« The Joe Rogan Experience

#1191 - Peter Boghossian & James Lindsay

2018-10-30
Peter Boghossian is a philosophy instructor, activist, author, speaker, and atheism advocate. He is a full-time faculty member at Portland State University. James Lindsay has a Ph.D. in mathematics and a background in physics and is also the author of three books.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Netflix you beautiful bastards, Joey, Diaz specials out right now you Fuchs and even though Joey talk shit about it, it's fucking hilarious, he's the goat. In my opinion, that's the funniest guy. That's ever lived, I've seen uh comedians are seen. Kenison live. I seen Bill Hicks live. I had the pleasure of working with Richard. prior. I worked with dice clay. Joe is the best. It's just my opinion. You could have yours that's my opinion. That's my favorite! um and go see him live 'cause he's he's upset. He was upset at his performance, so he's Set it up a notch, even further uh, that's out right now, my specials out right now too, it's called strange times is also on Netflix. I think it's the best one I've ever done work really hard for it and it's out right now, so Joey Diaz is the degenerate It's on right now and mines out right now. Well, mine started the beginning of the month and his just yesterday.
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are Peter Bagozzi and he's been on the podcast. Before he's a professor of philosophy at Portland, state, university and James Lindsay, who you to be in academia and now he runs own business and but they did something hilarious. They published a bunch of fake journal entries to academic journals of really preposterous entries, really preposterous subjects, and I don't want to say anymore: I'm just let us get into the podcast, but I really enjoyed it. It was hilarious. It was informative, a little disturbing because the subject- it's just so crazy that academic journals are this goofy, but these guys are not and they are too brilliant men. So please give it up for James Lindsay
and Peter because the Joe Rogan experience I've already know countdown Jimmy Radical, radical, MS, but Cozy and plug it back in again script to be here, thank Mister, Lindsey, good to change door jamb depending upon preferences. That's where I go with Jim Jefferies. Well, gentlemen- and there was another person that you did this with this whole project Helen Pluck rose from England shout out to Helen from England. She back across the palm trees across the pond, she's, so fish and chips and cheese making tea in manage the aerial magazine. It's excellent, alright will shout out to her as well explain what you guys did and what's so significant about it, because when I first read it, my
first inclination is that I had two reactions. One was a huge laugh. I laughed really hard and then I said, thank God. So many expose this yeah. So tell me, tell me what you guys did him go for it yeah so over? Let's explain who you guys are what okay. My background is in mathematics. I bailed out in academia in two thousand ten, though, because of kind of see the writing on the wall, and so now I am a renegade gender scholar and I write nonsense about genital that's primarily. Why do I mean our manager business at home, so I gotta academia, yeah, I'm uh, uh, teach philosophy of Portland State University and I met Jim years ago. We collaborated and we've written a number of things over the and at some point it just came to be. We had to do something about this. It was just too ridiculous and it was translating into the real world, and so we
lab rated- and here we are, let's explain what you did and what was ridiculous. What we're talking about what was ridiculous is. There is many fields of studies that you can get legitimate degrees and that are out. Absolutely preposterous right, literally filled with nonsense, taught by nonsense. People who live in these nonsense bubbles, and then they give these degrees, these people go out in the real world actually and they infect things they they're ridiculousness infect certain is particularly tech. Industry busy This is like you see it in the morning, James Damore yeah. Well, it's explain what you guys did yeah, so we started about a year. I guess you're in one slash two ago now is last summer we started writing a bunch of academic papers for the journals that represent these fields, and so everybody understands what gimmick paper is getting out of the gate,
doesn't like an op ed that you dash offer like Washington, Post or some magazine or whatever. This is a thing like academics work their careers to write one or two of these a year, and so there really hard to write they're supposed to be hard to get published. So twenty of them in ten months and seven of those got accepted for were actually published, and
then we got lost or more yeah. We got busted in these for more on track, maybe five or six more. What I got and what's the difference in getting accepted in getting published, so the process with everything I can to me is really slow and a lot of people don't know this, so you send off this article. The editor looks at it and the editor either gives it the thumbs up or thumbs down. If they give the thumbs up, it goes off to peer reviewers and that process takes months and often as long as I would one paper that was eight months under peer review. So the reviewers look at it. They try to figure out if the arguments are good to try to figure out. If the research is good, they value eight that they have extensive comments. They send it back to you, then you have to revise it according to whatever they say make it better is what's supposed to happen, they made ours crazier, and so
then they did every single time. We took the feedback and made the papers just the most extreme thing, most extreme things, and so then you send him back so now, you're, probably three four months in just the review process, not to the writing, which should also take months and then the editor, will either send it back to the reviewer's to see if it was good enough or they'll just evaluate it themselves, depending on where it stands, and then they'll make a decision as to whether or not to accept it or reject it or ask for more revisions and then when they accept it, that means the journals ready to publish it. But then the publishing process requires all the typesetting proofing, all the stuff that goes into making it professional for an academic journal and that can take and publishing is the coin of the realm like that's it. So the ideal is one paper every year in the humanities. Broadly, so if you,
how you could insure yourself. That's how you get tenure, which is a job for life. That's how you get to teach people these ideas who then, as you said, go out into the work force. You know five six years later and in in fact everybody with total silliness, so the it's, the go old standard peer review. So we saw a truck this problem. Can we tell people some of the titles of these charter 'cause right now like what the hell these guys talking. So we had article the one they got. The most press was about dog humping in Portland, or it was called. How did it go? Was it called queer performativity and was a rape culture, rape, culture and queer performativity and uh parks in Portland? Oregon we claim to have examined under a fake name, is also grams performative oh yeah yeah they have their own lingo their own. You know, but it's not a word in the english language performativity I mean in the academic english language, not in common parlance, but that's like the whole thing
huge right. This goes back a long way. That's Judith Butler's whole thing: said genders you didn't Butler Judith Butler is probably the most influential feminist scholar, their gender scholar. Actually I should say that that's been in maybe the last thirty years, she's she's big time, and so she had this whole thing that gender is performing to if it's something you perform, it's not something that something to do with biology did article showing their reactions to rape, culture and queer performativity at urban dog parks in Portland, or why is it retracted, This is because they realize bogus warehousing them yeah. We reactions to rape, culture in query performance. We claim to have closely examined the genitals of just under just under ten thousand dogs and then interrogated their owners as to their sexual annotation. So we check out the dogs, nuts and then said. Excuse me, sir, are you gay and you ask them if they gendered their dogs get well? We made up these
totally insane. You know dogs, humping incident, it's in how they beat female dog but they didn't beat male dogs. So that's one of the papers that we made the other paper. That will this one also, they had the whole thing like if a male dog humps another male dog, especially men, would freak out and break it up. Yeah. Stop that, because that's the queer performativity, yeah, but then, if a male dog hump the female dog, they really get her girl get her better get on so you're, basically raging against hetero norm attic exactly correct. We told them exactly what they wanted to hear and we gave them your statistics to fuel what they already wanted to believe yeah. We started off with the idea that what we wanted to get to was a conclusion and we made up all the crap in between yeah it. But, in conclusion, was feminism should train men the way we train dogs so that we can rape, culture, you know, put him on leashes. You know that's right in the paper. It's all there. Unfortunately, we cannot put manta leashes, it's not politically feasible to put men on leashes. He has wrote that,
yeah! I think their leashes when they miss behave in this paper, didn't just get published. The journal said that this was exemplary. scholarship and gave it an award. Has one of the this is one of the best pieces. It's this year is the 25th anniversary. So this journal's been doing this for twenty five years and it's a 25th anniversary, so they're picking out the paper itself over a year and putting him prior to place in some some issue of the journal and ours is going to be the seventh issues, so it either is greater. It's not great. So it's there is greater. It's not great like why they're attracting it because they know we are bogus. So what You were right. Well, it's like a broken clock. Yeah clocks broken, but it is actually one thousand two hundred o'clock so so
hey? We claim its way in correctly that we fabricated statistics, but we we run other papers for cough. One was fat body building, so they claim that there should be a category introduced in traditional Bodybuilding called FAT Bodybuilding where people come and display their fat. Before the audience, and we didn't manufacture any statistic. For that and they love that they thought it. One line in that paper was a fat body is a built body there weren't that reviewer is like. I wholeheartedly agree or something like that, and then we wrote other papers like to Hypatia. We published it got accepted, not published, but that one we claim that it's unacceptable. It's not it's unethical to make fun of anything to do with social justice right, and so, if you want to make fun of things that don't have anything with social justice, that's good! So if we wanted to make fun of men, that's great, if you want to make fun of white people, that's great. If you want to make fun of anything to do with social justice, that's a problem
We said that you know S park is a huge problem. The Simpsons is huge problem. We went into talking about how Stephen Colbert and Jon Stewart had the right idea, but then the journal was like, but there straight white male, so you have to Nuans around that to make it clear that their position is white men even though they are on the side of social justice. It's not quite good enough. You know. Oh alright, published that the post their published. That was that was that one called that one was called when jokes on you and we made. We wrote it so that they would think the joke is on us, because we cited our own work in there, but the joke was actually on them for publishing it. Now yeah yeah yeah this, it's, so it's so funny how racist you can be as long as you're racist against white people, that's what we is that, as long as you are going up the river against privileged than you not really just get away with some nasty yeah and you can generalize like totally
gross generalizations, absolutely not treat people as individuals. Absolutely it's very strange. It's very strange that this is the left. You know I was a kid in San Francisco in the 1970s we lived in, you know like there was the hippie times and that's I have there from age seven to eleven and it kind of formed a lot of my opinions about people like that who gives a shit part of my my appreciation for any group whatever it is, whether it's race or gender or sexual orientation- and I just understand it from either way. I'd certainly don't understand it from a racist perspective, but I really don't understand it from racism. That's condoned because it's racism against eight people, no yeah! This is the left. This is that the these are. These are the people that are preaching against hate, and these are the people
it used to be the people that were supposedly so open minded and so open to ideas and now they're, trying to stifle creativity and stifled. Benton stifle, stifle anything that doesn't fit inside that very narrow paradigm. That they're trying to push it's very strange. Now they co opted the Silver Rights Movement, the good name of the civil rights movement. This is kind of the brand that they ride on. You know: they're fighting against racism, they're fighting against sexism, misogyny etc, and the thing is, is that's not really what's going on here, they've actually taped in to this day, to throw around the term this post modern notion that everything in society has to do with power dynamics and the power dynamics have to be understood in terms of groups and how those groups have traditionally held power and exercise power, and so immediately. It becomes stuck in this idea that all about this group or that group and how they relate to one another- and I don't mean like hey- let's get along relate- I mean like white People- are imagined,
please be over black people in there, for you know, there's always natural power dynamic of of of oppressed- and this is nothing came straight out of this weird postmodern philosophy. Where you saw these dissatisfied french philosophers in the sixties. You know it all in the store all the stuff you're talking about was going down. They saw all this stuff and they said wow. You know okay, power dynamics of the thing because of it. So I should go back a step. The the postmodern philosophers like Foucault and all it's got all hooked up on power because they were dissatisfied with seeing what they called grand narratives: Christianity, capitalism, Marxism, there's all these huge. You know, explanations for how the world works and said you know, they're not were,
Looking look how bad communism failed. Look, how there's so much bulshit coming out of this or that from religion. It's not working! We need to just get rid of all of it. We're going to deconstruct this we're going to break it down to its power dynamics and then we're going to look at it in terms of who has met sure hood over who's oppressing what were his dominance and it's just kind of grown. It got picked up in the in the academic culture in the 1960s. That's how old this stuff is and it took this huge turn in the nineteen nineties and get really vicious and that's where it really got. You know that's when it turned intersectional. Actually, that was during the political, correct days: that's that's when the political, correct thing kind blew up yeah all when stuff this coming out, so that so that would have been late. 1980S is really when all of this political correctness, stuff started coming out of the academy and then a few years later you see it coming all over politics, which typically, what happens is starts in the academy. A few years later it leaks into the
right and politics or media or the tech sector. Now, whatever happens to be this stifling of creativity, is the the most disturbing part about it like this that, like the the agreement that South Park in the Simpson our real problem, it's so bizarre because, like here's, the thing if they missed the mark- and it's not funny- it won't work and then it will be a bad show and no one would like it. But if it's funny there to be something about it, that people find ironic satirical, there has to be something about it that people are enjoying. It has to point to some truth, the denial of this and instead, like the saying oh, it's white males that are causing this problem and you shouldn't attack this that or you know, there's subjects that are off limits and social justice should never be attacked like to agree to that. It's, so it's so preposterous. This is life we're talking about yeah. This is literally a nuans of life, all the various strain,
