« The Joe Rogan Experience

#1386 - Matt Taibbi

2019-11-16 | 🔗
Matt Taibbi is a journalist and author. He has reported on politics, media, finance, and sports, and has authored several books including his latest "Hate, Inc.: Why Today's Media Makes Us Despise One Another" is available now & look for his podcast "Useful Idiots" is available at RollingStone.com https://www.amazon.com/Hate-Inc-Todays-Despise-Another/dp/1949017257
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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the Joe Rogan experience. Jamie pointed out this congressman is that who it is the Jamie put this. Out that there's a congressman and he released a series of tweets and the first letter of all these tweets. If you put it all together, it's as Ab T didn't, kill himself or did not counsel sodas. I think it's due he did do the apostrophe yeah, did not hurting here. At that evidence of a link, Goss, Sir, what are the odds of this guide? This accidentally e small right now, it's kind of like one of those monkeys, typing Shakespeare, fan yeah. I don't think it could it could. Work, and the thing is he did it. Backwards so you didn't see what the puzzle was until the last tweet
Last time it is an email. I got a tweet from someone about thirty five minutes ago that I don't know if there's a bunch of people online paying attention to it or what. But someone alerted me and a few other people What is he it? Does? He have an image of that fucking that crazy. Ask is that is: should too okay he's a weirdo Each of these get November First November, for the mask yes yeah. What is that mask again? Vendetta was a representative of was something it's the guy Fawkes mask. Yes, that's right! Yes, this guy's, he's thinking long alternative lines of thought that really an interesting way of saying it alphabet. That's yeah, just making a bunch of tweets don't ever address, it is leave it there. Walkway Lewis, Carroll is famous for that wasn't yeah. That was one of our own, though he did. He did a lot of Citrix with words to read the book or leisure Bach. Now
yeah. This is a hold public to stuff in there about people who use who put puzzles in text. You know it's kind of a thing that the people that I guess back more in the eight century before well, this obscene case is probably the the most blatant example of a public murder of a crucial. Witness I've ever seen in my entire life or anybody's ever seen an the so the minimal amount of outrage about this, the minimal amount of cover, it's fucking, fascinating I mean what's amazing to me, just as a you know, somebody The media is that this was shaping up to be the biggest like news story in history and the instant he you know he died. Or was died or, however, you want to call it it to the store. Just fell off the face of the earth. Yeah is it's like nobody's doing anything about it, and I don't
percent understand I mean I get it. Why? Why that's happening, but it's uh. It's just amazing! Well, when the woman from ABC what was her name Amy you rooms that lady the one who wrote You had the frustrated moment that you called rating private moment right when she was talking about having the scoop, having that story and them squashing it right like this is all that everybody used to think was conspiracy, everybody's thinking, stoner talk this is you know you don't? I mean like this is the stuff where people just a delusional to believe all kinds of wacky conspiracies sure, but the reality is much less complicated. Well, this is not possible. This is one of those things. It's so obvious it's so in everyone's face. Well, there's a couple he's going, because there are many different ways this can play out. I mean
have a news director who just sort of instinctively decides. Well, we can't do that story because I might want to have will and Kate on later or might want to have this politician on later and it's it's not like anybody tells them necessarily that we can't do this, but it's a size too hot. If you grow up in the system and you've been in the business for long time. You just need the all these, things that are drilled into you almost like a level about what you can and cannot get into? And I think there, but there were some experts explicit things that happened with that seem to I mean they keep their. There were a lot of news agencies that killed stories about him that you know and we're hearing about some of them vanity fair. This thing you know so yeah, it's it's best, it's bad! It's too arable yeah yeah, when, when I found out that Clinton flew no less than twenty six times on a plane with abstain, I was like dude. I haven't flown that many times of my mom
Do you know Epstein yeah? I don't know, but I mean they have that many flights to have the secret service. Uh people involved- I mean that's incredibly bold, it was he dealing with just girls was is Clinton that much of a hound that he would go that deep into the that many times twenty six times. Well, that's the thing about the uh, That makes no sense to me like I, I thought that the percentage of people who are out note MIKE Pervert soon, that is a serious problem like with Betty to Philly or whatever it was, was pretty small. You know, but they had a lot of people coming in and out of this compound, and it just seems like it's a it's a very story. What were they really up to? I have, I have no idea and was: was it all a blackmail scheme? It's just it's just so strange well seems like the paraphilia aspect of it might be directly connected to abstains himself like he might be the one that has a problem with girls like sixteen and he likes
very young did like them, but with the other guys it could just be girls. Could yeah yeah! I mean that's why it's so crazy like how could it be that these, but maybe it's not but must, but they knew who he was, but they probably didn't the extent of it probably not yeah up until a point of until he was right and they're like oh, but then that serve when everybody backed off of 'em right, yes, yeah, I mean I'm, not a hundred percent yeah. I I haven't covered the story and depth of only. I only really got into it a little bit when you on the other guy. This is a tough one yeah, because it makes a lot of things that are are very tough to cover. Yes, you know the intelligence world is very tough to cover. You know it's it's hard to get stories out of there, that they don't want you to have yeah, This is this is like the mother of all stories in the uncertain terms of that and they're just little,
bread crumbs here there there that whole thing about Acosta, you know the Vanity Vanity Fair quote from him. Is that when he said that when he looked at the case, he didn't do it because I told you belong to intelligence? Yes, what does that mean right whose intelligence? You know what I mean like what agency? What what for and then you you pair that with things like you know, I I have on Wall Street, I've never heard a single instance of this guy actually having a trade right. You know. So what was had fun doing. You know I mean if you think about it, had twins a perfect way to do blackmail, because you can just have people putting money in and out all the time, and it would look like investment yeah, so very strange story: well, Eric Weinstein had a conversation with him. You know Eric Weinstein's with Peter Thiel capital Right Young easily, this kind of know what the he's talking about. Oh yeah, exactly yeah he's an actor right. This is nonsense right right is initial. Almost instantaneous response, yeah yeah,
what real Instead, he ever have what it will be traded, what what has got a billion dollars or whatever yeah yeah. Now it's half a billion under management yeah. It's ridiculous! Why? The guy, who owns Victoria's secrets, give him a seventy million dollar home right in New York City like what I mean these are all things that would have been really interesting to get into. You know, if you didn't try to kill himself to suicide, didn't happen to him like in the wire yeah yeah. So unfortunate, so, unfortunately, the cameras died, unfortunately sustained an injury? That's that you usually only get through strangle right, yeah murders, you he fell on the ground and accidentally broke. His hyoid bone happens all whenever I think he'll be. That's so bizarre, I'm I! I can't sentence a conspiracy. There is on one of the people who who doesn't like reading, but I can't I can't make the story work in a way that isn't you know, yeah your torrent.
Well, that's the thing: it's like it gets to a point where you like, okay, even Michael Shermer, who runs skeptic magazine liquid, the cameras were not working, okay seems like conspiracy. Michael Shermer, that doesn't believe in anything right right. He Fuckin' he's down the line on virtually every single thing. That's ever happened. He doesn't believe in any conspiracies. Well, How do you what's the innocent explanation for any is none that doesn't make any sense. You can't you can't spend it in any way to make it not a read a crazy conspiracy, specially when the the brother hires a doctor to do an auto oh yeah baby. I was funking murdered right, yeah, Michael Baden, the famous guy from the HBO autopsy show right, yep, absolute craziness, complete craziness? And you know it's an example of of you know: The answer is interesting because it's because it's about villains on both sides of the aisle
right. This is a classic something I've written about before is that the press does not like to do stories where the problem is bipartisan. Yeah right. So when you have an institutional problem, when Democrats and Republicans both share response, forty four it when you know or if it's an institution, that kind of exist in perpetuity, no matter what the administration is, we don't really like to do. Is really, if Fox, like three stories about Democrats. Msnbc likes to do stories about Republicans, but the the thing that's kind of you know all over the place. They don't like to do that story, abstinence. You know, he's he's friends with Trump and end with Clinton, I mean yeah. We have more friends on the clean side, but still
and I think that's. This is one of the reasons why the story doesn't have a lot of traction in the media, because neither side really likes the idea of going too deeply on. It feels like to me well it's, but it did the above the blatant aspect of it don't mean the closest that we have to. That is the absolute murder, the Jamal Khashoggi murder. That's the closest thing we have to absolute murder right this one, but it, but it's also so insanely blatant. But now you actors that are are involved it and they all disperse and then there's left with this confusion of who's responsible for it. Saudi Arabia. That's another example where you can't really say it's. You know one side of the with with both parties have been incredibly complicit in their cooperation.
