This is jocko. Podcast number three hundred and twenty nine with ECHO Charles and me Jocko Willink good evening, echo good evening, at eight hundred the bull ten, Colonel Sidney walked on stage got dead silent. When the bull began to talk bull was a man of few words. The briefing theater was ashore. Walk from our barracks, side and had simple rows of wood seeding like to buy. And boards on short metal. Poles, no seat backs It would seem round a hundred. Was an elevated stage with a screen we'd watch the movie there. Just a couple his prior reveals a large map. and says quote, you're going to rescue seventy american prisoners of war, maybe more from a camp.

Hold called day the is twenty three miles west of honey. This is something american prisoners of war have a right to expect from their spell of soldiers. We are all part of the same military family we want these men to know that they are now abandoned by their military family. No man should feel that way that's why we are going in there after them. you are to let nothing, nothing either here with the operation arm. is to rescue prisoners not to take prisoners If there's been a leak, we'll know it by the time, the second or third chopper sets down if a walking into a trap, if it turns out that they know we're coming don't even dream about walking out of North Vietnam, got wings on your feet. will be one hundred miles from Laos.

The wrong part of the world for a retrograde maneuver. If it happens, I want to keep this forced together, back up to the song Kong River. If we have You and by God their welcome to come across that damn open ground will make. Pay for every foot across that son of a bitch. For for second, you could have heard a pin drop then like a cannon shot. Everyone, bursts, burst out shouting whooping hollering slapping each other on the back rearing like broncos yelling. Let's go get em, but tries to bring us back to earth by explaining in no uncertain terms that he estimates. Each man has a fifty fifty chance of returning alive from this mission. Bates at this is strictly a volunteer mission.

if any man has a reason that he should not go on this mission, he should decide now. Not a single man, backed out the whole meeting, quoting Lieutenant Colonel sinners portion last no longer than ten minutes. and that right there is an excerpt from a book called who will go into this Conte P, O w camp written by Terry Buckler. About one of the most famous so collaboration operations, missions of all time, the attempt pew W Rescue on the Santi prison camp in Vietnam, and the author, Terry Buckler, Special forces soldier green Beret. was on that raid. It was actually the youngest man on that mission.

we have the honor of having him here with us tonight to share some of his lessons learned from this incredible mission and from his life. Terry, thank you for joining us, my pleasure it's an honor to have year. This is something that I've heard about for many many years. Eddie you anyone! That's an especial operations. Community knows about this raid Impact that it had not just on, pure abuse, but also in the history and the you'd evolution of special operations as a whole, so it, sir, pretty pretty humbling to be sitting here. Talking to you, that you were actually all now read you and upcoming on this podcast, your daughter, my daughter, like my agent and told me about you, and I started looking up some of your podcast, that you two done: the law

And then started looking at your file in my goodness you're better than drunk, as though about all that is the word. You got the ball rolling for well, definitely glad she she reached out and the just Incredible story I did all some time written reading this book and we'll go over some of this book today, I'll start off by saying, obviously I can't read the whole book get the book off. If you want to hear the entire story, but I want it's wave tops of it. Because it's just an incredible story and Well, you really like to start off in the beginning kind of way you came from and to use those topics, I'll I'll, go to the book. So it says you're. I was born in a two bedroom house on a small seventy two acre farm in Central Missouri in nineteen. Fifty we were, six miles from Clark, six from Rennick and six from he'd be or male came through Clark, I would

Rennick and our phone came through Higbee Clark. we, the bird birthplace of famous World war, two General Omar Bradley. Our house had been built in eighteen. Seventy we didn't indoor plumbing until nineteen sixty two when I twelve. So that's a That's a different that people grow up now are just a little bit. What what tell me a little bit more about you know growing up in that in those conditions. Well, you know we were by ourselves. Our neighbors were in the same boat that we were pretty much. We had one neighbor down the road that actually had indoor plumbing and it's always kind of nice or they had three kids and one of them same age as me. We grew up together and you know some nights. We, that each other's house and was always nice to go to his house, was you can get a bath

in hot water. So what you guys did you boil water to go and take a bath at your house? Sometimes sometimes we boil water other times we set the tub out in the sun in the summer. Then we'll bring any allows them The stories when I was growing up, my parents had gone to town and I was taking a bath and we had a stove in the stoves we had back in those days didn't have the metal threatening was just. There is no the heat and there was a fire and I lost my balance and my butt back into the that against the stove and neighbours say I had a nice little burn out of it. Couldn't go to school. for about a week because couldn't wearing clothes and it was embarrassing and go to school when people as why. Why were you out just hurt my butt?

Bernie ends. I guess You say in here dad was a hard working man, but he also enjoyed having fun when he returned from the war. Nineteen. Forty six, you worked as a coal mine are alongside his dad and rock springs. Why only after you with engine injured in a mine cave in, he decided he would not interested in minors career and move back to Missouri Where he'd been raised in forty seven, he purchased the seventy two egg acres. I came to know as our farm he attend. classes on agriculture at the tech. College under the g I bill and yet you say this. Let me pause to tell you about my father's service in the army. World WAR Ii was when he served. He never talked about the war until one Saturday in July, one thousand, nine hundred and ninety seven after you had his stroke and covering in the University of Missouri Hospital that started talking about what he did in the army from basic training until he was released from active duty that spent thirty six months in the South Pacific,

talk about what it was like to get shot at and how it felt to shoot another person That was a very laid back person. It was hard to imagine him shooting someone we can the food, the army fed us and the types of weapons we had. We both carry the cold? Forty five are long. Rifles were very different. We talked about fear walling combat now, You say your dad didn't really talk about that until nineteen. Ninety seven so did you did you hear? Did you know he was in world war? Two growing up I knew he had been a moral or two, but we never talked about him when I volunteered for the draft and when I came home and told my parents, when I done you know my mom or she broke into tears and dad known to the situation.

I remember when he took me to the bus station to go to Kansas City for the induction or take my physical and that's. That was really the first time we talked to what it was like him more and he told me he don't dollars. everything I really listen to me: his last words. Yes, so when I turn fifteen are spent most my summers, working for a neighbor who'd farmed about five hundred acres. My brothers had worked for him until they graduated than I took their place, your class. President yeah, you We had a really small school grown up. Nineteen, your graduating class- yes, you are as president. Yes, you, play played the only sport you had was basketball, correct, which you were not medically engineered replay, I wasn't the tallest guy on the team by any stretch of the imagination, but he played. Did you play varsity?

Well, we didn't have anything but varsity or you were just player. We had one team you played on and you didn't player, so it really only got nineteen in your class. She can't be real. Picking up, you say after graduating, from high school, I moved to Columbia to work this summer for my uncle Rodney, who owned a tree service since one thousand nine hundred and fifty in the fall of nineteen. Sixty eight and move to Louisville Kentucky to attend trade school for electronics. I had a job working construction, the mornings and went to school in the afternoon. I did this deal January, one thousand nine hundred and sixty nine. When I ran out of money. Through the end of February, one thousand nine hundred and sixty nine with a couple of my high school buddies, and I were riding around the big town of Moberly in decided to stop that the draft stopping at the draft board to see where we were on the draft list. Weed Albany go school and back, then, when you lost your draft deferment from college, it seem like you jumped up on the draft list waiting at the door.

Four told me that it would probably be April before I'd be drafted. I asked her when the next group scheduled ago and she told us it would be March. I asked add me to the list, so that was it. I just here, for the: U S: Army, correct This is nineteen. Sixty nine in Vietnam is war is clearly going on and you seeing this in the news every day you know I've had quite a few people on the podcast that when they were joining the military it was One thousand nine hundred and sixty five hundred and sixty six date. The Vietnam wasn't a guarantee like it must have been for you. You must know. A hundred percent you were going to. Vietnam was exactly right. I mean in those days they needed troops and you know, I caused me another year, my I volunteered for a two year, but to get into special forces I had extend another year for training. So I became a three year commit.

Were there like hippies, where you were in Moberly or was there? Was there not? in Moberly, but at Fort Bragg, where I ended up after If he can ai team Jump school. yeah, we had our in founders those people that like to protest but it was. It seem like for you and your group of friends just patriotic as what's going on exactly, As a rural area, I mean you know, hippies were kind of thought of as weirdos still are in my mind, and it's just the way it goes summer love, I guess, was a little bit different for you and MOE little bit. You say on March 17th, one thousand nine hundred and sixty nine the day to report to the Moberly Draft office. My mom got me up early and dad bench

dad and me a big breakfast before she went to work there in the kitchen. My mom gave me a big hug and we kissed she told me she loved me. She told me to be safe. That was, if day for mom as she walked out of the kitchen door to go to work. I could she see She was crying. Data had taken the morning off to drive me to mobilise. So I catch the Missouri Transit Bus to Kansas City from my physical and my swearing in it was, eight sunny morning driving to Moberly Dad had a nice, talk to me about what to expect Army basic training He advised me to take it all with a grain of salt. Dad had served in the Pacific theater during World WAR two and had seen his share of combat in the Philippines standing at the bus. Stop we hugged, and he gave me some more good advice, keep your nose clean your head down and don't volunteer for anything dad. Why back his tears as he walked back to his car,

Scott a little bit of a different meaning when the wars going on in Vietnam. And your dad. It actually fought himself in Southeast Asia, He knows exactly what you're getting into exactly. And he gave you some good advice which were I find out. You did not listen to your right boot camp. Here we were issued our new green uniforms and all the good stuff that comes with it, underwear, socks, boots and blankets. Our new friends, the drill, sergeants marched us, or at least we called it marching over to get our first army hair cut. It took about one minute, but it was free and you They say you get what you pay for I'd only been in the army a few days when our company was brought into one our training buildings. There was this big boy, Looking Rambo guy who is looking for volunteers for the green berries, I didn't know a lot about the green berets, but I did know they were.

One of the most elite fighting units in the army. This guy looked as though he could have kicked any ten of us at once. I thought. If I'm going to war, I want to go the best, so I raised my hand when he asked if anyone wanted to volunteer for the Green Berets special forces. I knew this would cost me another year of service, but I figured another year worth the price to pay to be among the army's best. it was a poor listener when it came to my dad's advice about volunteering What did you know about special forces? not a whole lot other than the Green Bray. You know the song Sattler yeah had then out, and you know I knew that the special forces was I shall, but I really had a knew one at that time. That was in special forces, but I then a little reading on them. When I was thinking about joining the military before I actually volunteer, but I was felt like of us.

Then go online, go with the best. How many guys from your boot camp company do you think volunteered me too. It was kind a you know. I thought well, that's why special? Maybe What percentage of your boot camp company was draftees? Would you say? Oh probably, ninety percent? wow are we headed. Most of us are all draftees. We had a few guys that were in a reserve for National Guard, but the rest of us are just draftees and and no we were there because Uncle SAM needed there and so we took on the role of a soldier. What was the what was the, Can a shock value of book camp for you have grown up on a farm? You been working hard, your whole life men were you, you you get in

He might have an easy for you. I had it, but one of my guys will work on a dairy farm up in Minnesota and for him being in the military was eating. Vacation. I agree, Wasn't I remember that we had. When my DEA, who was a veteran of Vietnam, found out that I was going to jump school and there was another Palmer, seventeen year Old Palmer and that guy got me in more trouble. He was going to jump school and so any time he messed up. I had to pay for it, so I started messing up, so he had to pay for it and we had to run and battle and drill sergeant Adam has our drill sergeant and he just I remember, renewing a pupil sticks and he call our number and go out and then We'd call somebody else's number and come in, but he wouldn't leave us. He left us out there. You know

when I got tired. He call for powers number and got well point where the guys felt sorry for person, and Course Dunham. and you guys either just start smacking him or we will start smacking. You and said you know They didn't have a really good choice. Little helmets, we were worth at peace Park and nothing I remember coming out of the Van my head was ringing crazy, you that was was and, I was Palmer going to airborne school. to go to the 82nd all off. Now he didn't want to go to special forces and that he went to go to the 82nd airborne and but that he was He was a stocky young Kian and nineteen years old, smart knew everything he were all blessed with that at age. Seventy you keep your mouth shut.

How long was boot camp? Do you remember any weeks. did you get any infantry or is it just very basic? what kind of doctrination military, pretty pretty basic. You know and then my a I t I was a combat engineer on a my. I t which is at Fort Lebanon or Linwood as well, so I spent basic and Leonard Cohen, and I spent my I t that, so that's just the advanced, extended period of time you there now. How did you end up Getting an M of combat engineer did that get assigned to you. That was case you didn't make it through special forces training, exactly You went through your basic. Whatever the army, you know, whatever your military occupation is going to be and

once you got into special forces, then you decided, you had a choice of you, know medic, and you know we had the best medics and and weapons communications and an intelligence, and all that was Nura Cross trained on all that same thing. They have now say the same sort of him now right, Hum Turkey First airplane ride after I you say experienced my first airplane ride. It took me from Fort Leonard Wood, Leonard Wood to Fort Benning. Georgia school. As much as I expected a lot of running and pushups, and when you screwed up and morning inspections I went through, jump school in August. fast forward a little bit here. You said I had the good fortune of going through jump school with some Navy seals from team to, if I recall correctly When they learned that I was headed for special forces train, they decided they would adopt me into their ranks the

or troughs we were, we had were about a foot deepen eighteen inches wide. The seals stopped up, one the troughs and filled it with water, then about six of them grabbed me Don T in the water. Until I thought I was going to drown from then on, they deemed me an honorary seal. I guess you might say I had my first taste of waterborne boarding there. actually great bunch of guys. One day we we're headed back to the barracks. After day training one of the seals was made to run around the platoon, while we the airborne shuffle. Well, the seals have a very high degree of esprit de corps. If one of them was dropped for pushups, they all did push up. So once you had to run around opportune, they all would think about, at the seals were running circles around us, as we soldiers did the airborne shuffle, not us This pissed off the cadre is an understatement. The next thing I knew we were running what felt like a sprint. As the seals ran around the pollutants by

