This is Jacko Part gas number three, thirteen with Uncle Charles and me doc. A willing beat me echo get evening. He looks like any other ordinary young afghan, a dusting of dark beard. Son weathered face, child clinging to his side. Only now the fuller, Twenty four is a proud member of Afghans, ISIS affiliate known as ISIS Kay. Informally as Dash He has long been wanted by everyone from you, troops and the now defunct afghan security forces the Taliban, formerly known as the islamic emirate of Afghanistan not fool, said he joined the terrorist group around five years ago. Out of fear, straighten that the Taliban was dishonest about the status of its shadowy leader.

he kept asking the Taliban to show us. Video of Molly Omar, but we couldn't get me. He claims that. why the dash here was created. They seemed truthful, and said they were going to implement Sharia law. So that is why I join them. Tat and founder Omar died in two thousand thirteen. Yet it was kept secret for more than two years most ICES K recruits are believed to have defected from Taliban branches in Afghanistan and neighbour in Pakistan, seeking an even more extreme interpretation of Islam with more international rather than domestic, centred goals of caliphate control. Since then, Terrorist outfit has attracted a wealth of foreign recruits, bent on attacking NATO afghan forces The insurgency turned Taliban government the emirate came to power on August fifteenth ice,

Kay, as waged a deadly spat of suicide attacks and targeted bombings across multiple provinces and claimed dozens of lives. While some assaults, have targeted the Taliban, the vast Majority have been inflicted upon innocent civilians, particularly the minority Shi Ite Population, NASA fuller says he is unclear how many ISIS came. Members are hidden inside Afghanistan. He spent the asked Here- locked away- countries notorious bog prison having been arrested, by the previous afghan government, for him ISIS membership. However, When the Taliban swept to power in august- he says he was released, even though the new regime was aware of his chequered past. not a fuller went straight back to the black clad Terror clan but says he has since broken his leg.

Seemingly from an accident on discharge from his own rifle. yet he remains ready to take up arms again with a very specific goal in mind, first target is to destroy Pakistan, The main reason for everything in Afghanistan is Pakistan. He vows. when the Taliban were here, they were saying that we control eighty percent of the country. But they were not implementing Islam. rulings! That's. Why We stood up in when we started ISIS K over in this area, not ruler. continues then in the park. Under their dominance. The Fit immediately began quote: implementing Islamic rulings like cutting hands and everything.

So that's when the Taliban got funding from Pakistan and started fighting us back. He claims of the big smile and, at that time, bag, Daddy announced the caliphate in our area and we on top. That's why we are against the Taliban Though not a fuller asserts that his outlawed group is quote week now, attempt the downplay, their lethality their hard. Line goals remain firmly in place. We were to implement Sharia law? We want implement the way our profit was living. The way he was clothed the dressing his job was there. Currently we don't have much to fight but You give me anything: I am going to fight Pakistan now, yet can we not a fuller, also me

It is clear that ISIS K has far more global reaching ambitions. ever goes against Islam and against the Koran he adds darkly. We are against them That is an article from Mackay NEWS, dot com, the articles. by Holly, Mackay Holly is a journalist she's an offer she's a war reporter and she is extremely courageous, human being she's been park ass before or to seventy one where She talked about our experiences in the war, or against ISIS in Iraq and Syria, which she chronic, in her in credit. book, which is called only cry for the living and she's back

with us again tonight to share with us her experiences from Afghanistan because He was there, she was there during the Americans. Archer the collapse of the government and they rise to power and control of the Taliban to Holly. Welcome back and I do mean that sincerely I was watching through social media when you were in Afghanistan I was terribly worried about you and will Gus Y know I'm sure we'll get to some about it definitely sketchy to say the least, but for now I am truly glad that you are here and you went therefore reason to learn to capture the what happening, and you ve done that. So, let's talk about livestock, but what you been through. First of all,

I'll come back. Thank you. Thank you for having me strange adjusting says it's been a few days and I M still getting used to know highway without. Bombed and potholes make up. This is a nice red hang on a minute justice at this stage a little bit too, to bring you into Afghanistan when you went back when you went to Afghanistan this time just to get where, what you stepped into July second, Germany and ITALY withdraw from Afghanistan. That is the same time that America, quietly And strangely left Barbara airbases July, eighth Biden announces The words can be overrun. We're gonna be out by August thirty. First job Twelve General Miller, who is commander, o commander of you, ass, a NATO forces in Afghanistan. He steps down.

and by the way this is a right as Taliban is seizing district after district by MID July. They seized one hundred and forty four hundred and fifty districts inside of Afghanistan,. July, twenty first General Milly reports that half the districts Afghanistan are under Taliban control so July. twenty second there. U S house of Representatives, they they pass a bill for visas, for our interpreters and and other allies that were there and then now bring that up, because I turned into a big deal as everything shot down and So that's what we're going into It's very obvious. I forget the quote from General Milly, but it was something along the lines of the. Everyone was superb. eyes that how fast it was collapsing, but it was collapsing quick, so August, seventh,

is when you arrive in Kabul WAR. What was your purpose in going? There did you did you know how fast was falling down? Did you like hey this, isn't going to make it I'm going to go in there anyways? What was that was a far processor, so I made the decision. I think it was around May June that I was going to go back in August. I, with my photography, Jake, whose Australian is also spent a lot of time. He lives in Afghanistan and spend a lot of time and in other places So we thought we would go back and document what I thought was going to be the last month of the Americans being there, and then the afghan government trying to stand on its own two feet So between making that decision and what happened to you couldn't you could I did not realise it was going to happen that quickly And so, when I arrived even that first week I was

two meetings at Andy Ass, which is the afghan intelligence. I was going to meet with all these different people and everybody who, just so convinced that it wasn't going to fall immediately, at least not within, say that month, and it's so did the speed of it on that, and I've had to do so. Much reflection on this and looking back and going. Where did you miscalculate? How did this would have happened so quickly, really just goes to show think nobody really had any idea at the end of the day. I think. and they were, they were set of intelligence, valleys and many different levels from many different from parts of it. I've talked about some of this. If I'm a company commander- and I'm in charge of training afghan forces. I want to do a good job and when report to my battalion commander and I do know the first a more working with these guys for a month, and

you know, he says how are those guys- and I say: well, they got some work to do that. They do not agree their deficient here. They're deficient they're they're, not good at this, the tangled commanders. Has ok, well, you know get him squared away the next month. What do I say you know I'm I'm gonna tend to say we were making some improvements where we're doing little bit better, we ve got them issued better gear. We got the supply issues taken care of that we were worried about. We did a live fire training operation, and and so you end up just paper. you have having a positive attitude which America certainly have we end up. painting a better picture, then what actually happening I saw this. I try to think. If I did this, I If I did, I believe that I did in training iraqi forces. Would some I say what I would put Lipstick, on

on the situation a little bit again. Trying to have a positive attitude, trying to look at the brightest side of what was happening in was times in it. Rack where the Iraqis, would take over a position and the in urgent- would immediately attack it and crush them. We got pudding check a few times. I would almost say luckily, because our What that caused us to do was to be there the honest about the capabilities. The people we are working with so there is act, we'll times where The Iraqis would take over, let's say a check point. We too they're good to go in this way. When I say we, I mean coalition forces in general, you know the man. consider their said. Yes, we ve been working with the Iraqis. They can handle this checkpoint we'd step away from the checkpoint and this happened almost immediately upon my arrival, this checkpoint got take over by the Iraqis and the answer is attacked it a day later, two days later, they killed the

american adviser that was there actually to american devices that, when their overran, it was total disaster, and that happened. I first showed up so it really put us in check in terms of ok. What do we do? to be very cautious about what we report up the chain of command and when they are actually ready, but at the same time. You know, my guess is, and even when we left Iraq, I was very worried. I was very word when America left Iraq would coalition forces left Iraq. I thought to myself that they can they're not ready yet and there's a There is a similar obvious, similar theme here so almost every. I never fawn. I wrap in Afghanistan, but. every one that I know that worked on the ground with the afghan forces were I'll not surprised, hey, they ready. Yet they just want ready yet and it the huge it's it's some it's almost like when you

have these these elements, the U S support is really like the long pull in the tent and all other tent poles the canvas that goes over. The ten is in the stakes on the ground. All those things are really really important, and you, and build those up and you can make them really. good and you could they can provide you shelter from the rain and shelter from the wind. But if you pull that one long pull in the middle. It has a huge negative impact and, and that sort of again in high site. As I look at it that work. That's one of the things I think happened, yeah. I think they will just multiple things. I think even right down to the number of go soldiers, so on paper they might be three hundred thousand afghan soldiers when they are in reality. This by a quarter of that, because people were take Amandas, we're taking money of people, there

never existed or they were dead or there was no accountability. You knock him. I can go into corruption for days and in how that really destroyed Afghan Stand and soda drilling that corruption that you just let me let me see if I got this little piece of it right. I am a commander Emma I'm an afghan commander If I say I have, five soldiers? I get x amount of money so guess how many I have seven hundred men and in two of you guys Diana than are upon that cause. You still want to keep getting their money to the point where they would take the bank cards of the dead soldiers and go to the bank can get them their paychecks every week you're every month. The level and we can get into this, but in my I've never seen a more corrupt place, every possible level, and yet.

But you know we in one s a we as a union, we turned a blind eye to that for four really, twenty is instead of going to the route and fixing it we let it festa and create this entire industry of corruption, which is what the Allah band was not only able to capitalize on, but they came in, saying we're not going to be corrupt and people that don't even like the Talibans will so fed up with that corruption that they were gonna support that even if they didn't support the ideology, so you get there on the seventh, eighth and ninth your meeting with entailed people it's my clear that this thing is: gonna fall apart or you or order strangling there was this idea of what was never going to fall and certain pop, It's like Kabul, Pangaea, you know even Mozilla, which is where I ended up. These were very, very strong resistance places, and there was sort of this idea that how can they possibly fall and

so I buy met with an ad, actually stayed with him in two thousand and eighteen and uncoil was General Dustin General Dust M was the the oh lord, I guess who the? U S? Troops first went in with from the north during after nine eleven, that's where my expand was killed and sort of the first people there. So I at him several years ago in Turkey and ended a profile with him? And so he invited me to go back to Mozilla because he was leading some resistance forces there that will working with the afghan commanders. and tat was just sort of this idea and I guess looking back, it was seen of selling a story that didn't exist, but We decided okay, well, let's go uncover what's happening in Mozilla. Even no? The northern provinces surrounding it world said are falling. There was a cent that means I was going to hold. So we went

you miss. It was very early on a Thursday morning. How'd you get up, but we flew into a coma, and so it's about a fifteen minute flight from Kabul to Mozilla, and so we can vote. Did you say fifty minutes? Laugh fine and was a spook whose whose find the helicopters this discharge. This is at the commercial airlines to come well yeah. I flew commercial airlines weeks ago. They still exist, and I was glad to learn that one because there was no ending lights bet, but those commercial airlines so we flew to Mozilla, because at this point you it Travelin roads anyway, which is in something else, has changed significantly now, but but then you couldn't need the EU could of the Taliban and really cut off every strategic road, and you couldn't go much beyond set of Kabul may be cobbled panacea, but that was a sort of the most road travel.

Could do so. We flew to measure that was really alien the Thursday morning and you get. There was just this incredibly vibrant place and I just remember it was the how how is there how. However, all these provinces around this place falling to the Taliban, when the markets would just chuckle block and everybody is just go, about their daily business. I was flabbergasted- and I thought isn't like what is happening and you go and sort of talk to people and they beyond the little bit worried. But it's ok, I think it'll be ok, we'll just flee to cobble, so that was the Thursday and everything and very normal nursery you're feeling was. Okay. Well, obviously has to be ok, yeah an end now you know had a couple of France who are very worried about me being in Mozilla, and I was sort of like a seems fine to me, but but what did really struck me as as we it was that there was no

Yes, there was no military presence on the street at all. I didn't he s single, like afghan forces can Tirana I thought that was strange. I thought. Where is where is like this city. This is in the middle of a fire here and there is zero security forces right now. So that struck me a strange, everybody was going about life and then the next day Friday.

She's the weekend day in Afghanistan, but still things were out and I was going out interviewing people. It is asking them how they felt people in the markets and people starting to feel really worried. They said. Would you know we think it's gonna fall, but we just are no one's going to happen and, as the day progressed, you felt it get a little bit. People are becoming more tents and we go to. This bears a beautiful, big, blue Moscow, Big Schriner, that's that's quite famous, and there were just a lot of people that had fled from other villages and other provinces, and they were also of hanging out outside this mosque in and by the evening things was. happening but a haze. You know I said to check my photography: hey. We need a book, this return flight back to cobble, and so I get online and unlike the earliest flight we can get as Monday night and ass. I could, I think it's gain. I called a few people as I guess it gonna hold and they would like

You know you should be fine but but get out in the next fight you can get back to to Kabul inside a book. The so your online booking of light, which major online watching news and setting up the everything yeah yeah, still you got the impression cause, I'm sure I don't remember exactly. I knew that you were in Mazar. through social media here cause you're like posting about this stuff, but I also remember seeing you know, sort of the battle map of what's happening in seeing the various provident provinces color. around and I just remember thinking it: please get out of there, so yeah, and I'm of thinking that too- and I thought of this isn t this doesn't feel right, but that We went out with the commandos the afghan commanders too, and they would making a lot of hits in a lot of in a lot of fighting, but They have such extraordinary and again in this. This perhaps walked my thinking a little bit too. But you have these men who just like we will never give this up. They will never

Amazon? We will you know and and defend it and hold it, and just really great young men and women, it out with them until we about two o clock that morning- and there was a sort of strange sense with with one of them- is nameless Safian and he kept you. how much he missed the west. He wanted to stay and drink beer with him in and listen to music, and he just he didn't want us to leave. He does he wanted. He wanted the sense of this connection too, to the west that I think that you have been trained by the Americans and just have this sort of deep love so took what came. We got the guys take us back to the hotel and was supposed to go out with him again owed around seven or eight that morning. So we wake