With the saudi regime and in need on the massacres that are going on. Yeah. I'm in is classic example of what GNOME Chomsky used to talk about with worthy on were the victims right like if the if the Soviet Communist did it, they work that was bad, but if death squads in El Salvador killed a priest or a catholic priest, you know, then, that that was not something we in right about because they were our client state. Yemen is a story we don't write about. Syria is a story we do write about, but they're really equivalent stories and yeah the but you're absolutely right. The car show the thing I I don't think either party in or either side's media really wants to it into that. All that deeply. How much is media shifting now, like you, you've, you've, obviously been a journalist for a long time to come. How much are things changing in the light of the internet? Well, a lot in this is, I mean I have a new book out now. That's really about this right, the what why the the business is changed. What's it called Hey Nick yeah, it's out it's out now and it
it's, it's really about how the press, the business model of the press, has changed to me. It's something that you talk about a lot here on your show all the time talking about how agencies are always trying to push narratives on people trying to get people wound up an upset, and that is a conscious business strategy that we didn't have maybe thirty years ago. You know you think about Walter Cronkite or what the news was like back. In the day, you had the whole family sitting around the table and everybody watching sort of unifying experience to watch the news, now you have news. The crazy right wing uncle, and then you have news for the kid in the at shirt and their different channels and they're trying to wind these. These people up, you know to get them upset constantly
Hey there and a lot of that has to do with the internet, because, before the internet news, companies had like a basically free way up to me and making money they dominated distribution. The newspaper was the only thing in town that had a you know you if you want to get a want ad it had to be through the local newspaper now with the internet. The internet is the distribution system. Anybody has access to it, not just the local newspaper and so they're easy money is gone and we have to chase clicks more than we ever had had to before. We have to change the eyeballs more than we have to so. We've had to build new Money making strategies and and a lot of it, has to do with this monetizing anger and division and all these things- and we just didn't do that before and it's a had a profound difference on the on the on on the media as a right, have you personally experienced this sort of the influence where people have tried to lean you in the direction of click bait, or perhaps maybe alter titles that make him a little bit,
disingenuous or to get people excited about the styling. You know I I my editors at rolling stone are, are, are pretty good and they and they gave me a lot of Wheatley Way to kind of explore whatever I want to explore, but I I definitely feel a lot of pressure that I didn't feel before in the business, because, especially in the Trump era, and in I've written a lot about the Russia story right, but you know that's an example of once. Signs. Media does has one take on it and another size. Media has another take on it and if you are just a journalist and you and you want to sort of report the facts, you feel a lot of pressure to fit the facts into a narrative that Audience is gonna like, and I had a lot of problem with the register, because I I thought you know I don't like Donald Trump, but I'm like I. I don't. I don't think this guy's James Bond consorting with russian spies. I think he's corrupt in other ways, and there was a lot of blowback on my side of the business, because you know people in
liberal, quite liberal media you just have all there's a lot of pressure to have everybody fit into a certain narrative, and I think that's really unhealthy for the business yeah very uh, I'll right as soon as as people can be manipulated to conform to that narrative, then all sorts of stories can be shifted. Oh yeah, absolutely and and the job to be about challenging your audience every now and then right, like you, think, a certain thing is true. Well job to give you the bad news and say that you're wrong about that. That used to be what the job was to be run journalists. Now it's the op so now we have an audience we're going to tell you exactly what you want to hear and what you did and we're going to reinforce what you think and that's very unhealthy. A great example of this was in the summer two thousand and sixteen I was covering the campaign. I started to hear reporters talking about how they didn't want to report poll numbers that showed the race was
they thought that was going to hurt Hillary right like this. In other words, we had information that the race was close and we're not telling this to audiences because they wanted to hear that was, was going to blow out for Hillary right and that didn't help Hillary. It didn't help the Democrats not warn people about this right, but it was just because if you turn on MSNBC or cnn- and you heard that Trump was within five points or whatever it was, that was going to be a bummer for that audience. So we stayed away from it. And you know this is the kind of thing it it's. It's not politically beneficial to anybody. It's just we're just trying to keep people glued to the set by telling them what they want to hear, and that's not the new stuff, not that that's not our job, you know and it it to drive me crazy, yeah. It should drive you crazy! That what you said about journalism be
NG it used to be something that you're challenging your reader you're you're, giving them this reality. That may be uncomfortable, but it's it's educational expands our view of the world. This is the way Where do they get that now they don't that's the whole problem. Like you get, you can predict exactly what the H News Organization, what their take is going to be on any issue by going all just to take an example when, when the business about the ISIS leader, Al Baghdadi, in killed, hit the news instantaneously. You knew that the New York Times CNN and the Washington Post that they were going to write a whole bunch of stories about Trump, was over playing the significance of it that he, you know that he was telling lies about it. There they meet them. You they going to make the entire thing about Trump and then meanwhile Fox had a completely different spin on about how real heroic was but news on
have anywhere to go to just simply here. Who was this person? Why was he important? What were the rest of the people in the region? Think you know what kind of what is this going to mean going forward is actually going to have any impact you know is: are we going to? to continually is there going to be a new person like this every every time we actually accomplishing anything, you don't get that anywhere. All you get is Trump is a head on one side and Trump is a hero on the other side. That's that's not the news you know, and but the thing is it's like the business aspect of it is so weird, like you have your guys like Hannity or you can absolutely predict with I going to say every single time. You know what side he's on and he's blatant about it and When you see someone like that, you go okay. Well, this is okay. Where is this? Is this is peak bullshit right so where? Where do we go? Where I see both sides where's the where's, the
Where is the middle ground, where someone goes well? This is true, but you gotta say this is honest too, and this is this is what's going on over on this side and the Republicans the point here and you, don't you don't there's no mainstream media place where you can go for right now. No, there is- and that's I mean I mean this is one of the things right, but this is one of the reasons why shows like yours are so popular. I mean I, I think, there's a complete loss of trust that they feel people are not being honest with them and they're not being straight, and you know they they come to people like you. And a lot of other sort of independent folks who aren't like the one quote: mainstream media because they it's not really thought it's not reporting. It's not anything. If you can predict one hundred percent, what a person is going to say. That's not thinking, that's not report, it's not it's just marketing. For someone like me, that's so disturbing I'm a comedian in the cage fighting commented when people are coming to me like this is this
is the source where you go for unbiased representations of what's going on in the world? That's crazy I mean I saw her with Barry Weiss right and you just you, do this people basically didn't go journalism school right now. So she said something About how you should she's in the sod toady, and you said what is you just ask the simple basic questions right that mean where it. Where is that? Coming from? How do you know that you know like journalism, insurgent, that's all it is is just asking the but the simple questions. That's our pop to mind when you, when you're, in a situation like where this happened, how we know that, having that's true and but there's a whole generation of people in the press, know who just simply do not do that, go through the so just asking simple questions. How do I know that's true? Look after each story report you're supposed to kind of like wipe your memory clean and start over. So just
because somebody was banned. The last time you cover them doesn't mean that they are necessarily going to be the bad guy. This time you cover them right. You have to continually test your assumptions and ask yourself is this Who is that true? Is this true? How do we know this and we've just stop doing that, like the it's just the morass of like pre written takes on things and it's it's really really bad, and you can see why audiences are are are fleeing from the stuff? They just don't have the impact What's really really interesting. This a lot of this is this unpredicted predicted consequence of having these open platforms like Facebook and unlike where, where people are getting their news and then the algorithm sort of the direct them towards things are going to them off. Which I don't even think necessarily was initially the plan. I think the plan is to excel. Engagement right, so they find out what what what you're engaging with what stories are engaging with, and then they give you more
that, like are my friend, are, should fear actually tried this out and what he did was he when are you two been only looked up, puppy videos and that's all you look to for like weeks and then you tube only started recommending puppy videos to him. So it's not necessarily that Facebook wants you to be outrage, but that when you are outraged, whether it's over abortion or war, whatever the subject is you're going to age more and their algorithm favors, you engaging more of your engaging more about something very positive. You know if you're all about yoga and meditation. Your algorithm would probably favor yoga meditation 'cause. Those are, as you engage with, but it's natural for people to be pissed off trying to look for things that are annoying, especially if you're done working and you like God this world sucks. What's going on that sucks worse and then you go to your face. Working. All Jesus look at this God Dam border crisis right Jesus, look at this wall fucking. Here's the problem with these God.
Damn liberal, I don't know sure, and you engage and and that's your life and then it's it's saying all. I know how to get mad all fired up, I'm going to send him some abortion stories. Well, and then that's your feet right, yeah exactly but but there's so many economic incentives that go in there right. They know them the more that you engage the longer that you're on right, the more ads. Yes, as you can you're gonna see yeah right. So In that same dynamic that Facebook and the social media companies figured out, which is that, if you keep feeding something somebody, something that has been proven to spin that person up and get them wound up that they're going to they're going to come back for more of it and they're going to keep coming back an actually, you can expand their desire
just to see that stuff by by making the more sort of more angry over all and they will they will come back and they will spend more more more time on the news. Companies figured out the same thing in that that they're just they're just following stuff that you that they know you're going to you're you're, going to just be in an endless cycle of certain impotent rage all the time, but it's kind of addicting. You know, and they know that in the in there and it's it's like the tobacco companies, they they know it's about it's a product, that's bad for you and they just keep giving it to you, because you know it makes money for yeah and it's just the thing about it is all of it is about ads and how many they get a chance if they just said you can have a social media company, but you can have ads there's a new new federal law, no more ads on Facebook. No more ads on Youtube, no more ads on twitter, no more ads on Instagram. Good luck, right it was beautifully raw collapse, yeah yeah, but that seems to
what it is. It's like they figured out that your data is a tremendous amount of money and the way they can utilize that money is to sell advertising yeah I get it coming and going yeah they're they're, not only selling you ads or or it but they're, also collecting information, and we have to switch the condenser cell again yeah. So it's it's a it's a dual revenue stream. You know the media companies they're, basically they're, just consumer businesses were there. There are trading attention for ad space right, so if they can get you to to watch for hours of television a day, they have that many ad slots that they can show you in the know how much money they're gonna make you know, but the the the social media come please get it two ways there. They get it by attracting your eyeballs and then also selling selling your habits to the other. The next set of advertisers you know it's very incidents, but what's interesting about is that most people don't think about this as a consumer business right like Americans is very conscious of like what they put in their bodies,
so they won't need too many candy will, depending on who they are right, but people at least look at what the calories are, but they don't think about the news that way or social media what that what they put in their brains and it's also a consumer, yeah. It really is I've gone over that many times the people that that's a diet die. You have a mental diet as well as you have a physical like food diet, absolute we have. An information diet and a lot of people are just eating shit with their brain, it's the worst kind of junk food. It's like it's like a cigarette sandwich stuff. We did so fighting bad and it's getting worse. It is. It is getting worse and switch. Weird is that this is a ten year old problem and no one saw it coming and it's kind of overtaken Politik it's overtaking, taking social discourse everybody's wrapped up, and social media conversations they carry mon over to the dinner table and it gets people in our who at work and all this stuff. No one saw coming these, no one saw the this outrage. Economy from you know
social media sites from things like Facebook, no one saw that no one ever predicted that your data it's going to be so valuable. Now, saw that. I don't think anybody. If I mean I think some people in the tech business probably saw early on that yeah potential for this but you know in terms of other other businesses the news, media and also politics I mean you have to think about. The impact of this on politics is been enormous and you know I cover Donald Trump Trump would really, was just all about whatever you're pissed off about I'm right there with you, you know, and people are just sort of pissed off about lots of things. These days, because they're they're doing this all day long right now, and if you, if you can, if you you can take advantage of that then you're going to have a lot of success, and I think I think a lot of people haven't figured that out and some These things are real causes like people are upset about real things, but it's just not
roughly right. People did not see this coming and they didn't prepare for it's just weird that it's one of the biggest sources of income online and people didn't see it. Coming I mean Facebook is generating Ians of dollars and now, potentially shifting global politics yeah and uh. You know the whole issue of of a couple of companies like Facebook having control over what you do and do. Let's see yeah is an enormous problem that nobody. Nobody really cares about. I've tried to write about it a few times. I've written a couple of features about it What a serious problem this is like. If you look at other countries like Israel china there there are a number of companies. Were you seen this this pattern of internet platforms liaising with the government to decide what people can and cannot see and they'll they'll say? Well, we don't want to see you know the palestinian protest movements. We don't want to see
you know the venezuelan channel Telus or look you want to take that off, you think about how that could end up happening in the united states- and it is already a little bit happening- it's a little bit, but it's we happening only in the terms of leaning to the progressive side which people are okay with, because I think, especially in the light of Donald Trump being office. This is acceptable. Censorship, yeah, but they're. Wrong about Iraq, about that too yeah, yeah and and herbal dangerous, it's very short sighted, yes in, and they and- and I think, there's there's also this thing that happens with for they think well. This is never going to happen to me. You know like a you, can do that bad thing to this person that I don't like, but you know as long as it's never gonna happen to me exactly the wrong in the history shows. It always does happen to you. You know, and that's so weird we're giving these companies an enormous amount of power to decide all kinds of things. What we, what we look at, what what kind of political ideas we can be exposed to? You know it it. I think it's a
very dangerous that biased interpretation of what something is that was what people talked about when the initial Patriot ACT was enacted. When people like hey this might be fine with Obama in office right, it Obama is not going to enact some of the worst clauses of this and use it on people or the was the Nda, so would rise. Yeah yeah, where there is some of the things, were just completely unconstitutional, but don't worry, we're not gonna use those but you're setting these tools. Aside for whatever, president. We have like what, if we have a guy, you out Trump's Trump right, I thought we have a trump right. We have. We have next level, guy post Trump, there's some sort of feed tragedy attack, something that really gets people fired up and they in someone who takes it up to another level, and then he has these tools and then use uses these tools on his political enemies, which is entirely possible. Won't
and we've already seen that a little bit. I mean people don't want to bring this up, but you know other stories that have come out about trump they're, coming from leaks of classified info, that are coming from those war on terror programs that were instituted after nine hundred and eleven yeah. This slide. This certifies amendments act the NSA programs to collect, you like they're they're unmasking people like we have a lot of now that there's a lawsuit, a couple that came out about a month ago that showed that the FBI was doing something like sixty thousand searches a month at one point where they run. They were asking the NSA for the ability to unmask names and that sort of thing so we're I mean these tools are incredibly powerful, are incredibly dangerous, but people thought after nine hundred and eleven they were scared. So you know we want to protect our
Also, that's! Okay, for now, you know, will will pull it back later, but the net, but you never do pull it back right now, and I mean it, it always ends up being used by somebody in the wrong way and I think we're starting to see that that's going to be a problem yeah, I'm real concerned about Pitt places like Google and Facebook altering the path of of free speech, and leaning people in certain directions and silencing people that have opposing viewpoints and the fact that they think that they're doing this for good, because this is how they see world. They don't understand that you have to let these ideas play out in the marketplace of free speech and free ideas. If you don't do that, if you don't do that, if you don't let people debate the merits the pros the cons! What's wrong, that's right! If you don't do that, then you don't get real discourse. If don't get real discourse. You're, essentially, you've got some sort of intellectual dictatorship going on and because it's a progressive dictatorship, you think it's okay, because it's
who won everybody be inclusive, and you know I mean this is This is a weird time for that. It's a really weird time for that because, as you said, people so short sighted. They don't understand these, like the first amendment as for a very good reason, set up a long fucking time ago, because they did the math so where it was going and they're like what we have to have the ability to express ourselves. We have to have the ability to freely express the that's an ideas and challenge people that are in a position of power, because if we don't we wind up exactly where we came from yeah, I know and and courts continually reaffirms that idea that the the the way to deal with that speech was with more speed. Yes and they did it over and over and over again, you know we we, the the legal standard for speech you know still, I think, remains that he, Unless it's directly inciting violence, you can you can look. You can have speech that incites violence generally in the in the spring, for even up held that you can have speech. That's
comes from the material that was stolen illegally. That's okay, but we had a very, very high bar for prohibiting speech. Always an You know the the libel cases this locations for defamation. You know that also established a very, very high standard for punishing speech, but now all the sudden people have a completely different idea, but it's like when you know you forget about the fact that this was a fundamental concept in american society. For you know two hundred and thirty years or whatever they just want to change it. I am you know without thinking about the consequences. Well, that's where a guy like Trump could be almost like. It's well almost a trojan horse in a way like if you want to play three D chess, which you do you'd get a guy who's, just so Gregis, and so outrageous and then so many people oppose them, get that guy, let get into a position of power and then sit back, watch the outrage bubble and then
advantage of that and funnel people into certain directions mean. I don't think that's what's happening, but if I was super fucking, tinfoil hat. That's how I would go about it. I would say this is what you want. If you really want to change things for your direction, put someone that opposes it. That's disgusting and that way people, just a rational, intelligent person, is never going to side with him. So we're going to side with the people that oppose him, and then you could sneak a lot of shittin that maybe they would agree with and any other circumstance Trump's election is like another nine hundred and eleven right like nine know and eleven and all of a sudden people who weren't in favor of the government being able to go through your library, records or listen to your phone calls and all of a sudden they were like. Oh Jesus, I'm so freaked out, like yeah fine, when Trump got look at all of a sudden. People suddenly had very different ideas about speech right like they.