these things in the spectrum of human behavior and all the things you encounter in life and to segment in limit. What is an is not what off limits. It's not off limits based on race, based on things that a person can't control at all you're just born white. So if your born white born in a presser, you born victimizer and if you're, a white male you're, a fucking piece of shit, and you can say that white hetero male in particular- god I mean I've, seen so many tweets from people. That means so many virtue signalling tweets. But what am I favorite ones is feminist, who said all White white straight men, trash and less proven otherwise, yeah, that's the thing right! All of us all of us there's one hundred and fifty million of us I mean give- are take. You know how many gay folks are trash trash
no problem progress proven otherwise improve your not right. I do that. Does that would be an ally you have to be in our own over they? They ask this problem. The ties alley shipped to you see this power dynamics once you say: hey, I'm an ally. Now, you've made it so the you have like a shield where people can't call you a white supremacist anymore and you are acting on behalf of other people and you know you're speaking with them, so you now have assumed power that was reproducing the same power dynamics that wasn't mine, Comp, APR paper that rewrote my income. Tax rate was about allyship and they were like you didn't problematize allyship yeah. We had two of 'em that did mine comp, one of 'em we just more or less replaced. Whites would replace Jews with white men and you would literally took Mein Kampf the actual words from my computer and put it in this paper an replaced. The word Jews with the word white men and they accepted well. We had two papers that did mine company had two versions so that one did not get exactly what it does with the quotes that you guys used. I mean so
so that one what we did was we took the whole document on online and we just search the word Jew and we just started picking sentences and paragraphs. So what was it that at the end, it was something like if we combat whiteness, it's going to be the funeral wreath for mankind that straight out of my account. Now they didn't expect yet they didn't. They didn't accept that paper, though, because that paper turns out was written from the perspective of a white lesbian who hated her own whiteness, and they said that it was positioning her as a good white and because she's making herself out good way again: allyship isn't as all it's cracked up to be. She, you know sing a problem, she should have really been forwarding the ideas of the black scholars that she read
way more and not talking about herself so much, even though it was a paper designed to be talking about it, because that was what Hitler did. So that's what we had to do now. The other mine comp paper was about feminism and what we did was we took the chapter chapter. Twelve, we took the chapter where he says this is why we should have the Nazi Party and what is expected of people who are going to be part of it, and we took out our movement or party you didn't call it a Nazi party in the chapter, but everywhere he's like our movement took that output in intersectional, feminism, and then modify the words and added theory around it, so that it would fly and theory. I love that word theory. I love when feminist theory, I love when they throw that around like what are you saying but you're saying things like once you say that you're you're good, like you said you can say something calculus and then say feminist theory and like oh, it's in feminist,
yeah, that's the thing right is so much of the stuff they come up with. Let me throw him in olive branch like someone to the stuff they come up with is a creative idea. Maybe there's something to some of this stuff right. But what they're putting forward is hypothesis and then they're treating his conclusions so they're putting this idea. I saw one on twitter today. It was something like this about s park. It's been laundering racism into society and making ever be comfortable with racism, and that's why everything so racist and people are shooting Jews is because S park. Normal but they're, treating it as a conclusion, but that's a hypothesis right, so we could test that it's conceivable, but you could actually try to parse out what variables need to be controlled, see. You know S park came out and started doing these themes. What how does it track statisticians can do kind of amazing things with that stuff, but they're not doing that they're, not testing it and then test sing it right there concluding it and then using theory to do so and there- no video, no it's even bigger than that 'cause. Why don't they test it? Well, if they tested it,
and this is I'm not making this shut up. You won't believe me, but this is true if they tested it in the test showed that their hypothesis was wrong. They would say that the test was right, but the test is condoning racism and that's why it didn't give him the desired result. How would you test something like this? I mean I'm, not a statistician. I actually mathematician, but I'm not a statistician, two different things. So I'm not exactly sure how you would test that but conceivably, you could gather data survey data and see how attitudes have changed. Maybe you could track kinds of articles, so events that are coming out. You could kind of pair that up with what's been one on South Park who are self parking track out with attitudes and yeah. You look and there's no effort to do this or like South Park, presents these ideas, which they then cherry, pick because there's other ideas that they don't talk about. That are, you know, point the other direction. These ideas are problematic. That's the big word theoretical that's a problem. Why? Because they I'm not joking. They literally believe that use of language creates the power dynamics that define society so South Park using
language and imagery that creates a power dynamic. That makes people more comfortable being racist boom theory done Alright, no test needed know even attempt test. Then if the test happened, the test it be racist unless it confirm the hypothesis, so they start with an agenda and then mention the word laundry, which could your former guest Breton Heather talked about idea laundering. I think that's. Phyllis yeah, yeah yeah. So what that's? What really what's going on here is fording these hypotheses they treat they don't treat them as I prophecies, and then they write up a paper paper like we're saying is the absolute gold standard of academic work. They send the paper off the reviewers and
our cases made our papers. Crazier every single time, so they push it further into the ideology or the madness. How does a review or do something like that? What what input to the world to have? They said, for example, that we should problem Matiz ally ship if we're gonna. If we want to paper published we've got a problem. Has Alisher love that word problem a tie, everything everything problem, the ties, everything dog parks, problem yeah! The problem is, I literally anything can be problem. A tie and looked at through a feminist leads everything everything the whole world to that's what we call a grievance studies, revenge! Isn't there they're massively? Okay, so that, but to do the job, the home, all the transfer will be yeah the Trans paper. So we wrote this paper saying that straight men are generally transphobic, meaning in particular the they're kind of knee sh, we're definition that you see on the internet active, sometimes they aren't interested in having sex with trans people who have penises trans women have a penis in particular and so we said well, that's the kind of transphobia and clearly the
and that they might be transferred because because they don't practice putting things in their butts, so if they start putting stuff up their butts in particular, we called the paper Dill DOE's. So you can imagine what we were saying that you put up. The whole paper was called Dill DOE. That was, that was a nickname. We gave it. The paper was called going into the back door, really yeah, really going in through the back door. We know there's a lot of technical words that one get published, that you can see it online. You can see all so. We argued that if straight men just pen rated themselves and had their girlfriends peg them through exposure therapy. You know you start small and then work your way up. You can remediate. Transphobia will make it less transphobic, so self penetrating or having your girlfriend peg you, you can be less hands full book- and he thought the off of eight interviews, really thirteen interviews, but with men, and I say really: eight hundred and thirteen
thirteen interviews documented, but five hundred am with gay people, not even straight people, so they don't really apply. So then we have these eight interviews with man. We made one of them, a conservative and he's just so we could just put in, like you know, crazy things that a conservative might say about this and they were like. Why don't why? Weren't there conservatives participating. So I was like well I'm going to run with this, and I was I wrote this whole thing. We invited six conservatives to participate and only accepted and to kind of summarize why, in the words- and this is in the paper in the is one. I don't want to be a part of some stupid, liberal study about shoving things up your butt what's that right, right right- oh my god, so we were, it is retracted, article yeah going into back door right there. Oh, my god, now did they contact you after they were tracked your article, they go ahead. You guys are fucking assholes
part time. We spent hours reviewing your papers. We got a couple of pretty bitter response. But mostly know the mostly they're kind of put their head in the sand and avoided talking to us that what I was saying before, The show started that I read one article that was really diminishing the impact of what you guys have done. Saying like what it's not a big deal. You know wrong. They were trying to It seem as if what you guys had written was just a prank that's not what absolutely false a lot of papers that seem like parody that make it through that. You guys aren't writing. Oh yeah pull up, one about how hot wings and like there's a tv, show spicy ones or something like that about hot wings. Oh yeah, yeah, the Youtube show yeah, so they had a whole ones, hot ones. That's what it was I had a whole there's a paper out there about that show, and it's all about how you know hot sauce has everything to do,
with masculinity and being manly- and they didn't have enough women on the show, because it's sexist in the hot hot sauce, I think, was access part, and it has all these bizarre conclusion I did that in the paper we wrote about hooters we put in a part that there is masculinity contest of eating the who can eat more hot wings and then they'd say. Oh eight hundred and twenty hot wings ask out the Hooters girl professor eating show hot ones is problem. I see where automatic this ally yeah that's a real paper right, so we cited the paper. It's real. There are thousands of papers like this. This is big. Thank you to reduce gender and celebrity on hot one, and so, as a professor, he probably teaches this stuff down students right so now, everything's problem the ties- and this is what credentials him you get. Seven in general, you guys and only the says, the women years yeah. She wrote it behooves, the other one Tricia at the end, who wrote that introduction?
Oh, it's the difference. There's two people there, which it commentary is it is it an article about the article should yeah, that's probably what's going on is commentary and criticism yeah. This is, it looks like I mean I haven't read this specifically but wait a minute. Listen to the first statement. Food media have been recognized as cultural artifacts that reference culturally and historically specific ideals of gender, drawing on the simultaneously mundane, innomed qualities of food as a medium for interrogating interrogate the ideas about feminism, an identity performance was telling you shut the fudge. This is their man. This is like every time we talk about. This is such unbelief, evil Horsh it. Now. This person is teaching at Central Michigan University yeah. This is for real. This is real. so there is now an ever expanding group of these folks. They teach
Do you want to read more of it? It's funny commentary and criticism section. The authors introduce a diverse sample of case studies that demo the emergence of feminist ideas in and through food media. Oh yeah man, the fuckery, don't really worried about that. Get a job, get a real job, go out there and work do so thing that someone wants to pay for something a valid gagement with hot sauce, and this is so crazy right, and this is what they're teaching our kids racial assumptions inherent to post feminist food culture. Oh yeah, I was going to write a paper about how cornbread is being gentrified and that's why I will never get over racism. 'cause like people are making like pumpkin spice cornbread. I tweeted the other day that about some uh GAD Saad tweet it and I retweeted it
about some woman she's taking back bone broth. So I saw that yeah, that's good. What in the fuck? Are you talking about people in cooking bone broth for thousands of years, thousands of years a way of getting nutrients from the food you problematized it look at this. Queer woman of color wants to decolonize bone broth. Stop appropriating my culture said dad said he's awesome that is no fucking preposterous. A queer woman of color is what I'm saying man there's a thousand papers like this out there for everyone. We wrote yeah one thousand of 'em that you might as well written. Well, you couldn't tell if we did or did That's part of things people can't differentiate. What we've done not only can they not differentiate, they give us an award, so they can't differentiate it from this. After Charlie out there in the stuff. That's already out there is polluting peoples minds. Now you guys,
you guys. At least you used to work in academia. You work in academia like how your peers, treating this. you know, people badly there are well PETE has is going to have a lot to say about that. I think, but for Maine, I've had two from academic people. I've had two kinds of responses, but them over but some of those are like. Oh you guys and then the overwhelm Of them are the same thing over and over and over again, and I mean a lot of people. Thank you so much for doing this, but I can't, don't, tell anybody. I just keep trying to get a job I'm up for ten year. I can't talk. Thank you. This needs to go everywhere. It's everywhere. You can't proceed through academia now and less you bow to this stuff. Ten years sounds like tyranny. It did. The whole thing sounds preposterous that you can keep a job for life. Well, the idea was supposed to be that you work
grass off for a few years and then you it was supposed to be to defend academic freedom. So you get tenure, then you can go forth and put out some crazy ideas really like dig into some stuff and they can't fire you for. Coming up with maybe weird stuff, and then people would argue about it, but now it's kind of become the situation where people get in this they get in their job and then can't get rid of 'em right right right yeah. What is there a way to fire people? Well if they do something like sexual harassment and yeah, that you can find a way around the ten year thing? So what is it like for you? You are actually super uncomfortable people upset at you, yeah I'd, say: they're, enraged, you know I mean the only. The only thing I can think of is like, if you taught it a christian school and then you went in and took videos and post them on Youtube of defecating in the Bible and then just walked into the school. So I think
it's kind of similar in that they they have bought hook, line and sinker into UG, trigger warning, safe spaces, diversity initiatives. There are no, no questioning, there's an in it's something. For me. That makes me deeply uncomfortable when my students can ask questions when when they they can't they're they're, just uncomfortable to voice their opinions about things, and I think that that it people to say the least. A lot of people are enraged me. But exactly what Jim said some people will come in like oh. Thank you so much like I know, but again I can't be public about what is the ratio I mean for me. It's like ninety five percent people who are really happy. It, happened and can't let it be known, but I'm not you know, facing these people everyday yeah. Well, you know, through the videos from evergreen state
You can see Brett Weinstein's interactions with not just students, but also some of the professors that were there that some of these preposterous people that he had to work with that are buying in hook line and sinker to the stuff and they live in these insulated world. Sadly, and they just they, they create these people that also want to stay inside these insulated worlds and then just sort of stew. In these ideas, and then again go out into the real world and they think they're, better people as a result, yeah right. So that's a big trick, they're doing the good work yeah so like question this may be to look at it and say: oh you know that kind of looks like bullshit, but I don't a lot of these guys are left, leaning, people or outright leftists a lot of 'em. Do the right thing right: yeah? They really do these people really care about progressive agendas.
