Kermit Pattison is a journalist whose work has appeared in the New York Times, GQ, Fast Company, Runners World, and many other publications. His new book, Fossil Men: The Quest for the Oldest Skeleton and the Origins of Humankind, is available now. https://www.harpercollins.com/products/fossil-men-kermit-pattison?variant=32117911748642
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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in the origins of mankind and it's about a skeleton they discovered and ninety. Ninety four, that is more than a million years older than Lucy, who is the oldest previous skeleton that they had found in the past, is fascinating shit. It's all about the history of the human species, and I really enjoyed talking to him the book as fossil man, his name is Kermit. Patterson will gain experience thanks for doing this, man really prepared, I'm very, very fascinated by the subject. Thank you for having it's great to be so. This is a a long journey for you to have written a book and be to be involved in this project? Can you talk us through how you got involved in this
sure it was completely unintentional. I had started off working on a different book on the evolution of human locomotion, and I mean just as an aside humans are weird prime. It's a lot of ways about one way were weird is just we were slow were weak, but we have this ability to walk in long distances, which is kind of unique. I thought okay, I mean I'm not certain lot of other people have noted that before But as far as I was concerned, no one really written the deep history of that. So I was going to go sort of investigate the the answer. Ology of where this weird human capacity, Cambridge And you don't so I thought, The early human history like Artie would be this a little sliver of background before I got to the interesting stuff
but anyway started. Reading the already papers and they kind of under cut allow the things that I had. Research community had taken for granted or is challenged and lets and down so anyway started talking to people on the already team and and then they can tell me about you. they all sounds very interesting and then so either gable. Malaria, maybe it'll, be a page to more than a little line. and you know little by little more as five pages that actually this is a whole chapter. Now this three chapters, others. This is at some point out this agonizing time of reappraisal. I said you know what this is much better than the act. story- I was working on. Ah I mean this is the discovery that is has been announced the world, but it hasn't really been described in deed. And it's interesting a whole
number of different levels- I mean there's the anatomy of exploring the natural history the human body literally from head to toe, because the skeleton was so remarkably complete, they skull, they had hands, they had feet the hands and feet were almost complete, which is unheard of. I mean you're lucky to find any skeleton at this age and to get something. That's it Complete is really unused, Amazonia, their other parts they started to, but so it serve came away to start to tackle this interest. I had and lighted the natural history of the human body and human biology class with science. And then the age discovery story. sure adventure story was just astounding to me when I started talking to the field cruel, particular and hearing about how they all the challenges in the field- oh my god, I mean this is like collision of cod. Tourism, ethiopian desert, Jelly agents that our people,
in the Highland Theo and then the far on the Americans, Japanese, you don't company end and all meeting and that any additional meetings were not pregnant. You know that me got guys coming out afar, I'm coming out of guns and secular, get the hell out of here and so that parties- asked adding the drama of discovery and his bullets flying. Overhead and there's this excitement of finding one little piece and another little piece them in any way to make a long story short, I gonna stumbled on this and every time I turn over Iraq, there was something interesting, and then got in a more interesting once this whole so that kind of moved into the lab, because ah there's an old cliche in and in the science and not as it's not so much what you find. It's what you find out. So, in other words, when you find- and a skeleton or something like that the truth is that it contains a scientific revelations are immediately evident.
Look at the skeletons, as you know, this better than any of the burmese people spend years during this thing measuring thinking about so there was also that other detective story that sort of followed the field. This lab detect story. That sort of followed Feel detective story that long and then and of course, when this thing funding was really the world. There was this again another clash in this time, a clash in the world in academia about people? taking issue with the interpretation or deny its importance or trying to, hi to bury the skeleton again, if you will you inattention and then denial so anyway, long story short. I just it. I didn't set out to do this by the distorted dawned on me that this was like a huge science. If saga that work, still mostly on top. We should feel be blunt exactly what we're talking about so we're talking about a skeleton that was discovered.
That is one point: two million years older than Lucy, so arrest galloping is yet four point: four million years old, they all had known the human relative. Well, it's the oldest known skeleton didn't. Actually. This is ok, Portance distinction should make so like us before skeletons are rare. this is the oldest skeleton there are. Three other members, of the human family that are older. But the thing is there are much more amateur they're, not anywhere near as complete, like there's one Another one movie found in the same team that found the skeleton we're talking about. That's some teeth in our I can tell bow and a few other broken elements of the skeleton there's another thing
other species cholera from Kenya, which is about six million years old again in a much more fragmentary, some teeth about it, they got a couple of them, die bones partial. Bones and Anders Skull from Chad? called style anthropic us that's about six million, maybe seven years old, depending on whose dating you believe and that's that's a very nice skull, but its ahead without body. So right south, so they went so there are people sometimes get confused by the Socrates is indeed the oldest skeleton, its by far more complete than this other stuff. But there are some in a fragmentary things that are older and there they all become part of the story do in wood. Is that what is the scientific controversy? Do you think it's? It is based on real scepticism or is ego involved in this life and dig it up that it's not a fortunate man, eater scientist of Data,
yeah gas and oil a lot of you always involve science. Unfortunately, right at this there's a lot of Vigo there's a lot of disbelief, because there The skeleton was so surprising, a lot of ways and so contrary to the predictions many people inside had made there was a kind of like a kid. I had exploded for a lot of people. Susan wide break down those particular things that are different than what we expected right. First of all, I walked up right, yeah sell it. Right, so it it's primitive. I mean, if you saw it if we could back in time, machine and look at it in this. This thing on this, his name is artifice remedies, that's gotta mouth. my party is the individual skeleton that they found. Is this the only individual like like your job you're, the individual and your species at homo sapiens. That's how you think about this arctic pythagorean.
Amethysts issues already the individual skeleton. So So the interesting revelations with it is. It has a bright pastor, so its standing up right, but it still got the possible toe So this is a creature that was in the trees in clearly climbing, but also up now appears to be upright walking with the support tat, so it has seen it in What knows that, sometimes deep in human past, there was some kind of a boil ancestor some kind of eight, but The other question has always been what what what kind of aid It looked like a modern eight or does it look like you know something we ve never seen before, and so this surprising thing about already is actually quite different than the living apes. So yes,
Is it possible to walks up right by the proportions? Might chimps have shorter legs than they have arms, as artes proportion similar to that Don't you already, I mean a certain more apelike. Then then, then- than any of us, but it there's a couple interesting things about it. So all the other living apes have longer arms than they do legs. There's a lot of time, climbing nuts I ain't long, the different proportions, but they all had that common. They got longer forelimbs than highlands already was a big surprise because it actually had longer legs than for the summit. It definitely bigger hands as longer arms than we do, but it that was a surprise at least was to me and I think, to suffer be some of the researchers and I was talking before about these kind of
surprises that appear after the fact, well that that was one because the bones are broken. Skies on this research team. It's called them the Middle Eyewash research project LISA last time you reconstructing this and then estimating and how well the legs of the pieces are not there and then run all kinds of regression, let it calculations and stuff, but so. that regulation, what sort of a delayed delayed bombshell Few well directory had he's Limburg. Dozens of never more like a bible, and so our Our legs are longer. Chimps have longer arms, so is this like? Does it have almost equal length, arms and legs? like, I just put a photo of it up here on getting a chance to take a look at the fascinating, so it has long legs. Almost like a perversion longer arms. Then we do yeah yeah.
Longer I'm somebody effect for sure. I think I have the exact them, but I think the calculation and enemies and legs are- I think I think the arms I want to say like night. Ninety, some percent, so it's pretty close to one to one of length, but indeed there arms. Are the shore so the surprising part? Was it didn't walk at all on its knuckles, being that it was that old yeah, so so they get so humans. Are we come from the african exports? clear from genetics has been clear for a long time. the two main groups of african apes there's guerrillas and there's chips,
now within those ships also includes other species. You might have heard a call bonobos and now within those there's like debate about announcing divide them into sums, sub species and stop it. You know I don't worry about that from happening, what they are common. Is there not a walk We got these long fingers and when they walk in them- and they do this, and if you look at a video sometime, you'll see it, and because our two closest cousins both do that there was a perfectly plausible theories that human answer Did it works and we are evolved from another walking ancestor among those, even conversely, the nature that at the time, the deadline was all almost that humans evolved from another walking answers so yes- and I was was the theory and then so here with already, we have a creature. That's you know it's not the
last common ancestor with the african Apes buddy it's instantly getting closer, it's getting a big step closer and the people damage to specialise in these things say that there's like no hint of knock awoken. Not not only was it not a walking to get around, but also it has no vessel judge of aid, Knocker walking ancestry, so in other words this like residual anatomy. That would suggest that than ever So it was by people from the very early days. Very, very early days of just resolutely have other species evolution. Well, it isn't it Peter and all Euro is but that at that, at that, for a four point, or million your own window right and that now what I was before that is secular. I mean it's gonna be the people to do this in the Ets entails
speculation, obviously, but I dont know what you have found and so on, it out now, the debate about just How long ago the last communist districts of humans jumps lived, it's probably at least in our anymore. One point: five million years before already two renal. Some estimates put it even further back than that, so that these, there's another school thought, that's kind of emerge that says still could be a knock, a walking ancestor that gave rise. to humans and already, but it just all the stuff by the time you gotTA darted Amer. That's that's gonna counter that we can get more into that You don't want to get too Aragon, you, but, but it seems so fascinated it has these really long arms, but that there's no evidence.
whatsoever of not only knuckle walking in that species, but knuckle walking as an ancestry. And that that blew the mind of a lot of people and then there's there's a school of thought. of critic out there, a sort of so this thing was announced in two thousand nine at enough surprised when I discovered was discovered, die, was discovered The skeleton itself was discovered and ninety ninety four and how Andy discovered what I can short answerer long long long straight, and I like it. I wanna hear the whole thing I'll. Take you back to the digital beginning of how, like the whole, detect story was well trained, and that is if, if you want me to speed up just now, no no. This is all about deciding what you say: I want you to have air. This group went Ethiopia.