time. We made it back in the barracks. We were all exhausted. The cadre then had the seals doing pushups for the next ten or fifteen minutes. I D ve developed a real appreciation for the level of calm robbery. The seals have I went to airborne school. They don't seals, don't go to airborne school anymore in Fort Benning. Ga they they go through. The Navy has their own little program now. But so I I was I dunno when they stopped it. It was quite a few years after me, but it was definitely that situation would we'd go down there. You know we were like you said earlier, we were so we were young, so we thought we knew everything, but we were definitely in good shape, achieved good were just coming out of seal training and airborne school especially this is like one thousand nine hundred and ninety. Nineteen. Ninety one I think, Europe must also time there's all kinds of people from the army. don't you want to end the air force? It wasn't. It? Wasn't that wasn't high standards of physical training, not very high, so we

become out of basic seal training where we're like animals we're just having fun. They can't do anything to hurt us, but had some really good memories of the black cats. They were awesome, they were, they were very whoa yeah it's it's too bad. They don't join us up for that. For the evening Tell CALL Talia can be about it the other day and and that that's where that's where I really learned about the hurry up and wait like never before I mean you get You know we meet at two o clock in the morning to stop getting your parachute on at

we're a clock in the morning you're getting your first inspection at six o clock in the morning or taken Abbas out to the plain at eight o clock in the morning you're getting on the plain at ten o clock in the morning the plane takes off and it noon you jump at the donors we're dead hours. This is a thirty second evolution, hadn t good dies, You finish, Arabic in school and you all into September, one thousand nine hundred and sixty nine special forces training. You say one certain night in September, one thousand nine hundred and sixty nine seventy four top notch soldiers out of one hundred screen out of hundreds screen jumped the dz at Camp Mccall near Fort Bragg, with all our equipment and one change of fatigues. That's all we would have for the next few weeks. We are about four miles from what would be or what come on base camp, it was about, p M and the Welcome Committee was ready for us now. You could tell these guys really look forward to our arrival, the cadre,

quickly assembled and started marching us to camp up on this dirt road with our rucksacks and our weapons? So this is your start of special forces you're going you're jumping into school right, correct him, a call. And you just have what you have on you: an extra change of camis and your gear. what regular gear dump What kind of brief did you get before this Did you get a brief, but I don't recall any breathing you all and we all knew hats. That's where the washout started, you know and don't so once you start once you start this, this section of special forces, training and peoples are washing out. Do they quitting or they failing? What's going on, combination some guys. You just an idea that first night we lost- probably fifteen guys just one for them. I mean they couldn't take her

the harassment and the guided not mean those eerie out there were they knew how to get under your skin and a a very short time, I remember some guys get so mad. You know that take a swing at, and it was like or you don't want to do that Rome wrong wrong. Next thing. You know you're that person in around anymore and but that's it's the way one way of weeding them out. You know and getting people there that really wanted to be in special forces and knew that there was going to be some ups and downs to the training part of it.

And and then all through that I think we were rather like eight weeks, and you know you learned, you know all the basics of you know patrolling things like that. They went into a little more advanced. You know how to set up ambushes, and then you know a different ah types of medical deals and going on a raid? You know why are a mission and the annual ensure minimum reports and things like as a It was a kind of an overall view of everything at you would need a team, and you know you at this point: we were medics. We were weapons. We were just green, green, brazen that the hero urges hoping to get through the next level to where they could then select the M o s. We wanted and go that's when the training really started for special forces. This was

we're going to weed yeah we're going to make sure that this is what you want, because if you don't, I can't handle this you're not going to handle anything else than we don't want. You I forgot to mention that when you are in boot camp you scored a perfect five hundred on the on the physical fitness tests. Are you were a just a good athlete for sure I was in good shape back then and a fast runner. You mention that, specifically, you are a fast runner and then you know it are you doing a lot of patrolling like long long marches during special forces? I think, it's different. Now going to say it. They were, they were a long marches, but you know you'd go out and camp out overnight. You know and kind of make do with what you had. You know everybody had their a little tense, but you know a lot of times. We didn't even use it. We just unroll us Baggins sleep out under the stars, so to speak, and that was part of it as well

Well, how much were you eating What you had better then we had the o c rations, you know so they would bring in the meals, and I mean we may those were our meals for all three meals. We had pancakes No Hammond. Mothers was a favorite them in. beans and weenies. They bring it out in a big. You know fifty gallon or twenty five gallon for the water and they put the heaters in them. So they teach food and then add your p. Thirty eight open a can and and that's, and he may hear guys trying to barter with him. You know sir ham and motherfuckers were the first. Nobody

pancake pancakes were rotten to, but you was we'll see. Ration era lurks came out force as hell yet it's always buy I went through basic seal training and there you get to eat and you get to eat actually a lot most of the time. You're get three meals a day and usually one or two of them are in a child all where it's, basically, all you can eat and I feel the rangers that get one Emory Day for whatever that is. You know eighty five days and You'll, be those guys always lose twenty year. Fifteen twenty twenty five pounds I gained. I gained eleven lb going through seal training. I went from one hundred and seventy four to one hundred and eighty five that's working out. However long and working out, you know doing a ton of physical activity, but I was just eating a ton and you could get like get done at night.

I would be ordering pizza at at at ten or two or eleven at night. I'd order pizza, Domino's. What would deliver we would eat pizza just about well. The weed he's a lot of so so we're getting a lot of calories, but I always found that the the army- a little bit more stringent about whether you to let you read their special forces schools. I remember the first time I hated air force Oh, my god, next level, oh yeah, I mean I remember this asked: are you what I'm thinking normally a scramble told her like mags is okay and I'm going this year. The air force definitely puts a priority on oil on comfort they own comfort. They leave a voice heard that the air force, when they design a base.

the first thing they build is the barracks. Then they build the recreation. Then they build the gymnasium. Then they g build the pool, then they build the golf course and now, or just about any out of money and they say to the government. Well, we still need to know. We still need an airstrip or you know some hangers. He may go well, we don't have any choice but to build it. So that's where I've always heard. I don't know if that's true or a smart idea really was there anything that was really hard for you going through that initial special forces selection? No, I You know I got a breeze through it. I remember the first time I was over exhausted, where I couldn't do push. Ups was the night we landed and we can my brother guy long. I kept up with her cadre all the way into to camp and then when we got their course, they ask you questions. Are you tired renew

the trick question we said no, and he said gotten do push ups and right and literally I could not do another pushy. I mean I thought I don't know this. Is it they're going to flush me, but You know when the other guys all got any are they should get up then getting back in fall in front of the house. we got a blessing there now? You say this in the book, How is try to add humor to anything that I do? one? Early morning the company was information waiting for the cadre to join us. On that day, I was the student company commander. While we are waiting, I shouted out a command that anyone who that can't tempt out tap tap dance must be a well The entire company started tap dancing in place. All of a sudden they all stopped. I had my back to the cavalry building and it was at that time that I realized. I was the only one, still tap dance it I stopped, and so we turned around and stood there and there stood the cadre

They did have a sense of humor. I got a chuckle out of it, but they told me to drop and start doing push ups, and here you have one of your first life lessons in this book, life lesson. One add humor. It really helps when things are getting tough. Sometimes it's not easy to find it within you, but even the p o w somehow found a way to pass some slivers of humor through the cracks in the prison walls. The soul needs it make sure contribute some. the benefit of the people around you know I mean it's thing that we're sitting here laughing about the stories anyway, because you got to have fun doing this stuff, even when it's miserable exactly you get done with selection, and you said I was sent to my special forces M S in special forces. There were five m, less options, weapons, engineer, communication Intel and Medical and you ended up with the communications, mos

because you are right there I thought you did. I did communicate kings on the range Am, I am aware, was twelve. Bravo as an engineer. Okay, weapon or demolitions so, they kept you and you are an engineer. Anyways you'd been through to your right, that was as an engineer, so they put you as an engineer hookah. Who did something right would you learn about so so talk a little bit about engineers? What are you doing in that specialty We learned how to burn build bridges cross rivers and things like that, and then in course, for that was demolition to know how to use debt core and how to build your own bombs for dill, soap, dishes and dust initiators things like that that we were used, and then you know how to how to basically use a dead cord to knock down trees and stuff and

it was a homeroom class. After my we lost about eight or nine guys in an accident. I don't know demo range, happened. We had a young, the guy that was due in connecting we did. I would call it ray I mean, and in the ring main the last one that connects is then connected to the hut wire on the battery and we were using the electric blasting caps and they forgot to disconnect the other side and we lost about eight or nine guys on one. At the end of the day him they were all kneeling over there working on it yeah it was a. It was a real shame, but you know somebody forgot awesome, good man, man yep, that's awful,

yeah, those suck you got to pay attention when you work with demolition, hauling have two hundred and eleven little air like that, can put it into your career. That's for sure. And I bet the guy that was actually near the blasting machine. He wasn't by a charter, right. Arms are very lives. He lived And had to live with that the rest of his life Fast forward a little bit You say hero after I completed special forces, MOS training in March, one thousand nine hundred and seventy we were all then assigned to a group at this time. Group was responsible for Vietnam and, as warriors, everyone wanted to be assigned to fifth group, including myself. However, for two groups at Fort Bragg, sixth group and seventh group I was assigned to seventh group like any good.

Soldier you do is you're told and make the best of it. I was proud it'd be a green beret that summer, want me to the not in Hala saying and not in NASH, forest, from which I was picked to be part of bull simons. Mysterious mission someone September. Second, one thousand nine hundred and seventy asthma of the advance party we loaded on these sea one. Twenty three is South bound, so Bill Simons This guy's a legend war too. He fought on. new guinea. He was a ranger. He can I'll get a red. That was a that was appear to be rescue. They rescued in the Philippines. Over five hundred peeled abuse, many of whom had participated in the baton, death march. Then he got now for a couple years and then came back in use in special forces? He was in Sog.

I mean he- this guy was a legendary guy and How did that happen that you got picked for this for this mission? How'd you hear about the mission. How did you get picked? Well? I was up at another Haley and I was training. I was working with a bunch of master sergeant and pin he five and I will teach in mountain climbing and rope tightened officers in some of the guys and seventh grew and higher I needed some supplies, so kernels go into town pick up supplies

in which Nanna Haley's about the probably two hundred and fifty three hundred miles from Fort Bragg. So I went back down to brag and a couple of my buddies said to him. When I got down there and they said hey, did you see we're? Both assignments is looking for volunteers and, of course, Bill Simons I mean just I mean that was in enough to excite you, then you didn't want to be there. So, as I said, well, I'm going to go down, see what he's talking about cause. They said of you and he was going to be down at that and we call it a little white house. Therefore I got down there, it was packed. I mean there were probably five hundred plus special forces, guys there and bull came out on stage and he always had a little cigar in his mouth. He never smoked in Adelaide just to none buddy I and I had never seen the guy, so that was kind of my first introduction are girls,

He looks like a leg. Uses his physical appearance. He looks like a Lyft. He is a legend than that. I yeah, there's, no doubt about that, and So when he came on stage now. He said I was looking for some volunteers or am I has it her dismission and how we wondered what he old hazardous compared to what we were he said, there's no tdy. Why so you know that eliminated some guys. You know everybody wants temp. Money, dirty money and if you're interested get back here and we'll start the interview process at one thousand three hundred hours. So I went back. And

the name on the list and the next day I came back to to head to sergeant majors doing a lot of interviewing to command sergeant majors, and we were in a line at the seventh group facility billets, and it was about now probably about five hundred and thirty. I guess man, I'm just nobody's called me, and nobody to call me everybody else pretty much gone and walks these two sorry, mayors and they're walking out the door, and I'm thinking near view me and so I ran after him and hollered at him. I said you know, hey you guys, didn't interview me and say: what's your name and I said Buckler said well and he had a clipboard on he looked anxious. I don't have your two on one file: that's the military and army. That's your file tells you everything about who you're much of

Dining near rue record, and I said they said that. Why won't you be understood? Will you get your two hundred and one file back here. First thing in the morning we'll interview you, okay, so buddy man at that time was one of my roommates butch. I was lived off base and we had seven of us and in the six and seven of us in the seventh group, so we were only time we were together was payday and holidays, and so we can. The neighborhood, I think, was glad to see us move. But you know he's. A deputy sheriff give down the road from us and he was always stopping by and see. If you guys, can you just hold it down just a little bit but anyway. I went in for the interview. You know they asked me if I could weld- and I said I

real on farm and our neighbour SAM welded, everything we ever broke. I looked at tat. I can do that. So I said yeah I'm a welder, and so you felt like you could well because you watch your body felt like it. I like it. I like your attitude, it's good at three. They didn't have a welder, so I wouldn't have to prove myself. Yet Then they want to know if I did scuba and I had met that point nine scuba, so I said nah I don't know scuba and then just asked me some general questions. You know what how much combat have you been and I'm thinking they got my two one file. I have no combat experience, and so I said no, I know then so I said okay well thanks. I thought well, at least they let me interview so you know thank you and I walked out the door got back up to now. Haley then, and couple of days later, a girl from our called me into his office.

it's up at the non Haley there and he says pack your bag, so well, okay. He says that you made Bill Simons List and I said really- and he said yep, so I said okay and and I will you know- I'm very excited not even knowing what we were going to do- just the fact that we made did you have any idea why they selected you to this day, I can figure out is needed. Some. I in Spain of course, aside from your crack welding skills. If there are but meal, I think what they needed was some grunts and special forces. The ne is the lowest

So they I was on the advance party and we went down and set up the compound and we when they swept the building. We put the constantino around and put a feel for now, and then I pulled guard duty on the bed. We had a guard that bill in twenty four by seven and I thought it was a little unusual cause and when we pull guard duty and brag yet he got and sixteen in one round maybe- and this one really had an m16. Around in my orders that something goes south shoot and not. I thought there's some serious on this mission that that they're not telling everybody about, but you know we did what we were told to do and I pulled guard duty when I won pulling our duty as either sleeping or training, because I had to trade with the other guys during when I won pulling our duty

you say this, so you fly down there and we're where's the location fighter fly to and in a glitter force, Eglin AIR Force base. So you say. Now both wasn't the only legendary officer attach the sovereignty raid. Captain Dick Meadows, Woodley, blue boy, assault, group which would land directly inside the p o w camp walls enlisted in nineteen. Forty six, a paratrooper in the korean WAR in the early sixties meadows serve to stick with the british Special AIR Service in Vietnam. Meadows captured video footage proving North Vietnam. Army was infiltrating, selfie, unarmed and impress general with Westmoreland, so much that in nineteen sixty seven he received Battlefield commission directly to captain. He was the commanding officer of Ranger School when Bull Simons recruit him for the San TE raid lieutenant Colonel bit Sidner was select,

by bull Simons to serve as the ground forces commander. Where bull, Simon's role would be the on scene, eyes and ears of the joint contingency task group in constant contact with general manner. Carl sinner had the reputation of a gentleman and a accounts, in a professional one day Brigadier General Blackburn from the Pentagon. Briggs general manner Bull, Simons and Captain Dick meadows it as a group and requested access to the operation center. I checked their id he's called in for someone to come out now. Squirt them in The Cornell comes out the gate. Can you imagine how I felt here? I am a twenty year old buck sergeant, standing in the midst of some of the most notable special operations forces the officers ever. I remember they Treaty as one of them making small talk with me after a lieutenant colonel Sidney took them inside. This is one of the great things about special forces. The officers and enlisted men treat each other with respect. I believe this

because you have to depend on one another when you operate in small teams like special forces, so they were super strict about who's. Coming into this building, he yeah, I mean it was you didn't get into the building? I don't care, how many times you been in that building. When you went back in, I had to check your id and of the guard, was call in and we feel phone set up and call in somebody would carry out and very that they were who they were and let a man s court amended. The building at, were you gotta getting to go into the bilbil? do you even know what you're guarding that we used to laugh about that it's a what you got in there you know, or even better so privately about. You know we kept thinking. Women we that could have because Meta was a wrench as a man so much

yeah. They were very strict. I mean on that. That was the did one anybody in the building and the results are limited about unpeopled I could get in there and I'd say, probably maybe twenty five to thirty two most, that wherever allowed in the building where you're standing this guard duty and you're doing the best of your ability, which leads us to another life lesson you have in your life. Lesson to your life is significant, so be excellent. In everything you do no matter how insignificant you think your job is, it could turn out to be a life changing position. One of the reasons Captain Dan eventually selected me to be paired with him was that during all the time I spent feeling guard duty and training. I never complained, but always did what was asked of me. I credit my add for instilling this attitude in my brothers and me he always told us if you're going to do anything, do you best correct, that's an important one.

