The Joe Rogan experience, funny story about your address, but it but ' it would be. It would be funny for you will talk later about that. You and I we share african ancestry, yeah yeah. I was shocked. I'm one point: six percent Yeah see I have more. I have more credentials in that department here, two percent right yeah. I know, and it's funny 'cause. You know to have your the story in your family,

kind of like where you came from everything mates and I always knew I was twenty five percent italian, and I knew that my family came from Sicily in fact, uh the Rannell's that came from Sicily all seem to become kind of a stab Liszt in in the produce world uh. My dad was brought up in the south side of Chicago I'm forty four years old. Ok, so think about that. For minute, my dad was brought in Southside Chicago and he was raised by his grand father, who is sicilian and come from Sicily. His grand father delivered produce with a horse.

In cart, WO in Chicago so to have lived through that like to be brought up in a house where a guy like leaves in the morning and a horse and cart to deliver, produce an end to be alive like to fight in world war, two to be through the atomic era, the advent of the internet right, but I always knew that we had caecilians. When I did the the genetic test want some of those at some point in time. One of those Sicilians must've, shot southward and across the Mediterranean and look how to hook up down there or something well, that was the history of Sicily in the first place, yeah that Sicily, just being Sicilian in the first place, there's so many people that were impregnated by the moors and by various people

S Africa, North Africa, yeah yeah this for any yeah. I should have probably like always a soon but it just I hadn't thought about it. Another thing I was reading this stuff you might know more about it than I do. Is that when you do those tasks, there's missing parts. You know it it like it captures what's there, but there could be a lot of there. That's not captured just in the way that Chrome is homes, are you know, inherited and passed down like it's an incomplete picture right there could be influences that there could be in your in it doesn't create a full picture of your lineage? There could be lineages that are there that aren't represented in your particular makeup. How so like? What do you mean? I hate right off the bat get into something that I can't speak about any level of expertise.

I was reading a piece in the piece I was reading had to do is kind of a dissection of like what happened with Elizabeth Warren. What she claimed we've been going off about that on the podcast and I'm like a hundred times more african than that she is native American yeah. Well, that's what I found ten times more whatever, but there's a piece of it was. It was a piece in the times explaining like how to make sense of now that everyone is doing these tasks like how to think about makes sense. These tests, but minor, meaning of it is That you could have a lot of ancestry that just isn't captured in your genetic code in a way that would be detected through the testing mean there could ancestors it for what? Because you're, inheriting half you know, you're handing chromosomes from each parent in in, are you could have, you could be an incomplete picture, you could have ancestors that had come from all that. You know whatever these. These tests bray about the world and do one hundred or some odd regions or zones that there could be people.

From those zones who are in your linneage that are not captured in your personal that are not captured in your genetic code. That's so bizarre! You think it'll be in there. It's just an incomplete measuring tool. Is that what it is or just no actually, not in there. I don't know you have to have a do down here now, I'll, listen! You have to take it out of the understand and it's a secular come off on a bad start here and how much Neander told that it's a less than normal, really less than air, but the number like it said it gives you me right. I can't remember: okay, I can't remember it was less than average and you know in those things like a refined by how many people do you know, but it was less than average, which bum me out but I like it is like a thirteen year

light, no reason girl it. I mean right as shocking, didn't surprise me too much I was. We should have a lot more that float around in me. It's a bizarre heritage. You know the idea that there was a different type of human that bread with homo sapiens and that there's like little bits and pieces of it for around people. Yeah in in people discuss some People discuss other an army there, they were easy, neander tall and enter fall. Everyone knows of Santander phones on the thing just also switch once you realize how you're supposed to do it right, neander tall, but I just can't get comfortable with it. I I go back and forth. There's a lot of words and like that, were I know you're supposed to do it. I can't get comfortable exactly like it makes sound pretentious. Does it's like rolling your ours and certain spanish words, but we have this idea that we had this idea that neanderthals as unsuccessful right right there are these brutish thugs that died out

but they had a six hundred thousand year run yeah in Europe alone six hundred thousand years longer run than Homosapien's have actually existed. Yeah yeah so whatever I don't that we're gonna hit like I don't know we're going to match up and have that run well, will probably have twenty three and me for whatever the puck is after us, and he looks so many back, then fuct a human like one crazy war, monger rapists. Thieving humans died out turns out. He didn't totally die out over with the motions lies and they someone someone. The superior race infiltrated the humans and banged one of them yeah, it's funny to look at that, that understanding of of those that are many of those people an end to have the site to picture in your mind's eye, even though you can't picture it like what was look like

they were hooking up. So one are, you know like Anna comically kind of behaviourally. Modern humans were hooking up with neanderthals. Was it with was how is it perceived by their peers? I bet the people that we think of as people back then like You know, George, the animal Steele is no George Animal Steele's of famous pro wrestler from back in the day and I thought you're gonna say it was a a paleontologist radiologist wrestler, his arrest pro wrestler, very famous guy, who could be a caveman like legitimately, could be a caveman now see if you, you got a good image of them now. This is what I think when I think of people. Now you give me a full body. One. There you go go when I think of people he's hanging on to some homosapiens homosapien.

Things from you know. Two hundred thousand years ago, I think a George, the animal Steele. I think there was something like that so the idea of George Fuckin', a neanderthal chick not that far off I think our ideas like that, like Dan rather would be out there bangin some monkey. Lady, I just I don't think that's the case like look at This is body I mean Jesus fucking Christ, got the area shoulders. I've ever seen in a man do still live. I do not know, I don't believe he is. I hope he's not listen, right now. I don't believe it is he's a legend legend in the world of the program. So it's going to take more notice to hurt his feelings. I don't give a fuck yeah he's a legend but when I was in a kid in high school. Well, he's he's old, fart yeah he's a pro! Well, those guys they all

that's a hard way to make a living member died at age. Seventy nine I had a good run, yeah, that's a good run for those guys, that's a fucking hard way to make a living, but we were talked about The the idea of neanderthals is like having a cot, confrontational hunting style. No, I don't think we have, because when when, when it apologies, look at those the skeletal remains of neanderthals. They see this sort of sweet of this pattern of injuries on them an, a researcher is looking at the types of fractures that they have on their bones and where the fractures occur word in the brakes and like cracks in their skulls, he He was looking at all this and wound up working with a doctor who had a lot of exposure to rodeo riders, bull riders and the doctor was was observing

the way in which that sweet of injuries was very familiar to him, from rodeo riders, the types of brakes and the location of breaks. This. Guy. Has this idea that they had a like a very confrontational hunting style but they're like mixing it up big animals in our thing they found is that when you look that skeletal remains from early people you still see that separation in the sexes right that the males would suffer injuries at with a greater prevalence than females, but with the neanderthals it seems like they didn't have. The sort of like simplicity of roles, so maybe the females, the females, have the same prevalence of of these types of injuries and so maybe they didn't have- that the didn't share that, vision of labor

the females as large as the males. I don't know the answer to that, so we know that they had stone tools right. The crude stone tool, yeah, but we don't know whether or not they had anything that could launch them like they didn't have to. They would do we know if they had spears. I don't believe did they found they had Addle Addle and I don't know if they were hafting materials, but they were doing, they were doing art an, and I think, there's a little bit of a debate about they're doing representational art, but they were doing art they were doing. They were probably making jewelry and is that these are all things as as we kind of like wake up to what people really like, and it paints like a more complicated picture. There's even this theory, and I don't know if this held any water, how long it was fashionable four, but It's really long. History of it was extremely long history of hunter. Thousands years a neanderthal, you know I keep in Europe and then it seemed to be I remember someone putting forth this idea that it's-

to be that there was this flourishing of advance it was contemporaneous with the arrival of our own ancestors in Europe, is though they being exposed to work, seeing are seeing jewelry in in mimicking this from these new invaders that were coming in, but I don't where that idea sits right now, I don't know if it's been dispelled, 'cause of other discoveries. He doesn't interesting idea that they would the kind of It is really sad picture right that they would be sort of in autumn. You know distance and here's. These adorned people showing up amazing tool kits and all these abilities and kind of are going to start to catch up. You know I'll be like the country bumpkin we're going to the big city and well in So this idea, I think, up until very recently that neanderthals were not as violent as humans.

As homo sapiens. But now there was an article that was published just a couple of days ago, the new but it shows that neanderthals like Inter neandertal violence between each other. It was just as bad as a Homosapien's yeah and find that evidence of cannibalism, oh yeah. There was a lot of that right, scraping of inside the skulls and indicative of tools. Oh ad blocker got busted. They get us every time with the fucking ad blocker yeah um. What is this humans are just as violent as neanderthals. Are you familiar with the writer Jon Mooallem? No you'd like his stuff, he wrote a really beautiful piece about. He wrote a really beautiful he's about neanderthals not long ago? Okay, I fucked it up. But the thing is that modern humans, or just as prone to violence as neanderthals.

I don't have a problem with that. I think I'm I'm conflating this with something else that I read about. Interwest violence, neanderthal on neandertal violence. This thing is weird about them: is they have bigger brains in us, bigger brains, and they would be like five seven and weigh two hundred pounds, just jacked, just a little gorilla thing. You know it would be great to see it. There is a really dumb theory that was being bounced around a few years ago. It was really hilarious. About how we wiped out. We assume that neanderthals 'cause, you don't have any soft tissue samples. We assume that neanderthals looked similar to humans, but because of the very different shape of their skull, this guy they had instead of giving them european looking white skin turn them into a gorilla, turned him into a aunt musclebound gorilla that preyed on people- and this was like, I believe this guy wasn't actually is actually was a professor

And it seemed almost like a goof at first remember this Jamie. We pulled this up a few times like killer. Neandertal theory thinking called, but he had drawn this thing black, like a gorilla with like giant muscles all over the place and these big crazy eyes and that painting neanderthals as a predator of humans and that's why we wiped him out yeah that my limitations as uh, let's see how well say my limitations as an as an anthropologist? I'm certainly not an anthropologist at all. Just do who's interested in it, but one of my mutations is all here. Theories floated. Ok, and I don't follow him long enough to see which ones have any traction right. How does read a bottom? And- and I don't I don't take it as gospel, but I'll read about it. And I'll be like that's interesting. It was sort of like shape my understanding of it, but then I don't keep track of it like I try to really fall

all the story of like the peopling of the Americas. So when it comes to the human history of the western hemisphere I sort of following- and ideas, will get floated now track the idea to see where it lands in terms of scholarly consensus, but another stuff like with neanderthals, I'm always a sucker for a neanderthal story, but I don't track what ideas that float up are just very quickly denounced as being complete rubbish. It's a weird one. You know it takes time to it, takes time follow this stuff. Go go to that other picture, that's what it is them them and us yeah, but look at some's. Some of his images look that image that he has on the cover of the book. Like those of the idea awesome way better ones, there's some way better images where they drew of full body ones. They had is it in the article? This was a link to this whole website from a different.

Just go to that and then go to images 'cause uh there was some really bizarre, fuqing yeah. There is upper left hand corner This is what this guy yeah. Well, whatever he's got going on at things not make art, you don't think so No he's making me come on yeah yeah, it's pretty preposterous, but near Tustin that things like that. Now did they know? What is a he's? He morphing in the end, it all into a guerrillas that was trying to do here. All that's how I came up here, real Neanderthal, but yeah, but do I kill it's got its snarling with its vegetable eaten teeth anyway, it's it's a and then they, there's the do even know what those dinovi Ians to. How do you say that word, the one from Russia

yeah. They don't have any idea what they look like right now. I don't like some pinky bones and ship that ones, not that one. I don't know I mean you cook book is fucking fantastic. It's really good. Yeah. You put a lot of God Dam work into that thing. He started collecting images for years ago. He could tell it's really good. Couldn't I want to look like what was it or I'm out of stuff to say about him anyway. Go on for days. The problem I real quick, but how many You probably I don't know this, but how many people Wildlife world listen to your show and get angry, I hear about it. 'cause, I'm like a conduit, I'm like account,

show that that's not how it works. I'm like a condo where I'm often times getting frantic text messages as though I would be able to jump in. And you know clarify, but how a pork I think, will work so yeah. It's really how many people here from when I can tell when you're on, I know like when you're on the subject of wild lyrics securing baked. If there's marijuana in the room, we got a real issue, but that's not what handlers are for. He should really know who knows when antlers for other than well there from two things right there for fighting and sexual selection right, yeah, two things that definitely makes sense. Yeah we had like a sexual display, we gotta bowl in Utah this this year and where butchering it, the one of the hindquarters had been punctured by an antler and it got infected and

when we cut into the hind quarter. Teaches this bucket of PA yeah came out, it was nasty with our was pissed at first like someone actually punctured the bladder, and then we realized we got deep into it. This is giant has, and he had been asked like literally right in the flank yeah, and it was just so far nasty you find really high pressure, pus pockets in like in animals. Now over his body in holes holes in his ribs. He had big. In his face, he'd been jacked in the face. I got a Sika deer last year who had losses? I completely gone means like the desirable have been punctured And people are asked me: well, no one, you got him, but I was like no. But I was facing me on his line of

He didn't know where you were just left. Perception is all left I was facing me, but yet with the cookbooks, so we started gathering pictures up for it years ago. Um because I wanted to have this like really complete idea of how to process everything. So, like the book includes everything from how to process a bullfrog. You know to a deer to pig to my he, my ' in a problem. I run anyone, I've done books is, I never wind up. Needing. I never wind up needing like Padam. In the end, I always want to having like very painful cuts. Yeah. You know when I did my book. My book American Buffalo had to lose a hundred pages which is hard to do when we did the complete guide to hunting butchering cooking wild game. It came out at seven hundred pages,

Do you ever think of going back and putting those one hundred pages back into it? I think it made sense to remove no in hindsight it had to happen. It had to happen. That's in terms like the narrative stuff, I've written. That's the you know the end of the narrative non fiction, I've written that's my favorite thing that I've done and it had to have those painful, and we did that when I do those guide. The guidebook series came in seven hundred pages of my publishers. My publisher was like you just don't really make seven hundred page books, and so that's why I want to volume one and volume to 'cause. I didn't want to get rid of any, but then in doing this, this cookbook the mediator fishing game cookbooks, what it's called and putting together, I think early on. We started to get a little bit running a little bit. Wild about was going to fit, but then caught it earlier, but that was the first thing we did was started collecting the pictures, because I think a lot of times you look at a book and it best book and it kind of smells like a photo shoot.

