Welcome to the I d, ten d, podcast number, one thousand ha, it's a big number, that's an m, if you're an ancient Roman that is in them. I'd, say this because we literally just left Rome, so everything's, Roman right now in my world. But it is amazing if you ever get a chance to go. So if you are not maybe going to go to Rome, but you feel like a maybe I can go to Nashville or SALT Lake City I'll be doing stand up there at the end of May in Nashville and the following week, and it's all like city. If you go to I d ten d dot com, you can get tickets and info for that will not be doing stand up in Rome anytime soon, your pal, probably tell palm Umentary on a

unable ono banner and ash stand up hello. He, I think I'll just do it in English. It's good to an English about that. Also in English is the cork board, which you can send your corporate item to events and id ten t dot com, if you're in the eighteen, two community in your the thing, that. You would like to promote out how about this one farm, animal rescue and rehoming movement is an animal sanctuary in Alberta, Canada, they've dozens of farm animals who were once abused, neglected or destined for meat farms they recently suffered terrible fire and unfortunately, some of the animals lost their lives and their barns were destroyed and damaged. That's terrible, along with being devastated over the loss of life farm which farm animal rescue and re movement now needs to

a new barn for the animals if you would like to donate or find out more info visit, farm rescue, DOT, Org, and that is far with two r's in the middle, and I wish you all the best of luck for that. Also Carmen rights I've been an artist since I was a child and have turned it into a small Etsy shop where features a handcrafted, decorative and personalized wood signs portraits and paintings for all budgets. Commission pieces are also available. Listeners may even find some artwork work, the walking dead characters. They may visit California crafted dot com to shop this so thing for everyone. Well done carbon. This episode is Moby, who the first time he was on the podcast totally blew me away. This

years ago. He came back again and blew me away again, because you know we, I I'm so I'm always so end, just sort of looking back at thousand episodes, I'm so honored that people are willing to just open up open up about their flaws of one up, but they're in securities open up about their stumbles, because it is the the sort of them. I don't know the the grout that binds humanity together, and so you know this coming back from struck

overcoming flows over coming in securities, overcoming whatever it is, or whatever it's kind of you know it meeting the things are rosy all the time and here's how you dealt with it is this part of the human experience, and I appreciate the people are so authentic when they come on and willing to share nuggets of wisdom that hopefully benefit from I do, but I always try to take mental notes when I'm doing is when I listen to them back then the coming on forget about this in African. With this never got about this so I hope it provides not just entertainment but also some edutainment for you, some mental health edu you

Moby's promoting his new memoir, then it fell apart, which is available. Now you can get it now. You can do it. Why you're listening us in your ears? You can go, get it somewhere online or in a real life bookstore. If you still go out in public, not everyone does anymore, but if you do, then you were able to do that or you could buy it on Amazon, while you're in public, who knows your options are not unlimited. I'd, say: they're relatively limited, there's only a couple of ways: you could do it, but you do have a choice: how you're going to acquire this So that's it. This is the id ten t, podcast episode. One thousand with Moby returning to the podcast, and here it is initiating- I delete empty protocol

when we walked in you were talking about number one: hey. You almost bought the bare skeleton which are we at least yeah we're recording, but we can add anything out that you know I'm in we're talking about the bare skeleton which is delightful. Have you considered, because you said you wanted to get it and put it in an apartment that you had at the time yeah

I lived on Mott ST and I had this little apartment. This is, I guess, the early 90s to the mid 90s and I walked by that store, but they called evolution, evolution and they were had an early location. Where was it was, I think, in the e village before they were in Soho and they had this every time I walk past it. I would see this giant. Ten foot cave bear scale, and I was like well I'm a vegan. Am I allowed to have a cave? Bear skeleton? like well, it did die sixty thousand years and I just thought it would be the funniest thing in the world to like 'cause, I lived in a small apartment for someone to come in and see ten foot tall cave, bear skeleton right and then they moved to so poetic still kept seeing it, and I just sort of overtime forgot about, is what made me happy to see that Yes, you have he's been mister now it. That is an interesting. Ethical dilemma because it is like well, it didn't die for the purp

of this. It just was on earth. Did they get lived in nature and it had a good live life? Do you would you would have to put up a placard spine? Your friends like no? No, this is very old. This did not just happened. This was sixty thousand years. It is like a little like coffee out, like no actual cave bar K bears harmed in the making of that's right. That's right! That's right! So I have a question yeah, who I think I asked you this last time. 'cause you've talked to a lot of people. Yes, who's been tearable. That is not what I was expecting. I don't have I mean I would in the almost thousand episodes we've done. No one has been straight up terrible. There was one person that I got too nervous around and it did the the didn't go great. Can you say

a person who is Harrison? Ford? Okay, but it wasn't his fault he's. Also. I remember seeing him on David Letterman years ago. Yes, and it was comical because apparently Harrison Ford who's like to pose a very nice man. Yeah is notoriously v, most on call double person to interview like if you, if I'm sure this is on you tube, it's David Letterman interviewing Harrison Ford, Harrison Ford just wouldn't respond yeah. I was so shy. Uncomfortable he's, I think, there's a into that and I think there's also a bit of like I do think it's kind of entertaining to him to kind of fuck with people a little bit and if I had been calm and been able to handle it, it would have been great, but I couldn't I was just too nervous and I couldn't I just could not my brain to roll with it, and so I just I just collapsed imploded in word and but you know

really did was really totally. It was totally me if I had been better but but, as I said before, I was so thankful for because it was such learning experience because after that happened, and that was two thousand and twelve, I was now afraid of anyone. Ever again it was sort of like getting thrown off the horse and being like. Well now, I'm not now that that that's what happened in a parade of anyone on the podcast? No okay, because I mean in life I'm scared of everyone. Well, yes, the world is a good my place, but I mean like one on one: the the concept of sitting down and the people that I'm fans of or nervous around, like I'd die. I was able to it, got me over, so I'm actually really thankful that it that but other than that there hasn't been any one was like god damn? It can't believe that shit, we've been extraordinarily lucky and has anyone stood out as being surprisingly great, so there are so many people that it just is just people that I wouldn't have. I didn't know much of

there's this actor named Michael Ironside, who you know he's played a bad guy in so many great so my films, and he just ended up being this incredibly thoughtful. Can completive, philosophical, like well rounded wonderful man, but it's kind of one of my favorite things about the podcast- is not just talking to people that I'm already a fan of, but talk, two people that I don't know that well and being completely blown away by them, because I'm constantly I'm basically just trying this podcast is an excuse for me to tap people for knowledge and to try to learn from them and I'm always curious. And so then that begs the question: if you've done, one thousand of them Generally speaking, what have you learned? I've learned that there are no shortcuts to success. I've learned that people who are even if your last name is

fashion. Even if you're I mean yes, that's true, I will say the thing that I will say about them in particular, is even if you don't like what they do like they we have figured out some way to maintain it, and that's that is that's hard to do. Yeah. In the initially they you know there were questionable things about how that all have actually know very little about yeah. I just have this vague idea that somehow Oj Simpson's lawyer and former Bruce Jenner are involved in the rise of the Kardashians and I'm like so that's either true or I was on masculine years ago and somehow I just envisioned it just like. I don't know Phillip K, Dick style, dystopian future, where like we have a reality. Stars are president and Oj Simpson's lawyer led to a woman being large enough

few maligning being married to a famous rapper. I don't know if the, if the, if what her father did had much to do with the six like with their success, I it was. There was a lot of road in between those two events, but stay out of popular reality show and you know, and they catapulted it into a lifestyle brand, but but in general people who are successful put in the work they put in the time they fall and get up and they fall and get up and they falling it up. But it's not accidental. It's funny that you say, because I'm from putting out a memoir, my second memoir, because I'm a crippling nurses it all fell apart is it was co, is it then it felt that but yeah, then, if I'm doing a talk like an interview, talky thing that middle age guys do in New York and it's at the Rubin Museum? It's like a Buddhist Museum, Tibetan Buddhist Museum and they

wanted to know what like, if I had to give the talk Athene. What would it be? And I was like how about the power of failure? Yeah and like uh asian ship to failure is something that very rarely do. People talk about, but the truth is everybody fails and how you respond to failure that sort of determines what Hap, like your your long term chances have anything some semblance of six yes, that's the other thing that has been a common thread and anyone who is achieved any degree of happiness or success. Forever and there's really the sort of there. Kind of uh. Oh there's a stoic idea that Louise, the way that I interpreted is that failure doesn't really exist in the way that we think of failure, because it's not like an end point,

It is basically a building block in your journey and what you do with it, you know determines what you become yeah I mean for some people. I think it. It is an end point right. It's almost like the people, because in the course of my life, I've failed countless times, but I almost didn't have like the sense of shame that would prevent me from like. Retreating right. You know it was like. Oh, I failed. I guess I'll fail in public some more and I'll humiliate myself, because also I don't know what else to do. It's not like, like I never had a plan b, it wasn't like well if this doesn't workout I'll, go back to being a cpa, you know nothing wrong with Cpas, but that wasn't your calling. I was a college dropout who studied philosophy like I had absolutely no other skills. So when failure happens you like well, I guess I failed now we just have to keep working and hope that maybe somehow things workout right well and it's