Are you go on to say here as the member as a member of the advance party? Another one of our tasks was to build. large mock up of buildings using target and this as the walls with doors with cut out for windows. We begin deconstructing it on Thursday September tenth, and it took us several days to complete. We didn't know why we were having to build it. It wasn't until we did our first walk through during our initial training that I realize how it would be used. Even then, we had no idea. It was a dimensionally, perfect replica of all the buildings in walls of the peeled, You camp in Sante, North Vietnam, as both the full sized. Two by fours, whatever James you by forcing the dirt and then build little buildings there full size, walk through, is look like tat A paper on rapped on a year do before. He reminded me of you know, but tat, and in one of the thing

finally clarified in, and the book was everybody said we used to take it down every night. Well, you know, cuz a week to build and then and then we weren't going to take that down every night because they we retrain. Most of our training was at night so there's no way we could take it down and put it back up, but and one of the air, guys it actually carded it. I said that they confirmed that forcing in the book when we work I'm trying to find out who can we talk to that and the AIR Force Guy said nice, there was even up after you guys left, but they did fly over it and take pictures Does that is that they wanted to confirm that the word or the Russians couldn't see it from satellites are from fly, offers an aircraft or whatever exactly spot, but somebody had started the rumor that it was so so grit that you take it down here on every day. Now that's exactly right,

I fast forward a little bit talk about some of the training. You do you, you were doing on a Wednesday September, ninth about a week after we arrived at the advanced part of the other. Seventy eight or so green berets arrived. We started our training First, thirty days of training were intense. Each day started with p, followed by running the Meadows Mile, Dick Meadows, love to run, and he led many many of our runs now I like to run, but not like captain meadows. If you are not in shape, you soon would be This is one of the reasons I was selected as one of the raiders. I was by no means the biggest man. In fact, with the second shortest the show. raider was also the oldest and ceo master. Urgent, gallon Pappy Kyrgyzstan Pappy was no stranger to combat I? I had several things in common. We were both short and stocky built. We both. Turn up on a farm in the Midwest in world war. Two He was the youngest man in the raid on

p, o w camp in the Philippines. I was the youngest man on this raid five years- Junior to papi- That's pretty awesome! So he's these. What forty five then cuz, you're twenty x, forty five years old, When you're working with all these legends with all this combat experience- and you know what, interesting to me was none of those guys ever let on like they were greater than anybody else. I mean they were right there with us, then if you had a question that I answered for you and I mean they wanted to and I remember when we when we were told to pack her bag, we were leaving. And we didn't have a at that time. We didn't have a minister or anything so Pappy was a Christian Eddy, I'm going to have a prayer service over? Building, if you guys would have anybody was Kumkum and what walked. I was amazed at how many these guys, I didn't think, could spell God were there

They were on their knees, praying and Pappy was leading us and made an impression on me. do that that you know you're, not in control of anything. You just think you are, and the man upstairs is the one in charge so I Getting into some of this training, you say our training began with us, walking through our positions over and over again in daylight. During the first month there were, will changes to how we performed our mission? Each person had specific tasks to perform. Not only do we have to know our own role, but we had to know the role of the man. To our left and right and where they would be when the firing started then Dan and I were two man team as the Or to you for red Wine Security group, my job as captain and put it. I want you at arm's length from me or I will be the one to shoot you.

If you knew Captain Dan, he would have so you can bet. I stayed damn close to him. primary job of our two man team was to make our way to the communications building as fast as we could, to neutralize the people inside before they could radio for reinforcements we had to links to clear before we can get to the communication building the technique use for clearing a building was different from what our troops used today. As a too and team, we would first toss concussion grenade into the building. Why use a concussion grenade and not a frag grenade, the Answer is very simple: the bill. were, we were clearing of bad guys were not made of concrete, but of a thin material that a piece of foot frag would fly through. Captain Dan, stand to one side of the doorway and I would position myself on the other side across from him when the concussion grenade exploded. It would Jim we blow the door open or in in cases completely off as soon

the grenade exploded, Captain Dan would dive to the floor at the threshold firing in the room from the. Top left to the bottom right at the in time. I would step over him firing top right to bottom left by this we created an ax covering all the space in the room cap, Dan would remain on the floor and I would back out and shine my flashlight into the room. So Captain Dan could confirm that we had neutralized everyone. I would and put in a new clip depending on if I'd fired any tracer rounds. Captain Dan taught me that in combat you don't have to time to count how many bullets you fired. The technique is to first load five treasure rounds and in finnish filling the magazine when you're in a fire fight- and you see tracer smoking out the under your barrel. You know you need to change magazines. That's wild way to clear rooms, and I got to make a note here so when you say concussion grenade, so

at times like we, what we use now we use something all the time called a crash grenade or a flash grenade or Flash Bang it create a boom in a flash, but a concur. Shouldn't? Shooting grenade is big a deal thing is not the same as it creates not the same as a flash being at all? No, it's a big in fact there, a lot bigger than a frag grenade, the really big, and they create a massive explosion? Now, there's no fragmentation, as you mentioned, It is a massive explosion when that happens inside of a closed dryer you know, even if the doors or the walls aren't that strong it's going to create an issue, and what did you did you think the walls we're gonna be made of their in the camp? Well, if we and supported me a maiden just kind of like a fat, your trap, maybe and Adobe,

the compound itself is kind of a brick wall, but remember the French were in there before and I we were there and they had built to the pale, but the buildings on the outside were in the door burnt really yonder far as the solid doors. You know, they were pretty flimsy so you so you toss a concussion grenade into the room. Then cap Dan dives to the floor in the doorway ends a load of magazine on full order from the top left at the bottom right. While you, while he's doing that, you straddle him in the doorway and fire. A fourth mag on auto, go and top right. The bottom left him this is this is serious business. It was our own technique. When we, trying to figure out how to best do it:

Tuesday. As idea I will did he's it all hit the floor. You straddle me and you know, and then, when you're all fired, were you for away with Korea, the and hopefully that would down and with fear. Our mission was not to take Peel Debbie's Right and we had to go through that same area coming back and we both time and said I, if anything holding us up, so you neutralize everybody on the way through, and that was our orders and that's what we did and you know the the our way of clearing the building is quite different than than where they clear. Today we didn't worry about the collateral damage and you know you were the bad guy and that's what it was going to be. So we made sure that we neutralized moved on to the next building. Now. Will you worried about aware year, or did you

as planned in such a way that you're bullets that would go through this building that there was no friendly's on the other side. Did you guys have the whole thing kind of mapped out? We that friendly fire? In fact, even when the choppers came in and took out, the guard towers we made sure that we were shooting into one of the cells of the p I think, in order to do that, one of the pjs said you know he could fire and not hit the cell, so what they did, they put a a sheet up and test name and the guy did exactly what he said. He did do many took out the guard tower, but didn't have anything near close to the cells. So when they, when we flew in in live mode, that's what they did to take out

a couple of the towers, and then there was one tire that we had at blue boy had to take out because it was in a situation when we didn't couldn't fire in I not think we might hit a p. So that's how we did things It was a the only thing it was bad about. It is the hearing that there it like you, said those russian grenades are riddle and we didn't have. I had headset had I had my headset were Amazon one with off, but did I you stick your finger in me or hope that you could hear something after I came back and we're probably good couple of months I was just in my hearing today is gone from and I mush Irish from the concussion.

and yes cause. I mean the idea that concussions blow your eyes, not ears out yeah. That's what it's supposed to do is blow people fear drums out and it does and it does. I can tell you it's inter because when I first got the seal teams we and have a very big budget and and some of the training that we would do for or kill houses that we would set up they're made of plywood. so was actually harder in some ways, because you had to be aware of where everyone else was in the house or or in the building, because if you shot around into a target or you missed the target and we would have built bullet traps, sometimes we'd have bullet traps, but a lot of times we'd be just be shooting Priscilla Silhouette bullet, would go through the whole house yeah, and so we had to organize these things that you are all kinds stay online, even as you move through a clearance of a building to be safe and, and then

eventually we ended up getting really nice ballistic walls with, and then you get a lot. It's a lot easier to do and luckily, where we are fighting and like most of the time you know it was. It was calm. great walls or whatever so you could, you could actually shoot in rooms and they wouldn't generally go through the walls, but it the different level of planning when you have to count for Do your rounds just continuing downrange mode pass through. You know the building that you're in I'm in the collateral damage on something like that could be pretty high. If, if they're dead wrong. I mean when I, when we got Terry bucking, Lieutenant Dan Spray and thirty round mags. If that, if you don't, if you don't have a good plan, that's going to you're gonna shoot your own people, so You guys had to think through a lot of these things in a lot of detail, and the good thing is where you were. Training was the same thing. It wasn't like. You were training, a ballistic house. You were shooting through, you know, just whatever paper, whatever the cloth lay out exactly

from all this training you put together a life lesson three in your work, always be training and improving During the first month of our training, there were several changes made to how we approached our positions. I learned a very important lesson: invest, timing time in training. It pays off just like a football team trains for the big game. We training for our big game, the maid your difference. Our lives depended on how well we performed training sometimes gets boring, but when the bull start flying in both directions, you're. Sure glad that you know what is expected of you and your team members and you know that that probably, is one of the more important messages that I think could come out this book because I think the training that we did saved our lives, cuz. We had.

I mean we had one hundred and seventy seven rehearsals and part of those were alternate. You know If red wine went down, it was red wine alternate red wine. Greenleaf went down with Altima, when we were setting down that night and Sunday and at listening on my radio and I'm here alternate plan green I think the pucker factor do jump up there cause you just lost one third will get to it, but that at that moment you lost one third of your assault force, but our training and the training that we did paid off in spades because we we knew how to react, and it wasn't like. Oh now, what do we do? We know what to do. We trained for and the the planners this on T have done such an immaculate job.

I was thinking of all the different scenarios, the only one they didn't think about. It was the piano abbeys not be in there. That was the one that reaches. I mean Florida, everybody now, but yeah and even I thought through that and we'll get to the actual rate itself, but as much and went into it, and his much they tried to think of all the different scenarios that could take place. Something happened. They didn't plan for witches once agreement Greenleaf came back to the target site, so you had to do a link up, which is one of the hardest things to do in a combat zone, is linking up with friendly forces. In fact, I think it's the hardest thing to do. I hardest thing to do in combat is link up with friendly forces and sixty like they they got off. Just like we did anything in front of you is open game and you know we were.

