William von Hippel is a professor of psychology at the University of Queensland. His new book "The Social Leap" is available now via Amazon.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ladies and gentlemen, how's everybody doing huh. This episode of the podcast is brought to you by zipper crude Do you need to hire somebody well if you need need to hire someone? you know that you probably low on resources. It's a fucking pain in the ass right. You don't have to be. Running around all these different job sites and checking resumes and shit well lucky for you there's a thing called Zip recruiter, an even luckier for you. You could try this shit out for free. What tell me more zip, recruiter, folks, Z, recruiter, doesn't depend on candidates, finding you it finds them for you. It has powerful matching technology that scans thous of resumes and identifies people with the right skills, education,
an experience for your job and actively invites them to apply. So you get qualified candidates fast n. You could post to over. One hundred job sites with with a single click. Oh, that is why zip recruiter has been rated number one by employ here is in the US and that rating comes from hiring sites on Trustpilot, with over one thousand reviews it right now. There's this podcast can try Ziprecruiter for free at this exclusive webaddressziprecruiter dot com, Slash Rogan, that ziprecruiter dot com, Slash, Rogan, Ziprecruiter, DOT, com, Slash Rogan, Zip, recruiter, the smartest way to hire yeah. That's right! We're also brought to you by the
cash app. Do you know? Well, if you don't, let me tell you say some of the cash app folks. The cash app is innovative and ingenious application available for both Iphone an android you can download it for free is the number one finance app on the on the app store. Would it also is is a thing called the cash card? You Yes, you can put the cash app in your fucking wallet with the cash card is the only debit card it offers you instant, rewards and comes packed with premium features that not even a credit card can offer like boosts with the cash cards boost program you save up to ten percent at whole foods. Chipotle shake Shaikhan and more of your favorite spots, even a dollar off coffee. Every time you swipe your cash card at coffee shops across the country, you can also direct deposit, your paycheck
right into the app it's a beautiful debit card, puts you in control of your money with extra in app safety features that let you pause your card with a touch and unlike a credit card, there's no fees ever and a credit check is not required to get one fuck. Other cards download the cash app now and get your cash card for a free visit, the app store or Google play market now, and, of course, when you download cash app enter the referral code, Joe Rogan, all one word: you'll get five dollars: cash apple send five dollars to Justin Brands, fight for the forgotten charity building wells for the pygmies in the Congo. There are also brought to you by simply safe home security. If you been thinking about getting a simply safe home security system, but you been waiting for the holidays when all the tech deals come out. You've made a smart move, because right now,
we can get you so wait deal on simply safe. If you today, you can get twenty five per of any new simplisafe system. It is an amazing deal and they rare really do anything like this, but they're doing it. For you, fuckers simply save is great protection for your home and you, family. They never make. You sign a contract, there are no hidden fees and would simply save around the clock. Professional monitoring, is just one thousand four hundred and ninety nine a month. It's a sweet system is really highly praised by many different reviews like scene that pc mag wire cutter, they all say simply save- is the best home security system date that there is that they and it is a really sweet deal. I mean one thousand four hundred and ninety nine a month is fucking, fantastic and and on top of it, twenty five percent off Guru protect your home today and get a great
deal on home security go to Simplisafe, dot com, Slash Rogan and save twenty five percent off your simplisafe system make sure you use that simplisafe dot com Rogan, so that you that they know that we sent you and hurry This deal ends November. The twenty six you do not want to miss. This is an awesome deal on an awesome system. That is, please save dot com, Slash Rogan S, I am P L. I s a f e simplisafe dot com, Slash Rogan, my guess. Yes, today is William VON Hippel and he is the author of a fantastic book called the Social Leap, the new do evolutionary science of who we are where we come from and what makes us happy really enjoy talking to him. Super interesting, really intelligent guy very in gay. Aging and absolutely brilliant, and I can't wait to read his book are:
Enjoy this conversation. So please welcome. He comes up Bill Bill Bill VON Hippel. The experience join my day, Joe Rogan podcast by name all day, hello, bill hi, what's going on man, I'm very excited to be here. I'm excited to have you here, Tom, the social leap? Yes, what's the socially I'll tell you all about it? Please do okay, so the story that I want to tell is basically how we got here, how we became human, and so that story begins about six or seven million years ago, when our ancestors left the rain forest, and so the question is: why would they leave and how they survive once they left and and that's what the socially pet? So it takes a second to get it all
out there: okay, yeah all right, so here's the story. So if you look back about seven million years, our ancestors and chimps, we had a common ancestor about that point in time, six or seven million years ago, and that common ancestor- we don't know exactly what it look like, but it was from. All we can tell is awfully close to today's chips, and so there, if you look at Jim's today, you can get a pretty good sense of what life was like then, and Jim's today are really interesting, they're, basically at the top of the food chain in the rainforest, there are super fast up in the trees super athletic and they because a travel groups, even amazing tree climbers, like leopards, won't try to attack them in trees. It's just the way, it's too too dangerous too fast. But if you look at the gym on the ground, can't even markets need. It is kind of cute little stumbling along thing and then the question: is. Why would an animal that runs the show in the canopy leave the rainforest for the Savannah and then how would it survive once it did that, and that's that's the story of this book and then how that manifests itself to where we are.
Hey some really my goal. I'm a psychologist! I want understand why by the way we are, and so in trying to figure that out, I said: well, let's take a look back. All the way to our comma ancestors and see some of the key events and how they might have had an influence on how we are today. So the first question is: why would we leave the trees right here? We are we're dominant position where food on the ground. Why would we ever take that risk and the basic story? There is the great african Rift Valley, I'm not sure, if you've familiar with at all but Basically it runs down from up at the Red Sea down to the coast of Mozambique, and you can think of it like a g exit. Zipper in all the world sits on these tectonic plates and sometimes they crash into each other, like India smashing into asian crates Emily, sometimes they literally tear apart and Africans, tearing apart at the great African Rift Valley, so that plate that has
Molly in Ethiopia, Tanzania, Kenya, that's moving off to the lower right. The rest of Africa is moving off to the upper left Anne. I got into no idea why it's been going on for quite awhile, but one of the consequences that is, that the e Africa starting to rise up slowly bit by bit and when it rises up the rainforest dry out, and so basically, what you have is a situation where our ancestors were on the east side of that Rift Valley and it started to dry out and now they're in a situation where they've got this great lifestyle, their dominant position, but now they're pushed to forced on to the ground, increasingly more and more because there's more and more ground unless less and less rainforest- and so how did they survive that? What do they do in order to make that work? And this is what? What time is this? How many millions of years ago, six or seven, six or seven does this coincide with the law? When was the jump of the human brain size word we'll get to that. So it's a super, interesting question about why that happened as well. So, basically, if you track
across the next three million years? How did our ancestors survive when their basic the chimpanzees on the open savanna and you can get a hint of how they did it there's one chimpanzee group that does live on the Savanna in Senegal and they they show some differences between themselves, another chance to travel a slightly larger groups. They share more nicely with each other, which is interesting, that's kind of a human trait as well, and they also avoid open space like they're, just kind of trying to stay near the trees as much as possible and so on. And if you look at other aid, they're, not AIDS, but other primates are on the Savannah like Savannah Baboons, there only monkeys so they're, not as sharp as chimpanzees are, but they have a similar strategy, large groups, to try to protect themselves and lots of eyes to look out for predators, and they do fine on the Savannah. And so what I suspect happen is for the first few million years. Basically, what I've got is this chimp like animal, that's kind of skirting the edge
Savannah nowhere near the top dominant position. They used to be and just kind of noodling around, and that takes. I suspect that takes us for about the first three three and a half million, and if you look at who we are then for us to look at the Cannes severance. So it's if you look at one of them, you'd think it belongs in a zoo. It looks almost like a chimpanzee and her chin brain in answer. The first part of the question is about three and eighty grams and australopithecus brain is about four hundred fifty grams. Some three million years of a in an all we've got forty seventy grams. Some. Why do we get so smart? Why do we take off in the next few million years and what is it that Australopithecus did, that that help to survive, and- and why do I call that the socially than on kind of tied together and the basic story is that by this point osteopathic has has become by people? We can talk about how that happened, if you like, and so because by people their waste is now stretched out there, their musculature like if you look at chimpanzee
next, they aim upward because of course, chips climbing all the time Australopithecus is more ladder like we are we're, basically completely lateral, because things are side to side. As far as we're concerned, it's hard climb a tree, but it's a whole lot easier to do a lot of other things and much more limber shoulder. We have much more limber wrist, all that sort of thing and a lot of that was in place by Australopithecus, so once they became buy Pidal, they gained a lot of these qualities and then the question is: why did those qualities matter? Well, if you watch a chimpanzee, throw it's terriblr at it, even though they're stronger than you and I are pound for pound by a sizable margin when they throw their inept, they can't gain very well and they typically use two hands because they're not lined up well to throw if you watch, a really good thrower, like you know, gridiron football player, baseball player or hunter gatherer, throw you know, it's a full body motion you step forward. The other leg is this rotation in the very last minute you bring your wrist through
well, what that does is. It creates an enormous amount of elastic energy across your muscles. These ligaments and the end of that throw for human is like the snapping of a rubber band. Some James can't do that, but not lined up properly, but I still think it's got to the point where they could probably do that pretty well, and so now I am just purely a by product of Ipl isn't because it stretched out their whole body and they don't they're, not climbing as much anymore, so their musculature is more lateral, which would have been helped them for throwing. So now you get to a point where they have access to the the most important military invention in history, which is the capacity to kill at a distance. So if you and I are running around the Savannah, Anna Lion attacks us and we got fifty of our best friends. We could kill it with our bare hands, but uh One of us are going to die in the process right 'cause. I think, let's make it a hundred
Yes, even the Hiram there were, you know with a bunch of now Shayanna be super cough. You know you look at a more other people, you wouldn't worry very much, but but even if we could so we know what we're doing we're all armed with knives, whoever Gazans first script right right and so the cup. The killer, the distance that allows a larger force of weaker individuals to comply to easily defeat us Robert right and so once they gain this capacity to throw if they are attacked by line. This is something like that, whereas in the past they did just scattered for the trees. Now they could throw. At defend themselves. Now, throwing rocks at a line is going to be in the belly of a slightly annoyed line in about three minutes right right, but fifty hostile to the scenes throwing rocks at lines is a totally different story, and so it's that this is the daddy. Here's, the throwing hypothesis that what what changed everything was throwing and the reason it changed. Everything is it because, as a it was the first read
and we should have any effective, collective action because it's not a good strategy when you're on your own. It's not a good strategy. If I do it in the rest of the group, his head for the trees, but it's a great strategy. If we all do it to other and so for the first time in history, the group's goals in our history. In our line, the primate line, the grew Scholes aligned with the individual goals, which is, let's cooperate and work together to try to drive away these predators now it. If you look at a lion and you look at someone throwing rocks, it still seems like a really big ask right to drive that thing away or kill it throwing rocks, and so, but Barber Isaac was one of the first anthropologist to propose this hypothesis quite awhile ago, went back and looked through historical record and these extraordinary stories of how effective people are, throwing rocks and so in. When the Portuguese went to the canary islands to try to subjugate it they rock up with you, know: armor guns, crossbows, and this is in the like fourteen something and all the locals were on with with stones
and despite the fact that the Portuguese are there in army trained, you know ready to shoot and in their armor they were just decimated by the locals, throwing rocks at them and the stories happen, over and over again, and when you read these accounts are extraordinary. I can read you some examples from here. They just happened: Australia, it happened in the canary islands, it happened elsewhere. They just throw rocks incredibly accurately incre really hard and really fast. So and there's you know, accounts in Africa Basic killing a zebra with one blow her rock to the head. So I got a a picture of Julie, pitcher, yeah, good rock right who gets very accurate at it yeah. So do you think they? They must have practiced constantly yeah, and so what I suspect is it we evolved to like to throw rocks and so from now, if my son is a for example. When he was eighteen months old, we would be walking back to her. That's if he saw a rock on the street, he pick it up and start trying to throw it.
And my wife sing, not only in the rocks. It's only going to cause trouble for some thinking. Well, maybe I'll develop a good arms on the go ahead, let him anyway, but but secondly, he freakin wants to. This is like something inherently fun right right and I think all humans enjoy throwing and it's it's stunning how good you can get it with practice. Some on we read the Ohio State Fair this before my son was born and that's walking by one of the stalls were you can throw in a radar gun, and so I thought his. I was just started. To date, my wife and I thought here's a perfect chance to impress are right and how how much? Oh, I am so I said hey when I stop and I'll throw some balls here in this net 'cause I had never thrown I'd, know how fast I could so she's like sure- and I was I played like Little league right, so I throw the ball and it's like fifty miles an hour, an pretty impressed, because that's sounds fast. Then this, like kid, shows up next to me, gotta be twelve years old, probably weighs eighty five pounds. This total gangel, not a muscle in his body, and he just starts freaking thrown ball after ball. Like sixty five miles an hour and I'm like fuck, I mean
he's not going to be impressed with this, like you and twig. Next to me is kicking my ass right, and so I pick up the last ball. I freaking throw it as hard as I can hurts. My shoulder flies off at an odd angle, doesn't hit anything and it's like fifty seven miles an hour that little guy who's, like literally the size and also perfect, as was only sixty five and hit the target every time, and so it's obvious said its scale. It's practice that would have made you good at this, and if your life depends on it, you're going to do it. Well, that makes sense the coming from martial arts background like like coordinated movement or at the end of it. The snap makes sense that this technique is so critical, even though a larger person, someone with better technique, could have more of an impact with that. So the throwing arm. I had read this: if that was one of the high this is this several hypothesis why the human brain doubled over a period of two million years. Another one was cooked. Meat right yeah, I figured out a way to get more new instead of meat, that's running it over fire right! So that's a little bit down
so here we are three one slash two million years ago and so for the first time we put some prep on ourselves to have an advantage to be smarter, so imagine your zebra, you know what the hell good is it to you to be on. You got, runs What are you going to do with that brain right? But it's a big. It's a big cost, our brains. Twenty percent of our metabolic energy, whether we're doing math or watching tv, it's a bright, constant rain, and so what our ancestors? Why would they pay for that train? Now, just recently there was a paper. The came out maybe three months ago now on on the new brain expansion gene they found or they think that's what it is called much to an AL and it turns out about twelve fifteen million years ago. It was an accident, the duplication of that gene on our genome and it, but it was ineffective and it just sat there doing not. Now that's a great way that evolution works right. It accidentally doubles a gene because then you don't, you can mess with it and the old jeans still doing the job right. So it sat there for nine million years in our line till about three million years ago, around Australopithecus, and then it duplicated it's often came online again and with that gene seems to do. Is it
makes our brain remain as stem cells for longer, which means a lot more to before they run away and start becoming neurons, and so, if I had to guess I'd, a that that probably that gene coming online probably happened many times in the past and every time it happened, the past was more cost and it was worth, and so what's the chimp going to do with a bit more brain and just means more calories and what is he gained from it, but now working together now that we have collective action, all sorts of things open up, we could we could divide division of labor, also hey man. You do this and I'll do that, because Australopithecus they've got seventy grams in a chimp. They can't do things like that they can all throw rocks at the same time, that's not rocket science, but all the kinds of things that came neck probably were enabled by that process of us coming together, deciding to work together and cooperate. So if you look at chimpanzees, you don't cooperate very well. For example, one of the activities where they sort of cooperates with the
monkeys, and so the log gather round and they'll see some monkeys in the trees that come in from every angle. It's not very coordinated. It's kind of a wild free for all, but what's interesting about it is that when the hunts over- let's say you just sat there, the whole time and watch and I'm working my ass off chasing these monkeys got one you come up and bug before and I don't I don't willingly handle you like keep nudging me till I share, but I'm just I can share with you if you helped, as if you didn't, I don't make any distinction and you'll never establish effective groups if you can't reward those who participate compared to those who don't even little kids, four year old kids when you give them games to play and they aren't sticker. If you didn't play you, don't when you come up and ask you, don't get it that you played, even if you didn't do your job right, but you tried from you can have a sticker, so it's you, medially get that that you get rewarded for your activities as part of the group. Gemstone seem to have that. That's fascinating good, but because chimps really do have a sense of fairness, though, and that that's one of the issues that happened with the the cap
champ that attacked the man who brought the birthday cake to you know that story. I don't know awful story from these this couple. They kept a chimp as a pet for a long time and then, as it got old it got a little violent and they had to bring it to a sanctuary and they brought it sanctuary and they would go to visit in the champ, would remember them and they went to visit and it was on his birthday. So they brought him a cake and the other champs in the sanctuary were furious, that they didn't get. The cake as well. They didn't think it was fair or they're angry, so they figured out. So left the gate open. They got out and tore this guy apart because he didn't give them a cake. So there's uh most famous example that is actually with capuchin monkeys, which aren't nearly as smart as chimps, and it's this amazing study by Sarah Brosnan Frans to wall.
