Steven Hassan is an American licensed mental health counselor who has written extensively on the subject of cults.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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and creep were also brought you each and every week by on it dot. Com is the last one. I swear. Oh an end, I t go to honour dot com check it out. Looked around. Prove your state. What we are is a total human optimization company. What we strive to do, give you all the tools of the Separation of the supplements to get your shit together, God dammit optimize. Your mother, fucking existence with supplements with strength and conditioning equipment. With the honoured Academy, click on the link be inspire check out. Some work out check out some diets check out some fat, about supplemented in some facts about nutrition and strength optimization training, a lotta motivational videos cos
at Andrews, actually, physical on it Academy in Austin, Texas and its actual on Jim, it's fantastic put in place to work up and, if you and asked, and you can do no better, so go to honour dot, com au, an end. I t use the code, Word Rogan and save and percent off any and all supplements by God by Odin, my guest today is a gentleman named Steve, Hassan and Steve. Is a cult expert That is his actual title on Twitter. It is at cult expert on Twitter. He wrote a book called combating, cult, mind Control and another book called freedom of mind, and it was very interesting conversational how the sky high was in the moonies who was talked
the joining the Moonies when he was nineteen, and because of that, I think, is really uniquely qualified to discuss the mechanisms of entrapment seduction that called use- and I enjoy the conversation. So please, with any further do check out my podcast with the lovely and talented Stephen Hassan, the will gain experience goes original pronunciation Standing is back in the days it was SAM, the butcher and Joe the barber and, and my great grandfather was a cousin which is a singer. Police
like after would be the term now, and when my grandfather came to L, a silent, he didn't speak English and they wrote it up as HIV Association, and so I've lived my life being thought of as an arab being persecuted at times by Jews, I'm actually jewish women belong the Jews persecute you. I've had experiences where people made yes, because your your name because of the spine did you have to let him hey you asshole, I'm one of you. Well, first, they say means being a beggar and then I'd say by the way, I'm jewish. What did they say I'm so sorry they would get me, and then they say you don't look so far. That comes ask uneasy, but anyway, you know like back with some dignity in compassion and kindness. Yeah, especially for no reason it's not like you did something anti semitic grant the first time I was actually physically assaulted was during the six day war back in the six.
When I was an elementary school stairwell. In Queens New York. You assaulted, because of your mouth necessity. I was assault. By Jews, who thought I was an arab Jesus Christ and they they attacked today and I threw them down. I grew. I grew up in my father's hardware business, so I kind of like knew how to pick up under bags rocks owns so they like, on the floor. In them they said you schmuck, some jewish alike. Are you sure, we are now witnessing it isn't Judaism, sort of adults. So let me just explain what Steve does anyone Steve Hasn hasn't Cason, Hasn cousin? Yes, you wrote a book combating cult, mind control. I got a hold of you because my friend Nick Quarry who used to fight for the? U have see, and he is one who connected me. Do you and he was a Jehovah's witnesses for awhile, and
grew up in it. Yes, yes, he did, and he wrote me really interesting, email about the mine a process of that. That particular called your book batting cult, mind, control is right here. It says One best selling guide to protection, rescue and recovery from destructive cult is Judaism, occult, so far let me just say that book first came out and nineteen eighty eight and had a fellow on the front cover who a little bit like you, but I mean, but that clean shaven Anna had yet the padlock and chain around his forehead. I hate that I told the publisher, I hated it
they met, they created the artwork way that they are work. And anyway, it's been out four twenty five twenty seven years now and hard back and I've. Finally, but the rights back and I've updated it post internet, including terrorists in human trafficking and raw, including people born into colts like the Jehovah's witnesses. So that said, I grew up in a conservative jewish family. The youngest of three, my mom was an art teacher. My dad had a hard restaurateurs musician before that and after that and I really didn't like the Judaism that I was taught, but I was very close to my mom and my maternal grandfather is orthodox and I grew up with a spiritual feeling and connection, and I still feel that connection and I'm actually part of an alternative jewish commune. They fell ass, seventeen years, but the the
Point that I want to say is that there's a whole range and I actually gave you a blow up of a graphic. I don't know if you're going to use it but of ethical influence and unethical compliance and the idea is that one can look at specific behavioral components. And determine whether or not it's a destructive cult or a benign called or constructive cult. So the word called in and of itself tens, big pejorative, but as someone who was quoted in the book called the cult of MAC as a disciple myself in the book told of MAC, he being Apple yeah, that was literally interviewed by this writer, who actually has a website, called the called the MAC, and he said your editor. My editor said I have to interview you and I said what about mangle book about Peters. I said, that's weird hats. Not typical interview? I go what's tied all he said
cult of MAC and I laughed. I said I've been using apple since one thousand nine hundred and eighty two- and I have five max right now, but if you still want to answer few of the app I do believe that people there are certain people that are in a cult of MAC, a hundred percent. I noticed in the nineties when I was on news radio, all the people. Staff other people work behind the scenes. They would you excited when new o s. Operating system came out, Apple o S, and they would talk about it. Like we ve got a new one. Now can be better than windows. It can be amazed. Yeah, there's science us as it is a social science to creating a called. But again I I cite the bite model and site that we know if there's deception, so there's lack of informed consent of the extreme use of fearing guilt. If this information control, where people are being told, you can talk to critics or or defectors, or you need to cut off from family or friends who are questioning you that's I'm concerned about human rights. I think the easiest way to understand
I do as a former called member myself. It's really in support of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human rights. So you're, not necessarily anti called you are. Entire negative calls that have a detrimental effect on a person's life there and I would actually blow frame up a little bit bigger since I've been doing this work for thirty nine years and I would say I'm against undue influence undue how and how we view its illegal term for exploitative influence as compared to ethical influence, where, like a therapist trying to help somebody intimate confront their fears, oars influence of helping somebody who's addicted to something. That's that's cool then, but wouldn't you put a lot of religions in that category, then that classification of undue influence right so the beat you asked me, is Judaism and halt. The answer is, there are jewish calls for sure and there are lots of other jewish at temples,
and affiliations that are not destructive call. So what would you consider them them made a positive one. Positive ones. I belong to a Temple birth sign in Brooklyn Massachusetts, half a billion euro agree a net and my my rob, I wrote the big book of jewish humor and he was a comedian for most of his adult career became a rabbi laid Iraq with his name. Motion, wall docks and he cracks joke. Even during Yom Kippur, poor, who is my kind, a rabbi- it's not it's gave friendly women centred social justice, but we to sing we loved the chance we love to Darwin. We love to do its job Darwin. Is, is religious prayer aka going Thus a door and learn Tell her. I love to go to terrorist study. It resonate for me in terms of my spiritual,
That, sir, they also studied Buddhism and I ever teacher roots teaching me a korean form of men, station and movement is a social artists by women. The korean martial arts. What kind his swordsman swordsman! So does I candour something? something like a real inversion. Unlike the real sword thing we're condos, a real art of certainly disused bamboo stickler became known as set out in his legs ass. It is yes I learned a little bit of that in the movies they were too in the movies that each a candle really training Stacy Jewels, rallies in case they take over the world and everybody's out. Well, I hope we have a chance to chat about the moon is ongoing. We will definitely chaff about the movies. So so you would, you say, dear by doing this being involved in an organised religion, an ancient organise religion. The sack that you feel is positive, would it be
is more of a community of philosophy, and maybe just just about nice group of people that what we need is a nice group of people ass, the funds we are independent, although, where influenced by the renewal movement of Solomon tractors, shallow me watch tourism, where that's the name of of our spiritual leader rabbi who passed away. Who basically said he didn't like the smoke part by the way I like I'm already, he he talked about like updating the tradition for that modern time and that we need the whole point is growth and connection. To other, be things in a loving, compassionate way. It's not about being exclusive. It's not about putting other people down to be on your path. It's about dumb awareness. And consciousness. That sounds like a very healthy perspective. I don't think,
I would be part of a spiritual community after I threw that wasn't super healthy and giving me more than I was taking from it. Are you allowed to eat bacon, and I group people eat bacon? I personally back in my wife loves bacon, but when we are not, we drive to tempt ball. I live several miles away. My rabbi drives to tempt even on Saturday on Shore Botz, woe, but you know more important to show up at Temple, then too you know simple agenda for autism, mystical, so All of the EU of ours rules should serve the spiritual purposes, the other way around that is in all our just compressed into this rigidity, right of conformity and obedience and guilt and shame we're not into Galton, shame, weren't, a joy and love and laughter and helping one another that sounds very ideals far is called go I've I think so.
