« Jocko Podcast

149: Fields of Fire. James and Jim Webb. United States Marine Corps.

2018-10-31 | 🔗

0:00:00 - Opening

0:08:12 - Jim Webb Sr. 

2:58:26 - Jim Webb Jr. 

3:18:59 - How to Stay on The Path.

3:49:31 - Closing Gratitude.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This is Jocapa. Podcast number one. Forty nine echo, Charles in me, Jack good evening Good evening All my life, I've waited for this now. I'll, join you and your losses are a strength to me. I ache. And yet I know that Alec reached with pain on the dust road that went Corinth I breathe the dust and yet I know that Grandpa. If the gas that made a hero outer Pershing. I flinch. When bullets tear the air in angry rents. And yet I know that father and three farmer, boys at pickets charge felt a cutting,
Edge the drop them dead. How can I be better. You are my strength you go. And I have learned those things. Those esoteric skills and knowledge is that mark me, as one of you that Loose bowed piles of shit too much. Shit from overeating. Plop randomly around the outer dykes of avail mean trouble catching the aroma. Seeing the groupings watching flies, dance lazily, Rejoicing in their latest fitted morsel that bends, the low grass and a muddy globe like a bomb of cow dung trouble. I can tell from the crack of a rifle shot the type of weapon fired and what direction the bullet is travelling.
Can listen to a mortar pop and no its size? How far away it is. I know instinctively when I should prep a tree line with artillery before I move into it. I know which draws in fields should be crossed on line which Should be assaulted, And which are safe to cross a column. I know where to place my men when we stopped and former perimeter. I can shoot a rifle and a grenade and direct air. And artillery onto any target under any circumstances. I can dress any type a wound. I have dressed all types of wounds, watered. Protruding intestines with my canteen to keep them from cracking under sunbaked, patched And just with plastic tied off stumps with field expedient tourniquets.
I can call in medevac helicopters talk them, could cajole them, dare them into any zone. Do these things experience these things repeatedly daily. Their terrors miseries are so compelling And yet so regular That I have ascended to a high emotion that is nonetheless across The numbness I'm an automaton, bent on survival agent. A prisoner of my misery. How terribly exciting. And how to what Purpose will be skill. Serve me when this madness ends. What lies on the other side of all this. It frightens me, I haven't thought I haven't prepared for it.
I'm so good, so ready for these things that were my birthright. I do not enjoy them I know they have warped me, but We'll be so hard to deal. With a life empty of them. And there are the daily sufferings. You go signal them, but who else. I can sleep in the rain wrapped inside my poncho. Listening to the drops beat on the rubber, like small explosions, then feel the water pour into rivulets inside my poncho soaking me as I lie in the mud. I can live in. The dirt said And lie and sleep in the dirt is my chair and my bed my floor and my walls. This clay.
And, like all of you, I haven't diarrhoea, as only an animal should indirect squatting, a yard off the trail and relieving myself unceremoniously, naturally, annually. Deprivations of food festering open source worms heat aching crotch that nags for fulfilment any emptying hole that will relieve it appreciate my sufferings. Who do I suffer for That right, there is an excerpt from a book. That is called fields of fire and it written after the Vietnam WAR, by a marine who served their in this book,
paints a picture of combat, and in fact it actually does more than that, because a picture in old pictures posted Pentothal words or say a thousand words, but pictures don't always proper convey faults and emotions. You need one. To make that happen and in this book really captures all of its horror. Fear death gust love, hate indifference Chaos of combat the sorrow of loss, heroism. And, of course, in all that human nature and. As always say about this part guest while, yes, it is about ward, it's about leadership, and it's about atrocities in its about struggle. It is most importantly, it about human nature and top of that the incredible power of the human will, and this
Fields of fire gives us a very close examination of human nature in all its glory. Of course, in all of its horror as well and the book was written by a man. By the name of James Web. Who was a marine officer: Vietnam, recipient of the Navy Cross Farmers, budgetary, the Navy, former senator from the great state of Virginia he's written bunch of other books tat. I believe these, and produce movies, all kinds of stuff on top, has five children from correct one of those children Jim also served in the Marine corps, actually. Whose time in remedy overlapped my time in Romania, where he served as a as o three eleven riflemen
as member the one six Marines, and also as a radio men able to so its awesome, to read these books and no there Story and is even more awesome and an absolute honour to have with us here today the author. Of the book fields of fire and also his son. So, Sir, thank you for coming Jim, thank you for coming. Thank you for your kindness. I was, kind of wondering if you do know, J Jim and I decided What I was trying to figure out what to call you guys. I figured I'd. Call you young, Jim Jim, and I just keep calling you, Sir Settlement get another failure, so the out get that you guys number four commoner for common all the way out here from the east coast in into come on this end
For me to revisit feel the fire, which is just a book and what will get into that a little bit later. It's an iconic book about not just the Vietnam WAR, but really about Warren and the the wave laid out and again what will get into that a little bit. But I also wanted to talk to you and really get some your back story as well, and you bringing you know. We always try to start with the guest kind of talking about They came from and what their background, and you have a lot of that actually laid out in your memoir. So asked of its call to call this a member, but there it says it on the cover a member. I heard my country calling- and I guess what one little section of this- that that stuck out of me- and I think obviously let you expand on it, but I'm going to the books again. This book is called. I heard my country calling
here we go back to the book when it hurts just grit your teeth and take it don't don't you ever back down, never start a fight, but if somebody does never run away. If you run from a bully, you'll never stop running. But if you fight, what risk coming back at you again stand up fight back mark him. Give him something to remember every morning when he looks in the mirror, then, Even if you lose you win by the way, if you ever run from a fight, I will personally be your ass you go on. My father was not exactly a mellow guy. He didn't spare the rod, but he taught me early that there is no substitute for moral courage, whatever the cost and that ultimate duty of every leader is to take care of it. People who rely on him when otherwise they would be forgotten or abandoned.
Courage, in the face of those above you and loyalty to put to those below you were, fathers in terrible standards, the only true way to measure the worth of another human being self. There- you go those of those standards, your dad laid out for you. He was a tough guy, had a tough guy Listening to you, re D, the excerpt from the fire- I was just thinking about how long been and the journey that I have had since I wrote those words in learning nothing. We were talking about this last night learning how to write by writing this novel ruddy novel was an act of will for for a lot of different reasons. One of the things when, when I think about wake up and our family was it my dad was a leader more than anything he was a leader and a bit
families have different conversations one when you sitting around the dinner table, but his was always yeah. He we talk, Different issues, but it was always how do you mean how'd you motivate people one of his Logan's was you can People do some or you can make people want to do something, and so in a nutshell, learning from him. He was correct military personnel, posted in world war? Two became a bomber pilot, be seventy, be twenty nine and was in Berlin Airlift, and when I was very young and was transitioning into judge for the Korean WAR in the air pressure in the cockpit blew out jet bullet loser domes out, he got, grounded I'll, never forget, That day, when he came home when he couldn't fly anymore, we're getting away from the walk into the door, in my mom says it took it as wage away, don't ever mention it.
Walked in any restoring as winked at once. You qualify, the hey, hey, don't take off and so forcing I said: room was a day you they let you keep your wings upstairs, but then he was a pioneer in the most or programme. Still didn't. Have a college degree put First ATLAS in for the year force in one of the one of the great is to observe as a teenager was They gave him a command of an atlas. Thor scout Junior missile squadron the success rate on the atlas. At this time out there we opened opened up. Marie was eighty five thousand acres wilderness. When I first went out, there is great, but success rate and that squatter was eleven percent and he did made it one hundred percent twelve twelve successful launches and I go with them out to the
so, when I'm sixteen seventeen and watch how he dealt with is people wait. You just trumped, because I was talk about how I bring might aims to bring my son out to the training grounds and let him shoot machine guns and stuff. But you, your dad brought you out. Let you shoot missiles. Let me watch Youtube, just trumped me as the good back, then you know I could go sit. A central block house like a thousand yards away from war, one these atlas but watch and how we treat it as people in on your he been deployed a lot when you went back into the mate, he got rift at the end of our work, to cause you to have a college degree it when they brought him back in. There was either deployed, or station at basis that did not have military housing for three and a half years, and we Saint Jerome Reserve, where I was born. My foot this family had come in from the Appalachian. Mountains ended up in Saint Jerome. My mother was from EAST Arkansas very she had a very tough life early life three over seven. Simply
died with childhood disease, a kind of thinking we even see any more like her her sister. That was Here's to her died of typhoid fever, when's the last time which in America Typhoid Fever, so we were up and say John Zira Mama, had four kids by the time she was twenty four years old and my dad was gone and she didn't know. Hardly anybody they drove Missouri. You didn't. Have these family assistance programmes like they do now and has been one of the great privilege of my life to try to put those enter into our military, so my grandmother moved in cheek she was living, Arkansas, from Arkansas due to California came up and look us for several years and there was an iron hand in the house, but you know my dad would come back ITALY Friday night get off work at one point, but sky, Force Base Illinois dry three hundred and eighty miles, one way every weekend, no interstates DR all night, Friday, night short. Whenever
what time Saturday morning would he be under with when my mom's everyone, will Friday afternoon in the current right back but his example. Tell me more about axioms of leadership. Then any I learned anywhere else and being able to apply it in the Marine corps, which was one of the great pride of of my. I was really an extension of what he put on the day. One day in day out no joke The new challenges got to know grandfather my dad very well. We spend a lot of time. Fishing, honey, we're outdoor family and we ve had
same gonna few thousand hours of discussions. I think I'm your room. You can very easily say that the passage you read will qualify. The eleventh commandment nor household grown up is passed on to him in a path to me very, very, very simply, never walk away from a fight bog, never start a fight by tat, never walk away from one. Never quit and you'll be judged how you treat those around you and it's a it says it. It's been not one of those days. I've kept with me my entire life and its was lucky to have that kind of formative influence at a very young age, and I love the Marine corps myself but everything. I've learned about leadership is from him and being around his button, grown up in its absolute blessing. Yeah. That's that's all I know, and we talked about the slow but last makes out guys that are concerned that pay I'm not around. I got no two kids and doing another deployment and you know I always would tell guys
guys have been. I do know what you call it in you know. Viking years or whatever, but it They called it a deployment back then, but Guys and going on deployment of leaving their families for thousands and thousands of years and and that to me is an example that it's, the you might not be there to directly influence or get on a day to day basis. But the went when a young man looks up or a kid looks up and sees hey. This is what hard work is this. What commitment is this? Is this what sacrifices and they can emulate? that you don't have to be there every dated, instead, come in every single little thing that they do, and I mean clear, Both of you are examples of that. You can turn just fine, even if that is around every night. You know, and I was really when I was really young Eddie, was deployed on Berliner left eight aid to go to bed every night with a picture him on the runway flight line that airforce public
you're taken with him in his four sergeant Zahm visiting general. I still had pictured over my desk today. But that was you know that was gonna dead. You know, and you look at that and you you gain an understanding of what it means to serve from what what what your country is all about and new serving your country in all sorts of things. The one thing I would say this My dad really didn't want me to go in the marine corps here from the job that we were just talking about. You know when he had the most squadron he, had gone to night school of twenty six years, a graduated from college. Senor nice going to meet. It was deep selected for colonel and then they send the Pentagon to do legislative affairs? And it was the Mcnamara era in he would just he reaches you? Go crazy about the with kids, who were running the Vietnam WAR, and we are now these long discussions about you, you're you're, just gonna be meat,
You know what you're gonna be meet them. The marine corps is a political football, don't do it. His his line was go in the Navy stay on the ship eat ice cream, and I want I want the marine corps. It was a man then, when my brother Wyndham Rank or my brother was, if you required in the Marine corps, it was like my boys or marine. You don't go back to your child, it a little bit. You talk about how you moved around a tonne. Not by mean the sound, like your dad was a little bit of habitual house move or even when you get somewhere, he would move your you talk about. You were you in England, you live in three at three different houses and seem like every week, you would move around a lot and one of the things you say about that in the book:
is I'm going back the book here. I not only learned how to read a room, but by necessity became an acute observer of subtle body, language of each new tribal circle in each place. I learn valuable distinctions that help me to develop skills and incisive carried over into leadership challenges during during my later life. In order to lead people, you must first motivate them in order to motivate them. You must understand them in order to understand them, you must be able to grasp not simply their words, but the emotion Behind their words, The same words and gestures can have vastly different intentions in Alabama and Southern California and Nebraska, and sometimes even within the same town. I ought to be a receiver of information as well as a careful broadcaster. So absolutely you know what most of all with with my dad moving, I think. As long as we're living in the house was like seventeen months, while I was growing up- and I have a part of it- was it-
Scotch irish tradition, the Ulster Scots settled Appalachian mountains and then spread further question in order there they liked to say you know you you haven't, you Don't stop moving to have lived. Only two or three houses are something over the mountain. The german Cnet yard. He turned out literally, we are we get. We got its other does post. Group were to military was still solid sort of. Really sitting itself in terms of having large standing military and where the missions we're going to be with the space programme. Also program gone on so yeah we by necessity, moved a lot. But then the House Amarillo taxes, women, Emerald taxes one year will have been three different houses. I saw one cell and on our own sunset, such industry, we're gonna, move in that house and my brother night. We lived on the back porch view. Neither with the
you're the windows, rattling, etc, but nerves were destiny, had become Marines or started moving company. So then there were and upset the downside of that, and that is academically two and nine different public schools and five years at one point three to four schools and eighth grade. No, the info continuum in academic curriculum I started in the eighth grade was in Santa Maria California, when they started first opened up Ben Albert they tested the whole class. It took four of us, they put us in different. It is a bit like the beginning of GDP or whatever You know you're gonna, you're gonna be like an experiment. You gonna grow it academically your own rate. By the time I got to want to three. Like
fifth school in Nebraska. I was on Non college. Prep work release this guy out here and I ended up at a school in our early and I went to work like I always take a standardized test in that's really. I was able to get into the deep scholarship programme that later led me to go there to the Naval Academy, but the most important lesson from all that was. I was able to see such a cross section of America, first in the military. You know the military was the first institution in the country that was racially integrated and we had a totally different environment than if I had grown up in EAST Arkansas or somewhere else, but also so many different communities and you walk in and you're the new guy, Can you read the room and you figure out where the problem is? But you also is you know from from the from the quote that you read: you learn that a big part of leadership is knowing what motivates people and-
understanding that different things motivate different people not only culturally but individually, and so the sort of thing carrying out what you know what person is thinking when they are saying certain things do what body language means, etc. Translate that into the combat environment quickly and in Vietnam during the Vietnam WAR. One when I was there and we had an increase. Will cross Section equally the working side of american society in and I buy time. I've been a boxer for eight years. I had Bene been around. You know a lot of Africa. Murdered my hero or not. One was high schools, African reckoned incredible fighter, the Olympics in nineteen sixty four but dear hispanic communities, California, the FAO. Farming communities, the southern you know the southern mentality of which my culture derived and
When you look at a problem, we look at a potential problem. You know I got at once. I got cat force in terms of fear that the testing scores of people out there you learn how to how to listen and how to make decisions and how to preclude a lot of people that were going on. We had racial problems and in the military writ large. During that period we are, piety had these problems, I never had a racial problem. In any like method. Did you now what one of the things that, while you're jumping school to school? That was problem problematical though you learn in the stuff about Cuba, nature and way people are you, don't one part of the book here you say from from the time it was ten. My daddy challenged me to read a book a week and if any that- did not remedy my restlessness to turn red two bucks a week, Reed Red red. He urged me I had including poetry fiction history in anything I get my hands on that was about sport to the military, the Euro.
