« Jocko Podcast

382: Into The Heart of Darkness. Fighting Che Guevara's Communist Insurgents in the Congo. w/ SEAL Jim Hawes

2023-04-19 | 🔗

Cold War Navy SEAL.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This is jocker podcast number three. Eighty two with echo trials and me juggle willing good evening act immediately, The congo's recent independence from belgium had trigger triggered a secession crisis by one, of the countries most mineral, rich and wealthy provinces. It led to an opening for the soviet bloc exploit rebellions among local tribal factions the? U s saw the country as a strategic geopolitical necessity against communism, which meant the congo was turning into a superpower. Battleground the? U s feared that losing influence in the congo was the next step to losing africa, the cia, had sent me to the congo to conduct. To clandestine operation under as deep cover as possible, while still enabling and sustaining the conduct, were successful mission. There
suits in washington recognize that the communist rebels needed to be contained the strategy was to cut off their supply lines, and strangle their resource base, which would require battle, tested and see worthy hands and the world could not know. We were responsible We were holding back the line on insurgent violent communism. It the boiling years of the cold war and ask worker was becoming a hotbed of potential dominoes. That might fall the wrong way if we didn't pay attention and, as all eyes were focused on that other communist battleground in southeast asia. The government, wanted to keep africa involvement as quiet as possible and ensure but no one could find our fingerprints on this up. Consequently, The most important elements in my congo mission was to- for the ass of the: u s: government they
did a guy who had the knowledge and covert experience to make this successful play the cia had determined that I was that guy that right there's an excerpt from a book which is called cold war, navy seal, it's real by james, Jim Hawse, who has twenty six year old seal, lieutenant and bill and commanding a small navy in the congo a small navy that help defeat. Communism in that country, including the communist icon, shea governor, but it's not only didn't his career, he said with the. U s: surface navy was involved in the gulf of tonkin incident workers in vietnam and has worked and lived around the world and it's an honor to have him with us. Here tonight to share his
breaches and lessons learnt Jim very join us. Thank you I should be here always funded talk to young sir. those who are interested in ancient history as well. It's very. It's always nice to be called the young still have been retired for ten years, and I'm fifty one years old. So I appreciate it, but I guess everything is perspective. Treasure yeah! No doubt I always look at younger guys. I'd trade with them in a heartbeat thanks for coming down, and I guess this is a lot of stuff to cover jump into it. Let's talk about, you know you grown up, so you were born in global, but you didn't grow up there right oklahoma, then no, the pen, addled texas, during the second world war. My dad was the pacific battleships. Sailor, to wit, what you were. You born thirty, nine, ok and so do you remember? What do you mean about the second world war. If anything, oh well, I remember my general macarthur uniform
I remember my father's setting me up. A bracelet made out a pact plexiglas. From a japanese kamikaze that hit their ship even using damage. Control I remember the first time I saw him which was after he had been away for three years, and I call I didn't know what he looked like All I knew there was a guys stand there and a sailor uniform, and he had to be the guy, and I set the world record in broad jump being into his arms and remember that very well. If so, and then, of course I remember the end, an older what years did come home? He came home thirty six? What year did he leave of forty two, so you just didn't remember the beginning, and then your grown up there,
your listenin to the news argus radiant newspapers, your mom told you what's going on well,. yeah. I would at whatever I knew or knew from my mother right and, of course, the lawyer you to add some radio butter mostly was it was from all here- and this was while you were in texas. Is this where we were in the panel, the texas yahoo Ever really, my mother was the class war war to what they call among them the the river rosier, the riveter acceptor or was it was in of synthetic rubber plant and outside of border texas and because it too taken over the taken all the rubber in the world. So philip sixty six built up built so bitter diane plan. Synthetic river plant.
and every morning we'd get picked up on a bus in borger and not get dropped off at what today would call a daycare center and she would go make sense out of rubber pick me up and we'd go home. That was, that is my first year great school. You know they weren't building classrooms. They were built in houses, so we didn't live great, fifty five years later. We have say this we're up. Fifty five years later, she apologize this to me for the way we had to live during this time, because it wasn't, it wasn't good But of course I didn't notice it knew so. My mother, soi kids, are in islam since we were together in. We didn't pay attention. Anything else, but it bother all those years she anyway and yeah. So, How is your dad when he came home? How is his hearing?
I always think about those world war, two guys with the guns firing well and they yell by me. Sixteen inch guns on that shift and in damage control at all. He didn't talk about. It wanted to show one time about one of those coma causes, You said there were twenty three guys and damage country. In twenty one got wounded, use one that did one of the two You never really talked much about it and, of course, in retrospect I didn't ask all the things I should have included a vast. Ah, but you know I'd never He was fine. He was like all his skills. He was ready to get back at it and be with his family sports family. whatever, and what are you? What are you doing for eleven? When I got back well, you did a lot of things. He he got it.
He got a job in wisconsin when he got back, and so we got on a train in winter wisconsin to join him little town called beaver, damn population density, and he worked for the local lumber company and he ran Cement bought plant and he was involved in home building. And he was always he was always in sales type stuff. He had quite an outgoing personality and yeah, so we were there for the next ten years or so, and I went to a there's, a local private school called royal academy, which is the oldest coeducational private school in the country. you're, not gonna scholarship there, which changed my life was beaver. Damn wasn't exactly the launching pad for college, in universities around the area and in my head
The headmaster was a guy named Marie patterson, who is the guy who built the milwaukee bucks and houston rockets. Hell of a guy had been an all american basketball player at the university of wisconsin in early forties, a huge influence on great man, so that was that was look No? No! I was look and then we're. We move back to texas when I was sir going into my senior three years. A high school I'd be fifty six for you. just grown up in the like one of the most on ec periods in american history, no question and did you I mean a is everything everything was possible. Everything was possible and, of course that's the my parents were you can do anything you want to do, go, get em
Were you playing sports in high school, oh yeah, which apply here. I played football, basketball, tracking tennis and the music coming. You got Elvis like it's just an iconic time that that I remember when Elvis was the first to no ed Sullivan sir tv show we are. That was big deal. I think that was some. Fifty six maybe use bring a fifty seven. I gave river but anyway so here at this time: are you thinking as your grown up you thinking about joining the military? Will everybody did he had had a rick service requirement. So I'll, just doggie always assumed as you do that, and I I Having seen no having she would mark richard marking the frogmen likes so many other ago. I said that's for me. and on, but I we know how these terrible eyes saw ahead.
but I also knew some. I was gonna. Do it just never visionary dogma, and you're going to college right after yes go here anyway, the college expert, again you're you're, like in the most prime, all the worse, the worse for you Where a lot worse for years, no fun, I had no money, no fun. I was I didn't know what I want to do except get out and go to see us europe's voice of four years wasted timeline I should have gone in the military right out of high school and then gone back to college, I will I, but I make I've made that recommendation to a lot of kids over the years you do when you're eighteen years old, you're not ready to go to college. You want four more years of sitting in a classroom, yeah yeah. So no that was Well, I was so good there. I started. I spent my first four weeks, a college at the taxes girlfriend was concerned. I was
walk on a darrell royal's first year at the university of texas, and you know he was an icon coach football coach in texas center. Yes, around the world on the country and dumb is so in order roylance first year when texts whose coming off the floor or not. western hundred and fifty five one hundred and thirty five pound quarterback who couldn't see and was this girlfriend in was guys so again more. From my first weekend in college, my mother's all excited for scottish or college. Of course, wait and do I said well, I'm going to wisconsin Needless to say, it caused some paden discontented the table and are on average my dad my side and I remember when he drove me to the bus station the next morning to get back to ask them yet throw my stuff, a box and you're on a train. He said
what you know that for some, your mother ever went to bed mad and woke woke up mad, so don't screw up well, of course I did. But then I spooked that I spent the rest of that year at a really good place called lawrence Nicole lawrence university, Scott lawrence college, then in appleton, was johnson, and then I was so ashamed of myself by the end of that year. I said this is just crazy and will start all over from forget sports. I gotta I gotta do some pr right So what does Joe was so it does seem. You There was a gain, their name mac, atoms, and I said dean I got no money and am academic probation, but I said: does the the Wars will give me a recommendation and help me get some jobs. I liked you go to school here. He said fine up
So is the biggest a couple, a jobs agenda, and so I finish when excited basically for years and three years at us in you and you just worked hard to halt the arduous work. Tarag jobs- and I am in I had I just add extra load of class. But he came a matter of pride diminish four years, which is stupid because all admit was my crate my offered very good, sir. can understand what I said in my son was non college son. You can come with any problem. Any concern. You got you because you can't. I can't even say that I didn't make yeah a digit. So at what point did you start applying? Do you have to have? Did you have to apply for OSI as applied to see us? I did it during my senior year and and so I gradually earthen mayor, You know what goes on and on What year resist nineteen sixty three legged sixty one nineteen
sixty warrior, while so very don't see us cause a christmas, etc. In February nineteen sixty two and your father job was as a surface warfare, offs right, wheel, the owner affording refrigerator it was, yes, vega, a fifty nine who visited briefer and I was damaged- concerns a literal refrigeration. Europe than the dollar undersea replenish replacements, hell of a captain, really good captain, so that was really good. It was good, it was good experience. I became an ordeal officer, the duck underway etc, is not exactly like the an officer, duggar, destroyer information, but it's called into. Candide stephen thunder and so one that yeah, so I had done I,
myself, some contact lenses with my first paycheck Carlos Zenos. Yes, so had my contact lens, contact lenses at the time were brand new technique would you totalling they weren't in the forms they didn't have anything about anything about the consequences in the navy forms so You got a little section in your book about this. I think it I thought was pretty young. That's pretty good, you stay here. I could applying to become a frog. Man are you. You said that because you saw that frogman, what did your dad if you are primarily even nobody, legendary say, but my eyesight was enough to keep me out of the seals altogether to enter the navy and ten after candid school to become an on restricted line officer. I needed a medical waiver. My eyesight was twenty two hundred the worst allowable under the required medical standards, if correct double too, twenty twenty with eyeglasses, so I purchased
contact lenses with my first navy paycheck? I was fully aware that my eyesight, my prevent me from even entering the frogman training. I went to you, your crews your crew skirt naval base hospital and timed my exam to occur during the lunch period. There was corpsman striker american training, our duty in the unit? I knew his minimal medical experience would yield the least resistance to my desired result. I common? I need to get back the ship. Can I read the chart to complete this exam with conch lenses in. I read the chart and passed with excellent, when he fifteen fidget theirs. nothing on any of the forms that question the contact, lenses or anything related since the forms had not kept pace with the technology. My application, that sailed through channels and I got immediate orders to report to underwater demolition team replacement training classes. Twenty nine comments in january. Second, nineteen sixty three- I was in
of course, in terrible terrible shape because I just got off the ship and when he is to stop for christmas about folks and went east and- and you're the moral dilemma that I had was he officers carry their medical records and I looked at my medical jacket and sure zeller was. My fifth There are small waiver, the last page in them in the jacket and so the choir. You too, I dare I turned out, or did I leave it in one week in new york, you got an oath, so I thought, see if god, once maybe a frogmen circle, report in over there and they had a first class diving corpsman, not not not a frog first class. I in corpsman on duty, and he was right- leaving the medical. Soon. You will use your squad transpose the butter
then he handed him your medical jacket and he starts going leafing through it and he flicks two pages. And the last page with the the the waiver on it stuck to the previous page. So he didn't see it. So I thought would be a really corset. I'm lookin everybody. Through my contact lenses patent. So we started the training and we're down to we're gonna. Do we just finished camp picket, which was about half way through? and so you see you're going through what They used to call you d replacement training, which is now called buds and you're going through class. Twenty nine and this is on the east coast. Because the aurora, while they ran your training on its coasts and west coast you're on the Schools which is in virginia right, it is january. It was, snowiest
after they had had in recorded history? Am I tell you something that you will understand this Evan van instructor? The instruct the days leading up to hell week were pretty nice. was pretty nice, whether in the instructors kept syn. It always snows for her. We we go to bed on on. We go to bed on sunday evening in the weather's, not back at you know after midnight are all you know at all, cuts loose? We fall out of their stomachs all over ourselves and we all down in the snow, you can imagine the psychological, if that these wow these instructors of they do magic, and that was the star was started, it was called visas none
but you weren't really physically prepared. You been on a ship, a new of I knew. I you know about your training, nothing no go the movie, I know anything about it except it was gonna, hurt a lot I met some guys adoptions club and in your cusco who knew something about it and they were telling me wherever drinks, and they were telling me about it, and I thought I should august guess, really is bernard, but why did you do is do it every day, how long was it? Was it six months long, the base the year it will yeah six months. It was there. Was there anything that really challenged? You did you hard time like where you got in the water I was, I was is good runner scar on the obstacle course.
I was good in the water in the pool, but when we got into that into the ocean with those heavy duck feed on my skinny little legs and that that was painful you're in rosy roads furrow, for for training and were three miles swimmer swim going around the island new in I got three months when I got more than six feet away from my swim: buddy sullen, next one, which was just five miles. Whatever was little fuzzy but it was a long way. They put a three inch cause or between tied me to do my swim body. So was dragging that we were dragging that thing through the entire swim crime. like a baby or my face, may ask I mean really real paper, but it is finished
The people were ready. We stop in your course when you swing around in the daytime, going the wrong way or you remember, being in in you, try to get into the into the corral to break it up, but you're going to get coral and get get cut to pieces. I remember stroke stroke and looking up there was a little house shudder something up on this point in the sullen, whereas close in the corals wooing get stroke shook Places staying exactly the same yeah we are, we did our five and a half nautical mile swim just, In corn otto just down and back- and I remember you- know- you're like looking at whatever some
mark or on the beach any just not move. This is another hoard. Anyone on the language law, you pick it up. The current you're gonna wind, you figure swim bodies. I know it's just going to be a long, arduous time and by this time, by this time the east- actors found out that I was will be coming back to be their boss, so that that place because they found out about your very young scientists through that oh yeah silly found out about maya. So what we finished him. Picket were half way through the training and are you called into the inward down to the hard cores bremer sword. Cores you know- and I saw your call- the instructors hut and the funniest skier was in the seal teams came of scapes mina beheld got any system This was only fingers and holding up lou. Let go
he said. Do you see back there and officers country or go back? I'm due. Face to face with a guy whose job I'm suddenly have? any says. Ok, here's what you do the absolute truth- that's all I can do is shaken. I'm telling the story shaking his head and I he said well doing. I be eligible for a court martial I said I don't think so, sir. I didn't say anything and I didn't sign anything. I said. Well, I dunno what's going to happen, but you gotta get over and get to the ophthalmology department right now get an exam, so I've already off the merger department. The doctor says I'm glad the meat you euro, medical phenomenon, you He got from twenty two hundred twenty two fifteen in less than a year do bureau medicine wants to know about you, civil its. well actually the way doc
and he said well. We got you in east, I said I'm. I got contact winters in them. He said well, guy and he said. Well, I don't know what I can do about that and I said well doc. You gotta do something. That's not good enough. You gotta just me, civil, I'm, giving exam, so we exam sure enough, I'm twenty fifteen, they said well, I want to say you're. Twenty, your gear, twenty two hundred doc, I say something you just gotta somebody said I'd, say you extremely well adapted for contact lenses say it so he said it so I go back to drain and mr some revolutions enforcing structures are unhappy about that Nobody knows what my status is going to be or whatever. So I get called over the senior miracle of certain lack fleet and I'd seen this guy watch and training you like to come, come watch during water, oh, I get call him to see him
again. Ramrod straight tension turned hopkins. His report is directed sir Burma. It just looks at me and I He just looked at me like he was looking in my soul, and finally, I couldn't stand any longer. I knew this was it. This is the court last resort, so I just from them tip of my toes. intensity is came oddness general, I'm sorry first in my class right now? So don't tell me, I'm not physically qualified, and he he just look he's just kept. Looking at me finally said: okay, recommend waiver furlano. and been done before so I was always grateful to you. You got a guy like that on take a situation on its merits, rather than just go by the young I was. I was good navy anyway, so
I hope that wasn't the end of it, though, because in those days you know the navy, wouldn't let the seals do their own training, because you know it's the seals. Were you the frogs. www orphans of any unwanted orphans, and so I get in its source, run by the naval amphibious school, which is run by a captain, forced ripe so. I called over to the captain's office and was and is a regular free guy yeah? Oh yeah, I saw your ring was report is directed sir said. Ok, would you do so on the stories shaking his head Is that why have I, a recommendation here for a waiver that I can forward either approved or disapprove. How would you like come back as instructor said cap love to do that after of operator couple years I loved compaction structure. So don't think understood me and
I got a waiver you're looking forward either approved or disapproved. How would you like to come back as instructor said? I'd love a Kevin yeah, so the e board came down. I went to jump school, you don't have to be able to seated to jump as you know, we're done, or water swim school and the diving medical officer? There was it. Allow me to to complete, don't waters when school, because I had contact with successive doc. I set out and her myself reveals? I went into a chamber, went down to her feet with my contact lenses and doesn't doesn't matter. Will you do it so go to see the excellent susan ex frock said. Don't worry, Jim by the time of a will cross away. It. The time to act on a thought. You you'll be finished the training. So soon which were contact lenses all time. Oliver and they never like fell out or one did one time and no factor
two curious. Actually it was what we were doing around the world and in Hell we anais in a branch just picked it right out, guy they had. The winds are well. Those got my ball. You just picked rode up, but did moran and others What's so it around the world. In hell week we had the so exercise where we we took the boats. We too, through all canals. We went through all kinds of mud flats, all kinds of whatever stop round the world. He ended up, as I recall it back in the bay sadly, under their whatever it took most of the nine year coronado, what they do is they they launch you into the bay side to the core of corn ato and you you carry the boats over there go through the mud than you launch and then paddle all the way around corners, all the way back out the channel out into the ocean and then back and you come into the beach, but it takes like like sex. Than ours.