You know getting over any lingering discrimination, that's going on racism, sexism, etc. They really want to do the right thing good for them right, that's what we want, but they actually have to question or like run county. You think that, like is a river of morality running through them through their mind, they actually have to go upstream a little bit and that's hard. It feels weird, you have to say, wait a minute. Maybe this scholarship, maybe this stuff isn't the best way to do it. But then the first thought you have is well. These guys are these people in these disciplines, grievance studies are, are fighting racism. So if I go against them, then I'm going against the people fighting racism, so maybe I'm helping racism and that's what we keep. If we get any criticism, that's what always is you're helping racist you're, a tool of the right, etc, etc, etc. You're, racist or we are out, racists yeah outright racist, an accused of being all right disagree with any of this stuff. Anyway, I get accused of being alt right. All
time. I'd lean so far left universal Health care, universal basic income, free schooling. I think I think education should be free. I think we should pay for, I believe in a lot, socialist ideas, hopefully, but I'm right wing right because I make fun of people that want to study problem ization of dogs, fucking yeah, I mean this is really where it is. That's where it is. If you look at like whether I support gay rights, women's rights, I'm uh, I'm all yours, all of it, I'm on board. With all that shit. Take more my taxes. I think I can afford to pay more if I really believe that people are going to get real healthcare and real education where the same be very happy very happy. If I but it was all being appropriated in used correctly Phuc yeah. Let's make the world a better place So that's the thing right is, if all this scholarship that they were doing on race and gender- that's important stuff right. So, if they're doing that right, why
I wouldn't want to be behind it right, but they're not doing it right. How do I know 'cause I made up papers about dog hump Ingin made up the conclusion before I wrote the paper and then boom, publish it and give it an award. If I can start with the conclusion and then work backwards, conclusion that I'm not doing rigorous scholarship, I'm making shut up well also. There's no room for dissent and they're, not absolutely not zero, and in academia, you can't even have to teach whatever the moral orthodoxy is. So just imagine this going into university. trying to your young, mind, you're young kid and I'm deeply concerned about these kids are going and they never hear the other side of an issue about immigration. They never hear the other state, so they become brittle overtime. So when they hear it they just they don't know. What to do there shocked by Professors are terrified that they'll get a complaint. They'll have to go to the Diversity board. I've been told that I'm not allowed to render my opinion about protected classes. When I had ethics and I teach ethics, I don't teach a contact
class yeah check two classes. I've also that's a great question that thank you for asking. I've asked for a definition of protected classes, a list of protected classes. I didn't receive any. I like you can be criticised yet I cannot. I cannot author for it yet yeah. I cannot offer this under no, no, no, no, no so so yeah. I was up on the Tieline violation, I'm not up for a violation, Tieline violation, my that is a title. Nine violin Highline violation is serious. It's federal discrimination, lawn universities, yeah yeah yeah. Would you do I can't talk about it? Slow cancel it, but, but it among the other things that came out in that meeting, where not allowed to render my opinion about a protected class, and so, for example, I and so homosexuals I know, are covered under protected classes. You can have an opinion on homosexual people I have an opinion, but I can't what, if it's a positive opinion. Well, so
example that was used in class was evidently evidently I made a comment. So let's take a step back this is an ethics class talking about how sexual choice does not, fall into the realm of morality. So if a guy is gay and he likes another guy. That's just not a moral thing, that's just preference or it's just what is like a matter of taste sure and some don't for the whole thing. But someone in so and in the class said well, you know you shouldn't have taste or something you shouldn't have. I can't the exact frame, because I'm getting this third hand from the from my violation. So. My tron came to someone else. Somebody said in class. Well what about this, and I I made the comment. I said everybody He has something everybody has a preference like. You can't say that no one had preference, it would be as if it was because, if I said well, you know I don't want
date, someone who is four hundred, so that comment then got turned into something when they called somebody else in the office of diversity. Inclusion called someone else in, and it was that I was rendering my opinion about people who are four hundred pounds when my what I was doing is saying that homosexuality itself there's no there's no reason to give that it. It's not a moral thing, but people lump it in. But the main point of this whole thing is that we situations in which professors can't talk about protected classes, students raid to ask questions, everybody's walking on egg shells and the students aren't learning and phrases are taken out of context phrases taking out of context. Now, if you want to place to go to celebrate whatever the reigning world orthodoxy is in, the university is a great place for you. Did you explain? I mean what you meant by saying that you like saying you don't want to date, people over four hundred pounds. Did you explain the content
most of the use of she wasn't interested in the context of it and it turned out. He didn't even say he doesn't want to date. People over, for he said it has, is exactly as I phrased it, a hypothetical right right. So there are entire thing. If you had said. Maybe I don't like, I don't want to date, people over seven feet tall. Maybe you could have got away with that. I don't think people over seven feet. Tall are protected class right. You could have got away with that, even though it's still basically the same thing, it's a preference issue, so I meant this to one of my colleagues- and he said to me all you that you can't say that you should never have said that, and I said really, why said? Well, you should have said well. Well I don't like dating blue or green people. I'm like why this is the things they were. Not blue, green people who were stacking, resonate coming around man and then they become a protected class, and then someone goes back
sure, looks at what you said ten years ago about Blue agreed. So that's how you get fired and that's how that works. If you look at all this stuff and coming out about victimhood culture and how it propagates and how it develops- and that's one of the things that's called competitive victimhood, you could call it petitive competitive. That's the formal term of people who study, love that that's wonderful. When people are fighting over who's, the bigger victim. Would you see it all the time? It's like you see people in society, it's like all the black lives matter. People go nuts and then all of a sudden, the white supremacists are out and they're like white people. Have it hard to the second second somebody here is all black people have a hard somebody's gonna be like white people have a hard to that's competitive victimhood. Then, when you have like a moral economy, if you will, where you can kind of cash in an gained status or gain access to speaking or whatever it happens, to be by holding a certain status of victimhood or grievance, then you're going to find people competing to find ways to get that for them. So,
yes right, everybody is going to go. I mean you have the infrastructure there, everybody's going to go after trying to maximize their own utility within that yeah. So over seven feet tall aren't a protected class yet, but the second they realized that they might be able to cash in on it. Then you might victimhood grievance. It's been also called grievance jockeying. I think, since you called it the oppression Olympics, yep yeah, it's wonderful really is if you look at the root, so here's the thing that we thought about extensively. If you look at the root, where is this stuff coming from all of this stuff is coming from these uh ends of knowledge, their bodies of literature, their peer reviewed and that's the ideal laundering thing yeah, which yeah all of that stuff is coming from from this in. If you want to make, if you want to get back to construct of politics, to get back to people having conversations and that's the thing like that,
I think one of the reasons that your show is been so successful. Is it's uh? It's a combination of authenticity with you can have we're totally willing to have conversations with no holds barred right. You can have that in the academy. So people need to go to you to hear these thought and to wrestle with ideas and to engage it's just if you can do you can't really do it anywhere else other than a podcast? Well, you can't do it in the academy, but you can't even do it on the today show they fired making character right. One asking: why is black face race right, which is a stupid question? No doubt he's not a bright woman in that regard socially right, so very clumsy, clunky thing to say, but they just fired fire. It said what they should have done was brought in black scholars,
black intellectuals for a week just about King Griller exactly and that would have been amazing television, but that attitude that you have is not what they have. so they want to punish the transgression right today, I think they just want to stop hemorrhaging and I think they didn't like her anyway. I mean they were the word. Is they really didn't enjoy her and that she wasn't a nice person and choose a mean? It was a learning moment was a teaching moment. That's LOS now. Yes, yes, yes, but think about it in terms We were talking about earlier, where the scholarships stretching back again to the 60s. You have this idea that all of society is constructed out of power dynamics that are mediated through language, media imagery. She just now became problematic and she put out ideas that would be dangerous and poisonous to discuss. The merits are DIS, merits of not something to work through, not something as a teachable moment. She put out an idea, that's dangerous
We can't put out ideas anymore. Well, you know it was really interesting too. She tried she was so disingenuous and how she approaches so obvious. You know what uh black person is it. Why is it wrong for a black person dresses a white person? It's not! No one ever said that. Why are you pretending you just set it up so that you could say a white person wear black black face? I think about you. I think about the other cultural moment there too, so, like you said they bring in black scholars in at the end of that she said you know. I really listen to that, and I didn't know that, and I was wrong and I'm changing my mind. There was this woman on Twitter. That said her video look, I retweeted it looks like a hostage video yeah. I think that was missing was her holding up a newspaper that showed the day so that yeah yeah, so australian woman. The whole thing is so fucking funny, but that is, is one of the worst ways to really dissect ideas, because, first of all, there's a studio audience that Fuchs
bring up? Second of all, you have these massive time constraints, and then you have advertisers. Then you have a bunch of executives that are all cowards, they're, all just ready to pull the trigger on anything anytime. They can blame you for anything that went wrong and get rid of you or far the fire fire him get rid of him, get out of him. Bringing the next person you know, and then they will most likely do, is to show they've learned they'll hire an all black crew. Write, a diverse group. Yes, that's how they used to do a matter of fact. I think I've read the isn't. Are they doing? That Do they do that they replacing Megyn Kelly with a crew of of color, just think about where that works right. It works. He said they're, cowards, they're, afraid they're going to damage their brand or whatever it is. Where does that work who works on that bullies right? So these people? Are they so pervasive in the academy? Why are they so pervasive and media? They know they can bully these people. They know that
go lean on this stuff and somebody be cowardly and then they're gonna be able to. You know, make something change in the direction they want to change. You see it even creeping into politics. They they try to do it with policy makers. You see a lot more in and a lot of other countries right now we're in this massive like backlash against it in american politics. How's that going two thousand. Sixteen help your progressive agenda gang and holy crap. Well, that is a part of the problem with that, what is it? What is saying so yeah? look at this today. As you know, we're starting a new chapter in the third, never show as it evolves it's evolving, it's a fucking living being. We want. You know the entire today family will continue to bring you informative and important stories, just as we always have and look two black guys, Anna Brown Chick. That's one hundred percent diverse. We got rid of a princess all divorce,
things away. That diversity is defined. If you had a panel, it was just black guys. It would be one hundred percent, diverse yeah, so then redefined the word diversity, they've yeah define the word inclusion yeah, but but to people outside the academy. They they think diversity. It's a great thing right. You know I had, but that's not what it means. It means kind of when everybody has the same ideas about something also when you eat. If you were in forcing diversity for what it will look, we we have to, we would have to find out, like alternately, the goals to find out what what causes people to succeed and it is especially succeeding in something as benign as talking right, you're just talking, so you doing so. What causes someone to succeed in talking? What makes their ideas valuable would make some someone if you enjoy listening to and then finding like what what impediments there are to that in in all the various communities and six of the root
level. What doesn't work is saying we need one Chinese, lady right, we need one black guy and we need one white guy, because if you do something like that, you're not going to get the best show nope or you I can give the best anything we're not even guaranteed to achieve the goal you're claiming. So it's again, it goes back to theory in theory, and I mean theory in terms of post, modern, critical theory that this stuff is all based on that we studied. The idea is that if you have a particular identity now you have a particular view of the world, and people of other identities have different ones and in fact, there's this whole thing called standpoint. Epistemology that says that if you have a marginalized identity, you know more about the world than other people, because you live in two worlds at once. So the idea, so if we get a black guy in here, he's had a different life experience. Therefore he can speak truly to that. The chinese lady in here she can speak to that so on and so forth. So the guess is that