And if you want to see it in action to wall, has it on a TED talk, it's really quite something to see and what they do in that study. Is they teach these capuchin monkeys too? They give him pebble and they teach the captions to return the pebble and they give it a cucumber slice, and so it's learning the game for a cucumber slices. So if you wanted to ask, does the monkey think that's a fairly well, the answer has to be: yes right, 'cause, it's doing that for cucumber. So now you and I are both monkeys and we're in our cage. I returned the pebble. I get a cucumber now you return the pebble and they hand you a great capuchins, much prefer grapes over cucumbers, and so then what happens next. Well, I've been this behavior for cucumbers, but as soon as you get a great I'm like yeah, I'm not playing anymore, and you watch this tape and the caption it it the they give you a great they give me the queue come in the thing. Looks total
pissed it starts pounding on the ground, throws the cucumber back in these driven or it's amazing, yeah. Well, so the question is: what does that mean? Why would they care about fairness in that way, and I think the answer to that question is sexual selection and so the key to say selection. Is it doesn't matter what everybody's getting so long as I'm getting it back out as much as everybody else, but at the second that you're starting to get more than I have well then, whatever females in our group she's going to pick you before she picks me, and so everything is relative we may think now. Why do you care so much about what other people are doing? Why don't you just be happy what you got but literally there? You find out that the guy in the text, Judy over salaries, twice here's your salary sucks, because it makes sense because we literally she's going to choose him now before she chooses you comparisons. Thief of joy, yeah, that's exactly right! It's a it's! A really unfortunate fact, because some it matters a lot like, for example,
Imagine I invented drug and I say here take a dose in little double your iq instantly, you're going to feel like a genius but unbeknownst you, everybody, two doses. You walk out you're, going to feel like a dumb ass, because people saying stuff you can't understand right so then would matter right, but the the killer cases are things where, where it's only just a res So, for example, there's this amazing study where they showed that peep who are making minimum just above minimum wage are the ones who don't want you to raise minimum wage that the most against it now. Why would that be well right now, they've got a slight advantage over people making minimum wage the day, minimum wage it's raised now, they're, not any better off than anybody else. So, even though they are the most likely to benefit from it because they may lose that job they have enough to take minimum wage there actually against it, because it gives them a slight advantage over. You know the guy next door. This is based on one study 'cause. I would think that the people that would be most against it will be the people that are hiring folks fair enough. It's only it's only looking at income, so the boss probably feels even
more negative all. But if you look at people's income and their and their feelings about raising minimum wage, that people are making minimum wage wanted, hope the people one notch above do not, and then, as the higher you go, they do again really yeah wow up until you get to the point where employing people and some employers want to raise it right, I mean- and some don't there's huge argument about that now when it comes back to the competition monkeys, does. The same effect happened whether it's a female or a male. I don't know. I mean so things and people argue like crazy about exactly what this means. I don't think the monkeys have a sense of fairness like you and I have, but I do think they have a sense hold on you getting more than I am. I can't let this happen. Otherwise, I'm screwed and there's lots of great evidence that if you let that happen, you're screwed, but do the females have that same sense of competitiveness that they need to have the exact same thing? Those other bitches are having that they get angry. Well, here's the thing
it depends on whether you're mating system is gonna, be a bonding or not, and so, if you're a frog or lots of different frogs, not all of them a laughing tree frog or if your a elephant seal or something well all the females made with the best male, because his job is just sex and so every email can have the best one for the either in the situation, and I got a choice like the elephant seals. He controls a recurring right or in a situation where they just listened all the croaking, and then they got you the best croaker your dad mom, but if you're bond like humans or like lots of other animals, birds, etc. The then what you need is you've got competition on both sides, so she's always competing to get the best male and he's always competing get the best female. Now this reasons why male male competition is always a bit more intense than female female competition, but both of them are there and the more monogamous the system gets. The more both sides compete for each other interesting. So what about in the case of like Beno BO,
where there so poly. The nobles are super interesting system. So you got lots of polyamorous animals, but nobles are intra their chips are also so, if you look at him one of the great ways to look at our ancestors and what their lives were like. As you look in your trousers and the size, testicles tells you a lot about what sort of mating system your ancestors had so guerrillas have tiny little testicles and the reason that they have such tiny testicles as they use their huge body to drive away the other males and then all the females are in his hair am so he doesn't need big testicles because you he's in sperm. In order to inseminate the females he's got, it doesn't take much sperm to inseminate anyone female and are really expensive tissue, to make, and if you want a pair and you land on him, you know they're uncomfortable to right, and so then you look at our testicles and they're quite a bit bigger than a gorilla's, but they're nowhere near the size of a chip or been both. You know they're. Basically, in many ways, almost the same beast and so of the socially quite different, and they have a system,
they basically have to wash out the guy who was there before him, and so it takes really big testicles to have sperm competition, so their competition isn't by fighting each other. Although there's a degree of that too, they know full well that when she comes into estrus into heat, though gonna be a line and and if you're fifth in line- and you can watch everybody out before you, my friend at the Dat Wash everybody has a funny way of putting it- so they're meets, our trip did so this this size is directly proportional to the number of promiscuous females. Well, that's what is the promiscuity, the mating system it's a look at our meeting system. We clearly involved to be largely monogamous, but not entirely. I are necessarily large for a look for an entirely monogamous, be Sis and so we're a little bit on the wash the guy out ahead of us
as many people to make arguments that we are monogamy is socially reinforced. It's not natural! Look! If you look at Hunter gathers and and so the best, the best way that we get a sense of world, what what did we have all to do is to look at the remaining on together societies, particularly if you look at what are called immediate return on togethers, so they're people who eat today what they killed. Today he got a lotta togethers once they left the equator, they could store food and everything chain, for them and they actually in many their behavior. They look a lot like us and we can come back to it if you like, but if you look at Hunter gathers around the equator, they are typically immediate return, kill eat, and so those guys tend to be tend to be. There's always, of course, human differences were super variable species, but they tend to be serially monogamous and so some people pair up for life lots of people of four for five. Seven years and then break apart pair up again, and so you have sequence of children with the secrets of
right, but but largely monogamous not entirely and monogamous during those time periods largely- and we know everything- and we've ever described as monogamous. When we do the dna we now find their not entirely, but they're mostly interesting, so have you ever had sex at dawn? What did you think of that? No offense, but I think it's total crap, Chris Ryan. Do you hear that shit everybody rocking on your book bro? What do you think is crap about
I don't think the system works that way the explain to people that may may not know what we're doing. I haven't read that book now, since it came out. So let me remind remind me the thesis to remember the idea is that we evolved in these small tribes of people that essentially shared sexual partners, that's bullshit, and so the thing is that what makes you say that so confidently? Well, I don't know I shouldn't say quite so confidently you're! Absolutely right! I believe that's bullshit, how's, that why do you believe that's bullshit, because so human beings have very clear, evolve, jealousy systems and they're, not just a product of the world that we live in today. You can see jealousy among Hunter gatherers as well. Now the thing is they get jealous about different things: 'cause, of course, men and women are slightly different on them, but they both get jealous by infidelity. Now, that's not to say that the book is incorrect. About some societies in some places, because one of the interesting things about humans is our flexibility, and so you can create a system and someone togethers have where there's a lot of that and one of
there's some really interesting ones where, literally once the woman gets pregnant, she then starts to sleep with all the other males, because she thinks her baby will gain the qualities of all the men that she sleeps with. So I'm not trying to claim that we're always monogamist, because absolutely that's on track, but I do think that the dominant system is one of serial monogamy and I the reason I think that that's the dominant system is. This is kind of the deal that we made, whereby the males go out and do the hunting the females go out and do gathering and that's basically universal. She tends to cook for him and that comes back to the fire point you made, which we can come back to and and so they share resources and and he's happy to share resources and who is best to kind of sort of look out for kids. I mean human males. Aren't we don't take as much care as human females do, of our kids, but we're much better than the other great apes, and so that level of investment is going to make his tends to be to the degree?
but he believes it is the father of the kids. Now you have societies where he doesn't know that really are poly amorous like that by all means. I don't know what percentage they are and it could even be there more common than I believe. But when that happens, the systems tend to change it a little bit and he's a little bit less willing to look out, try to help out kids other than to do her, a favor and less. The kid looks a lot like himself Now? What about why? Having a system of biological system where jealousy comes up? What makes you think that that somehow or another negates the idea of polyamorous relationships. Well, it does suggest that they're, not r, default because it doesn't more likely suggest that it encourages competition, which is just natural when they think I envy instead of jealousy, and so, if I'm jealous, I'm upset that My wife slept with somebody else last night. He could be alone
wife. I don't envy a thing about it. I don't want anything he owns, but I'm jealous of her behavior, I'm protective of what she's done, so there's a wonderful experiment, David Bus has run at University Texas. Are you jealous of the man as well you're, not just jealous of her behavior? jealous of this other mail that gets to have sex with your wife and could not possibly encourage competition and encourage meant to be more aggressive or more ingenious or just create encouraged. Creativity and courage, better hunting skills, so you attract more women. I mean all those things seem to be going to natural I'd agree with all that bad phrase, it a little bit differently. So this is wonderful study out of the Philippines, where they met huge number men's testosterone when they were single and then they they did a few years and measure it again after they were, they were still single or other married or now they're married and have kids and I'm
sure it wasn't a psychology study 'cause. We can't afford to do that. It was probably some medical thing, but they used to to answer this interesting psychological question, which ones have who is most likely to get the girl by their original testosterone levels and what happens when you do? well. The guys who got married in the intervening few years had higher testosterone than the guys who didn't so yeah you're, absolutely right, we're out there competing with other males in order to get the girl and there's lots and lots that goes on there. Tons of really interesting things, but what's interesting is once we get the girl are testosterone drops, and so, if we once we partner up and if we're in a alchemist relationship, not poly amorous but in a monogomous relationship, are testosterone drops and then it drops again if we have kids and testosterone is a great hormone for getting out there and being competitive with other guys, it's not a great hormone for being nurturant for your children and it's not a great hormone for being faithful to your partner, and so I think that we evolved to compete with other males in order to get
the mating game. So if you look at our ancestral dna, you know how you can track, or male and female ancestry through my dick on real DNA. On the other side, and why you'll see that we have more female ancestors in mail, not quite two to one, but I think it's close to that, and so what does that tell us? Well, lots of guys are getting left out of the mating game entirely, and lots of guys are inseminating lots of different women. So all those things that you said are absolutely true and all that pushes us for competition, but part of what I believe goes on as part of that competition that we engaged in was in order to get the girl to get into that relation. Keep the first place. Could I stop you there, because I think that if you're you're going have a study on testosterone, testosterone, you you have to have a study on lifestyle, I mean it did If you get married and you have children, one of things that happens, is you become less active? You you, be you don't exercise as much, you don't sleep as much. All those things have a pretty radical effect on hormone production absolutely, and it could well be
see that you know you always have to have Approximal mechanism whereby evolution plays its game right. So the distal causes as an evolved species, test ostrom from port to get us into the mating game, but it's less useful ones were in it. Well, all you could would you could? All you have to do is have a system more by those things tend to down regulate testosterone. Exactly like you said, you know, those things are going to happen once you get partnered up and so but enjoy when our ancestors partnered up there still out hunting everyday. You know we made right now we don't have studies on with them. This is the we don't we. The issue is that I'm having with this is we have studies on the general health and testosterone and hormonal health of sedentary humans yeah, I mean I I would like to know what their lifestyle is. I would like to know what they're doing and I'm sure that seem to make any sense to me, because one thing that everybody knows, is that you get dad bod right, that's dad by what is dad bought. Dad- buys a guy who works all day comes home, sits on the couch, probably eats food. You probably shouldn't eat, hangs out with
Kids doesn't get a whole lot of exercise works, probably doesn't sleep much as he should that. That's a to me, that's a symptom of poor health and fitness it's not a symptom or ancestors ever experience, but it's not. This is not necessarily an indication of any sort of evolutionary benefit of having low testosterone, because we demonstrated for sure that when people don't get sleep and when they don't get exercise, their testosterone, rob. So those are two things that absolutely happen to get married and have children, and the only I would say, is the times of the time span of this study is only for a few years. That's even worse the thing about having this kind of a study in making these kind of kind of conclusions based on I mean we can with the see we know these mechanisms are in place. We already know there's natural facts of sedentary lifestyle, lack of sleep and the the
are your hormone production drops, your body suffers, you become less healthy, and this is. This is not indeed indicating monogamy. This is just indicating poor health. This is not like an evolutionary advantage to having low testosterone, because it helps you raise children. You can have high testosterone still be a good dad and Ray children still have friends that scene. Of course, all the markings are bell. Curves right yeah. I heard you are the harder it gets, but I would say my part. The problem having is is drawing conclusions on this one study and stating them as if they're facts so you're. Actually, right, I I, if I say it's a fact: it's certainly overstated because we only know the prom, with almost all of our studies, exact when you point out we've but among us right right, we don't have and select. The sex. Studies are perfect. Example, like things like female orgasm. What role does it play? Well, you need really good data on Hunter gatherers to know the answer to that question. If you look at Hunter gathers, they don't have dad. But right there all running and whether Fathers are not because they're out there hunting every day are gathered every day, very physically active. So if I, if I oversaw that, my
because you have the right, I suspect, though, that you'd find the same, thing. I don't know it it's all we got right now, but how can you suspect it? I mean it's just there's no data. And there is no data. It's just that when you look at these guys of. I have a friend of mine who he was How do you say the name that the Yanomami in the animal livvie, Bolivian whether in Venezuela, Brazil yeah, and he spent some time with them, and you see these people in the the lifestyle they lived there, all barefoot wandering into the jungle? They have these crazy looking feet toes splay out, because they're just constantly gripping the floor with their toes they're probably could choke you with you know, and these people this looks so fit and healthy in their in their 50s sixties and seventies and they have their shirt off and ripped and super fit same old. If you look hides Tanzania. Any of these groups, the young more interesting because our hunter or cultural, so there are
the doing a little bit of gardening as well, but they're they're, they're ripped in strong and they don't have a b c d problem yeah, and so all I would say is that the same thing whole the one thing that we found in humans in our modern culture where we have these data is, if you're married and have kids but you're still looking around your t hasn't gone down as much then you're going to point out, quite rightly that well maybe that's a different kind of person. Then the person who marries and isn't looking around- and so it's all confounded super to do. Experiments on these things will be a lot better off. When we've got, is you know, we're losing the the world's last time together is are disappearing, yeah and- and it's not easy to collect what kind of data but they're doing lots of genetic work with these people right now, all over Africa 'cause. You know, there's got tons of kinetic data now on european dissent in east asian descent, but almost none on Africans, and so that's a huge project anyway and so for all. I know, they're working on hormones and other things as well yeah,
I mean the reason why I'm asking about this is you are so readily dismissing your so willing to dismiss that Sir John Donne Bear with a lot of the facts that are laid out as facts in the book? Don't really hold up, and I'm in I wish I'd read it more recently, and so I can go. Through the details, with some really good reviews by anthropologists and by people who work in you know sexual studies and stuff like that, going through the details we ready as we have in this evolutionary center center of psychology and evolution, and we read it and went through it and we weren't convinced I'm embarrassed to admit. I can't remember the deed, Chris, if very smart guy, his good friend mother, it's also a great book. It is a great book. I would love to see him debate with those folks, I'm sure he probably has. He probably has We know that all these things that we're talking about are heavily debated yeah, so my colleague Rob Brooks is a wonderful evolutionary. Biologists in Australia loves that book. So the fact that I think it's bullshit
obviously one person's opinion when I dismiss that argument, other people might say well, look, there's a lot of cultures that they do have much more like, system? I told you about where they had sex with lots of men after they have their baby. You, human, so flexible. We can do all those things we just change the nature of how we do things, the Soci delete that I'm arguing about is not this pair bonding thing. It's about how our groups came together to engage in collective action, so principle, on agnostic on this issue. I just happen to disagree with that. I happen to feel like no. I think we made these deals and so to come back to the study of the David Bus did that I was starting. Tell you about so bus. Has this he's got when he came along people thought that Two sexes had similar levels of jealousy for infidelity and David was like well look this inseminations, internal and so men should is a lot more worried about her sleep thing with somebody else. Then women should be because he men never know for sure. If they're the Father, they can't see it happen
whereas you know, if you're a salmon, you can say: ok, I'm the debt. I just watch that, but females in internal, but they know they're the mother, that's not their concern. They should be more concerned about things like his given her. Resources to help her raise the kid and things like that, and so what bus found is, if you ask people this, What would bother you more imagine your wife having sex with somebody that she just met for the first time, having this great time and doing all these different funky things with them and then never do it again or your wife developed You know ongoing emotional connection with somebody. She never touches him. He never touches her, but they talk and have shared their feelings and stare deep. Each each other guys. What would bother you more and you ask men and women that question so what would, in your case would buy the more to have your wife to know she had this one off affair? Fling sex only didn't care about the guy or she developed a sort of emotional bond with somebody never touches it. That's a good question. I really have to
think about that, it's not only because nobody likes either of them. No yeah, because it's a matter of time before that do get send that's a mail box is checked. I know what it's in this case the guarantee right, it's a guarantee that they never never got out. Never too long, as he doesn't talk about me that problem those guys of the title is and where your, where have they said the pool, I would do so much better treat right right. Well, this little weasels on average men are more bothered by sex the one offset, women are more bothered by the emotional emotional connection. Contestants reduction could lead to him, leaving her well also him leaving her directing his resources, yeah and so so mind you every time we talk about gender differences super important keep mine there heavily overlapping bell curves right. So it's never how to present this way and accept like do you have this organ or something right, but if you psychologically, it's always overlapping, but on this is a big affect men on average are much more by
bothered by the one on sex and women on average are much more bothered by the emotional connection. Yeah, that's fascinating, 'cause! I was reading something about inappropriate emotional relationships that people have at work and at this is an issue with people that work together. They developed these. You know office friendships that lead. Too inappropriate emotional relationships and I was like well. This is I've never worked in an office. So I'm listening to this a reading this rather and MIKE what a strange world that as I get it, though I get it like. There's a guy and he's married in a gallon she's married, but they meet at work and they staring each others eyes all day and they go to lunch and maybe they even hold hands every now and then they become. This word crosses a line like you, alot of hug people. When you hold hands, that's fucking, hence that skin to skin. It is serious, it's it's again! It concern you if your partner yeah,
it's also going to concern you as a mere fact that you see this kind of thing. This deep conversation happening all that because think about it. If we involved to basically part for a while, then there's always gonna be the chance that for so long it's gonna be the one of which is years away serial, monogamy and both males and females game. From not putting all their eggs into the same genetic basket of my part of my wife part, is it with you for awhile should get a certain kind of offspring and then maybe it'll be a great thing, but maybe when the situation changes there are. You know tomorrow's world some either with guy, would be handy in some way, and so maybe she's better partnering with me. Next interesting, yeah It is fascinating when you break it down that it really does become, there's a biological reason for these behaviors and these the motive and for the jealousy and all these things that there's there's a history of biological history all this stuff and and we don't know what time together is how they would answer that question
so we can only just assuming that the right we're providing is general. But for me those kinds of things suggest that we invite we've all done a lot of long term monogamous, Sir stances that may have been cereal and that was certainly fooling around. But if we're poly and this, like the book says, we'd have bigger balls. What balls are so big the compared to a chimp, they're small yeah, but champs are demeanor things big with them. Well, no arpino! They have way bigger than theirs right. I think I tiny little large Paul all smaller. We get in the way right when the here's, the thing about so June, beings copulate for an extraordinarily long period of time, and and we also this cryptic ovulation. You know where she's not showing you that she's in heat, so many champs aren't interested unless she is at enormous swelling on her vagina and then they're like. Oh, that's super track
now I say suburban about but nobles because a well they do have only sex and all the time right, the fun fun right, yeah, they're, all sorts of funky, you orgiastic kinds of things. We is there's a when I taught at Ohio State University that the zoo there has a great bone bugs of it and you bring your kids through and there's a series watcher going on and the kids like him and stuff. You know yeah, there's a lot of issues that won't happen, nobles because of that right and they're pretty interesting, and so the thing is that those kinds of things to show you that it's complicated right, any kind of straightforward answer that it's going to it's absolute yeah yeah yeah and I apologize if I gay I no don't, and so any for the but back to this issue. So if we had a total but no Champ kind of system. I don't think we have all of those systems of jealousy because, what's what's to be gained by that we're not making these long term park
Why would you get these differences again? Whenever I bring? Chris? Is book up in one slash two to defend its is having a couple of times a little last year. I haven't read it in at least two years, and I have to go back and I rolled back over five years ago it, but I want it, came out when my friends, wife got ahold of it. My friend, got it and my friend's wife got all of and she threw a right, not trash. She read like a paragraph or two and she's like fuck this book. A lot of women react that way, and I can't remember yeah sorry, I just don't have it loaded up whatever so when these chimp, like creatures, from millions of years ago, slowly started walking, upright and started moving into the grasslands and making making experiments and traveling away from the jungle
this coincided with the development of the throwing arm and this could because they started walking upright. When did this? Did the meet aspect can come along, so they don't control fire. It's all right. These can do that. So now we go for we're now about three and a half million years ago. You got in now go forward. To about a little less in two million years ago, to get to homo erectus, so one to get to Houma rectus. We now gotten an ancestor that literally, if it went to the zoo, would say: well it's a kind of rough hewn guy but you think it's a person and not somebody who belongs behind glass. So a chimp brain is three hundred and eighty Australopithecus four hundred and fifty and Houma Rectus, nine hundred and sixty. So you got doubling brain size in mind, it's a bigger being. So it's not quite as big a dramatic of it changes you think, but along with that comes all sorts of capabilities? Now you write about this book catching fire. Richard Wrangham argue that what enabled that? So, if you look at the God of Iaeger
or a chimpanzee in their brain. They got a lot of gut for a little bit of brain because it takes a lot digestion to keep a little bit of rain going, we have a tiny cut for a huge brain and rang Amargas, and I think quite rightly that the only way you can achieve that is by releasing more nutrients from your food and the only way you can really more nutrients from your food is by cooking it. So when he made that argument, he thinks it goes back to the beginning of homo erectus and I suspect, he's right at this point when he made. The argument is only back to remember half a million years three, seven hundred and fifty thousand it's already back to a million years ago we found in caves in South Africa evidence of control of fire, and so it'll probably keep getting pushed back 'cause. You know that perhaps hard to find so this was you say, half million years, and now it's back to a million million years, and he made that prediction when it wasn't even that far back in a million years ago, even though they're not technically, it's not homosapien, now we're still at home erectus,
and so they started a one point, nine or so one point seven million years ago, and one point nine, I think, and what Houma rectus could now do now remember what the argument is. Is this social leap? It's this collective action that not only protects us on the Savannah, but sets us on this new pathway. It creates this noon. Ish, it's the cognitive Nish, although I think of it as a social, cognitive Nish, because it's the working together that gives you all these potential advantages to get smarter and so now that, when that gene sitting in our head, if it kicks into gear those and- to work in and it leads to cranial expansion, those animals we have, it will have an advantage because they can coordinate with each other and so they can remember- hey man- you help me out last time, but you weren't so yeah. I can count on you song, avoid your I'm sticking with you right. They could do a lot of things with that brain power and by the time you get to home. Rectus in the brain power is double. We see all sorts of super interesting things so before homo erectus. When you look at or tools. That's called an older one tool and it's basically a barely sharpened rock, and you know
never find an older one tool to very far away from where it was quarried and made like you know. You look at the rock and the chips and not far away is where it's lying on the ground Houma rectus made a much nicer tool. It's bifacial. It took a lot energy to make it when we teach modern, anthropologists or that students or whatever, to make 'em, and you put him in F Mri magnet where it can measure metabolism in your brain as you go, you see that it takes a lot of frontal. Lobe, functioning in order to make one, because it's a lot of plant, how am I going to hit it next to make this thing just right compared to an old? on tool to make those doesn't take much frontal function. I just whack it there and it will be sharp and so So, first of all, we know Houma Rectus invented that tool this acheulian tool with his bifacial hand, axe second of all, and one one of the cool is finding there's some interesting work in one two million year old site in India by Kerry Shipton, where he finds that the
the production of these issuing tools is separated spatially about the place, so is the first step is bashing loose, a big piece of rock and that's done here and then ten meters over there somebody's doing the initial chipping on it and ten meters over there somebody's sharpening up the final touches. Now, if you are making it by yourself. Why would you systematically walk around the side as you made it you almost assuredly wouldn't, but if you got division of labor he's a big strong guy. You do the first thing that you handed to me and I do the finer sharpening. It makes sense that it would be spatially distributed about the site. Some does that evidence for division of labor there's the evidence that they bring it down some pretty fast, just animals like horses and potentially even bringing down elephants which in those days are like twice the size of an elephant and then they using spears. At that point, I don't know because he didn't survive right. Any number and wood is still around. There's no sign of having anything surfer was spears would be in a wooden point, so I think what they could have to
meaning the end of it like a cut in half, so you get stuck on a spear tip into yeah, exactly and and exact strap tight on arms or of any of a variety of ways yeah, and so they there's no sign of that yet, but no reason why they couldn't have sharpens pure fact. We know that number there I mention chimps in Senegal that live on the savanna they're. The only chips on earth who do this dog bite the stick to sharpen it and poke them monkeys, when they're in the hall of a tree in stab. What did you see that recent discovery and I'm is really really recently? There was an article or two one or two days ago about orangutans when they gave them wire. They use the wire fashion into fish hooks now I didn't get really cool yeah. They figured out what, if how to make a fish hook, and it's amazing, to see them like Spearfish right, hang over. Troy knows that that's data that picture is actually been around a ten who's watched fish even he couldn't do it remember in entering tend to it, met you
literally put your arms off like that right, the date so enormous strength, but to get gearing for that strength. They got very poor motor control. Thank you and I can type they can't do that right and so that that it rang that that famous photo never could catch anything. Is it rated seen it done and it was trying to see if you could do it to Fahrenheit easy trying to use it right now, but you know: there's these corporate these frozen such Del fashion hooks to yeah. So there's there's a lot of amazing evidence for the sort of animal ingenuity and making tools. We've seen the studies with crows where they use of wants, to get a larger state to get a larger, still getting food amazing. The one thing is we, don't they can do that, and they feel some super simple tasks so yeah. It could be that their brains, tiny though they are dedicated to a particular way of solving a particular problem because they're, especially these ones that live in New Caledonia, do this in the wild and so the fashion amount of palm fronds they tear it off and they reshape it, and then they hook insects out of the bark of trees and stuff
So you could imagine that they've kind of learned a specific way of problem solving, but they can't do something that to you, because you would solve that using some pretty demand. General mechanisms to you looks the same, but to them is totally different. Did you find a thing with the ringtone? It's it's really crazy, it's just well, you know I'd read something here: we go rank ten spontaneously been straight wires and hooks to fish for food. Just is there a photo of a Jamie. If you scroll down a little bit there, what is that photo I'll just seem to stick yeah, that's really really cool. I had read something a few years back that said that they were agreeing that chimpanzees had officially moved into the stone age yeah, so chimpanzees were used. Stones's too, walls and so they'll crack nuts with them right, but they've never they've never been shown to modify stone brass. So, if you want
say the stone age, use and stones by all means, if you want to say it's modifying stones, the oldest evidence away of potentially modified is three point three million years ago these. MAC. We tools, but there's arguing about how legit those up right. This argument about a lot of those sites to where they believe that they find stone tools that are ancient 'cause. It could easily just been Shaylor things an overwatch, it's super complicated to know exactly when I got laid down, everyone will get lucky and and the layers are super orderly and then, when you get to that later, you know exactly what you got, but now it what's the chances of finding what you're, after that right, yeah when they say the stone age, that's what they mean. Just the idea of consciously using a rock to like smash open, a clam or something like that. Yeah I mean to me that does I I got I got. I mean I'm not quite sure technically with an anthropologist with me when they say stone age, but to what what we know is that James will.