And the people are falling asleep and it's usually pretty late. I mean it's, maybe two or three days in a week and it's a little bit of up it's a little. like you get time away from the instructors elsewhere do so people are like fallen asleep in a book It's just a law, I really can't almost carry number. I only remember bits and pieces of news like you, you reminds so far out a gear by this point, people are hallucinating, staff had seen staff and problems the best time to lose. Your contact were not aware the suit so that you come back. So eugene I graduate from training and then as an instructor. So then I have is so we're done in puerto rico. During the you know, in in during these long swims and all that stuff and and the instructors find out a course. They always always find out,
and master chief tom place, who is one of the old legends, and he said to me, Mr Hawes, I'm going to make make it my mission To make sure you deserve to be my boss so I had his personal it. So you asked you about. Suicide is personal identity in now and porter rico, and beyond those long swims in my my legs would be like rub. in blaze beyond my ass you. So I got a lot better at about. I was never really never really. One of the top guys in the water,
were you were those unity, guys that were putting you through training, where some of those guys world war, two guys guys yeah. We had a guy named John parish who drove the one who drove the of the landing boats at iwo, Jima, two or more terroir terroir of we had a fabulous guy just died a few years ago to the gym cook. Who was Where do from? We had a family and we had a fabulous guy named gesture clean seas. Actually had him later, just your cleveland stevens, who gone to work for the agency and he was down at a base. I hadn't north carolina when I was doing some training for the agency down, and conducting some training for those with which MR and he was one of the guys whose body they used when they, together the navy diving tables the parliamentary chamber and take him down in his anymore, the woman, was his wife for
fifty years or whether she was was one of the nurses on the chamber, so they had taken down a start. Bring him upward free when it's done every star to go. You started a band written quickly taken back down again, oh alibi, hell of a guy was, as they gesture cleveland, stephen, the the guy that they be. Didn t know what to do. I don't I'm sure they have more than one. Do you use that still crazy, crazy about also do a trial and error aiming gonna. Do it so anyway, In the end, the benes lewinsky chiefs lewinsky was our was our chief instructor and he was world war. Two guy hell of a guy as you know, these guys treat me when I was reported in the new draft treaty tree. We like I've, been thirteen. May for twenty years. The best ever met There was a clear result- professional fabulous here
in the resolution comedy classes did you watch get put through too. what would you learn from watching classes get put through, especially cause? It was so fresh in your my. I sure learned that you can't tell anything about anybody that you can't see inside of weird thing: isn't it yeah and how to how you try to get a little better how to look inside, but it's pretty hard. You gotta, you gotta, put them under people under stress of one kind or another to find out what they're made of it's very bizarre. went down right after report, I went down to key west screen and get the screen people are run apply. I came back and said it's instructors said when I met the guy. It's gonna be honour. Man is next glass, last year is roger. You know that, Gunnar was first to quit, not the second, First to quit, will you can imagine?
after that I took from these guys, and that was what made you think he was going to be so awesome. He was just good, physically. Even after having just gone through it, I still undervalued the mental now toughness I had a friend he was a captain and he was very, very careful He's never recommended anybody see would say the things I'm never recommending anybody. Finally, this candidate came along officer and he spoke of different languages and he had all these assets and went to some ivy league school and he would this dispute. captain was very forward thinking in like a we need to start learning languages. I think he spoke in a like some cream The combination of languages like farsi in chinese summits are really good combination, so he finally breaks down and get this guy gets this category same thing. I do member- I didn't know about any that part.
I only knew that guy quit I was. I was in the office with this guy get the. Where are you kidding me? I've never recommended it, but again what is it then, the next class we had this officer really good physically top ivy league university spoke fluently. Spanish and portuguese had everything in the instructors recital these guys MR smith's can be undermine said no, I'm telling you this guy has has imposed his own limitations and we had some he's gonna quit. Ah ha ha yeah. What about so? And so we start. We start all week. Stay. I use up tumors were running on the beach in the afternoon. I do and MR smith, fine instructor, said Mister smith s instructor snake, you're gonna to be an ermine bought. Think you're gonna quit and I never instructor- ok will when you re. Let me know:
next tuesday, the next the next morning on next afternoon tuesday, and it's a beautiful day assume, MR smith, how you doing of fine instructor signal, Mr Smith, look at all those ships resizing out there in the bay. I said all the smart officers are sitting in the ward room drinking coffee. Why are you here? It can be a frog smith's judgment. Instructor? Ok! Well, I don't think you're. We really hope. Now. wednesday Psmith. I can see your drag. You sure you want to put up with this man you're, so smart and village jaded. What are you sure you want to do this? Yes instructor? I said I don't think so. Mistress But when you re just send me your home on thursday afternoon Thirdly, earthers how weak this is because we made it through forty days on thursday afternoon, a civil, MR smith. You re equip yes instructor
So how do you know We had another guy, you prior them name randy wise. He was at all. He was abused. Job happy also parachute. I've heard of him. Wonderful, guy, wonderful guy, He was in the same class, so that will work always worked on the officers. I didn't. I worked hard on the officers, and so I hurried up to randy on the same beach same says: urbano, are you doing? Mister was a fine instructor said to mister wise. What makes you think you're going to complete this training, you did it struck me as I loved him alone. We became great friends now? This is what white, so are we in nineteen sixty three right now we're in nineteen? Sixty three is so. What do you know about this
you'll teams verses go into a unique tt largest cities. Sitting in the journal. That's all I don't know. I don't know much about him. because, after all, remember only It basically was take the sector emissions of of the of the utilities to make them the primary mission of the seals inner body. Aren't you the same training, so there was no whose can like how do you go out is how does the navy get more appropriations got it, particularly in the aftermath of the of of gay thing for special warfare and so forth in the navy looked around as why Ben millions book is so instructive. Now he's just reform craig would end up. It's also, whether I don't believe there will be a navy early ever be another admiral charges soak up The regular armies got it really elevated, so calm will be diluted either. Can stems its culturally against end himself. They after they have to be bigger, me big, regular army. They can't help it and, to some extent,
the navy is that way, but less so thank god. Otherwise we wouldn't be run. We wouldn't have got to do what we did but I've read these. The cultures are such that they can't stand but look at the following? The marine corps fought before they finally finally came around because they had to there's too much pressure on he asked whether we interesting, like to have a little bit of a rotation going on for the. So called commander will, I think they did you see he continued I'm just sceptical, because I swim all all by. I never got to really work much of seals. I was always kind of book, a balloon ranger and and always we were there. Then everything was so politically sensitive are always talking these guys at headquarters. Gaza had gone, I think they're headquarters, because they're smarter than the guys in the field. If you were, if you're, if you're. As far as I am you'd, be here, you wouldn't be in the field. I mean look at vietnam,
What luke ordained guide work without you, man, you wouldn't get listen to a doctor. Jock richard sewage, the station that, during the debate, the dim coup a new here, talk to me said we told them don't get rid of him now we'll get nobody replace him get rid of any time, but don't do now intercourse scene of the. The glorious elite. determined otherwise would we have that for the next and we were there where there are five, five new governments in the next six months, all of which we were there, some of which turns demonstrations were targeting us and bug in with a white elephant. In indonesia, That was also another lesson I got for. For agitate for four crowd, manipulation in the in the communist agitation.
again a department how to control mobs we stood up there on the third floor is on his way floors and baghdad. After one of these changes of government and watching the inner they got in a crowd of people whip. Up and they were going to come in. We are carrying burnt and you are going to fire until it started coming up from the second floor? inward looking now on this mob and you see five guys. It was right out of this right out the manual five guys manipulating manipulate this crowd. So if you know what you're doing it's easy, because my mom's got in mind, I just need someone to give them a push in the right direction momentarily and they follow each other. Exactly so you get so so how long you do two classes you there as an instructor for two classes, or they are the how many classes they're doing a year at that time, like how long does that too? Okay, so you're there for bass. I wasn't there for the full second class, because bullet
how long was into you got orders to unity? Twenty one o rippling of course go to work. Anatomy lay so I went over how old is seeking, who is luther commander of charges of twenty one? As it said, mister wolf you, you need operators. I want to operate, get me a waiver. He says you're so heaps, separate, separate church of several jane it commands of jobs a boom. He got me. I got me, sir oars income, the orders. if the phone rings. It's captain lee at the naval, amphibious good cause, get your ass over here right yeah. So I wrote a reason: it's laws reach directive? Given you Frogs are always pulling this crap. We so we got a deal you're an instructor, I'm getting! These orders cancelled right now, which he picks up the phone and did four stripes two and a half strikes. Ah
but the waiver was on the books. That was the key. or to be an operational programme where it was on the books in that pave the way, then, four of winter, VOX call me from seal that pave the way for wood. Car barks call me from shielding too instead you wanna go to vietnam. I can't tell pointed ears cause I don't know. She has how soon be ready to go so yeah so the eu, so you this waiver in the books, which means, despite your eyesight, you're gonna, be able to go and operate. You get the ant orders until the unity, twenty one, and you got a little section about this in a book you say. Almost a year later I received a phone call from tom tar box seal team to exile. He was calling the kind of offer I've been waiting for I have your questions he said one: do you want to be assigned to vietnam on emissions so secret that it comes right straight out of secretary defence mcnamara's office and to how soon you be ready to go, I reply
Yes, sir, and twenty four hours There were very few officers available with my experience and tar box knew. I was more than ready to join an operating team. Captain we heard about it. He was infuriated with me all over again thinking I'd circumvented him in any agreement. We had made he summoned meters office yet again and after venting his fury, he picked up the phone to get my orders to vietnam cancelled a struggle behold in the surging joy, as I watch- His demeanor turn from imperious to obedient. He finally hung up and said: congratulations, lieutenant J G Hoss, whatever it is it so politically sensitive, come straight from sector mcnamara's office. Is there anything I can do to assist you author vietnam, for israel into the next day and had a cup of coffee with tar box in my life as a covert operator began with when I went to the twenty fifth ringing, which was not anything fancy like they do these days of,
in two thousand. It was in a bar in virginia beach. and I you know the name equal gallagher, Bob Gallagher, eagle eagle, get hungry after we like he's about to beat my ass he. So what are you doing here? Knows it miracles. I belong here and speak to tar box you got me cause the daddy does well accordingly, we up in a hurry, but- it was. It was almost dead, the shortest ignorance yielding to anybody in history. yeah, that's what I like. I like captain lead having to go from. You know, you're, not go into. Is there anything I can do to assist? But then again that's another good. That's to me! That's another kudo for the navy, because the guy said: okay jeez, whatever. Let me help more to the point.