virtue merely of bringing in people who look different with different races or genders, or sex or sexuality then you automatically get a diverse set of opinions, but that doesn't work. That's not how that actually works. You could take people of every race, educate them on the exact same social justice curriculum and they all think exactly the same thing, but at least in something like hosting it today show you are just talking once you put these sort of diversity standards or something like mathematics, no yeah, that's when things get super squirrelly, yeah they're, trying to do that a little bit, I'm sure retweeted. That thing I wrote about the mathematics and they wanted people to. equity, which is another word that they have co opted. They wanted folks to sign an equity statement of diversity, and the thing is playing that explain what they're trying to that you have a commitment to diverse yeah, you have a commitment,
diversity, and you have a a commitment to equity and so equity does not mean treating people equally, it's not like you have a commitment to a quality which is, we should all have a short Mitchell quality. It equity is defined differently, it's to make up for past injustices or to make up for some deficiency that has a heard somewhere along the line. So yeah affirmative action is an equity movement. It's to treat people differently in order to level the playing field. So it's not treating people, it's not treating people equally, an that's the key thing. It sounds like it is, but it's not it's Word that they've smuggled in so out of the literature. Again. It's again, all this stuff comes back to the literature. So if you look at the word equity in the dictionary, you get one definition, but if you look at the word equity as they're, applying it and sociological definitions, it's a very specific thing that,
means something slightly different from what people assume so here's the question you should ask somebody anytime, you hear someone used the word equity. Just ask! Oh I'm Why didn't you use the word? Equality continue. Can you think of a woods? It seems to be the same with the meaning, be the same. Well, the meaning is not the same. That's why they used equity and not equality. As a finance word, that's why it's weird is also fun yeah, so they don't make up new words right. They coopt yeah, they co op, they change, and then they smuggle diversity, inclusion, yeah these academic papers and they come up with these ideas. They start with their conclusion. They push it through. It gets published an that's just It's like the academic equivalent of money laundering. Yes right, so how does money laundering work? Yes, you take some money. You got ill gotten money, you put it through this shell company or this thing or the other thing
comes back to you and now it's had a legal trail that makes it legit right. Well, here you take some prejudice, you write it down as an academic paper, you publish the thing: it gets the academic standard stamp on it. It's a gold standard of knowledge now and now. This is this prejudice. You started with now looks like legitimate knowledge. I can go straight in the classroom. It can go straight to exactly activists or policymakers. It's a real problem yeah, and when they really funny, though, that you put you see it's like academic money line, is it is yes that's breath? That's just very Weinstein said that Brett Weinstein said that and that's what is it comes out. The other side is knowledge. So then they think they have knowledge right, yeah or paper about the dill DOE's. The guy said this paper is an important contribution to knowledge.
Reviewer one, I think out of the viewer, one slash two, a car, you yeah important contribution to knowledge. I would hope reviewer one was just hitting a bong ready for your big data lies laughing laughing at the whole knowledge who what kind of person gets attracted to wholeheartedly agreeing to these ridiculous ideas like what? What are the people like to great question? I think it's people who want to save the world by we. I think we would all like to save the world. Yeah, I'm much more cynical than they yeah they've got a you know. They've got they've they've got this idea that I mean
we talked a moment ago about about privilege and we kind of you know brushed real close. The idea that, if it's kind of like original sin- and so they see the the the downside of privilege, the office, I discrimination or racism, Sexism Exeter Hate is the big word. You know fight hate, he's a he's using hate. This is hate speech. That's were, I think they got the the term. That's like the evil thing, you're born with privilege that cycle original sin. So what do they want to do they want to? They want to fix to save the world by clearing out the evil of privilege by clearing out hate from the world. For them utopia means nobody hates an by hate. We need something like racism, sexism, etc. So it's a noble idea, but then, when you start looking at it- and it's like ridiculous way, like you're, born with privilege and now you're, just stuck with right. What can you do? It's original sin? You can be sorry for it. You can try to be an ally and work it off. You can check it whatever the hell. That means you can do a lot of things, but you can't actually atone for it. You can't get over it. You can't get rid of it.
Then you get the situation where it's like. They really really need to take desperate measures like let's lock it all down. Let's, let's tell these people that they're wrong. Let's try to point out how whites premises in them because they're white, let's point out how mass plenty is, an ideology that needs to be destroyed. That was LISA Wade. She wrote that last here, maps company is an idea. Alagiya needs to be destroyed. I need to ask you later because Trump- and this is the thing right- I think in the past couple of years, of course, before Trump it wasn't, they had other avatars. I think there's a lot of anger and frustration, just fine slow at trump- and they see this, and so I read so many other, usually Op Eds, not their academic pieces, and it's like nr like this men are bubble and you can tell they just talk about Trump, but they can't touch him so they're Pist off and they try to take it out on all men. I think that's like a huge thing. They see problems, they exaggerate the problems, they practice problem and that's a thing right. They practice this stuff
go to school. It's in the General Ed curriculum, maybe they major in this stuff. You get good at finding problems. I was just talking yesterday came over and I never actually got to LOS Angeles a couple times before, but I've never been to the beach. I never actually made it down. So I went down to Santa Monica. I go to one of these burger. places right on the on the right by the pier, and it says that this is the burger that made Monica famous immediately, you saw the hot ones thing right. I was like there's a paper on this. You see the problems here, you have this manly double cheeseburger being marketed. That's what made Santa Monica famous. Oh, so manly food culture is the kind of like It was on that goes and makes a city become a city. It become makes a place into a place, and you could. I could write a paper about than three days. Do you have to have credentials to write paper dead Phd technically? Not, and that's a sad thing. 'cause there was answer. This has been oh we're going to screen better to see who is actually writing these papers, so they can't trick us,
but that's bullsh. It's really tricky to the point. Scholarship is that it should stand on its merits of the argument solid if the research is good and they thought our research was good. So my point about the dog humping thing: it's, they should leave it the way it is if they're saying that this is. It's an important piece right. Well, I mean I would walk back on that one 'cause we did make up the data and fall. define. Data is not cool. Well, what data would be incorrect it is when you know we didn't even go to the dog park. We definitely didn't ask anybody about their dogs, genitals. I think that you could. I mean we sense it more results. We said that there's a dog crabbing on another dog's head in the paper and like that didn't happen, I'm sure that didn't happen, and maybe it did have a Who is it? I mean this is insane, but we had other papers and didn't do that fat body building the new that the one that's when the joke's on you didn't do that there's no made up to data in most of our papers and why shouldn't those
stand right? Why should I stand by those exactly we can get it because we can't differentiate real scholarship from bulshit, because they're in this crazy ecosystem, in which their ability to make discerning judgments about things has been dulled because they put in agenda before truth. I keep seeing all these academics coming like they get their gotcha moment on it. So, like I read your paper, it's actually a real paper, it's good! How crazy is this like yeah thanks for noticing? Assehole? That's exactly We were trying to do. We weren't writing just stupid pranks. The dog park paper is pretty funny, but we were actually trying to learn what's going on there thanks for noticing, somebody finally did, but that means of course they don't admit that we actually learn this stuff, because then, when we say it's sh, it there's stuck with some knows what they're talking about saying it sucks and they don't want that either Now, when you said those people that are trying to save the world like what do you really mean by that? I think there are the people trying to build the kingdom of God on the planet. Earth. To draw metaphor religious metaphor: there people who see
evil and they want to purge the world of that evil by any means necessary and the evil being like privilege, privileges, ledge, hey white, supremacy, new religions. Patriarch Christianity goes down, it's just. You know it game of thrones. The only reason you need new gods are because people don't believe in the old gods ran. So we have these religious modules or have you in our brain and then religion is intersectionality and we see. That really is what it is. That's exactly what it is now. The parallels are reading writing about that and talking about that for years, studying religion, psychology for years- and it's all over this- and this is political correctness in parallel with blasphemy. It's the same parallels of heresy that parallelism exactly exactly yeah, I mean it's. It's ost sing how easily people sort of slide in these precondition. Slots. So one difference, and I think this is a key difference. The reason that it's easy
easier- and I mention this to pendulum- we didn't talk, and he just couldn't believe it. The reason that it's easier to talk to Christian, for example, about faith, about their religion is 'cause. At the end of the day, it comes down to faith. These people don't have any faith, they have knowledge quote unquote they. their bodies of scholarly literature which were idea laundered. That's what So they can point to these things and say: well, I don't know, and if I know I know how do you know well Robin D'Angelo's white fragility? How do you study there's a study? There's a study, there's a study. There's a study. I know house hosts of those studies are written and I don't trust them and you shouldn't trust them either yeah yeah yeah! Well, you see that I mean even in nutrition when you see it in everything this this in terms of like almost a religious or religion like, except exactly of specific ways of eating or specific ways of,
communicating specific ways of being. It's just so strange how people seem to have this natural inclination to adopt predetermined patterns of behavior right yeah. I think actually there's pretty decent understanding of that from the perspective of moral psychology. You've got this idea that somebody has seen something as good, so it elevates them. It makes them better. So clean eating might be good right, whatever clean eating means for some people vegan for some people, it's like all you eat is Grass FED beef who knows, but you've got clean eating and you got dirty eating and he goes into the clean thing and so you've got this kind of like purity thing an event. If you take this so seriously, it becomes kind of a sacred value to you. Well, what's sacred mean we have this kind of vague sense, so you know holy this that sacred It's something really important to somebody or what it really means is that it's taken on so much moral importance of somebody they no longer will allow it to be questioned when something sacred. It's now remove from the sphere of being doubted, questioned or whatever, and so,
when you have this idea like that, let's say that privilege is the cause of of racism and you've elevated that they're. The problem with everything in society even then, you've elevated that to like a sacred value that can't be questioned. You can't say maybe there's another dimension to it. That's when you start these kind of religious, like behaviors, you start getting these problems because you've got a place where it can't be a question to be made fun of you're talking about the comedy earlier. This is killing comedy right. It's absolutely killing comedy because you can't make a joke 'cause. If the joke goes a little bit wrong. Now, you've committed a heresy here, a blast from her going yes, but no because people love when you go instead, that's true, so eight the weight of it is there. But when you resist it, people scream and throw his yes. So this is really interesting because if we take their theory about humor at face value right that you can
only go against a power thing, so we say: ok, you know what we wrote a paper, one of our papers, the jokes on you is about that. Let's say the right: why do people love it? Well, it's because everybody knows these guys, these guys power they're, trying to pretend that they don't have power, that they are the victims, they're the oppressed. Meanwhile, there getting everybody into everything, they're firing people for saying the wrong thing in class. You know whatever it is: that's only possible if they have power and the joke when S park makes fun of like well. Is it pc principle or whatever South park makes fun of that. The only reason people laugh, if their theory is right, is because their powerful if their theories long as it's just funny? Then we can talk about something different, but if they're actually right, if they're actually making a point here there, not guys in the third meeting, that they have seized a lot of troll power? And that's why people celebrate
when you go back again stuff, that's why people have sent us some emails like this is the greatest thing ever. Thank you. So much for doing this there's all this shit, like you guys, are heroes, blah blah blah. Why? Because they wanted to see you laughed? Why? Because it's funny as hell is why and why these people are they're they're influencing the shit out of stuff yeah and if they weren't, if they were just you know, victims who don't have a voice, who can't make any impact who aren't seeing people every rumor like? Why are you bullying those guys? Why are you being a dick right, but everybody thinks it's funny and why because, because they have real impact, they have real impact yeah and that's one of the things that we really want to convey to people. Is that this? What happens?