So the other thing that you talked about when we can't when he came in and I'm wearing, I'm wearing and an ACDC shirt, but it's alternating current direct current shirt with Tesla, Tesla and Edison on it. An Edison has the well. I figured out one thousand ways to not make a light bulb. That idea is like. Oh, you failed one thousand times. No, I learned one thousand ways to not make a light bulb and then we were talking about Tesla, and then you mention an author who had written a book series F, Paul Wilson, F, Paul Wilson, that sort of explained that Tesla created this misanthropic character of Tesla to come something up right, yeah, because I don't want to it's a spoiler alert. Yeah all will f. Paul Wilson has written, probably thirty, some odd books all based on this idea that there's a secret history to the world. It's almost you know the concept of managed. She is the minute she enters a mill. It's light versus dark, okay,

my feet, someone is actually smart. Did you hear me say manage isn't like that's actually not would have like anything to do with manages and but the idea that there's this sort of like dialectic between light and dark and in the F Paul Wilson world the light side is sort of disinterested or uninterested in the dark side loads us, the dark side is truly evil than light sides, just kind of indifferent right and in this work without giving too much away the most recent F Paul Wilson book Tesla, somehow unlocks a portal to the darkness, and I was just giving everything away. I'm sorry! Well we'll see if you're listening, I kinda just gave away. I can cut that out. No, no, it's it's still worth for all the books are worth reading like well, but the reason that I brought it up is in this all: does loop back around is even thinking

but this 'cause it's almost sort of romanticized in a lot of new, particularly in a lot of nerds. I think it's that sort of tortured, Tesla, ideal idea of you know he's he's both brilliant but he's just barely holding on by a thread. Think a lot of people feel that way you know, and so I think they identified, and they also probably identify with him, is like he's alone without their make it and here's Edison this corporation and he's fucking with them and probably take ideas, and so but the truth is it also Westinghouse who is an investor in Tesla. I think also sort of to trade him, and then there was a Natalia inventor who also sort of stole some of his ideas not to malign italian inventors at all, but not Marconi. Mark. I think it was my marconi, I think so, who also potentially sort of violated some of Tesla's patents, yeah and yeah so intensely died. Far, as I remember, like penniless vaguely almost homeless right, you know. Yeah I mean I I

you know, the thing is the thing. That's interesting when you think about history, is we can't really track the news that's going on today in terms of like, what's real, what's biased, what's a cover up? What's it like and it's it's impossible. So when you think about how do we know exactly? We have no clue, you know. Maybe all those things were true. Maybe they weren't, That was a version or a perspective of what happened so it just like. Not only do I kind of think about like I, know what's real anymore in terms of like what we're being delivered, but how do even though historically what's accurate and you're right and what's really disturbing about that is that people are now or they have been for quite a long time willing to go to war and to kill based I'm sure you, like someone will say well. Jesus said this: I was like Jesus didn't write anything down

eight years after the night until anyone road anything that was a very he was a great minds. I have very bad note. Taker just did not want to take notes, and I had some friends who are arguing about like the Buddhist Sutras right like what did the how to say did I was like historically, nothing was written down. It was attributed to the Buddha for four hundred years right until after he died right, like so you're really you're ready to get in a fist fight over here, say: yeah yeah. I remember my first year, my freshman year at Jesuit Catholic School in our theology class, the priests chicken remember his name, but he basically we played a game of telephone through the whole class where he said something to the person that is run from work for seat and then it was passed all the way a under the class of like you know, twenty five, kids or whatever, and by the end of course it was a distorted, different statement and he was like if we couldn't.

Agree upon what I just said in this classroom, you know it's like you: kinda have to take everything with a little grain of salt, because yeah, like you, said, a lot of oral traditions. You know not just the entity but with all history for as like we, it is the permission, can change to the wrist through the receivers. It makes me think of life of Brian golf course. You know like blessid. Are the cheesemakers support? Is he talking about, like dairy producers of all star, but it looks kind of loose specter. This idea that you know again the, people who have really blown me away. Don't even to take that really seriously they do necessarily try to find happiness or validation? They fight the urge to find validation outside in the external world, which is very thematic? I think to the book that yeah, you've just written and so that

you know those lessons I love hearing them over and over again it never gets redundant to me because this life is just a process of get a falling down and reminding yourself and it never. It there's just not a goal line, and hopefully I mean this might seem trite, but hopefully learning in the process. That's that's what you want, so this book done it fell. Apart is based around that idea because similar to assume a lot of people when I was growing up, I assumed, like I grew up very very poor scared, ashamed, insecure, and I saw it like ok at some point in my life. If I have success, if I have some fame, if I have a record ill. If I can go on tour and play in front of people who might even know my music, you know everything will work out and I'll be the happiest person in the world. And then I don't want to answer. Qamar more flies: reverse, but the universe gave me everything I wanted times ten

thousand sort of say like ok. Here you go, and so then I found myself like they're sort of like this one center point in the book where I was in Barcelona and I had just one, I feel like such a douche bag, saying this by just one like my fifth or sixth MTV award. And I was on tour playing in arenas and playing headlining festivals and I've never been more depressed, and I was at the top of this fancy hotel called the arts hotel and I drank myself into a stupor, because I am in a I haven't had a drink in ten years old, timey bottom alcohol, alcoholic you some in this three bedroom, penthouse suite of this hotel, my neighbors on this floor Madonna Jon, Bon Jovi and P Diddy sat still his name, and I do I was blind drunk and I was walking around this hotel, suites sobbing trying to

find a window that would open up wide enough. I could kill myself, but from my end, so that's that's. What like. Materially and on the surface, things had never been better. Like I had my own tour bus, I had an assistant whose only job was throwing parties for me and I ever- and this was all- and I think that's where the despondency came from you know, because when you spend your whole life thinking, future circumstances are going to fix all of my problems and then you arrive with those future circumstances and your problems haven't they're, not only not fix they've metastasized yeah and you don't know what else to it's like. Well, I don't know what else to shoot for 'cause this was. This was supposed to be the magic bullet yeah and I'm out, and you start panicking. 'cause you're, like oh, my god, like I don't yeah like you said, I

don't know what else to do. You know like if this didn't work. I've spent my whole life pursuing something and I got it and it didn't work then what well? I think we you know people, We need a purpose, I think, through whatever sort of evolutionary trick. We've need a purpose to survive because we have to contribute because survive as a community as a species. You know, and so when you and so a lot of people like when they retire. You know like well what do I do like? What's my purpose? People need a purpose and if your purpose, was to achieve all these things and that's what you set out to do when you did it, you have no purpose left, so you leave an empty air. It's like this didn't work and I'm even emptier, and so that how I would love to hear about how you dug out of that

to figure out, hopefully that you know the purpose comes from within and not outside well, and this might seem a little vague or tangential, but hopefully it will lead to something relevant in nineteen. Ninety two, I went to a vegan China restaurant in New York and I ate purple eggplant and it made me sick. I have never eaten purple eggplant again which might seem sort of irrational, I give one bad experience, maybe doesn't make sense to spend. What's your life staying away from it right, but alcohol, drugs and the pursuit of fame and celebrity, I bottomed out thousands of times and kept going back. It was like eating purple, eggplant, thousands of times and every time you eat it makes you sick, but you still keep eating that stupid, purple, eggplant and so