That much as a young kid constantly That really save me in terms of the deaf, raise standards on whatever in the schools that I was going to end. The other thing, my dad and I would do the time I was very young without borders contests. You know he was a big big reader to so you know all the way through his lifetime. We would do that when you know Up until you have and before he passed away we would go every summer we get the them Those in the family of the different generations get a fishing camp in Minnesota for two weeks and hang out built fire. FR, I catch fish, clean fish, talk, talk, talk and my dad- and I would always we Duke blank or we do. The British
The irish poets- and you know one of us had give a line and another would give another line to see who really remember. You know, and I always knew what I was I I school when he went, he was wanting to go go. De Minnesota. Even at that point does he would go and start talking to my mother, this one as well porn. How do you view the wind? Do you fear the force of the wind? Slash of the rain go face it and fight it be savage again cold and Hungary like a wolf and we ok, we're going to Minnesota and you also say in a book I knew and as I had always known that I was to be a soldier you know we were still earn outdoors family hot fish shoot Jim from the time you sick, jumpstart, you more than six years old. I got my the river. When I was eight years old, it was
part of a long going tradition from the pioneer pioneer days, here's your here's, your rifle loved Viennan outdoors loved all mechanics of that part of the world and of course, at that, time Post WAR war to u turn tv and weaken and you ve got victory at sea and air power, and all these shows an end at loved. Terry history. I watch this up and I said I I'm gonna be a soldier. I didn't know that time really it was. It was close call in high school. When I go in army or what be a marine. I wanted to do that and when I got to it, I didn't know what college what we were doing it was not part of our family heritage. At that time, directly going to college and figuring out what school you should go to a nose or to think, though I
when it ran one was fourteen years old, my dad dad I wanna be a soldier. Go to college. You, ecology, says you're gonna, be an engineer us of what are your generous. Do we said the invent things ass. I didn't want to Venice. Think, that's right. I want to go in the words of one of the people. I know so I found out that The navy had this Otis Scholarships for scholarship, false gosh, programme, because I could not have gotten unable academy our high school might My great work that great you know, I the other things I had in place. I think, but up The army did not have an hour scholarship at that time how to program were after two years. You could get a full scholarship that you only had a partial at the beginning, so I I lied to them. Maybe scholarship programme. At that time you book standardized test and anybody who pass a standardized test got it.
The interview process and you can go make your case. So I went to us school, it was heavily military cuts in us in a school we had twelve people from school who pass the test and got into the interviews our valedictorian saluted, Torreon, Allstate, basketball, player, all district football player and may, as I ate Pompey gasped comes invite Edna, irony, locked out because the two interviewers, the fur. One was a Mustang commander. Who had seen me fight and just talk by coincidence, limits commander Lassiter. He says where have I seen you before one may and they talked about what do you want to do as I want to do this? This is what I want to do. He says: what are you gonna do? If you don't get it, I said I'm gonna be here next year. You know, if you, you know, I don't get this you're up her next year.
In which we talked about working through high school. I worked all to high school, and he would come. After this he'd, come overalls packing groceries at the base. Commissar he'd combine and say hello, and this, interviewer or was unable academy graduate who had graduated and the bottom two thirds of his class and from from South Dakota unease heap. He was saying We don't we gotta. Brains in this world. We need leaders and he threw examples out. You know like things or not supposed to be able to solve. You probably know those from different interviews. You went through in your time in the Navy, so he goes We got all this mud in the Mississippi River. What we're gonna do, but the mutton Mississippi Reverend I said matter think about this. As it looks here's what you do you shot that river down for eight hours a day and you run a big like us screen through there filter, big filter on on
rotate her and on each in you put like a car wash you nobody, sprays, and so you run around the filters through new spray, the the model you put it in a covert and get a truck under their cabinets topsoil, send it back up and sell it back to the farmers to ok, that's all. I got scholarship were you. You mentioned fighting and you met. Boxing You know that you be mentioned a couple times and lobbies Eve I like fighting and What all of the things I mean! I was sorry, I'm a morbid jujitsu player, but the thing that you get. Your teaches you about life, about everything really, and I know a lot of those similar lessons come from boxing. You had a nice little love myself thing about boxing in here and I I want to throw it out there before jumped too much further. You know boxing stays with you through your through. Through your naval academy career and what not butter
here we go back to the book boxing and rough hewn world in which the sport resided taught me valuable lessons about human struggle and the thin line between success and failure. In the ring. You quickly learned that life was not always fair it's not always offer you a face, saving time out when thing We're going badly once the Bell Rang, you're out there by yourself exposed for all the world to see until it rang again no excuses no sitting out for a couple plays just because somebody hit you so hard. You couldn't see straight and toes felt numb went on. My kids competing Jujitsu a lot when they were little and and I would see these kids Golly tournaments in Jiu. Jitsu tournaments are very popular. Specially out here in California at that time and their popular everywhere now, but I would notice that when a kid loses, you noticed my kids point all kinds of sports. Whenever soccer basque on this, in that
If the team loses the soccer game, the kids, you know they walk off the field when it. It loses a you match, and this is just not just my kids but like now eighty percent of kids, when they lose that Jiu Jitsu match when their six years old under seven years old, they're gonna start crying and no it made sense to me instantly. There's two parts of it that makes sense to me number one there by themselves there's! No one to blame is not any lots of team, it's just them and or to when you get beat in a come in combat sport, There's there's a primal thing that you just realize you got beak by another human being in Game Anne and is not a game, and so It's like you said it's like there's no, there's no way out of it. For me those lessons that people take away from combat sports are extra, We portland it's the things that you just talked about right here: a nun and another on a number of different levels. You know an end one thing about
first of all on one thing about judo and you to choose, you know what the kid I used to read a lot and run Lombard asian history and near you learn D. The gene beneath philosophy behind which is to take your opponents, strength and use it against him out of just a kind of differently, and box and buttered I've always thought about that in other areas of all of my life. I've thought about that in terms of boxing. You know, you never know who the judges are You know what you know you you're absolutely right. I mean nothing nothing is worse than losing when it's just you out there. If it wants a team out there, you know you got you got or you can pat on the back and whatever. But it's just you or is one: are they eight fighters in Omaha when I was lightened, used to say it's just you and other guy, and all that smoke back.
So you you learn to deal with in the old. When I say you don't make, you may perceive unfairness. You know you are right. I think I won that fight, but you can't talk got it for the rest of your life, you just say alright, you got to you got to swallow it and you got to say that was that and the other thing is. You have to prepare. You know when you, when you say I'm gonna, Thirteen. Sixteen years I got a guy could be fighting for three thousand people in Omaha. And then I will not go on in a winner. Indifferent was cold and then come may watch watch. Good fighters. Really, oh, my god. Oh my good fighters have acted, including professional were stable as well, but yeah I'm going to be in front of three thousand people, and I don't want to block an ass. You know in so on yourself. You put prepared, should on yourself, which actually is learning tool for being a writer. You know you, you
I think you're working hard or you may think, you're just passing the time, but when the book comes out, you're gonna be exposed, alleys reviews and that sort of stuff, and also it's kind of inner thinks I was just talking to a friend of mine, who is in in government right now. Who is a very fine for? all player, and we were comparing you stagnant how hard it was to deal with a certain individual, because he'd, been arrests were made Stan how'd. You get the team around you too, to solve these problems. Well, you know you learn to step forward and take responsibility for salute, since you know if you're and in individual sport, I'm probably more than any other kind of sport. You know it's like all right. This is what I, but eve- and this is one of our fight for and if we lose will lose, but this is what we want to do in my life combining that, with with the Marine Corps you know where you are
sponsible for the lives of those of other people, and you have to make decisions that affect other people, couldn't have been better training for any other leadership situation had been it when winter, going back to where you got selected amongst tit for this further Scholarship Programme, one thing you said nobody's going to work me to have surgery? As I remember the day, I got that I just said: okay, I'm going to wrap myself a little tighter here. You know somebody up there likes me. I remember that one, you know when you got the The letter from the Navy in the mail box, if it was Then little letter you know now I got the package was Cole. I got that pack and know what I did I'm gonna bust, my tale then came right back. Then it was I there were fifty one schools that had
programmes and you you listed the top six in order and then yes, no, yes, no, while I go to these others, not an enormous amount of brass phrasing. How can we anywhere on the six warm in schools? I did not know the University of California from the man in the moon, but I said University, California sounds warm and I and I put it on the top and I got in the university California, I didn't have their Nebraska quota that something had don't know. Time did very well in the military Programme and Maya my mom in core them rigorously in a programme said you you really she go look at him and so did my dad. At my dad's, how much fun I was having down there, and I didn't lock this boy out. If you see you applied, then for the Naval Academy, while you're at USC does- and it was at
you surprised to get in there. Well, I think. If, first of all, I had, I had First in the leadership programmes at something come in strong recommendations major onto copper was the the Marine and Maya Colbert was to the naval instructor and they both wrote, strong letters for me. And I had to get letters. Recommendation from high school, and you know what I was a high school I did really well the literature programmes, even though I've got put a dummy, English myself, my my senior year. We were like what you do last summer, while there were study the great artist, but the woman who was my teacher she saw how much I love to write. Red and the sword thing it's so she wrote me a wonderful letter and done
you always on the presidential appointment side, which was the active duty military in I think they took. I can't remember no, they took fifty or seventy five, but they took a certain number from the from the country and and and I got it so- the euro. The naval academy is, is his story unto itself. You have one section and I wish you can go to the Naval Academy. Of course I worked with a ton of people over the years that that did, but I thought that this little story Well, I just thought it might capture some stuff about the Naval Academy, an animal This guy again, this is still from the book. I heard my country calling after dinner, reported to the room across the hall where, the four who had joined evening come around towards its end. Turk turn Beating me, with a cricket bat Your toes aye aye, sir, I would mean overrun touch my toes they would hit,
swing the bat as if taking back in practice for slow pitch soft ballgame then come to attention and resume, my brace, which is standing at the position of attention being army. Sir, did that web, no sir, touch her toes aye, sir. The bat would connect again beat army. Sir, did it hurt? No sir? Ok, touch your toes aye aye, sir. The blow would come. I would written up again beat army. Sir, did her no sir. After they had each hit a couple of slow pitch home runs. It apparent. Stop being fun and their exuberance diminished, one of them. And he told me that if I would simply admit that it hurt, they would stop. Beating me but for all I knew even this guy. Anti could have been double think if I told him it hurt when I really be allowed to leave, or would it just bring yet another lecturing another round or worse yet did they really want to send me back across the hallway I'd? Alright,
I dealt with doctor no pain before dinner. I did not want to survive the cricket bat only to go back to the toothpick, which is another torture. They were putting me through. The pain actually left my body or maybe was merely my brains reaction, as I would later find out with Marines who were wounded so severely that their nervous systems became overloaded and shut down so that they could not feel any pain had detached myself from the moment. It was this. As if I was watching myself from another room, it hurts web. No, sir, just was that it hurt idiot. Did it hurt. I could hear worry in his voice, somehow the very abuse that they were now weary. Perpetrating had inspired me by refusing to lose. I felt that I was somehow winning. No sir touch your toes Another blow bead army, sir behind me. I heard them discussing that the bat had said at length wise on my ass I get out of your web aye, sir. So
For years this nineteen sixty four naval economy was a different place need, needless to say, then it than it is now. The ongoing Bob Timbered was ready as book Nightingale song. We discuss that that incident in The comments he made was he Meeting me was not jiggly bitter about it, but he could still give me the individual's names and I gotta go, but in others Naval academy at that time. Pendulum swings in terms of indoctrination, and you were education fits in what type of education, etc, etc, but that arc class class in eighteen. Sixty eight d- the alarm in terms of policemen doctrine. Nation had swung very far, and it was by coming.
Really they words like tribal systems, were thirty six different companies, some of them were relatively loose and some of them were really. You Actually we had the two to companies in in my class that ran out physically ran out more than half of their fleets, and these people were highly screen. I get some details in the book about the number of class valedictorian varsity athletes, Eagle Scouts, etc, which I, when people ask me. What's the great benefit you got out of going Naval Academy wanting, I said as well. I knew that I could achieve among these people who headed the cheap and different ways in in high school, and I had a lie to learn. Do you know that I could compete in in the in a while? on the right track attitude whenever they, but this class we started with thirteen fifty and the first week or two of a plea beer when people resigned, they allowed Newark
to come in just for a short of time, so I'll just stick with one thousand three hundred and fifty. I think we graduate at eight hundred and forty one and we had the highest attrition rate of any postwar We can, of course were were too late. Naval academy class. And there were some really people who would been fine officers who- run out for one reason or left in that time period to coincided with the very beginning of the Vietnam WAR, the civil rights movement, a lot of different things return at the countryside. I can remember coming back from boxing Thus, in the summer of eighteen, sixty four, we had another one: it's when you went down on the tables was another tree top new story the day. An error on the front page with the gulf of talking incident of the posted Hanoi. Sure of the ceo enough. We were like Ok, this is this is really going to happen, and we d hear that
I graduated nineteen sixty eight was was do the worst year for american casualties. And it also was The year were in April, Martin Luther king was killed in in June the night before he graduated Robert Kennedy was assassinated. It was just an end to back it up into the tat. Sixty eight offensive happen before, Martin Luther king was killed so that we just boom boom boom the last year and different people reacted in different ways, but I think the majority of the people that I was with their during that period it bit gave us a real seriousness of purpose. We knew we were going. It wasn't going to go away, particularly for the Marine corps, we know now that we are going and so by the time, I graduated there was no. Doubt, in my mind, were where I was going to was one of the reasons why, on first class
Scrooge. You know that at the Naval Academy it used to be after your Last year, you cruised, with the enlisted folks you know you will I lived with the snipes. Wanna CBS after my first thought was a great learning experience too by the way to see how hard those guys work diner I hardly ever saw the light of day. They were a trip to earn a living spaces. I remember one night You know that we had like six or seven midshipman asparagus living space and I'll. Do it ever the dirtiest job they could give us. You know we get down in the villages and scrub for the week, save this for you, it's at a Rinnai to play really want me to do man I'll do, and so I The day they accepted me, we had this first class buddy officer who, kind of like the the guy there, and they had one wall lockers for by four wall locker, where their camp, all of their different types of books.
Other supply, his ok, web come on over gave and then combination to that water and air look out a bottle of booze innocent a boot up to do the mess hall ends in scored, a can of apple juice came back and we, as I don't k, you're you're, alright web and after my third year, because I knew us going to Vietnam is like, maybe may see, the sea, the Mets I signed up for a amid crews. And got on those Saratoga. Your Sesar Togo As I wrote about in book, we graduated the morning after the arab israeli war of nineteen sixty seven began, and so We will monitor. We flew to road of Spain that to suitable Crete, where the Saratoga came ended to pick us up and had just made it back as liberty.
The hangar deck was littered with casualty, symbiosis liberty and when we are, you know we took them the small boats out and bring gear and got up to the hangar deck and Anna were marine guards or on MRS, do not talk any these people and We went up to our spare forty eight other similar uncertain, we went a living spaces and that was an incredible crews goes the soviet Navy. Just broken down into the men, knew we were playing games with them. The whole time they cross decked their liberty casualties into the America which took them in the and Athens, but it was the cause stood air ops on a career. While we were there incredible learning, experience that that's. Why you have it seeing arab summit aircraft carrier. The first time that I thought I was it's it's it's it's insane is what it is. It didn't say that and that's just normal life on a carrier, and you know it, difference,
same thing, talking about my dad and muscle squad, difference back then, and now was I had a little eight millimeter movie camera and after evening meal, I could go sit on the flight deck and take pictures of flight ops. You know now early enough for safety reasons, and whatever other reasons you can't do that, but I've got some great shots of some immediately are a five taken off all those things and we had spats honour and that whole crews we had a for. They said with a nuke on it and the front right catapult because of the situation and was going on the mentally sir. This is, I thought, pretty pertinent here is your ear at the academy, and this is what you're talking about right now, but going back to the book as the Vietnam WAR gathered intensity, the leader, but the brigade began posting pictures and biographies of alumni who had been killed or missing in action on a large board in the middle of the rotunda just inside the main entrance to Bancroft Hall. The pictures
in short, biographies were taken from the lucky bag. The class yearbook from the year that each alumnus a graduated the board which the notices were placed was large, perhaps eight feet high and four or five feet wide at its top. Was a boldly lettered inscription. To those who went before of us before us, as the class of nineteen sixty eight neared graduation, the to those who went before US board had become too boards and then three High percentage of the alumni listed were either Marines. Or naval aviators many of their names and faces were familiar to all of us. More than a few included friends and some These were specially close so that that's a reality for everyone especially because in nineteen sixty four that wasn't happening and then you go,
Nineteen sixty eight, your fill up this board your word every day, look at you, you look to see what new faces arm Any classes sixty six and sixty seven in Amerika were hit very hard tat. Sixty eight, and I think I wrote about those, but one of them on the toughest moments. Of that period of my life was when I was the brigade, administrative officer and so you know my job, which wasn't much of a job, was to go one of those days was grown main office, clear out all the correspondence in their sorted out, pass it to the rest of the brigade, staff etc in one of them was bringing a casualty wraps to the brigade for lieutenant who get the board on. And without even.
