This is jocko podcast number 428 with echo charles and me jocko willing good evening echo good evening I'm sorry. After a lifetime of dieting, my patient Layla decided she had had enough. Shear old chef who suffered from rheumatoid arthritis that left her fatigued and in pain. 317 pounds when she started treatment with me. The medication she needed to keep her immune system is in check, kept packing... On pounds and draining her energy, she was close to giving up. My first goal for Layla was to help her move the needle on the scale to give her the boost Of an early win, step one was to get her moving. She began walking on her lunch break and incorporated three additional 10-minute walks Next, we got Layla started with resistance exercises to assist with quality weight loss that decreased fat tissue without...

Sacrificing muscle. Once we got Layla moving we focused on her nutrition. We anchored her first and last meals with protein and she eliminated all snacking. Within seven months, Leila had lost nearly 60 pounds. Thanks for watching! As exciting and rare as that weight loss was. It wasn't even her big accomplishment. She was most proud of the health benefits that flowed once her body composition shifted. Her joint Pain decreased allowing her to reduce her arthritis medication, her blood markers such fasting insulin, blood glucose, triglycerides, which can gauge the risk of coronary Artery disease all improved. The most inspiring part of her story though was realizing that her body wanted to get stronger.

Success Layla grew less hungry and more encouraged She could not believe how easy it was for her to feel so much better And that right there Is an excerpt from a book called forever strong, which is written by dr. Gabrielle lion Bye bye. Who studied nutrition and exercise and has helped scores of people change their health. She wrote recently wrote this book which has got all kinds of information in it much of which Much of this information is contrary to what others recommend And she's here tonight to share some of that information with us Gabrielle Thanks for joining us. Thank you so much for having Me yeah this is um I when I said when I was when I was thinking about this and I

Talking about the fact that much of the information in this book is contrary to what others have said That being said their head Been a groundswell over the last decade that leans certainly more in the direction of what you talk about and advice eyes compared to what it was in the 80s and 90s. Would you agree with that? I would. It's slow though. Yeah. Oh, it's definitely been slow. I would say that your focus being Very much so I would say leaning a little bit more into protein and muscle like I mean that's kind of where Would say you're even a little bit more pro protein and pro muscle, which I am also pro protein Pro-protein or Pro-Echo Charles? - Yes sir. - Pro-protein? - Confirmed. - Pro-muscle? - Yes sir. - 100%? - 100%.

I guess before we jump into this or as we get into this, as we get into how you landed there, I kinda wanted to go to the book and just get a little bit of background on you. You say this in the book when I was younger I obsessed about food and my body weight I felt hungry all the time and couldn't seem to curb my appetite I cycled through an array of fad diets everything from seasoned determined seasoned Determined macrobiotic to all organic sprouted and vegetarian. What's is sprouted still a thing even the sprouts? Yeah, yeah, okay. Well then again, yeah echo do you eat that? No, not on a regular basis. No sprouts is you're literally planning stuff in your kitchen right and growing them on your shelf Yes, yes, so my father-in-law is down for the sprouts. Okay, very cumbersome. I mean again, it's growing something - Yeah, it's a little micro farm in the house. Oh yeah. Then, before I knew better, my meals were heavily skewed toward an unbalanced diet of carbs.

Considered healthy with whole grains like brown rice barley millet Oaks oats and corn I ate locally grown vegetables beans and bean products like tofu misu am I saying that right and Tempe I have heard of Tempe And see vegetables like seaweed nori and agar am I getting those right you are things I haven't your secret eating these things. No my kids used to eat seaweed the seaweed from like Trader Joe's little plastic Crunchy crunchy see or naughty. Yeah, this is see we do see we good for you. It is my kids like crazy easy. I was chasing after increased energy health and athletic performance, but all my careful planning was rooted in misinformation I spent hours of each day on food acquisition obsessing over every tiny detail to get it right in quotes

Voided parties and brought my own snacks. I avoided parties or brought my own snacks. I exercised easily 14 hours a week. My focus on food and exercise was on. Healthy largely largely because I thought meeting a baseline of wellness required a diet and training program demanding that much effort while my intentions were good This behavior grounded in my flawed understanding of health devastated my body and mind. After two years I found myself exhausted and malnourished. Simply put I had been unintentionally starving myself of the nutrients I needed. Finally my body's response to growing deficiencies was to start binge eating. Developed an incredibly disordered relationship with food that stemmed from my ability to regulate hunger. All right. How old were you and all this was going down 18 like so

16 to 18 was this teenage years first two years of college first two years of college. So when you were in high school You sort of into the food thing as as hard when you were in high school. What were you doing? Were you playing sports? Were you what was going on dance? Remember the ballet team? No, so the drill team I don't know if you remember that. Yeah my One of my daughters was a ballerina and so that's a different level of dance And if you told me that you were very focused on food Because of ballet, I'd be like, oh yes you were, 'cause that is a highly, highly disciplined activity. And it's a little bit, in my opinion, psychotic. Right? Did you ever, were you ever around ballerinas? - I was not. I mean, yes, I have been around ballerinas. We've had a handful of ballerinas. Very very disciplined very hard and they're also very concerned about weight so They're very concerned about weight. So that

It's a little bit crazy my daughter that did ballet had more injuries that my other daughter than my other daughter that did gymnastics and Wrestling so that kind of that kind of tells you something So you but you were doing the dance the coordinated dance thing. Yeah was halftime events in football you know the pretty athletic dances those not cheerleading but what we would call drill team Are you flipping? - Yeah, they did all kinds of things. - Are you getting thrown around? - No. - No? - I mean, yes, you could be, but. And was that your main athletic pursuit actually prior to that I did track and also gymnastics Okay, how long did you do gymnastics for a couple years? Okay, did You train more than two hours a day of gymnastics? There's a certain point with gymnastics where the kids go from training like one hour a day to like five hours a day. - Right. - And I'm talking 10 or 11 year old kids. It gets crazy pretty quick.

- So that can happen with anything. But you got out of it before that went crazy. - I did, I got out of that. I was interested in soccer too. I tried all these different things and ultimately I landed on dance. When you were doing dancing was that when you started like looking at yourself in the mirror and thinking about how you looked no in fact, I I didn't even think about it and Food, relationship to food had nothing to do with how I looked. - You mean in your mind you didn't make that connection? - No. What were you eating? Were you eating, were you lean, were you just lean 'cause you were young and you were just dancing all the time? - Yes, naturally athletic, never thought about body weight. Um... And I graduated high school early and I moved to Hawaii. I moved in with my godmother who, it was a PhD in nutritional sciences and I became very fascinated with. - Nutrition. - Wait, so what age was this? - I graduated high school, I think I had just turned, graduated in three and a half years, so I had just turned 17 maybe.

So you turned 17 you moved to Hawaii. Are you still what are you doing for activities now like for active lifestyle? And I yes, I was lifting I was I was probably training about two hours a day. - What were you training for? - Nothing, I just loved it. You were lifting weights you were doing squats. I was you're doing deadlifts. Well, I don't know if I was doing deadlifts, but I was Squats and machines at that time. That was very exciting. - And the goal for you doing this was what, in your mind? - It was fun. - You just liked working out. - Yeah. But were you trying to like add more to your squat? No. You see what I'm saying? I'm trying to figure out. I wasn't. I was. - It was just very, I had no set goal. I wasn't thinking, you know, I'm squatting 200 pounds, I need to squat 210. At any of that. - Were you looking at the mirror thinking, oh my arms look stronger right now, that looks cool? - No, we don't really think like that.

- No, I just-- - Were you looking at your abs or were you looking at some part of your body? - I was naturally, athletically pretty fit. And to this day, it's just there's a component to genetics where you, if you have started training early, you maintain the way that your body looks. And for me, I just loved being outside, I loved exercising, I thought it was amazing and I started to then get into health and wellness and thinking, well, you know, like this is this path forward and I didn't necessarily do it right. And I would So interested in more of the natural alternative treatments and the natural eating. But there wasn't a lot of guidance at that time and there wasn't a lot of information in terms of... Dietary protein like this is way before protein this was really if you wanted to go somewhere healthy then you're gonna go to the health food store and that's

information maybe there's gonna be some flyers on the wall or you'll pick up a book that was written. In the 70s, there was a diet for a new planet, I don't know exactly when that came out. But you kind of turned backwards to look for current and future information, which is unusual. But no, I really was interested. In the health and wellness and what that could do. My godmother at the time who's a PhD in nutrition was seeing patients who had cancer, was seeing all kinds of health and wellness challenges, and that's where it kind of clicked for me that this was amazing. I was going to do this. - This being. Nutrition yeah, you said you had you know in the There that I just read you said you had an unhealthy relationship with food. What does that mean expand on that? So then I

I got to college, I decided I was gonna study nutritional sciences. - Oh, so this is when you got to college? - Yeah. Living in Hawaii for? About a year. And what were you doing at the time for work? I was working for room and board. Room and board. What's the - I was living with my godmother, this PhD in nutritional sciences. Kids around. - Okay, you were like a nanny, grocery shopper, mowing the lawn, whatever needs to happen. - Not mowing the lawn, but yes. I was doing all the other things other than mowing a lawn and planting. Okay. Yes Not even sprouts? - No, no sprouts or whatever else you wanted to include on that list. And... The unhealthy relationship with food really happened in college. Because I started studying nutritional sciences and I don't know about but I am the kind of person that when I want to know something, I'm just all in and obsessive.

Year is it when you start college? Oh god, that's one time I graduated in so I graduated medical school in 2006 so I started gosh College might have been 1999. Does that sound? 99 okay, so that makes sense. So at that time I'm thinking about We know what I knew in 1999 1997 1998 1999 I remember this is in 1998 is when I first realized this is when I started understanding what carbohydrates did and that they Might not be the best thing because in the 90s it was like I remember talking to guys that were like, oh, we're cutting all fat out of our diet. - Yes. - And they were doing that and you--

They would replace those with carbohydrates and I remember team guys that we you know, we'd be talking about nutrition because we want to be strong when I'm healthy and then Eventually I saw I got a copy of the Atkins book which I'm sure you've read so that the Atkins books which was written in the 70s and That was the first book that and I got that in 1998 And so that's when I was like, oh wait a second all these Carbohydrates that we're eating are not gonna be that good for you and the fat that we're eating isn't this thing to be totally scared of which is Absolutely what was being said in the 90s. So yeah, it makes sense as you're getting to college in 1999 You're gonna study nutrition and what do you what are you starting to learn and you're talking about being obsessed with it? Yeah

So I get to college and I happen to, I don't know if you believe in synchronicities, but I happen to get into the class of, excuse me, a guy named Dr. Donald Lehman. And I think probably just as you experience in leadership, when you are in front of someone who is truly an expert and truly legendary, you know. And when I had got to, I went to the University of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana, when I got into his class, it was like nothing that I had learned before. This is a world leading expert in protein metabolism. And it changed the way that he thought about things. And the way that he was able to put things together changed my perspective on nutrition. At the time, I was thinking about, you know, what is the food guide pyramid, and it's a high carbohydrate, it was very low fat diet. I was starving, I was training, I was hungry, I couldn't keep it together. other.

Then I got into his class and he really started to show and prioritize this idea of dietary protein and skeletal. Muscle and he did some of the earlier studies the way in which we think about protein now came out of some discoveries from him. He was the guy, he's one of the guys that created this idea and discovered. How we dose protein. I mean that's, I know it sounds as if it's something that we all take for granted. Like yeah, obviously we know protein makes stronger muscles but we didn't know that. - Yeah, no, I. Agree with you. Like I said, I remember in the 90s having these conversations the conversations were about fat the conversations were about carbs Conversations really weren't that much about protein. Not that they were gone from the from the conversation because we did take protein shakes, I mean I've

I had my first freaking Joe Weider super weight gain 2000 like in the 80s, you know what I'm saying echo Charles So we were trying to get protein to build muscles, but it definitely was it was the kind of the Background noise over fats which were bad and carbs which Were good was kind of the thing. Protein was sort of this other thing that was the thing. - That's the third part of the conversation, the subdued part of the conversation. - And it still is. We haven't even changed the guidelines since the 80s. - Their recommendations haven't changed. We've been hyper focused on carbohydrates and then fats and they change back and forth. You know, which one is worse. And then there's the black sheep of the macronutrient family that is now dietary protein. And what's so fascinating is.

The way in which the recommendations are set, which haven't changed since you guys were drinking protein shakes, are based on a minimum amount to prevent deficiencies. How individuals are thinking about it. And now we have this somewhat of a political influence or an agenda influence about How cows and animal products are killing the planet, etc., etc., red meat consumption by the way, and it doesn't have to be a red meat conversation, but the consumption of red meat since 1975 is down 40%. I only mention that because we hear a kind of narrative that further. Or delineates us from being able to take actionable steps to achieve good health. 70% of American Are either overweight or obese. 70%? Are you kidding me? - Mm-hmm, yeah. - I mean.

You see those pictures now they're circulating you can go check them on the interwebs, but it'll be a picture of California Beach 1956 and everyone looks good and then they'll put next to it, California California Beach 2016 and everybody looks like junk and and These people didn't know about working out. They didn't they didn't know like what we know about working out We've learned so much about lifting in the past Ten years it's incredible. So these people in 1956. They didn't know anything about that. They were just doing whatever they were doing and yet Were in pretty good shape when you looked in on the beach in California and So what was the big change? Well if red meats gone down for? That's definitely an indicator is that but again, it's a correlation But I think that we've had a rise of these processed foods and it doesn't

And here's why it matters to us, is that when we have these dietary guidelines, these dietary guidelines influence anyone that gets federal funding. They influence the military, they influence nursing homes, they influence schools. So if... If we have a certain guideline that is set in place, it affects people to a degree that it's almost like, I don't wanna say it's unfair, but the effect that it will have on children, military, and aging individuals is, it's tremendous. And so we really should get that right. Yeah, I guess you could boil that down to just looking at school lunches right if the recommended guidelines are wrong and they're building the school lunch based on the recommended guidelines which are wrong. The school lunches I had growing up were trash. I guess that's a general thing with school lunches.

At least if they said, oh, you have to have more protein in there, 'cause they don't, I don't remember, the protein would be a slice of ham and stacked between two big pieces of bread with a piece of cake and some potato chips. The carrot, right? That would be your four fruit groups. - The lone carrot. The book real here real quick cuz it kind of talks up through this transition for you You say although I prioritized Whole Foods. I'd completely missed the mark on protein just like so many the people I've encountered over the years. I was keeping an intense exercise regimen of one hour cardio plus one hour of weight training daily, under eating protein left my body. Starved for extra fuel all the carbs I ate kept me hungry and at the mercy of Constant blood sugar peaks and crashes once I added high quality Strategically consumed protein to my diet my suffering began to ease finally I had Control of my hunger proper nutrition helped my body recover from my workouts and supported new growth so I could

Finally see the results of the effort I've been putting in muscle started forming in my whole body changed. So did my outlook? Looking eventually my life instead of subtracting foods and activity from my life. I started adding my struggles with regulating my physiology I had left me hungry not just for food but for understanding too. Discussions about carbohydrates fats and proteins I quickly learned how charged and layered with confusion nutrition can be nearly every Outlasted any romantic load relationship they'd ever been in seeking answers in academia I noticed that many of my classmates had come to study nutrition out of their own frustrations with food and diet How had nutrition a boat become? Such a touchy subject. Why did people eat the foods? They ate? Why did some struggle with weight and food obsession for a lifetime with so little?