Because this is a really good one, too good people in Boston call it a called and I'm like, I'm a happily say I've been air for seventeen years from the very beginning of his his invitation to become a rabbi there. And we ve had our ups and downs. But it's it's healthy, its account, above all that the membership make the agenda is not tat top down. You know a dictatorship, type thing: it's it's the membership. And I was the downs: what's the down since there was some person, our the power conflict so tune assistant. Rabbi and motion there was some other how have always so some our struggle, you know, human beings, where you now imperfect,
the key is, is you know if somebody calls you on your shed, that you step back and you lesson and you reflect and you the correct your your your behavior or you don't, and if you don't, then you and if you're apart, community, like that in a leadership role, and they ask you to leave, was what was going on there. In that particular case, she wanted more say so she didn't want to be the assistant rabbi, often Shakespeare, rabbis, oh yeah, we haven't, we haven't assistant rabbi right now, Arrive Claudia, whose musing is rather like the form like doctors area like round by the rabbi means teacher O candies but Female you call ROV, or is it a distinction for a male no, you can call up a male arrive at sea. It's weird me that Euro Anti called guy, but this is clearly
the very least a very strong ideology, with some pretty rigid sort of classifications of things that that further means Judaism as item. I wonder you yeah. Yeah. Liar unwilling Nell DART and nobody makes its fine. It's not a typical interview that our master do, but then again I didn't expect us to do what is it wasn't? Just conversation Trinity interview people? For me I They want to grow, and- and I liked being part of a group- that's bigger than myself- particularly one- that's interested in being Boston where members of the Greater Boston Interfaith Organization, where we are fighting for justice to raise minimum wage to help get rid of a grievous banking fees on Emma Hence we bring in pro power
stint in peace activists to speak. We bring in Steve, Hassen speak about Cults Enzo. Sing programming and I love being part of a commune the end on a personal note, when I had cancer nine years ago, ad hoc lymphoma people were offer. To drive me to the house, but all make us meals, and it was a great to feel like we were alone facing that. That's great. It's what I always hear from people that are in christian churches that really really enjoy their really enjoy the community, and they really enjoy the Bonn that they have all these folks and that it seems coming together and sitting together on Sunday or whenever you doing worshipping the really, in fact, but but part of what's going on. There is your all making this sort of agreement to look at the past
the ability of there being a higher good for all of us and that you all join together in this and that you get this this by. In the same feeling of community that we cannot really have that much in this world body. Don't know their neighbors. They don't. You know the disk of but buddy, listen apartment. Building, it's like fifty force is no fuckin single person, entire go. They get Mozilla, raising an isolated hundreds and hundreds of people. You know we know they are right and that's part of what needs to be changed. In my opinion, the outer world a healthier place where people do know their neighbours and they do offer help. If, if some he needs help. That's the beauty of small towns, the beauty of less people is those people get appreciated, more sort of I got. You know that the EU can have too much stuff then that stuff doesn't have any value anymore or you can have one chair item that like. While this is the baseball glove,
my dad gave me when I was ten and I will cherish shit forever instead of light, Fuckin warehouse, full a baseball gloves mean Jack shit. You I think human things are kind of a warehouse full. A baseball gloves is just so many of us that is, we sort of lose them oh, you lose in appreciation for us, because so many of us that's part of it. I also think that modern culture and civilisation and technology has created a fall, construct of what's important and what's real we're being ness and being part of a family or community or a tribe mattered as a central theme of our identity, Now it's consumerism, men and what status you have at your but how much you're making what car you're driving and we're going on vacation
and this information overload and sleep deprivation that is very troubling sleep deprivation it's probably one of the most studied phenomenon, the effects on the on the mind and on them on the brain lack of sleep and it's one of the classic techniques used by destructive cults by the sleep deprivation, but if one analyzes american society. My understanding is that the average american sleep deprived is now one of the things at Scientology. Supposedly does those folks they have their work for a pennies that would they columns the core It's the it's a sea or see all billion here, contract billion. Unless you sign a billion year, contract yeah- and I want to
mention that I was part of a five day seminar in Toronto. A few weeks ago called getting clear and some of the top former officials of Scientology were interviewed on stage. I was on stage talking about Hypnosis Hubbard was a hypnotist out of the processes in Scientology are straight out of a hypnosis textbook from the twenties and thirty's, which is when Hubbard was reading about it. As MRS like doing auditing such me, yeah, so to sit with your feet flat. The floor in your hands on your lap and your closing your eyes and just being there not reacting for twenty minutes. The scientologists will tell you, oh Joe, you just let your lips or your ear, the Looney quivered. Now you gotta just freeze for twenty minutes. It's creating an altered state of consciousness, known as Tran
and I know we're gonna talk more about Trance. I'm sure there's nothing wrong with Trans States, but when you're in a trance state, your more suggestible need someone who has authority and who has an agenda to implant ideas in your head, because you're, not in your critical analytic, Part of your mind, really so just sitting for twenty minutes of your hands in your lap and your feet flat would lead you to be more influenced by someone to data, since that's the first one. The next one is sitting the Ceta Scientologists three feet away staring into the Scientologists eyes for twenty minutes? That's the next! That's the next one, Jimmy through hot, near position. The next one after that is both baiting, where you have to stare straightforward and the Scientologists tries to get you to react.