And they started doing this work in four first, when I M an expedition Ethiopia, nineteen- a one for this purpose of looking for a man the other day. I've been there looking for fossils, and then they are actually I mean they found this falsehood, but they found a lot of other stuff too and like all up and down the timeline accumulate. Evolutions have stemmed some stuff, that's like recent, unlike arm in arm. in the border, hundreds of thousands of years ago, just stuff, that's like six in getting near enough. Six million years ago, these rang us talking about earlier so that they have research agenda is as broad it's like. What can we find about human level? but if we want the bird big burning research, questions at the time was what came for losing. Now you ve, probably heard about Lucy Lucy was discovered anything in nineteen. Seventy four
covered by a guy named Don your american guy with his assistant, a guy named Tom Gregg they find thing. It turns out to be a skeleton. It's three point. Two million years old it probably problem It's better to the best known human asked mister made people who Nothing else about human origins. Will at least recognise the name Lucy and there's a lot of reasons for that in terms of out publicized in an answer, so our body for the, and it wasn't Lucy, also controversial its ITALY any discovery in this feels controversial. So these are these. Are these? Are people all in our hands, the great where did the identity, politics, the paleo dowdy politics of humanity, so there is no. There is no easy consensus
in this field. So anyway, loosely is discovered. She's three point two million is all mean that this is an acute revelation at the time because she was like already a skeleton. And it took you now that the figure of the scale to that point was a neanderthal which was less than a million years old. So this was like a big deal, something this all the way that they know that studied arm is popular books, written about it, etc, etc. Ah, from, like the nineteen seventies into their early eighties. That's the time Lucy was sort of being intensely studied and revealed to the world. Ok, so meanwhile Ethiopia ah going into this period of turmoil. So this this one The big elements in this story is the difficulty of doing this kind of work in a place like Ethiopia. So
right around the time that the Lucy was discovered the ancient monarchy in Ethiopia, headed by the last ampere hailing Selassie fell it like two thousand year old monarchy in our like traces, it roadster difficult times it out and are in a play. Was to be the descendants of king Solomon and Queen Sheba Middle aged ancient monarchy, but I haven't really modernized and then it was toppled by student. I the military this whole time, Kalisz that wanted to modernize the well happens is a the power is seized by the military. a marxist dictatorship, easier the others longtime ally of Americans Why shift the soviet bloc? And now it's like a frontier of the cold war? Suddenly, like you know
the Americans, the Europeans, who work on a welcomed as far as research. Before now viewed with hostility, boy thinking now you a CIA agents, Tina Research, kindness shuts down for a number of years, because it just becomes too dangerous. Meanwhile, there's like the tribal warfare happening in the desert with doing stuff like this before, nineteen. Eighty one things of calm down enough that research team is able to go back and, they go and they have acquired a new project area. It's like the size and Rhode Island and it in that product area. There's all kinds of that, like the layer cake tie, you know it amidst policy depends on geology, ok, so like this layer cake time. You know we have things. Are you don't want me two million years all amendment, giving a very simple mile here and this project
He has really valuable because its sprawling area, but they have all these different time here- its exposed, so where does rocks from a million years old is rocks. There are more than in all the six million mile up and down the timeline. Humor Lucian, so these guys go there and they see this. Why should they say wholly crap? This plate is like it. It's it's it's gold mine, it's a gold mine, was spread out. All rules based, I mean you and weakens we can learn so much about human evolution, We descend all these years study announcing. So then, unfortunately, these, spend one season here and just doing car reconnaissance to see. What's there then Ethiopia, the shuts down again the government says. Basically put hall to research, As you know, they want to rewrite.
Their antiquities laws, so they can better control. These foreigners were coming to look at the stuff and they say ok will hopefully will that you back next year. Anyway, it takes it takes nine years before they can on research, So finally, steam goes back and nineteen ninety and starting to go, find things learn more about this area and that they have the project And finally, ninety ninety two find a first tubes of what becomes the species of order. Biscuits at that point at that point did not dare not expecting to find a skeleton, because like that's like hoping. You gonna win the lottery tomorrow right, you buy a ticket xaviera younger than when the latter, yeah sure yeah, so they find a tooth and then they start finding these pieces. and you know why
kilometers after kilometers day after day and then find you know a few more elements and overcome a couple years. They collect enough to realise, that this is a new species. Ah, this is something there. But at this point it is like few teeth. In our view, bone fragments stuff but another ninety, ninety four, they the skeleton and that's kind of an interesting piece to because this kind of against all odds- and I can tell you that happened if your interested for yeah lived here, so anyway, there there there walking along and introduce some of the characters here, so the cowardly like a movie by the way the way everybody lays out here we have a document The personality about our mentioned, some of them. Ok, so one of the guys who starts and nineteen eighty one is a young weapon.
and he went about his name. Is TIM White he's a anthropologist from university? California, Berkeley he's a guy. From the American where's it's very hard. Charging strong willed guy Dominum Profane, cycle acknowledge and everyone who works with them water? here that he is probably the most intense fossil hunter, who they ve ever ever met. That's that's him! would be the centre of our movie he'll be their russian floored character, he would he would. He would tell you that, like it's ridiculous to compared to her for it, is that complete bullshit, because he is a He is famously sceptical. Either he's a relentless killer of ideas. You know, I mean he's, got this encyclopaedic knowledge and he's got it, hair trigger bullshit detector and that's my lot of people are afraid of him,
also very, very exacting in the field, and- and you know it oh when they realise that there is the dense? Ah they start making a pickup. Fossils He organizers people to basically crawl in our hands and knees in these areas. He lays down like these lines in the Fossil rich areas either carve you now lines in the sand with his walking. War, he sometimes put down ropes and it's like in a joke. Your job is to walk shoulder to shoulder. Next to you ever all tat. You are just going to crawl the space and these and you're gonna pick up every damn thing you see even you think it's Iraq put it in there, but it can't because we're not gonna know for sure. Do we get and look at it more closely and and and they went so so he's one guy he's in others, a team, organ donation.
another character in this whole thing is one of teams students, a guy named bright ass, far whose ethiopian and he I mean it's interesting backstory with with brownie. He had not been a student, in the time of the revolution and like a lot of other students, he was swept up and they all politics reform movement like a lot of other students. He was horrified to see What happened when the military dictatorship came in, he was arrested. He was put in jail. He was tortured here, was lucky to survive. he told me he wanted to prison on a chain gang would like seven other guys em. When he's released two years, six months later, there's only two guys alive. This is that generation and they know the suffering that Ethiopia went through at that time is is, is astounding in most Americans would find it hard to believe, but when he
This is a member of this. This group there's an a number of other ethiopian guys on the part of the mission of this key and has been obvious Define fossils, but they sort of Meda do a mission to train Africans. We can talk more about that later, but You know if you look at Lahti Old imagine, is about human origins. You see people and oftentimes. I like european people, get up. Americans and then then in Africa DR human origins, but historically at least and for a long time. Africans were not they were hardly represented in the ranks of the scientists. but most of this team had made a part of our mission to training. Ethiopians now need to be in a field group. Phd scientists in behind is one of those people and another guy who actually found it
speaks about his name is your highness? Every Selassie he came you strained by Brian, damn one of these days he's out there with its group of people in their crawling across any finds a little bit of bone will handle. second, a second matter: carbon about like right, ear, your hand and his broken, and there is a great and we got a piece and so at first, Did this partial savagery things broken in the ice, to fear the bone fragments area no one's expecting than he? Finally, peace like that is necessarily gonna. Be anything else from that skeleton that you find because the staff is scattered and it came from, arose out of God knows where a few days later they go back into the crowd and MR anymore pieces and then more pieces and then on another.