Hey that guy's! So bad! You know the! Maybe we should consider banning X y and see you know yeah and yeah, but it's it's if he was conceived as a as a as a way to discredit the the first amendment it going and some other ideas that would that would that would be a brilliant three teach us move. Yeah super sneaky yeah That's like China level. Many steps ahead, yeah exactly what do you mean? What do you think all this goes. It seems like this is, I mean obviously just wrote a book about it, but it seems like is accelerating he doesn't seem like anyone's taking a step back and hitting the brakes or opting out. It seems like people are just wrapping up the rhetoric yeah I mean, I think, that the the divisiveness problem, is, is going to get worse before it gets better
The business model of of the media now is so entrenched that until some of these these companies start going out of business because they're doing you know they're they're losing audience because people don't trust them anymore. The you know the news is going keep doing what it's doing. It's going to conclude that the Hannity model is going to become normal for for news companies. I think in our it already. Basically, is you know on both the left and the right, in. In terms of you know, the internet companies they're consolidating their getting or more power all the time and there's, I think we've already seen that people have, I think too much tolerance for letting meant letting them make decisions about what we can and cannot see and- and it's gonna get worse before it gets better. I don't know what do you think? I that's what I think I mean fake Facebook Twitter. All this put. The link twitter has some of the most ridiculous reasons for banning people. One of them is dead, naming
yeah. So if you called Caitlyn Jenner, Bruce right. Okay, I like it better when you're Bruce banned for life right, you can't even see I'd like you you better when you were Bruce banned for life right yeah, and actually that that What's really interesting about. That is that's a that's a core concept that we've changed completely like at all the different ways in the past that we punish speech, we punish the speech, not the yes right so if you know the liable definition, all those things. First of all there all done through the courts, so you know you had a way to fight back. If you thought you were unjustly accused of having defame somebody reliable somebody, but if they found against you, The person who got something out of it was the person who is directly harmed right in the in the courts, judge that and they you know it was, Like you were banned from for life from ever speaking again right. They just gave a bunch of
need to a person who might have suffered some kind of career, injury or whatever? It was because of that? And Usually there was a retraction or it was removed from the press or whatever it was, but it wasn't like we were. We were saying never going to allow you to be heard or seen from again, we kind of we. We were of encourage encouraging optimistically people to get better right, and to be different right now and now we're not doing that at all. Now we're just saying you want one striker to starts whatever your con and it's not like it's a public thing, so you can't sue over it right, yeah! Well, that's what's crazy about it, because it is a public utility. In a in a way. Yes, it is even Jack Dorsey from Twit limited as much on the podcast, and he wishes that we would view it that way. He's actually proposed two versions of twitter uh. With their standard censorship in place and then a wild West Twitter. But I'm like sign me up right. How do I get on that wild West Twitter, which is the problem with things like gab and I've gone?
a few times and washed it, and I even in Milo Yiannopoulos, is criticized for being. This is that it's like so hate filled because it's the place we can go and fucking say anything right. So the only but it's attracting a people that just want to go there and just fucking shoot off CAN As of n bombs and raw everybody, a it's crazy. I mean it's there's real, communication there as well, plenty of that too, but the sheer number of people to go there just to blow off steam because they can't say those things on twitter or Facebook or other social media platform without being banned because of that it becomes a channel for it. You know, and it's like it doesn't get a chance. It doesn't get a chance to. The concept is great. The concept if you're not doing anything illegal, we're not going to stop you not doxie anybody. You know threat anybody's life, we're not going to stop. You go ahead, but if you do that and you're the only one that does that on for
everyone who wants to just say Fuckedup shed just goes right and you get a disproportionate amount of fuckedup shed yeah and it's directly because of the fact that these places like twitter or face have censored and they they make so you are scared to say whatever. I want to say, and so you can't see, even if controversial ideas that maybe some people would agree with in someone you get banned for life, for just your virtual ideas even controversial ideas that are scientifically. And biologically factual right. The transgender issue I give you say, is a woman number a million times a Megan Murphy ever for yeah, a man is never a woman. She says they tell her to take it down. Stick screenshot of it puts that up, takes it down, It takes a screenshot of the initial tweet. Look at that banned for life. Right a man is. Never a woman is a fact. That is a fact. It's a biological fact. Now, if you, decide to become a woman, and we recognize you as a woman in society. Well, that's just common courtesy in my eyes, like you, have a
it has this issue, they feel They were born in the wrong body. Ok, I get that. I'm cool with that, to make it so that your band forever, you can call someone a dumb Falk, an idiot, a piece of shit. Your mother should have swallowed you everybody's, like yeah, but terms everything fine here, everything is good. Say. A man is never a woman gone for life right yeah. Caitlyn Jenner by like you better when you're Bruce done, that's it yeah and and it's crazy and obviously people see that and they and they just get matter, and it seems legit, and you know it. It makes people very very resentful in ways that they would be otherwise it makes there's no pathway. This there's no other thing right, there's no free speech platform that universally accepted like these ones, like, I said, like Gabor, there's a couple other ones out there. They no one's using him. It's a very small percentage of the people in comparison to something like twitter is enormous right, and so because,
people don't want to leave, be kicked off the platform there compare radically changing their yeah yeah right, yes and sense right and we're seeing this a lot. Also with political ideas to like you know, do not have a podcast use. Useful idiots, it's called right. We like we, we try to talk to people who are kind, is excluded from mainstream media because that's happening a lot now right, like if you you have the wrong idea about anything, whether it's Russia, Gator or Israel. Nine conflict or Syria or whatever it is you'll. Suddenly be sort of labeled thing with Tulsi Gabbert friends. They called her right, like to get stuck with the term assadist on Twitter. Nobody wants to associate you with you. No one wants to defend you right. They all kind of in the it's your like. Suddenly, like the kid with lies, and people don't want that to happen to them to this race. Stop say
Ng X, Y and Z, yeah, right and and they just sort of go with the with the flow- will go with the crowd and it it causes. The sort of you know uniform, conformists, discourse that doesn't really really about anything right. People are afraid to talk, which is crazy, yeah well you're. Not post, to talk to someone. I experiences all the time. The this idea of giving someone a platform like like, if I have someone on like a Ben Shapiro or something like that, you shouldn't give that guy a platform. Well, we already got a platform, should win better. I just talked to him and find out what his ideas are and and and asking about those ideas, but we had a very our conversation about gay people where it means Klay full on biblical religious interpretation of gay people which to me is always strange like okay. How do you stand on shellfish? You know the
just as strong on shrimp or as you on gay guys like. Why is it gay guys that, like the Bible, is pretty clear on a bunch of different things that don't seem come to fire people up the way home, Sexuality does like why? Why do you care You had a friend who was eating shrimp, you go to his house, we had shrimp cocktail, no know, but you wouldn't go to a friend's house. If he was gay marriage. So you won't sell break gay marriage, but you don't mind a guy who's got a fucking, a shellfish platter right out at a party like that's since Bible man, you're not supposed to wear two different kinds of cloth You know these are the bunch there's a bunch of shit in the Bible that you like cloud I was wrong about that, like how confident you How come over to you, the you can interpret God's word. So perfectly they feel like
the lobster slide. But I know that but- and we gotta stop- that you know like it's really weird, but that's the whole point. Is you you to challenge the idea? Yes, yes, but but the the prevailing view. Now. Is that even having the discussion? Yes, because you have a platform, I mean I read, thing in the land, the Atlantic. You know where they're like you give people too. I forget what the phrase They were saying something like you had to be able to many chances. The chances, the people who are already forfeited their right to have them or something something along those lines. That was silly. I gave up his hand when he said about me that I mean exhausted bowl but that he likes naps right. I get all it's about you that is with this you're, not you like maps. Okay, so you don't like people that have energy. I'm super! Sorry, with the two I mean, I, I thought that piece was. Really interesting, because that the whole idea that there are people who have forfeited the right team, okay forever to communicate forever. Well, who decides
I mean it again, there's this there's this intellectual snob ism goes on in you know, Real Franklin, my side of the media I'll where well. What what what are inappropriate thought is what's what's right, thinking what's wrong thinking, you know what who gets to have. Platform who doesn't get to have a platform who were going to call a monster who are not going to mean I just don't understand the arrogance where it where that comes from to decide that some people, you know I I totally disagree with people like you. You know Alex Jones or Shapiro, or you know things, and but I don't think that they should be wiped off the face of the earth. I mean I I don't know well it's interesting to challenge people on these weird ideas and find out how they come to them and, and you will get a lot of fence sitters- that will recognize the flaws in their thinking, if you let them talk, 'cause, there's a lot of people that aren't sure either way. Maybe they haven't invested a lot of time investigating it. They, they really don't know what this guy stands for. Maybe they just read a cartoonish version of who he is, and then you get to
I'm talking to go well, I see flaunt his thinking or please write about some things and a lot of people are white about some things are wrong about things and the right about things. In the only way you you can discern that is you communicate with them, but as soon as you D platform, people like for ever you going to make a bunch of angry people who's going to make a bunch of people that are completely distrusting Ann you're, going to absolutely empower the opponents of your ideas, but like people that do get when when did you get a chance to have their voice well when they vote so the more you do this shit, the more you censor, conservatives, the more they're going to vote against. Girls. This is just a fact and there's no getting around. That is human nature. Yeah I mean I lived in the former Soviet Union, you know for eleven years and one hundred percent. If you lived in soviet Russia and something was published by an official publisher, people thought it was
full of right, but if it was in the sun, is that if it was in the private we circled stuff that had been repressed? Uncensored people thought that was the coolest thing in the world like that. That was the hot ticket right and your autumn, Klay giving something cachet and and added weight by censoring it. This is just part. It's just the way it works is human nature. If people think that you don't want them to see something they're going to run through it twice as hard, you know. So I just your stand! A lot of that instinct. I think people people have this idea, that it works, that you know the d platforming marks, but you can't the platform an idea. You know you may be able to a to a person or two yes, but you eventually, you have to come front the idea, you can do it to a few people and it has been successful, which is one of the reason why people are so bold and like they have a successful d platform Milo, I mean they really have it's very hard to hear him talk anymore. You don't he's not in the public
patient the way he used to be right cuz. They kicked him off of all these different platforms and if you, go into why they kicked him off these different platforms. But even if you don't agree with him- and I don't on a lot of things like boy I don't agree with kicking him off those platforms. If you listen to what he got kicked off or it's man. I don't know this. This doesn't seem like this makes a lot of sense. Yes, no, I mean Same thing with Alex Jones, yeah, Alex Jones has said, you know, he's he's good afternoon, couple times in ways that were pretty funny, actually but when he was, you know, kicked off the all these platforms no, I wrote a piece saying I. I think people are kind of doing that and then ends on dance a little early on on this one. You know because you Jones, the classic example of how the system the way. This use the work they would punish them for for being in the libelous about the sandy hook, thing right, because that that was sort of fit the classic definition of what was what prohibited speech was be
But we wouldn't, he would have lost, probably a lot and he still might in those court cases. But move him forever. I think you know it just sets it it. It creates a new way of dealing with speech that I think is very dangerous. You know because the gold- keep getting moved if you can ban him for that, then what why You banned me for repeating the things that I said about Megan, Murphy or band, because what I said about Bruce Jenner Band this For that I mean it gets you get further down the line. You keep moving these goal posts and next thing you know you're in a very rigid tightly controlled area where you can communicate and your suppressed and that just it accelerates your desire to step out of that boundary, and it makes you want to say things that, maybe you wouldn't even thought of before and also logistically it's credibly it's insane. Even think about asking platforms to rationally go through all this,
