Adam Frank is a physicist, astronomer, and writer. His scientific research has focused on computational astrophysics with an emphasis on star formation and late stages of stellar evolution. His new book "Light of the Stars: Alien Worlds and the Fate of the Earth" is available now on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Light-Stars-Alien-Worlds-Earth/dp/0393609014
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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alien worlds in the fate of earth. We talked about. It's fiction. We talked about science and climate change and uh some very important issues going on with human things in the world and just a really cool really smart guy and I really enjoy talking to him. So please give it up for Mister Adam Frank, the Joe Rogan ' join my Gagal Rogan podcast by night all day Boom Adam. What's up man, how you doing it's good to be here today? It's good to be here too, with you and talk it over, can't, be trusted, alien worlds and the fate of the earth just just the title alone. Like whoa love aliens, everybody loves aliens, everybody does. But what do you
thoughts on actual aliens and whether or not they've ever visited here yeah. It's interesting because uh, you know sort of two things. So, first of all, we should tell him have a background in science. I do a master synthesist at the University of Rochester on a research group that studies like stars and planets see not crazy person. I brought I'm here now now now I'm a card carrying scientist. I got my card and everything um. I've been doing research on astronomy astrophysics for a long time, but I also do all this popular writing like for NPR New York Times and This is this book came a because I love science fiction. Reading science fiction skid, but also I do a lot of work on climate change, and so I do a lot of climate change denial and what I realize was that like there's this way we talk about it. That is like completely forgets about the fact that, like we're, probably not the first, you know and that led me to whole bunch of research that eventually led to this book, including one paper that we did, that show
so that the odds that we're the only time it's ever happened, only the only civilization in the entire history of the universe the only way that that could be true is if the odds per planet are one in ten billion trillion right, that's pretty low right. You know the odds of anything being one in ten billion trillion, that's pretty fricking low. So it's probably happened before, you know, there's been other civilizations before ours, and once you realize that man that is, like you know, changes everything about how we think about are so loves you know and what's happening to us right now, so other civilizations before hours that affect things up. Well, that's kind of the premise: right. So that's what you know when you look at climate change right. Basically, what it is is civilizations are giant machines for turning enerji into work right. You know New York, city right, you sit over and you look at Manhattan, you're like holy shit. Yeah, there's all these energies flowing into it, and then there's all this work being done to keep everything moving and
you know: there's no way not to have an impact. If you build a world girdling civilization, which you know, that's what civilization is there's going to be impact. So the whole point of my doing this book was to start looking at ourselves as just one of you know we're not alone right. The only time this has ever happened doesn't mean anybody's around now, like that's a different question, but the idea that, like it's, never happened before it, meaning like you know you know, civilization was happening around us like these machinery and every that you know that, just in the new world of what we understand about planets and ship that is just like. You know it's not tenable anymore. We gotta wake up the idea that some civilization has to be the first one. That's that's! What the only the only way you could ever think that we are, the only ones is that some civilization has to be the first one, even in the universe, it's infinite yeah. It has to happen one time right, but the idea
These are the conditions ideal in you know a trillion different spots, all over the infinite expanse of the universe. Yeah and that's the thing right. So what we've learned so you know one of my trips right now is like this. Is not your grandfathers, steady anymore right, understanding we went through this major revolution in our understanding of planets about twenty years ago. So you look back at the Greeks right see them arguing about whether any other stars have planets other than the sun. And you know it goes back and forth. You know some of the Greeks were like yeah, it's definitely happening and then, like Aristotle, is like nowhere. The only world in this hole in the whole universe. You know that has life, as time goes on, it kind of goes back and forth, and even at the turn of the last of this, the nineteenth century people thought plans were incredibly rare that, like a they thought, the only can get a plan. It was of two stars past really close to each other in the kinda, like taffy, pulled out stuff. That would eventually for play and the answer. Those kinds of collisions are so small that people are like. You know what there's just no planets, no planets, no life. You know something really freaky is going on, but then, twenty years ago we disk,
First, isn't that crazy? When you really think about that twenty there's such a short amount of time. One thousand nine hundred and ninety eight yeah yeah Nobody knew before that, like nobody, whether there are any planets right when I was starting a strong people like well, we don't know whether there's going to be any other planets and we went from uh so. The first one is actually ninety six. I think nine thousand five hundred and ninety six from that to now we're. We know that every friggin star in the sky at the plant at least one you know pretty much everyone I mean the big giant ones, maybe not, but they are so rare that you know pretty much. Every star you see in the sky has a family of planets around it. That is so nuts it's so none of this is such a new discovery. Yeah I mean when we think about what we know about the universe. We think that we've had a pretty good understanding of it for a long time right, but the fact that we didn't even know for sure that there are planets right right in my own lifetime? You know people were teaching me when I was starting. Like you know, we just don't know, maybe they're rare and now we know
for certain that there everywhere anything people have to realize everyone of those planets is a place. You know I mean it's a place, you could walk, and some of them for sure, going to have oceans. There's going to be mountains is going to be rain, falling. You know I mean like they're, all freaking places and they're all places where things can happen. You know planets are basically like nature's way of taking sunlight and doing something interesting with it. So you have ten billion trillion planets in the universe right, everyone of them- is an experiment. That's being run so you know the idea that, like we're the first time it's out now that we know that right now that we've gone through that revolution and understand that planets are like dime a dozen it's not it's been only took my plans are to my plans- are in the right place for life to form. So is the idea that habitable zone right, so you know mercury sucks. You cannot be a mercury, so hot that there's no way things can happen and you know planets are for
are a far enough out there going to be so cold, the other so far away from their star that there can be so cold that the you know it's hard to get. What liquid water on the surface, so we define the habitable or goldilocks zone is a place where you can have you can port with with a water on the service and will sit there and freeze animal yes of the fabric away. So all these ten billion trillion planets antimatter all in the right place for life to form. You know, and so like with that many numbers that many experiments being run like you, gotta, be a psychotic pessimist to say that, like this is the only time of civilizations, it, happened right, but there's still no evidence yet. Obviously we didn't even know there really absolutely were planets until twenty. Go right, but we don't know for sure, there's something else out there. No, no! No! This is an argument by. I call it like an argument by exhaustion. You know if I gave you a bag of ten billion trillion planets and yet to sort through all of them right, the odds that you're going to you're, never going find another one that built a civilization is pretty now. You know, like I said, really asking for really serious pessimism, but we're just getting star
with this game right up looking for life. That's why I keep saying it's not. This is not your Father said he where you like your point. You know a radio telescope at a store, and you kind of wait to see whether somebody signal immune those, whether they're signaling, who knows what they'd be using now what we can do 'cause we got all these planets to stare at is we're going to be able to like stare at them as they pass in front of their star and get the light that passes through their atmosphere. So we're going to like knows what we're going to find. You know we're not waiting for them to signal us anymore over the next I swear to God, man in the next thirty years, we're going to have data relevant to the question of life, maybe not civilizations. That could happen too, but just life on other worlds, and we've never had that for all the arguments for the entire. Stick man have been too dude yelling at each other right, but in the next thirty years, 'cause the stuff we're building and now that we had no there's there's a planets were going to have real data to argue over with so it man it's like this is where we are in a whole other ballgame. Now I think the big fear for a lot of people is what happens when we find out for sure that there's something else out there if we really do find,
like some other Manhattan on some Goldilocks planet. It's hovering I'm similarly sized star a billion years away or whatever the hell it is that's going to be very, very, very strange. It will be. It will be. Game, changer right 'cause for religions, for you know, I mean wow. What do you do if you find other intelligent creatures who are building civilization, start making them pay taxes? That's what you do in your box. You go get Pist off, but they're not doing what you want him to do. You should be believe in this one, so I think you know. For me the thing is like it's about climate change. What it means is like there's no way, but from my perspective you know that if you have a civilization, you push your planet. You know you can't stop it in some sense. You build civilizations well the only way around that is, if you have like subsistence culture of the indigenous yeah american culture right which would be much
it seems impossible, but it existed here two hundred years ago, which is a blink of an eye right right. I know it's amazing, only two hundred years since, like this, the ramp up, you know that the world population only crossed up the billion mark in like one thousand eight hundred and fifty Well, you know I mean it's not there for so few of us on the planet for most of the time they even we've been around. Forget the plan here. So you know I think, like they're, they're the discovery. If we were to get any evidence, you know- and I think the way it's going to happen is going to be more by accident than by like signaling. You know like the so so, but if we had any evidence of another technological ever get any evidence of just life right if we just find biosphere evidence that you know we can do that the distance right out, even if the star is you know thirty light years away. If we get. If we see you, as the light passes through the stars, atmosphere for those few moments, if we see oxygen in the atmosphere, you know we'll be able to detect that that's what we can do with telescopes who can tell like with you, can
the fingerprints of the different kinds of elements. If we see oxygen that atmosphere, you know an methane that pretty much says that there's a biosphere there that there's life 'cause, you wouldn't get oxygen would just like react away really fast. If it wasn't for life like in our, on earth. It wasn't for life, there'd, be no oxygen in the atmosphere. What are the possibilities of life that exists in a completely different environment than we expect I know that they found life at the bottom of the ocean. Is volcanic vents yeah at extreme heats boiling water? They didn't expect to see this yeah. This is fairly recent as well. That is that yeah. The idea that the because right this definition of the habitable zone, which based Any idea like, oh you gotta have a surface and it's gotta, be you know, but now, with the you know, not every, but like a bunch of the moons orbiting, Jupiter and Saturn the gas giants they have oceans under them like well. There's thoughts that you, robot might have something below the surface right yeah, because
Europa is a you know, it's it's! It's pretty big moon and we know it's covered in ice. You can see it's covered in it. You know, and we think that layer of ice is maybe, like I don't know ten kilometers thick and then below that there may be a hundred clomid ocean and because, as it moves around Jupiter is the gravity of Jupiter always squishing the inside. So this probably volcanic activity happening at the surface, so you have hydrothermal vents. You know, heat escaping out of an chemicals escape. Out of the surface under the ocean and that's how we think life forms on on earth. That's one of the arguments for how life formed a firm formed first in the hydrothermal vents, so yeah it's a new, that's another game, changer right, so that we should also be thinking not just about the classic habitable. Phone, but now we got to think about like life and can get civilizations an underwater civil. As a you know, an underwater you maybe have a really rich ecosystem, but you know what the problem we uh, an underwater underwater life or forming civilizations. You can't really do fire fireworks,
Pourtant for us for metallurgy know to build advanced technology. You kinda need combustion. So that's kind of the open question with that. Yeah we're not really concerned with animals, were concerned with things that thing can change their environment. Isn't that weird We are concerned with life, but we're only concerned with life. That's it least similar or comparable to us. Yeah microbes, don't like it! We don't don't we don't yeah, we don't them when I excited to Jupiter, for some might say it right, but we we. We are excited about the things they recently found on Mars right, I mean yeah every week, discovery right right, so you know the thing is from there. You know so I mean I I bought. I work in a lot of fields, but I would also consider myself an Astro biologist right, which the pretty kind of wild idea that you can do astrobiology, even though you only have one exam, which is the earth, but we've learned so much and now we can start asking ourselves out the possibility of life elsewhere. So finding even a micro like even of forgiving. You know.
But on Mars would be even evidence that there used to be amoebas on what is the evidence that they discovered on Mars. What they found was organic chemistry right, and so organic chemistry, I hated chemistry grown up, and I hated organic him was that just chemistry involving carbon. You know so you can have none or it is organic chemistry doesn't mean organisms, but it's the kind of history, that organisms love right, so finding evidence that there was like they drilled in the same kind of freaking robot to Mars drill through a rock and then ingest the rocket you know and then send the data back across space. You know pretty good for a bunch of hairless apes yeah what they found was evidence for fairly complex and you know, organic chemistry, which meant that way back when Mars and this we know for sure right, Mars had water on it. We know that for sure now Mars was a blue planet for this thing,
ours was hit by an asteroid or comet or something along those lines. Everything got hit by comets, We have chunks of Mars here right that thing in ninety, six or whatever, when they were like. Oh, we found life on Mars. You know they thought what they found was fossil bacteria in a chunk of her mars that they found in an Artica, so the planets have been swapping spit for like the entire history of the solar. So that's fossilized bacteria that sounds that been confirmed? No, no is it most. People now think that the Allan Hills meteorite. That probably you know it's inconclusive. It is not conclusive enough to be like yeah, we found life, it's like a tiny little squiggly worm, look and that's what it was yeah, but it was so small that was like waste more than any of the microscopic fossilized bacteria ever seen before. So people in general are like man, but by five, but that's what's, started right: that's when Clinton was like. Ok we're going to launch it tomorrow. 'cause, you know back in ninety The early 90s people are kind of done with Mars, and so that's what triggered the one space probe after another. The rovers
like so you know. The thing we found was a direct result of that effort, which was this organic chemistry which says that back in the day Mars had had a lot of this stuff lying around. Had a lot of these. You know these organic chemicals lying around which, if your life, that's what you're going to be using so it's like one more step. Like we've, been put into the the Lego blocks. I've heard the argument for life on Mars Wound piece at a time since the you know, since the first Rovers went there yeah, if we did discover just even plants on some. The planet, even just a planet with some sort of plantlike life. That would be. That would be a game. Changer so right. Now we don't know. If there's you know the only time in the entire history of the universe that, like this, easy thing where you got, we went from non life to life like is that common, or is that never ever ever happened? So that's the question. We want to We want to answer. I I you know, I mean like a you know. That argument was given before is, I think from the probable arguments. I'm saying it's like you know it's on, but it's almost overwhelming that yet
We happen somewhere can doesn't mean anything, but we need evidence right science, so we got a bill that evidence yeah and if we do find something, the the the one of the weirder saying This would be if we found something and there was a way to get there. Yeah you know if we find something in like yeah, we found something but we're pretty sure, there's some kind of life and it's three billion, light years away like well, that's cool yeah, We do yeah it's nice to know that we're not the only ones yeah, but you know it's interesting like how much would that change? You know, even if we found like evidence for this is a debate like if we found evidence of a technological civilization we saw like Alien mega like that store they forget was that nonsense and it wasn't really nonsense. It was. You know something floating around, so here's what they saw so that you know the way we discover planets is we look for when the planets passes in front of the star you get a little dip in the light it blocks out a little bit like a little eclipse
and so you know we've now that's how we should know that every star in the sky has planets, but there's like they found one that just made no sense like the light would dip that would stop dip and then with dip again three times it would stop tipping. Sometimes it was lower. Sometimes it was higher than you know for a year. So people right now- and so you know, Jason Wright and Others Jasons a friend of mine who they wrote a paper with their like. Hey, you know, at least, because this is what the future is going to. Look like. We can't we have to consider the possibility that these are artificial. Pictures that are like orbiting the star or you know it would have to be ungodly. Huge the huge alien megastructures, like that's the best word after, like the size of a country right, yeah yeah. These things would be huge right, but that's what people think like when people think about advanced alien civilizations, the idea of building large scale structures. Is you think that maybe the thing you do what you did you reach a certain point like come get a Dyson sphere, the idea you could collect all of the sun's energy and use it for yourself by building a giant sphere.