saving, which is basically like, taken dirt and shaken through a screen, and then you know seeing was there another course lot or oxen all kinds of crap but late if they start Dixon bones there and then they are like Burgos, our ears, multiple elements of a skeleton here, or multiple elements of an individual, ok, but it still is, I am optimistic to think there may be a skeleton, but anyway then, that their finding peace, peace and then, when you start funny, multiple pieces, then it suspicion, grows that there may you may be close to the original spot, where the skeleton came out the grounds and within a bit of talking, I also know no united, but can I stop me? Second? This is I'm assuming dissolve fossilized rent, so this is this is This is fossil material, so basically, what what a fossil is for people to know its especially a bone that has turned to stone
so when stuff, you know it in the ground for a long time, in our minerals, can I come in and and display? the original biological material, so you can have fossil all kinds of us asked doesn't mean you re there, But how long did his question? How long do bones exist as bones before they become fossilized? I actually don't know. That's a good question My guess is that it probably varies a lot the condition in likeness the deal you go condition and size I dont know, but my guess be that that answer varies a lot depending on that's it they are deposition environment like an upward
I can't think of a good answer. Jamie, a fine. I'm sure, but so another question is: when is it always that bones become fossilize or as a very specific conditions like do bones for the most part just deteriorate and be eaten by, but young parasites since the environment and bugs and whatnot yeah yeah. So it's it's pretty rare to be lucky enough to find some like this, and so in that part of Africa. Their lot of predators enormous high I mean now and then an academic define, like you know, With these walls of things like already, they also find, like you, know, ancient hyenas, ancient big cats. In all these things that were like eating, you are our ancestors ups it like allow these councils have like to mark cinnamon and stuff so, let's say something dies: a carcass lands on the ground in a boom
it's probably consumed by some big, add or whatever or whether really ravaging things are you. You know that I'm in packs. and they have these really powerful jaw. So they can actually chew bones down splinters and so now You know something dies I mean after a couple days. There could just be like splinters laughter, satellite data click clean off the skeleton for its anyway. They they come in and then without this, like this whole like chain of other scavengers that move man. I mean a lot of ancient pigs and believe it or not- and you may think, of, like nice, little pig is being eroded. Cute buying out animal. But actually pigs are super annihilated scavengers at of events, the ruthless the ruthless we haven't
for you. Fossilized preserve remains become fossils if they reach an age of about ten thousand years. Ok, so it doesn't, it does not. Then along comes up comes out there. internet, so we know it's. We know it's true, that someone is the sore National geographic, not org. I went to further so that National Geographic took nothing worse than its it's a long time, so we back to wild pigs here, while pig well, that was unanimously as seen in the movie snatch right. Remember. That movie proud and radically movie it's a great guy, Richie Crime movie. The guy keeps pigs because pigs will eat everything. The bones eat everything so when he gets rid of many murders, people who throw them in the pen with pigs and legs eat every part of the body. What exactly so Peters pigs, and then there is in our porcupine. like other little little rodents the comments of dung beetles, I'm at a time, like going down through so things up,
by the time. There's nothing left to eat. There's not much left to this. The skeleton so anyway, so that's it! just preserving the bones now there's another thing that has to happen for being too fast. You know it has did like being a deposition of environment that will encourage the dawn to fossilize and not just the great you know, and you know, there's different can play is that are conducive to that. Anyone is like a place where there is like wake or something- and you know covering it with sediment and this particular place thank was probably an ancient floodplains or somewhere near river, whether it be like over bank flooding every now and then would like put on these. here's silt over time and then the stuff just be buried myself, then it with what fossilized but aiming to answer your question. So you don't you have like a herd of antelope wherever a hundred antelope and in other at all Their ends in various ways, but none of them could actually beef fossilized in the end and also its purpose,
it's a pretty small minority of things that they have the courtesy to leave their bones for us and then so that, That's one element that makes this thing so hard and the other one is just eat out. You have to be. If, if you are a hundred, you know the ability to adjust, you have to come along at the right time when that fossil is coming off the ground. So basically the stuff get buried in a United Europe in our layer, cake and any other later, stack up and fossilized, but then come to the surface. Again, you re by geological folding later Erosion and once the stuff comes, the service sector some thousands are like rock and no less in upper long time, but other stuff, like This particular skeleton are actually really Shockey and da. I mean TIM White, the fellow who is
So the guiding us all this elaboration says in other. It's it was really could like come apart in your hands? If you didn't handled right, so they just have the good fortune to conduct SH in this spot, when it was coming out of ground just enough to be found, but it had been on the surface for long enough sort of be degraded and stopped on by stealth by animals and then blown around inexpensive stuck up to the surface. It doesnt so slow right, so that they get these torrential its the desert get a lotta rain, but when they do get range that can be torrential and then that just sends you know everything downstream. As I said the Goldilocks Zone intention to have happened to be there time and you know some of that. His luck, but it's also in our union Make your own luck. It's it's! It's it's putting yourself in the position to I'm things you don't do spot them
there on the ground and then to do the detective to sort of fine original resting place like such a dim light. This dimension is that The appeal here, anthropologist g when they found a got stuff on the ground. The question is where we come from, where the original institute site with kind of where I left off and I'll tell you a story a minute ago, founding all these things on the ground, replanting flags to mark where each one came from a patter converge urgent getting narrower narrower omnibus this little black and You have to compare the two, But the goal of minors did in California is from California another forty Niners, where you're sort of like see what the pattern is immensely to follow it up, sloped the source and that they did and then they start they started, dig dig in there. They found somebody.
That were still embedded in the original sentiments. That tells you like, ok, now, we found the reader, the original resting, but of this thing and that's when they start digging in that's. You know, I'm Israel's It's very slow process and it doesn't happen nearly fascinated stretches over days and weeks, but Ebay, they start digging their and this is when they say I'll grab. This is like a skeleton so between finding initial bone and ninety four to actually pointed out of the ground and a skeleton form. How much time is this taking Ok, so I think they found is the first piece of skeleton and animal sometime in November. Ninety four then give me mildest, there's all kinds of stuff going on, so there certainly are doing surveys elsewhere, because I've, as I mentioned before this particular project, it got stuff
sediments of all kinds of ages and its huge, and so they ve got a lot of places to look- and you don't know it so the next year in this line of work, you don't start digging until you have a pretty good. Really, and to believe there's something there, because otherwise you're just gonna waste your time, and we don't have much time in the field where you got him in a paid. Sustained these explanations in the desert, there's you know, there's people running around with guns? I mean that we have adopted this, but there's like this tribal like tribal warfare going on there, and so on. So you don't you don't is your time digging unless you have a pretty good reason to believe that there is something there They find this first piece in November and then I think, and they come back some days later and then start fighting each other pieces dimension and then
then, in some weeks there was some weeks later before they started digging some of that was waiting, Tilney, there's enough evidence tickets to really strong me the gate tat. There was something there and saw that was just juggling the conflicting priorities in the field and what one Those conflicting priorities is actually were searching for another. What they It would be another skeleton quite close to this. One just need a couple hundred meters away. because they had found in our nice arm bone there, the year before and then this whole dog and darkened dog and had done for years there, but never down anymore that creature, so that's that's kind of an example of what is not about the
As for you dig it then diet has nothing, but in this case there was something there was a lot there, so you got with scepticism that it was all from the same individual yeah. Well, that's. That is, of course, unclear when you're starting to dig but I think over the days and weeks as they were slowly pulling pieces out of this excavation site which is a very slow process. I mean they're there literally working with, like dental tools, minute lot: pictures of him there and chipping away in his students you now they're they're, using up brushes enough to brush because you want to go in there with a trial, because they're gonna destroy something's up Over the days and weeks. They discover there's no duplication of parts which
a strong indication that it might be one individual now can I stopped again are the filming all this so that they can like, so that if there are sceptics because it would have their policies and paleontologist aren't allowed sceptics right, so are they preparing for this and Phil every step of the way, not every step of the way, but TIM. Why is a relentless record keeper. Ah He has this, but you menace photo guys for one It is also a relentless record keeper and he'll when the excavation started they actually, as you said, they did set up a video on a tripod and traded on the excavation era, and just let it role and that this has been back in the days of Bob, There is an obvious answer like micro, something, but even so, they're they're coming all the stuff. So by the time,
come along. You know many, almost twenty years later, TIM. Let me say all this stuff into me. This was like an absolute goldmine because I see this that I would normally have to reconstruct you're after the fact which I wouldn't I want to see the conversations that people told me what they said. I'd I'd have to greet that with some If this isn't, because how reliable as this person's memory after twenty years of Munich, I couldn't really be there in any way, but now they have a videotape, I'm watch it. While these guys are digging up these little pieces, watching, while TIM, is it are exposed, smile of this ancient this ancient member of the of the human family and hours and hours of this stuff. So I actually here the excited
and then all the other kind of cross talk. The joke see how the fact that their playing the grateful dead in the background or about marked listing the BBC aid or other stuff here is so up to me as rapporteur. That was. that was like the equivalent of them fighting the skeleton for me having this trove of records was just such an astounding jackpot, because it, let me be there you're. That's amazing, sold the teeth were intact and have a full smile, the teeth where they were they were. They were The job out. I don't remember off. I shouldn't give your number cuz. I don't I member, but they pretty much, got most the teeth of this creature autonomy. Maybe not on this one individual, but there are while. operation went on for years and over the years, a collected, alot of fragments from other it
video. So I'm sure they they have pretty much. All the teeth are proposed. All that I mean that the number of teeth they have as its limits did the book summer night. I don't remember the number, but it's it's well over a hundred so with already in the skeleton there is this. Is this the only example of this particular member of this this this evolution, this period and evolution or their other. the similar timeframe that they found. Other individuals or other species other individuals, yes there's a lot of of individuals and of the species, but again there just they're not No you're not Obviously you know they find like it in our part of the job another individual exited. They found a nice jaw of our parliament
just like a stone's throw away from our body was found a found say like us, some of football and, on the other, bigger member, they kind of joking and they can bigfoot. and they aging these their aging, these creatures, based on the biological material. That's around it. Yeah. What did this is. This is interesting in this. This, if you read about this, becomes part of the scientific detective stories techniques that are there, that are used in an we as a rapporteur, this was actually partner. Regions of this story was getting to learn about all Component sciences: let go into paleo right up and then there are a lot of immense deftly, a multi disciplinary feel, but one of the most important then discipline. Some discipline within this is geology and the rest is. The geology gives you the timeline to answer, question that use that you just asked out, and so there is different.