How can I talk to somebody was a pretty high, ranking Facebook executive after the Alex Jones thing he said think about what we used to used to to do just to keep porn off Facebook and we're go dealing with what a couple of billion items of content every single day. We had these really high tech algorithms that we designed to look for flesh tone but that's a and that's how the vietnamese running girl photo got taken off foot facebook because they like automatically spotted a naked girl. I know, and they they took that down that you know the he's like the Facebook Algo doesn't know, that's an icon of journey, right. It naked girl. So you say you take that and now you're gonna ask Facebook to make decisions about about ideas right but yeah if it. If it's that hard in that expensive for us to go through and just just to keep child porn off of Facebook. Think about how crazy it's going to be when we, when we start having entry level people deciding what is
in is not appropriate political content, it's it's not only going to be impossible to enforce its it's going to they're going to make a mess of it and they will and they already are. You know and- and I think that's what we're seeing well. That's why twitter so weird, because you can get away with on Facebook. You can say things on Facebook like Facebook doesn't have a policy but dead, naming or of Facebook, doesn't have a policy about miss gender in people, but they do have a porn policy. Well, no twitter! You can have formed write me then. I have to be very careful when I give my phone to my kid It's the make sure they don't open up the twitter app yeah, because I fall a lot of dirty girls and some of them did that mean it's just right. There is no warning your face. I mean it's kind of crazy right they are. They have such a an open policy when it comes to sex, which I'm I'm happy. They do. I'm happy not even that I want to see porn, but I'm happy,
their attitude is just fine. It's legal to you. Don't have to follow those people. If you don't like seems like it's in the American Spirit yeah, but but that's what it all comes down to for me, but but yeah. I know the the the policies are completely inconsistent with with water like I've. Seen that and I've talked to people who've been removed twitter for saying pretty borderline things like they are basically pretty mild insult or something that would be threatening. Only if you really squint hard. You know there was a guy from the RON Paul Institute to got to got taken down, for instance, because he was having a a fight with some you know. Guy, who is, I think, a Clinton fan. I forget what it was exactly, but you'll see behavior, that's much worse from people who
of another political ilk and they will not be removed or they might be a smaller profile person. They won't be removed. So and then what is that all about right like if it's only a person who has twenty thousand followers or higher we're going to? I mean it's just so you just can't do it. There's just too many layers and I'm against it just generally, but just in terms of the logistics it doesn't make any sense. I'm against it generally too, and when I talked to Jack- and he was explaining to me the problems with trying to manage things at scale, you really kind of get a sense of it. Like you guys, dealing with billions billions of humans using these things right, yeah, yeah and but they are already in how many countries around the world they have armies of thousands of people who go through content to try to flag this or that. Kind of political content yeah, I know on its people yeah they have. You know injured. Germany has a kiosk. I forget what the term was. They had the some some
who is scary, sort of authoritarian word for like filtration centers, or something like that? The Chinese have have officer armies of people, I mean I, I did a story about Facebook and how it was you know, teaming up with groups like the the Atlantic Council here in United States. Remember a couple years ago, the Senate called in Twitter, Facebook and Google to Washington and asked them to devise strategies for pervert preventing the sewing of discord. You know so the big it was asking them to come up with strategies for for filtering out fake news and then also certain kinds of offensive content. But you know that the stepping stone to what we've we've seen in other countries. I think you know- and I think it's really worrisome, but but nobody seems to care on on our side of the aisle it which is, which is very strong,
my son, the island. It's my size, the aisles. Well, it's a it's a censorship issue. You know, and it's it's a short sighted thing, as you said before people and it's not even there's people that do pretty egregious things from the left, like the Covington school thing, when people- saying we gotta docks these kids and really give me their names released their names. These people are still on twitter to this day right talking about kids. That just happen to have these make America great again, hats and I have a friend who used to live in. That area said like no, you don't get it like. There's these stands, these kids are on a high school field, trip He stands. We could buy these hats everywhere. These kids bought the hats there they think they're being funny. These guys play the music and then get in their face. You take a photo of it. It looks like this guy standing in his native american guys face, but then see the full video. It's don't know the native american guy was playing his drum, walking, twords him, and then everybody starts
just limit their minds. You know enhances the dudes outrage cycle is just so exhausted and signaling everyone signaling her virtuous, their eggs, everyone signaling there on the right side, everyone signalling you know I want games. Take these guys down like you're talking about, sixteen year old, kids right, it's so fucking crazy and all what is the he's guilty of smiling remedy guilt is guilty of yeah. Now he's gonna Oh, my god, I mean yeah, it's crazy and the signaling thing is crazy and For me, the in the in the news, business a lot of people that I know went into the when it's a journalism, precisely because we didn't want to talk about our political views like the whole point of the job is like: You know we're just going to you what the facts are like not I tell you what I'm all about you can't do that anymore.
Editorial. I everything is about edit editorializing and signaling is. Is that what you're saying you're you're you're telling people what your stances on things and that's that's the opposite of what the job is to be in this is again the one of the things I'm trying to focus on is that you know: what's exactly we're talking about people used to go to the news, because they wanted to find out what happened in the world and they can't do it anymore, because everything that you turn on every kind of content is just editorialized. Content where people are sort of telling you where, where they stand on things- and you know I don't wanna know that go with the information yeah, it's just so hard. How does this get resolved because we're dealing with essentially a two decade old problem might mean would give or take before that before the the social media and before the internet and web sites this this. Wasn't this wasn't it You could count on the New York Times to give you a nun, highest version of what's going on in the world don't necessarily know that's true anymore. No, no uh
This is kind of gone over to this model as well. Under super woke, they've struggled with it, but there were there was an editorial and are about this in the book that in the summer of two Sixteen this guy! Jim Rutenberg wrote, the sort of this piece said: Trump is testing the norms of objectivity. That was the name of the peace and celebrity says: Trump is so bad that we have to look like rethink what objectivity means we have to not only be true, but true to history is judgment. He said, and we have to have copious coverage and a great coat and aggressive covers. So we're going to cover trump we're going to cover him aggressively and we're going to show you were going to take a stand. On this issue. Rather than just tell you what happened it's a rather than doing the traditional New York Times thing of just the facts. Tell you sort it out right. You you, you figure out we're gonna, tell you, you know kind of had a at what what your stance should be, and you know I think we where do we go from here? How does it get resolved? I don't know because you know
this is the the financial incentives change they're not going to change? You know the business used to be back when you're talking about with the New York Times, and there were three networks and they were all trying to get the whole audience right. So they were, they were. They were doing that kind of neutral fact finding mission and it was working for them financially. Now they can't do that. 'cause, the internet, it's it's your hunting for audience in little groups, yeah and they're, just giving you hyper politicized stuff, because that's the only way they can make money. I don't know how we change it. I don't know how we go. You know we reverse it. It's a problem. It's so interesting, though, because I mean if you looked at the human interactions and if you looked at you know dispensing news and information and you follow trends from like the thirties to the forties. The fifties to the sixties, the seventies able like will people
getting better at this people getting bitten, whoa, whoa, whoa, what the fuck is going on. Now everything is off the rails. There's two camps, barking each other's blatant Information on both sides, blade distortions of the truth, blatant editorializing of facts. Hey. What happened? Guys yeah? No, it's it's! It's crazy and not not that the news didn't have just Tions Jesse for, like you think about you, know we covered up all cool. Also thing. You know: massacres in Cambodia of the secret bombing. You know use of agent orange like stuff, like I just didn't hear in the news and what degree it should. Now, though, you turn on either MSNBC Nbc or Fox and you're right, you, you'll, find something that's just totally full of shit within five minutes. Do you? Usually and that did not used to be the case. You know Thank you, individual reporters. You stick. A lot
pride in their work. You know and it's still now now now, when you make mistakes in the business, you don't you don't get bounced out business, in the way you used to, and that's that's really strange lonely plagiarism right, plagiarism still answers you. So what plagiarism can't use is pretty yeah, that's usually fatal right, you're, not gonna, usually recover from that I mean some people have kind of near inst problems with that and make the you know: I'm not gonna end yeah, but but but no, but if you think about people who got stories like W the w the thing wrong right. Not only do they not get bounce of the business they all got promoted. You know there. It's like there! Yet editors of major magazines. Now- and you know, and and so what does that tell people in the business wall tells you You know if you screw up as long as you screw up with a whole bunch of other people. It's ok, you know which is not. In the end that we used to have a lot of pride about that stuff in this business. Now we now we don't anymore, you know, and it didn't do
there isn't a shame connected with screwing, something up that they used to be. I think, there's real danger with in terms of social media, especially in not complying to the constitution, not complying to the first amendment, and it is a real danger in that, and I don't think we recognize that day, I don't think we saw what social media was until it was too late and then, by the time, it's too late. We had already had these sort of standards in place and the people that run it we're already getting away with enforcing their own personal bias or ideological bias, and this is this is that you're at this position. Where you go well, how does that ever get resolved they're not going to resolve it on their own they're, still making ask loads of money? What do you do? Is the government resolve it? Well, if Trump steps and resolved. It looks like he's trying to resolve it to save his own political career or right to it to you now to help his supporters. Thank
yeah, I know, and and and and no matter what, if Trump does anything about it automatically everyone's gonna be against it right right. You know, even even if it's on even if there's some sense in there somewhere, people won't won't, won't get behind it, but they do anything about it. It's going to be a correction time, there's going to be a gap time where it's going like that, where it's just going to flood with people that are just like with his new found freedom is going to go should have the town, you know, but I mean but How would you? How would you fix it that's something, because it's not only about rules, it's also about culture, like people have already there in this pattern of you know not saying the wrong thing right and they don't. I think, there's we're in a culture that doesn't even really know how to deal with free if we actually had it in the same way we used to you know no one seems to have a forecast like no one's like out. The storms is going to last about four years and then it's like there's no there's no forecast now
right. Well, assume second uncharted waters right right, but if you historically the tendency is once you have a tool that kind of can be used to keep people online and for enforce compliance of ideas and been it always ends up worsening and becoming more and more dictatorial, authoritarian and yeah. Again you go back to the soviet example like once a started, you know really exercising a lot of control over the press and literature and things like that. It didn't get better. You know it. It just continued becoming more of a you know, an entrenched thing until so I that's what I
but I think they were headed more in that direction. Yeah. I think so too. I'm not really concerned just really concerned with it on both sides when people dig their heels and ideologically the other side just gets even more convinced there correct yeah, yeah and if there's no cross dialogue of any kind, not anymore, and even now it's it's interesting. If you had you had Bernie Sanders on your show and Sanders Sanders is one of the few politicians left to has this idea that we should talk to everybody like There are no illegitimate audiences out there. Now and, like we know, that's my job as a politician is to try to convince you but that's not normal. In the democratic party anymore, I mean Liz Warren you know is made a big thing about not going on Fox and about to having certain people take take,
twitter and yeah, and- and I I I think, that's increasingly- the the sort of line of thought in mainstream democratic Party thought now is. Is that we're just going to rule out whatever whatever? That is forty seven percent of the electorate, which is not gonna, talk to them anymore? Right right, I don't know how that can that can possibly be a successful political strategy. And what and what the point is you know yeah? No, it doesn't make any sense. I was reading something where people are going after tells Garrett for being on now, Tucker Carlson she's, a girl talk to everybody. Thank and I'm I'm glad she does, and and by the way is like it's hard for her, because she's kind of an outside candidate, it's hard for her to get time on these other networks, and so they want to punish her for being on Tucker Carlson's, and then they have this. You know reduction
