Jon Ronson is a writer and documentary filmmaker whose works include the best-selling The Men Who Stare at Goats. His latest book So You've Been Publicly Shamed is available to purchase now on Amazon. http://www.jonronson.com/
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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you might know his work. He wrote the men who stare at goats, which was turned into a movie, an he's done some really incredible documentaries for the BBC and had a great time talk to him, really: smart, really cool guy and fascinating Conversa, and I hope we get to do more of these. So without any further ado, please welcome Mister Jon Ronson, the Joe Rogan experience, trying by day Joe Rogan podcast. By right we live Jon Ronson how it go hey. How are you doing this map appreciate? I'm glad that you can tell you. The number of people have said you should tutor open. The number people have said about God, Joe Rogan Socket about Bahamian Grove, I'm just talking about psychopaths. You have to come on. Well, I'm friends with Alex Jones and Alex Jones, told me many many many years ago, they're burning, effigy's and beau. He worshipping the owl God when I went to bohemian grove,
Alex Jones that's like going, Disneyland with Mickey Mouse yeah kind of my. It was kind of my idea- I sometimes feel that the kind of side lie. I mean this isn't, strictly speaking to a kind of sometimes get a little bit like an extensive Simon Callow, because before that way, back in the MID mid to late nineties, what he was not really famous and and Austin but kind of not that well known outside right- and I was working with this producer transaction- basically, what we we we noticed, something which is that a lot of people on on the Fringes fundamentalists and NEO Nazis and militia people were all had this one thing in common which they were all conspiracy theorist. They all believed in into the evil power of Bilderberg and Humid grove. So I thought it be good to infiltrate those places
but I didn't want to infiltrate bahamian Grove alone because, frankly, I was scared. So we met Alex Jones when he was rebuilding David Karesh is church at Waco, and he said he had a gun how he was rebuilding David Karesh Church yeah. That was the first time I met Alex Jones. I wouldn't know where Randy Weaver, I became friends with the Weaver family who are the weavers again Ruby rich. You know, yeah the company white separatists, and so I've got really funny with Randy's daughter, eight show, and then I went with Randy to Waco and Alex to those this kind of crazy bar there Waco outside the fuck is that what year was this? This was about nine. 90s. Ninety eight, maybe that's when I met him, yeah yeah matter in ninety eight yeah. He was It's amazing I mean I could tell like I drove through Austin with him like he went to buy a new suits 'cause. He was like you know, giving a big talk at Waco and, like everybody, in the everybody in the clothing store was like excited 'cause Alex Jones. It worked
so he was like a big deal in the neighborhood, but but then, but then I wanted somebody to sneak into bahamian grove with, and I asked David Icke first I said go to baby grow. If it is not us with a chance of suspected giant lizards, did he tell you that for real yeah, it's a really did yeah. He said that's where they tried to pull himself back into kind of abandoned all that hasn't yeah. He gets mad if you bring it up. Yeah. Would you can you can get mad mad media? You you get a load made a lot of speeches, yeah saying that people transform the lizard at your own up to that got a hopeless at this exact words of MRS going back a long time. He said what he said. We strongly implied that he believed that it was up to him and goes that they transformed itself. I think you're in the clear, because he gave many many interviews where he talked about that. That was a big was
kind of in the early days of the internet. When you can get away with saying stupid shit like that- and you didn't have a bunch of people on reddit- that immediately could debunk your twitter or facebook when they just knew something that you didn't know and like what the fuck are you talking about forming a lizard. Is it for well one of his his big black piece of evidence that, but he mangrove with with a chance from thousands elicits, was because of this woman call Cathy O'Brien, who do who said that she was a kid not sex slave and that she would be light. Let loose into the gardens of the White House, at George Bush Senior would like Hunter, and that was like his sex game, and so she wrote this book about this called um was awesome, like the crisis of democracy was called the transformation of America, and she said it was a bahamian grove. She was a kidnapped, sex life at Bahamian, grow move, and you know that's where it all happened and- and she was like Bahamian Grove is all based around this. This river and
russian River, and- and so so, that's where the b maker of Remus Face stats it with with with Cathy O'Brien, that's hilarious, yeah, and so I feel like it come be true that Lye George Bush and Henry Kissinger Old go to this club and on the side tonight, it'll put on ropes and half a mock human sacrifice in front of a giant stone owl. I thought I compu too so offended David. I could affect each of the cut to come with me. I do not know, I don't know if it will remember that crazy that you know I we met at Waco Alex Jones. Maybe we should ask him so if code up Alex Jones- and I said two to five- see try to get it to pay your credit, it was light. Is that yeah, I'm going to get a cab we'll we'll get a hit? A cab will get a double rutted f faces, as devil worshippers will confront them good about that globalists, devil worshiping evil.
That was the video he made a video about this, so you were in the involved in that yeah. I was in this video okay. Now I remember you: okay yeah, I remember you, and that is a long time ago, a long time ago we so we all went now will want to be mean grow. If it was me and my to some, the common man and then Alex and Alex, is wifi. Let and I'm his friend might news at six of us and we were like strange bedfellows 'cause other star RS, every fun now Alex and Alex was like. You know well at one point I said to Alex, have you got like a contingency plan like if we manage to get and I'm I'm not your you know your own concerts. Have you got a contingency plan? Alex said yes, and I said what I said he said I'll say to them: don't get any closer and I'm like that's your contingency plan. Don't godaddy got like a threat. Iris is going up,
so it is. He was just going to scare them. Yeah he's going yeah yeah, that's it! I'm good at the close at out with Alex is black. How do you think that far ahead? Us that's a problem yet this, but it really did but put on robes yeah. They really do have like a bundle of sticks that supposed to rep in a human being and they carried it out there and light it on fire. I saw it all with my own eyes, but do they say that it represents a human being like know what they say is that it represents Dolkar, like all the troubles in the world, like all these men of wealth and power. Have all these troubles in the world, I'm going to say it was weird white people problems before that's real. First world problems, one percenter, first world problems yeah exactly exactly we know funny is that ruling the world is a pain in the ass for two, fix the you guys have so much stress. We need to burn a fake person to make you feel better God you guys so
are being a billionaire kind. How do you do it? How do you run the world until it was weird, though so Alex Alex is plan, and this is how we were going to get him. We were going to rent a boat and like say let along the river and then get out and climb up the mountain and get down the other side, and I get in that way I was a kid. This is that this is an ill conceived plan and we met this local lawyer. Cold Rick is that this preppy lawyer, who lived in the town Monte Rio Oaks it until I'm Rick it had been and he infiltrated the mangrove just because, like everybody in the town wants to know what's going on and and Baby Gov, so we met Rick to get some tips on how to break in and Alex told Rick. His plan and Rick said: look if you going that way, you can get yourself killed, Alex wrote down. This is my favorite. My favorite bits of the weekend Alex wrote down on his note pad going in that way,
dash Kale throughout what you need to do is live, go to Eddie Bauer, get yourself some preppy clothes and just walk up the drive. Just walk that's a smart move, yeah, so Alex is like really torn because part of him. He admitted this to me afterwards. Part of him was worried that, like in the wicker man may and rec at all these other people that we are all part of this curve elaborate. Lab to lure Alex into the forest would like he would be the walls. That's so rich trust. His mind said the upshot was Alex and MIKE decided to go in separately to me and Rick, oh yeah. So he didn't trust you that much no, he didn't he didn't didn't have Wikipedia back. Then it couldn't just Google, your anything right. Couldn't Google Maine
We know of your work. Did he know who you were not really. I wasn't particularly well known park. Then I wasn't. Is it safe to say that Alex Jones helped launch you? We kind of help lunch each other and you guys went in there and he Alex given this on Vhs tape by the way back in ninety nine or whatever the hell you got, you guys actually made a tape out of Iraq. Yeah. What alex- and I did this thing- I did a special in Austin, my first dvd of in Austin an Alex, and I dressed up as the Bush is. I was due George Bush Junior and he was senior and we ran around the the State capital would like these, Bush masks on and we have seen that video didn't have a big boo hall and said that they were all like Satanist, globalist, one point. I'm definitely, but I don't know if that made it into the video, but he actually sang a song there Zach This song- I don't know if we've ever played this song, it's so ridiculous, Alex
Jones wrote a song about like the the elite. It had. It was on. The video was on the video and we're all dancing around the Alex Jones Song in the in the markets. This is ninety. Nine ninety nine or maybe two there. It is yeah. Oh, what is this put the headphones on here? What he's saying arm popper put it back to the beginning, so we can hear. Well, that's me doing bong hits, but we sure, as hell don't live. Ladies and gentlemen, from the belly of the beast class into the lies and disinformation, no compromise one day closer to victory, it's Joe Rogan baby should I bought them. This is
public and friends. So this is all. This is the same time right. Yeah You know. I I feel like I nurtured Alex, is interested Moloch by suggesting behavior and growth yeah Purple Loki, I was wearing a style project, t shirt, remember, style, project, style, project, dot, com, stupid, all flow. That's Alex Jones Negative said he wrote it all too. By the way I had nothing to do with those.
The hearings and having that I like, so that we can do it now. That's the only time you very well in Waco. You know way confess and I lost touch them after that. He he he re. Can he liked me again? Actually, after a the monistat goes like he didn't like me after, I wrote my book them, which includes all the stuff about the sticking to be men grow because you thought I was too much of it to Bunkers bahamian grove. But then, when I got the mister goats, he liked me again 'cause. He felt that I was like. Oh, I would like a bit of him with the minister. Goes, is kind of like a conspiracy booking alright yeah. So how much different? Is it the keep going with bohemian grove yeah yeah this? So so Alex and MIKE decided to go in via the undergrowth like ice, so them so they went in through the bush. Is it wouldn't say the Bush is uh and there was a lot of poison oak around. I wouldn't be at all surprised. You guys just walked in yeah man Rick, the lawyer, this kind of preppy lawyer, or actually the funniest thing that
the start of the story was that was the night. Before we were going to infiltrate Alex and MIKE decided to practice being prep pay. I'd say they will look at the account they looked up and down the corridor outside the motel rooms and talking in a kind of effeminate way about micro processes that you, nanotechnology, is the future and that that's how big dog preppies dark yet so then, so then they went in through the undergrowth,
a million and Rick the Loya went up. The drive am I see with with up to sit on such intent and just as Rick said you know, we gave the security guard to kind of. I rule the world type way, I'm just just practice and we were an act like you know, yeah ice teas to say. Yes, we used to rob things ice tea. So just act like you know I could you know you don't yeah, we woke him and there was this bank, my memories, a K. This is big bank of telephone systems that before cell phones. Well, I guess that with cell phones but very few right, you have a kid. I was a big bank of telephones and then the roadies comes. It was like a giant redwood forest and then there were these little com everywhere. I know the camps sure enough hides where it's light will most definitely kind of million a lot little red light, and then one of the cops is called like death allies of something, and if that little red eyes, you know poke.
The thing is that cod Halloween type racks at an end, some of the concepts like Graham pianos and hot tubs. I know all these old men, all of whom the you know, Mister burns, then in the last little trucks going up and down and like a golf carts, yeah sort of more like pass pickup trucks. Rightly let that kind of stuff you get like, like universal studio tools something, and then we saw unless I called this owl stuff everywhere. Now there season now this some conspiracy theories get really annoyed with. What I'm about to say is that 'cause everybody really loves the idea that, like their worshipping moloch, the giant, Phil Owl, but the reason why I suppose I could tell there all these owl sculptures everywhere is 'cause, like it's an owl sanctuary like this little cabins, with like stuffed owls in less like an owl sanctuary's
so and we'll wait. A minute there is is, is, is an owl sanctuary like they actually take care of owls like an owl preservation as a lot. This is a place where owls nest allow Lex. Okay said well. That was if you were worshipping an owl god, though, wouldn't that be a cool place to make your sanctuary where the owls actually nest, when I guess so and less so, you can totally debunk it there. Mister Ronson! Well, that's true, although wouldn't like still wish being a giant owl guards when all the red killer sized owls be like false gods and when I'm busking maybe or you know, I don't know if you have like a great monkey God and the monkeys lived around with a great monkey guy lived, you feel like they were yeah like that with our membership Malick. Ok, I'm with you on that still nonetheless, and dominions greater despicable maggot. I have children.