Eventually- and this I don't, you know, don't sound like too much of a middle aged, sober cliche, but eventually and not surprisingly, I really bottomed out. I got Experian. The hotel in Barcelona rose like drunk and despondent trying to kill myself like I saw another six years to go before I finally admitted it wasn't working. Then we just study pause right there, because I want to hear what's going on in your head, if you, if you can remember, so you're looking for a window to jump out of and they all only open the crack was so disappointed, thankfully only open to crack stupid hotel. So what have do you drink yourself into an unconscious state or like how do you, can you one from that points and what? What are you thinking at the time on what date? And I assuming that a lot of people who have a degree

the of sort of like external success will relate to this, like you sort of think to yourself like ok. Well, I'm despondent in this hotel suite So maybe the answer is to have a different hotel. Suite you know the cliche is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic and I'm like well. This current assistant is throwing me good after show parties, but if I had a different assistant or a second assistant, they throw me better after show parties, if doing one hundred dollars worth of cocaine every night. Maybe the answer is to do three hundred dollars worth of cocaine, everything so double and triple down. You just keep yeah and then like until you've in my case and a lot of people's cases you. Finally, are presented with this overwhelming, like abundant slash portfolio of wouldn't that you can no longer ignore you suddenly realize, like oh,

get. My friends have alienated my family. I can't go on a single date without having panic attacks on having fifteen drinks tonight, I'm spending three hundred dollars a day on cocaine. I sleep till five hundred in the afternoon and I wake up depressed that I'm still breathing like ok, that's evidence that things are not working out. Well, you're, lucky that still even at that point, that you were able to to have that realization. Well. Well, I was all resentful of the people who died like as people around me started dying of like alcohol. It you know like he, Roger and DJ. Am all these people just started dying and every time I heard about a public figure dying of alcohol or drugs. I was J yes, that it wasn't you yeah, it's like come on, like Heath Ledger like I was drinking, doing more drugs and he was like like. Why did the universe mercifully take him and leave me here? Well then, what I think some of this success depression also probably has something to do with you know:

low self esteem. I say this is someone who has been through this to where you feel like I don't deserve any of this. I don't deserve any of it like there's a guilt to you, success was that an element at all will everything- and forgive me if I just realized what potentially inappropriate analogy this might be, but it's like Citizen Kane, but we think a poster downstairs. Okay, I didn't I didn't. I didn't know if your wife, finally from a fine with it yeah, it's fun, obviously have a long time ago. Obviously the great granddad didn't feel that way. No and you know I mean look, you know or are under a bridge. You know Orson Welles, just a hanky director trying to take a very nice man down is just trying to live a life yeah a

no one ever again so yeah so Citizen Kane? Broadly speaking, it's about the idea that, like but there's a childhood something happens in childhood is traumatic and then you spend the rest of your life trying to fix it without addressing it. You know, but until you address childhood trauma until you address, you know the sadness and the broken this that compels you to go out into the world and to try and conquer the world. You'll never have a moment. You'll have some moments. Three hundred am in a strip club out of your mind on cocaine with your new best friend brandy, the stripper. Then you might have that moment of happiness, but certainly not sustainable. Well. Pleasure is not happiness. That is another interesting to your point about purpose. I completely agree and it's funny 'cause like when I was bottoming out as an alcoholic. I would read

it's by the Dalai Lama by other spiritual leaders, and they would say that, like the key to happiness, is selflessness and service, and I was like nope nope. I do not want that to be right, like I really profoundly hope that you were, It's got to be all about Maine 'cause. I want the key to happiness to be abject selfishness like and then only like over the last ten years of sobriety and some sort of like cliched middle age, guys southern California introspection. I have realized that like so there right, like materialism, can be fine. Materialism doesn't fix problems. No, no, of course, that an that kind of abject selfishness. If you spend a lot of time with yourself and focused on yourself, then

that's what you have and it's very lonely you can be very you can be very lonely. So I'm sure there is just devastating loneliness 'cause this period, where you were jealous, that you were not being somehow taken from your narcotic exploits. How do you finally go? Wait? A minute? That's I think. Maybe that's not right like how do you do you get out of that 'cause, I'm sure there are people listening who go holy shit. I complete identify with that. I feel empty. Nothing makes me happy how to how can I begin to dig out of that sh I mean I can't presumptuous. Lee speak to other people's experiences on what I can say is like there's a process and it exists in literate. Like it's. A narrative. Trope is like everything you have is sort of either

taken away from you or you realize it's not working. You know I mean this is going back to like even like the greek tragedies, although they tended not end very well so and then it's that it it sort of speaks to something in our very presumptively, broadly speaking, our culture and our species, where the thing that we hate more than anything is evidence, you know we all collectively and individually. We love magical thinking. You know we love pretending that will never die right. We love pretending that you, the spiritual and selfish. We love pretending that you can eat Mcdonald's and be healthy. You know, we love pretending everything. You know you can smoke cigarettes and drink two six packs of beer a day, but then, when you're diagnosed with cancer, it's unfair right. You know like whether it's karma

consequences evidence whatever you call it it's it's when you're forced to accept that actions have consequences right. You know and then you're like. Oh okay, I spent my whole life longing for days, a Makina interventions. You know, and I've done a whole life thinking that materialism will fix me and then you finally admit it. Doesn't. Then you like, okay, what next and so to your point, the question of like that person who's wondering what's next. It's hard to say this with again like sound like too much of a cliche, but it's like health service, humility, community purpose. Spirituality, like really like the humble things that actually are attainable or achievable, almost everyone right, which is kind of liberating in a way to say like most people like,

Now, I'm sure someone who's listening who's like struggling miserable in jealous of people have more success and more stuff than them, and you can say to them like actually like the keys to the kingdom are within you right. You know like what you want good chance already have right like it's. Is pudding your attention on that and cultivating that stuff rather than thinking. Oh, the only way I'll be happy is I have seven Grammy nominations and am dating a real, the tv star and like having sex with her sister at the same time right like yeah. Well, I think it is this magical thinking it's it's also habitual thinking and so if someone. I think for people trying to dig out of it, the thing to realize is that it does take work. It takes a good support structure it figuring out a way to believe that you're worth it and that it's possible and it's a process and it's not going to you- might have been a

Tiffany, but it's not just going to change overnight. It's like again it's that process of like getting up falling down, getting up falling down, getting up falling down and then I'll at a certain point. The muscle is strengthened and you have. You can feel that you've that you're on a different path than you would have been and the more time that passes you can feel the distance between the divergent paths and that's where it gets. Where you really can feel it and it starts to get like you know a lot easier, but it's just one of the. This is why I'm like I'm. Learning I'm learning piano at my age, because I just want to see a physical representation of incremental efforts and how they pay off at a certain point. Yet as it as sort of a a metaphor for the rest of my life, I mean this is also similar to that blew my a super

Klay shade version of that is yoga. I started doing yoga ten years ago when I first are doing it. I could barely like get my hands down like if I, if I bent over, I could like sort of touch the bottoms of my knees right and I was terrible at it. And now I'm not a great yoga person, but like I can do it and it's so nice to be like. Oh, if you apply time effort and will We can change things yes and you're not concerned about the results you're just earned about showing up every day and being a part of the process and knowing that it is a leading somewhere and it the that. I think that being able to accept incremental change sets the foundation for more lasting change, because you can not, it is just it is impossible. I'm can I can. I can save them

sybil, but it is unlikely that on a Monday you go I'm gonna change my entire everything in Tuesday I quit this. I quit that I quit this and now I'm perfectly habit. You know like it just doesn't. You just have to accept that it's a process and be at a five by the fact that you know you're making healthier choices for yourself and selfless choices for the worlds and that and that that sets you that such you on the path yeah. But it's very hard to see when in it. As I'm sure you remember and yeah, it's that word in word. Hi and you are edie- were yeah sort of like a desensitize through exposure, yep and sometimes that's hard with ourselves like like looking back it my life and like when you're in the middle of something and you're like your quotidian circumstances, are terrible. But

where are your quotidian circumstances so they're familiar right? What can help is to look- and this is both sad but helpful, like how many public figures are almost like doing the work for us. You know a friend of mine is making a documentary about me, which is also I feel like a complete narcissist, like I'm here, to talk about my second Memoir Anna Documentary being made about me, like that's, ok, but there's this one Remember having there's an interview from talking at some of these things and the director cuts away to some public figures for whom their pursuit of fame didn't quite work out too well, like he cuts to Ernest Hemingway can cause to Kurt Cobain. He cuts to Dj A then he cuts to Michael Jackson. He cuts to Chris Cornell. He like it just on and on all these people who are like smart, sensitive, creative people probably assumed that success an matx. Really well being we're going to fix things and we sort

look at them and be like. Oh, it didn't work for them, but even like we live in LA like how many people do we experience or come into contact with, who still think that, like it's gonna workout, if they just have the perfect, like materia the portfolio those people didn't know how to do it right. But when I do it, it will be perfect, like it's like, like Homer Simpson, when he and Abe Simpson Start, I forget what they start like an aphrodisiac. And yeah yeah yeah that were there doing there. There are like on the road selling medicine yeah, the yeah and homer at one point. Mother put put it there bottling this aphrodisiac homer says you know a lot of people, have failed with their get rich, quick schemes, but I'm sure I'm going to succeed and get rich and quick. We all everyone thinks that their the exception, like they are the one who

kind of like health like people always say like. Oh well, my new, this lady, who lived to be one hundred and ten who smoked cigars, made nothing but bacon. I was like you really going to base the form the exception liar yeah. Well, that's the thing is that we want to be outliers, and so we, you know we try to create this confirmation bias loop on outlier information which knows no reasonable statistician would do I mean they think, I'm pretty sure they tend scarred the ally research like well. That was a an anomaly that was an anomaly like here is the, and, if you give you consider yourself is like I'm probably in the middle of the pack, but no one wants to think of themselves as being in the middle of the pack. It's the bell curve right, you know, and we think of the bell curve of like human, like the consequences of us are right in the middle like if we eat garbage food will get fat and say you know, if we

Our cruel and terrible the people around us they will eventually get tired of us and we'll be sad and lonely You know it's like sure. There are those people on the like that. One person on the extreme who, like eats bacon everyday smoke, cigarettes and live to be one hundred and ten years old, but, as you said, like really like when you're looking at ninety nine point, nine hundred and ninety nine percent of the rest of that curve, you know the statistical sample that model. Doesn't then why in the world, would you what give it any credence? You're, essentially trying to live your life, but by the Guinness book? Yet click with the support of the hit. The exceptional example and you should look at the data, but it's that people want to look at data that essentially just supports this kind of a magical thing magical at the magical. Thinking, that's what we that's what we need to believe in that moment, but I guess it's just sort of resetting. You know resetting those per.