You say hereafter detaching from thirteen to bound for vietnam. I stopped by to visit my parents and brother. By that time I was trained and fit fraud. Man, headed for war in the pursuit of my dreams. As I conclude the visit with my folks, my mother put her arms around my neck and said Jim. good care yourself. Please tell them not to send your body home if you get killed, I could not go through it twice. Her words were liberating to me. I knew it. For her to let me go, but I also understood and always had that she wouldn't try to determine. Maybe grow up ass. She did in the heart of the dust born. Is the wife of a world war two sailor on a battleship to be able to be that strong the goal of her to be encouraging of whatever I wanted to do yet saying Goodbye to me twice once as I depart for war and then again as a casualty wasn't I think she could do, but there were no guilt trips now whining shooting cry. She was completely supportive, out, a selfish gesture of any kind
Probably other request was just please right. I was ordered immediately to military assistance, command. Vietnam, special operations group naval advisory, detachment based in denying where I would spend the next year participating in the take over the sea ice operation. Thirty, four: a and its expansion and intensification under the department of defense. I wrote every week on Sunday night. It's not a good sign right there yeah, that's good! That's a good sign right there a desperate people have an easier nowadays with email go hand. I think email was a good thing, because you know You can call, or now nowadays guys can face time. Writer. New, and then that's cool, but its lost right
it's it's very interesting for me to go back. We didn't have that kind of communications. You cook, I beg. I would call my wife like once a week many once every two weeks. In fact we are bt of tony who is one of my friends and he he remembered he came into my office and he's looking over. My shoulder, I have an email from my wife, says something like I haven't heard from you in a month? Is everything ok what's wrong? You do it right now but but I think, that's cool, because now you can look back in say you can regional, be males, no young. We can re up like I know what was happening during the women look. What I'm writing. My wife, like, I hope, everything's. Okay, do you know and there's a lot of stuff going on an appointment, but it's interesting to to be able to review that. So you know he has a good thing about writing layers as opposed to just a phone call and So you end up with this mac resources in
You know you say under this authority and mac his direction? The military would take over our plan. Before a where a principle strategy included the establishment of the naval. advisory detachment and eighty, You ve got an eighty or legal aid point small boats to run harassing raids against north vietnamese installations, all ready for a maritime operations, were proved by president Johnson's national security adviser mic george Bundy. communicated directly to any de denying, with a copy to inform saigon. I mean this is micro management at the highest levels, and you can't believe it you going to visit. We go on you'll, hear yo your why I made the comment before about headquarters, mentality, while mcnamara was the worst and johnson those guys we're just absolutely horrible. Targeting was done in a vault at bogdan bogged down by day
bogged down with our surroundings, white elephant in fisheries, with the entire was secured offloading to place, including proficient aerial photography interpretation by an navy intel attending whose essential part of that makes a seal took part in the planning of the operations and conduct of the training of the rating teams, which were made up a south east navy personnel. I wasn't training officer and assistant operations officer to help on the operation. So you the only reason only way that could happen is the navy had no idea the navy was told, somebody with these qualifications. It was told about rank no job on nothing, because I got relieved by our Angela J g, I relieved by a full, lieutenant and lieutenant commander same job. So the only way I got the job was to jail is a judge. Does anybody know what it was all about and what years as this is now we actually for sixty four spring is sixty
you show up there. Actually say this is pretty interest, since there were no percent, no presidents, no manuals, no procedures for what we are doing, the learning was dramatic. We were only limited by imagination where we can make work. Our group, plausibly denial of clandestine operational needed to stay. That way we had to only avoid our own media but the international control commission, the icy acc, a group of three inspectors representing copy canada, poland in india, who were task with monitoring aggression in the region Port part of my mission was to avoid the acc, because the north sea enemies were protesting, our raids in trying to bring international public attention to our actions, while secretary of state dean rask repeatedly and publicly denied our existence. So what's what Optimal, like
What's goin on like what's a day local day in the wife, lieutenant j g hawse weight in this nineteen sixty four in vietnam, I was train officer, an assistant, lop source, so of with respect to training this. This detachment came up from seal to more, To actually do the train irish flynn. Far first admiral was the first to first. Oh, I see of that drain detachment that I met. and he was relieved by maynard wires. You know, I don't you ought to know. Guy you're gonna want peace ladys guarded happened. He's got history like crazy and he was a officer. and so they were. They were running the training of our up of our individual teams and we had its. I recall: six. Six individual teams of public composed of nomes not
mixed, could mix milk, youngs and and and vietnamese? and they were. We were had him isolated in camps, one of one mile, apart along china beach. So this is the same area that my Air later occupied after in a day was gone, and this was all taken over by sob saga. Seen see, They do not. They talk about marble mountain, their moral was the southern end, this complex, that's where I learned to repel and I didn't picture accorded, I learned to to freefall euros chiefs. Couple couple achieves got me: are you gotta helicopter? Instead, ok, here's what you do
well blah blah. We go up and she doesn't have to go through school in vietnam, which just a couple chief's throne, which is our join a beach right, yeah fifty third, exactly anyway, so Yes, we have these. Sixth, sixteen so long here, which would then go? Do they do the rate, in the north and I would, if I can, we really up temple quickly because we joyfully accelerated from what it had been it power twice a month, but not always a team, but always the boats. Could we got there? The navy had no small boats. I am not exaggerating: no small boats, So the only three boats we heard were the sweeps and they were brought there by the cia because they were really good, for there were really good boat
but the sea I mostly was doing junks get figured fishing junks, which they felt were more or less chance of being observed, and so they would modify fishing junks and send guys since in their teams up before we we took over than we had that, then we had the swift and but they did. None of could do the kind of harassment of the coastal installations which could be done with the nasty so to the navy's credit they bought. The best boats in the world from the regions, which are the nasty peachy boats anew, ninety five feet long. They made forty five knots, go all full all reversed, just like then nape high performance, nature, napier delta diesel engines, but you you couldn't even be in the engine room. They had such a wine, you know whatever and they were terrific boat and
and so those started going up to three times a month- and that was those were the boats set, were causing nea the irritations to paint I don't tend to be able to say how valuable what we it. Really was I I'm not sure anybody can if they said they could unlock shroud, believe them. We it it's reasonable to assume we tied up a lot of north vietnamese asses because we were painted there, but how actually destructive reworked sure couple times got really lucky ended some real real good stuff. One of those prior just prior to the gulf talking incident and following up that, one that was quite successful We owe it would. The boats were not to do harm matt and han may and her new, which were I
once sort of in the roads leading to the high The harbour report high foreign harbour was sacrosanct. Let me tell you how sacristan they were. Then. When I arrived in denying green lieutenant j g- and I said, ok, let's look at them- must enable its reading. For with the entail, and so there was two dredges poured a high flown If the, if they're out action, the porter high haiphong salts up in six weeks, This is easy. Let's go get those go, get the drudges. Oh no can't touch the judges never touched the dredges in tire war. Why is that no, I think it's criminal, but I don't know why it is because it was always are
I think it has to do with the with the the headquarters genius concept that which makin merge describes himself later on when he's trying to excuse Holly did all he did wrong by thinking that you We were going to impose increase our pressure incrementally to the point. Where hoped you men would say: ok, ouch were done, and so I think part of the income Little approach was to allow them to act. then you to have access to high flown harbour and we would impose the punishment elsewhere. Okay, I m- that's thinking- doesn't make instead logic. Doesn't it since to me, but I can't think of anything better because that's world so
stuff came in the chinese stuff came animists terrible. You know why I am a farmer, I wrote a book called me. charging tactics in that book. I write about something called the the it the decision making process, meaning hey. We take a little step in this direction, We see what the reason it's our and if it seems like we get good results, we go a little bit further net direction. If we see more good results, we go a bit further in that direction. If we see oh, that worked, we wanted to him. We make adjustments and it's the way I always made decisions. You know I always you know I don't me too, I don't need to make a big giant decision, wrote to make a little one, and I can make a little one make adjustments and then I started reading a lot about mcnamara. You know you get this idea of this incremental approach, I thinking myself like hold on we'll find was mcnamara. Maybe I would have been Thinking the same thing, I want to make these small steps. Why was mcnamara's?
incremental approach, why, It turned out so bad compared to what I did. My all career, which was this iterative approach, are basically the same thing and it didn't you me very long of thinking about it to realise why, because the key com honan of me, making a small decision is to pay attention to the feedback and make adjustments when it doesn't work you can see with mcnamara and Johnson is that we're getting feedback and they were just not paying attention to it. They weren't listening to it. They will just say: nope, go, keep going, keep going, keep going, keep going and they were paid attention, the feedback and they continue to take the same broach over and over again, and it never worked could agree. More consistent could not agree more. They d understand, will later still a will, and these guys such compromises cylinder stand. This is a way new, and you know I think, we're seeing that you know people asked me about the worn out. ukraine right now and to test a wills and that's the thing: when you go to war,
The only reason you're going to war. Is you don't know who has the Pronger will cause if you knew you wouldn't go. If you look at some want to go up, they're gonna go and there never gonna stop. Then you say hey. This is a good thing too agent, and so got the stronger will in vietnam in a we thought. That the battle of I drink like a. We killed a hundred a hundred. Detail, one we're gonna beat up air power can beat them we didn't realize that they didn't care if they lost one hundred and fifty then carefully lost one hundred. Fifty thousand, they didn't care if they lost a million. Well that statement right there applied to ukraine the simple arithmetic of vietnam, when westmoreland every day at four o clock, the infamous fork like follies, would talk about body counts, and so our strategy, which was no strategy but was the closest. I guess they had to a strategy, was attrition. and nobody ever stop to look at the simple arithmetic city, the birthright,
in Hanoi always succeeded the attrition rate in the south- surely an unlimited supply of manpower, the same in right now, the year the ukrainians brave as well, but if, if Putin's prepared sacrifices, all the russians that it takes, which all indicate since our he will. You're goin down they win, he'll kill, you will will will fight to the last ukraine a year. or- and this is what we don't know- dont know if the russian popular populations as aid autumn set not send it might get or I'm not gonna go That happens. Go the other way. History doesnt support. That is true since just shut up another notch in the russian not offer phil but you get in the end is a test of wills that you don't know what
answer. Is you don't know who has the stronger willingly look there? Ukrainians obviously have an incredible: will it's their homeland, it's their houses, it's their country, they are going to have, when incredible will, but at the end of the day, you're going and up with this, if you end up in attrition fight- and we just did, machines, can keep porn bodies at its terrible. Maybe what we We ought to do is take all his resources reported and put them into into stockpiles and caches in various places. Invite the russians in and let the crew korean school at him with gorilla. Activities cause? I? I have been very surprised that Ukrainians didn't go into that already. Let me they have. well trained staff, birds they could kill, they could kill a hundred russians a day without engaging them in any attrition ground. You know
force on force peer to peer combat. Why doesn't make sense to do that so they're are going to figure that I mean it seems like they're, going to have to figure that out is week to week and beat them with numbers. We need to be done with guerrilla warfare and we'll see what they do be interesting by the way back to the back to the judges in iphone, I went back to enjoy before americans were allowed to go back because those working with a guy in hong kong hell of a guy- and I was germany where we built a four install spilling in Hanoi after the war right next to the metropolitan
what year was up, or else this would have been jeez early nineties draft makes that I have to think about that, but it was before woodcock went there into the water. Now that was late seventies. When I think that was in the seventies, yes, it would have been somewhere in the eighties. I think yeah, when I did that anyway, So I I took a day off by the way vietnamese at the start of the series were still raw. Vietnamese were gracious, as could be because of course, they had one silica, the could affordable and they are the young ones worse. It's interested billing what they ve subsequently billet, but outdoor I ii during one of those? So you gotta you gotta. Excuse me, I gotta get a taxi and I gotta go take a drive of die for I got to see those dredges, so I drove up there.
we are still a still kinds of bomb damage all over the place. I'll look over this new gauge railroad, rich, get worse. That's where His stuff was coming down a narrow gauge, railroad, so much stuffs, because the roads were good, a couple of bridges were still damaged, but the gate rare, which was just eclipsing. How could they move off his tony chuck at the movehut stop south? How can anyone in in, if you were paying any time, june? At all areas like the story arrived some day, I'd like it, I could be here in a couple of more days. I would see IRAN bill. Who's gonna be here for the old frogs and thanks to build shots does, and he's reputedly the first see went into a tunnel. I went into a coochie tunnel. None of this is true, stronger, not but in supposedly wrought bell came up. that only said, she's does refer to live like this.
We can there no way we're gonna weapon, no argument about sixty six sixty seven, so over the barge is still there. When you went there to drink, this directive global eliza went so we, with its back too, for on may and a new. So they were in the sort of the road so when we it man anew in did some damage. I think that provoked some kind of retaliation. Now what Retaliation was sure whose whose story, I believe, but they thought they were really that. That's what let me go then, after that technical for tunnel
incident yeah, you say appear when we sent the nasties up there, knowing they get the job done quickly. These islands are in the direct path of the entrances to the harbor and hitting them could have been considered a threat to the harbour itself. He came in fast and hit the targets harden success. We when we finish nor feed me patrol craft, came after us with a fury chasing us back down toward denying our boats ran them somewhere north of the seventeenth parallel those north vietnamese boats. Without chasing us that night were the ones that allegedly attack the? U s? S Maddox and the: u s: S, turner, joy and our attacks on them. Most likely triggered their strategy to gauge the? U s and retaliation. What happened with us and the turner, joy and maddox on that night would result in the joy congressional talking goat resolution. authorized president johnson to escalate. U s military efforts in vietnam
no young, Jim hawes would not have attributed any nefarious motives to those decisions. An older and more cynical gym was would attribute it to selfish political reasons. So, and I I wish I hundred I wish I knew the truth someone read this section here is a younger seals, which I am one cannot appreciate the atmosphere. In those days, the frogman and early seals were barely tolerated by the traditional navy and thirty four or a was the most politically sensitive operation in the country, ignorance and disinterested covert operations, along with security apartment allegation made it inevitable that the navy would appoint an officer charged with no training, no experience no interest in a vessel smaller than a destroyer, so you're doing with this guy all that you were doing there. You say, but dealing
If that was part of what I had to go through in vietnam, in order to be prepared for the congo. There. I learned the clandestine art of plausible deniability and gathered the experience that led me to build and lead a mercenary navy for the cia has credibly lucky has been paid to do. What what I would have done for free And this it's just a little bit of information here. You say, while I was learning covert ops on the job in vietnam, the cold war was heating up in africa. What preceded my arrival in the congo was an extraordinary effort that included the towns of an american operator georgie Ok, he everything he was supposed to do and more a war as a one man show mackay was
the congo to work with five commando, as he made up the entirety of the? U s clandestine maritime paramilitary team. The agency had sent him there before they sent me and no contribution was more vital than to mission success than my case, but through an event, the middle of a crucial battle. Mackay made it. Judgment and acted on it and it exactly the wrong decision according to the state department, because of that the operation and never the operation became available to me, but the ground. work for our mission successfully in actions mackay took at a place, called fits the moroccan myself right, fizzy busy. So just like it's written, fizzy, morocco, now we're talking its nineteen sixty five, the congo I don't feel that heated and cooled to a varying degree of ferocity over the pre preceding several years. The symbol, simba rebels- and these are communist rebels, a ragtag bunch of untrained, renegades, more interested in pillaging the and butchery. Then
ideology or cause, but they be and to receive the support of communist advisers and troops who had been training in eastern europe and china and supplies of weapons and ammunition we increase the? U s worried that soviet bloc reinforcement and training the symbols might actually turn into a coordinated fighting force. That notion ganda, dr policy? You talk about and invite away. I I have to say this on rings chunks of this book, I'm reading a small percentage of the book. There's all kinds of details in here there's an credit story. That's phones through were hidden the highlights of it, but get the book but you can get all these details, some of them you talk about. Mackay Mackay left the navy nineteen fifty two started. Salvage business in cuba. Eventually he gets pressured outer cuba by the communists who gets put out of business. The person that put him out of business in cuba was there was the ministry of the minister of industry, which need CHE guevara. That's the guy!
who put mackay out of business. Would he started this? This this company down in cuba after he gets forced out a cuba. He goes back to us because he was in the cia before so mackay and and we'll get into real links up with a guy named lieutenant, grow mad mike poor he's the commander of these five commando mercenaries, and these guys, kind of joined up. They get some vessels I've commando starts. They start doing basically and fear its operations. There's this giant lake had he say that lake tagging yoga tagging euchre, so agony can gain luca tagging euchre, I'm gonna brutalize. I want for fifty miles long, fifty miles wide tag and eager second deepest like in the world, and it's actually in between what two countries, its
tween one turn it's tanzania and burundi and an eastern congo and its divides those two countries. So they have. They're they're running operations to try and suppress these rebels. and you say this during the assault mackay- would make a significant difference in the war, albeit hit by making a car. this decision that would contra contravene the cia instructions. He wasn't post to be in the fight. The state department wanted. No, u s. Finger prints on the operation and plausible deniability was the purpose behind using five commando, both groups, if a man Mary were killed in the congo, so be it. But if an american turned up shot and dead their particular an x you personnel, it would be much more difficult to ignore and whitewash away. Mackay was the only american officer involved in the planning training in preparation of this operation and despite cia instructions. Ultimately, the only one who unexpectedly ended up engaged in combat so
They're doing this big amphibian amphibious operation again get the book. There's really cool details about it. They do this amphibious operation to land troops on the beach they get resistance when they get on the beach, they start They can't really get off the beach for awhile and their pinned down, and you say this is far commando forces took casualties. They became bogged down around each hour plus three. The attack start to stall. These guys are short on ammunition and all on the left flank of the of the landing beach. There was this church and in the church there was some snipers, patently that were really reaping havoc on the I've commando guys. And so you say this mackay went to the captain of the armaments, and this was the ship that they were using I've commando, mercenary under horse command and asked him to bring the boat around and all
to get someone on the seventy five millimeter recoil was perched on the stern, but there was no response mackay face to face and under fire in the middle of a battle stared at a frozen captain who would be cook could gone. Gunshots without hesitation. Mackay took control of the ship himself. He ordered the helmsman dish to steer the air man's parallel to the beach until they were approximate one hundred fifty meters offshore and only two, fifty metres from the gun nest. Mackay lay called for a dead slow course with the engine stopped and the urmand began. Taking direct enemy, fire mackay ran to the aft deck and got onto the giant seventy five millimeter weapon here, bore, cited and tested the rifle the day before so we fire with accuracy. He loaded the recoil us took aim and fired the powerful weapon at the steeple with. Hidden, gunners continued to pin down the landing troops first shot was a balls I
the heavy rounds inside of the route. Recoils struck the machine gun nest with a force that demolish the steeple two bodies were flung into the air like a pair rag dolls. As the nest was splintered. Blown apart, the gunners were silenced. The tec colonel poor, began to plan a break out that would take troops into the interior from fishing to pursue the retreating symbols, he buried is ok, I is the envy count- was two hundred fifteen. So this is like before you get there, and this guy mackay. After that, It happens. He finds out that his father had died. His father was a cop and new york, p n Y p d tat. If his father had a heart attack goes home when gets home, It sounds like they say: hey look, you're out there doing what you weren't supposed to be doing and they kind of don't let him come back. the congo, the state department. What should you do? You want you to be successfully your mission, but not
make any rules the sea. I want you to be a success, in your mission and not get caught breaking any rules How did he get is miles? How did he get caught? Oh poor, my core was the most, Notorious mercenary of the twentieth century. By far you hear about blackjack sram, and in some of these other guys they were nothing compared to whore or sorry that they were nothing compared to war, among and and I don't like horror, but I think he was exactly the right guy for the job and we worked together just fine. I didn't like him because to me too much of a prima donna and that's one example right there. He invited to moroccan correspondence to this.