Knowing it. While I pick them up. I picked up the casually report of one of my good friends and You you graduate from you gotta me and its to go to tat, go to cover to the basic school and learn give me to talk a bit about the basic rule, got Marines on here that that went through it Brian stand. He gave his prey. Details on the basic school and but We see this time. For you and I'm gonna, just to go. Look for the Marines combat an overseas departments were unending the girl. His burden fell on the private. Some lance corporal fresh from boot camp, who populated the lower ranks of the right what turns and the lieutenants just out of the basic school who commanded them the Bay
explore what we called TB. S was now starting a new class of two hundred fifty lieutenants every three weeks in Peru, Vietnam days. Tb has it taken thirty weeks to complete, as nah accelerated the time renewed. Turn it spent a tv s was reduced to twenty six weeks and then to twenty one. The true to the traditions of long held, just The plans of the core. This reduction took place not by cutting the quality or the content of the curriculum, but by radically like singing the number of hours spent in class and in the field every work week almost every week, Tb Us companies worked late into Saturday evening. They spend a high percentage of their time in the field and a large percentage that time was dedicated to night maneuvers and develop. X or copper given the day off on Christmas, late into the evening of December twenty fourth and assembling on the tarmac for a field activity at zero. Six. Thirty in the morning of December, twenty six with Month of with him
after finishing TB, ass, the infant lieutenants among us, would be boarding military flights to Travis AIR Force base. California, to report immediately for thirteen, tours in Vietnam as individual replacements in infants, battalions that were already engaged sustained heavy combat. Well porcelain, let me say something about about the basic school at that time, by the best school of Urban, do today as I as I wrote, the the course condensed in its time, but not in the quality of what they were preparing us to do. On the one hand,. The marine corps had dropped the de millimeter more out of its. Arsenal. After the korean WAR, they decided that they didn't needed with more artillery closer, etc.
They learn early in the Vietnam WAR that it was a valuable weapon. They put this they might might package back in the basic schools are actually added a tactical package in into the basic school curriculum they cut out. Some other dress and ceremony stuff. You know they did. They did take that stuff out not all of it, but what some of it, but we worked six days a week we work yeah. We work done on the twin fourth and twenty six December. We worked on the thirty first and the second of July. I mean of January, and you know it was the intensity actually helped prepares some of the great friends in my life for people that I that I met in basic school. We welcome currently together, and by doing this every day in intensely every day you
a better feel for what you actually we're going to be required to do it something about basic school one. There is, as I say, it was the best school ever been to was it is educational. It was practical and it was looking toward the view. French any weapon system a week. We learn every weapon in the Infantry Battalion in basic school. They would teach you to young class. Then you would walk out assembled disassemble familiarize it and then you would go shoot at every single weapon my first day, my first night, Rifle Platoon commander. I took the that I just picked up into. I move night ambush, yet Vietnam is unit, would have fifty one cow machine gun used every supporting arm in the Marine corps, except for closer of
first patrol did all the on calls etc, and you know that was basic school. So Did they go out? I heard they run problems with you in the field during the basic school. With you gonna patrolled, they have up for where's that they would attack you planes, we ran closer there weren't any planes attacking a zone. Savior knobs. I said I said role players so that you would, when you're doing a patrol in the basics. All I see, how do you simulate and how well did they simulated so, My vote was was walk through. You know, We start with the walk through reinforce all we had we had really talented combat experienced instructors, in all of our work, platoon
bread or accompanies broke down a final chance alphabetically. You know You know how that works. Well, you're sort of at the end of the off about you know we got them for gear. The last in line for everything I remember one night where, we were getting dismissed or in a company formation, and then one of them was a form listed in our platoon. We were, we were Roberts through XL, something in his The story of this so from the boy for large ones. We march we regos zoo Zoo, but we had our arc, step two commander had been seriously wounded as a rifle platoon commander and fifth Marines. All of Oliver. But step to commanders had had been in in combat. There are a lot of talks of those
thanks, but then on it. Arctic side, you'd go You learn it you know you learn in class, you should go out and walk through it and then you'd have aggressors. You know it. I don't believe for a sdtv. De aggressors which were enlisted Marine just back from Vietnam who just love to mess with the with the basic school attendance the big problem and the greatest surprise I have to say in in moving into combat, the big problem was, if fewer, save for this exercise. If you're the platoon commander on this petition, in the attack exercise. You got forty nine of the lieutenant sitting. There sake not value. Do that we're not wiped out. Look that come on just now, which you don't need to be on my way into being a wedge. You know, or you know you know what ever whatever whatever you know, I'll, never forget the feeling of Actually commanding a rifle to combat it.
On a move and, I just said hold it up and everything to stopped. Now that we're is right. Now I mean more than us: Airbus stopped. You know anyone. This is. This is pretty girl. You know the, there were there were things could have been taught better. The one thing I wanted to say, I know proud of in terms of the way that we did operate in Vietnam and had a lot of leeway to innovate. That's kind of law I think that in the history of it there were amazing letters I wrote back to off. That I knew talking about. We dont really you have a patrolling package over here. You gotta, opportune and attack packages. Here, but really what we do all the time which we patrol than we assembled than we attack our or If we're going to go into a built up areas from the d,
actually read the extra red from from fields of fire. I know where to go online. I know one to put my troops on. I know where to put my got that did come from from basis to the separate the separate. He's we connected it in the end. In the reality of of what we were doing tell you there's a long, why we're getting a little hut dates, but that there is a long line of things that the young leaders in the Marines had done before I got there, and and also in what I was able personally to do as a rifle tune in in depth. As a company commander, One of the things we saw on. I wrote an article about this cost upon. I got back from Vietnam was that the marine corps fighting suspicious Poland small, but it really is statistically What and weaker parties for four marines built around the ba are burning but a rifle had it
It has been put into place and were war too, because at the beginning of war war to the marine range, operating squats like Levin Level Marine Squat, and they found that a squad you couldn't, can directly control, Levin Pip, so they went under the triangular concept with you know, the Marine fire teams, but the price what that was. If you took two casualties, You don't have a maneuver element and built around an artificial, notion, because the m16 could be fully automatic automatic, like I had a some important and in my position as well, so what I the young leaders in a reference just sort of over I'm to start a duty was cannibalize into the rifle squad,
so in our rifle platoon, instead of having three wifeless was and then a gun team attached from this notional weapons platoon, we put the rifleman into two squads and then The gun team in as the third squad for the triangular concept, not just come happened. No one told us to do it. We d sit here. You can't casualties casualty flow that we were taking just couldn't do it any other way to be effective. But with the parties has been, who were honest, we moved at night constantly submarine. We moved it night. We were known from moving at night. We walked when we moved for that copper assets in Vietnam, for the Marine corps, would scarcely the aid Forty six was was built standards, room amphibious carriers and Airbus assault jobs, so they were built to deck
base and Four amphibious assaults, but then, when you get in continuous ground operation to just one enough, although many were very vulnerable to ground fire, so in areas where the arm You would have been taken up with Huey Gettin breakfast wanna hear reason are not run him down. This was a great concept or mobile concept. Come on. You know he heard it. We do is not needed Lord long time we had to forty six is for our entire sector during the day and supplier metaphysics, whatever we like walking it taught, it taught me to fight at night, but also when something happened, casualties were high culture. Asshole the belly button? When you walk along, you know you could you know it was not on common practice, they get a booby
Rather I d go off and you get an ambush on it at night. You know you're people were packed in etc, but an so you MIKE Mike Mortar I decided I wish there were people taught US company taxation, basic school districts, Stu Millimeter mortar is the company commanders personal weapon, so I decided one I was company commander, I would get set and I, like as I would get set you no way away. At the edge of our battalions sector crown operating independently, like I'd, find Sometimes six hundred pounds a day I'd, send up a rifle platoon end to secure an area when we're on the move. You know said combat patrol to get a new spots and arrived pituitary securely. I take a resupply, haven't drop a pallet my wife's insects underground us. That was your. That was the traditional beforehand. You can, you can hope, maybe forty round, but I'd have
drop paladin that help builded too. Sandbag urban areas for the sixty. We kept to always three we kept to I use them for prep. Fires are used for h eyes when and on my guys, get really really good. That the mortar teens I've been on the field without witwer the marine corps. When they do you want SK, I set up a fire mortars noticed in training and it's ridiculous I'll go. They are its awesome thing to watch. It's a beautiful thing to watch. Yet there is no. I gotta dug in a little bit about the training. Right came back from my miles from ours deployment to Romania to cover the training, and so it was it was all that that's all I was trying to do is getting guys ready for what they are about to face and we had we had. Incredible opportunity that we had this however, two miles gear that yes, we something that wasn't miles gear. It was like miles gear, but it was infinitely better. It was
surprise been moved by million dollar system hospital. He goes on your shoulder. So when you were getting shot out you'd here, snaps from these little speakers are you get Mordred and there be explosions going off in your ears. It was It was awesome, Darwinism, India, that they actually had the very beginning of that concept. When we went live fire early on where they had targets pop up in whom she, the charter, that was the most sophisticated we get in. What I found with my fire was my Farkas. When I came in it was all we do everything I fired. That was the big deal. We still, we never got away from laugh why fire, but we do it. All four. On forced training. We are going against guys with we, either with lasers, with paint balls and that was infinitely more realistic, because the paper targets never maneuvered on you and same thing when you had the guy's return from Vietnam who were maneuvered on you and you were the basis school. I had all my seals that had just come back from combat opponents and they were the guys we're going against the balloons.
We're getting ready to deploy. So it's It was awesome. I would get the feedback I would get was always hey, it was. It was actually easier in combat. You know minus the the will differ, but that the threat of actual death, the maneuvering that would happen you they were used to manoeuvring and seals who were bad ass, an now there manoeuvring in someone else's, not quite as you know, in the game and also the enemy doesn't know our tax swells. We know it's my guys would know tactics that suppose can be used against them. So it was, it was awesome, but it's just one talk about showing up in Vietnam and and first patrol you're going out and you're in that, and you handle it. That's that's a complete testament to the quality of that training cause it's free and crazy. You know that we will talk about this last night. To development is the key to everything and Getting your mind. Right is in the terms of what you're gonna do and knowing
assets that are available and the Euro has been a lot of time. Thinking about this to you in terms of what what I was going to say I had one really terrific mentor who what, when I graduated from the Naval Academy. I spent like months as a drill officer at an end with the new class. Coming in before reported to the basic school, and I was a baton. Andrew Officer, there were Ex Elvis over six battalions, I got the Marine battalion officer who had just got another hospital from have been wounded caught in their company commander, offer one what and was thick veil stensland was his name in short, he'd been blown up in and he was like so easy. I mean no bullshit easy,
and easy as a leader and so the other, the other five drill officers in my closet. They got their own office in order with their battalion officer and Stensland goes Why do you need an office? Is a Youtube you're lieutenant. Now you get office. What you do not want you to sit. My office I'd sentinel his office in every day was like you know: came back and forth in order. I go out, and I do you know it. Let's go do my four miles and do all my stuff and he came back and said what are you doing on I'm on my way to go to, Vietnam is, as you would have noticed like in Vietnam, is undertake. Out tonight. We're gonna get really really drunk, and I'm going to keep you up all night tomorrow, you're gonna work and that's what it feels like heavy did next day was an odd pleased with also louder. And
before I before I left one of things, I'd in I talked him about formula for base is to be what it feels like to get shot. It took Even to think about that stuff, I'm is just to forget about that stuff. To do your job. Now is the very first thing I thought about when I took that that patrol out echoed yours done something on just don't even think about that stuff I want to take it to the book here for a minute cuz. What does the Jap recalled Helena's very small place? Then it talks about exactly what you're saying here so back to the book. From the day of my arrival was platoon commander with dying delta. We have been engaged in continuous combat operations. Intensified in recent weeks by a series of unpredictable vicious firefights. Despite a steady flow of individual replacements, the numerical field, strength of our rifle company, have been reduced by about half over the past three months. This was an equal
opportunity battlefield. We lost Marines through every possibility that infantry combat offered, including gunshot wounds from several different caliber weapons in all kinds of shrapnel bar caliber Rockets rocket, propelled, grenades, r, P, jeez different sorts of hand grenade sixty one and eighty two millimeter mortar fire oil is rifles plus land mines of every size from a grenade, two large caliber artillery shells right patterns were largely made up of young both officers and enlisted by nineteen sixty nine the vaunted ranks of the career in Staff anti who historically been the backbone of the Marine corps, were showing the effects of four years of heavy combat. In the infantry battalions, that impact was both visible and profound within a few days of my within a few days. My platoon sergeant the fourth marine to hold this key position in the past three months would leave us a sieve.