Editors and figuring out, you know hey. Maybe I can just trying figure out how to be happy now, but if you hadn't been through all of that, then you may. Be with them in the. Let me phrase it this way: do you think you have experienced more joy since then, then you would have. If you had just lived a very kind of you know even keeled kind of flatlined lifelike. Are you appreciative of the experience you have because now you're Your joys and successes are so much more appreciated. Does that make any sense yeah like bottoming out the sense of the word you know like as a human being as an alcoholic as a drug addict as a man as a musician like every way in which you can bottom out. I I sort of bottomed and that's what I'm most grateful for, and I know someone listening might think like

yeah, you don't a you, don't mean that or be your utterly dilution, but, like I truly like because like for example, there's always like that question, I'm sure you've been asked a lot of times like if you could change anything in your life. What would you change in your past yep there's like nothing, even the most degrading terrible stuff. It's like for me. If I'm happy with the perspective that I have now not even the life I have, but just simply the world view. In the perspective I have every experience. I've had has contributed to that right. So how can I resent anything if I'm grateful for the perspective that I have right and it's like it's not like you're eighty and then when I just figured it out goddammit, you know you got tons of time? You know in theory, you got tons of time and, if not again like it's, it's I mean

enters. A sort of tangential. Realm of discussion is like is death, like our relationship to death is so weird cuz, it's literally it's the only absolute given in our lives like there's, no gas I'll be alive in one second from right. You know, but yet I go my life all those are alive, assuming like somehow we're going to be the ones to cheat death right. You know right. I was actually talking to an ex girlfriend of mine and the question was: if you could, how would you like to die right and my life to answer? one sort of inspired by um Fahrenheit, four hundred and fifty no, no what's the book. I can't remember which one I don't know: man, alcohol for heating, can't remember white, my sinking of fair, it's not Ray Bradberry. It's Kurt Vonnegut's, slaughterhouse five got it. That's why I got confused because it's the both of

sure that the other day yeah there's a five and also in slaughterhouse five, like you know, he has these two multiple timelines and I like wild one perfect way to die. It would be like in a huge glass ball filled with breathable liquid at the edge of the universe, as our universe transforms into something else like. So that answer. That's one way, yeah as the universe start folding in back on itself right and I'm the first thing to be destroyed, like in say a billion years, yeah yeah yeah, that's one way to go. The other is somehow in service of something like hey. I don't want to die is like comfortable, and in I sleep when I'm eighty five, cold, like I'd rather die tomorrow, saving something helping something then die comfortably thirty forty years from now

that is, I've, never heard. Anyone say that before and I'd never really and I'd always had a kind of opted for the comfortably. In my sleep thing, I I'm not saying anything wrong with that answer but like if God came down and said you got a choice, I it ninety in your bed surrounded by is that you love and some people that you like comfortably like painlessly or tomorrow, chain in the world and trying to save people even a moment's hesitation tomorrow in service or something while, but then again, I could also be full of garbage because I've never been in that situation. You know like maybe like it's just like tough talk. That sounds really good on your podcast and the truth is like, if presented with an opportunity

I feel like, so it's pretty good. How many dogs is it a lot of dogs right it is, is in Vermont. Is there a fire, but I think it's good to know that about yourself too, because you know it's I hear you, I hear you throw the word Narcissus around several times, but I don't know if it and and and north system is. It is a term that we use very loosely in our culture, but but really clinical n p d is a really up like and and and people with, N P D. Don't recognize like they wouldn't have the press, of mine too. I think because I think everyone has a little bit of everything you know like it there there is. Sliding scale but to put on the malignant end of the narcissism spectrum, I don't know if someone would actually say like I'm. A nurse is this. I just don't know unless they went and like took a class at the learning annex, I'm like how to pretend you're, not a malignant narcissist thought of that.

I love it. If you just showing up at the learning annex taking notes, how can I appear to not be in our offices identified as an okay? All right done, it's interesting the dsm. What are they up to the DSM five? Some five point, something yeah. I I think it's five think it's five okay, yeah I? I love diagnosing people, but I wish that there was a new because, like there's so much lap, you know we say like someone has like borderline personality or there on this spectrum or NPD but I feel like a lot of it is very circumstantial and conditional sure you know people start decompensating or disassociating based on like external. Internal circumstances. I wish there was some way of like establishing that I'd. Simply I just would love to be able to diagnose people better. You know I so frustrated like with our president like is he a narcissist is,

be a sociopath like it's kind of like Reese's peanut butter cups, it's like oh, they Bebo, there's a little bit of. Oh, you got your narcissism, my borderline, you got your borderline. Oh, my narcissism were a socio path. You know, like I don't know I do. I do think at that end of the spectrum. There is a crossover, and I think you with, with the exception of I think dissociative identity disorder is, is a very specific thing that I know can't mount even that can and in a lot of different yeah. I don't know I mean you're right, but at least you know that at all comes from that section, and I guess it just more important for the experts to figure out the taxonomy yeah. Thank you, the ins and outs. I just really wish. I had like the easiest way to diagnose people, because if you could, what Did you do with that information feel smug,

I know what you have. I don't have anything, that's what someone with that would say: yeah. Well, we see- There is so much of it really I mean? You know, I'm sure our business draws that you know our respective business. To draw that and I'm sure it kind of in flame some of those tendencies, but I mean my guess is that, obviously, with social media that it's just it's just inflaming that and everyone, because everyone has a touch of the draw of pension at all costs and being noticed and significance at any cost. You know through good or bad means

and you know it just it just kind of seems like it's a it's just a part of our cultural thread. At the moment, it's funny I have for a while, my defense of social media, which I still believe is that, like I'm, I mainly try to use it for activist awareness sure, but like a few months, I was talking to someone I said like like I love social media 'cause like it enables me to like spread messages that I care about and draw attention to organization. What causes that I care about, and that's still true, but then into Graham recently modified their algorithm, and I haven't been get many lakes. Yes, I was accustomed to and you feel it and all of a sudden I was like it doesn't make me feel better. I was like maybe my tough talk about just you know, being a concerned activist has like I actually like. I just posted a picture of me eating breakfast and it only got six thousand likes was. I thought I was going to get ten thousand like in. So I was like. Ok, maybe I'm not quite as like,

benignly evolved as I'd been well if you, if, if you know that you have an addict's brain and you look at social media. If you could, if you could squeeze social media into a powder, it is a good psychological drug and you either, I think I'll. I I I think a lot of people will either get to the point where they just realized. There's just no way to do it in moderation, and I think people will just start crying. So I think we'll start putting so to me because it's like like what you said I mean I. I feel that you even as much as I know like it's bullshit, it's all bullshit doesn't matter, but you still like. Oh no, am I not what is this? Oh, I don't feel as valid and then when you, if that really really effects you more than a couple of seconds, then you should probably think about maybe not being involved. Go outside yeah. This is the same thing is like. If you know that your boss,

we can't handle taking a drink or doing a drug one time or not being addicted to any number of things, you know I would say, like It is certain point of like well, then, maybe I shouldn't jump in that pool yeah because it it it we're not. I think very few people are actually really above it. It's very. It can be very challenging to to page I try to have my social media discipline or my phone discipline, so I have a room in my house and it's ideally the phone lives. Try. This thing where like for me to use my phone to check social media actually go to that room and for a while I was so good. I was only looking at five times a day and I had a little stack of five coins and every time I looked at social India had to take a coin from one pile and put in another pile, but then of course, like 'cause, I do enjoy watching television. Could be watching television. The show would be kind of boring. I was like I really miss, like

looking at my phone while I'm watching tv kind of like cocaine and alcohol, like once I discovered cocaine. I was like my love drinking but boy. I really love drinking with cocaine right. I love watching this season of true detective, but when it gets low, it's really nice to like look at Instagram yeah. We can't You know, I think the big challenge is figuring out, and maybe this is the life long pursuit. Maybe it's just addict, so I don't know, but I think the lifelong pursuit can be how successful. Can you be at sitting alone with yourself with no distractions? You know. Tm is very helpful for that, but you know you would do that in twenty minute increments. When you do it so can you sit for an hour quietly with your? So I mean if you ever go to like go look at the historic houses from like the seventeen hundreds and all the rooms are small and there's like pretty much no closet space, because no one really owned anything, and this just like there is with the the like, the