Progress these initial questions led me to a life spent treating people Here's your little shit the lessons I've learned so Do you remember the Transition when you started adding protein into your diet? Like how did you go about it? This is gonna be ridiculous to hear. And also as I'm listening to you read this, you're probably thinking, gosh. Two hours a day, that's a day off for me, for you guys. So I have to acknowledge. Two hours a day if you're if you're doing two hours of hard cardio and two hours of hard lifting That's that's that's that's a lot. That's a lot of workout I always tell people if you do something really hard for 10 minutes, I mean I've got workouts 10 minutes long That'll make me need a day Have to recover so yeah, that's a lot of work That's a lot of work for a human being and especially people that listen to us that normal people with nine-to-five

- Jobs and kids and families. - That's a lot of volume. - That's a lot of volume, so. - So I do remember when I started adding protein back in. I was largely vegetarian. I was almost vegan. I ate very little protein. I the first thing that I started to add in was chicken and I actually felt really guilty and think about it Think that there's also a lot of young women guilty about Like I'm putting bad food in my body guilting about killing a chicken killing a chicken. Okay, and it's interesting because Because back then, I still think that there are these processes. How many girls do you have? Three girls, one boy. Three girls. I think that all girls-- again, I-- can just speak to my experience and my friends' experiences and seeing a lot of younger girls in my clinic is that-- They all seem to go through this dietary transition and they, you know, at some point potentially

they feel very bad about eating animals. And I don't know if your girls experienced that, but I-- Definitely remember when I was making the decision, my teeth felt loose, my hair was-- - How long did you keep up with it for? - At least two years. At least two years, I was largely vegetarian, if very close to vegan for two years. My hair started falling out. - Milk? - No. - Eggs? - No. I maybe had a little bit of fish. And I was training, I felt like my teeth were loose. I felt my hair was falling out. I just felt terrible. When I added in that chicken, but I couldn't believe how much better I felt. In an instant. - I read a book one time, it's called The Vegetarian Myth. It's by a woman named Lierre Keith. And I don't know how, I'm gonna remember.

Books, this is a long time ago, too, but she was in terrible health She was a vegan and she was just falling apart kind of like what you're saying hair falling Out depressed, sad, just her body composition was terrible. She went to a bunch of doctors and they'd say well, what are you eating? She's like, I can't be my diet I'm a vegan like I eat perfectly clean Finally one doctor said that's your problem and she was in a state of disbelief but then she got to a point where she didn't have any choice because she was gonna die and forget what I think the first thing that she ate was like a tuna fish or something and she Described it as she like put it to her mouth. She felt like this ground and like her soul was being replenished. And it was kind of like what you're-- Same similar thing where she's falling apart hair falling out like just feels terrible and

then turn around, she knew. She writes that when she ate that, she knew that that's what she'd been missing. You know, it's so fascinating. I've studied nutrition now for 20 years, and it's the one thing that we all do. We all have to eat. Yet, the variations that we-- have it's one of the only things that I can think of that we have an incredibly varied approach to. There's no way that you eat the same as Echo, and myself, you take every single. Person in your gym, I guarantee you there's not one person throughout the day that is eating the exact same amount of iron or zinc, etc. Yet it's the most important thing that we do and we have no standard way of doing it. Everybody's a little bit different, right? - Yes. - So you might need more protein, I might need less.

Protein, you might need more fat, I mean, and depending on what I'm doing, there might be a, if I'm going hunting in the mountains, I might need more fat, if I'm going to compete Jujitsu I might need less fat so there's all these other elements that come into play as a human correct that you You gotta kinda know your, to read your own gauges a little bit. - Yes, and what's so fa-- There's ways to test for it now. I mean, it's not solely about body composition. We've certainly gotten more advanced in where we can test for-- and mineral deficiencies, et cetera. But it is fascinating that the nutrition.

Space is so confusing. It seems as if nobody agrees on any kind of foundational principles. And if the ultimate outcome is being able to get after it your entire life, we have to put things in place so that people at least have a chance. I was trying to do everything right. I was literally studying nutritional sciences. And even at the academic level, which I continued on and ended up doing a fellowship in this, people still were disagreeing on the one thing that we all do aside from breathe. - And people will continue to disagree. Well, there was a while and look my wife and I were we get along great There was a little while where she told me she never says stuff like this to me. She told me hey

You're not allowed to talk about nutrition with my friends. And a couple of her friends were nutrition science, they'd gone to school for nutrition science. And so they had probably gone in the 80s, right? You know, this is my age group. In the 80s, early 90s, that's when they graduated. So when I'm in there telling them, you don't need any carbohydrates at all, they're like, are you kidding me? And-- Finally just said hey don't talk about nutrition with my friends anymore, and I was like okay cool, whatever But the interesting thing is they all kind of came around. They all eventually as the I guess science caught up to the world and especially as it caught up to academia it seems like they made progress. It's very slow. How long was it when you got in this class with dr. Layman? So you get in this class with dr. Layman? He starts talking about protein

Take for you to go I need to up my protein. I need to start eating meat. How long did that take? Pretty quickly pretty quick. I can you know, he's still my mentor today. That book is dedicated to him it's pretty unusual to have a mentor relationship 20 years of 27 Years pretty quickly. So you go through that and now You're starting to feel good Then you decide hey, I'm just gonna go all the way up nutrition I'm good. I'm good with nutrition now I'm gonna go gonna continue On this path? - No, there was a, I was sitting in a class of, a nutritional science class with, there's two tracks, it was dietetics and medicine. That's pretty much how you. How you do it. And there was a tornado warning and we all had to go to this tornado you know the the the um...

Cornfields of Illinois lend itself to tornadoes. And I was sitting in the fallout shelter, I swear it felt like for hours. and I was sitting there with a bunch of people from the nutrition class and I just felt useless. I felt like a useless piece of shit. - Why? A moment of emergency, I had no skill set to do anything valuable. - Got it. - And to be of use is a value of mine and has been a disadventure. Driving force to actually really be of service to people, and I couldn't do anything. And it was at that moment I decided to go to medical school. - Okay, okay. So you apply to medical schools and you end up going to Arizona College of Osteopathic Medicine. That's where you end up going to. And how's this?

- That's cool. What do you learn? Are you focused on nutrition? What do you focus on there? - So I get to medical school. I thought that, and I chose-- - Osteopathic school, so there's two types of physicians that carry the same license. I'm not sure if you guys are aware. Had to study it yesterday. I had to figure it out two days ago when I was prepping for this podcast I had to figure out the difference between the osteopathic medicine and Medical doctor. And it's also important for people that are overseas that are listening. I think medicine in America is a lot different than osteopathic medicine in every other country, as a matter of fact. So in America, if you're-- MD medical doctor or an osteopathic Doctor either one of those you can prescribe medicine you can and do surgery, it's just that you have this additional sort of coverage. Which is on sort of the whole body functioning together as a big unit. That's what it is.

Overseas an Osteo, I don't know if they call it osteopathic doctor, but an osteopathic sociopathic medicine - Listen, practitioner in most countries overseas can't do surgery, from what I understand. They can't prescribe-- and they're like an advisor, they can definitely help you with your nutrition. They might even, correct me if I'm wrong, Massage and things like that. I I have no idea. Okay, um But you chose this path because you wanted this sort of holistic view of yes medicine. Yes, and I was very interested in skeletal muscle Are absolutely correct in the US and MD, DO, they're the same, the training is the same. In fact, I did an MD fellowship. There's no restrictions on. Licensing, the opportunity that a DO has is we get additional training for musculoskeletal manual therapy, if in fact we want to use it and we also In manual therapy that means massage. No, no, I'm sorry. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's not massage. It's actually for example

your shoulder hurt. I would look to see is it coming from your neck, is it coming from somewhere else. It's training in the way that the body functions as a unit. - Got it. So that's. Kind of the, and many osteopathic physicians don't practice that. It's just additional learning that they don't practice. - Which is weird, 'cause doctors also, if you have a problem with your shoulder, Right I mean normal blockage you know - yeah so basically it's it is a training and I would say there's some philosophical view that the body is an entire unit and that it functions as more of a holistic perspective. At least when I was training, I think that it's there's less delineation now It seems like there's much less they actually know that's Articles that I read about it says that this has become closer and closer together less and less differences We're going to two in the past decade or so. Yeah, I would agree with that

You're going to school. You're going to college. You didn't like it. Ah, I was like should I quit this? This is terrible. How long is it? Is it four years? Yeah - No. - 'Cause you don't like studying what-- - I love studying, it was all pathology. It was all what is wrong with the body, what goes wrong. And we spend all of this time looking outward, trying to fix these problems, as opposed to what is the foundational perspective. That we have. You know, we are more overweight, we're sicker, we have all these problems, and we're still we're looking for quote solutions. But from my perspective, what if the solution is getting your lifestyle right? Instead of continuing to spend $4 trillion a year on x, y and z to further the health of Americans.

And I think that we have a lot of the answers. So I hated medical school. I thought that it was just, I don't know anyone who really likes it, but my husband, he kinda liked it. It was cool for him. But yeah, I thought many times I was gonna quit. And by the time I finished medical school, I had thought to myself, maybe I won't even go to residency. Maybe I won't even go to additional training. So the last minute I apply. To three places, which is unheard of. So my husband, who was a SEAL, was a medic in the teams, he applied, I think he might have applied to 30 programs, or something like that, 30 programs. - And you go to Rutgers? - So he went to medical school at Rutgers, and then he graduated top of his class.

- Actually. - Of course. - Not bad for a-- - He's a team guy. He's getting after it. He's not gonna let anybody beat him in anything. - No, it was, you know, it's so funny, 'cause we're all like, ah, I don't know if this medical school is gonna just crush it, publish like 12 papers, graduate with honors, the whole thing. So when he finished, he applied to 30 programs. When I finished, I applied I think to three places. I'm like, I'm not doing this. And I don't care if anyone accepts me because this was a terrible choice. Um. I applied to Mayo Clinic, which I actually got accepted. I, and that was for family medicine, and then I applied to University of Louisville for psychiatry, and I think I applied one more place. I did the interviews, and I actually got accepted to all of them, okay, fine, and then decided to do psychiatry for two years. And I thought that if I had to do something, I'm going to learn

What it takes to function and be mentally tough. I really thought that psychiatry was all about how do we progress the way that we think. Residency as a psychiatry so psychiatry can use again. I'm ignorant We'll talk to you, psychiatrist will prescribe you drugs. Is that right? - It's a combination of both. I actually found my-- my training in psychiatry really valuable. And also very intense. It wasn't what I had anticipated, nor what I had expected.

At the University of Louisville, they have an emergency psychiatric unit and it has armed guards, it is a small box and they put everybody together, whether you have schizophrenia, bipolar, you name it, but they have all of these people in the same room. I can't say that it's very safe, right? They have bulletproof glass behind the intake area and it became so clear to me that the brain is an organ system, that it is free.

Fully its own organ system, just like the lungs can get pneumonia, the brain can get sick. It was very fascinating. But there was a moment in time where I felt like, You know, this really isn't for me. And I was working in the psychiatric ER, because you have to do that, as part of your rotation. And they brought a body in. And it was of a 21-year-old kid who had jumped off of this six-story parking garage. He broke every bone, and, you know, he died. And his dad was an orthopedic surgeon.

At the hospital. And I had to tell them. And it was at that moment that I just thought, you know, this, this is not what I had thought it was. And this isn't where I was really going with this nutrition and etc. and all the things. And so that really that really struck me. - How long, so this is a two year residence. - No, it was four, so I left after two years. - Oh, okay. Your two years of your dealing with people that have Are suicidal, they're violent. What's your day to day, just talk me through like a average day. - Yeah, well you know.

It varies depending on what rotation you are on. But a typical rotation would be you would check in, you would go into the lockdown unit. So they have a lockdown unit at the hospital. And you obviously have your patients. There's a code to get in. It is a very sterile environment. And people are typically highly medicated. And I'm not trying to paint a picture of mental illness for the world. This was just my experience and this was what the rotation of what my day to day was like. It wasn't always safe. There were multiple times in this tight lockdown unit where the physicians were attacked, where the it wasn't... And it wasn't abnormal for a person to require restraints. I mean, this was real mental illness. And you round on these patients, you--

of care teams. There was no nutritional intervention. They were eating the same crap that, you know, comes from Pop Tarts, etc. And nothing was done. These guys weren't exercising. It was... It felt almost, and I haven't been to prison, but it felt almost as if these guys were imprisoned for their own safety. Um... And so that's what a day to day would be. And then if you were on call. - So you're going to see a patient. Tell me about a patient. Like what's going on with the patient? - I had one patient that, I'll tell you a story, another one that really struck me. I had one patient who had a schizoagoritis. And he had been actually in prison because he he'd burned his house down with his family in it. And and so are when you go to interact with him. Yes. What is your goal in interacting with him? It is, you know, to get a sense of how

His medications. Because it's not like they're gonna release him to the world. No no he goes he had been in I don't know if it was prison, but he had been in a different type of lockdown unit. Again, there's flux whether they have to come to the hospital for. Whatever their challenges are because people also get sick, whether they have an infection, etc. So the typical, that was an example of a patient, you know, when you're reading the history and you have to determine what their blood levels are, are they stable on a certain medication, and what does it come, what do I mean by stable? Are they hearing voices? Are they taking their medications? Are they checking their medications? What is the sense of, are they alert and oriented? and I'm not going to be able to help you. That you could progress over you were there for two years. Did you see anyone progress to the point? we're like, okay this person can go back out of the world and and...

Yeah, or were you in a such a severe ward that these people are never gonna get anywhere well again, we go through rotations and You know part of it is a handful of months on this lockdown unit and then it's in the emergency psychiatric So you don't, the only continuity of care you have is in your own clinic. So you are required also to see patients on a one-on-one basis and those individuals typically are much more stable and in terms of progression yes there was one I had one woman And who she was already living in the regular world. Regular world, I don't know if there's a--

better way, a non-lockdown unit. But that, yes, so there was some progression. But at the same point, I would see frequent fliers. And at one point, I had gotten followed. And again, the brain has its own illnesses where this person had created delusions about me. And I had been followed and all of these things. So I had to have security escort. Every time I would go to the hospital and escort me back out of the hospital for a period of time Who comes into an emergency psychiatric ward on a Friday night on a Saturday night? Like what are you dealing with in that those scenarios? I can share with you how I dealt with it, which was different than the way that the other residents dealt with it. That will come in the typical was if someone had a bipolar

episode, maybe they were manic, maybe they were depressive, maybe they were a danger to themselves. Individuals were brought in on a mental inquest warrant. So they were brought in by the police or someone like that and dropped off in this lockdown unit, processed through in this lockdown unit. Maybe there's a 15 to 20 spots. So that would be an individual an individual that was going and they were out in the city and they were threatening someone or yeah They're having a standoff with the police and I'm gonna kill you. I'm gonna kill myself. They're showing up for your ward Yes, okay, and that's what's so that's what you're seeing Friday night Saturday, but that's not Oh, and then we had individuals that were schizophrenic, that were hallucinating, that... Or seeing angels or seeing the devil and potentially very aggressive and some that weren't. You

That were hungry, that were homeless and hungry, or individuals that were going through withdrawals, whether it was alcohol or drug withdrawal. So what I is I would go through the glass, the bulletproof glass, and I would take my clipboard and I would go to everyone and say, Why are you here? Are you hungry? Do Or you know, are you hearing voices? Maybe, I didn't say that, but something like that. And it was highly effective, because there wasn't a judgment towards them. It was why are they here and what is the real issue that needs to be addressed? And maybe they were just hungry. They didn't have the resources that they needed. And by doing that, I was able to process them through quickly as opposed to the standard way of doing things would be take one person at a time. - Oh, so you'd kind of triage them? - I did. - Okay.