You yeah, you can tell they get they sort of they got the images and I didn't want to feel like that. I wanted to sort of feel really representative of like so many different places and different Experi this is that are captured in here, and so we started. Filming rasta shots of how to walk stuff through like everything you know how to like turn things, how to take an animal to make it into a variety of usable, collecting all those to a long time and then actually like assembling it and putting it together was more systematic once we had that underway. I think it's, I think it's cool. Looking, though you know, know it's great like the book in the end where it's kind of like half, could almost pass as a coffee table book yeah, I know really could I think it's a really valuable resource for people that hunt, because it's just

and is only so many different ways. You can cook backstraps right, there's so many different ways you can put grout venison into spaghetti sauce. You know you're giving people so a wide variety of things to including your original books as well, a wide variety of things to you know to to cook and waste. Coconut, but it's one of the things I really enjoyed about your show. You know and still do, but now that it's on Netflix actually had enjoyed even more, but you do a lot of cooking on your show yeah, that's that's very rare in the the hunting world. You know you see. These hunting shows they're very one dimensional right, you see someone. For the animal and then they finally get it and yeah everybody's happy the end, but you spend a great deal of time, break it down animals and cook a bunch of different things, including like marrow and shanks and unusual. Preparations. I think that's really important yeah, that's something that was

It was always there for me growing up and hunting fishing very complicated, and you doing for a bunch of reasons. I think people in explaining hunting to audiences or explaining to people who are uninitiated uninformed by maybe adversarial toward it. You sort of you grabbing these things that you want to grab in these things that you think will resonate with them right. Uh I have a friend Greg. Blaskovich should even worked on this research piece of taking justifications for hunting and finding. Test subjects who are sceptical of hunting in explaining various justifications to them and seeing which ones are those they find to be most impactful. So She done research around when you take this great, like these broad spectrum of reasons. People do this

You know, and everyone has many of them the part of their story right in you you run by people. He sees these ones that they they really resonate and which ones. Move, the needle in their perception of it, and it's a little bit surprising. There's some there's some surprises in there of ones that you think would be like really impactful, but in fact, or not impactful at all people don't care about like what well population control people don't care people. I think that people, don't the kind of people you're talking who are largely unfamiliar with it, but they're looking at it from the outside and their sceptical love it. They have a hard, they don't buy it. I don't think they're, afraid of deer generally, but people who live in high population areas like I did a gig once in western Massachusetts. Well, yeah it was in Western Massachusetts and I to drive. I was coming from New York and I had to drive through the most deer infested place. I've ever been to in my life. It was,

completely insane like when you're driving on the highway. You have to go two thousand five hundred and thirty miles an hour, and things are just jumping in front of your car, every one thousand five hundred and twenty seconds it was fucking nuts man, and I would I took this side road down to get to wherever the gig was. You know, and I'm just watching these animals jump in front of the car like left and right and like these people that live here. These things are God Dam nuisance like if this absurd everyday reality, and you ask those people, he said hey, what do you say, about deer population control. We need to hunt to keep the population down there, be like fuck yeah. You do yeah, yeah, sure, yeah, I'm sure there are quite- a lot of people who live in some of these areas that have a great abundance of deer that feel that way, but will generally yeah when he was looking at it with just general pop patient thing and it was full stop too. He didn't. He didn't give a lot of. He didn't go in and give case. Scenarios and examples right to is a question that you ask and people it didn't like immediately

another thing that didn't immediately click with people, but it's extremely important to me is issues around heritage and legacy? Ok, so meaning that my maternal grandfather, my paternal grandfather, father were hunters. Father was a hunter. I was brought up hunting to a non hunter, doesn't matter your grandparents parents could have been involved in all kinds of bad shit. I don't think that means you need to continue doing bad ship right. One, it's very obvious. Is people understand people, understand and respect the idea of food, like your John population of looking respect the idea of food now to back up what I was getting at about, you mentioned that being a big element, the show. It almost winds up being that it was like. I was like fortunate. Lucky or whatever that early mycareer. I started focusing on talking about that aspect of it,

but it wasn't something I just made up out of nowhere, because it was a huge part of growing up where For whatever reason I haven't even raised by a dad who was just really interested in cooking stuff and sharing people you know and if he, if you're driving down the road in june- and you see snapping turtle laying eggs on the side of the road. It's come up out of a swamp and you need to find some sandy ground and he finds it on the edge of a dirt road and there it is laying eggs on the side of the dirt road. We were eating that turtle right in everything we ate. You know all kinds of fish and we had a lot of things that people weren't interested in. We could go out and bring back our dad. Bullfrogs would love if we went out and got him frogs. We take our bows out at night. Using flashlights, which unbeknownst to me was the legal and remains illegal in the state rose brought up. Even for frogs use artificial light for frogs, yeah wow. I know I did when I found that out later, no idea, while on the day the one-

Let's do that will do it and would come in and bring 'em, and it was like a big thing right to bring our dad the frog legs and he took it. He would cook and eat anything He would do stuff where we would catch salmon when the salmon run in the rivers in October, and he would have people over we would have a salmon boil, you know, I was raised around that stuff of links of cell. Wild game haven't been very social having it be a way to connect salmon boil yeah boiled fish. So you take your literally. Cubing up salmon and pearl onions and little baby potatoes. Oh so, making like a stew, it's- oil. Then you drain it off and you have drawn butter and you drawl that Shitan drawn butter, it's good sounds good yeah. It doesn't sound familiar fish boils people do fish boils was not normal to do a salmon boil. It seems like it's such a flavorful, She would lose some of that in the broth yeah for sure, but it's like when it's like when you have the pearl onions in a little baby, but a toes

moved up and he drawn all that shit and bought her. It's just like a thing. People want to taste is really good, but it's not necessarily the taste of salmon. It isn't what, if you want to, if you went to the Pacific NW and asked like a bunch of great chefs in the Pacific NW to list there favorite statement, preparations boiling them in a part of water is is going to be on is going to make their list yeah, but he we would do that. You know the thing and invite people over to do it. So I kind of early out, like early on with all the things I enjoyed about. Hunting like the food aspect was big for me and really informed. All of the sort of conversations that I've had around it since and so

and doing a show about hunting, wasn't something that was going to it wasn't something that's going to lean out, but in all fairness, when I was growing up, I did a lot of fur trapping to an trap, Muskrat, Beaver, mink, all kinds of stuff and do not sell them to sell the furs, and I would use up some of the meat. How do you some of the meat for bait I sometimes sell me to dog sled racers. When did you realize the Beaver were delicious not to laugh yeah. I think I know the first one when I was in the first one ever community college? I'd still tell people about the beaver that you cook for us in Wisc how good it is, and they look at you sideways and MIKE I'm telling you man, it was like the most delicious pot roast I've ever had it was fantastic, was real. There's even stories about early on with the one early explorer are in this country. They had a difficult time getting fish, sometimes and Beaver were approved for the lenten meal because they were aquatic

so on Fridays, when you had to have like you, when you're supposed to have your meat free day you allowed to eat. For me because they were water. Animal is very popular food item. You found in ST yeah yeah yeah. No, I get it the first when the first ones we ate I had started reading about I'd, always read narratives stories about the mountain men, meaning like once a mountain like a very specific thing. Like a you know, a rocky, my on Beaver trapper. Who is sandwiched between who is sandwiched in time between the and of the Lewis and Clark Expedition and the collapse of the Beaver market in the 1840s. So, like they're, very like finite period of time, what a mountain man was explaining to people how big the beaver market is 'cause. This is going to blow peoples mind.

Well, America's first, you know: Astor John Jacob Astor, like the beaver market, made America's first millionaires. His fortunes came from being a beaver trader. The richest man in the country, their money came from beavers yeah and he was in on the business end of it. He wasn't in the trap and then of it. He was in on the hat with the fur companies yeah. Big for companies like when we bought think about like this, how big it was for us to do the Louisiana Purchas and by that chunk of land, uh. When Lewis and Clark came out, part of their mandate was to suss out the potential for the trade in Beaver. Hides wow It really bind some night, Ronald Oil and gas right. You know it can be, justify this, the oil and gas they're looking to justify it through trade in Beaver hides now. Also also language about that they might find out about whether woolly ma'am existing out there as well. So there's like some

views about what was going on wow, they really start. The woolly mammoths were still alive. Jefferson was interested in that stuff 'cause. He had. He had into some areas, had some familiarity invented some areas with these large bones and he was puzzled. Bottom he's wondering if this wasn't some, if it may be in fact, was not an extinct species but was somehow live in the American W still How hard is it to historians, like people, not historians popular? Historians really love to make a big deal out of is so weird, but was like hey, let's by the let's, do the Louisiana purchase transaction because of the possibility of locating mammoths. I think it was like an idea that was floated around people see getting the people such as me. See it perhaps overemphasize what it meant, but there's an idea that was out there. The beaver trade stuff was certainly a big factor another thing I about recently. That is that point out to your. That you might think is interesting. Is that

people. Have this idea of Lewis and Clark going into this unspoiled uncontacted landscape I was recently in the peace by his story, is not about at the time Lewis and Clark headed out into the great plains. There were native Americans living on the great plains, who had been to Europe and met the king of France and returned back to the great plains wow? What year They they won out in the early eighteen, hundreds so they're out in eighteen. Oh four wow! You! You got it if you manage in the time from the time in the fifteen hundreds when the spanish right poking around income at Coronado Right coming up from Mexico into the great plains, Cabeza De Vaca being shipwrecked wrong.

Gulf Coast Course and people pushing up into these areas there's hundreds years prior, like the distance that separates. Imagine the distance that separated Lewis and Clark from the first Europeans who were. Doing activities in and around the great plains is like the distance, and time separates us from Lewis and Clark. More so right, yeah, it's the distance in time separates us from the declaration of independence. It was like a History repeats crazy, however, so yeah, but think about too, like losing Clark born people who had horses right right and the first amendment yes horsemen traded up. So that is this. The good side note this idea of eating beef, or so I got read about the Mount man I got interesting. Is that because it's always do like anytime, you read about Mount many rising to find the part where the author talks about how much mountain men like Beaver Tail and the first people to

riding beer around one I was. I was in community college at the time and my brother, a member stuck a beaver tail in the oven for awhile, while and cook that neighbor back to me that, like whatever it is they're talking about uh, isn't that hi, there must be some other explanation: we beaver tail yeah yeah, we ate it and Wisconsin. Now we have a right, there's a there's, a how to the the like pictures and an explanation of how to prepare how to actually prepare Beavertail mountain man style in the meter fishing game cookbook? I was in bad. It was also bland, which is fat. It's yeah, so after that, we started thinking that when they say the mountain like beavertail, we thought most men they like Trump. I behind corners. So we started when we when I would catch beavers. I would be careful when skin is not get the caster. The beers have two large glands on the out of their legs, they're, like talked in there, looks like

baby runs rounds back tuck on either side of its of its like was a male. Talk to your side of its peanuts or either side of its cloaca you, ca, not cloaca black van. You see these glands that are the size of now. If you make. Like. If you take your index finger in your thumb and make a circle is like a and on each side called the caster gland. There's oil gland in their these to use it for perfume. It still has value. Today it's used for a wide variety of things. It smells beautiful if you're walking on a stream bank and you smell like a strange perfume smell, it's usually Beaver, castor, well, smells great taste like ship taste like you're eating, like you rubbed roses or something all over your food, so start figuring out like to skin and be very careful not to get the caster on your knife. Forget the cast around your hands. Then we would just take the meat and put in crock pots, with potatoes and onions and stuff

and just cook him down in a crockpot. So you could pick him. It was like rolls beef. So when I start eating that, but I still then later I realized that read all their accounts of how people repaired beavertail and if you take the tail like the scaly astale, and it really should be from a fall beaver 'cause. It will be twice as thick in the fall and in the spring, their emaciated in the spring, take the tail to skewer on a stick and put it next to a fire where the skin starts to bubble and boil away you just peel it skin away and was hiding under there is the best equivalent like the best equivalent or point of comparison that I can think of would be to it's like you had a really like imagine: you're going Grass FED steak right, but still has that fatty gristle on it. It's just made up of that gristle.

Like would love you'll trim away from a stake in not eat? That's what's inside that beaver tail, but people eat these. Individuals that are doing this for fat, starved eating such lean meat all the time. I think they loved it because he's like a chunk of fat yeah and they had ready access to 'cause they're catching him to make a living and if you just eating the meat, there's no fat on the meat, and so they would complemented with just eating the beavertail fat an hour. Tell people about and even gave some to like there's like a culinary arts institute, and I gave some chefs that stuff and everyone the eats it. Points out, there is not that it tastes so fantastic, but just like really interesting to try and eat it, the fat from the tail- and it's like you, gotta put yourself in position. You pride in this to wear. If you're special, you're out hunting and eating like freeze dried food or not eating great and you're, just exert

yourself all day, all the time. How your does what you want to eat changes a lot yeah and yet the level of appetite you have is off the charts, yeah and so just like to like a big slab of fat, be very said, was arguing to be yeah yeah, your your body starts craving things to absolutely needs. Yeah that makes sense, makes sense a member in particular. We think about these people that that are hiking across the west traveling massive amounts of distance- and you know probably very physically strenuous yelp dragon all that with them, and they get a cross. Some big piece fat from a tail. It's probably a huge treat yeah and then our understanding of people like we used to have this idea of of early native Americans is like there like just eating nothing but mammoth meat, and all time, like standing people grow. You see like how much they utilizing plant resources and probably had like pretty plant rich diets, but with the the one with you.

In bison hunters on the great plains. Those guys were like they weren't cultivating like at the air. Like especially the error when Lewis and Clark came in these people, were not cultivating crops. A lot of who had been farming along the Mississippi Missouri Valleys once they got horses, they just gave up on that ship. And just started roaming, the landscape eating meat and the mouse. Men, certainly weren't doing that, and then eating like you're eating meat. Three hundred- and five days out of the year, and you see They really probably go for a lot of nutrient deficiencies. H, shovels, organs, your hi the putting the on your food gallbladder, squeezing taking the the yeah, putting squeezing the bio from gallbladder on your food. You did that once yeah, it's horrific.