recreation area, was really like one rocking chair and an oil lamp and you're like well people just fucking sat like is what they did. They just sat here. You know and you get anxious because of how few distractions there were yeah, it's worth, I sometimes have to remember, like all those people also had like dead real jobs and had to work to literally like they had to make sure there was food that they were growing to survive, and so I think, like if you're a farmer king fifteen hours a day, seven days a week, your best, source of entertainment is sitting right, just sitting and being exhausted and thinking like wow best case scenario. I've got another five years left right and I'm only twenty nine, and maybe they you know like who knows like they had like one book of like I don't know like nineteen century

poems, and we just read that same book over and over again right. I'm amazed that there weren't more std's back then because you would think that, like a huge huge former recreation pre electricity would have just been having like sex all the time yeah, but but people weren't really traveling. Outside of their own communities a lot so they There's not a lot of. There were only not a lot of foreign viruses and bacteria coming in because they were all essentially immune. Into their own stuff. You know it's like you you're one place, and then you go. Do water in another place in your body's, not adapted to the back to the local bacteria yeah, and so it probably was. I mean that I'm sure it's ramp it. It's been rampant in the last one hundred years because of travel and also I'm yet pre antibiotics people had much stronger immune systems like

you're drinking like now, we drink like clean water, which is great. We have clean food, which is great, but back then, like everything involved, bacteria so and of course so the dawn of the industrial age. You know, of course the std's were problem, but then you know people were in the Bin Victorian Culture, it was very much like, like prostitution, was about by a not super public but very accepted part of the culture, and so there was just a lot of fluid sharing it ends on there were you know, people did get Connery and people did get. You know horrible stds, but I think we're talking about like if you just live in a community of like two hundred people, yes yeah, that's what people had sex with farm animals and stuff like I mean we're, really not advocating that know what I'm most nut but, like you know like that, like that middle, the 18th century, no books,

no electricity, your cold, you're lonely. Again. I think it's disgusting be very clear, of course, but they didn't have the presence of engine will a flashlight or a of sorts. You know, depending on what your preferences are and I'm I'm I sometimes have the Exite. We reduce, as we all know, like things like seems a short things are sort of moving tored some version of an apocalypse. You know I have to admit to you. Point. Like I'm scared like oh, what would I do without electricity right, what would I do without heat? What would I like, like? I, don't know how to I don't have to live beyond like if every we shut down tomorrow, the water in the food, and

else would last me a month at best beyond that, I'm gonna try to make you feel better about that. I'm gonna try to be feel better about that very thing, because the one thing that you should have faith in is your innate adaptability as a human animal yeah. I mean that is the only thing. Well, it's like. If you look at human, just like adaptability for fear and viciousness or the through and community, you could save like those four things are the reason why, as like, bald maladaptive apes on the Serengeti two hundred thousand years ago, like we should have died off right, like every other creature, is better adapted to this environment than we are they

we fly, they run fast there tons of 'em. You know it's like kill off one hundred and there still ten thousand left right, whereas with us like what was at some point, there was a drought a few one hundred thousand years ago and evolution. I records indicate that there are only twenty people. Twenty humans left on that bottleneck where, and there was like, like Mitochondrial Eve like this one woman, all humans are descended from this one woman, because there were so few people left on the planet and somehow we clawed our way back in and the ones who lived with the ones who knew how to like stick together and be afraid of everything and most vicious creatures on the planet. But I'm sure you can remember when you were probably at the when your consumption was at its peak. If someone had

so you can you imagine living a life without drugs or alcohol to get you through the day you would've been like, I can't even I can't even imagine that I remember that I remember thinking. I would never be able to fly on a plane if I wasn't drunk, because I was so terrified and then I just fucking figure. It out like you, should never underestimate. You can't see your adaptability, it's not tangible, it's just a thing, and so, if you have faith and anything you should have faith in that you will adapt. To anything I mean how long have you been vegan? Thirty, one years before you were vegan, did you think you could adapt to a vegan lifestyle? So you did you just figure out what you need. Do you figure out? What's important, you would figure it out. If you didn't, I mean it wouldn't be fun, but

figure out. If you didn't have electricity, we just figured out. You know like with that's just what we do makes me. Think of me a nice idea for, like you, know the the road, the Cormac Mccarthy Book and movie. What? If there's like a nice version of that were like the pilot, the apocalypse happens. Everything falls apart, but the end result is like people are happier like people are like. Oh actually, like I miss my phone, because now I have friends now have children see now I have I'm outdoors like searching for food and like healthier, more active, so you had a personal apocalypse. You know like so you did go through a version of that in any kind of event that it feels a pocket that feels apocalyptic to people and if and if they survive it and they can,

survivor, constructively and learn from it. It's like you know. I think most people would be thankful for their apocalypse, their personal apocalypse's. You know, but again, that's just about adaptability and it's about choices, and it's about you know. What can you control, which is the choices you make and how you can sponsor and it's funny, because we that's what we sort of started talking about was like the people you had on your show, yeah and you've learned from them yeah and it it really does seem to be that, like like a love for what they do, but also that adaptability right, because you know I think, of like Bill Clinton when he was defeated as governor of Arkansas. You know that's and that's bad. You know like when you're what thirty something years old and you're unemployed and you've just been like soundly defeated as the governor mark

I saw. But if that hadn't happened, he wouldn't have gone on to like reinvent himself and become president or Al Gore in two thousand right. You know, like you've, just won the popular vote by by a million, but you lost the election, that's a pretty low bottom and then fast forward to he wins the Academy award for inconvenient truth. He wins the Nobel Prize, he the Board of Pixar an apple. I I don't know about that, and I couldn't get a straight. I couldn't get a good answer out of him and I asked about that moment of. Like you lose you lose this thing that you want it's the day after what's on your head. How do you pick yourself up and sort of reinvent or go down this other path to do all these other things that he's like anything all. He said because jeez bring it up, some bad memories and I'm like ok, well, you don't have to say, but I am but I've

about always interested to hear about how the same event can happen to two different people and if they, the choices that they make in the face of that profoundly affect what the ultimate outcome is and how does that happen in? What's the diff and how do people overcome those thing, because she things are gonna happen in life? You said death is guaranteed, and so is that good bad things will always you know what will happen, but that relationship to adversity and failure so many people, I think, of Robert Downey Junior right, you, who actually was my best friend in third grade really. I didn't know that weird little bit of trivia, yeah Darien Connecticut, I had no idea, I haven't, seen him nice, I once in New York and like the nine when he was bottoming out yeah like I was a night club and he was like on the stairs like passed out and I think it's thrown up on himself like it was pretty bad yeah. But I've seen him since then I mean, if you know he's an amazing example of I mean it's. The fact that he ended up playing

your man is so brilliant because mmhm, a lifetime ago now like that like when he was, you know getting fucked up and just appearing in someone's house you know, and it just seemed like there is literally no way this guy is never going to work again. No one would ensure him, you keys, not reliable, and then he fucking gets it together and is now a fucking icon. It was always an amazing actor, but now like he's literally it's like a families, an icon for families, yeah, and you know, and this and I'm assuming that, if you would talk then when he was like being admitted to Prism. Like he's a bottomed out crack and crystal meth addict going to prison. He would probably say like this is a pretty low moment. But if that hadn't happened, every good, that's happened since never what happened? Let's write could just for a stumbled along I don't want to name names but end up as some sort of like BC list actor. Who Lee remember right, yeah? Can you imagine like he's going to

is at that time or where were whatever it was in tangos agent like I'll, be one of the highest paid, most respected performers and and go probably not We have a belief like. Let me look at my magic, eight ball and scientists in my hand, and there's like whatever, where someone take that as a bad, so yeah I like well, there is absolutely no precedent for an actor bottoming out on crack in crystal messing going to prison and then coming back and having even some small semblance of a career will. But that's why anyone who's going through everything like like you were, should remember that adversity. It also starts with an a gives you armor for the next thing you know, and not just that, but but also the ability to

share information. I mean you know you say it's narcissistic that they're making a documentary- and you wrote another book- and I say well that's very helpful to people who are going through whatever sort of personal apocalypse are going through, go my god, I'm not alone, or this guy was able to do this and he went through, and I felt that way. Two, and so you know the other side of it. Is that it's the other? A word is that it's all troops to pick- you know to share to share these stories 'cause. This is how we learn and spread information. Well, that's that's the I mean I'm sure, there's narcissism in there as well, but the goal is to sort of say like okay, let me be as honest as possible right. What I pursued show where I ended up what the consequences were to hopefully like maybe let people know that you like what they're going through. They don't be able to survive it and