The case of ring warm covering his torso, including his entire crotch area up front and back my fur. Platoon sergeant had been by a booby trap, while maneuvering one segment of our platoon onto a ridge line during an extensive firefight shuffle suffering shrapnel wounds in his hands and arms and stomach area blowing off pieces of his fingers and slicing is bladder Simple tune sergeant had served with us for a couple of weeks and then was by the company commander to another unit. The thirty picked up his third purple heart after being hit by an r p and thus have been rotated out of Vietnam. The fifth on his second Vietnam tour became sick of the constant combat and suddenly decided to leave the marine corps and our for company when is enlistment, expired toward the end of this very operation in private terms this turbulent intensify the relationships between pulled the balloon commanders and the squad metres as
daily life and death. Tactical decisions would need need to be made in these relationships, I often ended up being the oldest and most wizened voice at the age twenty three. I was now on my fourth platoon radio operator who, within weeks, would be shot through his elbow ending his days in the Marine Corps tomb before in April, I lost to radio operators in one day the first shot. Through that the hand by the end, by an enemy sniper ass, he held the receiver of our pr, see twenty five radio in the middle of a firefight. Luckily, Opportune, if not for him, his handed partially shielded the radio's handset, which survived the bullet. Otherwise, we would have been isolated, surrounded by hundreds of mobile and highly adept enemy soldiers. On call Abby trolls that ranged far away from our company headquarters. The tactical radio was our sole means of communicating our position and to call in our till a resource and met of acts. This
of course, was why the enemy loved to shoot at it, an hour later second radio operator been blown off his feet, below the knees in both legs by a booby trap, as we assaulted, a ridge ready, operators did not have much luck in my platoon by the time I left the will. I had gone through six. Two of my original three squad leaders had been killed. One by an enemy rocket and the other from a gunshot wound to the chest. The third had been shot through the long and in the liver during onset of an enemy ambush. Although grievously wounded, he had survived the fire. Fighting was later medevac to a Navy hospital ship. And so it had been for the officers who would initially staffed our rifle company the first
commander been killed. Three weeks before the second platoon commander had been lightly wounded less than two weeks before and within the next few weeks would suffer serious gunshot wound in his upper fi a bullet narrowly missing it. An artery, had been lightly wounded and be seriously wounded a month later Well, let's set the stage my start final LE couple days and in basic school, because one of the most important watch it. Speech, but one of those who most important speeches that I had listened to during my preparation time was given that there was a brutal tenant Carl who was assigned to the basic school who asked to talk to the infantry, lieutenant swim,
somewhere in the seventies of our two hundred and forty three who finished sexual were assigned to the infantry and on the sky was, highly respected, he'd been and enlisted Marine arrive from one you will GMO, he had been up commander in Korea, recipient of the Navy Cross and had just finished commanding battalion in Vietnam, and he said I I want you to understand something. Vietnam is the hardest, War, the Marine Corps has ever fought, not so really because of the casualties which, by the way, ended up being higher. Even then war war too, if you combine, killed and wounded, more killed him and were were too but because does the living conditions that that these Marines are facing. We want this, exert your readings sort of in the middle of an of an operation
In addition to those types of other experiences people Rarely understand an enemy I got the America of then in particular the American took up today what it was like be in Marine Infantry in Vietnam, tickly of all all of them, but particularly out inquiry, Numb Province were for, we fought, the marine sport and five provinces in in Vietnam country which is where a case on up next to the DMZ to a ten which were way was, I wouldn't worry of dynamic, where, where we fought I went in point, ten was also a province and is not a province now, but a plurality and almost majority of the Marines killed in Vietnam works
and calling on problems. Give you a really major battle. I mean arson, operations. There are notable. In short, rancour law, but you know the country would would even recognize them. These were squad, platoon company, size, engagements and- but where the constant constant combat activity and where the Marines operated were usually outside of anything we didn't have tents. Barbed wire. We have caught, who didn't electricity didn't have hot food, didn't have clean water it was an extraordinary rough environment in terms of hygiene potential disease and just the wear and tear put up put on human bodies. So you put that on top of the combat side and in on top of what you'd make
and earlier, which is the constant flow of people through the apparatus. That was the combat unit, em the political tensions and in the country you put off that together, you have a very, very tough. Environment, where the Marines lived and also where the young leaders operated so. You're one taking over a rifle pertain in that area called Anwar Basin, I'm just off the plane. With basic school at ten days. Travel ten days proceed little, but leave it. The plane, author oak- and you know the kind get your your timezone straight and in I don't even know what regiment are what division I was going to when I hit Vietnam day. You we got to
actually on Okinawa, or they decided whether which division you were going to go to. Okay, we're looking at the casualty flow. You guys are going to third market if you guys are going to first MAR Div you got a dynamic, headquarters of the First Marine Division, David kind of sort us out to which which regiment we were going to, but they say: okay, you on the first battalion, the time is a delta dealt in Egypt to commander and get on a convoy take off The company had been through some, sir, is combat. In the previous days. I think they had had five platoon commanders and the previous five or six months, so dying delta was the there was no nickname. I couldn't it over derogatory that just gallows humor we kind of like it he's got a deadly dying delta or dog, tired delta, where, but your constantly on move and you know I'm new, an air,
justifiably they're gone. Oh man, a new guy here now. What as always in the realm of leadership, the relationship that you have to put into place, and you don't you know, son some people like to say liked to say: ok when an lieutenant comes in, you can be like the observer for awhile and go along in patrol a what Rarely did those people ever fully take over their platoon you're, the ready, you're you're, not ready, and so on. I pick up my pattern got them on our side of the hill. I explain you know that you, and certainly the field to take over where did you go right into the fire? There are on the move. There are on the move from Liberty, Bridge Henderson Hill, Accompany move. The convoy passed by I jumped off the convoy I worked on a radio to our guard. Our company commander, you before
in item three days and Anwar some. Usually three dozen animal for familiar rightly said this disguised class on a manner and basic school get em out her. Now so I took these guys, our honeymoon the thought of her own and said you know I this: is it Bob timber gunners booked a nightingale, so called us an audition? For a frank, I said all right, I'm lieutenant web, you call me, in it or you call me, sir, and is what I expect an later all out and The things I said, which I think is very important in winter, when you're leading anything, I say what you know, something anything You tell me, I will believe, neither utopia, skies, brown I'll, believe you, and if you lie to me, you're dead meat. And so there was like the hills SK, think he's doing you know, and then we went out that night. I sat down a planned it. We we to the new paramour and went on what my squad leaders did not accompany size, permanent company size, brimmer
got my squad. We got night act, we're going to go here and it was a fool ox got their input, listen, listen, listen, always listen! You'll be in the commander, doesn't mean you know all the answers that it means. You know how to make a decision. You know on how to how to follow through so I figured out tat. I lost into them am figured out a place where we would go really terrific squad leader who was actually acting platoon commander that afternoon, Sarah series on call spit everyone crippling basic school taught. You went out that night, walked and walked into a situation used all of you supporting arms. There are did our thing and that was put to rest, which was actually agree thing and then the other thing which I think is so employed. You don't when you say. No, your people know what's leadership leadership is knowledge. No you people! Now
your job, no their job and know the next job, because you never know when he's gonna happen and you gonna have that next job and its character and part of port of call is consistency and humility before your people and major emerging from what the export about my dad moral courage are different kinds of courage. Moral courage is times. You gotta, take the hits you got away what you believe is right and you gotta stay with it, and no vision and other with what even taken over rife. Put to you know not they knew fairly quickly. I knew what I was expecting, even though I had done it yet but knowledge of people and listening to people. I would go when one of the first a month or so that I was the tumor. I would three hours to set my lines in every night sit down every fighting hole
talk to every one of my marine and you find out. As you know, you find out really interesting things about maybe people things like somebody hadn't gotten paid or somebody got married and she had like you a lot and that's not going to his wife and nobody's taken care of the simple things you know and then the bonds move from there. You just is to reiterate the conditions, because I pulled out this deception, and here we you talk about the conditions, and just to reiterate what you're talking about going back the book here and in the rifle companies we spent endless months, patrolling ridge lines and villages and mountains, far away from tense barbed wire, hop food or electricity, luxuries were limited to what we could fit inside ones, pack, which After a few humps, usually boiled down to letter writing material towel soap tooth brush poncho liner and a small transistor radio.
Who casualties and disease during this period in the war, relatively few Marines would actually survive a full thirteen months tour as members of rifle companies in the Bush of the basin. Move through the boiling heat carrying sixty pounds of weapons and gear, causing a typical marine to drop twenty per cent of his body weight, while in Bush when we stopped we dug Just deep fighting holes and slit trenches for toilets we slept on the ground under makeshift want Hutus and when it rained, we usually took down our Hutus because Wet Poncho shown under illumination flares, making great targets sleep itself was fitful, never more than an hour or two at a stretch from months at a time as we mix, daytime patrolling with nighttime ambushes, listening posts, foxhole duty and radio watches ring warm hookworm. Malaria dysentery were common as well
Trench foot which in Vietnam was called immersion foot when the monsoons came, we respect for was rotating back to the mud filled regimental combat base at an Hoy for for five days where rocket and mortar attacks were frequent and troops manned defensive bunkers at night. That was your rake time, and they called it little d and been fu. There are in order, because your dad aside, that's a little to remember and you we gotta get their sense of humour to virtually other further people gallows rumours would ensure through that kind of stuff and enter, sort of set the tone of the on on the technical side.
You need to remember in terms of what was happening to the country at this time. This was a war that has been going on in had its controversies, But hundreds of people were die every week still every week. I I brought those were not on tv, but I'll be right. There just doesn't work unwise area in Europe. Welcome to keep this copies that if you send it back to me, but this was the cover of Life magazine June twenty seventh night June, twenty seventh nineteen sixty nine- that average weak and this during this period, this was a period of Hamburger Hill, etc. The two forty two Americans died away week. Two of of my rings are in that. What in the poster post tat sixty nine period, which was April may we were losing more than four hundred Americans dead week, even though the warhead for
Americans in had PETE one thousand sixty eight. The list three worst years for combat for Americans, Vietnam were sixty. Seven sixty eight and sixty nine and like the top of the bell curve, we had an in sixty nine. I think we lost twice as many Americans killed as have been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, and yet our work and in all other american people supported this, and I always believed in and what we were attempting to do. However, our screwed up got if you're out here in the end. What basin The one thing that a good right but two or company commander tank commander learned was how to adapt. How to adapt. You couldn't rarely. You could rarely plan
operations. Swear, like MIKE Tyson said about a fight everything's great. Until the first time he had hit any given patrol or day in the unwieldy, symmetrically nerves, Arizona Valley you could hit you know, some idiot with not idiots- maybe some smart smart individual or small group of people with a couple of grenades, or you could hit a main force. We call unit which was heavily north vietnamese or You could hit a large for large force nor we at which we fought in May of nineteen sixty what we ve nine. We fought with the ninetieth regiment in Arizona value for eight days and in an eighth night we had on North vietnamese division and base area, one twelve right off from where we were the mountain started. Into louse, with the horseman trail that sort of thing
we had a view. A fine of the com regiment, which was rather rare than independent regiment. First BC regiment. We had to queue Acuity third main for ports battalion will operating out of the Arizona Valley in you had a lotta cats and dogs. And the other thing was this area it basically been written off by american or planners in terms of the d polarization. You know, they're bringing them into the soft vietnamese government at that time they categorize villages Intel categorized villages a through ii in terms of loyalty to the south. Yet Montgomery A was totally loyal, aims totally on the other way, and then I had category five, which was politically hopelessness and by nineteen fifth.
He ate. You know that the country was divided. Nineteen. Fifty four million people came south, including my my wife's entire family. Not very many, what north, basically cadre, went north and they trained and in nineteen fifty eight They started. Moving back into central Vietnam, humans idea was that or was doing is planning was, was to cut off Central Vietnam first Unarmed, and so you had to assassination squads move into into this area and by nineteen sixty one they were killing. Eleven government officials a day that was by John Kennedy- account when he decided to start increasing our troops there. So the villagers had had their fights big,
Fifty eight heavily fifty eight to sixty two that time period and those who are staying with with the communist basically had kicked the people who worked lot of to denying and some of them later to Saigon. So out where we were you. I say this because operationally deep populated villages that we know that we operated in, they had big family bunkers they were very You know, there's stoic when we went through their people were up in the mountains. We hadn't we head no illusions that they were going to be moving to our our side least during the I never thought to what was gone. The way that it did, but at least during the period that we were there, we were talking about this a little bit before. But I want to call this won't one point from the book: gum
most every marine who has ever fond close, combat unreleased stories of short round stray rounds. Misdirected shots accident discharges and other chaos resulting from friendly fire mortar, artillery and strikes can easily wander from their intended targets. Sometimes, due to map error and other at an other times because of human error. Historically, friendly fire incidents during mobile. Close combat operations make up about ten percent of casualties. Intramural firefights can be doubt among friendly units that misidentify their fellow infantrymen, particularly while moving through enemy terrain at night- and you got one incident The forty six helicopter approached the perimeter ready to drop four days load too. We gonna circle overhead flying for cover the high highly vulnerable resupply helicopter, which would soon be hovering above the battlefield and slowly descending into the small dirt clearing we had scraped out to make a landing zone, at the centre of our perimeter the stroke.
Flashed showing the pilot where the land but circling the weed beds, one of the gunships mistook the straw blight for the tracer bullets of an enemy machine gun the who we immediately power toward us in a low attack line that came in just above. Our heads stripping are weary, beleaguered preliminary perimeter, its machine guns, spitting out hundreds of seven sixty millimeter bullets climbed a small sand dune to urinate at an empty away from the perimeter poncho Hutus and radios of my pull command post, where he was machine guns sprayed back and forth inside our lines, kicking up a trail of dust spots just below my feet as stood in the open after one past the Huey, was finally waved away back into it. Circling defensive labs around our perimeter. Exposed as we were. It seemed a miracle that only one marine radio operator near the straw blight in our camp
many command post was hit, taking a bullet in the stomach Well, I had one among among many and when you're, for when year fighting. So so close, and actually that that incident occurred not to after an after an arc light strike, we were doing on an arc light. Is one of the great ironies. If I might made digress just a little bit, because I think it's important to point out that. In our operational, concepts we never used be fifty two north of then, whenever an until nineteen seventy two, the Christmas bombing of Hanoi and when I go back. I've been back to Vietnam, twenty eight or less twenty nine years. I speak the enemies I mean
We still have our disagreements, but I go back there and when I first started going back to the Vietnam, an early nineties. Everybody wants to talk by that eight days. Everybody You know when they did this and they were living under the illusion that they were withstanding American air power. When we had these lighter craft, like John Mccain aircraft come in and you don't can the runs when, if somebody had made a different decision and made it awards war. Somebody met a different decision. Things might have might have happened differently, but we did yours arc, light on the error that we supposedly were were trying to salvage you know gone to island. You know we lit that place up. We were are our but he was, I think three. Licks away when one that, that article eight landed and I was holding onto the ground, move into the right and the left. You know how many
three pounds of bombs will get dropped and others have got some statistics and thereby thousands and thousands of pounds of of three three fifty five fifty to Israel over. Actually, I think in there but not the number. But you know so. But to do the earth, the friendly fire incidents and how close it was you know we the way that we would mark our. Areas where, when you're on closer and not environment, isn't about the helicopter hitting our our guy. That was no mistaking the strobe forum, a machine gun round, but in general you always run your strikes parallel realise Gus, don't want him to drop short and drop on you. So they have to make a run and we put our panels out, usually sometimes weep a small but into better with their air panels during the day and
so they knew they'd make run before they drop in solid moodily. Okay, now you're too close now you're not or what? We had one during this period were. We were Fighting the nineties regiment, turn the Arizona in May. We were running in air strike against in India Unit a tree line, but forty minutes away and we had a force Come on you and air force, a fire it's, not a bomber, I mean we use for, but so they have for peace, they're coming in at I don't know four hundred and fifty knots whatever it is near there looking out the side of their window, to see to see what's on the ground, so We run in the the force Michael tune. Actually was we had a rear security in the perimeter Waller reduced Anna they made their run, and then they came on the second run and the afore dropped on us.