We were wondering about me and Rec, and we saw this giant. The giant owl right of of everybody's life legends- it's funny. I remember thinking it was stone, but in a few years later somebody else in for trade him in growth. For some magazine I said it's not stone. It's light plus with Paris or something, but but I'm sure there right when you guys were far away from it. I remember screen, like all the: up to it. So is there a security guard like when you walk down? There was one guy setting in a little hot and he did ask anything, didn't ask anything you just wish I could enjoy enjoy wreath, making something where is booming growing in what state it's in north in California. It sits next to this little town called Occidental, there's like a no through road, and then you go up there. Rd North of San Francisco yeah North of Napa is north of Napa and I'm a missing
x in MIKE and a second hey thanks a lot k edit, it will cost me said, keep walking that's. How was I feel at This camera said that race is owls everywhere. Mike said it was everywhere. Did they see out amid the toggle with owls or what I think at this point MIKE was convinced that every time they saw an hour it was like it was my lock related to Jesus fucking Christ. So what we thinking at this point, we think what the fuck I got myself into hanging out with these guys ruin my whole investigation or not, I mean I was nervous because you know the closer you can get this microphone, the better. We don't have our headsets, ok, so yeah I was kinda. I was nervous, but I sort of thought it was kind of fun. I felt safe with Rick. The lawyer. I felt like nothing. Bad would happen to be with 'cause. He looked so rich and prepping and that's like
our movie with things go bad. You hang out with Rick the lawyer. I thought I'd be fine with Rick the lawyer at serve them. The bell rings like gets to dusk, I'm as the ringing of the back I, and if all these old man light drift down to this little pond, I'm they are all set on, like grass one side of the pond and Alex and Michael there like a few rows behind us and there's the giant owl on the other side of the pond uh a member blasted this moment, which I thought was really way yet we This old man comes up to me. I mean this is like nearly twenty years ago, so I remember all of the details but but this old man came up to me and said something like like. I was way younger than everybody else there. This this guy says this your first time and I said yeah I saw you gotta love it burning bird
and then I did this sort of impression of what was about to happen in in the pageant and knows this look of light rail, fucking intensity on this guys face, and at that moment I thought to myself like there's Alex and Moke lie few rows behind me, convinced that this is like evidence that the global elite are blood drinking Satan. And then there's all these, like men of wealth and power who are real fucking into it all themselves. Map into it in a different way. To do Alex are micro into it, but there fucking into it- and I thought I The only sane person in this entire fucking redwood without rectal lawyer and rec, made wreck where the only same I wonder for tenants, dropped off in that place once they invented by Ghagra. Which all dudes they couldn't get it up is not allowed to. Do you get bored yeah, it was. It was a weird way to spend your summer vacation. I didn't see any like famous people, but at one point we pass this display cabinet and
The names of the casts light on that in in the display cabinet animus in Dick Cheney's, nine, oh, yet for sure that high that's by gets his ex. Our hearts have you ever photo of. I think it's Ronald Reagan. At bohemian grove yeah, we might be witnessing yeah I've seen that pull that up Jamie 'cause, it's a crazy photo so. This has been like a weird spot where these guys have gone for decades. Since I guess since, like the railroad came through San Francisco at like, like you know the turn of the 20th century, I think that's pretty much when it started. The fuck started this there there is. There is Nixon's Reagan who started this thing and look at the big redwood behind on some majestic tree yeah. Ok, what what I heard and, as I said, it's been like twenty years since I've thought about this stuff too much 'cause once I put it in there might kind of forgot about it,
but the story I heard was that when the railroad was coming through San Francisco or the rich white Republicans and unlike Bilderberg, this is available. Publican club thought. I thought that, because the neighborhoods you know we're gonna lose elite status would be to set up a private club for ourselves, so they set up the bahamian club in San Francisco and then he may grow in it out for a couple of hours. No, so then this this ritual starts this. You see that a man wearing Leder Susan appears. And like a stage cut out of the giant redwoods and he's got like Lee we've sold over his lederhosen. It's like leaf covered lederhosen. We start singing this like song, and the symphonies there like the San Francisco Sim
Well, there's a video of it. Pull pull, pull a video of Alex Jones at Bohemian Grove because Alex Alex was a few rows behind us and he was filming it all with a camera that toppled over forty five degrees. It is, it is bag. Yeah. He filmed the whole thing yeah. He did it like on a sneak tip yeah. I did Film is early as like, like the pre, show, later right, I mean, if I know Alex yeah shadow Alex, he failed everything and put everything out: saving him, fine, just some. Dude in a row in front of a giant fucking owl yeah. So, right, it's toppled over sideways, yeah yeah, so go full screen. Maybe we get a better look at it, I'm a few rows in front. So then this happens all these men in robes and hurts or descend in front of the giant owl there you go yeah and they had this.
Ritual where, where this papier mache effigy like comes over on the pond in a gondola, They say to it. You know we shall Bernie tonight Dole care and then the this is ok 'cause. He showed up in Maine and they go year after year that they see all year after year, and this happy grove we burn the and then they lifted up and throw it in the fire and it and the F two guys that makes noises. Yes do they have like a speaker system. Yes, is this because I'm is that what you come? I seen the videos that there's an orchestra to your left. I've been fuck knows where the guy in the leaf covered lederhosen at this juncture, but he was. He was like basically sitting on the
in redwood he's getting sodomized by Nixon and Dick Cheney. Ronald Reagan's coaching him this probably about one thousand people in that crowd. The other side of the puns wow. When the fireworks go off, you get like a glimpse of how many people there are there's. Probably one thousand people wow now what are the requirements like? How do you get in there? You got invited. I I met Harry Shearer, who got invited Harry Shearer, Simpsons voice. He was the only person who'd been to bahamian Grove who was willing to like talk about it to me like after we left, and he said he was invited to these were his words. He said he was invite to do the place up and he said he thought it was kinda ridiculous, but here with my interpretation of it, which is basically that it's not evidence that the secret rules of the will to actually satanists who did he Aksel human sacrifice, which is basically the way Alex, was with spending it. But
it's this kind of weird overblown pageant, What I think is really interesting, and I think this is where skull and bones comes into. It is that there is this weird prickly t amongst the elites to create these ancient ceremonies for themselves, and none of them are actually ancient there all only what like one hundred years old at the most but do not for a reason right. They want to create this kind of masonic ritualist in Miliar for themselves. I think there's a way in psychology going on there 'cause I mean you and me we wouldn't well I'm I, wouldn't you wouldn't no, I wouldn't yes, but I I might. I would have to be really up to do it. I have to be under the influence of a lot of different things. But the the idea behind it. I guess is that you get closer You are all doing this ridiculous shit together that somehow another through tradition or through ritual that you buy,
and- and maybe it gives you a kind of mandate to be in an elite. I sometimes wonder whether Lockets Colombo since two is not just about bonding, but it's also about creating cut of specialness fee self right right, right, yeah, that gives you a sort of you know, doesn't make you feel so so uh insecure about the idea that you're, a global, elitist is ruling. The world was nothing about. Gone bones as well. They were saying that the part of the ritual they do like really humiliating shit to each other and they film it so that they all Have this, intelligent yeah, maybe maybe yeah up yeah allegedly of her, but I but I, but I don't know if, if that's true but a benefit that will young Jamie was saying that Tom Cruise might be leaving Scientology. Is there any evidence to support this? I don't know I'll. Look a look at our star magazine. Well that's about as good as it gets. Buddy I'll be good going
There's a lot of power. I think it could be in the movement. Well, it certainly yeah, I mean it exposed what it all deals with. I think with this bohemian grove thing, and is this sort of cultish mindsets, these weird sort of mindset swear. They engage in otherwise preposterous rituals that, to the outside or like to us like we're watching this. I will, God in a fucking bundle of sticks and bear The like this is so fucking stupid, but to those people it represents this thing, they've all kind of agreed to do this goofy together and there's some weird power in that yeah. I agree that it's it's definitely there for a reason would exist in so many different culture, That's the weirdest part about it's like. If you go back to like the Aztecs and the Mayans like they would when they would make these human sacrifices, they would wear these crazy outfits. Bloomed head dresses, and it was all this like.
It will, in the ISIS cans to shore yeah yeah. It's it's bizarre, the the out when people start wearing outfits and engaging in rituals. You know that's the that's so weird aspect of human behavior. That seems to be really prevalent. It's like it's like an isolated incidents where there's only this, you know. If you go to, Africa and you see like or Asia, or you see like these people that have those things that extend their neck. Those little bars those women put like God. What are they doing? What's very isolated? It's only one group of people that do it or the women that put the plates SIRI women that put the plates in their lips like what the fuck is, that it doesn't Sean doesn't go anywhere else like bizarre rituals, but it's only isolate this one very specific area, rituals themselves, like really wacky, dresses and weird things that people do that. It's it's so common, it's it's almost like every culture has them and the people involved
by the way when my book them came out. The bahamian club made a statement. I remember about my book with this uh they said something along the lines of despite John runs sense, objectionable trespassing. We appreciate the fact that he's putting a less kind of sensationalist spin on what he saw. Well, then, what Alex Jones? and so that kind of appreciated the fact that I was being it's hysterical about it than Alex and they, but you know it's uh, overblown it's an overblown pageants, but it couldn't be more innocent or something along those lines they write letter to a squire. By the way it could definitely be more innocent. I mean look with Mickey Mouse parade at Disneyland is also an overblown pageant that could not be more innocent. It's not that's really, literally as innocent as things get. What so you mean Grove could be way more innocent, you're, burning someone
thinking, you're saying I burn the and then you have screams that play out over a loudspeaker. That's not innocent! That's wacky! As fuck it's hard to just just stayed the fax. It would be really hard to soften that up. You know like saying that you have an over sensationalized version of it like is it possible? Like ' it's really sensational or though saying that I definitely had some chuck. This is why me and Alex fell out. 'cause, I felt what we saw was bizarre enough without having to put our aspx. In on it. What was Alex is spin. Alex is been with practically that you know it's possible that You are killing an actual baby. I mean I come in the photos for that property when he went along way out at one point he said one party said to Maine yeah. We over heard these two old men like when we were walking down the road and it's to the main arcs will like separate, but he said at one Did we ever heard these two old men going yeah we're good
Adam elected, and I thought how to know that Alex didn't hear that's, but that's a bit fucking convenient. I thought that's exactly what they think Alex would want to hear he made a grab for who knows what that conversation was about. You take something out of context like that. It could have been a total complete joke yeah. It could be the lack to to let the local shrine has been anything yeah and the boy scouts could mean. Who knows what the they were talking about, like that. Alex is one of those jump conclusions, confirmation, biased characters that off sometimes has some really fascinating information. Unless much I admire about Alex immediately. So friend is a good friends. He so extraordinary broadcasters, crazy is crazy. Is my friend I'll tie right now? Is there was mind, but he's right a lot of the time I mean one of the best pieces of work that Alex did was nine hundred and eleven the road to tyranny, an in that he exposed some stuff from news broadcast. That was really shocking about the use of
agent Provoca tours too, which I always thought was utter horseshit, and then it turns out. Not only is it not horseshit, but it stand. Operational procedures been proven with Occupy Wall Street crowd. They they info traded. The Occupy Wall Street Group and did all is crazy. Shit in the park. We're trying to get people to join the rest them and what the agent provide Victor's did during the WTO protest is, they would they had these peaceful protests and they would come in dressed up and like all black and they had military do boots and they were smashing windows and breaking things, and then they gave an excuse for the cops come in and close down the protest when they literally set up a no protest zone where people couldn't go to work with WTO Badges WTO Badge with us a line through it like saying no video, they were literally telling them. They couldn't go to work with that. On the say, no protest, like a pain like which is completely against ever
in this country, is supposed to stand for right and so people were you know these agent Provoca tours were working for government, and they literally came in to try to break up a peaceful protest by turning it via, and then there were all held up in this one house and Alex documented at all. Now with his own new footage and his own reporting spin, but basically just you in actual news stories. An different cover is by different local news stations and showed like what the fuck actually and these people were all released. These guys were all held open a building somewhere and they knew oh, she did their release. Someone did somehow an you know at first. I was really super sceptical 'cause. I was like that sounds like nonsense, but then you the more you peel away more. You realize. Well, this is something that they've always done. It's like a standard if you've got a bunch of people that are
protesting and they're, ruining your elite, globalist fun like the best way to do if they're being peaceful, is to have people that tend to be. Amongst them start smashing things. Then you have an excuse to come in and arrest everybody and that's what they do. So he. He had a really fascinating video on that showing evidence of that being used before that. There's a bunch of tactic. Your place is not simply as innocent as the lawn Cement is set up to enforce laws and to preserve peace. It's not it's not they. They do do a bunch of creepy, and you know that that's that's unfortunate, but that's when you start talking about conspiracy theory. Well, that seems to be conspiracy fact. It just seems to be something that standard operational procedure, when they can get away with it. What I'm hoping is that, with all this Wikileaks, Shit and all this, it snowed and stuff and all the new details that have been revealed about the NSA and what we know now about
security in the internet in the cloud and it's everything can be hacked. Everything can be compromised, I'm hoping that all goes away. 'cause, I'm being that it's just going to be way too transparent. But you know I don't know, but Alex Jones thinks what they're trying to do is get down to five hundred thousand. He's, got this idea in his hair. Do you read blood five hundred thousand people, the Esr, any grandiose things he says like that? Do you do you think he really believes them or do you think he's like like you know he trying to make something? That's so huge that everyone is going to like draw themselves towards him he's not a liar. He might go further, with things, then I would you know he might not have rational conclusions. He might up approach things with confirmation bias. But when you
in five hours a day on the fucking radio or whatever he does just going over a wacky theories and selling gold golden bonds, dried fruits, they got dried food. Keep the dried food in your basement, you know, after a while, I think you lose your fucking mind now. If you work at a Strip club, you get sick of hookers and get sick working with strippers now, if you're selling drugs all day. The last thing I want to do is take drugs. I think Alex is like inundated with conspiracy, It's like he's overwhelmed. You probably can't see the forest for the trees yeah, it's just call chaos to him. It's all everybody is in on it. So the global elite people turn into reptiles and right burner, towels babies, whatever they can. No man- and I don't mean you have to ask I I love the guy, though he's a great guy. I love hanging out with a lot of fun. We had we we got on better again. This is set after the minister. Coats came out because he really he liked that book right and any me on his show, and then
all of his listeners said I was Les Miserables so for the new world order that Michelle two. Sometimes they say that depends When I say when I was talking to chemtrails got really mad at me, Joe Rogan's, Shell, debunk, Chem Trails idea, ok, didn't even debunk. I just fucking science, I mean it's like really simple science behind what happens when a jet engine passes through condensation in the atmosphere. It's like. It's been they've known about it for fucking. Ever this idea that they're spraying clouds like what the fuck man their controlling you with these clouds. But when I did this, Sci Fi Show we talked about, and you know I brought in aviation specialists and I talked to different scientists and I talked to a bunch of different people about it. What we decided to print- or we decided to show on the television show
we are dealing with forty four minutes of tv for an hour. You got a bunch of different commercial, so you kind of you don't spend, I think, to really debunk something like that. You have to like, spend a long time with it and actually show people like actually get a g up in the air and film it and show how this this plane is actually leaving these clouds, because it's passing through a haze wouldn't be too hard to do. If you had a really good budget, but we did have really good budget and it wouldn't be that entertaining now we had to make it like short little snippets which is like a real issue when you're dealing with any of those debunking shows is that they also have to be entertaining and they also have to fit within a format where they have to break every five minutes or whatever this work, commercials, seven minutes or something like that. Whatever the fuck they do. You know they're constantly have a commercial. So it's like you, have these little tiny chunks of information. And it's really just entertainment more than anything
say that I don't see myself a soda bunker, because I think you what I but they've been growth, for instance, was was really it was out. There was a kind of intensity there which, which I believe is very different while Alex felt was going on, but Still art undeniably odd right. I mean it is odd, yeah, yeah and rituals accessories, and and and what reason is that, though I mean none of a certain. But I would say it's this idea. You know you know we loved, is a bit of a non sequitur, but my most recent book is this book about, shaming, yes called so you've been publicly shamed and what have search happens on twitter is. Is we will we will rip Do somebody to a label will reduce somebody to the worst tweet that they ever wrote move demonize, their minimal, dehumanize them? Because we've just destroyed somebody? We don't feel bad about destroying.