Around the sun with solar panels on the inside people, think like it was back to Carter chefs. The idea of this car chef scale back in the sixties was like look, there's gonna, be a natural progression of civilizations, the coach. First, you collect all the energy you can from your planet and then use that to do amazing things, and then you collect all the energy from your star and then you do that immediately to amazing without and then you know all the whole galaxy. So he you know cards chef thought there was a scaled up, but Sybill is a Naturally progress through the hopefully don't blow yourself up along the way. Well, I think that's the question I mean I've criticized the called the cartouche of scaling. The papers are recently did because, when it fails to take into account is the fact that, like you on your way up to the type one type one is when you harvest all the energy from your planet, which basically means somehow covering your planet and in you know, solar panels or something that neglects what we've learned since Carter chef wrote his paper and sixty four said. You know planets, don't like that. She had like planets. Are the plans going to feedback you try and build, you know massive on your planet, the planet has it's. Only a buyer's fears were pretty powerful. You got to take the blouse, you encounter, you get climate change, you get. You know that the planet being pushed off another,
whatever, so for the for alien mega structures, the follicle. Maybe this is like a piece of a of a Dyson sphere right. This is when you know that, so you know when he proposed his people went bonkers over this right, yeah saying he's like Look here's the fifteen different things could be an I'm going to have to at least consider the possibility that it's artificial, but for me, and some people got really angry I thought this is why they get angry because there's been a thing community over the years said he got a bad name right, Seti for a bunch of city. Sort of thought as being like only back at doodles. Do that and why? Why is that? Just because there was no results. I just think you know what it was if you notice it's, because a shitty tv you I mean I really in some ways right, it's all its prosthetic foreheads right. It's the whole we've had so much kind of crappy. You know Spec relation about aliens are trying to do anything. Scientific always had this whiff of sort of being a little you know, and then there's the UFO stuff. You know which is completely separate. It's nothing to do with. It said he
never really achieved any results right there was that one big blip that was highly popula wow signal yeah, but here's the thing Let's say we never really did said he that much I mean like people. Have this idea like wow we've got. Schools all over the world in their look at you know, so the government never funded a study study a bit anything major right. So people, you know all that said he has done is like. Basically, you know Some dudes on a telescope get a little extra time. Like hey man. Look, let's go look at a star, you know so um Jill Tarter, who is one of the founders one of the greats of Seti. She compares it's like you know. We got a notion that we need to look at and we have so far the thimble right and she, the Jodie, Foster care she's, the Jodie Foster Character, yeah contact, yeah, yeah, so she's laying on its a good point like we haven't, really looked yet so the idea that you know Stars are silent or anything. It's like man come on. We haven't even begun to do a comprehensive, sir, said. He makes me sad. Why? Because I feel like they're wasting their time and their so there was a documentary I saw once about so
biologist, who was convinced that the giant sloth was still alive and that there was examples them in South America and this poor bastard had spent. More than a decade. Looking for this giant sloth in South america- and there there's this moment where he, chasing down this supposed, one pile in the weird looking for they were handed out at some sites that we he and he had this look in his eyes were like it was like holy shit. What, if I waste my fucking life and my active I'm a career yeah chasing down something that's not even real yeah, that's kind of how I've always felt about setting yeah, but that's not the way. The people I mean everybody's involved in it Jana to study. You know I mean get all about respect. The people are doing. It's not yeah, but you know, most of them are like look. This is just a multi generational. Thank you and, if, even if I don't find it, I'm laying the foundations, like you know, cathedrals right. It's like how many generations the take to build a cathedral in medieval Europe right sure, so,
the first guy who laid the stone was like I'm not going to see. This may be my great grandkids most of them are like you know there. You know they know This is going to you know. This is a huge. It's like the most important question in humanity. Are we alone and they're willing to accept that? Like you know, it's gonna do scientifically you're gonna have to do it, brick by friggin break, you know, and so you just have to accept that and you know go on so but like I said, I think we we were. You know this is a new era now. So the idea of like looking for signals, which assumes that somebody put now signals right. That's that's a huge assumption right there, but you with now that we know that there's always planets and were staring at all these planets. It's kind of we need to be thinking differently about. You know. We need to be prepared for like what happens when we see something we don't understand. What's also we don't even use radio anymore right. Right, cable radio is dying, light slowly but surely local radio is. I mean it's it's kind of a thing of the past yeah The only thing that's really were beaming out how large scale is military radars? No, that's the main thing
so there would be some kind of signal would necessarily have to be radar or or radio just have to be something that we could detect form of anomaly. That seemed to be artificial right. So here's here's some of the suggestions that people are talking about so Obvi Lobe at Harvard talks about the idea. Maybe you need and you're going to need the sensitivity for this you're going to see like rocket engines going back and forth between you know, but you have a plan having a multi planet civilization on some and you're going to see. Flares is rockets to celebrate and accelerate back and forth people talked about seeing city lights. You know the telescopes are getting so we're building these giant telescopes are like thirty meters and maybe put So one day to see city line, you could see city lights, you are going to see the planet come around like this is all like. You know we're not we're not there yet but people twenty years thirty years, thirty years forty years ago, this is a long game and you got to be playing the long game at some point. We're gonna need to build stuff in space. That's even law
chargers. We can collect more light and won't be issue also be that if we do see the city lights were seeing city lights from millions of years ago. Well, it depends like you tend. You know a planet that cinestar ten light years ago, that's ten years ago, so it's not like you know. These things could still be around. Here is a really interesting idea like You know, one of the things that I'm talking about in my book is like how long does any civilization? Last right, that's the real question all of this is rest super relevant for us now, because the question is what is the average lifetime of a civilization, so you might be able to see artifact, from civilizations that are gone like imagine, of civilization covered one of its moons in a solar panels right. The reflected light is going to show a spectral signature of the panel you know so it's like you, don't even have to necessarily be alive now that we still might be able to see stuff from there. You know evidence of like artificial structures or something that's not natural around them. So you know that's the thing man. It's like we're, really we're just we're about to take this step.
Instead in Astro Biology, where were you know, we're already running models of Zobio spheres were asking like what kind of chemistry can you have? If you don't like, if you have photosynthesis in We are on a planet around a star, that's smaller than ours. That starts going to be mostly red, as opposed to yellow, like are so the light. That's coming off. It's going to be different. Can you have photosynthesis in that case, and people like yeah? You probably could and would look like so we're already doing the work to be ready for Xo Biosphere's, so Exo civilizations. We kind of need to be prepared for that too. Looking for you know what could be the traces. What might we see from a distance from an exo civilization? They don't have to be signaling us. You know they're. Just there we're going to catch some aspect of their being around I mean if we did see rocket. If we did see some sort of a signature from rockets going back and forth, or the we would have to assume that this is a similarly aged civilization to hours, whereas, if saw something that was a thousand one hundred thousand years advanced. We probably would
see that anymore right see some sort of a manipulation of time and space right if that's possible it right boss, if it's possible yeah yeah, so that I mean, of course, that is one of the problems is that when you start You start pushing. It is like saying, like you know, what is the? What is that what we can be like in a million years for I always you know- I mean it's so long, so I think he's start with what you know and the cool thing about the planet. Part, though, is that unless they become like energy being miss, you know they're going to have an effect on their planet, so looking at their planets. To look for you know for spectral indications that's by even after they die. There might even be things. So that's I think, a you know a good way to go yeah, I'm yeah, I'm so curious as to what we're going to be able to do in a thousand years and ten thousand years and a hundred thousand years if does tail around and we figure out how to not melt the earth right. Boil the oceans or whatever the following wrong were doing yeah right, but there's you know a bunch of science fiction films
speculated what what's going to be possible in the future. In one of 'em was. Was that recent one with his name all right, all right? What's his name, the Fox name, Matthew Mcconaughey with that guy, the one where they go through the wormholes right now? How much do those movies push you off, but they don't? I don't know I do not mean, but they get subs it's fiction. So you know I mean I do not need my science fiction to be corrected correct, I mean if they want to make it so I love the expanse. The expanse is my favorite show ever I will talk about it. What is the expense? The expanse? I don't even know it. Thank you help me it's a series of books. First of all, that, I think, are the best science fiction books in the last fifteen years, and then they made him into it, made into a show on Sci FI and then at three years of it, and you know at first people like us, it's kind of hard to follow 'cause. You know it's a lot of stories coming together and then you know at this year it got one hundred percent ratings or uh
rotten tomatoes, rotten tomatoes hundred ninety five percent, like if people it you know, and so Jeff Bezos, just so just Oh because people you Jeff Show but yeah Richmond tell you why this show is amazing right, so um takes place, two hundred years from now, and we are truly a multi plant species like Mars. Now has you know billion people on it and it's become it's own political power right, it's it's separated from the earth and then the asteroid belt has also people are colonizing, and you know blood living on the asteroid belt to you know mine resources, but the Beltre's as they call them, are like they're, like second class citizens bay. Sickly, like super poor and there you know they got the the on their next by either earth or Mars, and so there's this whole. Planetary kind of political going on, which is just great. You know, and there? Should you enter into this? They discover like that, what they call the proto molecule like you know it was. This is basically this alien molecule. That was really a
device that some aliens through our way billions of years ago. That was, you know how much my supposed to give away, and I don't want it You know that's why it's ok, no one's going to remember good good, so that complicated, so that that becomes kind of a weapon in this political intrigue. So it's just a great source kind of people. Call it like the game of thrones in space, but I'll tell you what I love about. It is that this is what it's going to look like like they get the science on this show. So as much as you can right. So you know in space if your rocket motors RON there's gravity, because you know the rocket motors push up toward you and tell you all you got grab, you can walk around when you turn the rocket orders off. You float around right on spinning things, anything so you know in the in in this universe- are in this that the fictional universe, they've taken the big asteroids and they followed him out and spun him up so people live on the inside Hide you know, and so one point like that that one of the characters that the private eye they got, this great sort of fill more thing going on. He pours a drink. You know some whiskey and the whiskey. Does this spirals in
so they got the coriolis effect. Like I peed my pants, I was like. Oh my god. They got the Coriolis effect right, so it's like this is really what it's going to look like. You know I mean this is if you want to imagine two hundred years from now, which I think is completely feasible, that we have millions of people living in space. They make any advances so uh, no, no, no people are assholes to each other and that's what makes it yeah it's only two hundred years. That's a lot to ask for well think about how different we are from people that live. Fifty years ago I mean we that different things were quite a bit different in what way. What do you think like? Well, we have this ability to communicate now that we never did before, where everybody has an ability to say their piece about how you feel about how things are going yeah. No that's interesting right and that has changed a lot of things in a lot of ways, but I mean it changed who we are
I mean I think, evolution. I think it's chipping away yeah, but I would be good to go. I'm you know, because one of the things my thing so it was initially about this fictional world too, is that, like climate, you know the earth is dealing with clay. Art has like thirty billion people on it, and you know, New York is halfway under water, and so that's part of the story to is that, So we're trying to navigate our way through now becoming a multiplanet species. So you know That is a version of at least two hundred years, where you can extrapolate the technologies in ask yourself because that's real, I mean, I think, that's really gonna have if we make it to climate change, that's the that's the price. At the end of the you know of the of the story. We make it through climate change. You know what the stuff that Elon, Musk and Jeff Bezos are doing. Man, that's real like this but your number one concern is climate change. Michael I'm, a single voter, yeah climate change, 'cause! It's like it is an existential dilemma. You know, and because of all the writing I did for NPR in New York Times. I have dealt with a lot of climate change denial as men and it drives me what is their big?
because I recently had a discussion with someone on the podcast. It didn't believe in climate change and it was. It was a weird things. 'cause I kept pulling up all the different. Scientific consensus studies all the different studies that show that we were having an impact. It's an undeniable impact undeniable under thirty years of science. I I know I saw that and she was like you know. Well that day, I don't think that she's really for thinking can about the in her case it was, I don't think she really thinks about it. I think not just as this stance that she believes that that group that she's a part of that's what is subscribes too. So there's an ideological aspect of it where you you of have predetermined pattern that you're supposed to follow when you're on one side, you have to be pro life, you have to be processed and marketed. Stuff is above stuff yeah and that's, I think it's a giant problem with our culture that there are two groups of people that you can't like to truly be
independent thinker, you, like one of these weirdos, it's often the friend Jeff, in order to be independent of either part right right and the thing about science is the whole point of science is. Writing depend is to be and to have a you know that the what science is science is a way of having public knowledge. You know, I mean, like everybody, has their opinions whatever, but science is about the the stuff. You'll, be like oh yeah for sure yeah. It's this whole process that we've evolved over four hundred years and with Clinton. I'm, and sometimes you know it's just you know you want to be like what what do you say? Men like what you read a book because all say stuff like is my favorite one? Okay, changing cling to changing man, which is true so? If somebody comes to me 'cause, you know what I want most for people. I consider myself an evangelist of science. I love science, and so, if people come to me and say, hey man isn't always changing Oh great question. You know we actually know the answer to that. Yet it's changing, but it changes What's the time scale you know, so it change is often on million year timescales, but like from the last ten
years since the last ice age, which was ten thousand years ago, which is amazing like there used to be a mile vice above our heads, you know ten thousand years ago has been remarkably stable, has been little blips in it, but no major changes right so like, and I can show them the graph of this and everything so if they're interested You know I mean if there so, if they're asking the question 'cause, they want to know, I'm all I'm down to talk until the cows come home, but that's not what was typical, deniers organizer, like you, changing all the time, but I'm not interested in the answer, but isn't it it's not only they're not interested in the answer, they're just try, and when it's not real conversation, because it's a really complex thing. If you dig an ice core and you tap, to fifty thousand and eighty thousand one hundred thousand years. You see all these bizarre shifts of the climate right. That could be indicative of super. Volcanoes and asteroidal impacts and solar flares a lot of shit over the course of a million years. But too
Hang all your idea. Is on the parties, ideology and deny all this really interesting stuff and all these variables. That's what that's what pisses me off? It's like you know what I try to tell people like climate science is like awesome. Like it's science, it's got these amazing stories to tell about you know: yeah the earth earth over the past four point: five billion years the earth has gone through the most profound changes and we've learned about. Aren't you but no right there, the the the basically have this thing where, like you know, I'm I'm part of this group and therefore have to have this been, and I'm like dude, it's science, science doesn't care who you voted for you know I mean like the radiative properties of a co2 molecule doesn't care whether wearing a blue tie or a red tie, and the fact that people can't make that distinction and here's a real problem, We go down this slippery road of denying saying, like ok, that kind of I hate men they're, all a hoax. Well, you know America,
prosperity and our safety has been built on science over the last two hundred years. You know you start to uh, the whole thing. You can't just like call one group of young scientists holsters, you know, and so they're only doing from and not have it slowly. In fact, everything else to the point where, like you, know China, I'll be happy to eat our lunch. You know when it comes scientifically chinese pumping me huge amounts of money into science. We're not doing this So, like you know, we're limiting and here's the other thing that really bums me out sciences, uh, it's not a lunch buffet. You know I mean you can't be like Oh man can I have some of those antibiotics. I love antibiotics and oh yeah, the cell phones, great I'll, use that and I really want to fly in a plane, but climate change is bullshit No, I mean, like you know either you accept that you live in. A scientific society doesn't mean, like your slavish Lee, adhere to anything. You know comes out in a journal late yesterday, but you know either you adhere to. The idea of this method has produced miracles for us, or you know, give me this. Phone back right. Well, the scientific method is what has established the actual real facts of how things interact
each other. That's allowed us create technology right. I think they they. They split. That distinction right. They focus on the technology and commerce right, which is more important right, their eyes than the the the the consequences of the environment. Alright, what's going to happen to the environment they're the is the big hope is that we're going to figure it out, and I'm hopeful of that too, is that we're going to figure out some way to extract carbon from the atmosphere with devices some enormous, like there was some. I don't know if it was a working prototype it's just a concept, but there was an enormous building that was really an air filter starting to look at carpet capture again with places like Hong Kong and right places where they have Terra Beijing. They have terrible terrible pollution and, more importantly, particulates in the atmosphere It's not just like a carbon thing. It's like they have in their area that they're breathing yeah awful yeah. It's you know. I went to Mexico City a couple years back. I've been there twice.