Academy does not stay in a cat? No, it spread it spread throughout the world now and I've. I've read some articles about some things that we said on the show that are just completely preposterous and taken totally out of context and presented, as some evidence of you know, we'll we'll whatever transgression, that's in him and impossible to defend it's very strange. It's it's very strange time for for communication it's a very strange time for ideas, but I also think it's really exciting. It's exciting that all this nonsense is going on That's one of the things that I really loved about what you guys have done. It's exciting! It's exciting that you guys have infiltrated and have these fucking dumb is public. Not just publisher should but praise it. Yeah. I'd say how amazing it is that you wrote a bit about fat Bodybuilding,
I mean in fact, since is this one fat, shaming and fat acceptance? There are two preposterous phrase. Is there really are you know I mean you shouldn't be mean to people, that's it. Fat shaming because someone's fat, no you're? If you you can't call me fat 'cause, I'm not fat. Doesn't yes, so that's really the center, so that body of literature here some that that I learned when I I read this: is they don't use the word obesity, because this is really interesting because obesity, it gets back to Jumos an obesity is a narrative. It's just a story, so they use the word fat use me. So it's not obesity, Bodybuilding, there's this fat, Bodybuilding and and they're all these narratives. So would one want to buy into one narrative rather than another narrative why fat, Okane, obesity, bad, because obesity a medicalized narrative which fat is just a description.
They're rejecting medicalized terms. They call it a I'm not making What health ism is a narative? It's a power structure where healthy and thin people are imposing their view of how the body should be yes on their health and their spin privilege like they'd. Look at you and you've got all the you know, because you must zero two, so you wouldn't just be straight white heterosexual service Nasser I mean you've got health promotion. You've got help, privilege is overlooked. Probably three also enable us to yeah. You know I got that devilish. Really, that's not good, for you. Yeah falls into that. So that's real! That's an it's real yeah using, and they also claim to be healthy at every size movement. You can be healthy seisen! Obesity is just a medical eyes yeah. That's really important, though, because the point of that is to say: if your doctor tells you you're fat and it's a health concern, then you don't have to listen yeah. That is
that I've read that before, and I read an article by this woman who was morbidly obese Charlotte Cooper familiar name once, but she was talking. She was also using like really miss using some studies on there was some there. There have been some studies on people who are overweight and that there could possibly be some health benefits to being overweight. These studies have been widely dismissed now, not only dismissed, but they go in direct contrast to the great volume of studies that show how terrible it is for your health to be that that fat and that heavy, but this person remember who it was why she was doing this, but she was clinging to these one or two studies that have been dismissed. These are biased, epidemiological studies that have been dismissed, but she was putting him in this blog as if this is some sort of evidence that
Not only is it not unhealthy to be fat, but it might be healthy to be fat now think about this person in an academic position. As a professor teaching young people that supported young girls, particularly young girls, who might have eating disorders exactly health, ay privilege. Well, my god. This is real. This is a real paper, all this stuff. They think it's a they think it's like when doctor, says you're overweight. It's a concern for your health. They see that as a form of fat, shaming, saying that there alright the way that they are they're not being accepted the way that they are there's a power dynamic that healthy people are posing Appan overweight people, they have myriad issues that they come up with, and I mean it's term. Some of these complaints have got to be. Some real. You know they don't make as many oversized clothes a plus size clothes, it's harder to get styles or there's some legit stuff. You know that they might want to say hey. What can we do? Something this, but on the other hand the whole thing that, like saying
it has nothing to do with health. It has nothing to do with your triglyceride levels higher than it's just. It runs its anti evidence. It runs in the face of every conceivable piece of evidence there, teaching kids, this schools and there are classes fat studies, and there's an actual, oh well. This fat studies, FAT studies Journal published journalist that studies James going to bring it up, but sure I told you I told you, thirty million people are waiting to find out studies that studies, Israel Journal of Body weight in society, and this is what song is when we do this thirty, people are going to now know that there's something facets now fat studies doesn't do what you think it does. You probably think, oh fat studies, you know what are triglycerides. How much should you exercise know? What's a good diet, how much sugar is too much sugar while that is absolutely not with this journal- does frozen a fat tail of immigration. What the hell crafting weight stigma hold on a second crafting weight stigma and slim
in class is a case study in Ireland. So I'm telling you you go to a swimming class you're going to lose weight. You take a take a fitness class or something whatever swimming classes are fatness intemperate. They use a stigma against being fat, they basically say fats bad for you, but this one theorizing fat which in intersectional approaches an method. Roger goal, innovations, you just said a bunch of nonsense. The oppression of fat people is built into institutions, pervade the cultural landscape and affect you dude. We could have written this effect relationship and perceptions of people of size, people of size it. This introduction to the special people of size is about the new people of color. Exactly that's. The new Blair left, but more people of color is a problem. Now too, yes, split up people, of course, but you can, but you see, there's people of color and then there's bipoc, which I don't know how you pronounce that fits bipac or what. But that would be black and indigenous people of color, because they have even
impression than the other people of color and they've got a fight over then yellow people of color, for example, or probably Brown Harvard, can discriminate against Asians, were trying to get in, let's tap our noses and just move on right. So so, but then that's even a problem, because indigenous is recent recently been branded a racist term because you're not actually honoring yeah you're, not hitting the actual tribal identity, get it right on the cutting edge of this stuff. It's like we going into meltdown in this is because it's too random, well yeah you're, it's just you're, not you're, generalizing, your chair and what he is out. Yes, now I'm Nez Perce yeah. Okay, so you can see again the competitive victimhood going on who gets to claim more of the victimhood pie? And oh now, we've got this thing about people of color, so they get. You know victimhood status, but
why, if that goes to all people color equally, that's not fair, because these people color even more discriminating and so that you get more of it. It's really they're fighting over a piece of the pie of of victimhood ness. I love the canadian term First nations. First nation people, it's, but it's a better term, because real in every single human being that came to North America came from somewhere else no means so it should be a witch in the in the fap. Since we're talking about the fat by the bill, a paper, hello, yeah, I put in a star trek reference at the end I love STAR Trek I put in something like fat body building is the final frontier for fat activism in like still didn't like that, they said it was so that we couldn't use the word frontier because it evokes imagery of the genocides merrily the american native Americans to choose a different word. Yeah yeah
went here holy she'll come out frontier airlines right. What's up with them there in trouble, your whole worldview is so utterly distorted and twisted, and the things you believe are totally untethered to reality. But yet I believe, there's knowledge, you believe it's knowledge, because it's published and think about what it does the students to pick the stuff up. You go to college, you pick this up, you start majoring in it. You could be majoring, something where you actually learn to do critical thinking to engage with ideas if you're, if you're, if you're vantage going into college. That's your best chance to get out of that situation is to grapple with great critical thinking, learn some great skill. whether that's you know, engineering and the Sciences, something like that, whether it's even if it's you want to get into like study, I'm racing sociology, soft sciences or you want to get into just literature. Do it honestly you're going to get somewhere, but you get into this stuff, where you can literally just make up your conclusions? What do you do in your
and these people how to think about problems or, seeing you know the burger in the Santa Monica Pier's a problem. Now I see it everywhere. I go after I did this for a year, so you get the people in the habit of seeing problems everywhere. Are you open them? Well, you get them write a book about this or anything. You know we might one day. I don't know great idea for a book. The hard part is, we could actually probably write ten books, so condensing it count to a book. Usually, you got an idea, you gotta blow it up to a book. We have to this down to a book anything talking about the problem like just explaining what you've already explained on this podcast and and and actually having those studies that you did, publish and and the whole thought process behind yeah creating. That would be a great book, but we gotta documentary happening about it. Yeah MIKE Nina is a documentary and from from Australia, got hooked up with us, see a white he's not he's around ground black watch Ellen how we met MIKE yeah. So it's interesting because we
starting out this project, and then we ended up talking with and talk to anybody about it so hard to keep a fucking secret. This big right, we just want to help. People like you are going to believe what I'm doing can tell anybody. So we find a few trusted. Friends were telling this one guy We have ours and he's like. Oh, my god, I know a documentarian who's making like invest getting all this shit going on in the universities already he's already interested. Would you guys be interested? This would be a compelling documentary. Would you guys be interested in talking to him, so we get in touch with him and he's like listen. You know I'll shoot this. I think, there's a there's a film here, I think you're to ruin your career. So that's what I'm going to film but in any case I'll film this, but here's the so I'm only going to shoot it. If you commit one hundred percent to transparency, let me tell the full story honestly: what's really happening, you know we don't get to sugar coat anything and make you guys look good and of course,
I thought we were just going to crash and burn it's ridiculous letters. Like you only reason I agree to this. I was sure that you guys are going to torpedo your careers like positive yeah, and so he thought it was going to be that and he would have to convince us. Let him show it because we wouldn't want to does. He know that you don't work in academia, anymore, yeah, but we were doing project. So we reached out to him and said well through the girlfriend. How would it ruin your career? Well, I Maybe it would never get another job. If I wanted to go back into academia, for example, or I mean I still have it happened yet, but you see people who do mix conduct get banned from ever publishing academic papers again. That could still down for me, I don't know what'll, it probably won't, but it might- and if it does, you know, then, if I try to get a job working for like a Think tanker university or anything, there depends on that. I'm locked out of that now so phone it is specially is gonna.