view of who he is he's a white supremacist like though we she supports white supremacist. She goes on a white supremacist. Show, ok! Is that what he is risen? Really what he isn't? Isn't it a lot more than that? There's a lot going on there, because you guys are fucking with life. You know you're funny, with the reality of life and you're. Saying it in these sentence. Is your printing it out in these paragraphs, as fact, and you sending it out there it responsibly, and it's just really strange that people don't understand the repercussions of that yeah, the something we talk about on our podcasts easily. Its all time is that, through with the this it it's a catch. Twenty two right like you, you don't invite somebody like Tulsi, gabbard on to CNN Msnbc or eat they're kind of x from the same platforms. Other politicians get so they go to other platforms and then you say. Oh you went on that platform. So your illegitimate! Yes, you know
You want them to do like you know what they do. The same thing with people who go on RT, for instance, right, oh well, you're helping the Russians because you went on Artie. Well, That's because you didn't invite them on any. I mean yeah they're, good people are going to try to talk to anybody. They can to spread their ideas and that that that kind of propaganda thing is is pretty. Constantly in the use of the term terms like what white supremacist with Tucker Carlson. I mean there are. There are a million terms now that you use to just kind of throw what people and what they're trying to do is create the x factor around people yeah right like once you get this, Someone gets a label associated with them, then Nobody wants to be associated with that person right right and they quickly kind of die out of the public scene and and and that's I think, that's really bad too. You know it's it's like a it's. It's just an anti intellectual way of dealing with things, and I and I think it's it's not good. It's we
you're, so prevalent. That's weird that the show few proponents of amore you know, but open minded way of thinking, yeah and just to take the gap we had. We had together on our show two and immediately we got accused. What do you love Assad? right. Do you want to bomb Syrians you wanna want to murder? No, I you know she's a president Little Canada, and we want to talk when you hear what she has to say, but they mean We go to the maximalist interpretation of everything and then but they're basically saying when they ask you those questions are: do you want to wear that label too, because she's got it ready. So if you have run again you're going to have that label and people, they see that you know, and and so you know, people who have who don't have uh big following and who are worried about their careers and about you know, money and advertisers and stuff like that. They they think twice about interviewing that
in the next time, yeah and another way to get it speech exactly again. I don't know how you get out of it, you know and I mean I've experienced some blowback. I guess, but it doesn't hasn't worked yet right. You know, I mean it's not real, it's it's like it. Just words like okay, but yeah and but you're handling it the right way benefit. I think people audience rewarding you for for not not bowing to it. You know, and I think that more people, if they took that example and said, I'm not gonna, listen to what the the pack says about this, I'm not gonna, be afraid of being called a name. You know that I'm gonna talk to. I want to talk to and then and- and then I had you know, explored whatever ideas I want to explore. Then did the staff kind of stuff wouldn't be as effective
so yes so easy to do to people and so easy to do it for them to the platform, people yeah, so easy and shadow banning all those other weird, that's going on. Yeah they're do channeling people and and and some people into these because of their platforms. That makes them less accessible, and I know where it comes from. You know I was young and politically active once you know you want to change the world, you want to make it a better place, so you're in college and you. Don't have any power you don't have any way to input makes into legislation. You know what I mean. So what do you do? You do social it gives you the illusion that you're having an impact in the world by maybe getting somebody d platform door taken off twitter or something like that. It feels like its political action
yeah, but it's not what I mean it's it's it's something that they that is open to people to do, but it's not the same. As you know, getting sixty convert and six hundred and sixty members of the Senate to to raise taxes on a corporate It's been invading it for twenty years. You know what I mean like that's real action, this game some random person taken off the internet is just not changing, but but people feel like it is and- and they want to, they want to do the right thing. So I I get it, but you know it's, it's not a no real political action. I don't think now it's gross, yeah, and it just leads there's so much of it and there's so little logic. So in? This must be a personal thing for you, but is this the unfunniest time- and Search history like yes, and no because you rewarded for stepping outside,
that's true in a big way, like yeah Dave Chappelle gets attacked, but guess what he also gets rewarded in a huge way when he goes on stage now. People go ape, that's true and part of the reason why they go fucking bonkers is because they, now, this guy doesn't give a fuck and he's one the rare ones, who doesn't give a fox. So when he goes up there, you know if he thinks, I'm crazy about whatever it is whatever protected, group or whatever idea that he's not supposed to explore. That's not going to him at all he's going to tell you exactly what he thinks about those things, regardless of all those woke blowback he's not he doesn't care, and so because of that he's rewarded, even mormon same thing with Bill Burr same thing with a lot of comics, I experienced it with my own jokes sure, more controversial bits, get people more fired up now they love it because everyone smothered they're smothered by human resources and smothered by office, pool six in your smothered by social.
Of course, restrictions, and you just don't feel. Like you can express yourself anymore. This is true, and all people also don't have a they feel like they're being watch the all the time yeah another thing. So that's really the kind of can't let it all hang out anywhere, yeah, right and and so that's yeah they they they do feel incredibly like repressed under the gun, yeah. I think that that's that's true, yeah. I just a few. Like it. I mean I'm not a comic, but but I just imagine it must be uh or challenging environment, it's more challenging, but more rewarding too. My friend already said it best. He said this is a great time for comedies comedies, dangerous again right, that's true, yeah, yeah. It's kinda goes goes back to like the Lenny Bruce error, yeah. When, when you know you could you could kind of completely free people out with a couple saying a couple for sure, yeah yeah for good or bad or prior yeah. Well, you you. You saw it with like Louis CK, K Right Lucy case under the microscope. Now that joke that he made about Parkland
is absolutely a Louis c k joke. If you followed him throughout his career, what was the joking and I'm sorry, the joke was. Why am I listening to these park? Land survivors? Why are you interesting? Because you push some fat kid in the way I see you're laughing right leg, that is a Louis CK joke he's saying something up: you're not supposed to say that is throughout his God damn career, he's done that that's what always done, but after the you know, jerking off in front of women all that stuff and him coming out and admitting it and then taking a bunch of time off now he's a target, he does something like that and they're. Like always all right right now like to know this. What he's always done right he's always taking this sort of Contrarian outside the box up but hilarious, take on things and that bit on because it was released by someone who made a Youtube video of it. He didn't get a chance to. He was gone for ten months and he'd only done a couple sets when he's fleshing these ideas out. I Gary
He would have turned that idea into a brilliant bit, but he never got the chance because it was just it was set out there in the wild when it was a baby. He was mauled down by wolves. It needed to be, right yeah. I mean that's what a bit of these bits they grow and they develop, and that was a controversial idea that we're supposed to think that someone is interesting, just 'cause. They survived a tragedy and his because, like no no no you're, not interesting right, you're, fucking, boring you're annoying get off my get off my tv and a lot of us have felt that way. Sure he just The way he said it was easy to take and put in out of context put it in quotes and turn him into Anasol. Well yeah. But that's what comedy is right it's taking what people the the thought that everybody has an vocalising vocalizing that thing that's forbidden in a way that people can kind of. You know come together
Rover right. I mean I think that was a lot of lot of what Richard Pryor assume it was about, like he took a lot of the sort of uncomfortable race problems right he's going to put them out there and we both white people and black people laughed at it. Yeah right like together, you know and that that was what was good about it. Yes, but if you can't, if, if people are afraid to vocalize, those things that they think it's going to. You know ruin their career mean. I guess you know that makes it more interesting right, it's more! It's more more high stakes, but if you can navigate those waters and get to the promised land the punchline it's even more rewarding, but you just have to explain yourself better. You have to have better points you have to have. You have to have a better structure, to your material where you eat the the people who may find your idea, objectionable they you is my call my hand, I'm going to take you through the woods we're going to be
Ok, follow me. An boom is not funny right right right, but you have to navigate it skillfully and you have to navigate it thoughtfully and you have to really have a point. You can have a half ask point, but you can't have a situation where it's fatal to be off by a little bit. I know it like that. There there was a a writer that I love growing up, so you're right, writer, name, Isaac, Babble, Stalin's up, shooting him home. He gave a speech about. I think it was nineteen, thirty six. You know to to a soviet writers collective, and he said you know, people say that we don't have as much freedom as we used to, but actually all of all that the you know, the the Communist Party is done as per is prevented us from writing. Sadly, the only thing that's out loud now is writing badly right and everybody laughed, but he was actually saying something pretty serious, which is that you can't write well, unless you can, you know screw up to you know. All on the way to being creative in a good way you have to miss. You know
and if missing is not allowed and there's high punishment for missing you're not going to get art you're not going to get revelation you're not going to get all these things and comedy is particularly important because you have to work it out in front of people. Absolutely yes I used to sit at a comedy club in and Manhattan when I was in call You know they would try out their material like on a Wednesday right early and that was always the most interesting time for me like there trying out this stuff out and a lot of it wasn't so good. But you know it was interesting right and you just can't have a situation where people feel like one wrong. Word is going to ruin their yeah you yeah, and it is there's also people that are wolves and they're trying.
Take out that little baby joke wandering through the what they they want? That feeling of being take able to take someone down right and that that's you know, that's you're, getting that now too, which is just and so now, because that there's like yonder bags at the improv on performing tonight. The these yonder bags have to put yourself on the back. When you go in there see can't record, saying, yonder bag gas? Is a company called yonder? It's just so strange. It's like all the shows I did with a pal. He uses yonder bags and I do This is to prevent people from filming and recording, and you know, and then eventually putting your stuff out there. Well, you know I'm kind of all, for that. I mean I've seen this with politicians on the campaign trail like they're, so tight now in ways that they used to not be what you saw. The Donald Trump thing: Donald Trump, Junior, word Trump Junior was they didn't want to do what they want him to do a q and a and he want to do it so they they booed him. The right wing, people uhhuh,
boom there yelling at Qa Qa 'cause? They want to be able to talk. Oh, I see it will say something to him, and these are people that were like far right. Far right people? They just didn't, think he was being right enough for who's playing the game wrong or he wasn't letting them complained to him right right, yeah, yeah, I know that's bad and and and politicians are are- are aware of that now and they're they're constantly, where the dirt there on film everywhere, and so there were. You know a thousand percent less interesting because yeah there there I mean, I remember covering campaign in two thousand and four- and I was I saw Dennis Kucinich, give a speech somewhere and he was going from, I think main to New Hampshire, and I certainly can I get a ride back to after look at your seat. You know takes me on the the van he looked takes a shoes off is a cracking job
and everything and like eating, udon, noodles or something political candidates would not do that now, right, they be afraid to be off the record with you right. You know right, right and, and they they're free to be around people and just behave like people. You know which is not good. I don't think it's the weirdest time ever to be a politician, because it's it's basically you've got this. One guy who made it through being huge really flawed and just going there, fuckin' locker room talk and it was like well yeah. It is locker room talk, I guess, and then it works and he gets through and he wins and so you've got him who seems like he's. So Greece, like nothing, sticks, dome, and then you have everyone else. Who's terrified of
the slight misstep yeah, totally and- and you can't replicate the way trap. Does this you know truck trump? Is he was born this way? There's like a thing going on in his head. Like he's, you know pathologically driven to behave in a certain way and he's not going to be powered by the way. You know people are resolution because he's doesn't think that way, no no he's, and but that's no one else is going to behave like that. What do you think about him and speed? What is included? Does he take speed? You mean yeah, so Did you ever see his speech after Super Tuesday yeah. That's the we was slurry Now there was always ramped up. He was very uh. I just watched that speech. You know we're not supposed to draw conclusions about, but you know what might be going on pharmacy We would somebody, but I would suggest watched, aren't Donald Trump's performance after the root results of the super Tuesday roll him in two thousand. Sixteen, let's hear some of the.