I went there for a UFC and we're more flying, and I took photos- and I put him on my instagram, see if find those they're. And shocking unbelievable. What kind of creepy animal is the human or the human is capable of burning smoke into the very air that we need to take into our lungs to keep our body a lot. All you see it's so bad people have never been to Mexico City like it's a stunner dude, my fucking head was killing me after two days there yeah that's what happen with the Beijing when they had the Olympics right they had to like you know they had to stop all industrial activity for like two months this is LA used to look like this right, yeah for the Clean AIR Act, LA would have that's. When I wrote I wrote Mexico's LA on steroids, Mexico City's only on steroids, measles, so dark. You know the this whole question of what
do like this brings us back to the alien's right. What's so, my my my point is: is that you know we're not the first time this has happened much if you build a civilization. Anybody who builds a civilization like we've done is going to trigger climate change right. It's like it's kind of on of the We double right. So, let's go back to the denier thing and one thing to trying to because flipped the script right. Could you talk to climb into nihilists and the scene for can set of things that, like you know, man dude we've been here before with the F questions answered, but I'm trying to like flip it to show that, like the whole question of you have to be changing climate to everybody focus on, did we did we not you know, and you know from when you take the ten thousand light your view them you realize like what did you expect like we built a world girdling civilization that uses a quarter almost of all the energy, the pilots for your use right, so you know every every day the bios for your has, like you know, two hundred terror watch of energy that is producing insurers. We use about a quarter of that like how did you expect or what
Is it going to be an impact right, so this changes the whole way we look at. We don't need to argue about. Like did we didn't we? Of course we did. This is what happens when you reach this level and the other thing that you know in the book that I'm trying to argue to also- and it pushes back against the deniers, like what Clinton Ia Human Haters, no they're. All like you know like we did this amazing thing. We change the atmosphere of an entire planet right. Change shows on one level how freaking awesome we are. You know how far we've gotten Anas You look at the you know from the perspective of species. Doing this again and again across the universe. This shows that we've reached a level right. We have leveled up right away, a lot of video games right and so the whole thing when you level up and you get the sniper rifle we've leveled up. And so now the question is: are we smart enough? You know to see what we've done and make the right choices, because that's the universe is going to be there's going to be species that trigger climate change is going to happen all the time, and I'm going to be like. Oh man. We need to do something right and they'll make the actions will be able to work it out, get it together and uh,
once you are going to end up in the cosmic waste pile, so we're like cosmic teenagers and just like when you're a teenager and your you start to drive right either you figure it out. You know you're drinking and partying and drive the car off a cliff. We figure out how to handle your responsibility, and that's us now. You know yeah. I agree with you and I feel like there's a fundamenta fundamental problem with the way people approach ideas and I think it goes back to what we're about earlier about right versus left or republican versus Democrat they're, not thinking the quinces of arguing for against the possibility that climate change is a human cost thing, they're, not thinking of the consequences. They just want to win right right, They want their side to be right and that you know what what bums me out is they don't understand the the consequences of that for the both the american enterprise and the human enterprise I mean because you know, if you keep calling one branch of science, a hoax, then what's to say,
the other branches like well. You know they just your debt you're rolling down this. You know slippery slope were like the other countries. You know like some, most of the of the prizes. Americans have one where people from other countries they came. Here to do their science, because we had the best scientific enterprise. The next generational just go somewhere else to go to China. You know so there's that part of it and the other part is like dude. It's just some plants, it doesn't care about. You were political views and you know it's not fair. To use the cell phone and take the antibiotics and then turn around and like and then suddenly treat this thing as if it was another thing in your bucket of you know, ideologies I think also people think If you somehow another compromise industries, ability to work that you're going to kill jobs and you're going to and the economy and that's more important yeah, but I think it's, the exact opposite Right and people really saw it right. I mean you know again: Like I'm saying climate
it shows how powerful people become and also shows how powerful are our enterprise right. We did this by. You know building businesses by building enterprise by and we built this, world curling machine of civilization, and you know the planet actually noticed. Why do you like that term world? because that's it gives me the Obertal wrapping around the earth. Think it's because it's from like Shakespeare like from Caesar or something I thought was good, but it's the idea like you know, in on the foundation, Trilogy Isaac as one off you know, classic science fiction thing that there's the city of the planet, transport, which is the center of the the empire, the Galactic Empire, and it's a you know it's basically the whole plan. It's been covered in city, yellow, like the other you got to go down like five hundred levels. Before you get to the surface
an idea. You know I mean what I like about. It is the idea that, like you know, we've done something we're kind of covered the planet in our our fact. You know cover covered the planet in our enterprise, so this is your business. Is that like there's a place, I can stand in Rochester? I did this for NPR and there's the ear canal. I can stand right on the edge of the ear canal. Then there's a train tracks. You know the tracks was laid. Those tracks were laid back in the other regional line. Back in the eighteenth, you know whatever seventies, then there's a highway and then there's the airport right over there, four different infrastructures. You know which everyone took huge amounts of money to build if we don't even use anymore right. So the idea of building a an infrastructure that will that will not be car. Polluting will not trigger climate change like did. This is what we do you know, so the idea that there's going to be more how did that come out of this? Then it could ever come out of fossil fuels. You know it's not a big deal for human beings, 'cause! That's what we do to switch
infrastructures and there will be a lot of wealth generated out by you know. Just like there was. You know when we switched to the train where's the argument coming that we, because there are people that just adopt the the party line, the party line, that Humid climates, always change and human beings barely affected, and it's not something to concentrate on. Where is that? Coming from again, I think it's you know the gradual political polo polarization of everything you know 'cause you look at in the we're now at the thirty anniversary of Jim Hanson, who is famous climate scientist, giving his testimony in front of Congress in nineteen eighty eight hot sweltering summer day we said climate change is already happening you know, and that made news everywhere. That was the first like public awakening that this was happening and if you look at the Bush administration. They were like oh yeah, we're ready to do something about this sure we can do it. You know an then it just grab
the overtime is the whole political polarization thing happened. You can actually see the the the very purposeful denial right. They took a page out of the cigarette companies outside for years right cigarettes like other server companies right now. It's not a problem, so they were purposely. No people had money invested right, you know, like didn't this a documentary that goes into that. What is the name of that merchants of out merchants of doubt, that's a great book man, that's a really good book. Yeah and the documentary is really good yeah it was a purposeful. You know when it's there, it's it's also confusing is like. Why are they doing that like who's paying them to do that? Obviously the cigarette companies would be paying the same people right to put doubt into the I idea that cigarettes are addictive or cigarettes cause cancer, and this is what had been done in the ask now the same people are involved in doing it with climate change right. But why well, you know at one time I wrote a piece for the NPR. There was kind of positive about like yeah, we can switch infrastructures like I'm saying, and some guy wrote me back
very angry, and he said you know the proven reserves. You know the stuff, the oil that's in the ground has a wealth has a valid man. Evaluate. You know: that's in there in the oil companies banks, you know in their bank accounts of like one point: five trillion dollars and I said dude. You know people have gone to war for a lot less than one point: five trillion dollars right. So you know if we were to really be like hey man, we can't burn that. You know you're going to leave Add in the ground. That's likely. Their bank account unlike zero, pretty fast. So what I so it's those industries, I think that's part of it and then it gets you get linked to other things, and then it becomes this sort of like mass, you know, becomes the They use the political polarization to sort of you sort of make this happen. It doesn't, other countries are doing this right. That's the right thing! You know other countries there's always a little bit of climate denial going on, but were like the only country. That's guys, you can see 'cause we're the only ones who are not part of the Paris accord. Well, it's one of the weirder things Not this right left things. The left is always supporting the environment. The left is all about the environment.
It is about clean air and clean water, and how did that happen? I don't know Yes, I do understand that either the whole thing is very strange. Well I got you know I mean I have issues with environmentalists too, because I think everyone here shows. I was watching that you know the whole idea of ECHO Bros right. You get echo Brode by people, and I have a piece in the New York Times today and Op Ed. Basically saying like look man, the plan is going to be fine. Like you know, long term, there's nothing. We can throw out the biosphere that is going to kill it when it's not about saving the planet. The earth is not a fuzzy little bunny. You know the planet powerful and it's really about saving us. Let's be honest about. What's going on, it's going to be all kinds of ethical choices that go on that you know the polar bears made, able to come along with us on the ride here. You know we need a healthy biosphere with. You know a lot of biodiversity, but you know we're part. If it and we're going to have an impact, there's no such thing as no impact, and you already I'm getting equal.
Did you know you just you know you don't care about life yeah? What about you? I just like a come on it. It's put thing. I said we need to be wise and compassionate. You know, but they're, like most people have convenient opinions. I mean this is this is one of the things you get involved with when you start talking with people about really important issues? I mean it's like we were talking about earlier. They want to be right and want to be on the side, that's righteous and with virtue and ethics right, and they find anything that you disagree, so that they disagree with that you're saying they don't ask you questions, they don't go how do you think the implications are like? How do you? How do we minimize the effects of the negative consequences of? Are they just really want to say you are insensitive yeah, you are an you. Are the problem yeah. You know my way around that that's what the whole book is about is to like when you've got a polarization right. You know where you know you're either this or that the other thing that this is like a mathematical idea is to go or fog. You know when you do when you
you know you go because you know it's a line, basically right user on this side or that side go ninety degrees to it. Now whole new space, now you're up and down. Instead of left and right, exactly and now, like the questions so you see this in like revolutions in science right. So you look at Einstein and what happened when Einstein came up with relativity every at the time was like you know. They were all concerned with called the Luminiferous aether that light needed lights away Van everybody thought it needed something to propagate through right. The way our waterways go through. Water. Sound wave goes through air, so the whole thing was about this ether. The luminous air Easter is this exist, does not exist. Items like you know, I'm not really interested in problem. I'm not going do it you just like change the whole thing you said. Look, here's two ideas. They have nothing to do with the Lumina servers ether and, like all the old questions, all the old battles can just fell away. They didn't even make sense anymore. So that's what I'm trying to do in the book and say look when you look at climate change as a Terry Transition, a predictable planetary transition. The whole idea of
environmentalism versus business interests and write the Publicans versus Democrats. It just doesn't it's not even relevant anymore? What matters is that this is going to happen. We should have expected it to happen, and now the question is: do we become a cosmic winner or cosmic loser and we have to think about the biosphere differently. We have to think about our place in the biosphere differently and the old arguments. So that's why you know sometimes with climate change there's I'll, throw this stuff at them and still kind of fun to watch him be like 'cause you're, expecting you to say, like a bc and they've got def in response, and I throw this stuff at him and they're just like. Don't do it just to fight with climate in, but I think it's true, but well, who was it? That was on the podcast? It was talking about climate stabilization techniques and that this is probably the future. Was it boy on um anyway,
What people are really worried about when you talk to people that understand the history of the human race in the history of the earth's climate cooling, I think that climate cooling is far more terrifying than climate warming 'cause. If we go into a giant ice age again, the way more people are going die, die, terrible loss of resources and it could be devastating to the human race. That is is that, that's something you agree with yeah. No, I don't think so. I mean it's it's true, a nine that we here's an interesting, interesting, we're kinda overdue for an ice age yeah. That was the thing in the seventies. They were saying that we're on the verge of, and I said yeah I mean that you know that it was just a couple of guys. I mean that whole three x that that's often something the Clinton ours will throw out. U seventies ever it was like it was like one or two guys who said that and then I got picked up on the news, but the climbing community at that time was not like all my god. It's cooling but here's, the interesting thing for me and it fits into this whole idea- is that like we're holding off an ice age like there
he never be if human humanity is successful and we navigate the anthropocene. You know that term. The anthropocene that we've now entered we've now entered human dominated era. We've been for the last ten thousand years. The geological epic has been what they called the Holocene. That's all human civilization happened in the seen, you know it's pretty warm. It's pretty wet more. Everything everything's, not locked up in ice, it's, glacial period and if we weren't around yet another one thousand and three thousand five thousand years would be another ice age, but the anthropocene that were triggering could hold off ice age is forever right as long as we're around there won't be another ice age, 'cause we've already added enough warmth of the planet that it overcomes the effects that trigger an ice age so like what are the ethical responsibilities of that That's. Why trying tell the you know the environmentalists. Like you know, you got this image like we got to save the earth but they're thinking of like the whole scene, and it's like well, you know the the planet. You, even with us, even if we successfully keep biodiversity rich and it's not going to be earth we started with, you know: 'cause we're here so
what about the species that never form because we held off the ice age. You know I mean forever like what about the ethical responsibility, though oh, look at albums, for that is a long equation, though, isn't it in what way to try to contemplate what species would have existed. If we allow the earth to cool and r possibility for allowing the earth to cool so that the potential for new species to advance its like fuckit most pieces. Let's keep keep this place warm, so we can stay alive. Well, I'm saying the only reason I'm raising it. I'm not! You know I'm raising that because we know when we talk about climate change, what you get sometimes, when the environmental movement is this sort of like the Polar Bear, the polar Bear is like what I'm trying to say. Look, I love polar bears, kinda funny the polar bears always think folder. Will rip your head off and drink your blood and ruthless, the most beautiful. Not only that, then one of the rare bears that doesn't need anything but meat yeah right right. So it's funny that were like oh polar bears like from Heaven is a biologist and he said like when you get polar bear babies like
another woman said they like the like the alien from the chest, chestburster scene. He said they would literally like right out of the womb, we're looking to kill and eat your like, oh you're, so well made it back like that is a fucking. Obviously, people have tamed them and fed them to the point where they don't never worried about your head off yeah, but that's a fucking, predatory, enormous animal. So I'm ready and the point to say like look, the thing we're going through now is a it's. An epic making planetary transition were part of it and whether or not we're still part, that's the question whether or not we're still part of it One thousand years from now you know the big issue. So you know there are ethical issues about the polar bear right, but there are also Ical issue they're, you know they're it. We can't just return the earth to some pristine state, we're here to seven billion of us. You know so you know you have to read
I have to understand, like there's this deeper ethical question about what is an earth? Look like that's, been changed by us. That's healthy, but uh still has us on it. It may not have polar bears. You know it may have rich phytoplankton. You know- and it may be be be a very species diverse, but some of the species may not come with us so like we can't this sort of like things like the pristine earth is no more pristine earth. We, you know we the change in the years since we were here. So it's like how do we have a healthy of rich, healthy bios here with us and our civilization still in it, and the thing think about things that have gone extinct in the past and more than ninety percent of everything that's ever existed is extinct problem we didn't know then right we didn't have a you know. A checklist right, like oh spotted owl check, got it tree frogs got it now we do and when one goes away, we kind of freak out yeah and that's you know I mean we have to have compassion for life 'cause, we're part of
like without the compassion. You know we end up with as Gavin Schmidt, a friend of mine calls economic. We have ecological hooliganism right. We just do crazy words, dumping shouldn't rivers like yeah. You don't have to do that man, but you know one in my Talks on this I'll show like the Polar Bear, the lonely polar bear on the island, and you know I was really you out about this and then show like a velociraptor right. You know who's crying for the loss. Right species come and go so we have to. Ghosh. These huge transitions, I'm not saying be like don't care about those species, but you gotta have the bigger picture with us in it. Here's the problem with that with the the environmental movements. You know what, though, sometimes awake at, frames, not just the environment in which the way we talk about climate change, we think of ourselves as being a plague right, human beings. We suck right, that's the basics. That's the only story! You have two stories: it's not happening or we suck, and my whole thing is like that is not only that story wrong. It's unhelpful! You know we are what the biosphere is doing now
you know millions of years ago it was grasslands. Planes were in new innovation and they change the planet. You have a lot of grass. You know that, but I was here vault grasslands. If they swept across the planet, they changed how the planet were and then the earth moved on with it went on to the new experiment. We are what the exactly that we are. The dinosaurs or the grasslands or the blue green algae that created the the oxygen atmosphere and, like you know, we're not we're. We get there's: no difference between a city in a forest on some bottle biospheric level. We don't suck is whether we're smart enough to still be part of what the what the using us to trigger you know. I mean yeah what thoughts on the the reintroduction. Extinct animals through genetic cloning oh, you know I watch Jurassic Park there talking about doing it like with woolly mammoth yeah. This is, so possibility so yeah. I know the close sister of the woolly mammoth still alive right. I know I'd be down for CW
it might make them in the Science Museum in Rochester. There's a woolly mammoth that they found. You know something like this giant hairy asked elephant man. It was walking around right. In my you know, I think depending on what you do with it. You know trying to reintroduce it into the biosphere could be a little dangerous. I mean the thing. Look climate change is this something like say: climate change is not our fault and what I mean by that is we, you know we found fossil fuels and they were awesome, you know, and they were just a continuation of what we'd always done. You know, and so we inadvertently climate change was a mistake. You know, Now, if we don't do something about it, it's our fault right, but you know, and so you want to be really careful about unintended consequences. Yeah this is my same thing with the GEO Engineering people talk like. Oh, we should put a particule it's in the atmosphere to make it more reflective. Like man dude, we triggered the whole. We triggered climate change because you know we didn't know what we were doing. We didn't know what the consequences we put those particles up there. How do we get
Yes. Well, I'm out on the net: well, no, no they'll! Let you down gotta, keep put them in that's the problem. You gotta keep putting a man. So what happens? If, like one nation, this. I don't want to do it anymore. You know, and or the whole thing falls apart now suddenly get massive changes, and so like anything like that like why? Don't we just work on not using fossil fuels? I mean, like I, take the hardest solution. That's got the most uncertainty as opposed to the simpler solution, which just means building a different infrastructure, yeah and well specially in California I mean this is one of the weirder places ever to not see solar power when it never it never rains should be everywhere everywhere. Most things should be run on solar power. Why not man you've gotten so listen so efficient now it is also very difficult to get it up and running. Like I had a friend of mine who had his done for four or five months before he got approved because he said they they make it difficult for you.