And for a few minutes, are you got pretty testy and you know I have to compliment someone's again. Guys that were on Greenleaf you don't they. I knew they were coming back in on a haunted hill Z, they also knew that you know there's friend that and they had to restrain themselves through air was there was a pretty good air and they were coming from a firefight themselves, Jacqueline, so hot weapons there there amp up lay here you guys shootin, four hundred yards away and how their land and now a coppers and so it's a testament to the training just to the rehearsal of Hey, this is exactly what's going to happen and here's the contingency plan, but here's something that we didn't expect to happen, but we still have the good standard operating procedures. The presence of mind to make too to make right decisions and that's a test into all this training it was I mean, and that's not what I speak to military group,

today I said, I know we all hate to train, but I can tell you I am living proof that what Terry we trained on probably saved a bunch of lives and awesome life lesson going. It's the book. You said as one of the six guys assigned to guard the tactical operation center. I started to see that I might miss out on some of the key training. If I wanted to have a chance of getting selected for one of the assault force teams, I had to train when I was not pulling guard duty. Security was so tight that we didn't know who we would be rescuing or in what part of the world the mission would take place. There was a lot of speculation that it might be an attempt to free prisoners in Cuba, based on the three hour flying time of the mission. I been training and pulling guard duty for about a month. When I got my chance to speak up, I was internal both all funds for acts- as to the town talk building, While we are waiting for an escort to take the bull in, he asked how things were going for me. I knew

that he was only going to pick some of us for the actual mission, so I said sir, I didn't volunteer to come here and pull guard duty. If I wanted to pull guard duty, I would have stayed at Fort Bragg. The bull always had a two inch cigar that he chewed on. He looked me the eyes and said young man hang in there. Things are a change pretty soon. After that he went to the building. I thought to myself what the hell did. I just do. First, I chewed out tomb Sarge majors back for brag trying to get on this mission. Now I just told a colonel and not just any colonel but Bowl Simons that I was tired of pulling guard duty. I, bitch to the bull about pulling guard duty. I fought I'll, probably end up pulling guard duty for the rest of my time in the army. However, what he said was true. Within the next week, things did change. the first cut, was made on Friday September. Eighteen, they selected fifty one men and indeed Ten men were identified as back up that could be used in any of the different elements. I was somewhat

to be a part of the Red Wine Security group. I would be the article four captain Dan Turner? No more guard duty for me, the groups were each placed in their own areas in the barracks building to help the team concept. You know what why do you think you got selected, I sent an email today and Turner Dance passed away, but before passed away. I sent him an email asking him that and he he says. Basically I didn't bitch, about whatever I was asked to do and he said always had a great added dude that you know I can do that and whether I could do it or not. I took the attitude that I could get it done and you just

I felt like I, I was older than the twenty year old that he was accustomed to so and I think that's true attributed to just growing up in a farm, and you know you you do things that you know I started driving attract around six years old. You know As you know, is just and had to keep him between the males day when we were picking up pay I was about it. You know, but that's you do things back in those days that you wouldn't have thought about doing, but I was. I was confident that I could do the right job for him and hopefully I did. This also leads to another, a life lesson. Life lesson number, for you say, have patience and aggressiveness and contentment

the talk. We are not allowed to know the. Why As I saw my opportunity slipping away, I was aggressive hungry, be in the middle of the action. That's ok! It's not a fault to be aggressive. It's a virtue if can choose in your heart and in your mind, to be at peace and be thankful, trusting God with the outcome. So you got to know, I got to be patient at the same time. You do you know. Sometimes you got to approach the ball. Yeah yeah. I could tell you he wasn't offended by it. You know he just he asked the question: here's. My turn to tell him you know he's sending scatter go with it I mean that's what you're. Looking for when you're in charge of team, you want someone that was to go on to step up its Russian gave him for sure. You say In our training at Fort Bragg, we used blanks, but for a training here at exemplary field. Three, we use live ammunition. Our

for one day were throwing frank grenades and one of the guys got hit was shrapnel is only a minor cut, but it drove home the point that we needed stay sharp by the end of the first month we had practised until every person knew not only his own position, but all the job of every person around him and the alternate plans, then- We started practicing at night serious rehearsals going on. You go on to say when we first started training using the helicopters. The plan called for Captain Dan to be the first man off and for me to be the second now I had watched enough war movies to know that the first men off any vehicle get killed for couple of weeks we trained this way. I thought oh shit, we already have gonna, make it off the chopper. I can now meant that every time I stepped up stepped off the chopper, thought went through my mind of getting zapped before my foot even hit the ground then, Curfew rehearsals

and change to where Captain Dan and I were the last to off the chopper. All the sudden I thought damn now, but on the last guy off the bad guys will have their sights locked on. I will it nailed for sure. Eventually, I had to admit that if the good Lord wants me, he does in care from the first, the last or the middle, my makers, That brings me home when it's my time. That's some young paranoia happen either way. You did giant, say life less than five minutes. Important one be prepared for deaf dumb worry about it. You can't complain we control it make sure The day you meet your maker is not the first time you've been introduced. If you- are prepared at all times. Europe free to live life fearless, and I attitude. Eventually, you sad to say you know what whether in first weather them last. If it's my time it's my time, I can only control so much

a new point was really drive. Home last week, when my wife passed away that you know she he was prepared to meet her maker. I know that and she's in a better place today, because of that, so it holds true. mine her. Well, I mean it it's a testament when you can say that you know that your wife, the amazing life and and She passed away, and you know talkin before we. We started that you said what we're going to come out here. Anyways, we're gonna record this thing, because she would want me to carry on with the mission yep exactly yeah. That's a it's a it's an important part of the book. You know and

I think that I think that happens with young guys going into combat. You have to get to a point where you say now. You know what this good I could die tonight. you do that walking across the road. Do that walking across the road, and you can only control the things control. You can train hard. You can prepare you study the plan you can make the risk, but there's some rescue in our meal to mitigate right and if you concentrate on those things, those going to drive you crazy skills they take so from everything else. Why You talk more about some of the training that you did again you gotta by the book to get all the details you about some of the Friday night fights which will they would bring like a band and and, booze and women, and they had like a bar set up

you do that on Friday nights and again, it's crazy to think that you guys still don't know where you're going. You have no idea where you're going to try might be going to Cuba. I think they was somewhere else. You thought you might be going over planes hijacked on tarmacs around the world that we thought we might be going into rescue people on. I planes, so you have no idea what you're doing, which and everybody you know it was. We didn't know. We just knew we were going to do some type of rescue and we trained for it. and did you know that it was real so down. Okay cause. I know. Sometimes we would get spun up in such a way where they'd be like hey, we've got a mission and we think actually, this the the first deployment I went on we got recalled. We had little beepers now I was in Guatemala and we had beepers and they said If this thing shows up nine one one, you know you got twenty minutes, to get to base

going on, so we get there and I'm I'm one. I guess I'm nineteen or twenty at this point. Maybe I'm twenty or twenty one, but anyways, I'm young and very dumb and so think that I'm you know. I think I'm going to Vietnam, you know, I think, I'm I think I'm going to be like the combination of James Bond and Rambo and everybody else so we show up in Guam on deployment, my Paseo Petun, it's one thousand nine hundred and ninety two or one thousand nine hundred and ninety three anyways, but I think there's just you know this is it I want to war While we get all we got the range we get all for weapons dialed in just totally ready and then We are doing something I get that the nine one one on my pager and pop there you go here. It is it's on it's go time.

Run in a rush into back to base sittin opportune space in my leading petty officer, comes in and says. hey, they went inspected the range we didn't do, a good job cleaning up with. We got to go clean up my brass. Not exactly what I anticipate anticipated. But it's. yeah so you guys are doing this Friday night for oh, my point was that we were We sometimes get recalled to do something and they wouldn't tell us it was training until light. We are ready to launch your and we some guys would know some ago this just training, but of course I do like no way man, you were you guys. So did some of you think. Maybe this is just a big training operation. in the beginning. We kind of did but with bull being in charge and all the

We saw a lot of brass around us. You know this was the first mission ever to be under the direct control of the joint Chiefs of staff. We didn't know that at the time either I mean we. We knew that there was guys in Washington coming down every once in a while and David going to the building and we'd think. Why are they there? You know, but you know nobody ever explained to us that you know they were doing the same thing up in Washington D C, but it was. It was a we we just kind of. After the dark FED on bullshit, it's one of my worst and that's when it started, and we were just told, do our job and that's what we were doing. Speaking of Friday, night fight, you say: there's one in one:

interesting incident, that sticks in my mind, our barracks were two stories: world WAR, two style with one big open bay for all of us. I was on the first floor and our beds were lined up on each side of the room. It was about one thirty, a m when I was taken by crashing noises just for bunks down from mine three ends wrestling a master sergeant to the floor in our barracks, apparently the sergeant after quite a few drinks, had a disagreement with bull Simons at the bar concerning how the team should perform their mission and was frustrated that the truth were being kept in the dark The discussion got heated in the NCO, came back to his barracks, to get his weapon to persuade the good colonel to use his ideas the guys in the barracks held the Anzio until he eventually cooled down the next morning, the bowl and the NCL were on the p t field. The bull had the n c o heels locked at attention, while the chewed is bought up one side and down the other, the bow convinced him that he should not disagree with him again. At least not with a threat of bodily harm, but the bullet,

not let this effect is relationship with the answer. Were anybody else? The bull always said he didn't want a bunch of boy scouts we always for to Friday night flights, and this classic the following entry was made into the official talk right, turn of events. I believe this is the very discussion with that master sergeant, and so this is a quote from the actual record. It says twenty seven October, seven, one thousand eight hundred and fifteen Colonel Simons, discussed grievances with operational personnel and discuss progress and quote that was interesting evening in more than in the next day we were, we were all looking out the window thinking. What would you like to be a little mouse here in with that favor stations about, but the it was over in He went on a mission with us he, but the boy

I said you know I did my boy scouts. Well, he didn't have any so yeah I as a leader. You want to have guys that are gonna push back. If they disagree with you cause, you might have a bad idea yeah. Now you don't had to go to the fair and try and grab a weapon you, do want to hear there they're going to say and what why they think that know, fast forward a little bit. Monday November 16th, one thousand nine hundred and seventy. We were told the AK our gear that we were leaving Eglin AIR Force Base for our new undisclosed location. The next day we didn't have a chaplain to our group in our group, but we did have Pappy Pappy announced that he would be holding a prayer service in the barracks. Pappy was respected by all the raiders and officers from the bull down there In a command in world war, two Pappy had been an outermost scout. Just like bull silence. They had both been on the aid, read that freed five hundred peeled abuse. There's a.

Two thousand five major motion picture called the great raid Pappy was pretty famous in the army, particular and special forces. When I walk into the barracks where Pappy was holding the prayer service, it really struck me how many of these seasoned so jurors were there to pray on their knees to our father in Heaven. I can tell you There were no atheists in our group. The next morning you guys, get on board a c one, forty one first place. You land is California next place, you land is Alaska and you still don't know where you're going, though they still have not told you where you're going the next, papa would be our new home for a few days. It was a long flight. We didn't get much sleep, but at least we touched down at our final destination. It was November 18th eighteenth at three dot m. When we stopped you stepped off if you one forty directly into a large hangar, they loaded us into what would what I thought were add trucks, the air in this dark land had a sweet, tropical smell, warm and human. The old warriors thought we were in Southeast Asia, but were not certain. We never knew

until many years later, but the CIA compound at the Tak Lee was right, tat, we re all tie AIR Force base when Trucks arrived at some barracks. Most of us went straight to bed. Our trip had taken twenty eight hours. Do you know where you are? some of the old timers are thinking hey it kind of smells like Southeast Asia. That's about all! I got that's right! We were awakened at six, a m had breakfast and went about our morning as normal. We were told to the mess hall at eleven a am a little earlier than normal launched during lunch. We were told to go to our barracks immediately after we finished eating and get some sleep. To ensure we got some sleep, Lieutenant Colonel Joe Cataldo, our doctor, who would be going on the mission and into the compound with us, required every one of us to take a sleeping pill as we exited the mess hall as we walked the barracks, the old timers explained that they had never had to do that before. It was pretty clear that this would be the night.

I spent the rest of the afternoon walking around the compound and talking the other raiders about what they feel was going on the time two very slowly that afternoon by far p m. Everyone was awakened from our bunks and told to get to the mess hall for dinner, then meet in the theater at teen hundred by seven, In thirty we started filling the theater. You could tell We want is getting pomp for what we were about to learn. and this is where you get the the speech I open this whole thing up with where you finally find out. where you, where you are actually going these, who had no idea and that the way you write about that that reaction that everybody had. Would you say I mean I would imagine that all these other possible missions that you could be going on there be none more favorable. and I'm going to actually rescue other american service members. In Vietnam, I mean that's, that's the

it's the pinnacle, that's what we thought too. we were ready to- they've been there that have been home at night, all seventy or more. So you get, speech I twenty one hundred the bread trucks took us to a hanger that we used as our staging area. We checked our weapons. I carried a colt em nineteen eleven, a forty five caliber pistol. My machine gun was a car fifteen with eight twenty round magazines and five thirty round magazines the tipps I've learned for Captain Dan on how I should load my magazines, a strap want to frag grenades and ten concussion grenades Dan told me that if we ended up needing to use frogs well, we are probably in some deep shit so if I do not have to use them We use the concussion grenades and cute in clearing the buildings. My next task was to check the batteries on both my radios. my handset and my headset on my prick twenty five

The way we were we were to communicate with lieutenant colonel. his ground command team I said: allow me to listen to the radio traffic and still fire my weapon and toss grenades, each inter carried or carried a survival radio prick. Ninety you turn on these radios. They send out a warble tone that allows SAR search and rescue team to pull you out of a hot situation. Among fifty six raider raiders. We had Ninety two radios. so getting your gear ready and you go some you gets pretty cool, and here you know four people that are going to get the book which ensures a lot. You go through that a gear list of absolutely everything that you're carrying every all the specialty gear that you had changed so Jane solves the guys. We're carrying welder said large welders, which, even though, despite your incredible welding skills, you didn't get aside

how do you sign to somebody else signing and was probably about six? Sixty two sixty three it hurts those pretty easy, but nobody wanted to be around tiny get shot and he doesn't get shot. It's going to be a disaster and time to go c one thirty landed at you doing at twenty three hundred ushered out. The guys are ushered out to your Hh50, fifty three choppers. We go at twenty three. Seventeen with all the green berets aboard apple to lifted off, forming put the other five helicopters and lime, one and lime to the four engine c, one hundred and thirty Hercules tanker that would take us to the border of north. Vietnam. During training? We only made the fourth We are long flight twice. The idea, I think, was too keep us from trying to figure out where we might be going. What I remember about that night was how high it was an end at the sky, was very clear

long chopper flight from you, dont Santi, I spent a week. What time in prayer You can learn a little bit about yourself, seeing what your mind latches onto when you know that in a few hours you might be meeting your maker. God has an important. God has been important part of my life as long as I can remember, my mother's side of the family attended church pretty regularly compared to my dad side, the bucklers like to drink dancing party, not to say and believe in God. They just like to celebrate a little bit more after an hour of flying. Most the guys were lying back against the sides. The chopper some guys had their eyes closed, eager, praying or sleeping. I thought too much of these men are true warriors many of the raiders were married. Some had kids, my age or older There is a lot of small talk. I figured each man was thinking. There was not a lot of small talk. I figured each man was thinking of his family, each one knew the risky was taking. We will no doubt tripping all other warriors before Us- are