Do that they'll use rocks to, though, even if it's the clever enough to have an anvil, basically like arm hammer ball based on peroxides smash yeah. What they're, not clever enough to do so chimps have partial theory of mind in theory. Mind is this idea that I know that the contents of your mind differ from the contents of mine and all humans get there when they're little around age for and so you can see the penny dropped because they just assume everybody knows the same things and everybody is the same preferences and That's when the really little their stories can be hard to follow because they assume, what's in your it is the same as theirs. They assume you like the same things, and actually it turns out that the once, you have siblings, learn it earlier because, like oh you like the red jelly beans, I like the green ones. Awesome this is a beneficial deal for both of US race right anyway, chips can get partial theory mind. So I could see what you could know what you could see at your angle of how much him- and I know that it might differ from what
I could see right, but they can't get to the point of knowing that you could represent. Believes that are true, that you can am to believe etcetera or that maybe I don't like banana, but he does like bananas and they don't get that now and so what the problem is without theory of mind. How do you teach somebody ' 'cause? If I just assume you know what I know that when you're doing a crappy breaking the not I'm like what's wrong with Joe here by and so will chip mothers take years to to teach their offspring to break these notes open ten years on average, because for so they don't get a chance to do it very often and that's got to be in reason. Second, why it's easy to break your fingers and that kind of slows you down, but third of all, they'll, occasionally make some very specific corrections when the when the offspring is doing it wrong, but they don't know what the problem is, because they don't know what the it doesn't know, and so when you don't know that you can't teach and that's why he, stunningly effective teachers. That's fascinating, so
Chimps, learn more just by observing yeah and what's amazing about the way chimps observe. Is that because we have theory mind we also do imitate differently. So this amazing experiment by Andy White Men's colleagues and what they did is they created this treasure box and so inside this treasure box, or something that a chip or a kid wants like a little p the food and one condition the box is totally opaque, so you can't see how it works and they'll poke at the top of it, and then the poke in the middle and it pops open, and then they give it to the chimp close it up. Chip does the exact same thing: poke, poke, poke, poke pops open, give the kid's exact same thing. Now they do that they do the replicate that same experiment, but instead of having the box be opaque. It's translucent and you see well and truly they poke in the top. Does nothing the latch actually right here and so that initial Polk was, most of your time, this
second one. Actually, the one that opened the box up when chimps watch that they skip the first one and they just open the box kids despite being smarter than a chimp poking at the top first, and then they put it in the bottom, and we call this over imitation. There imitate clearly irrelevant actions. Why would anybody imitate clearly irrelevant actions? What advantage would it give you? Well, if you've theory mind you say: well, that's Joe's bar! He knows something about it. There may be a. This is why I can't see, but there may be reason. Why is at the top first, and so I better do everything that he does have better have the highest fidelity copying that I possibly can 'cause. It may be valuable, you end up with. Is these systems around the world where people it is amazing foods that you think you know how on earth could have ever figured that out was probably developed step by step. And everybody's always got this super high fidelity imitation 'cause they're over imitating? So my favourites, close in new guinea date, the Sago Palm, not sure if you ever seen a sago,
but it does not look like an edible tree. It just looks like a freaking tree right and it turns out that if you chop the tree down take the bark off take like an ads or something similar grind up. The sawdust have all that's all so then wash it off in warm water 'cause course. All the water in new guinea would be nice and warm, and that causes it super high starch tree that causes this large molecules to separate from the sawdust 'cause at that point, it's inedible. So then they have these claws and the starch molecules pass through the cloth the sawdust want. Now they collect this cloudy water, put in these traditional canoes they let it sit overnight and all of start sinks to the bottom. Then they pour the water off the top, and now they've got this flower, but have to dry it out in the sun, really faster becomes toxic. So it's like this nine step process that one could ever come up with that right, but once it's in place, why this they slowly figured it out to make it work everybody just. Is it the same way because even though they don't know they may understand it, but they don't need to they just know. This is
right. Well, that's like that. What is that route that they eat? Cassava, yeah, that if you don't cook it correctly, it's literally cyanide and have water from it and they have to take that water and they have the buckets of these water in a water. For that they're using to cry, this stuff and they just leave it laying around and kids are playing, around, it pigs and animals around it and if they drank it, they'd be dead. I don't know, I don't know the detoxing of cassava, unfortunately not not familiar with it, but there's a lot of those examples and you're also right is kind of societies. There super relaxed about things that we strike this, I guess, is working to, kill you exactly, but that stuff it becomes cyanide right. You could be right. I don't know that put see if you could find this 'cause it's on an episode of that
same show. It's on the show's called mediator. It's my friend Steve right now who went and spent some time with them down the jungle, South America, it's really interesting stuff to see how these people who've function and- and they have this big vat and their cooking the stuff, and they were you know, he's explaining like right now. If you ate it, your dad. Do you wait a while and like how the did they figure this out researchers to get in the room, you're right off the Sinai. Cyanide do singing abilities, cassava the third most important food source in tropical countries, but is one major problem the roots and leaves a poorly process. Cassava plants contain a substance that, when eaten, can trigger the production of cyanide, yet chills shed idea see. But it's weird like that that thing is like a major staple in their diet. Well, this is a really good example of a the value of human learning and and this over imitation process right, because the first guy with Eagle CAM not gonna, do that right right and then this person they did, they did successful. Let's take a look at what they did yeah, so I
When I was a kid, I was trying to learn to play baseball and pitch the ball and person raises their knee almost up to their nipples and I'm like that's the most awkward pitch. Motion I've ever seen, but I didn't occur to me. I'm not going to do that right. It occurred to me. There must be a reason to do that. So I'm. What can I do to try to emulate that motion right hold this and then the whole nine yards there's a purpose for everyone of those pieces of those. As humans will say well. You're teaching me how you've got to have a reason for doing that, and that's the huge difference between us. Everybody else run. Nobody else can do that very my thing to make that assumption and that's why the chimps skip this step that they did. They know. At least you know in that particular term is really actually useless and kids don't so, your concept is that as these animals, that used to be monkeys start give all
being in and and trying out new things, one thing if they learn as they enter into this new climate as there's a massive benefit to cooperation? Yes, now I would say it's not monkeys, because eight, technically speaking, aren't all apes monkeys, but not all monkeys or apes, so monkeys and apes are different. They split off. But monkeys, not a real word. I mean it's not a word in terms of scientific designation right not only been a month or two different things right, but they there's over monkeys in new world monkeys, but all of them have that the genus and species you know as a matter of this the, but it's not a scientific name right. Only there's like he's not right now the primates are all price. I read that Bcv, Google, that cool There was a whole article. An anthropologist wrote that not all Apes are monkeys, but all monkeys, no not all month. These are apes, but all apes or monkeys because monkeys on a slang term 'cause this I think it's bullshit, but will find out what I would say is it all. Eight hundred and ten monkeys are primates
and they all started from monkey ancestry right right and so, but then a split off you got Arang intent. The great apes are rang, intends guerrillas send us, and then you got givens, which lesser apes, which split off quite awhile ago and they're very different, I have the brain power of the great apes. Do you find a like that? I read this a few years ago, skid confuse the shit out of me. Because I didn't know that monkey wasn't a scientific term. A scientist talk about over a monk is a new world all right, but it's almost a slang term Garant. There's only Well, whenever you're, if you're, if you're, proper biologist- and you have this before- I say that is alleged pansy is thing I found. Is it like a mantra source, but it pops up on? Google. Okay comes up, but it's a longer. It's there's more to it. A apes are monkeys in the same way that monkeys are primates. Humans are a, and I am a human. It's called the nested higher that's right. This is. It means that
apes or monkeys, but not all monkeys or apes. Just as all humans are apes, but not all apes are humans. Yeah sigh Goma, click on a link. It's I get someone's website at this yeah. This is what I read now. Is this bullshit article? I don't know sorry apes, he's deal with it. I don't know the term. I don't know the origin of the term. Mark Martin Robbins wrote a fun pieced the lay scientist, the other data incorrect term views monkeys, describes it triggered an article by Greg. Smith for the daily mail, in Martin's words a great crime against pit entry in isn't grass and it's time for I want to draw a line so as a pet on to how do you say that pendant today in tech yeah, but I never use it by today on yeah with the profession no interest in the issue, I'm taking my stand to help ensure that a miscarriage of pedantic justice doesn't occur. This guy likes that word, nested hierarchies apes are monkeys in the same way that monkeys are primates. Humans
herbs and I'm a human. It's called a nested hierarchy and he has a primate nested hierarchy. Setup could be right. I just don't know. I don't know the origin of the term. Nobody cares and he cares enough to put that up. Yeah, he fucked my head up dude you could be right? Ok! Well, I'm not right if anybody right, he's right or your right, uh, no, no knowledge, but all I mean is that so the ancestors who moved to the Savannah weren't monkeys, like boo, moon monkeys are there like some kind of Champ ancient Champ, and so once we get to Houma rectus their base. Klay like us, although there but our brains, they're, not around nine sixty were around thirteen. Fifty we literally have a chimp brain added on top of their right. So is a big difference in and You are absolutely right, it's accelerating like crazy, and I totally convinced. Well, I believe randoms right I mean we don't know for sure, of course, but I believe he's right that this fire that played a huge role in that, and so what you got is this process, where our evolution facilitates a further evolution right. So you get the cognitive capacities to control fire and now
that allows you to grow your brain even larger, because we can, we can store fat, we can get more nutrients from the food we eat. We can detoxify other things fires super valuable, even chimps will eat if they go through our area this is far is fire. You know speaking what's going on locally they'll eat like the roasted nuts first. They really like that, because I mean just you go in your kitchen, you smell a raw steak. It's like I'm palatable smell it. When is cooking, it's delicious yeah. That is interesting right, that's no salt or anything on it. It's our nose telling us that is a great source of food and nutrients. That's not so much. That is interesting. I've never thought about it. That way, but yeah there's a a tremendous difference in the way your body reacts to it and it's not just based on your experience, eating it. It's smells amazing is amazing and so random talks about. He argues that you can't live on a diet of raw food
food and less you're reading these like super fruits and stuff, like that that basically, we've quarter cultured into existence because raw food just doesn't give you enough calories? So the example that he uses, which is a great one, his chips literally spend something like six to eight hours a day chewing just to soften up the food enough, so that they can swallow and digest it. Brian. Will you know if it's sushi you're? Hardly you know some of the things we cooked and it's wrong in that case, but you know, cooked steak are really nice when you barely chew it at all right down the hatch ago. That's a great argument for guerrillas as well right because guerrillas are just seeing. Routes for can celery, and so literally they have a humongous got rice, constant chewing in order and they've got a huge, the sagittal crest right here with the bone so that the muscles attached to it. So they can chew hard enough to get through all that stuff and make it digestible and still there. God is enormous yeah. It is interesting that chimps have those enormous chewing muscles on their head. So we'll uh That's another example where somebody along the way LOS, I can't remember
That gene was where muscles weaken in our jaw and there would have been that would have been a death knell if your back before cooking post cooking, all that does is free up space for get rid of some unnecessary muscle, free up, Morse Cranial space for brains, the inside not the outside. So is it likely that There was a bunch of different factors that there was natural selection and play in that there was also the throwing arm and then also cooking and uh? Also this this cooperative effort that led to people being a little bit more ingenious a little bit. Smarter and how they hunted and how they tried to get food and then how they protected their fire, how they cultivated fire, all these things lead to more clever, behavior, which led to a natural selection of clever, more clever, champs with larger brains or apes, rather with larger brains. Absolutely and so anytime. You got some major happening, it probably doesn't have a single cause. It probably has lots and lots of causes.
So in this case all these kind of factors came together now, if you're standing at the outset and you're playing God and saying, let's see what happens when I dry out the rainforest, I think nine times out of ten, the chimps all end up dead right somehow we got really lucky and they went down this very particular road and once they got their social life together and they started cooperating. Chimps are never going to be very effective in groups because they can't get along. They can cooperate very well, but once these animals, probably at Australopithecus, but maybe not till later. Of course, we don't know. All we can look is what they were capable of, but it fits the story line that they would have been the ones who developed that once that happened, Social becomes everything. So we tend to think about what are the challenges of physical life. Like you know, that's coupon you move into that territory and you gotta freaking figure that out. It seems enormously complicated, which you have to remember that four modern travel was invented. Everybody walked everywhere, which meant you spent
entire life, basically in territory that you're familiar with or the kinds of animals that lived there, the kinds of problems that you face and so cognitively the terrain is not really a challenge for you and how to even making food in those really creative ways is not a challenge for you once you got theory of mind and you can learn how to do it, but it's a huge challenge, for you is a social interactions with each other 'cause, as my group get smarter, if I'm not smarter. For so, we talked about sexual selection, I'm not going to get picked I'll, get left behind. Second, well. We live in a world where there's no law enforcement and so the day that you decide the time more trouble than I'm worth. I go to sleep and never wake up again, and so I have to be able very complicated relationships. It's a little bit in my mind. It's every morning, when you wake up it's to an episode of the sopranos, how are you to find a way to get through your day without getting whacked right, and if you can't figure it out, that's the end of your line. Have you ever read any Terence Mckenna? I know you're familiar with something called the stoned ape theory. Now
Mckenna it was. He was an ethnobotanist. He was also a psychedelic adventurer and he had a theory, and the theory was that the what you're talking about this climate change that also coincided with the w in the human brain size. This theory was that one of the things that was in play was that these apes would experiment with different food sources as they moved into the grass, and there was a lot of undulates in these grasslands and that's little mushrooms, which we know existed back then, would grow in these grasslands and that the these monkeys, apes rather started consuming psilocybin mushrooms and it led them to be more creative and also led specific traits, like the development of language, that eating mushrooms in low doses, increases visual acuity, which would lead them to be better hunters more perceptive. It also
leads them to be hornier, which would most likely involve more breeding, more sexual, active and possibly select the the ones that chose the the mushrooms would maybe possibly breed more than the ones that didn't choose the mushrooms because they were more into it and we more social, more sexually active. He has a series of like his brother Dennis, is still alive, detailed it on a podcast. We did the very first podcast we did ins. His brother is an actual scientist and detailed it Inter terms of how Psilocybin affects the brain and what areas of the brain it it. What what? What actually takes place when you're under the influence of this, and that it could very potentially have led to the development of language and that this all these things in play, the throwing arm the
being these new social networks, where you you need to okay with each other, along with the harnessing of along with the consumption of today, mushrooms on a regular basis, because they were incredibly frequent and very edible. Hi best terms, never heard of that fact. It would be really like that's a really good example of some random thing if they really did play that role, how random that is that these freaking things happen to be growing there and if they have be attracted to eliminate them. We know that animals like to get high. This will lead these fruit that our view that, with the drunk in this case, it is now over ripe and and of become alcoholic. We know that animals will do that and you've seen jaguars. It consumed psychedelic plants and they rely on their back and stare at the sky and everything that now. Oh, it's amazing, you know what I want now- I is a it's a way, save that these people in the rainforest developed untold thousands.