Yeah, which is crazy. Yeah, yes, good to be on solar power, not be on the grid yeah. So you know I mean these are all the kinds of things that we're gonna have to work out. I'm hopeful people are like. Are you hopeful were not helpful because you know I I ran these. I do these models This is a research we did. Was we modeled planets and civilizations like alien civilizations, you know developed a simple mathematical model about. You know how civilization will use that. Its resources to make more babies, alien babies and then how by using those resources, you feedback on the planet right, and so what we wanted to do was wanted to model possible outcomes like what is the generic outcome. You know I've got one hundred thousand civilizations all being born in different places. What's the you know in general, what happens and what we found is like basically, four different possibilities. One was good news like in these models. There was like population shoots up the planets temperature shoots up, but they come to a nice. Steady state, like you know the population stable everything is good, so there in those models, was hope.
We also saw die off for, like the population skyrockets the planet, the over shoot, the carrying capacity of the planet, and then you get something like seventy percent of the population dying off to like more. You know. Seven out of every ten people, you know is gone so you know, but then you come to a steady state. So Maybe if you can survive the disaster, you can you're still there, but we also probably survive the disasters. How much of the information gets restored because you think about if you kill seven out of ten people, how many of those seven people are the ones who know how to make cell phones exactly it's a dark it right. That's what happens in the dark age. Remember the first time I went to Europe and I saw those roman aqueducts man like five stories tall carrying water. You know by the nine hundred and nobody knew how they got built. Few of those dips in human civilization right. So it's not, clear, especially with society, is complex. Is ours right if, like the food, doesn't arrive in my grocery store? What do I do?
right, I garden, but you know I'm not not enough, not enough right and keep your life so for complex civilization like ours. Even if you don't go extinct, you may not be able to have this kind of civilization, but we did find collapse. We did find complete like extinction curves as well, where you know the operational way and then boom drop like a stone, and it would even we even found those we built into the models possibility for the solution to switch from a high impact resource to a low impact resources like fossil to solar. Sometimes 'cause, you know planets have minds of their own. You know, there's an internal dynamics, the planet. So you push him far enough. Going to roll off, so we'd have ones where the popular way up, they made the switch and then population start to come down the plan. It start to cool down. Do you factor random, geologic cool events, random, solar events, random searches. This was really all about just planet civilization and its feedback. On the you could build models like that. That would be one major issues with any advanced civilizations. It's a matter of time,
before something happens. Right as we said, we oh, that Mars has been hit before we go. Earth spin hit the moon's been head. Everything I mean the moon is one of our best examples. We just look at it. I see craters everywhere, because it doesn't have an environment or an atmosphere of the moon was built by a huge impact between earth and more on Mars, like body you know at the beginning of the planet's history, so yeah those happen all the time. I think if you get advantage, so like we're on the lip of being a multi species right and one If you do that, which means you become a space faring race, then I think, like certainly the asteroid stuff, you can take care of, But we've already done. We've identified like a huge fraction of all the earth crossing asteroids like we're, not really sure what to do. Automatic find one coming at us, but we see some coming at us all the time when they just recognize them a few hours before their near right right, but as it happened a couple weeks ago right and you know, luckily it always passes you can I mean like subways yeah, so
didn't really like. You know we're young enough now that if we discovered one heading right towards us, we could just you know, put your legs between your and your head between your legs and kiss your butt goodbye, but in time right, two hundred years from now we will have done a much better job of mapping out all the major role actually yeah. I think so I mean I'm really doesn't you know I mean if we have that kind of planetary, interplanetary we're going to be just because you want to run into more you to be mine, think, is promising in terms of the ability to prevent impacts. There's a couple of things I think the best when you catch it early enough, there's a gravity tug. We just literally park a spaceship next to it and slowly have the space ship. You know, move it because the only she was alter the trajectory a little bit. You know you really have a long nap on it. Yeah and it'll. Do you know shouldn't spaces to so fast that a little tap will make it miss. So the gravity tuck. You don't have to try and do the pop was. It was the movie apocalypse one with from the 90s with the
space miners, oh Armageddon, yeah, thank you and then there was a deep impact. In fact was the smart one. Yeah Armageddon was the trip each others off right, because they're both came out at the same time and right now I think deep impact came out first, but it was developed. Second, it being the one that, like you know, they both come out at the same time and your move, doesn't get any attention and the other one becomes like a massive hit yeah. Well, so so like you know there- they drilled holes and stuff, and you try and blow him up, but then the problem there is, you now have a bunch of rocks and some of those rocks are big enough. So I think the gravity tug is kind of probably the best idea because of mining asteroids. Probably you know those little ones may be the easiest to mine. So what Are you worried about more than anything in terms of climate change like you worried about the? king of the ocean levels, are you worried about the heating of the actual planet, the temperature being unsustainable for human life? Like what are you worried about them?
the one thing I worry about the most likely talking before you know, technological societies. Are these like overlaid networks, you know you got the transportation network, you got the energycap network, you got social networks and those are complex, and so I do little what's called network theory and what you find with network there is that you, you know you may have an individual network, that's pretty robust, meaning like I can cut some of the the connections like you got your social network. I could take twenty percent of the people of your social network in the social like will still function. You know I like to fill most people still talk to each other anything, but once start. Layering am so. The social network is now connected to the telecommunications network, which is connected to the energycap network, blah blah. Then you can ripple Small change ripple through the whole thing blows it apart. It doesn't function anymore anymore. What I don't need like apocalypse, is to have the fabric of technological civilization fall apart like so, if just the letter patterns change enough that agriculture,
becomes really hard. You know we're used to the rain falling pretty much the same way. They do yearly and everything that you know like we talk about. You look but the you know like refugees. How much you know we're the creek, a troubled you know having the huge influx of refugees can cause climate change is gonna, have people moving all over the planet because now the control food anywhere. So it's like I don't know. I said you don't need. I do like ocean rise is going to be huge. Most people live in coastal cities. Most of the wealth in the world is in coastal cities, but you don't really need too much to like really shift the weather patterns and then the thing you're used to falls apart now, when you, during human beings and our evolution from primitive hominids to what, our today and you sort extrapolating keep going and think about what we're going to be in the future and then think about what these creatures might be. That live.
One hundred million light years away or whatever the bucket is what I mean. We've got I've gotta think at whatever is holding us back our primitive instincts. These human reward systems that were engaged when we were running away from wild animals and fighting off tribes of invaders that slowly but surely those are going to either evaporate or evolve, and we're going to get to a point where we can be more rational about complex issues. If we do do that, but is the motivation for expanding the human race. Isn't sustaining the human race in a healthy way on this planet better option, then traveling to Mars or traveling to the other solar systems like, wouldn't we be better served trying to achieve some sort of a balance here on this planet. I think
uhm, I think one serves the other like we. You know you look at the human migration. From when we started right when we started off as a you know: a bunch of people in Africa, maybe a few one thousand right then you see this. You know it. Migration like or you know, saw it a bunch of us like a few hundred cross, the Red Sea, which was pretty low at the time and then it's like they just work their way around the coast. You know took boats over to Australia went all the way back around through, like we're explorers man like this. It's really, I think something fundamental for us psychologically to have these frontiers. Exactly that's my question now is: will we evolve past that? Well, I don't think that's a bad thing yeah. I don't think this bad thing, because again it goes back to the biosphere. This is kind of like I think, there's something deep in life that wants more life. Right. So if we call it a settle Mars right, then it's not going to be we are settling Mars is going to be the Earths biosphere right.
Really right arm. Yes, we were the agent of the bios fear right, and you know the buyers for started off as, like you know, single celled creatures in like little tiny parts of the planet, and then you have conquered the oceans and then when they were caught up in the beginning, there weren't continents, there was a water world, we started off, and so, when the other is enough continents yeah, then they took over the. U life took over the land. I think it's just kinda, like maybe kind of like a cosmic force of get a will be on you, and also if we do go to Mars, will essentially be ultimate panspermia. Yes, exactly right, yeah and that way right panspermia, which is we're always a weird word. Well, it's because people are so they feel weird about sperms. Right. So whenever given academic talking like parents, Birmingham strange when you say sperm in front of people that, like you piece of shit, yeah right do Cyantific term man. I swear matter, it's like saying, niggardly, yeah right. So it's very very difficult word to say: no has nothing to do with the n word, so uh. You know, I think I think it's part of life. I think life wants
or like in this? Is the question you raised about like what do we look like in a million years? What happens to a species? that become, and you know now we're in the realm of science fiction but yeah, it's all cool can hold like what might we become like the gods in some seem to think that way. This is my theory and I've thrown this out. Some of cuz people are sick of it, but I think that what we're looking at when we see these archetypal aliens with the big hat ' in the big eyes in the tiny bodies and no genitals, I think we I think this is what we're eventually going to be on genitals yeah. Really it's not going to move past that now, ma'am I'll see you in your pants, permia and I'll. Raise you typically typically not going there talking about gender. This is the problem with science. This is why we need diversity. I just think that if we closed
it types kind of built into us in some sense that we're moving past like well, what did we used to be? Well, we used to be monkeys right. What are we going to be? Well we're going to be that thing that thing that can levitate things with its mind. I think that communicates telepathically. That thing that has this incredible ability to map out the cosmos create wormholes and super advanced into advanced point where we we can even comprehend so like. If you think about how you know we evolved from at one point in time, we split from mollusks like what six hundred read somebody idea in year: zero. It's got to be on it's, it can be passed the Cambrian explosion, but you know it's like at three hundred right or I don't know yeah but so awhile ago how how much does a squid understand about cell phone networks and whether or not sprints you know, on this image of planets, really any good.
Takedown will extrapolate that to what this alien creature is. Be in terms of its understanding of time and space and matter versus out yeah. We are this crude thing, that's weird it out by the word sperm, where it is telepathically communicating with a universal language, and it has this unbelievable ability to manipulate matter and they've achieve homeostasis with varmint right. No longer have this. Well, that's one of the things about you know is the Fermi paradox right. Yeah like why haven't we seen site? As I already said, I we haven't looked enough to say that the we haven't seen evidence of life right. It's like open on your door and goes well where all the Buffalo yeah right I gotta go to Wyoming, but you know there is a kind of a problem with 'cause. We just doing a paper on this now you know part of the Fermi paradox. Let's go. I don't want to go too far on this, so we can go back I like it so yeah,
It is right so that so that the the idea that we had to people okay, so the Fermi paradox, is the idea that, like you know what, if there is, if the paradox part is like, if you're telling me that intelligence is common, it involves everywhere. Then why don't, I see it already right. So the you're asking about like why? Don't we signals from that? I've already answered that right, 'cause we just we haven't looked yet so that looked but part of his question. And this was done by a guy in heart I mean there is a for me- was that this happened over conversation for lunch. You know nineteen fifty, so you just put those that he said where are they all? But in nineteen? Seventy five guy named heart wrote a paper where he really mapped out here is the main problem. Even if you're traveling, to tend to the speed of light. If you manage to build like world ships that can travel across the stars, you know and and you're traveling at point. One percent of the speed of light in you know if if you do, that, you hop from one side to the other, build another ship hop to the next one. In about six hundred thousand years, you have covered the whole galaxy right, so six
as in sounds like a long time, but it's a tiny part of the Galaxy sister galaxies, ten billion years old, so in that, case like why, then every if just one species has to do that and they can cover Galaxy. So why aren't there? Why? Don't we see the colonies? Ships here right? That's that's uh much harder version of the Fermi paradox to get around a visit. Because if we did look we're already sending robots to Mars right, we're not going to Mars yet, but we're sending robots there. What? If we? side that there's no real benefit in sending biological entities into space and that the the dangers of radiation and asked her to win. So this is too great yeah yeah, far better to send something I mean look at what we're capable of doing now in terms of projection of video. We can take a cell phone video and you could send it to your friend in New Zealand and they can get it. Almost instantaneously go to new right. Do a Skype call right. We can get some sort of 3d.