Mars and it's like a ball with a red k, really yeah, so their training obedience there d, the decent. The ties in people from normal social queues and interactions and their cultivating a compliant obedient. Tranced identity as assigned I just I didn't know that just staring at someone to staring into someone's eyes can create an altar stated consciousness. Can punch, accuses areas nine July daring as I and all staring at a spot on a wall? That's known in hypnosis language, as am I fixed asian technique, is of very, very common technique for and to sing and all that state of consciousness. Because the eyes are pretty wired to move and scan and when you for an
I should also say: hypnosis is not sleep. It's an alternative consciousness sets best characterized as concentration or absorption and I just want to say one more time. Nothing wrong with that state? I like that state. I do self hypnosis, I do meditation. I there. I do many different altered states techniques. The point is, I'm in deciding. I don't have somebody you alien Aid me from my own inner voice in my own self and trainer imprint me with an a total listing ideology. That's black and white us versus that verses evil. So, let's talk about you, you you got into the Moonies. That's- and you were there for two years- is how it was yet two and a half year, two and a half years, and that led you
To try to get a greater understanding of cults called mind, control and help people. What was your experience? are you a nineteenth century or yeah? I was skipped eighth grade. I was an extra honour soon as a creative writing major queens College, humble brag through the skin. so you're not. I was reading a late hour and I was AIDS. I wasn t utopian novels when I was nine, but aside from that opium novels knows, I was wanting an ideal world and looking around that, what I saw in the media and the Russians are better Gas or ready? I was sensitized, the global climate change way back land, I was in the last draft lottery to go to Vietnam. Anyway, I was, I didn't basically dumped by my girlfriends checks
I do it every time and I was kind of bomb. Then I was sitting in the cafeteria waiting for mine in the new semester to start in three women, pretending to be students dress, like students carrying books, like students asked if they can share my table, and they started asking me about the books and I had from they weren't students. Now they were moonies. Why and it was a deceptive systematic and which I later learned how to do as leader. I learned how to recruit. People band I had a similar situation college to do. You know me well there was a time class or those taking. Is this beautiful, quartering girl, check, glasses or so she was always asking me to go. These parties she's, ok, Inviting me these parties I come to this, come we're going to the cape for the weekend. You should come as well. Oh, my god and I was really busy, some mad, like fucker, you're gonna find a day we're
was busy two hours later on the weekends. What year Lester. A graduated high school in eighty five. Took a year off before I went to Umass Boston wasted three years fucking around there. That was so. It was probably eighty six eighty six archer Christ. I dont know what first they were in because they were hot and heavy. That period of time could be embossed there and they were inviting me to these retreats and they invited me to more than one and I I couldn't zau still competing in my short term, its back, then I was always busy, but I really like this girl she's, pretty hot, and she's, very friendly tools, while maybe she's the one relays, friendly, loving q? Similarity This is how goes down there was an airplane crash in Boston and it was one of those weird plane crash is where the ditch
have any or plain at one time don't shop of an airline. Maybe a wire connect him to it in some strange way But whenever was this airline de Witt the wheels wouldn't come down, you know. Sometimes they make those crazy landings, what a skate across the one way and sparks finery like that. So I sat down with these girls, and we're at lunch in the cafeteria I got you has here, but the plane crash, and they go no. What happened and I yeah I was some mob, though the wheels wouldn't it was tromp airlines Yan. So it was oppression, was his you'd probably find the actual date that this happened find the actual date Trump airlines wheels wouldn't come down so anyway, it's a Logan Airport in Boston, skids sparks that might have been boss moment somewhere else, but I was living in Boston anyway. Boy am I getting off track these, I tell me I was aroused and that then to buy them
so they are what happened, and I said while the wheels didn't come down and let us get across one way was anyone heard I don't know nano was heard they go up Is God praise and I just one why it was his weird: they all clasped her hands together, like this praise, God pray. It wasn't like, while who thank God. Nobody was her, which is like a normal expression, but it was. It was a very pious like a devoutly religious praise, God HO praise Ghana and I lived around. I go pray. Ok! will, you guys do and then and then I started realizing fuck man. She didn't really want me to come to a party like this. I'm going on here and save your soul well and then and then I started to ask- and I said to you think God, like save that absolutely ago, what in God just make the wheels come down? Why freak everybody out.
Cabin weird and then they gotta ugly. No, I mean they never talk to me again. I forget where, I was a deck back than approach at some stupid. Well, a lot of viable jewish christian and Muslim are into Armageddon in early apocalypse is coming any moment. Such good will give people the sign up exactly the heavy pressure scarcity time's running out. If here, if, if the war, old ended tomorrow. Are you ready? Are you telling me I'm well just manner majority or not. The world can end you now they read and sign over your real estate and you're Bronson. So you're sitting at this table. These girls come over the word, even students. What are they doing the school? How to get in they lied, they just walked in, she's colleges, city, university, shitty security programme.
And I believe that the later, when I got recruited into the group, I was told to drop out of Queens College from the called sent back the queen's college, the start of student group on campus to get people into the student group, so they would drop out of Queens College as adorable three slick, so you're sitting there at just table you're bomb. Doubt you broken hearted was a girl broke up and it was an aim which Collar Debbie, fuck and she was a shoe model. That's all. I remember shoe model hygiene rate legs have no recollection of utter name. Is now ok, let's car Debbie so Debbie tears your hard part and sleazy there at the cafeteria alone ramble poor Steve, let now now thought she was gonna, be the one and these gauss com, and where they hot, they were cute,
and they were very flirtatious. They didn't say by the way. Masturbation is a sin and fathers gonna line us up with thousands of people in the sign who's who you're gonna marry, and you have to wait for years. To have sex with them that the monies yet how they do yeah you didn't say anything about the words or an. I said: are you part of some religious group? Oh, no, not at all, we just a group of students care. You know who are concerned about modern. Issues? So what was their approach to you? They sat down to start talking to you. What what? What did they were? They open up with hey nice classes No, I think I had. There was a spring semester. I had a pile of books. I was taking philosophies In writing. I think I had you partner shards. I think I had high diggers being in time and by being in time. Is that thing off While you must be really smart. What is what is it about?
so then they start flattering but how serious? The call is known and other colleagues are known as love bombing pressures, What are you can grow enemy to damn? She was hosty, it's it's all about saving the person saw and now by step, incremental recruitment finding out as much as it can about the listen saying almost nothing about what you are about and what the group is about. Well, unlike you, I wasn't particularly vulnerable at the time. So is a good time for them to get after me, can? I was in the middle of some pretty intense stuff now added of a goal I was pre focused in housing. It rubbed up in some religion, but They got me a couple years earlier. I think they could have got me. I was real vulnerable as like eighteen, so there
our duty is as human beings. We have lifecycle events where we're situation only vulnerable member of a loved one ran break up of relationship in a moving to a new city, state or country ELM ass. There are things that every human being goes through and for me, is overwhelming ignorance of the public to kind of blame. The victims, like you were stupid for believing in this like what was wrong with you. You are weak, but falling for this, as opposed to tell me about your experience and tell me what you know what happened you know there is a principal and social psychology called the fundamental attribution error. I know that's a lot of of syllables, but it basically is the single most important
principle of social psychology when it means is what I was basically saying before when people try to understand. Why other people are doing what they do they over a tribute individual variables and they under a tribute social, environmental variables, social environment variables, Dantin. I think the only correct one of things about a person being older and wiser future their expression, older and wiser, You really look at it like mathematically. Well, what is it its data simulation of data and the understanding of the relationships between events, reactions and consequences, and when eighteen years old. You dont have a lot of data here. We have a few, Things are going on and fur for me when I was eighteen, it was the break up of means girl rose dating and the sudden becoming a man being responsible having to go college or get some sort of a job or some sort of a career in just the just
overwhelming possibilities of the future. And not having any clue. As to how it was all gonna play out was terrified, and if someone came along a bright, then I feel it they could. It got me, I feel, like I've real vulnerable around eighteen. Where I met this harpooner written grow thinkers about twenty announced ease. I was pretty determined at that time. I was ok, but one that said that there are so many different types of structure of called so they're, not just or religious cults, it can be a therapy called minimal called, can be called the personality as very important that very important, because it is a lot of different things that can lock you in and then start to control you and start to suck money off of you and start to could really dictate your boy hey you're in a very unhealthy way, dad is so common,
so many different versions of it. It almost seems to be like a pattern of human behaviour in thinking like a code would you can kind of criteria cheat code in people we ve? periods, a revolution in science and medicine and in psychology and in particular, social psychology. There has been so many a pivotal experiments in the last fifty two hundred years that give us windows into understanding. Our vulnerabilities so, for example, went on counselling, someone who is involved with the destructive called by start start out by saying here and call. Let me liberate you or something in fact, my all approaches, empowering people think for themselves. So I ask them questions with respect, because I really want to about him. In any case, I show them the ash conformity study. Solomon Ash. What is that so
Solomon ash conformity study was framed to people coming into it as a visual perception experiment. Basically, they be brought into a room with several people in a semicircle and be a person in the front with a card with four lines on it: a sample lying and then three other lines of different sizes. Ok, let's say three and simple line: three inch aforementioned five, but everyone is in on the experiment except the person and seat sex and you're going around twice giving the correct answer? Everyone confidently starts giving the wrong same answer and the test is how many people will start to conform.