Saturday and I'm waiting for a call from him he's not. There he's not answering his phone and I thought you don't go to Herpes okay. This is strange. I don't know what to do, but I will just wait for him to contact me again and then we so let's go out and do some stories and we tried to contact some fixes or interpret is that we had none live everyone is led to cobble. We could not find anybody eventually by midmorning we found somebody. He knew somebody who said that he could take a common, be an interpreter if we did some interviews and so we went on. I was just suddenly this ghost town from this. It had gone from extremely vibrant me in place to this complete ghost town. You just saw people lining up outside banks just trying to get their money out and we're walking and people just fleeing from the outside villages into Mozilla on those little rickshaws in

with all their staff in and we met with this interpreter and we get into a cab and were driving out toward. There was three frontlines and the interpreter. Why didn't really know too well is on the phone as were driving and is bout midday and he suddenly. He looks at me and he turns around he's, got his big smile on his face and he says, although just broke through the first of the three lines and its surrounded, and we looked at each other in and the cat rose. I M really scared because we sort of driving what I said. Ok, that's fine blue ten around go back, it's no big deal. I went back and I went on this detail that you just do as he was smiling yeah. He was, and I still can't figure out why he was smiling if he just didn't care was a Taliban or if he just was true

to appease me. So I was five or hey. I'm gonna get you some stories they just through here we're sitting then. Finally, like turns around in its justice, they just path through the first and then I'm sick of K so I get back to the hotel and I'm trying to make some phone calls cause. There's no business, out that I can get earlier than that Monday and there's no way a communal to ten I'll drive is our way could even attempt to do that. Drive because it till Taliban controlled, and so I making some calls you know again to my Intel contacts in Kabul and even then they sang than annoyed should hold it'll whole. Don't worry man, I was having to get pretty worried, and I was distracting myself in doing some work and things and then then we normally go to this. There was a kebab cafe that we'd always go to each night,

and it was a really lovely place. It was underground. They would play these terrible soap operas. There was always a lot of people, they're playing music and said Jane. I said: ok, let's go to this combat. Cafe me step at issues pitch black and not a single person or out and I'm still figuring out. We walked this kebab cafe and its open. While I go with open and we go downstairs in the tv is off and is just the two guys that what better just sitting there and we ought food and was sitting there and then we just like each other like something is really really wrong. We need to go and so we get up- and we start hurrying back towards tell this was of early evening around seven, and then you just it is motorcycles coming in and that's the Taliban and so we sort of hurry back just in time to get to it. how and go to the roof, and I'm just looking out and the Taliban is just circling there's just

Hundreds of them in their shooting in the air and they're playing than a she'd choose their religious musical and celebrating that they just took a city without firing a shot. Basically. But what also struck me during the and that was the other bizarre thing I thought he There is a city, that's falling and there was no air power. There was not a sound in the air, and I remember that something and I adele- video about us like. Where is the air power? didn't we train, didn't we put just ten. hundreds of millions of dollars into these Afghan air force where the hell is. Because I didn't hear it her powers, a great example of the long in the ten right. The if you have our power when the Talibans coming in on their motorcycles and in their tracks did it. They can't get literally can't do it, that's the long pole in the ten that all when that happens. Yours, as you talk about like that,

now on the afghan soldiers that you knew? how he away we're gonna stay here, we're fight on ever take us, We're all that stuff. That happened up in Portland win the anti for took over the part of a part of it of neighbourhood or whatever they were carnage. I think it was originally called chop and then they changed its chance, but the occupied zone or something like this, but some music, me about it, I kind of said well, there's no one up there in the chop. That's like right He did die for the cause. That's re to say you know what we're gonna stay here, where it does not theirs. But there is no, I mean Amerika and I kind of me the comment that pay even people better and If a member's guess what they have. Cell phones and they have heat or like nice, they have clothing and they have running water and it just not that bad of a thing and you're not that committed to it and it's it's.

Interesting. When you think about what it really takes first want to stand up and be willing to sacrifice themselves for our cause. Whatever that causes and when you the Taliban and you hear this ask in person That's been fighting for power for many years and even frightened for the Americans, even fighting for the afghan government for ten years or seven years, and then you're like well looks like we're completely surrounded, I fight I'm gonna die or I can just kind of put down happen, take off my uniform and carry on with my life. And now, as you know, I anything so. The next day Durban mountain said these- I ran away from their posts in things an end to a degree. I understand that come from, but it actually been. Aid upset me because. They were really sold out by their leadership and Anna give.

examples are Sofie, the guy that admit that Friday, when I was finally able to get back in contact with him after desired fallen, and I asked him you ok, where I you, and he said he's gone out that day in and they just the there was, No outnumbered any three bodyguards had been killed and meanwhile is really the commanders that that trying trying to hold it- and he said by o clock that afternoon somebody came to him and said o Dustin left. And so did the commander left that go. Your command is left and it's up to you if you stay and I or you can leave and he just hate you they were sold out like everybody. I did hear stories, guys that I knew that said that The Taliban would like approach a village and just send a messenger and then be like hey. You know here Since we know you were you know you, we know you're afghan security, you can put down your guns and be cool or we're to kill everyone and Gaza. Like ok were surrounded we're in a died. I guess we'll just yet

go back to the way it used to be by the way that sort of the other thing it was they have sort of. A lot of them had memory. of what we used to be like inside. Ok, I guess back to what used to be, but it's better to you that be alive, then be dead and the amount of sacrifices that a lot of those afghan soldiers made em in there. They whenever release the number of killed. But it's it's well past a hundred thousand year. There is at least fifty thousand killed going into this whole thing taking place here. So it it's not like an end again, there's plenty of a man reckons that fought alongside the Afghans and admit awesome afghan troops just like in Iraq and others, and by the time you were in Iraq and the army. Iraqis were fighting ISIS. They were taking massive casualties, massive casualties, going too Mozilla back that was led by the iraqi forces and they massive Catholics and they kept going compared to

in the battle for body, the iraqi forces were sir, of them were very scared and didn't wanna take lead and definitely do not want to take out these. We had a whole. Battalions abandon and leave. So that idea of this kind. It is kind of clear cut. American version of the way things are is doesn't apply here, there is no clear cut way. Of hay. Oh if you get caught Afeared American Eagle captured, we know it can happen, you can get torture, you killed a year and a half security force and you surrender you're, not sure what could happen, but you know what can happen if you don't surrender. You're gonna die so. and then you see your leadership Already away all rang away all of them and every single one of them ran away, including the pressure, including the president, yet in the president, who here with that guy

is. It is an insane situation. I mean you have that guy Auschwitz Johnny, hoo hoo like a professor at Berkeley, a professor at Johns Hopkins went to some leadership school at Harvard wrote the book fixing failed states which is like an academic exploration of this stuff theoretical. It's an embarrassment yeah any bailed with a bunch of money by the way and an yeah bunch of money, is now under investigation. But what what I remember going back in being Afghanistan and twenty seventeen and sort of hearing when I go to the the NATO compound of? U S embassy in every one would say all these great things about Ghani, and I remember saying to a few people: have you gone out to the street just to talk to the afghan people cause they haven't

for an idea. You know so I think part of that problem was the: U S, because nobody was leaving that base in diplomacy, while they were getting a vacuum of information that was pre approve people to enter. There were all part of the sort of Papa restrain, and they want actually out they talking to the Afghans, who were terribly frustrated with the corruption going on terribly frustrated with the so that I, the the passion, in the sectarianism and and things and adjust the picture that was so walked compared to the reality that I saw even back then, and that was what is so two thousand seventeen year old talking to normal people and their totally frustrated with Johnny, and yet the Americans are getting this whitewashed version now and how he is doing an excellent job when so, it was like August, fourteenth so Mozilla Firefox,

copy falls to so that was lips, so that was the Saturday night, so you know suddenly em like in them. Stream in this hotel in in the the locals that are flat and there were no foreigners in there except. I think it was a guy from Tajikistan who was there for a couple days and someone else, but so we can take another pizza there. We said we. What are we? What are we going to do me we're making some calls and I'm speaking, to symptom deity people in Kabul and they said, Billina gangrenous measurements go and get US coordinates, gone, get us this in that and will see if we can get you out in the morning. The early morning and it was a interesting night, so you had do you the last trying to get this information and then the morning in the Talibans or our having a crazy Taliban potty all night, and so by the morning light I thought: well, they gone to sleep then cause they celebrated all night and they gone asleep, but then in nobody's calling they went to settle

here too, a gun now is kind of the chance to get out in this period, where they are not in the street cause they're gonna, be in the street in a couple of hours, but it became very evident that They wasn't going to happen and then then that Sunday? We seventeen news reports the day that the Talibans were at the gates of Kabul and then the next thing you they taken the palace and we decided I looked and looked to take when that happened, and I said well, you were pretty much gotta figure? This out? Were you feeling will you feeling threatened with when the town and showed up so the images that they, portraying of the Taliban was was like it, a kinder gentler Taliban was coming in right. It was like you said it was. It was like celebratory, yet it didn't like a angry mob. It look like a happy mob that was celebrating in. that was sort of the images that we got initially then it could

We turned into images of people being people being killed people being murdered on, but What's your initial impression my initial impression was. It was Bizarre because they were the two I was like you were these barbarians in the street like how is this like it? then doing inasmuch as the last speaker, and it was so strange because he saw us instant transformation of a city in and they did, they did look a little. You know timid and just so many of them, and that was a thing if awaited these people come from because, Mozilla was a very strong Taliban resistance place and suddenly just this hundreds of and I don't know where you they come from when I sent Jake out to buy me a book or the market and he's just came back is like my God had just their crazy. You know, and so we were, trying to guess figure Army by crazy. He just like they there. There is everywhere, and I just you know that they literally have through the dominance of of every corner possible in this

indian. That was their strategy. I think in the very beginning, when they took places, they just flooded with fight is to make sure that they could hold it now, a normal person would like concentrate on, and get him out of there, but you kind of focused on let's go interview, people, Sir, not not cry. I mean first, I went a little quiet as like I don't know, and I was trying to pretend to me parents. I wasn't in the city concerned away my dad's, like we just heard the news methodical and are you there? I said no outside the city, so I was trying to get to China, appease them a little bit so. I was a little unclear end and what sort of Had concern me at that point was I know that first night that they came in and there was a bank underneath the hotel, so they were told the Talibans of desperately trying to get into. The hotel where we were. We knew that will they only foreign and it's in there at that point in anything

pebble, hotel staff at six stay there for us, and they would terrified because that'll be forming in the asshole previously worked in different capacities with the Afghans, and I knew that they would desperately wanting to to go home to Munich safety of flea or that release, but they really stay there for us, and that was just something that I thought was just extraordinary rain. It goes back to that afghan hospitality in and care So we were there and then sell several days ago going by and the focus to get out but ages it became so and at my fine riches blowing up a seventy four people telling me do this. Do they see this, and I should like you all- need leave, leave me alone at this point, please, because it's not helping and I to you of the. U S, people that I was speaking to rat from the beginning. I think Only way as you go and talk like, I need to go and talk to them to get their permission to leave because they really wasn now the way they wasn't really away that I felt that I could sneak out or going,

the radar and yeah that was that was what I was pushing for from the beginning, say that was sort of my focus in in doing that. So it falls on like the fourteenth fifteenth and you spend the next few days trying to figure out what the best course of action, and so You finally figure out. So May I I talked to semi from people, and I thought you know any sort of rescue any whatever is not gonna happen. So I talk to diplomats and then I talk to so. I guess I'm it'll pass and who was a afghan business guy and very, very quick and then he said a simple outcome to the hotel and mean a beer Eddie at this time and they'd teats and things up with the Uzbek Council, which was closed, but they were tat kind of get it open. So next thing I'm dragging my step down and the tube come to meet me at my driver's at the two Taliban Algiers, you know the cotton cut cousin of the

Gavin Shadow governors, ten new governor, say, city sort of old Taliban eyes, and- and I'm getting into the car with them and they were like welcome. They were so bizarre. Jacko is Irish, like what because at that point we really didn't know won't. I guess you and Jake getting yeah he's taken, I getting to cover the Talibans, and we didn't know that We know how they're going to trade a for another, how they were going to treat a woman, how they going treated journalist and so yeah, They drove us through the city, and I said: do you mind if I have a talk to you and ask you some questions and they said Shaw and and I'm telling you I am asking them about their where how they viewed islamic law, ensuring alarm what they wanted and they just sort of said. Well, you know we want people's hands to be topped off when they steal, and if you matter, then you should be eye for an eye, a kind of thing and

and telling me all about their their rulings in. But at the same time, the like yeah, you you welcome in Afghanistan you're welcome to stay as long as you like, and we hope you enjoy our country and it was very bizarre and then we were dropped off that uzbek bad consul and then suddenly these other Talibans came and they were there's a group of them. really young ones like in their early twenties and they were going to be. Escort me only way. Sort of because we couldn't go back to cobble was to go not north to the uzbek border and so how these bunch of these young Talibans, who were just who wanted to take selfies and means can you to send they continue to send long? After that, my photographer, you know selfies of themselves with: music in the background and love hot emerging waves.

literally beam persons having you could imagine, looking on some articles, Yoda catches of these Taliban guys like with or I phones or whatever out there doing, selfies its freaking and for all they wanted you get and they may harass, and then I know there's a couple of other photographers. I know and they harass poor Jacon any other photographers get arrest for their photos. That meeting a picture of a teller men's. Oh, I need your what's up. I need a what pinker, and they then they just harassing on pictures of themselves like it's just it's so near to them. These people were in hiding the mountains for twenty years and then suddenly, they like out in free and kind of a spectacle, it's very bizarre does selfies in the grand match up with Sharia LAW must serve. I guess it's it's it's two new for Syria. Maybe how does that work haven't bought a ruling on a young man? That's great

so you Were you at any point? I? What Where did you go? I think I'm gonna be ok old Taliban make you feel that way the young Taliban make. You feel that way, I think. Well, I guess I did feel like I was to be a cave, and when I was stuck in the hotel, I think the first night I was a little bit well, you you had a normal sense affair. I guess I certainly didn't panic, but I was a little bit thrown this wasn't in the play. at all and but will actually is this small things that make you feel that I remember this. This young man from the hotel came up to me and he said, and he put the manager of the hotel on the fine to me. The honour and the owner said to me: don't worry. I've already talk to the Talibans and I promise not to enter the hotel, and I thought Christmas. Thank you, and I just even though I didn't know whether that was true, whether they were gonna that which they certainly work as they were trying to get in, but it was like just what I needed to hear that point too.