Virtual reality, image ng of these planets, like hey man. Do you want to see It's like on Pandora, here, put these goggles on and you will go wherever you want that robot to go and you'll, be there right, and maybe it will get to the point where you can actually smell it and touch it and feel it and but not be compromised by its environment in terms of your biology. Well, that's actually, a each point, so that's one of the things we're looking at in this paper is the idea that you know good planets may be hard to find. You know there's this a novel by Kim Stanley Robinson who's like just from one of the great science fiction. This is called a roar and the you know the two usual world shipping us they build the colony ship. It takes. You know about three generations across space and they get to the planet and the planet sucks. It looked like it was going to be good. You know, but there's like crayons, tiny you're super small biological ship. That makes you can't live there and then come back right. So it's like it. Maybe Exactly like you're saying that you know, we think Oh you just land on a planet. You terraform it and you just turn it into habitable. It's like that, may not work, and maybe it does, but that's a science fiction idea. So right
highly possible. I mean there's. A lot of possible solutions is, which is just that one of to space. Travel is really hard and interstellar, not interplanetary, but interstellar travel is really hard and really expensive. I was just reading. Here on this with a guy estimated that, in order to get like say you wanted to have one thousand people on uh ship to get to another star that would take the economy the the computer need like us, but I think was a hundred thousand earth Connie's to build. May I mean Basil's. Are you listening time we're ready? It might have? What was it like? It was so much that, like you know you it lets you were, he said you know with the conclusion came to unless you were a multi plant species, if you're, like God, if you had conquered the entire or some The entire solar system, maybe you'd, have an economy that big, so one possible solution is good plan. It so hard to find and- and you know it's just too expensive. It really costs a lot and so yeah, it's not really worth. You know the effort, you You send out some probes once in awhile, but you know it's not well also
finding an environment- that's not just habitable, but stable mean our environment is habitable, but what's going on in Hawaii right now, there is a four hundred year old Lake that evaporated in a matter of hours right, it's the biggest, lake on the bigger yeah, it's gone right, which is such a tragedy yeah. But it's not it's not it's all. What a magnificent right! You watch that lava roll into that lake and see that's a wrap, kids yeah lake. You talks, yeah, and it really shows you the power of a planet. To right. Yeah I mean is your own that sources at work. What makes continent I made the island in the first place. I can't be upset at it billowing off. It is what, the island right. It's continuing to make the iron point here right right, exactly all you're crying about your house, but now you got more real estate, the shuttle it's making the island bigger, and it's always done that. Yeah. It's been doing that for millions of years. It's a fascinating place, yeah if you've been I've been and I've seen that much of the work the did you do to help
after saying now, man you got to do the helicopter thing, it's crazy because you fly over the volcanoes. We can't now because it's too crazy, but I did a few years back and you could watch the lava go into the ocean and you see these lava vents. Pour this red hot fucking yeah, it's like it's! blowing it's going into the open. Today I saw that part. We went to the park to see it, you know and then, when you when go to the volcano park, like vents were coming, New York City with the you know, the manholes you like that's right, that's just from this heat coming up on the bottom of the planet. Are you scared? Yellowstone, I, like the is that movie at two thousand and twelve now yeah like where the keys, that's such as that's what made the Adirondacks on deck's right was a twenty twelve movie, and I saw that with jacuzzi after tomorrow.
No, no! No! No! No, it was. It was a climate change. It was John Cusack, it's actually a pretty good movie yet another like destroy the plant. Those guys who made that hold on stop right. There does not a pretty good movie that movie, so I thought it was good movies, so stupid, stupid, constantly miss disaster by inches with the cars they never got a flat. They always got away from the world caving in to totally believable man, oh yeah, like super believable yeah, I know I thought well. Yellowstone is a Caldara. It's a super volcano in their experiencing thousands of earthquakes a year yeah eventually yeah well, and every six to eight hundred thousand years. It's a continent killer. The last time it blew six hundred thousand years ago yeah. So why are you scared- and I just don't think about it- for everyday man, I'll smoke, a joint, I think about once a month, but you're also really about yeah. Yes, I think I know I should okay, I'm mad, that to my list of things I'm freaking out about. I have friends in Australia and that's from go on yeah, because there's a lot
over to start driving on the left hand side, it's probably the only thing you can go. Do I worry more about Seattle? I lived in Seattle for a while, and they said super earthquake there looking at it going to turn the whole thing into Jello right, you get an earthquake, so bad that the ground just literally, becomes porous Is it really that scary there yeah they're predicting 'cause? You know Seattle's got like I mean. I don't know that much about this. I'm way out of my time in the danger zone. The plates are super deep, you know so get as many tremors, but but you know when it releases its gonna, you know it. It's it's be a super powerful earthquake and you know that it'll it'll be so powerful. Yet they said that like is not available, even even with the press. The the earthquake proofing is not Camillus left standing, he's so yeah Seattle. You must be
I mean because you're here right, you feel tremors. They must they happen all the time right. I've only been sometimes, but not all the time I felt them before the biggest ones I ever felt was when I first moved here. I first moved here in ninety four and it was right after the Northridge Earthquake- and I was in my house- and I felt I guess it was like a five point: five, where the whole thing just it was. It gave me the impression that the house that I was living in or the apartment that I was in was made out of the same stuff like a box that a refrigerator would come in, now you can move it around and going to play inside. The whole thing was just moving like easily left and right on the holy ship. That was, but I've only had a few times. I've felt when I'm like it's like it's first, I thought it was a truck. I thought What was rolling yeah and it's that Roland Piano and the one that I experience was nothing. I mean as yeah one one that they're getting you know right now, where in the world I mean, there's, always something that's like a five or
yeah. So this goes back to you about. The lot of planets right will be like way more plate. Tectonic Lee acted volatile yeah, and are so you know I mean a lot to me. I think good planets are going to be like really hard to find yeah. So you know it may be. That may be the solution. The other solution is, you know, I mean the way you guys now that was a did that article about the previous civilization. You know it was it. How do you know what out there is a previous of the house. And uh. You know, uhm one solution could be that look they were here. You know that but he did arrive and spent some time on earth. But if it was like half a billion years ago and they only last year every civilization as a finite lifetime. They only lasted for you even up a few one hundred thousand years. They wouldn't leave there'd, be no record left. There would be nothing left there be nothing You think that's possible that something's ever visited here, because that is the big question and that's the thing that gets that UFO dorks Smore. Has dubbed in anything, is the possibility that we've been visited. Yeah not
I'm I'm. Definitely not you ufos. There's, there's I've two arguments against your foes. One is, as, as you know, from Jason Right says: it's like look as astronomers. May we we're finding all those asteroids refining a little chunks of rock moving you nobody looks at the sky harder than we do right and you know it Unless you want to go to conspiracy theories, we would have found something another argument is like. What's with the headlights, you know I mean people are like oh man the lights in the sky and then they moved around and then they disappeared, but they don't really want to be seen. I'm like, why do they have headlights on like I just turn off the freaking lights? It's just. Why would they have lights in the first place, have lights in like what you came from another civilization and you can get around without your high beams yeah ideas. What the fuck are you seeing with those lights? not seen shyt yeah when was the last time you saw, I mean planes have lights, other planes don't run into him. They don't have light. They can see where they're going yeah. So so, why do they have right? Exactly the planes have lights, so other people can see himself there here, but they are mysterious. They don't want to be found in turn off the freaking light well, they yeah. They wouldn't have any lines yeah, they always have lights yeah.
I'm sure that people are always saying like oh nice, I like this guy and they move back and forth, and so it's impossible problem with human memory. Memories, horrible and memory of event, they are stunning. King, yeah, a nerve and or you think you saw something right. They've done all that research even trials right wing will do no see things current size, your photos. You know this colonel like, but do you think it's possible There could be life on other planets and it's possible. They could be intelligent life on other planets and we send probes to Mars. Why wouldn't you in that day? I think that if they do send something he they're going to send something without biological life inside of it yeah yeah, You know it's a really interesting question is like you were talking like what will we evolve into in in years. You know be possible. That biology is a short period of intelligence yeah. You just build machines and the machine things become, you know. Well, they download yourself into. I mean that's a real possibility that, like you know, silicon makes a lot more sense than wetware
The problem is we think of artificial intelligence as artificial? It's definitely real right, yeah exactly it's not it's not fake right right. There right. You know it's like there's artificial milk. Yeah, but it's it's a liquid, it's an actual liquid there's, not an artificial life. It's just silicon created life again the idea the Bio through this may be the what the biosphere solution to spreading itself ran out to getting. It may be that, like yes, silicon that that's a kind of a normal face, I mean I'm. I am super skeptical about, like a whole trans human thing, but we're going to download ourselves into intelligent. Are you ever going to one of those conventions? I don't know storks, there's some pretty serious dark in there. Well, there's geniuses in those dorks too so it's really interesting. It's like they're, fully wholly committed to this prospect, downloading them. So if you've talked Chris well before no, but I've read his stuff, I know you had a chance to interview him a few years back for full size, sofa, smart but he's like beyond or smart, but God Damn is he committed
to it. And then, when you get to it, you realize that what he actually wants to do is recreate his father. Yeah he's his father died when he was young and he wants to be able to. Through memories, an photographs, an what he knows about his father literally recreate his father and he doesn't have to be able to have uh issue with them yeah. He was talking about this right right, but he's doing is he's going way way into the future into the possibilities of he's not seeing like well five years now we're going to be able to say- and do you know, Giga Byte pictures through the mail now he's saying, let's think of if you keep going Ex financially right. Electronics and technology and innovation keeps continually accelerating. We could potentially get to the point where it's the impossible. Well, you would be able to
we create human beings based on your knowledge of them and then they'll be able to come up with some sort of a program will be able to have a conversation with his father. Yeah see, I think that miss under I mean I think it's you, it's true, but like the possibility of a singularity and technological development. But you know it's not going to be as father. That's the sad thing, so I think we seriously I've done some work on. This is an interest of mine about mind. What is mind you know instantly. Keep mind and matter an I think we have like serious misunderstood. We don't understand consciousness very well at all, so do the like yeah, if you could be trivial to download your consciousness into a computer, I think it's pretty. You know, there's like shitload of assumptions in there about like what find is in the relationship between like your neurons- and you know, awareness. So that's why I think those guys it is a little bit of religion yeah, you know, so it's like well, two thousand and forty five is the new benchmark. For whatever reason, that's the new number
I think it could be like every other, every other rapture are. We thought it was two thousand and forty five. We really got two thousand and sixty five. You know we went to this two thousand and forty five conference me and my friend are in Duncan, and we got to talk to some of these guys and is really fascinating and one of them had created. Robot, that was supposed to be him, but it didn't work. Well, They never revealed it at the conference in too many bugs in it. Yeah yeah, it's intriguing. It's like I want them to keep going 'cause I mean when when are we going to get to ex machina, and when are we going to get to talk about good movies? Or did you like that? One of my favorite movies ever so smart. So like just like simple, you beat me over the head with it. No cut the ship move, move moments in that movie, yeah, no, no you're, like whoa the entire. I think that's one of my all time, top twenty movies when she stabs him just emotionlessly and put them Those amazing amazing yeah alert Would you like a annihilation? Yes,
yeah yeah. I liked it. I didn't like it as much, but I liked it. It was very weird and the ending seemed like some producers, but their jizz in the soup and just like Yeah. Well, what's happening here who made this part yeah, but I enjoy it yeah. So I think You know I mean and the danger with anything when it comes to a I. So when you hear the interesting thing about a I like what we are getting making amazing strides with a yeah, no, no artificial intelligence is different from artificial consciousness. You know I mean, but but to a high that you know what we're getting out of. It is nothing like us right, so the you know back in the day where people were like, oh we're going to like model the human brain and that's how we'll do it like me? programs. That are what and what they've, like, I know that doesn't really work that well. So now is the whole big data thing, like your network here in big data and deep learning, we're like you, know, they're using statistical. You know the power of of having huge amounts of computing and statistical reasoning, so that, like you, know, get the computer like you know it will find the picture of the cat, but you have no idea
why it found that didn't reason like oh yeah that was sort of like cat, and I like cats, you know it's just like. Oh, these kinds of lines go with that kind of thing. It has no idea what it's doing, but it will act intelligently, and so that's you know I mean that's kind of The key in a lot of ways to I think people are, I think it's smart to think about the dangers of not necessarily when it dangers to us yeah not necessarily the dangers. Does the day used to this thing that we are this weird monkey thing it wants to keep being a monkey thing. Yeah. Well, you mean in the sense of like right, that's going to replace us. Yes, yeah yeah. I think it's inevitable. I mean do you? Don't you think that if you go back An interview, the single celled organism, before it branched off into multi cell cycle, boring in this multi cell bulshit. I want to stay a single cell at the bottom of the ocean at old man, with their rock'n'roll music are going to mail cars fuck that I don't want a car man I like staying down here, like there's real thought today.
That we are the wet where that is the problem? Yeah? No, no, listen! I I think it's fully conceivable like I'm not going to do. It would never happen, but, as a guy knows a philosopher says you know, there's a certain way in which everything we do with ai right now, it's not like you know. Watson is playing chess. It's like we're using Watson to play chess, it's our tool. You know, I think the purpose, the fear is the tool kits ATA hand, not that it like develops a thing like I hate humans. You know dad. I hate you, but more that it's like you know. The things which are not actually thinking they act, intelligent, but they're. Not thinking can have a huge like, we'll have a really negative impact. It'll be it'll, be a what is it there's an example like if you design something that isn't a I system to make paper clips, it ends up consuming the entire planet, making paper clips and on what you told to do right. You never told to make sustainable amount right exactly so I'm I'm more worried about that than I am of like Skynet. You know coming over and, like you know, deciding that told him a bit trouble the bombs honest with me to get rid of it there's no biological imperative, for
a silicon based, artificial intelligence to procreate, to keep going and move forward like. Why would they do that? We do it because we came from biology. Biology needs to stay alive and everybody wants big there are faster, stronger or you want to keep moving, and it's because there's well possibility that you might get consumed by some other life form, so you have to protect yourself and you have to lookout for other people who might want to read with a viable female that you copulate right. There's a lot of shit. That's going on! It's built evolutionarily to have the right right. We assume that somehow or another these artificial creations will have as well right, which is why, right I mean yeah like if we lose we program it in so the thing is like, but will it wake up like? So that's even if it does wake up, will it have the inclination Tord scientifically search. Would it even want to send something through the card
yeah you us yeah yeah. I know that's a really interest, I I you know. I think we just don't know right to. Actually, we understand so little about what consciousness is in it's imperatives are like yeah. Once you wake up and you're like oh you're dead, you know dad I mean like why like? Who knows? What really did you like? Battlestar Galactica? I would love to battle star. How did God damn good was at new guide your version, the end of her actions? because I love the old version, because I would say I was fourteen years old now that yeah spaceships, but the new version was amazing mark if there is a show that I wish they would bring back its Battlestar Glock yeah at the end, which is quite the ending though it was, you know they had to end it all right. Yeah, Fuckin' series was brilliant. It was brilliant, was amazing about that. The way they wrapped, like all the political shift that was happening after nine hundred and eleven, is that man from like the torture scene says yeah man. And then he had the whole thing with Starbuck about under what was she yeah? That was a re. You know there's a couple like it was five years right and there were a couple sees
Things were like it kind of got. A little ran off the rails. That girl, what's your name, Katie Sackhoff's, other name, Starbuck yeah. Is that her name yeah she's, so good. She was really good in that role in both like conquering stuff, since she's got a movie out right now on Netflix, I haven't seen it, but I'm saying like oh yeah there's you know, but she had rights, he sort of disappeared. She was so good in that show. I was like well, this is this is like the launch her yeah. It was revolutionary about that show to the way they did the special facts for, like you know, the camera moved around like there's a space ship, but I'm you know, I don't have it didn't, do You know it's sometimes do those long pants, but was it kind of opened up a whole new way of sort of looking at? You know just sort of what it looks like to be in space and stuff yeah, but it really scared the out of people in terms of artificial life some, yet we create the decides, it's done with us and it's taking over. Well, you know it's amazing about that, and this is I've written about this. This idea that, like you know, we keep telling that story over and over again yeah. How many movies you know. Can you think of that? Have that and I think, like some really interested in math right that you know,
hold it. You know mythology the way like you know we can never get away from the mess you know coming of age. The hero's journey to also yet Joseph came a big Joseph Campbell fan, but, like you know what happening with this. Now we got there's nothing, there's nothing in the storehouse of myth to take care of building machines that take over right. So the reason we telling that story over and over again is preparing ourselves. We're building the myths? You know that sort of will help. We don't know, what's going to happen, but we have to keep telling this story 'cause. We can feel coming you know, I mean they don't like this is, so we need to keep telling a story to kind of explore what the options are, and I like That's I liked the ending, and I don't think the ending was great, but the idea that, like yeah. This balance. You know you could keep going through the cycles of trying to achieve this balance between you know, silicon forms and non silicon and biological forms, but well we're not. We, we're worried that we're going to be taken over by something else, but we're not overly concerned with evolving our own biology.