Methods of dating. I mean you consulted if you're in the fields, You can begin to make estimates about the of the sediments based on the other animals. they're like? If you know, if you find a certain type of pig that this pretty good, species, a pig between live between the state and that dates for that kind of narrows down. I'm sorry all that Bio chronology. So that's one, but the be all specific method of dating, is dating, the volcanic ash is alive and I can do. I can give you like a quick one minute tutorial on that junior yogurt. So as I meant so so. Basically you could think think of geology is like a layer cake right so as to stay the ancient layers that were laid down like us described was to say this. One is a million years old, this one's two million and three sons for ok,
So how do you know how old things are? Well that the main method updating is called radio metric dating, and so that this, this means that they find vote ash is, and that are because this is on the edge of the great revalued, like tons of all all up and down Eastern Africa and everyone Somalia robbed, and they spew out. You know shoes and lovers and the stuff settled on the ground from in some cases I mean is decent ash layers. I really think I mean like several feet thick and you think, oh, my god, what I apocalyptic erection eruption that must have been without haven't bereavement great for the geologist because they can take these ashes and I take in the lab and then again tell em busy by the year is called eyes the topic dating and so basic, we just there's a change in the isotopes of of of potassium, in particular an organ,
which are components here, and this is the case that a constant rate which is not affected by temperature or private pressure, if it's in the earth or whenever it is to concentrate. So this gives you a yardstick to measure how old something is, so they can't figure out the age of the individual bone. but you can't figure out the layers of the ashes and lobbies that are above and below it, and that gives you a bracket and there's like, like literally hundreds of ash and arm lab awareness in this area and in all these things are and have been dated over the years. That gives you a time lights. Up with this particular scouted. There is very convenient. An ash in the letter about it another one below it, and when did, the dating they both were calculated to be four point: four million years old. So that means it means that the tea
between them was deposited in a pretty short period of time. Maybe they don't do this dating, doesn't give you down like the year or even in a tens of years, and no one knows like just how long that peer time was, but it's probably in the order of maybe eight hundred years, something in the hundreds of years, not not long and the aid for something of this age. That's actually really precise, dating so said, aunt, your question, its its use volcanic ash as loud as above and below it, to figure out the date of things and what is the the window of a possibility like that? How tightly can they narrow that down within a million years like what well, I think it probably depends on them. it I'm not a geologist. I want to speak beyond my layer of knowledge here, but with this one they they bought it down to four point: four aside that unites that's pretty desperate
I actually think there's there. Certainly at there is certainly a margin of uncertainty margin of error there that they reported in some long number louder decimal points which I don't remember, but yet lot long story short. That four point four is a pre: it's a pretty good, it's a pretty good date and further for this stuff of this age. It's it's it's, It's it's quite silent. Now, when you have a being like this that so unusual its knowledge, anything they encountered before with the longer legs in the thumbs and feel that the whole deal. What, when their piecing together like how do they know exactly where everything go, how are they absolutely sure how to put this together when they're putting it together and their realizing the so different than what they expected for something of this age? What how much of a freak out is happening? So it is different in some important parts
but then again, if you're, an expert on stauntons like these guys I've its is different objectives, but I didn t know how skeletons together- and you know I mean they can t- tell ones heavy losses and jack. You don't get a fever confused with with like somebody like you, so you know they look at listen and am in. I don't have the knowledge, but certainly those people do They can pick up a tool in this area as in the Upper Right side of the mouth, the means the people that no skeletons can do all this. Mental rotation in their head, and they can often do it from fragments about. So it's not the whole truth, but like her, action to use or a fraction of Vienna some football, and to me that was actually won the fascinating things about this is like. people that no they're skeletons can
read the revelations and in this lists and the skeletons other story of a gigantic Pythagoras, how they discovered that no, it was an apothecary shop in China. There was an anthropologist to found a believe. He found a tooth and it was like what the hell is this and he realized it was a primate to those much larger than anything that ever seen before, and then he asked them to tat, I think, is an abomination. Nineteen, twenty four nineteen thirty and then they will. I mean I think they ve gotten anything more than some jaw bones and teeth and they realize it's a by penal hominid that was somewhere in the neighbourhood of the eight feet tall Oh, I wouldn't they wouldn't have better harm at it if it was to have a common interest in the old meaning than any meeting has changed, but seems like member the human family, which was basically after are split from the gems, and out if they call them. How many aims with I am at the answer. So what you got
we get a bit because, I believe, is of a mile seen apes. It's an ape. It's a primate but you wouldn't considered a member of the human family, is just one of many weird things from this period. They call them. I assume that fuck them the terminology up at the point where I was gonna today. I believe me we have just from looking at a jawbone. They can figure out what this thing wasn't her tall. It was, as bonkers area, because in the body proportions are I mean They they varies somewhat, but you can tell a lot from does individual bone. It I mean like believer not like the head of the femur is often used as a kind of us to ignore the ball them all and secondly, on your on your fibre is often
years was he was an auditor, the GSM and back to scale different parts, so the they got. This complete skeleton there's there's nothing missing from already over. There are some things missing out covers all classes of units, its relatively can I made by the standard a paleontologist, its remarkably complete and actually the hands and feet which usually you dont get like tempt? And why- together and policy, calls him you know. Carnivore orders gives you know your lying, your carcasses there and like it out, I got you does come Zander like you know, there's a handout for you know they ve got a mortgage, you after feet and so on. So it's it's remarkably complete, but there are some pieces missing and our some pieces better just present, but really damaged like the spine is not there and it sure would be nice to have a say because you can tell a lot about the color side of the creature? The organization, the creature? If you know how it
Spinal segments are divided, the pelvis they have a lot of, but it's pretty distorted by allergies. Anyway, there's a there's! Some, the limb bones are fragmentary, so for example, they don't have a new joint, which was sure would be nice to have, because you could that that that's like an interesting better data to figure out just how how this creature was a bypass. So he went so there are. There are certainly pieces missing and I'm sure that science would loved love to have them. if they ever is already on display is, is there or ITALY online deserve a place to view to view it not well that there are some bab photographs of it in a Europe that have been published and you can see it there, lay it out on a table in the form that they think that it came in
Men and the form that didn't to reconstruct these discussions to go is, as is not terribly hard for these guys to do. I think in one case there might have been a question about whether hand bones in Ireland There was a guy I've failings. While their fingers- and there was a question, do you go in this finger or another figure, but the most part, the it's easy for these experts to know where an element goes in the skeleton, so there's pictures of of the skeleton laid out. You know not long after discovery, not not in the field but in the land. this other parts took a long time like a skull, may not took. more than ten years to put that together here, since it with the skull, came in several fragments. Obviously, yeah, so it looks like some of the pictures were published. I d, like to
When I came on the ground, I think it has been my car, like pounded down by this source of allergies, It was like when you took a pie, driver to Alan. how do the thing down and so on it that was quite frankly Jerry, and so they had reconstructing was reconstructed by scientists from Japan in Ghent. Stuart Jamie, put an image of it up on the screen right now to look at it. Right now is fascinating, so it shows like basically like half of it was intact or somewhere in the neighbourhood of wreck, forty percent of it up at the top of the side of the head, as is really cool. What you can do so there's this guy, reconstruct that his name is Gansu he's from the University Tokyo Museum and he's he's in our very exacting scientist. I haven't met him personally, but I'm not a lot of people who work with them and needs,
is very on assuming guy, but he economies all his colleagues and all because of his is argument. He K reconstructed that way, his team credible back. So it's of athletes are set at the wrong, whether its level of viewing the left side is actually there the right time that was reconstructed, but the left side is the actual skull itself, which is a bunch of pieces, but the the teeth are remarkably intact, and that was the other part there was fascinating to me was that it it doesn't have canines like a chip. It has them more like a human being that. Actually, that was one the big well now number one. That's one of the indicators, the strong indicators that tell us that this is something in somewhere in the human lineage number one, because we have as you mentioned canines that are different. Then most other apes and of the other, most other private.
Have these interlocking canines in, like Gippsland guerrillas, are too close? His cousins knew that the big fangs they they sharpened themselves. Rubbing against the prima canine rubs against the pre mauler, So it's gonna, like always keeping your knife sharp, but humans are unique. As we have these things, that are not these guys like fags They are diamond, shaped Socrates, I certainly bigger than yours and mine, or Remember the human family, but it shows that arm this what they call canine reduction, was already well under way. the time already lived and actually that that is an important point, because that the teeth like that Nice in particular, are kind of a diagnostic feed, sure of these early
members of the family, because when you get back in time the things that the clues that that tell you- this is a map of the human family that they become much more subtle. Does these creatures get more and more apelike lesson, ass human, like as you go back in time, so canines are sort of reliable way. I would say a reliable indicator to tell you that year Looking at some better really humanity here. Does it tell anything about Artes diet, because or is it a defensive think is like when we looking at guerrillas guerrillas? Are they have canines, but there vegetarians and their designs are for defence, right, right, right, the others. This is interesting, so if you have your, I mean they spend our time. Eating like leaves stuff, and you don't get a big canines didn t like TAT battle.
Leave so this is the sort of predominant. Interpretation is that this is a side of interest. Species aggression? Because you never got guerrillas, for example there? They they their mating structure is that there is like a big alpha: male Lagos COM, Stiller back and he gonna lords over this harem of emails intense desire, the kids and in an area that is bachelor males there, Well, sometimes, challenge alpha mail and try to take him out, so they so natural selection would the case. A guerrillas would favour these big shark canines, and then these big brute bodies, like male guerrillas, are quite big in some cases like twice its biggest the females and this law interpreted as like, enter
intra species aggression for meeting now humans are interesting, because we don't have there's big, canines and inaccurate. This factors into the army story, because one of the main- investigators and evolutionary theorists on Turbulent already was a felony Owen, Lovejoy and he's from can state University in the United States, and he has a theory that arm What you're, looking at with canine reduction is a social revolution, that this is monogamy happening, basically that that, instead of in some guerrilla like magic structure we recently Instead, it like a harem worry a meeting structure like gems. Or bonobos, which are more promiscuous, but certainly not when I stagnant Ivan arguments, but if you that the canine reduction. We see me. Human lineage is because there was
pair bonding and that reduction. A canines is a sign of reduced again and our species awe, and this was dimly, is like what one of the early human major adaptations that sent us on our own way. That's got to be a very controversial theory. Isn't it because there is a lot of paleontologists that think that even with human beings there's a lot of people that think that human beings weren't really monogamous until they figured out whose kids there, were dry towards its guides. Hugely controversial for a whole number is, but one thing I should clarify is what what the biologists mean about money. So it's wrong to try to understand that in China, like our modern, moralistic way. This is not like. You know the American Family Council talking here about an army, this anomaly in the way that like to-
there's a lot of examples of of creatures that do have that our monogamous, like birds, anything like in my mind at rest, the origin Kay, coyotes, arbiters or givens is another rum. Another primate there Margaret said this is not unusual in negative of biology, yeah, so Genuine wasn't as people say. As you know it, you know. That's gonna, like brigades, outsmart Maybe it's not! That is it! It is a legitimate way to describe it made its body that exists in many places in nature. Ok, so, There's! Another theories that have ah, you know ascribed human sexuality is something I want to something more like a chip That's your problem! Promiscuous!