Maybe the assumptions they're making about what will bring them happiness should be reassessed right, see it's just too bad that you could have been friends with Tesla yeah, hey, buddy, yeah things are okay, you're going be there going to be devices that take people around that drive people around and it's going to be named after you you're not going to get any money from it, but You have a great statue by Niagara falls. Your face is covered in MAC. It's no you're you're kind of bottoming out right now, there's no maggot, your fine everything's, fine virtual maggots great for production company to talk about a little quiet for a second okay, because I drive by it all the time. On. Is that it's wrong is still that point yeah yeah, because it turns into Glendale Blvd and splits into Fletcher, but so

my wife. Unfortunately, this is going to sound crazy, but it's absolutely true My wife has a sensitivity to vegetables in that they give her kidney stones, I'm so she's had probably twenty kidney stone. Is her life and they out, like. Oh, your body, doesn't process a certain thing, so you can't eat too many vegetables so so? We've actually yeah have not been to little pine, but I do not have the sensitivity- and I want to come to your restaurant because I've started eating a partially veggie in diet and mainly for cholesterol. If I'm being honest, it's mainly cholesterol, but I realize like well. You can either be all of this or it's okay, to be some of this too, because at least starting down a path. Can you sort of talk but about its and what it meant to you and you know just your health benefits and mind benefits and all that yeah. Well, I mean came a vegan thirty one years ago and I had grown up

everyone, nice in the listening like just eating garbage- you know, like I love pepperoni, pizzas and Mcdonald's and like frosted flakes with, extra sugar on them. I of junk food, and I became a vegan because I loved animals- and I just I couldn't be involved in anything that caused or contributed to animal suffering so and then time and I found out about the role of animal agriculture, climate change, world watch just estimated at forty five percent of we change as a result of animal agriculture. I talked about it with Al Gore and he said that's the true inconvenient truths. He said it's easy to get. People like switch their light bulbs and drive a prius. He said getting them to give up. Mcdonald's is a lot more challenging right and then helps. You know the role of animal agriculture and diabetes cancer, heart disease et so, but to your your is you were sort of talking a little bit about flex some

and I don't know it had a name it will this reduce a tarian, there's flexity Arianism and it does and it's interesting, because a lot of people in the vegan world do have the sort of binary. Approach, I sure either vegan or you're, not right and I'm vegan, but I also think it's like No one is born like listening to the best records being vegan whatever, like you, evolve into it and like like in the world of punk rock, like I remember back when I hardcore bands in the early 80s like if someone was listening to the police, some of my friends we're in hardcore bands like oh those sellout sounds like just a reminder. A year ago you were listening to the police like the same way. What no that was different, some vegans will like be super judge toll of Flex a Terry, introduce a Terry and- and I have to remind them like number two years ago, you were at Mcdonald's. Well, that's that that's the thing that I think

can scare people who are on the cusp of it away is that I think with extremism in any across any anything. Whether it's entertainment extra is a religious extremism, political extremism. You know extra extremist, vegan mentality, but I people can get scared away because a handful of and again it's a long shot. It's not all just but it's just the same as everything else is a handful of extremist, like you fucking piece of shit that you're going to get you can't fuck you and if you like, woah woah, woah, woah, woah, woah woah, and I think it. I think what a lot of the extremist don't understand is like your bill, a barrier in which, like those people, might otherwise been sir, come over the side, but now they just feel like I don't. I can't yeah I like that. I'm scared you're, absolutely right and I, as the old man of veganism, I tried remind the new vegans of that, unlike unlike I sort of say to them like how would you have felt when you Mcdonald's, interested in veganism,

come up to you and yelled at using your piece of right and terrible like that, might not have encouraged you to consider being in right right. It reminds me of those that double terror quote that Obama paraphrased in his first state of the union, which is don't let the pursuit of the perfect be the enemy of the good right. That's such a great quote. I can take just getting back for a second, I'm just digesting that for a second, because we all again is- culturally, there's so much binary, there's so much binary ism right now, and it's like you're right that this figure that a hundred percent a hundred and ten percent and you're right that that pursuit of binary thinking or extremism really, you're running so fast towards that that you're not stopping to seek the truth, be trying to be reasonable. Try to communicate try to have conversations, try to learn or understand. I mean, as we saw in the last election cycle or like in twenty sixteen

I was an old friend of Hillary's, so I was like yeah Hillary, I'm a Hillary supporter and friends. We were Bernie supporters like fuck, you Hillarys the devil. I was like no she's, not, the smart, progressive woman and I was like end of Bernie Getz nomination, I will happily so for him and they were like. I will never support Hillary. I was like so you're going to help Trump be president, so right and I would pull like even Susan Serandon I'd be like, so you really think Trump will be a better president than Hillary Clinton and these binary thinking people would be like. Yes, then that's what we deserve like better, I think Hillary, and I was like that so insane. I can't even begin to process it, but you can't. I mean the only thing that you can do when faced with extremism is give it a shot. Try to talk, I think most people do want to be heard, see if you can have the conversation, it's just, unfortunately, especially with social media. We don't have the time or energy in our lives to have one thousand very thought out,

over sations a day. 'cause! There's certain point: you gotta live your life, so you really do have to pick and choose like which ones are significant and what you can do and what you can achieve. But but but again it just at what point? Do you stop at? What point? Do you stop trying to digitally do things and then just do them in your own life and own community in your own world, in the reason for for people for profits and that and it's that re, police seductive power of certainty. Yes, you know like- and I know 'cause like or the time when I was like a militant evangelical, punk rocker and I was a militant atheist. Then I a militant dance music guy, I another militant Christian. There's a militant anti v and then a militant vegan at some point, I sort of said: where does this

militancy come for like no matter what I did. I was militant, let's like the. If that's part of the addictive brains- and it's also like it comes from a place of like fear whether it's like from our own upbringing or just her heredity of saying like certainty like we look at the existential void in which we live, and if the world is scary and unknowable like certainty and groups of people who have that sir, he is so seductive. We need it because we we want able to lock into a free, a pre, fab belief system at our core, because that's very safe, because then we don't have to question anything. You know, because when you have to question stuff it may make you have to rethink some of the things that you are sure. True, that's maybe not true, and that's really hard to do. It's really hard to do because they

would mean that you are constantly evolving and at a certain point you just want to lock in be like? No, this is it's yeah. I just can't. I don't want to anymore. It hurts too much. I don't want to question you know like you have to do it's like the platonic cave. Yes, so we can all stay in the platonic, cave, look like fighting shadows or you can be willing to like leave, the cave and also wonder like. Why is that cave of certainty so seductive? to do that. Like say like, why is my melaten see like? Where does it come from? It's like? Oh, it came from, insecurity came from fear and a desk rip longing to belong to people who seemed like they had a whole bunch of answers right, it's really seductive, so I understand it, but ultimately like no one benefits- and I tried like I speak it different activist conferences and I try to compassionately, say to people like the criteria for your

Activism shouldn't be how it makes you feel it. How well are you serving the cause that you believe in God? If people could just remember that, you know it's like so like if you're a vegan and you yelling at someone eating Mcdonald's and you're, throwing blood on a fake fur. Coat like that might make. You feel good I don't know if that's necessarily representing the cause of animal rights. Very well right. You know, or the same thing If you believe in you know like that, our current Sistar current economic system, most egregious inequality, yelling at someone who disagrees with you- is not going to convince them to consider your arguments right now right, but you know it's you have to kind of. You have to learn that it's it's difficult. Just to tell like hey. Just don't do this or like people do have to learn. You know like when when I was in the depths of my drinking your depths of your drugs. If someone said they don't do this and you'll be happy to be like Bob.

You. You don't know anything, you know it's like when you're not ready to hear it, you're, not ready to hear it really do. Unfortunately, the sort of mad comic nature of life is that yet kinda have to arrive like you're not going to quit something until you're ready can. No one can make you no one can can It's you, you know it's like any. Any friend you've ever had have been in a bad relationship, be like you know this person to find xy or z and they're like fuck. You, you don't know it. Thing I'm different on the exception and then six months later I was not different. I was not the eggs, after that. I just couldn't hear what you were saying until I experienced it could not agree more and I've been I've been on both sides of that, as I'm sure you have as well countless times, we're like I'm in the terrible relationship and sounds like they're in a terrible relationship. You're not happy they're, not happy lie. Don't you end the relationship, because I can't well it's not even and that's not even just a relationship to a person but a relationship to a job or akarere or friend,

yeah or family member. You know it's like it. It covers everything and and again it's it's being able to step back and take stock in a hopeful you know I mean I feel like the reason that we say these things so many times to people is that our hope is that they don't necessarily bottom out before they make healthier choices. Well, that and maybe sometimes it's necessary, and I feel bad 'cause I've just been. I don't want to take up to I know you're not please set that sort of is an analogy. I was talking to some climate activists recently and not to overstate it, but an analogy that also applies to like us as a species. You know like will we wake up to the consequences of our actions before those consequences destroy us. You know get there a lot of people who are drug addicts and at some point, except that they need to get sober, but a lifetime of using drugs has already destroyed right and they'll they'll get sober, but they won't live right like so us

with like with climate change, with antibiotic resistance. Like will we finally will we wake up and will we be able to sort of save ourselves right and right now, it's a it's like sixty forty to sixty percent is not on the good side. Are we gonna, night. Ninety peacefully, surrounded by our dogs in Vermont, near a fire underwater, like you know, like the last time. This is really grim. I don't want to Gramma like the last time the earth had this higher concentration of co? Two in the atmosphere, sea levels were two hundred and forty feet: higher sh yeah, it's kind of like the in I always think of like you grew up where well, primarily in Tennessee, but I've been in LA for so long. So you member the end of winter 'cause things for

in Tennessee right, yeah yeah so like you would be like, let's say middle of March, and you would walk by a pond that was frozen, but you wouldn't look at that pond and say like it's going to stay frozen. You're like oh, it's melting, you know, like sort of like say like well. The climate is going to sustain that frozen pond near, like no summers coming, that's going to be water pretty soon it's kind of like where we are with like the ice apps and land and climate change. That's fun right! Well, hopefully uh we evolved gills Although the water might be pretty toxic by the time, the sea level, hopefully we all of all canadian passports. Those are deals. Yeah you New Zealand has already started now banned foreign ownership of property in New Zealand 'cause. So many people are using, that is there, like Apocalypse fault, fall back, oh that's a fun