It's this is interesting to me because I didn't understand too much about this for my life and I started to realize that well, it's what you said like the brain is an organ and you can have problems with it Just like you have problems the way I always describes you can have problems the car like when I'm talking To someone and they're going through some kind of like cycle logical issue and they're having a hard time with it. I Blame to him because a lot of them are military guys and they don't want to hear like well you need help They want to hear so the way I break it down to him. It's look man. This is like your problem of your car you don't just not if you keep driving it's gonna break it's gonna it's gonna blow up you need to get it You take it to a mechanic take it to a brain mechanic. That's what a psychologist. That's what a psychiatrist is but and what I'm Kind of putting together now is like you're dealing with the people that were on the extreme end of this But there's so many well correct me if I'm wrong, but what it seems like to me is there's a whole bunch of

Degrees of mental illness, right? You can be bipolar schizophrenic like I'm hearing voices, just like a normal person that's like going through issues that they can get help. They need to they might not be so obvious, but they might feel depressed They might feel anxious or whatever these things are and they can still get help It's actually easier to help that person because it's not a severe of a problem. Is that Good assessment? Yes. Okay. Yes. And you know I at some point pretty quickly realized this this wasn't The training, it was so valuable. Because ultimately I interface with people. I treat people. And if you cannot get. Their brain on track, there's nothing you can do. I could provide the most amazing program, but if they don't have discipline and worthiness. Are able to understand the narratives that go on in their head, there's nothing I can do.

Incredibly valuable, but psychiatry was definitely not for me. - So, for two years you do this. - Yes. Decide I'm out. I don't want this is not what I want to do all the time for the rest of my life Yeah, exactly. What's the process look? What do you present? Go to the director of the program? - No, you just said not going. I found it very unsupportive. The place, it just, you know. My experience was that, yeah, I just left. And I said, hey, yeah, this isn't the thing for me. We used to go to a your husband might have been there too. We used to go to an old Psychiatric facility to train did he ever tell you about that? We we would do training it's an old, you know in order for us to do urban combat and close quarters combat you want to go Places where you haven't been before and there was an old psychiatric facility and We would go there as a bunch of buildings and it was

the creepiest place to go in at night and walk around it. And there was still relics of... What had gone on there and there's a whole there's a whole world to explore when it comes to institutions and mental institutions there was a ton of abuse that was going on in those things. And that's, if you've ever read the book One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest or seen the movie One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, fantastic. But that-- Movie sort of was the the climax of hey we're abusing these people and giving them lobotomies and they don't belong in there. And unfortunately, we've gone-- Onto this extreme where there's no real mental health facilities anymore. There's not enough mental health. The numbers there used to be thousands of beds for every hundred thousand, you know civilians

Or citizens and now it's like 100 or 82 beds or something. It's it's not adequate at all That's why we have such a problem with homelessness. That's why I have such a problem with drug abuse It's like those people used to get taken and put into a facility, unfortunately the facilities oftentimes were corrupt, so we threw the baby out with the bathwater. You're doing this and you say, you know what? I'm not doing this. - That's exactly what happened. - And then it was... It was off to Washington University. Did you go right into that next program? How'd that work? - So I took a breather and then I went to a program in New York which was North Shore LIJ. And I did that for-- - North Shore what? - North Shore LIJ. I mean, that was family medicine, and I completed that. That was a really great experience.

Three years. - So that was your residency. - That was my residency. - You get done with that residency. And that was normal, you're helping people, family medicine, you're seeing kids, you're helping them get better. You know that's the one thing, whenever I think about doctors and what they're doing. You're seeing sick people all day have I know you're friends with Johnny Kim when Johnny? Kim was trying to become a doctor and I remember telling him... In front of this officer board, I was like, I hate doctors, I hate nurses, I hate hospitals, I don't like to go there, I don't like medicine, I don't like any of it. I ever have to go I would love for you to be taking care of me That's what I said to Johnny Kim. So cool things or one of the negative things I was thinking like you're seeing sick people all the time. I was terrible. And seeing sick people. Kids, yeah, but I guess in family medicine you start to get kids that you can help and you can move them forward and you can Help them get better. So that's awesome. Then when I said I hate doctors and nurses for you doctors and nurses

It's a matter of speaking right? I really appreciate what you do every day I wouldn't want to do it and I don't like when I have to you whenever I go to a doctor which is seldom I always tell them I hope I never have to see you again. And they say, well I hope the same thing. So there you go. - That's very funny and I would say again, you know, you and I were talking and Eka were talking, I take care of a lot of former team guys and their families. They feel the same way. The wives love me, but the guys are like, Okay, well, I gotta do this, and I'm fine with it. Um... What I loved about family medicine is that, now you gotta remember, I had studied nutrition and I had studied nutritional sciences and hadn't stopped because I feel and have felt very passionate about it.

And when I went to do family medicine, I, yes, I saw sick people, you know, you do hospital rounds and you do pronounce a lot of people dead, you know, you're in the trenches. But you also have clinic where you're seeing kids that you can help. And you're seeing patients that don't have things critically wrong with them for the most part. I mean, again, it just depends on which part of the rotation that you're on, but I was able to start doing that. Nutritional sciences with them, putting them on programs as a resident, watching them get better, maybe even sneaking in a vitamin D lab. And it was amazing. And I felt useful because they were able to transform their health and they were able to lose weight and they were able to feel worthy and execute of the things that they

to do. And then when I graduated, and by the way I have to say though there's a lot I didn't really like about the standard medical care because I saw all the flaws in it. There's a lot of medication being given out, a lot of the people that we were seeing had things that were preventable. People were going into the hospital and the first thing that we were doing is putting them on bedrest. There's no faster way to destroy the health of skeletal muscle than to put someone on bedrest and then give them jello and Cheerios and they didn't even have a chance. From a nutritional perspective, you're not even gonna have a chance because it was so backwards. Again the dietary guidelines affect things and

Federal funding. I'm not saying that this hospital, I think this is a private hospital, but it's a standard of care that we're providing. And when I was graduating, I'm like, Oh, gosh, more school? Because now at this point, I'd already done undergraduate in nutritional sciences and vitamin mineral metabolism. And then two years... Detour in psychiatry and then three years in family medicine and I was like gosh you know I have to be able to learn more. So then I did a fellowship at Washington University in geriatrics and nutritional sciences. What made you choose geriatrics? I did not want to do geriatrics. In order for me to learn from the best. So are you familiar with Wash U? - No. - Wash U is one of the best schools in the country. Their acceptance rate is like a few percent.

But in order for me to go there, I had to get funding. And the way I was gonna get funding was to be a geriatrician. And for those listening, geriatrics is over the age of 65. It is typically people that if they, you know, this was dementia, this was Alzheimer's, this is people in nursing. Homes it wasn't what I had envisioned for myself but I was willing to do it because I wanted to study with the best and I did a two-year fellowship in geriatrics and nutritional sciences And they seem as if it's so different, actually obesity medicine was some of the research that I did. And it seems as if they are on two various ends But they're not. And by the way, there's so many knives on the table, I'm afraid I'm gonna like knock one off. And then we're gonna have to really call a doctor.

- Don't clap yourself, that would suck. - And I... Was working on this study and I was looking at body composition and brain function. And you know we all have that one person that affects us. The one person that changes the trajectory of everything that we thought. And I was looking at body composition, body fat, and brain function. And I If you're watching this, you're right. You mentioned the brain of this woman. She was a mom of three kids, in her mid-50s, always struggled with the-- aimed 20 or 30 pounds, everything that the food guide pyramid had told her, the white bla bla bla, Weight Watchers. And I imaged her brain, and her brain looked like the beginning of an Alzheimer's brain. And I was like, what are we doing? We're hyper focused on obesity, we don't have an obesity epidemic. The one thing that all my patients had in common, my sickest patients, was they didn't have any muscle, and they didn't have any healthy muscle.

I was like, God, we've been chasing this obesity epidemic for the last 50 years and we're fatter. Than ever and are we asking the wrong question? In fact, I believe that we are. And that's where the book premise of this idea of muscle centric medicine came from. Yeah, I got that. The book just like to just give that section of the book because it's pretty interesting how it all ends up You say once today I worked on examined the connections between body weight and brain function and found a correlation between a wider waistline and lower brain volume. Was that obesity causes insulin resistance in the brain a sort of type 3 diabetes of cerebral matter? That's a really interesting thing that I hadn't heard of before Alzheimer's and brain function type 3 diabetes. I see echoes nodding his head 'cause he's making that connection over there.

That could lead to dementia our research showed that people with obesity often had impaired overall cognitive responses such as impulse control, task switching, and other many other things. Challenges again you're just you're saying obesity people with obesity had these problems impulse control task switching other mental challenges I I'm very invested in the study's participants, especially Betsy. That's what you were just talking about. A mother of three in her early 50s who had always put her family and others first. Betsy had spent decades struggling. To lose the same 15 or 20 pounds she'd been carrying since her first pregnancy, but she couldn't, but she shouldn't have been... To focus on the weight she had to lose. The real threat lay with what she had failed to build. Imaging her brain revealed her future. The pictures I saw looked like those of someone with Alzheimer's. I knew what was in store for her within the next few decades and it crushed me. I felt

That I, along with the mainstream medical community and society, had failed her. To me, she represented dozens of patients I had seen in the same position. Then it hit me. People had one thing in common, low muscle mass or some impairment to their muscle. They all lacked the strength to Performed certain basic movements, and they had low physical tone along with blood markers that indicated unhealthy muscle. Their issue wasn't body fat, I realized, it was lack of sufficient healthy muscle tissue. He and medicine and society have long been telling people to lose weight, but by focusing Betsy, like so many, had failed to get healthy no matter how hard she tried. I realized that we had gotten the narrative all wrong and the consequences for countless. Individual lives would be devastating. Desperate to repair what I felt was the

Communities biggest failure muscle centric medicine became my mission is there something that Led you to see that thread that other people hadn't seen Well I'd always been really interested in my own training. And I-- I Just, you know, when you start seeing death everywhere, you know, which again is a geriatrician, it's a component of that is end of life. And you're watching who are the people that get admitted to the hospital. Who are the people that are breaking a hip? Who are the people that are never walking again? And then who are the people that are thriving? And yes, it was that muscle was this key organ system that

everybody had brushed over it at the time. And still to this day, when we think about muscle, we think about, you know, like, what does a team guy care about? You know, good hair and a lot of tea and big muscles. And I think a lot of individuals are really believe that's muscle is all about being jacked or being a good athlete. Yes, and that hard physical training does something even more Tremendous. The more muscle mass you have, the greater your survivability. The more muscle mass you have, the more healthy muscle mass you have, the greater your... Metabolic profile, the better your metabolic profile, better potentially your brain function is. The better your survivability against anything. Yes, strength, mobility, the better your immune system. Skeletal muscle, when you contract it, is this endocrine organ that secretes.

These myokines, which are just big fancy words for molecules that travel throughout the body that interface. Again, back to the... This idea of an osteopathic physician, the body is this holistic unit. And this holistic unit was designed for hard physical labor. And so what happened was, the way that I saw it is we had taken out this piece of hard physical labor. And even the quote exercisers, they weren't doing enough. It just, the way in which we have become domesticated has really destroyed us. And that is what I just became obsessively thinking about. And that how do we maintain the health of skeletal muscle as we age and how can we change trajectory of what we believe as health and wellness. So in our minds, and humans are interesting, when they...

See something like a pattern repeated, whether they hear it or they see it, they believe that to be the appropriate outcome. For example, if you hear enough times that... Red meat is killing the planet. Whether it's true or not, you'll believe it. If you believe... That as we age that there will be a sharp decline in your functioning and that this is the way in which you have to age, you believe it and perhaps. Ops, you stop training is hard and you say, oh, well this is just because I'm getting older, et cetera, et cetera, just because it's been. In repetition and no one in the mainstream has really lived in a certain way that has exemplified what it means to age in a way of strength. We don't have. You know the people kind of in the public eye. I wouldn't say that they are are clued to the surface. Defined as ways in which we would want to age. And once we get clarity about how

we are planning on aging and what the requirements are and what it's gonna take. We can simplify everything and protect ourselves and protect our loved ones. Those were some of the things that I had begun to think about and then I started to think about when you go to the doctor. I know you don't go, maybe Echo goes. But when one, no team guy goes to the doctor ever, but when someone goes to the doctor, they'll say what's your blood pressure? let me listen your heart, let me listen your lungs. No one says okay how strong are you? Really, truly how strong are you? And how much muscle mass do you actually have? That's not even a vital sign, but it should be. What's interesting about this if you're listening to this right now Is a very similar correlation to leadership so leadership is a skill that you can build and you can

grow. Some people they hear me talk about leadership well I'm not a good leader I won't be a good leader. No you can actually... Become a better leader. When you learn to be more articulate, when you understand the principles of leadership, When you pay attention when you learn to detach there's things you can do make you a better leader now There are people that have more Natural leadership capability than other people those people are out there. They're really charismatic. They're really articulate those people exist and that's great They get to just step up and leave and they do a good job. But everybody else has to work for it. And you know what? It's the same thing with muscle. Like sure, there's some people that are just genetically gifted with a whole bunch of muscle mass good for them. That's awesome Most people they you have to work you have to do work and if you don't Do work you won't get strong you won't get stronger. You definitely won't maintain strength, so I mean I work out old every day echo works out every Day and probably takes every third day off What's your fourth day fourth day?

So but this is a pattern that you've been doing for your you're now 40. How old are you? 46 years old you started lifting when you were 10 15 But you were doing push-ups at 10. Oh, yeah. Yeah push-ups just to get a little bit bigger than he's got it to him brother You wanted a little bit more Jack. Yes But that's a long time, that's 30 years of lifting, roughly speaking. Me, I'm the same way, you know, I started working out. Probably when I was 15 or 16, you know just with the sports but you're doing a little bit like oh I think I can get biceps or whatever. That's what you're thinking in Like, oh, you see Rocky or whatever doing chin ups, you're gonna do some of that. Spending my adult life in the teams where you're working out all the time and then not stopping working out We were talking about this before we hit record today I still train jiu-jitsu. I still get on the mat with the young beasts.