To giving the wrong answer, even though they can see with their own eyes what the correct answers and that's that he's been replicated thousands of times and the answer is to third start giving the wrong answer, even though they know, intellectually, that it's the wrong answer, because it feels to uncomfortable all to be in the room in his added that the testimonies they give when they are asked whether they them shoot. Assuming the interview these people out, it's a little late assets and confident I even show a date line and old Dateline episode where they asked Anthony Pact. Canada is one of the foremost social psychologists taxi. Do the studies they could film it and this that they start out with this asian woman. Who is the heroic resistance? Who gives the correct answer, but she's grimacing as she's, giving answer. Even though she knows it's the right answer. Because of the social forces, we
have mirror neurons. We want to fit in to the people in the room. It's just human nature. Bizarre people survive exact way. Clan behave exactly, but it's hard wired. So I showed that video that that experiment- and I always liked to ask people to tell me something- you do, if you were in that situation, to scientifically reality test that situation scientifically, reality, Tessier, meaning meaning one year this room everyone saying a five inch line, is a three inch line when what we want we issue, let me ask you, Would you do because he you have the data? Now? Ok, you're you're, occult expert You would I be yet another measure it right, but you down You understand what's going on right exactly, but if you ask me prior to my induction into the moon? Is that I understand the ash conformity study or the power of the I would, No I'm an individual s right, I'm a non conformity
warmest thy head. The bumper sticker question authority run the ponytail, and you know that We're totally unique right in your revel totally so anyway. After the ash conformity study, the Milgram obedience, study, Stanley Milgram did a test at the time, the dominant theory and psychology for explaining how the Nazis good do what they did was called. The authoritarian personality and Milgram said I wonder, for Americans would do the very same thing and he developed this ingenious shock Box, which really was set of switches ahead,
electricity at all, but it sounded electrical and he basically would bring people and tell them that doing a scientific experiment. That's very important that tests, memory and punishment and learning and set people up into a situation where they thought they were giving an electrical shock to the person, the next room and it was well tape recorded with and it would increase. Fifteen votes from mild to moderate, too severe to extreme two x x, x, x and there'd, be a guy in a white lab coach acting very proper. Who happened to be a high school teacher? Who is moonlight few Extra Box and the test was how many people would electrocute a fellow human being in an hour, because an authority figure told them they had to because they had made a commitment to do a scientific experiment, and the answer was two thirds
yeah. I saw your lan listened rather to radio lab podcast on on that very thing. It's it's in fact, is a movie that's coming out about. It called the experimenter and the next study that I'm about to mention the movie just came out of it. The two ago called the Stanford prison Experimental fills belonged art, oh yeah, who is one of my mentor trying to get him? I was turning and when the pod cast, but also the country when you wanted to come on, was really bombed out. Well, try to come back and applies amazing. He of course at Stanford called the psychology of my control for fifteen years and use two chapters of my original book in it, and he was also present the American Psychological Association, but he
so in his experiment. He randomly divided guys and two guards and prisoners, and he did basically controlled behaviour, information, thoughts and emotions and people started having nervous breakdowns in some of the guard started because link sadistic and instead of saying you know what I don't wanna do the experiment anymore. They had gotten so sucked into the experience that they that their only out was to have a nervous breakdown. While it was extraordinary So when I'm helping people understand what happens in the Scientology called the moon, he called the tm called or any number of other destructive calls. I want them to flirt tm cult trends in that premeditation. That's a cult really big time
But there was just like a method of like cleansing your mind. I didn't know that there is even a cop behind it. Doesn't our Vichy MASH Yogi? Oh yeah? This is not on the people practice it the best practice techniques of transgenic meditation alone by them so they called so the answer is you don't need to be in room with other people to be in a mind, control cults, but it can get inside your head and create a new culture identity that presses your real identity and its not healthy, live a very cursory understanding, transcendental medication meditation. So if you could, please tell me what exactly? Does that mean. So, and I have the story of a woman who was raised and tm in chapter six of the new book Gina Catania. So, first of all, there is
thousand or more ways to meditate and there's not one way that everyone has to meditate in fact, neurologically. It's very detrimental for people to do for some people to do a mantra meditation, whether repeating it over an hour It actually increases anxiety, really Psych Buddhist meditations, where they oh so, grab meditation the point, as is that it's a tool for training consciousness and, ultimately, depending on your level of training, you want to not be a victim of your thoughts. Were your feelings. You want to not only develop a perspective and wisdom consciousness. You wanna also get out of the entire frame of self dialogue. Ok,
in total being this, but any group that says you have to do it our way or else or if you're, having bad reactions. They say that's good you're on stressing keep doing. Zoah trends. Dynamo take another read so well when you say bad reactions. How so ticks TED aches barking like dog. I've zirconium from some JANET relating there personally I wrote a book about champions and some of the net negative after effects and what you need understand about a destructive called. Is that that there are many levels if you're just doing a meditation and you're not doing the advance than their next advance than and then becoming? So
a bit and then then bowed that's all and trends detrimental. We, I was ended. The end Marguerite. She was saying if we didn't, if, if they didn't have, forty thousand city is which many people were hopping around thinking, there were levitating to where the world would blow up so he was using the whole fear trip thing to me: raise a lot of money to get people to be these devoted yeah. This oh you flying its yes infringement. How dare you today. This met these people flying and your claim bs forgot their hopping. None other mattresses, dude. I think a picture when they're on the up see their flying. We got the proof, someone is just like your poohpooh magic, have ears Jimmy scene. It seen yogi flights, adorable, it's a, whereas these fools. I want to plug a lit up by many of us here, but you this, I mean, no effort at all right,
You don't have any Diana. You actually editor show on this and it filled put his legs Lotus and hopped? What's really funny is well made, amazingly can put his legs. Lotus puts it may ways. Ackland guy is getting tired, so is. Is hops. Let's go back to the beginning, Jamie His hops in the beginning were much higher because he was fresh silly that kid gettin some air. Now it skull further Jamie we'll get laxity. There is getting tired. I'm a fight commentator understand what people are fatiguing disguise getting lacked a gas is a persistent flies, but but my room. She said you know this raises the energy level of the planet earth so that there are fewer automobile see I unless we I feel for all these people are really doing. I sail for that guy right there, the classes in front of this cat, Zis fucked. All these people. There
fucked in its social anxiety, lack of friends and the lack of community in so many different things that can lead someone to to want to seek comfort in these were ideologies or they could have been born into it or thing had been deceptively recruited by a hot check out of that guy. But the the thing is: is emotions. If you're having doubts, serve your having bad feelings there like tat its telling you too, like look at what's happening, and maybe you need to make change, but if you're in the team movement in your having bad feelings about the group, we are told that that you need to meditate to get rid of that gnats known as thought. Stopping at one of the that that techniques in the teeth of the by model to shut down any reality testing in the moonies. We were taught to chance crushed