So it's clear to: let's be honest, he works, he works and not just the University of Portland State. You know it's like ground zero for you. I don't know. I don't know, what's going to happen that people when it's over for sure they always like- not sure I don't know, I don't know, what's going to happen now, it's best not to prognosticator to with with all the stuff you see it. Now we talked about Brett, Weinstein and Heather. Hang they, he got fire bombed right. Their thing just blew up the hell up and I got, out of their jobs, but in a sense it's like, I don't know, I was talking to them when we were in Portland and it feels like they kind of took the fall and people are like whoa. That's too far- and I don't know, if that's the case, or but if so, maybe that's too far like pushing people out of their jobs students patrolling the campus with bats, trying to find Brett to pull him out of his car. If he showed up yeah, I don't care who you are that's too far,
I mean that's, not even civil society who thought that was too far. The students did not bear, but a lot of people like people that all is in a Roman is like. Did you think it was too far right? I thought it was insane. I think the government should have come in and shut on the school in that time really to tons of people around no, I mean like noon. Everyday people who saw the story think whoa ship the stuff gone too far. The fact that they're allowing that guy to remain as president yeah, absolutely absolutely wellness when there's that scene. In that case the wearer was conference room or whatever was when they're. The kids were telling to put his hands down yeah because he's being aggressive with his hands yeah, he puts his hands down and they start laughing yep. It's like what in the is this. It is a system set up to where you can't win is what it is: a deliberate it's hilarious, but they were laughing at him. He put his hands down, stop making hand, gestures are being aggressive, he puts his hand and they started laughing at me. I did Firefly Iphone at terrified. I find it terrifying
for what it means for all of us yeah. If that can happen at a college campus, I mean that's where ideas are supposed to be shared, discussed, explored, etc. If that can happen at a college campus, everything is up for grabs at some point with that college campuses really strange right. It's really strange struggling now and lyrics down radically radically down yeah, I mean they could literally go under because of this, it looks like it might happen, yeah it's too bad, because when it was doing well, as Brett was explaining, it was a wonderful place to teach 'cause. He could do whatever he really cool stuff. He could take them to the park and they could do a class in the park they could. He could have a class where you know whatever, regardless of what he's teaching he could teach about something else, yeah crazy trip somewhere. You know all this stuff. You know it ventures with this and it's such a creator. The Simpsons go there too speaking for the sims, and I think he was an alarm from there. It's such a shame, because they're, just such decent people yeah
they're. Just such grind great they're, both great there on the smart, too, so, really legitimately, smart and fiercely grass and both of you. So your recipe, yes in humans. Yes, that means they're all right adjacent right right. This is hilarious man. These people, it's a strange, strange time for ideas, but I think this is us it's it's also so subs. It's some sort of a symptom of this culture that we live in where everyone gets to voice their opinion. Everyone feels entitled divorce there I mean because of social media because of this instantaneous ability to post whatever you feel about anything, whether it's a comment on Youtube or tweet or Facebook post this nature of everyone putting in input instead of earning
your right to be heard. You know, and through merit and through your work and through people he's saying hey, this guy is smart. This girl has great ideas. This person really has some good points. That's all Tom Nichols ideas before we used to criticize people from the point of expertise. Now, people who have actually no expertise feel that they are entitled to not only criticize but have everybody else, listen to their criticisms. Now I think you're on to something with the social media right 'cause, you post something, and it gets like four interactions and you're like why. How come Joe Rogan thing got like four thousand: it's not fair right right, and so there's this like kind of competitive, jealousy kind, thing going on and I think we've seen that a lot you know these kind of you know people who don't what to bring to the table and they want to get it's a spot on a podcast. Maybe they want to get on. You know a conference or something speaker at a conference, and we see this for years. What happens as well? You know you got some big name, that's coming well, let's just like,
can him and say well he's a sexist? He said this terrible thing. Now he can't be at the conference or will protest, get him out put one of our guys in or when they start to get more power. It's like, let's make sure half of our people are there or else we're going to make sure that we say your conference is racist. Then that becomes like just a hot mess. Nobody wants to go to. The conference is not going to be financially soluble, so it falls apart. I mean this stuff has been going on. This seems to be what's going on and I think you're touching something where social media and Tom Nichols talks about it to generating a kind narcissism where people feel entitled like. I have a voice. Nobody's listening to me, but they should listen to me because they of course think their ideas are great and the rise of, Media coincides with shutting down speakers absolutely liquors on campus. Didn't used to happen that way it used to be even if people protested it. The speech went on an people debated that person or those people got a chance during the
a section to challenge these idea. It's what it's all about supposed to be all about. Yeah. You know. If you have a problematic person, you have a person that you feel is at. They have ideas that are questionable. You bring in a person whose ideas you feel are those ideas and you let the audience see how these individuals discuss these things. When I was in high school Barney Frank debated some guy from he was a very conservative person. I forget what the there was a ridiculous conservative group that had some really funny name. I I forget what it was, but he was like this really and Ronald Reagan, style, conservative and Barney Frank was, I think he was still in the closet back then, but he was like very articulate, powerful, left wing guy and they did it inside. You know this this community
center in our high school, whatever it was. You know some auditorium and I got a chance to watch this. One guy talk about all these different. You know whatever it was gay marriage or whatever is conservative ideas and values and marriage between a man and a woman, and all these these different things that would today, at a lot of college campuses, you'd want those shut down. You don't want someone propagating these ideas. Right, Barney, Frank came on after him and eloquently dissected what this stupid about it and what the constitution is all about. What makes America great is our freedom and our ability to, and by doing so me as a sixteen year old kid and the audience got to see ideas, dissected and ideas, debate it and see two people from polar opposite perspectives, just battle
and let the best idea win and I'm sure it was probably some people that were in that audio that came out of it with a different perspective like yeah gay people shouldn't get married yeah. Marriage is supposed to be in between a man and woman, I'm sure of it, I'm sure of it and that's what happens in a democracy. Yes, yeah you're you're, talking about the very foundation of liberal society you're talking about John Stuart Mill. Here I mean: do you talking about John Adams, you're talking about the foundation of a liberal society here and that's what this scholarship runs that we that runs directly counter to this remember. The idea is that if people are putting out language, the idea that some people are going to come away with a heteronormative idea or a homophobic idea, that's already a catastrophe. Yes sure we can allow you to pull the speaker wires. I could do more of it. We've got it. We can't let that go on yeah, that's. My point is like what happened where even you know these kind of interactions between
contrary ideas is so it's it's, it's so dangerous that one or two people could possibly be shifted. We, even if it's thirty percent of the audience, knew who the knows what what's going to when people are sitting there listening and who's to say that you're right, you're wrong, that the way to challenge ideas is not pulling the plug on the speakers. It's better ideas use if you fundamentally subscribe to the idea that heteronormativity, let's use it as the example of heteronormativity is the power structure, that's holding down gay people and preventing them from having equal opportunities? If you fund really believe that anybody else getting convince anybody being reinforcing the idea of heteronormativity isn't just a few like seventy percent change their mind and thirty percent stuck with it. That's just bolstering the already imagined to be completely dominant view. It's really kind of anti address right because it views the idea that power structures can't change there, always
rooted in some identity. Whoever has you know, there's more straight people than gay people or ok, so there for straight people always have power. Therefore, anything that reinforces heteronormativity- is going to be a catastrophe that reinforces the next thing. You know people are going to be beating gays in the snow or something like that. It's also the complete infantile ization of young adults because so you're telling me these young adults aren't smart enough to differentiate between good ideas and bad idea if they're learning all this grievance studies stuff, I just said there Tickle thinking is getting hobbled. But here's my point: if you were a person who is a young progressive, well read person, who's got some rock solid ideas about people being able to live their lives without discrimination and all the things that I'm sure we all agree on, and you sat and listened to some right wing all task, WH spewing hate. Is it going to change you in effect, you of course it's not
so who is it going to affect like who? Who are these ideas going to reach? Why do we assume that people are so much more easily influenced than we are? What? What is that about this? Isn't this infant young adults? It is bubble, wrap on kids from the world and sharp corners. Gonna put a a list, can often high just published a book called island of the american mind, yeah and yeah, and and- and I think, if you look at heights work and Paradox Academy and he's fighting for this, but we have infant infantilize people, we have infantilized students and I don't I hope that IDA changing- I don't know. One of the things we wanted to do with this project is give people the opportunity to speak out and say you know they don't speak for me. I want to hear what someone has to say about immigration. The other side quotes.
I wanna hear, which I want to hear the best argument, because then I want to engage them myself and you know. I also think that we should have people of all. I think it's a problem that people are who who go into teaching at the I can't afford this. I read the overwhelming percentage of people called educators are on the left. I'm on the left. I think that's a problem. I think that they need diverse voices. Diversity also has to be ideological diversity, and if you want people to be brittle and if you want people to be less infantilized to hear the other side, but they have to hear a joke. This is also mills idea. They have to hear it from people who believe in that's in John Stuart Mill's book on Liberty, his it's not enough to have heard that the other side, the organ from the other side exists. You need to hear the best case before by people who really really subscribe to it yeah and then work against that if you can defeat that than it deserves to be defeated,
right yeah- and this is the thing I think you know in general human beings- we all put forth their best ideas and we're all wrong. Most of the time we're all we can be a smart guy, smart woman, whatever we're all pretty stupid, we put forth a lot of ideas. Most of 'em are wrong for everybody. True, for you me everybody and what we should really be relying on. Is you know I put down idea and you're like well, I don't know about that, and so we start cutting away the bullshit that I tapped into my idea of the stuff I didn't have right. We do that and now the idea that survives, that process is better and then somebody else comes along and says: wait, wait, wait! That part is probably a little bit bullship, but this you could add to it and make it better. And then some of it's wrong, and this is the process of how we really produce knowledge right yeah and it's a call it to it. That's what gives us a vibrant culture too right and as opposed to
we see here where I can we, the three of us, can make up the conclusion write a paper to support it and then, if you criticize it, you had to have criticized it because you were sexist or because you are racist. If you do a scientific test that shows that it's wrong the science must have been set racist. You know anything once you're doing that you're just you're really in the weeds you're, not helping anybody right, and we need to study these areas, gender and race. But we need to do it right, yeah. We need to do it freely. Where we just talk and you don't you don't get accused of all sorts of horrible transgressions. Exactly and that's not. The culture that I that we want to see in here and that's not the culture we have well, I think, there's Everyone is railing against identity, politics and I think we can all agree. Identity, politics, a huge problem, but another problem that goes along with it hand in hand, is identifying personally with ideas where
these ideas are connected to your ego, identity. Upto, tenants are exactly that. Did you yeah? It's a call everybody's wrong about God, and it sounds like a just going to go after religion, but it's actually the culmination of my study of religious psychology and so really what it as was targeting. I mean it talks about what's going on with religion and why people believe religion. What God actually stands for in terms of you know psychology is it might yeah, but then what is really targeting was. I saw all these people who are like you know, loudmouth atheists, and they were like this and that and the other thing this whole community and I saw a holyshit they're doing this same thing. Yes, right, they're doing the same thing and what are they doing? There identify seeing as an atheist- I am an atheist yeah that mean well. I want to be a good atheist. How the fuck do you be a good atheist? Doesn't make any sense. You remember atheism
atheism plus, was exactly what I was looking at Bro favorite, that was gold. I watched a whole speech like like smoking, a joint and laugh my fucking Azov at this dork speaking in front of some other group of dorks that we're all part of the atheism plus movement and he just cap just ranting about sexual harassment and diversity, and all these different things and attaching to atheist exactly mother soccer you're, making your own religion exactly exactly exactly exactly right. Hi Joe Rogan saw it straight. It was so fun because the guy was such a virtue, signalling little we total yeah. It was so he can log on. Yes is needed, you little yeah little sneaky. That was trying to get girls to like him, yep yarn to you that your you see what it is. Those I got to be a good how do I do it? Well, I don't know: 'cause atheist means, don't believe stuff of a certain kind. So they have.