Me that sense of calm that I needed to to focus on what it is I needed to do, in Mazarin S up, I saw images NEO pretty prominently in the news back here sort of ask but fell like us, Let's say there was like women's clothing, boutique ending so the next day to be gone, a bead now, whatever selling shovels or something like that did Mozilla go through that really rapid transition from like more western influence just a boom overnight. All of a sudden yeah was very Evan. I remind you that was that was self censorship that wasn't the Taliban going around telling when they hear that was made known. Oh you know, I'm not gonna be sown these Athens where bikini anymore, we're gonna dahlia. Yet so The aim is our really was just this drastic, but what I found fascinating was the clothing transformation. So you see people in walking around in western genes or whatever it is, and then suddenly everybody's in afghan dress and very very traditional, and that was

but of the bizarre thing, and it took a couple of days before us, our woman again on the street and when I did, she was always in a book. So that was very evil. If it really felt like you went from one civilization and then you just plunged back a couple hundred years overnight and even just there were these messages coming out of the speakers which had never heard before and bizarre either. So the same speakers that they use for the call to prayer was signed delivering messages in a sort of town hall messages to people in a telling them that in all? If anybody deals from them or anybody does anything in there to call this number or come to this place to report it. so. We have this immediate sense of the Talibans trying to to govern suddenly, but yet it was so drastic that that transformation, so. How do you get up to use back border just driving up there? The Talibans tell took us owner. The Taliban strike us too. That is

border, which is about borders closed by the again that they also a couple of really amazing diplomats in in Tashkent capital of Uzbekistan, had made arrangements with the Uzbek consulate to open the borders. Which actually found I didn't even need, because by this house, trailing passports and we didn't need a visa for his Pakistan. But Americans do so. I could have gone anyway, I guess, but they had to open, especially for us, because it was closed because the night before when the Zard full of than the nights before when desired fallen, did these soldiers flooded that board because they had nowhere else to go, so they really flooded that border, I've along the way- and you just see all the in the american vehicles and the hum these in everything just abandoned, left behind in the way, and still lying on the road, and that you know the fatigues, and these areas afghan soldier, deliberated, Afghans out is that they were gone for whose Pakistan, because that was the closest rather that they could go to get out, and so I think

let us certain amounting in and then they to shut the border. How ward was it if I was a corporal or a private in the afghan army. And the Talibans common. How hard is it for me to be able to like take off my uniform grab some traditional clothing and leave and get away with it? You wouldn't yet again, the country I mean they want taking anyone and how about my identity as far as a hams can go back to my home wherever in this village and just gonna take up If, as a normal yeah farmer, what I mean you could go into that. I think eventually they track down and not- and I think this is also a bit of a misnomer- that happened in the beginning- was people were talking a lot, especially the use of all Talibans got a list that coming two houses that getting you know X Y, see the targeting so and so, and when I looked into they weren't really necessarily and of course, there some PETE there are exceptions, but

the thereof rural goal wasn't necessarily target any these soldiers. Their goal was to take back down that weapons, so any government vehicles, any government issued guns, they It is to take them back, so the process is when somebody surrenders they get there. Over their weapon and they get given a letter from the television set. The Talibans give them a letter that basically says they ve surrounded. This is then number there Frida so we know when Talibandz apart some of these soldiers. You know they had to have to show the letter and if they don't have the letter than the Taliban will want to know where they went Phineas and and and what they doing kind of thing yeah. I was muddying Ok, so you now your news: Pakistan, you get there by August, twenty, if you're in Uzbekistan, yes Saran August twenty or so at this time, it's getting it's getting crazier enough, stand you got bite and Biden is from now on August. Twenty, if makes his promise that all European citizens are gonna, be brought home,

August, twenty third the CIA director, William Burns meets with the leader of the Taliban. More one at one of the leaders of the Taliban CO founder of the Taliban actually to start. Talk about how we are going to withdraw. That starts to happen. The withdrawal Sarge happening August. Twenty six! That's when this Attack happens, kills thirteen U S: military personnel, Levin Marines, one one navy women, one Americans, Roger about seventy odd afghan hundreds and eighty hundred eighty, that one hundred eighty down. that happens on August twenty six. August. Twenty ninth. there's a drone strike. That is,

Allegedly targeting some ISIS K, or some Taliban or the added ends up killing a: U S: aid work, worker, a guy named Murray off Mahdi, kills Two other adults and seven kids. August thirty of theirs rocket attacks but progress. There is when the last? U S: planes with Afghanistan, the Taliban roles into the airport just roles in the airport and declares victory, and so that there is the Taliban control, at which point. This is when you go back in yeah. I was came between his Pakistan in and Tajikistan, and I would have gone back or trying to go back a little earlier, but when I met with these diplomats.

in one of them said has said to mean he had said in because he was sort of involved in the Bingham with putting me in touch with the middle man to leave Afghanistan, and, he said have said I've been doing this for thirty forty years and been in many was a sort of working any said. I've never felt more terrified. When then, I basically can't you, however, to the Taliban to get in the car to leave, and he said I just I was so relieved when you were ok an eye out of respect for him. I didn't want to go back and straight away so, but there was no doubt in my mind that I was gonna go back in. Of course, I didn't tell that here. My parents are due anybody else, but I thought I I plan to come and do a job. I felt confident enough to go back because, despite the high but that we also have seen in the media and everybody trying to get out. I did know other others, british journalist and things that had stayed that was still in

cobble, and I felt confident enough that I could go back in and be ok about it end so a year. We made the decision to go back and I thought your let this airport chaos die down and so will go back on the fast and will drive back from the north back from his back ascend border and will take. That is bad. A twelve hour drive across Afghanistan back to cobble there. I really was in any other way, and now that's that's what we did we we came. We crossed that bridge again and ask you know still and they were honouring the valid visa. So my visa was valid media base. Aaron. So I went back in and we kind of went to this little passport. Hot knows it's the Taliban sitting in there and didn't ask a single question: to set a notebook, write it down stamps with the Taliban staff and we'll get together. So is that easy to go back and Ethel gush

and then you just driving south. Then we just driving sweet, hide a driver for friends of her friends who had come to pick us up, and so there was all of his jammed into this little Toyota Corolla driving. You know from that bridge down just through selling, costs down into it was about twelve hours? Are you in your didn't know? Checkpoints. Yes, it was about sixteen checkpoints and others that way I work in a big way, and still now they barely stop you when they see a woman, they see a woman. Go go, go, go, go. They Benin, basically instructed list definitely that point there instructed don't question a woman. Don't you have is a woman, the car just let them go miser their terrified of women. There, the they, yet they just paid, they think they see it as a sign of respect, don't question a woman or an Oscar who she don't look at her, don't question really only once we got stopped, I think it a check point. They asked a sort of a few question

looked at the passports and one of them pixies head through the window. Them is again the it's like being a clown show and takes had to discuss. How do you get your hair, so shiny could have got this black hair. That's waiting around and the guy looks egos head and shoulders The thing was like, like I don't know what movie I mean right now, but this is crazy. But yes, baby? I barely got stopped at a check point and then suddenly we're back in Kabul and really at that point the only This fighting that was really so happening was in Panama, and that was that of the last hold out that the Talibans hadn't taken yet so and you end up going up there right yes, the reason you go out because, is there was there was die Taliban forces that fled their yes and day

were flying. The flag of the Northern alliance buy up there and it seem like that could be sort of like the yeah, like the Montana Org you heard him say like the Wyoming of hay aid- might have taken the rest of America's like a red dawn scenario. Right the Wolverines up their thinking. I wanna go up there, you don't I'm talkin about. Yes, ok, because I know echo does getting. You know he's very up to speed on on those kind of movies, but that's what it was that's what it seem like up and Tangier was hey. We ve got this. The last hold out we're like the Wolverines up there. We we're flying the old flag of the northern alliance- and we ve got experienced fighters your you're not story. Did you looking at it think they can hold out. So I was hearing a lot information people we do this. This is in this area.

A lot of time in Pangaea previously, and I knew there was a lot of great find his great got. You know people that that fought during the soviet era nation, and that was the only place, the Talibans, never control during their reign in the nineties. They never got Pangaea. That was the one place, so they certainly had this. This mentality to haul, but at the same time, all the young man than I knew that live lived there at all, fled to France, all of them and I'm thinking, why be Fred two? Why have you fled to France, like you should be here fighting for your province like what is going on so the little sceptical. To be honest, because I was hearing especially from contacts- in the: U S: you will like we're: gonna, send them weapons and get this, and I remember just sort of thinking I don't. I don't know from buying this right now, so we decide is yet I was to get in, and there were still this debate going on, has fallen, has not fallen because the Talibans were claiming in that so the first week of September too,

have taken it, but then the inner rough as then earn than national resistance front, saying that no we're still it were still in control, and so nobody figure it out, because nobody could get in the Talibans one, not letting anybody going to the province and there's really terrible cell service there's just it's always been terrible service. They are so especially if you're in the mountains are not going to be able to report back. So there was this really crazy debates going on in and again whether Missis formation was coming out of. Was this idea of than people cells hope that Pakistan is got drains there and there supporting the Talibans and I looked at the video and then, as I put a video game they re using forty like news outlets using footage of a video games. Men also footage of like AL U S military in Arizona and its being. passed off. As the Pakistan in panacea, and I just want everything he. What do. is complete disinformation circle and when I really started to dig into it, I found that

was a lot of that information was coming from India. So basically pander had become this proxy for the conflict between pack stand in India and they were sending different information, a lot of which was completely inaccurate. So I said to my fixer, and we need to do it for it takes to get into Pangaea cause, I need to know, has fallen, hasn't it full and what is going on there, and so he was able to make that arrangement and we were sort of the first journalists that were able to get in and go through all eight districts, and that was about That wasn't so, I want to say it was about September nine. I think I did and we went to Pangaea, and did you drive? yeah, we drive so it's not far from Kabul in about an hour and a half, and then we will get there and it was very heavily fortified by the Taliban in and we get in and immediately was very clear to me. The Taliban had complete control of it

even even there was so much miss misinformation. Did you ve talked any and all fighters yeah I did and I was watching them surrender from the mountains in and they will come down in handing their guns over to the Talibans and the Talibans or giving them the ladder and off they were going and they were leaving in honestly and- and I got so much heat for this, but we can only report what you see here. They really wasn't. If I M and a big find a lot of that was exaggerated. There was not a single amount of damage that I saw anywhere in that main street up, not to say that wasn't fighting in the mountains, but I bet, I had one rocket launch that entire day that I was there. The leadership had fled they'd already left and I just That was just sort of an eye so here and now about people going around trying to get weapons trying to innocent, but it's not there. It doesn't exist the way it existed. Thirty years ago

and again goes back to so many of them that I knew there not in the country any more bite. And it was crazy. I got so much heat for simply reporting. They really wasn't right here and deed. They Burgess came off to me in people. You know just I'd, never experience that kind of backlash just reporting a story so there. I was kind of relieved when you know some friends of mine from Wall Street Journal in New York Times and things they went in a couple weeks later and reported the same thing cells. I call ok K. I'm not crazy. yeah. That's the day when you talk about that, the folks that you knew that went too far I will give us a little bit of background on that. While I was just in that initial evacuation period is the love of the young fighters that I knew that they, France was Francis. close with with the panacea he's an end.

Ciao Masood. His wife lives there and he spent a lot of time their during his time in so they have a very close relationship in the French is every aligned with the Pangaea said they were mostly able lot of the men were able to get. I guess as IVF to gush of France in that evaluation period in a lot of them, took it enough Hunton. So yeah I don't doubt there was certainly a fight there, but I just think it was really blown out of proportion in terms of any ability to take it and was very clear. The Taliban had full control of every single of those strict three spend what how long would it there for a day get ready they spend a day up. There now point now. The Taliban is form their government and the late they now run the country they formed a government September eleventh that kind of formally announced that there in control- and this is the new- is the new regime. Yet

he opened. They, the ministry for their prevention of vice and propagation avert too, which is something that listed and then their first rain, where they would go around with these morality, policing and school people and people get flogged if you'll be it wasn't long. An offer for women's wasn't wearing the correct burka. So they were very, very strange but that they haven't restarted the morality police, but at the beginning it was the little bit terrifying and I went to the opening of the ministry in and we should have just very bizarre that very first month you could just woke up and knock on the door anywhere in getting they tightened down since then, but it was suddenly just huddling access to things and because the Talibans were not used to this meteor and people, and it was very bizarre for them. So they would just

I shall come in which what your opening line and you want to go into the ministry prevention of Vice and propagation of virtue. What do you say when you log on their door? We just come back her with my fix her my photography and, of course I don't look at me. They That was the other bizarre thing to the psychological effect of being ignored end Invisible for, amongst straight, is actually to sack eight made me a little bit crazy, so but I would make a deliberate at first for the first few weeks I was being trying to be polite. I would stand back and just let them go up and you know handle it and do they impassioned greetings with the Talibans and make us the way. And then I would just be in the background they would interview with me. They didn't like it, they would complain. So why did you bring a woman? You know what should I should be interviewing with him and that they would usually am. I fix it with sable shield, she'll go and write about it sooner right about the fact that you are gonna interviewed. So then they were very worried about perception at that point by.

we will go up and they were doing this big opening for there The guy's went in and I couldn't go in so my photographer and fix away- and I was allowed to go into the compound and am summit hell events bought me a chair and am sitting under the tree and there'll be no doing there were the hut. Conny is in everybody's in the building x to me doing their their summons and then and then finally, they said we need to put her in a room. She cuts it. So I get moved to a room and then bringing me tea and fruit, and it was all just very busy and then finally, when the celebrations, it's finished and they're all doing, picnics outside the directive came to to interview me in the in the little room and he would just go sit there and very softly spoken and would answer my questions, but looking at the ground, so I was yeah. I was very invisible which at first I took, I said you know, be you know I. I went with the approach that they're not used. They ve never seen a woman before, especially now

woman working with men they if lucky, they have seen their mothers daughters, have one in their sister. They really have not seen a woman before so I tried to be like well this is very neat and I'm gonna burn up. No, no, I refuse, I ward everything that I normally war in Afghanistan previously just a job. And sometimes I wore a mosque depending, but I refuse to wear a book. I refused to earn a quiver refused to wear anything other than a job, because that's all it says in Islam is cover the head and that's it. So that's why I went with so I thought you know. This is a very big learning experience for them too. Enable when I go to villages it was so busy here the villages in the back radish manner I wanted they just never seen, it was a sign, use them and so at the beginning of his respectful and then I snapped, I

I just when you are ignored completely for that long. I just thought I am not a k with this anymore, and so I made a very big point of any time we went to meet with the Talibans that was with my photography fix. I would walk up and I would just stare at them. I'd say high and I would stare at them and they look the other way and even interview and they would speak and they would just look at my fix her. Not to me. I would continue to stir them and ninety five percent of the time they Burke ninety five percent of the time Eventually they started to look at me and the rapid horse of my month there. I found that by the end, the most of them were actually looking at me and I thought. I don't want to go and perpetuate this idea of it's ok just to ignore a woman, even though to a lot of them. That is respect. They think it's respectful to not look at me or ignore me, and I thought, if you are going to run this country. You need to learn what that going to entail, and that is good

to be that women working in the street- that's how it is foreign women will come in and work so interesting social experiment, but staring at him. He was like a line because earlier early, you said you know that when the Taliban, what they would look at, you know you were like all when the cars they were waivers to check point because it's a sign of respect, but then, when you're, actually to communicate with them in their does not even looking at you were there were they afraid yeah just they taught they taught to never look at a woman that did it sits, indoctrination that its disrespectful to to look at it. The a woman. That's not your your own wife or your mother. That's the way that their their talk, so I understand them they are also going to have to learn and does not always gonna be the way there, and you said the heads not coming

The way it's gonna have to be in the future, but do you think it'll be that way? Breathing out does not allow. I I I I saw a big shift. Even after months of again, I tried to take the approach of as much as his new. For me, this is new for them too. They ve never been in a media spotlight the way they are now. They ve never had all this social media attention and and and never getting something you as well, and so I think that I think that I hope that they ve learned, I did see a change in in it over that period. Distant in there direction. I know you actually, I talked about that drum drones. earlier yet, and I know that a one point you actually twice, I went and met with the family at the house where it was head Talk is the area that was devastating, so yeah and the educational, very small in answer to impoverish area. We went.

See that family on that first day that it basically that the Pentagon had acknowledged that a k was a mistake and it was heartbreaking. It was absolutely hop. Breaking and one of them did Vinos three brothers that rural sort of living there with all their family in waiting to get that call to go to the airport, to evacuate and but one of them the men had lost all his kids. All history, kids were killed and another one, two of them It was the heartbreaking. The car was all still there and I just I can imagine that the guy had gone to work that day he was working for an NGO and they should have had a ritual where the little kids would run up to the car when it came in.