For some, the Chris Christie is hilarious. Hilary speech and she's talking about wages have been poor and everything's for everything's doing badly, but we're gonna make it she's been there for so long I mean if she hasn't straighten it out by now, she's not going to straighten it out in the next four years. It's just going to become worse and worse. She wants to make America whole again and I'm trying to figure it out, is that all of this isn't yeah. I mean it's, it's a I can look but yeah, but he he got he went on and on also that that that the Christie factor was really funny with that, because he was with him is to send back to go. What am I doing? What am I doing with my life? Let's face you literally, could see his brain wonder why the fuck did this happen? How is going to be the man like? How was the God Dam President? I was going to open for me. I could see it happening.
I saw him in in Ames Iowa, basically standing alone in the park waiting for people to try to shake his hand yeah. It was pretty bad. Like you see that, and but you do. You have a theory about Trump and speed yeah yeah yeah. I see monkeys on some stuff? I think. First of all I know so many journalists that are on speed. I know so many people that are on adderall and it's very effective. It gives you confidence. It gives you a delusional perspective. Like you get a delusional state of confidence, makes people think they can do anything. It's basically a low level math, it's very similar to methamphetamine chemically sure and people on it, tell me what it's like, because I haven't done it yeah I mean I done
speed too, I mean you know all those all those drugs are yeah that they're like baby baby speed, basically yeah. I know and you're absolutely right. I think people who it's not good for a writer, because writing is when these things were one of the most important things is being able to step back and and and ask him. I really my full should here. Is you know? I'm are my jokes as funny as I think they are like right. If, once that mechanism starts to go wrong, you know you're really lost yeah writer right because you're just you're not from an audience your with yourself in front of a computer. So I don't think, and the speed is a great drug. I mean you do get a lot of stuff done. So that's that's good, but but yeah. I know I think, there's a lot of people who are on it now and, and also a lot of this, because kids, not through school and they're on it? Yes, you know and they they get used to it. So I and I have kids- I wouldn't dream of giving giving them any of those drugs. You know, I think it's crazy yeah. I did too to see southern. I'm sure is
the Sudafed picture to right now. What was that Trump was sitting in his office eating a it? Was that famous photo? no worries like I love Hispanics or he's eating a taco bowl and trump tower. Behind him, is an open drawer in that open drawers boxes of Sudafed and Sudafed. Yeah I mean it gives you a low level buzz and the so I mean this is why I used to have to go to CVS to buy this stuff used to have to give your drivers. I guess you still do you have to give your drivers license 'cause. They want to make sure you're, not cooking meth in grapevine ten boxes of it at a time and cooking up a batch, if you're like in a in a in a hollering Kentucky and you go in and get twenty twenty boxes of Sudafed out pretty much people know what you're doing there yeah. That's really funny. So we had a bunch of Sudafed Vms yeah in his box, and there was that one reporter that was
first name again, who had a whole, he wrote a series of tweets which eventually wind up taking down by the way Jamie. I can't find those fucking tweets. He wrote a series, tweets that there was a very specific Duane Reade Pharmacy where Trump got amphetamines for something that was in quotes called a metabolic disorder, Kurt Eichenwald, fun fact, one thousand nine hundred and eighty two started? Taking amphetamine derivatives abuse them only supposed to take two for twenty? update, stayed on for eight years, really now the full set so yeah Kurt Eichenwald,
an interesting because he's written some really good books about finance. He wrote your book about Enron. He wrote a book about Prudential. It was really really good. Then, when I was starting out writing a Wall street I was like wow. These books are really incredibly well research, but he had some stuff in the in two thousand. Sixteen, where, like that's an example of something, as a reporter. I see that Michael. Where is that? Coming from you know and because you in journalism, you can't really accuse somebody of certain things unless it's backed up to the nth degree. So right he had a couple of things that I that I you know would be concerned about the ten. Leap. I don't know I mean look at it that that's on same stepped outside the journalistic boundaries of what you can absolutely proven, not prove it took a leap and that's why I think he took down the Duane Reade Pharmacy did take it down. Oh it's still there, as were there, was ok there is. There was a
the thing about a always get the milligrams per day. While, where is this from the I don't know, it doesn't show it or anything, but I believe he drug a soppy of it from someone or talk to the doctor. For drug was diethylpropion. Seventy five milligrams a day prescription filled Duane Reade on 57Th St Manhattan. Not that I know things so you know get the doctors name to doctor. Joseph Greenberg I counter with medical records, a White house admitted to Maine only a short time for diet that he took it he was not well. Ok, then that's fine. He said I countered with medical records they cut me off why yeah I mean you know. One thing I will say isn't in when you're when you're covering stories. Sometimes you hear things and- and you know, they're pretty solid, but you put you it's not quite reportable.
Because the person won't put their name on it or you know you're, not a hundred percent sure that the document is a real document, maybe a photocopy, and that that can be very, very tough reporters 'cause. They know something's true, but they they can't they can't and social media as a the barrier that we used to have we used to go through editors, in fact checkers and now you know you're on Twitter. You can just kind of you know right right right or you can hint at something. You know, and I I I think, that's that's something you don't want to get into is as a reporter too much yeah, that's a weird use of social media right! It's like service slippery, the escape from journalistic rules, yeah, exactly yeah, you know or or you can you can insinuates that somebody did x, Y and Z or you can you can you can use terms that are a little bit sloppy like you know again like it seems like they did admit. The
took that stuff for die. Yes, so if you have the the White House, if you know spokesperson saying that the he's a good for a short time for that and front, that's reportable store right, yeah yeah. Well, I think when people get into that shit, it's very hard for them to get out of that shift. That's uh! The speed train in many people hop on it it's got a lot of stops nobody seems to get off yeah, not not with their teeth intact. Right yeah. I know it's, that's that's not a Did you see how old he sold it doesn't exercise eat fast food? He gets so much fucking enerji. I mean people want to think he's this super person. You know, but maybe he's on speed maybe yeah? Maybe he just kind of collapsed turnover and collapse, and not maybe you can go a lot longer on speed than people. Think, maybe, if you just do it the right way, but isn't that kind of the way history always works? It's like again not to go back to the russian thing, but all the various terribly
here's a russia that they all died of natural causes when they're eighty five rate. Where is he here in in a country where people get murdered and die of industrial accidents in bad health? When they're, you know thirty, all the right right, but the worst people in the country make it a very old agent and die and their alcoholics, and maybe that's the thing right. Maybe maybe you know who has the worst diet in the world and maybe he's on speed and It's also your perception of how you interface with the world. Maybe it's because he's not this introspective it's really worried about how people see him and feel about him, maybe doesn't feel what it, whether it's so see, I the fear whatever it is? He doesn't feel the bad feelings get in there. Yeah and the state doesn't have the the stress impact right right, yeah, that's the thing about speed, apparently it because of the fact that it makes you feel delusion all and it makes you feel like you're the
and, like. I don't worry about what other people this losers. Who cares right right, yeah, the land? You know that was, why not buy Greenlee. Why not buy Greenland? That came out awesome what's wrong with that we bought Alaska, yeah yeah, we were supposed to give it back, but we it alaska Greenland would be a good place to scoop up, especially as things get warmer right exactly in the fucking tweet he made when he put the Trump Tower promise. Not to do this have a giant trump tower in the middle of Greenland. I was laughing my ass off my love or hate. That is whole areas to strolling skills, are our top, not very good. There is they're fantastic, how he knows, I'm a with people and when he starts to call people crazy or give him a nickname like it's so good because, like he, it sticks. Yes, I mean Mead, wants to see a Trump Biden race next year. Just for that reason, this is because the the abuse will be on board. I mean not the
encouraging that necessarily, but just as a spectacle, it's going to be unbelievable. You can tell that he. He is salivating at the idea of buying score you know I need to me- is like having a flashlight with a dying battery and going for a long hike in the woods. It is not going to work out, it's not gonna make it yeah. I know he's he's so faded. He you know he he has his moments on the campaign trail where he'll be speaking- and you know these guys do the same speech over and over again, so they can kind of do it. On cruise control, but every now and then hold the whole stopped in the middle of it and you eat. This. Look of terror comes over like where am I you know what town of my hand you know what he can he confused. He thought he was in Vermont when he was in New Hampshire, I'm sorry yeah, he was the. He got. Those states confused with what what's not to love about for Monty was New Hampshire. You know that that can happen
we, but it happens to him a lot but he's clearly old yeah. You know I mean he's not much older than Trump right, but he needs to get on the same pills. Yeah yeah. Actually, that would be interesting. We should get a go fund me to buy. Imagine that they just filled him up with steroids and just jacked him up with amphetamines and had it going after Trump. I really he needs something like that, whatever he's doing on the natches, not working right, yeah yeah, he's too tired needs a little bit of enhancement. It's not going to work if he, if he gets the nomination, the Democrats are Fuct. I just I don't see I don't see him. I don't see him with standing, the barrage to Trump is going to throw at him Trump's going to take him out like and took out Marvis Frazier he's got was a land line yeah it was a bomb. There was a bad fight, yeah going to be that kind of fight right is a bomb on him yeah. This is a chance. He can't stand that guy he doesn't know what she's to he's. Also too impressed with himself. Yes he's
to use the people deferring yeah like he thinks, like the things he says, makes sense and are cool and a profound when they're just bland, right. He just serving bad Meatloaf and he's like Tata. No, I like this is bad. Meatloaf yeah, that's how we got to be vice president. By being just, and enough? Yes right to get whatever constituency Obama was trying to get, but You saw that exchange when he he called Trump an existential threat earlier this year and Trump. Basically, he just went off on a new job. Joe's a dummy is not the guy he used to be like you know, yeah, that's going to be every day yep? You know in every minute of every day and then other people going to chime in because they love it. People love piling on. I don't yeah and his as fans all my God, the he's the ask. King, where people,
never had a representative before there's a lot of assholes out there like where's, my guy but then finally bam. Look at this area is Assehole made it to the White House Holy shit. I can be an asshole now, the president and, as he wants me to be an asshole lock, her up, lock where up yeah lock her up I totally call mean that that's going to wear on a guy. I mean if you been doing one of Trump's rally chance, yeah I can't wear a rubber nose and I've covered and and what they're like they're unbelievable for, so that the the the tee shirts are amazing. You know it like Trump. Twenty, twenty, your feelings, you know what I mean by Trump is the Punisher. You know it's like the Punisher Skull with a thing like It's amazing in the crowds it's like totally out of Idiocracy. Is there a punisher
skull with a trump wig on it, yeah yeah, oh, my goodness, I'm going have to get one of those. I mean he's. There's there. JP. No such a loud laugh. God, what a it's: a red, white and blue american flags Skull, punisher style with the trump trump we're gonna. So I saw that I need that sure I saw it wasn't the one red white and blue one. It was the blood every moment of black and I saw that on my god. I, unlike an eight year old kid Alright, it was a good mother with her little kids in the Trump Punisher Skull, but do they sell that shirt on Amazon can finally show I'm sure thing sold everywhere is now. Oh, my god. I know, God these fucking people. I mean