and crush Satan crush safe and our Satan. So has rebellious glorious Ivan play our part. I want to tell you a true story, Joe Rogan, but not be about eight, and it is so then raised in a jewish family. We don't believe and Satan Boca at all. Do you believe in God, in the jewish family or wait a minute if before them you believe in God, then you have to believe in the God of the by Is that what you're defining got us now Asking me to define what I was believing as a child as a conservative jus. Yes, yes, the God of the bomb, do isn't Satan in the Bible is well known, now say it is not the Bible now not in the not in the town, Torah the new testament was invention later, of course, comes
how many bishops, why didn't he put it? Three hundred aid, the Apple Eleazer, Frank, so here's story, so I'm in them frickin moonies. If I may curse I watch I don't even said: frickin is not a curse. You said a curse, the versus movie comes out last three hundred members, including myself, to into Greenwich Village, to watch the exercise Pard watch the movie. We all and our vans go to Tarrytown to the palatial estate and naval palatial state that there are multiple ones. This one particular monetary towns where I got a lot of my indoctrination used to be owned by the sea. Grooms family moon gets up
This has gone to me. The exorcist. This movie is a prophecy of what happen will happen if people leave the unification church. Okay, now before we before gave that speech. We were singing wholly songs for three hours. That's after watching this crazy exorcise movie, and I only remembered the exorcist movie for years after I got out of the called, and I was studying psychology and we are learning about phobias and I was thinking back So what was? How was I install with I'll be as, and then I remembered this movie and this lecture us like wholly crap. I believed Not one hundred percent Satan was everywhere. And only by being in God, solely family yup. That's it, and as though the head
zips around and levitate removing it scared readers, either in any so how can entail? Jim person from in time. Family, who is gonna, professional writer and be a college professor, get sucked into a called that wants to take over the world, make an automatic theocracy, abolish, satanic democracy, kill everyone that doesn't believe was literally what we were much store by moon that we needed to reclaim the earth for God, not unlike ISIS, and bring a few other calls out. There. I was told the holocaust- was necessary because the Jews didn't except Jesus. Well, I haven't educated about the Holocaust. I've been but I know you in Israel to the Holocaust Museum
you heard that way. What was your reaction? Your name I had been so so mind, control The extreme cold example is a dissociative disorder. Speaking as a mental health professional Steve has some sort of Milton understand. Hassen from flushing queens became Steve, Hassen son of some young moon and hopped, Johan, the true parents of the universe and he needed to be clone of moon, and he was evil and my whole time in the group, was suppressing? Who I was totally shutting down any element of me. I was sleeping three to four hours a night. I was working seven days a week for no pay. I was recruiting people. I was indoctrinated people I was doing political events. Remove, including fast
four Nixon during the Watergate fasting for next fasting for Nixon, because God wanted him to be press- so you know you're wrong. Call so I'll tell you quick funny story. So my father voted for next and I voted for Mcgovern. We with my father was a business owner. It thought Nixon. Was I sit, Daddy's Krakow? Could you vote for me? It's pathetic and then the cult. I call him up. I say dad where fasting for Nixon we're in the capital- and he says Stephen, you were right. He's a crook, I sit dad, you don't understand God once Nixon to be president. He said now. I know your brainwashed is a crook. I said dad. You just don't understand I will do you at the time when this guy was twenty nineteen twenty new. So I want to take you back to the cafeteria. If you don't mind sit in the cafeteria. These girls come up to you. They start flattering, knew they do the flirting with you
and then what what's the next step. So they are part of an international group of peep students who are trying to make the world a better place than happen to have a house like a commune which was kind of interesting. Would I like to come over for dinner, so it was. The free dinner would have no recollection and and it's interesting because back then I was feeding them all the information in about myself how I thought, what might values were what my interests were, so I was telling them how to me, you're late. You say in this day and age you can go on the internet and red people's facebooks and posts and only been need to ask them. You say this but I'm assuming the girls you're talking about, are not much older than you rent so, How would warrant then being manipulated themselves weren't they, as essentially a part of,
the whole thing and They were really victims long same way. They were making new victim like they were bitten by a vampire, victimize or Maud. All right and their cultural identity is were supplied saying? They were sent away from Japan from their family and friends and they Our japanese just originalities Asia Checks, that's what's up so, but here again, but they were put had knew that they would have to report each other. If anyone deviate zone, that's why they would not send people out individually, like us tat tell system I get it, but my point being as if they were not much all the new, if at all and they were also victims of the same ideology called what everyone law at the. Why would they will be looking to maneuver?
you I would never marry his heart of it now met. Some members were taught to believe, as they still art right large, that the world is headlong into an army. Gettin situation of any moments. Judgement day is happening and as much as you can to bring people into God and save their Saul saving a person in the moonies men, saving ten generate and of their fathers, ancestors veterans and spur world, and their mothers ancestors must whirl and they're all looking at you all the time hoping you're gonna make good decisions, because if you do good things for God, you're gonna make good vitality elements that will feed them in the Spirit world and it got a mean and every called has its own convoluted, yet internally totally stick system, so
but unlike Scientology, the moonies are like save others. Scientology is lake. You know become a god and control about a matter energy, space and time, and but we'll get people to do it. You want them to do right. My point was that they, these people were also manipulated, so they knew that they were manipulating you, but they didn't think there. Manipulated themselves by the same call. They were defined information when they run malt Joe you're not having that refraction of right. You know However, looking back and going hey what just happened just then he is no matter commenting. It's like your programme to think the right way feel the right. ACT, the right way and yourself, censoring and in my particular case I guess, because I'm somewhat competitive and some love all. I know you have enough: no relationship to understanding what it feels like to be competitive,
I wanted to be the best moon. He I could be chosen by moon and one of his right hand, people to be the model leader in America, so I was and groomed to help take over in Amerika and the world you only for two years. So this how to be a very quick transition from you Steve has a normal college student to boom full on asking for Nixon, who was very fast. It was about two weeks after my first contact me having what I thought was a spiritual experience and believing that I was being directed by God to this organization,
well yeah. Sorry, this madness attribution happens a lot now for some of my clients that literally at a vulnerable point in their life, maybe that religious in their praying, dear God, tell me what to do Should I leave my marriage what, year? What should I do and the next thing they know the doorbell is ringing and it's a Jehovah's witnesses who want to study the Bible and there like Miss, attributing thinking God just reign. The doorbell, as opposed to these people, are going ringing. Every single doorbell within six block what course flag Frank Gehry he hits on every girl in meat is idea. If you swing enough pitches, innovation earth inevitably be either it's like hell. Yes, he is his way? Hotter than him just way above his head- and he never works out, but he's like you just gotta- keep swinging in ever now, please
yup. So that's what swing in every pitch, eventually they're they're, not gonna, every door and every now, and then they get that one ball, that's in this strike zone and that Steve Hassen Sittin there was pilot stolen my case, so I went to the street a workshop. I didn't want to stay. I was a waiter on the weekend. I was busy I can't go on, on a weekend and they had kept saying it's gonna, be so great and even though it was a workshop and after two years of working at the holiday Inn Hempstead as a banquet waiter and the weekends, I call up to find out when I'm so to report any says Steve, you won't believe it, but the wedding was cancelled. So take the weekend off Man I had just had this these women working on me all week and I was like well maybe I'm into, but I did give them my word cuz, but I gave him my word thinking of his never going to have a weekend off.