And he would arena then they jump in the car and they drive into the into the house, and so he came back in five o clock this afternoon and that's when the turn hit and the kids at all. So I ran out to get the car and jumped in an that's when they were hit with the drawing and wish to stay with devastating. You know, though, the mothers you just who could not speak and I went back to follow up with them a couple of I guess it would have been in November so late November, so recently and I know I said has as anybody, because our reports that you ve been compensated, that the U S was gonna, give them compensation and also speed up their visas to come, because some of them did qualify for aside these and had applied for them before the evacuation said before any of this had happened, and they said

we haven't had a thing we have nobody's. Apologized nobody's contacted us and in in the U S kind of saying: are we going to give these people come pump compensation, it endangered them further because then people around that will these pillar money now and you knowing and crime in Afghanistan is terrible's. It isn't so suddenly. People were under an extra layer of threat on top of it. So I dont know what would have happened if anything's transpired of the last couple of weeks, I tried to put them touch with a rescue organization that was going to help them get out and speed up, and they said. Oh, you know well, we supposedly in contact with some lies in DC, but I do know that anything ever came out of that either or you know if they were able to get out, but it was really just heartbreaking and in many levels and Anne was fascinating. Is they weren't bitter people? They were not? There were not gray at the U Ass, they were not near, they would didn't want to try to get up and they want to come to

the west sooner. They still wanted to come and live here in and get out of Afghanistan but the eyes. I just hope that that back cases lost. Is there any news or information about the sort of Intel thread that led to that drawn strike? I mean only from I ran out of reports which does it seem like it. I guess a perfect storm of fire really does seem that and again I'm still trying to understand it. You were targeting a Toyota Corolla. Will seventy percent of the causing cobble a toy ETA corollas? So I just think it seemed like a perfect on from many different levels- and I think the U S was in panic mode at that point, having had the airport attack a couple of days earlier was so terrified that this I who was pulling water out of his car was pulling explosives out of the car ends. I wrote a sitting to come together without, I guess the correct due diligence.

of dawn. Targets before hit targets that were there what's wrong. and I was a huge lesson learned from me- I had a target one time at first appointed to Iraq, and and Pulled the thread on because I got back thinking that was not right like war, that the person with the guy that we got is not a bad guy. Clearly not a bad guy and a king I can started upon the Fred Pay, who Did this who gave us this information eventually pulled the thread, and it was is like he, His wife had fired the maid, or something like that, it was something like that the maid was pissed. and so she went and started Tellin Americans that oh yeah, this guy he's about guy he's financing. You know that kind of thing that was a huge lesson for me because from then on MIKE Mike what

It would be, who put this acts on this building cassettes we would literally get would be up to map and there be an x on the building array. ex, just like a movie around on a building, and I say, who'd put that radical there I want to know who put their radically now, pull the thread and find out exactly haven is the information that we got, the sorts corroborated. It's really really hard, and if you're, not in that mode and there's pressure, that These people make these on quick calls to to I do something and again. I know all I want to pull the threat on that more and hope we can train as it becomes deal us, like some sure, some of its cross border, whether get information from all that stuff can be classified, but will be interesting to pull the fragile Matt and see why they pulled the trigger

on that mission, and the report came back saying nobody was responsible, nobody was held a cannibal. It was just a mistake that that they couldn't get a pin to one person was the Pentagon report on it. I thought: how is that, how is that possible? Now is nobody held accountable to this you at all? Well you know even for me when we that target and kept caught this guy? Thank God we didn't shoot him think he didn't resistant resist this isn't about guy. So we went. We grab this guy, but The reason I wanted was so engage without was cause I knew me on the one that's kicking in the door and where in open I team is doing that so I need to take ownership of what we're doing and make sure that this is the right thing to do in the right situation, because yeah I mean so, If they're, if you're allowed to sort of push,

instability onto fourteen different people that all had a hand in the entire gathering which your bunch people do gather that inter but whose pulling the trigger Hussein yes go, and you need to own that you make that mistake explain why and then you can put some procedures in place that won't happen again, and also you have to question a little bit the inspector general of the air force investigating the air force, like you put it, better to have an independent person. Looking at this is opposed to having somebody better get themselves. I dunno, I didn't its system of a question that I've asked myself there is another thing that can happen as well, and this is a term that first heard when I was in Iraq. My second appointment good, shot bad result, meaning when you lay out what happened, what a in visual saw like the Percinet pulled the trigger. Why He saw what he understood what he,

thinking, you may all those things out. and you say you know what you that a good shot. I understand why you took that shot. I am sorry that this what happened, but we at least we at least thus and say: ok, how did this happen? How did this occur and How do we make sure that first of all, the person wasn't being negligent persons not trying to hide anything because look when you in war, you can shoot people an occasional you're, gonna shoot someone that didn't deserve, get shot that happens and when that happens, you have to actually look at it and say: ok, how did it happen? How did you make that decision? Why did you make that decision? What did you see you Paul that's of apart, and what, with my guys, the couple is that something like this happened. It was hey. I understand why you, took that shot, an end it was actually the right call and I'm it

a that has a bad result, but I understand why you did it and it made sense Nero. That's a lot front. Then oh, wait a second. You didn't see anything that look suspicious or you will you. Why did you see this? Why do not know never got any answer and never was in those situations so forth, your point, four pull the threat on the whole thing. If someone said hey, this is what we saw. This is the vehicle that we were targeting. This is the Intel hit that we got. This is what our inform and said this is what our electors, extra valence. They could actually pay a picture. You say you know. that pressure situation. I understand what you did. I stand, why you took that shot and you took the risk at taking that shot, so you can save Americans and save on attack. I understand that ok. Now we we at least learn something, but did you say nothing? It doesn't make sense

it's not it's not the right move freely. Horrible. you also I mean you were like on the freakin Taliban tourist trip you You went to visit Ma Mars black remove ask there those all happening, so we took this again. And taking advantage of the fact. Suddenly we went on. I went to almost all the provinces, because this was something that I couldn't have ado before. By urging suddenly we could we could travel This was fascinating to me. So we took this epoch kind of journey from Kabul to Kandahar. And you're through logo and then war, Jack and then through got me in She was very bizarre and doesn't have to sign the filthy, total. I think I've ever data to my life. There was the sheets link like it,

it- was great and mighty this was still at timber is very hot. Recent review version is, it was had slackened and mislead, the toilet, didn't what like? There was just one shared squat toilet that didn't work in the shower, didn't work. It was over flooding. The Niger sites cannot wait to leave

faith, but anyhow was so besides. I like the fact that you're jumping into random curve Taliban elders headway here who get my god of rigid up shower your service, also was sitting there. May these little like place. Having dinner downstairs and again the very unusual for a woman to be out at night ass, I go effort, I'm going out, so I'm having dinner with yours, my driver, my fixer and my photography and then a bunch of Kandahar Talibans come into the restaurant and sort of sitting there in and staring in doing there in asking a few questions and went about business. Banning I found out the next day, which has very strange, the hotel the end, because I have to stay separately to the man to the guys or shared one room and then, as a woman, I have to have my own room, so I was on the other side and then these can

retail Taliban so bizarre? They stayed they were travelling through, but they stayed that night. I heard they were foreign. Is there and literally like stayed outside my room that night to make sure nobody came in which was disposition? anyway, it was kind of goes back to their pasture and Wally hospitality. Wanting to make sure nothing happened to the forerunners which, where we can, we can talk about cassettes that leads to something different. but that set of shows you this very bizarre dakota of what what is happening in this country goes on one hand you sort of seeing acts like that, and then, on the other hand, you see brutality and you see this insurgency- that's trying to be a government so very bizarre, but Anyway, we continue to go through to Kandahar, which is the birthplace of the Talibans on all the roads, bombed up in I'd- ask them who bought this right. We did all now you gotta fix it cry like now. It's time kiss you the words a terrible,

so we eventually got there and then two hours from candy city to go to little tiny, it's in and sang is out, which is where I must added the Taliban and ninety. Ninety four we drive there in and get to the sea extremely primitive place. It just mud huts, its dirt road, sits in somewhere? I really think that the? U s just never was because I was just it was Taliban territory forever, so we get there and just this one tiny square room in the middle of the middle of nowhere and go in India, mom and these village elders wet welcome a sin and strained again, because that was the first time That and it wasn't Mullah Omar Mosque that D, the mullahs were actually looking at me and talking to me I thought this is strange because I come from all these other places and he should be the most

conservative of All- and yet you actually engaging in asking He knew about my personal life size but this is bizarre, butts There, there sort of philosophy on it was that that Mullah Omar gained traction and gain support is because these came after the that were, there was of a war going on so after the Russians were kicked out of Afghanistan here quickly, things became another war again, which was the civil war, in Afghanistan and Mullah Omar presented. This idea of there was gonna, be no corruption and they crime was going to stop and he would give.

food and money in things to the poor and and people gravitated that you could see just from sort of the simplicity of this tiny little mosque that you look like the carpets were replaced in thirty forty years that that was really something I think that he did live by. Was this sort of sense of humility and I think, a lot of Afghans at that point when they were starting to see corruption among all these warlords. They gravitated to that that's how he was able to to build a very strong following very quickly you mentioned to me about. in people addicted to drugs there. What what's that culture because that's the MECCA for opium yeah yeah. Absolutely. I think it having more than ninety percent of the world's heroin in opium, come from Afghanistan, so and the Talibans really brought that that has been one of the number one ways they were able to make money through. The insurgency was through the selling of of those drugs and they

a lot in hell. Maybe we went up to him and his sang in and in places like that when they grow the poppies, and it's funny because I went the Taliban and putting on this big despite where getting rid of the drugs it's wrong. We're gonna, kill the the crops and Barbara BAR and am- and I was at the counter, narcotics and and and the guys you know they re putting on the display but then it became very evident to me, especially when I went there in the Taliban themselves, a harvesting it- and I said so. You tell me it's wrong and then one of them said to me: it's only hurrah. If we sell it to Afghans, have we sell it over the? Well, that's not her arms are basically they said we can sell it to have weakened allow the people and other places. But we don't want to kill me. I kill Afghans so that was set up. There

ass. We I dont, see them ending that any time soon they're going to try to. I think probably final avenues to legalise it in the sense of countries that perhaps a friendly to them that need opium for fur medicine. I think that's they purchase, they seem like they gonna wanna. kisses to try to legalize it in some way. Now they were using the jails to they would call it rounding up a lot of the attics from the streets and and there's a lot of addicts in the streets and rounding them up and then putting them in jail cuz. They didn't have proper rehab, so that was said of the approach that the Taliban have been taking, Ankara's too. There was a lot of sadly the letter, young kids there's the cold. is there like a drug culture of some kind, or is it just something that sort of seeps into hey? This is what we grow. You start trying it. You start eating it

like one little boy that I talked to whose thirteen and he was addicted and he was in this jail and I said well, how did you start taking this and said several years ago? He'd have to go and buy it for his dad, so he'd go and buy, get they get their Benin poppies and heroin for his dad and then eventually, he d sooner tried at once and and and and he became addicted. So I think it is ten stoop to filter through families and really impoverish, families usual say here just now, you have actually do get like God detained in the kind of accused of being a smile. I would have said that was also in Kandahar. So what happened? These as a journalist soldiers took to go back a little bit. So when you get to the country as a joke, as you have to go today. The Ministry of Information and culture, which is sort of like the Ministry of Foreign affairs and they check your credentials and give you a measure, hid savvy element, it is. The spokesperson basically gives you assigned letter that says: you're credited journalists to be able to work

and you flash that, let us a when I'm going through a checkpoint. When I'm going to try to an interview I flash Samuel a ladder, and they say: ok, she's pressure can come in whatever the situation is so and when you go to a province you have to, the protocol is used post to go and inform the Minister of information and culture that you were there. so that they know that you can get through checkpoints and you not gonna get arrested. So in Kandahar, that's exactly we did, we learn to the Ministry of Information and call Jane, did an interview with him about blah blah blah, and he said: okay, you can go anywhere, you, the buyer, sort of thing so well, ok, where we're going to spin bold, which is the border of Pakistan in Kandahar that leads into into that travel area.

So into quota. So we go down to spend Baldock ambitious people everywhere. Trackers a border is mostly clothes and these people everywhere and instantly. I just get mugged like absolutely until he just just flooded by hundreds of people that just around me- and you know with my fixer- and I don't don't- leave me cuz. These people get him up me, so I'm trying to do anything. Just you just get mobbed it was. It was crazy in and the talents is cause you're Western Yang as they feel they are a camera and then they saw a female and they fell cages, everybody so the cure they want to tell the story was His object is, it happens. Flogging them like whipping. These guys to get them away from me, and I was like a please stop that, like I don't want to be responsible just take it. If I don't like you just getting,

and I was upset about it cause I didn't, want people getting hurt its why were you not leaving when it's up with me? I was bizarre, and so what ended up happening was just got to the point where so much they were just just people everywhere and what was the rising, and only this town was like what who? What we're gonna Thomas was the colonel super. The motors and bought his hand. Tat was just a border crossing. So was a small bite bit just so many. But they were just frigate hype to suggest suggestion was the craziest thing, and I aiming have a little bit, but this was a, however, the level where I just thought on my goodness. What is happening in don't go anywhere, and I will try to grab people to integrate them into a store and I'd look at the window and suddenly the store was surrounded. It was so crazy and I I just didn't so the Talibans we're coming along asking questions. What is happening and we tried to call the driver, We have this funny driver culture fake and he

he is always likes to each and every time he goes he'd testifying and suddenly shift. Not in the place that he left it. She figured gonna get foods at the command of their n N, n n a weed my fixer is calling should think here. Where are you where I his answering his phone answered the tunnel? and come along and police Vigo and we just try to closer facon, I'm telling them. we're leaving when leaving were just getting drive. We couldn't contact the driver, and the next thing you know tell him it's like I get in and ass. I don't want to get in your car and I want to go to the police station and they said no get in, and so we get into the police beagle we go to the police station, they put us in their detention room, we're sitting there for a long term thinking this is gonna, get resolved really quickly hours and hours and then finally, just more of them are piling in and the top Intel guys piling at an only son

bans are piling in an I'm showing them my credentials and showing in the letter I'm showing in the passport I'm showing them. I Prescott miss at all. This is fake ass. Now it's not. They said yes, it is and they will come accusing us of basically spying- and I said I do not want us to tell you Lest I showed you my credentials occasion, my passport, you have all my information, so I don't know what to tell you I was sitting them more. the coming in hammering as I can see my fixtures to get worried and he's a rarity is cool com? Doesn't really These are rattle in too much, but I can see he starting to to get worried him doesn't out to do. And they're telling us about these pakistani spies. They arrested couple and daily Erin and longer shall I eventually many hours later they were able to getting contact with these this Abiola's office. Who was able to verify how information

and then they were extremely politic and they said we will take you to the border and, Inter Communal, photographed the Pakistanis at that point that fighting with the Pakistanis so yeah, I guess, that was so so ended up going to the border and in getting some good into and footage, and they were very, very apologetic about the situation but That was just one of those that situations where that that usually is the case for journalists is that especially working in the Middle EAST or in Asia like Afghanistan, they will accuse you of being spies and you have little recourse to argue and sable. I've shows you my credentials, I'm not, but I don't know But I need to convince you anymore. You ve got like girls survivors bias, but will you make your courtesy? Could there so many people that this your story? always seems to end up working out

this as John taught war on that one one other hakata, you you visited coast cannot so last year, so that with that sort of wearing economies, a lot of them come from that impact here Yes, that was interesting, have a good friend of mine whose from past- and so we went down there- and you know it- It was an interesting place, cause it again as said of the home of the economies, but it was very untouched a lot of time by actual conflict. It was one of the few places where you had roads that were decent and that is very self sufficient. Of place but but yeah. What struck me in going in his big billboard of Bobo? That's is. There you enter, you enter the city and its breakdown another more like a salute? Turbot borderline? No, it's not it's him. Looking down in my key surrogate blood, his face and he's looking like his

detained and miserable. And then this is more standing in the picture next to him and its appeal in past show that doesn't really make a lot of sense, but its basic tribute the smaller and I'm still very early after your centres of Tribute Tributor Bobo, my sort of like a it's a tribute to the mola, but for some reason they felt the need to put the Bible. There is new and new bill, What and then I found out that the hostage the governor of host is actually one if they get my five, so I guess he put it up there too. celebrate himself in some way in here. Invited us to go into an interview, italian and up going because he didn't want. I met with the man, but I didn't go meet with him because my he didn't want my friend the friend that had the Hosty friend who had taken me to host. He didn't want her to go so I