and you know it especially mainly the does the book mentions that you know the pull a model of a ship like ancestor has been in power. I went in anthropology for fur for decades and When one sub category there is making strategy- and it This is a view I mean everyone abusers. I read about you notice should theories about you know, given hitting strategies a minute, all kinds of of of The people have explained R r peculiarities and IRA. Our sexuality and now we're we're looking at already we're talking about an animal that predates weapons, correct as far as we know so, the first stone tools do not appear until well, certainly I'm gonna have to point six. No.
years ago. This stone tools there. Some things have been found in Kenya that are older than I three point, two or three point three that that one is a little controversial, so will see how that all Jake's out but every way, but it Your case is at least the stones rules are way after our e after Lucy, so it's possible, they use weapons, sticks in things along those lines. So that's that's the parts we may never know, because if the suddenness stick the biodegrade Sven it orthe are throwing Iraq right in you. Can you get down You go down. We know that the ideal would be that they're not hunting with weapons most likely now, it. Actually surprisingly, weapons are arrive, pretty late in human organs.
the figures in the book and I dont want to say it now. I don't remember what it is off hand, but early tools? How things like in our and then hand axes, but those are tools for processing food there, I mean the weapons come late. It's kind of interesting that others, The things that are identifiable weapons are like spears, on Atalanta and of were all like or inability like list of things that leave us this theory. Lately they are their their stone. That preserve those zones Those company latest interesting question about we're just why weapons were developed and why why we started using them. So do we know? Oh, do we have speculation as to what Artes diet was like was already a firm of yeah, so they can. They can make some determinations based on a couple lines of evidence. One is
Microsoft microscope extra Asians and teeth does want to eat something. You know you whatever you eat, it's kind of like a scratches on on the surface of the dental material, so they can make some inference. Is there another one? Is using this gets complicated, but makes him infringes about what kind of plant foods aid based on there's. This is two kinds of plants like side see three or C4, and this refers to like two different forms of photosynthesis. C4 plants tend to be more like open, Sonny sort of thing see three plants tend to be. No more shady things I mean this is not an absolute difference, but it's it's a day, report my anyway, so they can make some inferences? there that artists, diet was mostly like see three things which tends to be there.
Better and more kind of wooded areas, not de open new, no food grasslands. Of that The committee did, it did have some c4, this diet, but it's mostly see three, but in so mostly vegetables as this would leave, or do it isn't inferred that its omnivorous yellow it's probably omnivorous. I've heard some speculation that maybe, if they are, may be eating when some bugs and bitter yeah stuff, like that The interesting thing is like you can you can get say three C4 poor signature from eating the plant which directly, but you can also get it if you eat another animal that's been eating. One of those two things so they're gonna, moved up through the food chain is their sight. Regulation is to like what natural selection benefits would be for it to stand up for it to be upright. so that this actually gets back to that monogamy three outstanding about which is, admittedly, quite controversial. But so what
Joy fear rises and this was presented when with them. These to the announcement series of papers. When already was finally revealed the world in two thousand nine on Wednesday is that its monogamy is a mating strategy. And arm and that basically isn't it. There is about your question arranged, unlike what their sparkling wine speculating her error answering the question: why? Why is this erect gaps that what Europe? Yes, yes, I this is an interesting take on the whole question, so this course in a wider human stand up right as the million dollar question of human origin Semi Darwin try to answer in now and many many or try answer those more serious than you can shake a stick out. I mean Darwin
set out in a people stood up because they were using tools out a free, the hands and other people have said now it's because they were you're, trying to minimize son exposure at her standing up to now in March last year that less something here that I made people instead, its phallic display, but it's all kinds of stuff, you're, picking fruits, over tallgrass, maybe you'd. You name it right about this, thing is that most of these theories look for, like a direct benefit for standing to some direct evolutionary benefit. I once there is a little different, because he doesn't think there is a direct benefit. He thinks it's sort of a secondary thing, so just a tiny little bit more about. I want him he's gotta, interesting guy is interesting. His but he we're in his career. He specialised in biomechanics He was the main biomechanical endless
on the Lucy team. In twenty years before art came about it is early career. He worked with scientists who designed artificial joints, and so He grew up, but as a scientist with free keen, awareness of how biomechanics worked. Also, what could go wrong with the skeleton at all, well tell you that, like the Bible, Now it is a really stupid thing to do from an evolutionary perspective, because it makes you slow armenian iron, slow and and You know if you want to be your faster. I approach should stay on all fours. You know it its invitation fur for disaster. You know, because you know, Why do we have artificial, efficient jointed, because people blow out these blow out hips and minimum standing up also causes these vulnerabilities and your back
because of the way the spine is kind of contorted in and with humans. So why on earth with this species? Do this stupid thing? Why are there? Eight billion of us here If we did this stupid, that owns when's theory is that it was actually a a sacrifice: locomotion, but what it did do is it gave us this big pay off and reproduction, so he thinks standing erect was to free the hands. That The context of these monogamist relationships are before so that the males like you and me became provisions. They basically be kept. The males became partners in the child rearing and this increased survivors ship so into anything the other apes in our not very, not very involved that's your only begun. With dead, I called a deadbeat ass soon ass. They were answer
But humans are usually others monogamous relationship, so Owens theory is that the by plurality was just a means to an end. It allowed the males to provision and the team. Females word be able, spend more time in video, children, and this was a a demographic revolution and answer, and then they they reduction. Canines is part of that theory and that it does. This was like a reduction in aggression, so we're not fighting over it was they offer We're were in these monogamous pairs within a troop of primates, and that explains why the appears pretty early in human evolution and why they reduce canines also appears is there anyway, I'm sorry. This is always the it's it's it's quite controversial. A man may now it's it's without finding things at them. Even if you are able to find a skeleton,
right in all of them already. It would still be controversial, but that's that's if there is there a compelling competing theory there there are lots of completing theories are probably too many to dimension you haven't dimensions, some in our standing ups, does the allowing display we'll get much about now at a time when areas came shortly after the sexual river privileged beard- and that's where is so, we don't know Basically we don't know men abandoned some of this stuff amount to be asked in from my point of view it is on.
ultimately be unknowable. Does the fact that already was basically intact, despite being around predators and scavengers, and all these different things and the fact that already was walking on hind legs, despite the fact that walking on hind legs makes you more vulnerable, does does this signify that it was in some sort of a pretence did environment or wasn't at such risk of predation. Remember these. These things can go in terms of escape being predator trees. You good guy where they can go up a tree and every I'm not Between you and me, I too have an impossible task, but if I were out on out in some dangerous place, Africa, when the sun is going down and other hyenas were coming out, I would be problematic a treaty, but I would recommend you do this. You know you're going to have to worry about the big cats but die anyway.
so did have the ability to to go into the trees. How do these things, thereby that's an interesting question. I mean they're other animals that Monkeys that lived there that have the same in others. Challenge today, but I actually until you just a little interesting aside here and started at the field. Work part the detective story, so the fact They found the skeleton that was remarkably complete was all the more miraculous because of the condition of all the other stuff. They were finding until that point, so tim- why the main parliamentary powers on the team he it is. His very experience has been working in Africa for a long time and when he looked at the fossil assemblage the word that he used it was ravaged- and this was visible to him, you know from you know from their first days on the site, because their finding all these fragments of things. That appeal.
shoot apart. Enough is defining teeth, defining pieces. Teeth and like bone setter. Chewed splinters ah In some cases they actually found things that our edged by digestive asked. Why? So, basically, what that means that in our religion, by some kind of offering a past, you didactic dragon shit out in our left in some pile in our that then in integration the tooth is still there, but they can see they like the service. Has this time altered texture to it that tells these people than the others. they just ass it at work on the enormous thing. So you don't because that was like the signature of all special standards that there were saying it out everything just getting my teeth in life in our things that have been in the past. You director, Jack, O Connor splinters it you're, not gonna happen. for a skeleton. You're, not gonna, find a skeleton here, but
now by just by great love, They did for some reason. This carcass wound on the ground was not no dummy almost by all these predators and then had a chance to fossilized, so that that is just remarkably good fortune. Was that one of the reasons why was tree with some scepticism. Because we are aware me. No one doubts the existence of the skeleton at least know. No one knew what you should do is since welding down absorbing, there's somebody got things that are so specific, like the carbon dating of the the upper lower layers. The fact you have so many bones affected than not repeating the fact that its clearly some sort of a primate and that you put all the stuff together and reconstruct the skull and
we? What is the controversy controversy? Whether like there's a couple of things I mean you can talk for a long time about this, but I guess one point a controversy is: is it indeed a member of the human family and you know, as I said before, you get further, I can time and the things that tell you it's a member of the human family become more subtle like these canine tee, for example, biotechnology is another one, but you know there's you know it. a great deal of scepticism in the field about, in other there's people who grew. How I talk to who tell you cook who doubt that any of these early so see that have been identified as hominids or Everley members, the human family. They doubt that any of them really are or- or that's just a noble for this kind of like this. This- almost in some people. This does
almost like NEO the view that you can really ever know that. That's it that's one, but but I do think that is changing the validation. I've already as a member of it human family. The Yemen lineage is, as I think that is a growing number of people who are accepting it and, as its people with a lot of outside people who have been fully endorse. What the research team, As I said in a whether to direct ancestor or like you know, one of your extinct an uncle maybe your grandfather, but maybe a year ago. You know that we may never know that, but so that anyway, that's one point of controversy is it is it in our human lineage another one is the arguments that day discovery team is
about what it reveals about. The last common ancestor of humans and apes, and you don't like, for example, we were talking before about bout, this model of a ship like common ancestor of humans and and africa- and the already team we spent fifteen years studying this thing for they and asked it to the world they I believe and strenuously argued that the scale, Ten shows you that the common ancestor of humans and the african apes was in fact, like a chip, not nowhere near as Chimp like everyone thought, because there's no vestige of knock a walking me there's a bunch of other things that gets it s, sort of like some anatomical
whereas esoteric anatomical stuffed. Have you read the book view if it it gets into the water, but up So, anyway, that's that's part, the controversy source, so there there is a sort of subset of the critics who have come to accept already, as indeed a member of it, human family say, say other there right. They placed it correctly in the in the human family tree, but they are not yet convinced that it is that it falsified. This idea of a chip like ancestor in other organs, would be well. sure in the ways that already may still descended from this and like ancestor, but it of all new adaptations that serve erased, those from its anatomy. So that that's one of controversy. I mean there's, there's the great
about the skeleton actually because it because it is so complete and because it was released. With this huge package is always a whole series of paper about the hand or foot in order that the palace, the skull- There was a lot of father there for debate and disagreement, and that's what's been happening for the last ten years now, when they they talk about a chimp ancestor, a chimp like an ancestor. Is this just because chimps are around, we know genetically that were at least closely related to Champs it supposed resumed, and is it possible that there was now that all the way back like from the beginning that our ancestors revive veto.