Train with them hard and I believe that the reason I'm able to do that is because I never stopped lifting and I never stopped lifting. I don't take... Oh three a month off or three months off or three weeks off because I was busy or this or that because I think that's a Opportunity for you to get injured you take you take three weeks off for a month off and then you like Go back in there and you try and lift something that you haven't lifted in a while That's when you get hurt and actually the figures that you put in the book and you'll have to remind me Maybe you don't remember them off the top of your head, but the amount of what you're Percentage of muscle loss goes down when you're not lifting. It's extraordinary. It's horrible. It's horrible I didn't know that now that I know that I'm even gonna work out even more I'm gonna go from it every day like I'm gonna go nine times a day. That's what we're doing So people that are listening right now and actually I forgot to tell you this before we hit record this book

of yours, my mom is 80 something, and it was part of her book club. That's and so she she read it but for people that might be 75 48 52 It doesn't matter where you are You you've got to put in the effort to maintain your muscle Your body you got to do it. It's gonna help you with every aspect of your life And I've always known that actually we've said that on this podcast. I put it this was freedom feel mental We I've been saying that for I just didn't I just didn't really Explain it very well, and I certainly didn't have the we had bro science to back it up Yes, we backed it up with bro science hard - Right, living proof right here, bro signs. Oh, I'm still rolling. Science that you have any experience that you have in that in that area makes it very obvious that if you're out there You're listening to this right now. You should be

Lifting weights and trying to be strong. That's what you should be doing. That should be a priority in your life. Even be the number one priority in your life. - It is. It's even more impactful. I hate to say this. I hate to say this. It is more impactful than what you eat. I mean, you obviously cannot out train a bad diet. That's not gonna happen, but you know. We have this era of what are the hacks? The only hack is hard work yeah, and By building and maintaining skeletal muscle, it is your body armor. That's funny talking about body armor sitting across from you but you get what I'm saying. - Yeah, it's 100% true. I think that, look I've gotten injured. You know, I got injured in teams a little bit got injured in jiu-jitsu a little bit but the from the amount of stuff

I did in the teams and on the mats not to mention surfing not to mention skiing not to mention running around the mountain hunting all those things to not to to Get injured very often which again knock on wood I'm very lucky but you get thrown around torqued around things go go where they're not supposed to go and if you lift weights, you're gonna be that much better off in every aspect of your life. And it has to be non-negotiable. And this book really puts the science behind it in a different aspect than training or performance but a medical aspect. When you are out there training and you're-- I had mentioned that it releases these myokines. These myokines interface with the immune system. So you talked about Layla that... The woman in the beginning who had rheumatoid arthritis. One of the treatments was exercise.

Because when she was contracting her skeletal muscle, these myokines that are released counterbalance the inflammatory process that's happening. But that is not prescribed. In fact, exercise can be optional. Eating can't be, right? Everybody has to eat unless, I don't know, you've got some new fad diet that you become an air-itarian. But everybody has to eat, but exercise and physical activity, do you know that 50% of Americans don't exercise? 50% and then wait, this is really bad, 70% will hit both recommendations for resistance training and 150 minutes of To vigorous activity wait 70% do that do not do not do that. So 50% Work out at all. Yeah, and then 70% don't hit any of the minimum recommended. Yes

What are the minimum recommendations 150 minutes of moderate to vigorous activity a week a week plus two days of resistance training Okay. Yeah We we For the New Year's we did this thing def reset where it was like, you know, these are Things that you're going to do and one of the things that I've talked about with Basically making yourself a task list prioritize and execute When you read extreme ownership that we were talking about earlier this one of the laws of combat the Law of combat leadership is prioritize next year. So when you prioritize and execute your life one of the things I've been telling people lately to get a little bit more granular that is do this things first meaning I've got these four little things that are due today and I've got to get them done so I'm gonna do those first no actually do those after you do you're trying to write a book

That first you've got a long-term project you would do that do that work first and then do the stuff that's due today it's it's reverse psychology it's it's counterintuitive because most people think well i got this dude today i'll do that and then i'll do the long Long term project. No, don't do that. Do the big long term strategic stuff first and What is the most long-term strategic thing that you can do in your life? Take care of your health. So that's why when I wake up in the morning, the first thing I do is work out because... Don't notice one workout. You don't notice two workouts. You don't notice three workouts. You don't notice 30 work, well you probably noticed 30, but you don't notice these things. And you have to put them first so that. That you get them done and this is even more evidence. We're crossing, we're bridging bro science and real science right now, we're bridging. So we're good. - You know, it's the, health is the great equalizer.

It is the great equalizer. You will never be able to outperform your level of health. And people will say, Oh, you can be mentally tough. I take care of people that change the world. That is my mission in life, is to care for people that change the world, and I believe I do that very well. The common denominator of how capable and how well. They will be able to do their job is not based on how mentally tough they are. It is absolutely based on their health. And it's interesting because the hard chargers drive forward regardless, but I would say that that's a rookie move. That nothing will take you out faster than a health diagnosis. This, eventually not sleeping, we'll catch up with you, all of these things, and yet people really fail to recognize that that is the foundation. >> Yeah.

Mmm, all right, let's let's get into this muscle centric medicine gonna bring a I haven't said this yet Usually say this pretty early on. You get the book. We're gonna skim like the very wave tops of the book, but get the book. Um forever strong just go get it you can get the details, but we're gonna hit the highlights of it right now Here's one of the fundamentals that you talk about We just been talking about we'll give you a little details from the book the life-changing power of skeletal muscle skeletal muscle the muscle that Moves bones to control our locomotion not only constructs our physical architecture, but also impacts our physiological infrastructure a underestimated resource muscle burns fat drives metabolism protects against disease and so much more near nearly and here's the the bullet points Nearly immediate improvements measurable within two weeks brought about by increasing muscle health include better blood pressure sugar regulation, hunger control, increased mobility. Next bullet point.

Longer term benefits include a stronger body and stronger bones, improved blood profile including lower triglycerides, metabolism, and more. Protection increased survivability against nearly every disease and a better mood Echo, can you confirm that? If you're jacked, you have a better mood. - Yes, sir, I can confirm. - And muscle-centric medicine harnesses this powerful system to heal disease, build-- body composition, boost energy, increase mobility, and combat the conditions associated with aging. What we're doing that's everything that we just talked about and in the book you've got a lot of details around More specifically what that looks like and how it works very important underestimated thing. Grossly underestimated. Yes you ever so I surf, you know and Guys that surf like you're in good shape

If you have a remotely good lifestyle and you surf, there's guys out there that are studs. There are 45 years old 50 years old 55 years old That's that's a key component If you're doing something that is active, that takes strength, you're gonna be in such better shape And if you're one of those 50% of people that don't exercise do like 100% stop the podcast right now and go start working out That's what that's what you should do right now even have to be complicated right? It could be I mean listen you should Allocate mental resources to a good training plan, but there's absolutely no excuse to-- not be able to do bodyweight exercises, whether it's squats or push ups. And that all might sound silly, but remember The things that we care about, what are the ultimate endpoints? We care about not getting dementia.

Right? We care about not getting heart disease. You care about not getting hypertension, obesity, diet. Diabetes, type two diabetes, I mean, you'll lose your foot, you lose your eyesight, destroy your kidneys. These are not diseases all about obesity. So just hear me out. Is in one part a symptom of unhealthy skeletal muscle. The greatest prevention and protection against something like Alzheimer's is the health and wellness of your skeletal muscle. So there's no such thing as a healthy sedentary person. People will talk about, Oh, if you're You look in the literature, oh, this healthy sedentary individual, that does not exist. Was designed to move over time if it doesn't. You've had like a fatty Wagyu steak with like marbling in it? - Yes, I certainly have. - I mean.

Skeletal muscle will look like that if you are not training and creating this flux and this movement of... Whether it's glycogen utilization of the fatty acids in the skeletal muscle. The alto muscle is almost like a pond. And when that pond becomes stagnant, fat builds up and it destroys this tissue. That's not the worst part. The worst part is it's your metabolic sync. And if you can appreciate... That Alzheimer's is type 3 diabetes of the brain again. There are genetic is that is that from current? Literature right now. Yeah, are people saying that yeah that Alzheimer's is type 3 diabetes the brain it's in it's in part I graduated my fellowship in 2015 Did I graduate in 2015? Yes, I did and at that time

There was a lot more discussion about the metabolic implications and now it certainly has an uptick. People's understanding. You know these diseases of aging people believe they just happen to us. Alzheimer's and cardiovascular disease, these challenges begin in your 30s. These are not and even sarcopenia, which is the loss of muscle mass and function, which we've many of us Have witnessed our parents or grandparents getting skinnier and scrawnier. While there are certain changes that happen in skeletal muscle, when these changes happen, these are when we see the uptick in metabolic dysregulation. If we can maintain the health of skeletal muscle Then it allows us to maintain a healthy metabolism. What do I mean by that? Quite simply, again, you had mentioned it, blood sugar regulation, blood glucose, insulin, triglycerides, these are all dependent on the health of skeletal muscle.

When that skeletal muscle declines, you will see fatty infiltration. We'll also see a rise in blood glucose, potentially a rise in insulin, triglycerides, etc. This becomes very destructive to the brain, to heart health, to... Arterial health. And again, we're always looking outward for the quote solution. I would argue that it's about pulling And we have to have other physicians and other individuals begin to speak about this as opposed to chasing fat and prescribing more ozempic and Monjourno, which are all great drugs, but there has to be To be some accountability. How does the Zampic work?

And so basically what that does that mean is it Stimulate does a number of things but it decreases hunger tremendously it it Makes your body feel as if it's full it changes gut motility. So food stays in your system Longer. There is a potential that it browns white fat. I do think that... That it is a very good drug, and we use it in my practice. There's a lot of discussion about how it destroys-- Elto muscle mass. We don't see that because our patients, they're training. They are training, they're eating. Dietary protein, but what's so interesting, and I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist, but I think the pushback against dozema... Is if people aren't hungry they're not buying junk food. Not buying the-- - Oh, so you're saying that? - I believe. - Yeah, yeah. - So, and I'm gonna tell you why I-- - Hostess is against Ozempic.

I will tell you why I think this is true because when you look at the marketing budgets, whoever has the money has the microphone. And this whole. Confusion around dietary protein, which let's say beef. I'm just going to pick on beef, whether it's beef, dairy, eggs, etc. They are all commodities. They're whole foods. They are under the jurisdiction of the USDA, which means if I-- say to you, let's just play a game. Beef, you say what's for-- - Dinner, if I say milk, what do you say? - Cool. - Oh, okay. - I'm gonna switch my, okay, if I say pork, what do you say? - The other white? - Me? - See, nailed it. We could put you on Jeopardy. - Yes. - Notice that there-- liners. They're one liners and they don't say anything disparaging against milk

Say wow this is the worst this is so much better than almond juice. The commodities are all put together with small farms, for the most part. - I don't know, you just hear milk. - Does the body good, yeah. - But there's a ton of different milk farmers, et cetera, dairy farmers. - But they united to make that. - Exactly, they unite, they pool other resources. Together and collectively a commodity which is a whole food has a marketing budget of 750 million. Like that's it. And they can not say anything disparaging against other foods like you can't say wow almond juice sucks. We're a much better choice Processed foods, once it is processed, it's under a different jurisdiction like the FTC or whatever it is and they... Can say, Wow, almond milk is so much better for the planet. This is a great source of X, Y, and Z. So it can make these claims that... Can also potentially be totally erroneous, but one company, let's say PepsiCo.

Has a marketing budget of, I don't know, over $2 billion. So these narratives that come out, one must understand who is controlling the markets that we're seeing, and who is controlling the-- Information, the meatless Mondays, et cetera. - Is that a thing too? - Yes, that's a thing. That is a thing. - It's not a thing for me. - I think, and that's why I appreciate it. And the reason I bring this up is because... We are I wrote this book to provide a good evidence based foundation for understanding and also an under-- Understanding of the mouse with the microphone of all these, you know, maybe this one are two major companies that will influence our health and influence the choices that we're making. Speaking of protein I'm gonna fast forward into the book again. I want to hit the highlights of this

Protein more than just a macronutrient roughly 60% of your body is water half of the remaining 40% is protein your bones ligaments tendons liver brain skin and fingernails are all built from proteins But this vital macronutrient is responsible for far more than just physical structures proteins are the master Regulators of all that is happening in your body controlling function in all tissues and organs including muscle Include enzymes, a class of proteins that catalyze all chemical reactions within the body. Proteins also support energy production and cell-to-cell communication. Take critical cellular functions including balancing hormones and serve as a vital immune system mediators That inactivate pathogens as part of your immune response are a type of protein, as are many hormones, including insulin. Thyroid hormones which help regulate your blood glucose and metabolic rate can impact and can impact growth hormone

Secretion and bone health are made from amino acids provided by proteins. The brain uses protein rich foods to produce neurogenesis. Transmitters such as endofrin, norepinephrine, or no epinephrine, norepinephrine, dopamine. In the next video. Protein-forward diet, balanced blood sugar, increased energy, mental clarity, decreased body fat, improved body composition, reduced Cravings by now. I hope you're clear on a vital role that protein plate protein plays beyond building new muscle. There's no getting around its role in all the body systems. These functions make protein critical for longevity, metabolic function, and quality of life. Life and here's why you shouldn't ignore protein it is essential for We were functions influences metabolism needed to build structures, need to build physical structures in.

Pack sleep and mood needed for brain, bone, ligaments, tendon, skin, and fingernails. These are the things that protein are doing. And it's weird that it does all this. And like I said, for back in the day-- Hey, it wasn't really part of the conversation other than we're drinking some protein shakes when we're lifting heavy to get a little bit stronger. Used to be about fat proteins, or sorry, fat and carbohydrates. Don't know fat's bad, no carbohydrates bad, but your emphasis. Protein forward. Yeah that's right and it's it's interesting there is something called the protein leverage hypothesis have you heard of that? I would have been Very very protein lever protein leverage hypothesis and this is the idea that one reason

Obesity is the way that it is, is that a human will feed until they get enough protein. So if you are eating highly processed foods that are lower in protein, you will continue to eat to meet this protein need. Because again, we eat protein, but we really need those amino acids. Different amino acids. Nobody, I don't think, on the podcast wants to hear about all 20, but so I'll save everybody. - They're in the book. - They're in the book. So I'll save everybody that painful discussion, but at the end of the day, these amino acids all do different things. And so we're eating for individual amino acids. And that is something that we have to appreciate. And that is where kind of this idea of being protein forward comes in is that a human will feed to get those amino acids. And keep feeding. And keep eating.

There's a certain, and we see it across animals, that they'll go for, you know, closer to 20% protein. In humans, we can go higher, certainly, and I typically don't think about it as a percentage. It's really a number. We shouldn't really think about when we construct a diet. We shouldn't necessarily think about percentages because again if someone is eating a thousand calories versus two thousand calories Are going to mean different things. - And in the book you start talking about how much protein you should eat. For yeah, so what's what's your calculation? Well, I'm just gonna say this It should be around one gram per pound ideal body weight the so if you are how much you weigh 225 great 225 225 grams of protein or at least 200 - Mm-hmm.

Do you know how many grams of protein you ate? - No. - It'd be interesting to see what you naturally are doing. - Yeah, it would be interesting to see. Um... Would you say 200 let's say you're supposed to get 200. Yeah, I think we should we should track it in and do and and See, I eat a lot of protein great. Yeah, I ate a lot of protein. I have protein shakes I have protein ready to drinks and I eat steak and I do A lot and I do that on a daily basis. I said we're over here eating protein, but I'll get back to you. Oh I'll like... - Love to know. - I actually, I just looked this up the other day. How much protein is in a 16 ounce ribeye? You know, off the top of your head? - Around, so if you multiply what, 16 times seven. What is that number? - Oh, now we're doing math. 16 times 7 so 7 is 278 92

Two grams of protein. - Yeah. - So it's probably a little bit lower because of the fat. So the 16 ounces will be a little bit lower. Protein, I guess I'm probably gonna be pretty close. I bet you I'm pretty close to 200 a day, which is pretty cool, which is Very interesting and I will mention that the RDA again the recommended dietary allowance is set at 0.37 grams per pound I'm protein forward - Amazing. - And I've been rooting for it for a long time. - 'Cause it supports training, it supports recovery, it supports all of the things, and you've tuned out the noise and likely done what you felt the best as. - Do you feel like, - As you said, ideal body weight. Like let's say, okay, I'm 225 as well, but I'm thinking in my mind, I'm like, wait, if I was like 220 or 215, that would be really my ideal weight.