Water is filled with men and women who are willing to risk their lives to protect this great country. Back and had a nice little talk with the big man upstairs. I asked and protect to protect us tonight. it was the longest three hours I'd ever experienced. I thought about my mom and dad and how they would feel. If I didn't make it back, I wondered what they would think when they read the letter I'd written to them. Before I left, I thought about What my dad told me before I left for the army don't volunteer for anything. So I do I volunteered for airborne, then special forces and now for this raid mom and dad would be heading two moose lodge this weekend for Saturday outing. I thought about Doug, my older brother, who served in the Navy submarines for nine years. I thought about how my brother's nigh fought and the crazy things we had done on the form I thought about the times I hunted squirrels with dad. I fought back to the first squirrel. I killed. I shot him about nine times and when dad- and I were skinning it- he said we might give me-

poisoning when we eat this one. I thought about buddy Charlie Cottingham fun. We had as kids I fought back to the Times MIKE and I spent riding our horses into the woods around our farms. I guess I was trying take my mind off the mission, because I could Stop mentally rehearsing my duty for the mission over and over and over I got stretch my legs and look out the window. I would could see the other choppers in the moonlight it was like. We were doing just another rehearsal soap, cared we were, but this was the live, run we are actually going in. I stop by down and said, another prayer for us and waited rush to arrive at Sandy, nor three unarmed. So long

flight. That's a long flight to be sitting there. Thinking about this target that you're going into yep, it was certainly was, were you there's so many details in this book that I'm not covering, because I don't want to entire book, but How well aware were you of the poor stability of surface to air missiles. We knew they had brought. Several of our pilots down, but we weren't That was a little more mine in a way Grunts underground, so that didn't you know, SAM's, don't fact us we had one fired at his head. We realise just tell them close in God. So, you guys were blessed with a little bit of all if you were have been a little bit naive. Yes, and I know that we've

We ve lost a lot of are naive attitude about helicopters because we ve taken some some. Quick hits in helicopters and lost a ton of incredibly great people. but but for you guys, you weren't really thinking about that much work and and you we we knew we had air cover with a one, and you know we had a money flying over us all. The time when we were on the compound so were the bridge we were supposed to blow it because of the alternate window Blow it, but the aim only took out the bridge force, and so We knew we had good cover there and then We weren't that aware of what was going on at the same time from the gulf of, and you know,

Sixteen aircraft coming, in which I mean that's the largest air raid in Vienna, history today brief you guys on any of that? No, we had no idea about it till we got back as they had basically set up a massive diversionary operation. On the other side of honey, I write to to distract from what you guys were women. I think it really worked if you use some of the after action reports it. That came back said that you know some of the and the Migs didn't get off the ground because they were confused as where they were coming from, and you know we were dropping flares over and I and while we were we can in the backside society. So all their attention was coming from the Gulf attacking and there is the same size,

Just south of us and any aircraft as well I mean, I think we had a total of twenty Sams fired at us at night and one of them the first one, the first and the only one I really remember, was the one when we We had land and done our deal and we were coming out and we got on the bird and marine are countless off. You know, so we did another count, it was still off and then so did a third counted and this time Dantonio countered himself, which was kind of in the excitement. I guess you know but anyway, so we we got up and we we were sat in the rear pj between us and Dan, and I were on both sides of the tail

as we were, leaving nine North Vietnam and the chopper is it turned and we were looking over the lights of Hanoi. Just like you'd be looking over the lights here in San Diego, I mean couldn't believe how big it was, and then we fly without well. We're gonna mania were back on a boat and were hit. no at about that time. Her chopper just dropped and we thought oh, we got hit or something and about that time, big, looked like a light pole flying up our rear and it probably missed his, but I would say no more than two hundred meters it was, I mean it was close and, of course, our pilots. We had the very best pilots, the air force had those guys I swear they. They did a fantastic

the job of getting us in getting this out, and it was. It was a bit. That's where that's where I really got scared honestly cause. You know I kind of had control of everything on the ground, but when you're up there man. I have a lot of respect for those guys, they're sitting ducks and you know they are released one another, the the choppers, but one jets was taken out by that night, but the pilots were, the next morning so, but just shows you how quick it can happen as you're going in. Are you thinking? What are you

thinking your chances are. You know what my thoughts were? Okay, the good Lord is with me and with us, and we're going to be all right, but I got to do my day. Whatever it takes, you know. One of my biggest fears was what I freeze you know having never been in combat. You know I mean I've heard a guys have been in combat before freezing even guys have been in for a long time- and I know- but that was a concern of mine but I'll be able to. But all the old timers kept coming up to me. So don't hesitate, don't have it we do don't hesitate. Was there anyone else that had no combat experience? There's four of us had never been in combat before hell. Out of how many fifty six four of us never been in combat. So it was eye opening experience.

when they enter, whom I want em out. Where is he saw more combat mass on a year in throwing us, oh yeah, sorry. regarding the euro to twenty seven November twenty first nineteen seventy when we were just about to land land. I heard through the chatter in my headset, the voice of sergeant First class Howell came through. He was the or to you for the tenet, colonel sinner, the girl force commander for the raid. Turn plan green, I repeat, alternate When green. Do you copy this is only the first of the bad news. I would here tonight Iris I did say again sergeant first class howl alternate plan green alternate plan, green over

at back into my hand, MIKE Roger Alternate, planned green over? I thought myself holy crap. This can't be real. I turned happen Dan and told him? We were going to alternate plan. Green captain Dan gave me that oh shit look. I come He told me to pass the announcement on to others in red wine plan. Green meant one thing to all of us on the red wine chopper. We knew that we had twenty two fewer men there, be a lot less firepower as we hit the ground. Whether green leaf group had mechanical problems or had been shot down. We knew the mission, including the all, no plans with that with or without the twenty two men of green leaf group. We were going to keep the mission and would now have to perform their role as well as ours. So what did happen If you're again, you go into these details in the book, but Greenleaf this one other chopper. Had landed in the wrong spot. There was

schoolyard, that was four hundred yards to the south and it looked com like the peered up. You can play a little school compound right. and that's where they landed. The Colonel Colonel Bull Simons was with them. Yes, so you get this. call that hey we're going to we're, still go in there in the wrongs. Babo we're still go and you still need to execute the mission, and this is where you have life lesson number six dont be indispensable all be training a backup person for your job and always be learning to be a backup for your teammates. Applies to any job in life, the graveyards are full of indispensable men, but yeah, that's a sketchy situation, half got one third, the troops, and and as this is happening, I'm going back to the book at that moment, the mini gun in the door to our right, fired off a few hundred rounds for those you not familiar with the minigun is a gun that fires four thousand rounds of ammo

permitted at has been. It is left honestly driven rotary breach to feed the ammo bell at lightning speed. Now my heart was already pounding, but the sound of that many gone firing two feet from me really took me to a new level. I it's my headset on the prick twenty five on my back and feel for my ammo parent pouches. I check for frags in my concussion grenades. I place my finger on the safety and make sure I have the safety off in my car fifteen and is set on auto. I make sure to have the thirty round magazine. Well seated and I chamber around in training have done this one hundred times, but this is it my first time in combat this is no game, I'm not as scared as much as I am excited. This is the moment I have trained for the reason I joined the green berets. I don't I can't let cap Dan down or the other raiders as the or to use for the Red Wine Security group. My job is to stay close to. Captain Dan he's commander of Red Wine- and I am expected to protect his backside

The tailgate is lowered, the choppers feathering to the ground. We are about to touch down on the enemies homeland and there is no rescuing us if there has been a security breach. I feel the chopper settle as it has done so many times in training. Red wine group is unloading exactly as we have practiced over one hundred and seventy times the Mets, The difference is that this time the bullets are flying in both directions, It is amazing how fast you can ask it a chopper, Captain Dan and I start off the tail. The chapter, the last two men off, I'm literally one step to his right side. As we run our boots started. Splashing the rice patties when a north vietnamese army soldier fires at us from the very building. We were to clear a couple The zip by us a natural reaction. I placed the green not from my arm a light single point site on the guards chest and fire three rounds. He immediately falls to the ground. In that instance, I don't hesitate. The season warriors taught me really paid off, don't hesitate,

I imagine most of the warriors in your first time, downrange wandering the back of your mind. How you will respond to that moment. Would I freeze when faced with the decision, to kill or be killed, I'd only just stepped onto the enemies ground, and I had my first kill there be, what oh come as we cleared the buildings out of the gate, you know, I watch a lot of fighting and they always talk about you- know, who's got the fastest record knockout in a fight. You might have the fastest keel on enemy territory hate. You step offered your immediately engaging guy, that's kind of crazy to think about it is I and about it that way, but

you go on Captain Dan thanks me as we charge towards our first building. I am following Captain Dan with bullets blazing in men. Moving to their positions alternate plan. Green is proceeding. We here are chopper app. too loudly lift off the rice patties to wait about a mile away until they are called back in to take us home with the pure Debbie's? We came to free in the back of our minds. If these birds get battle damage, it will be a long way back to friendly lines. No time to think about that We move forward to clear our designated buildings nearest near. to US masters sergeant Joe Loop Yak. red wine element to which includes him sergeant First class Tyrone, Adderley and sergeant first class Billy Martin, each of us knew this was going to be much more difficult than it was during training. These Buildings at green leaf group would have neutralised according to the original plan, and they would have had fourteen of their men on this task under all plan Green five of our team. We're now going to have to do it.

They also had more firepower sergeant, first class, Jack of Anko was carrying an M sixty by upon machine gun, which we don't have on our team will. we did still have was the element of surprise. Bull Simons told us. If there was security leak, we would know it by the time the second chopper landed. We turned out to be that second chopper and we're Operating like a well oiled machine captain and is redirecting our red wine group comprised of four elements, and it is, and is making sure we are getting the job done as as a virgin to combat and as Captain Dan's Archie. Oh, I stay close to him. You have to respond. can trust the men with whom you go to battle. This is where the months of training pay off. We know what we have to do next alternate plan green means at the bridge, nor for the appeal W Camp will remain open to enemy reinforcements crossing it, since we do have enough raiders to send someone to blow it,

over the radio is Lieutenant Colonel Sidner directs the a one he sky, raider pilots, to light it up with rock I missiles. If anyone tries to cross at the a ones will open up with twenty millimeter cannon those My boys are cocky, but damn they're good at their job. What amazes me is that in all this chaos only one of only one green beret gets wounded is sergeant First class Joe Marie Joe is a member of Master sergeant, Herman Spencer's team whose job is it it is to secure the area south of the South Wall. That's the wall closest to where the helicopters dross dropped us off and will later pick us up master sergeant, Spencer's carrying a forty lb block of C four explosive slung over his shoulder it is to be used to blow the bridge. It turned out to be a good shield for him as we

and it in spilled out of our helicopters, Spencer, Murray, immediately rush towards their objective. The guard shocked by the South Wall Spencer, took couple rounds from a guard with an a forty seven in the block of sea for he was carrying Joe Marie would not be that lucky. That's something that surprises people is that C4 is relatively stable when it's when by itself We have blasting caps or detonation cord, because those things will blow up and then they make the C4 blow up but C4 by itself is relatively stable. back to the book when Spencer was dealing with that guard that delayed spent just such that Joe

arrives at the guard shack alone. The building needs to be cleared immediately before the enemy troops inside can all emerge, so Joe decides to use a frag grenade instead of a concussion grenade, as he is about to toss in the window. He feels his leg push forward with a burning sensation, Joe tosses, the frag grenade in neutralizing, the guard shack. He then to eliminate the threat Spencer now arriving fires. His machine gun for and eliminates three guards Was the only army raider to receive a purple heart? That's crazy! That's and there's like. Is there just a massive amount of gunfire at this point? You yeah it's everybody's button loose with everything, a God and you have one Guy get hit in the leg back of his leg

I going on for Captain Dan and me, the objective is to get to the communication buildings as fast as possible to prevent that from calling for reinforcements it's a good, fifty meters ahead of us and it's open airy with no cover two buildings to clear before we clear the communications building, we were told that we would Take any northward enemies, army prisoners and neutralize everyone. Will be coming back through the same area. Bull doesn't want anyone preventing us from getting back to the choppers. To do this, we have to ensure that there is no one alive to ambush us on our way back. Captain DEN are getting closer to the communications building. We can see the main guard. Houses on fire and people are running away from us, clearing the main guard house was the job of another red wine element and they apparently are succeeding. I have two more buildings to clear the first one is empty. The second one has a few north vietnamese army soldiers. I tossed,

concussion grenade into the room and as soon as it explodes, Captain Dan drops the floor and I stand in the door straddling him. We a crossfire with me, firing fully automatic from right to left and he from left to right. He clear, and I back out shine my flashlight. So we can confirm we've neutralized everyone, as there are a number of them, we do a closer check that they are all neutralized. the clearing of the buildings at saunter. Captain dan- and I are the only two man team, depending on how close you are to the grenade when it explodes it can bust. Your drums and pretty well mess you up at building. Twelve is I'm confirming everyone is dead. It's a grim task, whatever thinking right now it is far more grim than that. A guard raises his weapon behind me captain neutralizes him. There is no doubt that decisive action. Captain Dan saved my life. Sir you're sitting, you're going through the buildings. Are you just doing security rounds, and these guys and

in one of them that you haven't gotten to yet we just we just put a bowl in there by sure and while you're doing that, one of those guys that you hadn't gotten to yet yet he's going to take a shot at you. dancing girls and there I had my back to him, but he did Dan Farage, scared me. I thought somebody but it was, it was day and shooting arraignment and again there was going to take me out so Approaching zero to two eight lieutenant colonel sinner received notification. That green leaf group is not out of commission. We can hear apple, one landing in our told the hold fast until Greenleaf elements get to their original plan positions with tat, two men of green leaf team, including both Simons. We are back on track within one minute. Greenleaf has secured the guard quarters per the plan and

eggs over their rules that the red wine T team members had been handling for them again. That's it comp. That seems real, easy but when you got all the shooting going on and now you got friendly's moving in a position where there's other friendly's and you got enemy shooting at you that this is a sketchy think it was very intense right there, and we were kind of away from it. We were. We were who introduced communication building and here was where they were coming. From course you was, he had. I am. Seventy nine grenade so he was pooping them right in the windows and he Kentucky is work. Real wealth Tyrone is getting the bull Simons Island? so I'll. Send me out today and he'll so well deserved. That's outstanding

You go on here at zero, two, twenty nine. We had just reached the communication buildings. When I heard on my headset negative items, I told Captain Dan He asked me, are you sure items was the code word for p, o W's? It didn't make any sense That's the next radio call I heard was at zero, two thirty beginnings, action to choppers. We enter the reunification billings without tossing a grenade. It was empty at this time. started to move back to the LZ for extraction. We still moved with the assumption that there could be more enemy soldiers lying in the bushes, while the hello, Coppers were en route were returning to act, Iraq, us one red wines roles was to clear The planned lz by cutting down certain light poles. That task revealed one frustrating person. Surprise we brought a chainsaw to cut down certain wooden telephone poles, but sergeant first, ass, Charles Masten and sergeant

first class Ronnie Stray hand were to blow up a tall, concrete light pole, the that mass in history has finished, placing them for one pound, packets of C4 explosive, we're ready to blow and we're conforming confirm that they should act to activate the fuse apple. One was arriving waited until Apple wanted landed off Greenleaf and departed ensured of safety. They detonated the C4 as the pole rose into the air. A huge flash of light mastered and stray hand could see that this was not a light pull it had for large high tension, power lines, dancing sparks were everywhere as the four huge power lines hit. The rice paddies the very rice paddies in which our soldiers impudent bees would be marshalling to load returning choppers. We were going to have find a new location where we going to have to find a new location for the Yellow Sea mask stray hand and Captain Jim Clam as the marshalling air Control officer immediately set about ensuring they understood

location of all the wines and whether they were hot after assessing the situation and ensuring there were no other potential hazards. They began, placing the bean bag lights. Area suitably distant from the power lines. As everyone returned to the Elsie waiting for the whole coppers, we have a few minutes to gather people and equipment to load on apple, one and apple. Two. You snuck one of your life. Lessons in here don't be a complaint The world is moving on and needs people to solve problems. Evaluate your situation, make a decision and execute any new plan without complaining and feel sorry for yourself not going to help now can help the situation you gotta make things happen, cycling

no p, o W's was not something we had spent time. Thinking about. I could hear shadow on my headset, I heard the or to you for bull say that ball was coming into the compound bull had to verify with his own eyes that there were no peeled abuse as zero two thirty seven apple one landed facing east toward Hanoi and loaded red wine group and blue boy group. Captain Dan and I were the last ones to board the two of us sat in the tail of the chopper loading, the door fully down open with a mini gun mounted right between us manned by an air force. Pga zero to forty. We lifted off and turned west looking out tale we had a front row seat with a bird's eye view of Honeoye. I will never forget that view. I couldn't How big are no way was, and how close we were to it? It look like major city in America. We only twenty miles from the capital of North Vietnam.