the merchants he is he's the most t shirt of a president history. I mean Trump, twenty slash, twenty grabbed by the pussy, we again like boy, I mean they like embrace that shit but the trolling aspect of all of it is like the fun part for his crowds, sure what they get off on is how how freaked out you know quote unquote draw audiences are by their appearance, their attitude and everything and they lean into it. You know what I mean, which is which is interesting, because you know that kind of, like group, camaraderie rodery thing that you don't really find that on and then the campaign trail the democratic side, it's different, it's a different vibe entirely, but yeah. It's crazy! Well, it's dumb and that's the thing that he sort of like captured. Is this place where you can be dumb, like it's fun, to be dumb and say: grab her by the pussy like everybody knows, that's kind of a dumb thing to say publicly course, but you could say it there, because he
yeah? You know build that wall build that Wall yay right like it's like it's this chance to like shut off any possibility of getting over like seventy rpm, like you were going to cut this shop at seventy. There's no high function here and cut it off at seventy, and just let it rip right, yeah, no totaly totaly and it's funny why you say that they all everybody knows it's a dumb thing to say right so like I would talk to people at the crowds, and you know I talked like a sixty five year old granny, other, and you say: do you agree with everything Trump says and like almost yes, they'll, say well. I wish he hadn't said this particular thing right, but they're all their channing. You know what I mean like they're all into it and the crowds are there so huge like, I was in Cincinnati and I was late,
one of his events, and I made the mistake that I couldn't drive in because they blocked off all the bridges. If you've ever been there right you I was in the Kentucky side, so I had to walk like three miles away in like walk over bridge, and I thought I was going to be be any person there and it was like something out of a Sci. Fi movie was just like a line of maggot hats like extending over. The bridge, although into Kentucky like a mile down the road I mean they had a turn with thousands of people to get into this event. It was it's incredible and that people that it's eat it was like, so or eighteen thousand it was the you know the I forget what they, what arena that is, it's the it's, the indoor one, the size of those places. He's the only one that can pull those kind of crowds period. Oh yeah, no, no one! No one can do that. You know Bernie and more in have had big crowds. Bernie had a he had a twenty five thousand. A person crowding in queens a couple weeks ago, you'll see crowds that big, but Trump's crowds are just dating back to two thousand sixteen. It is consistently huge effort,
everywhere and again. This goes back to before all reporter saw this and they also that Kip Hillary was having real. Herbal getting four and five thousand people into her events, and so we all you know we're all talking each other like that's got to be in it. The thing that's going to You know play a role in the election eventually, but nobody kind of brought it up or they explained it away. Well, I think they felt like if you discussed it and What it up that somehow or another. You got your contributing to Trump being the biggest to Trump winning rate, but that's a that's a fallacious way to look at it because covering up the reality of the situation, I think created a false sense of for Democrats sure they thought they were going to win by a landslide yeah. That's what everybody was saying, but it wasn't true. I mean there were certain. They were serious red flags throughout the campaign for Hillary and people. I think we're too afraid to to bring up a lot of the stuff because they didn't want to be seen as helping trump. But that's not what the business is about where
Not supposed to be helping facts? Don't have you know? Political indications were just supposed to tell you what we see How do you get journalism back on track? Is it possible at this point means. It is a lost art. Is it going to be like calligraphy, I mean I yeah like right now like like yeah, exactly japanese calligraphy right, you have to pass it down through masters, which is yeah. Maybe that's going to be internalism is like. I mean then there's there's there's two. It could happen. One is that like, if you created, something like neither side news right now right and just like it's that's a great name, yeah, like a network where it was a bunch of people who just kind of did the job without the editorializing. I think it would have. It would probably have a lot of follow. Right away, it would make money and nobody has clued into that yet like if some canny entrepreneur were to do that and that would bring back the business
that, or you know, journalism is always been kind of Kwanzaa subsidized in this country, you're, going back to the pony, express newspapers were carried free across the west right. The US postal service that that original nineteen, the communications ACT of nineteen, thirty four, the idea was it a week. You could lease the Public Airways, but you had to do something in the public interest. So you you, you could make money doing sports and entertainment, but you could take a loss on news, and so it was. Kind of because I subsidize no way, but it's not that doesn't exist anymore. There's no subsidy really for news anymore. I'm not honestly sure. I agree with that. That being the way to go, but there has to be something because right now the financial pressure to be bad is just too is too great. You know, there's no, there's! No, it's hard on this, but I day when I can't from the business when the
money started getting tighter. The first thing they got rid of where the long form investigative reporters like you couldn't just hire somebody to work on a story for three months anymore, because he needed them to do content all the time. Then they got rid of the fact checkers. You know which had another serious problem, you know, and and so now the money is so tight that you just have these people doing click bait all the time and they're not doing real reporting and so that they can that they have to fix the money problem. I know how How much is how changed recently, because like when that pc, the stuff that you wrote about the banking crisis was my favorite coverage of it and the the most relatable and understandable and the way you spelled everything out. Could you do that today? Yeah? But it would be harder because it's not that long. It really isn't it only. You know that was I really stop doing that in like two thousand and fourteen, or so I sort of five years out, but the big difference is a social medias had a huge impact on attention span
So I was writing like seven thousand word, articles about credit default swaps and stuff like that I was trying really hard to make it interesting for people. You know, use jokes and yeah number and stuff like that, but now people would not have the energy to to really fight through that you have to make it shorter, even tv. You know they people that you don't see that kind of reporting that in depth, you know kind of process reporting where you keep your teaching people something people just tune out right away, that they need just a quick hit, a headline in a couple of facts, so it yeah, there's a big problem with audience right, which we've trained audiences to consume the news differently and all they really want to get as a take. Now you know it's like the everything's like an ESPN hot, take writings. You know so that the counter. That, though, is this, what we're doing right now, with these are
Who is this long, ass conversations, their hours and hours long and there's a bunch of them right. Now. It's not like mine is an isolated one and there's so many podcast that cover and some of them cut cover them like in serial form like the dropout was out with. There was other call the yes, it was the drop out with the one about that woman who created that fake blood company. Yes right? Yeah Susan was your name Elizabeth. What is your name Elizabeth holds that's right: their nose, yeah, the completely fraudulent company That was an amazing podcast. Absolutely that if I read it you're right, I probably like boring- probably abandoned it earlier, but listening to it, podcast form. Listening to actual conversations from these people listening to people's interpretation,
these conversations listening to people that were there at the time telling you know stories about when they knew things were weird when they noticing these. They there's like tests that were incorrect, that they were covering up I should like you can do that now with something like this, and I think that one of the good things about cast. Two is you don't need anybody to tell you that you could. You could publish this yet Absolutely absolutely. I think you're right- and I think the formats like this review, that the news companies are wrong about about some things:
audiences like they. They think that people can handle an in depth discussion about things. They think that audiences only want to watch thirty seconds of something they don't they're they're interested they they. They do have curiosity about things. It's just it's very difficult to can convince people in the news business, especially to take chances on that kind of content. You know they'll, do it for a podcast will do it for a documentary, but but for for the news they just that they're, making things shorter and shorter and shorter. You know I was really lucky to have an editor who you know so understood the idea that we have to get into this and in depth. Also, it's going to be meaningless. The price right. That's pretty rare! You know
for the most part they you don't see them taking that kind of bet anymore, but maybe podcasts will help people punk puncture that, but the flip side of that is that they're not they're, not investing in stuff, like like international news in the way they used to like. When I came up in the business every bureau, every big network had bureaus in every major city around the world. You know Rome, Berlin, Moscow, whatever it is right and they had newsrooms full of people who are out there gathering news now, there's none of that right because they figured out they can make the money just as easilly, by having somebody sitting in an office in Washington or New York,. And just you know, link to something and have it take on something you know, so I think the news is getting worse. Podcasts are getting more interesting, maybe maybe there's a happy medium. They can find
well documentaries as well. Documentaries are commercially viable of its great subject like com, a good good examples that wild wild country. One word you know: I didn't even know that that call existed I've, no idea what happened up there and then so this documentary, sheds light on it does it over like. I think it was like six episode. Or something like that and looking amazing, and it made a shit ton of money, yet making a murder, was another one. That was really good, like the you take, because that's something that happens all over the place. You have these criminal justice cases in there. The young terrible injustices happen in so, if you, she really tell the whole story and make characters. Other people invest the time and yeah I was to tell tell it: will people still like really good storytelling but the? But I think within the news business they just they have this belief. They're hard, headed, believe that people can't
and all difficult material, and I don't know why that is no yeah. I don't know why it is either it's I mean, I think, there's a large number of people that aren't satisfied, intellectually by a lot of the stuff they're being spoon FED and they think that, because This is the the vast majority of things that are commercially viable. Are short attention span things? I think that's like this real sloppy thinking non risk. Taking way of thinking that, like was- and this is how people consume things- you got to give them like a music video style, editing or they just tune out, but there's always been a thirst for actual long form. Conversations yeah, you don't an actual real in depth. Exploration of something in a in a very digestible way like one of the good things about doing your podcast for this podcast any podcast. Really you can listen to it while commuting you listen to it and it will actually give you
something that occupies your mind, an interest you during what would normally be dead time right and your read about the the the thirst for something else. Now and again, I think when people turn on most news products. Third they're getting this predictable set of things and not doesn't quench the thirst for them. They're, not they're, not being challenged in anyway, they're, not seeing different sides of of of a topic here, you're, not approaching, covering the subject honestly by genuinely you know, exploring the idea that so that people, you may have thought were bad or right or people you meet are good are wrong. It's just all predictable, so I think people are fleeing to other things. Now all right, they just they they want. They want to just get the story. They don't they don't want to have a whole lot of. You know the editorializing on top of it, you know
and yeah in, and they did. I think also there's a lot of underestimating of audiences going out there and like we. We just think that they can handle stuff in the can yeah they're they're they're interested, but we we we just take it for granted that they can't do it. Maybe I'm guilty of that too. You know, because I'm I'm doing this for so long, but but yeah it it. It does happen, I don't think people change that much. Yes, no pro, probably probably not its system. It's just difficulty note on. Maybe maybe it's also. We don't have the the stamina to to stick with the story in the same way that we used to like now. If the store doesn't get a million hits right away, we don't we don't return to the subject. Mmhm. You know you think about stores like Watergate liquid when modern bursting first did those stories, they were complete, duds likely everybody thought they were on the wrong path. They were the only people who were covering it and a lot of those stories.