So we called them like a sociopath or something right. This is whole life. Mental trick we play on ourselves like, what's it called cognitive dissonance, this idea that we're good people, but we've just destroy sympathy. So how do we make sense of that? All we just say or whatever sociopath or something so is all about. It's all about labeling and reducing Anne Anne humanizing and destroying people that we don't like, and it's also about having an excuse to be a real asshole, like all you have to do, is find a reason why you unleash your fury on people and it's a free shot. Yes, a free shot because of Jon Ronson says something up: there's a million people that could find out about that and they don't know you at all, and so they have a free shot. They'd. Never I met you, there never gonna meet you meet you. They live in another part of the planet and they could
steam, freaking fuck, that guy and they could just start typing a bunch of shit. And it's this weird thing going on, where everybody's kidded themselves into believing that you know you can lead a good ethical life like I can lead a good ethical life, but some bad phraseology in a tweet or something could be a clue to our secret inner evil. What you're? What you'd? Really like you- and I this wonder whether there's some kind of connection between it's about between that and about the rituals that you find a place that bahamian Grove, and maybe the connection is that it's all about. Working yourself into believing that you can do evil shit so like when you give yourself like ritual its color bones of a human grove that make you feel. Oh I'm separate and different and better and a kiss me someday to rule the world. I could inflict this carnage and other people because our different to them better than them
maybe onto it. If we do the same thing in our own little ways, which is like oh well, you know we're better than that person 'cause that person just just misused their privilege or that person just just shy. Look at true inner evil. It's all about cut! If it's all about set yourself apart from people, so that you can behave in in ways that hurt other people, and you don't have to feel bad about it. Maybe that's the connection. While people have a tendency to pilot, It's always been the case. That's the reason why you see like when riots break Now that's sort of exploits that type of pylon. Behavior people will do things. Things in large groups of chaotic moments, like large groups of chaos rather they would they would never do with an individual. You know as far like assaulting people, or I mean there's in instances where gangs of people beat up and killed people and the people that were in
almost didn't feel responsible because they were of many that stomp somebody or kick somebody or ran over somebody. This snowflake doesn't need to responsible for have lunch, yeah yeah, exactly that's a great way of putting it, and I think diffusion of responsibility is a real issue with human beings. When it comes to large numbers many times as large numbers, they don't feel responsible for any repercussions are and of their actions. If there was only two people in the world and to people in the world work they had somehow or another invented twitter they are communicating with each other and one guy you know said something questionable and The other guy quoted him and say Jon Ronson is a piece of shit. Here is proof you know fuck sky. Let's, shame him what's this: let's is only you is no one there, but you we're trying to do. Is there appealing to the bully instinct of people to just pile on and I'm tall because sometimes I think
the shaming people is a good thing. Like you know, it's a long way will, if it's actual social justice, yes, actually writing runs, but the problem is, I think these days were in this really bad situation where people have decided to not differentiate. Between a serious transgression and a nun serious transgression, some nice liberal person who tells a joke that comes out badly, is treated with a similar level of ferocity is like a racist cop. Sunday Mckinney, Texas, video! Well, mostly that's a very good way of putting it. Most people are not living life, even they're, going through life with the deficit and they started out with this deficit by having a bunch of fucking shitty experiences when their children, their shitty parents and bad time in school and maybe they've been picked on and maybe their job sucks, or maybe they have unfulfilled sexual expectations, whatever the fuck it is, most people are going
into any situation with a head wind or a tail wind. I guess it is when someone something behind you right had when is your drive? What with there's bush behind them, but they, like me, accelerates their reaction to anything in there, almost looking for something that they can blame their bad feeling on almost looking for a target to unleash all there and exercise angel angst and frustration and life all their unfulfilled expectations, all of it is on Jon Ronson's, shitty tweet. You know- and I wish she stopped using just like the credit generic I'm sorry, every time you fuck someone else, shitty tweet, but I have experienced it before. I have experience, but I found it adorable I would retweet people and stuff, and they did it to me, but but I always like to unnoticed 'cause. After my public, shaming book came out. Obviously you know like there was a lot of push back in a lot
people went for me, and I also liked it when people went for me in a color ridiculous way. 'cause it actively tweet that one it would make me look good, and I was on my favorite one: was all these people started going for Maine and one person row? Why, and I wasn't. I just stayed completely silent and one per remote. Why isn't donuts and applying to any of us and somebody austral donuts and only applies to man and I'm not fat? Does that mean yeah? I honestly, like I like time subtitles would be upset at you for this well, okay! Well, in that particular instance, and it'll start Justin sucker. Why I wrote is a touch in my book that step defends, Justine, Sacco who's, the the AIDS to eat and remember right on the plane, listen man that lady is probably on Xanax and wine, and she said something that she thought was funny. That would be funny if she was your friend
would be funny if she well. She was my friend and she she sent that to me in a text message. I would fucking laugh No I'm going to Africa hope I don't get get AIDS lol, just kidding I'm white and then the worst thing, and then she gets on the plane's family. She gets in the plane turns off her phone and while she's asleep is like just talk is it to shreds by low sixteen hours, yeah hundreds of thousands of people and one of the most like extraordinary things about it, is that her inability to explain herself became part of their varity. That was that was the tailwinds like, oh my god, we know something She doesn't one person treated. We're about to watch this just in Saco Bitch get fired in re, real time before she even knows she's being fired, and I just kind of think of
anything more than just the not so so I wrote this really pops into you know that make defended her. I think that you know we have gone crazy. We lost our minds in this. It was met in judicial thing. You could possibly think of yeah and a lot of people, as you can imagine, committee checked into that so course yet. So I think it's because they have the green light to object. I mean it's, not the you're, not saying something reasonable, I'd This is what are the most important stores I ever did 'cause like for thirty years. I've been writing about abuse of power like in the psychopath test the pieces of power in the pharmaceutical industry, or you know the worst accesses of psychiatry or psychopath so whatever, but whatever the people abusing their power over there and whenever I like gave talks about that. I'd like everyone would love her. You know it. People would love it and then uh right. This new story, this new book, where I say you know what the people abusing our power now that there us is like we've, suddenly got all this new power on twitter and social
these are massively abusing it and the pushback is ferocious well, because the push package from the very people who enjoyed abusing this power. Yeah yeah we've been talking about this for a while, and I think that, what's going on now with peep, and the internet, and this this ability to communicate that we find ourselves in this newfound Situa, we find ourselves in where anyone instantaneously can comment on virtually anything that happens in the world and if what you my resonates or offends, and it can become a hot button and it just like gets all these ants just find the sugar and they just dive on, and they just swarm. And it's almost like a mindless thing, because I think that what works is an adolescent stage of a new level of communication that human beings are experiencing yeah. I think that this newly both communication is starting off with the ability to just each other, and it's we go into some weird virtual reality place. That's unless people filet,
yeah a couple of years ago, my friend Adam Curtis, exactly forms flip phones and live in the desert. Cut your own wood in the forest that basically, I found out from Curtis said to the who would love by the way, if you don't know his stuffy nose or got it love him, he may the power of nightmares and the century of the Se Gray Duck BBC to assume that I've seen a century itself yeah anyway, Adam said to one time that you know he thinks the internet or definitely social media is going to be like one of those John Carpenter movies from the 80s where everybody's yelling at each other and everyone's like killing each other and eventually everyone flees to somewhere safer. Like the suburbs, and maybe how do you know, I notice myself laying a bit from social media since I was looking at yeah. I never when law time ago, like maybe ten years ago, or so I would argue, with people online all the time
and then I realized what enormous waste of time it is. Also. I realize that I'm not picking the people that I communicate with as opposed the way you do it in real life, and one of the things that I would do in real life is. I would avoid anybody that starts arguments in a shitty all the time people were inside thing is shitty. I would, I wouldn't argue with them. I would avoid them, but on the internet I would like engage these people you know like I'll get you yeah, you loser. You after awhile like this is a new thing and I'm apply trying to it like this sort of same strategy that I would apply to a heckler at a comedy club, and you really can. This is a totally new thing and no one knows how to do it. Yet it's is it we we we, we don't have the benefit of hindsight, to be able to step in yeah we're talking like two thousand. You know two thousand one. We now have the benefit of stepping back and saying well, this has been going on for a long time and now Cortana how to how to deal with people back then we didn't
and I so lot of time had some fun wasted a lot of time and also you get emotionally charged up and invested in these people that, real life. You probably wouldn't want to hang out with them yeah these folks to be with yeah or maybe they are, and I'm just the internet is turning a sensor. It is an empathetic psychopathic fake. As I mean it may be from a minute left at the Stade De Sweet. Well, you would know them first of all, based on their tweets, because a tweet is one of the worst representations of you. Yeah has to be kind of extreme one hundred and forty characters I mean. Sometimes it can be poignant, sometimes it could be funny but like to sum you up from, first of all to some you up by your writing is difficult enough as it is when you're writing chapters in paragraphs without any back and forth it's hard, because I don't think we are just who we are as an individual. I think we are. We are we are based on who were interacting with and how that
works out like that's, who you really are. That's one of the things. That's so important about choosing your friends 'cause, your friends aren't just someone you enjoy. They kind of helped define you and when, you have a bunch of really good friends and you commune it with them. Well, and you get a lot out of it. It changes who you are you become a better person you can give become better person are really good relationship and you could be coming off person in a bad relationship. You know I've been bad relationships before. Why didn't like me and like this person hates Maine? Don't even like me anymore, like what the fuck is going on, and it's because we like to think of ourselves is completely autonomous, but I don't think that's real and does anybody that's really autonomous. I think we all need human beings and we all we all cherish human interaction. Much as you want privacy, you don't want it all the time that choose between no privacy or no people. I would take no privacy every time I like people, the people are great
you know. I don't want to be bothered all the time and that's when people will think the woods seemed great idea. I'm just going to Unabomber and just fucking live in the woods. And no you don't know you don't you don't want do that like we, we literally are a superorganism. We're not like one individual experiencing the universe solely on our own, where we're all constantly interacting with each other, which I this part of the reason why so by social, media public shamings is so fucking traumatizing to somebody on the receiving end of year, because there's nothing. You know to be to be to be ejected from sciatti to be told you not as good as everybody else to get out is like deeply traumatizing, but then the people doing the shaming, they don't think that they don't think that they've just potentially done something intensely traumatizing to another human being that mangled up sublease mental health, so they just oh I'm sure there fine, so they found a
yes, we just shut up, show that fine there's a guy! Please static, Dorko reviewed my book in one of the papers who basically said old, Johnson, so sweet. You know about it's fine, if you, if you a man being publicly shamed, it's fine, it's no big deal there just fine, and then I would look at this. I think it's fucking hell, you know I've gone round. The world mean these people they're, not they're, not fucking fine. Is that well want to carry on doing it or not. You have to fix that. They are not fine. You know people well, a few weeks after that, guy wrote that review some guy in Israel had been falsely accused of being racist, a committed suicide. You know, then Not fine is that you can carry on doing it if you want, but it's a really severe fucking punishment. This mob mentality has existed throughout history, I mean when
go back to the punishing which is in Salem or you know what they do in Africa. If you ever seen these witchcraft, accusation things in Africa, where one person will tell so someone's a witch and everybody else in the tribe believes it and they're burning. People like this, like really disturbing videos, but it's like, is pile on where I think PA part of what's going on is, is a real fear of same thing could happen to them, and so they lash out that one person like with with real commitment so that there in actually a part of the group there in that group. Yes, they're safer that day, yeah! If we can only handle destroying one person- and I got a notice, would just in soccer one person that night, Tweet Idd say
the HIV positive should write this and then we'll find out if a skin color protects it from a. How do you know how many people and after that person know what is right? We would too, everyone was too excited about destroyed. Just stayed to civil Tae Disley. Destroy somebody who is it appropriately destroyed. Just stayed up has got a tell a free pass that night a match of the mindset of someone to think that the best way to respond to someone's, inappropriate joke is to rape them and give the an incurable deadly disease. Adjusting I left totally justified doing it at Justin was asleep on a fucking plane on everyone, and everyone knew that and that's why everyone loved it. So much well didn't she's right, a bunch of other ridiculous tweets like she was like she was trying to be funny. Tweets yeah I've never had fewer than one was. I had a sex dream about an autistic kid last night and then there was something
you know it's just stupid shit. I've read she's fun to drink with yeah. When I had a couple of drinks, so she wasn't fun the first time 'cause she was so fucking crashed, and that is just a couple of weeks later I took years off of her life. Jesus purchased, it the second time. Was she okay faster? The second time and it took her a year with a year. She was basically order a car yeah. She was basically fucked in in the world and us very young. You know notice. Actually, after my book came out, one of the pushbacks was like well Justin suckers. Finally, and she was only like unemployed- and you know deeply traumatized for a year and I'm like for one fucking- joke that last actually yeah oh my god that joke was representative of the hardest part Mary yeah exactly this is what we fucking do and it's such a lie. It's like we're all these fucking Miss Marples, all these amateur sleuths on social media, thinking that we can spot