Actually it bounced right outside, our perimeter and then, what the hell are you doing here going over the top of it, so I turned around to start you. I want to go on the company c B and ask them what the hell's going on. And through this gradual of bushes, and they always Marines Runnin rather than the other way. They had bounce and we call a snake nape. You know that Snake was the way like a kind of a propeller would break out of the detailed arm it. You know when you drop in and luckily, the that had broken off with his bond wanna hit, but I turned around and you guys, I see this thing fly through others- a body his greeting flying through the air and go on down where the law of the and I'm going in and all these guys are run any other way, and in that
That bomb had had landed on the pack of are eighty ones. Ethel artillery radio outbreak packages Pack board, dead centre that they had gone off. Curtains, and the other thing is nightmares were one of the things you learn is and in when you we operate like a thief, rains did is all be responsible for the person behind you, not the person, in front of you, If you lose a person in front of you, stop don't try to catch up with them. There. There were a number of friendly fire incidents were somewhat but yet yet lost trade. Catch up and up to the on the flank, of the main unit and you haven't had a moral firefight likely we didn't have that happened in my company, but it happened in the fisheries. So you stop. It can't find it
see the gun front you stop and then. If then, if you can't see the person behind you, then you retrace the exact route that you ve been onto. Go pick them up some You know there were lessons that were lard and put into place. We always talk about the fact that, men and life was but my buddies, platoon commander with me. He and brain wrote books with me, but he was an you if you would ask him before he went to remedy if we would have blocked blue you. Situations he'd been like others know boss, where an me same thing, you know like it seem like it, especially in this teams it was. I call that never that will allow never happen, though never happen and sure enough. I mean there in that book in our in our first book we and write about three different. Twelve chapters and freedom concern friendly fire, because You have to be more concerned about, while none our concern about you, you had to be at least as concerned, about conflicts, and you know we would hang. We would hang
You know giant aircraft bales months once my guys would take a building for a sniper of watch position often times. If there is the question about where they were, they hang giant airplanes right out. The wit Reich as soon as they start shooting in the enemy newer, where we want to make sure that their friendly's knew where we were just as bad, so the other, the the the friendly fire problems, happened, but when I came back and I started running training- I wouldn't use those and and and they happened to a hundred percent Annabelle tunes and I put through training a hundred per cent of them had had been blues. You know, with paintball or with the laser tax system that we use because its things. No one thinks it can happen to them. You know the other, the other part of the debate really frank. In the the areas where we were operating in. Oh you You just weeks a night acts out every night. No, you do we moved every three four days now
rumor. And out listening poses M listening posts and ambushes after dark You know you got reach there, they don't really know where they are united. They don't have a map to treat people. To map Sometimes they are outwardly supposed to be, or they were, they think they are and sometimes you know get somebody who's. Getting a little play Kiki. You know he'll, say: well, we don't have to go out there. Willis, let's just go sit in this bomb crater here and they had an instant before I got to the company where there was a fire. Team that was sitting in a bomb creator about fifty meters up outside lines and guy stood up like two anymore. Take a leak in the region on one shot him you know the guy who shot him a minute, not being a chaplains assistant. I mean you live without the rest of your life
by the time I got to be company commander, I put something into place which was very effective, and that is but forcing I would do is, I would send out my night acts when it was still light, and I would send him what I called a day pause. The listening, post out to an outpost further the way the ambush to us, I would have them walk by the site, where their ill quietly check it out. And then go to up to a pause, Ike metres away. Whatever so, and then, when it got dark, they both were, the internet, known terrain, the illusion O p coming back toward the perimeter, so they had a sense security there, the ambush having research d, the ambush moving back into it, and then I would Mordred a pause,
and the first time I did that I had an ambush out about clicking have away call me I'll, be advised you drop and mortars on those that you are not where you supposed to be what it. What are you gonna? Do if you, if you hit something you know what do you know where we're going to do what we are really drop rounds on? You got everything real straight and when in doubt, drop borders, other people and make sure. Well, if you knew where the mortar you're, not where you spoke to bayonets, gonna get a lot worse. If you get hit out there, that little solve that problem you talk about it. What this back the book I walked every square kilometers writ of those ridges and rice fields. I fought many those villages, I was wounded there and here is where I and my fellow combat veteran stand on one side of a great impassable divide with the rest, the world on the other
because every one of us knows that if our lock had run out or of some one, among us, had made one inadvertent mistake. We could gotta died there you can be as one thing about, I've already diabetes before, I would say: twenty five to thirty percent of our casualties were eighties, more support. Shot, modest apple, moods, Bert with an idea, there's nothing more demoralising or booby trap, as we call them the takeover. Night. The casualties are large and others. Nowhere to put your anger at an inn, on the on the outside. Of that you go well, you know that easily could have been made. You can be a hundred percent right and so be dead. We had one device on a night move every
a member of my platoon stepped over it on it on a narrow, While I was walking. Fourth, fourth bring forth marine and in a column and the last item here brand new guy. I put him, tail in charley- was accompanying wreck leading battalion embryos accompany move and it was some branch on the trail or somethin Kaboom nineteen casualties and an ambush so you're for those EU that are in the military when you're moving at night, specially pre night vision, then, the only way you can do it. You have to be closer to the person funny you cause, you gonna be able to see him, and so what that does and you'll be within within Europe, and sometimes when it's really dark, you be able to touch the person and funny you. So therefore, if someone hits we, I d or you get ambushed the casualties
Greece dramatically because you're just altogether to add one thing about Ahmadi on. That is, I think, when we got there, they had a hundred and forty note ideas on the board and give it time, and there are a couple different incidents. One would in particular that sticks in my mind, was we are putting in not seventeen precarious Asian reminds platoon boys out providing external security with contracts, and I guess he's his truck sat on an I e all night, and they are right when they were about to move. It went off, and took the front of the truck. What that, luckily, nobody was killed, but it sighed nothing. You can shoot back at. You can't really prepare for it. Yeah. Sometimes you gotta get lucky. We had a similar thing where we we will go into a combat outposts in a convoy of dispute, our seals hadn't do a convoy or hand combat outpost. When my
Point mannerly driver. Someone said he, I think, there's something ahead of us in the road stops the vehicle, I'm actually watched him. He gets out looking underneath the vehicle, the flashlight, to look and see what they get myself, whom this doesn't seem good, could didn't identify anything we role through. We get to the combat outpost. In a couple hours later, the dagger clearance team Kangaroo and found a triple stack. You know hundred twenty millimeter mortars that would have killed every one in the vehicle for sure, if not a few others. So a son it's better to be lucky than good, and for those you out there, if you think you're on an idea, maybe not the flashlight approach. Quietly of I had I do that it was my first point to Iraq, M M saving them and my you d, guys we're doing a targeted at night, but you d guys find a a booby trap and It was in a planner box outside perfect spot where, where at assaulting would stack up- and there was a little
and it was filled with two or three sixty- only mortars that were rigged from the house and so my beauty dig found you just you plug it into the walnut goes off, so there was and there is an actual, a little hole. Cotton. The curtains of the guy could actually sit there when we rolled up boom and so he found the wire saw, went out the window faltered out their finds booby trap, I'm standing there watching him. You know disarm this booby trap and he looks over his shoulder and he says you might now I want to stand here and I was like that's a good point, I'll be a somewhere else. Yeah. You know they are in in this area than this area of Vietnam. Day could become accustomed to alive, are operational decisions. We like them ground we like to get Us-
where you can see some of these rights. Patties were like a mile wide in all of you. If you want a place where you can have visuals and also provide potentials- supporting weaponry for people crossing about, etc, etc. So you know they they picked these You know I know, we had one hill eleven in Arizona ballet whereof We await send one when we re getting a strain features that thing you do. You send a platoon to sweep it. You know first get up sweep it, secure it not just from firm booby traps, but you know for putting your beer Your other units, in the pattern swept it second platoon they found a mine, lewd mine. I left I was gonna put my lines and I would didn't wanna, bring my platoon upon out hill, but with the haven't found a miser ion
left the rested, my platoon on the bottom real open air panel on Mugabe, my radio operator to do move. I want to see. We are brought squad lawyers. We were clearing lanes down into where we were gonna put armoury, When I hear this, boom and look up behind me and some one had moved these people up to the top of the hill. I turned around to see a guy flying through the air with big artillery and I saw all Mugabe I'm Runnin arm hanging by a shred he was standing behind him. So we had casualties on top of a hill breed pretty much. After a lot of other things been through and then the next morning are eighty once Sfo, when we set up a perimeter mordred that afternoon in another
he rolled over the next morning in his elbow went down and he reached up and it was like a piece obesity, ration cardboard, he pulled it covered with mud like like plaster surgery, so nothing lifted up and there was a one- seven five artillery round with the pressure release detonator on that he had slept on all night if he had just rolled over, I got a bit. I think they found fifteen booby traps on that on one hill eventually, so. What a nightmare- and I guess what or a good job on him and I'll getting sound night sleep now he's probably. Fundamental might on their own and their times, thinkin about thirty three lucky here's. Your target talk a little bit about the overall colleague overall,
if the overall occurrence is that we're going on we're beyond. What's just sitting right in front of you, so here we go get. Something else is going on its stem from the reality that, on any given day, three different wars were being fought in the basin. The first war in view conventional, combat against nor vietnamese army regulars and main force vietcong soldiers. This in war was the day we challenge of an insurgency Dominated by a long term, war of aimed at driving american public opinion and troop morale against our own involvement in Vietnam, at the beginning, what became known as the American WAR Communist leader, Hoji men famously predicted for every one of you we kill you kill. Ten of us. But in the end it is you will who will grow tired. The third war focused was focused and precise form of domestic terrorism at.
Point nor history. America's top leadership had yet to fully. Grasp the power and impact of a type of terrorism that went well beyond the traditional notions of military insurgency. Nor did the I'll. Vietnamese government ever find a way to completely counter it. It was Sorry, a largely invisible war of terror and seduction was taking place gaily among the rural, populous, designed to discredit the south vietnamese government. And to drive a murderous wedge between the people and the government, and you go Don't talk about Ar Bernard Fall and his book. No he's a french author who wrote a bunch of books and spent time there wrote a book called hell in a very small place and he warned the the grand am I saying that right, given the VON Dick Vaughan. Or moral intervention cadres these
were groups and what they were doing was the violent acts for psychological, rather than military reasons which The source Of the success of the men and the Dick VON, we simply go on murdering village chiefs, you leaders, teachers and and time malarial teams, thus isolating the Saigon government from the countryside. And you describe one of these situations. There was no warning from around that unseen bend, the air suddenly belched, interrupted quick explosions, piercing our ears and reverberating like an unseen blast, a wind, my adrenaline surged. I counted for three quick, bursts of rifle fire and then a wimp of three grenades, the entire but soon became animated tents. Picking up the pace to a job as we strode toward the noise within a few heart beats a young Vietnamese, wild eyed and gasping for breath collided on the trail, with the appointment of the bull tune, instinctively
Marine tackled the young man and held him on the ground. We did not know it yet, but there had and two others after its attack. The assassination squatted split apart, we would captured the other two more. Regrettably. We would now be able to kill them. The district Meeting had not last very long We were the first Marines to reach the huge I quit deployed marble tune in defensive positions around it. In case there was a second attack that I stepped inside the shadowed, blood soaked room But soon Corpsman and my radio operator came with me within me It's our companies chief corpsman, stepped inside having jog down from the command post on Henderson Hill, their unit, one medical bags would soon be empty of battle dressing. In turn, acquit tourniquets together, We began the ugly business of trio's separating the dead from the near dead and the near dead from those who might be medically saved
inside the huge, my hands, armed arms, trousers and boots had quickly become covered with blood reply. The dead outside lining them up in the field as if they already under markers and a cemetery then covered them up that the feasting flies might find some other place to linger had a problem with lies on the battlefield they buzzed everywhere into our food and onto our open source on an earlier morning, I counted more than a dozen floating inside my canteen cup. As I hated a mix of water and see ration hot chocolate, foolishly, I'd bitten into them thinking they were chunks of chocolate. We care out the wounded on the or for the huge we had found them wriggling and turning like worms among each other, as they sought to escape the ankle deep syrup of blood and innerds. I it is the district chiefs young jeopardy, deputy who stood out from the others due to his fancy close blown.
According to a family altered by the blast. He was frozen in death with one arm raised in the air ass. If you were trying to catch their grenade that killed him. That hand was gone, nothing but top of a firearm remained its way Tend sticking out randomly like on spliced electrical wires approach, an old woman who is leaning back against a mud wall with a stand, look on her face, her joy dropped and her eyes stared. Unbelievably at nothing. I thought she was merely in shock. I pulled her arm and immediately recognized the lack of muscular response of the dead. I took a closer look. And saw that she had taken a square nickel sized piece of shrapnel in the middle for forehead just above rise. And so on as I waited in the mark. It did not get any better. This was the war. We were losing perfectly summarizing. Bernard falls observation,
this morning the vehicle we're not asking for anyone support. They were asserting their control. For all of the bombs. We dropped many of them so randomly that they killed people dead. They killed the very people we are trying to help and for all the for all of US enemy soldiers we killed. Our leaders did not understand the cold focused violence perpetrated by the other side. They had deliberately were killed a room full of their own people I went act for psychological rather than military reasons, as a warning Everyone in the basin that it Was a crime punishable by death? To can attend a political meeting. House by the other side. True, I may, let me see. If I can, I can go back to the three points. That you read about an. This elaborate a little bit
There were three wars, at any given day Like a little bit about an earlier on the street conventional side unit against unit, and, as there is no question we we defeated those forces. Finally and in people during the war were talking about the body count, the body count, the inflated body count, etc, etc. In nineteen. Ninety five Hanoi admitted they lost one point: four million soldiers dead. One point: four million soldiers dead. Lost fifty eight thousand south vietnamese white I really want to say something about because I think there have been disrespected by history. They lost due to an fifty thousand dead and so We did our job was our main job, the second or you're talking about the guerrilla war. I think we did well but We could have done better, one of the things that Bernard fall. Talking was how our
it supporting arms? Are we used? We used we heavily used artillery mortars, any sort of things and in the villages it seemed kind of random the communists, we're very focused, you know lots the battlefield, but how they used up outside the battlefield very focused on who they were, who they were after in addition to like, showing that they could. They could meet up with us, but even even on a warm in we adopted in that area that I operated, and you know by the time. I've been therefore find much. I understood the tempo that place. I understood where they were they were were they had been. I could anticipate them. We did some. I think some really great things by the time I got to be a company commander out there in terms of knocking
knocking them off balance, keeping the morale of our troops up in a showing them that we we really, we could go where they were and we could figure out what they were going to do. The third was the key and I will say it. I want to say a couple of things about that. First, to this the south Vietnamese. The motivation of the South Vietnamese, I think, has been misunderstood. I didn't understand this, when I was in Vietnam, I understood this a lot better. When I got back from Vietnam, I started working with the vietnamese community here up here. One thousand nine hundred and seventy five. Helping them understand a political system that they were moving into in owed their they came. They came here, they were very, they were organised into community groups say they knew that they. We're going to put a future in their kids. You know from day one it was you get a job. But meeting with them get a job get your kids in school, the net generations gonna succeed,
but also day able to explain in a way that I never got out there were. I was about what it was they were trying to do and how you don't you if you could the communist approached. This very stalinist coachman was he made me, may have been a nationalist, but he studied the commentary and in more go for, like seven years, He knew the tactics that we're going to be used to eliminate the opposition, vietnamese opposition and also put the markers, the south Vietnamese never found a way to totally responded. This any were constantly getting their leaders, they had a lot of corruption. Culture, is a Mandarin culture, there's a lot of corruption and in the in culture with large, when you get people in positions of power to the big temptation in Mandarin system, but They were saying, despite
I mentioned earlier about the assassination programmes. It were not for we understood and in our country there were say the people repose, the war were saying, the South Vietnamese are Sakharov, they won't go out there You know we have a district chief in DNA. He lives in his villa. He has a great life. He won't go out to the Anwar base. It ends our company commander, who part of his first or he had done his appeal occasion. Offshore working with them said we're gonna get him out here We're gonna get him out her we're gonna protect him. And they found out about that and, as as I wrote in the book emanated. They killed Seventeen of their own people in one little room in the District and his aid, not just two. And the signal that signal was well understood. By the people in these areas and
we were doing was not as well understood even by ourselves, one of the, You know the most interesting moments for me was, when I heard on I swear to you my tour I had a marine who was getting courtmartialed two main for heating, and so you will not, my company anymore but he I'm gettin core much. I call on his landlady regiment, all three shop. You know the court martial one. I don't You don't have a lawyer, I can talk to it. Can you come and help me? I sent her and I got permission to go into then I go so I went to the three math headquarters. They had this great dining hall. You know that you had to try to get to Soho I went over the three math It had dinner and I went to a bar and does this woman, we vietnamese woman was working, behind the bar when she had a black diamond soon into outside, and none
so she was young. She saw me and I'll droopy and mustache. My boots are blonde. Definitely in my hair's a little longer, I definitely don't belong at three MEF headquarters. She said you were your phone their idea. Where are you and I say, in an wants, uses on from dialogue which is was major town at the corner, eastern Corner, the Arizona and she said you're doing so much good really, and she said she said, you know why I wear this, that they killed my entire family. She said in dialogue, heard her father was a police officer. They came in. At night. They killed him by. She was shot everybody, but her kill, killed her husband's Ann Arbor. He was just had just been killed. She said you we
we can go places. Now we couldn't go three years ago. You know you are, you are winning. In its first time, anybody at ever ever said that to me Other com it needs to be made, and that is that the south vietnamese leadership Jerry leadership. My age, there will, I really find leaders in there and even even David Hack, worth the owner who said in all this. Not vietnamese was going be flying over Saigon by nineteen. Seventy five also said emphatically to me when I was interviewed him if you'd gotten these pour into position they would have. They would have I'm next what one that they would have survived socio would have survived, like South Korea, Western he's my forty eventual better solution so that they have been, I think, libelled in history and terms the competence of of law there are really good leaders and people and soldiers and rates and that that's
and that's from your perspective, what were you doing? Joint patrols, them. Well, here's the interesting thing, one of the reasons the the combat Temple went up in early, sixty nine, Was it Nixon had been elected president? The communist were very smart at keeping in their military operations to our politics. Sixty four Gotha talk and sixty eight not the president out at six thousand, eight hundred and seventy two, the Easter offensive. What's your Karl Reeder was that his name was was talking about so eloquently in one of your truck and they wanted Next Nixon was going to meet president to honour in Guam in June of other nations, DE nine. They wanted the Americans to say they're getting out of there I don't know that I get. I couldn't see there when I was over there going here. This is what's happening, but so late,
April all may Hamburger Hill ninetieth read every place lit up four her and fifty people died. But Nixon announced vietnamization, it's been mocked. Should not have been marked. In the Arizona Valley where, when seen South Vietnamese out near Arizona Valley, I was out there, recommended broader range, or do you no doubt knit of got waxed and we actually moved on For you know: they're they're their perimeter when they were jumping on helicopters to get out and then I saw a unit the first urban regiment out there, and these guys we're good me and I will I would have operated with them any day and I ve got There are many, many friends who were Orban in Vietnam, who will talk to you about what happened when the Watergate Congress took over. You know, Dixon resign. And then you know this and I
Congress came in and one of the first substantive votes they took was too cut off all Opel mental appropriations to the south. These, aren't there. What's that was There was no reason for that. What are our forces or even on the ground. Over there and at the same time, the North Vietnamese Four and they act them when they were reposition that reposition. I have. I have a really great frightened. You know who when I was listening to your show that we're talking about the American who had spent nine years of prisoner of war and like all whose here now spent twelve years on the battlefield was right your command Kurdish, twenty, eight recipient of there. Of honour in thirteen and a half years locked up five years on Conic box
He was down to two artillery rounds per tube per day when it was trying to reposition his force when the sitting hit so it a very complicated war, not trying to like you know, ree you re imagine what was happening but idle. Started the end result would probably be kind of like what in Iraq. The sort of US slowdown in sort things out, rather than what happened going back to the book, while my mother slept so far it fully, and so if we dreamed. I was by two enemy grenades. While clearing a series of well camouflaged bunkers bunkers were built, side of bamboo thicket at the edge of a murky stream bed. The fur grenade, peppered me lightly on the face and shoulders the second day needed behind me, just
Fresh out the man who, through it and the second soldier who is in sight at the same bunker, Hidden head back arm and leg The grenades concussion lifted me into the air and threw me down a hail into the stream still carry shrapnel at the base, my skull and in one kidney from the blast, but this where quarter size, peace that scored the inside of my left need. Joint and lodged against the bone of my lower leg would eventually change the direction of my life. Having for months Peter be seen far worse? Among many of my Marines, pay. A great deal of attention to my wounds, meadows into our horror I was treated for several days at the battalion aid station. Some of the chaperone backup in my head,
An arm was removed and some was left to work its way out. Naturally, as my skin healed over time, the scars pushing shrapnel out onto the surface, returned to the Bush as soon as possible, but the wound, went deep into the joint and had not completely healed. Mark of the rice paddies in the field of the basin bills. It soon became infected. I do not know what at the time, but the infection was moving into the bone causing per its septic damage, and then you go to in order Your company executive officer, he let you that there's a bill it opened up for, force Service regiment on Okinawa and for those I don't know what is this is like a plush billet, and here you go if I accepted the assignment for me. The Vietnam WAR be over within weeks, and an assignment on that
ain't and gorgeous island of Okinawa. We give me several months to decompress from battlefield combat before I returned home. Life's gambles, are sometimes settled in mere man. What's weighed against years of previous thought and decades on the other side, where one might reflect on the wisdom involved in a sudden decision listen to the executive officer and fire inside myself, pressing the radio handset against my face, as I leaned against an old grave in the middle of a desolate village. Those seconds became ass. They to say in the marine corps. Teachable moment. But I could not say yes. After all, the years of preparation and months of hardship that I had endured with one infantry battalion in this small but violent section of a seemingly never ending more, I could not simply walk away.