Is that kinda how I, 'cause a lot of people, that discrepancy is bigger, you know? - Yeah, you're pretty close and really fit. Again, it is, so you-- - I think you're gonna talk. - You guys are terrible. - See her when the mics are off. - One gram per pound ideal body weight would work, but there's no, what I do want to point out is there's a lot of myths around dietary protein that if you were to over kill. In soon protein, which we actually don't have a number for that. Let's say you told me you're eating 500 grams. I couldn't say that for some reason that that would be bad. I wouldn't have evidence to support that. There's a feeding. Studies that go above, you know, closer to 3.3 grams per kg. - And what does that do to somebody? - Nothing. In fact-- - No bad outcome? - It's improved body composition, so they have lost body fat, and they have--

increased lean mass. There's no data to support that protein is bad for healthy kidneys or bone. Those are the common myths and for any women listening to the podcast, it's not going to make you bulky, which is all. All we ever hear about, but it would be very difficult to overeat protein. And it's also very difficult to gain weight And the average male is eating around 100 grams of protein a day. Oh That is that's what the average is eating. Yeah, that's not that's not gonna be good Now does that number go up if we're if we're working? Now really hard? - I think one gram per pound ideal body weight will cover you. - Cover you, okay. But you could go higher. Depending on if you eat carbohydrates or not, Glycogen, it's good for recovery, so it's just a matter of how many calories that you can allot.

I was listening to one of your guys talk downstairs. He's like, I'm eating 5,000 calories a day. Super hard. Yeah, maybe getting ready for a fight or something. I think he is and maybe even like 5,000 calories a day He might be yeah, like sometimes you have guys trying Maintain their weight through training through camp through fight camp and it can be hard because you're doing two days Is three days, like it gets a little crazy. - And so for how you would allocate calories is, I wouldn't go below one gram per pound. Ideal body weight because he's also gonna have to get calories in whether it's carbohydrates or fats. He's still gonna have to get more calories you mentioned It's we're gonna fast forward to cop rights now listen again. There's so much detail in the book about protein about the About how to eat it so get the book for that But you mentioned carbohydrates and you say it's no wonder that carbs have such a bad rap today in today's culture Mouthwatering starches and sugars can make everything from grandma's cookies to your favorite breakfast scones addictive they

Your cravings and are so so easy to over consume most Americans get more than 50% of their calories from carbohydrates and our collective overeating of starchy sugary refined Carbs Has devastating effects on our metabolism resulting in a rampant obesity insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes That's what's going on with carbs You're You're not a person in this book that's like a carb hater. - Not at all. You gotta earn it though. Yeah, you talk about the fact that your body can make the loose glucose That it needs because there's again when I was talking about sometimes back in the day when I would Get my some of my wife's friends would get hostile with me. Yeah, and and They would be like, Your brain needs glucose. And I would say, No, it doesn't. You can fuel it with ketones. But you-- Do you, do you.

You do mention that your body can make what it needs. Quality carbs, you talk about that as well. Carves what's your what's your assessment? What do you need? How do you earn it? What if you don't earn it? You're gonna get fat There's no nice way to say it. The average American eats 300 grams of carbs a day and doesn't exercise. We know what's happening there. I will say carbohydrates are not bad. I am a higher carb person because I like to train and I can burn it. The idea of eating less processed food makes a lot of sense because processed food Tend to be highly palatable. If I were to give you hostess or ho-hos, whatever you want to call them, it would probably be easy to eat a lot of that. Um, I... Recommend individuals if they are metabolically healthy, you could do a one to one ratio of protein to carbs. If you are healthy and you're

Or training, anything above that has to be earned. Now, if you are metabolically. Unhealthy if you are struggling with weight, if you are overweight, if you have abnormal blood markers, you could start At 90 grams of carbohydrates a day. I wouldn't totally do an Atkins tank you out. That doesn't seem to work well for people. Again, I've seen thousands of people. It just doesn't work well. Choosing so is 90 grams like sort of like a average of what it takes to Function as a human? - Yeah, that's where that, smart man, that's where it came from. If I were to make a, you know, I try to make recommendations that I could back up by science. To say go zero carbohydrates again I'm a physician so what going to work for most people and how can I put them in a position to succeed? Once I get

Their buy-in then we can begin to execute and I can push them further. Starting at 90 grams easy so for individuals who don't have big appetites if you're doing 30 grams three times a day I mean that would be nothing for you guys, but it could be a place to start. So if we already know that 50% of Americans Americans are not working out, they are not utilizing or turning over the swamp pool that is also known as muscle, then Anything above that number, you begin to earn. - And how do you earn more, working out more? - You train, yeah. What are the... You're taking in carbo hyzers. What are your what you put in the book as quality carbs you talk about vegetables berries beans and lentils Is that our good carbs high-five fiber, but?

For the guys that are listening here that are doing heavy training, absolutely they should be having rice or potatoes or anything to refuel. I love choosing carbohydrates that also have fiber. I would say not necessarily around training because we want that faster absorption. Training individuals that are training and don't cringe, but you know, like my husband is training for this marathon. He's running the Boston Marathon. - Oh awesome. - He ran the New York Marathon. - Did you have to call for the New York Marathon? - Well he got off the couch and ran it. That was a terrible idea. - But he got off the couch and-- - And ran the New York Marathon. - So wait, don't you have to qualify for the New York Marathon? Or did he have some kind of hookup? No, he always runs it for, I think he ran it for the Glenn Daugherty Foundation for the first one. - Okay, awesome. Yeah, I was gonna say they have like,

Marathon that you have to qualify for unless you're doing it for some charity organization like that So he ran the new he ran the New York Marathon for Glenn Daugherty Anyway, he got off the couch and ran that was terrible idea. How do you do? I think he did pretty good - Pretty well. - Really? - I think it was. - Was he a runner growing up? - No, he's kind of built like a tree trunk kind of a guy. So no. - So he's not a runner. And he just got off the couch around the marathon? Remember what his time was? - Is like 4.20 a good time? Well, it's like three is a solid time. Yeah, I don't know three is really solid. Yeah, I'd have to I'd have to but Off the couch, you know, and he did this while he was in medical school. Yeah off the couch for We're giving him full credit. I bet it's probably not 420. He's gonna kill me and he's gonna be like, I can't believe you said that I do so okay. He did it in 240. Okay, awesome

- Good job, dude. - But it's really funny. I go, How was that? He's like, I've done harder things. He's like, But that was stupid. Next time I'll train for it. So he's run the Boston Marathon and he's gonna run it again. - That's awesome. - He's kinda training for this one. But anyway, for him, he cannot seem to get by without doing some kind of glucose pack. It's just, he's struggling. He's also getting up at four and then-- before he goes to work and I hear you know something about that but 4 a.m. wake up. So if you are not trying to just simply refuel, choosing carbohydrates that have a high fiber ratio, if you're just really focused on body composition, that would be better. Nutrients. I remember when I was dating my husband I went to base and on post the food choices. There were so bad. It was like dominoes. uh... - Subway. - Subway. What else is there? - Yeah, then there's be like the PX shop. - Yes.

- The exchange. - The exchange. - Which just has a bunch of junk food in it, yeah. - And I'm just thinking, how are. People surviving on like Rippet's and baby Ruth. Yeah. Yeah, so they it's pretty Simple. Carbohydrates are very straightforward. We shouldn't demonize it. I will say though if you're not trained... Anything above 50 grams of carbs at one dose is not ideal. - What happens after more than 50? - 50 grams in one dose? - You can drop your blood sugar. And so you'll increase insulin, increase glucose, and then you're tired. So if you are the kind of person-- that eats and then 90 minutes later you're tanked out, then I would consider reducing your carbohydrate load at that time. - Yep, that's such a-- You should be looking at your diet. This is for when people ask me like, well you don't sleep very much and all this stuff. First of all I sleep enough, but also like I eat clean. When I know when I don't eat clean I feel like crap and I feel like I want to go to sleep Or why is that because you're eating like crap so when people like?

I just I don't have enough energy if I don't get enough sleep. It's like cool sleep more Yes, but also what are you eating? Cuz you're eating junk you're gonna feel like drunk that's the way it works so there's Carbohydrates again, the details are in the books get the books the other macronutrient. We got a hit is fat You got the skinny on fat fear of fat Is the 800 pound gorilla behind the US dietary guidelines no matter how science changes federal Policy makers still seem to act as if fats are the root of all evil since the early 1970s healthcare professionals have obsessed over the idea that fats and cholesterol Tribute to virtually all health problems including heart disease obesity diabetes and cancer while the fat theory might Seem logical the evidence is based on educated guesses assumptions and personal beliefs after nearly 50 years of research The case against dietary fat has yet to be improved It to be proven. In fact, the evidence gets weaker with each passing days and then you go

Want to say that many popular diets recommend restricting dietary fat overall and avoid avoiding saturated fats mostly because fat Have a higher calorie content nine drought calories per gram versus what is it four and four? Yeah Um but fats also have a higher safety value, meaning they tend to leave you feeling full, unlike carbohydrates, which can make you hungry, There's always room for dessert even when you're stuffed. Remember, weight management and body fat are body fat are determined by the number of calories you eat, that's why it's so important to master balancing your macronutrients for optimal health. - So you know they took cholesterol out of the guidelines? There was this, oh, you should only have 300 milligrams of cholesterol a day. I think they took it out 2015. And you still go to the doctor today, and the doctor will say reduce your.

Dietary cholesterol. - Oh, you're saying they took it out 'cause they actually realized that this didn't need to be in there? - Correct, that the body makes cholesterol. And that dietary cholesterol doesn't. Necessarily raise your blood level cholesterol when you say doesn't necessarily I think that And I say it cautiously, dietary cholesterol does not affect your blood level cholesterol. You make it and you have somewhat of a cholesterol. Setpoint. Yeah, you've got like a genetic cholesterol. Yes exactly, so that is why I said it that way and and uh... They took it out of the guidelines, yet people are still saying, Oh, you should watch your cholesterol intake. Why? example of something that we've heard repeated over and over again to mean truth when it doesn't. Cholesterol is made by the body and again like you had

There is a genetic set point. I will say saturated fat, they just came up with a number. The case against saturated fat is not good. The recommendation is-- - Wait, the case-- against it is not good. Is not strong meaning that when they say saturated fat is bad they are not correct. Well saturated fat could be a problem if you are overeating. If you are overeating, then saturated fat can be a problem. But if you are Overeating and your calories are in check, then saturated and fat is not a problem. There are certain genetic for certain people it can be a problem, but you'll know that pretty quickly And how you know that? You'll see changes in abnormal lipid panels. But again, it--

really is a much bigger picture because there's lean mass hyper responders, there are a whole host of people that do well on higher levels of saturated fat, it really depends. um So they kind of picked this number of 10% and then 30% fat. Ah. Out of the air, there wasn't there's not really great evidence. So basically, what they did is they said, 45 to 65% of your Or diet should be carbohydrates. This is what they say. Again, driven by policy, these are not all scientific decisions. These are decisions. Just guidelines after some committee got together and. That takes funding. From processed food companies, from industry. Dietary protein the same, which is the only macronutrients whose need changes as you age. So your mom should have a higher protein intake than she had 10 years ago. But they've kept those numbers the same

To prevent deficiencies. And then they'll say, okay, well, you know, 30% of your diet can be fat. And just kind of make up this number. Right, maybe it's less and maybe 10% will come from saturated fat, but it is, again, they kind of made these numbers up. - Got it. Again, you've got, Literally reading two paragraphs out of entire sections of the book. So if you want to get the details of this information get the book and then on top of that you have like meal planning in the book Obviously, I'm not gonna read meal plans. I'm not gonna read the recipes, but you've got some good examples Quite a few good examples like hey, here's something you can eat. Here's it. What a what a breakfast would look like Here's and one of the things I don't know if I've highlighted this or not in the book, so I'm just gonna say it right now. Like the cornerstone of your meals is 30 grams of protein. - Yeah, that's the minimum.

That's like what you're doing. You're gonna have breakfast, cool. You start with 30 grams of protein. You also talk about eating the protein first, which I think is smart. Yeah, that because then you're not hungry. Great data that individuals that have protein first and you image their brain, they're much To go for the donuts or the cupcakes because of the effect of, you're looking at, could you eat donuts and cupcakes? - You haven't heard this, this guy over here, like two months ago, he had, what was it, what app did you use? Door - he used door - to have a dozen Krispy Kreme doughnuts delivered to his house and he ate eight of them. You did Oh, listen, if you're gonna do that at least have your protein first You would have had seven How did you find that out he he confessed look sometimes I got to talk to him, you know We get we have ways of making him talk, but you know, he admitted it. He knew it was wrong. He knew it was wrong

We talked about it, we got through it. We're not gonna let it happen again for a while. - But let me ask you this, the next day were you more hungry for carbs? See, and we talked about about that too where it doesn't really jam me up, which is kind of a catch 22. Do you feel afterwards and I was like He said I felt normal I said, what'd you do he goes well I laid on the couch and I felt I said he said I kind of fell asleep I look really kind of because I don't remember what happened. So he would have this whole like brain coma. Yeah. Well put it This way it didn't jam me up like how people say, Oh, I don't like mess you up. - So you ate back to your normal way of eating the next day? - Yes, ma'am, I did. - Okay. - Okay. - Where it's like, and the thing is, I do believe that and I'm sure I feel that somewhere, but. Yeah, when you're like you have it planned out you're like, yeah I'm gonna pound these donuts and then I'm gonna go back living my normal life So you threw away the other four? No, I give them to my nephew or he

- I wanna know what was gonna happen if he had those other fours, I bet y'all. - It's very possible. - Yeah, but-- - Oh, the next day you mean? - Yeah, like I might get into him. Yeah, but do you, and this is probably part of the holistic kind of situation where this is what I feel more so than I feel, ooh, the craving for those donuts in the back fridge. I feel like oh, wait a second. This is one of the rare times they're around It's not like this is gonna become a habit or nothing because not like I'm gonna go back and get more doughnuts - Start getting ads, yeah. - That is true, but it's less likely, you see what I'm saying? You're like, oh yeah, this is kind of an opportune time. You know, it's basically the psychology of having junk food around versus not around. Okay, well they're here, they're not always here, let me pound these and move on. You know, kind of a thing. But if they're not there-- - This is rationalization on its absolute best. - Yeah, that's the point. - It's never as good as you think it's gonna be. And I think people hold out for, you know, I always think what are the things that really trip people up is they have this--

Idea that it's the last meal or the thing that is gonna be so good and they dream about it and they think about it, but it's like this hedonic reward. Or it's never as good. - I would say, well, put it this way in the spirit of accuracy, it is rarely as good because every once in a while, like this one time, I mean, not that, you know, but this one time. I was like, hey, I'm gonna you know, I'm gonna have this cheat day or it's more of a cheap meal I'll do the whole day Dave really? Okay, but the I'm gonna say okay, I'm gonna go to Jack in the Box back in the days to get Jack in the Box the sourdough one You know cup it Act in the box. Jack in the box. Oh hell yeah. Now last I get the Jack in the box. Bro it comes and it's all fresh and it fulfilled my expectations. But aside from that like even the Krispy Kremes it Didn't really fulfill your right. It rarely is like what you like really wanted and-- - And then we forget. Forget as humans there's this hedonic reward and it's the hedonic treadmill. You think that that

next donut and then all of a sudden there's diminishing returns because, I guarantee you by donut number six, Idea Just rolled up in a ball thing is I I see how that can be, but I do feel like in my specific case it was different just because I know what I'm doing and I know like tomorrow it's not going to be like that. It's not like that. This is not a new thing. Necessarily like a new pattern that I'm gonna like, you know, I got a protocol recently Implemented protocol. I don't I don't implement new protocols very often, but I've had a protocol that I've had for a long time Which is if I feel like I need Eat a day off. I won't take it today, I'll take it tomorrow. I'm like, yeah, I don't really feel like working out today. I think I might be tired and I probably need some rest day and all the.