Flailed around. You know what I mean they didn't get the big response, and it wasn't until much later that it became this hot thing that everybody was watching and you wouldn't sub. So that wouldn't happen. Now, right, like in front of reporters, were on a story if it didn't catch fire within the first couple of of a passes Your editor is probably going. Take you off it now. What was that story? The New York Times worked on about Trump and they worked on it for a long time and it was released and went in and now the new cycle. In a matter of days, nobody gave a food yeah with the one about his finances. Yes, and it was like a thirty six thousand words story. It was like unbelievable it we will there's like six times as big as any is the biggest story of ever in my life. They thought was a giant, take down right, yeah and it was it your. It was like a thirty six hour thing if that right and and maybe maybe
yeah and people kind of settled in this is amazing. It's got all this information in it and it just fell flat. You know, and that's and the important thing about that. Is that news companies see this and they say wow. We yes it all this time and money. We put our really good reporters on this, give them six months to work on something and it got the same amount of hits. As you know, some sorry about you know a carp with a human face that was filmed. In China. You know what I mean like some something that we you know. We picked up the wires and stuck it in in page eleven, whatever it was so then that's what that tells and the and the incentives now are: let's not bother, let's, let's not do six months, invest investigations of anything anymore because what's the point, we're gonna get as many hits doing something dumb right now, so they just don't take the risk anymore. God, it's so crazy to die. It's the incentive now that it's all clicks. It's such a strange trap to fall into
and there's also the other thing, which is the litigation problem and this is another thing I wrote in the book is that there was a series of cases in the in the 80s and 90s, where reporters kind of took on big companies and I'm at the Chiquita banana thing that the Cincinnati Enquirer did you remember the movie, the the insider up, Brian Williams, service back oh company, CBS right there was another one with Monsanto in Florida, where some Fox reporters went after Monsanto and they so they all got sued and it costs their companies a ton of money, an reputational risk. And so after that, what news company said is why take on a big company that can fight back and throw a lawsuit at us, Anne. What do we win by that? We're not going to get more audience from that? You know so now watch consumer reporting. You know, like a small
tv station. Usually it's they're gonna bang on some little chinese restaurant that has roaches or something like that. They're not going to go after months and over or were you know, Chiquita banana, because there's no point they do it. It's too much of a risk. So they just don't. Do it and that's another thing. That's what's gone wrong with reporting. You know they. They dave the economic benefit of going after powerful adversary. Isn't there anymore? So they don't do it and not. That's a that's, a problem that clearly you've seen a giant change in journalism from when you first started to where we are now. Do you have any fears or concerns about the future? Over the mean, this is what you do for a living. What what is your? What are your thoughts on where you think it's going, I mean I'm really worried about it because um, because you need
food journalists to kind of exist apart from politics and to be a check on everything. I think that the whole idea of having a fourth the state is that it's separate from the political parties right. You know, I mean I don't work for the Dnc. It's not my job to write bad news about Donald Trump right, that's the Dnc's job. You know they. They they put out press releases about them, and if people see s as in as being indistinguishable from political parties are being all editorial, then we don't have any power anymore. Look, that's that's the first thing that the press doesn't have any any ability to influence people if people don't see us as independent and truthful and all those things, and so that's what I really worry about right now is like people won't, will stop listening to the media at all still Tunis
now they don't trust us anymore and, like Walter Cronkite from nineteen, seventy two, the Gallup Poll Agency, found that he was the most trusted man in America, and that was true also in one thousand nine hundred and eighty five like for thirteen consecutive years, he was the most trusted with there's no reporter in America. Who is the president? the man in America Raising says yeah I would do it doesn't yeah exactly so people. Think of us as clowns, and you know, entertainment figures, and so how are you gonna? How are you going to impact the world if people think you're a joke? You know and and that's why? That's what I really worry about. We don't have any institutional self respect anymore and no, we don't. We don't feel like we have to you, know child challenge, audiences challenge, challenge powerful people, you know it's just a bunch of talking points, and that's that's not what the business is about. So I worry about it and you know
There are a lot of journalists to say the same thing we all kind of talked him talk amongst ourselves, which is you know the the the the job as we knew it is kind of being phased out and changed into something else, and and that's not the that's, not a good thing. You know because people do need to in in tough times, people need need the press, and you know as ridiculous as that sounds now, because, but it's true and I don't know over we're where we go from here. Legitimate journalism is so important, it's so important. It's the only way you really find out. What's going on right only way right, you're not gonna, find out through the depictions of the people that were acts Lee involved in and they want you to see it a certain way. You you're, Can you find out from people that have the financial incentive? and given you a specific narrative, you need journalism yeah, so hard to find. I think it's one of the reasons why we're so lost Austin. One of the more insidious aspects of the term fake news, 'cause God, damn that so easy to throw around it's
it's so easy to call someone a big. It's so easy to call someone a racist and it's so easy to say, fake news, and all that I have the same sort of a fact. They just diminish anything that you have to say almost instantaneously, totally and and the the fears went when You can cast. The entire news is being fake. People can tune. Now, but a lot of that has to do with it, but who is doing the news reading now right like in 60s and 70s, maybe before report there's, a lot of them came from the middle and lower classes like the they were. It was. The job was originally kind of like being uh,
right away. What was more of a trade than a profession, and so you had a lot of people who who went into the job, and they had this kind of attitude of just wanted to stick it to the man you know like they, the they didn't want to be close to power. They want to take it on the black Seymour Hersh right like if you, you see the kind of personality who just wants to take the truth and rub it in somebody's face. But then, after all the president's men, it became the sexy thing to be a journalist, and you solve a lot of people from my generation who went into journalism because they wanted to be close to politicians and hang out with them who kinda like the primary color. This thing right where you see people who who they just want to have a beer with the with the presidential candidate? And that's totally different from what it used to be like now, so now we're
the wrong side of the rope line. Houston, I'm saying like we're like we used. We used to be outside of power like taking it on and now we're kind of scene were were more upper class in in in the press and we're we're kind of in bed with the same people were supposed to be covering, and that's that's not a good thing. P. One people see that the the the you know. That's that's one of the reasons why they said they call us fake news is because they they see us is doing pr. For you know, rich people one of my favorite books ever about politics, is fear and loathing on the campaign. Yeah and I wrote the introduction of that. What you had left the last. The last edition of the that rate is book. Yeah, it's a fantastic book and it's a good. Great example of someone who knew that they weren't a part of that system, so they could talk about it as an outside he knew he was going to be covering it for a year went in guns, blazing got everybody up drinking on the bus. Making and all of them yeah yeah, and he says that in the book he's like he's like look, this isn't my beat. I don't
any friends I have to keep you know yeah, so I'm going to you everything that that I see yeah and it and and that's that's a real problem in reporting when you, when you have you're gonna, beat for too long. You end up have developing on health, healthy relationships with sources, and you end up in a position where you're not going to burn the people who are dependent on to get your information and when that happens, to reporters like, I think, that's one of the reasons is good too the kind of cycle through different topics over the course of your career. He, if you get stuck in the same same, beat too long eventually that you fall into that trap. The Thompson, of course, never did that, like every story that he covered was he let it all hang out and just said whatever the hell it, he thought and you know they let the chips fall where they
and that's kind of the way you can do that all the time. Probably, but I think that's the thing I was great, it was amazing and there's no other examples of it. Now. No time like that, yeah yeah I mean that book was so great and so on so many levels like he I I always thought of as being also kind of like a novel, because it's it it's this story about this in person who's like obsessed with finding meaning in truth, but he he got. He goes to the most fake place on earth, which is the campaign trail. We have to look for it and so all these depictions of all these terrible lying people- they're just so hilarious and and- and so it's kind of you know it's almost like a Franz Kafka novel to me- yeah amazing, and then it's it's great journalism. At the same time like it's time you how the system works and how how elections work, and it's really valuable for that so yeah. That was brilliant. He also changed a lot. I mean he actually affected. Politicians like they should the did with at
ascii that was fantastic but he's on the Dick Cavett show, and Dick Cavett asked him about it. He goes well. There was a rumor that he was on. I began started that rumor I mean it says he like literally that he got in that guys head. Oh yeah, I remember he put that picture of Muskie and he just found a picture of muskie and it's he's basically working like that.
Yes, the caption is Muskie in the throes of an ibogaine friends right and you can get really get away with that. Now like he does, he does you know, so it's a crazy drug to choose to because the drug, the gets you off addiction right, yeah, exactly what a more hilarious aspects of his choice, but it sounded great yeah. I was always and all that stuff resilient, which dog yeah. It was fantastic, yeah, so good yeah, but you know that that that kind of stuff, probably wouldn't go over all that well right now get sued yeah, but the that it. Also. He had this very, very sort of uh S characterizing way of looking at politics and and politicians that. Wouldn't go over that well now, either like people don't want you to rip on the process as much as he did not book. So it was great. It was just looking fantastic book yeah. I mean he had a
a bunch of them that were great, but that one particularly it's you can sort of redo it. You could re read it every time we get to an election cycle sort of like because of you. He you know. These are these repeating cycles This is just like the the same that he was dealing with and you know of various different forms. You can see it all today, even and it's funny. The reporters everybody's read that book everybody covers can campaigns. You know I'm on my fifth right now, for for a long stone like I had to have his old job and everybody has read that book and so they're. They unconsciously try to make the same characters in each election cycle. So there's always like a Christ like Mcgovern figure, There's a you know: a turncoat quisling, spineless musky figure, there's the
the the villain Nixon, a trumpet trump kind of fills that role for a lot of reporters now and then they all lot try to behave in the same way that their characters behaved in that book. So you remember Frank: Mankiewicz was, was Mcgovern's sort of handler an he was having beers with Thompson after the events and kind of strategizing with him reporters try to do that. They all try to do with the candidates and their handlers. Now they try to develop those same relationships. It's just interesting. It's like they're, really reliving the book. You know that's a Prob with someone, that's really good, you know only they take on so many imitators or so many imitators take on their demeanor their thought process like and Hunter was just such an iconic version of a writer, but it's it's so difficult if you're a fan of his to not want to be like that car only a man, I know I know that, especially
Doesn't I'm writing for the same magazine covering love the same topics? You have to immediately realize that you can't do what he did like he. He tosses reading was incredibly ambitious and, and you he he was using a lot of the same techniques that the great fiction writers use like he was creating. All like this four dimensional know story, but at the same time was also journalism. Thank you. You can't really most people couldn't get away with that. You have to be a great great writer, I'm I'm talking like over her rare mark TWAIN level, yeah talent, to really to to do what he did, which is kind of mix the you know the the ambition of great fiction with with journalism. So if you try to do the stuff, it's going to be terrible and I've done I've. Certainly, if you look go back and look at my red you'll find a lot of like Shity Thompson imitation,
and, and so I I learned to not do that pretty early, but the yeah. I know you it's one of those. Don't try this at home things for young writers, if you can, if you can avoid that first Do you have any do you have any hope Does it or anything that you look too we go. Maybe this is going to be where this turns around in terms of journalism and turn of like yes, I mean, I think, I mean? Oddly enough, I think you're you know shot shows like yours and and the kind of public proliferation of like what you're talking about with with podcasts the great thing about the internet. There are lots of bad things, but the great about it is that it's given
provided a way for people to just have an audience if they're good right, if in and if people have a demand for it, they're going to be there, there's a man to man for it. You can exist, you you can have a platform and, and so that's what I think is going to happen is that people are going to crack the code of what what kind of journalism people want and they're they're going to create something that people are going to flock to, and I don't have a lot of faith that CBS Msnbc Abc Cnn, that they're going to figure it out, like. I think it's going to be some independent kind of voice that is going to come up with something a new formula and people are that is going to rise up. You know, I mean you, give you seen it a little bit with things like the young Turks. You know, although their you know their change, if she
changed a little bit, but they figured out that if you provide something it's an alternative from the usual thing that you can you can you can get a viable functioning business a lot faster than you used to be able to? What do you mean by they changed? You know, I I think you know they've they've kind of become a little bit more in the direction of a traditional news organization than they were originally. Maybe I don't know I don't watch. I don't watch it as much as I used too. So maybe I shouldn't say that. But but you know again the ability to do that is a lot different than it used to be like in order in order to have an independent journalism out. What used to have to look, for instance, put out your own newspaper, which do you do your own distribution, Dion, printing, to your own design, all this of cost a ton of money, and it was very, very hard to do without big corporate sponsors. Now you know now anybody with a good.
Idea can can pretty much. You know do something an I have it, so I have a lot of hope that somebody's going to figure it out it just it just were not there yet. I agree with you, I'm optimistic. I have a lot of hope too, but I'm always like walk once hurry up already yeah. I know I know, and it's just until we get there, the remnants of the old system of media they're. Just you know it's just so tough to watch flailing flailing. They don't really know what to do with a ticket. The kind of caught between just purely chasing the money and trying to adhere to what they thought the news look like in the past, so it's like not entertaining. No, if they were just chasing the money, if they just come up organically today, they would have had a different product entirely, but they're trying to sound like legitimate news, but they're also completely selling out at the same time, and it is just not working, you know, yeah and so yeah, we'll we'll we'll see worse, we'll see were
that goes, but it's it's we're not here right. There flailing right now! Well, Matt Ivy! I appreciate you, man thanks a lot Charlie. Do it, so he wanted to talk to you. No likewise, your book tell people hating, consult, called hey Dink, its Bio are books. It's out it's out now you can buy it on Amazon, an my podcast is called useful idiots and with katekatiehalperrollingstone dot com. So you want check out once a week thank you. Thank you, everybody. Thank you. Every run for tune into the show. An thank you too our sponsors. Thank you. Casper mattresses, dope, mattress. Without one hundred night risk free. Sleep on a trial. You get one hundred dollars. Tord select mattresses by visiting Casper. Dot com, Slash Rogan and using the code. Rogan at checkout terms and conditions apply. Thank
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Transcript generated on 2019-11-17.