I felt obliged it. I'm just explained the Taliban five board does know. So I guess when, when Bobo Doll was traded, he was what can capture? Do doesn't nine he ran of base. I think something deserted he's maize in in the neighbouring pact Thea, which is next to host, and he was kept by the Taliban and ultimately the colonies took him and he was a guess: yandah captivity for a long time in the french, landed, the Obama administration. I think it was in twenty fifteen day orchestrated a deal to release five get more detainees in exchange for for the one. U S soldier asylum and now now that wanderings guys is what the mayor, what is he's not govern our governance. The governor of past now yeah they're, all in top leadership positions. There running the show. their economies themselves. It means Mirage, is wanted by the. U S office

Five million dollars is now the Minister of Interior and he's Uncle Calais. Is the Minister of Refugees which yeah I don't know I don't know about, entails it's crazy. So how about that? Let's talk a little bit about this, so you know you mentioned Conny. You got Taliban economy in and Taliban arm very align right. If I they re kind of say there is no difference between the two, even others. While the Taliban economies are actually designated terrorist organization, but the Taliban is it, but I'm in Afghanistan, the very clear what now it's basically into, but I think before it was, there was sort of ideological differences and in many ways the colonies were being, the leading brutal attacks. Yet they were the Haug on most of the suicide bombings were orchestrated by. and they were the ones kidnapping who still have Americans and can get captivity. But some

and I mean I'm very close without kind. You know the founder of the colonies. How Conny himself here this was a guy that was, you know, funded by the CIA, ratified the Soviet Union Reagan call him personally a freedom fighter. Yes, that's so when we talk about things reimpose all right now They didn't tsar for a long time. They ve been very bizarre for a lot. We paid him. millions of dollars to the full reverse economy, and I think You mean it's an age of fascinating guy. You know he was on his gun two wives got seven sons, I think three or four. Sounds were killed in Cambodia and he hears the really of the one who brought alone the Arabs into the fold. So until that point it was very afghan Pakistan, he He started getting a lot of the arab funding which brought it. the Bin Laden's in a lot of that kind of funding? But, what what I found to be really interesting in in really researching the economies. Is

they very educated in their what they get a lot of education. The lot of, though their wives go to, please go to Saudi Arabia and get declarations which is ironic, given that seventy the women under the Taliban, deprived of education. So instead of this economy, but but everyone I know whose what closely or knows the colonies well will always say that twenty six ahead of everyone else like that They are the brainchild really of the Taliban, so they know what is going on down to a tea and syringe does not get further. There is not a photograph of Suresh that you can possibly find a grainy photography I have but its very old and very unclear. He does not get photographed at all and he didn't events. Once when I was there, which was celebrating suicide bombers at the interconnection a hotel which, of course, their colonies in a sense.

Sad bonus to several years, Ellie, the whole thing is great, and when did you go to this link with us on this? I didn't go in with this was in this was in late October. They had would giving land in compensation money to families of suicide bombers are doing get into cause. They very much continuing their suicide bombing despite being a government, but they are so he's doing his big event, there been in every photograph that was taken. It's him from the back with him from the side of his face is blood, and I two to one of my says there. Who was he works for him whose Cobble Intel Taliban guy I said: no one is up at that, and he says Sir Raj will walk around the streets. Every few days and nobody knows who he is so he will walk on the street to check in a what's happening at the checkpoints check, the Talibans are doing, and nobody knows who he is and he's going to keep it that way under cover by whispered. There gather it. The whole thing is just crazy and then you have

so he's, minister of the Interior, and then you have Mullah son, Son Malea Coop is only about twenty nine thirty. He is the Minister of Defence and those tube but heads they don't like each other. They coming from different schools of thought. So it's just so crazy world and then outside of those two groups. You have ISIS K. Yes, yes so they know they ve had a presence in Afghanistan since about twenty fifteen, but eventually with pretty much defeated, around twenty. I think the afghan government in early twenty nineteen basically said that they were defeated, and that was the who idea of the: U S his mission up and oh, I guess Trump authorized them to go after the Talibans, but up until then it was Al Qaeda and then ISIS and they really made it terrifying resurgence has almost daily attacks happening across Afghanistan, as I was there and- and they are like even more

Harcourt than her Haqqani. I may got a different ideology. So what may the Talibans and end Conny Stiff to ISIS and to Al Qaeda is the very tight and a very much focused on Afghanistan. They don't have any grandiose desires they they say. We want to make sure that no foreign is come into our country. We want good relations with everybody, but we don't want to another fine come into our country and our day. Isolation, yes, live very focused on Afghanistan, whereas groups like Eisen and Al Qaeda have a much more global ideology where they they want to see. As the finest said they want to see their interpretation spread throughout the world in and they're the ones that will plant attacks and in other countries said therefore, are viewed as it as a national security threat, whereas the Taliban is an end, that's really hard for the Afghans to its always be.

Has the Afghans are really wrapped the head around, because the Talibans were doing so many suicide bombings and attacks in and to them absolutely terrorists, and they couldn't. It was hard for me to explain to them Why? The? U S. Was sort of leaving the Talibans alone and going after these much smaller groups that were at that point not even doing that many attacks and that is is going back to well the towel and is not a threat to United States necessarily enough in and of itself the Jews. he went to the area where the Taliban blew up. The ancient Buddha staggered by me on payment, beautiful province, beautiful province, fifteen hundred years old those statues in was that was crazy, so what I talked to the Talibans about this about being a was that a mistake: and so they say no,

well. That was a mistake. That was the decision them, but now we're gonna protect everything, and so I went to a few other places of ruins the Taliban zero protecting. As I said, we are going to continue to apply these bodies or in Missouri neck and other places. Gay yeah yeah, that's our orders for now, But what we have to remember is this might be there always been now They didn't blow up those buddhas until early, two thousand and one so at that. We the Talibans it already being in control. What, since ninety ninety six, so it was left alone, and then Mullah Omar did it as an extortion, because he wanted the entire so communities give the Talibans money and the internet. community one so then he threatened or I'm gonna blow the, but is an and get the money. So he good and his promise of that's the thing with the Talibans right now. They might be ok where everything's, ok, but you don't they're going to do next month. You don't know how the orders will change and so

and you get there and it was bizarre because the Talibans are taking selfies in front of these blend output is- and I said, will you do know that they used you guys? He blew these up right. It is incredibly strange, but by me on, is a beautiful province. It just each you. I think when we think of Afghanistan, we just think of the war in the bloodshed, but it just is, is one of the most from remarkably aesthetically beautiful places in the world, and a name Bambi on is just a prime example of that it was the first national park in Afghanistan now there's a the drone strike. They killed. The first potato and planner, and you D Law little investigation on that as well. Yes, I went there a few times, so that was just outside delighted in Nankeen ha so Nang. It has always been the hub for four ISIS K. It's on the Pakistan border on the east, and it's just that

where you know tore bore, is where Bin Laden went and hid immediately. I also went out to the demolish sign, if you remember than the: U S: dropped that massive mother, Oh bombs and beginning twenty seventeen s also in Napkin ha, so so there's an area the couple of different areas, but but that particular area was a district court Sakharov and that was just outside of Jalalabad and it's one of these very eerie places in you there and you feel like this skin inured hackers standing up because it just doesn't feel right answered. The house that was hit was in the Falcon was actually really nice house compared to in a lot of the mud huts and things. This was a nice of brick com and we went into the home we could really see where it was. Hitler was feeble, so precise, it was just a keynote. This one section of the backyard in this chair that had been blown up in

thing else was touched, so I went and talk to the neighbors there in and one of the guys who who was there as the during strike hit, which was close to midnight. He was on the gag, as God, Judy on a roof across and He said have said that that there was a strange guy, that sort of hadn't been living there, that long, but but would come and go and yet hit that night and then to immediately. I guess a car came and took the women out of the house and the children, and then the next day a bunch of Talibans came in and were were taking things out taking flags taking. He said he didn't know what they're taking but big boxes that we're just weighing the car down and then Talibans went in there after that and took out. Morphing saw a I guess from the house, and then he said that the those Talibans were found without their heads hanging on a tree, the next big,

a couple of days later with an stamped led a next to it basically saying anybody who remove these bodies is going to tat kind of be next, and he said eventually that is someone from another district came to collect them, but they would just hanging there on that tree for for many days, because people are afraid of ISIS in Asia that every night of you This comes in heat. They they come in and take control, but during the day it's very much the Taliban doing patrol the Taliban get scared and disappear, and then they yet the asses has come in at night and even showed me his own warning letter. He got from the Talibans for doing a local use interview after that drawing strike, and then he said that the Taliban, so the interview in and bird then accusing him of being the one that gave the location to the forerunners. So it's complex and then the actual ices controlled Santa where a lot of these people come from is the next district over which has traffic also. So we went in to that one day which I dunno

smartness decision, but I am here today, you should play lottery when a lot so I know, you left what the first first yet first of December guess so, like a few, days a week ago where, as you, you look back z, anything else. Any other high point chimera me there's a lot of stuff. You view on you website you ve got a link to a bunch of the articles that yeah Novia and I have a subject that I also described that I usually put on all the articles into and also over the extra cost. How did they get to the substantial? So it's just I even get a strict for my website or a scare. It's in your your website is were Holly Matter AOL. I e M, seek a wide come through the subject, yeah go into some more detail there, but, as you

look what's goin on. What's what's going on now. This is disaster, I mean I One thing that you'd mentioned to me is like oh, it's sort of the v. I guess the that like the ground or the most granular sort of point zero for the disaster. Is like what happened to the military working dogs are left behind in and that with such a big story? If everybody remembers as about a hundred and thirty dogs, any cities pictures of him at the airport and so I wanted to to follow up on that and find out what what happened to those dogs, because the deity was very quickly to come out, say they weren't, you, military dogs, but they will contracted dogs so long or short, is that the indifferent and contracting companies had given his dogs to accomplish small animal rescue, which is run by a woman named Charlotte, and she was task

Getting the map, but when she got to the airport was basically told you know you can't get all these dogs in the aim and eagerly take out where you can carry. So there was a controversy. Oh my gosh. These dogs are being abandoned. Pit, in she. Somebody really does amazing walkin in rescuing these animals and caring for them. So I wanted to follow up and find out what happened to them I talked to her and she said they were covered about seventy most of them. not my half probably been killed by the Talibans, and then you had so alone. spaniels, which a very friendly dogs had run up to the hell of ends in and the Talibans just and not they dont have dogs as pets when they had the rule in the nineties, dogs were outlawed. They considered on clean by the Taliban to kind of cats, but not dogs.

So a lot of them are shot and then they sort of sword that these dogs had gotten so much attention and thought will this is a bit of a bargaining chip, so they kept a lot of the german shepherds because they thought that all of the gem Shepherdsons be God, dogs, even a lot of them, were not trained, as God dogs, but you see especially the EP. in other places. The Talibans walking around these dogs at the have no idea what I'm doing written he sounds like they don't look like you know, so to some of them survive. Some of them will to run around the airport companion and some of them got out so yeah it. It was a sad situation and we can do eighty four days you know. Obviously humans have to get priority of a dogs, but I think we all can agree. We we love yeah well. What about that? What about the like the home from a humanitarian perspective of what's going on there now is an absolute disaster, and that is that that is the heartbreaking thing is the to give you some content: when I got there, was seventy Afghans to one you US dollar, it was it had a hundred by the time I left, so that just shows

You how quickly that devalued there there Danny devalued the currency people can afford bread. People can afford despair. see things there. There is no middle class and Afghanistan anymore. It's people selling their belongings on the street. You cry he's gone through the roof again, it dropped initially, because I think people are in fear that gonna get the hand chopped off and when it became prevalent that wasn't going to happen at least not right. Now, the crime, my back up in its egos of these public hospitals, and I mean they're just there, The amount of malnourished babies that are just dying on mass and in the mothers are on the floor breastfeeding, and it was something I'd really just never seen to that degree and it broke my heart because of the amount of money that that we as Americans in the amount of treasure in the amount of people in the amount of effort that had been put into this and end. This

the result, and it's only going to get worse during the winter and and and and the USA and other countries are going to have to make this very uncomfortable decision Do we on freeze this money? This nine point, five billion that was frozen when the Taliban took over in the World Bank and an international monetary fund also froze Dewey and freeze that enable this government to to support a country of thirty eight million, because there is no money coming in is obsolete and money. cannot get money out of the banks, the ear it was. It was very challenging to work in because of that environment, We're gonna have to make this decision of. Do we work with this government so that these innocent afghan people, who have already gone through so much can survive and have some kind of dignity in their lives. Or are we going to just a guess? Turn away and say no to these people at a human rights violators, we're not going to talk to them and enter

slate them in, and I always look back in history, and I hope that we do not make the same mistake because their work no more isolated government than the Taliban during their first reign in the nanny through to two thousand and one the black bull by everybody. They had no money, the one person who came in and gave the money and not very much one point. Five million. I think it was- was a sum of Bin Laden, the one who came in and gave them money, and so naturally they were gonna protect him. Naturally, when the USA hand him over Mullah Omar said now, he's the only one who came in and gave us money, so it's a very complex decision and there's going to be alive,

of people that feel very strongly in many ways, but it's an uncomfortable decision that needs to be made on a diplomatic level of how we're gonna do with this, because I think the afghan people are being thrown off and and they don't deserve any invader- deserve to suffer the ramifications of this any more than they already have, and that's that sort of the incumbent, choice. There isn't many options, do you as when you got back to America by guesses? will they discover, even even as you are, you know, overseas in your online, and you are looking at the way that stories were being presented and the way that the events were being presented with. Now that you know the way the media and social media and emotional media works. Now what was your you know? What was the death between what you were saying and what the world is being fed? There was caught his eye

me. So if I was just to look at twitter and to look at what was happening, I would think there was mass slaughter on the street. I would think that that the Talibans were going out and people from their homes and and and Thirdly, there are isolated cases of that happening, but that was very much the exception. Not the norm and that was not accurately reflected a thank you, You know a strange as it is the Talibans were trying to, Oh, this image of of that they want to be recognised. Is it safe to say that the Taliban is trying to re brand? Yes, absolutely, and- and I think you know there's a lot of this- I hear a lot of what they haven't changed since the two thousand and new or their faster. and then I listen. I don't think that's accurate. They have changed. They changed locked in many different respects butts. but you have a lot of the information I sing about these. Just you know: mass slaughter, I think there was one thing where an l.

