and then much in the way that are you. But when we talk about our sobriety like it affects other people, it's like I'm not suffering through this. For no reason you know it's like other people got sick.

It basically said exactly yeah, but now I have to run God that someday we just hanging out. You know. No, I know George R Martin feels, oh god. I can't even right at two thousand pages Dragon saying like those guys like guys that people write books. It like it's amazing to me that to me is like yeah yeah, you really just have to be compelled to do that. Yeah yeah, it's tough, but uh. You know put in the work. It's all about the process within the question the question go and uh, understand yourself and others love it. Alright, thanks man, the end. You podcast number nine or with David Harbour. The word salad wrap today is a little

have a correction on my part an if anyone who's studied a lot of self. However product he was probably shouting at the podcasts. When I was, I don't know, listen, sometimes the brain. Doesn't pull up facts and things the way that it should so I was talking about this idea of seek first to understand, seek first understand, and I couldn't remember like what book did that come from where they come from, and I said David Allen. David Allen, of course, is the getting things done. Guy Stephen Covey, was from the seven habits of highly effective people, and it's actually not even it's. Not even the first one, the first habit of of I highly effective people is being proactive. It's habit number five all right seek first to understand and then to be under stood. So that's the idea seek first to understand and then to be understood and as Doctor Stephen R Covey says, if I were

summarized in one sentence, the single most important principle, I've learned in the field of interpersonal relations. It would be seek first to understand, then to be understood because it was really kind of I think, conditioning ourselves. If we lead soul, social media based lives to just sort of blurt. What we think people and not a much to communicate and communication is an exchange of ideas, not just telling people what our ideas are and I'm sure it listed we're all guilty of this year in a conversation someone's talking at you, but it is we'll just be going by Adam LAB wow. I bought a lot because what you're thinking is what you're going to say next and thought about was to what it is that they are saying, and it's actually a principle that has influenced how I do the podcast 'cause people say well, why don't you know? Do you prepare anything? And I say no, because if I'm prepared like in the in the sense of if I have like

questioning that I want to hit someone with, then I'm not listening to them. You know it's not a conversation, then it's more of an interrogation and I'm not open to listening. If I'm thinking about what I want to ask or say, rather than just letting it unfold in the moment, so I think it's a community skill that, regardless of where we're at in our culture, should be cultivated because is wildly important to exchange ideas and because you know each individual person and you might have a lot of really basic ideas. But if you only rely on yourself, then you know for information, then you're in kind of a cul de sac, urine sort of a little human, an idea called the sack which is not open to cross pollinating with other ideas. Other concepts, other people learning how to be flexible learning. How to compromise- and you know I think we are also not conditioning

the culture to compromise, everything's, all or nothing. You know something you know we can get things suited to our taste, so specifically so it's such a granular level that we are not conditioned to learn how to compromise. If something is not one hundred percent how we it's like our sworn enemy and that's not healthy, because the world will not always give us a hundred percent of what we want to. We have to learn how to deal. You know. We can't be so inflexible that we can't you know a be able to process things that are not exactly a hundred percent or specifications we need to learn to co exist with people. We need to learn to exchange ideas. We need to learn to be, you know, wrote roommates of humanity, I guess lack of a better term, and part of that is learning how to understand. First, even when someone says something that you don't like, or someone says something that it doesn't make any this to you, why did they say that

they having a weird day, do they have different ideas from you? That might broaden your perspective? Even if you don't agree with what they're saying, is it possible that you could try to understand it anyway, so at least you can figure out where they were coming from, because you know it's one thing to not agree with people, but another thing to dehumanize them, and I think when we put up walls- and we imprison ourselves within our own egos- were not open to the shared human experience that we're really supposed to have. So You know. I just think it's a better way to live. If we can do it not saying I'm perfect at it, and I'm not saying you know you know we a lot of times. We teach the things that we need to learn. You know what I mean. So I I

challenge. You us a challenge us to learn how to understand more than trying to jam our opinions down people's throats, and I I did I I and I did. I did further kind of expand on that in the park as rice, and I think you know, empathetic people always ask questions first and we get overtaken by arrogance. We blurt out what we think first and we've Laura is a company that we blurt out what we think and then we take a step back. We might go actually, if I'm really being us. Yes, I didn't really know everything about that thing. This property out, I just wanted to blurt it out to look smart or to just you know, mark my opinion territory or to you know, to protect the fact that I really don't know what I'm talking about, or maybe it was just an ego thing or even if I am right, maybe there's other perspective that I hadn't considered. Even if mine is right, who knows but uh

is you know it is a challenge because it's it feels better to us to just you know, surround ourselves with ourselves as the famous yes song. Don't surround yourself with yourself, so that's it. That's a little word. Salad. Redford today seek first to understand. I apologize doctor, Stephen R Covey, for not being able to conjure that the book the seven habits of highly effective people and and what are the seven habits? Well just tell they are now and then maybe you'll look up the book later. Have it won't be proactive habit to begin with the end in mind, habit three put first things: first, habit, four think win win habit. Five seek first to understand, then to be understood, habit six center, just synergize habit, seven sharpen the saw. So if that it titillates you in anyway, then you will go, look up the seven habits of highly effective people and maybe

will highly effective person. But even if you don't totally fine, just do your best to understand, be a good citizen of the world and not just for the world, but also for yourself, because it will increase your wisdom and and and give you more value to you as well. So there you go. That's it! That's the word. Salad wrap. As always. I appreciate you and thanks for listening I'll, see you in your ears next week, id ten t scanning complete, enjoy your burrito