I didn't know, I miss Brenda funny to them, but it's it's kind of museums also tricky because like if the apocalypse happens quickly, how do you get there? Yes, and your Jim Cameron, and you have like your own private, seven hundred and twenty seven. Maybe then, but like for the rest of us, like you can't walk, or you know also, if you're Jim Cameron- and you probably have some super high tech fleet of submersibles. You know that's the other thing they yeah get there by the via air or or see at the same time, but unless you're him he is the out liar yeah. So that's for Canada. I mean, like I just wonder, what's going to happen like suddenly, the population of Canada is four hundred million. Well, let's just hope that we bottom out before the it before it's over I mean again so Cory. Booker is an old friend of mine.

He was elected to the Senate. We met up and it's funny the first thing he said he called me up after selected, and the first thing he said was: what can we do to help animals because he's a vegan? Your house is a vegan Adam Schiff, our representative, while, of Adam yeah. We go to um press brothers on Franklin, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, so korean hour king, and that you know the the famous. Maybe we should leave it on this because I do feel bad like taking up do you're, not you're good to work on the Martin Luther King Junior like the arc of the moral universe, is long it bends towards justice. There's a you can also expand on that, like the arc of the moral universe or the arc of the universe is long, the human universe, let's say, but all call towards reason, and

why action? Eventually you like look at humans. One hundred years ago, women couldn't vote African Americans and white people couldn't share drinking fountains or get married. You know one hundred and fifty years ago african Americans were property. Children worked in factories. Fifth, years ago, people smoked on airplane, same sex couples couldn't get married. So there's amazing progress, it's just so we will figure it out. It's just well. We figure it out in time. Like eventually will be like using fossil fuels. Is dumb right and then, and then in a hundred years, are like well I or two hundred years why? This is the same way Look back at like you know, people were used as best as said they did, did all my god. What were they thinking? Yeah, like like exact idiots yeah like fifty years from now. So I mean we have we're here. We have ancestor offspring, will look back in like wait hold on you used to you, Hugh eight animals.

I toward like you use fossil fuels like. I feel I feel hopeful because again humans are very adaptable. Then there are Ians of us, you know, and if humans could survive a bottleneck, it only and only just be a handful yeah. I do believe you know now. It may not be you and me but she I do believe will go on and I the thing else or you know our son becomes a singularity at some point billions of years the none of it's going to matter movement to it. I I think in terms of survival, like you, have a much better chance than I do, because you're like good head to head like, like, I really feel like. I am like, like this slow kind of indifferent gazelle l that gets eaten for now you know what like the cockroach, the just like? No one bothers to kill, really gets too many of

yeah, but you also because you have a plant based diet. You know what plants to go eat you know in LA well. Is there I can't eat eucalyptus? I can't eat oak trees like I'll come over here and all knock on your door post apocalypse. Something like can. I have some lemons and come close. Of course you can have lemons income, quads, yeah and you're there, like, when your whole family, with like shotguns and like get away from my door that at one point might have fit cars that were too big for it I mean our fruit. Is your fruit? Consider in the apocalypse you can come things might change in the in the face of starvation, an apocalypse well yeah yeah, but it sounds good for me to say it this way now- and I just

vision of me like it's ten years. The apocalypse is happen not occur. Member, I'm your podcast. You said I could have some fruit. You know like the world a podcast as long no pop cats. Again people are Moby. Why am now, I feel I feel I feel good about. I really do feel hopeful about it. What are you hopeful about? Let's in this on a on a really low, because it's such a great number, the first time you came on at meltdown at meltdown, which no longer exists. Things end that I was. I was so gratified by the in that conversation to and- and this was I mean- I really hope- there's a lot for people to unpack here and I hope they could use all these things constructively and I hope it helps people. I hope that what you went through as a concept

is in service of other people who, hopefully can, I hope so get game gain something from the mistakes that you've made or that I've made. So, let's, okay, so on and on a hopeful note yeah. What are you hopeful about? I am hopeful because almost everything that we're doing as a species is moving in the right direction. That's good! You know like. We have also like that that, like the information we have access to like because in the past would take us a long time to figure out our mistakes, and now we realize that really quickly. You know thanks to especially now that, like binary coming sorry, quantum computing is sort of because start to become a reality like we're gonna figure things out regarding our own health regarding the health plan, it much sooner. It's just we'll the forces of darkness like how hard are they going to hold on. You know like, and I mean like the

producers, big, Pharma, etc, like the people who benefit from this sick and pernicious status quo like they're not going to go Julie you know like, and how much damage will they do in the meantime? So, like I mean as we were saying before, like over the last hundred and fifty years, we keep progressing. So everything indicates like a great future, for like we become more self aware, we become less violent, there's less poverty, infant, rates are all going down the only two variables really, our climate change, an antibiotic resistance. We figure those two out we're in really good shape, but at least much in the same way. So we look at our culture, is kind of an addictive entity and

active personality. A singular, addictive personality, of course, is a broad sweeping generalization. You know the first time I realized I might have a drinking problem was not the day that I quit. It let's take a little bit of time to first become aware and then begin, and that is a path that starts to form in your brain and for you. Maybe it was that six year period between trying to kill yourself through a sliver in a spanish hotel and when you get it over, but the fact that we're having these congress these cultural conversations now and that there are people who are aware of it, I think, is incredibly incredibly hopeful. It's not like. We just got the news yesterday about all this stuff, like people are aware

you know we know we- we, we know what some of our directions are, and I do believe that we will, you know, pull out of it yeah I I absolutely hope you're right yeah. I know- and I think there's a lot to indicate that you are right, because humanity has had some really dark moments over the last three hundred thousand years yeah. You know and there's a lot to indicate that things will work out if we're willing to make smart changes- and I think part of it too, is that each individual person doesn't- and you see this- with either voting or whatever it is, but each individual person thinks well it doesn't matter what I do, because I'm just an insignificant nat in the spectrum of everything. So I'm just going to do this bad stuff. Anyway, I did to myself or to the

to the community because it doesn't matter if I'm one one person it's like yeah, but if everyone thinks that then you're in you're in you're in unconscious swarm and so the choices you make, the healthy posit shorts, as you make, don't just affect you, but it does create a ripple effect that that Is that filters out through your community into the environment around you? And you are significant. I try to convey that to people and try to remind people also like the world, needs inspiring heroes, you know, like think of Gandhi, like Gandhi, was a failed lawyer in South Africa, is a lot of like remarkable heroes who come from really humble beginnings, and I feel like most people think, like like oh Gandhi, was born Gandhi right now, it's like no he's like some crap.

The Oxford educated lawyer- nothing wrong with Oxford or lawyers but like like he really was a failed lawyer in South Africa trying to like just make money and live within that sort of colonial system. So, like anybody can be the next Anybody can be that next hero- and maybe that's empowering message to leave people with like anyone. Listening right now can be a hero who helps save humanity, save their community, save the planet, and if you have magical thinking that everyone has magical thinking and you feel like- maybe it's not working for you. I feel like a way to sort of start breaking down. Magical thinking is first be open to the fact that you might have to change your mind about something and, if you really try to on paper justify why you believe the things that you believe that might be hurting you. I think that could be the first step in to sort of because it forces you to look at emotional thinking,

and logically, and when you start doing that, if it if the math doesn't checkout at a certain point, I think your brain will go Ok, maybe I do have to change the way that I think about this. That's a whole other conversation this for, like the tyranny of neural architecture, so like what you're talking about is like engaging the prefrontal cortex, an executive thinking which is really not, unfortunately like from an evolutionary perspective, we're not really built to do that. We can learn it, but it's really hard now. Well, maybe through self reflection, accepting your faults, accepting your failures, accepting your purse apocalypses and growing as a result, in spite of them and because of them you know what I'm not even going to say, grow and spy.