somebody's, true inner evil to a little bit of phraseology. That's what happened to Trevor Noah and it just happens over and uh Yes, let me shoot I did just over and over and over again it will Amy Schumer and Trevor Noah, though their stand. Ups and especially Amy Amy doesn't give a like you can't that she gives a bit more of a folk. Then I I I I just think everybody who's at the receiving end that she does, but it gives her nap. First of all, she doesn't ever say anything that is indefensible. 'cause, she's, very smart, and also, I think, as a com like everything that she says. That's ridiculous. If you debater on like why are not I mean she plays the role of a dumb person, saying ridiculous shit, all the time, like that's part, of a persona that she'll adopt an abandoned, onstage, Chillida, I didn't abandon the and you know all going in. That's what she's doing it's a part of being. It's like you know,
prior doing the dopey White guy voice. Do, I think, he's really Adobe white guy. Now, ok, my mom she's, a great old gal, no he's doing the fucking character of dopey person. It's easy to mock. This is anything that Amy does when she's. She might not change her voice when she says ridiculous shit, she's she's, clearly being comic and doing it as an art form. So she very few terms are near podcast by the way and Anne she hasn't done it in a little while right, but she's been but she's got her show. I haven't talked to you in forever she's busy, as fuck she's got that movie coming out, but she's very smart, yes, very smart, and so she would welcome any opportunity to defend anything like that. She doesn't take herself. Ridiculously seriously anything that she's very smart girl, but I finished- As a really woman run, wife called me a boy I think he say
this is there's like a serious change going on in the way the human beings act towards each other. Do you like it? No, I think it's really bad, it's stressful, who would have thought Did the public, shaming part yeah? What I do like is the fact that there's a leveling of the playing field in social justice. Yes, this is the office late that side of things. I really like that, but the problem is that you know. Is that day I think the problem Attila list like I went to college in London in the 80s. Sometimes I fail with social media with the social justice movement. It's like the worst fucker who used to hang around the student union now gets to decide everything and it's partly because of that, the one hundred and forty character twitter thing. So basically, you know and student union in the 1980s. We all cared about social justice, but it's like the most unforgiving extreme
soccer. Yes, is now the world is actually setting the agenda and not only setting the agenda on social media, but because the mainstream media is so enthralled, social media and want to get hurt so goes along with it. It's kind of creating an entire society of surveillance, notes and colleges or where people first start exercising that muscle and it's the most rabid version of this issue. Today, it's one of the comedians won't perform at colleges anymore, just got a hard time from a bunch of people 'cause. He said that colleges are too politically correct and Chris Rock is saying the same thing and I stopped doing college- is a long fucking time ago for the factorization yeah. Well, I did a college once and this is a perfect example of it, but this is a guy. This is, sample is perfect, because this is before the internet, and this is a guy that I actually talk to face to face. Someone said you know like I would do colleges and fly into these towns- and you know they're bored so
like. I tell my jokes and then sometimes I do like QA with them. You know just for fun. It's a fun way to like you know the kids get to Ask questions and you get to fuck around and come up with things on the fly and some guy said. Do you know any joke jokes or something along those lines right, and I I don't remember anyone I go. I remember this one. Two Jews walk no bar, they buy it like it's the end of the joke. It's stupid. It's terriblr that joke a guy came up to me after the show and said that joke that you did about juice is very offensive. I said: what's offensive about it. Jews are successful at business. What's offensive that I use the word due to Jews, walk into a bar. They went to a bar, what parts offensive or you looking to be offended or you actually offended, and he was flabbergasted you don't know what to say, because he was a fucking nineteen year old kid and he thought he had his. He was an awkward socially awkward person and he thought this is my opportunity to be right.
Hi. I'm offended again is all these kids supporting each other. Yes, you do. You have the right to be offended if they're, all dumb as and they don't have any life experience, and they they really don't have a nuanced view of the world yet and their exercising this new muscle this new muscle of learning, how to call someone on their bullshit man and the patriarchy on the is Missus since gendered bail, hetero normative bull that you see every day and they're they're like finding this. This opportunity expresses rich and then eventually hopefully they'll settle in and hopefully those sort of as time goes on, they have more experience. Those sort of realized ridiculous that, were you know when they were younger, but it's like a natural inclination to like you know you picked up, and you know you've done wrong something. So when you see it in other people call it so this one kid I said this to me. I mean that was the extent of our conversation. I said it's rigged
looks like it's not offensive. First of all, I don't no, I'm not racist and if I told a racist joke, it has to be really good. You know, and then he goes, we should never tell racist jokes. That's not true. I love you to. If you make me laugh of the really funny racist joke, I'm thankful because you made me laugh. I don't think you would think but everything you say is a fucking sworn statement, an affadavit that you're getting giving in port. I assume that when you're doing the art of stand up, comedy you're going to say things, you don't really mean because they're funnier. Then what you really mean and that's part of the art form just like when you listen to a song. You know Bob Marley didn't really shoot the sheriff, shoot anybody and it's like it's it's it's part of the art, it's making shit up and when you take that away, because people are going be offended well, then you remove all my every movie. That's ever been made Europe Almost every book that's ever been written, you take away almost every stand up, comedian set and you just get you fucking nerve, the shit out of the world and every
he's boring and that's not. The answer is not the answer. I think this is a meniscus order. The reason why I'm so happy to have done the Justice Soccer story in my book curse and I had so much push and each time I get pushed back. I feel more and more happy that I did it like remember. I gave a talk in Norwich. One of the first talks I gave was in our election, England, and some the QA. Somebody said to me something called out: are you a racist and I was it 'cause I defended Justin, and it's like you know, so for thirty years. I'm writing about abuse of power, and the first time I say we're the ones abusing our power, so many hours, are you a racist and then like try to fill it, but isn't that one person is our you're just dealing with really simple thinking like that's just not a nuanced objective. Well, thought out view of
and being what they are doing is look and for an opportunity to call you out on something yeah. Looking for the opportunity to shame you and that's what the problem I have with all this social justice warrior bullshit, that's going on in the world is it's. Manuf its manufacturing a lot of hate and its menu testing itself in a very angry way. Where should be people that are pro gay right pro chans gender rights, pro gay marriage pro so peace, pro choice, pro love pro le wing ideology? You know, there's like do unto others, as you would have them do, unto you this whole idea of creating more peaceful world and the way they to do it is by ruining everybody, doesn't agree with them and shitting all over them and insulting them and distinguishing between what's actual social justice and what Sakana cathartic alternative to social justice like the destruction of Justin, the destruction of justice.
Doesn't do any good for anybody, because she wasn't even intending to be basis. She was trying to make a liberal sister to be like cars going to be like Trey, Parker and Matt Stone right. This isn't someone's going after cop that shot a kid with a fake pistol or anything. You know this is yeah exactly, and this is the real problem and the inability to distinguish between serious and christian and the unserious transgressions What is creating is a kind of surveillance soc, getting a kind of stars where everybody is more fearful. Everyone scared to say things. The great thing social media was how it gave a voice to voiceless people, and now people are fleeing social media 'cause. They realizing that the smartest way to survive is to go back to being voiceless. She, I don't think, that's true. I don't think they are fleeing. I think they're, jumping on in droves. I think some people are jumping off, but I think that what you said the great thing about it is: it gives a voice to people, it's also the terrible thing about it. But I think what this is is
I said before is this is like this adolescent stage of communication, we're reaching this new level of interaction where we can interact with each instantaneously, and that's just never by the way Tesla predicted this to Tesla is smart phones, one hundred years ago, and I I tweeted this quote today. Somebody sent my way absolutely fat sedating. It was not just a quote: it was a a uh, a piece that texel had written in, like the nineteen twenty. It's amazing, where he predicted smartphones like little he described a modern, smartphone scroll down like where his actual words like now it's below that you actually read it, when wireless is perfectly applied, the whole earth will be converted into a huge brain which, in fact it is all things being part of rules of a real and rhythmic whole. We shall
with communicate with one another instantly, irrespective of distance, not only this, but through television and telephone e, like phones with I'll, be able to hear one another as perfectly as though we were face to face, despite intervening distances of thousands of miles in the instruments through which we shall be able to do. This will do this. Do his will bo do people- will be amazingly simple compared with our present telephone, a man will be able to carry one in his vest pocket holy shit fuck. That is uh fucking, unbelievable when you read that paragraph, you think to yourself. Oh my god. You know when we have that way for ourselves what an amazing world it would be, it would be. A world of curiosity would be a world of like understanding strangers of nuance of context, and so half the world and we completely throw where curiosity we throw away New York's. We throw away context, and what we have in
this condemnation well with dummies, but not with everybody with a lot of PETE. Look, I'm way more informed now that I ever would have been if I had grown up in the 1960s like if I'd grown up with 1960s- and I was a forty seven year old man in one thousand nine hundred and sixty seven- I wouldn't know shit. I will be at eight. I mean is true, but I do fear you know I mean I do feel that you know maybe there's two types of people in the world: those people who favor humans over, ideology and those people who favor ideology over humans and right now, though, I deluxe a winning on no, I don't think they are. If you do not know, I just think they're making more noise, and I think that it's it's it's really a matter of who does ideological people or surround themselves with. I think they can be swayed into more understanding nature, I'm we can to so. This is what somebody wrote about my book, which I really agreed with but you know we can decide who to listen to
so just in Saco. The problem was that the bullies, one like every almost too scared to defend Justin, nobody defended Justin at now. Serbia the brave look at you yeah. Well, a woman code, Helen Lewis, who writes for the new statesman, wrote it received it my public segment book. She said that she tried to defend Justin at night. She wrote I'm not sure the joke was tended to be racist and straightway. I I'd straight away. She got this field areas that we are just a privilege too. Well, so she said to her to her saying she shut up. That's what happen not not like everybody shut up and and just on social media, that the mainstream media will got involved. It was live, you know, and I'm not became not the dominant narrative about Justin Sacco was that CBS had a racist, and I I and anybody who tried to stick up for a just got, got screen damn well, almost any defending her in defending are, I would say, she's, probably a little racist, which
you can't really think like that that it's okay to say that if you're not a little racist but in cracking bad joke and saying something like that which is uncertain. Unquestionably, a racist joke, just kidding, I'm white lol right, that's fucking racist! Do you think true son in order to for me it's like a bad Randy, Newman Solomon, Grundy, Newman Song, short people, so people got no reason to live like, but also so I love la is that tongue in cheek as well yeah. It is stuck in shape 'cause. He sings look at those mountains. Look at those trees! Look at that bummer for their marries down on his knees. You know wonder woman will do is that he will acknowledge his own privilege and then do a kind of grotesque Ik dream version of it for comedy. Does that and sort people? Does it in our level a, and I think that's exactly what just in Tucker was doing in that joke. She was acknowledging her own privilege and then mocking it by doing kind of grotesque version of it and the only difference between Justin and Randy Newman was adjusting
just wasn't any fucking good at it right. That's a good point! I see your point, it's hard to argue that it couldn't possibly offend people, but the idea- that. She knew she was broadcasting it to all those people that were offended. I think people do understand what the fuck is going on with goat, say things online. So you know it when the New York Times extracted my book and, in fact check with the New York Times, phoned up Justin and said to her like so before you got on the plane. We use surprise that, like didn't get any replies 'cause. While she was like you know all happened after she turned her phone and fell asleep, and she said I had one hundred and seventy twitter followers. Nobody ever reply to it, so she was using that, like as a she's like yelling into an empty room. Yeah, I still don't have an influx is seeking probably got unreasonably cocky because of that exactly yeah and she got on a plane, it's a probably on Xanax and drinking, which is a lot of people. Do they get on planes? That's like a fucking. This lady was explaining to me that that's she was like, like she was
bragging about it. Like give me a glass of wine, a xanax- and I don't give talk about anything she it was hilarious- he's just and I was like, I wonder how many people take Xanax and get on planes. An apparently talking to people take Xanax is super common like they get anxiety, are going to get along plane and also sleeping pills, people take a sleeping pills and they get on planes to speak in a xanax was when all of this was happening to main, like when the New York Times extract, came out and so noisy sort. My noisier stories ever in the book came out. It was incredibly noisy and I, into the studio to do this. Video, like talking about my book, the woman on before me was a doctor and she was doing a video about her book and she said what she book about, and I said public shaming. It is old, attribute the piece in the New York Times,
Justin Sakona said I wrote it and she said oh wow can't he must be so happy rice. Actually, I'm not happy, and she said why aren't you happiness is Edwards the so much noise and then to censor what he want, and I said so MAX. Parton wrote me a prescription for like 60s addicts of which, by the way, I've had one and a half. I don't abuse Mesonyx battle, fuck, it's easy to medication. It's very easy! To get medication. United states go to the right doctors meeting go to any doctor. I thought fuck not take it. I took that I took ha and was it like, maybe feel about uh. Who is no longer anxious, but I felt groggy and and uh this is way up. What would I rather feel groggy or action? Welcome to America? That's our dilemma! Rocky election. Groggy, anxious caffeinated or on adderall. But then I thought gods like when she said to me. What do you want, like all, I could think of to say, was an x with uh.