Yeah. We put a nine volt battery on your tongue and you think they were doing just because they were just nutrient, starved yeah. It seems like there there's they. They put a high emphasis on eating, just like all these, like just organ meats, born or milk, from milk from mammary glands, really thank Can't you see that lean as game me every day right, you were talking to a guy from Alaska. What's that guy's name Box, MOD Buck, Boden yeah on your show and he he was talking about you know. Essentially he was subsistence, hunting it in certain stages, and you know he ate nothing but moose yeah like he ate, shot a moose and ate nothing, but that moves for months and picking Wolverine, yet off the schools and so yeah whoa yeah. You know- and you you know so funk in modern day human who's alive right now talking about the surviving on the leanest of lean meat. You like I had to be skinny as when I

That was all over again. I mess that guy yeah, he lived. A life now good life. That seems like he had parts of his life that seem like he was one hundred years. Yeah could have occured one hundred years earlier. He, the the episode. The podcasts is like your good man, Bach, as always call your cool dude, but cool dude back, which is what the book body mind says to him in the in the cellar he's a cool dude. It's it's a a treat to get a chance to talk to a guy that you think probably never even heard of a podcast and certainly comes from a completely era yeah. The reason he was living had to live off. The land is an interesting story where he was working he was just getting in the guiding world so guiding moose hunters and they were wine. Find some ways to be able to hunt some very remote areas in the hidden. That's the idea that they would just bring horses in, because if you don't have landing strips and stuff, it's really hard to operate very so they thought. Well, we get horses in there will have been there. Will hunt for the season the more ride, the horses out,

but getting the horses in there was so difficult and took far longer in the route they wanted to use was impassable by the they got the horses in and they realize that they're never going to get these horses back out of here and there realize that someone needs to stay over winter to take care of the horses and he just volunteered do it. So he spending. They would go in and hunt in September and then you could start hanging out and just stay there to agree to care for the horses until spring That's how he found himself living out by himself bring some food in but be never enough and he would be eating. You know more Beaver Moose, whatever come up come up with, but he was just he was just open to it. Didn't care, you know is really comfortable, with solitude, when I spend time with him, he's very gracious but

when you spend time, you see him just engage in conversation, but you see or a sort of weariness kick in the sun is very comfortable going months, without human interaction right? So him talking to people like? Ok, that's enough yeah get the fuck you realize like when I've stated places out he's, got remote cabin stone. When I stayed you kind of like well sort of drift, often vanish for good all the time. You know sure. Even when he's even when he's like entertaining you know- and he sells bowls like wooden bowls for living, one of the things he does does have one I have one in my home now to get one of those bullets. Birch yeah, it's like a you know: it's a salad bowl or like a growth on the side of a birch tree. You cut off with a chainsaw hollow out. Yeah the you know: Birch Barker Burl bowls

yeah yeah. I have a beautiful one and he sells and they go into tourist shops. I think it's a shame that they're going to terra shops yeah, I think he should be. It should be all be direct consumer well from Mon shook it up. Can I zero people on the case? Get some you meet mediator, folks, yeah, he had a great many, the lost in fire too yeah There was a sad story of a side. Yes, so he's still guides and does that and and then makes is, you know, take cells girls, and makes bowls out of am just talking to a guy like that. Listening to you talk to a guy like that is so fascinating 'cause, he lives a life that I can barely comprehend it just everything about it from an just to think that what he does is almost impossible to comprehend. Now think about Lewis and Clark. Making their way across the country and not really knowing what was out there. Yeah, really not knowing like passing having some people gave some reports. This is what

here is what we saw. There didn't even have a good account of all the different animals no and they they had wanderlust and that's the rooftop on this point. Their days were talking about what people now who was like? Oh he's, a real mountain man, you know and often times when people do that they imagine this like old, hermit yeah, you know who's like living in his cabin and him being a mountain man but if you, the mountain men, were they were for the time the most well traveled people right and the least xenophobic people alive. The equivalent today to be a mountain man today, the equivalent would be the I think you'd have to go to Brazil and ascend the Amazon in Follow tributary after tributary and get into like the Borderlands Venezuela and then go

in an despite the language barrier. You'd have to go in an travel amongst and live amongst people who tribes, who had not had a lot of outside contact, but had a familiarity had a from be ready with outside peoples, and you would live there. Foods you eat their foods and live with them and take their ways that they dress themselves and adopted as your own, the kind of guy that would do that is not the kind of guy we're talking about. Nowadays, when we talk about he's a real mountain man right, we're talking about reality, show people that people talk about now, but these people were. Like insatiably curious explorers. There are the people now yeah the people that do like go to really crazy war zones, I decide to go back pack up in the Hindu, Kush and Afghanistan, you know,

just see what happens: um yeah very different kinds of people, your episodes that you did what Where was that in with the the most since series, where your bow fishing these people, yeah in Guyana, yeah yeah, that's a that's gotta, be a trip. How long will you down there for I'll. Let you know long weeks couple weeks, yeah yeah yeah, There's a lot of travelers lot like stuff needs to happen to get out on the river. When you around these people and they were all walking around barefoot and they're making cassava, which we talked about the other day that it could easily kill you if you do it wrong, the water has all the cyanide in it like you're you're about as close as you can get to that kind of environment right, yeah what you yeah in a situation like that here with people who are

very familiar with like what are you familiar with the modern world learned a great awareness of it but like when the when rubber meets the road of daily existence. There still really connected to life patterns in skill sets that were that their grandparents used and it still fishing like a very similar ways right so Where you might have had, when you were a boy leaving, someone now is in her 30s there're boy, they probably use a twelve pound hand made wooden paddle and maybe now they have a different path. Maybe somehow they've come into. You know a plastic paddle say and they use that boat, or they have a. They still have a dugout canoe, but they also have an aluminum boat. So it is major difference but just the general sort of approach in the fact that you're driving all of your protein from the river and that you hunt and fish two hundred and

the three hundred days a year in the places where your ancestors lies done it you still you still getting this like really beautiful glimpse at how people lived Even though they've had enormous changes in their own lifetime in a very much modern. You know very modern, but you still like glimpse it more. You don't. I don't think you really get that as much. You don't get as much here you know hunting is. It is ancestral right that this kind of continuation that goes on, but when you. Opinions came here when Europeans came to the new world they weren't coming in as hunters by if you go. Look like Daniel Boone's family, Damn Bruins family came from England, they didn't come here as hunters because you couldn't like the peasantry you couldn't hunt there. They came here and learned hunting. So hunting in America for Euro Americans

hunting in America is like an invention. It's a thing that people kind of got, learn and took from the Indians, so it doesn't have. It doesn't have that, like that deep, deep thread, the fine with indigenous communities where there's this continuation is gone on for forever broken, but on this continent unbroken for whatever one thousand five hundred and sixteen whatever the fashionable number is thousands of years right. So it's like are. Understanding is different because are like my answer. Just came here and got into it it wasn't. It wasn't uh continuation for them any. When When you look at like for food and Wild name an interesting thing is my uh. My use. An understanding of wild game is really influenced by like contemporary food right, like like restaurant food,

the chef to do like how do you take while gaming do these at cool, exciting, modern, innovative kinds of things with with wild game and cook it? Your talk to like a do even to do like Boker, particularly people in and you know people in South America have haunted for more of a like a subsistence litter, subsistence purposes. Their whole attitude is different about it. People like people in South America will eat the like the Germany or the mcu. She is like they'll eat the same thing every day for lunch every day, boiled fish. Dried pepper on it, and then a grain made from cassava boiled as well, which is a grain but like a dish made from cassava, why they boiling it. Why don't they just grill it they sometimes do, but for lunch, it's like you, take

leftover. You might you probably like smoke, but they would call barbecue fish or you make a big rack. You have a fire and make a big rack high above it kicks off a bunch of smoke. You split fish, salt and the lamb on that rack and smoke 'em dry him out, and then you take that fish and break it apart and poor river water, over cassava, uhm and then put missionary with river water and stir it up or you just take fish and throw it in a pot and boil it and put that on there, but to eat that same thing every day and then you come and talk about. There's no recipe right! There's no, like In preparation right and then you come and talk about like wild game cook, as I understand it, where you make a book and it's got one hundred different recipes in it and all these ways to approach stuff. It's just like it's very particular to us, like other people, aren't really perceiving it that way they don't use wild game in recipes. They have like there's like here's, how you cook this an we don't really deviate.

Cooking, this way where it's like fish on a rack over to fire or fish in the pot of water and very limited diet. Does it weird you out when you're around people like that, because you have options right, you can. You can eat. Anyway, you like go to restaurant. You get a burger from fast food now choose to go hunting with these people. It's literally how they survive there's no option, there's no options and they've been doing it that way forever, because I do feel like a weird recreational. Person around them like it is it does. It's feel strange. That's a great question! Man! No there's! Definitely there's definitely can an envious part to how like to live. That deliberately like I'm, I'm low envious of it, but really the thing that I feel most, I feel

more than separated. I tend to feel more of the areas in which I'd be like aligned. You know right where, like appreciate the perspective, and I appreciate the skills that, but never feeling yeah, never feeling like like bashful are ashamed or something that this would be something that I would choose to engage in, and this is something they were engaged in, and I think that one of the things that helps make it that way is how much they love to do it right that when you go out like the factions the excitement of heading out in the morning, the fact that they still feel it like. There is giddy as anybody about going.

I'm doing it like very excited to go out and do it is not like going out to get your like to get you to check your mailbox. My youngest daughter is become enamored with fishing, and I love it. 'cause I get to whenever we go on trips, I take her fishy fuckin' loves at man, and we were in Florida we're going to get to bass fish, and I set it up how the guy was going to take us out. I woke her up five hundred o'clock in the. In the hotel I'm carrying her she's stiff as a board. She just woke up she's like I'm so excited she was Alex said she wasn't like daddy, I'm tired! Can we just go back to bed and it was dark out five in the morning she just called I'm sure so excited that you want to have one shot at six pound bass. Alright, then she's hooked and she got quite a few bass. It was a great Lake Indiana in Florida Florida. Obviously, a lot of great bass fishing there, but we caught a ton of Largemouth Bass and she caught a fat boy was like a six pound or she's a freak in Hibbett her finger. She was showing everybody looking.

My finger. She was so excited. She fucking loves fishing, but that feeling in the morning, when you Looking at her little face and like we're on the water like it's a genetic thing, it seems like it's just in the DNA yeah the fishing, it's not like, hey we're going to go play soccer which she likes to, but does not that kind of excitement now there's a like, oh going to be so fun. There's like it's triggering something that is, it's deep inside human beings. I see it, and I see it in, but I see it in varying degrees and in different people, like some kids seem to out of the box with more of it yeah. You know yeah my only that as a euphemism, no, it might might end My ten year old daughter doesn't she's like yeah. We can go fish like she's gone fishing because caught that's it's that's! Okay! When I want we had a daughter

My wife was adamant. You know early on, so she found out is gonna, be a daughter like that you will not exclude our daughter in this world that you're in. I think, of course not. You know, and I and I don't but uh. Having in my mind, I don't feel like I've messed this up. I think I put the same emphasis right on my. I have three kids, but my older two little ones a little bit too little. That's really know what's going on, but the older I feel, like I put the same emphasis on it. And my daughter just isn't demonstrating the same enthusiasm that her older brother does and you try to suss out, like the nature, nurture question 'cause I feel. I'm doing the same inputs right, but I'm getting different results

It leads you to wonder. You know it's very small sample size. When I talk to other parents like can you know parents you parenting right now, young kids, I just keep encountering other dads, who are have I mean the same experience, and it really leaves you to wander sort of like what sort of like cultural influences are going on there, where it's like the enthusiasms, often times. Among young girls are not as high as you do, the as long it's on petrol. I don't know it's hard to unpack everything. Yeah! That's that's my! questions like it. I don't sage how old your kids well, the two on talking about eight hundred and five, I mean. I don't know how much culture plays a part. I know. I really think that it's an obviously in my small sample group, an eight year old and a ten year old for the youngest kids, the Eight year old Fuckin' loves it there, both girls, the ten year old, whatever. If I,

wake her up, take her fish and should be like leave me alone. I'm going back to sleep, I'm sure there are parents out there, who you know I've I meant maybe they're out there, where they have like a boy and a girl minerals into a fired up the boys, not maybe I have to you, I guarantee it's there's. Jamie- and I were just talking about this yesterday 'cause I was watching this video of these there's. I want to try to put this in a respectful way, um I think there in I'm sure you're aware of this there's people that are in the hunting world outdoor industry that I think are in it, because it's a good ave to get attention if you're like a hot chick yeah you're a hot check and you wear paying. Can you go out and shoot things you take all these grip and grins with deer like this is going to get a lot of likes. Because it sounded like a managing the male perspective on it, yeah

Here's the woman who has everything exactly an she likes to hunt yeah, she's, hot and she likes to hunt and there's quite a few of them. And it's I was telling Jamie. It's a weird world because part of me, I don't want to be a I don't want to look at these girls and me I don't. I don't look at a guy who hunts and who, wants to be a part of the outdoor industry and go all this guy is just doing this because things. This is his avenue for fame and success. I think well, here's guy who really likes to hunt, and he realizes There'S- like Steve, Rinella and John Dudley out there, these famous there's mean. I want to be a famous hunter. How do I do it? You know how Well, I'm to just start taking instagram pictures and say a lot of the same ship that they say and sort of you know put myself the cultural norm, I I don't think like that with girls if you like you just wanna. Have men were not all of them? A lot of it might take a super legit, a lot of research but there's on Quesh Really. This added element in

that world and it with it be super generous and say it's only ten percent of 'em, but that ten percent My home, I smell a rat, I'm not unaware of what you're talking about I'm sure you're not, and I notice that it's yeah even had like a yeah. I remember it was yeah. It is kind of like a like a like a like a sex pot, Kind of yeah Contra Senia yeah Super made up full war paint fake. Eyelashes hot as fuc skin, tight clothes Out there shooting schitt pictures yeah, it's and then you go to their instagram page, and it's like there's pictures that and then there's a lot of pictures with their but up in the air, with a doing some strange exercise get rid of both season yeah accentuating there. But I guess that's weird: I don't Do those exercises. I would really like to know I would really like to, continue. Leaning on my

Under continued cleaning out my daughter 'cause, I would really like her. I'm going to keep leaning on until I feel like she's in the at age, or she can legitimately say she doesn't want to go right, 'cause right now. If I ask her every day you want to go to school, she'd be having a real delinquency problem. Oh you, like you know you really like yeah, you make kids do stuff. I took her duck on a couple weekends ago. It was cold morning. And we get out there before it's even legal light she's like felt terrible she's laying there crying about how colder feet are. If my boy was doing that, I would have a very different attitude about it Alright, then, when she's, crying Kirk Rank and she's cold, like maybe feel awful right with my boy, English, suck it up, but here I'm like oh man, yeah she's, all cold, now yeah, and then it makes it

so you really there. There really is a difference. Yeah, there's that there's a there's a difference there and it's not. You know no other people by hunting license in this country. Ninety percent of you about hunting. You know ninety percent are males right right so when one hundred and ten license holders is a woman, but then there's more women than men in the you know slightly more women and men in the country and there's a ton of ways. Explain we talked about earlier with neanderthals or maybe intervals didn't have these like divided roles, but in all the hunter like in Hunter. Gatherer cultures is very normal, to see a division of labor here and to have like men were out hunting and women were not a bunch of explanations, for people are tied to being home to care for small children and no couldn't afford that risk to stop the very there. Are there some women that go out with the hunting parties? You know if it is,