And changing, and maybe that's the solution in terms of our physical Visions is some sort of a symbiotic connection between us and tech. Ology that instead of artificial technology and artificial life taking over you, bring us instead of that, maybe we become a part of it becomes a part of us and we had you have glasses on. You can see better with those that's essentially yeah right right right, these things. You know these cell phones. I got all my memories in there used to know cell phones in large, my house two days ago, without my phone and I turned around in a panic on my own ST where's. My bucket photos like no everyone used to have phone numbers in your head. You know like twenty folder EI. Can't even number is my wife's name I can't like I got three digits crazy yeah, but We remember a lot of other stuff. Now I mean yeah. I have Soma, I mean
I'm I'm really overwhelmed. I think I'm in that weird zone where I just don't have. I don't have enough data space I don't have enough storage yeah for all that you got to kind of pick and choose right. Sort of you know. This is like weather, like Wika Pedia, we're all human knowledge, entire sum of human knowledge. Right there. You know I mean like well what, if we talk about changes right, so you were talking about what an amazing change that you can have pretty much. You know, like you, know, uh. I love comics right. Comic Marvel Guy way back right and back in the day. Hey. You know you paid for your. You have to you know for you're you but uhm You have to go to the store every week and get the comics, and you know- and now you just look up Captain America and you can know everything there was about his. You know his origin story in writing. So it's like that idea that, like there's so domains of knowledge that you can't instantly access and have all the back story that you need. That would be. It Comic books are amazing, but I have to be honest, comic books on an Ipad or better because you,
I don't see the next frame yeah, you just swap yeah and then you get the next frame it you, don't you don't see it in advance like if you're reading the left side, yeah, doctor, strange and the right side is an explosion. I like what I see that yeah see. That's it's coming now yeah. I guess kind of a shady way to do it. No, I agree on the Ipad. It's fucking amazing, amazing yeah. I know when you do that thing now with the it's like embarrassing. I said you know, professor of physics, at a major university, I have like three thousand dollars worth of comic books. I'm not in Paris like that embarrass. It can't be millions still brilliant guy, but you just also like Kulesh it yeah. Well, should I be reading like those ds key or something I don't know you know it's probably my dad was my dad was always like dogs started with a writer. So your comic book but I think that I'm learning, especially with Marvel Right, Martin, great language, right, leaning towards synopsis from Marv You know so especially yeah. I mean some of the like doctor strange, had some great shit. You know fan
four didn't! You know the doctors. You know it's obvious the science adviser for doctor strange with for the movie for the movie, where you really yeah. I was using this data I would say that you have to correct anything, no, no, not really, because they called me, and so I know, Scott their tax at lunch with their breakfast. It's got to be yesterday. I know Scott from my first book, which about signs a religion, you know side, you know, and we got to somebody Buell connected us. We've been talking for a long time and when he got tapped to do doctor strange you contacted like you see your emails at Marvel, wants to talk to you yeah, it's like Thank you. Thank you. I got out there for damn. It can feed man. It was just like wow man, and so we basically worked on. He wanted to work on to I two things for that and what's funny years I never a doctor strange right. I was like a science guys about tony stark sure you know or or uh Spiderman or the x men, so I never like I use magic, so I think we have to figure out was uhm.
People that that scene, where he first do the counters, the ancient one you know- and she has to kind of, like you know, school him on there's more ways to think about the world than science and the multiverse. That was the other thing that I could have written the block a lot on the multiverse, but man it was awesome. It was so much fun to be in the writers room, you know with them and just like throwing around ideas, wow yeah yeah. I will probably never ever happen again, but I don't care you don't care. I got my shot that you know there's a weird thing that when you're young you like all this cool stuff, but then when you get old, you are supposed to be more pragmatic. You supposed to Bandon that stuff and be mature. But I was thinking. I was super embarrassed when I became an adult that I still like muscle cars yeah. It's like. Why do I like these stupid things and I love them. I would see one tribe, I hear the rumble. I go. Oh it's awesome and then became an older adult I was like. Who gives a that's really what it is yeah now we have a care is going to you know because I love video games. I play a lot of video games and people like about the
you dork! Look like children yeah there awesome man, there's not there's no better way to kill an hour specially after a stressful day, then to go and shoot aliens. You know I mean this is like you know, I mean it stimulates the mind mean J mean I've talked about this many times that we have this deep appreciation for chess and Go and all these ancient games, but there games like Starcraft Craft and even like one on one quake matches that require intense, calculating right Think about the environment, understanding of the map that you're right you're competing in right. It's so there's a lot of strategy. No, that's that's really good about it. I tend to be. I do a lot. I really like rpgs. You know so with it with a map and everything so wanted them, Everquest dork. So well, I don't do ever. I don't do anything multiplayer, because I'm so bad at it. That, like I know, there's some kids some thirteen year old in Korea is just like your dad or your dead spawn die spawn, but coming with a really good story. You know whether you what's the game, you like, oh god, my favorite,
name is last of us. I know what is that what I do zombie games, because I get scared scared. When I saw the it's, a yeah right that might work. So uh, maybe living dead. When I was like twelve, it was on PBS little screen and it just like after that, I'm sorry zombies, wow yeah. I can't- we put it on tv like you know, for it was like the one thousand one hundred o'clock show so, but last this is kind of a zombie survival story, but it's beautiful I mean it's real the narrative of it is this guy ought years after, and that that's the thing about this thing, it opens up with the day of the zombie outbreak happening and the guy loses his daughter, like you, see him, lose his daughter, Anne, it's so well, it's the same company that did uhm uncharted Witcher other. I really like those as well an so it's just like acting and it was really beautiful and then It's twenty years later and this guy is broken. You know what I mean. He's just he's just he survived
this year. The society is falling apart, but you know you track him as he gets this young girl who is immune and he's gotta take her cross country you know and you're following this guy story and then there zombies in the theme of a movie. A really recent movie. Wasn't it like a black up before and movie with foreign zombie movie. That was supposed to be very good, but that was the idea behind it, but it was his own daughter wasn't. Maybe it wasn't that they took it from this, because this is because you know so last of us is one like huge amounts of awards. How old is it Uh six years may be left with two is just about to come out. The Swarts Nager movies, older than that I believe, 'cause it came out. Right around the time. Where his wife left him 'cause, bang the made yeah
your lips with the governor, then, when the governor his post, was post, it was post post, governor yeah, but That seems a reoccurring theme that is a real car you're going on anyway right right right. How many times is that come back the plague? Why jail out they come back to Life John Bees yeah, so you got to wonder what's up with that like? Why is that something that's like stirring around in our head? I think the apocalypse is because we kind of field were nervous about what's happening with us, because we can see sort of sure pushing up again found your also vulnerable. To Disease and we're vulnerable to mean there's so many different things that people can get rabies malaria. We had plagues, we used to have plagues all the time you know so yeah. No, but that's what makes this game so great is that it really takes the world after the fall seriously an it's heartbreaking. You know what I mean: that's it's beautifully done scarier than, but you know beautifully done and it's for me. It's like everything that I love most things like you're saying. Is you get into
situations and you're going to get killed. You know if there's dark souls for like there's no getting through dark souls, apparently the most hardest game ever I've never played it. But you know this game is hard and you What is dark souls dark souls, is uh. It's also a story based. You know, open world game single player. I think that's probably multiplayer mode but um. It's like you know a kind of an elvish you know you're in that kind of world medieval trying to stay alive, trying to stay alive and it's just like the hardest game ever that's what they say but like you know to, good card game. You gotta, you gotta you can keep going back like I just died. Alright, let me try. Let me try turn around from this side. You know, let me use this weapon. Let me get on it's it's really. We did a by my gum. I had a text book that just came out a couple years ago and we did a video game. We built a full first ever full video games for an intro astronomy course, and the whole idea was like the the game is like the first thing. I do learn the rules right and that's what makes
being in a game world. In terms that you know, there's a whole set of rules got not a craft. You got to know which weapon to use in different kinds of situations, and I deal with video game was like just make. The real the real rules make him the science rules right, so you want to mine an asteroid. Well, how do you know which asteroid has the most uh, you know or in it you know I'm just going to do what you're going to do in astronomy, I think like you know, video games have not recognize they haven't. Like you said people don't under actually how important they are. You know for teaching for all kinds of things. Video games and for for like a future of storytelling too well, people take 'em. They think that's a way time until they find out how much these professionals make you know. So I was saying that some guy What is the number that kid was making five hundred thousand dollars a month plan for night? Wasn't what Sean that, Sir John? As as, but it's way more than that he makes more than that. So what is fortnight,
explain for my to me, I'm sorry. I was still in far cry. Five. The third person shooter, you jump around. Shooting people, I'm good with third person, shooters yeah, like is this story, or is it just like your? You know, you got a phone call people up. I think the story is really just drop it into the survive out. There's no campaign mode or if they're in there is, but that's a separate yeah. That's not whatever you know. What's interesting to me about four night: the graphics suck. Don't you ask me the graphics style, does that that has yeah. That's what I like, I like it. I I xbox too yeah yeah somebody had a an image and it was from, two thousand and seven, it is said man look at this. I wonder what video games going. Looking like the graphics gonna be looking like in twenty eighteen and then it shows fortnight It's like this is like the textures. Are they one hundred percent? You turn the textures off when you play online. If you don't have powerful enough computer sure you don't like waving right, so it doesn't extreme. It doesn't make your video game video card work so hard, but also
it makes it easier to recognise shapes because they're not like that was the thing they did with quake. They would we turn the textures off, when guys would be like playing in high level matches- and you would just deal with these flat- walls and then the object, the person that you were fighting against. Would they would stand out in stark contrast right, so you have otherwise he'd be in this castle. Wall have incredible textures on the wall and you wouldn't be able to see them as easily distracted, I love, that's one thing I think a lot about video games to is, like you know the scenery. Sometimes I just want to stop and be like well yeah, it's like you. The right side has full graphics. Yeah, it's not so yeah depends on what you were on the right. Side is reasonable. I mean it's still a little bit when you know and then that's not much different at all. Yeah I mean sort of the left side is just dark. I like this grass, yeah look at the graph of different building, there's still some movement on the ground. It's not flat. Plane like it isn't quake go to quake, play, go to quake three no textures
make a video or a pull up. A video of that and you'll see what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is like literal flat walls where people turned everything off, and it got to a point where they weren't allowing it in certain competitions because it makes such a big difference 'cause now you're, just like it started in front of a blank screen. They also, you could also replace all of the characters with a larger character like like say, You are playing as like this girl, so This one it's doing like it, showing the mod in between Maybe I'm thinking what I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm losers, not squeak. I've heard there you, you son, of a bich. Jamie ball, pull up quake, no textures pull up quake, no tax, features, and then you could watch what it looks like. That is not know, textures that different. You can see the difference in the color. Prison things are moving it's when they turn off. All the textures you you get to see these flat. Well, that's what it looks like right see
yeah now. That is a way different experience. It would be much easier to fit to see right. You can't shadow still exist, but all the tech- these are gone and if you show a video that see if you can find a video that Jamie when uh videos, you see things moving around with no textures and you realize what an advantage it would be if you were playing someone who's your honestly, dealing with all this visual input, you all these different shyt, hi Viz, ability quake three that's hard to find out. Who is this? Kansas Kwik LIVE okay. This is all right again. I still got to ask what is quick. I mean I well I've heard of it, but I've never played it like it's the ultimate first person shooter and it's the regional one. It was originally quake one and well, there was doomed, but it was still I've heard of light yeah I've. Even you know, there's this. We did doom didn't they. They came out with another. Didn't they come up with another version of doom yeah. Yes, they did and there's another one that's coming out soon, but what quake?