- Nurture says that you need to rest more and you just tell yourself all these things. If I go through that and I say, Yep, I definitely need a day off, then I say, Cool, you get to take it tomorrow. Today so then I go do the work and guess what the next day you feel fine you get through it that works I actually just implemented this Yes. If you want to eat something really good like out outs that's not on the path You can do it. You got to get it tomorrow. You got to wait till tomorrow. Yeah, and that right there generally speaking In January, I was like, Oh, I'm fired up. I'm gonna get a pizza at the end of January. I'm gonna get a... like a deli- bucks, just super good pizza. I'm gonna go to the pizza restaurant. - Yeah, make sure it's fresh. - We're gonna do this whole thing. And right now, I still haven't gotten it. 'Cause I've, I got through, like I say I'll do it tomorrow. And I just keep saying I'll do it tomorrow and then I realized the next day I'm like, oh, yeah, I don't want to do that. Yeah, and then

two weeks later I'm like, oh I want to get that pizza. And then I go, okay I'll do it tomorrow. Tomorrow you're cleared hot. But then I get to tomorrow I'm like, I don't want to do that. - Yeah. - 'Cause I don't want to fall off the path. Good little protocol implementing the same protocol for days off of work working out implement the same protocol if you want to freaking just go haywire with the damn eight Creams and have you ever have you ever gone off the path? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean I Eat I'm totally normal. Like I mean, I'll definitely eat Bye bye. If there's a good pizza out there, I'm chocolate chip cookies. Let's go we make milk chocolate chip cookies Which actually do a really good job of filling the gap on that. To me, like my protein chain. Tastes like dessert so I'm very what's the word very gratified And satisfied when I get done eating steak and salad. I have some kind of--

eatin' some kind of salad basically every night. And I have Caesar salad or I have some kind of vinaigrette, you know, like what is it? It's balsamic vinegar and And olive oil very fancy. I put them in a thing and I mix them and I put them on the piece of salad And I eat it, but I get to with that sometimes that the sweet tooth is still there protein shake all day i'll have a chocolate milk protein shake and i've that's good to go that's That's totally satisfying. I have hot chocolate. I so I take protein powder, more protein powder put it and I put it in hot milk and I make I make monk fruit. Whip cream actually my wife makes it she takes mom's really good She takes monk fruit and she whips it in whipped cream, and it's delicious, and it's tastes like regular whipped cream, but

That, all those things are really, really good. So yeah, if I'm, but you know, if I'm like out with my kids and we're. At some awesome restaurant and they're like hey we have tiramisu for dessert Like tiramisu is not something you can get that's not you know, your family your wife's not making tiramisu Yeah, it's not just cruising. It's not yeah, it's not like oh, I'm gonna run like I can't pull it out of the cabinet Yeah, so if there's a Situation like that. We call it a situation. All right, am I gonna get into that? Am I gonna get into that tiramisu or whatever? So yeah, I'm not Some I'm not crazy I'm not obsessed with food I don't even I don't even Even like some people love food, right? Like I will take no time. Like barbecuing and they marinate it all day and all that stuff I don't do any of that if it was up to me I would just I would eat like chicken from a

Can and mayonnaise and that's like I'm I put nuts in there and that's like a great meal to me. It tastes fine. Do I? Enjoy having awesome steak 100% do I want to cook it and clean it and all that stuff not really so I'm Um... I'd say, you know, that's kind of me. I have, you know, I have chocolate, like 80% chocolate. Which is pretty low in sugar. You know, I eat that that's very gratifying to me. I find that if you go below 70%, you want more. It's like you can actually tell. 70% chocolate, you want more chocolate. Or higher you have like two squares and you're like, okay. Um, no, thanks. Yeah good cuz it tastes good But it doesn't taste that good. And it probably lacks the whatever-- - Sweetness. - The sweetness for the mental-- I mean like repeat mode like again again again again. So yeah, I don't I'm not crazy. I'm not obsessed with food if I feel like

like chowing down on something that's, you know, that is not great. You know, since I started making milk, I used to eat more ice cream. I would make mint chocolate chip milkshakes. Like take a scoop of ice cream, Milk in there and stir it up. Now I just have mint chocolate chip moch, which is delicious. And it tastes to me like dessert. Covered a lot of those bases and you also train a lot though. I train a lot. Yes, and that's true like if you go surfing and You did you jitsu and you lifted in a day? Like bring a pizza on because you need You know, you need to have some of that energy some of that food some of that fuel. So yeah, I'm not I'm not crazy I'm not obsessed with food, but I also am not stupid and I also recognize I also recognize guys. I always tell people like remember what it feels like when you get done working out. It feels good Like there's there's very few situations one percent of time. Do you get done working out and you feel worse very

Seldom does that happen? It's the same thing with food very seldom. Do you eat eight freaking donuts like echo Charles and And And you don't feel like dude, I don't feel as good very seldom does the does the good? Feeling outlast the last swallow of the of the the infraction - The infraction. - So I know that and you know, but I. I'm not I'm not obsessed with it And I work out a lot That's one thing is this kind of like a lot of this new medicine has come out you mentioned it you like You were like, I hate to say this, but working out is more important than diet. And as that has become, because in the-- - In like the world of body building, it's actually flipped, right? - Right, but that's not exactly, and it's also not physiologically natural. I mean, there's only so much. Muscle somebody could put on from a physiologically natural perspective but

But it's flipped in the bodybuilding world because you need to because you're trying to get shredded right and the shred the aesthetic shred is more based on your diet than it is based on your working out of course you need to do cardio and lift and and if you if you do Things correctly you can eat a little bit worse. But for the most part, if you're going to be a body builder, it's more... More about diet than it is about lifting. I guess for a true body builder, it's also more about the steroids that you're taking to get that jacked, but. So it's like steroids diet and steroids diet and then lifting. Yeah. And, and you know, not to discredit that you. The guys that do steroids you also have to lift super heavy I can't just do steroids and then expect to be Ronnie Coleman, right right Ronnie Coleman Been freaking lifted heavy as hell and they're very disciplined and deeply focused.

Mentioned something about very rarely do you train and then feel worse. It's again Goes back to this, people will always talk about endorphins. Okay, we know this, but when you... Train skeletal muscle releases, these myokines, it also affects something called-- ENF in the brain, brain derived neurotropic factor. It helps with neurogenesis and it helps with memory. Cognition and there are components to training that help with mood. Mm-hmm. I wrote about this in the book called discipline equals freedom field management I wrote about all those things because it's not just bro science Ninety nine point nine percent of the time when you get done working out you feel better than when you then if you didn't work out so Enough exercise and like I said, there's you the whole you cover meal plans. You got recipes in there. Listen, why? Why did I do this? I did that because we have to eliminate excuses. Why is it that--

70% of Americans are either overweight or obese, so why? And then why is it that the majority of people don't work out? I had to create something that if you believe. That we can be as humans strong, capable, and resilient, and have capacity, I needed to take out any excuse. That's why I put all that stuff in there. Yeah So get that get the book get those details Then we're gonna go into the next part which we were just kind of starting to bump into anyways, which is training which is Exercise and you say this exercise is your body's birthright? We humans were designed for physical movement and our bodies are capable of extraordinary feats. Don't think Of training as an activity with health benefits, instead consider it as a baseline requirement for wellness and an essential component of maintaining health and protecting longevity. Exercise is traditionally divided into and I'm fast-forwarding. There's more details

exercise is traditionally divided into either endurance cardio or strength weights. This is a fine starting point for understanding the different ends of the spectrum, but the interplay of different activity types is more complex and many common beliefs around effective training haven't kept pace with research advancements and Then you go in to talk about resistance exercise Training, endurance training, and then high intensity interval training hit, which surprisingly has been around for a long time. But people really have more recently Understood the effectiveness of it. It is The this is going from the book is internal interval training exercise that calls for short bursts of activity followed by short periods of lower intensity movements so This is what we're talking about. You got a lift You got to do some kind of endurance and you should probably combine them

Those two together to do some kind of high intensity interval training. - Yes, and I'll say that people will talk about this zone two cardio. Zone two cardio is having its moment right now. Longer endurance. Yes, it's great for VO2 max, etc. We've talked about that ad nauseum. But I would say from a practical aspect that you can improve your VO2 max, you can improve your health status by doing high intensity. So the less time you're training, the more you have to get after it. It's not about being Like the cardio bunny or well I weight lifted for 45 minutes, if you do not have time, you should up the intensity. That's that's one of those things that you have levers and what's cool is for me personally. There's days

Where some high-intensity workout like I'm feeling worn down I'm feeling like you know what I'm gonna do something That's longer endurance. There's also times where I'm don't either don't have time or sometimes you don't see I don't feel like going For an hour long run. Guess what I feel like doing? Jacking some steel, doing some deadlifts, whatever the case may be. So having all of these in your in your repertoire is very important and And then making sure that you don't focus on the one that you like the most. Right because it's real easy to be like well you know I like to be jacked and Echoes over here on his ninth set of bicep curls But even echo has opened up his mind now In the past 10 years where he trains he does met cons with high intensity, you know

Training, still lifts heavy. What is your, do you ever do like. Slow cardio type thing Only when he has donuts because the jujitsu falls it in that category Jesus beautiful Jiu-jitsu really does help you with it's it's a little bit of hit but it's also Like you go enroll for an hour, which is pretty common to go and train for an hour five minute rounds But during the rounds you're not going 100% for five minutes. You can't do that. You can go but Sometimes you gotta go really hard for 32 seconds, and then you get in a position you can kind of settle down, you get a little bit of then you go going again. Jitsu is a beautiful thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I do Yes, like go for runs for like yeah, like 30 45 minutes or something like that, but no not is not as often And I think that, you know, Jack, what you said in the beginning is you don't stop, you continue to do it. And that's, again, what is the ultimate outcome that we want is we don't want to

to get injured so that people can continue to train. And then using movements that you would use in real life that are more functional. That maybe have rotation, whether it's swinging a kettlebell or, you know, doing a chop or you know carrying heavy weight. - Exactly, unbalanced weight, doing things that potentially translate, 'cause we're not training to get better at exercise. We're training to get better at life and to be more capable at life. What are the actions that we can take that will move us closer to do that? Whether it's jujitsu, throwing around kettlebells, or unbalanced kettlebell weights, or putting Overhead, those kinds of movements we have to continue to do. Because it's not, I hate to say this, it's not an if, but it's a when.

Train for life because there is typically a time something will happen. Whether you have the flu for a week or you, I don't know, get injured, something happens. You have to plan for it. For those times. And I know that that's morbid, but the more you can build up your body and be able to have Movements and motions that will translate to real life, that is your best defense. And it's real easy and this is a huge ongoing conversation that I've heard had with a Burt Soren You know who per sworn is from Soren X anyways um He was like a thrower in college. He's a stud but I was talking to him about just movements and how how if you

There's movements where, let's say for whatever reason, like I hurt my arm very bad doing jiu-jitsu, I couldn't straighten my arm, and I couldn't do overhead squats for nine months. And when I finally Went back to do overhead squats. I could straighten my arm all like okay, I could barely do one And so I was like right back with the PVC pipe meaning no weight and Any It would have been real easy to be like, well, you know, I'm getting old. That's pretty much your ego talking of like, well, you know, I used to be able to do that, but I don't need to do that anymore. Or your ego saying like oh if I can't do it, then I'm just gonna pretend that it doesn't exist type thing Or you say you know what? I'm not gonna submit this movement. I'm not gonna give up this movement. I'm gonna get it back and That's what you do Start with the PVC pipe then you go with the bar then you put the the tens on then the

25s then the then the 35s then you got the 45s you're kind of back in the game and you can Definitely rebuild what you've lost so again If you're in a situation in life where you stopped working out for whatever reason and you used to build the put breath Bench three wheels and now you can barely do a freaking push-up. Well guess what? You can get it You might not be able to get it all back, whatever. You know what you should do, try and get it back. With your squats. It's the same thing with any movement that you Could do you can likely get back to something close to that and if you can't get close get as close as you can. And you know what I'm hearing? I'm hearing you say set standards instead of goals. Set standards for how you're going to operate instead of goals. I like that and I do that so I have some kind of like workouts that I do where

whether it's pull-ups, whether it's dips, whether it's squats, where like, let's say pull-ups. Do 300 pull-ups in this workout and that's just kind of what we're doing and it may be oh I haven't I've been sick. I've hurt my shoulder and I haven't been able to do as many pull-ups as it but you got to go I'm gonna do 300 pull-ups And it's gonna take me however long it's gonna take me, but it's gonna take a half an hour Maybe it's gonna take 40 minutes. Maybe it's gonna take me an hour But I'm gonna do them and then you got to hold that standard so yeah Believe you can have standards or you should have standards of what you're gonna be able to do and then if you if you Below the standard You've got to work to get it back Because I think a lot of people fall below the standard and instead of work to get it back They just set a new standard a little bit lower Not not not ideal So you got to be careful that? Um...

In the book you got all kinds of you you go through like various workouts that you can do you got beginner level workouts You got intermediate level workouts You've got a bunch of really good information that people can use to kind of get their workouts going and I think for the very Fitness savvy people what this does is it puts science behind the bro science and that becomes important if we're trying to reach and change the world from this obesity centric view to more of a muscle centric view is we have to have science behind the reasons and behind the protocols. And so, again, let's say someone is-- Advanced at training, they're like, I don't need a training program. The information there is meaningful because-- that will allow an individual to talk about the science of muscle health and why it's so much more. Yeah, and also Give them maybe a little bit of direction or a little bit of better understanding. I've been very happily surprised over the past I

How long have you done this podcast for eight years? Wow, so I've been very pleasantly surprised when my personal experiences A lot aligned with echoes bro science and aligned with legitimate You know whether it's Huberman whether it's Jordan Peterson whether it's you or Kirk parsley or Peter Attia and I've been doing where I'm like, oh, that's why that was effective. Occasionally it's like, oh, maybe I was a little. To focus on the but most of the time it's been oh, yeah. Okay. Here's a stupid example Like, oh, you should, when you go outside in the morning, you shouldn't wear sunglasses 'cause they block UV light. Well, for. When I run I sweat and so I don't like to wear glasses in the morning I run in the morning starting like to wear glasses because it gets sweat on the glasses So I just don't wear them. So just luck but now I actually go oh, that's actually a good thing So so these little things that line up is...

You have better understanding and you can then focus on them. So it's the same thing that you're saying with this book, These things and start to understand maybe some of the methodology and the science behind the bro science. And where you're at, right? If you want to order your own blood labs, where the, you know, you have to have metrics so you have an understanding of where you are. To ultimately identify where you're going to be. If you continue, let's say you're not training hard enough. You're not eating right for your body, it's gonna show up. And if you look at it, then you can circumvent a downstream effect early on, and that's the. That's the real goal is how do we allow people to live to their full capacity. And it's not just about doing things. It's about doing the right things at the right time for the right outcome. A Fast forward a little bit in the book. You've got a section here about mindset and you've got the five I've funded.

Mental attributes for mindset here. The first one that you talk about is courage. Why is courage number one? Well Can I tell you, so you know, books typically take time to write, and I actually have an even better mindset component. That I would love to share let's go that okay. I've in you and I were talking about this Prior, is that a? Of the practice is all operators. And there are certain themes. That I have seen and I'd love to tell you a story. So I had one patient had come to me, he had been in the, he'd been in the team. Reacher had been in the teams for 20 years, never been injured, was home from a deployment. I'm on his motorcycle going five miles an hour. A 17 year old girl texting and driving took him out and he lost his leg. He had come to my clinic and, you know. Was like, hey man, are you okay? Oh, you know, yeah, I'm tired, you know, normal.