Your personal apocalypse is, I'm gonna, say, grow because of them. Yeah. Then, then, you, like you, said, and this I think a fun place to end this. You have everything you need in you right now, and I thought that that was something that was very powerful when I'm in my son, it might sound like a cliche, but it absolutely isn't that right, I can. I think we can both felt safe Why am I using like seventeenth century? That's, okay, knowledge. We should because we were talking about. We can both felt safe. The veracity know when, when, when we go back to living by oil, lamps and so you'll have the vernacular you have it all and mutton chop ed mutton chops as like Uncle Herman, that's right! It's all. You know it's all. It's all in there. So stop trying to look forward externally an look to see what tools you have inside you that you've already cultivated. So is your book out now or something to come out in May comes out in May yeah, and you know it's funny one last thing I really hate

boring. I don't really like airports, I don't like hotels- and maybe I shouldn't give this away so before the last book tour I had to do- which I really didn't want to do. I went hiking every day in it was parked in an area where I knew there were rattlesnakes hoping I'd get bit by rattlesnake, because I was like that's uh really good reason to not go on a book tour. If I get a big buyer, rentals know my god showed like hike when I knew the rattlesnakes were active. I didn't get that by rattlesnake, which probably all things being equal is probably for the best but like so will do the book tour unless, like I can go get bit by row, I mean what is strange 'cause you could survive that yeah, but you'd be down for a bit little bit. Have a good store. And you don't have the books today. Of course he's not going to. We got bitten by rattlesnake and then very few people would question it because who would go now? I mean now that you've said this people you know, but who would actively go pick fights with rattlesnake

mentally ill middle aged musicians on book tours, and also I you know, I'm inbred pasty, white guy. I went to a dermatologist before the book tour 'cause. I had like a weird looking freckle and it was all excited to tell me, I had some sort of like melanoma because I was like that's another good reason to not go on the book tour and he was like no, it's fine, just a freckle and I was disappointed he was like you know. I've been doing this for a long time, you're the first person I know who was disappointed to not yeah, I'm different, like God, damn it now. I have to go my stupid book tour. Well- and let's end with that, then this end with this thing, then then, just a little bit of advice for people to manage. Whatever? of mental illness or obsessive thinking or addictive thinking or anything that kind of gets in their way. Just one one tool: that's been helpful for you for other people: that's so many I'm going to come at like eat. Well,

avoid things that are bad for you, like avoid you know, processed foods avoid Kathy. I love caffeine, don't go crazy with it. Don't spend too much time on social media exercise like take care of your body, because there's an old Buddhist quote like it's hard for like like an unhappy brain to live in a happy body and then like Do the basics like spend time with friends, spend time with family and have a purpose beyond selfishness and like just do these things and things will get better kind of like the piano playing or me with my yoga practice or whatever is like. If you apply yourself and you make the effort, things will get better incrementally again, someday you'll look back and go holy shit. I can't believe I never could have projected this outcome because I didn't frame of reference for it, but I just put in a little bit of each day and in all good change is incremental and everything good requires daily a10.

Like. I try to also say that to people like you know what guess what you have to brush your teeth: every The rest are not just one and I'm done no yeah. You got to do it every day. You can't just exercise today we don't staff for the next one. Also after you don't have to do anything, but if you want this, it's worth it whether it's relationships or health or spirituality. Everything requires daily constant attention. Well, this was delightful to have you here and we're such a weird, crazy, close neighbors yeah. So please come back by again Kay and I walked by this house on average. I said five times a week. Well now, you'll get to walk up into the house. I don't know which houses here is so you'll have to show me. I was going to say the address, but then I realize people earlier. That might not be a great idea. Forty two twenty three made up. Terrorists you've, just listen to the id ten T. Podcast number m that from the intro, M four thousand M for Moby. Also it works two ways. You have two ways for that to work if you so desire

but damn it I am so I would is blown away by this again because you know listen a thousand episodes. I just crept up on me, so there is it like a flashback, episode or any sort of big? I we're in ITALY right now. I'm recording this and we're in ITALY and it just for reason in my pre deficit, that the sword was double leg, eight weeks of a side coming up, like all my god? That's now so it but I'm, but I am so under and glad that this was episode M because I feel like it

had had a very well rounded topic, spectrum of just things that, like types of things that we talked about of, I think it's a really great example of what the podcast is and what projects podcast can be. And again, I think we'll be just such a great dude and just the openness and the willingness to talk about and it also just the discussion of failure. You know, since we've been in ITALY, one of places that lives- and I went was Eric ulano or Hercule Anium. Hercule Anium has non italian speakers might say and so Herculaneum was it. It got destroyed at the same time as Pompeii by Mount Vesuvius, and it's just ads about thirty minutes outside Naples. Twenty minutes outside Naples and

which is not a huge mountain by the way. But you can see for pretty much we in the region. So it's a fascinating story because Pompeii, basically, people were just Flash Fried, I hot ash, and so that's where you see the very the classic. You know like stony smokey people frozen in you're, trying to escape or holding their arms up for crouching in a corner. Herculaneum would suffered a in the end, equally horrific, but much different fate, which is because of where they were located. They didn't get burned by the ash, instead, the volcano from understanding for

who created it's like a storm, so there was rain coming down and mixing with the ashen, creating mud and Herculaneum basically was effectively like buried in a mud, tsunami, They, basically it was destroyed by by hot mud, and it was a beach front town and was completely filled in and and then of course, I don't know in the seventeen hundreds they begin to excavated, and then they found this whole amazing town. And it's

it's utterly heartbreaking to see at the edge, and now it's no longer actually on the beach, because there's like a a giant rock wall that was just all mud that filled in, but you can see all of these the skeletons where people were either being washed out to sea or raw or just rushing to see to try to escape. But there was there was no place to go and it's it's such a powerful. Is

it's a powerful experience that if you ever get the chance, if you're, if you're in ITALY, I really recommend the you see, because very moving for both of us are and also just to see the the art that was preserved? You can still see like the hand painted frescoes in some of the villains. I mean a lot of them. Are you know the ceilings are all destroyed and you know, but there are pieces and there's preserved, marble, flooring and and and it just sort of it's just sort of the kind of stoic. I just remind you the stork idea of Memento Mori, which is this idea of remembering that things you know have a time and things die, and I know that sounds depressing to say, but I guess it just means you know. Ultimately, the ultimate message enjoy

your time enjoy your burrito. Just remember that you know it and we talk about this in the podcast. It's the one inevitability that we are sure of that. We are that you know we're not gonna, be here forever, and so you know pre sheet that time. While you have it and also appreciate your failures for the for the learning experience that they give you one of the interesting things which I think is an incredible agreement for that a wise woman

that. Once married me by the name of Lydia said we were of talking about the the soil around volcanoes and just how it's like it's so rich and- and you know the volcano is so destructive, but at the same time it creates it creates new life, it creates new earth, and so what you know what life is going to be created by the volcanoes that happened in your world. So I hope you are able to extract a positive message from that and I hope you were able to appreciate what movie was saying, which is that

Your failures are important and I'm pretty sure it was the same woman who married me, whose name is a Lydia who said you know anything that flourishes gets destroyed first and that's the seeds. Those are the seeds that grow afterwards, so appreciate, as embodies alone in the house, so appreciate all of it. The successes as well as the failure is because the failures are future successes. If you can think about it, the right way. I know it's hard. At the moment, but if you can then you'll win, if you can figure out how to do that, but I just from the bottom of my I want to thank you whether or not you're new to the podcast or you listen to some of them or, if forbid you

listen to all one thousand and please let me just keep appreciation and adoration on you, because I literally do this value in it. As I could. I could just tell people I was recording conversations and never never post them, but that would be weird, but you know this podcast meant meant so much to me. It's given so much to me and let me connect with so many people. The decision to do it may be the single most important impactful decision of my life because of how much I've learned and and the people that I've gotten to that have tricked into talking to me for an hour and I just I can't imagine. Imagine making measure my life without it and I just want to say thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the last thousands thousand and

to another m, you guys. First them was nine and a half years. That's crazy, nine and a half years. That's this podcast is sick kid. Now it's in grade school I got to take it to soccer practice and then to a Pokemon gym, I'm sure and then to see detective Pikachu, and then I gotta bite its first cell cell soon 'cause, all its friends have my god. Yes, come on, you grow up too fast. So me we'll see you for the second M around the 18th birthday, when I take it to vote Hope you having a great whatever it is when you listen this day night afternoon middle the night whatever, and

senior year is next week. Hope it wasn't too loud for my hotel room, neighbor next door. That's why I've been kind of whispering. Because I'm in a hotel he was going to bang in the law. You stop podcasting in there We're trying to sleep to thousand one thousand alright take care of that fake guy id ten t scanning, delete, enjoy your burrito.