Well, I don't, I don't think many people would say well, ancestors of the human lineage right click out. You already already is the eldest known fool, skeleton that we have of our ancestors. If we go back, if we somehow another found something that was twelve million years old would have that thing was by penal. Ok, what gave so one one problem is that they split between humans and in, and ships- it's probably not that all of your twelve billion you're, probably somewhere before the huge let em there's a lotta like squish time in their stolen Nina, and actually, I think, actually, as it happens, I think some of them Estimates that are a kind of further stout are in fact well know it, but I am somewhere between six and twelve million were they wear humans and ships, but it's kind of one of these little, but the to think that want once upon a time there was a split between humans and chip. So if you go back far enough, you're China, champ or something like a chap. Well, you
find an ancestor of a giant another big big question as it does it, look like a modern jump right or does apply something you ve never seen before or does it look like something that sort of primitive version of our business. I mean this is this: is the right now This is like, of course, another quest for for science of the discovery of art, a pit ardor pemphigus- was really a monkey ranch into this whole idea of what we ask that that was what what was one thinks it's quite controversial about it and in our we haven't, talked much about discovery team that that put together but they are the other, their very good scholar
the very good at what they do, but are also quite provocative and goods which do not for me, of course, made them great material. But it opted out present the skeleton and say he hears us Discussion of the skeleton go head. Make up your mind. They presented it and said, is a greener skeleton. and this is why Europe and you're on your own- your eyes so that it was it was echoed back if it was a provocative series of papers with with some stunning revelations. But why some people. The research community did not take kindly to them the most of presentation, but that's it one point is that this is this huge research community that study chimpanzees are either in the field during observational studies or them in the lab to try to find clues. About the origin of him.
locomotion a I mean the chimps are gonna became this all purpose model, and so, when team came along and told them they're all carbon at the wrong tree there is. There is a lot of consternation about that. It so fascinating to me that there was a time where this thing didn't exist. We didn't know it existed and that it was only ninety ninety four and that our understanding of where the human species came from relies on these perfect conditions to happen, and then someone to come across this thing at just the right time and disk and that this person has be a skilled researcher. That knows how to handle it and put like our understanding of where we came from is Much as we know about the internet and space travel, the galaxy it so crazy to me that
we need a piece together. Our understanding of the history of the human species. Based on these, like perfect scenarios, What is a reason why these skeletons are so rare Amelia hard to find the right illogical conditions and relentless to start with, where you find these things there we were pre certain that early human origins was in Africa, and I mean that's pretty clear at this point: humans. Her givens were confined, Africa as far as we know until about two million years ago, and some of these primitive species started go out so early stories and in Africa. Are you often people say one or another great the Valley is the cradle of humanity or South Africa, a cradle of humanity, or they don't know they even or whatever, and These places were not necessarily the only places that human,
Sisters dwell. The reason we know about these things is just because These are the countries where the jail, Logical conditions favour the preservation of fossils, so in others as other this hot mythology. You know it's sort of about like this place. places like the other even of humanity or whatever the hell out of this self promotion, this board staff, sometimes scientists self, promoting again, They should what they should be saying as we're not in our view they were the the the birthplace, humanity, where they were the greater, but that doesn't have the same. It appear appeal where the gothic, but but if you look at where fossils are found like look at a map of Africa's a tiny portion of the african continent, is perceived as a fossil record. and in an account in others like Ethiopia. We talked about this Kenya. Ah there in South Africa as the different Jill
competition is there that explain, but South Africa things tend to be Third in caves tend to be a lily quite as old as the oldest things from the rift valley, but does it you start eggs are things elsewhere like in Chad and some other countries, but most of Africa is totally on. No fossil record, and so there could be A large part of the human story of evolutionary biology, general that had just gone, or at least net blot, not yet discovered. So we, or windows into the past? Are they'd like isn't, pin holes, and then there are the places where you find those things like in this effort. Oppression of Ethiopia, I'm talking about, are pretty rare. So you need to have those rare places, and then you also need to have the skill, This is not an easy is I mean I've. I've spent a couple gone out to deal with this problem
move a couple times and that this is not easy work to do at all. It's not is to find the staff to have the eyes to see it and then in the spotlight on the ground and is also not easy to do. Just logistically, men like right now, now, for example, I mean that work in Ethiopia cannot come to a stance. because their country is again having in simple go turmoil. Others fear that that might be and civil war, and so that means it's too These teams are probably reluctant to go the field because because of the dead, the danger and so work. Back to situations like what I described earlier. You know where it is today to go into that into the field, so some? So why are they so evident? Gets why the stuff skeletons about this, that the places where you find it are rare, the logistic,
go and challenges are severe and also the skill level that it takes to find something and if it does exist, is Is that taxi? A It takes a lot of skill. I was quite impressed when I went see how people could find things, because I people would find things that I, as a lay person walking just could not see, makes you wonder how much we ve missed, how much people has stumbled upon where they didn't have that scale or they didn't know they were looking out of they weren't train, they weren't educated in it, and they just found some piece of something that probably could. change the way. We look at our our history. I know it's it's just it's like. If the yeah I mean there it could be- and I mean somewhere under the surface in africa- there's all kinds of skeletons involve they could answer all kinds of questions for us, but we gave it is if it was just buried. That fond of me
this, as you know, some in some survey or comes long walks over in others, nothing a rose to the surface yep. It's it's invisible right, almost around sundays there is something a road area. And so with its arm its you only know, you know what you can find now since the time of the initial discovery in nineteen. Ninety four there's been a lot of different versions of the human being that have also been discovered like how many humans have they discovered now I know it a quiet Dennis solvents so that the name of em this year. Is that That is some fragments of bone that are from a cave up in Siberia. And I should add that was kind of interesting because they would get some ancient dna out of it so stuff, like Guardian Lucy, are too old to get in DNA out of
the alibi lot biological materials gone. But in so the newer stuff you Edward or younger, stuff there the day they can get. they call ancient dna out of them. So I mean just as an example on that about ten years ago some researchers were able to extract some dna from us. old neanderthal bones there's been this interesting question for decades about whether neanderthals, leave me out of the course of these famous. You know fossil species known from from Europe and from Asia and for a long time. There been this debate about whether in the NFL evolved into modern humans. There's one school of thought that that day, it did and then another school who thought they call they took out. The are out of Africa group who
believe that aid and other species of almost eighty, Thus in a row was it Africa and then moved in Europe and Asia and displaced in then Andrew falls, and basically computer Dahmer Killer, when it whatever some out, would we shut up they disappear. so in private problem. In some of the early dna studies, kind of supported that out of Africa deal that that certain displacement railway, about ten years ago, the people, instead DNA were able to start extracting, dna from some neanderthal end completely fossilized. There was like a little bit of violence the material there where they get started. It together, these ancient genomes and that that science has advanced a lot of its astounding wondered what they're doing now and dialogue You shouldn't say too much about it is that that is not my focus, so
So don't ask me to me hard questions about the, but but anyway, what one of the things that they have discovered was that in fact, there was some interbreeding between is modern, homo sapiens hook. You came out of Africa went to Europe and Asia and the others I'm portions of the matter our genome that are still alive or still as in the genomes of people who are of, but they cannot african descent, so basically the people who laughed Africa in red at least two but a degree with the intervals, and so little lonely and fallen in a lot of us so that that that's like a huge- Revelation and then there's been many other revelations with ancient dna and distance organs is another one. So it appears that you asked about all these ancient species. How may there are now there's? Probably a couple doesn't
members relish, for example, does it really does that many here? you were there name, don't mean anything This is a controversial thing too, because it's like you get to you. are a scientist, you fine, let's say a fossil and, if you name it something new. There is great and said despite that, the name something new because new species headlines in our nets. It's it's interesting. Let's say you find another, something that is a species is already known it. Maybe like a variation of that. I know slightly owners like the younger slightly like physically different. I mean it. I m o how there's some doesn't get the same about intentions, others. So there is a professional bias I think toward
naming new species. Now some of this stuff, I mean that no question a new species, you know Your arm in arm with a guess is one there's many other things have been discovered, but I think that the thing that's differ. got here. Is that the whole idea of species is people say, always something ass, a species, but that what does that mean and out modern humans for all we, to talk about. Our diversity were actually these genetically pre homogenous in compared to other primates, and so I think in the ancient past, there's probably out there is a problem, variation, at least some species. That's great! than what we see in our seas I was now so anyway, and then so that's that's part of the problem, then create systems.