Bonds formed on the battlefield are often is unbreakable. Is the strongest family ties? In a word, I felt obligated my father service, the country defined myself, respect more to the point. I loved leading infantry Marines with greedy alone, they face the greatest dangers. They took the greatest risk they absorb the highest casualties they had the fewest creature comforts, but they also stood face to face and Toto with the enemy every day. And they answered in their honour to no one taking a deep breath, I finally said: no, stayed in the Bush in September,
I was given command of dying delta, no complaints, no turn. During that time,. I'd served under four betancur manners and three regimental commanders, and as you know I mean is, it's a majority of people who will go through this experience. No there are. There are few bonds in your like tighter than the people that you have served with under extraordinary, consensus. I once wrote in one article I dont say I would trust my life to these people because I already have. And I knew I knew what I was doing
I knew the terrain I felt like I belong there. There's There's a scene in fields of fire were snake squalor do you really go on an operation? He goes and sits on a bunker. Out across the parties at the at the Lord pouring down the mountains and served here as this is where I belong and my third regimental commander, who the real piece of work and with noble back pulled me in not I had to purple hearts as an officer in the Bush and which was against it asian order. As As he said when I left, said the sky came in with tears as big as Horst herds in his eyes. Other than that
it job. I've ever has been a rifle company commander, just enough independence to really be innovative mince, but still totally connected with your people I've been very privileged in my life to be able to maintain contact, not only with the people look but many of the people I served with, but also with the operating military. And I learned when are you. When I was in law school that's where I finally ended up, but I needed- I need to screw my brain on and figure out the don't by like I found out that I could make money by writing like the pure formula. Here you know I to actually get people to pay me to indulge my curiosities. So I was a boy was able, among other things, to do Lee with the military are known. Terry, no one from places I was in Beirut,
nineteen, eighty three: when I covered it for PBS and actually I Left right before the building blew up, I stop every year or over twenty third and think about that. That was a good battalion force, but I need more aid. You know you ve been around his long enough. You can smell a good good unit You can tell a bad. You know they were a good. You know they were well lead. I was able to be in Afghanistan As an embed over their spent been able to spend time working on veterans issues spent five years the Pentagon. So you. Can you can take this sort of affiliation and camaraderie n n habit still help in other things, you do in your life. So that was that that was it right when the when the colonel brought you in- and he just said- hey like, I don't care, you're going,
Europe, Europe, you you're, not gonna, stay any more and there was no. I remember as a motorbike about that now there was now was I found out. I had two per arts in ICE. I was on the original in original three shop from the last two months and then came home and then start Maya such women with the joint and my legs are acting up right now and by the way you you wrote this all Balkan you spent. I think it was a half or maybe a quarter, a paragraph from maybe three sentences. Talking about you, attacking enemy, bunkers, thrown grenades and getting wounded fighting on. If that's that's the that's that's where you received the Navy Cross for and well. I just want to point out that, sir, that takes humble to new level free right. This book, you give yourself a assented, sir, to Ally Area
there's one I decided right feel too far Why was it I was in law school, there was a There is a very important concept, the stuck in my mind and solar. Is that the people who went over and interrupted their lives lot of em to spend one went to her. Record. What home have never been fully? appreciate have never been fully understood. You know in what they did getting. That down you know that the environment in which they served- and you know that We talk about courage, physical courage, which is maybe shoot somebody there's moral courage which is standing up for what you believe in and having the courage to say it. To those above you and sometimes you have to say to those who were
who were blow? You know you gotta do this? That's all there is to it. And then there is what I might call daily courage. You know Daily courage is taken a hand- God don't you and something with it Tom Who was one of my squanders? Was he's now passed away he was interesting. It was an interesting ear for me in the Bush than been in Vanderbilt University was favour the war. I wasn't a debate on the war in the sky, we suppose there's going to Canada. Turann said if you, this is such a great war why don't you just go at the endless say with very, very smart? Knowing I could put things get down. You can talk, talk me about different stuff. He got shot. And he used to keep on your by had this Zippo lighter with your slogan on it and his his slogan was like
does not enjoy a good hand but learning to play a poor hand. Well, and that takes daily courage, in. We had an in our inopportune. Who triple amputees. One one died before they got him out of it not but Deal Wilson, the other one, STAR recipient one of the most pause. People have ever met, if you, if you met him, you wouldn't you would know the head had lost. Arm, but you wouldn't it only Billina. Can you wouldn't be able tell he lost one leg up but I also thine, the other one downloaded. Takes day Wilson. Fifteen minutes to get out of bed. That's daily courage, Never never complies heal well, I was gonna, be an inner fell. What else? What else would I be doing here MAC Margarethe are blown off
my below the shoulder when got a tattoo says, cut on dotted line when I and for the Senate, you and I say to run for the Senate nine months to the day before the election, with zero money zeros camp pain, staff. I do said I'm gonna do this, for Skype CALL was Mugabe. Night manager, Tutsis, orchid, lounge and National Tennessee as it man I e somebody. I can trust when you four hours a day you gotta be my driver who says I got one Armas, I dont care you're. My driver What is job moved into our basement for a year I couldn't have done it without any great great friend of sun gems through by the way. So that's that's daily courage in that soon. That's really when Look at the ramifications that place having people understand. How this week in many ways, positive for our country to that's my girl
So these are your in law school and you know you ve mentioned several times before, but that's point, you decide: ok, arms are right it. Why did you decide to write a novel and set a write, a book of your own experiences, and I mean I know- and I want to get into a little bit of enclosed, a major amount of cross over but his ear. Specific reason why you said you know what I want to get a novel instead of a memoir. Well does do I started writing my last year in the marine corps I want. I was put on the sector, the Navy staff and was on the smoke or hold, and I you know I is as we discussed earlier. I am reader I loved I loved her right. I was writing from my job. I wrote three magazine articles in that year one and was very controversial issues about the rules and missions of the Marine Corps, how they were paper and amphibious force and they were doing always other things, and I did it make a difference in my bottom line. Would you better believe it makes a difference?
one marine general on any of these J staffs anywhere, except at the. If the Navy gives one in the marine corps wasn't even presented when it decided that that was their mission, it was the chief enable operations and I was five years old I got in big trouble. You think I got in big trouble and some of these other things you know the chief of staff of the Marine Corps was calling me into talking to me and they not order to counter article to be written what I had said, because their reading accuse Jesse US of this way to start some sort of a campaign. So I have borne the power, the written word, and then I wrote my Where's your law school out? I looking and Sir Lucan Micronesia and watch happen after the Vietnam WAR? What should the United States basing system look like in the in the Pacific? I was reading a lot of world war, two stuff and you'll Ronald in the desert was, fighting from what he called the interior position
logistically shortening logistic lines being able to hit the Brits when they were after him and hit the Americans when they were after me, and I said we need to develop an interior position and and Pacific Asian that's Guam tenure. I got really got it into this wrote my first book actually that will not worked. For the governor one Duenna, studies, so then I'm sand. I'm listening to the stuff that people were saying about those who serve. I think I met three people in three years and Georgetown LAW school we've been in combat in Vietnam, one thousand eight hundred people student body, same age group think was wrong I actually was sitting and constitutional law class when they were debating the or powers act and they got to be very vicious. You know the people who served they are always stuff. They never said to my face their sandy each other in a classroom, classroom holy shit. That's what they really believe I started. Writing the last chapter fields of fire sitting in constitutional locally, and then
as I wrote it- you know the first time I wrote this book seven times cover to cover engineering yuri in an hour, I never want to agree to running class. I start reading the people I thought were the great different way, not for enjoyment but restructure. New sorts of Thank Hemingway, Steinbeck falconer. Graham Green, the british and irish poet. So the first time through a sort of like Just- It was very good catharsis and then I got The point where I should know I've got a piece of literature here every one of these characters is a little bit different and it is it escalating moral drama, in terms of how they are reacting to operating in this particular area? and so the power the literary power of the novel was was more. Portent than me telling I was their kind of stuff
universality to it in jeopardy. Who came help me on those who would discovered Leon. Yours was editor in chief of Putney, but one time just We encourage me to stay with it and I are very lucky that I did because I did the book survived. Twelve rejections everything else and is still out there. No, so an an odyssey. I kind of answered that question for myself and I think when people read it, they'll figure out what why you did Has it does it? Has this power or to it that you couldn't have done just writing your own story, even though your own story is is very similar and has probably parts that are just even more impact full, but the way that this ties together- and this is this- like the iconic novel and I will say about Vietnam WAR, but really like you, to put this over just war,
you got these characters in it. You know you you're too talked about one of you got snake whose, like the street, smart bad ass marine. You got Lieutenant Robert. Lee Hodges, whose who's the lieutenant you got, the senator who's. This Harvard kid: the bodies can play the french Horn and then Marine Corps Ban and hence have faith in the basin. You got TAT man who's that the mexican Point Man, you got the term. The interpreters. We call them Dan Cannibal, flaky, bagger, rabbit Gill and be be cakes, sergeant acids and in all these characters. In any known, as I read this, it was just You know. I pray you register of ten years ago or something maybe fifteen years ago, and when I read it again, amidst infinite leap, I mean, discuss on older and I understand things more. I guess I hope, but
just the way that each one of these characters and and here's something that I realize I was reading this book first of all we know these characters like these characters. They exist in real life. They exist in combat they listed do exist in the seal teams. They exist in the marine corps. They exist in the army. I met all these characters, they're all out there and they're all out. I work with businesses now therein those businesses as well there and that these are human beings and And that's incredible and then Put them in this again. I'm I'm interested always moaning about human nature, but you put his men in this environment. That is what you ve talked about, and this environment is gonna is gonna, reveal human nature, incredible ways, and You just capture so much of it and. I mean I want to take a look at win. Win colleges, kind of arrives in
Vietnam and he sits down with major Otto. So here we go Does it feel to fire going back to book Major Otto, the battalion executive officer, Sap behind his field desk and examined Hodges record book? he was young for major in his early thirties. He seemed pleasant enough. The Hodges who had expected a hatchet faced revealing warrior. After hearing of the majors background, Otto had been be commander during his first tour and was highly decorated. His right form was gas, with a six inch purple trough left by a bone, shattering machine gun bullet and yet he had the inquisitive sensitive demeanor of a brooding scholar. He smiled casually Hodges, so you think you're ready, how'd, you stood a loose parade rest in the most heated, the tent. He was scheduled to attend free, more days, regimental indoctrination school, but he had not found it helpful and he had learned to hate them. Dust filled boredom of Anwar. Yes, sir. I'm ready think so. Good
They need you out. There was another lieutenant last night the major wash them closely. Yes, sir, I heard yeah good, old, dying delta, to call themselves deadly delta. Otto chuckled. He had a beaten tone of his voice as if he had seen the ritual so many times it has lost its Mina, meaning. Deadly dying delta hardy watched him dripping with sweat. In the dark heat outside a jeep rumbled past, leaving a wave of red dirt that seeped underneath the tent flap like a creeping frog The distance and artillery batter artillery battery fired mission towards the Arizona territory The major swiped reply then lit a cigarette as an afterthought. He offered one Hodges, no thank you, sir. Major Otto side. You'll learn. He drew deeply on cigarette. Frankly, studying, Hodges YAP, dying delta,
you're not ready. Lieutenant the only way I'm telling you is. I don't want you to panic when you get out there and find out nothing in your entire goddamn life will have prepared you for the Bush, not a damn thing. Yes, Sir You know what I mean: no sir. Jesus Christ, the major dragged again on his cigarette deadly delta yeah, They really caught the shit. Last night I watched it. It was almost embarrassing to admit he still. Don't comfortable about the irony of sitting on a bunker and watching someone else's war. Otto leaned forward absently, rubbing the purple gash on his forearm? Well, What kind of person do you think goes through that shit day in and day out, lieutenant because that's what it is shit and that's the way you take it every thinking day, some something pity ass or something heavy. This. Isn't world war war? We can pull you out to to australian parade after a month, fighting nope and it isn't nineteen sixty five. We
came me. Vietnam routes and accompany out on a two day operation then bring the men back for hot, shower liberty, yeah, that's right, liberty. Lieutenant in DNA When we started week long operations than it was a month now well. We just leave him out there all the time. It's more convenient The major offer Hodges a small, challenging smile, they go wild lieutenant there's nothing you can do about it. You'll go wild to wild, is hell. You spend a month in the Bush and you're, not a marine anymore hell, not even a goddamn person, there's no time no barbed wire, no hot food, no jeeps or trucks, no clean clothes, nothing you're, an animal so its natural, the squat. Will you take a shit, ring worm and hookworm had goop source you roll around in your own filth. You forget how bad you smell dead people. Gotten the goddamn dirt miserable civilian.
It I'll get sorted, boring. You cry when you're friends or killed, but a new friend comes on a helicopter a few days later, the dead friend becomes enshrined. A martyr to friendship, You teach new friend about him and you all remember him, it's very romantic. It doesn't sound very romantic. That's after a month or two but did it when you do it for six or nine or even longer, by Christ. You'll, never shake it which gets in your blood, and you hate anyone who hasn't fermented in his own stench for months or stewed inside a dirt hall, all night wind to kill a man who's trying to kill him first. Major Otto scrutinised, Hodges, oh yeah, I've done a lot of thinking about it something a grunt isn't supposed to do. He chuckled again sort of dry bark. What else can a man do and on our own and it becomes an oasis.