Miss like an amazing opportunity. Like I don't know anything, I don't know anything You know with a lot much like way better things than Xanax. I could've asked if you like, really into painkillers. I guess, but you have to like say that you're in pain, so I think that xanax is you could say you have anxiety and they'll give a medication. You know, I know guys who had he went to a doctor prescription because he was a social justice warrior and he said a bunch of incorrect things that people attacked him, and so he had to go to the doctors he's freaked out like He got a taste of his own medison, but that fucker, I saw him like six months later still shitting on people online, like you, didn't, didn't, learn from the attack on him like it's almost like they they get caught up in this get. Addicted to drama of shitting on people of attacking people yeah. It's weird.
No, but since I I mean I don't do it anymore, I do not piling on anybody anymore, even people who deserve it. I tend not to pile in on anymore. I tell you what we I think it still comes from the fact in my book. The sack for me anyway, my book, the psychopath test, I I'm really critical of that labeling culture and really I'm critical of like the fact that the DSM is eight hundred and eighty six pages long and as a mental disorder for everything and and most people. I think, agree with me that that's it's like easy to agree with me about that, but then on social media we do exactly the same thing. We label people and yet the very same people who agree with main about the kind of you know what's wrong with labeling culture in the world go home and do it themselves, and so she I've been really toying with this very strange idea. Lately now this conversation with my good friend Duncan Trussell, and we we we were talking about labels and
in self definition and the sort of imprisonment of definition- and I even words like names for people, like my name, is Tom male head. You know what it whatever and the ads talk. You know you're a whit more and as a with more you know, you're you're supposed to stand for something in this world like that. I think we're Brunson were ronsons, goddamnit you're, a rogue and Steven up boy. I think these ideas of like having a name like uh people like your coca cola. You know your Jamie Vernon, you know, there's I think, having, instead of just being you like, having names even names themselves, like me say: oh well, you know would expect it's that can Jon Ronson guy. You know like all of a sudden. You can be boxed in and defined you're, not just a human being who, sort of like a existing with these other human beings, Uhura labeled human being and that label can be great
you can be the Dalai Lama or that label can be. You could be Donald Trump. You know when you're you're right now, Donald Trump is an easy pile on yeah. Everybody will jump on on the set a bunch of racist things about Mexicans and much a dumb. She during his speech announcement is going to be President he's an easy pilot, and he's also a guy that sort of embraces self definition braces his label so much so that he puts his label on the the top of a building trump towers This is Trump Casino on the Trump this and it's a part of the definition. I think any sort of definition like that officer. Professor, you know doctor, you know how about people that, like Cosby was making people call him a doctor when he got honorary doctorate. Now I guess maybe you know secretly was a big joke for him 'cause. He was drugging people now, allegedly news right now. It's came out. He admitted to two thousand and five in court
I'll show you the article. This just just just happened. Oh, my goodness, he made it in a two thousand and five deposition that he obtained quaaludes a sedative with the intent of giving them to women he wanted to have sex with according to wreck, is obtained by the Associated Press on Monday. The admission contained in records that were unsealed after the AP went to court to compel the release. Cosby's attorneys had repeatedly sought to keep the record sealed, doing that they would be embarrassing. This was a case that Cosby page, the woman off and and because he had paid her off part of the deal part of the arrangement was at the records are to be sealed, so they went to court and while he's now it really three and a half benadryl or something another thing I was reading this the biggest and what a monster. What's this step to implement patience and order of this stuff can vary questions. I think you can, while two
five, I can't imagine the statue of limitations is well. If that's two thousand and five that's when he admitted it, but when was the actual instance, that's monster shit. That's really! That's dehumanizing shit. I think. And we can go that's a long conversation. That's sort of semi related the definition of Bill Cosby, because Bill Cosby is a sort of iconic individual and Bill Cosby as a celebrity, and because of that he was worshipped and treated like a celebrity, and I think because of that worship you sort of an expectation of worship- and also this is total arm chair psychology from a do to went to college for three years and barely paid attention, but the I think the expectation of that and the years and years of that much being a spoiled child. Leads you to be a person who expects that from people and can even justify horrific behavior, because you actually do
saying that you're better than someone the same way. Royalty does the same way. You know people who have not up their life, let the men grow as a reason and a lot of, and I mean I think there is the I think it's related in a way- to the idea of labeling labeling, and you know just You know, that's not a human being. That's a police officer, officer, Johnson! You know you refer to the judges, your honor, you can't go hey and you know I know you're reading off a book, but don't lock me in a fucking cage 'cause. I had a joint turn the court. You will refer to him as your honor. You know me like that. All that stop the fucking when they used to wear crazy, wigs and outfits. What are they doing there? Will there separating himself to do differentiating themselves and their labeling they're putting themselves in a very distinctive position: label magnets,
it's really one of the it's one of the worst things that's happening in this country. At the moment there are in the psychopath test. I write about how these kids as young as one and two are getting low. By Pola, because that would sell enough with the checklists that kid goes to see. If I catch his with a temper, tantrum, I'm and said it's, it's goes high in the Bi polar checklist so then, given antipsychotic medication at the age of light, literally one and two, you know that's how much labeling culture is out of control as a journalist, the question uh I love asking most is- is why you know 'cause. I opens doors, you know why you have to go some earth, but with labeling culture in losing labeling culture on social media, it's like idk, closest doors, labels, closed doors, questions, open doors. Well, they certainly did fine in like a very concrete way. This is what I thought you know. I felt most out of step lately with the whole Rachel dollar shave then 'cause. When I heard that
sorry. I just thought that is so mysterious and com ok, too nuanced and maybe she's, maybe she's mentally ill or maybe she's, not whatever is going on here. This is like really fucking, mysterious and interesting and I'd like one thousand questions, and so I went on twitter expecting that that would be Twitter's response to that have like one thousand questions, but now people are either like ridiculing her or attacking her, like yelling black face or whatever, but there's plenty of people supporting her. Her position is being transracial, but those are my favorite, but those people are odd. Dorable I just thought the fucking, how I can't you know what, after I feel, I've been a journalist for third He is an I'm sick. I don't know where to go with us, but I
I'm really sick of like damage, people being other people's playthings, either ideological blow things or playthings for mockery or whatever and office is nothing wrong with comedy, and Sasaran, Mock Liam and that's fine, but nonetheless so glad further, but number less I'm just so receptive of cruelty, yeah making other human beings are playthings or instead of you know, for whatever reasons, instead of like curiosity. Well, if it was as simple as play play thing, just just straight up mockery. I would expect that you would get some clever humor out of it, but it's hate, there's a lot of anger and hate, and this whole public, shaming thing. So, goes along with that mean there's some people that I follow, that I don't agree with and only agree with their position on a lot of things like a marriage, like you know, equality for all
there's so many different things that I agree with like extreme left wing people on that is really problematic, because when some of them a day up, this sort of social warrior, public, shame, Ming stance, I'm so tall because on one side I want to go after them, but another side. I I agree with almost all of their positions on equality for women and equality for gay people. In a qual I mean there's so many of the positions that I have the exact same stance on but yeah. I don't have this dance on public. Shaming were, if I do, my stance is public. Humor you know, MIKE Stance, Weather Christy says he's going to lock up everyone who smokes marijuana. You know uh, is marijuana so dangerous like Jesus Christ, you look in the mirror in your house: you're, morbidly, obese and you're, telling people they can't have a substance that is never killed. A sing person ever over being
weight is one of the major causes of premature death in the United States of America. Now having a heart attack is one of the major causes. An having a heart attack is almost done directly related in most people. To being over, I mean it's a huge issue, and this fucking slob is on television, telling people that he's going to stop marijuana 'cause, it's dangerous, released, nothing hot dogs in his fat face like to me a guy like that has to be mocked because it's it's there and that's my job. Just like the fucking I'll, the wounded, antelope and it gets close the water hole it can help it. It's gotta app? If I'm a comic- and you say something stupid like that- and you are just as blatantly op is target like that is a dangerous person in, in my opinion, because he's a person who could dictate policy. He personally make laws and he's a purse. It literally can lock people up in jail, yeah get he can get people's freedom taken away yeah. I I ii a punch in the
and you being fun a and there's nothing. You know I'd I'd, be a real dope. If I was going to stop being against things like that, I guess you know what what my books against is the disproportionate yeah this month blue don't deserve what bullying is piling on mean I mean it. Is it's also having a lack of There'S- a lack of perspective that come a lot of these pylon bowling things like the was the Womans name again Saco. Just the Rachel Dolezal thing, first of all, she handled herself very well on Matt Lauer yeah. I say by the way that me sort of saying all that stuff on Twitter was right at the beginning before she said anything, I was let's say that we don't know anything about this woman. You know we don't know anything everyone's jumping to conclusions. Nobody knows anything, and I was just like her scream for that and she had some other issues, though that were exposed as time went on and one of them is she's a plagiarist, oh yeah yeah.
Plagiarize some art she selling. Some are that you clearly plagiarized and she's just Duceppe If she lied about her background, she said she was born at T b like she's, just not a truthful person and so one thousand people don't enjoy their life. You know I've met a lot of kids when I was young that came from really fucked up backgrounds and those are the ones that told like the real big lies, and I think that a lot of those lies were because they didn't like their reality. You know and that's it didn't ask to be with people like that. You know there is a mystery right with people like that, you like, so what happened? Why do you feel that way? What's going on? Where is that virtual dollar Charlotte the minute this break some social major everyone just like fucking racist shut, the fuck there's no questions. Were black people get really angry because she's appropriating disenfranchised segment of society. There is already been stolen from from white white people, and I had people tweeting me to say,
you know, you're a white man. This isn't your story, you don't have access not allowed to have an opinion 'cause, you born with the right amount of melanin. Your skin. So your mind is not working right. Would they but this is your story. You can't come into this. This is Chris. This isn't your story, that's bullshit! Well, I felt it kind of was my story because I've for thirty years I've been writing about trouble. People and I've come to conclusions about the way you should regard other people at the human beings with sort of interesting q, rusty and compassion, not cold, hard judgment, so that that's where I came that story. It's also that you saying that it's not you're not allowed to have an opinion, or it's not story. That is what you're trying to do. Is you trying to silence anybody? It doesn't agree with you, everyone that is a human being, that witness is a story you fitness some public thing is taking place? You absolutely allowed your opinion and if
we're not going to allow people to speak up about things and have opinions about things whether opinions are informed or uninformed, that's all going to be sorted out in the wash. But to say it's not your position to talk. Well then, you're publicly, I would say yeah, I you know exactly what that is. The opposite of this course is is democracy. Yes, I mean I was reading people. I went off social media after all of that, because there was so much screaming and I was treating people basically, ok, ok, let's goat John Rhe concern into saying something outrageous and then we can get him, though they serve yeah. And I was like- I say that, though you know what they say. That is because the young have decided This a mystifying reason to create an incredibly stressful world for themselves, add, I think they realize what they're doing, but the Rachel Dolezal thing was to me is a perfect example of how ludicrous human beings are, how ridic it's our society is, and how-
this woman is like. First of all, the NAACP was founded by white people is something why people don't know, and black folks weren't even allowed to hold office until one thousand nine hundred and seventy well at the cotton club yeah analog. Well, it was actually founded by get New York City Intellectuels. I believe I hope I'm not doing this wrong, that they really It was in response to all the lynchings, and you know they were like they were just compassionate, intelligent, aggressive people that were trying to figure out a way pass. This horrible situation that the world it found himself in post slavery, where there was s resent men and there's, there's Lynch lynchings and this to the chaos that is the south, and you know I think, we're still dealing with the reverberation the repercussions and the reverberations of it right now, with this confederate flag debate, that's going on all throughout America. Now it's like
it's just sort of kind of waking up to the fact that will fuck man one hundred or so years ago you were the people you know and the people that want to be able to own people had a flag and these people death flag on a car and drove it around on tv, and we didn't think about it, yeah. You know and now we're thinking about it an another record. So I was always disappointed when the dukes of Hazzard was onto your favorite because of the fly no just 'cause, it wasn't as good as wonder woman about barber This is the cat attachment, but what about Daisy Duke Wonder, was pretty fucking hot. Two eight. I spent a lot of time with the Ku Klux Klan. You know for my book them. I I discovered this politically correct faction. The Ku Klux Klan in Arkansa Watt. Yes, that run by a guy called Tom Rob who decided that the clan had really bad image.