You know the minute. You say no. Some is going to point out to some right variation, but in your experience, you've done several these trips to these remote jungles all, yeah? But that's just that's such a small thing. I mean you get a rather looking at experience just like from exploring literature reading about. You know historic accounts. More people found what people do. It is very much. The norm is very much the norm. The morning was the all patrilineal descent activity and the all these cultures you go to, like the cult of the hunter, is like a male sort of cool, but the factors that made it that way. Okay, that sort of the you you have to soon become some some kind of practical factor right. The fact is that

That way. Aren't there anymore um and I said the difficult thing to unpack if it winds up being that, if I have two boys and one girl for winds up being that uh, both boys become avid hunters and fishermen and somehow my daughter does not I'll, probably view it as something bit of a personal failure that I'll never know what really was going on. Like I said it's hard like unloaded, I wish I could have one hundred children like fifty girls and fifteen boys and have a bigger sample size. But you know I do wonder about it in what twenty two is there's no like at our home in our kids are kids eat tons of wild game at our home to the point where they don't have any. You could give them anything to eat, they would eat it and it would not register to them. Is unusual. They've eaten everything right, they've, even even like breakfast,

sausage made out of Fox and Beaver meat. They've eaten Fox yeah they've, eaten everything. Wait a minute. Yeah you eat fox! I have I made a batch of breakfast sausage 'cause. I had a box one time and I made breakfast sausage out of it. What was that, like? I just got a new of Beaver meat deer meat in a little bit of pork fat, my kids Aiden everyone went. This is huge, try any the fox on its own. No then try the fox on its own. I a ton of things. But I haven't. I didn't just straight old: possessed you to stuff that fox into that sausage, I heard that they were good And I had an Arctic Fox and I wanted to get a thing made for my wife from it, so I had a hat to Arctic Fox had made for and I retained the meat and then we just ate them breakfast sausage and, like I told him to ask It is- and I say it's you know this this and this it wouldn't freak him out it. Wouldn't it wouldn't even know it. Wouldn't. Register as like a thing that might seem

unusual to some people right, so the squirrel, rabbit all manner stuff right, the just anything and so I know, there's no element of there's no influence like that with them. There's no influence up. That's grosser right you that's weird. You know they were hunting their day. We went out and we are hunting ST pigeons. You know and they'll be sing me. Where are you doing this in Montana? Oh, ok, yeah, there's like a guy had a grain silo that was like in festival pigeons. Folks, don't know that many people listening to this. That pigeons were actually brought over. Here is food and when you get like fancy squab on the menu, that's what a pigeon it's flightless, pigeon pidgeon hasn't flown. Yet that's what squab is so smaller and younger yeah the pinkish on the I get squab and we used to go out and catch Squabs where we are low.

I'd like a little almost like the equivalent of the trap line where they would your nest in various places around town, and we just know all the places to go check to get swabs. And yes, one has a flown. Yet so, but people that commercially produced squab, you can just keep them from flying. But if you want squad from the wild, you need to go out and you just go and collect them, and what's the difference between pigeon squab in terms of the way it tastes, pigeon meat is tougher grayer has more livery quality and squab is like very tender pinkish like It's like lean. It's not like quail it's leaning way more in the direction of quail, like it, black of a pigeon and a quail had a baby squabs more like that. It's

one of the biggest surprises I had in without one of the biggest surprise, is that I've ever had in any game. What if we can combat as while game, would be what squab tasted like because I had been eating? I had for a long time, even street pigeons. Those three pages of you know, they're around even of the Missouri Breaks yet street pens that nest up enough in the cliffs- and you know you can you there's many places you can hunt street pigeons, they become agricultural past and they're, not regulated, so there's no close season. No bag limit right, they're treated like they. They have no more the regular like rats. If, if you could talk a wildlife managers and asked if they could wave a magic wanna make street pigeons go a most, everybody would waive it because they're so costly, the coffee to cities across it. Agriculture,

onsite always eaten pigeons, but the the minute of discovering like discovering like what a squabbles light which is well known to people in the you know, fine dining, but I had never had it the shocking how good it is. That's interesting, I've never a picked it off the menu, but now I'm tent. Yeah. You should do it, but ST pigeon should avoid that. Now I would eat some first just to test. It may make patties from it. Ok, but it's not something that you would go. This is one of my favorite things to eat. No is there a way to do it where you could really like? Is there a preparation? Maybe that you've missed it's not bad to to put it in a marinade, and you can grill it what you want to take the little brass and you poke it whole bunch like poke it with a fork.

And tenderize a little bit and also make some like avenues of approach for the marinade and grill 'em over very hot flame. But what was good as like to use it like similar to like stuff with harm again or whatever, to make patties green's time again is something that you would cook that way as well. I've only seen people do tar on that was that called life below zero. So lady who lives she's, been on the show before she lives like fucking what she live like two hundred miles above the arctic circle. Something crazy like that. And she hunts ptarmigan down up there, the best time we're I've ever eaten, and this is we This is in in our new cookbook too, but

I I mention using ptarmigan for, but it's just the addition it's great for regular, like any any kind of mean, particularly gamebirds. Let you have it. You've got hot pot. Mmhm yeah, were you like? We were you have the you know you have like the simmering broth and you have all these raw like Ross. Slice meets you dip in there. The best harry I've ever had is like that. It's it's other worldly. You know it's it's kind of, like kind of like when you slice it thin and cooked. That way. I just kind of vanished is on your tongue. It's a very, very tender meat. You can almost kind of mash it up people. Like a thing you here with a lot of game birds, people described harm again, treat ST pigeon lot of game birds, people describe as livery diving ducks being livery 'cause, there's like a texture thing to it and then less strength of flavor in a darkness of color and those people.

Make a lot of pat days live right, so those birds that have that quality often times it is for the they can find their way into patties. So we also have recipes for that like how to do patties from using all all manner of me. Do you have any recipes in the book for brown? Bear no, but we have bear recipes. Is there a difference? You know brown black bear. Among people who know black bears, are widely accepted as being good to eat. If you go into if you go to the earlier mention Daniel Boone. So if you go into that, like the the the the the the frontier era of american history right, which preceded disease, the lingo terms the frontier, your of american history preceded the mountain man era of american history, with like the the eastern settlements. Right, if you read it like

about Daniel Boone's area? You know early seventeen hundreds up into the open the revolutionary war bear me was the most popular me on the front here. Black bears the most popular is in preferred yeah preferred over venison. Really now people hunted deer to sell deer hides nobody. To dear me, people on a bears that that's what they like to eat. Ham at slate's is more beef, like you know, right in, but you know when Cook, right, people love bear meat, a brown bears, Grizzly bears just don't enjoy the same reputation different diets. Then you run in with Brown like when we use it. We use the term brown like Brown bears kind of almost like a like a it used, amongst hunters a lot, but it is It's all one species, soul, the you got a grizzly. Where in Wyoming brown RON Kodiak, its taxonomically is regarded as a single species,

call Brown Bear Brown Bear is a grizzly, you get all kinds of people right, and you just say about various points of this, but like debating various aspects of this, a brown bear is grizzly, with access to marine resources, where marine resources make up a major component of its diet and then the question you bring then like, if you go to the n slope. So if you go to the arctic coast- and you saw- Grizzly there you like what he has the marine resources he could eat a beached whale whatever, but he's a grizzly. So Brown bears kind of extend right from you know, northern BC up around in in in hook around into the Bering Sea, but at some point they're, just not brown birds in more in there. He they tend to be big, then and oftentimes, because the name like that tend to have like a darker coloration. They have a horrible mutation is food. You always find people who are pointed out right or nowadays

Because people are so aware, like in the social media world, nowadays So how people or kill a brown bear- and here you are You'Ve- got four or five hundred pounds of meat and they'll talk about how gonna eat it, but I do you're in for a pound a day, hey this year, really yeah that really what happened! Frills are really what happened. That's true right and then there's no salvage requirement on it. Uh there's requirement, don't you have to in Alaska, don't have to pack it out. It depends some areas that have zero some areas. You know typically. Typically, no, but there are areas that do have salvage requirements. Where I the cabin is a salvage requirement under me in the spring because Sprint in areas where bears that's a black, but yours yeah, your cabin is there's. Brown note that there it's island by island, so you like the ABC Islands like like.

Go to Admiral T, island and Admiralty Island is all brown bears, so it winds up being that if the island is good, brown bear habitat, it will only have brown bears because on the islands where it's smaller they just they kill all the blackberries. They are there in black bears. Aren't there. If the island is not brown bear habitat and can't support brown bears, it will become a black bear island prince of Wales, is a black bear. Island admiralties, a Brown bear island, you know kind of depends on how much seems to maybe depend on how much like open country or alpine, or you know, if it's like densely densely forested, it less suitable and becomes a bob, a black bear territory, but black bears in the spring have a salvage requirement, because if you're talking about coal still bears coastal bears are better to eat in the spring, we're not even tons of rotten salmon in the fall. There wouldn't be a salvage requirement because, when they're eating dead salmon

Their flesh can become not good. I remember you tell me a story about using the guy smoker and the guy and need to clean that that smoker out smells like fish, never cooked fish in there it's 'cause you're smoking a bear in it, and that was that was early June and June blackberry who's not getting salmon, but it stores up that flavor stores up there, fat I've, watched, even wolves eating salmon that we're so rotten that they're, like lapping it up it just turns into a grey mush and the bears and people's idea of a bear is like eating a brand new fresh fish which they love to do, and they seem to prefer it like when there's tons of fresh fish and they're just getting fresh fish they'll does the eggs right, but as the fish run dies down, they just start eating rotten fish we gotta talk about quality food. Oh, we actually works. So even like bones Buck Bowden, who, like I said he, the

send me off of Wolverine Skull to eat it said he struggled his entire life in just hasn't found a way to make brown bears that good. There are exceptions, people run into good tasting ones. The the you like grizzlies up on the north slope of very good reputation. Any black bear in the Rockies any black bears good. I mean I've heard stories that I had a body that killed one over at dead cow. One time he killed, scavenging a rotten cow and he had a hard time with the meat, but generally bears that aren't eaten, eaten marine resources. Pretty are phenomenally good. I talked to my friend Eric Weinstein yesterday he's a mathematician wanna smartest guys. I know- and he is been fascinated by

my obsession with hunting, and so he started watching a bunch of hunting things online, and he said he was very put off. I saw people killing bears with spears. Yeah and celebrating, and the way they were celebrating my stuff he's like the found. The thing the whole thing you know and I saw his point and we had Discussion about it where uhm you know, ig knowledge, ing the need to control the population and that this is all their allocated. Certain amount of tags by wildlife biologists- and this keeps the moose population healthy and the deer population all these different things, and even that people eat all all those things sense to him, but the celebration and the the all the hooting and hollering Stuff is like there was just not enough of a reverence for the dead and it really really disturbed him. Yeah, that's

it's a great subject and it's hard it's hard to approach. 'cause you find some the contradictions and weird parts of it, and by that I mean this, I was in the conversation with the gentleman over dinner and we're talking about, he was explaining me like is the role of a rancher. What is the role of farmer? Here's a person who's bringing animals into life, he's propagating breeding animals with sole intention, the We all die and he will make his living off of their death, but that person remains a sort of cultural. Khan, they enjoy. Like a celebration. You know when you're trying to sell, sell a pickup truck right and tied tie it to a rancher. It makes that pickup truck seem more legitimate

celebrated character. They always an old cowboy yeah cowboy would like that is like what is in in knotted on not knocking to. Let me get where I'm going this, but what is that, like that person. Is based off of like rearing animals in order that they made die and he profits from their death. And remain celebrated and then you get in the idea of what in when it comes to american wildlife, where we have a population. Wildlife, many respects. We have enjoy the management that we do in the abundance that we do in many ways that abundance is supported, bolstered financed by hunters, but hunters- tend to not enjoy that same cultural support, Becaus of the death right. Well, it's also because of media depictions sure

I think that's the big part of it more, even so than the death, if our, if all of our depictions about hunting were tied into this sort of rational discourse, and they showed all the images from your show of animals. Being shot and and carefully butchered in the feet. Build and prepared and cooked enjoyed? I think think would have a way different perception, but we know we have Elmer Fudd We have the evil hunters in the movies that are always. You know trying to torture the animals. I mean it's it's. Disney, an anthropomorphization of these animals and all these different films and media depictions and books that ship and then there's. All these things are like stained in the people's brains of what's good and what's bad. You know very few kids of stuff towels that their pets yeah ill or that their tollways, the of Teddy bear

and maybe Rudolph the Red Nose reindeer. You know once you root offered. No, it seems like it seems that it gets much worse than more contentious the last the populace, if you the population is looking at some of the needs they recognize as game. They feel different right things that they don't recognize this game, they don't readily recognizes game arm to see that death is more abhorrent to them, even if it is being treated as game, but like right, you don't like you don't see social media explosions come up around someone with a turkey right. You don't see social media explosions come up with someone around a white tailed deer people. Look at that. They see this animal that they perceived, very abundant in the case of whitetails and turkeys are correct, very abundant they're, familiar with them there, familiar with the idea of these things being haunted and it feels different now

These things that really is a perceived scarcity. Okay, our and don't immediately recognize it as a food item, it's hard for them extremely, This is way outside of my personally of expertise, but he like what goes on in Africa over people see animals in Africa that have been haunted and they recognize them only from like film depictions cartoon to pick is mobiles or their child's crib, like a like. A hippopotamus is very high. Thank you can't look at that and it's hard to see that, as like the harvest of game to become something very different and it's we've watched it happen with bears you know. Also. I think that will happen is if you initiate the hunting of something that wasn't haunted before that's very difficult for people. So you take a state where, like New Jersey or

were they for a long time historically would have a bear season, they would who's. The bears the bears he's would go away because of a of or scarcity, then later they would cover. The resource in one. A re initiate the hot people have a very difficult time with that be like if it wasn't hunted before. How can it be hunted now right and that trips people up really bad? Were they kick? People have? The art are hard to get on board with all of you watch was going out with, early bears and around what has been, unfortunately named the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem. Where you sort of have this cultural custody battle around who owns this Indiana? his own, the land surrounding Yellowstone, where the big, because of naming people sort of think of it as as Yellowstone when it certainly is not it's a in a large area surrounding it, but there we had a period where we weren't. You know we we stop. Grizzly unexampled of animals are being overharvested habitat

auction and then you go through an enormous amount of work to recover the species and people are extremely resistant to the. That you would start hunting. Now that you would now start hunting something you weren't hunting a few days ago right, that's like, but it's all what you were saying earlier. That is not recognized as a game species 'cause, it's not thought of something you eat. Like mountain lions, like Mountain lions are a nuisance like is a woman that had she had a depredation permit, because a mountain lion had killed like ten alpacas and a goat in her farm in Malibu and she decided not to act on the permit, because there was so many different people that were threatening her. There was so wildlife activists that were threatening her and just general people online death threats, because she, they. You know she's going to hire someone to shoot this mountain lion that had been. I mean it just went thrill, kill and got into one of our pens, just went ham and but