And, of course, there was a no no, but it served him. It served him well and Unfortunately, though, the world they were old style corresponds represent kept their word on disclosing anything about urban presence, but It was enough to get such a state of our was able to find out even so earlier they just leaned on daily north africa division, which would be more politically sensitive and special operations devotion. So so I thought it was really and receive the africa revision want? Some of them are all, of course, on the hammer shop rouge wanted to tomorrow. your word and bill here not any of our of frogs father,
was very instrumental in protecting shorty, and so he went on, spend another five. Thirty four years need and retired to his early, so hideous, but at but not an outbreak. Meanwhile, as that's happening, you are you get off Yes, I think you get orders so that you can, Yeah, you know, you're next assignment is take a attuned to vietnam. but you're still in vietnam at the time, yeah I'd volunteered to you to take the first detachment to this to the delta, so that car comes in your user. Hey look I'll go, and you say hey, can you send me a replacement because as I want to get back and start training with my you know it's a totally different type of operation right horse. So You say: can you send me a replacement and
you purrs, which is that the bureau of navy personnel, does this sort of the nightmarish bureaucracy that anyone would think of this big giant organization nets? You know: doesn't of people as people, but as numbers and billets. So you say: can you send me a replacement while they dont send you a replacement? So sorry we can usually skin cancer like your candidates to it. So you wait You're waiting, a saucer, ok I'll, just get a half of us, so the reigning such motor but then you replacement finally shows up to replace too. Placements finally show up and you you know, you're, just a welcome one as it goes on with your training with and you say you know come here's. What we're doing I, you say something long lines of and you ve got in the book, but you I wish. I could not hear a little earlier. Miguel Do you guys I've? Even I could come any time. I've been totally free. And you got You got so so frustrated.
that you are why it was not. It was the cavalier the attitude of the nonchalance further. What are they just Jesus adjust? It hit me at exactly the right, the other, time just the fact of bucharest cassandra replacement here you are getting your in war you're, getting ready, go back to war, I just need a replacement and they just didn't do anything about it. Here's a gag only I could come months ago. It doesn't matter you and you got so pissed off. yeah Call bucharest pick up the phone right in those states with saigon, switchboard, switchboard writer right to boot purse. I were, I I said my name was cause file number six, five, three, nine five, no I'm not
voluntary extension? I want out of this navy right now on a voluntary extension boom and comes the sawhorse good by the facts. That was, if I may, I would use their results in San francisco observes the school mustard and then started making slow slow drive across ghost goes was time, I'd cool off so geez you love what you're doing what what the hell did. You do yeah, I'm constantly telling people not to make decisions. This is why you're in the frequent ts, you have the best job in the world. You get pissed off, and so you say I'm going to get out. You started I've across back towards these costs at some point: get a call from one of your one of your buddies. I'm already back on I'm back on the on the east coast, I'm back in greek solely due to you, decide on a tree and re appointing some real, pointing with small,
friends how long he had found? No, not innocent ass. You were so. You got out, but when you showed back up at the teams he's drove across country a or whatever yahoo boil, probably maybe a month, because I stopped and stop to see my folks. Did your end? Were you thinking hams going to get back in yeah? I thought you were your, what he was yeah sure good think anything. I'd rather do not that I remember talking to thompson needle saw guy and he had used officer, green bahrain and ends. And I said, was it ass? It was hard to the common, also news. I know just signed up and it was hard to get select for special forces. He was no, he just had to go and it was hard to get his psyche set up and he's like who's. Vietnam. No one wanted to be noticed that there was no waiting in line at the door to do any of this stuff. All I do is called starbucks starbucks and she would make it happen.
so that was the plan. That was the point and then I get the call for and what What was fills situation will fill was a plank owner and seal Timor feel goddess. pointed out- and he noticed true name of course- and Phil had been one of the first seals, you're, vietnam and sixty two or whenever it was early. One of the first detachment then went back a handful of guys went over philip was the officer in charge really really smart car really good guy, harvard guy harvard graduate to have great physically good guy and his wife as his least as smart as he was, and she was actually it is inside when they made all the year. When the made all the young dependence lee vietnam they forgot, Barbara was in denying so barbarous kept cry. They kept reich
also, Barbara stained name for quite a long time till someone realized he was there by the time she left. She could speak, read and write vietnamese and she was a hell of an asset to have anyway, yeah so Phil Phil, head Phyllis you only others. Seal off, sir, with swift, boat experience and he had been the year that I was there. He hadn t was shipped sheep dipped in the agency and he was there, but he was doing other things. He wasn't much involving our operations. and he was getting out of the navy had been in r o t see in his turn. Zawoiski used concluded it see I crew training programme. So he call me he call me sir Jimmy said they want. We go to the congo and I'm starting to career training programme and barbarous about the pop,
He said I really don't want to go over. I know what to say: I don't wanna go. Are you interested- and I said you mean I'll get paid yeah. Let's go, let's do it so in bill. Hamilton was with the chief, is mirrored vibration, see a hay and bill Hamilton just use it naw man were yonder pilot and just like an absolute everything, every he's like it. He was like this is delicate, salutary I'm not sure you now slowly ably myself but. In those days, officers knew there we're gonna make em so was the team, the teams, the teams? That's why we survived in my opinion, because god like fain and hamilton and so forth, and in what's his name for my dell Judas and so forth, they all the things necessary to keep them teams alive and it wasn't about, went among
the stars, anyway hamilton naval caterie graduate son of an admiral naval aviator in korea and he says be a frogman, so he comes, and he is, he Comes you d? You d, you too, which is unaware. Devilishly wishes in charge of the team, the unity team and the I think beach jumpers or something else at the time whatever, and he was he was the senior senior frog of an a and he was a godhead had it all. He was big handsome. Outgoing guy. Smart is held amazed, who use the kind of guy you needed to keep us alive. Basically,. Which he help do it up now, when the seals reformed, he was in the right place at the right time and
the east coast and west stupid arguments about who, in those days about who is the most important while they were all important, but he was really important. Stuff. And now followers, so yes or no he's he's had a maritime branches in the sooner bright eyes so so, I get a call from bill and says: come on up. Let's talk, I said okay, so I go up and he course by it. I need to know chicken me out as an individual. Y know. If I'm really about swift, could. I didn't know why, but he knew he asked me. Some questions obviously knew what I was talking about about swift. So that was it. He said. Ok, let's go you. ready, where you gotta get out there right now so It takes me to see a guy named cheever, who was the head of special operations, division or retired marine colonel smart guy? Can you imagine I going talk this guy he's gotta decide whether or not this kid is
You should go to the middle. The car will allow himself with all the weapons in cash that it takes to do it, and your twenty six years old, my twenty five or twenty four twenty six. I think article six, whatever he's gonna make it. Search and you're you're out of nature, civilian, civilian right, and so we pass it can pass the test and, and then he says, oh yeah priority of some ideas for your work and foresight. I go down too much so they say we too were to oriented she course don't outside marina, yeah admiral, and which was also a train place for smoke jumpers in its also worthy. They trains are pickers for louse These figures, for our small sums, have been just smoke. Jumpers so we ve got to get. You got certain orientation.
over him and then I came back and when headquarters, get what I needed of you, what a wonderful thing boy when you had an emergency was like everybody, said said: hooray, we got an emergency, thereby woke up, and you can do enough, for you will really. It was stronger. So yes we're. I there said dick Johnson, if he's gonna, be your boss in you'll, find out what you need to know say I arrived in the cap of we leopold will on commercial, you d flight from paris, with twenty five hundred in cash, stuffed in my socks and a quantity of morphine filled syringes in my back. I knew, I would never lie be casualties and cia supply and logistics made sure I had. I had what I needed to help get the job done. She just rolling in there. What was your cover?
Well, when I got on the plane, I was department of the army. She's me part of the navy you so went to get off. The plane was department of our eyes. I can't even remember because nobody around me known one cared and nobody but I had one assesses flimsy. then you leave leopold bill for Albertville, which is now called Colleen me. and what's we uphold called now, Kinshasa and charter you say this- I began to learn everything in this operation be different, my soul. In vietnam. Experience included a highly skilled professionals and state of the art. Resources immediately at hand in the military had also been accustomed to a formal structure of working with other troops and adhering to a coordinated strategy, and where vietnam and where vietnam may have been the president this new practical reality. This was a remote enterprise where I went from high tech to know tech there were,
historical. How twos and no one with previous experience, gimme direction or assistance wants an albertville. I was completely on my own. No one was there to meet me. No crew existed and few avail boats were in need of substantial repair in this my corner of africa. The CIA just expected me to handle things on my own and go out and get the job done. That's exact What I did was I mean dick was dick was trevor. He is a war to marine. Would have been. This is dick johnson, your dick jokes, and what was his position? He was the head of all military and paramilitary activities in the congo. Working for Larry Delgado was the chief of station and he had been a chief of station If he was really experienced sky and justice, just a terrific fellow any bit, but but he basically said, look after you decide as he was gonna. Keep me cause. I had to go. I'd have his
Stay up approval be in order to stay, because he could have sent me home. After yeah just said: look I'll help you, we again, but not much. You can do two thousand miles across the jungle over there. You just gotta figured out, so they wait. You goin What more could a guy the for g jihad stuff up? Oh, please Here's your intro to five km. Do you say this? I knew these guys were five commando mercenaries, colonel mad, my course troops. probably the most famous mercenary in modern history. The call from mad mike had collected a hotchpotch. I have experienced soldiers pretenders and combat, cast off the way others collected stamps. He had
he had ability and charisma and he never shied away from an opportunity to inflate is reputation. His exploits africa are said to be the inspiration for daniel carnies, novel and film, the wild geese, which started richard Burton and roger more over the next few months. I would learn first hand of the vicious nature of this five commando band of cut throats. The way there almost revered code of duplicity instead of loyalty and how their ruthless tactics adhered only to a pale version of military standard? These all white and paramilitaries from former british colonies in africa. Europe in the uk were deafening, Your well disciplined combat troops. There little respect for treatment of civilians and property particularly safes and they would damage great their shady conduct many times. While I worked with them, then he our story here about. This it's kind of hard. You formed your quick reply.
station with them there they were trying to get into a safe and they were trying to blow it open and they didn't know what they were doing and you help them blow safe, open and then, when they talked about, you know how they're gonna divide. What was in it. You like. Ok, I'm not here for that. you know what what intended you have on five commando when you showed up there, you just read lets it that he's a nice for just right cause may have they would sign contracts, and I came every six months counter swarm inequality deteriorate over time because it was a nasty environment made. If it wasn't, you know if it wasn't december's, it was sir hemorrhagic during fever or year or whatever so equality that people who are who are signing contracts deteriorate over time. So by the end of it was real drugs I mean not yet their surreal tricks they're. All there were a few amongst all those who are first class, who are first class soldiers,
Not many in the ones that were were her were were when, as a first class soldiers, they had the dead. The soldier skills but the because otherwise they ve still in the british army or whatever mentality was what're you You now used to your start, you after you ve got to work with them, the way it is, will the leadership less favoured maginnis? They were mercenaries. I mean the fur things. Firstly, it and when he heard her new town was half of them. peeled off to get the missionaries and half peeled off to get the banks. Okay, so they were mercenaries. I didn't pay them. Ah, they were five commando. I wasn't. I wasn't in their chain of command of they didn't have to take. Any orders from me so had to make sure, but I'd get him to take orders for me,
If there was any discipline to be done, I had to say what needs to be done and not in any in it would get done, but I had no no official position any of this, so I can't think of I couldn't have been better prepared for penguin and seal to do it or have really good, and when I got in in here where I am, what really helped was instinct instinct that was honed in training and in vietnam, because you know when I get when I finish harvard business school. I had unlearned instinct took me a long time to realize how one mistake that was, and yet back to trust in my instincts drew pretty good
so this is kind of a cool along those lines. You say the event that it contributed more to any other towards the success of the force, novel conga lace. My saying that right, yeah, was the recruitment of you know. I don't actually know for sure that just what I named it yeah, I don't know if the grammar is perfect or not was the recruitment of five commandos regimental sergeant major samuel jock Cassidy, he had and every five commando mercenary in the country and was a hardened soldier of fortune, a veteran of congo and mercenary warfare, the key to his real value? Was the personnel files he held in his head acquiring cassidy with his knowledge and assessment of the troops meant that I might able to recruit the best, the mercenaries, and if I could do that at assemble a navy with capabilities to accomplish the mission castle. Is older than I was, and I knew him as a murderer and a plunderer with a head trigger that often lead to violence. He was too mean tough
word on him was that he had wrapped up a catalogue of savage acts that it earned the fear of every mercenary working in the congo, and many other parts of africa it did we. I addressed him as if he were a. U t, t seal trainee, which was a direct, I back the euro spent as instructor. Thank you. Captain Lee instinct Are you say, we're gonna build a navy? I told him we for without you but you come on board together will make an effective force in this war. I, wished him to stand as if he were a subordinate officer. He stared at me with a lacerated glare. I know your mercenary. I continued, but I will not it against lieutenant lieutenant colonel whore for your services I was my omen felt as though I had the upper hand. in this conversation because I had a desirable card to place or sweden a pot What I will do I told him his seat you said that you are commissioned is lieutenant and if you as good as you are reputed to be.
I believe you are I'll, make you captain Cassidy nodded in agreement, and you can The army ranks you go into that little bit, then you say weeks later you got. at a conversation about this. Costly finally gave me his impression of this initial meeting commander. He said I trained every mercenary and five commando, and no one, including lieutenant court. Colonel whore ever talked to me. The way you did on that first day, I didn't know whether to join you or kill you. Luckily us both eyes, and on once again old adage better lucky than good proved valid, whatever his reach We are now working as a team. We set our sights on assembling a congo navy, so Thank you, Sir linsky. In blaze and all those instructors. I can tell you it was a boy. Why didn't you know? I can't tell you who just turned out right. I said I guess
again- god one god wanted to be a good frogman yeah. You give background on return, a girl, whore, you say his transition. New adventure came out of unlikely circumstances like many people who have lived a blank life horse, personal history, might seem, Secure, nondescript right up to a point refers gained no notoriety that happened the congo he is born in india, served in Lord mount buttons staff in world war, two in the british army in south asia, had been. Generated as a as chartered accountant. Hardly rigorous prerequisite for a mercenary commander, but through a friend he was introduced to one of the congo, is most powerful political figures moisture me, the governor, the breakaway katangara province and once he was any took full advantage, some of his critics word label a profit puppet which is far from it.
horse ability to act, his role was crucial to commanding mercenary army, particularly because he had no formal judicial recourse structure, what did we have good fundamental military skills and that many could recognise those same skills and others and apply them an employee, accordingly, he mass if we played above the riffraff, the role of a british gentlemen officer tapped mercenary troops in overcoming a communist threat, his dear. Of war was a small but important strategic partner called world called world he an acute sense. For both strategy and tactics, and I saw him a cold, blooded killers, african leaders and u s embassy employees with a plum still focusing on chasing down, destroying the rebels. Your dollar, your great respect for one like him, but had water What was it you didn't like about two is like his ego: mahomet been eager. Guy egos
always gideon difficulty so wisely report and in the other, that no I think, and he you very resented me because he had won the navy to be separate from his command. It's one and I knew I knew, and I knew that dick Johnson would back me up as long as I was doing the right things for the right reason: and I and he was gonna to book. and so I say look much mission, my primary reason: v here: interdiction son, you watch support you, you get all the support you could possibly want, but but Primary mission years interdiction, nuts
we help. Thank you and he had a hard time with it for a while, but it ended up working out just fine. We would meet every day about four o'clock to talk about the next next days or next upcoming operations and so forth. Then we did. We supported him very well and that problem went away You start scrounge enough believer liked me because I knew because, as you go about, he must have been what fifty years old, reviews and walked behind you mustn't for fifty years and you're twenty six year old low will punk ass problems, what exactly here, he actually hit his wife with him for much of his campaigning and she had a baby alone. She was, she was great. Looking and toughest could be he's written. A couple of books that are good reads, no object goes out, do the sun. Now you start scrounge up boats, you got the boat called the
You are saying that right, the kivu, and it was you liked it because built, maintain ten, but you liked it cause. You could basically help recruit. Oh, it was a great recruiting tool cause it it. It was a bear and we made it to barracks vessel, so they could eat, they could eat good and sleep clean and do their own cookies or other like those, Five is armageddon five min army guise of terrible so that since it was a hell of recruiting tool, so with with that plus Cassidy's knowledge of the individuals I was another reason: whore got little resentful, I too very much faster, and yet you didnt pay. You pay capacity, So what was? How was he making money and getting paid five? They were in five command, or so they got paid their five commando money, plus all the money they could. They could pillage, as I could
under, but he still kept getting paid by five commando, leaving only one of the world. There are all part of one big mission there. All five km is still five commando, but they were under by mike jurisdiction, crews, rain five commando, while our the congolese government, beginning funneled through american cache, etc. He wouldn't, during the book, if Johnson, which means he was bucking Larry devlin Jesus station and he endeavor never liked him. The devil had called him a a o. What you call a gentleman is, a british would be a british expression of a british expression for captain? I didn't gentlemen adventurer exact terms, but his close, an adventurer and they state they were friends to love. It till devlen died so he didn't want to rock the boat with you know he window.