one was: was these cool maps and you'd run around and shoot each other, and you have these death matches, so one on one deathmatch is shoot rockets at each other. And it's too you're seeing it through your perspective like so. If you have a rocket launch, you see the rocket launcher in front of you right now The whole idea person. What is this one? This is quake champions. This is the newest version. I mean the graphics are fucking incredible in these things. Now they so looks we're going to have we're setting up a lan here, a local area network. Here we're going to stream, live and and play each other excellent and waste man but I'm sure many bad, sometimes I'm sort of like three hours just went by I'm go to sleep a little bit of well whatever it will suck up your time suck
I can't play I'm just I'm not good enough to play those kinds of things like it's. Just like spawn die, spawn dino. You can figure out how to do it and you're smart guy. How dare you say that a dare you put the limitations myself yeah, you can't do that. You just need to learn left with Wasd learn how to move your fingers around the consoles or bullshittin at some people say I sent you making any real accuracy with a console. That's your problem! How do you figure that I mean the console now please listen to. How do you learn physics? How do you? What is that all this fucking you do understand on a scion movie were like you can do it, man, you, cats, like rocky, or something that's right in karate kid or whatever we have done that for video games. You hoping that movie were so. Someone teaches someone how to play videos yeah. I think I'm nerd in the beginning and he's like a loser, but it comes back and he gets the girl well one of the This is why I wanted to talk to you about this in particular, is because I am more and more convinced that it's our
future- may lie in some artificially created world and that people are more interested in more attracted everyday to virtual reality, yeah mantid reality witcher reality and it can change. What was that game that one game where there was a created worlds going to pull that up earlier and it's called no man sky? Oh, I played that I've played I bought, because because any space game on, like you already know it is because you know they have eighty trillion world, but we're almost there. Basically, they don't look that different yeah. So it's a cold meal, eighty million bottles of and over there yeah you go there and people are shooting each other and stealing money. No! No! What is better for that cut! Yeah right I mean it's. You know it looked like it was you, but what's better is elite dangerous. So after this, I was so disappointed in this? I went back and I found a leap
dangerous, which actually just disappointed this 'cause there's no action. Yeah there was nothing just ran around in your mind stuff. It was sort of like that. Just wasn't, you know exciting. There was nothing exciting. There was no. There was no. So I, like, I said I don't usually play sort of these massive multiplayer games. So this is elite, dangerous elite, dangerous and it is man, the trading or you know you could decide like. Oh I want to be. I want to be a bounty hunter, and it was so rich. I just I spent there was like a good six months of my life that I was like you know, working my way getting better ships, I became, who doesn't wanna be bounty But I'm saying like that's what everybody's and this just this game had and there's like I don't know a few one hundred thousand people in their creating the universe. It's evolving, they add storylines, so you know. Well. We are setting up an htc vive here and where we was HTC about dairy. I know man, it's like you know, that's it call yourself a dork you call a real nerd fixing virtual reality? It's
consumer virtual reality with? My friends, never done the Yeah I've been waiting, I've been sort of well, we tried to get and Jamie went out yesterday and look they're all sold out, so we had to order one and so were ordered and we're going to have it set up in here and the the games, I played the games of two years ago and I'm sure there are way more advanced than they are now yeah. There's a crazy archery game where you're on top of the cash and these little monsters that look like they could be in South Park. They're, not like detailed right kind of cool, looking monsters and you shoot out on with bows and arrows were trying to invade the castle. But man, it's addictive, 'cause you really look down. You see them all around you. You have like a real So how do you play dodge? Instead? My always been my question about. Like you know, I sit in my chair and I play my video game. So like Well, this is it see this guy has a thing in his hands: he's moving around. This is like a star wars, one right and there's a bunch of different ones that I've seen always gotta be standing right
yes, Demi Moore, is awesome. If you want to just like sit down with a barn like can, I can but there's also a boxing one that you get a real work out and while so it's a game- and I plated over Duncan's also think- is a video of it. But it's what's weird because You punch wrong so like the like if I'm holding my hands like this, which is I'm holding my hands vertically, where my thumbs are up right, the boxing gloves would be horizontal, like they would be fewer punching someone yeah, so so it doesn't do the turn. No, no! It's weird! So as you move your hands forward like this, which you really would punch like that, the not the the punches Come out so they've got to iron that I was going to say that will be something will workout and yeah and make the controller rotate the way of fist would but, as you're doing it, you throw real punches
I'm a strong punches? A? U and when they throw punches you in the hit you you see a white flash in front of you. That's good makes you nervous just like real sparring. Does yeah yeah? Well, I know in so like this question of like what we gonna do with virtual reality, because, like I said you know I already you know, I see huge potential for like education in gaming and that's why we we built our yeah here's this is me over Duncan's house just want anybody to walk by. You know I gotta go into bands being guy up moving around them, see, that's the thing. I always wonder when Duncan got piscos, that guy was fucking Dunkin up every day, it's like dude. How did you beat it? move around. Don't stand right in front yeah yeah! This opens the rope a dope. Well, you gotta, you, gotta have foot, were can movement, but you you can really get a work out with that. I'm not joking yeah you get exhausted and you know you. You keep going and fight out tougher and tougher opponents right. Well, you know that's a
and that you know they talk about. Haptic suits, like were eventually you're, going to wear things. I didn't see the I read the book. I didn't see the. What was it? The movie that just ready set ready one. I didn't see you, I don't see you have you read the book. The book really good. The book is like full immersion like the homework is about like when virtual reality is it everybody has the suits that you're kind of in this ball. You play the game in a pool, so you can run, and you know, but in some sense yes, just starting out along these lines. Well, they have these places. You can go that they have a warehouse setup and you go inside of it and I went through one with my kids and it's star wars, one at Disneyland, dude, it's fun, and why there you go across your walking across this platform like they have all these different places where you actually walk through and as you walk in through you look to the left and to the right, there's fire, but you feel the heat from the fire it's fucking easy, so I've done like heater set up so that blows up and storm troopers start shooting at you. This is it right here? What is it called the void, devoid yeah
and you do this, I'm telling man this is better than any of the rides at Disneyland and it's just outside of Disneyland in downtown Disney. So you don't have to pay. Yeah get it, but it costs. I think it's thirty five dollars half an hour. It's not cheap, but it's not too bad. It's not too bad, but it's it's fucking awesome I mean, is awesome and so so the question is what happens with this right if you, right? 'cause, yeah virtual reality we're just on the cusp of right, we're just beginning to like start playing around with these technologies, would you say to for years it kind of sucked it was sort of clunky. Well we're gonna, we're we used to play pong right. That's what I started with you, I'm a fifty five year, I'm fifty! So I remembered how long we were excited. I can't believe I'm controlling the t v, making a single move on the tv or asteroids yeah Lou, the STAR Wars game, I think, was called after its. We flew through the train was just like wire.
Frame yeah, but it was amazing, top dropped. A lot of quarters sure so go from that to what you were showing us here, these crazy new space games and then imagine what these mean the star Wars thing today. The void is really cool, but you know that it's not real right, but it's cool But I you know: it's not real yeah, well, you're not gonna, be able to tell us not real and twenty yeah yeah right and how much time are you wearing by the way right when you do that? Are you o really the last time you and you hear what you feel when you get shot? Well, if you like to do yeah, I never you know it's funny. Even with controller on my crappy ps4 who uh vibrates when you know even that's enough to sort of give you it's amazing how much the brain sort of picks up on these signals when you're using the HTC vive- and you draw the arrow back when it gets to the nocking point, you feel it like that's cool, then you release
there's a feeling in your hand using the arrow, it's really cool yeah. So what happens when I can be sort of like grandpa brags parable people should be going out in nature, which I think they should be it should you know now, but you know I always I'm always aware. Whenever I'm sort of like oh shoot, this could be terrible. I always remember the whole you can see in, like I think at some point, Socrates, two thousand and five years five hundred years ago is like. Kids today they're all bunch of assholes right, so you know who knows what we'll do with it and you know hopefully maybe it'll help you know. Maybe I don't know you know I mean I think there is. I don't want to be. Oh that's terrible, but there clearly are going to be dangerous with It's a different game. Gaming is new. One oh boy, I'm, but I am going to be fun, shooting with the yet just the hands. Yeah and so you have two little hand
controllers, and one of them would be the arrow and the other one would be the bow and you wear him and that's the haptic part and it will change controllers on. Will you feel the arrow vibrating against the rise of the bow as you draw it back to it's really cool? Well, it's funny 'cause! You know we talked about like for the game that we built, awesome. It's really a lot of fun to actually go through the process of like How do you? How do you script? How do you teach people? You know like 'cause that whole thing that when we get in a good, when you are good game right, you know The first couple hours of a game and you just learning the basic stuff and you get excited call. This is a cool world to be in, but I'd be interested to think. Like sort of some point, I did try VR for the same thing, because what can you once you contact people, be tactile, not just sort of in their head? What else can you do to sort of show him teach him things? You know like glaciers or you know I mean sure, yeah, that's another thing in Disneyland. They have a thing called soaring over the world that you see in a chair and you get raised up and there's a giant like
I MAC style, screen and flies you over these arm. It's it's incredible yeah, so beautiful, right and you do have different smells or in the air in the different places that you go to like when you go over the television yeah, the elephants, you no grass and hay, I think that just a matter of time like as we were talking about before, where by Logical entities might not be necessary for space travel in my bill, sent a robot put on a suit and be able to experience. These were right right, like in real time yeah. Well. So when you know you, the simulation argument yeah. This is a philosophy, argue about the you know, and so that's a really interesting ideas. We just run through it for people who don't order. Okay, so I forgot who was Nick both strum that maybe not a brand new car, the others this this guy floss working with this really an argument for like why we're probably a similar, probably somebody Else- is simulation self aware simulation and the idea is like look you get one. You have been talking about like civilizations when they get a million years ahead. What can they do that
so powerful, they can build computers that can simulate real, like we simulate, reality were like just like in the matrix. You have programs that are self aware, and so once they get to, that and they start running simulations of the world right? It's cheaper to it's cheap to run simulation, so they just run trillions of them right. So the idea is that from that argument there's more simulated realities. Then there is the one real reality. So odds are right. You know if there's a trillion simulator realities in one real reality, you're, probably in a simulated reality. So are we You know everything that right now you know. I think this is real. You know, but what we are is an incredibly detailed and we are self where programs in you know So matrix of you know so that argument is brilliant. I mean you know, let me just from just from the point of view of like numbers, uhm yeah, there's lots of reasons to say: that's not possible but, but it raises this issue of like yeah what is simulation, but if you were in a simulation whole matrix thing, if you were
a simulation. That was that real? How would you know? How could you know there they were going to be. If you allow technology to continue right, if we keep moving forward in an exponential pace, there's going to come a point in time where we have something indistinguishable from reality right. So how do we know that we're not already in it yeah and once we're in it? Will we create another reality? Will We continue to create simulations inside of simulations like fractals in fractals, exist in nature. They exist everywhere in the universe, and there's also the argument that the atomic structure itself might really be a universe right right, yeah which is dude, Super Stoner talk but It's really. I mean what that's why I love science fiction. You know the explorations of these ideas, you know. Making their way out there and there, but you know, there's an exercise. Is there fun exercises and there's a way in which again, when you think a million two million years in the future? This is, why might you know I hate the Lupus back to climate change, but just like God, if we could just make it through
because what we're going to be right, I mean there's, there's a whole universe. One thing I did about interstellar was the idea that, like our future cells, which have now become integrated in the very fabric of reality: yeah, that's how far you've evolved to become the laws of physics that they're kind of opening up the wormhole for Us- and so you know a million years is so long that you who knows what we can become- and it's just like you know- don't hold this I mean I'm- you know I'm not a fan of the people that deny science. But one thing I am a fan of is watching them do it like me, monkeys throw shade at the zoo. This is something weird about watching. People argue like really obvious right. Talking points and and most of by the way, have no financial interest in climate change, one way or the other they're, not they're, not the wealthy, delete there. These weirdos there like vampire for
it's like. They want to be recognized as like an a an ally of the of the elite. They don't somehow under that. I was gonna get and that's really what it is right, yeah. You know, and it's like a and again it's the tribalism. But, as you said, it's like watching him do this and the part that's so. Frustrating is just that like if you're using science, it's not fair, it's not fair that, like oh, you get like you know you get in an accident and you're like. Oh god, please give me the MRI and then you know as soon as your arm heals going to be tweeting about how, like you know, climate change is all bulshit there as flat yeah sure what to do with that. I mean I was just like I mean: is this something we should pay attention to, or we should we just be like? Ok, fine Go ahead. Do your thing! Well, I had an interesting conversation with Neil Degrasse Tyson about it and he said one of the real problems with debating these people. Is you elevate their profile and they're never going to leave it in the first place in right? the reality, is there's a mental illness involved in a lot of these people. This schizophrenic, yeah, there's
there's something wrong with that. They believe this and then there's this. Is this man massive lack of education and lack of reading they're not interested in understanding how they know that the earth is round or how they know that every other planet in the solar system is round or how they know that every other planet that we've observed all the stars are around. Why they're round right? Why it's a matter of mass and gravity and all these they don't care about all that the what they don't think as a government as if it's the government is like one cup ball, that's what it is. Equally minded people they're all working together to you over, so how by convincing you that the earth is round yeah, it is one of the dumbest things but it's also a sign that we've created is world, that's really easy to survive and we've nerfed all the hard edges and we keep the wolves of
treats out in this series dumb, dumb yeah, and then they get on line computers, which is hilarious, yeah yeah, these idiots might did research. Would you look at a website that you to Abi Research to video right, yeah yeah? It's it's a it's kind of stunning yeah! Well, like you know, they think your point about actually we've made the world so safe because yeah. It is a certain way like you, you know in the in the hunter gatherer. Those people would be food to those other people or stand there. Looking at the tiger be like that's, not a tiger yeah. I said it's generally, you know exactly yeah, so I so it's an it's right, but what's weird about that, so that is like the or exactly that is the dumbest shit. You could possibly imagine so, but there's dumber God dammit this people think there's aliens underneath the earth and there's to yeah reptilians and secret Kabal of Kid fucka. Does it run the world and you made it really excellent point just admit go right, which is it like? The philosopher, Karl Popper once said. If there was a conspiracy, it failed the whole conspiracy thing,
he's like oh yeah, everybody's in on it like, as if like look there are the powerful there, the there's, a lead to control. You know, but they have college end. Is there beating the crap? That's a whole history of the world going after each other left and right, and it's about finances right right and the idea that, like oh somebody's, going to be able to keep this amazing secret right, you know about the earth is flat and never I mean you know it just it gives people more credit than you know than they deserve it. You would have to have everybody on the same page, all the different governments all over the world. They're all again, yeah lie about their like where's the benefit in lying about the shape of the planet. Yeah right right, well, who's, making money, man, who's, making money, but here's here's what's really messed up is that climate change denial is just like a slightly less version of that right because no is a guy writer. Philosopher Morton forgot his first name, We talked about climate change, being a hyper object. Like you
but modern world. We have things that are hyper objects mean to just so big that we just. We have a hard time wrapping our minds around them and that hyperobjects, you know. If we're going to evolve, we're going to evolve new behaviors. One of them is the capacity to deal with hyper objects, but people want everything to be simple. You know I mean which cracks me up because, like they're fine with this being complex, you know their cell phone can be complex. 'cause I like to use it, but, like you know the idea that You know the climb, the kitchen, it try machines, they they needed it freaks them out, because it's too complicated or something so they go for the simple answer, which is that you know it's a it's a conspiracy, it's a hoax that I love this one. The scientists are all doing it for the money, I think my pay was that good, that you know I mean I think a big issue happened with Al Gore when Al Gore, now with an inconvenient truth, everybody connected Al Gore with the left he's a Democrat, and then I found out that he flies private jets in the like this mother yeah, and so the idea is all bullshit yeah, and so there was enough there's enough holes yeah when they start.
Poking through and then looking for conspiracies and then looking to to deny the whole thing. I totally agree. I really wish you know. I've got nothing against Al Gore, but but I wish she did It didn't become the face of climate change, 'cause, it just pushed. I mean I've. Only Neil Degrasse, Tyson or Sega still alive- or you know had done it would have been totally something 'cause it wouldn't have. It is off of it stream away. Yeah I mean- I don't know I don't know about, but you know pull up this article. Al Gore may be the first climate. Change, billionaire or green billionaire. That he's made so much money doing these seminars and speeches and the film itself and doing that people will come right and then people think it's actually came out. It didn't do that. Well,
and then people who met him out already. I think so I thought I saw I don't know Gore could be the world's first carbon billionaire former vice president become the world's first carbon billionaire after investing heavily in green energy. That's ok! That parts ok right, because if he's investing in these companies and the company start making money witchlike already so shore solar employees, more people now than cold because the enemies and coal, but that was one of the dumbest things and when Trump became president, I bring back call like what how about bring back not consists, rocks together, start Now it's like a fuckin' massive coal. It's as if the typewriter companies got together make sure you never bought a computer like we're going to computers illegal, because you gotta keep using typewriters cools. Fuckin' terra below Maryland, cross the border anymore. It's like you know it's just but listen. I got about one thing that you always technology. Is that, like this, you know when you change infrastructures, people are going to get hurt. Yeah yeah, I mean, like I mean for those coal miners, man, that's what they've done their whole life. It's been an honorable thing they've, you know so you
He had to be like hey we're. Switching infrastructure see you, you know, there's got to be some deep you're standing of of of con navigate of consequences and helping people who are going to be yeah. You know put it out training how to put up soul. You know solar panel. How do you feel about universal basic income of you ever? Looked all yeah yeah? No! No! I thought about that a lot. You know it's a big thought when right consideration when it comes to auto nation technology in you know with the automation thing, it's so true right, because you know when you think about what's been going on with the last election, you know, and everybody was like. Are you know like you know what happened with blue collar people in a blue workers from being which is toll? really true, but like man, it's not China, it's automation, and that's what we would really is going to screw up the whole nature of work. You know, for everybody truck drivers having me to university professors. Is we got the ai, you know the automation coming on and right what do you?