Never before had the Va North vietnamese Army been violated. Like this that's It really hit me what we had just done. we were rising only a minute or two after lift off suddenly are chopper, took a hard dive to the left. What looked like a tell phone pole with a bright red fireball shot by us. I yelled over a captain Dan. What the hell was that For he could answer the Gunnar standing between us yelled, but it was a surface to air missiles. Sam I was scared, while was on the ground, but now I was really scared and this is what you are talking about before on the ground. I have a fighting chance, but being in a chopper at six hundred feet, you feel like a sitting duck, thank God for the best pilots, we could have these as knew how to handle it. We were soon from the threat into the dark jungle, mountains and headed for you, doin.

during the next three hours on the flight back to base. I had plenty of time to replay what we had done that night. Like the rest of the raiders, I was very disappointed that we came home with no p o w's. I kept thinking what went wrong. Why, when, when had the Cuba abuse been removed that I returning to you doing, seemed a lot longer than the flight to sovereignty we ve been so pumped up about our mission, to find no pew WS was the last thing that would have ever crossed our mind beyond the two wounds received. U S, therefore, text ardently or rights ankle was broken during do want to cry landings and sergeant. First last Joe Murray. America's only casualty our night. That night was are morale. And that's somethin again you you cover these details in the book, but one of their one of the aircraft act, We crash landed on purpose into the compound great blue boy,

and the reason for that was the people. in the planning. Thought we'd drop in a c one hundred and thirty. but they didn't know if the guards had orders to shoot the peel Debbie's. If there was a rescue attempt or Actually, what so they they planned on having control of the guards within sixty seconds a minute. I gave us a minute to have complete control of the guards inside the compound and I've been taken out to to guard towers and the third one.

by blue boy and then controlling the guards and being in there and that's what we did. I mean they they did. They did a great job on Erin. It's just that there was no p o w in there and a gun in the gun. You know people say, will lower their guards, and you know we don't know if they were why the regards, but they were still in the towers when we we, I say we, they read

in green or blue boy took care of them, so her job was outside. We were really on teams, red wine, green leaf and blue boy all had specific tasks to accomplish, and that's what we did. We worked on our task to get that done and if everybody did their task, we had practiced and rehearsed so many times. It would be a great success and it was a success from the standpoint of doing the job of eliminating the threat and controlling the p o w camp and the guards we just didn't, anticipate appeal. Debbie. I'll be in there was the heartbreaking part of it. You say this to say we were disappointed, would be under state understatement. Some

Talked about how maybe we should have gone into Hanoi, we were thinking crazy thoughts like that. That's how confident we were we got rest at you dont for a couple hours before c, one thirty, and we are grief again in the auditorium, what to say and more importantly, what not to talk about we packed our duffle bag, secured our equipment and had a few hours to relax the c one hundred and forty one that we boarded was one that had been prepped for medevac, ready to bring pows home. Now it's and was just to bring us to Elgin at Eglin. all the after action reports were finalized. Exhaust exhaust auxiliary number three and we spent two days before heading home to North Carolina on sea. One. Twenty three is. So that's it! You do like a debrief. You fill out your paperwork, explaining what exactly you did and then you wrap up at the training, so we had spent all this time preparing for the mission

and then you say this landing at Pope. Air Force Base North Carolina couple days later was a very happy time. before the raiders and for all the people awaiting us, families, friends and the army, support personnel there to process us back to our normal world for brag infer for me personally That is most memorable moment. It was, the training or the day or of the launch or the landing at saunter. For me, it was the landing Pope AIR Force Base. I will never forget what I witnessed that day. I was a single guy. So a couple my buddies came to pick me up but standing there on the flight line. When I looked around at the men unloading from the airplane, I saw their wives and children running out to meet them. It really hit me the boy had warned us that we had a fit, the fifty chance of not coming home a fifty fifty chance of this moment, never happening if there in a security breach. It was unlikely that we could have been rescued

These warriors had laid their lives on the line to rescue fellow warriors. four days after the raid on Wednesday November, twenty fifth nineteen. Seventy President Nixon honoured the sovereignty raiders by having rate or representatives in a televised ceremony in the White House is EAST room. They had to be pretty pretty cool. pretty crazy you're, not always on the news, Can everyone note now? He almost immediately knew what had happened right and the only reason for that was the fact Hanoi had come on said they had been bombed and what they had been not bomb, but they had flares dropped out over the city, and that was the diversion process and

so the United States had to come on and say no, we didn't bomb them when we did a p o w raid, and these were aircraft that were dropping flares to offset Saute raiders coming in on the backside. So it was kind of a political, but you know to justify what we had done and the fact that we're in the attempt was made to free p, o Ws which was a long way in that arena. Back then. This is how how would you say this level of of media compared to the Bin Laden Raid, I mean. If the thing about the Bin Laden raid was we weren't the.

The war wasn't intent as intense. At that point. As Vietnam wasn't me, Vietnam was rightful lawn, so it would have gotten a little bit less attention. I mean that the Bin Laden raid was compared about us about his big of a new story. Is this ever Ben? I fail that's true, and you know, then the good thing. If you look at the big lion raid compared to the scientific re, they were they copied and what the Santini rain is about, and that's the good part about Santa rate is the impact is hanging over the years on all the raids that had been done since then have been model

after this anti re, because not because the success it had of getting in guinea now but the way the away they planned it and all the information that went into that and how they, how they plan it made an impact on this. Excessive it I mean, I know, I know you know I'd Mama Graven, he wrote it was More like his thesis when he was at the postgraduate school about all the most important special operations missions in history right and he wrote about this anti raid and then he was also one of the guys you on Senior guys conducting the planning for the Bin Laden Raid, so yeah there's a direct connection. Connection in between the lessons learned and and the proto. all that you used it to get this done and yeah No doubt about that. It's a pretty

interesting to see that through to see this thread in history, and now it is, I mean- and today Anti Racist, Stalin and all the military schools- and you know so- come in fact, they're making a movie on this. It's a and the so calm, making the movie more as a Hollywood making the movie it's a a group of people that are doing a documentary, okay, but the seventh special forces is going to my understanding is they're going to participate in having the Sunday raid as a training film,

for future, because what they've done they've interviewed a lot of the people on the raid and they've interviewed the peel WS and they've kind of combined it all together. In fact, next in May, I'm going down there doing a screening on it at Socom, and I am going down to see the screening and make sure all we. We always told anybody, that's going to do this. We want a. We want it to be authentic. We don't want Hollywood. So last year I went out to Phoenix and in a group the group is building us a movie on it and they actually built the compound and they use they head

brothers from each group saw red wine, green and even blue boy and in a navigation, John Kargus, Corona Nargis. Who is air force the navigator that took us in and they made all of the they wanted to know how we cleared a building. They wanted to know all that stuff and hits home. The by on the hand, grenades in and all that stuff, and they did a really good have done a really good job on it and they're they're shopping, and I think the Netflix and everything right now, but they're very close to Heaven to completed, but they've really done a nice job of making it Athentic as to what actually took place and how it happen would be a good training film, they're gonna be asking to see you see here. I remember being told to report to the repair parade feel that my dress greens?

December, ninth, nineteen, seventy nine hundred award ceremony as a nice sunny cool day when Secretary of Defense, Melvin Laird personally presented the medals to the members of the Santee raid. There I stood spit shine, jump boots, jump wings, expert four badge and the seventh special forces group risen ribbon breeder general. Henry Emerson, the commander of special forces at Fort Bragg thank the raiders for their courage and dedication. We had reflect well on the green berets and then you all were awarded. It was, I think, six distinguish servers crosses five air force crosses were worded. There was, a total of eighty five silver stars which included all of the raiders right. and the following comments were made by. Secretary of Defense, Melvin Laird. He said this.

We are here to honor the brave, the brave and dedicated men we confer on them today awards that express their gratitude. Their countries attitude and admiration. The mission for which these men volunteered called for undaunted courage and deep compassion. They were asked to go, deep into enemy territory, to four and, if possible, to rescue their comrades in arms who, Prisoners of war. they performed their mission flawlessly from the outset? The president, the nations top military leadership- and I gave told, Oh and unqualified support to this mission. I knew as these men did, how grave were the risks they willingly undertook. I knew, as these men did, that there was a chance, disappointment and even of failure. the reasonable chance to return to freedom. Americans held captive, made this miss,

well worth the risk, if a similar chance to save Americans were to arise tomorrow. I would act just. As I did in approving and supporting the effort at San TE. Man, that's not too often the secretary defense shows up at your command to start handing out. Eighty five silver stars leads deal after that, I'm going to book. You say they gave each of us thirty days leave on charged again, star balance you get thirty days of free, that's nice so went for a whole month of December, back home Missouri. We talked about a little at the mission, but not too much it's funny. How some people don't understand the significance of a combat raid. I wasn't going to try and impress upon them. Most of my friends had not gone into the military, so I didn't have any significant conversations with them about the raid, some of the

got married and were busy with their own lives my dad good listener. For me, he expressed his pride and after a few beers at the east, tavern in Moberly. He told me some of his friends even hold some of his friends what I had done, but to tell you the truth, after about four or five days ready to head back to brag and my army buddies. You got life lesson eight here says veterans, we all have a mission. Listen to your fellow veterans is important for the veteran, but is also important for the listener. It is important for America, good stories and bad. They need to be told. Please take my request to heart and talk with a veteran and that's one thing that you have in this book got a whole. It's over one hundred and forty pages of this book is all the different prospect. We just told your perspective and it's very interesting to hear your perspective as the youngest guy on the raid, with no combat experience.

But you have the perspective of a bunch of different people not just the raiders, but the support p the aircraft that the aircraft, the crew, the ve, got incredible amount of stories to be told that are told this book that every one of them gives a different angle of the story. It's and how that came about. When I started writing my I started writing a book in two thousand and twelve. My daughter went to Afghanistan time and cheap is asking a what all you do, and I thought my on a document there's has been several books on the raid, but no By anybody there was on the ground so that care what prompted me to do it so badly The thing that I I got out of that was in the process. I realized that, more than my opinion. So I we have an email chain that we go out on

So I sent an email out to all the p o w narrators and these port guys. If you have something that you would like to put in the book, you know, send it to me I'll put it in an edited into the book, and I got about forty of them. As summer, one paragraph summer. Therefore five pages you know, but it's there mobile moment on the re per at the rate, or whatever might be. I didn't know it just gives a whole different perspective. You know from a p o w standpoint to a guy fly to you know mid mid cap over us and it it really. I think, round the book yeah, it's not going to read it Claire get the book, but the story about the guys that got hit with a frag from the surface to air missile and ended up punching out just here in that story with talking about. You know they're they're, just having a conversation like we're about to.