Years ago of developing an orally active version of dimethyltryptamine? Do you know what they're methyltryptamine now I'm not okay, dimethyltryptamine is the most potent psychedelic known to man is incredibly potent That is just end intensely hallucinatory these insane visions, and it also is proof the here's, a Jaguar. It's really crazy. This is in the Amazon, these jaguars eat plants and these plan are they have the ingredients of Iowa and these cars are known to eat these things and then trip there, fucking balls off, they eat him and their pupils dilate and they roll over on their back and stare at the sky. I mean there are clearly high right, so this is something that yeah. This is what I must say. So this is what what I wanna skate is is dimethyl tryptamine like look it's kind of cool watching as Jack Wharf Trip balls. It is scary, they see shit, that's not there I mean or
it? Is there, maybe their other astral traveling, it's amazing, so what Pulaski is. Is there is diamond tryptamine, which is this incredibly potent psychedelic drugs produced in the human body is produced by the liver, is, by the lungs- and they also believe it's produced by the Pineal gland, which is littered your third eye hi Neil going and in certain reptiles actually is a reptile right now, in a lens I mean it's like an eyeball and they thing in the the Egyptians called it: the seat of the soul and the I think that this is one of the reasons why they have this obsession with this gland and in eastern mysticism, is somehow or another. They figured out that this is the gland that produces this incredibly potent psychedelic truck this psychedelic drug, and for tryptamine also exists in thousands of different plants. The problem is when you consume it orally Yorba,
body produces something in your gut called monoamine oxidase and monoamine oxidase breaks it down. So what these indigenous people figured out is how to combine one plant which contain this psychedelic compound with another plant which contains a natural MAO inhibitor called harming. So they brew all together. Much like they did the cassava, which we I wondered, no idea. They figure that out right, the Bruce stuff up together to create the psychedelic t called IRA Wasco, and I want to now they have all these trips. Where people go down to Peru and take this stuff and trip there fucking balls off, and this this could combination of these things is to this incredibly potent trance trance formative, experience which is impossible to describe and that this this psychedelic drug. Why did I bring that up? What were talking about? How maybe chimps in are these early ancestors did something similar which push them along this path that
right, but how do I get to the until? What would it would how to get our Alaska a couple of links in that changes because of animals and get high? That's that that's what it was. So this is what this that that's exactly. It was, it was just yeah. The Jaguar getting high on DMT that's what they think the jaguars doing the Jaguar consuming this stuff. It's making a trip on DMT and Emts. I mean it's fun, this is really exciting, and so so Robert Trivers is wonderful. Biologist who started a lot of the kinds of work that we're talking about going in the 70s calls these sorts of things of phenotypic indulgence right so pollution gave these pleasure centers in your brain, so that you do what's in your jeans, best interests and key the animal or get the girl or whatever, and that makes you feel good, and so we tend to like the things that are good for us and dislike the things that are bad for us. We don't want to eat feces. We do want to stick so. There's cases like this where it short circuits that it goes right to the pleasure center, even though what it's doing is kind of irrelevant. But this is a case where maybe it wasn't irrelevant, maybe
actually cause these animals to then change. The way that they behave to become more sociable right, it's very possible something that played a role along the way, which is why, if you replay the sequence of the finishing Rainforest ten times only one time? Does it maybe lead to anything good and the other nine times it leads to a bunch of dead, chimps yeah? Well, the process, is probably incredibly slow right over millions of years the climate did alter was right, there are millions of years for the rainforest to disappear. It's got these animals to slowly slowly, so I got no choice. Slowly figure it out, and then I think, for three and million years literally there's skulking around the edges and they figured nothing out, but there was a press, on them to walk upright, and nobody knows for sure what that pressure is one hypothesis that has some possible there's, probably a lot of reasons right anytime. Something big happens is probably a lot of causes, so some people who said that you can cover ground more efficiently when you walk upright with fewer, calories, and especially this idea of slowly running down animals, you may have heard about this. Notion's persistence hunting exactly we talked about that yet
so, and so the but another reason is so ass, yourself. So why would an animal? So if we back up a little bit remember I talked about how oldowan tools, which are made even later than when we first started walking up right, so they're, even at so that older one tools are never carried it any great distance from where their quarry then made, and so what you have is an animal just like today's chimps. They can't plan for tomorrow. So a chimp can plan for needs that it currently
else. It can say: oh, I want to go, get termites out of that mound, I'll break the stick off will strip the leaves and then I'll go over there and do that, but it can't plan for the fact that it might have that need again tomorrow if it doesn't feel the need it can plan for it, and humans can plan for unfelt needs and the best example of that is the notion of taking the tool with you that you've now used and saying. Well, I want to use it again tomorrow right, so, whichever also pithecus was the first one to start walking upright was almost assuredly incapable of planning for the future for unfelt needs, but it could plan for felt needs 'cause. It chimp can do that too, and if you think about how would you feel if you're about to Walker the open, Savanna and you're kind of small and leopards and lions are way faster than you. I think the primary thing could feel his fear, like oh shit, I'm attacked, and so I want something in my hands to help me defend myself, a spear, a club stick something and so what I suspect is a part of the process is my desire to hold something in my hand as I'm looking at
and I'm scared and a bunch of us are doing that, and so I suspect that that's what led played a role in leading to bipedalism. There would have been other factors at play like persistence, hunting and stuff, but I suspect that came later so whole actually holding a weapon might have led to the beginning of that interest. Just because you don't need to be a rocket scientist. You're scared. Now you want something to defend yourself. Do we have evidence of them? Sharpening sticks, remem so modern chimps who live on the savanna do sharpen sticks, modern, chimps yeah, but do we have ever of ancient man? We don't know everything. We don't even have sticks leftover practice when no, they must use in because our make some pretty complicated stones, and so surely they were sharpened sticks but all of its decayed. So what year did we? So we, we really don't know when they first started, attaching these stone tools to stick ex rel making axes spears, we know that that's happening very real,
only by homo sapiens? We don't know if it happened before that. If I had to guess, I would say that Houma Rectus did that if you look at the quality of other things, that they've done so, for example, there's this amazing site off the sea of Galilee about seven hundred thousand results remember human homo sapiens. Let's call it three hundred thousand years so now seven, a thousand or so years ago, and there's this elephant skull, that's been turned over so that they can get access price range. Yeah friend this you know, that's that things and we'll be it's heavy. As anything, you got to have people working to other to turn that thing over there's, even a log underneath that that might have been used as a lever to kind of help. Plop thing over, so what you got is people are quite capable of working together. They know what they're trying to achieve. They know how to access those things. I have. I suspect that they knew that they could sharpen a stick or maybe even have to put a stone to make it even better. It's just that we can find in the evidence, for that is not yet. He wasn't there. Some at there's certain really ancient evidence of cannibalism to because of the
scrape marks inside of skulls, and they think that they were scooping out brain matter. That's possible. I haven't seen those data, but absolutely you can see where they've used those tools on like the legs of animals, and things like that, so you would see it inside the skull as well a human skull that I'm sure, you're aware of that little person that was discovered just a few years ago. I think it was like a decade so go that on in denial on the floor is yeah yeah. They think that little person type thing used to stone tools right, yes, those guys so so member there. So what happened about I'm the one point x million years ago? A call at one point: seven, I don't member exactly home rectus leaves after but they also stay to get home. Erectus basically colonizing all of Africa and got home home erectus colonizing almost all of Europe all of Southern Asia, and so they don't they don't go beyond at least not to our knowledge. Maybe they did but certainly covered all background and an outside of so now you can homo Erectus
at home or it is outside of Africa and of course, then, over time, both of them are going to evolve and change the ones out out of Africa. End up is neanderthals those the most recent recent instantiation of them, the ones inside of Africa and up as us, and so when we leave Africa. The first thing we encounter is neanderthals in Arabia: 'cause, that's the first point of entry out of Africa, and so we probably star copulating with them. Then we know we started cooperating with him soon, afterward so as we left they added, of somewhere else involved in Europe and Asia yeah, and so they involved from some other type. Well, the same ancestors so are: okay, are great uncle left and are great Grandpa state right and so the ones who left some of them evolved into those people on the into those tiny little people some of them. We know this Dennis over in from a bone. You know on the right inside Russia, yeah and, and we have got- we know that we interbred with neanderthals and that that's where a lot of our genes that we currently have for light skin and blue eyes and things like that come from and they think we
we in a bread with the Dennis, opens as well right. Well, not all of it. So there's some there's evidence for melanesians. If I remember I having Dennis Open blood or dna, I don't I don't know about s. It may turn out that we did. I don't think so, though, but there's no evidence that humans interbred with the folks from Flores that I know of a never seen. A tiny, they're really either very smaller, like kind of like now, that doesn't mean that, if, if, if, when the we well, no, we it's possible that we could have a Somebody would do it so like we we we had Australia by sixty five thousand years ago, and I don't remember when the floors we hit Australia. Sixty five thousand years ago- and that was through some sort of boat traveling, remember so six five thousand years ago would have still been ice age, and so we would have had a lot less water right. So if you, if you look at the top a graphical maps, then when you look at what the Pacific Avenue just as tough, it's these balls esl. But it's a little less ball z. When you can keep seeing the next piece of land not now
as far away compared to now, where the c is much higher and you can see the land okay. So when the Pacific Islanders, like travel to Hawaii, do you think they could see things that they could see a lot better. Now, the most recent the very last place, the Pacific Islanders settle, is New Zealand, that's only seven hundred years ago, so that's the same as today right, but but a lot of that discovery was done at a time where the sea was a lot lower and so to be a lot more island sticking up that we don't currently have so seven hundred years ago. They had much more sophisticated boats, yeah they those awesome, yeah records and all that right. It is crazy. You think about like we're like little rats with the way we scattered across this globe. Yeah and- and if you, if you think about it, it's it seems like it's all balls exploration, but I actually suspect a bigger part of it is right. Run away from the guy behind. You is causing problems, and so my favorite example, that is, if you look at the cliff dwellings like in the American SW and you go there any thinking who that would live like this, I mean you know when Junior walks out
But if the people down the valley are scarier than the risk of falling outside, you came you're going to live up in a cave dwelling right where they, climb up to get yeah and that's the of the member, we talked about sexual selection as a source of people, don't like unfairness people, also don't like unfairness between groups, because if you want to make a deal- and you know I'm from Ohio you're from california- the Californians benefit more than the Ohioans. Even though my benefit you benefit more now, I'm at risk, because maybe your group, you know ancestral, is going to cause my group problems, interesting, so and you're studying all this stuff. How does that make you feel as a person? Do you mean? Do you do you ever internalize all this stuff when you're thinking about like all the weird ape, like creatures that turned into people and all the thous? ins in thousands of years of evolution and how it could have gone left and it did go right and this,
another, freaking out when you really get deep into the study of all this stuff it first of all. I do this all the time right, so it does freak me out, but it's what I like and it also we can talk about all the ways that you can pick things about. Our modern cells based on knowing these things in the past right, but Secondarily, what freaks me out the most probably is the enormous role of random chance in all this right, and so, if you think about the I mean just think about our own back, the random chance that are mom and dad got amorous the night that they did. They made you and me if they did a different position. Maybe your brother is talking to my brother right yeah, so it's really which sperm wins. That race is so unlikely to be us, and so every roll of the dice has to go way right and so the the role, the chance and all this kind of freaks you out, if you think about that yeah, but at the same time your brother's, probably a lot like you, my brother's per play a lot like me or my sister whatever, and so you have one now they have more. I've got a boy and a girl, okay,
you will you know, then, that they're so different right out of the box yeah they are, which is really weird. It is weird. So I don't know if you saw this book, the plumbing just wrote call blueprint rob for plumbing is a behavioral geneticists. I haven't seen Now, it's a lovely book just came out and just out like really recently like a month or two at the most. How do you say his name Plomin Robert Plomin, and he's a behavioral geneticist over in the UK, and this book blueprint talks about role of jeans and all this, and he basically is one of these people have been in the field almost since it got started and what they kept thinking is that the environment was going to play a huge role that parents were going to play a huge
roll but of course, but they keep finding over and over again, there realize how DNA makes us who we are and and what they find over and over again this this so does disconcerting is first of all on average. Most things are about fifty percent genetic, but the bummer is that the other half isn't isn't what happened in your house and the way you're brought up by your folks. It's the random the stuff like the first. We don't even know what it is. Just it's what we call unshared environment, maybe that first girlfriend had maybe you biked into a tree, and you want improved your face. You know a million things that specifically happened to you. That didn't happen to everybody else in your family right and also the way you address those things that happened and that could have a fact. It could be a factor in how you were raised and how you were taught to deal with stress how you were,
to deal with situations and the character, development and put all the data suggest not to suggest parents just don't matter how you were taught doesn't seem to play a role, because when we parse up all the different traits about you, there's a few that your parents actually have a big influence on what religion you're in, for example, but not how religious you are. So this role that you entrance play seems to be when spermatic it's a friend of mine, the analogy they made when when I, when I had my first kid is, he says: here's what you're going to find out that your hand but when the babies born you're handed a negative, it's the pictures aren't even taken. You can screw it up by being in the dark room a little bit longer. You can help it a little bit by being in a dark room, a little bit right, but the photograph is already there. My son and my daughter a wildly different and some race in some ways are quite similar, but I feel like I'm along for the ride more than I feel like I'm shaping them to make them who they are? But don't you think shaping him, someone and try and look That's what we do right, but the data say no well, but how would the day
You know I mean. How would you so here is that we would have to study so many different Hume and being so. You have to take into account all the variables that took place during all the day. Rental periods of their life. Well to do it right. You need to do all that, and we can't do yeah and to do it right right, one is actually to have the actual genetic markers, not to know, know genes. Are there there and that's all starting now, but but we don't know yet what they do do is they'll say well, we got a bunch with two ways to go: buy this employment was at the front of both am one you look at adoptive Studies versus kids were adopted into a family versus biological and you can compare the parents of the adopted kids biological parents versus the home parents and it turns out that the biological parents predict a whole lot more about the adopted child and the parents who raised them. The parents raised in predict. Almost nothing. Whoa, I know and then the second thing you can do is you can look at fraternal versus monozygotic, identical twins, and you find that
when you, then they all share the same environment. They're all set up by you and me right where the parents of these kids but the also there's a lot of unshared environment and that's when they differ. It's not because you and me. We can't find any evidence that you and me that you and I made any difference. All we can find is evidence that other things in their life made a difference not to say and that means what we really don't know is well. What is that unshared environment? All we know is it's not something about your household 'cause that would cause fraternal and identical twins taboo. Be more similar to each other and it doesn't well obviously a lot there's. Not a lot of data in terms of you're measuring someone's entire life from birth to death. But there's enough that people are starting to draw conclusions, one of the more interesting ones is when you see identity twins that were raised in different households without any knowledge of each yeah, and then they run into each other thirty years later and they find out they have disturb.
The similarities is that's exactly another example, and what's also interesting about it, which plumbing talks about in blueprint is that your jeans become more powerful as you age, so the heritability of things like I q, goes up as you get older And so the argument is that your genes seem to be causing you to select out environments, so you gave the example well maybe the way that you discipline them or tell them to be resilient or whatever you do as a parent causes them to shape their environment doesn't seem to be the case, but it does seem to be the case that the genes that you give them cause them to select their environments in certain ways, because member kids choose their friends, right. You want them to play with Timmy, but they want to play with Johnny right. That's that's the unshared. In they're making those choices every day. It's also the case that their peers matter a whole lot more than their parents. Do they get to a certain age? You know I'm chopped liver as soon as my kids are a bit older, but when I'm young I'm their hero right right over there, you were they on gas. Now, when you, when you say
that your jeans become more powerful as you get older, what do you mean by that? Well, they they're more predictive of the outcome, and so, if you look at heritability of iq when you're a kid it's lower than when you're an adult and slower still there when you're an older adult, and so what seems to happening to a lot of our traits, probably homes, are you saying that like if you have children as an old, the person is more notable. Let the kids get older, sorry, okay, so is it? So if you look at the heritability of I q, when kids are too for eight ten, twenty sixty you find that identical twins come or more together as they age, whether the raging in the same household or not, and so there's it's something about selecting your firm. So like here's, one kid who loves to think and do puzzles and his identical twin loves to do the same and it kind get smarter whole lives. Here's another kid is not interested in that they have other interest in they when a different direction, but when you're, when you're the parent, you can be busily pushing, do the things you want them to do right and so they're heritability is less strong and is there's lots of cool exam.
It's like when to mens are limited in the school system, becomes more fair. Heritability of intelligence goes up in those societies, because, they're, now more capable of selecting the schools. They want to go to the environments that they want to be part of wow. What we were so flexible so weird when you think but all the various styles of civilization in the human beings exist and thrive in right and and for me, that's the key. So all when a lot of people here about this, they sort it sounds like genetic determinism. The engines are forcing you to be a certain way, but for me it's theirs is not genetic determinism you can think about is a genetic match party. Your knowledge is going to come from the dna. Your inherited the part of it's going to come from the I'm in a person's going to come from your own personal decisions. Yes, so in my mind we talk about in terms your mind, because that's what set in a psychology but in any easier examples your muscles, you know some people inherit genes that if they live one way once they're, not the buff, other people's genes, they have to work out a lot if they want to gain anything. But you can
still the I'm going to work out a lot or I'm not I'm going to eat these nutrients and a lot of protein or not. You can choose a lifestyle that leads you to be more muscular less. So it's partially choice. It's pie, the environment is person that interaction between your genes and environment, which would make sense if you think how flexible that we are absolutely in house to active that we are, it has to be because human beings have to learn how to survive in every environment on this planet. If we were, your cats or something what we got a certain way of doing things and your jeans can base we tell you what to do and with meerkats there's really interesting experiments for you can show. Your jeans cause you to listen to one signal and just follow that, but as human beings jeans have no choice but to give up control. Once we went down this cognitive pathway, it emphasizes learning over inborn instincts, you've had a little ones. You know their worthless when their babies right baby, Wildebeest gets up and off it can go. It run away from a lion. Now, it's just so fantastically complicated the developmental process from birth to adulthood,
and that this is taking place simultaneously among hundreds and use of millions of people and with, varying results and all sorts of different levels of create activity and ingenuity and mathematical prowess in literature. And it's all these different things that are being created by all these different weird little ape creatures everywhere and there's so many different factors that determine what this ape creature becomes. Right and that's one of the best things in my mind, about being a person. So if like if you're dung beetle, you got one job in push the ball up. Who can push a ball to the right hand? Your body? Well, that's The line for you right, but if you're human, maybe you're big and strong, maybe you're not maybe you're, really smart, maybe you're, not maybe really creative. You know there's a million ways to skin that cat and the great thing about being in the human is that any good at any of those things. There is an issue for you. You will be beneficial because we evolved to all worked again.