Will they think of that thing is somehow another better than out her alpacas, which is very weird, know. People just in the protest of the killing of tired of a tiger in India. They had killed thirteen people. I saw that I put that online and people in the comments were were like those people are great. Okay, your your mind. What if that was your sister? When was your your daughter who's. Your mom would is your brother, your brother, watch your brother getting dragged away by a giant monster yeah. You know just because it's call the tiger you're cool with that. Like fuckfuck, your brother know you saying that this is an interesting year, I don't mean that. Well, let me finish my thought and I don't want some calisthenics interesting, but Washington State had its first mountain lion, but tell the lower mainland killed yeah for the first time- and he was ninety four years in oregon- is an organ has first in state history, yeah and with the one in Washington kill the person

they tracked the lion down and killed the line and the state fish and Game Department got. You know, predictably, like a bunch of blowback, for being killed, and I was talking to someone who's involved with that and I'll. You know, I think that the blowback would have been a lot worse. Had you not done it yeah, you know, but you just don't you don't hear from those people, but there is, there would be blowback honestly. They didn't kill. The lion of the line is just out there roaming around. I think people would just ignore it. 'cause the new cycle, so fucking quick now I think they would. If we get lost in Trump would say something stupid about North Korea or whatever and people forget. Now I can I continue to you know: I continue to hunt black bears. I eat blackberries, it's like you know, in the case of Mount lines, you have rapidly expanding mountain lion populations, there's a lot of mountain

small minds: re colonizing new territories, all the time, they're managed. You know. Most states manage them very tightly with mortality quotas, female mortality quarters open season close season permit draws right. There manages is a game animal on their they're hunted and there's some allow use of the renewable resource and at the same time, that that's going on we're enjoying expanding populations of mountain lions. I'll I personally Welcome the return of mountain lions to any suitable habitat where there's enough space for them to live without causing you know, undo friction buy them boarding up against human interests, and I encourage people

who are in areas that are being caught recolonize by my own lines. To you know practice some level of tolerance and use best best use practices are best case practices around to like avoid conflict right, saying we bears like. I welcome return. It bears, I think, there's a lot of areas in this country a lot, but there's there, full of areas in this country that could have sustainable populations of is the bears that psych suitable habitat that is not being used by Grizzly bears and couldn't should be used by Grizzly bears. At the same time, I like to see when it's appropriate, I like to see state managed, while they practices and then allowable. List of animals. There's a lot of people. Listening to this that don't even first stand that mountain lions are edible in in fact you say delicious. I like,

I was eating mountain lions long before I ever one hundred mile now I've one hundred and one mountain lion in my life. I've eaten bunch born at so I had never had the question about it. I've never had the question about whether the vast majority of the people. Listening to this right now, probably like what yeah among pounds like Studio lines is widely known as a very good a, but I was introduced to it that to I that there's there's a place when I was Little Missoula MT the place twenty miles e there called Rock Creek Lodge and their famous for having his big thing called the testicle festival in the fall. Where you know, if you castrate steers, you know people will fry up the nuts right, so the Testicle Festival is big. It's kind of like turning like this big head turned into this kind of biker festival

but it was just this big party in those centered around eating deep, fried cow balls, and we used to go down there all the time and go drinking and one time I was at that same place in the spring, and this guy had a pot of public look like pulled pork. You know part with barbecue sauce and had a bunch of buns out, and he just giving it away, and I was eating it an he was telling me how it was mountain lion. Me- and he was saying you Know- is sound like balls in the, Oh I'm posting this Spring Street Mountain land here, and that was the first time I had mountain lion and then later I had a girlfriend who is from Wyoming and, and she one day is standing behind a guy in a she behind the guy in a hardware store, was buying a mountain lion tag and she asked him. What do you do with all that meat and he didn't want it, so she gave her phone number. When he got his line, he gave us the whole. Damn thing so we ate that whole mountain lion, then I came into

mountain lion, meat in other ways and always enjoyed it to the point where well, I wasn't eating it 'cause I had a moral obligation to eat what I killed. I was going out of my way to get it because whether it's someone else's not wind. The buy pork is like pork is that similar to white meat man, while you can take the backstraps with bad on it, you can leave the fat on it and take that back, strap and see you got a cookie good still have the you know, it's probably gonna have trichinosis. You got to cook the one six just like just how pork used to be on cook. It see your it fats, good the meets good. We cook it down, make all kinds of preparations of the cook down. Kids me they keep they'd once wild, they beat a bunch mom. Let me you know well cooked, but the it's one of those things that were not accustomed to, but we're fine with things we are accustomed to. You should a mountain lion dead on social media.

Can't wait to this people would go crazy yeah, but you saw that recent controversy. With that woman shot a goat and vase species on an island off of Scotland, dead animal they have to hunt. They literally have to hunt them if they don't. If you never see what a goat can do to environment they just destroy everything they eat everything they can. They as a Roazhon. They decimate all the local foliage but they weren't seeing that, and I think that they were like the were upset about that were really like struggling to describe why it upset him. Even a politician, a pointed out that the person was wearing camouflage because traditionally in Scotland you help with different clothes and I there was no secret. There's hunting going on out there right secret at all. It was that it's an american that she's wearing camouflage she's adorned. You know like like makeup, and it's kind of like a like a beautiful image set up. She had a high pop

Rifle which they're already using out there anyways. It was just a confusing Idea in a confusing image for people had a band, some old, irish dude with his with his you know, dear outfit on, but there's something people are like. Why her and why here yeah and it so her description of it as a fun hunt. I mean people had a lot of, but it's also, I think, because it's the anything else going on she caught a cycle, she she's got. You know choose headed down the river and a tributary opened up and she went right into controversy. Bank yeah, that's what I think happened and the people that were tweeting about. I saw grand Glenn Greenwald tweet about it and like you're, a journalist like you're, an actual journalist, a respected journalist? You should really do some research on this, because the way you're calling it

I don't know, I mean Glenn, Greek Greenwald is, I believe you some sort of an animal rights activists. I don't know if he's a vegan, I don't know if he's a vegetarian, but I know Ricky Jr Vase. Isn't he I'm a vegetarian he's, not no really. Yes, that's the weird part right, yeah, that. That's funny man that I didn't know that I don't know I had a conversation with them on a radio show about it, he's Yes, we were talking about hunting. And you know, I brought it up- 'cause we're on the radio show together on the Opie and Anthony Show- and I said I shot bears and I eat them. You know. Eat everything I kill and I hunt for food and I prefer to meat that way, and we discussed the fact that he eats meat huh surprise is a weird one. Rain is a there's, a very two signaling aspect of shiting on hunters, where you're always going to get some positive remarks about it. It's difficult for me: it's not difficult.

For me for from someone who doesn't who doesn't eat meat right. I can. I don't have it. I have a problem with it like I'm, like you know, so the best I don't know he said. Maybe they have a point Let's cover some or does he need it? It was a damn so that they're trying to put them to do we condemn hunters who are hunting like uh a regulated resource yeah to condemn them, you're, sort of acting like when you condemn you sort of acting like all. I care about these issues and I want to be out here- and I want to be like articulating a perspective and, and I know what's going on, but then so you putting yourself out as a person who has opinions of value just just like let your opinion be known yeah. So if you're going to have that- Where is the self examination exactly where you are if you're eating meat like you're, contributing all kinds of animal death,

what is your understanding of? What is your understanding of those lives in those deaths? How is that now part of your reckoning. If I do, say, I am happy that I got a bear that I will eat with my fam. Let's say I am happy about it. Is it better for you that you're kind of is it better to be at about it somehow? Is it better to be regretful or just ignore the fact all together? Why is it not okay that I'm happy about right what I eat? I know the store sorry? If it really well, like I understand the history of wildlife in this country I want to say better than anybody, but damn sure better than most uhm. I know where we've been good sense of where we're going in terms of american wildlife. What the challenges are for american wildlife right, I'm in this stuff on a daily basis, I can know all that and I can see my place in it right. I can see, what my actions are and weather

actions are helpful or hurtful for something that I care a great deal about, and if I can know that well and hit a deer, a bear or whatever, and have it be food and find that I'm like really happy to be involved in that that somehow is off putting to people. But it's ok to be It's I'm blind to it. I have this nagging sense of guilt about it that I haven't reckoned with. I, don't really know about it. You know and that's that that's like an acceptable position for some people to have really hard for me with people that are that that contributing to animal death who want to condemn Those who are more willing to, for whatever reason, billing too excited about taking part in the process themselves? I gotta find a way I got to find a way to to to engage with it, though, and I need to get a better understanding of it because the the the debate isn't going away, I can't

brushing it off, is so ridiculous that it doesn't warrant my time because clearly it does warm my time to understand that perspective. I just haven't. Had anybody really give to me in a good way, I have to say like over. They were raised to be eaten. That's a foolish perspective that it does that's dead to me is way way worse. So let condemned I progress. Are you going to go? Live Glenn, Greenwald's, vegan I'd, probably rather talk to someone like Ricky Jr Base about it, because I I I I assume he's articulate about it, he's articulate. I don't think his position is nuanced. I don't I don't. I think, there's some way Shuffle ignorance, that's a part of people that eat meat, but condemn hunting willful in the fact that I said they know that they're going to get a certain reaction out of people when they tweet about it on social media. One thing: if talking about someone out there, shooting things and not eating it? Okay, I get it. I'm with you if some guys are shooting an elephant 'cause. He wants his tusks. I'm on your side. I get it, but.

If someone chooses to hunt an animal fill in the blank that might be a goat might be Do you they they're eating. This thing, but they're shooting this. It's an invasive species, it's actually very delicious. It's very edible prized for its meat by some communities. You don't make any sense. You know doing this because you know that other people are ignorant about it as well in either you're ignorant because you've never bothered. Look into it or you've. Bothered to look into You're, ignoring the Nuans yeah. In the case of the goat thing, this is a ladder thing, there's an added element that our government on the federal level is involved. There's a lot of state wildlife management agencies are involved in trying to do a wild goat eradication projects on islands, yes. This is something that I'm going all the time in Hawaii and many other PS is where we're we're we're like out helicopter gunning, yeah helicopter gunning for in

Ccs explain to people how those goats got there in the first place 'cause. This is also very weird uh anyways? But a lot of things were a lot of io species. This is one way it happens where in this islands would be interred. Used by seafarers wailers, who would want to stab Lish food resource This is a long Trans oceanic routes so that you could put something there and come back and get it later. Early wait like like waiters used to come out of the the the American Northeast, the girls famous whaling village, isn't in New England. You know they would go down and stop in in. Like

stop in the glop Agos whatever and gather up tortoises that they could flip over in the whole of a boat in the tortoise stay alive for months on its back, you'd have like a fresh meat resource and, as people came to understand, scurvy and realizing that fresh meat gives you enough. Vitamin C2 of scurvy, the you can get from dried meat because the you know the the way the vitamin c behaves through the cooking and drying process like fresh meat. You can keep MAVS Kirby me became a are even more important than but people would come in you'd, like cut some sheep, loose cut, some belts loose on island and know that they're going to breed and build up a big population, and that can be like a place. You stop in and get food and other things get introduced in other ways and of course, animals move. You know so you have one island, it has close proximity to another island, they can swim across a bump over and it destroys native vegetation. They trample birds nest, and so you have many cases where introduction

of non natives, particularly of grazing animals. Non native predators will wind up causing like a lot of extinctions of endemic species on islands and creates all kinds Robinson and that's exactly we're talking about with this go in that picture, so this is an animal that must be killed. If you want healthy out life on that island, the native wildlife and the native fauna, the flora. All. Stuff that lived there all the stuff. It's supposed to be there, you got to kill goats, delete everything, but I think people look people look and they they they at, like. I don't buy. By that. That was the motivation of that person. What I care about is motivations of individuals. I think you're right because, when California yeah got rid of mountain lion, hunting they're still killing. Several one hundred mountain lions here a year, people are comfortable with.

The total lion kill, didn't change. Much people are comfortable with the state agent or someone being paid to go out kill lines, they're, not comfortable, someone pain. Who wants to go? Do it, I don't I think they realized. I don't think they realized that state agencies are killing as many mountain lions in California as they are. I don't think people I understand that. I think people do. Understand if something gets put on the ballot Would you like to reintroduce mountain lion? Hunting people go crazy like. Why would you do that? Not mine beautiful, they're, exciting. I want to see them, but There are people in Santa Monica, you know I'm saying and they're, not people that are living. You know an hour outside side of bakers Lynn got sixteen mountain lions in their backyard in a year. That's this is different kind of world. You know in the hp mountains out there and you see Mount lines all the time they have a lot of mountains in real issue and there's a

problem too, that I view this coming from. There's a problem. I think a lot of you a very hard time, empathizing with people, who might be negatively impacted by wildlife as well in the question of lion issue, where it's kind this idea like well, you better suck it up. Yeah So, if you're a rancher in your running cattle in the area where you're losing a lot of cattle, the wolves and grizzlies people will look and be you better suck it up. Buddy like really picture your problem, but your complaints are not legitimate. Well, they can't number to cut a somewhere to cut a grizzly losing Golden Gate State Park right.