he knew who is right as pay taxes, and it knows how to be some fat paychecks, and I have no idea the! U s! Government over Ass never ask, and I have no idea plus, it this said he pretended to be above the fray, but Cassidy and John peters who have anybody was meaner than cassie was john, here's woods, what you? What did you heard about Cassidy like you call him, murder and all the stuff when the book awake? What what did you heard about it? That's what I about just. Let me just help level. I mean he when he got drunk near you won't do it was drunk and but he had a bad deliver anyway. He he in fact he was away on medical leave. When I arrived and that's what I heard about him- and so I got word to him as soon as he came. When I heard he was coming back to come and see me so before Hor could get his
endzone them or do anything, and by and by I'd. Also, some again tell you know how you'll. I came to realize it's a thing. You wondered what was to be an officer: big get commission beta whatever, and he had never could do that under whore, because he's too valuable, whores regimental sergeant major So what is interesting like you wanting to be commissioners and after in five commando, a random mercenary for its very yoke here, there's! No, engine that comes with an already think. That's right!. Ah, you say here fast forward: a little bit, things were being fall, a place, our primary folks. Now how to be on the boats. We had a few smaller boats Exaggerated Lee termed p tease, which were operated from the around the two hundred fifty tonnes lake vessel that we inherited mackay and commandeered for the navy. We called our minds, the mothership. She was
the command operations vessel for the further p, tease and armed with captured russian weapons, including a twelve point: seven millimeter, russian machine guns and a u s, semi five millimeter recoil right rifle, the europeans had radar on it. You talk about that. then you say here: peter Jessup of the national security staff wrote a member present johnson, stating that a more substantial pocket coastguard is necessary. He approved the purchase transport and by air and armament and manning of six additional, but to swift and for sea crafts. so they are getting a word that you need more support over there It was all at the beginning. I mean not yet again hamilton and his deputy tom clients who the hell of a guy and the guy who the cubans totally trusted and get into that story. You learn the new definition,
The word trust anyway so hamilton and got these. I swift and went down to us to sort seek raft in Louisiana whether built and got the gothic agents to come on board in his eye outlook and sell it. You know it s. Basically, we cut the superstructure, cut cut the bow got the superstructure cut the whole longitudinal through everything and global masters fluid two of the snow this stripping next do Colleen he was inaugurated, railroad put it on that, put it over to the port, brought the coon ss out or sorry the cajuns you can call. who knows is a view, their body that happened brought occasions out indication that much were the even knew where they work as it was hot and humid and was black but the letter was that they did there. They were doing I mean these girls work like kill cold
we're doing a laugh at the end of the day and up the next morning, heroin thought I'd take a month. It took him like a weaker. Do it did at the boats with those two boats, those which two boats work, though the ones that had been used, their money, in antichrist castro maritime routes, so they d take these boats. That is any you go into the details in the story, but what we need talk about klein's, hero, he said here will first of all white you. When you talk of appliances and in its relationship with the cubans, what was our relationship based on the young and a castro stuff my miami they had just. They had just been together they trusted I mean I didn't even know where they were going in these guys. These cubans get by Sickly turned over to you, and you say here, client- would turn the cuban contingent over me with a message. These men are tough respect, tough
resourceful and brave and take pride their performance. But above all else, there loyal job, as is a proven leader and the men believe in him, so there will be no discipline problems over the years we have developed a trusting relationship based on shared experiences, and I am signing these bonds of trust and friendship over to you when he endorsed the transferred expectations me, I received a teen prepared work unconditionally under my command. No questions asked you're all set klein's, told me now: don't fuck it up So then you had these cuban americans that this is after the bay of pigs, all that it happened and there they had fought castro they'd far communism there now, basically in america, mostly in florida, they get there. opportunity to go to a couple couple where pigs and had been in prison were liberated. With detractors,
So they did, they gerda they get put gather all right. You wanna go fight the communist we got up, we get a spot for you, it's in congo, africa. And they say how yeah let's go arenas. I can not say we do not have one single discipline problem. We didn't have any of that kind of these guys were so professional, so it you know, I I liken it to my boat crew and training. I had such a boat crew. I just had to not fall out of the boat, yeah but interesting were always interesting. Cubans we're almost there. turning to a friend of mine yesterday, whose long as I am a friend of mine, stories. Cuban america came over on the boats and he said is: his mom and dad his dad wandered come to america. His mom was like hey it's not that bad here got my family here. We're gonna stay. And finally, they started taking. They started taking the cuban military age, males and say
you can go to afghan fight for communism and when when the mom her that she said were out and they came american. So that done, how much they like number one? they were willing to sacrifice everything to get away from communism. and also the fact that the cuban communists were exporting fighters to go overseas was really in angola, and I had this conversation yesterday with a guy. Whose, like oh yeah, that's one of the reasons we left as my mom didn't want me to get sent to africa, to fight for communism nope not happening I started to write this book, which is why I really wrote most of the twenty five years ago, because I didn't want to The older you get smarter, tough, refers to a stronger europe and trying to avoid such and I were
to the swiss embassy in washington witches were. They were headed water, recall, representative thing, the cubans and dumb I met a cuban guy was first secretary, very bright, very articulate whatever it's like. I'm gonna write this book. It's you there's a lot of you guys in this, and I said I'd like to talk to the guy who was in charge who, at this point, was on the politburo have in in havana. Aye sir. He said I should like you want to put your size story, and he thought that was just a greater so he got a hold of those guys, but they wouldn't cooperate. So I said, okay, how will you in the butt. You talk a little bit about these guys with shown up with His boats, you talk about a guy named Joe brush who showed up
engine myth shows up with the cage and builders. This is exists. you're crazy story. Oh has raised a bill. Bain an old frogman shows, peace. Another one of these guys bill banker, two years of work we'll go when another one of the world war. Two guys he could do anything I mean he was. You know, talk about the utility player called the guy was like so yeah that was So all part of the team than him hamilton assembled yoga shorter help. Make me look good. When interviewed for this book broussard and that's a guy who's running that the cages about the job and his crew crew. Did the cia apparently expected the reconstruction would take them two or three months to complete he indeed. In a month he said a brag, I said, I'm gonna brag. We were expert at the stuff we built them from the keel up. I worked on the boats when I first went to stewart and we every piece of the boat
We knew what we were phone with occasions slept the country undetected black in black out in the vernacular, the cia logo. Sure course died in his soul. The time has come skull, swift ships or something right now: I try to get a hold of those guys. Gonna thought boy, this they love. This is the reason sons or probably workin the shipyard grandsons. Whatever no never your reply my reach out to you now the swift were powered by high performance, detroit diesel gm feed, twelve, seventy one engines that were extremely reliable where the inborn outboard gasoline engines on the little pities, but maintenance and repair requirements were never ble locally. The key publicity to perform. That kind of work just didn't exist bill here: What looked too teams for support, and he knew the right person for the job renee gough known as gooch.
when Hamilton was the commander of underwater demolition unit to add naval in be a space little creek virginia googe served as a frog man with a specialty as an engine meant. He stayed in that post until his retirement when he left for junior beach and headed for an idyllic caribbean spot in Saint thomas, with his wife and for children. All sailed down to the caribbean on fifty seven foot, retired, oyster boat the type of vessel known as a chesapeake bay skipjack, which He had converted into a faint floating family residence. They endured cain force. Winds, are rejected, sanctuary landing in haiti by papa doc, paranoia papa docks, paranoid regime and the impasse in the doldrums in this, our gas see before pitching up for a couple of years on an idyllic island living aboard a sailboat fishing and enjoying being a family again. Then the cia came calling about a one of a kind mission in the congo. Ever the dedicated frogman Googe said,
good, could not say no to his old commander this veteran, old frog would provide age and experience, because at twenty six I was decidedly short on both he was the kind of guy who could do anything a good sailor, a brilliant engine, men and a car Selfless friend, gooch had the power. if the demeanor for the job and when he arrived in the congo, he made an immediate impact on the smooth running of our operations is terrific guy. I wasn't allowed no one when he died, a casino had dependent power had had to hammer gallic together gasket and then wrapped them in a heavy sailcloth and managed to find a cool spot to, like you, get a plane over to get his body out to get him back to leopold. I always no religious to speak to his family. The agency took care, of course,
but I was never allowed to speak to him too about the times jealously came out and we become friends and so far since never forgive myself for a bank that order her bosom the right thing to do a merit, stella reasoning by better it wasn't the right thing to do anyway. It was the right thing for me to do, but anyway he was. He was just remarkable guide, hello, a friend and helper and adviser, and I get along with everybody and mercenaries all liked him. The cubans adored him that knows greek and he could die young. Yet he could fix anything. I guess if you take a skipjack tuna turning into a living quarters. You can do anything he sure good up. I can't give you a wife and happy. I own a double impressive
you stay here. When I first learned the cubans would be coming to train the five commando mercenaries. I realise there might be a potential problem. The more nurse had a range of motivations for being in the congo, some more strictly, therefore, money being paid for professional soldiering, but others were perverted so perverted and arranged they were just there because they wanted to kill coffers, the pigeon of south african term for blocks fighting the congo. Conflict enabled them to do this and get paid for it because some of them cubans or dark complexion. I need to make sure that before they arrived, they would be allowed to be allowed to have a smooth introduction into the equation. I approached jock, cassidy, jock These cubans are professionals, they been fighting a real adversary, not a bunch of ganja hyped up teenage soldiers and they know what they're doing. After all cast me to acknowledge this. I proceeded and some of the cubans have dark complexions, so I'm holding you responsible for better, not be any trouble castle reply was filled with perfect, mercenary rationale: no prob, commander. They ain't catheters their cubans,
and so our operation rolled on, fuelled by a commitment to racial harmony. There was such a funny incident. Dork door commander. They care for their keywords fuck lord low. Is You wanna fast work in the summer. Good great details in this book get them What can you say here? I'm gonna fast for a little bit on december, thirtieth chavez. So chavez is your lead. Guy of the cubans that came and he's bay equally the extraordinary extraordinary leader of these cubans and he's outrun and operations on were thirtieth job as well. We're coming across a boat in the lake they maneuvered lobo one. This is some of them again fast forward. These are the vessels that they gave them vessels name low, but one in a circle around the small boat, to take advantage of the moon to eliminate the ship's log notes it. It was a boat with an output.
Or a definite sign of a rebel vessel job as ordered a high firing and immediately the boat attempted to get away low, but one or two in pursuit, and instead of firing over their heads, the crew took aim at them for real firing several rounds. They approach the boat slowly and found that everyone on board had jumped in waken was trying to swim away job as ordered a slow speed chase dodging the rebels. Through the water, until they tired out logos, lobo, once crew fired rounds into the water just scare, Swimmers is job, has recorded they finally capture the rebels and brought them on board. The cubans were motivated by a general hatred of communism, but they all so perceived early on in their recruiting that something was happening in the congo that related to their cuban problem. They would soon find out for certain rumours circulated throughout miami, that communist cubans were fighting in the congo, but no one knew for sure if it was true or not until my navy crew confirmed it
Here's another just you're here and all you got leadership challenges hall over the plays down here. Oh here's fast far too little is well after midnight, so loud bang on my hotel room door, even though half asleep I instinctively picked up my walter p p k from them, table went reluctantly to the door. It's never good news it that our I e the door open a severely enable inebriated jock cast stood, swaying in the hallway. Behind him, the tall gang We turn was quaking with fear. drain from his face new, so pale with fright that he almost seemed a glow in the dark. I shook my at the sight of them and Cassidy immediately bird out commander. This arsehole insulted me in front of the men. I thought about these vile temper and having what lest his vengeful brand of discipline, the- and this is another story that you tell em here about how he handled somebody that had stolen somethin. I knew he was capital capable of meeting out irrational punishment, cast eager glared dern
I'm going to kill him. He said his eyes flared with an alarming rage that continue to build, and then I'm gonna burn down. The navy has step in my hotel room out the door open a little wider, as ghastly turned andrei motion to turn to stand fast. I needed to do the tension and do a quickly before did something really stupid minds he's told me that I needed to maintain a casual atmosphere in this situation. Come on- and I said, tell me what happened: let's talk about it, so what What was durant's roll over there while they when we found out that the chair,
It was in the area they decided, they needed a a real intel guy. So they came, they came out and made. He was chief of base which paid him my boss, in fact, but he didn't he didn't get and it didn't interfere with anything I was doing, but he was there supposedly to try to collect intel and I I like you can be careful about his name because he is a bit of an israel. I was a bit of a name in washington, see you so tells you more about headquarters, mentality anyway, and so on. So here I never drink with the again one time I drank with a one time. I can better shot with one time, so I made him think I get home, I liquor, which I can't and again no you got one way.