And then I was kind of like well. Maybe I meant to go near should do this, so I gee, I'm ok, I'm free for the weekend. Let's go were driving up it's a little of the winter through this palatial estate, and they say by the way this weekend we're having a joint workshop of Unification Church, and I said what church nobody said anything about church and workshop. Nobody said anything about it workshop. What's up with that, and they did the typical turn it around on new technique of Steve. What's do have issues with Christians to do a? U turn you biased against Christian and all of a sudden. Now I'm on the defensive right, but there were no cell phones, Peck patented in eighteen. Seventy four wire
the middle of the night. I have an option of getting out in the snow and trying to hitchhike like what am I will just wait for the morning stay here and will drive you back in the morning. They slither run your bed like sirens ways. Well they are, was in a room where I wasn't sleeping You can learn a little have announced in any case. The morning comes. The van is left now what and I thought well, let's just go in and see what you think again. It was all orchestrated because I later learned how to workers and how many people were in there with you that were also new recruits, so was another tracking a little bit of a scam because they had people there that were acting like there were new comers, but they weren't so reading small groups where there's the illusion of-
So it's actually a lot like the study where they have the one does alerts. Let's not in on the study, has as those who is very system MA, and this guy get so good at it. With this Mooney character. How do we create others see want, though the long short, the short relay and there Ok, Grady. I will background site in psychology such rumble. So moon himself was apparently in a call to North Korea, and it turns out that most caught leaders were in a cult themselves, so they didn't learn the techniques out of thin air. But the interesting thing about my former colleague was that the CIA set up the car
and CIA, because there have been two coups in South Korea to that point and they were very worried about north korean brainwashing and they thought you know we need to do something to stabilize South Korea said they had this brilliant idea of creating a private group that would help to re educate political dissidents, scald victory over communism, and I only know about this because there was a Korea gate, investigation from seventy six to seventy, eight, where the founder of the Korean CIA was interviewed and, said he quote: organised and utilise the unification Church for use as a political tool. Unquote wow- and this was at the point where Americans were getting fed up with the at not wanting us to withdraw the hawks who are very worried about.
Like needing a stronger stance against communism, thought oh yeah. We need to have student groups on campus saying we need just have a military response to communist. We should be in Vietnam and the moonies we use for that too. Later. I was Part of the fasting for Nixon things are those a whole political, very shady peace here. So you go from this, you get out. How did you get up How do you figure out that it was all bad? I was rescued by my family. Essentially, they I know where I was for a year I drove into the back of a tractor trailer truck on the Baltimore beltway at eighty miles, an hour drew an and basically nearly die, brought my leg, really bad fall asleep on. We also fell asleep. Three days, no sleep and two weeks in the hospital sleeping eating hope.
From the group. I missed my sister Thea, who was the only person in my previous life that didn't say I was in a call to brainwash. She was always like. I love you and I dont understand this doesn't seem like you said I reached out to her, not because I wanted to leave, but because I missed her and she was like you have to nephews. I want them to know their uncle Steve come and visit and, unlike, if you promise not to tell the parents, I can arrange it cause, I'm a leader and she promised. Unfortunately, she broke her promise and she told my parents and they I heard some ex members and they did a deprogramming intervention with ex members of the moon is lousy. Parents went deep with this: they knew react, what they were doing. They put everything on the table because they knew they could have gone to jail too. If it didn't work, one of the one of the team was a woman. Recruited could have gotten jail yeah? Why? Because its illegal to abduct an adult you ve done?
doctor in my case I they just took my crutches away. I had a cats from my toaster, my girl on abduction and correct but at the point that I said I want to leave and they wouldn't let me leave. I could have been something about false imprisonment.
The long and short of it is, as I was so confident that what I was doing was correct and that I wasn't brainwashed and at a critical juncture where we were they were moving locations gets. The cult was coming after me to rescue me my father's weeping. She just started crying and said: what would you do if it was your son who quit you drop out of school, quit his job and during his bank account and got involved with a controversial? How would you feel- and he was crying- and they never saw my father cry and its touched, the real me and I could I bought my called self thought he was brainwash by the communist media against father, but the real me was like dad, really loves me, and I want approved to him that I'm not brainwashed. So I said what you
it is very sad. I just want you to talk with them for another four days like to have an open mind, and if you want to go back at least your mother and I will be able to sleep at night, knowing with the responsible thing- and I agreed- and I had this four days where they were teaching me about thought reform in the psychology of total, which was a book by Rapporteur Liftin about chinese communist brainwashing of the fifties. I had all of these experiences that were starting to our that had been suppressed during my leadership is the same mechanism that allows people to be inspired the same. Mechanism that allows people to be manipulated? You know that minute mechanism being see something that's a about that makes you excited like like a great performance, a great concert or Frederick performance we get out. I just feel inspired a great book that inspire manipulates, your fear brainwaves manipulator consciousness, and if it
steers you in a certain direction. That's same sort of mechanism that allows people to be influenced by others. What allows people? to be manipulated by others. In this form, we can actually literally change the way they think in view the world. That's a big piece of it. I was also is a sort of law in the beautiful thing about inspiration the floor because inspirations beautiful its fuel right. Well, I think you need to have the end let a part of your minds when and a consciousness that, just because it sounds great and looks great doesn't mean that isn't grey suits you known of sand, like you know, sometimes things happen and you just carried away by the monkey go see a movie. He like cod damaged wanna go, do something I feel so good. Just like you got you, you know dear to see brave art. I saw a brave heart man like two hours. I wanted a sword face. Have their movie was over. I wanted to join food. You know it's like there. There's those mine grew up with watching combat
tv and Justino aunt? I know see. I don't mean I really wanted to fight. What I'm trying to get out is theirs. When you see things and when formation and data gets into your mind it. Influences you in this very strange way. They can be positive and they can be inspirational like whether it seeing Michael Jordan put on incredible women's or round arouse ie. You know beaten someone or you know those those moments where someone does something truly great and you have its fuel for you. It's cool the same sort of mechanisms that can tap into to change your mind, lefroy, it's it's a piece of the emotional and the brain stimulation like they hack your mind, it's kind of like hacking. I talk about in the.