People ask me about it. There was a rumour going around about a girl that had been the headed by the Taliban and when I looked into it now ass my fix it look into it. It turned out that she had been killed in July, I said before the Talibans came in, but it was an internal family conflict. It had nothing to do with you, and yet this is being presented as This just happened last week in and she's being beheaded, I saw it Kim Kardashian. Someone was then retweeting at and putting it on, a story and then a million more people are asking me- and I thought this is how this cycle perpetuates. But if I was to to sum up the situation it was certainly terrible. Things were happening, but it wasn't what was being, painted you know, as I said I I could work freely in and and unharmed, and I was only wearing a job, so a lot of the information just was was wrong and end there was something even saw. You know there was a picture that was going around where it was a woman in a book or, and she had a chain around her ankle and was being led by a husband people was saying this is Afghanistan.

under the Taliban. I looked at you, quick reverse search- and you say, honour that was designed three Iraq and somebody Photoshop to chain to this woman's ankle, so There was so much of that and dumb, and I think they really were. Few journalists that were in there- I didn't I didn't mean to any other Americans. I met a couple of Americans that came in and then left again, but General There was just a few european journalists that came in, and so a lot of the work was being down from from outside the country, and I think it just shows you the ports of being on the ground in a lot of these organizations. Dont want to invest in that any more better. Understandably showed me the importance of of having their ground perspective cause it's it's so different to what you see just sort of an aggregating or even talk Two people, and I think a lot of into interviewees were talking to the diaspora people that have fled, but their perspective was. a longer in Afghanistan, so yeah there's a lot of disinformation.

The uno. Be it No one knows right. We all know what the Taliban do you know they were pretty brutal their last. You know I'm in power from ninety ninety five. Ninety ninety six up no two thousand one up until up until the northern alliance in America went in there, and I mean had some some. Bad things happened right starvation and just bat. Some bad stuff happened. I mean through a horrible, Certainly you know definitely human rights violations and all that stuff absolutely has happened in and you know it was obviously there were some reports of terrible thing. Happening again in its heart no, but to your point, unless you You have people on the ground, you it. buried. It makes it even more difficult to actually know what's happening and make decisions on what you're gonna do when you

basing it on Photoshop. images You mentioned Osama Bin Laden. What was. Talk to us a little bit about us, Women's lobby, Osama Bin Laden's presence in the psyche of the afghan people now. What did you observe from our perspective yeah? So I really think his legacy is still very strong and Afghanistan, and even is that I went to you know in again the Jalalabad, the information and culture minister. There is talk, Mr De Giovanni stories, some have enlightened sounds like oh. You weigh me way now ongoing, so But you see that legacies of carry through and in their own power because of him and again it goes back to he's the one who sort of came in and gave the money. When no one else would

so in return for that they gave him gave him safe, harbour and its under that code of Passion Wally, which is really the highest moral code that these that the passions have in protecting guests in and it's the same courage. They used to protect. Somebody like me who this is a guest in their country. So it's it's a very complex sort of thing, but Boeing talk to regular Afghans or or students or people that you know young twentysomething fate. They don't know who he is. It is interesting, as you said, a look at this war and new is that was continuing to go on and in yet you sort of have the people that are a court in the cross fire just sort of have no idea of what what happened in and what the background is in and why this is all kind of still going on. So it's interesting and AL still gonna exists in Afghanistan to my understanding from the town

and is that they have been told that they are not allowed to do any, take any military actions that they have to their land to be in the country, but they have to two to stop either not plant anything or doing thing otherwise, they'll be in trouble, but I think a lot of the times to a lot of those kind of members have just been basically folded in into the Talibans and a part of the intelligence units or a pot of that whole operation. I was definitely some. Your articles mentioned the fact that you know twenty year old Afghan did really know who Osama Bin Laden was yeah. So times when I get in discussions with people about the divisiveness in America all reference. The fact that I worked with a bunch of different companies am, I holding company and more people that you talk to them thinking about? What's happened on twitter right now we're not thinking about this. There are thinking about what they're doing the thing about their job to thinking about their company. The thinking about moving you know now

gonna grow, how they're gonna go new markets. That's what you're thinking about that's what they're doing that for their life is. Is it similar her? I been I guess this is a rhetorical question, but did you find the same thing in Afghanistan? Most people are like ok, well, the Talibans in charge of the northern alliance in charge. I wanna, you know continue to give a job done in brain. family and move kind of forward like can't leave me alone type. Then you have two camps. You have the people whose entire days is fixated on trying to get out try to get out of Afghanistan trying to get out of this really two camps in you is even now just every day, all day in my my messages linked in everything is just flooded. How do I get it? How do I get up so you have that camp and then you have another camp of people who had just basically,

I know that I can't go anywhere in this is the new reality. So how do I survive? And how do I feed my family in and that's really what it comes down to? It comes down to survival, especially now with the the crisis being what it is there and the challenges of of day to day life, water, water, people when so many messages you you get ten messages about. I wanted I want to get out to get out why they want to get out. What are they what's handsome exiting you have you have people that I certainly have legitimate reasons to get out of my lot of the commission is that I met with iter in terrified because the commanders really leading the charge and allow the fights and- and they very concerned about retaliation. But then you have a lot of people who who again what I found a lot of people who were may be drivers work for different companies who are desperate and terrified to get up. But when I talk to them I say: will waste threat nobody's been threatened or their passing around a what's up letter that everybody is being given

that spake, fake or so in a way that the fear is contagious and again that's what I'm saying the free. It doesn't always match the reality and what I found it was that people forward sciences and my name is scared and everybody scared, so I'm gonna have to be scared to and I'm gonna have to leave so that was, it was contagious and and that's what I found that a lot of the the worries were were self inflict it as opposed to an actual real threat. That was then gotta, be like a massive level, though of like suppression. Right right if you're a person that was sort of in mind. It is in this direction. There now like it's over yeah, it's over yeah and in, and you don't get an especially for women to you know, that's deeply challenging goals is still not able to go to the to public school. Is he its goals are still open, but secondary schools have been closed for girls now for months in the Talibans keep saying it's because we ve got to make sure that they have transport that separate the man I said

Great will get you some buses on and there's another escaped. So I'm so what's happening, that being a women that will definitely used, are going to work and to other places and now they're at home, and that's heartbreaking women. I met with many women whom you were doing we know that the national sort of tack window teams or in the national tennis team, article about their soccer team to you now and now that then then allowed to to to do. There not even practice little go into any tournaments. Even I met the top Emma guy there, as well as senior great fighter he's acting to fights, are away from. You have seen and he's like, we can't find any more and he said they tried to do a five. The Talibans told them that they have to wear like for clothing, which he said you we obviously can't do that and the Taliban came to their first fight and broke it up and kind into a big mess but

these concerned because he can't get out but any trying, but in a he someone who used to go to each match with the police of the police, the no afghan police flag and me and was very much per day, Foma Security forces, and so you know it's tough for the guys to, even even though they can do mean a little bit more than the women bit. Music is completely kind of outlawed and and and arts and all of those sorts of things during a monologue paying any people were now the paying any living things or from when you Eddie living things or photograph any living things. I haven't been to a strict about that again, Germany have been outlawed. Yes, like some drum we're, while they they have this their music. Is this sheet music to drive me crazy, so they get into the car and they put in you know insistent before somewhere emotions Talibans, would get in the car and they

putting their machines, and it was just this, its islamic music without instruments, it's overcoat, and then this bomb blasts and bullets just like they ten it up and as it like the motivation. It's a battlefield, music and there's like this is crazy and that's. They play online, the Talibans, they moved next door to the house that I was living in. So I would deliberately gonna get me to pay Can you get a big heads has lasted heavy going we'll be right with me. I was like you know it's time to go home attired. So here's here's what I friends this is what so hard to really content as it as a human being right? What purse an inch of people are our are don't want it to be this way right. What percentage of people don't want to be this way and would give anything to go back to whatever too the thousand and nineteen

and be moving in a certain direction. Have the females read you go to school and be able to play your guitar be able to do Mme? What percentage population feels. that way verses. What percentage of the population wants to go back to the old Taliban ways and strict Shoot Sharia LAW, I'm not Can you give you can make an estimation, but its very difficult and then ok. if you're, that, if Ninety per cent is on board for Sri alone. That's what we're doing and pave the ten percent that aren't on board with it believe you. just get out of here, because this is what we're doing or is it Ninety percent of the population wants to just go back to, in two thousand nineteen move in that direction: move towards a more open society and if the case and it's just a strict small percentage of people that maintain power and control veal force and brutality. Well, then,

then what are we supposed to do? So? think there's really again when we see what the media, what we seeing is always generally coverage, is coming out of Kabul or coming out of a city and I tried to really make an effort to two to go to as many rural areas and provinces, because the perspective there is completely different. So I'd say you, going to estimated somewhere. Like cobble you, eighty percent of people want that. Previous, life because they were able to gain there was bars. I was music, the you could go to clubs, you could go to get out. All. You could do all these things because you had that foreign footprint there, but you got to the villages and

that are already very conservative where the women, don't necessarily you know, go to school past the age of thirteen and that a very much relegated to the home, and they don't leave, and that's just customary because that's that's the way that their life is their lives are actually going to get better. And I say that because they don't have to face the daily bombings anymore, they don't have to deal with the ramifications of war, but their actual lives aren't gonna change because they were never really privy to all those sort of new western inspired. If you will freedoms, sir- Oh you can make the argument that enough for them they now have a more peaceful life, but in the cities that way really see we women and people losing a lot of those freedoms and and suffering but but what I think is also interesting. That came out of this was the number of Talibans that were embedded into the military in government into every possible avenue in every city.

And suddenly, when the Talibans were able to take power. These people came out. People I knew. For years and years and years were working journalists, its fixes said to me: I have been Taliban for twenty years. another out, you know and so on. Friends of mine, you know? I had a meeting with my fix her a good friend of his. He was saying that someone has known since he was very young when the Taliban took power. Suddenly he finds out his talent and, like it's just these people kept. Secrets for so long, and I think that is also why the telephones were able to come to power so quickly they into infiltrated every possible new government entity that they could what they do with the Taliban doing with their with the with the better equipment that they took over, so I you know is interesting. So I did a tour of the airport just before I left and and We still see a lot of the damaged across the- U S blue apple or the aircraft before it left, but you see are, they still have all those russian russian helicopters that are still there and, and they

have a lot of entities. They brought back a lot of the technicians from the previous government trained by the. U s and now they are able to to help in a repair wherever they can am, and they still do who have very limited our power. But I know that something that trying to build, because the air force is something that that they want that they didn't have before and is funny because I was ever sitting outside a one one afternoon in any see there was. There was a big black ass, a big bahman and the smoke in the air, and it was just it was down at the military hostile very close, and next thing you know you hearing top as in the air- and I said I haven't heard this for ages. It was going on and they were flying a black hawk and two of the Russian MH when seven's and they will had apparently dropped a suicide bomber onto the hospital. Could access was attacking it again. They still using suicide bombers. Fur situations like that, but yeah crazy. No, it was that it was an ongoing here was an ongoing, know thing, but

so they certainly have the capacity if they need it. But this angle, just gonna- use it for important and urgent circumstances. So, yeah a thing is, is backwards, but yeah actually to a suicide bombing school that I found, which is in a kindergarten on the edges, bible where they train the suicide bombers, you have these men does begging begging to be chosen. Just pick me pick me it's like the highest. no, no, that they could possibly take and in that of despair. Being in government now, there's no plans to get rid of the suicide bombing schools, What are you seen for lessons as you look at it now you're? Looking back on it, you ve been gone for a week now. Would you look at what what kind of big picture DJ took lessons are using my biggest thing that too drive home is you we can talk all day about.

Terry Strategies and and the Taliban military strategies. But at the end of the day, I feel like a broken record saying this, but corruption, corruption, corruption, corruption, the last government backed. The- U S there, So much corruption every possible level to the point where You wanted to go and get an interview at the US embassy, just an interview if you were at university graduate who wanted to to get a job at the embassy cuz. That was, that was a cool thing to do You had to pay a middle person about five thousand dollars just to get an interview, let alone. If you want to get a job, then you'd pay them a whole bunch more, and that was in every government institution money, Ino an end. This is what I would get angry back cause. I would tell a lot of these afghan, thus it that's my money as a you ES taxpayer stolen money or not you personally, but your previous government, you stall our money and took that a new line, your pockets, Kabul, could be Divina, tutor,

in dollars, and this is what is come from it, and that is because the corruption every level- was just saw, rampant and so disgusting and even and when, in all of these walls and people are fleeing the country and the Taliban are taking over. There was just there was chunks of gold that they would keeping Ino hidden underground, just wads of cash that we just unfathomable numbers- and there was no I think that you could do to get through daily life, without paying a bribe enow together, attack plan paying a bribe to get whatever you need. It like. A lie for Afghans was difficult because of this institution, shies corruption. There the. U S looked at and said this is true. Systemic first do anything about. We just have to leave it, but really me that was the root of the problem. So people looked at the afghan looked at that and the like, Why am I starving here when this

local governor is, is being rollin around and with all this money in rolls Royce in all these fancy things, and I You know I have to pay every day every time just to get to my job and that's what they hello, been really capitalized on that day capitalized on, where we are not going to be corrupts, you know that's again, disallow we are going to support it, but a treat everybody the same, and so people that didn't even ideologically want to be with the Talibans. They were doing to that end, I have seen that in many countries you want to fight against it I that you feel is stealing from you and it just got The point: where was it was seven you had. You had judge is in provinces or a lawyers just falsely accusing people of something and making them to court, so they could get bribe money so edges- and it was Just- was on every possible level, even even at the hospital you had medical staff, stealing the surprise

supplies that they could go and sell them at a local pharmacy or because they are their own pharmacy, and that was gonna. Them better money than the government salary, so if you're going to go into a country or give country any sort of form of foreign aid. I hope the? U S or in the current ABBA countries can learn that lesson of few. Don't stop that! Writing the beginning, if you dont hull people accountable and there was there was never accountability to any of the corruption or stolen money. This is the reason you gonna again and oh, that in Iraq to we in a people joining us is because they wanted to fight back against the government who they felt was stealing from animal, corrupt and suppressing them and it wasn't about. We want to be devices, because we agree with us ass. It was now where we want to fight this government because they're not here for us, not slow But when you pull the string on Vietnam, the south vietnamese government was just. clearly corrupt and a lot of the issues that they.