Muse, successful frogman and I really hit what I was shooting at pointing at those days. So I never did it again. Never let 'em ps, I I was friendly. I just kept a little distance distance kept distance and I did everything through jock cause I for some reason I had jocks total. Total in the code definition of the word up- total loyalty, ten it but the butter What's his name, dern dern, he would go to the to the watering hole and drink with these guys do bit familiar there, there too. There screwed up anyway, they get weapons on and they got. Alcohol will tell us the definition of trouble. It's funny. I never know what time did I ever do that?
would go do and I guess maybe thought he was collecting information or something I don't know, but you just drinkin. As far as I was so this is he insulted capacity in front of the mineral cassie thought he insulted and furthermore, whichever was So do I come back to them. Come back to the hotel de lock. In there art, so she turned away- and he Cassie came Annie suddenly say repeat himself A girl and burnt down the navy jack- I don't give a shit if you kill him. But why would you want to burn down the navy? We worked so hard to build. You ve tried it, yeah anyway, so that and over the course of the next three or four hours till dawn. So it up a little bit and then he
yeah. I I said: look I'll keep upkeep during away from the navy. Don't worry we'll just get onto our stuff, so can say that that was agreeable to him, and so he staggered back to the navy in asleep. But often I went down to dirty room that dumb ass kept drinking. Can you believe- and I said you know- I said I don't know whether we keep you alive. I said I don't know for sure I said, will try but my advice you get out of here, yeah that's good shot. If I so that's when I heard the story, that's when I heard the talk was gooch about how we are going to have to kill curiosity if it came down to her rosy, the curse of year ordered an dough. So that's that that's what you came up with you, you and gooch came up with the whole plan. You have to kill Cassidy because you couldn't obviously let him kill us. America, yeah yeah, fortunately
fortunately dern took off and it was all dissipated, I took your advice, thankfully. Luckily he put his ego in check cause. There's people that are like not not leave thornhill yeah, that's how people end up getting killed. He had an ego, but he also had a sense as bash about saving his own ass yeah fast forward a little bit here again. That's it, but just did dealing with like may him. I mean this is this may, have you just keep, together twenty six year old, lieutenant d, amour lieutenant Genji. Now the reason of the fleet will not have caught they started. Calling me commander. North are ok I'll big. Now for that made me the horror by the way in terms of rank, so that also worked. It was totally accidental Did you look old for your age or not really? Well you
there's a picture in guaranteeing adele money. Look like! Maybe you don't look like a fool commander there. Oh no! No! I fast forward a little, but here you see, I was back at base monitoring the radio and I suddenly heard ricardo job as his boy shout attack the distinct pop pop, a machine gun came crackling through the radio, immediately disk distinguishable from the mundane, static and clap clutter. My ear is attuned to the prospect of firefight and the hair on my arms began to prickle. As that unmistakable sound cut through the feeble reception of our rudimentary equipment. The swift were out on the lake and in some shit the only This was how deep the boat crew open fire with the first semi automatic. So yeah, ok, forty seven weapons we capture, captured in previous raids. That was one of our ways. We heard them using their own, get guns against them. If the boats guy
they closed during the melee of the fire fight, the eight case would come in handy lobo. One was arm for combat caring, fifty cow machine guns mounted amidships, port starboard and aft, plus a shoulder fired. Fifty seven millimeter recall his rifle on the gun. above the cabin a concussion a barrage of is five enemy vessels return fire, but screaming between boats to leader recalled the events favourably. As soon as we made contact one boat separated from the group. In hindsight, we realize it was obviously to distract us leaving us to contend with the other for boats that were firing intensely. The fifth that cut away with station distort distance behind the others, not firing a shop just waiting as trying to decide whether to reengage or depart then their decision made. The fifth boat suddenly swung around and opened up again in a hail of bullets that covered their escape as its Betty used across the black waters towards the enemy refuge of tanzania,
debriefed chavez, and it was clear to both of us that there was something very curious about that fifth boat. The manner in which it is gaped suggested it sheltered someone or something very important, a view I p. We thought Otherwise the remaining enemy boats would not have put up such fierce resistance there. Previously avian consistently been caught and run. We had our discovered that castro cubans were fighting alongside communist rebels. We have detected the ring you cause, because they weren't discipline enough to protect their names or language. They blatantly violated even minimal tactical cover on the radio and, of course on cuban recognise another. So we ve been on that boat who had married, a fierce protection. We believe, if that had to be che guevara, it was real and to assume that it would have taken some one of his stature and importance of che to motor Wait the for boats to remain in the fight to save If I am selling in order to give the fifth boat protection, so we could open up and withdraw and escape
and the new york inherent in corporate governance diary. The african dream, the diaries of the revolution revel. Mary warn the congo. He writes the pressure key and the both felt from the five commando ground troops and from the navy's interdiction efforts. By our day, we patrols we had been a able to nearly close down the rebel supply lines which he created, which create a shortage of everything, particularly food. We all major weapons ammunition. Medicine could not reach, their base were systematically being deprived of everything they depended on. As our navy began to live up its capabilities. The battle strategy was working exactly as we plan to prepared for we intensify patrolling even more and as chair his diary- indicates the intimidation factor we created kept the captains of their vessels from even attempting translate supply missions applies, ran out. The nutrition rate kicked up and talk
the end of the summer. The symbols began deserting the desertion numbers would escalate slowly and then become a critical exodus into the fall campaign. You just posted up jake of ours die on here. What is yours is the african dream, the doors of the revolutionary war in the congo, and then epilogue, you makes other references in the book, but in the epilogue what is discussing the the and the opposition services he their weapon, do not currently at. This is he's writing to himself into castro. Their weapons do not currently add up to much the most telling have been there pity boats which have made it difficult to cross the lake blah blah blah their work by his own admission. Yeah yeah you ve got some. You got some good quoted here that you pulled from from there.
Worries glories army suffered from a scarcity of competent leadership lack of organization. According to his writings, his group was continually outmaneuver by the five commando mercenaries that he refers. his guardsmen. He says that in that book I Informed that a large number of guardsmen were outflanking us from the hills only one unit did honour to our army and resisted for another hour. He can he's from a military point of view. The situation is difficult in that our troops are collections of armed men without the slightest discipline and without fighting spirit. The cia bill and fast what a little but the sea I had built. A massive air force in the air campaign was critical to our mission success, a training programme that it be done as early as nineteen sixty one at the request of the car These grew into a superb air force pilot. It solely by cuban exiles any go into some of that, but that's it with another. Just awesome, pc or the cubans were will
to go out and fight where they ever could, wherever they could against communism, and- and they did they were at their flying around stressing troops and taken out boats. I mean pretty awesome effort, and you say this here ultimately chase seem to recognise the futility of his position, and this has gone from his diary. Could I ask the cubans to die in the trunk she's to defend this piece of nothing. He questions he didn't send another message by radio to two fidel castro. things are falling apart. Whole units and peasants- are, going over to the enemy, crew and boats, in good condition, urgently needed He's calamity was nearly finished in the congo. Well
It was his his his own arrogance and ignorance at the outset which led to this quasi. Really he did. He didn't well assessment of the environment he was coming into and the people he thought he was going to be working with. He just thought he was going to come in and make these people ideologically method, and they had enough, they didn't know communism from capitalism from whatever utopian or whatever, They wanted to do what they'd always done, which re pillaging blunder and the thought that he could turn them into some kind of big ideological force. Was this nonsense? He he was a romantic revolutionary in every sense of the word. He had
he loved to kill. There's ample evidence of that. Whenever you wanted some practice, you just go into the prison in Havana and he it. It was all about his zeal. For quote the revolution and yeah, he couldn't build anything which he proved when he was minister of industries and in in cuba. He wasn't a builder. He was just a killer, just a killer. I'm in a fast forward a little bit on november, twenty one you. Talk about this would have been the day that go far and his men evacuated out of tanzania Jacob. And his ill fated rebel band had been out of food money, weapon supplies and lock. We ran them out of the congo. They were sent packing
by the combined efforts of the force nobel congolese and the mighty mccarthy air force, and the five commando mercenary army, but even with that portion of the rebels, forces on the runs are on the run or operations against the remaining insurgents continued events in congo begin to move quickly. After commies q enforces forces pulled out the same week on november twenty fifth general mobutu stage, a bloodless coup data which ousted president has a boo and prime minister kimber who also created internal congolese constitutional problems, and even though the? U s saw it as a way of preventing political and military disintegration. But Bhutto was only thirty five years old and the constitution required at a minimum presidential age of we need the constitution, would have to be amended to common him.
I have said that all of us in the congo believe that mobutu was the best option at the time he was comparatively non corrupted, demonstrated leadership skills acknowledged his failures of his own troops as part of an effort to upgrade its quality performance and showed no signs of seeking revenge retribution for any of anything The past corruption and megalomania that would become the standard in his government was not evident at this time. In his personal history, we've, my core decide. He's not going to extend his contract, so he's done. You got mobutu taken over. You say this here at this point: lobo one was the was only one nautical mile off shore charges and the crew then withdrew and took their swift. What's another four miles out, waited until dawn through The course of the night began arraign hard. There was an absolutely no visibility
And there were no long longer any to night flights, external at four, a m to begin a patrol again searching for lights. They had earlier they patrolled that area for another two hours, but as the sun came up, they lost any chance spawning was light again. Job is wrong. How bright the lights on the beach were. And then you say they waited still hoping to see those lights with no illumination were spotted on the shore. The crew had itself back to their previous target. At the end of the peninsula, there they found clusters of whites into groups when the crew was ordered. To make hi fire. All the way to both groups suddenly went out job as ordered the crew to fire again, and they found Gonna be a rapid exchange of gunfire erupted between the boats and the enemy on the shore for nearly an hour job. His and his crew were embroiled in a ship to shore battle, using all weapons on board told job is logged finally records. They don't shoot me. lobo wanna taken out an enemy stronghold. They had been out of the lake
on the lake for more than twenty four hours and engage in two years, gunfights attacked on the water and from the shore, and these are all these are just later. A penny. You give really good details. You gotta logbooks from java meets its pre awesome to read this stuff. In fact, this is like one one of those core points. You say when I began the project of writing a book. I opened the ship's log book for the first time. In years I found a no one paid line paper torn from a loosely finder lying inside the front cover the note, addressed to me. I don't remember, reading in at the time, but seeing it nearly half century later written in a little, fanatics, bangladesh. I found but a gracious parting gift from the crew chief. It says we give you good year. Nineteen sixty six
employees of force. Navy kivu captain are chavez, one nine sixty six ricardo and his men had indeed handed me and all of us concerned a very good year. Note the treasure yeah that's horse and revealed a fine that so that, as This stuff is kind of winding down. We mention that my course kind of done with it. contract a new got this year This story here just get the book to get this story and you mentioned these guys are really you got this guy John peters, who is one force guys and then you ve got killed, city in Peter's peters. You say only make sure this right, peters had been
responsible for securing any the resources five commando had taken during their raids. Peters was an x and seal, whose to have a fanatical prejudice against the british officer class, who is also route was killer, maybe order from the british army, and only you got that guy. You got this guy, John Peters, and then you ve also got another guy named fawn option or for our van open and fair Open you say here was textbook perfect as a british officer tall, handsome upper middle opera. British accent attended the royal military academy sand Hearst he the court martialed because of something had happened like something stolen aliens up not graduating, but he and up fighting in korea hands are fighting in Egypt. Then he serves in the federal army in rhodesia,
Basically, you go through this whole story. It just fascinating to read about these, are basically in competition for who's going to take over as leaders of the five commando correct and one of them ends up dead and then often ends up dead with a bunch of bullets in his stomach self inflicted allegedly click. I mean a clip. A whole clip self inflicted tough guy you it's! It's wildly look as a lot of stuff you know grown up. I was always fascinated with the military noah's fascinated with any want the old mercenaries soldier of fortune, like all the stuff, was part of my childhood you're the movies. And so we if you are care how to do these names like I did. I mean I've always known about the about my core. You know he's this famous guy and commander, you know about these things. Do you know about the rhodesia ins, and you know that
recruiting that happen with the rhodesia bring british military down there and just like the roads commandos, like all those things that day all you you said so much light on those things and its wild from you to think about, because every time I think about me I cor, I'm might know you were. Actually you did you've worked with this guy. How long were you there for toll a little less than a year? So you there's a guy. You worked with like directly and in all these merce crazy, mercenary killers. We, crazy, mercenary killers was a thing because listen there is a modern day version of a mercenary what you know that goes out and does security in their work and for the government there get hired by when these big contractors look, there's been some flare up, there's been some things that have happened that are certainly have been investigating. Some people been punished, I have a lot of details about that, but but basically Much more com? I think that all this guy
from the marine corps went to work for this company he's going oversees the contractor. That's not the same this is not the same thing as well. These guys were. These guys are legit mercenaries, and this is your data day interactions. He built a navy with these guys while the red Going back to the book here You mentioned this earlier, but it A crucial element of fate that came into a world on the afternoon of november twenty eight. It would take a major tool our crew about six o clock. In the evening a young congolese corporal was dry, having a poorly maintained truck down this military transport road and with no warning. The truck sputtered and stopped stalling directly in front of the bar callin me just near the bottom, bought a boot store and a few
hundred meters north of the hotel deadlock, that were you guys, lived the bottom. Store was the only store and albertville that had glass in the wind anecdote. He asked for this truck breaks down and in it just doesn't move and so it's a sunday evening, a normal, It just occurred What one thirty five a m on Monday was pitch black african night on the deserted street, with a five tonne hazard lying in wait. There was caution lights on the truck, no reflectors, nothing that would mark the presence of an enormous vehicle abandoned on it dark dry road in the middle of the night, a pair of five commando, mercenary soldiers from south africa. VON lears cornelius. Johan Van week had been out together that night gooch was with them The three of them are driven that road many times and knew the terrain very well
volunteers was behind the wheel, engages in shock on sea than wife was riding in the back in the blackness of the african night, with the driver feeling sure of himself. The jeep came racing down that road at a high rate of speed. The fish actually report states that the jeep slammed full force into the back of the transport truck thrusting. Forward and embedding it's from bumper solidly into a cocoanut palm man, there is low half inside and half outside the jeep. You still alive when the fornite first witness to the scene. The other south african, very weak, was all still alive and was quickly taken to hospital for treatment. Gooch was the old instantly I was not formed about the incident drew the action until the next morning, when I the news I was immediately. I went immediately to where his body had been placed. Cassidy came with me from the source that is now lost to memory. We found wooden materials and hammered together a coffin with the assists of charges,
pressure do papa. We rapid and strong heavy canvas and transported it down to the or where we somehow managed to get a refrigeration unit in one of the warehouses working. We made sure that his body was held appropriately until a plain could get it. albertville to make the transport to leopold ville, there could be properly prepared for the onward trip back to the usa. It was certainly not the first casualty adele with but he was the one that affected me the most having to handle his body with respect in those extremely crude circumstances was more disheartening use my challenge, my responsibility, and we did our best that terrible situation to get our friend and comrades body back safely to his family, his contract, into our mission had been essential. I've cured guilt around, for fifty years for obeying my instructions from the agency, not to speak with him, wife at the time in retrospect in retrospect,
it was an exaggerated security concerned by the agency, I'm hoping that this book will adequately say what I would have said all those years ago The Gough family, children remember the day, well, they heard the news they arrived home from school and some family friends. Were there a priest father I'll phone alphonse olive. Who is also a family friend was there he took the children. Had room and told him what happened. It was a very deep. call time for the family. They were not able to get a lot of information from the agency about the circumstances of goods is death, youngest son now was the one who eventually did the research years later trying to fit all the pieces together marcel renee gough good to us, was bare, in early to national cemetery on December six, nineteen sixty five. He was forty one years old, his Mickey
known as little gooch. Remember that many of his father's unity and you d mates were at Arlington that day for the funeral, one of most vivid memories of the casket he described It is being made of dark tropical wood It was a small piece of the congo that went with gooch and then whose final rest His name is also inscribed on the memorial wall at the navy sealed museum in four pierce florida, where it belongs. and also you You mentioned this later in the book in two thousand Sixteen, they added it gold star to the cia memorial wall at their head, orders at langley virginia in honour of good. You sacrifice. Elevator.
When did you? Would you said you met? We finally met the family. on the time this book came out what they do afterwards. She worked at the cia and whatever they they. I think we, if I remember correctly, we met in two thousand and fourteen. We had the fiftieth commemoration of the hostage rescued stanley ville, which was the the prelude to this this book, and that was the large. I think the largest rescue of american hostages in history, at least up to that time and five commando gets the credit for the rescue. But it was really a cubans led by american guy named rip, robertson, say paramilitary. I got the
First, there is on the cover of paris match magazine and some time in sixty five or sixty six sixty five, sorry sixty four, damn it c'mon tube and there's a picture of the swarthy guy who she didn't know was cuban holding this little blue eyed blond, haired blue eyed, four year old girl, ah with a machine gun in his other hand, ah RI and she and a whole
bunch of the other people who rescued, including for the five sons of the american missionary, who was murdered at km. Eight kimmel kilometer, eight outside of stanley bill, two of the sons were were wounded but not severely and that during their rescue period there for those five sons and all these other people, including this little girl, not a little girl any longer, obviously fifty years later all came to miami to the commemoration because none of it or method people who rescued them it was very moving her. You can imagine, I prefer the seal. She never met. The people had saved our lives and these four american. Our yes, sir maleagans born raising Whether dad was the other still in the congo. Doing the lord's work.
the amazing guys. Anyway. They these people came the only coverage the own a coverage. Was miami army miami tv station? She was a guy's name me some than real for another community For this very moving event, Amelia this always people's lives. Rs more were saved both americans in other nationalities, not not you not counting all the congolese
It isn't that's one of the reasons I wanted to write this, because the cubans have never given been given any recognition for what they did. This is it, and you know it's just it's so just outrageous in my mind, and none of those cuban politicians have gotten off their butts and done anything about it in florida, either, which I I understand, but anyway, that was very moving event that fiftieth commemoration, while all his people, their say thanks coming from all around the world who we couldn't aiming anybody from motion DC figures hum the fast forward, a little bit here that you know you ve got more fighting with the rebels, your beating brambles, the the cuban sailor, sort, certain kind of terminal
with the locals and with the five commando and just to close out this part part of the book. You say here with my cuban crew gone and missions winding down. It was finally time for me to pack up and leave congo. I did so. exactly how, as I had arrived quietly, I boarded see forty six in albertville, with my three pairs, a catchy pants, three safari shirts and apparent pair of desert boots, and that was that it was a how was so what did you do go back home transition back to the world? Well,. While I warn you when you, when you you very well when you're working with that amount of adrenalin kunst constantly pumping india or system.
it takes a while we come down behind you, you you miss it. It's it's. Never drug in my life, but I can imagine it can be any more addictive than that degree of of of adrenalin constantly being injected in your system so I met a lady in a leopold ville. She worked at the embassy there and she was in so I I kind of chased her around for a little while and off Try to figure out what are really worried. What was gonna do next, the abiding, time. The agency decided they wanted me to go into the clear training programme.