I don't known bomb. I think that people would have would come to have a different perspective on that, to put it mildly, yeah, but it winds up being in the you look in in people. Are they they don't really want to hear about other people's problems of it? Doesn't if it does, jive, with their understanding of what problems are, and that is the area where the issue wrong, Grizzly bears and and the de listing. So you know they were delisted. They were removed from endangered species act, protection temporarily because they had had met all recovery goals. So when we look at what's the recovered population, look like they mapped out, would look like, and we've exceeded, that for many years now, and they were delisted, but then Wyoming and Idaho move to have a very limited hunt on them. Uhm, and then they were a federal judge, blocked the listing and they went back and listing was the federal judges motivation? Well, you want to hope that

that they didn't have one you wanted, you wanted to think that they were just looking at. You know the details of it, but I think there's a suspicion that that person, well. I went into that knowing damn sure what they were. Gonna do you know, but but you know We know them do a lot of these arguments round. They come down to like technicalities right no one's arguing that the populations recovered, but this Also, the argument that the judges probably trying to protect his own reputation, because the amount of blowback that a judge would receive for allowing a hunt to go through. So is vastly different than blocking hunt blocking out you're, not going to get that much blowback you'll get a few, little upset, but it had been established. Resources now you're taking something away from people, but if he allowed it pour the wildlife people would go fucking bananas on this, Yeah they tend to like in in common, but, like I don't column environmentalists like people who sue to block the delisting recovered of recovered species

They'll masquerade is ecologically launch is environmentalist but they're, just people who it's it's, tenable to them. They can't that they're never going to accept the idea that that you're going to have human exploitation of this resource right. They masquerade there. They have an environmental motivation was not it's like it's an animal rights motivation, there's a very, very there's a they we have a sensitive ear in a certain federal or you know in Missoula and so you'll see a lot of these cases, around wolves and grizzlies they'll get that they want it done through that cork. They know the brain have a friendly take on it. I think it was a real watching that happen. That's been happening recently. I think it was a real, a real travesty Becaus there's a couple things it happened like culturally in areas where you'll create a lot of tension with people. What is people that

there are living amongst these things and they're looking for some level of some of relief, and they want to see it go to state management. They might want see the state exercise some control over where certain Populations of large predators are spreading into and when it winds up being that there like their voices, are not heard, you know, and they feel that people from far away are really heavily influencing decisions that affect them on a daily basis and winds up, like a lot of animosity toward the species to where I think, I with the spotted owl right, the spotted owl can see known, perceive the spotted owl as the owl anymore. The spotted owls become like a symbol of federal over reach and you'll find it like the or you know, walls. For a while they like a symbol of a dispute in people stop like, liking the animals much and it becomes like this like contentious creature, and I think that the head. That way, if we keep, if, if we keep stepping

wildlife issues with the mentality that we've been approaching. The wolf and Grizzly Issue In the northern Great lakes, the northern hockey soon to be the greater Yellowstone ecosystem. Now I think you're dealing with cool and then you're dealing with national right, so the local going to have an issue with it, because they're going to be impacted by it's going to be directly impacting their life dogs are going to be killed. While you know they're going to take domestic cattle and all sorts of different things. You can have real issues with the people that like to go elk hunting the populations of diminished rapidly, but the rest of the country doesn't give a shit now people in San Francisco, they don't give a fuck about it. People in Chicago are impacted by it if, if especially, if they don't have anyone in there it it haunts or anyone that has a background in hunting and they don't have a background in it themselves. They don't care. Now, people really don't and it's I point all the time but um that I care about

the availability and an abundance of deer Elk, Moose caribou right. Like. I care about the resource is a lot of people who rely on the resource use. The resource major economic drivers. I'm definitely I'm anything, but I'm I'm regard myself as a pro wolf person. I got myself as a pro only person I cherish every interaction I have with those animals do, you think, allowed to be around him resource. I don't have a problem certain people, people do have a problem with column, resource and yeah. I'm like pro I like the in suitable habitat I like to see them present. I also like to see that that I also like to see them managed in the way that allows for a bun, wild game resources. What's going on house the bill to drop legal protections for gray wolves as passed today, whoa or interesting?

well roll out a little bit republican controlled house as to bill on Friday to drop legal protections to gray wolves across the lower forty eight states, reopening a lengthy battle over the predator species. Long despised farmers and ranchers wolves were shot trap poisoned out of existence in most of the USA in the mid 20th century by the mid century, since securing protection in the 1970s wolves have bounced back. Well, it's not really exactly what happened. Greatly. Michigan Minnesota and Wisconsin as well in the Northern Rockies in Pacific NW, that's sort of but they're, not talking about the re introduction. The re introduction The big issue right! Well, that's what people have great issue with it. But the reduction is only in one area. The great lake, the northern Great lakes, it's not a reduction. There was, you know, relation will movements of wolves coming down from Canada and, coming back in the northern, court Northern Continental Divide.

System, not a reintroduction yeah, the places where they have a yeah, yeah, well, yeah, the famous case of the famous reintroduction right also national park. So why are you now? It's widely viewed now that, if you wouldn't done that you would have had had you not and that re introduction had a natural flow anyway and natural flow from Canada. Out of universe would have eventually, you would have eventually have gotten there anyway interesting, but what they've gotten to the exact same levels know know at this. Point right now and the I think that be like laughable to act as though they'd be there now, but right, but but people there's no realization that you would of that without the. Reduction you would have through natural movement have eventually gotten you know. Do you think that that's the third supports the idea of the re introduction. You think the introduction was well thought out. I don't want. You know I'm not going to debate the merits. The re induction, like I said from my perspective on it, is to be in a place where it supports them yeah, my first,

Is I don't like the idea of extinct in an regional extirpation sickens me. I do not believe in. I do not believe, leave that, like as of people as a culture we can justify or afford to remove. Species of wildlife from the landscape native species of wildlife from the landscape. Like I said, the idea is sickens me. I'd like to you know, I'd like to have um all native wildlife present on the landscape, so I don't oppose it. What I oppose is the thing that's happened now is getting where we have populations that we agree like what will recovery look like and at what point, when How we manage all the different viewpoints that are coming in

different like interest of all these very stakeholders. Not what point were we get in there and and manipulate the situation that we're creating? I just would move at a different direction where I think that one, but that recovered species right in this case more time or walls in Grizzlies. I think that you should have that if you can do it in a sustainable way that doesn't have long term deleterious impact on the population- He manages a renewable resource, see this is where we're going to have issues have anything to do with just even the term you edge them as a renewable resource. You mean shoot them kill them and use their fur. Sure I think yeah. I think that recovered species that I if you put something on the endangered species ACT and it goes under federal protection uhm and then, when it reaches recovery. And the US fish and Wildlife service says it's recovered. It's time to hand it back to state management. If a state then decide they're going to do some limited harvest, particularly let's say there, even if their focus

in areas where there's like very high prevalence of human The conflict in the state decides to do that in some like minor way as a way to service the needs of certain segments of their population that want something to happen. I don't think that then some like activist, judge or or in Carmelo groups are animal rights groups to come and well never mind. We're going to pretend they're not recovered now, because we want to prevent the state from doing something that we think is unsavory. Well, the thought process behind the people that support blocking the hunt is that if you leave these animals alone, naturally they're going to find balance and that the Wolves will kill the elk until there's, not enough Elk for them to sustain their populations in the numbers of their offspring. Will dwindle and they'll get to some sort of a sustainable? yeah, but we already- I mean we live in uh. We live in heavily manipulated kind of land, a kind of man made environment. Now the

yeah that things are going to would just let things run their course and watch what happens? Isn't going to happen you're still going to have a lot grizzlies every year are still going to get in trouble. They're still going to get killed, just going to have mortality you're going have tons of grizzly mortality in tough areas. But there aren't acting in packs but still available, kill cattle and they come up. They brought up against humans. It's just like it's! Will you gonna have some that you're not going to let it run as a as a person as a hunter? I also don't have the problem with an actually support as a hunter that we would oh You know, while allowing wolves to be present on the landscape, that we would mitigate. Their impact on big game. I don't mind, saying I don't mind just coming out and saying that I like to have high populations of big game animals that are available to hunters and also, at the same time sharing some of that resource there

I mean walls underground doing it don't want to see them gone not anti will not into a grizzly it's just one of those. It's it's 'cause a wolf is so much like a dog and because there's not a great history, eating. Remember you tell me about one mountain man was favorite. Food was wall filled Dahmer, Stephenson yeah. I was arctic Explorer, one, a crazy that guy must her name over it, love will meet. The try didn't know no, no leaving Coyote gene Coyote so we know that species I've, never I've, never killed a wolf, never killed a grizzly bear just haven't, haven't eaten either of them. I ate one coyote yeah didn't know made it didn't like it haven't messed with one sense. Yeah you said that was similar to diver duck to write, vows Ramey we felt really taste like bad. I you diver, docks and still the diver dogs No, I have no, I haven't haven't

not anymore and haven't included any coyote recipes in the there's. No Coyote recipes in the wild game, cookbook either Wolf the ultimate one, the people going going to have a problem with a a very who are the the rubber hits the road? Well, you know in some places it become a moot point, because Idaho Wyoming Montana um all have state management whoops yeah, all of the things that were all these horrible things that were going to happen when the states resume management of wolves didn't materialize right, but those places also have a rich history of hunting yeah but it was going. It was be the end. The wolves right it hasn't been in the first few years in the first here's the wall, seasons. You actually had you, you actually saw the populations go up. Was it so hard to hunt them right? Well, they it winds up being that it putting that with that little bit of hunting pressure on them really changed.

There really changed their movements and change the way they perceive human threats and they adjust to it pretty quickly, but it hasn't led to you know. I think, a lot of people look in those cases where it was pretty effective. You know, very effective, to bring in to bring in limited regulated hunting had the desired effect on how those using landscape in ways which they were interacting and avoid I have no doubt too. I have no doubt to like the situation will probably in the northern Great lakes, they had state management law. State management, like it bounces back and forth, you're, going to eventually kind of depends all the political winds blow your venture wind up with it there and you're not going to see vanish from the landscape. You know you does not. If Grizzly bears wind up doing it, you're still going

you're going to see gradually expanding populations of Grizzly bears to fight, despite the fact that they're using limited harvest to achieve certain management objectives is not going to be in the world which is not yeah with you and I think the Grizzly Bear thing. You probably have the same sort of situation where the grizzlies will eventually think of people as a threat and it'll, probably for everybody. That's one thing that people that Only the people open again people aren't really a lot of people looking from the outside in aren't very sensitive to it, yeah idea of the way that which you know that this is impacted, professional hunting guides hunters, but For my people- and these are people that I care about and I care about their needs yeah right and it's an issue so time will tell worth- where that winds up, but we see it in BC where they've just taken it away and they take it. I'm taking it away in a very irrational way, because they they have a large population of grizzly sin, pc, it's very large and for people that live up there, but that hunt them

This is kind of scaring the shit out of them at all the sudden you've taken this away. First of all, it was a source of income for a lot of these people that would guide them But it was also a smart thing to control the population and keep them away from humans. Well that I watch that closely I don't feel it being another country. You know you don't have that sense of being that other countries don't have that sense of the of the you could influence you know. So he is like it's. How I watching something happen in a disk. And when you don't feel it is this close the night- and I don't know all the factors that play as well as I do here. I have some friends live up there. My friend, my cock, rich who's, a guide up there and he told me horror stories about grizzlies had one trying to get into his cabin from like six feet away. Yeah- and you know they're big fuckers- are love the death. Your credit, I mean it's cool and they're real.

I mean it really. Is it's a wild thing that there we have this huge monster that lives in the woods yeah. I have been charged by my wouldn't change a thing man yeah and I won't charge by I'm- and I I like, haven't I like every encounter in every mix up and it's really it's like deeply complicated stuff and in when Tom. All these things is also they become like everything they become a oxy were engaged in the debate about what is you know, asian debate about like conflicting views on wildlife and these animals step into this debate, and the debate centers around them, and it winds up being bigger than a debate about grizzlies, bigger than a debate about bison or buffalo right, bigger than a debate about. Wolves. It's just that these animals step into this ongoing dialogue about what is our relationship with the natural world

What is our relationship with renewable resources What is our relationship with rural versus urban perspectives on how people should year round wildlife, be impacted by wildlife, and so it's This is through line of us, trying to sort out how to be like good, responsible stewards of the landscape and that debate always centers around these things like you could have a huge argument. You could be like in a lot of tension with your spouse right and it springs up in a debate about how best to load the dishwasher or who was supposed to Up the kid from school and always like it always finds a place to live and right now we're like this argument about american wildlife and what is our relationship to it as found its based live right now around large predators, yeah, and in Scotland is found its way to live around a feral goat on an island. Well, that one case yeah,

travel in that you do and all the hunting trips, you go on this, has it gotten to a point ever that it seems like a job yeah? As now I have kids, I I've. It's changed a little bit of you a little bit differently, but no, I still I still really love it and I'm able to know that uh well. They know that I'm missing my family, while I'm out unable to know that and feel that pain in still know that. I love what I do and I love talking about the things that I talked about and- and you don't know if you would like as a as I'm sure you do like it's like this tremendous privilege that you're able to kind of grow up to have you know they have this like intense interest in the subject in this intense is dressed in lifestyle and have the ability to like introduce people to all these different ideas right

so yeah. I can have those two things: simultaneous the kind of longing to be home more but enjoying being out. I think if they would, if the longing to be home more, would override that someday. It might change. But right now, I'm you know I just have seen so many things that I'm happy to have seen and to think about it. Future of not accumulating those experiences. At the rapid rate that I've accumulated in a min, yeah kind of bums me out a little bit. Yeah you've lived one hundred lives. You know that the trip that you were talking about when you were in South America in the jungle and came across those pictographs. How do you say? How do you call those things? Petroglyph petroglyphs lives on the rocks. The no one had any idea who made no one know why they were just there now. No, it is like a spot on a map that tourists go to visit. Here's the petroglyphs, now they're. Just there,

Is there in the the hunters like yeah there? They are the ancient ones made these hey. Let's get the fish yelp and they really don't give a. But it's like you're you're, seeing who knows how old that is thousand years old, example more, but that's a broad and stuff like that. Yeah beautiful experiences, man and then the you know, so either way I eat and live the way I eat it's it's yeah, I feel fortunate, all the time or Thank you very important, because there's is this. Real lack of well read articulate people that support your position that are in the media. I mean you, the a lot of the shows that are on these hunting networks that they appeal to a very narrow bandwidth in this narrow band this. You know just style. It's eight

It's like your stereotypical idea of what hunting is to a lot of people, so they'll flip through the channels that watch that for a few minutes you see someone hooting and hollering after they shoot. And then they get this bad taste in their mouth about it whereas I tell people all the time if you really want to get it understanding about what hunting is about. I always recommend your show because your narration and your reverence what you're doing and the animals, and just your appreciation how cool the experiences and how wild it is dead. You know, for lack of a better term, to just to be out there in nature and to be in the pursuit of these things in the take these things, these wild creatures and feet your family and have it become a part of your life and to sustain yourself with it primarily. So it's you you're, giving a perspective that I don't think is available.