Were due to the exact same type of corruption in the hole the whole. system operated on through corruption and scratching other backs, and it money here and pioneer own pockets, and you know that was just the way it works, and I was a huge part of the issues that they had and why its eggs This is where the exact same thing scene and again, I know that Tom, you know you ve, been you been gone you over there for August September October November December. That's like a deployment. Deployment into a into a war zone where everything's fallen apart. What is that that's I mean. Are you coming back this time? What the it how's it has. The transition back to reality. Back to normal norm normal american life. Here it was incredibly difficult. I think for me to leave this time, felt tremendously guilty about leaving because I knew that I can?

As an Australian ended American, I can gets. You know, I am able to get a flight out to Abu Dhabi in unable to leave freely when something obviously a lot of Afghans one. I fought tremendously guilty because again I never think my life is any more valuable than theirs. I just happened to be lucky enough to be born in indifferent geographical coordinates that have given me a different different passports and and and very different life- and you know that, after as some of the most truly beautiful people, their Jesse so hospitable, very kind. I have a great love for the Afghans. I always say that I've been any places in the world that I have never quiet said a fallen in love with a place, though EF I fallen in love with, have gonna turn over the years, and it's just it's very special people and I felt tremendously guilty dishonest.

In a walking away from them, and I knew that it was time to leave, and I knew that new summit, decisions that I felt that I was making as journalists were I was taking risks that I knew where what were I shouldn't be taking anything when you get to that point when you sort of maybe don't care so much about the outcome. It's time to take a break, and that's a point that I think that I got into in especially with going into the ices areas and even my photographer was hesitating, and I was ok, I'm fine. I and I didn't have the same I think that normal reactions he should have to those situations just seen the natural sense of fear or worryin. and so anyway, so I knew it was definitely time shake a break with that, but I think, yeah, I felt very guilty, especially those first few days. I was just wanting to turn around and immediately go back, but SAM

fast, and so I couldn't go for a run and I'm a big runner. I couldn't give her run for another five months. Instead of fest thing I did when I got to New York with guy for a run and running, and I look and I see a sign for a beauty sullen on the sidewalk. I said: oh they free. And the beauty silent now is my first instinct and Ethel hang on immunity in a year in New York City now say: you're not cobble, so AIDS is actually it's. It's it's a strange transition. As I said when I'm driving down I'm looking at the words thinking how great they are and how great is this road? Why did nobody Bonn this bird and didn't just remembering remembering where I am so? He had some it's a little bit of it. transition, but and so how long you gonna stay home for I didn't have a home renowned occur because I don't want you gonna see weathers bed I do need to get. I am actually that is the objective for early to any early twenty twenty to scare

I am going to get a home, and so I have a good pace. So I I think I need in America. Yes, so I can probably probably Virginia, I think maybe I kind of like that area and then what's on the horizon? For me, nobody I do for work wise. Are you going to? Are you going to be how you wrote only cry for the living, which is incredible book that really give such clear picture of every that went went on, but the ICES battlefield in the Levant. What are your plans on their stuff, so I have so Jacob. My photographer and I have a further book, were working on and he's got. Some really is beautiful pictures of Afghanistan throughout this transition, and then I am going to knuckle down and get the writing for that done to serve is a wage present? I guess Afghanistan to people in every visual way. You know just sort of showing people what what it's like to to be there through the fall and then in that period after it

and who the Afghans are? Who the Taliban, who are all these different play? Is so that's the running project I'm working on and then just get continuing to do. John Ilysm and little bits and pieces of a things here and there sir. How much writing this contact your book down, but a huge amount it's not gonna be super word intensive because of the pictures, so probably have so much material already, it's really just a matter of sitting down and and sorting through what I think is going to be the most compelling to go with the pictures that we ve already elected Sir Colonel Wicker Humans of New York. Behind our more like humans of Afghan yeah a little bit and then said of going to some of the some of the decisions and some of the major things that were done and and and said and explain things in, and it in a way that I hope people can resonate with really that's gonna be that'll, be awesome. I mean I didn't think of that action until just now, like the humans of New York, was fascinating african.

Obviously, your beer Jake take just just leaching picture after picture over there. I'm sure he's got incredible for gas and then the contacts that you can put around those and the history they can put around them in the knowledge that you have that some would be awesome, jester yeah continuing with the rising and then I will return to Afghanistan. Probably in the spring is my is my. at the Talibans or have me back and not to mad a lot of stuff I've written some of them have been premium as contact you. Sometimes I contact my fixer in and threatened. Had. I had an issue with one Talibans for a long time that destroy me, nuts, I have a little bit worried about him. Actually, what did you say about? He was just very angry about everything and angry and adjust distant. Angry person but eventually I just I just I don't care men care nothing here, come and get me, I don't care where we can get you here.

Maybe hobble. I sighed thought. Should I leave Nedda NASA come and give me time to come and get me come to them, ass. If he's worried comes the has seems like. Where do you live us onto that? But anyway he backed off and went away, but most to them. I think I think they have immediately that tries to read through three three Threed Rita reports, but their desperate for recognition, so they want they want attention but air increasingly becoming very cracking down on a lot in the beginning now very open and very freedom was quite easy to get the interviews, but toward the end it became very difficult to to get any approval well no? You can't you remind me of Alex Homo Dinner that aside, Alexandre does the rock climber they climbed L cap without any robes and Yes, they do like tests on him and there's no

He has what he registers less fear than a normal human rights. I think your kind of like that you register last year, the normal human, so El Capitan. three thousand feet in Yosemite straight up and he climbed it with no rupture in credit. movie about it called free solo, but I would he did that I remember just like man. I hope that I never climbs about ropes again, of course he does it all conquest, that's where he is so when you got back come like ok, cool. I hope you never go over there again, but I guess that's like asking on Alex hobbled, not to do what he loves yeah. I guess I am very grateful for the fact that I I just I feel compelled, and I really do love what I do and I don't at this point in my life economy engine not doing it. I don't know what I don't know what I would do it Like curiosity, Korea

city. It's it's just its being put this rough draft of history that I just think is just a fastened. being experienced to Heaven and it's something I really thought about a loss You know you sitting with all these Talibans and in their bragging about killing Americans and their bragging about shooting down. american helicopters and in there and I I really had to reflect on and a little bit, because I thought I mean this situation in a what is my job here and and- and I think journalists can do. Is it's it's not to hay here the stuff of having a voice and giving people platforms? No, that's not how I see, job. I see my job is being able to communicate the other to the people, and I say that, because we have to understand the way that they think

and we want to its very easy to paint. Things is black and white, as as as this is the good guide, this is the bad guy, but you have to understand why they do what they do where this comes from their impetus is in and that's the way that I sort of see a lot of journalism is not to go in and interrogated or to stick to them or to you just, to go in and have a conversation and sometimes that I find it to be really difficult because in his somebody that's that's, bragging about killing, Americans or an yet I'll have to go in there and have tea and talk to them and in its its balance of of sort of this compartmentalization with writing from a place. If you Kennedy. But I see that is that communication is being something that that really journalist can do the best, because you know we aren't government employees so we don't have to. We can speak to anyone. We want an end. I think it's important job to be able to to understand in a way that coming from and what that objective is in

you know, one of them said something interesting. I'd love to get what your response, because I didn't have a but I just didn't, have a response but he he looked at me and he said you know. If how would you feel if I went to Australia and I sat in recruiting Australians to kill other Australians? Wouldn't you want to fight me back. My thought about it for a really long time- and I didn't I didn't have- I Didn'T- have a great responds because, as I said earlier, Afghans will not the ones who do who drove those planes into into New York. That was, they were Howdy Osama was found in Pakistan, so we can sort of bade about what role Afghans relieve and had in those attacks. and so I am putting myself in his shoes. We know I didn't have a great response for how do you respond to that

no that's the important thing about what you said earlier, and this is something that we don't do a great job of and by we I mean America and West, the west in general is, trying to understand where the people are thinking? and if you don't understand whether people are thinking as this is what Sun Tzu said twenty five hundred years ago in the art of war, do you have to understand what you're cloning, what your enemy is thinking, you don't understand what their thinking you're the winning go down dramatically. So time you try to impose your thoughts on the enemy or you assume that you understand what you're thinking you're making you're, making a huge mistake, you're, making a huge strategic mistake when you let that happen. So when you talk what you do as a journalist of Saint ok, let me set my emotions aside and let me listen and let me ask Ernest questions about what their thinking and why there feeling that way, and then you actually listen what they have to say. That is something that people happy

should you every single day, first of all, as a leader in any organization, as apparent in in a family as a child, old and a family in a spouse in a relationship. in a governmental situation. That's what we sure, do that's what you need to learn. How to do is true. And understand what other people's perspectives are, and you can only understand what other people's perspectives are. If you ask me questions and you actually listen to what they I have to say, and you probably figure out that what you thought they fought is not accurate. Sir, oh there's a you know, there's a whole a whole road to go down with that, but that something that we don't do very well- and you know I think journalism nowadays is a whole. It's just a while. It's not what it used to be. Certainly, I think, you're about as close to an old school journalist of Europe. I'm another's others that are like you, but you are in the model of the school journalists that out there to gather

information and kind of report what's going on You said you know your report and about what the the, The new northern alliance was, how will they fought and you, like other there wasn't much of a fight and people are mad at you Superman super mad at you, because you told what you saw an now. Maybe if you too said there was no fight and ninety there was no fight it all I don't remember your quotes from that article, but you don't like hey. I didn't see any fighting. I saw You know the Taliban moving very dominantly through the area, so you literally saying what you're saw You're leaving room for you even said today is that hey there might have been more fighting in amounts that I didn't see but you're saying from what I saw on these heavily populated areas There wasn't any resistance when it was very limited resistance. I saw one rocket: that's not a lot of resistance, so I think that that

people listening. Asking earnest questions is something that the world is forgot. How to do part of it is. I would the driving fact, and that is our own egos to think I know sector worse thing to say the word. Thing to say, and even worse thing to think is I know, I know what you're thinking. I know what their thinking. I know what the enemy is doing. You don't you dont, know and the minute you think you know, is when you are making mistakes. assuming that you understand things and you dont so I think what you are doing is extremely important. I still go with the Alex hobbled. I I you actually dont want you got back to Afghanistan, but I know you're going to be safe and and we'll keep track on you anything Are you gonna questions? Yet? What exactly is a fixture? So, sorry, I there is something the journalists or Ngos, even but primarily journalists. When we going to foreign countries, we hire civil

uncle person, sometimes their former journalist. Sometimes I just a connected person and they your help. often will be a translator and they will help us to help us facilitate interviews in and make calls and- and this kind of work with us as some sort of like a united that are calling my fix in a way that producer. So it sensibly he's kind of like producing harass. You know is doing a lot of the background and it was. funding when we're Pakistan, because for the law twenty years all the Afghans in and the fixes have been speaking diary, which is a sort of an afghan dialect of passion. but now it's all pasture everything's written imposture, because that's that's what the the Talibans use. So a lot of people that we know fixing the twenty is suddenly like. Why can't speak the language that needed so is a big big, turns a lot of the fixing of all, if the countryside is very much a- we had to find new people to work with. So is all the big learning curve

can I go the LAS Vegas VIP host. I grew up with this. Echo has de facto new he's got that different. Round the Friday club industry for a while, so for him ass, the vip. Oh yes, you in that backroom Obama. We talk to fret over here. We didn't give my bioethics areas you now having to talk to the national. These people, S Polly, can find you at Hollingford a dot com you're on Instagram Holly ass in its h, o L, L, I e S, Mackay Mackay is just empty K. A why you're on twitter you're on Spock. It was crazy to watch you on Instagram when you are over there. see you putting hike

to Graham live than yours. Reedy, like oh, you ridden people stories like. I look at echoes, Dooryards. I keys in his kitchen these making her free given sandwich of on posting that I've got to work out and you like I'm in a hotel in more recent bazooka Sharif and wait a second. This is interesting, so people time, ok, that's a dot. Substantial come, I think, is the Euro. Yeah. Ok, so decides that! That's when you put your information are awesome, Holly, anything else thank you for having me infer, yeah, letting me Tucker, the more about Afghanistan. I think it's very easy for these things to fall off the news once once seen, the evacuation happened and it fell off the sort of the rate of very quickly, but I think it some

and it's very important to Americans and important to you, know to my generation who really grow up. You know, with after nine slash, eleven and and so many people that I knew that went to fight there, and I think it's important that that we keep Afghanistan. You know somewhere and now mine Well, you're certainly helping us to do that, and thank you for coming back to talk to us and think for making it to talk lesson thanks for letting us know for all. due to go out there and let us know what actually happening and reporting it so, The world knows what's really happening, it's Finally, an ear ie window. into the heart of darkness and ads. big risk for you to go in there physically meant we spiritually but you're, doing meaningful work,

and it does have a big impact on the words of thanks for down at anchor appreciated. Thank you thanks hard and with that Holly Mackay has left the building awesome that she could stop by and kind of share some of that stuff with us. What what That's crazy! Isn't in the world time seems like all those craziness has gone on in the world what're, you gonna do about it. I haven't you help. It look I don't know what you're gonna do for some young girl, that's getting no education in Afghanistan right now. I'm not sure what you can do about that. I'm not sure, but I do know this. You got little control over your world, go on your world trade, make your world a little bit better. That's my recommendation. Men, that's cool! see how she mentioned the corruption I come. Well, I I mean, of course,