What do you do with a little more within a university professor is one day going to be retro that kids are going to want to learn online they're going to want to learn through some sort of an interactive course so that you can get on your phone rather than go to an actual physical place bull? You know I mean it's possible, but I think this is going to be the whole question with the new economy or whatever, whatever happens, whatever we're moving into is finding those place. But you know what I don't want to machine right. So right now like so when that was at the movies came out the massively online courses yeah that was like five years ago. I went to catch it. Universities are done every we gonna, take these online courses and never happened. You know because people want to be together, they want to learn. They want the experience of happy up. You know my part of mice It's not just lecturing them a great lecture. My students are probably I bet you are man, your good talker. Students say. I know that the reviews you get at the end- the guy said hate to say this, but you know you should make those tapes for people to go to sleep because every class, your voice, put me to sleep,
Have you met in nice ways like you, have a nice voice. You know uhm that last of aggressive yeah so far, areas- and I think that I think people will always with education- they'll be some component of it- that a yeah sure you can learn online one too, but I think, like you know, we're gonna have to they'll they'll, be put they'll, be a place for like people coming in and like learn. In groups and having somebody who spent their whole life studying the thing telling you you know, what's going on right, There's a lot of things were like an we've lost a lot of this a mentorship or right to ship right. There's a lot of things you need. Somebody who knows me knows that their whole life going all your your your crank it this way not that way, because you can get that will never work. You know right. You can't learn that from watching a video or something yeah, well there's certain things. Martial arts, which is a big part of my life, you have to learn from a person, could have tiny thing. Is that they must show you while you're doing it, but you can learn a lot of things from videos. No no
yeah, there's a lot of things that people are putting up online, instructional courses and stuff, and I use some of 'em. You know if I have to fix my sink. Sure, yeah yeah, it's kind of amazing yeah. I know yeah so well. You know, I think, like with everything, so that will circle back to the? U P, I you don't like with everything we're gonna have to invent new ways? We will because we're just going to beings like there's a way in which we're going to find niche places that there will be economies where people make things yeah. In the end I mean you, be, I may be necessary I think it may really be necessary, because if there's no work, you know I mean that's a recipe for disaster, he's known for your democratic society, yeah hope we can move past. This idea that everybody who needs that is some sort of a welfare brat yeah right right. Well, you know There's no work at all. You know I mean 'cause, like you know, this is the thing
but I would like with the self driving cars right so that I can. I ask this question line I've written about this sort of like okay, it was like we got, have self driving cars were heading toward self driving cars like self driving Cars will destroy the last good blue collar job. America truck driving right now, really good livelihood for a lot of people- and it's like Why like do we have like okay yeah. These few telling me there's going to safety said that's what they say right, but internal. It's not entirely clear right. You know is that that that will work, and I you know what are the cut for the for the lives that are lost in the driving. I mean you know the car crashes be worth the social upheaval that comes from not having any work anymore, so I mean just like Yes bearing down on. Is your friend to your mom? Well, I know loved ones or yeah, but these have a calculus. I mean you know if, if it, if it tears down, if the, if wiping out these job, destroys democracy right
end up with you know. If that's really, though that doesn't seem possible, I did. I just think that what it's gonna do is gonna make travel safer, and then we have to figure out well these jobs that people you got right from traveling. How do we replace that with that in? yeah right well, one of the things we're gonna stay. We're gonna have to start teaching kids to be creative yeah, but in the midst of think there's going to places where, like the now we'll have so this I'm not arguing that we shouldn't have. No, I know you are you just being you just looking all the variables yet I'm asking like the kind you know we're moving so rapidly into this new world right that, like what was deciding for us who deciding that we want cars, you know we were told that we're going to get it, but like a lot of these things, there, you know there needs to be a little bit more dial orange democracy rights and having the stuff shoved down our throats and told like it's the best thing ever. You know I mean well, you know how 'bout cell towers their fucking everywhere. I mean there's no getting away from it right if you could,
I mean. Is there a community anywhere that is made? Some sort of an agreement will be no cell towers in our community yeah? No, but Our communities that have decided to like in the southwest that no lights, no lights at night. God yeah. I I think they want to preserve their nice guy. We should really have some sort of a day where everybody shuts everything off it sees the sky and see how create, is that we live in this weird state, or we're on an organic spaceship flying through infinity yeah, and we don't see right, because no, no, if you're, you know you when you do back packing or something you're in the back country. You know a couple days. You notice things changing like all the moves, not quite yeah, and I don't he looks up now on right because there's nothing to see you don't need, because the light right. I went to the cat observer or in the big island. Have you been I've never been on I don't get out. Nobody's gonna live close to a telescope. If I can, just you, don't even have to go all the way to the observatory. The visitor station, which is I I forget, where it's at, I think it's forty yard or or twelve or some that it's really high right, but there's they have
use lighting all the big island, so there's no light pollution. When you look up, it is just stunning right: you look up you leg, wow, the milky the right, most people have never seen the milky way. It's right there right, which I thought you have to have telescopes. You know it's right there and you feel like you're flying through space, and you have this. This really humble feeling that I think people get in. Different places. People get when they live next to mountains, they get it when they live next to the ocean by your We get it yeah if you could see space- and I think one of the things that is haunting the human race is the arrogance of humans, which is compounded by the fact that we can't see the because my that we only see what's in front of us. So this is the world that we live in. We put a roof over head. This is the box. I got my on moving ahead, because I want a new Lexus or what, you know whatever it is whatever material thing you try to possess. When this this unstoppable force, When you look up and you see the cosmos, it's like it's an undeniable reality and you
oh, ok! Ok! This is just a small thing. My Existence is just a small thing in this mystery, this giant mystery of what you know we just found out twenty years ago this Right I mean this is a giant mystery right, you're, looking up at one hundred billion stars in this game C alone, man. I couldn't you speak my language. I mean that you know the loss well and the myth that the the capital M word right. So I'm a scientist I'm an atheist, but I believe in mystery. I believe that I and at the core of our lives, is just wake up every day to work in here and I'm not. I'm going to be here until I die, and then I have no idea what the hell happens. So you know and, as you said, like mountain mountains in particular, you know I have a thing for mountains to the night sky. Is it reminds you? It opens that space up right, it's sort of like You know we can talk about it or I can talk about, but it's really it's an experience. It's experience that just shows you you're part of this. It's more than you here.
And you know, I think, right- a lot of the stupidity of the modern age I just had the consumerism, particularly all that matters to me is getting my next pile of shit. When you're out there you realize who cares? You know who freaking cares like you know for a moment. Even you just get the sense of that mystery and it can be transformative. You know I think what's happening is we've created. These civilizations of civilizations need to be lit up. The lights, keep us from seeing the universe, the universe so we're not humbled. Then we moved it's acquiring physical possessions, material objects, because we think that that's going to make Happy in our entire society is geared towards innovation, because but he wants the newest shiniest shift is that is that is what's leading us to artificial life and that all this shiny sh it is all innovation, and it's eventually going to move to this one singularity in that singularity is some new being being so. It's funny 'cause. You know one thing when I think about like
My argument, all these other civilizations, is that you know whether or not you make it. Maybe the evolutionary heritage you get right. So we you know of all from you know: both chimpanzees are beyond the chimpanzee ancestor and but no way ancestor. So we got like we fight were higher, aren't very hierarchical right, so we You know. We've got a lot of aggression this, but we also got the bonobo kind of like this. Have sex everything is cool, so we're like we're sort of. We got this weird mixed evolutionary baggage, and whether or not you can make it to the next side, with the existential challenge of triggering climate change is kind of like a what your evolution. What evolution gave you know 'cause you can imagine she's, like hive minds, you know if you came from termite and intelligent species might be a lot easier to deal with climate change like everybody, you know get on the ghetto get on the could get on the the course, but the most essentially is. Can you evolve new behaviors right? So on this track and it's leading us in a way that, as you said, it's like the shine, thing dangling in front of us is leading us off on this one track in the
please can we evolve new behaviors, which I actually I'm going to say this. I think they're part of it is spiritual. You know- or at least in my atheist way of like reconnecting with mystery. You see, like you, know, we're part of this and we need to respect it and you know what do you say spiritual do you mean so in my first book about science and religion, and you know I'm an atheist, but I'm not Richard Dawkins atheist. I think that whole idea is different, Richard Dawkins is what I would call a strident atheist and he's like. You know anybody who has spiritual. Any you know, any inclination towards mystery is an idiot you know and like it should this needs to do lsd right in asserting right or DMT or Psilocybin, or something that just give- you an undeniable experience of mystery right, exactly yeah. You know so I've been doing Zen meditation for like the last thirty years. You know and like you know, I've been staring at a wall for thirty years and the first thing you learn is it's really boring and then the second thing you learn is that their stuff, under your thoughts, you are not just the sheet you're thinking, you know
Just sort of you settle down and there's just like this open Nis, you know, and so um the spiritual parts like you said. You know when you're in the mountains right, so I love doing back country hiking and when you get up tree lined weird thing that happens when you're above tree line and just like you know, I got this panorama around you and that thing is you know the earth right on which we are part- and you know this is an interesting question about. Like can virtual reality do this, or do you actually need to get out there, and I think you need to get out there, but maybe virtual reality can give people the impetus to get out there. You know well it'll, be a different, I don't think, there's anything wrong with the virtual real. Experience of being in the mountains. I think it's probably pretty fucking cool, but it's not going to be in the mountains right something about being? The mountains is also there's a there's. A weird feeling, know if it's real but there's a weird feeling there's no signal out there 'cause it's in the place, well there's no cell signal. There's no there's a feeling you yeah when you're absolutely not connected, and then you see wildlife and the wildlife out
there, there are almost like these mystical beings like when you see a step out of the of the tree line and its c, like cats are yeah. That thing is been that way for yeah in years yeah. That's that species has not changed at all in a million years yeah, and this You know we shot the signal. It's it's really. The thing is what for me, it's like when I get far enough back, that I noticed just not another human being right. You know this is like when I leave. This exact is going to still be happening like it doesn't give a shit about you and it's it's moving along and, as you said, it's been moving this way for millions of years and you just really it's like and that's why you know part of the thing I'm saying with the book. Is that like look if we trigger climate change, that's just the earth way of creating the next set. You know it used us to create climate now move on to something else that the earth does it's just this animate power. You know and when you're out there you feel and you know the thing that I think we need to do is sort of re establish our connection to that were part of that were
from that we're not evil were not bad. We need to reintegrate our cell, in a way that we still get our civilization, but you know connect. I mean so. Yes, why spiritual? Because when we connect to that mystery, then we're in a better place to make the right decision understand with the decisions are, if not were like. Oh, we gotta save the polar bears and we're not looking at no, no, it's the biosphere is a whole that we have to understand. Well, I'm rating out of ego and ideology, and not out of rational thought right with all the information, our disposal and really verifying that information right, standing, what's correct, what's not correct right, whether or not to bias behind it or scientific research that was funded by people that have a vested interest in it. Leaning one way or the other. All that stuff is very, very slippery and it's very dangerous and when you find out that studies have been influenced by special interest oops or who you know lobbyists or whatever, and that they feel like specially so pharmaceutical studies, the creepiest with eight they can. A series of studies and only
One of them show some sort of a positive impact for whatever weird reason and that's the one they use yeah and they don't have to publish the fact. They ran a hundred yeah in studies right right. Well, no, not trying to teach people. I'm sorry go ahead data, You know science, but I think the most important thing that people need to understand about science is not so much sciences results, but how science works. You know because it does work right. That's why we have all this stuff and so so so they can distinguish so you know I say that science is three things: it's spitballs super tankers and stadiums right. You know the problem with uh who will be like the latest study, shows the color red you know will make you have better sex like what are you talking about lenses, delay, the study that can get you to click on that. Usa. Today are now right, because the media reports is if this was science like every day a whole bunch of new articles come out. You know I write scientific articles, that's the currency of my profession, but like one study is just like it's a spitball right. It's like basically we're shooting spitballs at each other, but sciences ' a super tanker right. You know where, like
It takes seven miles to turn a super tanker around. That's what really science is the things that we think we don't deeply understand in science is like this super tanker and people are shooting spitballs at the papers. Every and if you get enough spitballs on one side of the you know the prow or whatever it starts to turn it right. Science will turn slowly. If enough of the spitballs balls are lined up so people No, it's not about the single study it's about. Have there been three hundred studies over the last thirty years. That say the same thing so, like you know, the coffee stuff coffee is good. Coffee is bad. Clearly, The fact that we keep getting both answers means we don't know, that's all we don't know. Yet it's just not clear climate change one thousand eight hundred and thirty one hundred years of the same results. Yeah. We got that you know well, there's always a problem with biotin that you're not taking into account how nutrients interact with other foods or different foods interact with foods different, I mean you know when you
coffee is bad. Ok, was it bad when you're smoking cigarettes are bad when you're eating Grass FED meat or bad when you're on a vegan diet? When is it bad right now? Who are these people and what they put in their system and how much sugar they taking in how much sodium? And you know, what's the current levels. Their blood did you test them for b12 deficiencies and all these different things, like that's the real problem with any dia. Very studies? They don't take into account the extremely varied diet in the complexity of the system. Right so that's I mean so I would tell people that, like you know, it comes to like health sciences, anything in general about human beings. Look this stuff is really complex. And, as said, there's one thousand different things that can interact. So you gotta, really. That stuff with a grain of salt like ok, the smoking cause cancer yeah got that you know, but like yes, coffee, good or bad, we just the studies, aren't there yet you know that's different from climate change or you know, gravity. You know, or is the earth round, yeah yeah? Those are those are stupid
So, while I'm listen man, thank you very much for being here. It was really good to talk to you is fun. Do you have an audio book out yeah? There is an audio. Please did you read it? I have not we we did. I read the did you read the words that are in the audiobook version? Did you were you narrating it? No, you weren't. Now I didn't God I'm sorry that is, do that another number. You really did a talking about man today, I've been really into it. I hate that when I really when I buy audio books- and I know that the guy who's reading, it doesn't have a I'm single bone in invested in this idea that he's he's just repeating the words I'm sure. Whoever did it was like you know, totally channeling. I must have felt in the astral plane. Look better. If you read it man, I should let you do it yeah? Why the fuck? Did they? Let you don't know it is not that much for it. No, I don't. Even know that part of the you know, I didn't understand, partitioning, tell people the title again light of the stars, alien worlds and the fate of the earth.
Does your twitter is your twitter for why, for 'cause, that's the only one that everything else was taken. So I was just going to come up with ok six years ago, when I got an Adam Frank Foreign, do you have an instagram as well know? Now I have Facebook author page an website website is Adam Frank Science? I think we just Google Adam Frank. Thank you. I'm really appreciate it was so much fun. It's really fun Thank you, everybody for tuning into the show pre she ate the flag out of you and thanks to our sponsors. Thank you too blue apron. You can get your first three meals for free and this week's menu when you go to Blueapron dot com, Slash Rogan, that's Blueapron, dot, com forward, Slash Rogan. To get your first three, meals for free blue apron, a better way to cook
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Appreciate the fuc, adding people and I hope you enjoy the show Papa
Transcript generated on 2019-10-29.