But I think our is is really important, because it's there's so many people out that are out there that are hunters that are smart, well, read people that feel frustrated. Like God, I wish everybody could see it the way I see it yeah. I think it's important to point out that my love of hunting Ann of fishing an of living like a hands on relationship with the natural world living in close proximity to wildlife, like my interest in that and desire to do that, uh predated by a long ways, my ability to talk about why. I think that those things are important. It was there. It wasn't like. I didn't, grow up around that and then later started understanding the stuff. Thinking about it and then decided like well the path for me, then-

Considering what I know now the path we then will do to figure out hunting. It was like hunting was there I loved it. I love it today. An I just had the luxury through what I do for a living to spend a lot of time. Thinking about. Why is that the case if this feels like harm used to you and you can kinda like live in this and understand and see how you fit into some greater? You know the ecological picture right if, does feel that way, and that seems to be true. How is it that like? Why is that right and it was pushing at those edges that I eventually developed a way in which I talk about it now I meet all kinds of people who live, that same lifestyle that I lived growing up and when I talk to him a thing that they appreciate is just that that someone is articulating to them, something that they felt to be true and knew to be true, but just hadn't had the. Timer. You know the time or ability to really go out and express it. So I just

I would never want to act like like. I've invent like I'd, certainly have not invented some way of thinking about it. Like L, the Leopold in the note, Theodore, Roosevelt Gifford Pinchot throughout history, like Harrison Tom, a going for contemporary writers, has been a lot of people have been saying in talking about in experiencing the outdoors. In a way like I'm like invented some new things, I'm sorry, Iraq, I am trying to. I I'm working toward like articulating expressing something that has been in existence for a long time. If people see negative stereotypes winner on Youtube or seen negative stereotypes, uncertain television shows a lot of that stuff is self feeding. You know, I think a lot of stuff gets created because it does have a shock value to it, and I would think that that minus the camera, a lot of

minus the camera, a lot of like activities that people might feel are abhorrent, might not even be taking place where there is a hamming it up for the camera that goes on. Engine And do you think that there's like a sort of a stereotypical pattern they feel like they have to fall into so they fall when the cameras on almost like a Dj Strip club voice, yeah you know. I think that there's some of them- you know I mean there's some of that is kind and there's also a people of thing that happens with people who feel under attack, and and in many ways you know, hunters are under attack in a lot of ways in a lot of places, and I think that there's a way when you're, you feel like you're being attacked, you feel like you're being pigeon holes, stereo, typed or response is to cram it right back down someone else's throat right right. You like also you and and there's definitely that stuff for, like you fall into this also

against them, and you know fought down like I'm gonna, be you know, I'll show them how we really are yeah right. You get into this like kind of dialogue thing, it's a lot more pain. It's like more painful, I think on not maybe not more In is Demi Moore hard to be like okay, let's talk about this for real This is really something we need to discuss like, dig and and discuss it, and I think a lot of people feel like that. Hunting feels it's something: that's natural to them. They like to do it and they don't feel the need to take the time to explain it and when question, when pressed to explain it, they may be kind of lash out. You know yeah. It may be lack the ability to look at it from an outside perspective. 'cause, it's been a part of their life, their whole life, and they don't want to justify it yeah it's it's all. There's also the weird thing that as much as

you, can appreciate hunting and think of it as an ethical way to acquire meet. Everybody can't do it. We've got too many people it's untenable and that that's so I mean there's no responsibility for you to acknowledge that, but it's it's something that it gets brought up. When people talk about the the how ethical position of meat is really like either hunting or you'd have to raise something yourself and be We we wear or get something from above farmer who's you know, will completely ethical from the from birth to death and- and you have to be comfortable with that, but the most it's goal, in my opinion, is a hunting, but then people always say yeah, but everybody can hunt okay, but I can If I can, what do I do about the fact that everybody can hunt? Well, everyone could come in it's a moot point, since it doesn't matter. I guess

they're not going to, but no certainly, everyone could enter into the hunting game. You know you could come in and hunt. It would just mean that you had a much larger pool of people after all and resource and that limited source would be allocated in a different way. Yeah you could. You could have total participation, no just be that every person slice of the pie would be much smaller, but it's not like you know when we look at what one stay met like looks at like. What's what what's the what's the Turkey harvest, that our state could support They break the state up into a bunch of different units. They look at population trends and they determine how many turkey can we afford to harvest without impacting the Turkey population right if everyone,

The state wanted a chance. You still wind up with the same number, you don't wind up with the same number of turkeys being killed. It would just be that you would have less opportunity. You have to wait longer to get your turn. So it's not that everybody can't on, I don't think that it is. But it's not even really point is everybody will not when I do the stuff that I do like in in in writing a wild game cookbook. I'm doing two thing things and running wild game cook, but I'm doing the main thing that I feel is the most important part of my job or the most important part of what I am is I'm like having a conversation with people who live this lifestyle right, like those are people that I relate to. I Want to represent the world in a way that it did like enhances their lives, provide education right and share my experiences with an audience. People that I recommend is is a tribe that I'm part of which is like a may, Eric hunters and anglers and I'm presenting them like doing a cookbook, I'm presenting them like best practices how to sort of like live the best version

level of a wild game lifestyle. They can hear the way to think about an approach, wild game, but but also the the secondary Parham do is presenting a world to people who might be unfamiliar with it right and yes do. I have the hope that people will like say, read this book and then be like man. I want to participate in this lifestyle that could mean watch them walking down to the local river in their city and flipping over rocks and picking up crayfish, but it is introduced. Bringing them into the natural world and bringing them engagement with nature, and I do view an hope that that will happen will happen. Some grand scale or will have hundreds of millions of hundreds in this country. Now that's not going to happen, but I do think that it is important that we do have more people involved. We in large measure we fund much of our wildlife

work and management from law enforcement, disease, research on and on. We fund that stuff, through hunting and fishing licenses and through excise taxes on sporting goods equipment, If the more people that are engaged in this activity, I think the the better it winds up being for american wildlife. I agree: but the idea is that everyone can't do it so the dear that you're saying that this is how you ethically acquire me this is not a it's. Not a solution for everyone everyone. I don't. I don't. I don't say that this is the only rising you talker. I'm saying this is one of the arguments of people make. If you say that you know hey, I hunt for Miami. This is how I ethically acquire me. You know they well. Everybody can't do that because there's not enough animals yeah, that's true! That's true! Everybody can't do that if more, if he even more people got involved. It's not is not a solution for the entire population. You can say well, that's good

population are not going to do it anyway, but it's uh that gets into It's a it's a stranger there's, just the giant now of human beings and need to be fed yeah is almost no other solution, the solution that we're doing right now, unless they come up with some sort of a family that lab created meat or whatever the they're gonna, come up with an axe which they are do you. Your lips are curling. As the this involuntary? I said laughed really happy like yeah, I'm pretty happy with uh, I'm pretty happy with my diet right now, yeah and alma But yeah I watch that kind of stuff and I'm curious about about it. I don't take it as a pre insult by stretch now, if everybody switched to lab created meat, but I still had the and I still had the ability to continue eating how eight eat living how I live like. I don't view that as being a future problem, Rocky Mountain Elk Federation is

to foundation what is a federation foundation Dave reduced to a lot of different places and made sustainable populations that are now haunted Uhm- and this is this- is a beautiful thing. I would hope that they continue to spread and continue to do that do you- think it's possible that other game animals could be reintroduced to places where they would develop such a large pop that we could sustain, maybe even double the amount of hunters that we have now. Is that possible that well put it this way? Uhm! Yes, ok for stars! Yes, You know that you did pull of article about walls. You know I sell, like, I think, every article from mainstream news sources to get this involves walls you'll, you can detect the bias of the individual writing it an there saying how wolves have only been recovered across ten percent of their historic range elk, that's about the same for Elk yeah right Elk are missing from eighty plus

percent of their historic range in the lower forty eight right, but we have you know you know at various times we quarter million of them living in Colorado, or you know some states at one hundred thousand whatever. Yet now, perhaps twenty Two thousand Lebanon KY. Those were all gone. New Mexico at a point had zero right, Michigan, zero, Kentucky, zero Pennsylvania, zero Elk were gone from the unregulated slaughter of the market, hunting era, when people could shoot meat and sell it into urban meat markets. They limited American while game before we figured out how to do it at the word. I keep using all time now, which is like regulated harvest regulator management. So all that stuff was gone later, that there are states where there was no stay through. There was no dear

at the time of european contact interviews in thirty nine states, a got will down the turkeys in nineteen states. You have turkey hunting seasons in forty, nine states, we've done a tremendous job of recovering wildlife, particularly tremendous job of because to to demonstrate like what happens, to an animal that hunters value and love and are able to use as a renewal resources, those species tend to really enjoy a lot of protections and they thrive because people are invested in their best interest. So yeah we've created Turkey hunting seasons in thirty states, so, yes, you can recover what you can like do things wildlife and like create resources. The fact that we now we used to argue about what's going to happen with deer going to like drive deer to extinction in certain states or extra patient. Certain states now are big Argument is what we do is having so many deer here it.

Is being you come up against social tolerances, it's hard to like you know, when Fill in the map on Elwin, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation looks and filling in the map on Elk. You got a cell along the idea that you're going to recover Elk and there's a lot of resistance to covering wildlife 'cause a of inconvenient to have around they do a great job of brokering deals with states eating places where you know state maybe has a patch of habitat. They think could support the animals and providing the expertise and financial support and all that stuff like bring cool things, but generally you wind up where, because of settlement and cities in suburban areas we want with fewer and fewer places where we can go and do it so to fill in the map on on recovering Elk cross? All that range where they're supposed to be. I don't know that we'll get there, but we've got there a lot of other stuff news. There's like and you'll you'll like the Wild Sheep Foundation right there trying to do the same thing with bighorn sheep. There is not

in social attitudes, they're one's a bee in disease like they spent from domestic sheep yeah their main, like the main problem preventing us from recovering bighorn sheep is disease type of pneumonia, the come from domestic, sheep, wow and people. You know to to go in and say to someone who's running sheep on a mountain domestic sheep on a mountain and say, hey insult you and no insult to the you know, you're four bears have been sheep, painters here for one hundred and twenty years or whatever, but we would like to try. Recover american wildlife and bring bighorns back this mountain range and that's going to require you moving these sheep out of the way. It's an insulting idea that people so there's a blocker there and every animal has its own type of problem turkeys. It worked. 'cause people don't get pissed about dirt. You know no. They, like yeah in look at what's going on with just allowing you know,

one in the walk out to Yellowstone National Park. That's been an issue. For one slash century now for, like I'm not comfortable with you, letting these big ask things walk out of the park and roam around because of disease. Grazing right. Is it the people, don't wanna, be inconvenienced by wildlife? These are places where. How would you like in that area? I'd really like to see like one of one of Wanna Bison leaves the park. He stops being a wild animal and becomes livestock. What's going, on without American Savannah thing. What is that that that Graham the APR yeah. What do they call that again, the American Prairie Reserve yeah? What is going on with that explain what the that is: zero Razi. I mean? I know it's a long story too long yeah. We're going to we're working with having the it's too long,

working with having the founder on our show we try to do. Is re, introduce a bunch of animals into a gigantic chunk of land, and they continue to more of this land and are running block management on this as well. Yes, and there's a lot of yeah there's a lot of stations in controversy, and it's like a it's a it's, an idea that a lot of people are on easy with, but the problem is not the problem. The thing is, it's like people were, you know they they have a they have funding and have a thing where, when bland comes for sale, they buy it and the goal of buying up the land is to turn it back into. You know turn it back into wildlife, habitat for native wildlife and it wine. It's Contra, the controversy around. It stems from the fact that some people don't like to see areas that were that

or like traditional economies in rural areas, like cattle ranching, and and to see these to see areas returning to a wild landscape is threatening to people from the one hundred active. Is there allowing there's a lot of places that people used to be able to hunt any, preserve, is allowing hunting to go on and people are coming in saying: well, they need to make sure they need to assure us that hunting will be allowed here in perpetuity and because we're suspicious about. What's going on so there's a lot of like you hear bout in so many ways but the core mission is something that most people. When you look at the core something that most people are going to look at and be pretty comfortable with being ok, your guy or an organization You have money and want to ranch, comes up for sale, you buy it on the open market, seller names is price. You pay the this is now your land. If choose not run cattle, but one

bison roam around on it? Why should I care right right, but people do care because look at it as being like a value judgment, a they look at it as being like a van. Value judgment about rural economies. In about agriculture, oh huh, I didn't think about that when there's a thousand more aspects of this, one thousand where access it is very like it's a rich subject love to get into it more about next time I come on Ok. Next time you could take like an hour to explain the situation. What is their long term plan like how song. Is this going on for so when going on for quite awhile right The long term play is that overtime. You would assemble a p, a chunk of the great plains. As far bigger than Yellowstone National Park, that supports of.

Driving population of bison wolves, Grizzly bears um, you know in a in a park like setting wow, but it doesn't come without doesn't come without its own bits of controversy. And yeah a again, it's like it's something that everyone has a pain about, the the the there was a version they don't like to talk about that there is a version is called the Buffalo commons that happened long ago, where a there was a social scientist named. I think it was Frank popper by the last name of popper and he was looking at demographic patterns on the great. Lines and he was observing the ways in which the areas on the great lanes where the population was shrinking. Ok, so a lot of counties on the great plains where, through

there like long term, agricultural trends and other issues where the human population is rapidly shrinking rapidly declining in this sociologist brought up this idea that if these trend continue you're going to have this rare case in which a lie Scape sort of accidentally re wild okay mmhm, where everyone laughed, which is not a story, were familiar with. We look at what happened so wild lands. You know across the world by the general stories like people move in a while they've moves out. So this idea that we can all like the Buffalo Commons, okay, and that was in It just so happens that that idea that this, the idea kind of centered around this area on Jordan Montana right because you have large tracks of federally managed public land up there. You had a lot of I like ranch land that wasn't that expensive and people could buy it, and it was like the

into the idea. I think that now there was such a nun, popular notion, cuz it had to do with like economic decay, right and shrinking towns and reduced resources for public education, all the kind of stuff that comes from having an economy, that's not thriving, but overtime that, like Buffalo Commons idea kind. End of segued into this American Prairie Reserve idea and happy sort of centered around the same chunk of land bill Kittredge a western rider who deals with a lot of landscape Environmental issues was talking about in the wake of the Buffalo Commons idea Hopper's. Work was talking about going to Jordan Montana and talking about the Buffalo. Commons is a great way to get your kicked, because it's this idea like like, if culturally, if culturally, like There are cultural producers and ranchers were celebrated and they made a civilization out of the wilderness and they brought and animals and created economies and created communities

for someone and now say no thanks, but no thanks. Bro we'd rather go back and. In in eliminate your presence on this landscape, and we don't in fact value what you did and we're going to try tired, as we can to undo what you did, because we now I view it as the you did there. Your people did the wrong thing or in a crack that wrong and some like it, it's an instant some people. It's like. It's insulting idea to a lot of other people. They celebrate it. 'cause they're like hey, if it's for Ellen, I buy it, it's mine. I could see it from both perspectives. Sure man, it's very much like the hunting thing. If Europe but you have a deep history in it. You you understand that you know your perspective, and she is from a rancher or as people the outside conveniently can be ignorant about it and go out those ranchers. I want to see the buffalo

In my perspective, my perspective on wildlife is Ben. It's a thing that you it's a thing that you care about. You work to conserve you who want to have it on the landscape, and you also eat a lot of it and that's uh, yeah. It is I'm glad that can't sell wild game. I'm glad that mark and hunting is not a thing, however, I would really love it if there was a restaurant, where you could go where you could buy like, really well prepared wild game dishes like a really well prepared bear well appeared mountain line well prepared. You know, fill in the blank with the animal. I just think that would be a fascinating place to eat. You know and baby maybe maybe if they could do something like that, it wouldn't be that you could actually sell the I mean there has to be some weird work around it. I have to be like maybe it's

I have to get the condo on my dinner party. I would have that's fine, but I mean, but I would like to do if there was a place where the general public could participate in it I think to get a better understanding, and I got a put up these post time of elk that I cook and people god damn I wanna eat. Some of that. I don't eat that. How do you eat that you gotta go get one of yeah. I the only way you can eat that yeah well, you by my house, you can go and buy the farm raised version but then it yeah. That's one good luck, Getting a farm raised, blueberry black bear! Well, no, not that case, but you know you could buy, but then it's the whole conversation around the captain. Server industry, but you can buy. You can buy to raise, raised ranch environment right, yeah I mean as long as you're getting it from New Zealand you're, not dealing with Cwd and a lot of the other issues that we're dealing with in America right well yeah

they're! Not so I mean there, you know those those places are tested and and one herds that have c w d and I'm are destroyed right yeah. Yeah, but the well the whole New Zealand thing. There was an interesting thing that you brought up on. Your podcast recently New Zealand. There been talks about actual eradication an and The arguments of hunters always uses hey we're controlling the population. This is a good survey, provide comes along and says. Well, how about we take care of that never say, hey, hey! Well, so fast yeah. It's uh that that takes place in a really an exam or they have these like. Like thriving, be robust populations of non native wildlife and you know the government is all does has always and does now do a lot of cold.