There will be value in you you're my favorite birthday, your whatever, whatever you're good at and everybody is good at something. And so the thing is that people worry about this sort of upcoming genetic revolution that it's going to be weather is going to be the good and everybody else, and that's just not going to happen because one of the things that we know and you'll see this. If you look at blueprint is that you have, I think, a zillion jeans on July every trick current five smart jeans, there's like a thousand of them and further more each one of them only accounts for a tiny, tiny bit, and they do lots of other things too. So you can't like you, can't make a designer baby that has all these qualities 'cause. All you do is noodle around with five or six jeans. There's a couple of disorders that work that way, but uh, Personalities are abilities, are proclivities, are all heavily Detur and by large numbers of jeans that do lots and lots of different things, but we're talking about our understanding of genetics currently and when you talk about things like Nick Manipulation or the use of Chris for any of these may be new tools and a third working on right now, they've already updated Chris, for they were Chris for point to right. Now
when when this continues to evolve and more and more innovation takes place in that world, don't you think they're going to get to it right where they're going to understand all the various factors in genetics and they're, going to be able to create a person who like Thor yes and no so in principle. Yes, so you've got like. I don't know three billion base pairs in your dna and most of those we all share all the same wants so much to the ones that are sure we don't care about those okay. All we can do is new around with the ones that aren't now. What makes it complicated is that most of the ones that differ, but queen people are actually non there and what we now call but regulatory region. We used to think of his junk dna, but now we know will think about a company, a company that makes widgets doesn't make widgets has to have sales of Esther marketing as to management,
now we know was sure enough. A lot of the dna, that's not coding for proteins, is working with the other dna to turn things on and turn things off and there's three billion base pairs of their their level of complexity. There's outrageous right so, but, let's still but someday we'll get it right. Okay, not you and I want to and and what we now know from the studies he was studies Genome wide Association studies is that you can look at all the variables base pairs. It very- and you can say all right which one of these things are correlated with my outcome of interest, and so you say, oh education and they create what's called a polygenic score, and you say, let's predict how many years of education you're going to get and sure enough the richer. You are, on average, the higher polygenic score. Is it you're born into a rich family? You probably have higher polygenic score, but if you're polygenic score for education is lower than the average. For your thing, you probably get poor across your life. If it's higher, you probably get richer. The gene for being smart for sitting there and doing what you're told for self control like it could be?
is one thousand things in there and each one of them accounts for 110Th of one percent of the variance. But what may the complicated is that whole set of jeans also predicts how artistic you are, but in a different combination, and it predicts how friendly are in a different combination- and so the jeans that do one set of things almost always do lots of things, and we have very few traits that don't that they don't have lots and lots of each play each play tiny roll underneath them. The example plumbing is in his book, which I think is great. He says we started out looking for gold nuggets and we now realize we're looking for Gold dust is lots of tiny stuff out there, so in in many ways when you're. Looking at a point, when you know you talk about the the human genome and our genetic code we're really similar to computer programs and the there's millions of millions of lines of code in computer programs, but we know how to make computer program.
So we know like what these will. We don't. I know right, I don't either numbers aren't put somebody smarter than both of us knows how to make these credibility because it lead operating systems and now we're reading, because we don't understand. So, if you look in neural networks, the b input levels in the output levels in the Freaking computer decides how to mix those things together and we don't even know what that's done and so that learning the same thing might get there via different mechanisms. So by that idea, or with it through that idea, wouldn't you think that artificial intelligence, could lead to the mapping of the human genome, or rather the altering of the human genome and mapping out a different type of human. Looking principle it could and an it may When all I would say is that what we thought, though, is that there be five smart jeans that really matter in the rest of trivial and so turn on those five smart, once everybody's going to want that and they'll be five funny jeans will turn those on you know, etc, but there's not, and so what that means decide
future world where I'm about to have a baby, and I can crisper the whole thing and I have to decide what jeans I'll say. Well, I can make an sma, but it is not going to be very friendly. You know right whatever right the old trade off against each other. You could get the big Dick gene, but it doesn't see, is good, exactly give him glasses exactly and so things that it makes it so yeah. We will get rid of being the single gene disorders that are awful right right right, but we're not going to. I suspect we're not going to noodle around with our smarts in our personality. Because every single change we make is going to have a commensurate change somewhere else. Well, I can make a smarter, but then, going to be depressed and like that yeah, that that is a boy. The idea of playing God like that That's that's really me. We, we are playing creator. You know, I'm not even necessarily think we should use the word God in that respect, because it's something that's already been created, but we're taking this light, form and radically altering it, and you can already do
that, and people will start doing it soon and we like, when I was a kid when we were kids IVF, is playing God right yeah. That is crazy. What do you don't think This is going to take place in our lifetime. The movie, Russia and China is going to make some super person, not there's too many jeans that play too small of a role, and so the thing is that the it it's too hard to mess around with it's too hard to make to create these things. There's no reason you'd be a lot better off. If you just did select breeding and the reality. Is you don't even need to people already assertively mate? They are very choose partners who are similar to themselves if they value education. The other person does two. If they value athletics, the other person does two that works so much better than anything that we're capable of and right now and when you do these g was studies with these polygenic scores, and you say: oh look. You're born in do a social class and suggested it would probably behind there's kind of low and sure enough. You get poor across your life. Your little
play, accounting for three percent of the variance you're, barely explaining anything, because, even though, when we look at the bay, your genetic studies, we can say well, intelligence is fifty percent genetic. We can't come close to finding the genes that actually do that, right and and part of the reason we don't know, but part of the reason may be. That first, of course, is fifty percent environmental and what those random things are. We don't know and second think about how you, with three billion base pairs, how many things, maybe when those two are in place and that one is in in the third, what you know, yeah the interactions that really really complicated levels where you're almost at infinite right, and so that's why I think it happens. When you and I to see to see it, I think you're, probably right, but then I just realized that things like crisper which were invented by accident- came out of no, where less than a decade ago, I believe it was less than a decade ago. Right. It's super reason: it's outside yeah
and then, if you really stop and think about even the mapping of the human genome, he used to be an unbelievably difficult thing. Yeah and then you know checking your genetics was preposterously expo. Now you just spit into spit into little to send twenty three in me, and they tell you hey, Well, you know, someone in your family is from Europe and this guys from Asia, and so I could easily be wrong that you and I will see it and it's only ten years away, yeah, because computationally seem so hard right now, but things are competition impossible and I was in grad school. You know that the simple analyses with our data in grad school, it's just like a phone, do that so easily by workers, while talks about that that we really don't see things in terms of the exponential increase in technology You know, while believes all this is going to happen plus more. He thinks you're going to be able to download your brain into a computer, and you know
and he signed order smarter than me. I don't know if it's more than you he's devilish more than me. His idea is researchers. Turned on the world's most powerful supercomputer, designed to mimic a human brain whoa who's in the US only about a week last week, sounds pretty zero more computer neural, more fit computer just got a big boost with a million core super computer. It took over a decade to build mother and this is the beginning of a movie right right- doesn't go well. Here's the thing right, this movie in this movie. This is a whole room, full of computers, just like the APOLLO permissions used a roomful computer set that can't fuck with your phone now. This is really crazy, like that's one thousand nine hundred and sixty five six thousand six hundred and sixty seven right, they had a room. This Iphone Beriz that room full of fucking shitty ass computers, plus it takes
issues, do you? Member have kids and everybody said everyone have their own phone right, never thinking who the hell wants a phone like my mom will just reach me wherever I go didn't know what a phone could do in those I used to have a bit and this only from two thousand and five from a Netflix special in two thousand and five, which you know thirteen years ago, but doesn't seem. That long ago, but I was making fun of people texting, because I was like hey bro. Why you making me read, call me I go you're sending the text from a phone. A call me thank you for presses to get an s now, and that was back when you had yeah and that that does a number yeah yeah, and then there was also back when people thought it was cool to have those walkie talkies. Those Nextel phones remember that that was like a big deal, have a walkie talkie and a phone that died out. Thankfully, but this this whole the chain. Change in the way we view technology from two thousand and five to
two thousand and eighteen. The world is a radically different place, and the funny thing is that you and I both make a live. By observing the human condition right our job, and we both get it wrong constantly right, So you got that right. The texting! What the hell is that I remember my sister ship me Facebook's use in an NGO and they're, using it to keep track of each others like that. People don't want to do that says every time every single time. I follow quite a few people on Facebook that are nuts and I go to their pages just to see what kind of arguments are getting into like as a sociological experiment, and there are people that are on Facebook, arguing about Trump or abortion or Islam or fill in the blank environmental concerns fracking, and they just fucking argue- all day long. It's last name, you look at their timeline. You look at the entries and you're like. Oh, my god, this is like. Ten hours of this shit in a day, and they just do it
all day long and you just picture this swear the person sitting in front of a computer arguing with the world. I know never would have thought that there they're be people sitting in front of their desk, arguing with people that they can't see all throughout the world who thought that right who thought that would be fun I think it is funny. I think it's an impulsive, obsessive thing that people get sucked into a knife they're, vastly healthier and happier when they're not engaged in it yeah. Well, I mean the truth of the matter is in this comes back to the past again, so we talked about all these differences, so one of the really lovely things that you can do is look for the past and then say: well, how does it manifest itself today and one of my give examples? Is the whites to your eyes so chimpanzee Is there brown eyes the sclera around the cornea in ours are white? Why would you do that? Well, that advertises the direction of your gay Why would you advertise the direction of your case, because what that says is it on average, as a human, when I look over there and see something? I want you to know that I saw it you and I are probably going to cooperate to help us achieve.
Whatever the goal is that I just encountered a chimp wants to hide it from its fellow chips because of its competitive right, on average, whatever the hell's over there you're not going to help me, get it right, yeah, exactly you're, going to make it harder for me to get the chips ever. Do, though, amazing Corrige, Mingo, amazingly groupers and octopi hunt together they do that wo groupers an octa paid work together. That said, the grouper will be over the great barrier reef and the fish is gone in and he goes to the octopus and he goes awry there. No, where reason he doesn't give a shit about the octopus, of course, but if the octopus goes to get it and doesn't get it it's going to come out in the group's got it. Cooperation always works better than working on your own right, wow. So is there. Real evidence that shows that the whites of our eyes developed in order to indicate which way we're looking well and all these This is all we can to say: let's do a little phylogenetic analysis, who's got it and who doesn't we're the only great ape with whites to there. I said ninety, how do I go
we're going to look at this? Here's a here's, an octopus, that's chill and is that a group are so weird looking through, provided, I guess beautiful look up really pretty looks like a coral trout to me, oh man, it. So what do I know? Look out pretty that octopuses too yeah there. Really. I fucking love Arctic and they can change colors, like that. I know: yeah we've gone down massive rabbit holes with these things, for is a time limit is changing right now as we're watching him. So he's he's sitting there waiting and the fish tries to get out and are there in the desert a scratch got shoes yeah, that's fine, and so it's really cool the way they have the good sense to work together. Look at the octopuses Matt is getting dark. Crappy or how cool his skin is, how it just changes and morphs as you're looking at it. That is so bizarre what create. I you know, I didn't know that they could do this and different Remi Warren came on the podcast and he had a television show called apex predator in on the show they would study all the
there's ways these animals would hunt and the way they would. You know all their their different adaptation to their environment. All the different way is that they would use the environment and he would try to mimic those different ways and one of the things that they studied was octopus, and, what's that other fish, that's like it, the cuttlefish, which is also what is octopuses octopuses, finish clamshell. What is he doing he's. Lounging picked it up. Oh my god, there's a BBC! This is crazy. Oh my. The octopus is climbing inside a clam shell, and then he closes it that is bananas. There's a BBC Blue Planet where it shows the octopus picking up all that random shrapnel, when there's a shortcoming after and it covers itself like a big ball in the shark- keeps going wow there super smart, octopi. Well, they eat sharks. You ever see that one. There is a video where they found this aquarium.
I was having an issue with sharks were disappearing. They couldn't figure out what was going on and they put a camera inside the aquarium and it turned out that the octopus was waiting to chilling on the rock still the sharks came by and they would snatch him and eat him. Watch this. It's really cool to watch these! I do to do to whom it don't bother with me. I'm just a piece of coral just hanging out here. Being coral bitch. I got you and 'cause. He look ex, exactly even in texture like to coral, which is so fascinating, but when they found this they were stunned. They had no idea that Octopus could do that, could not only that they could do that, but that they would eat a shark and it's a big fight, fuck man, it's not! so you want to squeeze the things mouth shut first, but it's an easy fight. It looks like he's the thing about ox First though too they could sacrifice a tentacle and it just grows back. So it's really no big deal it's annoying, but yeah. I don't know it's annoying mean we're just guessing right. So just
fascinating animal there. A rich twisted, a mop is an amazing case in Australia, where cooling brown as a biologist had cuttlefish in his tank. They can signal big. Like cannot yeah, I talked with a can do whatever color and in this tank it's got a bunch of emails. I once had a bunch of males in the other. So, mail goes in between them. Any signals that two different sides, his body. He shows the females he's mail, but he shows the mails that his female, so they won't attack him for a silent up to the female yeah. But how smart is that it's weird, it's weird that they split off from us. Huh Hundreds millions of years ago, right like is closely related in celery base yeah, but there's so smart and their eyes are similar to ours and like in the development. It's the opposite. So there are eyes, are poorly designed. There's a very well designed to our eyes. Have all the detecting stuff is in its own way it's backwards, and so the light comes in and has to pass all the cellular bodies before I can get picked up by the detectors. There's a a in
proper directions with the is in in the way, and we have the blind spot because the big thing, the nerve connection, they don't This comes in from the back where it belongs, that tells you is that yeah we both started out with some kind of random slight sensitive spot. There's happened to work much better, You want to turn it into an eyeball, then arced it because it you can always. It only can start with what you got but deserves work better because they could see the water I mean. Is I don't know I mean because there I think it's purely random, that they don't have. We do a great job of getting me the secular bodies that are on our way. So what you're? I does it we, because all the time, and so if anything's read stationary, it's wiggling a collie with your eyeball, you ignore it, and so you don't even know you have your own blind spot. You fill it in your brain. Does amazing things to fix the problem. If you have a piece of lint on your I or something like that, they were literally attached of and she would disappear and because your rates up that's a relevant, and so you can't see your own blind spot unless you close one eye and then you sit within not neutral back on, you move your thumb.
Cross. In literally, your thumbnail disappears because that spot is just being filled in by whatever the background. In what happens with the octopus, it doesn't the problem, because our nerve ending creates a blind spot by being on the wrong side. There's comes in from. Back, and so the whole thing works beautifully. They don't have to deal with the blind spot. Would that be as effective, though, in the world that we live in, it's a water air irrelevant it's purely a open stance that, with the light sensitive pit that they had started to get innervated properly from the back in ours didn't and then Azar's evolved into, and I I mean, of course we don't know. This is just bizarre involved too, and I we just had to find ways around the problem that all the fancy structures that we now need in front of it or in the way does anything. I have an. I like, an octopus that lives on land. Great question. I don't know I see. I read something about eyes that they think that that's a information Brad memory,
They have an amazing memory. They all these shows he still sore away. That has too many shows man. I don't have any memory anymore, so it's like full yeah. I've, like I'm, a hoarder like my house, is filled with Bach. This is a shit that I don't need. That's how brains work, my brain. It is how brains work right. I mean it must, because I know there's a lot of stuff in there that didn't used to be in there before, but I also know like it's like random people that I should bring my for that. I don't remember, he will do the funny thing about brains as we may never forget anything, but we just lose our capacity to access it What's the data of it may still guide our behavior and so every single experience you ever had may still be in there and a guide, your behavior, but it? It's annoying feeder recall it because he gets in the way of what you want, and so, when we talk about forgetting what Actually talking about is being able to actually retrieve it and tell me about it not to have a guide. What are action? Well also, I can. I can retrieve things far better. If I get access to the file-
by someone else. Is memory so like if you and I had an experience like ten years ago, we went on a camping trip or something like that, and I forgot something that happened. And you said, do you remember what happened by the creek when my hurt is flooded, Oh yes, exactly! Oh my god. I forgot about that and then next thing you know you have this memory What we've done is you've broken access in yeah, and so, but if you, you could be a little defined, the sneakers Rangel Holy Crap right right brands, you know, and so that's how our brain is designed it. It's it's annoying to retrieve when you're looking for one thing to retrieve everything, yeah right you if it's important happened recently, it probably should be retreat, differ yeah, let let it sit away and it'll still got your You won't put your foot in that same hole when you and might go on the camping trip the next time, but you want to Why, right in and likely significant lessons are important because they are seared in your memory of this is this is a significant point where you figured something out they didn't know before and it change the way you look at the world,
this is seared in your memory, yeah, and so when emotions get involved, you tend to have it's much more yeah. We retrieval out on because your mom, your brain sing, yeah, that's a r evolution or whatever you wanna call. It is telling you that's important that should be retrievable right and and what your yesterday for lunch. I can never right. Yeah, that's one of the reasons why epidemiology studies on diet or so difficult, because people don't really know, remember what the fuck they must eat the same thing, everyday yeah, it's the human mind is so fascinating and it varies so much and there's so many different factors involved in whatever it becomes cultural factors and environmental factor is dietary factors, and that's all that flexibility that we evolved to put us in that special place that we are, and so we made a deal right. So we said all right: we're going to start going down this cognitive pathway, but that means that there's very little in more knowledge, and that means that we're going to have to learn from people older than us and people with experience there, and that means, and the best way to learn from them is high fidelity copying, and so, if you happen to go off,
in the direction where they use chopsticks. Well, that's how you eat you happen to go in a fork directions tell me there's a million ways to do things, and so we stop with this sort of argument about. Well, it wasn't me not right and the right. Arguing that by and large was monogamy because you've got these systems in place. That are testicles, aren't big enough. We've got cryptic ovulation which means that we can tell when she's fertile, which means that we have to be available section interested in available all the time. So we can make sure where the father, and so that allows huh The pair bond with us and there's some evidence that orgasm is a pair bond, experience, certainly for females, probably for males it works in lots of animals via oxytocin some basic press and all that kind of stuff right, so all that suggests that probably on average that we evolved to do it this way, but we're so super. Super flexible. That went another society says we'll have these works for us off, we go and we find a way to make that work.