about whether something is a new species are just another example of something that we already know about. What is happening is that you're gonna, ask that little guy that they found on the island of Flores Homo Florian says. Is that what he said I had a little dwarf like thing it was considered a human. It will that that's a big that again. Another point of debate I mean is this: everyone I haven't heard anyone doubt that it's a member of the other human family, but is really weird because it has like this tat. The time had spoken peoples as there is a fundamental island warfare, someone sometimes things like that. Like what goes on either the sea levels? Changing things get small something's that big, a little bigger on islands like about dragons or whatever, but in this case in others, thing got small and so there's a big debate about what it evolved from.
and in other other, more of these things and minutes that I live as recently as how about me wasn't that long right wasn't. Like fifteen thousand year, You got something crazy. I don't remember about it yet is it is? It is reason I dont have the exact number, but in some not of remark, Riddle wriggly recently of certainly within the life that they be life time of our species tablets. It's something were guilty: Crypto Zoology, which is always a weird thing right, but there's people there. Believe. I think it's called Oran pen deck chairs of lead very animal in the jungle of Vietnam. That is very much like this homo floor answers, a very small person, very small, Harry little person that lives in the job. I think it's Vietnam, a pretty sure, and they they think now that well hey. They might be really talk about,
did exist thousands of years ago, when a fossil species, I have malware legend. I think it's it's that's probably a lot of it s horse shit, but it's when when they found this homo Florence, is, I think, a lot of the people that were proponents of this or on pandemic thing. They were like well, hey, that's what we're talking about this is that there is the actual creature, little small harry purse. in this, like the big foot, Vietnam, but little fight, it signing yeah, but those speculation is that this thing you used to be, they just thought it was just too when I was crazy legends, but now, I think, hey. You know that what they might have been talking about, something that existed in human history like this Florence is did their, maybe maybe it's a mutant from out of them
agent orange injure something better than I think they're targeting it's pretty old story predates Vietnam, so we just as final vote on the species just a little food for thought, so your people banning This term species like people requesting the category, and so the weird thing about species is, we know so that species in biology. One of them is the classic definition. Biological species definite and the states from ninety four is my guiding Ernst Mars. Prominent biologists are a very important historical figures. to find the species, as the group the population that could breed with each other. Okay, so can make babies. You have the opportunity, make babies your ears species such as big, inclusive, plank right.
But of course, allow the fossil species in our. We don't know who could breathe, with whom we must know what they look like right. What's physically different and for a long time and so take humans. In the end of that has been the big debate. What's the relation between them today in a breed and so the interval is something that looks sufficiently different from homo sapiens. That is put in a different category the one of the big allows of ancient dna? Is you have to things that look physically different enough to be in categorize a different species, but now the genetics tell us that the day they are able did they didn't read so now, there's like this big problem with like what is a species like what you did Think biology has has made them.
Others have different opinions about this in some avoid the question all all altogether but there's one thing? I wrestled whether this book, you know it's like people. we have stated that they were using like language to describe biology, but those are two different mediums and sometimes the biology, the the categories, language in the categories of pacification- and this is that this is like a constant theme through Waste of human origin. Science is that in our people build these categories in these narratives to construct to hold the facts of what we know. but then on the body of now expands and suddenly you know, you're old categories are leaving all over the place- and that's that's therein lies the limitations of calling these things humans and what you can't human took a calm speeches. I I don't know
They are the ditch the their answer. to that. I accept that we should be clearly. You need language to have four precision, for science and enhanced absolutely necessary, but begin two dogmatic about your categories, because nature is not automatic measure. It is farmer fluid an end. Dynamics than that, and we don't have a complete picture of the exact process from ancient ape to human being in the current form, we don't ever now, we have a snapshots year. Snapshots been lucky enough to capture and other difficulties is one. Lucy was one more act, as you know mode already in others, this data, so ovens than low floor
thing may not all these snapshots, but you know it's not like. We have anything like it. complete picture, I mean you get. You can certainly see some trends through lines from the marks in a primitive things. A lot of things in other countries, Advanced bipeds limb proportions, changing they are the brain growing at a huge story, in human evolution, but there are a lot of all we have these I am shocked that we're lucky enough to get because of just the happens dancing. geology and and discovery got carried one thing about things that found quite interesting, something so you ve, probably heard about like the tree of life and of the human family tree and you know- and I mean this is an old metaphor and end, but but
but the tree is kind of having a little trouble right now they had. To get rid of it, but it's so when you have this idea of a tree where everything is splitting into dead ends in ITALY, it leaves these questions what people say like humans and animals which one led to modern humans, and it becomes like this either or thing, So you have all these species that look different from Intranet Centre, my head and the framework that I think it. Is sometimes led size into force choices where we say well, You know the answer as to ITALY this one or that one because look, there's a split here: and there they want their separate ways, because that's kind of what the tree metaphor, the pigs but actually what danger DNA is, is showing you, the things that are actually looking different, are actually able, you're getting and cross over their heads. your tree is looking a love, a lot less like a tree It's looking more like a web or a ladder, sometimes
it may be using his mistress searching for these other metaphors to kind of convey the complexity of what Biology is showing, but is it always is It's a lot more complex than like the simple treason leg of the species and andor just wanted sir. That little word of caution about the tree I mean the trees, are really powerful metaphor for the diversity of life, but when crease creatures, have recently split those branches, don't necessarily remained slid from each other. They can have some cross or in some interbreeding or hybridization, whenever you want to call it that way. the kind of hard to give you
I need a through lines from right. This is used to that species that this law is gonna, get to with all these various species of human or thing different types of humans that we know of now, since nineteen. Eighty four: is it possible that that there were that there were multiple different types of creatures like art, a pithy guess like there's, multiple different types of what we call a human being and that their site while teeny is slightly evolving in these different parts of the world in a similar time line and creating the Dennis so vans and homo flurry, ancestors and homo sapiens in the enterprise, and it's all just kind of happening unify universe like at the same time, but not along the exact same time. with the exact same ancestor were sunk. So this they got is cause at that for
with a guess his only known at this point. As far as I know, from Ethiopia, and One is the middle I wash the place. Where are they came from the house Skype Regular and then they ve also found some other out of pity. Guess A place called Gona, which is, physically and other project area that adjacent to the middle. I watched her bitter, basically neighbours, so in other this. Is it in this one part of everything up here dumb so how widespread was difficult in Africa. How, the range of the entire continent, or was it a regional species Yes, I do. I guess the answer is, is unknown and for the reasons I mentioned earlier, that there's is so little of Africa that that gives you the windows in the past, but so, but there is another article figures skeleton that spending now couple years from from Ghana.
And that one is interesting. So it is it has to be the case that the original already had this impossible toe and walked. It was a bright and it apparently walk with the tokens played off to the side. You don't collagen outrigger at this, this gonna creature they have something that they're calling a skeleton. I don't. I have actually seen it. I don't think it's actually been. They ve been published. It revealed its existence, but I have seen a picture and I don't think they revealed that but I was talking to. The arm scientists, there's a phone him. Scots Simpson from case whether to preserve universities are competent, failure anthropologist. He says there creature has this toe, that's what like are already
there's no doubt they belong to the same species, but this one has its toll more more in line with the foot, so it's more cost human like. So It still more drastic. It's about the same age is already so I've. It's like four point, four four point, five so anyway, so that so The point here is that There is just as there is in modern species like baboons or whatever theirs. Different populations or sub species that sometimes develop different adaptations for whatever reason andor quite similar, but you'd get these variations in afford. reasonable of about local adaptation. So our party from the original already is I'm not sure it's not that it's like maybe fifty miles are women
within that it is his it's just down the river that runs so there is called the eyewash river and and gona is the Judge Gary, that's immediately downstream of and allow wash were already was now. Is it so speculation that they were living in the same specific type of environment? But so do they know that together they were there's some difference. Environmental interpretation that between the two but either but there's Thurston, That is why I ask the reason I ask of you: ever seen: images of indigenous people in the Amazon, the walk round barefoot and their feet literally start to look like hands. They splay out in a very bizarre way. I haven't seen those particular picture but I do know that people that walk around unshod some others without shoes, ten develop its toes that are more divergent, not not oppose of alike at rather a primate, but from whatever is about being,
uncharted just gives you. You know you look at the the toe and it's like it's it's visibly separate. Oh yes, are looking right sure of it right now on the screen where sharia- and it s a very strange where it's it's almost like their gripping the ground with their toes and the toes of very thick and strong, because there are other, constantly walk around barefoot and they use their toes in the tone muscles in a way that we dont use him anymore, because we're actually were in casts with our shoe. Yes, you know what's really interesting about, maybe look like modern adaptation medications, modern humans in all these different parts of the world or in a particular way look into all these aims species which are even weirder as he realized nothing about our form. That's like an end destination, there's nothing about form that is like we'd know we have arrived at this was in a report. Its we're going the whole time as it is.