yeah. I can plus yeah so slight rain most what that justice? How did he died off because it didn't work? This team was little gremlin around or whatever, but I happen to think about it. They got a whole blog. They really letter project yeah, they said they're. Still there yeah we're three white men that when you went, They were. Therefore we have bad motivations motivate since we get all time because we're straight white men, kiss bad bad white men straight white men are basically like a little arrow running around looking for vaginas. Anything you say is basically just a little sneaky way for you to get inside of a vagina and all this little stunt you just you just making your way through society. It's a little. I think we're not in that way and that's what it is right. But the truth is, though, that if they think that that I mean this is the article of faith, here's a privilege exists and always preserves itself,
so we're straight white men. We criticized what supposed to be, but isn't social justice work? It's bad social justice work. You know capital social justice screwed up, so we criticize that there why we must be because we're white man trying to starvation or somewhere yeah. Of course you guys are a problem that was the depth of their analysis, that they, you know like some of professors and stuff. That's and wouldn't it have been better say you know what there's a problem yeah, and we want to study this stuff and we need to clean house and thank you goes we appreciate it, but you would after steps so far out of your belief system and be so objective and so self aware that you realizing you're in some sort of a preposterous group and very few people, going to admit that most of their life's work has been nonsense, especially when you get rewarded for that you get promoted. For that you get accolades from that you Kerry Status and privilege. Look I mean when people join some fuckin' wacky cult,
they don't join it, saying that this is bullshit, but it'll be fun. They they even right. They buy into it now, and this is no different- is like what we're talking about about ideologies of people they lock into these predetermined patterns of thinking and behavior, and this is what's happening here yeah and it's very much like a call. It's very much like any other group, think sort of environment. It's like Scientology Europe in the university, so everything they put out about feet, volcanoes or whatever they've got all of a sudden. That's not like just crazy. You know, L Ron Hubbard was it DIA Netex or whatever that's gold, standard knowledge, academic, Press, Oxford, you know yeah, so you get a degree yeah and then you get to teacher and ask somebody. Come somebody wrote an article criticizing a session there like they don't understand. You know they think we just talk to each other. In a bubble. We talked to policy makers. We talked to media there's like no that's why we did this. You know Ryan Hawke took
you do talk to other people, you are running into you, know, PS, sorry, HR, department, you're telling him how to do the diverse, officer institutionalizing their institutional, and it's talking to policy makers. I get emails, you don't know if you saw a year before all this, we did this really. You know bad attempt at a cults conceptual as a social construct, so we said that are a social construct and because clay a change, and it's got a little bit of attention. I've been getting emails ever since then some member, you, parliament and they're, like we- have another gender initiative that we're gonna try to basically forced upon you know ii, you and then this guy like dictate how Europe now works with Africa going forward about climate, and so because I wrote this because several and climate change saying it's all based on you know making fun of gender studies. It was at the time anyway, they were, like. You know, you're an expert so now that you use Kalami, you know what do we do about this gender initiative, but that's real right. The EU parliament is not like nothing, that's not that
Well! You know it's not like a meeting of some dorks had a conference. That's real they're coming up with Paula's, to dictate how they want to interact with Africa for the next two thousand and thirty years. That's real! and these people are emailing me saying this scholarship that you guys are criticizing is really, on the agenda of the EU. Parliament so help alright. Well, it seems like what we I have here is sort of a wave of ideas right it goes in and it goes out it's going back and forth and you need this sort of balancing act and there are great things- need to go so haywire that people step in and go
well, I'm pulling my fucking kids at evergreen state. This is crazy and it that's a great example of a place that went too far and what we don't want to have happen. Is we don't want people to pull their kids out of the universities, know 'cause. There are some, not the university, but these department's don't major in it exactly don't major in it, but it's which department, specific gender studies, critical race studies, cultural studies, queer theory that studies, if it happens to have one, I read it, the biography, a guy who teaches critical, whiteness, yeah critical whiteness is a thing who, who is that? Actually there was a journal and then it got it got so out there that it can't criticize out of existence button. It's a big thing and there's some big pay. For hours reading just before we went public with all this and I got asked about it. Luckily I read it because we did the Mein Kampf. Of course Israel is like you got mine published on my god. We need to talk to. You is real tv. You know I was on israeli tv
well, and so all these israeli journalists are calling me talking to me about it and, over the mind, confident read this one paper they're like well. Do you think that jewish studies is like this, and I found this paper just before this all came out? There was jewish studies, criticizing critical, whiteness studies, because there's this whole thing about how the critical whiteness people who accused the Jews of being white and then there's all this. You know who's. Where does the oppression lie? As you know, the Jews have had a pretty rough over the last two thousand years or thereabouts, but then you got the politeness. People be like no they're white. It's a white privilege blah and then the jewish studies people are like hold up. You know, don't put us up here and say that we're all white supremacists yeah, we were gassed by the white supremacists chill. So there's this huge, like critical studies, fight between the jewish studies, people and the and the critical whiteness people
over whether Jews count as white people are not and have white supremacy built in, and they asked me about this israeli journalist said and I was like well, you know I have to sympathize with what they're there. It is, but they're still using the same, broken methods, and so you still want to see better methods right. I think the the the jewish people have a point. You know we've been pretty heavily oppressed for two thousand years. You start like you know, the Romans decimating them and then the diaspora and then the Holocaust and every it's just not good. So I think they have a point that you know don't just say: oh, we have crazy white privilege under there. a white supremacist, but what if you want to do that? You know maybe this this methodology of of of complaining about it's not the best way to go complicated stuff, but at least they're they're against the critical whiteness stuff. This critical whiteness thing you're saying is they have a journal. They did the Journal of whiteness studies or,
Something like that. It lasted for about three and I don't know exactly why it fell apart, but it fell apart. 'cause I was really upset 'cause. I wanted to send a paper to it and it does exist anymore. What what we're going to say? The paper on the rewrite of mine com for the woman that lesbian woman excoriates her own whiteness? It was going to send it to that journal and then it doesn't exist anymore. So I had to send it to a critical race journal. Who then said it's a good idea, but you're yourself is a good white and that's a problem, so we can publish by the way we are there online. We were completely transparent, honest with everybody you could visit. Google drive or Google drive with every paper. Other pyramids comments to everything that MIKE made his videos. Everything is up there. Now, it's totally free for everybody. Yeah we get accused of being grifters. We don't have well. How are we drifting? You know that synagogue drive that anybody can just go download all of it. I don't recall getting money
for that. We want it. We really do think that that and I'm yeah there you go swedish Fessor rebels yeah versus new nickel. This is no yeah. Oh yeah, a couple days ago, Sweden's most merited in the claim political scientists and long term critics of identity politics, Bohra Teen Rothstein, has argued that identity based disciplines like grievance studies, which deals with the concept of collect guild, have no place in academia. Yeah, grievance studies is yeah right on. We fired, we yeah, we, we we, we came up with Creedence. That study sort, delighted to see that that's caught on, to start a podcast immediately, an a patris on page so that you don't have to worry about losing your house. I don't know I mean I don't know how it is in the lead in yeah. I don't either, but I know it's probably screwed. Whatever the they did with Jordan Pearson, they created a God. Damn monster hello, yeah you guys up will create a multi millionaire whose worldwide famous in the right huge bestseller.
He was just talking to swedish politicians on tv the other day, so watch out they're Fuct up with him boy did they FA cup. I was just texting me. A friend, Ruben text me pictures, they're, all full. It's crazy. In the low energy levels, lease is fairly easy. He's selling out five thousand seat. Theater is a rock star. He's a rock star he's an intellectual rockstar good for him. Yeah I mean look. A lot of other guys are doing it to SAM Harris is doing that now as well yeah. They do these gigantic huge speeches good for him find what book absolutely good for him. But what I'm excited about is how many people are interested in the debate of ideas and that this is not happening on the college campuses, but it's right a lot of these people that are graduated from have graduated from college or or you know, or in the working world, they're all very fascinated by this. It's real it's what you're saying it's been suppressed for long enough now. You know Jordan peers.
What was this thing is like you're not going to tell me the words I can use right when they're seventy eight different words for genders, I can safely say you're, fucking, crazy, yeah. It's like this inspiration to try to find a unique identity that you can consider to be super special or whatever it's totally, but you want to see easier. Is he going to like you go on these blogs? I think they're, mostly on tumblr, something it violates my rule, never used tumblr where they talk about the different sexual sexuality identities like with different kinds of set. You know I'm interested in this kind of person, but not this kind of person under these circumstances, but not under those that has like some. You know eighty syllable academic word for it now, and these people, whose whole I don't think they're academics. I think they're activists and geeks on Tumblr, but they come up with these crazy descriptions and there's like hundreds of sexual orientations yeah it's just
who wanted to be different. I think it's going to be special and they're, not good. At anything, that's I think so that that was the other part of. I guess one of the things that Jim said when I said I was more cynical. I think that the in general, the critics tend to be angry and I'm not saying that their anger is legitimate or illegitimate, but they seem to be angry. They seem to be almost universally under accomplished, so upset at you 'cause you have whatever a big show or waterfall was there whatever? They are upset about big platform audience there just generally disagreeable people, and they found these communities of other people who are in rage, tour also under accomplished who they can laugh, They can lash out at people together and then virtue signal you get rewarded for all Rogan that bat whatever they.
call you or whatever. They want to call us, Sir, whoever else some kind of an oppressor? Yes, some some for sure pressure and do something that so I don't know how we can deal with that. I mean what our attempt to do this was to try to delegitimize where they get their knowledge from like what they call knowledge, so what they could point to, we tried to say it's not knowledge and delegitimize it, but we really do need to get back to some kind of productive discussion. Productive politics for the far right disown their lunatics, an we disown are lunatics and we get back to work about whatever the oceans stick whatever it is that we're talking about, because, right now the discourse is corrupted. It we're not doing what we need to do in the academies. These people are continuing to pump out this nonsense that, totally until the to reality. It's a huge
I'm sick of it, you're sick of it we're all sick are all sick of it were sick and I'm sick of it. I've had it. I've had it with these folks, it just doesn't seem it doesn't seem like it's sustainable. It's not think it is. It seems like some weird thing: that's going to run out of Nrg, so it's eating itself. Yeah constantly eats itself like we did the thing about the people of color in the black indigenous people of color. They fragmented you when you get to the critical race, literature that it's like, okay, so you're brown or your black, but you have slightly lighter skin, slightly darker and slightly darker than that really dark. They have different levels of privilege and it's just cutting things apart. The idea, though, that this is going to create some kind of coalition. They can then defeat. You know the plurality or something like it is ridiculous. Actually, what do you see? You see the stuff starting to blow up. You see the Democrats bleed seats. They've lost like a thousand legislative seats across the? U S, since Obama got elected in a way. How are you going to get your agenda if you don't have any legislators? If you don't have anybody elected
and so then what happens? Two thousand sixteen, I don't. I can't say that the reason the Trump got elected, because there's lots of reasons. I had something to do it now. I will say it had something to do with this, because every conservative person- I know it's not just a reactionary, is like and I live in the southeast man I'd. I know some conservatives most of my friends are conservatives because I don't have a choice. If I, if I want to friends of good they're gonna conservatives who lives there, so I talk to them and they're like oh yeah, they're tearing down this kind of statute, yeah, it's tough and it's not like they're turning confederate such as heart. Ten on Thomas Jefferson, you know it's like there. George Washington George Washington Halloween's a problem. Then I didn't know you didn't know how wins problem. What are you going? As for Halloween I'm a shark? Shark cards are mermaids. Is my problematic? Oh god, if there mermaids and you're a shark, you are definitely taking like a dominant power position that power they pick my outfit. I don't pick my outfit. I have kids
they tell me what I am an issue. I don't know I'll try to figure out a paper for that. I think if we follow Ween Halloween Halloween, oh God, Shaun White apologizes for Tropic, thunder, simple jack costume, know how lucky person you know simple jack is the mentally handicapped. Okay, okay, that's right! Robert Downey Junior might be the last guy ever to wear blackface yeah, that's true, pull it off. One of the gonna pull them that show. One of the Up Tropic Thunder is problematic. I don't even make sure. There's probably never saw Tropic Thunder, never goddamnit, sulfide movie yeah, it's wonderful, you'll, love it and it's it. Special higher Lee politically incorrect says politically writing it down Tropic Thunder is a. It is a fucking great mood as a