The vice, like a virus that gets in rupture operating system, still have the original one, but the now this malware has been inserted and now you're working. You think that its Eu Brass and youth- you know I thought it was Steve, just the true Steve and that the old city was the Fawn Steve, but what stepping back and getting perspective and seeing the patterns of mind, control and manipulation in other groups and then reflecting back on your own experience, is that one of the basic tenets of what I do it in my
I work. Helping family members to rescue loved ones are helping people who read the born in a cold or recruited into a call. So in a sense that this this experience it you had when you are nineteen was incredibly beneficial for your career. I have mixed motions when I hear you say that, because I didn't I don't want to do this work to be completely honest. Really really really you dont want to, because you don't want it to be work, that it would be done its traumatic, it's, the helping people who are suffering, but don't you get about, should I get I get a film and then, doing something really helpful to individuals, I'm trying to help people around the world to understand this phenomenon, I'm trying to counter some of the major forces against totalitarianism, but to suggest that you know
wow. You know you have the moonies to thank for someone who says Korea, I'm saying is beneficial for you having a negative experience. You know, have anyone! So it's it's! It's a wounded, healer model. Yes, yes, yes, it definitely deepened me in a way that I could not have been deepened before, because when you wake up from being in a group like this, the shame, the embarrassment that confusion I felt like I didn't know who I was wrong. I didn't know what was real. I literally had to have my family, and my friends show me videos of who I was before to remind me why what did go to places that I used to go to a guy had a belief- and this is very common- and I want to touch on stuff on Malta know, which is how I learned about you, seeing your interview with him, but I believe that had an abuse childhood, those part of how they
conditions this new culture, identity suppress my old identities. They poison me against my past and white coded everything so what'd they tell you happened about your childhood. It wasn't that someone stood over me and told me, but it was. It was part of the whole indoctrination system. Listen to other people talking about abuses in their families and central, but I literally when I first got out of the group, I thought I was miserable depressed that my father was physically abusive and when I said to my sister well, dad was physically abusive. She went what you really thought it. I have how long memories? Yes! Well? Yes, that's about what, You have an actual image in your mind of your father doing it so it one real memory that everything else was built off of an them, and it was an actual event that happen. I think I was eleven or twelve
My father wanted to know where the change was for lunch and I had bought baseball cards or something, and I lied and my father slapped my face. That was the one true that was once my father is but I really believe that and my sisters were like dad- never hit ask us. His father beat the crap out of him. He never that that's issue. Wasn't you didn't want to hug us or hold us that was not physically abuse, so just one moment where he lost his patient value and you these form false memory right and wet, were Scientology does as they have you go back and and and remember abuse from the past. But anyone
you're done remembering whatever. Then you go into your pass lives to remember all the abuse, Chatsworth really and keeps going on and Don T when they're doing that and that auditing process aren't they trying to get you to. Let it go like isn't the idea that you, you were repeat a traumatic event, so many It means nothing to you like like. If you ever been around someone who doesn't swear like your your grandma sunlight than she says. Fuck you like whoa. What the hell are you grandma doesn't swear, but if your round want like Jamie, this kids get a total potty mouths comes flying out of him you don't mean like if you're around certain people, they swear all the time, it seems normal and then the word loses its meaning. It becomes a part of the normal vernacular if you're around someone- and it's very, very very rare. It becomes like this this big moment, though the idea being You repeat this thing, this event
over and over and over and over again, so it loses its meaning. It loses its impact so that what they do so, the desert qualitative different settings. This civilization around a the word or something and actually trauma, processing harboured was using a very old model of catharsis that you have to remember the abuse and you have to re experiencing abuse over over and over again and that's been thrown out by the mental health profession decades ago. Why? Because you're you're, very victimizing people having them suffer the experience over and over and over again, if I want to help some who's been abused. I tell them you have to be in your body in the here and now, and you have a
kinda or tv screen, seeing the younger you but you're safe you're. Here the abuse happened over there and I don't want them to have associated memories of abuse. I want them tat to know that their safe, that that did happen, but it's not that it's in its income wreck to think of the brain and emotions are battery and all you need to do is drain it, and then it's gone not true, isn't but doesnt work these these theory. About how to approach various? ass, traumas, traumatic incidents, is the theories are essentially a variable right, like what work work with one person may not necessarily work with another person and alive of these ideas that you put in practice mean Dante and the other flexible. There have been therapy cults. We will open this up by talking about different types of culture.
Man if any ideology, that's black and white in that you're, trying to compress human experience into the ideology worrisome, because no one model is, is everyone's different, everyone's different, but the the goal as therapists. This do no harm and empower the person to be functional right. The goal is into trauma process
so, in the last few years, I've been trained in a form of attachment therapy where, with people, people who have personality disorders which were hitherto believed to be like permanent, can actually be cured in two to three years, and the technique is basically using hypnotherapy technique. We are asking the person that go back to a key, traumatic moment in their childhood and imagining asking them to imagine if they had the ideal mother, the ideal father that was uniquely suited to them, and they did exactly what you wanted them to do in that situation and ass their imagination to fill in the scene, you do it you. The person literally, can create a positive reference point of sale,
de of security of love of attack of connection all the things that children need to experience that have a census. How of the sense of self and people know that they were abused but their repair and think of it to use another term their internally using their imagination. There repairing thing themselves and what we do is now proven neuroscientist. Glaciers, there's Neuro Genesis in Euro plasticity to the point where people can rim know that they are abused, remember it, but they can act as if they had that healthy mother in their healthy father and a healthy childhood and be fun. Nor does not seem to have works me it works? It works you act as if they believe in this Alex Fantasy, am I meet wrong.
So well, it's dangerous thing for me to hear you frame it like that people are not coming out of a therapy like that, thinking that they had a great childhood. Right, but there no longer walking around bleeding all over the place, afraid to trust somebody is having self doubt unable to touch and have sexual contact. That's that's that feels good because they ve created these reference, experiential statesmen themselves. Now these reference experiential states that they create these. These theories and these practices of therapy that someone has to invent these lights now to look at the problems, you have to figure out. What's the best way to approach these things and come up with an idea and hope that it works and, as you there's like the all round, Hubbard methods that he was using, that he that were really ancient those date thought that was gonna work and it didn't work
and he was never a health professional, but he was arrested for practising medicine without a license and they didn't call it a religion to try to brighten birth, but this these these ideas, there are essentially people, come up with ideas of how to treat people that have various elements right, think and act. In, apply them to people mean how do they practice system This is not like something like figure out how to chop this tree down. Armantrout invented acts like in a man of saying. In my case, I was out of the call for four years when I first saw a formal hypnotists do a trance on somebody and my reaction was I used to do that when I was doing lectures like I had no awareness, as I have been taught to do, have not
assets. I was told to model the older brothers and it was kind of a behavioral modeling kind of thing, and I started wanting to learn hypnosis. I wanted to understand what it was, what it was and how to do it ethically and
essentially, there has been a lot of trial and error, and a lot of people have gotten hurt by the misuse of it. If you're in a professional organisation with as a strict code of ethics where their clear boundaries and people can trust that you're there just to help them, and if it's not about keeping you as it is as a client forever, it's like the faster you can get out of treatment and just live your life, the happier the therapist is and the more you can teach the person about how and how to know themselves and how to control their feelings are control their thoughts etc. The better what is happening right now in Europe, because a socialized medicine is they really are testing a lot of these approaches and demonstrating that people, for example, with north
cystic personality disorder actually get cured after two to three years does chain, but kid if its, but coming back to my work when I was when I was first doing this work and I was struck by people who is sing, but I thought you were recruited at nineteen. You had an identity before I was born into the group. I don't have a pre called self. What do I do? I didn't know what to say to them. Other than make one up Brighton and is- and I started doing that now- thirty, nine years later, it's actually a treatment modality and I'm not I'm not taken credit for it. So the make up of a successful happy positive childhood free of this. Ridiculous! Confining I'd! Well, it's like if, if you're, if you're real life, is this storage behind you
Can you use every eight an alternate one base users as a as a non waltz where, instead of apparent beating beating you when you're asking for help or saying you're being Assisi, but you have someone saying tell me what's wrong: let you don't. You need a hug and their visualizing that and feeling like there's someone who's really there for them. That's an anchor that's a good role model for them. It really can enable them at the point that their parenting, their children, to not just reenact the the modeling that they learn and beat the crap out of their kid, but actually behave like a healthy person would want. It seems to me that is its beautiful, that all these theories are being developed and tested and applied its beauty, but it seems to me like it's all. Work in progress is an incorrect. Like do it's,
like there's any hard, fast method for definitely curing people of weird psychological ailments or caught like thinking, I think where or I think the human species is evolving. I think we're very at a very low level of evolution, terms of our understanding of things. However, people are able to get out of the most horrendous, abusive childhoods and be functional. Rout just commit suicide or be Drogheda Lamby, psychotic, Anna Mental Ward, but their able to function and in what were learning about the brain is is is system wonderful, I'm excited about the future. In terms of that, that said, there is a huge potential for abuse. Now you technique by you saying that you don't like doing it, and it is this. Is it This is too taxing on you. It's or is it because you really so this was something that you really needed to do correct here right here,
I mean we can all sort of empathize with that me, of course, anybody children will look at you love your children. You look at people who were abused as children are abused by their special by their parents, and it's just this unbelievably painful thing to do here in my forget about witness or be a part of it, but it takes about someone being beaten by their parents are, you know, abused and some sort of a way I had my friend, Barry Crimmins on the podcast yesterday great stand up comedian from Boston and he has a new movie. That's out today. It's called call me lucky that Bob Goldthwait directed and it's about his. He was raped news for by his babysitter's boyfriend. They would multiple times horrible horrible, horrible, traumatic story and a big part of his life is his his purse.