About to eject from an aircraft which, by the way, is a life, in depth thing this year when, when you eject from an aircraft, there's I dunno what the chances that you're going to die, but there's we a strong chance, an image of Europe. exact in through the canopy gone four hundred miles an hour whatever it is dead. Lowering yeah you there's a decent chance, you're gonna die just from that, and then you get a land and wherever Vietnam, Laos the ocean. You don't know what the hell's going to happen, and these guys are talking about it. Like they're thinking, I think we're going to have to punch out yeah, okay. Well, let me know when you're ready, they're doing it like this freaking, calm, cool and collected rolling on a great guy to get the meeting and then of course they end up having to get picked up. You know yeah the next day they spend the night. It's like a little afterthought of the book, but it's it's it's own story in itself. So you're,

taking your own advice on life lesson eight and get these other stories out. There so check out which I got to get the book for stuff as well. You say here: life goes on the next week I was back at D company seventh special forces group at Fort Bragg. That's it back to back normal life a you end up, getting involved in the sport of orienteering, which is like map and compass while you're running dear you spend time doing this Orient hearings or like as that as part of the team, of seventh special forces group you say by December nineteen. Seventy one our team and represent a special represented special forces in several orienteering, meets. I finished fifth. In the US military championship, seventh and the US championship 45Th and the canadian championship. So

go through that, and then you say when I heard in December, one thousand nine hundred and seventy one that the army was offering early outs. That really appeal to me. I felt ready to do my own thing and not to be What do all the time I took advantage of the opportunity separating January fifth, nineteen. Seventy two started back junior college January seventh back home, so How long was your total service will? I was act three years and I was in reserved for four I stayed. Ok sure you were you a risk when you actually do in reserve duty on weekends and went out- and I was making I need to go to college So you go to school Would you study in school business at their Varden Independent study and then you graduate and you're, not Nineteen seventy four having a little trouble finding a job but but

at one of the sovereignty, raiders review and you you get connect it with Ross Perot Hour is he had the reunions in nineteen. Seventy four, I guess what the pows and the raiders at San Francisco, and we had an afternoon. He brought all the raiders and the p o w together, and he said you know. If there's any thing I can ever do for any of you. Let me know, and as a result of that, I thought you know America, I don't have a job. I need help also I wrote a letter to Ross Perot and I got a response back that they flew me down for an interview and I was hired higher work ready ass. He kept his word. pretty amazing in how long you do how long lunch work for a power Frida for about three? Three years and then

end up with another job, and will it will be the next job you got the from there to selling computer furniture and work for a company called right line. I work for them for about if years, and then I was hired away from that company by Greg Kayla's, who was my old boss at that time there and selling United Micrographics and he sold the business, and I decided to start my own. So I went into my own business of document imaging and doc, an image and where we stand document storm digitize him and is that still running today is: what's it called Delta Systems Delta systems? what to do with Delta force, just happens to be the name of the opening on that were in Kansas City and doing that in the late eighties, You do that and taking

jump start because as everything digital now and amazing, how much is still being printed presented today crazy that still running right now, Delta systems. How big is the company when there's about five of us were small, come in, but we we do. A lot of work were, and probably now maybe fifteen twenty three and we have resellers that sell our product. Then we do a lot in the healthcare but you name and end ass. Rumour problem- have a system installed in it. government. Are we just greatness? anybody's got paper money get rid of it. We can help

and you you know you mentioned earlier, your wife Marcia. When did you meet? I'm in what was that? What was the ark? The story arc there We were at the time, I was a member of the data processing Management Association in Kansas City, and we was on the board of directors Well that and we were down at a bar after a board meeting one night and martian her girlfriend walked in the place was packed and a couple of the guys that were on the board happened to get up leave just as they walked in. We had two open seats. Then we said come sit down here with us and they did, and so I met Marcia. That was in September of Let's see that would have been eighteen April. Eighty four,

and so we ended up getting married and had she had a little boy Aaron who is down in Texas and my daughter, would you bet here in Hana, and so were we got married in October, twentieth of nineteen? Eighty four and I started the business nineteen. Eighty nine. So there was, and what was the deal was there? Some story about scuba diving in here

get married underwater or something or engaged underwater. What was the story? We were getting paid ahead. We were in Hawaii and the place called Witch's brew, which isn't around to Nama, pay on the island of Oahu, and I have a friend over there that was a dental hygienist and she had some that read dental floss, so I wrapped the ring and that tied around it put it in a little remember one handed thirty five millimeter cases and put that data. My web suite we do swam out to the place called which is Bruen. We went down about thirty feet under and I stopped her and I said I pulled out and dangled then of course everything's three times bigger than you are yeah. Of course it did. Melted. When we got on the surface. He went from Point five currency before

and then you had a she had a son Harry and then your daughter, she ended up joining the army. Yes, she was so you got third generation army. It's true She actually shipped off to Afghanistan at one point correct right: she was a chemical officer. How large was that four year, whether stuff, I noticed her stuff, tough on me I just you know it's it's one thing! You know when you when you go, but it's when your daughter goes. You got a lot of other thoughts. Go onto them,

and now she's, very strong woman. She was with college College at Warrensburg and she was the first ROTC a female come the commander. She was the first female to go to jump school from there and the first one to go to Afghanistan so and now she's, a Deputy sheriff Orange Johnson, Kansas she's? Her of your job must be the daughter of a Sunday raider here can learn to slay, I guess They're are always worried about her, but I tried not to show my concerns, but it was when your daughters in harm's way you're you gotta, be a little crazy. Don't worry when my daughter's one of my daughter,

it goes to the grocery store, where I can't imagine her go to after God bless you, and you know that's the last life lesson that you have in the book if you say Life- lesson nine sacrificial living that scene, as we arrived at Pope AIR Force Base back in November. Nineteen. Seventy really made an impression on me not only the soldiers but also their wives, who are heroes these. Families are the type of people our world needs people who No, this life is not just about their own convenience. I am thankful for what these facts. These and also those of four responders in civilian life do for our country and for freedom around the world. That's Europe! that sort of you for your final life lesson there and, like I said, the stories in the book

we only covered a fraction of the book today, but it's packed full of more information did just it's very powerful and one one thing I wanted to cover which we we haven't really touched on yet, which is the impact of the raid right, because clearly go on this operation. The operation is to rescue pewter abuse and, as we ve covered, there was no pewter abuse there. it'd be easier. Think. Well, then that must be a failed mission, but that couldn't be further from the truth that there was a huge impact for the period of using and part of the section of the bone. Where you have other people stories, you have, a bunch of commentary from the sun. The people that were pows in Vietnam and we've had some of these heroes on this podcast incredible human beings. You have some

just read. Some of these highlights us air force. First, lieutenant J, H, Spike Nazareth, P, o from nineteen sixty six to nineteen. Seventy three says I was in Hanoi, six A few years after the raid, the guy, words were clearly shaken by what they heard. They were. Digging holes like mad. It was a real, showed, a watch at dawn, the envious we're still running around you for of a chinese fire drill, their digging foxholes right outside our cell got machine gun, set up all over the prison yard, they're digging in foxholes real deep. I can't believe all the Freaking Fox old first time, I'd seen the little bastard to work up a sweat Us Air force. First, lieutenant Joe Creca Poww, one thousand nine hundred and sixty six to nineteen. Seventy three: on the night of November 21st, one thousand nine hundred and seventy h a p o w in camp faith, a camp about ten miles south of San and the same distance west, of Hanoi, as as it didn't come out in

a few days later, what had happened within forty eight hours. We were all packed up place on the six by six trucks and ferried into honey. So this is of an empire. Direct impact of the re. They started consolidating these prisoners, which is a massive morale boost. He says, whereas Before we had been held in much smaller groups, one two, three four or even eight or ten. There were fifty of us all together in a room of about thirty five feet by seventy feet? New faces new story to tell and here and putting faces a fellow Americans. We only knew by main by name language classes were taught in. Germany is eight: they organised like a educational system once they were together. They add up I just the they started more productive language classes were taught german, spanish and even Russia. Math class were divided into three levels appropriately x, Y and Z. We all

who had courses in history, sociology, politics, religion, wine, selection. Yes, we had a wine tasting class meat, cutting and lumber selection. And I thought of a course in physics, automotive theory and practice as well as one on classical music themes and composers. We are still being held captive, but since the raid on San TAI prison camp by the incomparable Santee Raiders life was so much better hats off to all the raiders and those who supported the raid air Navy Marines and all those at their support bases on land at sea. Bravo other one captain, a: U S. Airforce captain Leon Li L S son, J P, W camp from nineteen sixty seven and nineteen seventy three, the night of November twenty eight and twenty first at camp faith, we pewter abuse were awakened in the middle of night hearing explosions, aircraft, SAM's launching and several

minutes of chaos. We could not have guessed that our old camp at Sante just a few miles up the road with entertaining guests on in guess for shore the next morning we saw fear in the eyes of the guards and turn keys and within forty eight hours we are loaded up and move back to honey for the four time ever we were in large groups. but we were not rescued by the raid in many ways our sanity and teamwork were saved. By that event, we will always be indebted to the raiders for what they did for us. U DOT S Navy, Lieutenant Junior grade, Porter, Halliburton, POW, one thousand nine hundred and sixty five to nineteen. Seventy three I can't face on November 21st we heard gunfire and jet noise from somewhere close by, but had no idea what was happening. The elation we felt, knowing that our government had tried to rescue us was the powerful, more morale booster imaginable? We are especially thankful to the guys of the sovereignty raiders, who advise

until for this mission and risked their lives to try and rescue us another one Us Navy, commander, Paul, Gallantry scientific pew, W camp He said the sovereignty raid itself was the most memorable moment of my captivity. We knew Uncle SAM, wouldn't forget about us, this Anti raid prove that. Us Air force. First lieutenant MIKE Burns, POW, one thousand nine hundred and sixty eight to nineteen. Seventy three. We were jubilant, because after so many years of waiting, something finally happened pilots like a make things happen and probably the worse. Probably, why the most people are doing nothing air force: Major D, W Wayne Waddell qw one, nineteen sixty seven and nineteen. Seventy three you guys made the biggest positive change in our sojourn in North Vietnam and we can never repay you for do not risk thanks.

and I'll read one more. This is US air force. First, lieutenant free, lucky, she'll, Chesley tape you W camp nineteen sixty sixteen nineteen, seventy three I was captured in nineteen sixty six and spent the next two thousand four hundred and ninety five days just short of seven years. His appeal w I was at Sante, we pray, for months, that God would move us to a better camp. He did on July Fourteenth. I guess a person needs to be careful what he prays for. He might get it we. In the trucks and went to a better camp which fulfilled our prayers. Then the lead came. We were just once more. We were moved to a better camp in Hanoi, where we had big rooms about forty eight of us in a room we can now teach other things such as languages, choir movie, we old movies, and we had programs on each Sunday and also for Christmas the fourth of July Marine Day, etc. When we got Packages- and that was not very often those who got

just shared them with those that received nothing I received any packages or letters for four years. Yes, for four years, my wife and family did not know if I was alive or dead, I am eternal we grateful to the house. things that the men, of the sovereignty raid did for our country and those incarcerated in Vietnam. Then came the fourth airline Allied command, their motto was returned with honour town standard yeah and and and, as I said, I was just hitting the highlights. I didn't even cover all these peeled abuse, the the impact that you all had conducting saw parisian which, by the way, have imagined that other than the opera. his was ivory coast. That was the name of the operation, but did you know

The impact that you all had was just incredible and amazing to be able to sit here and talk to you. Someone from a raid that I've studied and read about for many many years, and just an incredible opportunity to be able to sit here and talk to you and and and hear these stories, from you for everybody out there. The book this incredible piece of history and it's it's available on Kindle. If you're one of these digital people there's an audiobook and traditional print, yeah well, you're soft cover hardcover, but just now. The book go out and get it. We just covered a fraction of the story. Today. It's not it's an amazing amazing piece of history. Thank you. probably a good place to to wrap it up echo Charles. Do you have any questions? I've got nothing else done okay to meet you. Thank you

that's a rare occasion was going to ask about the wine tasting, but that wasn't your thing right now areas we have to ask her cap, Charlie Plummer. You will read bill reader about that one. Do we know what we learn in a wine tasting class? Do any of us know that probably different ways that wine are made to taste different ways and it When you talked to the p o w, we've talked to Pier W's the next time cause, I don't know, the amount of focus that they have on food is incredible. They go through everything they've ever eaten in their whole lives is literally, they have about menu, they'll prepare for a Christmas Eve, dinner menu for months and years. Think about what they're going to eat, I mean cause those guys were getting fed. You know these little little balls of rice with pies and chips, a wouldn't they be happy. If there was a bug in there because they'd get a little extra protein or kid yeah, that's

amazing. I know I do to have those guys back on. I gas will be it'll, be awesome to be able to ask them. You know what they remember about about this and how it impacted them, but amazing Sorry, Terry, you got any: thought you want to share. I know the team effort from the guys that supporting us. I mean when you think about how many people were involved in Asante Sunday raid, fifty six guy, we're on the ground, but we had I'd, say fifty six hundred helping us guys over on the ships. You know we had for their aircraft came from three different erp, our air pruning carriers, and I think it was six or seven paces and

There is a joint effort. I mean there are so many people involved in it. I was interested in. Is nobody knew what was going on there? Are our mental, I they were all compartmentalize colonel said, nor her colonel Simons. And Cheryl Manor had a letter from the joint Chiefs of staff. That said, if these guys need anything, give it to. questions ask and that's where they had carried to every face. They went. If there is no question, never was turned down on anything they requested, and- and you know so, that's how high in the Heschel on it went, but also how many people Lauren Ashline, had an impact and helped with Sante raid had some of them probably didn't even know they were doing it because

secrecy or you barely knew you're doing it until a few hours? Yeah? That's the part you don't buy an hour before we took off is when we knew where we were going so well that security was her own benefit. Absolutely so you know I've never questioned why they kept it. A secret and they did so. While I'm glad we can hear about the secret now and thank you for joining us altimeter my been real honor to be in the veterans out there? Thank you for your service to this great country I know we are roughly roads out there, but we also have been through a formal will. Survive reaches have to pick up her boots traps in Chagall. Well, you you! All have given us lessons learned and then thank you.

for your for your service and for your contribution to America for your contribution to so forces and really to special operations as a whole. As I said you, and your your brothers in arms that conducted this this. Operation, he made a huge impact, always like I said to the pows, but you huge impact to the morale of the country, and you made a huge impact to special operations and our trajectory in history. So thank you for coming on and thank you for everything that you and your fellow San TE raiders have done. We will not forget you. Thank you, Sir thank you and with that Terry Buckler has left the building.