It's totally no big deal, right? This was months after, maybe this was six or eight months after. And I was like, no dude, how are you really doing? You know, I'm five one, I'm married. I took care of a lot of team guys, he's gonna tell me. He looked at me like I asked him where was the box of tampons? And he was like, Oh, you mean my leg? Doc, that was like six months ago. Like, what are you talking about? And I was like, oh my gosh, this guy. Actually was totally neutral about the impact that whatever. This thing had happened and here in my mind, I'm telling this whole story about he's never going back to teens, he's never gonna be deployed, he's gonna have to do X, Y, and Z. And he was very neutral. And I called my husband, I was like, Oh, hey.

So-and-so was in the clinic and it was like dead silence on the other line and he was like, Honey, yeah, what are you talking about? That was like eight months ago. - Mm-hmm. - And it was at that moment, so yes, I talk about courage and I talk about these attributes, but I would-- Say the most important component, again it's trends over time of who you see, was that there is a level of neutrality that those... Individuals that exceeded the highest level have. There isn't a story, they never get too high, and then they never get too low. It is kind of controlled neutrality, and I have seen that over and over and over again. And that's actually what-- Struck me. Yeah, I mean, I just call balance. I wrote a book called the dichotomy of leadership and like the key, the key component of a good leaders that they're balanced. I'm like you just said when I win I'm not jumping for joy when I lose I'm not throwing my

Fists into the wall. I'm gonna be neutral. I'm gonna be balanced when good things happen. I'm not gonna Let them go to my head when bad things happen I'm not gonna let them tear me apart when I'm not gonna get overly emotional, but I'm not gonna be too detached So it's just being balanced Absolutely is a key component and also you know flying off that you know I I don't know if you've seen this, but I would imagine that if you You have someone that's gonna focus on their health. And so they become totally obsessed and they go very extreme. That's probably not gonna last as long than if they go, okay, I'm gonna start doing the right things. I'm not gonna go crazy. Like even when you're just asking me, like, do I eat chocolate chip cookies? It's like, well, yeah, I do. Chocolate cookies do I like whatever these, you know, mint chocolate chip milkshake or tiramisu. Yeah. It was like, I'm not going crazy. So I think there's. Does it apply there too with people trying to like change their lives without going to the extreme where it's unsustainable? Does it apply yes

And I would say that the higher a person goes, the lower they go. It's not this baseline. So let me give you an example. I take care of a lot of entrepreneurs. And right before a big event, let's say they put on a huge event in Vegas and they are so amped up and they are just on a high. I can predict. That as high as they go, on the flip side, is as low as they're going to go. And at that peak and at that trough, those are points of high vulnerability. Those are the points where they're going to go off their training program. Those are the points that... Points maybe they're gonna drink more, maybe they're gonna buy another car, maybe they're gonna cheat on their wife, like whatever the extremes at that peak in that trial. That is when they are most vulnerable. How does that translate to health? Nothing will take a high performer out as fast as those high performers.

Highs and lows. And it's actually, people will say, Oh, the highs are great. No, because there is this, almost this dopamine drive. That it becomes depleted and you don't go to a, if one of these many knives was a baseline, you don't go 028 baseline you mirror as high as you're going to go is as low as you go. Yeah, and if you mitigate that Then you can prevent these Predictable downstream effects of human nature. Humans are interesting. They're so shocked by their own human nature. It cannot believe, you show me a person, you show me their habits, I will tell you how successful they are. Because there are just patterns, and they are shocked each time by their own humanness. I Got this you got clearly you get to see that in the teams because you get guys going on deployment Then the deployment is like one kind of high because you're very great

With what you're doing and then you come home and maybe now you've got like problems cuz you know You had this girlfriend and she took all your money and you? dog and like so you go this up and down thing but it was a really Condensed version of that was fighters in the MMA world like Grueling camp for eight weeks, you know, getting beat up and then Final weight cut, very draining, very low, and then they go out and fight, they win. It's like, man. I've been to those parties like those dudes are freaking going crazy. They're making so many bad decisions that night, or they lose and now. Guess what? They're doing same thing that bunch of bad decisions just terrible whether it's the higher the low the freaking performance or the the Activities following a big win or a big loss are almost the same which is kind of crazy the pros And he's a man of the stars.

Guys actually I'm talking about professional fighters but the really successful guys they win it's like cool I won they're there yeah they're they're happy but they're gonna continue to train they're not Like, you know, you can, when the guy says, I'm gonna be back in the gym on Monday, when the guy says that, that's a really important thing. I just need some downtime and I'm gonna you I Love when I hear a fighter say I'll be back in the gym on Monday Monday. Win or lose, I'll be back in the gym on Monday. What a good statement to make. But when you say, Well, you know, it was a really tough camp and I'm just looking to, but no, I'm going to-- - A warrant against that, be careful of it. - The pros do exactly what you said. The people at the top. Have a level of neutrality where the big accomplishments don't affect them and the big losses also don't affect them.

The neutrality is really, I don't want to say superpower, that sounds pretty stupid, but it is a level of capacity that rookies don't have. With newer entrepreneurs or individuals like that, and those that cultivate that capacity of neutrality, they're exceptional. Yep. Stay balanced everybody you got courage, but so before you added Balance and neutrality into this you had courage perseverance obviously got to stick with things self-discipline clearly big supporter of that over here Good one to remember because things aren't gonna go as planned. You're not going to have that food prep that you did and you left it at home and now what are you going to do or are you going on? Traveling and you talk a lot about traveling in here because you travel but you know Oh the gym didn't have what I want to work

So I'm just not gonna do anything. You gotta be adaptable and then resilience. These are kind of the key components that you talk about. - Yeah, and courage, this is gonna be surprising but. There is a level of courageousness that is required to feel worthy of excellence. - Believe it or not, when an individual doesn't seem to be reaching their full potential. I'm seeing a guy or a girl and they're not getting it together. It comes down to they don't feel worthy of having the health or the body or the discipline or the thing that comes with that execution. Which is surprising but worthiness feeling worthy of actually being that person trips people up What does that look like like give me a little bit?

- Yeah, let's say there's a really successful guy that is. You know, he's very successful at his business. He has all this outward discipline. The business is a multimillion dollar business. He's running teams, he's doing great, and he is a slob. - You mean physically? - Physically. He is able to execute on the external business and have external discipline, but there is no internal discipline Because that internal discipline would require a bit of courage For him to identify with something else, become a different type of person. Feel worthy of the success that he's having. And that may seem silly, like if a team guy's listening, they may be like, ah, come on, get out. I'm gonna rip off my shirt, whatever. But for many people, an unexamined mind will lead to components of sabotage.

They will only ever go as high as they feel worthy. An individual will feel worthy in business and not feel self- Worthy of the success that they have obtained. The only way through that is oftentimes a courageous step. It does require courage to cultivate a way of... Familiarity. So the less than version of themselves becomes familiar. And when we I'll see you next time. Understand familiarity that becomes the normal even though it's not meaningful it's just normal and courage is required to question that Behavior that component of health and wellness Yeah, you just get comfortable with this normal state that you're in and it takes some courage to Say I'm not going to live like that anymore

- Yeah, and the lack of discipline becomes familiar. familiar and an-- will be surprised by that and will often fall back on the zone of comfort. And it's not that they feel comfortable being a slob. It's that that is what they know to be the normal Yeah Can't let that happen. Um I'm gonna close out the book just look again. I just read some highlights of the book I'm gonna close out with this one little section that you've got here. It says choose You're hard far too often and usually without much thought people default into taking the easiest path Choosing to do things the least difficult way is what we are programmed to do It's part of who we are or maybe who have we who we have become unfortunately doing What's convenient right now is no lasting strategy. It merely makes things more difficult later on

Cases Instead of always looking for the path of least resistance try choosing to do the hard things in life That's what makes us strong Like I said, there's I mean the book is several hundred pages long 400 pages long so there's tons of information in the book for people to refer to to go back to Who compare what they've been doing where they've been doing things right maybe where they've been doing things wrong. So forever strong That's what we're doing What else you got going on besides the book? I actually have a podcast. Okay, what's the podcast called? The Dr. Gabrielle Lyon show. Shocking. - Yep, hey. - Easy to find, very easy to find. We also have a membership, people can find out about that on the website. It is if people have questions.

They can join. We have an expert on every week. Pretty cool to clear up some of these questions, whether it's hormone questions, etc. I do have a practice and I have a concierge medical practice, more information myself, there are other providers. And two really important, and obviously-- You can find me on Twitter or Facebook or X, et cetera, or YouTube. - And all those things very conveniently are all at Dr. Gabrielle, Dr. Gabrielle. That up, dr. Gabriel lion.com. Dr. Gabriel lion on YouTube. Dr. Grab a line on Instagram Facebook Book tour year there which is called X now by the way. Yes I wanted to mention may I mention two other things that I think are really important.

We didn't get a chance to talk about this, but I'm hoping at some point in the future we will. There is a foundation called Hunter Seven Foundation that does early detection for veterans and military operators and those in the military which has done a really great job at early cancer detection. It's called Hunter Seven Foundation. I strongly recommend people. Check it out. It's really important. The other thing that I would like to mention is Seal Future Foundation for those individuals listening for those operators and their family listening. I sit on the Board of Health for Seal Future Foundation. We see a lot of of the guys coming out and their families, their wives, their family members. So I think that that's also something very important to mention. Know those are awesome organizations. I hadn't I didn't know about I knew about the seal future foundation obviously I didn't know about

Hunter seven until you told me about it. That's just awesome awesome So many of these diseases, cancers, if you catch them early, there's no factor. Catch them late. They kill you like it's it's insane And so to give people what hunter seven doesn't again you explain this to me before you hit record giving these Former special operations guys, this screening, to catch these things early and save their lives. You were telling me that there's a big percentage of them that they get caught, just like with any part of the populace. Don't get screened and you don't get looked at these cancers just grow inside your body and guess what guess when you notice them when you freaking have major issues. And by then, oftentimes, it's too late. That's an awesome organization. And then yeah the seal future foundation another great organization that helps take care of seals and you know

The job of being a seal whether there's a war going on or not is Really hard on your body. It's really hard you're shooting Carl Gustav Rockets, you're sitting there doing explosive breaching. You're getting beat up in boats. You're jumping out of airplanes landing hard. You're firing machine guns. You're firing 50 Caliber machine guns Everything that you're doing you're around all those chemicals that all those things produce explosives you're lacking sleep like there's Everything just about everything that you can do is bad for you like the job itself is bad for you Look you work out to try and stay in shape for the job, but the job itself is not good for you. So So-- To have these guys live through that for 20 years, 25 years, 30 years, by the time they get done with that, need some help medically. So these are awesome awesome organizations that help out with that

That someone like you with your knowledge is on the board and connected with those things because obviously I am a big supporter of that community and That these organizations that are helping that community is awesome and clearly you're a supporter that community as well since you Made the fatal error of meeting a teen guy one night and that's what I I I actually told him that there was zero chance and I did not pick up the phone for like two months. Just that. Would not stop but you know what he had courage he had resilience He had balance like he was he had the met the mindset to make it happen. That's Goes a long way. So is that get us up to speed? We're good. We've got dr. Gabriel Lion calm and then you got Twitter YouTube. Yeah, you got your podcast same title So good universal titling. I like it. Is that good to substitute? It does. Yes, sir

Eko-charls we got four questions. Oh, do you remember what year you were in Hawaii? No, I don't what about roughly was it before 2001 - Yeah, yeah, yeah, Kawhi. I was on Kawhi. - On Kawhi, my hood. - Really, are you from Kawhi? - I'm from Kawhi. - Are you serious? - But at that time, 'cause I went to UH, University of Hawaii. - Are you serious? - Yeah, yeah, yeah, so I was probably there. - That's my favorite place in the world. So we lived in Princeville. - Oh, right on there. - And then we... Princeville and then we were near Hanalei? - Yeah, yeah, North Shore, LA. It's good. - I love Kauai. - I grew up on the South Side. - Okay, and is that Poipu? - Poi poo. - Yeah, hell yeah. All day, all day, right on. Yeah, so from '95 to '99, I was on Oahu though. - Okay, yeah. - At school. - Amazing. - I know, Princeville is super nice though. - Yeah. - Are you with like a rich family? - Yeah, I mean.

- They were, but it wasn't that rich at the time. Now it's just like crazy. - Yeah, it's just principle. Also, So, okay, so if I go to the doctor hypothetically, and they say, hey, all your nine, I get my blood work done, they say, hey, all your numbers are great. Cholesterol is kind of high. - So is this for the podcast? Or is this not for the podcast? - No, no, no, this is the deal. - Oh, okay, 'cause I was like, I'll take care of that. I got that, I can do that for you. - Yeah, see, and-- - We should do a, I'm happy to do that. We can do a full cardiac screening, like a legitimate, not just cholesterol. - Okay, so, 'cause, okay, so I used to drink. And I was like, hey, I'm getting older now. So and this was like probably like a decade of solid drinking - That's impressive. - This could be problematic kind of thing. I wasn't feeling nothing, except for every once in a while I'd feel like, kind of like dismal, just in general. We'll see.

So I was like, all right, let me get my blood. I don't need my liver just conking out one day, you know? So let's get some blood work done. See, see all the things. So, but I would. Still work out, still do all that stuff, right? Even sometimes twice a day, this whole thing. So I went, got the blood work done, and everything looked good, everything. Acaenosolid drinking like all this stuff. So I'm like frick it's probably cuz I'm still working out hard But they did say my cholesterol is high Another guy that I know who's kind of this athletic type or whatever. He was like, I don't worry about that Because that could mean other stuff, you know, there's like more to it than that. Is that true? I would agree with that. We wouldn't just look at cholesterol. We'd look at something called an apo B We'd look at insulin resistance. We'd look at a Particle panel there's other things I would not typically just treat off of total cholesterol that's a little bit archaic I think. And obviously you know

with my bachelor's, well, more of an associate's in bro science, I was like, hey. - I think you got a doctorate, bro, in bro science. He was like, Hey, I'm gonna prescribe you some medication. But I was like, No, I'm not gonna take the med. And I didn't take the medication, never did. And then that's when I talked to my-- Other friend and he was like no there's more to it than that different bro. Yeah That's funny, you know, it depends if it It's hypercholestero, familial hypercholesterolemia, we would really have to look at the full picture. And then the next level of that would be doing something called a GB insight. And what that is is that would be a genetic profile of the kind of medication or where, so let me take a step back. It will show us where the defect is.

Absorbing too much of the lipids? Are you not excreting them, etc. So it would show us exactly where the challenge is as to why your levels would be high and then it allows What kind of medication would an individual use? What is the target? So that's what I would do. And then finally, really getting imaging. So it's not just blood. You have to see something called, what we use is a clearly scan. So it shows hard and soft plaque. - Is that like a DEXA scan? Is that different? - Not quite. It's a CT scan and they put dye in you and you, it'll look at, it's a whole thing. - It's a whole thing. - It's a whole thing. - It's a whole situation. - It's a whole thing. - It's a whole thing. - It's a whole situation. - Yes, ma'am. - But I will tell you, I. I'm gonna try to all of this stuff out on my husband. - Okay. - So it's all good. And as long as I prep you before.