Studies that compare testicle size of different civilizations in different cultures. So there's a lot of argument about this and the problem is that the princess races, two. Eighty three is right: that's what underlies a lot of it, but we get scared. So the thing is that that that the the the genet fix. It explain why one animal or one species would have large testicles. Another would have small testicles are not the genetics. That would explain My two different individuals of the same species would be that way, because the only way to make that ladder one work is you have to inherit a constellation of traits so if I'm going to her the jeans for big balls and for impulsiveness and for having lots of kids, not caring much about him and all the things that are supposedly go with that that do when you look between species, there's no way for that, the constellation of traits to be inherited together, 'cause remember- I was talking about how polygenic everything is, and so they'd all literally need to sit next to each other on the chromosome. If they've got any chance of being passed on as a package and they don't
and you also get all the shifting around or in my says of I can remember the term for off the top of my head, but where there is a genetic mature move around and that virtually guarantees that you're not going to inherit this huge constellation traits within a species between species is dead, easy. You know your species and arts big inherits impulse Is it inherits? You know whatever in our strategy, just reproduce a town in the norm? You know all that kind of stuff did easy, and so Jim fathers don't pay any attention to TIM babies to speak of because well, that's their mating system right where, as some you've got pair bonded, givens and things, and now parents start play, a much bigger, even male parents, start to play a bigger role, but there's no studies that show that human beings with larger testicles, tend to ignore their children. Well. So this is just that people have tried to show that. But here's probably tried to show that in studies. So lots of people make that argument and it's called life history strategies where you say well, you're going to develop one life history
lg in these circumstances in another. In these other circumstances, the problem is that you end up with ethnic differences in testicle size which we know exist, and you also have ethnic differences and where, in in the kind of life that people currently lead, the difficult thing is it super easy to look at the world? We are in right now, and this is what tripped me up earlier as well. You look at the world that we right now and assume. Well, that's the way things have always been and they haven't, and so right now you know the mathematics, but for a while there are the best math in the world, was taking place in the arabic world. Now it's not anymore, and so, if you, if you don't know I passed you would say: well look people in arabic world aren't with mathematics and they have these qualities and that you make an inference right now. The ethnic differences in testicles, I believe, but I can promise you that it's some different w african groups happen to have the largest testicle size on average. Those w african groups tend to be poorer right now. There's lots of things about life that go with being poor, that look like, and our strategy having lots
kids and paying less attention to them. But what you're probably looking at is a coincidental association between some biology. In some part, some way that your your people happen to live. They didn't just a while ago in that won't exist awhile from now until it's really easy to try to use this research which people have to say well. You've got some primitive people. Will have big testicles in low parental effort and you've got some more sophisticated people with smaller testicles in the high parental effort. But that's genetically super nice One of the things that I learned when I was in Rome. We took a tour of the Vatican by this guy who a professor is really interesting. It was cool because we, to have a really enthusiastic guide and who, who could explain a things to you and he was really excited. That you know me and my family very curious about these things too, but one of the things that he said it was really interesting. I said: ok, I go. Why did all the dudes have little dicks like? What's going on with that, and he said that the table
believed that if you had a large penis that large, where are a symbol of barbaric behavior and that these were cruder people and that you need to be to be, you know, thought to be a sophisticated person. You want smaller, so they actually accentuated small. Penises in their gods and smaller penises their statute, and that's funny I mean you can see these kinds of things all the time so early, pre, western contact. If you look at japanese women they're their pain with their eyes is narrow. The slate is possible post western contact. Now the women want more almond shaped eyes, and so they start painting than with the beautiful woman. Bigger eyes, these things can change all over the map. I personally suspect that large penis size is also a product of sexual selection since more fun for her. If he's got a large of so having for longer more regularly because of violations hidden. So he has to be available all the time. So she to be available, all the time in the system doesn't work and that's what creates pair bonding
so humans copulate for a very long period of time. If you compare us to the other primates, with the single exception of bonobos Ann, we have way bigger penises than any of the other great apes and I suspect that's something that is female. I mean women, I would say why are men so obsessed with a penis size, but I suspect that there are the creator of it and that's why we're so obsessed women who say that are playing games. No, that's ridiculous. I now know went definitely games? That's like men who are saying: why are women so obsessed with big breasts? We don't even care because I've never met a guy. Who said that it is some some out there. That's playing games passionately right, yeah, it's! It is fascinating when you think about all these different things that lead to natural selection in the fact that there's so many variables that are in place and that we're trying to find out what is better and what is not, and if you have a study and the study
finds genetic differences in ethnic genetic differences and there's there's there's a lot of blowback back a lot push back. Yes, that will be an and one of the interesting things that we do now is. If you think about how homo sapiens evolved in Africa, then a small percentage of us left, which means the majority of his didn't, try it. I mean those few rare, and who lived up in the top right hand, corner were available to go, which means all the rest of the earth comes out of a few small percentage of the population could have left, and so we now know, there's enormous genetic, very and within Africa Way more genetic variation within Africa than outside of Africa or then between any two people, like a chinese person in a norwegian person, are much more closely related to each other genetically than an african guy who lives in the next village over and so because most of the variability never left the continent,
and so we had this idea of race as if it is genetic, meaning and it doesn't, but ethnicity does have genetic meaning right. So an ethnic group involved in a very certain spots deal with very certain problems and their body shape will vary. You got these W Africans or a really jacked with these big must a lot of pictures much richer. You don't see that over on EAST Africa very much. Got tall people in Denmark. You don't see that you know in other parts of Europe, etc, so p, for the adaptation like the Inuit to deal with the cold climate, exactly also, and lots of that's adaptation in a lot of that's just random genetic drift, a founder population other causes that aren't involved, but nonetheless, he big impact on what the population ends up. Looking like It's just so amazing to consider that this entire species, essentially except for the times that we interacted with interbred with neanderthals, came from one part of Africa
You know that's one of the reasons why racism is so preposterous, 'cause we're, essentially all Africa. We are all african and we've all of us were out have a little bit of other stuff in the US, but just a tiny bit which so weird, though, were so we're so much like dogs. You know, like a great Dane, can breed with a poodle. Yeah and they don't look anything like each other. If you were from another planet, you know well, that's definitely today. But that's going to happen. It's like if you looked at Lebron James and you know, Traci lords, two different things. They really do, and I suspect it when we ran into neanderthals, were like oh she's, kinda, interesting, looking sort of hot sort of different You know. First, we know humans will copulate with almost anything that old sales rightly yeah, and things that aren't even alive yeah things that aren't alive things that things that they prob we shouldn't be etc, but the end of tall ones are interesting, 'cause, really they are cousins, their cousins separated by a million years, and some change
and- and we don't know too much about them either, which is really weird. We know they had larger brains than us, but we don't really know how smart they were now in and and why do we replace them yeah like did we was it diseases we carry that wired them all out was it we were better organized, so we got rid, we all competed them. We kill them on purpose. You know, if there's a me, clean ranch species. We happen to know, but a lot about neanderthals, 'cause they're existed till very recently, but what we there's also it's a branching that took place early on lots of different us. Look at the scenes, etcetera yeah. Almost all those are dead ends yeah and you know the fact that we're the only one that comes out of that could mean. Well, we got lucky, all, were mean as shit, and we took care of all of our cousins who didn't you know we wanted what they had. It think the ladder so mean, and it doesn't make sense that we were mean as shit a million years ago were mean as shit and, frankly and what's so interesting is you know? This is something that coming back to the point,
make an earlier bus cooperating. So we evolved to cooperate with each other, but the key is. We did not evolve to cooperate across different groups So once you get to homo erectus and now you got division of labor and you've got the capacity to plan for unfelt needs. Were they're carrying these acheulian tools with them over great distances. Tetra. Well, now, who's your most effective, predator, occasional mammoths were Saber tooth Tiger will kill the occasion, one of us, but they can't Take us on the same way we can take them on there's only one other thing on the planet that can take us on and that's ourselves to other groups of homo erectus would have probably been a major threat. Certainly by the time we're home, the sapiens other groups would have been our only major threat, yeah, and so we evolved to be kind to each other within our group, but we did not evolve to be kind outside our group it doesn't mean we evolved to be mean we evolved to be neutral. So, let's see, if you're going to be friend or foe and then neutrality super important. It has the potential for cooperation across group boundaries. We can change.
Women and men can mingle. So we don't interbreed too much amongst ourselves. We can trade with each other lots of good things can happen with the second. You guys a little bit aggro with us. You know now we're in a position to just go all out and try to exterminate you and so right. Some of these great data richer Wrangham same catching. Fire guy shows that if you look at the rates of violence within human groups compared to chimps to like Five hundred times more violent, physically aggressive than we are you look at the rates between human groups. Equal. There are one to one ratio, so we tend to think about. Well, how could it be we're both so nice and so mean, but we have to remember that we evolved to cooperate in to be nice to each other to be more effective. Colors. It wasn't because, let's make a hippie paradise, it's like shit. These lines are going to eat us. You are not going to have to get together to sort out these guys and so our cooperate nature is literally the flip side of the coin of our competitive, violent killing nature. Also so the undeniable history of unbelievably ruthless tribal
warfare would indicate that we have a long history of fighting against others that are like us that we don't know absolutely when huh, gathers meet each other and they do come into conflict, which is a huge percent of the time they literally fight to the death. Because if you catch me, you're going to torture me to if I'm female you're going to corporate into in your system, and then it's going to be okay, not great, but okay, but if I may I'm gonna die. So I might as well die fighting you now, because I'm gonna die pleasantly later yeah and that's super common. That's everywhere. We see it and this tons and tons of bodies that are have helpfully perforated that there are the clearly the consequences, this kind of war- it's crazy there. That is the ought to be even in two thousand eighteen inevitable, part of being human being the warfare even to this day is thought to be inevitable, because
no I mean we would lose all love that one day there be no war fare, but there's no indication whatsoever that that's taking we're not almost there, and I actually, I think, pickers got the best answer to this question, which is basically what what structures do you need to put in place to make the world a safer and less violent place, and and I'm if you've talked him about his book, better angels of our nature. I know you talk, come up more recent ones, but, yes, better angels is a great example. It's a great book. It's a great example how we become less and less violent even over a lifetime, and part of that is undoubtedly better. Governance structure and all that, but part of that, I think it cycles on itself. So when I was a little kid, this kind of thing probably happened to you. I was on when I in kindergarten, the guy who drove our car pool was a cop. So this cop is driving home in the back of his car. Now he's got no see belts 'cause. This is one thousand nine hundred and sixty nine in cars. Don't have seatbelts right, big bench seat in a Buick or something and we come corner. They all slide up against me to the edge of the car seat and I'm trying to push back.
Put on this little guy right and I can't and I hit the I must to hit the elbow against the door the flies open, a real out of the car. Oh, my god, I go bouncing across the street right so he's you know, he's not gonna ride home into. Handed so course he goes and retrieves me from the ditch, and he brings me home. Because my mom and I'm bleeding and bruised and torn clothes certain you know like you'd, expect from bouncing out of a car, and my mom was a pediatrician, so she could tell I wasn't badly damaged. Look Simmons is he looks? Fine, don't worry about it, but can you imagine somebody brought your kid home said: hey man, really, sorry Joe, your daughter fell out the car bounce across the Freaking street, you into a throttle them and be freak out, and that's not that long go either. Now this is one thousand nine hundred and sixty nine, when you and I are both on this planet, and so what I think is part of, what's pinker's documenting is, as the world gets safe We start getting used to a no mayhem world and these these
I am a vent stand out in our minds, and so it actually self perpetuates were the safer gets the sea for we needed to be because every little thing that goes wrong stands out in sharp relief. That's very fascinating way of looking at it. You know, what's interesting to me about thinkers work is how much pushback he gets, and particularly about the world being a safer place like people want to keep pointing towards violent episodes and and and and racism and and crime, and all these different things is different factors as if it's some sort of evidence against what he's saying when he's in operating that those current events into this large data ace- and he saying yes, it's not that we don't live in utopia, but the world is vastly safer and better now than it was a thousand years ago or ten thousand years or even a hundred years ago, but there's a. Why is there so much push back against well, so the thing is, I think, what's going on as a people worry that it doesn't look like a problem to be solved anymore right, so we knew
our kids. We both have lots of gay friends, but we didn't know it Is there not telling anybody 'cause someone's going to kick their ass if they knew that they were gay? Now? Yes, gay people are still discriminated against, but it's so much better than it was. Then what you don't want? What I think people are advocates, don't want to say well, there's no problem anymore. Because then you can allow them to still run troubles in very circumstances, even though the trouble they run into today is I thought times less than the trouble they ran to me a little same thing. Codes for racism, same thing holds for sexes and they've. All gotten so much better, but and sexual violence is a perfect example. You know if you look at if you said this isn't pickers book. If you said rape and homicide you call it both of them whatever level they are on, one thousand nine hundred and seventy two one hundred and then you track them through to the early 2000s, homicide in the? U S, homicides dropped down to like fifty rates drop down like twenty five. But if you listen to women's advocacy groups about campus sexual assault and stuff, you would never know that and the reason Who would know it is because they people worry well, if you think the prom,
getting better on its own. Then you won't keep doing anything to help fix it and that's a really unfortunate part of our psychology, because it makes people feel like there's been no progress and when you feel like there's no progress, then you think well if we need to completely overturn the whole system and try something new and that's, of course, a point of pinker's newest book. Enlightenment now know things are going freaking great turn it anarchy and all of those things are really bad ideas. Voting for somebody like Trump's are really bad idea, because things are actually running along really nicely. It's just that we tend to forget it, because every advocacy group, whose all worried about whatever their particular issue is, doesn't want the word to get out that thing There are a lot better than they used to be because I think at some fundamental level they think well, twenty five rape here, isn't bad enough. We better say that there's a hundred or you know, I'm not We do this consciously, but of course, twenty five rape or whatever. The number is is bad enough right it doesn't. It doesn't have to be the numbers. It used to be when I was a child to be a problem that all that has to be as a number above zero. Well, there seems to people develop this vet.
To interest in promoting an idea, and they want to exaggerate that idea. Why? Everett is whether it's the idea that the world is a safer place than it actually is, or whether it's the world is an idea of a more more dangerous place, and it really is and For whatever reason, once we have it in our mind that this is the thing we're mad, The two were married to this concept of poly amorous life and that this is a natural way to live or that violence. Is inevitable. And then this is just a part of who we are. We tend to promote that and we tend to have mass confirmation bias and it's it's. I think it's because we personally associate ourselves with ideas. We don't look at ideas as being a thing like if you think that something is is one way and then you're pointed towards evidence that you're incorrect, you feel like personally, you've been slighted or you being some somehow you're being diminished by your lack of being correct, but you're incorrect assumptions and notions you're, absolutely right,
there's a weird and part of being a person, it's a very weird part of being a person. It's the hardest part about being a scientist, because every good scientist is wrong. All the time. I've been wrong already on your show right, and so super hard to admit it could buy human nature. You just want you want my immediate react. Is to fight against it and not to say well hold on. What's Joe saying, no he's right, I overstated that looks back off, and so this is really lovely paper that came out in twenty eleven by and Dan Sperber and what they argued is, I think they nailed it and they said here's what it is our brain. Actually we evolved are logical processing abilities not to find out the truth of the world, but to convince you of my point of view, and so we, our logical abilities, involved in service of persuasion, not in service of seeking out the truth, because of course, if I can persuade you that The world is the way it would in a way that benefits bill, that the world is know something about the way bill wants the world to be is true, then the- it's going to be a little kinder to me. It'll fit my worldview and others will give me the things I want, and so I go through life
persuade you of my worldview rather than trying to find out what's actually out there, and so that's why you think well, smart people are going to fall. For that no smart doesn't matter smart, you are you you're, using whatever brain power you have not to to find the truth, but rather to find evidence for your particular point of view. Well, I think I think it's also a by product of ignorance, because is for the longest time. You could tell me something in. There was very little way that I could find out whether or not you're right or not we couldn't know you're, correct and less. I went and started doing research and read some books and whereas now I could just pull up my phone and say hey Bill just said this: is that right, the phone got. No there's been one hundred different studies that show that and you go. Oh look, mother fucker! I got the stats on Google, this shit, that's true, and that definitely matters a lot. This awesome democratization of knowledge, but if that really were
all that it was then everybody would agree on their politics. Everybody would agree that the fake news was fake and the real news was real, not necessarily because this is a fairly recent invention, but what I'm getting at is that. I think that the ability to be deceptive was, perhaps there was an evolutionary advantage. Oh absolutely, so that's one of the very first thing that happens when you have theory of mind 'cause as soon I realize the contents of your mind different from the contents of my own. I say: oh, I can plant some and Joe's mind it'll help me that ain't true, but if he believes it is life, will be better for me right and so as soon as kids learn theory of mind at age, four, they start to lie your mind. They tell the truth, but it's like I'm. Where are you you know plan? I think I'm ready are dead right right right. Are you supposed to keep quiet, but they can't, because they don't understand that you don't know the same things they now right yeah and they also understand that they could put hot, perhaps change the way you feel about them by manipulating the truth. Manipulating information yeah, it's what's weird- is having kids and seeing kids are grow up in troubled, how
forms one. One thing you see almost universally is of those kids lie a lot. You know here in the notes this condition yeah you're in a bad spot and like one of my daughter's little friends, is constantly lying, but she has broken home and the situation is not good, and it's just it's unfortunate. But this little kid is tormented because of it, she's always making stuff up and all the other little girls rolled their eyes, and they know she's a liar and it's it's sad, but the ability to be deceptive. I feel like that eight, you know there's some sort of idea that we cling to that, if you, can deceive someone about certain particular aspects of your mind or your past. What or what you accomplished, so what you're capable of doing that, you will have a better place in the social chain. Now that's abs,
right and so the way I think about it. Think about the difference between conspecific conflicts, conflicts between members of the same species and conflict between predator and prey. So every time predator and prey interact. Eventually one of them is going to die. There are going to starve praise going to get eaten right, but when cons, Pacific members of the same species interacting we're competing over something, even if it's a very subtle level of competition, we don't want to come to blows. Is, if I'm trying to size you up be at physical blows or mental blows, there's suffering We need both sides if we have to Duke it out, and so I want to sell myself as being a little more than I really am. I want to be bill plus twenty percent, and you want to save yourself a little more than you really are, because we know that we're not fully going to test each other 'cause, there's negative consequences for testing and whenever this negative consequences, even for the winter for testing, there's a lot of posturing, that's going to go on and that posturing is something is literally built into our psyche and we go through life trying to self inflate on average. What it does is, but on average, trying to self inflate as much as we can in order
to gain the things in life that we might not if we are brutally honest about what our capabilities actually are, that is so fascinating that we cling to all these ancient structures that are in place when it comes to the way we interact with each other and how important is like the social exchanges that we have and that I think this is one the reasons why we cling to ideas so much that these, ideas right? If you can push an idea through, you've got some sort of points on the board yep yeah, once on the board. In an probably your ideas on average are going to benefit you and my ideas on average are going to benefit me, and so, if I'm if I'm happily married in a monogamous relationship and I'm not looking now within monogamy, is a great thing and sleeping around is a sin. But if I'm, if I'm single and I've got opportunities well, then I probably hold alternative you, so on average our views not perfectly, but on average our views serve as well, and if I can plant my views in your mind and I've benefited yeah, I
I saw that a lot. I mean you got to see that a lot with everything, but I guess more to what we're talking about people that don't want to admit like what about when it comes to like pinker state, yeah about the world being a better place 'cause. They have almost a vested interest in stirring up fear and their commit the in their mind, they're committed to constant studying the wrong of the world in the evil of the world, and that any sort of diminishing of that is actually going to cause harm to the people that are suffering. So I think they have a good the in their mind. There's good intentions. I totally agree yeah and the data are consistent with their strategies because, on average fear, appeals and anger of his work a lot better than him, and things are great. Donate to this car will keep some great that doesn't work at all. It doesn't work at all yeah and so when, when, via was invented in nineteen. Eighty, nine,
my little brother and I were we were chatting about it. We thought you know this will save some animals, because a lot of animals that are consumed for their presumed potency for a fax by like two some chinese medicine, consumers and things like that, and so we thought boy if actually works prior to cyber, nothing is out there that works up at this eleven impact, and so we wrote this little letter off, send it to a journal and said you know this is going to save certain animals like seals, which they could be harvested to eat their Canadian Lowell sentiment. What I know, people that you're you're allow how to kill a certain number. You can't kill the seals in America, they are protected, but in Canada, us, but in Canada you can, there's could see a allowed men and a harp seal allotment, and so people were killed. Up to their lot mentzen selling. You could do it solely for the and sell the penis for enough money to make your money back now. What purpose does Seals penis have beyond the seals, original purpose, zilch right but eat it, because it's supposed to make you more potent the saddest one is a rhino horn.