A movie that we're gonna be racists and and able EST for saying all the time for sure we get real issues. We do what's wrong with Halloween again, hello. Ian is all mostly. It's is a lot of cultural appropriation going on to somebody my dress up, like a put on some borrowing, a poncho. That's an issue yeah and it's it's from front. Prop to safely have tacos today, ELF, well, yeah you and be a native American. You can't be a native American there's, a big stink just now about the Victoria's secret fashion show where they had like their indigenous. You know colors and the feathers there wearing and walking around half naked. You can't do that, so it's mostly that people are going to take costumes that are insensitive to other people, cultural appropriation appropriation. So it's not possible dress up as Bruce Lee man. I don't know. Maybe this is asian so while for at Harvard, maybe because he's asian I think it's yeah. We know this all blew up at Yale a few years ago. I thought for sure yeah Christophers, yeah. I heard you say his last name. I think Chris yes
So it's going down soon. He knows he's a good guy, yeah yeah, that that was hilarious. Those kids scream screaming at his safe place, yeah it was just his wife put out uh the email saying. Maybe it's ok to be politically incorrect. On Halloween it was yeah, it was just. You know, choose your costume. How you're going to choose it, we're all adults, it's probably bad to be deliberately offensive, and yet also bad to over react to incidental stuff uh Oh yeah, it's all this stuff, you like little girls with their white, can't dress up as Mulan and oh that's right. The Honda store Pocahontas is a new one, yeah problem, but I think Bruce Lee is still on the menu. I don't think anyone get in trouble for being Bruce Lee. Do you wear like that? absolutely. I get tracks Uma Thurman footprint across my chest, right footprint
or claim a building model G box right right right right, but a lot of people go with the like the cuts. Oh yeah, oh yeah. I don't have enough apps for that. That's going to be a bad costume for what is this yeah? You could buy Bruce Lee costume. Look for now. For now. For now, who knows comes to dope for now, even a baby cost. Look at that that How long is a chinese up? Babies? Chinese, that's fine! Yeah that guys fuct! You can't be a kung fu guy! No, no, not allowed camping, Ninja way too much cultural boy. This this mess that were in is there a light at the end of the tunnel, nothing so yeah yeah. I think so. The response that we've got so far has been really positive, but it's all like the secret positive. So the feeling I get is in academia well from academics. Yeah, the general public has been way more positive than that yeah
super positive over support, so that the wind is changing right if they were getting that much we got no real blowback. We got, we got lots of positivity from the public. Even academics are reaching out there like secret positive with them. It's like one more thing right. We need a critical mass 'cause. What they are is are all lined up. They know the first step out of line and challenge the stuffs getting shots like the communist situation. After communism fell, nobody really believed anymore, but they had to go along with the party going get shot, but if a whole bunch of people come forward once I can't shoot everybody. So it feels like we're in that powderkeg situation now right where all it's going to take is we. It was going to be this. You know our our thing was gonna, be the trigger they'll at thirty percent of academics. Come for to say you know it's bullshit and if enough people start saying it other people, Sir feel safe to say it. We wish for more pay,
feel safe. You know we took a risk, it, it's been fine for us to happens to be, but if more people take that risk and start speaking out, then there's change common. Now you work, you were I'm a mathematician and you that's your background and in fact Demia. That would appear at least to be something that is beyond all this stuff, because it's just dealing with number math itself mostly, it has not been touched by this, but there's this whole branch in there that's called the studies of science and technology and most what they go after is you know the this is or whatever the especially they go after biology and psychology, and they feel like they've, got a lot of inroads into that. We wrote the astronomy paper to try to push that all the way to a hard science. We've said that astronomy is sexist and can only be fixed by putting in queer horoscopes they thought that was a good project. They keep asking him to rewrite it yeah. They keep asking me to submit that. I got an email yesterday asking for that. One again, so
so we've come public, so with stuff, mostly where you see this stuff, hitting though they don't, I mean some people are saying that math is inherently got sexism racism, because I guess apparently women and minorities are going to be naturally bad at numbers is what they're, assuming I don't know what they're saying it's ludicrous, but they mostly go after education, so they say: oh look, the scores, the essay t, math scores or whatever for men. White men are higher than for for black men or something like that. Why could that? Well, you know. Maybe there are a lot of factors that go into that, but they don't give a about a lot of factors it's racism, so therefore education must be racist. Therefore, we need social justice initiatives in math education, that's exactly what they do and so then you have diversity math and I don't even know what that is. But it's not something that you see like mathematics, research level, it's something that you see at junior high School elementary school, that they're teaching your kids, which is why it's scary as hell. This is.
So is there a light at the end of the tunnel and would you I still think there's I think people hate this stuff, I think or getting sick I'd hate it the people's inside. I hate it too, though, but they're afraid yeah. I had this guy come up to me repeatedly last week. This guy he's got two Ph Ds, brilliant guy. He comes up to me repeatedly. What you did is so important so necessary, I can't talk about it. I'm sorry! I can't talk about it. I wish I could talk about it, but I talked to a lot of academics and but nobody saying the same thing. They know you got him, it's only a matter of time. One more event and they shake off the fear. I think it's close. I don't know what the next event is. I don't think it's more bogus papers. I think it's probably somebody getting fired that didn't deserve it or something like that. One more thing and people are going to be ready to shake this off. Why does this ideology infect tech companies and it seems to get them more than it gets? Anyone else know the what is it you should ask the more that I don't know him, though he's he's in there. I can
get a job and he just got one. I just told him the other day he just going well don't say, worries worked, all, definitely not they'll go after him, yeah. I don't. I don't know why it's in text so much, maybe there's some kind of silica, Valley. Connection there or whatever, where you know Silicon Valley is in you know the kind of Bay area. California, you've got a lot of the liberal hippie stuff that started out, as you were talking about in the 60s and 70s, so it's kind of in the water there in general. I would say that what you're seeing is that this stuff, as they have the big turn to making this applied, was in the 90s right, so they've had an entire generation of students that have just been really this stuff crammed down their throat. They really have taken over the education in the last ten years. It was just starting when I left academia in twenty ten that it was like. Oh we're going to focus on diversity. We have diversity. Committee commitments was going to get in the general curriculum, so you get more and more,
students that are getting educated in this. It is now going into the work place right. So if half your workforce in tech, because tech moves so fast, I'm just guessing why this might be a thing. Tech moves really fast, so you've got to have some fresh training go in there. If they've been educated with diversity stuff, cram down their throat the whole time and there's huge initiatives to try to you know: increase representation of women, in particular in in tech and these are seen, as you know, automatically good initiatives if there's been. This is the culture that that they're being educated in and then they take that culture to the workplace and think is what tech is about, then they're, surrounded by like minded people who encourage it. It's totally plausible that that what you've got a sort of a tech echo chamber, that's bouncing these things around and keeping it keeping it there. Here's another question: why is it that-
I mean it. Here's here's here's a scenario right. The scenario is universities are almost predominantly taught by people that are on the left. True, it's a massive. It's in the ninety percent range right. When and you have this sort of environment, of these nonsense? Ideas that are accepted, as fact and taught and put into published papers. Then you have a situation where the left routinely attacks itself right and devours itself right for not being left enough, you're always having people that are upset that someone is not progressive enough left wing people attacking left wing people right. You do not see that on the right, but you did that's kind of what the whole tea party movement was right, but they didn't do it in the Nick field because they didn't have power there, because they were an academic right. Well, yeah that shift started in the sixties and seventies. They started bringing a hearty field when what, but that was during the Obama administration. So
that's when what was the biggest fear for every republican congressman then was that they're going to get primaried from the right, so they were have some populist Yahoo GO agreement about whatever they scream about is going to be or to the right harder conservatism. Conservative movement, capital C capital M kind of thing, they're going to just drill. You know the reason that that the conservative politics aren't succeeding is because we're not conservative enough is that's the the prevailing view where I live in the SE same thing. As you see the universities but reversed in terms of polarization but there isn't that just an excuse for the lack of success. It is it's people excuse, combined with a commitment to the ideology, whether it's a conservative movement ideology, whether it's social justice scholarship, whatever happens to be-
right, but you see far more of these left on left attacks. Then you do right on red attacks. You do right now. Yeah should certainly except of course, for election time. Sure and people were trying to beat their opponents, sure sure sure It seems to be that there's somehow another related I mean I would like to look at how many people on the left will attack others. For not being aggressive enough, not being left enough. So I think it's a it's a panic right. You said this is the kind of behavior you see in a panic, a moral panic, for example, so Helen, the third person who worked on the project with helen- and I wrote an essay about a year and a half ago and talking about how the extremism on both sides is really the problem. In most people reject it and should fight it. Most of us are sensible people in the middle who hate this. In fact, data just came out showing that it's eighty percent of the population,
date, the fringes both sides yeah so and only eight percent, or on the left and twelve percent around the right of the fringe. However, that works out, and so we wrote this and we said that what's going on, actually we called it existential polarization. So you have this idea that everything is an existential crisis. So the far right, we'll start with M Cs that if the Democrats get power, oh it's open borders. The terrorists are coming in. Our entire way of life is going to be destroyed. Catastrophe catastrophe, oh no butler, is going. Ninety five genders quick. Stop the Democrats, no matter what and then you have the left. Oh my god. If they get power that everything's going to be racist, we're going to beating gays in the snow, it's going to be the worst thing in the whole world, that's actually kind of a joke, but but it's for real, though, that they think that the world is going to fall apart with the other side gets power, and so, when you have that kind of a situation, you have a panic, and you see
the slightest bit of advantage happening on the other side is just something to completely freak out about, and then what do you do? You say: well the only possible recipe to balance the scales to turn further. Our way if we go the middle, that puts the balance, if the right goes really far right and we on the left move toward the middle. Now the whole balance is moved right, so the only way to keep the balance close. The middle is if they go right, we go left right right then that's eat a balanced, but what that actually does is it. This is going to get nerdy hang on. That actually puts all of the weight on the outsides, and you think about a spinning thing right. It's got. Centrifugal force is happening. What's it trying to do is going to rip the spinning thing apart. If you have all the weight crammed in the middle it like a wheel, it doesn't come apart right now. Imagine if you had like two billiard balls- and you have like this big long. stick and there's two holes for the belly bars. They don't go in it like locked in there just sitting there you spend that's going to happen. There fly right off. Right
so you have all the weight on the outside and you start spinning a thing. So that's like the political conversations of dynamic is going to rip the thing apart. The more weight gets to the outside. So once I go into the fringe doesn't mean the other such go to the fringe. That's how you terra nation, apart that actually makes a lot of sense of you can conceptualize it like an object is really a damn good view to video floating around out there with Somebody takes a Jetta water in spins, a skateboard wheel until the centrifugal force gets so high from spending so fast it rips it apart. It's worth looking up, I don't know what the hell you search to find it, but It's a it's a powerful visual and you can see it as stuff moves to the outside. The centrifugal force goes up and up and up until finally, the thing, the structural integrity of the thing that spinning can't hold itself together. Anyone it rips apart well listen, gentlemen, and shout out to your friend. What is your name like ninety Helen Pluck rose. How about Helen Pluck rose like rose across the pond. Thank you guys were doing this or will appreciate
thanks for being here. I am in, and every show your support because we need support week. We can't do this without support. So thanks for having us my pleasure thanks for doing it, where can people see these things working? They read them. The best place to go is going to be to go to our filmmakers, you to page my Nena on the Youtube that just a an a n, a Y N, a n a why and the yeah. So on his you, two pages, some videos he's kind of playing with the footage these collecting for the documentary. On top of that, though, if you go to the v yeah we originally released, which is on the page, you can find it easily. There's the link to the Google Drive is linked to all of documents. We put out one area where this we explained every. What every paper does why we wrote it, what we were trying to show with writing the papers? What the problem is that we need to address and what we know what we think that this shows and what we can do. Yeah, it's all, except double through his Youtube Channel, we're kind of making that the central Hub- and so people can go there and explore and watch some more videos of us and well thanks for
here. This is a lot of fun again. I really appreciate what you guys are doing thanks man. Thank you, bye, everybody. Thank you! Every one for tuning into the show and thank you to primal kitchen, get Jouself free jar of chipotle. Online mail, my personal favorite, get it at primal, kitchen, dot, com, Rogan and just check out all the other amazing stuff. They have over at primal kitchen, dot com, so prime kitchen dot com Rogan go there and they will give you a free jar of chipotle lime, Mayo made with one hundred percent pure avocado oil cage, free eggs. There's no gluten, no grain, no sugar, no industrially processed oil. It adds a ton of flavor and makes any paleo Quito or other meal taste delicious, and thank you also to vital farms, pasture ray
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