Like a whore lieutenant, I hate it. Like it. When you get back from the Bush, I guarantee so What kind of person can take it for months on end? felt uneasy. He'd expected the major to waive the flag and talk about you. Will GMO then send him aboard the resupply helicopter with fire in his heart. Someone who is very dedicated, sir either that or someone whose very crazy well there. You are that's in a nutshell: you just hit the nail on the goddamn head it's been a long time since I read a word that I mean it's it's the eye caught the iconic conversation between the new lieutenant in the executive officer. You just nailed,
I guess I'm not I'm lucky. I wrote that were NOS twenty eight. Now I I wanted there, couple days here when it, when I started, I said, I am not going to write this book unless the third guy down in a third fire team says this is true This is real maiden through real. However, you want to put it. This is real That was my guide post in terms of all of the the combat sequences and and in this the sort of thing is, you know, doesn't have it be? Dear author, I love you signed author. The way I wish it had been. Were you know the way I would like to present it. I remember that when the book came out there was a young Marine three star. General who had been very helpful when I was trying to help one of one of my former Marines who had
had been out in this area and I sent him a copy of the the proofs and he summoned me, let's workin on health. You summoned me to his quarters and eight than I and he said, could be a Primmer on marine corps tactics with these were not my Marines. I went. Was a will over there. I said, sir. I don't what to tell you, because as honest as I can be and they were my marriage and idle. Have to try to make it. You will Jima to to if we have respect to the to the people with every day when I walked out of that. With him thinking. Oh my god, you know this is gonna be really bad. If you know them the marine corps terms on me for writing a book about Marines and then there was another two star general shots. Battalion commander and been on Taylor Comedy. Was it with them? marine environment even been on Taylor down,
He read the book and he called me read out on a sea one. Thirty firm and rooster penalties He call me said this is the book. This is the book. I say we, you send me a letter, sir, and I say he sent me a letter so when I had this little in our command visit to General Watson. Who is a common? Not when that when the book came out boy, I'm not really nervous about the agenda. Wilson was a hard ass. You know not so I got to see general Wilson might give him a copy of the book in us and, as a general rule, six about and over time. You know it's been mandatory, reading the communists reading list for decades, and I can't tell you how many lives I've gotten from repeatedly staffing seals, I'm here when I was in Beirut, You know as well as a journalist errant. Eighty three there was a was one gunnery
urgent. Who came they told me? I have read your book eleven times. It is a text on on leadership. If you really read it, and at the same time, the IMF, containing also is, if you're, if you're, going to write a novel that last you want that universality, as you say this doesn't just Vietnam is just isn't my experience and so It really is a very carefully drawn moral drama in some these passages retirement Herman years. I still remember I've written of some twenty five times in other than the one you start off with. I knew the words I knew the words we're gonna come out of your mouth, so that is, That was my intention of with with the boy I don't know What can I say it still out there this is almost as I can be, and I know is there
This is not a rough spots in this book, but I don't have to I dont have put it in differently. They. One of the thing I will say is the dialogue may from the Babby benefited from living in so many different places, and when the dialect is carefully accurate and like seven or eight, for american american Dialects and away they say words for sure. Now you you know that it's very clear on that yeah. You know these people, you know that, then, that you are able to capture. You also did a great job, obviously of capturing, so some of the just straight combat and I'm gonna go here just to one little situation. Suddenly there were loud explosions crossed the river, the northern compound literally erupt. It we Corliss rifles flash and doomed again and again, there explosions trees, clouds of dirt inside the compound machine guns and small arms hammered at the Marines, the tube
perimeter fought back red and green tracers interlaced careening into the black air, making weaving patterns in the night artillery battery on the bridge compound reacted. It turns its guns, north and lobby. Dozens of projectiles crossed the river seeking to silence the attack new bright flashes haze of dust grouped around northern compound. Then a moment of anticipatory lull good Rich knew what was about to happen. He wished could tell them in the bridge compound he wished. He could dig a hole in the dirt and come back out in California watch out He groaned, inwardly too afraid the cry. Oh shit, here, comes right now, an avalanche or more around time, from a dozen too to land together on the southern compound, then just above the strand, team. The deep jobs of heavy machine gun, Goodridge, listen to himself whimper. He could not stifle it. It seemed to him a scream that would give them all away.
But he finally realized it was no more than a scratchy whispering wine. The bridge compounds defenders were caught on a we're having to feel like spectators in the northern compounds. Furious defense bodies went flat inside their bunker, seeking cover from the mortar barrage as they did. Streams of sappers poured through the outer wire sliding pipes of Bangalore torpedo to clear pathways to the constantiner. For a moment, they were unnoticed, the explosions they created blending in with the mortars they broke Both sides of the J Shaped Hill, just its hook tossing satchel charges of explodes into the nearest bunkers, half of them anchors on the artillery side unmanned, as their defenders had helped with the fire missions on the north compound were quickly taken by the envious, the rest of the perimeter swarmed with creeping dashing set suppers.
Two bloggers, we're lost just down from third balloons. Last position: the Sapper man, the bunkers after killing the occupants with satchel charges and provided a beach said on the lines a stream of shadows poured into the compound between the bunkers. The first cell of envy, eight at raced pass the bunkers burned an entrance with a washing flame thrower. It ignore the corner of a near by ten into bright red answers from a host of rifles fired from near by bunkers. There was no second wash its trigger manned and its mate lay dead. Beside low smoulders from the torch lit tent on others fourteen crap, quietly into the centre of the compound and encounter to almost identical bunkers in detail did demolished the chapel, leaving the compound, leaving the command centre bunker unscathed after the chapel exploded in detonation that raised a blight bright, flash and level the bunker and smoking heap. Another fierce mortar barrage shook the hill.
The North Vietnamese would attempt to take out more bunkers consolidate then retreat through the breaks in the they had made in the wire speedy. John teamed cringed in the stream bed on speaking wincing as the gun cut loose again, it's blows and seem to be so close that one could reach up a hand and lose it to a bullet each man knew that if you were made an unworthy non toward move revealing himself in any way the Team would not last five minutes. Nowhere to go. Nowhere to hide yeah Well, you don't wanna, be of urine and admire, entered Myers books. I have not once an eagle eye. When we actually think I have read, wants an eagle, great great work, When one now, when we say
The proofs around on the old dame an apprentice, all didn't quite know what to expect a day, the book had been rejected by twelve publishers. Nobody wanted to see the sight of it. The energy apprentice. All John Kirk had been. A naval aviator in in the korean WAR, he was a Harvard graduate. I thought was kind of interesting because when he asked me to come and talk to him, he asked me to meet him at the Harvard club. You no good riches. The hard Guph about? He said. I think this can be the great novel. He said, the Duke great novels of different words go against the grain of prevailing orthodoxy. And he made a deal with me, he said: Five thousand dollars, but Workin was for four years maybe five thousand dollars operate five thousand copies, but put your book on the cover of publishers, weakly and also a major tour should be done and not he said to an actual draft. He had always had a leg of a five page.
Epilogue Goodridge and he said I we want to see more of Goodridge coming back as it would you, like. The twenty eight page version that thirty five page worse over sixty two pages version. Only look at that. I gave like a thirty pages type, big version, but then they started sending the book round before publication date for advanced quotes and got a torrent of them? You know the one one of the advanced courts that I treasured the most was from admire. He had been. The also was a Harvard guy, but he had been a marine in world war. Two had been on your guadalcanal or you would GMO, was wounded in once an eagle which, there's a marvellous burglars, gotta buzz. I haven't read: there was war war and peace is like and pages long, but he did he took one cared, Likely to characterise, but from
failure or one all the way into Vietnam. Although we didn't call Vietnam in his book and one of them was not on a Nebraska farm care, do was endless, stood and you know, got a battlefield. Commission were one, and the other was a. You know was point guy who punch the buttons exactly right, his name was mass and Gale was SAM David, he wrote really good combat seeds and I I know and I loved his book and he said when he when he said isn't this long advanced call on his book? And I just of all of the moment, while you know you said here at last, is the real story of those who were in Vietnam you know devoid of histrionics, etc, etc. Anna at it with that you know when when you read passages like I think of- people like him
reacting to this gamble. You know that at the time because there's nothing out like this at the tunnel as it was the first revisionist novel and I'll. Tell you what I want my tour. I spent a year and a half on those working on a House Veterans Committee D being what what sort of a factual basis for discussion on the Vietnam WAR. How long did people really serve? How many were drafted? How many were volunteers, what It was the make up of the casualties. You know and those who serve, etc, etc, etc. Just trying to lay the whole thing out year by year, so I went out in the shows that idea. That's what I want to talk about it. I will talk about this, but were you know. I had some real moments and also by the way, have been representing a so called war. Criminal problem.
From my first year law school, who represented for six years, he committed suicide halfway through, I clears name exponent of six years, but that wasn't very popular out there, but I had on. I was on a radio show in Boston in the middle of the show disguised stopped. So I get I can't hold us back any longer. Don't you consider yourself to be a murderer? no one. Actually, what I said are not being the Intro american riflemen shy water, I said no man is by nature, a violent animal. And society puts restrictions like knowing me, give you a b c harry. Not society puts restrictions on how that violence is used in, consider myself to be a murderer anymore than you know, a place Ok, so and I had I was on the good morning, Boston and the woman producer so nice to me. It said her right before I go to the store. She said please to hate you guys
She said. No really, I mean hate you thank you for that, and now go on with the screaming off here and it is interesting because data show anything with Cincinnati, which was a tv show, some speaking about the passage you just read, write a little further. In that passage, there is a sequence were there is an enemy soldier who is in the what trapped in a wire and is all in your car blown away, and he starts yelling you who? I am sorry that you all I too high to and somebody else shot up and giant and those woman whose interview me she says he How can you put that in a book your somebody who was trying to surrender who was shot? I said you know that this is the reality. What what was going on so she's that to vote. And she asked the viewers how many of you agree with ninety four percent of agree with that, and I think, maybe we're starting to get somewhere here, not it or not,
lie, uneasy shooting wounded soldiers, but you know in reality is reality. It is once you touch him, then is different and speaking of reality? Being reality in this is a kind of point out some of the reality that in this book one more thing. I want to read from it how'd you like to stand on open our sir That's right, the major smiled Jesus lieutenant. I thought you would have jumped over the dead by now. I on the level We just had a bill. It open up over at special services creation officer, lieutenant rotated early on emergency leave. He had less than ninety days on his tour, so he'll be reassigned from estates. I have the authority to fill the bill bill it from transients through been in country already you're right combat time hospital time. Would you like it the major gibe depth, greening
good duty lots of free time. Stick around Hodges will turn you into a whore mongering drunk. A simple yes and the war would be over. But so what everything else, and for the first time he confronted the truth. Yes, major thank Sir, and the rest of his life, would be anti climax there was nothing on the other side. What does a man do when his wars over wondered Just accept keep fighting it expectancies then lived and, if not fulfilled well at least confronted the ball the red Hills with their sandbag bunkers, banter and frolic of dirt covered grants the fearful intensity of contact it. Deep inside him and he had not yet done enough to be free of it. He suddenly felt superior to the major a creature apart
capable of absorbing combats horror without asking for quarter. Down south his men were on patrol or digging new perimeters or dying, and he was nothing if he did not share that misery. He stared deep into the majors face. Enjoying the one moment of nobility that is months of terror had allowed thanks major But I didn't come halfway around the world to referee basketball games. Do most powerful. And telling sea or one of the most powerful and tell us in seat telling scenes in a novel is the way that I originally ended it which, which is with Mexico, taking her son too
hence and she's, on the one hand, she's trying to ex below due to build some feelings at him about the father. He never knew and the price that he was paying for be half American in in the Can I went society and. She says was, as he says she takes him, a camp Hansen. He can. She can see the Marines, there he could see them. Reasoner is, as was was a good thing that my like them, then I'll be order, and it s like what And then, when I was in the Senate is very ironic. We actually have situation on on. Which was exactly boy, where I was able to help.
A family or marine who were deployed to Iraq and found out. That is the answer. Was pregnant and day arranged For them to be married on the phone and let them immigration issues include issues in all the stuff. In my counsel, Trevor MO was when it was handled when it was handling us a copy fields, You gotta amazing voices. Speaking of sound, I wanna go here back to I heard Recalling talk about. As you were as you are had enough to Vietnam. I would soon drive West heading for California, where Barbara would rent a house across the street from my grannie and I would say,
to fly to Vietnam. My parents would clear their quarters at Andrew AIR Force Base and that had south to stay for, while with my dad's long time, friend, Bud Caldwell as they adjusted to the unknowns of retirement then waited in Florida, Alpha had just been omega was not so Happily done in twenty years. Our lives had travelled full circle. I was now the one who is leaving my dad was the one being left behind. There was nothing left to say. It was time to go we rose from the years, worn couches and began to say our final deliberate. Your stated goodbyes. We slowly made our way towards the front door. Of the farm house, the radio, in the dining room began playing down, boy sung by Johnny Cash. I'm not sure that anyone other than God himself could have arranged the sweet sorrow of that moment. Johnny Cash was my favorite singer.
Any boy emblematic of our long held Scots Irish heritage of military service is perhaps the greatest song ever written about the painful anguish of a father, watching helplessly as his son marches off to war. Oh Danny boy, the pipe The pipes are calling from God two gland and down the mountain side. The summer's gone, and all the rose is falling to. Tis, you must go and was bide, become need back when summers in the meadow or when the valleys hushed and white with snow tis I'll, be here in sunshine or in shadow, Any boy, oh Danny Boy, I love you so the first at all, Time, I ever saw my father crime
and then thirty odd years later, you're sending your son into the marine corps. Iraq. War is escalating, because this is what two thousand three didn't joined in early October. Here. There is full escalation vote at this point and. You're going through the same thing tartar going through it. I they gum its harder having a loved one gone, then it is being gone emotionally. I think. My dad was gone lot. I never expected that he would react that way and when when General gone. You know that was
It was hard for a lot of reasons, partly because I was There are campaigning part of the time in this was a very poor. Me, I'm a father. I refuse to talk about it other than in general terms, but done. When is able to call every now and then and send said Nuts are reflecting actual it made it a little harder You know that you get a peace here we, This is As an anecdote, I've got to make like, I think three phone calls from from Vietnam we'll get back in and war. Oh you know what island is Mars radio station for you at three minutes and only got three minutes, and then you got it. You say something you go over and then they talk on the other hand, so I got
My mom, I'm here in Vietnam over where well I gotta go now getting some of the bits and pieces at what's Goin on Jim was very, very well read and smart about that region. So you ve seen things even as alleged corporal did a lot of people work. That was tough and, as you know, truly waken up every morning, not nor if you kids, alive, you're nuts, the unknowns Do you an unknown in a partial, knowns body, you more than actually being there. I think but yeah it's very hard, but it also our family way, and so, when it came back, was out to die of
story, they got extended on the search. One six got extended to insert your job stable, and I think there was there was a lot of this. By going on that, there were the had a hidden gems, their back down from one by one so I thought he said to him. When you get back anything, you want Yankees in Red Sox, Fenway, part, may Nineteenth oh great, my friend and I got a great friends and from South Boston. Big worry Gore community up there I lions to render them programmes up there. He got tickets and not only that, but german one of his company who is from Boston, they got off the play Logan, and there was a state highway patrol waiting for him at like a squad car whatever. I don't know what it was, but they had. The sirens go on coming to
come into Fenway. Couldn't I couldn't have been any better Jim. So how old were you when you were like said yourself far? I am fond of my dad's footsteps. Earliest, I could think there is Two things are going to be rational baseball player and marine. Both in time and when I was thirteen a good friend of mine, our warm up for a baseball game told me that could not have it, and so I became part of a binary choice in but recourse always at the front. My dad had a rope paying into the back yard. The entire time are grown up, but there was one day he came home or know how old I was, but I climbed it got back down ass, like a marine, and His reaction was, I need the support of organised athletics immediately leader at ten years and when you were
newborn remedies for you. You had paid attention what was going on in remedy and you guys knew your deployed there. I'm three eight we're done an an awesome job and they take mean they. They obviously taken a tonic casualties as the whole one, one hundred and in the two to eight before them and and The three eight actually overlap between the you know they were. There looks just like the first of five or six. They were there between when the two two eight left, the three eight stayed the first five or six states and some of the other between state. I think, but Sir, you guys both knew how bad remedy was when you were headed their right and it's that was.