No horn is an example. That's used for lots of different things, so it's less likely to be helped, but the seal penis is only people, basically only using it for its potency and then one violet comes along, like literally your shopping in the supermarket when you get hit by you're going to have some c Venus are all take a viagra we just had. People are going to switch. We were greedy, throw both of Jacque Reid tried both and and people did actually, but but we we made this argument and we literally were attacked by the World Wildlife Fund government, looking at plan to revive seal sales at what hold the one. Is this recent? This it's was update is published in twenty fifteen but was updated. This may what the government is. Looking at a plan go back up to revive I'm seal penis sales. Okay, this must a plan, was brought to the government. This must not be the worst way of like looking at that headline is that the government's thinking man we got a revive these penis sales, no ones by
concealed other day because they actually may thinking that, because you got some relatively impoverished, people are hunting for them and no ones buying them anymore So, if you're not going to wear that, if you're not real, the report drafted by the firm Institute is aimed at creating new markets to support an earlier proposal to kill one hundred and forty one thousand grey seals over five years in this southern Gulf of Saint Lawrence seventy percent of grey seals that frequent the area so there what they want to do is they want to diminish that? Here's? What it is they have long into the growing population of grey seals is to blame for eating too many commercially viable fish, which has resulted in repeated calls for a call okay, so they want to kill the seals so to save the fish market, so they're going to get people to buy dicks, so they make it financially viable. Look at this. This is racist, the penis is a juvenile adult. Animals may be dried and sold as sexual enhancement products, particularly asian buyers,
Well, that's because it's not meant to be racist is because in traditional chinese medicine the seal penis was used as a potency product. I understand, but the target those Asians those poor fools, but then uh peoples anymore, because you know what they switched. So we write this paper and literally the World Wildlife Fund of texas- and I did not see that coming right. I thought boy, the world Wild, the fund is going to be psyched because here's some good news for a change right, but they don't want good news. They only want bad news because people pay and they do what they can to fix things when it's bad news and they for that you got to have some good news along the way. Are people give up look at this? This is it says here, age, consumers, particularly athletes, also consume a beverage called. How do you say that Dallas Shen oral liquid is made from seal, penis and testicles, which they believed to be any? Jaising, an performance enhancing how 'bout some studies motherfucker before you start eating, sealed dicks? Well, I get it and try it see, no good bro.
Only that why would you take that when you get fucking by Ghagra, exactly guarantee of Viagra is better it is I mean if it's not better, it's good enough like what are you trying to do so? So we actually because we got attacked by the World Wildlife fund. We sent a one of my graduate student from Hong Kong. We need to send him to go back to Hong Kong for the holidays to go. In fact, You are the World Wildlife Fund because they said they were wrong. People won't switch They say how did they phrase it? Well, they wrote in. Article they rebutted us and they said no. Now our data show when we try to get people to which, from Rhino and Tiger Horn Aspirin, they wouldn't, and so they were aspirin yeah, so they were switch to Viagra, and I'm like look, I think fire is different from aspirin. I gotta headache. I take an aspirin see, I think my headache got better. Faster than it would have otherwise, a little bit fake. You need Viagra, you take it. You like yep that sucker worked right, there's visual evidence, and so we argue that it's different,
and so we actually went into these clinics and we asked people in traditional chinese clinics in Hong Kong. What do you take for a headache? What do you take for gout? What do you take for wrecked I'll dysfunction, and that was the one? These were they'd switched consumers all over the world. They know when to bed. Product comes along. They know when they've got no options like well. You might as well eat seals penis because that's as good as anything or nothing works, maybe you a little bit of a placebo effect or you know, oh, hey, look, there's something that actually works. That's what I'm going by what I read about one of the issues with rhino horn with some asian buyer. Is that also it's a it's a signal of affluence. That's exactly right! Yeah, it's prestige purchases, so it is super sad as shit ever because that is such a crazy animal, but bizarre creature. That almost see is like a living dinosaur and we're losing them left and right, because people are killing them for their fucking horn, which is basically just college right now, it's bananas, it just
doesn't make any sense to me that that is still that they haven't realized that there's no value in it that there's no physical value. It doesn't really give you erections and what else is supposed to do? Fever fever, it's kind of a long list, unfortunately, and still buying it in there but and they're buying it again for affluence. They get a kick out of that bind a Maserati wow. That's so crazy! That's so sad on my daughter's outside the door. Hi yeah, hey, bother us yeah. It's so strange to me that there are these specific cases right like it's not like people. Looking for a giraffe horns. They're looking is there looking for rhino? Do you think that they He made an association like damn. If I was Jack like I know, this checks are black me. I need to get that horn and eat it in my dick get high or like. I do think so, because if you look at the long list of products, they look pretty phallic and mostly people eat valley things in order to gain potency. Is there something cry the seal dicks like
they're decently, sized decent, a good word? I like that, and so I know you think, are you that's a girl, get big to write off we're so weird, but it's weird that in the in the face of new evidence of people have been adopted. You know this new evidence and they looking some people claim to be ideas, so our premodern ancestors didn't understand germs at all right. There was, they could? It's such a bizarre idea that something that small could kill you, but they did know that if I touched you when you're sick, I might end up sick too, and that seems almost like a magical transference and if you accept this and they all know that they they'll they'll shy away. We all of off Japan's will shy away from disgusting stuff, open sores and, and will they refund yeah? Absolutely if you get the right kinds of illness, that manifest. You're seriously outwardly sick. Can he just find it disgusting and so that kind of match contagion, it's super easy to see why that well, then it make. You think that well, rhino Horn will make my dick bigger too yeah. I guess
I mean? Is there any instances where that stuff is real, where it does actually work that way? Nothin, I can't think of any well. This is the Is that the? U you being sick will make me sick right right, no question, but nothing that what you eat and animals thing you consume. No, but if it's a case. Imagine is that like car after you- and I chat- you say- hey Bill Here- have my jacket and now I go out with you jacket on. If you go home and got Joe Rogan Jacket, he's cool and I've little bit of your cool, and now the girls would like me too, and that does happen like when Hercules put that lions head on yeah the the head over in the blinds nine. Am that you you kicked some to have that thing. That's true! Yeah yeah! I guess you know this is it. It is we're so weird yeah now the they. The human animal itself is a such a strange thing in the more you study at the more you go deeper and
for into the layers of weirdness that we are and- and psychology is pretty good about finding out our average weirdness- is we're not so good at finding out there really unusual weirdness is 'cause. We can't predict that one out of one thousand behavior very well. We can predict what people tend to do when the bell curves tend to split. We can't say what some random psycho or genius or artist or whatever will do under those circumstances. 'cause. That's not what our models are designed for. It's some! It's! It's so interesting when you think about our interactions, also with all the various animals that we've come up, you come across, like all all throughout our five as human beings and that people chose is some to some to cherish and some to some gone is, is food sources and some to worship and right and and often makes good sense like so dogs are great because we have great vision, our noses and ears, don't work very well if we could have somebody around who could hear and smell well and is on our side. That's a huge plus right. It's worth feeding them
thing, or at least tolerating it in indeed scraps and some of them cats. You know their, they don't like you, but they're, good killing rats and other vermin that would have once we're agriculturalist. Those vermin would have been a real problem. They Margie irrelevant when we're still Hunter gatherers, but so we had dogs with skip those. What were hunter gatherers, but cats. The best I know, is like ancient Egypt in his these societies. In our storing grain and things like that, so those ancient systems make good sense. Your may in a deal with an animal that can achieve something that you can't achieve and, of course, you're living in a world without chemicals and machines and all that kind of stuff, but tons of them are just totally random and in this culture. That thing is worshipped in this culture. It's eaten and you know, and that that sort of stuff is super hard to predict now in studying all this stuff and writing this book. How much does this change the way you just see Hume, like as you're just going to the mall. It does change. If I see you see like I remember being proud of my son when he told a lie 'cause. I was like oh good on
and so we are, in the in the playground and this little boys playing with him and my son doesn't have a lunch box at all. He doesn't own one and the little boy says spider, man, lunch Box and my son is four, four and a half and he looks at the kid and he doesn't know Spiderman it's 'cause. He hasn't seen the show yet, but he knows it's off the kid, dragon. It's obviously something good and he goes yeah add, a Grassmann Anna, a leaf man, lunch box because he just made that nobody just made this shit up right because spiders right, the Spiderman there's a grass man he's looking around for other things, and so I was actually proud of it because it showed a he's got theory mine down. He knows with the kid, can we can't know and be he know, I said telling these stories are going to be important for his place. In the social hierarchy, so the key looks at me and I'm like trying not to laugh right 'cause. I gotta support my son and he's like really and I'm like. Damn kids, and so you can imagine,
without his background, you might say, look look we should discourage, is Caroline right, but if they give you a little bit of a different perspective on it's also probably we're because you, you know your kid realizes yeah. My dad's got back to that. You have a question and thanks bro exactly and then should always have the kids back yeah, but Grassmann in leaf man. You got home aside, like dude, you gotta come up with an animal that sort of thing right. This is something that's kind of Manuka Grassmann actually do besides photosynthesize getting by cow, but he was on the spur of the moment and he's only four. So I decided it was good enough there's also cattle worshipping is very fascinating to the like the Hindus and all these different different tribes and different cultures that worshiped cattle or other people just thought of them as food sources right and so yeah. I don't know the origins that, but you can imagine a system whereby well, if you keep cattle and you benefit from them, rather than eating them, you're going to get some gains from that, and we do know
when you shift from being an together to basically killing and eating stuff to being a pastoral list. So you have cattle, are sheep or whatever or to being a farmer you suddenly have to. Taken on the long game, so humans are perfectly capable of envisioning on felt needs, no matter what kind of society there in but not together, is a living for today, and so it's good kill it. You know, haunted shared out amongst all of us and then we eat it and then we'll worry about tomorrow when it comes along well, once you shift to having herds or having land, you can't that psychology doesn't work anymore, and so what super interesting is it took literally like ten or twenty thousand years? We've got the implements in place to be agriculture less, but we're not planting, and it just we're just grinding stuff that we gather, and why did it take so long to plant? Well, maybe it was whether maybe was a bunch of things, but part. Is you have to shift your psychology over and say? Alright, I gotta stop thinking about eating, killing and eating it. Today I gotta say well alright, well to be beneficial to me to keep this beast around and have it for tomorrow and drink its blood or its milk or whatever, and one way
get there might have been well. Let's, let's create a religion that says we can't eat him today, 'cause that'll solve it immediately. That's one way to look at it, but have you ever looked into some of the other hypothesis on the origin of cattle worship? I think it again has to do with Psilocybin, because that could be too happy. So they couldn't grow in cow shit and every time we cool and not only that, but it would because it has benefits like societies, can do anything they want and there's some crazy systems that they do and a lot of those are really bad ideas, the sources of infection and disease and death and those societies ten not to grow, but societies that do things that happen to be good ideas, even if they got it from mushrooms and things like that. Those are going to really pass along. So you got a lot of people on this planet to worship, cows, which suggests that, whatever, not, that started actually probably had a benefit, because those societies grew and because worshipping cows, not something like, when you come to me and say man, I worship cows and I'm thinking- ok I'd rather eat them, but fine right, it's hard to imagine being persuaded, but it's easy to.
Imagine growing up in that system over imitating right. We talked about that. You automatically just copy Dad war, it's cal's things are working out well, for him all do the same brand and then you've got and that's a good thing for your society, because you can trick it's blood or it's milker. Whichever is do you like to call it whatever you do and then that allows your society to grow? Was there anything? So prizing to you in in writing this book and researching it and putting it together? Was there anything that really just had made you step back and go wow I didn't see that one common look there's a lot of things that I didn't see coming and a lot of times where I thought I had an idea of how it all worked, and then I thought I would read a lot of more papers and I know that's not even possible. They didn't have that capability or whatever what surprised he was that a big part of where this book comes from. Is that then, Alex would say they would know I'm working on this and they will come to give a talk at my conference on leadership and I'd say. Well, I don't know anything about leadership and that will surely some It must have implications for that and every time they ask to do that. You know I'd, say: ok, give it a try and then
So you sit down and think about it. You might as well. There are important implications for leadership or innovation or happiness or soci ality, and I never saw them coming and so is lit the friends of mine kind of force? I had one goal, which is to just understand social intelligence and how to it becomes socially intelligent and the, and that, where I started in friends just kept asking me to look at other things in every time I did there was an answer. It sometimes there's an answer, that's easier to find a sense harder to find, but it was always there and what that tells me is that there's really a lot of value in taking the anthropology in the biology and putting them together and sang art? Where do we come from and now what can that tell it's about who we are today. That's an interesting stuff, like sort of intellectual extra, that is to write a different perspective on the material that you're going over. Is somebody force Is you into a little box like tell me, you know what what what you know what's the influence on or what the impact on creativity yeah. I was the impact on leadership for all these different yeah yeah yeah. Just to give you a different view, let's look at it right.
Left, let's look at it from the top prosecutor from below and now it's so fun about science. Is you can say all right? Well, let's see if it tells us anything that either we already know is true, and now we can get new things that we would know about it or if it tells us something that we don't even know, but that might explain, in the way the world is and both of those are valuable 'cause then you can run often try to test them and a lot of dead ends. I mean that's what science is all about, but some of them will hopefully not be dead ends and you'll run off into and holy. Now I understand innovation. Now I understand whatever, what's into thing about this kind of material is that it gives you a to me as a individual kiss me inside and my own behavior, and I think it would do a lot of people do all of us, some real good. If we had better understanding of what our motivations are and how we got to this point in civilization, what we actually are. You know I mean maybe it will or won't change your behavior, but at least we'll give you some insight into. I totally agree, yeah, and the thing is that when I find myself getting upset,
as you disagree with me about something trivial or even important, like politics or something, and it takes a second you could say hold. I don't have any which access to the right way to do things right now, and so the fact that you care more about ex and I care more about- why doesn't mean that you're like an evil person and must be overcome. It means that probably we ought to be talking to each other and try find a compromise solution that makes things work best. But there's it's automatic instinct to think that you are evil, because you disagree with me and so the beauty of this kind of the more you know about this stuff in the past, in our evolutionary origins, the more you know that little we've evolved to do that, because if we didn't do that, we're screwed but now we don't need to anymore, and so now we and say hold on I'm d in your. You know in my sample, your writing and we disagree about this particular president, but a fine, let's see if we can both beyond a goal that will make both of us happy rather than know, you're evil, and all I have to do is overcome you, one of the things that I've read we tried very hard from doing this. Podcast is to not be attached ideas and to do that as an exercise, and I think
over the course of the years. I've been doing this I've gotten way way better at that, but it's it's so fascinating. When I encounter in the raw form like when I go to, party, and I just run into some guy- was a dad and he brings something up, and I tell him off is not totally true because of this, and then you see this like the blood starts pumping in the high it starts beating the trying trying to look at some way you're wrong and it becomes a personal thing. It's very very heated and it's easy for all. Is to do that in my job and your job is the same as to say: okay, is it time to abandon the site? Is time to yeah when I was young and academic. There was no way I was abandoning that was lost. All I was going to do. Is defense you attacked, and I Marshall everything I can. I tried to attack you back and it was so the colors are they came, and you know when you're wrong, it's cool, that's What science is on a cot, you're right, you're right, I'm gonna start into now, even though I love the give and take of academics, and I love to argue about stuff, I try really really hard to keep in
my well. What if what you're saying right now is right rather than trying to just attack it, which is my automatic instinct disabled one of one? What is it that you're saying now might be a value that I should actually incorporate I'm not trying to stomp yeah and also just the id he is, aren't you you're you, and these ideas are just something that you're tossing around like a beach ball, yeah exactly right and that's super hard to keep in mind, because everything that we come to own we get attached to and if I tend to have my ideas because they tend to make the world a more hospitable place to bill, then in a way I kind of do need to defend them, because if you convince me know the the way the world should work ever strong. This gets everything. Well, I'm stuffed, and so I need to try to fight against a lot of alternative views, and I have to overcome that in my effort to define what the right answer is as well. So it makes good sense that our ideas are like possessions that we have attitudes toward our ideas. Just like we have toward the objects that we own. That means something to us to our fan, the tour group, etcetera that all makes really good sense
and the other side of that coin is if we talk about the way things used to be. In a pre medical world if the chances of you caring, different pathogens and I carry is reasonably high and if you infect me, I'm screwed now, if you do things differently than I do things so you eat this food and I eat that food white different could actually be wrong from my perspective, 'cause, if I do what you've done, I might get myself sick, 'cause, you've adapted to that thing, and so we, literally probably for good evolutionary reasons, came to view cultural ways of doing things that are different as if they're wrong, because that saved us that protected us from the kind of pathogen vectors that you've gotten adapted to, but that I haven't that's fascinating, so this is all like ingrained in us. Well, we've evolved to be this way, and so it's hard to undo that. Do you think that, with the access to information that we're currently enjoying that, because there's so much information now and it's so easy to get to that. Perhaps
there will be more instances of people not becoming attached. Their id doesn't recognize that they are, they are so for the you are just a thinking organism and what the facts are and what reality is is just something that's happening and you don't have to be put recently attached to it. It's not a part of your identity. I hope so because in an ideal world. We could have the things that were attached to that. Don't really matter, I'm Iphone guy and you're an android right. Who cares right? We could argue about it to be silly and have an exact time exactly. We could still be friends and all that, and then we could win this something in the mattered an know. This political strategy will make everyone poop or or sicker or whatever. Then we could be willing to change their minds because in the end I think we've got this evolved design where to latch onto these things, these ideas and values and products even and all that, and so it would be nice if we could do it with the trivial and let the stuff that really matters guide rs by its accuracy, will it be also nice if that the stuff that we do with trivial
it? It stays actually trivial because there's so many people on what will? I guess it goes with sports teams, and but it also goes with like brands of cars I've heard people say I have always been a Ford guy love for it's like okay. It probably reminds you the forward. You gather over whatever I guess, but it's like I would never buy a chevy. Alright, I'm ok, look really! Never it's funny. It's like what is the best fucking car ever is Chevy and you have the opportunity to buy you like now, I'm a Ford guy like right. Wait what benefits you some strange reason there's some weird motivation in a stick to your initial statements: yeah so uh things like Oliver Wendell Holmes or someone who's had a foolish consistency. Is the hobgoblin to small minds right, but we all have these finished consistency, because part of the problem is, if I move around with the wind, you look at me as I'm a nothing right I can't stand flopper. If I can't stand by what I believe in then you have no respect for me. But what? If you? What? If you? What you believe? vin is incorrect.