Pretty awesome to be able to sit down and talk to him, echo that girl, you feel about things just had you feel about that whole. Scenario: not knowing where you're going to execute This massive mission- and you don't know where, until an hour before you go yeah, yeah, obviously kind of there's a lot to think about it To start with, were it's one of those things where it's almost like your mother? I would imagine that your mind just kind of goes to okay I'm here to essentially do our mission and so it kind of blocks. That, of course, can be wondering I would imagine I dunno, but of course you're imagining. What you're going to do, but either way it forces your mind to just be prepared for a kind of anything but is still very off putting to know. This is what I thought about, even more so the then that is for UNICEF, who started the his business,

afterwards and it's like digitize document, it's like oh bright, you didn't start like some tactical shooting course is not something like, but it just it's, the show where, like even tilt, wasn't like a order, full career by the way yeah. So just goes to show like how a military man kind of like a digital man is like but you know like he, he could be anybody and he can go and perform and do these crazy things hold the Guinness Book of World record kill and whatever you said, go to his quote: unquote normal life and just start printing or digitizing printed documents. Just like India Get to you, like man, this guy he's kicking my ass. You must be some sort of a. I don't know. struction, guy or maybe like some some roof fun

job as they are now he's an accountant, ok, Eddie, this paints that picture more. You know and there's something to be said for debts. The way veterans have done it for a long time I mean the World WAR, two veterans came home and they went and got jobs, doing, thanks. You know they went back to school. They did the g. I bill, like you, you'll have to your, not everyone's gonna come home and start a tactical shooting company. That's not there. not the normal thing. What may it seemed normal, as you know, when someone want a tactical shooting company that they were a veteran so you're like. Oh well, everyone. That's a veteran must start as technical shooting company, yet not necessarily true It feels that feels that way feels like it feels that way, because there's no one that went to college and studied you know studied economics and then started a tactical shooting company Right Pittsburgh. So you

you don't have that data in your head, so you well. Oh, this guy's got attacked should accompany. He was a veteran another guy has attacked or shooting company he's a veteran another. That so all veterans must our terrible should encompass know. A lot of veterans go and start well done. get processing companies and where I work I mean I work with a lot of companies where I work with veterans all the time that did we're talking about their business, we're talking about, they do and then occasionally, oh yeah. Well, I was in the army or oh, I was in the Marine corps and they have a totally separate job and they have a if a career and that's very normal abnormal it's actually more normal. It's more normal to do that, then it is to start it Shooting company law it's morning and even in this morning tea I don't mean to put too fine of a point on it, but of course tackles student. Okay,

but like any kind of adventurers- and this is broken just my experience like the bias, I came from my experience with meeting all these guys. We're gonna make a think doing all these inventors thing, you know where it's like you go through these crazy missions or the doll he's crazy military experiences. You come home and boom lit switch missions into some other critical. adventurous scenario, you know people, let us or us, but a lot of people do yeah yeah. I see that I think it's your awareness bias yeah, because when you become aware of something that sounds like that, you've got. What's that person's background oh, they were a veteran that makes sense. You don't look at an accountant and say whoa. I wonder one millimetre, Lee Branch they weren't when they probably were there's a decent chance that they were in the military, there's all kinds of veterans out there working I I mean I eat meat veterans all the time when I go and work with companies company Just so, you know

please have veteran programmes inside their company, so our work with a financial company and inside their financial company. They have like a veterans group and that's it- can we spend fifteen minutes doing QA with you and I go with who and they go all. We have a veterans group. We have you know of our two, thousand employees. We have two hundred and seventy four veterans, and we we sell ensure- and are we menu actual widgets or whatever, but they have a bunch of veterans that work there and that's every I mean when I work with big tech companies. They have veterans. When I work with financial companies, they have construction companies that everyone's got veterans. It's just stands out your head. When someone owns a shooting company, because you think it's cool, so it's normal for a veteran to come home and do what they're going to do. That's that's the way the world works, but and this is a good example- did the interesting thing about his career was just It's almost like this guy was in the NFL for

one season, and he in play any games except the Superbowl right. Like that's the kind of incredible and then he and then that was it, he retired after the Super bowl one game and went out. There won the championship and and then carried on with the rest of his life. Did three years yeah three years like and doing that, such a high profile mission probably one of the most well the most high profile mission for operations at that time. It's amazing! So Good stuff awesome to be able talk with him- and this is a hugely influential mission, for operations. We appreciate you support in us by the way out there if you I support us and you want to support yourself, get go to nobody can get some of these beverages by the way freakin

not get a lot of sleep last night got got stuck in my in my a roller coaster of brain fog, it is which is not. I can't stand it. You know, I can't stand it. I, though here's what was a bummer was I had bad sleeping night before and I was like, oh, I had a good workout and I thought I'm going to be sleep like a baby and I'm going to bed early. Like you know, nine thirty, I'm getting ready to go to sleep. I'm thinking all this going to be great, I'm going to feel great. I went to bed about three, no one thousand and ten I'm laying in bed in the darkness and the eyes are shifting back and forth. You count the walls and thinking about this and about that thinking about this and thinking about that thing about this, so that and until one o'clock in the morning wait, twenty one that happens then, okay, so this cuz, that happens. That's a real thing where the that kind of thing. Thinking about one or two things over and over and over and over again described this this If you'll have you,

Ben to Disney land. Now, ok, There's a ride there. It's called space mountain in a in space mountain you're on a rollercoaster, but you can't see very much in front of you. It's in the dark, basically so you're suddenly you're going in one direction, then you'd go in a different direction to go in a different direction. So that's what my mind is like I'm on. I'm on a roller coaster dark, but I just keep sea like a new idea, comes up in another new idea, new idea than another new idea, and it just now. stop, and maybe sometimes it does circle back to the original idea, which distorts the whole process again. But I am getting I probably slept two and a half hours last night which which socks I wanted to sleep more. But here I am too period so- and I drank this- is I normally don't have to goes in? podcast, but I did so You may need some clean energy in your life,

need to have necessarily some jittery energy. You don't need to have you need to have sugar intake? You need to give yourself type two diabetes. Get yourself a girl. Alpha go geography. Wacom get yourself some more going to go home and have milk by the way cause I haven't, eaten yet cause I fasted yet so we're feeling that yeah fresh ass, it is before us, but if, if you're lifting weights or Search, I did lift this morning who, by the way bad work out not a great work out. Like I mean I borderline? Hey am I going to? the benefit from this workout right now, finally ass. So how many days of like shitty sleep? Do you have to go through the actually get about because you got one Laid junk sleeping still get a sick worker- I I don't know, I know, but I will get sleep tonight, that the nice refer me two days. If I got the second day, that's leaps are we're not Work at my or not even do it, he had left it.

What I kind of, if I, if I go into it, and It kind of like a little bit of anger going I'm pissed, then I might get Jackson more still, but has did a week. Work. but you do. You are any of your work because it's the kind of work us but are any of your workouts like Basten, for lack of better a body buildings there, ok J. I put it this way than and tell me if, if this applies to your work, also you so if I do, I don't know chess Monday, where and then I don't feel the plump and I'm tired. That is, There's something wrong with me: physically, where they Aiden if we didn't eat enough in the hydrator whatever, but if you don't get the pump, that's a big indicator and then there's other stuff works like you just feel weak. just not into it mentally all this that there's other other factors

do you have any work out where it's like year? You feel less physical, like pomp verses, if you dont, as I say, a kind of feel out on a lot of work out, you know yelling, it's. You feel depths of your report, but muscle ups to like, when you get down with Muslims, to feel like kind of jack to all the way around for yeah, so Jason Gardner said the other day that she takes. One discipline go pill in the morning. I haven't tried it yet, but it seems like a good move get a little a little kicker. If I haven't tried it yet I I have them before I'm like going to speak, and I don't want to have a ladder filled with liquid distracting But you can feel those next, they feel those things for real, so there you want some more. If you want to join warfare, you were krill oil, go to talk with you about coming to get that you can get the drinks at Wawa by the way, we're moving to some other convenience stores right now, also some other some other

Big NEWS coming on the front for Jocko fuel when shopping, get it there as well, so check it out. Jocko fuel dot, com, Stewart. What else? Also origin, USA, Yep American manufactured goods durable goods as it were. I didn't know what that meant by the way. Are you dense, like clothes, work, clothes, pants shoes that can Well, the new hunting line thing. When is that going down cause? They look. Do I hunt you know, that's debatable, probably not going to well either way, can be used for other stuff. I will have a hunting line this summer late summer to be As for the hunting season in September, attempting so Well, there's there's other one hundred, but the the hunting season we're aiming for is that September,

hunting season so yet we're coming. Is there different hunting seasons for different places, different places, different animals weapons, so a whole bunch of things and go in yes, different different animals, different weapons, different seasons a bunch of stuff to contend with and will be making stuff for all of it. We're very event you're working with some great people. work with campaigns which is awesome been here. Just a machine. So it's it's that guy is possessed and obsessed with hunting, and so it's great: to have him giving guidance on making the gear exactly as it should be, made no compromise hey, it has to be able to perform if you're going to keep up with campaigns in the woods like that clothing has

public with campaigns that clothing is thinking to itself all I'm going to be put the ringer yeah, so Yes we're talking about. We have the highest possible standard, yeah like as place to actual hunted, because this phase when I'm lookin of that thing, I'm pretty much only concerned about parts can look, for when I'm doing whatever I can be doing with it, but yeah, they make that make sense campaigns. I recently connected with them on online too line to you. Go got a new friend, yep hell, yeah, hell yeah USA dot com, if you wanna check some of that stuff out also digital stuff, oh yeah, by the way, of course, GG stuff all made in America Big deal that says deal main and North Carolina were were making it believable bringing it back. Also, the original chocolate stored, Jaco store dot com, that's where you can get your clinical freedom, shirts and hats and March. It's quality is not just

not just my daughter places that stuff! You know it's weird nowadays well, let's face it MIKE, in their friends, I'm sure it's you know most kids were Their terminology is like you know. Merch is like. Obviously we know what that means. It's short for merchandise, which merchandise is a specific thing, so we know the translation, they don't even know their merch merch. That's the official word. You know my daughters speak in a kind of their own language with, and I went and saw one of my daughters up at my middle daughter up at college and got to listen to her and her friends and they have their. word their own language and it's pretty funny to listen to all at source. is, is suspect, which is just like right. So we know that we know Sus like

What kind of sauce that would be? Okay, obviously that grommets fish is also like. Oh that's, a suspect situation, but those things can be sauce but suspect is a slang term derived from suspicious right because suspect, as Word is a person, but you can also old fat that chair is suspect. Whether it's going to you and say suspicious, you say that thing is suspect. suspicious. If I'd say that an hour, you could say that I'm pretty sure suspect is now guess, we'll have to go, It's not the active. I know you're english major We want to revisit that. Here's, my hypothesis, suspicion. this- is the adjective suspect, is the noun sauce is like go both ways if amalgam of the whole deal alright Slayer Whole English, Literature understanding is us not this time either way: jackals started outcomes. We can get all this murder

yeah, but it's more than just March. It's like good. It's quality, it's like well, it's stuff, you supposed to actually wear, and it's it's also. You know you know it's part of the game. It's part of, like you, know, If you in the game is part of the world, yeah. It's part of the game, part of being in the game, but I remember when we first kind of had the podcast, I would say that call how'd you get into the game, then people would say. Maybe I need to bring it back how'd you get in the game and they've hired you on Rogan. You know I heard you on TIM, Ferriss or whatever you know how to get in the game. My uncle told me, whatever real! So there you go if you want to get in the game, jointly dot com and represent also said If you haven't already leave a review, any Costco's subscribe to a bunch, not a bunch but other podcast, well that we're doing, if we don't know which one Dr Unravelling Window Cooper, we're getting kind of crazy, sometimes on those

it kind of crazy with d dot c, that's how you go well. This has got a long trajectory of thought. I understand were trying to explain that to people if Dcs got a long trajectory of fought he's he's going to make his case over an extended. Period of time. If you hear him say something and when I say say something when you hear Darryl Cooper say something for three hours: he's only represent you. That's like the warm up for him. You gotta, keep loosening so keep listening to that. And then you'll see that there's probably a more balanced overall picture, but sometimes seems a little bit you gotta take gotta get Alyssa Deasey. You listen to the map, so check out, check it out. Jacqueline traveling, raveling, grounded podcast warrior kid. Podcast got the Jocko underground procedures they're juggling around dot com. If you wanna support freedom of speech, you you got to kind of pay attention that right now we know we got you on mosque. Just a chunk of twitter

we that's a positive sign of the world yeah, maybe bought it to maybe influence more freedom of speech I that's the concept right cause, that's what kind of he's about. That and putting rockets into space and make an electric electrical cars strip Main America, so there, you go that's a around dot com. You you'll help us out. There got the Youtube Channel check out psychological warfare out Flipside Canvas Dakota Meyer, Dakota Meyer. We get get. He just went to Ukraine by the way. Whatever is Dakota Meyer he's a medal of honor recipient has talked to him. Yesterday is like I just got back a buck. Oh, how was Ukraine he was in kief right dude. I mean just getting after it. So. If you want to help support Dakota Meyer in all of his madness go to fix, I came as Darksome Bison something go to hang on your wall. That's where you should do. In my opinion, got a bunch of books together, who will go into San, take p, o w camp. That's what we covered to date

at fraction of today, Terry Butler check that out written a bunch of books too. If you want to get some more of the She. Ideas that I speak of you can check out any the books that I wrote you can check out we, a leadership consultant She called a salon front at myphone dot com. If you want to come check some of that out. We have. We have an online academy we're human beings that have to interact with other human beings go to extreme ownership, dot com, you can get got a question for me, come and ask me you can ask me on a zoom call, I'm there. You can just ask me your question about your boss, your employee, about your girlfriend about your boyfriend, about your kid about your jitsu tournament. What what have you asked me? We want, here, your questions go to extreme ownership, Doc Compt take we had of courses to take. About how to utilize the dichotomy of leadership.

but how to utilise cover, move lots of important things: extreme ownership, doc If you want to help service members active and retired, don't how about their families golden our families check out Mark Lee's, Ma Mama Lee. She the charity organization, it's a wonderful thing that helps out in incredible ways: Jonah Donor We want to get involved, go to America's mighty warriors dot org. You can also check out heroes. and horses dot com, Think, who I think you mentioned a few minutes ago. Could you like what was my calf ain't going to do when he gets done with his time in the seal teams, probably can do some bad ass. Equivalent, listen so here is north is dark object out as far as echo, and I go with both on her on Twitter, on the grammar on Facebook. We're we're possibly

pull you into the algorithm, but we don't want you to get pulled into the algorithm. We want you cut away from y'all, grow them back. Adequate Charles magic, a willing. You can also check out Terry Buckler he's got a facebook page. If you want to check out his facebook page see what he's up to Facebook at Terry Buckler, and thank you once again to Terry Buckler for coming on for sharing his experiences and thanks to Terry and the rest of the south. T raiders, mighty special, versus green berets and the other support personnel. The pilots, the aircrew that took the risks to attempt to rescue our fellow server and and thanks all the military personnel out there right now who willing to take risk to protests and secure freedom around the world, and thanks for the work done by our

police? Is Mon Fire There's paramedics e M tease dispatch, The correctional officers, border patrol secret service and all first responders who sacrifice to protect and secure us and our way of life here at home and to everyone out there remember some of the key lessons from Terry Buckler today: add humor to your life, especially in tough situations, be excellent in everything you do always train and improve, be patient, but know when to be aggressive, don't be a complainer don't be indispensable: beef, thankful for those who sacrifice for our freedom and be prepared for death, make sure

The day that you meet your maker isn't the first time you've been introduced because, if you're prepared for death, you are free to live life fearlessly? And that is a good plan, so go out there and get out and until next time, the zero then Jacko out.