I'm gonna be like em to lay down for corruption. Loans can think that for the most part, so, but you don't we understand how important that is to be, like legit and squared away in that way, and I really had no idea what she was gonna say when I asked her that question because even reading, through articles and stuff you I thought, maybe tat, some strategic thing about the way we treated the trial. You noticed what I whatever kind of the more more common plants it you'll hear about how Afghanistan was handled, and the other was definitely very interesting and insightful aspect to bring up how devastating corruption can be. Because not then, then it's kind of like thing works the both to work right here. Nothing works the way exposed to work when people are corrupt. Think about everything. The way things are supposed to be another way. Yes, she said something super quick to

said sub group, but as it, oh, that kind of put lad. Add the corruption into this. This point where she said some of the ICES Fighters Joint ISIS, not crazy, so with ideology is just because their governments so corrupt, and it's like bright with, like the government, has so much power over an individual anyway? So if this like their corrupt, they're just tired of that correctness and there like in what I wanna join this group, who sure there's stuff is kind of crazy. But at least I can fight I can have some power against this. This government that I'm powerless against that's corrupt, wee wee. It's two things going on. We take it for granted in America that things are corrupt and we take it for good. In America that things are corrupt. You viewed my double meaning on this. What I'm saying is we walk around like? Oh, you know this. American things are corrupt here, but we take for granted there's things that go on inside the government that are absolutely corrupt, absolutely freakin, corrupt and the more that stuff grows and all

the more exposure it gets because of social media and because the way people can share information and the way you can Google information. It's just a different world and I think that The amount of information available is gonna start to become a light on a lot the corruption that in the U S, government in the in now and it's gonna get even more so in the future. Yes, it's when you get exposed for being like up whatever some corrupt person, like it up in a position of power there, it seems like there's an element of shame. They goes along with it when you get caught the lending, an eminent expert in Afghanistan no, but it seems like it's just so accept more accepted in certain places. You know Yeah well like look at what has happened with the Como guy from CNN. Why did they get that? Well, because he attacks gone back and forth that wouldn't happened

twenty years ago, maybe twenty, where we taxing twenty years ago, not to hunt the first time I ever texted. Was we were Vegas with task in a brutal, and life and Seth were texting and they started texting me. We do just call me or whatever cause you're down. You don't know, what's happening a budget, you come here like will send you text we get to wherever, unlike whose call me why you gonna text me and then turn off, I'm sitting in some bar somewhere and its super loud and give tax. in just responding the other man, the team that what he called t9 word. You know the one: that's not not like a phone. It's like I got to keep before I got it. I got to stay at a blackberry Hell you when I was the animals aid. I got issued a blackbird here, though, and I had the blackberry and once you have a bog bury it was hot.

to do anything else, because they were frequent super squared away, little rig even more for I got the first Iphone. The very first Iphone came out. Stoner went and got in line and got up both iphones Three days later, you like a three day return policy. I took it back out of God, my God, my blackberry back the blackberry was squared away. Little rig and then now it gets crushed. Now, it's crushed by a Well, it's crushed by the Iphone pressure and everything because they are mainly they thought they had lock. They were arrogant be Blackberry was arrogant, isn't it funny alike, even when you say texted like TAT, sting is so new that we, the language, didn't even catch up. We just assume that okay and text is now a verb. So now we got to accommodate you know so, because before then text is a noun, nothin. On Anna verb so now you need past and present tense future into all these

additional reviewing the gradual Yahoo, they understand English. De the related skins deaths a year like oh yeah, he texted me it's like is text, did a word. Well, I guess it is now. What's the past tense for Texan text, this text, he text me texted ass. He had, as I just said, tee and then idea texted next it, but That's like requested. The kind of texting sounds we're text. It doesn't sound quite right out weird word to say, so we have to be careful that I would be very careful this corruption out there? both crises in the world, like I said, try make you world squared away again. How do we do if they capable tell you that stick capable stay healthy about that. You should just go with the first thing. top your head, that you ve utilised say like hey

I was tired the other day and I went and tried to new freaking pre work out. It was savage and I ended up jacking big steel yeah. Well, I will but not that story, because when I try and when I took some pretty I tried it on chemical. When I took some pre work out, air wasn't tired. Did it for the rest of my work on our preliminary. Ok for the mind body connection agreement, while working out encouraging, let me know full on and its kind it and is different. you'll, the difference like when you don't take it cause. I don't take it on time this year, so that we might Recently, though, was day before yesterday. Is there a moment where you say oh feelin, this certain mode right now, gonna do been too I'm gonna gonna get that little extra head right now is and what is it? What is the feeling would have been the feeling that compels that bs, it's pretty random. It's not what I'm tired time because they don't have enough caffeine for me to be lukewarm. Turning to take this

for they hired this through scoops. That's whatever almost two hundred milligrams caffeine, Kemal Brody Crackhead, I'm not ready for that. Greece do J, p at I've o clock. In the morning he dry scooped the new pre work out near chased. It with sour apple sniper dry, scooped another one is due to begin that's little billion beyond my wedding, a migrant cessation capabilities either way. Yes, please work out. I did that outside them. Of the more significant experience is with the energy drinks. That's the one! That's only get you and very very often like a drink, I'm a lot how often you drink out they pretty much every day, guarantees will honour would ever mangled by four hundred percent.

for. You have anything else on standby, The rest of them will grant assiduous and really drink is much care but either way is what you do. Midday Mukoki S or I wake up and we'll eat breakfast anymore me. Neither yet so before lunch one of those get nuts good one by one of those you mean that one of these energy drinks, discipline girl, yes, energy, drink, healthy hundred are actually reached out to honor me utilizing the term energy drink here. Did you send a seasoned assess not until you liked it booger props to him as he away. So we are during that are healthy. No sugar, Sweden, with money through good for you healthier better off after you drink them legitimately. Good free! You pay. No back in health price. With these energy drinks. Oh yes, one days good, there's another front and investment you can make into life into your world is get joint war

get super krill. So that way you can pro actively fight you may him that's your causing to your own. It is true, you know, like you, take things for granted jointure, that in As far as back to my experience, I have been taking my joints for granted. Luckily, I haven't like any kind of terrible learning experience to remind me of that. I just every once in a while. It's I get hit with it like for how old am, I feel like many joint problems. You got any note you gonna do to you. Gotta continue to do. You got continue. Do the work and you got it, you don't surrender any positions, not surrender. Any positions like your work, oppositions like four me overhead, squat over it's gone, my arm real bad murmur Wendy list, and I could not lock out my could not doing overhead squat couldn't do it zero, and then find it started healing and it took months and months and months by the time

it was healed. My body had kind of forgot how to doing overheads crop and so the first time I try to do in overhead squatting in my body forgot how to do it. I felt terrible and I couldn't use any weight. barely any way asks the bar in part of that little you go in the back of my mind, the little play something. The back of my mind was like you know what overhead squats, not that big of a deal you should. You know you don't know what I need to do. you know, and then I said to myself now: if you surrender that movement, you don't do that Movement Une it's gonna go away for ever so very cargoes of that. That's why another thing like going deep on squats the Middle Well, you know. I don't need to know that you want me to go heavy, so medical, less deep known. Actually, don't do that occasionally, ok I get it were. We women were doing muscle,

confusion right. What you still don't you gotta keep those keep those movements alive. My keyboard live another man. That's what reminded me of that deep squats so like case The Scots, if you would take some people, do have what the ankle labour Mobility Miller for that. But if you I thank all mobility and then you don't doom programme and trade doom you're feeling all wait. I gotta get me like mobility kind, back, you know, have a new thing when you say you lose it forever, it's in it's not like. You stopped in it, and then it's gone gone. You eat it stop doing that when you start doing it, it's like you get it back, but not all of it. like a little tax. As you can lose, I note the longer we wait on much longer might take it back the bigger the tax the same with Muslims. My car, my arm, couldn't do Muslims. Couldn't do you know By the time I started doing Muslims again, I do one buggy was in. It was not

yeah had southerners, ok, weltered aiming to do three in my whole work up to do three muscle ups, you don't owe me do gatherings. Yeah ring ocelot, so it's one of those things. As you know, this is this is a little a little What do you put your brain to think when you have the moment when you're saying you know, I'm not gonna. Do this particular exercise today. Just remember yours, rendering that movement and I'm tellin you please dont. Do it centering very don't surrender don't take it for granted either. Take the joint worth fair. Take the crude oil that'll help physically keep your joints in the game. Man's got on top you keeping it in the monk mark. You need let's face it will need to rebuild. If you do not Squatting need to rebuild is so even in its marks, an extra additional protein- it just so happens, tastes like

banana cream pie, if really referring to it as the new and the banana cream bomber. Who thought of that name, you maybe PETE it's good to the design is good as ours on origin. Usa. Website and they get whoever design that website- PETE, I'm just assuming Pierre, but will be definite designer the banana bomber think the early super near the internets gaze, good man who executed as I already regulates. Maybe a black about life, He says we are making in this review this, unlike bra, right banana salary, go yeah, you You bring it back down like when Iraq volleys, let's face it due to pee, was running like had full cream shave, Adele freaking beneath the market common like a giant banana shaped

I like you get to creative, but then he had then you're like that economy, whatever bringing back down to where it needs for Alexander Impervious all perfectly my opinion, so origin, USA or on Gaza, made stuff away what about what for the drinking at the drinks are while by the way, you can also get everything at the vitamin shop so check those then you're, sank. Origin USA is emerging new digital you're, Talkin about gene Jean Louis of everything at origin is made in America straight Even the materials are made in America. It's an american economic thing, what he called at its laxative recorded right now. They know everything that nowhere attaining herself. We don't know what I have to speak, because it is a full on american,

you're right. It's not american they're gonna, so ok saw lean back certain elements of the size of the industry to the point where it's almost it's kind of. in back an initiative to bring back all elements of the industry. Here, that's what we're doing. We can all in one street gang ease, which you should definitely get some geese which, by the way, the geese or not uses in your this. Isn't your father's? This isn't your mother's gives the new deal. Those guys are so Pretty nice get yourself one of those guys also just kind of fly, we're making some stuff for hunting were making a hunting. It's not just some stuff for making a hunting. I like a bunch of yes. When you roll out in hunting season, you can do it wearing American made gear. Bookkeeper posted on that

without smile. He said the boots genes. This was a coup accessories on there. And I will say tat you make it sound like tat, but like look at the bell, you will be like excess or you'll, be like that. I'm getting that belt her! I'm getting that while it well minimalist wallet, though, if you're not into minimalist wallets- and you know- maybe there's any bad about him- Maximus wallet to not max if there's a max more one, more robust, robust, you can't come in, and I just wanna know less allotted good stuff on their army in America and in quality, stuff so slight from top to bottom. It's kind of a go to when you think about it. The origin, USA come also Jack Jack off your back home. I didn't I am sure that if you want that the supplement The house will the common good, We have made the house door as well. The three can get this one. Whose freedom stuff shirts apparel

tat S? Hoodies are back in winter, it's kind of a colder here and then there's the shore locker, which briefly script ensure locker. Would he got? It? Is a creative logistic? gave me on basic level. It's a new shirt every month, the designs, a little bit different little bit more, they're more layers to the designs of the Father. I guess beverage go park ass. There was a whole thing about late layers. Yes very still hold there is, I think, LA layers. It's almost like this is the underground. It's part of it. The strikers so there's layers in the T shirts, Europe there is more to it in just a straightforward design. If you listen, you know, if you less, if you listen, you know if you're in the game, you know. What's up exactly, do not you like If you do. Yes,

That's one thing, but the layers reads: whereas layers you haven't, they gain. We look at the delay and I commend that's cool and I get work who, when every month cool, but if you listening, you know you know the other layers in its and I get the cool design on the front end. But then you the naming the dish chance. All good check that out Sancho Store, dotcom haste, the part? Just else? subscribed Giacomo unravelling roll out some Christmas cheer with my point. He see dark unlock the lovely subjects ground about gas. Get warrior kid. Podcast also can do. under grasping of underground going around our come. We are a little something that we had to set up just in case ethical forces. Take over, we gotta go to go, we got a place to go to call Jack Wunderground Rock on the ground. Calm. If you want to help us in there going to help us be ready for any contingency that might unfold, you can subscribe, eight dollars and eighteen cents a month. We got an additional little punk ass down there. We answer your questions and

not if you can't afford it school, we still watching the game, go to assistance at underground, Jacko interrupt darker assistance at juggling to grab decamp there you go through. Also, we have to tell the video version of this progress some excerpts honour and some also some additional. Is it where you going to check it out to see what it is by you every once, awhile we'll put some additional stuff on there that that turns out to be interesting to see what Jocko live without gothic, and sometimes there you go psychological warfare, mp3, try to keep you on the path we got. Flip side, canvas, dot, com, Dakota, selling stuff to hang on your wall. We got works cry for the living mentioned in today's hauling. The case first book we covered on podcast number two, seventy one. You can get that from joy go publishing, dot com, job

go publishing, dot com does actually a book that I published why, because it's a freaking epic story from somebody that spend time on a battlefield when, ISIS was being fought and pushed back and she interviewed people from this, which is crazy. So if you check that out. You can go to Jacko publishing dot com. Also final spent two story to novel poem: it's a menu. it's a african wild emotional ride dont. Really when you're in front of people cause, you might be crying dont! Really, when you gotta be quiet, as you might be laughing final spin IRA leaders, frustration, tactics, feel manual. The code, devaluations protocols, Disrelish Freedom, field manual, where you get one two three, and for that the Christmas gift

That's the Christmas gift! You wonder who work this little kid Gutenberg gets the gift, get him to get em all box, all books, one way of the warrior kid one too free and for there is no better gift. You can get for a kid than those books. Fear little kids get making. And little making the dragons let em learned overcome fear about Facebook David Hackworth. I wrote the forward on the new version and then extreme ownership and the I of leadership, I wrote with my brother laid bad and speaking of life. We have a you're sure consultancy. Few needed help inside your organization from a leadership perspective which, if you have any issues inside your organization, Whatever problems, you have their leadership problems, leadership is the solution crash on com. For that kind of one of our line of live events, you can check it out. There. We also have

online training academy cream ownership, dot com, it's a online leadership, training academy. You can, Your team in there you can get everyone aligned. You can get your whole com engaged in that or you he's doing yourself, but dont become a good leader overnight and you know you're, not just born a good leader, just like you're, not born a good guitar player you're, not on care who you are you gotta pick up in practice and learn. That's the academy for pickup practice. Learn for leaders go to extreme ownership. Dotcom. Your asked me a question on there. Literally just sit there and talk to me. three times a week, two or three times a week on their answer. Questions life so check that out three march of dot com. If you want to help service members active and retired their families, gold, star families check out Mark These more mamma, we should gotTA incredible

charity organisation. If you wanna donate to that, we want to get involved. She is helping Sir many veterans go to America, Eddie warriors DOT Org and if you want any more of my looming lectures or you need more of echo's random retorts, you can find us on the webs on Twitter on crime on Facebook. Echoes uncle Charles homage awkward Holly is on Instagram on Twitter, she's, Holly S,

Mackay, also Holly Mackay Darksome that we can find her sub stack as well, where people's a new method of pudding information out there, the substantia lot of journalists are using it it's kind of like a patriotic but its not being controlled and their allowing free speech, which apparently patriotic was not substitute, sub stack, Finally, based Ali, you can hear what she does. The rest you take, to inform and educate the world. So thank you Holly for doing that. People, people who do not know history, are doomed to repeat it someone has to uncover history. I liked what she said about history, history, rough draft, a rough draft of history,

so someone's gotta go out grab that information speak like Holly. They go and do that. Thank you, Holly for your hard work and bravery to make that happen and if people in uniform out there thank you for doing your best to confront and stop. Evil in the world and keep us all safe, and that includes our police and law enforcement. Firefighters, paramedics, empties, dispatchers, correctional officer of border patrols, secret service and oh first responders you for keeping us safe right here at home, and every other. There is evil in the world and there is good And we have to be on guard and we have to be vigilant, vigilant against evil joint against corruption. These thoughts and ideas can creep from person to person

mine to mind like a disease, so stay vigilant, stay prepared EL the truth, look out for each other and and try and keep your part of the world trade make your part of the world as good as you can and help other people do the same, and until next time, Zayigo and Jacko out.