It's got to do something about this recently now. This is not mid nineties this out and about in my book that- and why is he back in the news? No there's another group, another faction, the Ku Klux. And there was allowing black people and they wanted allow black people in Really. Where is the kind of thing that Tom would have done? In fact, Tom was accused by other white supremacists of kissing a black baby and he acted in where to get here to issue a denial black baby. But I went to my lips. I went to TOMS House and he directed so he banned. I went to his big annual convention and he and like the robes and hoods whoa there allowed to wear robes one day here and there a lot and yeah and they're allowed to burn across one day a year. Oh my god yeah, and it was the day that I turned up and they were who standing out this giant cross it's lying on the ground and they couldn't because they're will so rusty. They can remember whether to soak it and then they said or razor
then so can that's Salerno starting around and then Tom comes over and they go to and we cut do we soak it and then raising Torres than soaker at Tom goes. It's ok and then raise it. How the hell you gonna lie so currently take care. You that's how okay as if to say, I'm so sorry the by members of such idiots, not Tom, preferred May to the class, my god that's a door yeah, I many and then they had. This kid is gotten and, world in this kind of personality skills. Workshops like like Philly got this multiple choice like which, and some weaknesses most apply to you. I always remember that one of the strengths and weaknesses was mixes easily but normally would be like a strength. But if you're planet it's going to be a weakness and then another one was warrior and one of the Cmon was like going well. I don't consider being a warrior to be a weakness and then
the person doing the test was that why she being a warrior, can be a weakness and he it was warrior is worry, oh god yeah! warrior. Are you a worrier? I like the says that the English too yeah hi, I think this man, I'm a worrier. I see yeah well, I could see someone saying I'm a warrior, but I couldn't see it as a question. Are you a worrier yeah? I would see thing the question to be a little more straight for like do you worry a lot? I've got, I've got to say in a kind of genetic most put choice, question and answer thing. Watery, I would we like it out once I have it there. Are you a warrior? Yes, sir, I am I'm a warrior for the White race. I'm not helpful. Warrior now This is the reason why they burn the cross. It's across they can't across lighting not across burning, and it goes into glass, half full sort of thing. I think it goes back to the Scottish are believe, is all to do with like I
but remember they told me, you know what it's like being a journalist like you know everything for short amount of time and then we move on to the next door. You write your story, forget it all. I've got verbal memory. Anyway, I've left so it's like being a podcast or to we've talked about things. You know, we've done six hundred and sixty seven episodes now, so we got to six hundred and sixty seven. Who did you have to miss accepting Trussel, actually turning these fake evil he's great yeah. We could play evil, one time I was. I went on a road trip with the clan from Harrison Arkansas to Paul long journey like seventeen hours, I was in a car for seventeen hours with the clan. At one point, Tom turned to me the leader and is it can ask you a question and I said what and he said, do you think weird wow yeah and I was my god? I think you in a transitional phase, this between weird and not weird, oh
interesting, so you're playing like psychological, close in the car with games on them, but it's is in a transitionary period like what did you mean by that? Well could see what channel you know, trying to do an image makeover to be more politically correct. It didn't really turn Indeed, we feel that by people are inferior to white people to be really clearly feel that well, he would probably call himself like a white separatist, but he doesn't actually I'm enough. Matt white separatist, like Randy Weaver in their fur death, are nice people them Tom, LOS Randy Weaver, whose the Ruby Ridge Guy right here is wiped separatist. I really got. I got a well with the weavers got really where Rachel's daughter in that story is kind of a fucked up right like he was they had a house alone in the woods and they were killed by snipers right yeah. This is a really bad story, so they were. This is the first story if it did where I feel like I cut it,
twisted it rounds that the people who would normally be the villains with the good guys yeah people are normally the good cars with the villain. S felt good about that. So, basically, their family is like you know they believe in Bahamian GR. Compelled to bed again. I I when I am, try to imitate Bilderberg one time but and got chased away by the Henchmen Hutton if this time to tell that story, it was a plan Ok, so so they moved to this open up in the words on top of them mountain in Idaho, Ruby, Creek, Idaho and Randy. Would hang out at the local area. Nations with the family that was his big undoing was that he would take family up to aryan nation. So we're just you know: a fucking nuts like violent, skinhead, nuts and Randy would take his family up there for like picnics and away dead, nice and so on. So aryan nations like pretty much every whites Prem assist. You know, group in America was heavily infiltrated by by undercover.
Officers and they saw Randy and so his family and could tell that Randy was less crazy than the other people there. So they appear good strategy and said you wanna become an undercover, informant and Randy said. No, so then Mandy thought that was that, but then they sent a guy to ask and it is sort of a shotgun. So he said, ok fired, so he sawed off his shoe, gun slightly below the legal limit. Like the guy pointed at him and said no soil off there, so we sort it there, and then they saw we've got you. This was an undercover cop. You've now committed a firearms offense you will go to jail in less you become an undercover informant for us. And Randy being uh being a twatt said no fuck off, and he could have embarrassed the feds in front of his wife. He said: look at those two guys over there guess what they just asked me to
true and so randoms like an idiot and any he locks himself up in cabin with his wife and kids and dog and then, and so they, They surrounded the cabin the ATF, and this went on for like a year that they say cameras in the trees and surrounded Randys cabin and one day the the the people got too close to the cabin and disturb the dog, and the dog starts barking in the dog chases. The agents down the hill and and his little boy who is twelve years old or something Sammy chased the dog down the hill with a gun is Randy like an idiot at armed is kids. And so will run down to the bottom of the hill and agent jumps out and shoots. The dog kills the dog say, Bobby says you killed my doggy sonofabitch and starts shooting wildly and the uh
don't shoot Sammy in his arm and basically shoot his arm. Nearly often Sammy Yells, Darden, coming home dad and starts running up the hill and the ATF agent, just shoot Sammy in the back as he's running up the hill, just in a sort of volley of gun. So to sum is now dead, this story doesn't get any better. I should tell you companies now dad's row and they get Sammy's body sit in the shared and then the next day. Oh, one of Randy's friends- is there an as a shoot out and one of the agents of Geico Bill Duggan gets killed, toes and I've got two dead people you've got a dead agent and you've got Sammy dead, the jury is always been artist to the agent was killed by Randy's friend or by friendly fire so and with the next day, Randy goes outside on FBI. Sniper could lawn hurry it. She shoots round
in shoulder, so Randy runs back in and Vicki Randy's wife is standing in the doorway holding her baby and uh sniper shoots Vicki through the head and and kills her, and they pull Pour Vicky's body into the cabin an and a seed starts like a sixteen day siege or something, and that at the roadblock down at the bottom. Kind of where the militia movement started. Like all these local militia people form at the bottom of the road block and for days and then discover that Vicki's dead and- and I mean I've, seen some amateur footage, and it's just so sad and- and I become really good friends with great show who's, Randy's younger daughter, who was in the cabin full of that time. And in the end the government admitted responsibility and paid each around his daughters to the million dollars each and and their killed. Randy know
Sister alive Rosie now yeah Randy now goes to gun, shows where you can have your photograph taken with Randy Weaver five dollars yeah I how much five dollars he sells himself. Quite short, bargain yeah ass Torkel figure. So that's so one of the people who visited Randy's cabin I visited Randy's cabin with Rachel and another person who visited Randy's cabin was Timothy Mcveigh shortly before blowing up the Murrah building in Oklahoma City. Have you ever seen the conspiracy theories on that about yeah I I visited Elohim City, the place which we know about right, the place where you know uh. You know. I know I've got a kind of mutation for being a debunker of conspiracies and and the reputation is when warranted in most cases. But I've got to say of all things I I investigated when I was doing a lot of stuff about conspiracies the one where I thought this is a bit. Fucking was,
Oklahoma City, it's more certainly, fishing what's most certainly fishy is the efficacy of that bomb, the bomb and that they use the fertilizer bomb that blew half that building apart. When you talk to bomb experts they go. That is like really really unlikely. They said that the amount of damage that a bomb like that that's made out of fertilizer can do is nothing in comparison to what that things like and also that building looked like it had been blown out not it had been blown in but blown out, meaning that there was bombs planted inside the building, and then there was all these news reports as and uh, Alex stories all these news reports that he played these clips of where they were talking about FBI agents. Removing is- big from the building, and there were more than one bomb and then they had this. You know this narrative that they
send it on Timothy Mcveigh and was the other guys name. Terry Nichols Terry Nichols yeah and that it was this fertilizer bomb and remember, there's like there's all those they were looking for. A guy from Iraq, and there was all this like different That was going on in the news like right after it was over, but then It's settled on the story that he had done it and they done it all with this fertilizer bomb. But it's weird because I mean I don't have an answer and I don't even have a theory like who could have done it. How it was done or what would have been done. All we know is someone blew up that fucking building I mean if it was just him and Terry Nichols. It was just Timothy, Mcveigh and Terry Nichols That to me is no more crazy than it was a bunch of other people that planet bombs inside the building. It's all a heinous act of horror and murder yeah. The get the way. It thing that we discovered when I when I was doing the Oklahoma story was this place called
their him city of you. Have you heard of this place so I've visited Elohim City, the old Lee, put this is like this kind of white separatist, stroke, supremacist compound in the Ark, so Oklahoma borders in the Ozarks spooky spot. Yeah, I turned up in the audit the river dance for Maine. Oh Jesus yeah. I just been chased through Portugal by the Bilderberg group, and I bonded with them over that. I told them the ideal of it back to three days but about the Bilderberg yeah you an older these order that crowd back then this do you go to pick and I said yeah. I've just been chased by the build up the group which I was uh in my book them when I was to infiltrate secret societies. I went to Portugal with Jim Tucker the right he worked for this magazine called the spotlight, which was run by this kind of white separatist group called the Lib
the lobby in Washington DC. Basically, everybody kept telling me about this group called the Bilderberg group that no one had heard of back that only only real nice aficionados that to build about back then and much in the same way that I kind of loan I feel like I popped. The loan Salix Jones is correct. I was sick, a lot he gave the will to build, because that was the first lap mainstream writer to write about it. 'cause, I'm saying that there's a script called the Bilderberg group and they secretly rule the world from insider put room, and I said if you are big Jim Tucker he'll tell you more so so I found out Jim Tucker. And he said yes, true. They always meet once a year to five STAR Hotel, with golfing facilities. That's why they were the world and he said you've caught me Good time something out of like sub spade I got an office with addition. Blinds anymore trail barely smoked. Like eighty a day I only had emphysema, which made him sound even more like someone else in marketing, he died a couple of
lasted a of longer than I to put money on, in March, and I thought you'd be dead by May, but actually lasted about ten years yeah unit out recently like couple years ago, and it was like ninety six so Jim, said he said yeah I've discovered where but, like my secret sauce has told me that their meeting at the Seaside Park, hotel golf resort in central Portugal and uh to fly over there? I apologize for my semi american accent. Doing here is not going to fly over there and whether the drain pipes and get in and confront in red handed going about their covert wickedness. So I said, can I come and he said. Ok as long as we use the term covert wicked, I might be slightly exaggerating you might put in English spin on there, but it basically I'm pretty sure he said he was going to class at the wickedness sounds like a white sir premises whenever anyone that's how they talk so we've blue there, so they're, Jim Tucker, flew to Portugal and sky
walked around the Caesar Park Hotel and we decided our cover story would be like he'd be, like a sales, would be salesman, but we didn't look at anything fucking salesman. I was like an early 30s. You know. Skinny little to a Scotty was like this big southern gentleman. So we look like really fucking, especially yeah, that cake, if I could be like a story boy and that we relax scouting Galata talk to waitresses and stuff. This was the day before the Bilderberg group was reportedly going to arrive at this hotel, and then we left and we started looked in my rearview mirror and there was a car following me. And I'm a the chase ensued like through the. And I say it chase- I was going thirty miles an hour. So so we say, but I keep thinking I kept thinking If I speed up he's going to speed up it's going to fucking chase,
so it's very obviously as far he wasn't trying to be sneaky now. Well, I stopped the car and he stopped his car, like behind me, so I thought I've got to say something to him. So I went over to the car and I like knocked on the window and there's a guy in dark glasses in the kernel, straight ahead and I'm knocking on the window, and he refuses to look at me like obviously his orders were to follow, but don't him page like I'm suddenly in a world where an big followed by somebody. Who's orders are to follow and not engaged, so I freaked the fuck out, so I get back in the car are Iphone up. First, I thought up. The wife and I say, I'm being followed by the Bilderberg group, I am fucking terrified and my wife goes. Oh you're, loving it yeah, I'm not an error,
a Christmas embassy and have found at the embassy- and I said, I'm being followed by the Bilderberg group and then the one for the british embassy goes and then she was gone and online did you take a shower and then she says: what do you want to build? Discuss do do they know you know, do they know you're? Here I mean: what do you? What are you doing here an I said? I I'm essentially a humorous journalist out of my depth. Can you foam what I also say to wear. To my shame, I didn't put this in book about about order this my book them. What I didn't say what I didn't put in my book was that I also said to her. I said I'm a humorous journalist out of my depth, I'm a bit like Louis through and she's, like oh, like she said of not may and I'm yeah, but actually Louis, often
bites made as an inspiration. I swear to God. This is like my last day on earth, I'm about to be killed by the Bilderberg group viruses. I'm telling the press officer for the british embassy in Portugal that Louis actually speaks high. If May sedan, and then she says she says this is a. She said. This is that this is not the best stuff like thing to happen. That day, she said, but the Good NEWS Um is, if you know, you're being followed there, probably just trying to intimidate. You intimidate you and the danger. This ones would be, though she don't know we're following you and I'm thinking. First, how the fuck does the press office at the british embassy know this and they what if these p, they are the dangerous ones, and I just happened to be like nah Schlicher spotting them like I'm anxious person. I I will spark like I suffer from anxiety.