And I really liked what I'd been done and I liked the people that I'd worked with. I mean how you know: how can you beat for she do with seals, and then you do was the bus goes ago. The agency a matter that's a hell of a run. lift with an incredible amount of autonomy and see how twenty six year old, yeah yeah freaking run into war in the congo exactly well, then I would I would oh, I remember now what it was going to do. I wanted to go to Laos. I have been the only gun, only guy, the sort of special ops community who had done vietnam, congo and louse. Be a dirty war was half anyway, the time already funded. Well, I got conned by the best whose
Sue basically said: ok, you be a novel tracker, all your life or you can really get into the end of the tough stuff, and he wanted me to be a strictly for an intelligent and should be an intelligent. Sir, be a case officer saw an ass. I went into the windows, occur, training programme all the training which was terrific, and yet, at the end of that, you ve if you're going to I didn't, want go in the embassy, I didn't want anything to do with the abyss and, of course, that's the career path and in the agency, you've, gotta really gotta be, and yet you gotta be in the embassy cause, that's where most case officers No, it's not for me in this room. Mice will be not official cover and I said.
You'll, be all alone said, sounds great, and so ah so they fixed me up with a cover that was illegal in the country that I went to so I had set my own cover. which meant starting a business and that worked out well, provided good cover covering the business, was afforded me a way of enhancing my ability to collect the kind of intelligence registered sitteth time. This was in south east asia, so vietnam was hot What years after sixty five sixty eight sixty or sixty seven sixty seven sixty eight sixty nine And on this, the countries that I went to was hostile at the time. And soils for exciting to some interesting stuff:
and then the country. When our way the hedges opted for the west. It was a. It was a. It was a battleground country, but from the communist sooner or from the west. It went our way. So now I just got bored, I mean I just got bored, I was. It was with any other countries they put on the plate for you. Well, then, there would have been better your board above, but I was bored. I had a very personal problem we had to do with. We required some professional help and and get it anywhere else, and I had really like starting that business. and so I fired off now patient or reveals a school if you're in your time there it's not like that today, don't think of it as a time they were interested in screwball. Two are sort of under a different kind of backgrounds.
I thought well, you know I'm happy doing what I liked. I got no complaints, I'm headed nowhere. If I can get of school I'll go otherwise I'll keep doing what I'm doing isn't a bit and I got in, and so I fired off her resignation which shocked everybody. Because again I didn't have any complaints. I've been well treated, they said who should quote the rules? The words were shocked and dismayed and I said eh. What can I say? I got no complaints. This has been great just going to do something else, so that was there was at a business school and went back and went back to asia for the next thirty five years. Then what were you doing? What kind of businesses ah well, we were first thing I did was. I was in charge of building the first sheraton in asia. which was the hong kong sheridan, and
this guy in Atlanta who's, the most remarkable business go worked within. It was terrible to start with him because I thought, This is what business was going to be like and I never met another one like it, but either way he was kind of like dick Johnson. You see once you made up once he made her decision on you. That was it. You just backed to the hilt. so we're two weeks a real estate experience one week in his office in one week at the trial grow company in Dallas which, It's the number one real estate company in the whole country. The time I went out he took me out to Hong kong said this issue was, he speaks for me left and it was the deepest hole in hong kong at the time it was the financing was not in place. It was at the tail end of the cultural revolution, so people in hong kongers were still looking for the exit because they didn't know what was going to happen forever is fifty years later was gone. What might have
Banana and so will you basic said, figured out so I got some. screens of that, so it was okay. I mean I didn't really didn't know much or it didn't. Either was talent around at new real estate. It was sorta how to get it all all put together. And my deal on that was a handshake. I worked for mighty low wages for a project. I was the biggest most glamorous project in hong kong. I was basically working for peanuts, but the deal was that he'd give me a steak on my own, because he correctly said we first got acquainted, he said: look I know what you're like you're going to want to go on your own. That's fine! Just promise me we'll do a deal together, so that was a handshake of the scousers. I told you. I've never met anyone like him in the business world anyway, his person life was a shambles. Put his professional life with absolutely perfect. Guy was just behave perfectly business
and which defies usual usual rule. People have about that. Anyway, So the shirt and was in we in in hong kong is the culture of Lucian was was ending in Hong kong was starting to come back because it was such a such incredibly resilient and energetic placed all his johnny's entrepreneurs and, on so project was going good, so I called him- and I said well, I'm ready to I'm ready to to do my own deal. There's this kind silence? He said? Okay, let me know what you do cycle indonesia, dumb ass. I am because I heard I've done. The most glamorous project in Hong kong So what do I do? I leave to go back ethical, backed indonesia, why
monkey on indonesia because offshore lender she was too starring. There was no office space and I created the first office park in indonesia, which was. which is as close as I can make it too perimeter office park in atlanta, georgia fact I went into them said I like to do this in indonesia can never so do your plans actually well. I guess you will never do anything in indonesia, yeah you're, so so. The plans and modify them. No kid in did this office park in Jakarta, which was a roaring success, which is exactly what I should quit This point I thought I was a healthy businessman of thought that was the business anyway. So I stayed in asia for a while, it's more stuff in indonesia by this time we had had one where we had one daughter. Another one on the way in my wife had trouble carrying
it'll be near the right kind of medical facilities. There were none in indonesia, so he moved to Singapore stayed in singapore for the next ten or twelve years or whatever, and I had huge success such a huge failure summit. down like a yo, yo and so I've be basically been connected with asia. Ever since we started first venture capital firm in which was based in hong kong with the grand capital
fond of two million dollars, mostly passing the hat, to people around it about and that that brought me for the first mcdonald's to Asia, which of course was a roaring success made a solid better than we were, and it did a number of other things. First, a k as in asia, the first mcdonald's in his youth for shirt and asia is a great time to be there great time to be there, in thing I loved about southie stages and it was gonna like going through seal train. Nobody knew who your daddy was nobody cared. It was all It's all on. You. You've made your own reputation. That was sto is good with me, and then you know, then the american lawyers and the american banks started coming in and screwing it up. There are four so first time in the history of the world to be their innocence.
I just a sense and have just done stuff for your business things. Net of entrepreneurial drive things but you spent the last few years in africa. Is that right? Yes, and what were you doing there this time? Well, what up I want to have allegedly well what I was always there when I was in burma on a two month, consulting gig that turned out to be a year friend of mine,
I take an overseas ceo with the first of the biggest bank in burma and mentor to the daughters of the owner. A really remarkable guy he is, and nec come on, take a look around cause. They had four hundred and fifty branches and scattered throughout burma, or myanmar, as it's known today and bought half of 'em are out there in the boonies, where they're thirty one to thirty three distant and armies, depending on whose drugs remove in that day, and so in everything was cash. Ninety five percent of that economy is cash was cash, so they were had some security concerns. My my pal came my friend who had worked on some stuff. in china years before us said, come on out and have a look around. We have a couple of months and secure what turned out to be a year during that year. The the military did their coup, so It was becoming a little less inviting for people with our kind of a background.
About this time. But this time I got a call from Africa whom congo says Are you interested in doing a come? A survey let's programme in the gulf of guinea because for the low pursuit of kidnapping and piracy and of orthodox church was shifting from horn of africa gulf of, and I said not understood and surveillance programme, said now you can get a radar. You guys sanction. Rich surveillance is radar you get a radar manufacture. Club august raiders, half ass strange people disappear, I'm nourished, and so if you're interested in a comprehensive solution. I I'd be interested in single. What's that and I said well I'll write it up for you and send you a powerpoint, and I had to do with detection of surveillance, detection, insecure, reliable communications, rapid reaction, force blah blah blah, none of which any of em head
and they said always like this, so I said: ok I'll come, but let's One thing straight up to old, run away from the irs yawls reputation. Does your doing not mine. So the only thing I do. I gotta be able to sign will the EU s company We'll see in a in a us bank account: oh yeah, don't worry no problem for all these look. These places are as corrupt as washington, okay, yeah terrible. a, and so I've been the last three years working on those in several countries and it looks like it's gonna happen. I hope it's gonna happen cos
It's a worthy. It's a worthy way to go out, and eastern congo is where seventy five percent of the river that minerals come from is actually slavery is realised. I am not exaggerating: it's slavery, it's terrible and of ah there, it's it's a worse her eyes. Distinguishing is hardly worth doing, but its argue Worse than the ukraine and yo periodically the west or moisturizer western countries, so not a training, team and baba and they go around, but you have the rotten terrain and it's got no roads or if they do have, their impacts are impassable for most of the year. and how so, how do they? How do how do people move around when they move around and the reverse the bad guys move around and the rivers? The good guys do their remember, your capability and
in all the locals move around in the river. So I know I've finally been a Methodist minister in a semester or you don't have a will I said, never want you the only way you know what's going on out there is you ve got the plane with your staff and you fly out there and then you gotta find them on impasse. the roads, then, when you find him you got no maneuverability and you don't have any way of finding out what you did. What whenever you got, there is a european community, insular communications which are available for you, not access, I say you gotta have a riverine capability as us, how the bad guys move Is he going to have a rapid reaction force and you have got to have the right kind of equipment and you have a ref? Have the right kind of trading in your package,
They also they want to do it and I, a critical part of it has been figuring out how to get them financed, and I think we've got that think. We've got that. Figure it out soft, so we're getting mighty close, but I hate to say we're doing it because you know you're not doing it till you're doing it, but we're we're mighty close and that's what I've been working on it spot for still got a lot of stuff going on way to go. No, it's interesting to just go back the book here for second, you know that way. This all turned out from the corruption of course allowed many idea. Many of the riches of the congo to be exported. It was a country with deep reserves of copper, cobalt, uranium and diamonds. Nineteen. Seventy one mobutu, renamed khan, the country, Zaire.
diamonds ended up surpassing everything as a main export, including cobalt, copper diamonds made made up thirty percent of the country's total exe, fourteen nineteen, eighty nine, but through corruption and fraud actual mismanagement, the entire mining industry was in jeopardy and it should The gdp went from eleven point three percent to mediate to four point: seven percent. Ninety. Ninety four mobutu's ill conceived fiscal programmes drove the country from bad. a worse as the years war on, even as Personal fortunes soared over his the two year reign, he was estimated be worth as much as five billion dollars wall or all facets of life in congo deteriorated. He me contained a presidential services fond that took up tween, seventeen and twenty percent of the government. Budget. He owned national stockin every, surprise relating to
you're in congo, and it was said that no business transaction with a foreigner company was allowed to take place unless a kick back was paid mobutu personally He was the largest shareholder in the bank of cuts. Of consortia and had person. Ownership, either partial or outright in agricultural businesses, mining in manufacturing all province of the country, but is mobutu and his family members and handpicked cronies grew wealthier. The country felt near ruin, The highway road and rail systems were in utter disrepair. The health care system wasn't funded human. its violations were rampant just a few years before mobutu. Would finally leave the scene according to the same, harvard study the country faced or risk averse will disintegration due to hyperinflation the gdp plummeted? was in the economy and substance agriculture. By the end of
ninety ninety five income per capita was only one third, its pre independence levels. Mobutu got forced out of power. Ninety ninety seven, he died in exile or year after that Laurent Kabila took over. I was in the eye, was in sierra leone. In t ninety eight as the war was gone. North and things were getting crazy again in the congo. The echo magua down their working but sounds like your back there now China make make positive impact. There are four four different countries outstanding, what else do we get every is at it? We have to speed it. We have to present day, I think, we're pretty close echo you gonna questions seem out of nowhere, but how singapore right now is a place to live. I was,
singapore, when you were in the declared independence brought after that, as I went down from vietnam before you were allowed to go to sea for her vietnam and ah It was so I've seen the whole the whole transition, the whole growth from remarkable remarkable. What can be done when the corruption is an absolute minimum and you got everybody focused with a strong leader. Ah, Singapore is gardens watch just a garden spot. It's now expensive and now they're there. Now they have a bit of a social problem in at the viscous gotten so expensive they gotta do you gotta do something to keep the spark of a spark going, which was
But yes, the Lee Kuan yew was saw as a multiracial, with all the with all of the I mean just next door in malaysia. There's always the chinese will a problem. They would not Singapore. The andean community in singapore was was small, comparatively small, but extremely important. In Lee, Kuan yew is able to take this team of chinese indians in and a couple of malays and lead that growth, no corruption tolerated ah and unleash the entrepreneurial spirit within the rules.
and it's just munich and extraordinary to watch just extraordinary. I knew those guys and I knew his you know so many of his old team. That's what sarah you know. I can. I can remember when they did the classic thing and came the garment, make garments as gas, because that's where they had to get people employ what he did. What he did was. He gave everybody a steak and six thus the singapore bike by making sure everybody was an owner of their own residents in doing that. He had to get rid of the traditional villages which cause know a lot of people in the west. Just remember when all this is going on and you guys were having to read the new york times in the washington post. How is that? out there- and I was reading the Bangkok post straight in singapore straits times in your card, opposed to the malaysian times all different stuff
look at eight. So here are you remember I can remember when at the start of it all once a year, week, one. You would pick out an expatriate business leader and hang him of not not literally hanging, but you know. just would soon. He was up to something and make an example. K was fair and good. He generally pick the right. I remember how significant was the first time he picked a chinese business leader to make an example of You know that was because it reflected who actually the what was happening in this in the society of the child. four, slowly taking over everything that had previously been colonial, whatever yeah that start out with a factory I'm just a the garment workers, I member how it sees it I'm were in
your poor when they had an outbreak of coral coral was supposed was a was a group hysteria and which the men were afraid it there. The third rooms were ascending into their lower abdomen and they were getting. They got hysterical. This happened and factories had a name for it. I think it was Cora currently in dealing with all I kind of stuff. They went through the whole thing, except they went through it with a guy who's. Who was adamant against corruption? and was focused on on success in what was good for singapore. You're through yours do make it easy format early on early days, because they considered in socialist I'd, take a look around the guys, go back to their headquarters thing
we never listen to the guys who worked without you in during the second world war, never paid any attention to actual achievement. Was commons talks to me and wanted to be it's useful in hong kong and lumumba, lumumba, communists, comics, comics cozumel in my books. Looking for friends, we weren't going to be his friend because the belgians didn't like him and therefore- and we couldn't like him, so he goes to go to go to russia. When I was doing the research for this, I was all starting off with a say. What I'd always thought about a mumbai come to the conclusion that mama was not a hardcore congress. He was just looking for friends and where he can get them money to help him do what he was trying to do. Lee Kuan yew socialism or he wasn't a socialist. He understood what is the understood people you know he understood what it would take to grow and he would listen. He got this dutch economic guy economists in the two of them together put the master plan for what is
from singapore and then not only that he voluntarily step down, I mean dummy. Only dictators have done that anywhere any continent. So anyway, sources. Tenable word. He answer to your question scrape place. I lived there for fifty twenty years, rather germany, Jim any other, closing thoughts. Term limits I support a mirror proceed, forward awesome. Well, you know, before close now, it's wanted to go to the book one. Last time I want to you, you gave a speech at a rate. Union to honour those had fought in the congo, the americans, the cubans, belgians. I think this was two thousand tina that little girl was the fifties commemoration and dumb
here is what you said about these men and not going to read next year. Probably you said these men, these fine men. Will receive no recognition. No metals no rose garden. Thanks They ve always known. That is the way it would be. And they have never asked for more. Why they will have that no one can ever deny them is the respect, admiration and affection of those who were there and who who truly know how bravely and honourably these men performed and, of course, the granite you'd from those who were saved These men had was each other, their mutual, trust, respect their pride. their performance and their dedication to the eradication of communism. There were, expressions of entitlement and are still none they. The conditions, circumstances and threats that were presented and did what were tasked with accomplishing. They were discipline, and proud participants in a historical event. Saving thousands of lives
including those. We are privileged to have with us here today in their desire to salute the rescuers. It is no exaggeration to say that these folks would not have survived that terror without the intervention and performance of these men, fifty years later, there are lessons in these events relevant to today's war on terror. It takes dead, hated men of intelligence, judgment and courage. Willing to go into harm's way to do the job to protect. the lives of the innocent. And today straw, those are perverted political and religious beliefs who seek harm us Please join me and salute the he's deserving men, while sir, we salute these heroes for sure glad we can move. Tell there. story and salute you for your service in- and thank you, sir.