Of these animals. They don't have predators right. They have like extremely like they're, very thick on dev stream, Lee high reproductive rates and the government is actively engaged in or around the clock. Gunny Wildlife from helicopters, six you're just letting around should leave Iraq because you have to because they're trying, not you don't you know that you have to, but they do that because they're trying to you know protect certain ecosystems and and keep like a lot of the of native plant species from going to extinct and fragile environments and all kinds of reasons, because there's no death right, there's, no there's no there's no predator control on which is huge, and then a lot of places just completely inadequate amount, hunting and the thing that hundreds of I've been able to say in Australia, New Zealand is they've been a little too with uh in a culture where, like particularly in Australia, like a culture that seems to be not as friendly tour hunters are there in America,

You have to say: well, you know we're participating in wildlife control and then later when people come up and they talk about. We know we're going to get serious about this and we're I'm really actively with uh like totally eliminating the species, people are justifiably made uneasy about it. Because it's a it's a thing they've come to appreciate and rely on in a resource that they want to use and now they're, like oh wait a minute I'll kill. Yeah like I'm being here. It was a point in this weird, like a note by the put you in a in a weird with the rhetorical put position, but I understand where they're coming from, because it farm. If you could live there and you could agree that we're going to have some small number of amount, the landscape and we're going to use those and we're going to hunt those and eat those. I also, if some said: hey they're gone now I would be bummed yeah. I hunt Turkey

I was saying earlier, had turkeys in thirty nine states at the time of european contact, we have turkeys in forty nine states. Now I hunt turkeys in a lot of those ten states that didn't historically have turkeys and that do now- and I generally have perspective, trying to preserve native wildlife and trying to control non native 'cause. I don't want to wind up with sort of a monolithic wildlife pattern. These same super resilient adaptive, species such as Canada, geese in rats and white tailed deer take over the entire country and pigs yeah, so you like like yes, I want like the variety, so I'm generally like antagonistic toward non natives, but If someone came and said okay, you know what we're going to actually go in and kill off all the turkeys in those ten states that historically didn't have turkeys. I would say like how you know really 'cause, I've kind of grown really like those turkeys and they're, not really causing a problem right, and I think that some people, if you're, New Zealand Hunter, Australian, Australian,

I don't think anyone's argue there should be no control, but I think that they have like, let's find a balance, I think we find a balance with some availability animals on the landscape since they've been here since the beginning of our experience on this continent, some availability of animals. That's fine like a reasonable compromise here. Well that was one of the discussions as well about Hawaii right, like some of the hawaiian islands, eradicating the pigs and then the Hawaiians, were saying well they've been here as long as us yeah. We both been here that our ancestors had been here one thousand one hundred years. They brought the pig with them how am I a native Hawaiian in the pig has right, there's like maybe you people ought to go new, I always like again, man, always instinctively when I stuff. I and Think that leyline lean in an instant of lean in from the perspective of

instinctively lean in from the perspective of the the hunter and angler you know and like and in and love all these little debates, and I think that they're all really helpful and interesting, but now I feel like I can recognize their paint, and I can also look far away. And laugh at the absurdity of it. I even had a guy write me from Australian say this is a real bummer because expo this is us to the thing we gotta say like yeah, you know I I wasn't really just doing it, I'm I'm trying to help the ecosystem by eliminating non natives. I like having some around and I just got to come out and say that that's a bummer. I really do wish. There was some sort of a restaurant. I think they would be a great place for people to get a perspective. There's no way to do that, though huh no but I've, no there's not well, I mean not for all the things that you're talking about now and I don't I don't. Look too the

there is talk of a lot of people, have being too are pushing, this idea that in areas that have too many white tail deer on people who are really pushing. To re open up the sale of of wild harvested deer. As a solution to deer overpopulation, but I'm, but for me from the perspective, from my perspective and from the damage that was caused, Unregulated wildlife slaughter, I'm very very uneasy with it, and I do not picture myself ever coming around and supported the idea that we would start marketing that we would start marketing wild. No, I agree- and I think just the sheer possibility of fuckery and people shooting him in poaching him and selling him, and it's just

yeah and it just it's a it. It would increase the commodification wildlife yeah in in that something that and that something that also just on count with. In general, the commodification wildlife I think, about resource availability for hunters, and I think that uh People who enjoy access to certain areas now to go hunting to to like hunt for themselves and their family. The minute You made it be that those dear had a dollar value attached to them. There a lot less opportunity for people who choose to hunt to feed themselves. Because it would all of a be like. Why would I let you come in or allow you to come in and use a resource when I'm just going to do my best now to collect it up and sell it yeah and so again for us reasons for what it would mean for hunters for our perception of our

our relationship with our resources at that I'm I'm extremely uncomfortable with the I c, keep it it's an idea that keeps popping up. We have in some areas And I- and I usually I hate to say that he toddlers to me two years to much this too much that was like by whose measurement, but in some areas we really do especially. Start getting the into issues like Lyme Disease prevalence and ticks and and and starvation and is just the possibility of other disease outbreaks in the spread of certain wildlife diseases? There's some areas like by any reasonable measurement. We have too many deer yeah. Well, look it's already. One o'clock know how crazy is that time flies in this room. Um, your podcast is awesome, really! Is I'm glad to talk to you to doing it and every chance I get I point to it. I appreciate it. I really do appreciate that you do it, because I think it's it's my favorite podcast to recommend to people that want. If I want them to get

understanding of hunting without you know even watching it. Listening to you talk because you have some. Guess on where you know you might not even be talking about hunting, you might be talking about biology. Might be talking about history, you know it's a it's just a great podcast and you're a great guy for the job. You play a very important part out there. I really really believe that. Thank you appreciate, and I am glad you talked me into doing it. It's been in terms of all the things I do that? Writing is the thing that enjoy doing it the most other things I enjoy having done it more right, but the thing that I enjoy actually doing it. I'm just have like a smile on my face, what year is such a great talker? I mean remember the first time you did my podcast even before meat eater, when you were just coming off of the wild within what is it, what is yeah and I remember What is this guy will podcast. This is like how many years ago,

seven years ago. Something like that. You know the first time I ever heard the word podcast. This is embarrassing. The first time I ever heard the word podcast was Helen. Cho tally, me that I should go on Joe Rogan's podcast and I didn't know what it meant. That's how early you were into this yeah we're into this ship. Before I ever heard the word wow. That's crazy kind of background and plug my book again yeah. Please do so. It's called the meter fishing game, cookbook recipes and techniques for every hunter and angler got a picture of Jamie Bam there. It is. I say one last thing about releases right now releases this week on November twenty, but it's available for pre order everywhere, and it's broken into a bunch of chapters where it has big game small for game, like rabbits hares, squirrels, upland birds, waterfowl

freshwater saltwater, fish, shellfish and crustaceans, reptiles and amphibians. Lawyer bullfrog stuff is in there and you want to talk about a species it's spreading all across the country. Bullfrogs yeah really yeah I've heard a lot of bullfrogs in places where they are very unwelcome. What are you hunting with a variety of ways, mostly frog gig I don't care where you live, like there's a lot of people who live in a city like dude I'd love to go out and get some wild game, but I can't get help. How do I do that? You could be out gigging frogs at night knowing or even know, frog gigging, crazy, grab. We talk about all this kind of stuff in the book, so it explains everything from how to like break down and process and freeze stuff. And then for everything. There are many recipes. The recipes walk you through how to use the entire thing. So are you from for for your white tail deer everything from the Tong.

To the rear shank. How like specific recipes on how to do it, and also just general best practices and guidelines around handle the ingredients and then all the stuff around all the substitutions. So there's no such thing as an Elk heart recipe right like how to like handle game. Arts, whether it's mule deer whitetail, whatever like how to approach a heart and uh in an attitude toward wild game. That is not it's cut, specific, not species specific in with fish to that, like. I don't I'm not Connor with the idea of like those are the walleye recipe. This is a bluegill recipe, but how- handle, like varieties of freshwater fish and like what kind of what kind of recipes you can use that are interchangeable. Depending on where you live, and what you use and all includes all that and real, pretty pictures beautiful, you can see. Jan is proteles how to do the tail skinning method on squirrel.

I don't care where you live. You damn sure they're near squirrels. People are very uncomfortable with squirrel eating, not me on you know in the end, the guy that got the disease mean squirrel brains, nothing do a scroll rains. Oh the article, I sent you yeah what what he everybody send me that article yeah there's no demonstrable correlation? Like thirty PETE thirty Americans a year, you know wind up with that form of crunch felled young, thirty Americans, lineup up with it, just have to be this dude sometime in this past, it's in some sort. It's a prime and pre on the on demand is the same as thing to have the people, but but it was there the the correlation between his diet and what happened to him was implied, implied, put possible if you go read up on it, but now

seems like, like people are really saying like there's. No there's no obvious relationship here no obvious relationship between eating squirrel brains and getting a prion disease yeah that there's plenty of people that get the same thing that haven't been eating squirrel brains right So just they were just looking at the unusual aspects of his diet and and to that, it's not that scientific and the We got a lot more love windows that some squirrel hunter died means grow brains right than it did when the later subsequent pieces came out where it was like whoa yeah. We don't really like you know, prosecute yeah items grow with you. Thank you, Sir may now very good but there's not a person in the world. You know we have in the in the cookbook. Is we have how to do Buffalo, Buffalo wings, hot wings? How to do hot legs with squirrels yeah we're eating at their night really yeah, so it's just like you're making rules on shooting, squirrels uh

the very state by state yeah, so if you and if you're in New York, you know you have a season, you know school all season in most states. So it's either. It's either one or the other way, either there's a season in a bag limit or they're treated as a non game species. So hearing California, Squirrel season is a bag limit. I think it's for a day for for squirrels today season. The is usually run from sometime in August and September into winter. In the January February, where I grew up September, 15th September, eighth, to any word: 27th archery falconry only Jesus Christ, archery in felt found so August for for archery and felony falconry falcon got to go to the trees, grow zone map right, but in your state, Jack rabbits are open, for instance, your state jack rabbits are managed as non gaming. There's no bag limit and open year round, snows like cottontails. No issues have different management and a lot

states. Pine squirrels are red squirrels, which aren't commonly hunted but they're, more regarded as like things that get into people's houses, but they're, not one. For me. Be listed as a non game species but fox squirrels and gray, squirrels v's game species. So in New York I think the bag limit living. There was six per day. Is action limit of two bag limits. Did you shoot the squirrels in Brooklyn Needham? No, no, when you leave it on there. I caught some there in eight hundred am but I would hunt out of the city at my body's farm and some other places so where I was Michigan the squirrel season was September 15th and it ran into the end of January five squirrels a day possession limit of two bag limits, the state I live in now treat scrolls is nongame species, so there's no, close season no bag limit because there's not really a not of not widely distributed and are not commonly hunted all right, but yeah

places they have them and they're managed and you go out and buy a small game license for twelve dollars or whatever get your hunter safety get yourself. Twenty two or a or a shotgun, and you can become a squirrel man risk or a lady. Buddy Kevin Murphy, this one of my favorite guys on your podcast he's a squirrel man. This guy blows a horn in the woods before every to alert the animals that he's coming yeah blow you- carry the cow horn around the car. I think that I think it's uh a show far right is that right for. And when you blow the show far and like a jewish synagogue, is that what it is thanks called a show. Far like you, the rams they blow RAM's horn, it's not it's not a cow. He not a cow hermits ranhorn, you know in the end of you know, in the end of no country for old men, yeah uh have we talked about this before I don't know he talks about his father.

Riding out ahead of him with a horn of fire in the end, when you get here relates the dreams in the book, and it's in the movie murder, Tommy Lee Jones characters describing a dream in which they're riding through a snowstorm storm and his father rides ahead with a horn of fire and always how many people heard that and I had no idea what he's talking about, but what a common practice used to be, as you take a horn, Buffalo, horn, cow horn and it's hollow because it grows off a protrusion of the skull called the horn core. Then you pop the horn off and it's hollow and what people would do is when you left your campfire in the morning, you would fill that with embers and cap it will there be a little pin hole in it just to let a little bit of air in there. So I can continue to smolder and you carry that. Porn all day, full of embers and at night to start a new fire. You would dump the horn out and rekindle your fire.

So when he talks about his father riding out ahead of them with a horn of fire, what that's meant to say is, he knew his father would be waiting out of head of him with a fire burning wow, but Kevin Murphy just blows it. Let squirrels noise coming he's coming man. I was going to talk to you. We keep saying we gotta organise another hunt, we have loved, you have to do something call Brian gallon, I talked to him recently, will make it happen. He's on the phone you guys on Instagram man. And then you guys alive by everybody