Say like I will spot if somebody is following me right right, yeah so anyway, so then she Go back to my hotel. And the woman for the british embassy phones be back and says that she's spoken to the Bilderberg group, and they've said that nobody is following me of course yeah. So I'm like he's back find the tree like I'm by the pool, I'm going he's standing behind the tree and Chico, will just sit tight. I'm sure I'm sure it's going to go like so. I went down to the beach Jim Tucker but all of this by the way is loving. It is loving every fucking second of this. It's his dream. Come true. I sure I go down to the bit am petrified. I A band in the story line drive back to England from Portugal. 'cause, I'm afraid. I'm going to get likes talk to immigration yeah, I think pretty much seen gotta get the ferry from Barris uh. This is like a two day drive but fuck. It so
and I had a cameraman with me, David Barker 'cause. I was filming some of this through documents. She he convinced me to like stick it out, so I went to the beach and then I came back to the hotel and I swear the God these two men in dark glasses sitting in the lobby of the hotel and as soon as I walk in, they both rap brochures and start reading them and I'm not fuck, so I go up to gentile So there's these two men in the lobby and reading. Process and they're only pretending to read brochures at Jim says How do you know- and I said you can tell that demeanor and then let open gym, wrote all of this up for his conspiracy website. He lightshade scrap this conversation at he said I said to run soon. How could you tell and rots and replied you could the by this battle- and I'm not I didn't say spell this- is to be there. What is a boat builder burger smell like the
and that that had summoned smell like a power surge, and that was basically it, but the next day we we we went back to the hotel. I stood at the bottom unboxed older. These people, driving the Drive Henry Kissinger David Rockefeller, I ordered yeah and they all did turn out Vernon Gordon who was Bill Clinton's lie? behind you know like bill. Clinton's lie man in the background, so lots of people. In the background, Is there an official explanation for the Bilderberg group yeah but well much later on, like after this happened, I managed to interview three men the Bilderberg group, including the secretary general, and including one of their founding fathers. Who is this british politician who still alive, call Dennis Healey, who was a big, let labor, position in the 1970s, and he said, and I believe him the builder Berg was set up after the Second World war.
Because I was this big move against ideological politicians like Post Hitler that we do in anymore hit. Let's so, let's cut to create this sort of globalist. And will do what order. I mean. You know that the phrase new would order, I think is, is true, have a word trying to create like a one world government where business would be more important than politics, because business people are more trustworthy than ideological politicians. I think that was. There that was their thesis back then so is kind of centrist, almost kind of liberal. In a way, If you buy that Jon Ronson, I got a bridge to sell you in Portugal with I think that was where they came from, but, of course, what they did in account for, or maybe did account for it and didn't give a shit. Was there ceos would be just as fucking, evil and an and malicious and ideological in their own way as politicians, and so that's why build Berg became less, can mourn affair.
Simply became the more in the various thing yeah Think of this, only if there's ever going to be one antidote for power is its information. It's it being able to expose all the dealings and secret? organizations like the Bilderbergs or, to a lesser extent the bohemian grove type folks. I think the only thing that sort of mitigates that and diminishes. That is everyone. Knowing about that and more people choose me. No more people know about the build birds now than ever before. The Bilderberg group is like something that will people will say it. Don't really know alot like I'll say it. I don't know much about it. I know that really important rich people meet Then they discuss things and every single persons urban president has met yeah, I said actually to the Secretary general of the Bilderberg group, and I interviewed him schedule Martin Taylor ICE Did you get so many like up and coming politician
and so end up being, like president or prime minister, and he said thank you like he took that as a compliment I like it a way. Could it starts the next and Dennis Healey said to me like the idea? Yes, Darth, fussing and Dennis he said, and the idea is to get these rising politicians and introduce them to the heads of business and hopefully influence them to be more sensible and more globalist and less less national or whore them out yeah yeah, the Emerson network. I mean no question no question. No, all these places exist for a reason I take a bit of caretta. I think my book them was the first time builder Berg like was ever disgusting cut if mainstream the mainstream world and then shortly after May. This journalist called Charlie Scout turn cable on his another sort of mainstream writer for the guardian He goes every year to build a bird now and partly a result of him and partly as result
they suddenly Bilderberg is discussed in the mainstream world. But when I went to build a bird, now that loads of people, like turn out to protest, Bilderberg and so on and they've even got a bit of a website. Now I think in a slightly admits existing now and they didn't use to they kind of have to write yeah exam for nation thing. Yeah says partly to do with with them the parties to Charlie Skelton you your book, the them- and you know I'm very fascinated by extremists- and I'm very fascinated by I'm very fascinated by the spectrum of human thinking and behavior, and that we're all kind of terrified of people that are on the far end in one way or another, we're terrified of like extreme lefties or terrified of extreme righties.
Did you went when did you? It was anything like really revealing or unusual about that journey of trying to write that and and it in your own mind, did you try to think what things I try to do when I watch like ISIS videos more watch like Radical fund analyst Islamic guys talk, I tried to imagine myself agreeing with them an being one of them and being happy to be one of them. That, like you, know, there's there's some appeal and some draw to being extremely confident about what you're saying, even if what you're saying is absolutely ridiculous, like stoning people for hummus reality, and he see all of that happening on social yeah, which I write about in the new book. You know you see this kind of joy in approval that mutual approval I'm not sure I think it's a problem with twitters. It's become like a sort of mutual approval machine that we surround ourselves. People feel the same way we do and we approve each other and at such a great thing,
if anybody gets in the way and says I don't agree with with what you doing here, do you feel from Rocha sleek angry about their bodies, scream them out. And yes, I this kind of mutual approval that goes on in both on so major and also an extremist groups. Don't you think that people say things a lot of the things they say they say knowing that people are going to approve, so they tailor the things in a way that they lick their finger and put it. In the end they catch the wind like ooh the winds going this way, I'm going to say something She puts me on the moral high ground. You have to get a lot of re tweets, yeah, yes, and it's it's it's. I think it's kinda dumb maturing. I mean you know, like you said before you know I come from a social justice. We
so I believe in all the things that they believe in right. I believe in gay marriage. I believe in all of those things, but at the same time I feel kind of uncomfortable when I feel like there's a kind of ferocious conformity going that you have to you have to say like every time somebody dies you have to I'm in the one Robin Williams died like I was. I was doing a bit as out I was promoting some show I was doing or something address ten. Well, I didn't know Robin Williams had died, and so I tweet it like something some show I was doing and I got like a kind of you know fifty people to be easily to to me basically saying how dare you to promote something when you know, we also upset that Robin Williams just died, because I had noticeable moons and there's that kind of confirms again that kind of our ip conformity I send it doesn't everybody has to the rfp and it's all good, it's all coming from a good place. It's all coming from places
teaching us how to care and teaching us how to like level, but that's not because how do they know that you didn't know or how they know whether or not you knew I didn't know, but really comment. I mean you can't be expected to be uh first of every single news story, especially something like a suicide, something that comes on. It's not like something you have to pay attention to. Like you know, a military operation that we're all aware of now. This is a random celebrity decides to take his life, could you possibly be forced to know about that? The problem is, you know like on on social media. We see ourselves as non conformist, but what this does is create a kind of of a fearful conformist world. Well, you have to say what everybody else to say: yeah we're corp conforming to conformity yeah. It's like, I would see people that were you know they dress like rebels, but they dress like the same revels there
Typically unique, you see someone who's got, you know, their hair is dyed pink and you know they don't give a fuck but you don't give a fuck like everybody around. You doesn't give a fuck like you're wearing a uniform. You know it or not. You look like someone's going to Catholic School, like you might think that you're some sort of a rebel but the real rebels are indistinguishable from everyone else and the way they press in the way they look. 'cause they're, just people now where there are no real rebels like a real rebel is just someone who has their own opinion. That may or may not go with the staff, opinion that were being suppose. Those two that we're supposed to absorb the id of conforming to nonconformity is so ironic, though it's like the one you are rally against is the one thing that you don't even realize you are becoming yeah and it's a you know the the the negative by products of all of this update. It makes people fearful it makes people shut. The
up and also what is it declares war on human nature you this, the reason why I really to ride the public saving book, because I I I felt like war, had been declared on human nature. Instead of trying to workout why people transgress, you know in a sort of compassionate way, it it just, it just destroys people for transgressing on everybody, transcr So is every human transgresses when we so ferociously destroyer the people for transgressing, where she sing off really significant realities about humans, which is the fact that, if, if we try to understand each other, it would make the world's more compassionate, and we would understand why people transcripts bill yeah. I think that what we're talking about two is you're, not talking about rallying against someone who's committing horrible atrocities
is committing crimes against humanity, torturing, people murdering people. You know you're talking about differences of opinion, yeah in some people's transgressions are so serious deserves to overwhelm them and they deserve to be defined by him and we're all like sort of in commiserating and we're also in agreement we're all sort of bonding together on it's like hey like as humans. We were we're not going to tolerate this behavior, because it's evil, yeah yeah, yeah but this is all a long way away from the question which was about kind of hanging out with extreme groups and so on, and then I discovered some things that I think people hadn't known at the time was that they were all conspiracy theorist. You know that was what United the Ku Klux Klan with the Islamic fundamentalist Group are hung out with called who had Jeroen. I spent a year with this islamic group. Could Omaha Jerue spent a year with them
yeah. I became like there the chauffeur they said to me. Oma Bakri, their head of the group, said to me. After a few months like I have let you into my life I've. Given you much, I want something in return, so I was like wow. I disable. Can you drive Mister office world 'cause? I need bundles yeah. What do you need to go? Photocopying done like crushed the pilot state of Israel, so I become like a show. First, up driving him everywhere and yeah that was awkward. You go home. Did you see when you said you were them for a year? I don't know how many lives like a couple of miles up the road from me. I don't even get up in the morning bye honey, I'm gonna go hang out, yeah, I'm a fundamentalist, hang out with those, and I need to buy some collection boxes, Bahama cities. It is to be driven to the cash and carry out the door. That's a very scary organization. This was three nine hundred and eleven I'm. In order most of the stories I've told uh today, uh from my book them, which was pre nine hundred and eleven and
so, less scary, like people thought they were ridiculous, like not that much that happened at that stage, while I was there with them for the year, though I mean all you know. Now so many like suicide bombers and so on, and so many journal Oscar, yeah. That's mean that could have been you easily. If we're dealing with a decade later, yes, or even a couple I mean with Daniel Pearl. So that was pretty early stages of the Iraq war right, yeah, one thousand and two or three it's only four That was the first one man that was the first one that had the video yeah. I remember watching that online against my own better judgment and hasn't haunted. You have it so you can We get past that one and what's crazy, is that when it had such an impact, and then I've seen a few of 'em since then,
and they didn't have nearly as much impact it's like slowly, but surely you get numb to it. So maybe not the Fiscus. I've never watched any of these videos, but I was in Brooklyn, and the taxi driver told me that he watch is like all of them and add. I said I've never watched earlier and he said. Well, then you really shouldn't watch Daniel Pearl yeah and I haven't watched anything. So I don't know what you meant by that. There was a lot of conspiracy theories involving that one as well. There was a lot of conspiracy theories there was that he was killed by the CIA in order to keep people out of there and justify our attacks on islamic fundamentalists and that they had killed him. He was going to reveal information about all sorts of different shit and there was like a whole. Video dedicated to describing why these people were not Arabs. Their accent was wrong. Their size was wrong. They were built more like American military people, conspiracy theories, it's uh,
I it's a good madness are conspiracies. I mean you know. I got chased away from Bilderbergers stuck into bahamian grove. There are conspiracies and there's also stuff like Operation Northwood, is where the joint chiefs of staff at sign that the paper saying we're going to try to fake attacks on american civilians were going to arm. Cuban friendlies in attack want Enamo Bay all in order to get us into a war with Cuba. So it's not like it hasn't been proposed, or it has been even act it out like you, what happened in the Gulf of Tonkin, be there real real? Is that actually do happen even in its own little way? My book, the Minister of Goats kind of proves conspiracies. It proves that They would finishing your book, sorry to interrupt you, but this difference in your book and the movie. Ok, so I mean I never actually went to Iraq, the Ewan Mcgregor carts and it's kind of based on the go through a rack in the move
in real life. I just hung around at military bases in America, so for Maiden, Fort Bragg, at the end of the movie, you Mcgregor manages to walk through a wall and I never managed to walk but I didn't know the movies counted tongue in cheek yeah, the books more serious. The book the book starts off with the kind of comedy of all of this crazy stuff. They were trying out in the 70s and 80s latshaw kill guts just by staring at them, try to learn how to be invisible, which, by the way it off to up to after a while they adapt to it. They went from invisibility to trying to find a way of not pinks eighteen, sunlight arts, yeah. I said like camouflage, but no, I invent onion interview this guy, who is a military guy that was work on their remote viewing yeah, who, who I would have probably met this person, but his name is ed.