But that is very valuable because you have to address a challenge despite. Where the standards of care are, if there is an inclination that this has to be addressed. We should look at it from a comprehensive view because... More progressive physician will be able to identify the pillars, for example, whether it's a genetic test, whether it's an ApoB. Whether it is insulin resistance, etc. and then take an action. That makes sense. Kind of confirmed my deal as always. Last question. So let's say grapes. Right, grapes, the fruits. Can we overeat grapes? Yeah, you can overeat anything. Uhm, grapes. Again, could they be healthy totally they do have more fructose. You're not gonna overeat fructose on just grapes. But yeah, so, okay, so So-- - Talk about overeating into the carbs. - There is, it's a little bit of a...

It's a little bit of a Pandora's box, but I think grapes are great. They do have sugars. um, if... If you really wanted to get crazy with it, you could throw a glucose monitor on yourself, See how high your blood sugar goes, and then see how you feel. - I have these grapes, right? I ate two steaks, some rice, and then we had some grapes. You know, with the kids, they're fun, and there are some really good grapes. You know, some grapes are a lot more sweet than others. You know, these are the way on this side of the spectrum of sweetness, and I felt like I over-ate the grapes, 'cause I was already full, but I was like, but I can't stop eating these grapes. See what I'm saying, like, is that a thing? For example, blueberries stay super good, but after a while you're like, Bruh, I'm kind of done with these blueberries after a little bit. But the grapes weren't like that. See what I'm saying? I felt like they were overriding my like the whole the whole thing. No, no stock - I would've probably if I didn't catch myself. - No, I think that with your amount of activity, it would be very difficult to.

Really over consume. I have less worry about that. Is it a red flag though that I'll It was like super full from all the steak and rice and stuff and then I was still like, I can't stop eating it. Isn't that like a small red flag in and of itself? - No, because the truth is you could have stopped eating it. You didn't want to. - Yes, yeah. Just felt like it was like an addiction being carried out right there in front of my eyes You would have kept going that's what she's saying like you call yourself Yeah, but I'm a very strong and disciplined person as far as addiction go for the most Part but I'm just saying let's say I'm a little kid or something like this you know and I'm like probably are these are these grapes genetic? engineered, you know what, you know how they put extra stuff in it to make them taste sweet or whatever? They have definitely changed fruits over time. To make them more sweet and more palatable. - Yeah. - Yes. Have you ever had grapes that have just--

like heirloom, not heirloom grapes. - Yeah, like wild cotton grapes or whatever. - Oh, terrible. Anything wild that has never been engineered at all is just awful. - Have you ever had the cotton candy grapes? - Yeah. - Have you had those? - Yes. - Have you had those? - Yeah. - Those are crazy. - That's part of why I'm saying it, 'cause grapes are one of those ones. There's these, I think they call them black grapes. They're super dark purple, probably the same one. You can't stop eating because it's so sweet. So I got to know there's something going on is what I feel but if you're if you know if you're telling me hey These are fruits. So just like celery or blueberries or whatever, but eat as many as you need. No, it's not that. But here's what I would say. Prove it to yourself. Throw it out. Or glucose monitor on, see actually what happens, and then once you do that, you'll know exactly. And you'll either. Never do it again or you'll keep doing it. - Carry on. - Carry on. - So get to the bottom of it then basically. - Yes sir. - Addiction, addiction, there we go.

You got any more questions many more, but we're gonna leave it at that for now. Maybe next time yeah, all right well Any closing calls from you? No? I just want to thank you for everything that you do that you guys both do for the community Well, I appreciate it now it's um glad you could make it down here. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for sharing this information. Thanks for putting that book together. Thanks for doing what you do to help normal people. People get on the path stay on the path and clearly thanks for what you do for the seal community with hunter 7 with the seal Foundation it's awesome and and thanks for continuing to work with people to help them Get healthier in all aspects of their lives and of course stay forever strong. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks And with that Gabrielle has left the building

- Trying to stay strong out there. - Yes we are. Confirmation bias. Yeah, we might but big time but we also have some science Bro science we're trying to get stronger we're trying to be stronger we want to have muscle we want to eat Protein, we wanna work out, that's what we're doing. So confirmation bias, perhaps, but let's face it. - Kinda true. - Hey, when you're an actual trained, experienced professional, saying it. I don't think that that's necessarily bias. Well, let's face it. You and I have a bias. Yes that supports everything that she just said. Yeah, right that being said she you know she's seen thousands of patients right she's gone through the

She's experienced it herself. So confirmation bias yes, but even If you remove that, you gotta listen up. Hey listen, if you just think, yeah Echo and Jock are just meatheads, they're just working out protein, if that's what you're thinking right now and you wanna throw this away, I would strongly recommend against that. And there are, there now is. Real science, and you just heard from a doctor talking about why. Lift weights, run, sprint, eat protein. Work on your building muscles. What an awesome thing. It's gonna be a great thing. It's gonna be a great thing. You better in every aspect of your life. You've been saying that since whatever number podcast lifting and working out will help. Every aspect of your life more than anything else. It's the same thing that she's saying so Bro science converged real science converged where they're lift weights eat clean eat protein that's what we're doing

And she was asking about protein, right? We know, and one of the things she's got in the book is 30 grams of protein. Like get that 30 grams of protein. At every meal. That's why guess what a mochas gets an RTD mochas 30 grams of protein That's what we're doing out of the gate And and that's another thing she got in the book because I read the book I didn't read the whole thing today, but she was like hey if you're going to somewhere where there may be Inappropriate foods - Before you go there, have a moke before you go there. Have a moke before you go there. Instead of having six slices of freaking pizza, maybe you have a singular slice. And you could bargain with yourself, well, I would rather just have four pieces not have the no have the protein have something That's good for you. Then go there the other point that I brought up about wait till tomorrow to take Day off wait till tomorrow to have the pizza good advice. Yeah So that's what we're doing get that protein in but moch

She also asked me about do I go off the path bro? If I think about back in the day how much mint chocolate chip ice cream I used to have. Yeah before moch and Milk tastes so good. It gives you this satiety. The satisfaction of having a dessert. It's protein. Yeah, so good for you. So that's what we're doing. You should do that too, by the way jocko fuel calm jocko fuel calm Get some of that get some of that protein Get some of that Get some hydrate get some greens creatine and greens. Are you doing that combo yet? Are you doing hydrating greens? I drink no hydrate create hydrate creatine Get the creatine in your system. It's another thing that's gonna just jack of you Did you get the reports from k-dog about the three wheels? Yeah, he's he's up to three wheels first time

So carry first time in his life by the way how old scary 30 something 30 30 something 30 never never never bench three wheels before yeah well yes no no he has now yeah well guess what get some that jocko creatine part of the program. Oh, yeah, and all of a sudden getting stronger So that's what we're doing. Right and there's no denying that right if you're like, hey, I've never been 315 Doesn't matter if it's 315 two wheels four wheels, whatever if you if you're like, hey, I've never done this But I do want to get this in and you take creatine versus not take creatine creatine is gonna get you there quicker Oh, yeah and - Oh yeah, factually in that. And so this is what Gabrielle Lyon said, actually after we were recording, she brought up the creatine. So it was like, it was yet another confirmation.

The the cretin among other things are one of these things that men if you if you implement these certain things in into your protocol Yeah, another thing in your protocol speeding protocol seriously joint warfare take joint warfare take krill oil Take time war these things So good so good for you. Anyways, you guys know the deal jocko fuel go to jocko fuel calm. That's That's where you can get you can also get a vitamin chop GNC military commissaries Hey, Nefees or a fees Hannah first - doors in Maryland wake for and shop right H-E-B-H-E-B down in Taos Tails. Get in there appreciate you all down in Texas. Just keeping it real Keeping it real down there. The reports were getting you all are going in there and just getting after it So that's appreciate same thing with Meyer up in the Midwest. Thank you Go in there and get after it. We're doing some good deals at these places right now to create kind of crazy So get in there, Harris Teeter, Lifetime Fitness, Shields, small gyms everywhere. If you got a gym and you wanna.

Sell jocko fuel so everyone at your gym can get stronger faster smarter and healthier email jf sales at jocko food calm That's what we're doing jocko fuel calm get some Also origin USA American made American manufacturing back to America For a while, yeah, yeah, yeah, it did almost get lost We're down to the last and we got it. We have the knowledge now. We got 20 year olds that know how to operate a loom That's what we're doing So yeah, originusa.com. We've got everything you need. We got workout gear, we got jiu-jitsu gear, rash guards, gees. Jiu-jitsu gis That feel good, but like another element of the world has come into play Not to mention jeans boots Hoodies t-shirts the whole night origin usa.com american manufacturing. None of this matters. None of

Anything that we're talking about matters if our country falls apart. So one of the components of That is economic strength. Why, where do we get economic strength? We have to be able to make things. We have to be self-reliant. We have to start somewhere. Where do you start? origin usa.com Crush communism support America, that's what we're doing swap with Also Jocko has a store called Jocko store aka Def core look this is if you want to represent on the path You don't care if someone's looking cool with someone if no one's looking cool But you still representing this is where you go is where you get your stuff shirts hoodies And we got a new hoodie, the quick flip one. Multiple purposes, converts into a, anyway, check it out. Discipline equals freedom has, we have, a new Discipline equals Freedom standard shirt.

20 24 coming up be on the lookout for that. It's not out yet But if you sign up for the email list on the on the store on the bottom there You can get alerted when they come out so you can get the first wave The first a dish as one might say Anyway, also there's a we have a little program if you were if you will subscription scenario called the shirt Locker. That's a new design Representing discipline equals freedom in one way or another. A little bit different, I get it, but you can get a new one every month. - Very much, right? - You like the whole thing. - Very much, dude, I do. - Everything you get to say there. - I like what we get to do, how about that? - You like this. - So, speaking of what I like. The new sugar coated lies shirt for the shirt locker for March has been deployed.

It's out there in production. No, no, it hasn't had it. Sorry in production. Sorry not deployed like they're not offered yet starts in march march 1st But yeah, it's good and good And it's not What someone would think or it is what someone would think put it this way what I think if you look at it This is what I think. I don't know. I can't read everybody's mind. Mm-hmm, but I that if you see it, you'll see the layers and you'll be like, I like it. I'm down for the design. - Okay. - Anyway, it's called the shirt locker. You like new designs every month? That's where you can get it, jockostore.com. Also speaking of getting things we talked about steak today. Yeah on this podcast. Yeah with Gabrielle. We talked about steak Get yourself some steak get yourself some good steak go to primal beef.com or coloradocraftbeef.com and get yourself Steak that tastes delicious and will give you protein That's what you're looking for Protein forward. Yeah, I kind of like that. Oh, yeah protein forward. I bet I told her I've been protein forward for a long time

I'm with protein forward. You know, what helps you be protein forward Colorado craft beef calm Primal beef calm go get yourself some steak. That's We're doing also subscribe to the podcast also jocko underground calm also YouTube channels. There's this YouTube channel There's jocko fuel YouTube channel They just put up a funny one. Did you see the one? with Chael. They put a woman with Chael's on it. It's really good. Chael's a freaking character. And he's beating his son with a belt. - Sure, hell yeah. And his son is like just there just having a blast man. It's just so freaking cool to see so check that one out Also origin USA. So check that one out, which is a little behind the scenes filming we had a Meeting down there in North Carolina at the factory talking about the we're now looking at the clothing that we're bringing out in 2025 some of its 24, but we

We're trying to plan more in advance and just bringing in better quality stuff. More options for everyone and made 100% in the United States of America, as I mentioned. So check that one out as well. Origin USA is the YouTube channel. Called YouTube channel okay, so there you go psychological warfare flipside canvas Dakota Meyer making cool Stuff to hang on your wall. We got a bunch of books obviously the book we just covered today forever strong by Gabriel, dr. Gabriel lion So check that one out. Also, I've written a bunch of books leadership strategies and tactics field manual final spin in. The evaluation protocol discipline because freedom field manual I brought that up a cool time since 2017 how old is that six years? Almost seven years almost seven years old. Guess what still pertinent hurt even you know, what more pertinent

Yes, there's no information there. You're like. Oh well that was back then no yeah, no no it's holding up. It's holding up well She was saying stuff today. She started starting to talk about The brain benefits of exercise it's in the book. Yeah, discipline extreme field meal. Check it out Uh, and of course, I've written a bunch of kids books It's books. Your kids need to be on the path. Your neighbor's kids need to be on the path. Your nieces and nephews and grandkids get them on the path send them in the right direction wave the warrior kids series check those out Mikey and the dragos check that out also extreme Dichotomy leadership Hackworth about face. These are all books. We have a leadership consultancy echelonfront.com if you want to Come out and help you with your organization you can do that also we have an online training Academy extreme ownership Academy go to extreme ownership calm if you want

to learn how to lead yourself and others through this arduous world that we're in. It's called life. You need skills. You can learn them. Extreme ownership comm check it out if you want to help service members active and retired you want to help their families gold star families Lee's mom momily she's got an incredible charity organization if you want to help You want to donate you want to get involved go to America's mighty warriors org also? Mike a fink up in the mountains Heroes and horses org also Jimmy May's organization beyond the Brotherhood org and then of course we have hunter 7 and the seal Foundation which Gabrielle talked about today check all those out if you want to support if you want to

Connect with us for Gabrielle. She's got DrGabrielleLyon.com. She's also on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, which is now called X by the way. Here good things and she has a YouTube channel So you can find her in all those locations. Dr. Gabrielle lion and it's dr. Dr. It's not like the full word So that's where you can find her and if you want to connect with echo and I I'm at Jocko won't get cuz I echo Joe just be careful because you go in there You got your head down. You're kind of like not aware of what's going on. You start your thumb It's your finger starts moving up swiping scrolling Inf it's called infinite scroll That's what it's called. It's called infinite scroll. Did you know that? No It's a thing it didn't used to exist infinite scroll What is that when you're just going because just scrolling you know, and there's like no end in sight and they invented that

It didn't exist a little while ago. You'd scroll and get to the bottom and guess what you do then stop scrolling you freaking go Yeah, pick up kettlebell. Yeah, it said you're all caught up. Yeah, remember that wait does it not say that anymore? No, I haven't seen that in one. It's infinite scroll. Think about that infinite scroll So you can get on and you can start to scroll and you can never leave that you die It's called yeah, and by the way, the things that showing you brutal are things that you want now, they're they're uh It can see you and it's watching your eyes Well, it definitely knows how long like when you scroll past something and it's like Oh Oh, that's a good guard pass you watch it. Oh, it shows you another guard pass Shows you another guard pass and then you go you see you see a karate thing you scroll

Right by that doesn't show you any more karate goes back to jujitsu. Now it shows like the details Yeah, now it's showing you a ghee now. It's you know what I mean? It's it's like troubleshooting your Thing it's it's like an infinite scroll customized for your dumbass Get to what's so into it. That's what it is. So just be careful the algorithm. It's a monster and We are only able to be sitting here tonight doing what we're doing because of our military troops out there right now Sacrificing their freedoms so we can keep ours. So thanks to all of our troops also Thanks to our police law enforcement firefighters paramedics EMTs dispatchers correctional officers border patrol Secret Service as well as all other first responders. Thank you for your sacrifices to keep us safe here at home And to everyone else out there, it's simple, but it's not easy. Simple, but it's not easy. Don't eat the junk.

Lift heavy things. Move. Don't submit your... Movements run sprint get the protein you need train. This is not complicated. It's not complicated This isn't rocket science This isn't brain surgery It's not complicated, but you have to have discipline you have to have discipline you have to impose discipline to get up Every day go out there and get after it Until next time this is echo and jocko out out.