you did for the teams and what you did for. Corddry and for the cause of freedom in the world. Thank you thank you for what you do like he was short. You did. Thank you what you do and what you are going to continue to do, and I really appreciate this because not enough people know about these guys, well or told him now, banks or push lightly, and with that Gmos has left the building defoliant, pretty awesome conversation twenty, you go back to that twenty six years old being in the congo, by yourself of working with ran the mercenaries and foreign, nationals and an putting together to fight a war against insurgents
that's pretty awesome and its pre awesome. He kept referring back to the training right and I think such a huge pardon, and he mentioned Ben malaga. No mention Ben militants. Well in that book in in bed, millions book by by water beneath the walls. You know he. He ties that route back into the. U S, navy, navy in general, and how, when you're on a ship by yourself in the middle of nowhere, you gotta make things happen. Decentralized command. So this incredible. Example of decentralized command. For twenty six year old, lieutenant junior gray s navy to roll out run. A of of counter insurgency in a different country, self, very cool lots of things go on definitely appreciate. Allow also, obviously love here some of those old stories about what training was like
when he sent me some a little bit of a bio. He said no class, twenty nine ie and then he had in parentheses, winter Do you want to? Let me know that it was a winter weaken. He talked about the snow and everything, but yeah, that's stuffs, pretty cool! Is that that's a big difference, though, the winter versus cause you to talk about that here or at the end the day they just hard hearted, it's hard lard, let's face it. Do it's a little bit colder and a little bit older said my, I think my whole week was like a spring, how weak it was like a spring, how we can still colder coronado, oh yeah. I mean it definitely was cold and you're gonna be called, but it wasn't thirty seven degrees which, in a winner, how we got here, can be thirty, seven degrees, these forty one degrees they and an endless anderson, fritz suffering, that happens in the summer time cause your hotter and being hot sucks
in the end, I guess in the winter and summer time years more swollen and more chafed offer. So will you know pick your poison but I think you got it you if you just run the numbers more people quit now week during the winner. the ita, give you just run the numbers you I can I sit here and defend it. I can't be like well, you know it's just as hard knowing if you run the numbers you're going to find a winner, how weak less survivors, if any east coast winter hell week snow on the ground. That's. You know some people. Could you never see that snow, awkward and strategy mention that though, whereas I gave for them in the snow like dale? That's us just psychologically right out the gate. The interesting thing is they're. Gonna get the gun, and they're gonna make you they're gonna push you to your physical limit, like how many pusher. Can you do right now? If I dropped you down and said, I want to do as many pushups as you can. If you give me
two men and a half to lengthen. Ok, you got them in a hurry up, honey. You guess all it polly one when he may be okay, so you do one hundred and twenty pushups and then being a deal. When I tell you, lay down like by the way. How long would it take you to one hundred and twenty pushups, and I dunno one two hundred and forty, hundred twenty five august two minutes. So it's say I drop you down. You do two minutes worth pushups two minutes. We have fourteen more hours to kill first, first phase of buds right, like you could exhaust yourself in every accessing guess what you're going to keep going. Yep gotta keep going yeah, that's that's so so, you're gonna reach your physical limitation reach your mental limitation when you ve freak out staff and stress and all the stuff they're gonna get you going to be thirty. Seven degrees might be forty. Five degrees might be fifty two degrees, but they gonna get. You don't get a bunch of people to quit.
The cool thing? Is you learn that adaptability new learn how to make things happen, which is what Jim has put it put to use: yeah the vietnam and then over in the congo screen the d rock the democrat democratic republic of the congo are some speaking. The things going on. We all have a lot of things corner. You should hopefully we're trying to have a lot of things. Go on, need fuel, Get yourself in shock of you. I just drank to juggle goes what's coolies I feel so good and I'm gonna feel good men feel good It be crash, not in two hours, I'm not going to be coiled up. Watch, no netflix serious, very china low, while they know so. That's all. That's organ after joggerfys, I can't go check that out. We got ready,
by the way, once win win. Jim left, the building jock, I grabbed than aren t ready to drink mark protein, get yourself some of that when a pointless doors around the world while around the country right now we're environment shop number one branded by mid january. That, yes, I am. I thought, process good and good to be military commissaries when there were in hanover We're in dashed doors when wait for a job for shop right. eighty be down and taxes. where its crushing We I was just in taxes, they have the big, they call it. An end cap in the industry and what tat means is Norway and I'll in the grocery. at the end of the isle. There's could be some product there. A whole end that whole end is his job fuel, stuff powder, papa papa
yeah. It's good cause. All these things, like you know when you can kind of compare to others and all this stuff where cause all I have been guilty of this in the past distant past man I need like energy drink or even like one of these little red, drink, proteins or whatever and I just ignore the amount of sugar in their arms. Can they act as man, I'm on the go, I'm leaving all kinds of excuses that are just aren t ease, ready, ready to each other, and the thing is. that is factually true. Where am I came in? Maybe I'm gonna take appalling breakdown If something like this, I do need that protein or whatever sure I could you know so I'll get the of these other. I don't want to name anything though nobody under the bus, but you do get these ready to drink protein, no gas stations, a gas station or a salary level. Something like this and yet like you, if you dare to
add the sugar or these other thing: hey! Listen, honestly! If you remotely care about your health yet and you look at the sugar you're, putting her back yep. Look if I guilty of that I won't I might even looking you know. I mean, I know it's a lie won't you look and you go. Oh thirty, six grams of sugar. Serving size, one servings per container too so you're about to ingest seventy two grams of sugar. Does that that doesn't mean cup for being catabolic that protein not worth it somewhere to. What are you doing your insulin yeah, was and is to pursue in jewish like that is how it used to be for me, where human I'll just pay that price just today look up with every day to today I'll pay that price, and you still you pay. You pay that price, like, of course, you pay the price for the product at the register, but come on that prices going down the street and assume same bra, not anymore man to those whatever
I found a grams of protein grounded. Yesterday I pounded to bits back to back and just got it done. Yeah banana banana yup, no added at no additional cost of your your conscience at all, to clean the clean fuel. We have your dog of your by the way. Listen time more. This is some here's my here's, my anecdotal story, I went to the master at the monster. You Those downstairs monitors. They are certain size, but when I look, Through your standing on staging. You look down to see what the notes are in. Listen I've been blessed knock. Would without my visions, always been good and like a lot of people. My age, my friends, I have classes, but they were. I go. Is to read, or they were eyeglasses to look far whenever I ve been very, very lucky
but you know sometimes you, like especially my eyes, get a little tired. I read a bunch summers serve notices on mom like what is this. This was at the maastricht like haiti, we get bigger down stage, monitors and wesson ignores the same size and acid are using a bigger, is signal. That's the standard. Like oh I can see more clearly. Why is that there's only one variable, that's changed timor and we have ocular nutrition in their so yeah that's a good one. Small element party was, namely small element. I will never. I will take. I would time, orford arrest, my life right now, like a hundred percent. Just off that right, there just incredible? And you know that you're fuelling your body and keeping it in in on the path is freakin, epic, so get time war tried out. Let me know what you think. I think it's frequently,
yet so very good job of your backup check it out. Yeah that mix of time workers. It has a lot of stuff in there, like even vitamins, minerals, all the all the in the anti aging stuff or whatever it's funny. So a mix like that right, where it's not like you know you coffee, it'll. It's like I know. What the coffee's going to do is made me feel more alert, awake whatever all that stuff or whatever, but a mix like that. It's funny how all the little cracks in. Performance keep a bit like the little tea tiny stuff like whether be your vision where they be just a little ache. Where the be like you, falling asleep fast. after or when you wake up like certain, like just things that you just took for granted, because they don't like go down as smoothly I'm telling you with time wars. This is another thing that I am noticing is like. A higher consistent, I want to call it energy, but there's like A higher
It is an energy, but it's not like a spike of energy. It's like! Oh, I just feel more better or better, yet maybe more better, make that the slogan you. You feel like like I'll, be, let's call it. Let's call it seven, forty seven in the morning, workouts done and sometimes in the past it'd, be you know some forty seventh kind of a little little long. You know what I mean like a kind of tired and went for a workout went for a run feeling a little film a little bit of a a downturn. and right now, like feel good, real good. He began again? What's the what's the what's the change, just one change timor, anyways friggin, awesome check it out time war. Talk of your backup, also origin, usa, dotcom god, reading your genes, american,
aids does not just genes, I've Z, but all American made from the cotton grown new in the fields to the men. Factory into the even a little. the on their everything in america. That's a big whatever rather than trying to trick you. These other brands likes a lot of them. They'll, be like only I made in america, some something They make us buttons dammit user and button to how many do I say is you're up to the or button button button, not another silent, a double silent, two teeth button. You know you say button, but either wait, some time, the less we want those buttons made in america, a whole gig and, if you're down for that, that's our origin, usa, dot com, well, a lot of good stuff on there geeze on there to eat out by the way, yeah nano We visit pearl national weave of nano, problematic girl, mental per see them would so I took my home yesterday the year and I have my old desk. He
it's a let's make lets is that I feel you. I feel that great yes, here, that's a good omen fourteen usa, dot com go get something to go through. Also, chocolate stores called chocolate stores is where you can get. Your discipline equals freedom, shirts that's how, if you're representing on this path and we're on the path to be crazy, not to in this day and age, with all this good guidance, there's a lot of negativity actually is a more important reason be on what works in the past year has known as the path. I note said the other day, which weird is, I know where's the other day. So, listen, I'm not! You know some people bring more. You bring more life like those kind of things at a watch out for negativity and- gimme some more, those all things like a negative people caught them away. Like all the other continents, I have heard that a lot in my life and I've always not thought much of it. It didn't really mean much to me. You know to me it was like oh yeah gonna stay positive. I didn't think that was a thing but another dunno, something like in the last week, where
it was like, I saw bunch a negative things. All the virtual prisoners, like that, what people me and you could get I into that negativity and it didn't really make sense to me before- has never really been a temptation for me to be negative or get sucking. The negative think and is also such an instinct. For me to be like I'll call, you gonna problem, cool gonna, go crush it. That's positive thinking. I never thought too much about that, but now I'm like oh, I get it so watch out for that negativity meal The stand that sounds so I ain't on the path by the work. Yes, sir, and after represented on it. That's this is where you can eat stuff. Jungle store dot, com, yep, it's not a it's, not a placebo. Remember when you were a kid and you got new sneakers and you've got to run you rent. You ran faster, yes, no doubt about it. This is like you get a four locker teacher, I was a new more disciplined while the shirt locker sure that's like for us, enjoying yourself on the path
so we kind of go out color we color outside the lines every once in a while with the shirt, locker, stuff, they're, fun, new design every month. That's the that's! The subscription want, but you're wearing discipline equals freedom, and you choose to work out with that shit. You know you're on that shirt, either the general use. Given that work I go down to zero deserve not now possible, not possible, So there you go subscribe to this podcast as well, subscribe to Jocko underground, subscribe to the youtube channel, the origin, usaid, your youtube channel, the jackal fuel youtube channel I'll, go to flipside canvas, dot com and get something pretty hang on. Your wall got a bunch of books. Let's get this book cold war navy seal by james m Haas and mary ann conic africa. mention Marianne cornick, but she also helped right the book, so there you go cold war, maybe she'll punch of really interesting stuff read so weird again. I was about this regime when we were off line.
Is just like the I went to the. the seal team, one anniversary, a little while back. Sixty year anniversary but I also went to the thirty year anniversary and so thirty years before that, that's when seal team one got made, so this is All like I've been around. I knew your around people that are generally generationally. All part of this group can wild but a lot of those historical things. I mention item with no one about the the or in the congo. That's a thing, and now you're sitting here talking to german he's literally worked directly with lieutenant colonel mad. Mike or like that's crazy, to think about crazy to think about. So anyway, check out his book check out a bunch of books that I've written finals, ban leadership, charging tattoos field manual, a bunch of budget box.
we have a leadership consultancies collection, national front? If you want me to help from a leadership perspective inside your organization, go to echelon, front dot, com, We also have an online training academy, because leadership and life is not something that you just are able to this cruise through and know what to do you? Don't None of us do that's what we, this training academy online, go to extreme ownership. Dot com common check out some of our free classes? To just you when you take a free gradually. Oh I get it this weird skills, I was you noticed on it the troops on, so we go question on the economy, the other guys. My boss is not being transparent, not told us. What's going on my star yo be a little bit of a problem with the team was like hey here's. What you're gonna need to do everyone. That's on this call. It's a warning to all alive webinar on extreme of darkness Everybody! That's on this call right now if you and we all we ought
ownership. We all subordinate our ego. We all prioritize relationships. We all work to build trust and will listen, tutor! That's what we're doing and if you're doing that you are better at relationships and leadership. The ninety nine percent of the world So when you ve got your boss, that's not behaving like a good leader. you're, the one that has to use these techniques to help them closed. The gaps on their leadership, which is a powerful thing right It's like you're trying to build a house like goes over here on watch, All echo, your building, a house for me and I go in and also unless you like echo, doesn't have a scheme or to make sure that the that the walls are square and I'm like hey bro. No, it's all good. I got this square right here and you're like oh thanks, I'm! Actually helping him It is not my job, I know you you're. The house builder bottomest was to sit back and watch my house because crooked may
you don't have that Maybe you don't you not good at plumbing so I got him out. Let me help you with that plumbing. When we felt when we fill in the gaps. Are you ok dry walls, not you not quite that could have a dry waller. Let me give you a hand, so I'm just making these now listen to your leader. You should be doing this yourself and accept the whoa that is all messed up, but guess what I got to live in the house yeah so go to show more sugar common, learn these skills, and then you can help you or you can help your peers. You can help your subordinates and by way, just f, why you don't help them by saint, hey echo, you got a major problem with your leadership. Not must not what you you can make a difference if you use the indirect approach, So that's what we're doing go to tree ownership dot. We will help you learn to lead it'll, make everything in your life better and if you wanna help service members active and retired, you wanna helped her their family. His gold star family check out, mark liese, mom mama
at a cherry organization and if you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to america's mighty warriors dot, org and also don't forget. How might affect who last report was right in a mountain lion through the wilderness, and he was rescuing a small bear from a tree so last december, you know, go to heroes and horses dot org he's out there wilderness, helping veterans find themselves, and if you want a crack with us, echo is adequate. Charles. I am at java willing we're on the airy social media platforms, but just just be advised You think those social media platforms are there for you. There there for your benefit they're, not there there for their benefit. Be careful because they got algorithms, better gonna, try and go
thanks once again to Jim hawse for coming out in sharing his experiences and lessons learned and more important thanks to Jim for all, he did too court and defend democracy around the world. An especial thanks to those who served with him aligned with freedom, the cubans, the belgians, the americans, who fought and continue to fight clandestine wars to protect the cause of freedom and So thank you to our police and law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, empties dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol. Secret service in all first responders. Thank you for fighting to keep us safe here at home and everyone else out there It's not gonna get things serve to you on a silver platter gear Gonna get the money that you need. You're, not gonna, get the support that you want you're, not going. blessed with a perfect team of people that have the proof,
set of skills, you're not going to get any of that the way life is, but like Jim horse, you still have to figure it out. You have to make it happen. You have to create something for nothing and if you do that, you too can achieve victory and you do that by get out there every day and getting after it, and until next time is echo and jacko out.
Transcript generated on 2023-04-21.