Hey, yes, the light waves. Okay, I'm at that, and he went psychically spite the look best months, but let's not soon determined that it was the dinosaur's ghost a dinosaur's is already really said, he's a character whore, who show me pictures of hot girlfriend yeah. He was one of the main ed Dames Joe Mcmahon ago, like These real life stories are not russian way over his head to his baton. Over said so and then maybe remote, viewed that you know if your psychic spy, I tell you what being a black up military psychic spy isn't this glamorous as it sounds very stressful, stressful plus you've got bigger blacker see, you've got node light budget, you cut a cut, you cut, you don't you know a lot of coffee machine if to bring young coffee into work really yeah. A couple of the remote view is told me how annoyed day was that because they were black coat that to bring their own coffee into a plus. What does it actually mean to be a psycho
expire working for the US military? What it actually means that, like for twenty years, you go into some room at Fort Meade and try and be psychic, there's kind of a shit job. I interviewed another guy, I forget his name, but we actually tried it out and try to remote view things. Did you have any? Did you get? Any luck. No knows me in this guy dj growth, the who's, a yeah, yeah yeah he's got to run to God, yeah yeah yeah he's a a debunker skeptic, and he and I were on the same page like you know, we came up with some random shapes, were supposed envision this area and then went to the area, and I was trying to find hits and man I mean you talking like angles and like fuck anywhere you go. That's man made you're going to find ANG rules that are similar to this, and you know we picked out a few colors that were like super common. You find those colors. We can get some really lucky hits, but the thing about all
should we were wrong with it is all about like it just don't think too much just let it come to batteries plus scribble, shit down and so mind. Blowingly dumb and the Ed Dames Guy was telling me that they actually had found. Some, I think, was a sound a lot. He was saying sorry for Kerr member correctly, because it was all nonsense to me at the time. Yeah, but they didn't go after him because they didn't want to win the war, because I didn't want the war to end, because the people at a vested interest in keeping the war going and that was sort of, is a the idea behind why this remote viewing wasn't successful, but he was citing all these different instances were remote. Viewing was successful. Man I don't know, but yeah. I remember one time they were looking for Noriega General Noriega and the remote viewers were like call then to find Noriega and one of the remote viewers amount of the node. Actually one of the remote viewers, psychically divined that
Angela Lansbury knew when Noriega was that bitch yeah are what I don't know. What I don't know is whether they actually ever asked Angela Lansbury order. What I discovered, though, if it remote feeling I wouldn't want a written. A minister codes, goats 'cause. I found the remote viewing thing a bit boring, but then what I discovered just you asking people was there was all this other shit going on like they were trying to fast for a month trying to burst clouds just by pointing at them try to kill goats just by staring at them and and and not suffer so fun to may end, and then I discovered after, like a year of of light into paying these guys. I discovered that light. There was a lineman really crooked line, but they lied down the last between somebody's, crazy, indefinite, nine, seventies and eighties, and some of the kind of exotic could interrogation techniques that were happening at Guantanamo Bay. I'm not too great, so in the book, 'cause 'cause, some of the same people like there was a kernel called John Alexander who is info.
Moved in, like exotic no sound blasting in order. Nonlethal weapons and laser guy should have only show actually he's incredible guy. So the minister goats, the book sort of stops funny and gets dark. Was the movie kind of stayed funny and kind of didn't go into the darkness and that way how much money they spent on that remote? Viewing thing I went for a long twenty million dollars. I think twenty million dollars was there any one piece of evidence that they could point to. That was like not every so often like a unit would get sick of it like it was being run by the uh. I don't know the the da or you know the Us Army or military intelligence in the net, get sick of it and unload normally Not viewing right is that James? Ok, that's not him. No, no, that's not a damn! It's his website. He's older gentleman that it ended up back with the CIA.
In one thousand nine hundred and ninety five, the CIA's greatest weapon, has the power to change your life forever. Oh so now you're using it and look, Have a live support. Gal look she's pretty too! I need lives more calls. Pretty girl won't have an angry black guy. Who could beat your ass nope pretty white girl? Is that funny? Sweet? Okay, me, I'm smiling at you have beautiful eyes. Do you need lots of call me sugar how to find your dog hey something interesting. You know the guy, the first guy who ran the remote viewers back in the very earliest days of remote. Viewing was a guy called Sidney. Gottlieb and he was the same guy who ran Mk Ultra in the 50s laxer all the cutter poisoning people this packing people streets with LSD, going off to Cuba to trying to assassinate Castro by pulling like a bomb in his cigar or poisoning is wet suits, so this really dark CIA shit ship that was happening in the fifties was run by this guy Sidney Gottlieb
and he was the same guy who run the remote viewers in the 70s or so it's kind of interesting. That is interesting well without a doubt. They've definitely experimented on people to try to find out not that control them. That's one no question: there's this other operation called artichoke. I became friends with Eric Olson, whose father was Franco said: who's the guy who purportedly is given LSD by the CIA and then jumped out of a window in New York and killed himself well. Do you know that TED Kaczynski was a part of the Harvard studies on LSD yeah there was a german documentary called the net that sort of highlighted this, and it was all about his party, the patient in the LSD studies and how it pushed him off the rails, and then he went fucking crazy and when it went off to teach at Berkeley saved all his money from teaching and then went to live in the woods and Kendall. People who didn't complete Sica is LSD. I do I do not know. If that's the case I mean he might have been, but the Kaczynski thing is pretty well documented that he was a part of those studies
you know, I mean I have a friend whose sister is out of her fucking mind. She went on a couple, lsd trips and took way too much and to this day, It was like seven years ago to this day, she's all fucked up, so it can. Happen, especially if you have if you're mentally unstable to begin with, and you get dosed spiked, you know it's totally possible. I mean people have a slippery grip on reality. Any really traumatic experience in any real anything. That's like super perturbing to your state of consciousness has the but will set you off the rails and away that you might not be able to recover from mean it is possible and they did a lot of fucking exponents with LSD with all I know was worse at the not there was a single artichoke with a would like experimenting a. I believe this is being verified, the experiment again and getting people hooked on heroin
in withdrawing the heroin making them do cold turkey as a means of getting information out to them yeah, and that was not related to M K. Ultra I mean yeah, you talked about consume, conspiracies being true, and purchase a conspiracy that was true, yeah there's plenty of those are true. When look especially when you're dealing with the cold war and this terror full terrible thought that, Soviet Union was ready to drop bombs in your children any day of the week and that they're doing things like this and that you know the Nazis had been doing things like this, and we know about all the experiments of the Jap and as it did in the rape of Nanking and with a horrible things that the Nazis had done to the prison. Is war. I mean I'm learned some American didn't Mk Ultra STAR, or in the early days of Mk Ultra some Americans were some american soldiers were kidnapped by the Korean. So then there
been on tv. Like said we renounce America and they would try to workout like how the Koreans out. My memory is really sketchy on this, but then they try to workout like how the Koreans are managed to brainwash these three american servicemen so easily, and that was one of the reasons why they started him will try, I might be getting confused, but that's one of the reasons why I wanted to ask you about your work with extremists, because I always wonder like is it appear like when you're I mean obviously you're, not a white supremacist or an islamic fundamentalist, but when you're with them for a long period of time when you're embedded is there any draw. Is there any somehow another? Is there any pull towards? Like making an inclination as their attraction to uh our ideology, you know not
the two that ideology, but what I did always like light throughout my writing career the times, I'm I'm at my happiest time. So I think the story is really working is when something shifts in May, like I spend so much time with conspiracy, theorists and then suddenly, I'm being chased, the Bilderberg group and I go fucking nuts and like I've, become like paranoid and that's what I know like at the bottom of my brain. I know that like what's happening to me is terrifying, but the fact that I've gone through this really big change means it's going to be fucking good piece of writing, and that happened in them and it happened in the psychopath test to actually there. I became completely drunk with my psychopath spotting powers like I went on, of course, to learn how to spot psychopaths, and I got so drunk with my psychopath spotting powers that I changed and let me Friends were saying to me like you've, really changed Peter Straughan, who wrote the screenplay for the most stare at goats, told me he concerned about me because I was so convinced I could spot psychopath.
Everywhere. What do you look for when you get nuances of language? The first half of my book, the psychopath test, gets hurt, teaches people how to spot psychopaths and then the second half becomes like a course retail to not get so drunk with the powers that be to do a little psychopathic, but, like nuances of language, you know, there's like a twenty point checklist where it all comes from lack of empty they lack of remorse. I went I started meet black ceos and doing the psychopath checklist on them to see? If it's true that give you more likely to find psycho at the top of the trees in the bottom I'll give you one example. Is that true yeah? I think that is true. I think you're more likely to find psycho pass it there at the top of the treason at the bottom, because capitalism rewards psychopathic behavior. What isn't there Definition to that a psychopath is someone that has power. Where is a sociopath someone like there's some
of a you know the host soccer and sociopathic missiles artillery yeah there's a lot to to pay out. That is to a different psychiatrists and psychologists, we'll use the terms I mean. The upshot is that I don't think there's any real difference. Some people will say there's a difference, be help to bring their own sort of analyses situation, but in general, you're talking about a kind of a lack of empathy and neurological locket and today, with its neurologically, whether it's the child to be a sense, another big match. You have to pay two months as people, but I could become a classic example from the book. I I I went to meet this haitian dictator, CO, Toto Constant in J sale in upstate, New York and Matt Matthew terms before, but I met him in jail and he kept I'm saying to Maine. I want people to like me like. I really want people to like make up and saying that to me. So. Finally, I said to him is another weakness like wanting people
like it was not a weakness and he said no, no, it's not a weakness, because if you can get people to like you, you can manipulate them to do whatever you want them to do yeah. So I said so. Are you the sort of person who doesn't really feel like empathy is at? No? No empathy is a weakness so that that's uh. Well, that's clearly tell tale I've, I guess he figured like fuck it I'm in jail, let's let the cat out of the bag, I'm not getting out of here and also sometimes they're like like. I said this would all KGB spy. I'm at one time like I said: well, you a bully at school and he said yes, yes, yes, there was a bully. He said it was english he said I would get out from behind a tree and had to have it like. My back would have bricks ness and I've hit somebody over the head. Jesus Christ and I say separately police are only get the bullies. So I said, and how did you feel about that, and I said I felt good
and I said- and how do you feel now, like all these years later, looking back on it? How do you feel now? He said I still feel good and I said so you not the sort of person who feels empathy and he said you've really got to the nub of what kind of crank I am. He said when a dog dies like one of my dogs dies, I feel incredibly upset aracri, but the human beings that I've hurt and killed the fellow yeah. So if you can get them being honest about their apps incident, that's one here that what I do- and I don't- I mean I do, but I don't want to know their around man yeah something disturbing about someone who's, just not willing to ever join the community they live amongst you and they're just trying to predators and prey. You know that we see the world in terms of predators and prey and it would be foolish not to exploit weaknesses in others. You know, I think there
we are psychopaths out there. There was some people yeah. That's, I think, a lot of people. One thing I don't like about the sort of psychopaths button world is that they they're not interested to a large extent in what turned somebody that way, because it just really interested in the idea that the status of the species out that surface of the species, there aren't quite human. They look human, but there is kind of like in the lizards right there's people out there, who've adopted human form, but they're, not quite human, but I'm really interested this is other psychiatrist. I met CALL James Gilligan, who basically says all violence is an attempt to replace shame with self esteem. So these people were like so battered during their childhood, so humiliated so abused that they'd, and regain some self esteem by committing violence onto other people or violence, I don't also I don't like statements that are so absolutely it is a big statement drive but as a kind of humanist
I'd like that, because it's giving some humanity back to violent people. It saying you know this is you know it comes in a place of damage. Where's. The psychopaths boxes will basically say none of that. Just let the looking at this a song yeah. You know what I think this honestly. I think this truth in both camps. Well, I think there's certainly some people that are like that and there's some people that are violent just because they're angry at stupidity. Are they angry at aggression or there? They just need some release in their life and their Penn down with all sorts stress and they can't handle it. They don't have an outlet. You know, there's a lot of people that just they're lacking an outlet, and I I'd like him them to overflowing batteries like a battery that, like I think, of the human body, as you open body, is designed to exert a certain amount of effort to put forth a certain amount of energy during the day and most people don't even remotely tap in the reserve of energy. They say
it down in their body. You know just confirm or their office chair and there there all day at the end of the day they say in their car or they sit on the bus or the train, and they make their way home in which they sit on the couch and they sit in front of the television and their body. Just is constantly storing up stress and it has this desire to exert energy and it's never met with never never has its needs for field fulfilled, and so then in your car and you're in traffic. At someone cuts you off you fucking piece of shit. You have this uh, no believe Aebli angry response, because your your battery is essentially found. There's an opening. You know it's a hole in a water balloon should water just starts, court and out of it. It can't help it. It's like so bent up with or pent up with pressure, and, if you, instead of doing that to somebody in another car who can hear you if you can go home and he do it on social media. Everybody hears you, including that person and it can really damage someone
yeah well there's, certainly you keep coming back to that. That's it's only Chris Ramos recent books and I think it's on your mind for awhile, hey TIM, and if I go, no, and that's a perfect way to end it. This is a great conversation I really enjoy. I'm so glad that we did this because, as I say for years, people have like. Oh my god, you gotta go in general. I think we could have a hundred of these anytime you're back next time. I'm back would do it. When are you back again come around LA graphie yeah? My son is thinking about moving here, so if it does great, if he does, I'm not going to fucking leave beyond another city to my son, I hear you yeah
so okay beautiful man will definitely either way one way or another when you're back in town this to this, can I really really enjoyed it? I have it in, and so your most recent book is so you've been publicly shamed. It I'm sure it's available everywhere, right, like Amazon and all that jazz of bars will be looking after all, that good stuff and Jon Ronson on Twitter jail and is your jail h and that's pretending to be. I am much evil, you're gonna get in trouble. I see this is this is not the John that's not to say that he may, I hope, is not chaining. You we've tried out of the store. Is it really yeah? Oh yeah Jon Ronson Leeds German. Thank you, brother, really pressure. Thank you. Your body for tuning into the podcast. Thank you so much and thank you answers thanks to me, undies my favorite. All time underwear go to meundies dot com, Slash Rogan and get twenty percent off your first
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they go wrong, you fucks were also brought. You buy on it dot com, a total human, optimization website, onnit use the code word, Rogan Save ten percent off any and. Has a blue. It's alright! Tomorrow, the great Joey Diaz will join us, fuck, yeah bitches, and lots of more lots more common. My friends it is today is the fifth of July. Excuse me, the sixth July Monday, the sixth of July, if your tunings into this podcast, it means you made it through the fourth of July without blowing your fucking hands off. Congratulations and how you sincerely hope that everything is groovy much love My friends and I will see you quite soon or you'll, hear my voice or some shit. You know it all right enough. Small talk enough Java Java Java. I could do
Alright love, you guys much love by by big kiss.
Transcript generated on 2019-10-05.