That's how you supposed claim to that It's really weird. So what you obviously would you ideally want? Is here's my value structure and its unchangeable and then negotiable? And yet, when you show me the time that my added They are impeding my own goals, then I'm willing to change them to achieve that value structure and I think the best politicians and scientists artists and comedians and all the rest of the ones? Who can do that? Yeah! Think what you said like here's, my value structure, this is alright ethics? These are my morals. This is how I treat people. This is who I am, but all that other. If it's just information yeah, it's all means to an end, and so some p apple care a lot about loyalty. Other people care a lot about fairness, other people. I care a lot about sanctity impurity right, there's different values that are important all of the world. We all care about him, but some people wait one set more important more than another set John hide it. I don't know if you've had him on your show, I haven't he does this work and he's one of the first people who push these ideas and you can predict them by people's politics and stuff like that, and so,
If we all agree they all matter what the problem is, then we get into an argument. Where you tell me, loyalty is more important than I take fairness or harm is broke portent, and then we we're going to see eye to eye. Well, that's you know with two humans that are healthy. That's an interest discussion, because why do you think fairness is more important? Why do I think discipline is more important in fairness or to education is more or whatever it is that I I think that the when someone clings to this idea that this is the most significant aspect of human civilization, that's always weird yeah and it's hard when they can't acknowledge other possibility right right and some and again all these things are, I hate to say it, but there like fifty percent genetic right. Some of us are more open minded and some of us are more close minded and there's probably good reasons to be that way that made your. That made you successful under one set of circumstances versus another, because you know extra version. For example, almost all people prefer extraverts over introverts but x rivers are all sorts of risk for disease, because they're constantly up in everyone's face and so in an
personal environment. It was probably pretty costly to be extroverted and you pay the price it that introverts didn't have to pay when you got check what is also like. We demand so much creativity and insight from introvert, of course, no, but it, but but at a social level, extroverts benefit introverts. My been arrived in running Microsoft, to be the greatest artist and all that and that's again disbanded. Talked about this early in the beauty about being human? Is how many different ways you can achieve the same goal? Yeah? What thoughts on the influence of epigenetics look at super interesting, so my I know little about it very little about it. My Avril Genetics colleague insisted there's no good evidence among humans for multi generational epigenetic effects. We know that they exist now in some animals, because you can do the experiments pretty easily to get these multi generational epigenetic. The genetic, offense planes people were talking amongst. Yes, so it be epigenetics is basically you can turn jeans on and off in the simplest sense, and so environmental factors will matter like Maybe when you're in utero there's a famine and that's a common thing,
let's look that will look at that in in rats, for example under feed the mother when the baby is in there and that causes the babies methylation of some of the jeans, I don't understand the science of it at all. But turn some jeans on some jeans off and so a baby of a mother rat who was raised, who is in utero when the mother was underfed FED, will mature more rapidly it'll eat everything, that's not nailed down and it'll have text with lots more rats than a regular than a rat that wasn't the didn't, have its mother start, and the key thing is that makes good sense, because it's a way to respond at times open chrome fast, as you can reproduce quickly, as you can, because you know reproduce the currency of evolution. The fact that you exist in live is trivial. The fact that you passed on your jeans, that's what evolution works with, so it's a great way to change with the local environment, and this very interesting evidence that then those effects are even in the next generation so that the child of a that was that was in a mother who is underfed, will also
I have some of these strategies, don't believe they find that in humans as well. We all have suffered from famine. That's the argument, but none of the data might be able to Nicholas is none of those data are robust enough. It's sort of like some of the Christmas you made of what I've said and you're right. The data suggest things that b, but there's lots of alternative excellent right. So we don't yet know. I'm in I've read is about longevity that there was some sort of evidence that points to the the descendents of people who survive famine. They they live longer right, and so the question might be. Why So we know, for example, that if you're in utero during famine, males are more likely to be aborted than females when it gets really bad. Female fetuses are probably more robust, but if you ignore that gender effect, in all probability those feed this is that could survive in a mother during feminine,
just be the more robust specimens right, and so you might just be calling out the people wouldn't of lived as long Brian, and so it's super hard. You know you don't do experiments on these things in humans. You can do experiments in mice and rats and and try to find these things out the down downside is you know if you read about a million cancer drugs that are really going to help us and then they disappear? It's because it works in my mouse and it doesn't work in us and the downside of things. Even mice and rats differ from each other and so and we're a long way from either of them, and so the epigenetic effects that they show. There may be good reason why we don't yeah there's some real ethical questions in regard to running studies like that on human beings and we're going to develop headless humans in the lab. I have no soul that we could do tests on what we could, but I actually think that what we will get really good at is that the issue you raised earlier- and that is I don't know everything- that's ever happened to you but someday
it will be possible to know a ton of that stuff and I'll be able to rule out all sorts of alternative causes, and I it is a perfect example. You guys Talk about that a lot in this show. Well, how do we know that this particular collection of foods? Will actually do you any good? How do we know how well people are sticking to it and a big part of those effects are actually the psychological effects. So protein is a really good example that you know C Simpson argued in the early 90s that if you started locus that animals are motivated to eat as a function of how much protein that they've consumed, and so the Atkins Diet was the right eye. Yeah but a misunderstanding of the cause: it's just that protein we evolved to feel full. When you get protein, we didn't evolve to feel full from vibrates and there's a host of reasons for that and the host of other effects that are going on at the same time, but the consequences that is then those dietze move around. You say: oh look, this diet is this effect in that one does, but you don't actually know what they've been doing, because some diets are harder to maintain and they're cheating more whatever someday. We'll have much better
and and all that you'll be wearing a device all know what you consume, don't know an accelerometer on the wall, everything that happened to you, that's interesting aspect of genetics right there's one thing that we absolutely know that some people respond differently to die as another people do, and you know for some person a particular type of diet is like beneficial in perfect and and just locks in and other person to be horrible. Yeah have that's weird it would you know, is now a cross. The species known find that with dogs or but it it at an ethnic level. It makes perfect sense because the people have been eating different foods for a long time. I have to adapt to that yeah and, of course, agriculture is only twelve thousand years old. Total of we've been eating cereals before that and lots of societies didn't have it at all, or only had a very recently, and so it's super hard for some people eat grains compared to other people to eat grains, because there haven't adap pity the diabetes wiser all the other kinds of things that can cause it to go wrong. Certainly with alcohol. That's a giant fact exactly an alcohol. It gets invented every time,
someone, agriculture cause. All you do. Is you accidentally leave it there too long and ferments right and so and and a argument that we actually vault to have a tolerance for beer rather than a detail, distaste for it because once were in early agricultural settlements for the first time ever work, trapping. Where were drinking we're not moving on, and so we Fowler I'm drinking water, so beers literally safer to drink than water, low beer and wine low grade alcohol, and so the data suggests what people argue is. We evolved to actually have a taste for it, but a tolerance to it rather than a distaste which makes sense, evolutionarily, getting drunk with hippos running around. We can be a good idea also, if you think about wine or any booze the first time you I think it is discussed yeah it's hard to develop a taste for it exactly right and so, and lots of things that way. Tabasco you know to the spices, have antibacterial effects, and so the mothers are given it to the kids. Wear it like out my mouth to be on fire.
Fight with some six year old can eat in India, or so it wasn't initially why they added Rossabi to sushi. That's what a lot of people argue in fact, as you work your way from the poles to the equator, you get more more spices, 'cause course in Sweden, there's six pathogens and you had certain pepper and enjoyable jungle, and then african you have zillion spices to get garlic. All these things are super powerful, antibacterials. How that is Really interesting way of looking at it yeah, I'm sure right, like Mexico, very spicy food, warm climate totally makes sense exactly and the same thing happens with the profusion of religions and languages the closer. Get to the creator, the more languages you have in their religions, yet because people start saying on the other side of the valley. Literally, you could have a pathogen that makes me sick, and so I'm going to stay away from you and by staying away from you overtime, we developed different languages, different religions, again back to Sweden, whatever
you got. I got those three things to have right and so you're not a risk to me and we share the same language. We intervene, go much more readily and there's more ethnocentrism as you go close to the equator wow to keep in keepin. Apart makes good evolutionary sense under those sir stance, but we live in a world where no one Stephen apart exact. Now we live in a world. Where makes it much much more difficult and you don't mess is leased in our in our blood sit, industrialized democracies where we've got good medicines, at least for now they still work. You don't need to anymore right, but we also have these crazy factor farming, setups that lead to the kind of horrible superbe bugs that could kill a million people. We do that. I remember when I first found that out that most of the major flus like avian flu, swine flu, I didn't why they were calling it the swine flu and then I found out now from domesticated pigs and then it somehow morphs and jumps to humans like why, and that was the cost we paid with agriculture. So the first time we were starting to get
by jowl with a bunch of animals and agriculture I mean Hunter gathers. The animal never lives long enough to give you the flu right right, wow. So everything you know. There's always pay This is in minus, is when you change how you do things and we you and I are really lucky. We live in a time where all these great medicines existing they haven't become worthless. Yet and now it's really a race against the evolve, evolution, the bacteria and rising new medicines that can continue to defeat them, because everything is becoming treatment, resistant right, that's how evolution works and that's just starting to happen, and so now scientists have to work double time to keep inventing new drugs to stay ahead of the game, with the exception of some things that just for whatever reason there don't seem to be able to have all resistances to them. Well, what's fascinating to me is not just scientists creating these vaccines and all these different medicines to deal with these diseases, but the potential of shutting off jeans
yeah attention, all of altering the human genome and using things like whatever the for the future version of crisper is going to be to. Let me they were there any figured out a way to stop certain diseases right here of a single gene. Things are great, yeah, remember with everything being so polygenic, you don't just want to shut it down, nilly right and so then really what you're at the advantages, the point you made or earlier so my diet should be sixty percent protein in your should be fifteen mentor. Mind should have more leafy vegetables in yours whatever, and will be able to know that will know how my gut is going to respond to it and how you're going to respond to it. Well, that's one of the things 23Andme actually does they do show like what foods would be more likely to be allergic to who and what things would be most likely to be attracted and that's a great start, but what we really need is a polygenic scores to tell you: how do you process leafy vegetables? How do you process fats? How do you process all that stuff? And so because jeans?
for most of our wait, that's most of the variance in our weather, obese or not, but nobody was obese when you and our kids right tons of people Where is not so what those jeans really are is jeans to sensitivity to something changed, in our environment, either activity levels of the foods reading or our process they are or how much car but whatever we don't know, but that's what we're actually genetically sensitive too, because all Let's have the same underlying problem that evolution didn't worry about obesity, because the problem is the opposite starving, and so we not really good at telling when were full and there's testing evidence that suggest really lovely studies that show that really one of the key guys of appetite was variety when you eat less variety, your that's when your stomach tells your full really much more reliably but, as you add variety to your debt, which everybody on earth can do, well everybody's got any money on earth can do now that actually you, you short circuit, the best mechanism. We had to tell us to stop eating. Yeah. That's interesting and now is an argument that people who are expo
It's on nutrition are making about. One of the more recent diet plans that people using the carnivore diet is that just eating only meat and there's a lot people that are doing that and they're finding that they're having all these like really rapid d increases and autoimmune diseases and rapid recoveries from eczema and seborrhea and psoriasis, and the people that are there's a lot of people are saying: oh it's, the meat meets great for me, it's great for, and some new expressing more likely. This is calorie, like you're at a calorie deficit and by putting your body into a calorie deficit, you're almost like in a in a state of fasting and you're, decreasing by the way, because almost universally all these people that are so they're above the talking about the positive benefits of these diet. It's these elimination diets and just eating one thing I want to
is there is showing, as they lose a shit load of weight right, and so the thing is that I suspect you're right that either the cutting out. What for them is perpetrator and who would ever know out of the four thousand things right or it's lit really the losing weight and then hopefully they're taking multi vitamins to make up for all the stuff that they're not getting right. Yeah, I don't think they are. A lot of them are not doing that. It's it's really interesting. I've been following, pretty closely, and I've had quite a few people in the podcast, including really intelligent, guys like Jordan Peterson is, on this, and I does it big meat and salt and for me that wouldn't work, although I am I meeting fruit, basically and then very little else about grief, you leave vegetable? I know I should, but I don't like up so I really I don't let him know I don't like concert detailing rock hi. I'm Brooke is edible. Well, I doubt I should so white. My my wife makes them and all the little bit of it like a little kid yeah. I know I know I had my way it's like these arguments. I have with my eight year. I know I know and your your all's right now by the way it turns out. There are signs that make people find Brockley, more disgusting and and more and more bitter versus last,
Some people really have their tongue says no bra. Please call has been a little baby g, but the one thing I would say this is really lovely study done with the knees x and what they did. Is they fed people a couple different foods and you try? nephew, and then you eat one into your full and then, when you come back to I don't you know this know this work like Paul Rozin started if you, if I, if you're densely on Excel I talked to. I leave the room. I come back five minutes later. You don't know who I am. You got brain damage when I come back with lunch. Surely you lead a second lunch? We have such poor mechanism that tells us where full we think we do. We think, oh god, I've had a great dinner and really cool- but we don't realize, is that's really driven a lot by the knowledge that we just ate and so what rosin found when he went back and he had eat lunch to your full. He goes back inside time for lunch and literally they all lead it again, and so, what's amazing about these studies is then this follow up. So what they did is they served amnesics or control people foods that they sampled in food that they to their full, so you sample potato chips, and then you get a tuna sandwich and now I,
back to and say if you are normal- and I say, do you want to eat a potato chip? Do you? need a tuna sandwich if you're normally say well, I just had lunch, I'm not really that keen deed either of them anymore. If you're amnesic, you see I don't want a tuna sandwich, but yeah I'll have some potato chips, and so you don't even need to know you ate it, and so your hunger mechanism is still there The fact is, you've had a lot of tuna sandwich and that's controlling your appetite. It's making, you feel like you, don't want to eat it anymore and in the same sense, you go to steakhouse, you think boy. I love this. My favourites take he needed for over and then you finish it or not, and then you think I'm stuffed and somebody goes dessert. Actually yeah. That does sound good, because now you're shifting and you're eating something else. So I suspect that what guided our ancestors was the fact they had no variety. What's for dinner, not a question. You ever asked when it whatever dad killing, whatever mom dug up like there's two things there right and so you're going to gorge on the meat. There's, not a vegetarian hunter gather on the planet
when you're hungry every day, he everybody loves me. It's not only one of you can every loves it Eric in every undergo society. Meat is a big deal. Someone comes on with a big kill, it's a big deal when you can afford to be very, well FED suddenly you can start to think differently and even have different preferences, but you don't, if you're a hunter gatherer and so literally, if dad killed a giraffe you're just stuffing as much draft meet down the pipes, you can and it makes sense. If you did then involved. Ok you're going to get nothing new out of the giraffe you eat other than you're, going to pull it out. The back end. It's time to shut this dinner down right. But if you told me all look, we've got this other thing, now tell what those nutrients in that I don't already have, and so you could imagine getting hungry again, that's what they did is suggest. Well, it's it's because that's kind of the argument that these carnivore diet people use is that that is the most beneficial food, because that's the food that you look forward to the most it the right- but don't forget, you only need to do this within every meal. So if you sit down for your face Lobster dinner just have lobster, and then that does
after lunch are for breakfast tomorrow. Now you can have whatever pancakes whatever it is. The key is within every meal minimize your variety because that's where the effect is having itself it doesn't have to carry over time. It doesn't you lobster every single meal. You know what sensors? That's that's actually the Gracie diet. There's the a Jitsu family called the Gracies that start the UFC and world famous brazilian Jujitsu family, but just a family, Philip K. And one of the founders, I believe, is Carlos Gracie invented this- he invented a diet that was basically you shouldn't mix foods together. If you're eating fruits, you should eat fruits by themselves. You meet you should by itself and that in combining all these things together, your body produces a variety of different enzymes. You don't get as much nutritional absorption now that may be. I have no idea, I don't know either. I don't understand the the the underlined by a science, but what I do know. The psychology suggests that you'll stop beating sooner. If,
within anyone milieu of less right. It's a tremendous psychological of we've. We appear to have evolved to not want that any more when we've had enough of that, be it at terra, rude or mum dug up or a giraffe are dead shot. So these sort of evolutionary traits that are inside of our bodies, they would they would sort encourage us to eat much more. If we have a right, foods like if you're eating at a buffet in Vegas versus, if you just eating chick, that's the only checking nearly as much chicken is really you need, and then we'll start over. I don't want, but if this chicken and mashed potatoes corn on the cob and then Coleslaw LAN our ancestors never face their problems. The date we don't know how to deal with it and the other. Other coins. So what Steve Simpson did this guy? Who did the early study on protein? In locus? He took his biology students on field trips and he would doctor the food to increase the protein in the food or decrease it in,
but exact same foods like reading the same roles in the same sushi, but he's you know increasing levels of protein in those foods and then I'll. It's a buffet and all the does his way, the food when it starts and when it finishes across all the students eating it, and he found that as a protein levels go up the amount of food that people needed at the buffet close down so these these two parallel mechanisms, one were made a protein, and so that seems carbs do drive appetite. But not nearly as strong as proteins too. So you get the tolerance. How much carbs you lead is huge and tolerance. How much proteins you lead is very narrow and he finds out, of course, and he finds out in cricket now he finds it in humans, and then I think the other side of that coin. Is this variety and the bad luck for us right now? Is we live in a world where, especially if you're poor proteins are expensive and hard to get so you're going to have these high carb diets? And then everybody can have. Variety in variety is probably a really Thank that is so fascinating. Is that our good fortune,
our demise, exactly in so many ways I mean you know we evolved to seek out fat, sugar and salt because they are in short supply in another everywhere. Now you if you eat them every time, you see him your stuff right there everywhere. Man, I mean everything, you eat is fat sugar and saw exactly and then the other, and it's not just what you eat. We also also, if there's a novel purpose person, the opposite sex who comes along what a rare event that way are fat sugar. Exactly you should jump on that train right, because that would give you a new genetic opportunities, but you look out the door there's novelty everywhere. It's super hard. It's hard stay married in the city than it is in the country. It's hard to stay married your celebrity than if you're nobody, because those roads that novelty constantly there it constantly and the rest of us well, you know there may be variety out there, but they're not interested in me, so it's kind of a role in any Bryant bill. Thank you. So much totally my this can't wait to read your book Lexington Upper for everybody. It's available right now This is socially deep. Go get it! You fox
awesome! Thank you so much. Thank you really find a lot of fun. Thank you, bye, ready! Thank you. Everyone for into the podcast and thank you to our sponsors. Thank you to simply safe. You mother. You can order two day get twenty five percent off any new simplisafe system, and it's only for the ninety nine a month for around the clock, professional monitoring from an awesome system, Cnet, PC, mag and wire cutter all say simply save is the best security system. There is, check your home today and get a great deal on home security, go to simply save dot com, Slash Rogan and save twenty five percent off your simplisafe system. Make sure you use that? U R, L so they know we sent you and hurry, because this deal ends November, the twenty six you do not want to miss it. That is,
please save dot com, Slash Rogan S! I am p L. I s a f e simplisafe dot com, Slash Rogan, simply said data also brought to you by zip recruiter, zip recruiter. The fuckin smart way to find someone to fill a job? That's why Ziprecruiter is rated number one by employees in the US, and this rating comes from hiring sites on Trustpilot, with over what thousand reviews and right now, listeners this podcast- can try recruiter for free. At this exclusive web, address ziprecruiter dot com, Slash Rogan, you can post your job two over one hundred job sites with just one click. Why you fucking
around when you could try it for free, he ziprecruiter dot com, Slash, Rogan, Ziprecruiter, DOT, com Logan, Zip recruiter the Sp Martis way to hire yeah, and I mean it's free. You could try it for free they're, not fucking around, while you why you waste your time by why waste your time and we're also brought to you by the cash out on cash app the number one finance app in the app store and get yourself a cash card while you're at it download the cash app now and get your cash card for free visit, the app store or the Google play market. Now, of course, when you download the cash app enter the referral code, Joke Brogan, all one word: you receive five dollars and a cash apple send five dollars to our good
friend, Justin, runs fight for the forgotten charity alright's. We did much! Love to you all. Take care, see you soon, bye, bye,
Transcript generated on 2019-10-13.