They go back to when we were announced that we are going there on they mentioned last night. There is a murmur that we are voting on. A boost. Crews are gonna, be a word for our battalion. Haven't done some seriously good work in Malaysia and in Afghanistan and the receipt of a fairly I dont want to say it was dejection, because that would sound wrong, but it was kind of old woe moment because we had heard what was happening. Three, eight nearer serious fight and all the issues that have been there before there have been serious fight, and I tried to get as much information as I could about the place that I was going to be going and there wasn't much written quite yet. There is a little bit about two fourth or the first units reigns in there. That was in in print but terms of press reports. They were, they were an eye opener all believers in bed with three eight, where there were detailing an average. They patrolling these guys, hoppin walls in talking about the the average time to contact
from leaving wherever you were, was about five minutes, and it was. It was an eye. Opener n- and I was a boot at a time and more than one of the things that I would do would be were begun, o grayish or live league, and I want to find some way to rationalize no, the teepees at the enemy. Could I slight? Could I see what they were setting up winner? Videotaping is complex attacks, the Idee strikes, and there is really no way to do it. You get a thirty second clip all the gunshot getting head are complex, ambush and eventually one of my friends at the time I could cause worth armies past it up. Plead into me, one night about doing that: site: you're, not gonna, learn a damn thing: you're, just gonna get wrapped up in a ball, knock it off and took his advice and display. Your games for it was. It was it was,
energy and try to get merely prepared for it in Amerika, for deployed in a hotel room with him one of the things it stood out as you ve. All these things going on, as you know, were up. Turkey was your first appointment of a family is
trying to be, therefore use a lot of emotions foreign around, and he said you know if you survive, and that woke me up in a big way. I'd never thought that was going to be even a question and it was something that was relayed to me by not only my own father but by someone who had been through his own, very serious, combat experience and, as I tried, I cannot rehash all this in my head, I was, I was brought back to a book the reviewed on Vietnam, a couple pike ass ago, where the sun New lieutenant was talking about getting ready to leave and in a how he was eating his meal the night before, and there was absolutely no desire to be to have the meal to be involved with it is mine was somewhere else.
And the night before I deployed my cousins lived in Jacksonville. My dad took us out to Bluetooth, sharpshooters and burger joint favorite thing in the world cheeseburger every year on my birthday, my mom would make special meal and I always ask for a cheeseburger and I got a bacon double cheeseburger and basically just stared at it, and think about was where I was gonna, be in forty eight hours in how the world around me there, which is keep going on, and it was a very interesting period, although he It made me famous Cobham Heisel hate, her keys the next morning we get
what's the deal Wilson. Was there a beauty? He actually walked up to our barracks room that for you to play in a walk up the second or third deck. Nobody could tell you what you're playing few teeth hung out in the barracks, with my dad and us for a bit and then in the next the next morning get ready to go on the bus and somebody I guess it was whisky or moonshine, you're and you're on your own. The Rudy whisky, Ed go away shots in the parking lot and there is nice picture of it months later interact. My company first articles massage, is in New York Times article barely about it really yeah. Others research better. We can read that it was a mention was made in crazy, like our really web dragon on job. Do you want re area retired moments when talking about being able to communicate when I was
and pay for the Senate? Illness was like couple weeks for the election Jim called me, and he said three. As you know, were killed in so. I'm in his car, get ready to go to ball game, a big football game down in the Norfolk area, and I get that information. You know and I'm like what are you do put it in a box. You bury the box, you go you're, your thing and then you can come back and pull the box out, but you know getting that. And that's it. You know like twitter, medicine and walk in not having to do like two or three hours, sane, a load of people and not mentioning anything and whatever that That was really hard when, when he was gone and when I was going through that ask you this kind of occur question as a day I want to combat you right now so
My son was get ready to go and appointment low. If I'd say, if you survive much or as is that something I mean, I can see why you say it to you know I'm signature and think about why, when I tell my son that the reason I would if I was still my son, that it be because I wouldn't want him to stay sharp and on point the entire time and I take it for granted and realize what is at stake, so that might be no I dont really remember the contact. And what I would have said that I mean that that's exactly how I took a reality. It stripped away the route like all aspects of the relationship, accept marine Rain and I've always been very cognizant of my dad's experience, reputation the rancour and it was a very clear message. Did you know this is going to be different, you're, not special, and
better pay attention, so you might not remember saying, but it sounds like some good advice, I'll keep that one in my back, I went. There are a lot of words goin back and forth. When you get redder shipper, and then from from your perspective, haven't grown up like with such a with such a focus on leadership in your family and the tradition in your family and shown up as a lance corporal inside of a protein having. More awareness, then the normal lance corporal would have caused de I mean if I dream picture myself when I'm nineteen years old, if thousand Lance Corporal, I would have been a normal lance corporal. How would have been you'd? I wouldn't have had this sort of elevated. Look at things mean even having read your dad's book over and over again and- and it's just that level of understanding well. How did that? How would that have that that in your platoon. How did that set with you were? You ever
were you ever looking at your boss? Think it'll look at your platoon commander thinking. Did he listen to you talk to you? Do you know who you were? Did he? What was there anything like that? They all do. I think the best are the most of my time I kept at off. The skyline was three days, no matter which unit I was I I blew camp, I got pulled out imprinted around and it wasn't till I start asking questions, as was before they actually ticked off the training like hey. This is this is what could, but I think it is put an extra like extra demand, particularly once I hit the fleet reinforced ah for humility, because I could have all the informal training if you like in the world, and it was world class but at the same time I'm walking into an environment where I have not been there and done with these guys have done, and I need to listen and when the opportunity presents itself. No, then the f, the price
application of what I had learned grown up would be there, but until you are in your striped you're, nothing and I think I put an extra layer on no question about a on the answers They'll, Germans, really. Really been smart and thoughtful about that part of the world. So he added You know he had a lands on on what was going on it. A lot of people in his level didn't have you, okay, here's, a here's, a here's, another question that I'll throw at you when we were talking about it a little bit yesterday, but you know- and I covered polar and loopholes or on this podcast number one. Twenty one, a number torrent wanting do. If you haven't listen to him, go, listen to me, you don't know that story should know what everyone should know it, but you loophole, got severely wounded as yet he polar son. You know that that's another thing that would just I can't imagine
cause you were friends with loophole. Nelson was, and You know you told me of a story yesterday about you and him arguing about the draft and. His his thoughts about that I can imagine that at some level. You're thinking yourself. Well, I know how I feel I know unpatriotic. I believe in service. But this is my boy That's a hard choice, everyone! To make look no poor by the way, I don't think we have a lot of debate, but I never really got an argument with my eye. I want to say that clearly gaseous such a decent sickly, gentle guy but We certainly certainly had Arden our disagreements about policy and services, wars and general. I think, by by the time he and I were hanging up.
He was a really really finding my it for me. Jim going into the military support what family tradition? You accept the risk, article. I route for prayed magazine years ago about my father. Still tending the grave of his son and opportunities to what by it all the time. It is one of the most beautiful stories about, the sun and duty, and whatever the father with modern World war, two his son- was one two three, and killed in Vietnam, went back from Okinawa and was killed him. The price of duty and actually mentioned and was really young when I was at peace, but I meant He. Had already said he want to be a so you don't want to take away From someone what they believe that they they should do personally for the country, so I totally respect it and then you just got to
which your hands are tied to and you also know where were we not for a while, but no the one thing. I want to ask you about, as I talk about worth a lot and you, u interviewed him and spent he's not like a week with him, Australia, no actually or Hawaii yeah I was thinking I would get the gig to go to Australia, but we met in Hawaii, which is not a bad not arising in the second place. Expendable with him when he was young people who listen to you know know no his backstory, but when he was decided to come home from Australia, after his exile a number of reasons in his book had yet come out in prayed magazine, could not review books, but I wouldn't it feature along feature on their lorries pieces they done on on human and
You read about him be beforehand, talk to people knew women and I got to know him we want kept up with him for years actually, and he was he was the kind of soldier that if you are going into a bad place, you want to be with was the real was the real deal and any had a hard time at the end. For reasons reason, so I pointed out in an end the article I raised it in a certain way and my article, you know it was a quote from one of the people had served with him that you know. The army disappointed her money just decided to declare war on, but he was a soldier. I thought a lot of him that part of his life. Well,
September stuff. You told me that, and I read that article Jim thanks before that they died, actually read it before, but I hadn't made the connection. You know what I didn't look at the author's name. I apologize. I just folded up, read the article I didn't make that connection, but I should have obviously, thanks to both you for common on and and and thanks for your service and will put the links to buy his books and there's a new version coming out of feel too fire there's an anniversary of fortieth anniversary addition that they put out already in the Kindle form and it will be out by buys a December enough in the paper It's no differ another, the nerves of George Essay, an affront that I wrote danced, cover up a little bit glad to know it stolen practice. She went along the an it's it's it's imprint in theirs, there's lots of? lots of books in movies and series and tv shows that
I know how to say this, but they could think they reflect certainly reflect some characters. Some of the goings on inside the book, so look look to see, fields become mom, probably tv series, I wrote a proposal a year ago on it. We know it's Hollywood's funny and all its a when I was workin out there a lot. I think they were registering forty coast of forty thousand. Screenplays a year, the writers building were making two hundred sixty movies. So you get to that final cut off it's a pretty competitive, but that would like to see that but it's been a pleasure being with you. The conversation, the affair, things going on, and I would maybe suppose this, and I know it's a long trip so maybe next time I'll do the trip, but we've done this once before we did it with an album. We saw she which is told people we are going to do it and then once everyone had the chance to read it. We came back so I came back on and I had a reference point and virtue was agent.
Studies major at Princeton and had lived in Japan and Study Judo and we went through the balkan kind of apart it apart, but if you do like to do that. Let me know when and where did you come back on and dumb will go through it and and pull you know I didn't you know I like talk about leadership. The leadership lessons inside fields, a fire or phenomenal just the path, recognition of knowing what kind of people you're dealing with, and you can learn a lot of that just from the book, but love to hear about. You know how you got to some of those characters: one wife, what one real lobbies characters Austin Sergeant Austin, whose like the by the book Marine, that's AIDS, my where the highway in India the way is the way that hard just kind of handles, em and and and there's a certain there's, a conversation that there have been, and you can see
Oh Jesus push not pushing back up against a little bit and then he decides how you know: Knocker PET pushed back any further cause. I'm gonna create relationship with this guy and we'll get him along the way. But those little subtleties that you put in this book are: are phenomena leadership, lessons one or one wants point on. Cuz approach probably have mentioned earlier in terms of one, the motivations and writing it. Is there there was so much out dear demeaning things that happened in Vietnam. Without a cow, Bree hints of under standing not only of Vietnam but of warfare in general that I felt It was important to do create characters that could give cod extra. How some of these things happen? You know that's what with sergeant us and how to further develop the numbers. You know when I was in an austrian writing us about
everybody was getting fragment. Remember had a really good friend who was a world war, two veteran who kneeling me one day said tell me: Frank. I should screw you. I was raised on stories of a bad lieutenant in world war. Two having ten seconds once the ramp dropped on the landing rap were somebody was gonna, get him out of the way he said. Well, I shouted lieutenant overuse not about their. There are leadership lessons in in it the book and are also often one of them. I mean how do you are you pause environment. If you look at where these people had been at the time that he was coming to do under the pre, Vietnam junk on the bank, which was probably essential to developing an attitude of discipline, we didn't have the stuff but you know somebody. You got one point three
point, seven million people over the five thousand people in Vietnam at the time allowed him from pretty rough backgrounds in Euro. Third, there are ways to motivate I'm nervous things go the other way. There's ways to get yourself read. Well, I don't have an often, but it was not. It did happen at times, probably always happened at has in some form or another yeah. That's why it's important to be a good leadership made to be deported by a good leader, especially when the people that you leading have weapons are not so well again. That's one of the many multitude of of lessons at her in the book and again will put him on the websites. Irreverent can get em and you can educate yourself. Jim, you gonna any final thoughts. Anything else to say now, just nature avenues, incredible, listen to you! Do you talk back and forth meeting. Will have been a real pleasure.
Well, thanks for coming on Obviously it's it's an honor to two to have you on and an agony one. That's gonna, listen, uh this or any one that does listen. Listen. You can hear from a lot of people to do. Listen to this. They keep their demands. Open keep their hearts. Humble as you both have talked about today. Did you guys set setter incredible example for people to follow and for common on it's been a lot of talk to you and we appreciate most of all, your service to the country and your support and your legs and at this time are guests, have the part of the studio to have them on an honour to sit and talk with such men and and it's it's just as we do that well story, incredible books and get them, books will be on the website on jacket. Pocket
dot com under books, books from apple. Books from episodes is what the technical may last year Everyone can learn from those books. If you read them speaking of learning speaking of teaching and what not echo Charles, maybe you could teach us how to get after a little bit harder sure for forgave him shift gears to digital privacy obvious seemed of it here and the figure in the same boat, where you do fault to Jujitsu as like a solution or a way to look at things even earlier today. We're talking about true that is it is. It is a default, my wife target before the fact that it's a threat, the ties a lot of things together. You compare
well to run a things. It's a struggle. Life is a struggle, business is a struggle. Combat is a struggle All these things are a struggle and you have to learn to do with them and they all have threads in them. That are the same Yes, I do referred a judgment on tat. If you don't like that, go start your own podcasting. Don't talk about. Judges grew. Where do you think me shoot? If I don't like that very thing, you're talking to making sure I remember. I can remember it right now that you referred to. Youtube as the solution to something humility, authorities well that if you want to work on humility used you just as the answer that obvious anyway, Will you do that? going to need to get cuz going to do both key and noogie saw when get your gear. No question origin main dot com to get you get the three hundred percent. No doubt
No doubt and you get rascal there for you to train. No, you don't have to use a key in Egypt where you can. I recommend that you do and if you're wondering, if you do you do do you know he'd do both this. This is the way to go there. Both help each other and are both useful. But you can get rash guards if you do too with a rash guard, which is good to do because it doesn't get all caught up in your opponents toes yes, not too many things in life when you're worried about you took opponents toes ingenuity. You are a little bit worried about your opponents toes here in Europe, by the way and you can use a rash cards for other activities such as surfing cycling. Euro cycle but I hear good: ok, yeah. I guess you can wear for cycling as well and in Spain,
still forget about spats spats, which is essentially compression pants by their essentially a rash guard for you, your little your other fifty percent, everybody body has dealt plus They're got teach you think close, and it will make it more close at origin. We are, king mortals urgent, yeah, it's fully on our way. Yes, thereby Denham the up a complete the other day, you can get yours yet not your genes and those really the topic of discussion were right. Critical out why you're so yeah, where we can make our close kid just keep an intention of that and we'll get him out. Supplements got some good supplements things that will help you in all aspects of getting after a year. For instance, help your joints with joint warfare help your joint with krill. How you're, cognitive and physical capacity with
Siplin and there's actually so discipline. We just made a new form of discipline, so there's this point out of drink cool here's the problem with the discipline powder drink, I'm getting ready to go into a meeting, and I'm want to be in there for two hours and I want to get like a little bit of up a cognitive bump. And a little bit of a solution. A little bump is, and I dont maybe want a drink a thousand or drink five hundred ml leaders of water, whatever bottled bottle to drink a bottled water exempt, then biologically what's going to occur in forty five minutes. If I pounded a bunch of water, I'm at the stopping used the head quit the thought for a moment. Can you read which I like so made, want some pills, a capsule actually capsule, so bomb. It's got the it's got a little Kay meaning we get. It's got some new tropics in it. Get you a little bit of a
does get, does have more caffeine in the regular, no beware literally insolent, and yet, despite the girl discipline on the ogre interesting here am I took some. Good. Oh you, gushers oil, China, No, I mean, obviously it I'm gonna see, but I don't go into many little someone if he took so many set like a tax to be impeded, Brian impressive speech ever ok, so that I don't feel fired up what I well. J P fills fired up anyway, raven all just like enhance Yuki Chan GDP going on today, junkies clicking foreign, though he fired a hundred percent, so Lisbon girl, but mark them all train. Yet more change, don't stay on it if they are to get the problem of the multinationals and ends up just sort of its kind of the desert, the at its yeah and it's interesting, because
You know that the idea that protein powder is either it tastes good or its good quality. That's that saudi ass, a dichotomy that loose to existing, like that, did the the gap in that I caught me could not be crossed, cannot be brought together. It has been brought together, been voted out of talk to my friend, Terry Big, sexy last night. Animal trade. Now that's the way I might as well have just made a commercial for cause. You don't you start talking about it than you starting and you you yourself kind of fired up about it. That's anyway, he was. I came in a guy it's good, I'm gonna. The animal train hopefully meant chocolate chip. My purse, favorite, peanut butter, chocolate, Dave, Burke's, personal fame good deal, vanilla, guerrilla technically named now
directly for life ban would certainly associated with life, and he said the other day that he makes it up and he was I go. There is a game of military response, Donovan Noah Guerrilla, amend it and then there's the darkness, which pure chocolate. Yes, Chocolate in my how household the darkness is ascending to oh, really meant chip chocolate levels. Because it handling ignores just download whose whose over her interesting, to add peanut butter and by the way I should mention that I can understand, but also we also just came out with warrior kid mark we got strawberry chocolate right now. They have a little bit