you wanna talk about who the weird once it's It's not always other things like the modern humans are weary of his big hands. We others funny way of walking were growled. we very much we work we have been very and an vandam, it others all these kind of myths about why in so many myths in the field of human origins, but one of them is you probably heard about like the divine proportions, are really old and ratio that humans were constructed. You know accordingly. It. These ratios of the fact that the called golden ratio is. This is just storytelling. Europe is the main there's. Nothing about. Our proportion of proportions are just a function of adaptation there a function of of, there's no biology, and you know when certain. Chemicals are releasing developmental process that governs how long your limbs grow. Weaker judge or whatever, but there's the we're just all variations of granite
did I hear a word is: where does one of them and so yeah so so sometimes you see, literature. Our people positing that somehow, There was something like an end. We reach some sort of any state or end up Dante and would not regional state we're just a variation of creatures that have been adopted It is just this common elements and adapt them. It offered different further fur. produces, and modern humans, though we do very size, wise much more than eight ancient apes that we find the correct like we don't fight like France's. I we eat a mountain from the game, a thrones that enormous giant human being that's a human being. I dont Iceland confess I am. I am sort of illiterate when it comes to pop culture. Can I get letters like it
but now I need to turn to them. You now, I'm gonna, like these literally one of the world's strongest man, he's like seven funded plus tall three hundred plus per enormous. But my point was that, like that he exists as a human being. Also Chris Rock is a human being and he's a very thin very small man like, but there are both human beings. We don't find that when you're looking at things like and a tall or you look here, ain't you find much more uniformity is correct. We know not a cell actually actually, in some cases, there's there's a lot of irradiation. I'll, give you one good example, so losing in others is famous fossil. Lucy was the species is called Australopithecus apparatus named. Frances after the fiery others parlor world? Where scouting therefore depression? She was discovered in eighteen. Seventy four she's very petite, probably a female
I forget all she is but like three foot, something in Many artists, a female to correct our If women are artes taller arteries, and I had taller than than mercy, but anyway, so with Lucy What when her skeleton was found in this was the only skeleton of that species they had of other pieces of things, but no scouted, but there there was this assumption that that speech. He's was small are these the female and now thanks to some other work is done in Ethiopia, replace a place anyway, a few years ago a team announced discovery of another skeleton of Lucy Species. It's a male, it's a lot bigger than listen. They call it cut it. which is the way forward for a big guy. But the same species as Lucy, but it's it's a big guy in ourselves.
actually taller. So it's sort of falsifying this idea that all Lucy's list- He was was petite so interesting, and why is that? Is that, because it there's a so called sexual dimorphism of males are bigger than females or is it just a different? population, or is that just just a difference in in awe You know the normal range within a population in our guests, short people and tall people in our union. Any part of it. I don't know better able to ensure the specimen, yet it got and they are both driven the same species, so anyone does just to give an example of a Emilio species where there is actually a sister your variation, how much did for losses it between Lucy in this other one? It's I don't know. Actually I wish I looked up before we talk, because I love to give you
but it is. The big guy is substantially tower and bigger than lose, but but the skeletons they have the anatomy of similar announced that they are attributed to the same speech it interesting there are similar age like Cotonou Mining and, like three point six million years old and and Lucy's. I think three point two. So when we look at humans like the Dennis servants and we consider that to be a different human than homo sapiens or then neanderthal do do we have any idea how that came about well, so my first marshes ed. I don't know much about Dennis over my understanding, as is not too much, skeletal be preserved up at me now not only have obviously been able to take a fairly recent discovery, right, yeah, within the last ten years or something so
Is it because like why they look so different that you haven't what what where they come from. I dont Know- and I dont think, allows what about that about that maybe I just heard studying it had no more then there are published, I don't know much about it, but we just the general idea why are these things? Look so different, so there's this concept? in size explain this, and this is not some people call it these are all its species asian. It's just like an adapted radiation of all these things going out in turning into these different species and that's kind of one way to look at it. But that's the way I prefer to look at it is what side is what scientists call isolation by distance, which sounds like car. we boring. I know you think what the hell does that mean, but basically what it means is that things in spread out
and politically with when humans got the technology in each humans got technology to basic, live in all these different parts of the world, they were isolated and then could adapt make these local their adaptations, which make them look, make them and adult look different. Then these sub Saharan Africans, for example, who are their contemporaries, but yet there still closely enough related, so when they do come back and contact as they sometimes do, they can still potentially in a breed so what the isolation by distance means. It just means that they please things spread out enough, so they get local adaptations like like you. for example, from the Amazon you don't people,
or from minutely anyone from the northern areas arena where it's it's such a fascinating feel the study, because you just you see how their piecing together this puzzle slowly but surely and adjust its persona impatient like theirs. you'd have to get the answers to this very quickly. It's so of the measures now The truth is always so much more interesting than than than the fiction, and and and- and I think, it is just a journalist. Rights are not a scientist situation just remind people of that, but our scientists in this field, you just have a lifetime of material, ahead of you and he doesn't know that did at the revelations are gonna, be so fantastic like there's like like did genomics.
I mean, I know what I'm book about us. That's bullshit, what I know about, but you know, mix inside the genetics. an ancient dna is an important cutting, right now, but where there's a guy who wanted a prominent genetic An armored named David rightly says we're just relax. Gardeners in our knowledge of the staff. At some point I mean as masses assigns, is and is as it on me as the breakthroughs have been there still only just beginning- to understand like how in the genetic code, It translates into biology, for example, in other co, has been transcribed. We now have The three billion places on the human genome transcribed. But what does that mean? What what? What is the code say and how does that code turn into article
Guess and Denis opens a new, and me I mean That'S- that's dead. There's somebody still waiting to be answered, and if you ever get here today, the person. You won't get the big answers. Maybe lifetime paid out for the big questions, but got there so many fascinating questions at all. Within reach that are being answered. It's it's some endlessly fastening as a journalist when you're writing a book about this, and you have to take a deep dive into all the science behind it and just that the history of it. What what is that experience like for you I mean if it seems like it would be all consuming, because it's such a deep field of study if it did, was consuming for me, I'm in this book took me a lot longer than I ever intended. We're going to end People would give it our people will ask me. I had no
conversation. They went like that's right, be talking to some scientists. Yes, ornament, talkative, robotic I, which at once I lied aid anyway, then I'd say I'll probably be done this time next year I mean I was saying that, unlike two thousand twelve, he appeared here. The book is being published it out this. This we saw some pilot. Emmy ended this gonna, get there too. The richness of the story out, I was telling you about a means I was there. Was this interest story about this fossil. The elder skeleton ever found human Amis. I wanted, it understand like the full lifecycle about discovery like how that that the HANS research question was framed in the beginning, and then you know how it works. Is found, interpreted, announced the world and then all the debate, the violets. That's what I want to follow the life cycle of this whole thing through, because to me, that's a really interesting story and they're all these interesting components along the way like in geology and ends, Tom Exton,
developmental biology and in the anatomy of all these different parts? So so anyway. That oblige me to sort of learn all these topics. as that was just a lot of reading a lot of talking to people I'm so indebted to a lot of scientists who guided me out through the geology through the field work through the interpretation of the skeleton. Ah, they I mean they provide aid, service to me personally, but they also, more importantly, provide aside as a service to the public understanding, and I, my cat say enough. How grateful I am to those people where do you go from here mean when you spent eight years working on a book about an ancient ancestor to human beings and then to take a big, deep breath you you do all the publicity work. What where do we go from here
that's good. That's a good question. I'll go back into cave, probably didn't write another book, it I'd it'll, be a different topic for sure. I mean I like in stories that have narrative- and I like stories it in depth and you know this one was quite rewarding- is quite challenging. I can spend that low and every book Gazelle it dead before before I. before I get anywhere but down so what do look at it? now to be some deep history of of since I have to do a lot like to see a little hand out there, Does it mean I like that? how to keep things under wraps until I'm, no there's gonna be worthwhile to do so that will keep on around. But it is something like that. Something
a big big, a big story with characters and with depth the narrative and he used to use them? Based on your curiosity, like what what's intriguing too. well like with our figures, I didn't really choose it in the sense that, like I, serve, sat down eight years ago and said? Okay? Well, what am I doing. As I said, I started off on this other room and then it just over time This story, just sort of appeared in front of me and soaring taught me that early There's another road here that actually might be more rewarding, and it was a kind of law. I keep having to stop and learn about now that the geology and now he's component science is all about Ethiopia. We haven't talked much about that, but that is the backdrop of Ethiopia. While this was going on is an important part of the story at multiple levels are mainly the turmoil in the country that makes it difficult to work there there
is the arm They did this sort of a sentence of indigenous african scientists, from Ethiopia entering the science in two reclaiming a place on the table in a site that has. In some colonialist roots there. Is all in all these components. Pieces took me up, we're not visible, the outset by the sun had had to relevant to them, as I waded through this, again. Believe me: there are a lot of pain and suffering that went into Spock I mean I know it. I know it parts of it her arm sometimes in strike people, has maybe art but believe me that there was like I could have written and dead right some cases, what you
might see it like a couple centre that I tossed off about this- that there may have been a ten page draft of that topic or five page or whatever. That that I needed to write to build on stand it to reduce it, reduce it, reduce it and then serve in already, sit down to just one brick like a distorted put in the wall of the story, but yeah there's a lot of that and that accounts for why it was drawn up process. Both congratulations on the completion and thank you very much for spend some time. I really there are really appreciate it man, I really it's. It's it's a great pleasure. You have a great shout the collective good, I'm still scratching my head trying to think of web, where I fit in with zero Bernie in Kenya, and all these other guys, but I have the feeling I am interested in. What do you think is fascinating? Subject me well, thank you right, you're high five with the things tat is
but if you're so hold up a copy? The book behind you, it's ripe, rang out of your shoulder, so people can get an image of it. Yes, others workers, fossil men is published by Harbour Collins, the William Morrow imprinted. and it is gonna. It's really stand represents around this has already happened right here. A thing to remember TAT is today right, there's nothin yet tomorrow, yet well did the day companies the night that we're filming this come out tomorrow in the tent Our beautiful telegram repression has yet you got your great job. Thank you. Thank you. Take care about. Thank you, friends, opportunity to the show and thank you policy, genius of unit If insurance head policy genius dot com right now to get started, you could a fifty percent or more by comparing quotes policy genius when it comes to insurance, it's nice to get it right
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Transcript generated on 2020-11-10.