Lawrence, and overcoming this thing that happened on these forty sixty two years old down right. You know I mean this. This trauma has sort of like to find him in some ways strengthened him and other ways that he has his ability to overcome it, showing his perseverance, but fact my and an often people who have been suffering a trauma like that, if they become comedians their compensating two programmes, can balance the pain, and may become members right, because that would be someone would be vulnerable for someone who you know would have some reaching for a utopia. In view of the world or some some better way. As you know, the horror of the abuse so
a larger in this, is that the bigger called don't want people who are seriously emotionally disturbed and control them if they're serious, seriously disturbed they don't want them? Ok of yours. I want your money, but they Won't you on staff, and they don't want you to be part of a pair of so do that Ok, so have like hierarchies like say only serve. You join Scientology somewhat the huge Woodruff Oshea. If why you gotta scientology- and I d- give you. I was personally tests, which I took furthermore, Solaris they make you hold on these folders coffee cans, and this is the pyramid. So if you're in the sea or a year in the upper margins of the pyramid, the Lira Tom Cruise during the French he's a friend she's on the leader of these later, I think you're wrong. They got a metal did.
He did not gold medal, but he's he's not staff he's more like us symbol and it gives tons of money and is good for recruiting buddies, not running What do you think's going out the things gay I have yet to hear an argument against it by, I would say, John Travolta, apparently by gay, Johns, Gay and he's by times by that's my impression, but I've jeer I've heard from any former Scientology if we cannot just accelerated being gay, would Scientology go away immediately. Let's homophobic, it's totally home phobic moonies, oh yeah, it's a degraded human being. If you're gay None cupboard, San Quentin was gay and he there were killed himself murdered. So when you saw going clear where you happy that I'm in the middle of book right noughts, goddamn amazing
raising when you you go over our own humberts pass and how absolutely ridiculous it was. How many times you lie about things all the nonsense said nodded at different times. It was caught lying and right all the different people in his life that he would just make up crazy stuff is about being this world war to the euro? Is this guy is blind fighting completely crazy he's completely crazy. It's amazing than a guy. That's that damaged, could get that many people to buy his nonsense and ill So
Larry Rights and each be. I did a documentary mused on that. Yes, Larry right, JANET right men. They all took their material from my friend Johnny Chuck, who, as a former member o t five who wrote a book called peace, a blue sky and John and put together this. This conference in Toronto called getting clear. The limbs I getting clear, dot co and we D bunked, not only Hubbard, but the entire policy is inside the earth organisms should. I was explaining mind, control and it's gonna be made live on the on the internet. That people can watch all this. The reason that he did this and why encourage them to do this was people were leaving David Miscarriages Church of Scientology, but starting their own splinter group of Scientology, where they were still idolizing harboured.
And still doing the attack and we wanted to debunk the whole thing from start to finish, and I think it was done very masterfully, so they were starting like the sub groups where they came up with their own, so they would do it. There were taken there on automatic pilot of all these running. My time closer empty offers her gray eyes. Yes, sire Nor so, for example, the number two men number three man Marty Rathbone and might render had left the group and were spelling all the secrets of what other criminal activities that were being done. They were creating independent scientologists and trying to keep doing auditing and keep doing the processing, and it's like birds come on like wake
while the whole system was warped and weird and like so, they would try it were they trying to find some beneficial aspects of what they had based most of their life on its own. It was my own Alex Alvin, some of the light, but like there. If to use the cult identity thing, they're called identity was trying to ring Vienna redo things that miss cabotage, guys trip, listen him talk, and, conversely, and especially that giant speech that he gave. When they got tax free status like why
how was it there is something really good book by Tony Ortega has the blog. If anyone listening once than all about Scientology its Tony or take it out Org, he wrote a book called the unbreakable, miss Lovely about Paulette Cooper, who was a friend of mine when I left the Mona LISA nineteen, seventy six, she wrote a book called the scandal of Scientology and the book is all about our life story and how this group arrest the hell out of her friend haulage. Yes, because she told the truth about our burden and the organization and Hubbard said never defend, always attack, and they did all these criminal activities systematically, which, though, goes on to this day
So the way I'm having a book release party after this and you're invited if you wanna meet some of the people in the going clear on edge handle it. I m too busy today is that you doing that you doing something at these seas around theatre. Yes, such more night, the Steve Alan Theatre, Steve Alan by the way son, was an and a call for eleven years, and I he was a big surprise, I watched you on this devout show. That was one of the first things. I saw you He was a substitute host on CNN back in eighty eight, when the book first came out and he gave me a big plug and I loved and I loved him for it, and now I get to be at the theater named after him talking about the book again but the new edition and these days on particularly focused on helping victims of pimps and traffickers, pimps, pimps and traffic
Is that like sort of a form of courts- and there is a commercial called they, they do all the bite model. The behaviour, control, information and traffic control. Emotional control make people over into a new identity and their dependants and obedient, and I've co developed a curriculum to help survivors to view in the game to stand. That's what pimps call what they do the game sub the basically understand that that they're they don't love. You know the women in their stable, let their products at for exploitation and the only way to win the game is to send it and get out and have a life equate those cuz. It makes sense, but I've never done it before I've never put it in my head and thought of a pimp and a prostitute being like a the pimp, run to called so If you read some of
manuals on line by pimps. How to brainwash the hose stair with terminology for women. I actually tell the story in chapter six of Rachel, Thomas who is recruited while she was an junior at Emory College, she's, a beautiful black woman, and she was recruited by a pimp who basically said you're beautiful. You should be a model I wanna take your picture, put you in some rap music videos which he dead, and then he started beating her up and and and farming her out for sex and threatening to kill family. If she told anybody why, fortunately she turned the FBI he's in jail she's, being a project to help young girls and we ve co, develop this ass. She read my book. She said that this really helps me to understand how It is to me, have you ever seen those documentaries, pimps oppose down or Marryats hemp s now sets a big part of it. Is there to talk about how they would find
but they came from broken homes that had daddy issues and they would foster this feeling of family rights right well and the the the calls that I was most experience with helping victims of was called called, the children of God, which the leader was Moses, David Burg, and he was a pedophile and he had to leave the you ask us he was gonna, be arrested and he in his in his cruelty, had women be happy hookers for Jesus and he basically told people they had to have sex with with two year olds year olds, four year olds, so it was a sex called and when people would be either kicked out of that coal or run away. My theory is that pimps found them on the streets and and started learning from them writ religious terminology that family etc,
and so the sex trafficking and then the other thing that is occupying a lot of people's consciousness as terrorist cults, like ISIS Boca her on which our trafficking women, by the way and are taking not just weak stupid people but, for example, that one of the architects of ISIS is social media. Recruiting network was the son of in their chronology us that Mass general hospital someone who is raised in Boston went to a Catholic High school and unfortunately, were. Fortunately, he was killed by a drone strike few months ago. This kid, but my heart goes out to them. People who get this.
The very recruited and mine controlled cause. It happened to me and if I hadn't been de programmed, I could have done horrible acts of violence. That's how I was trained while so they were training. You two sword fight. You said he ass, they may be sickly train me to die or kill on commands, and they train me if I allowed a doubt when I was given an order by my superior that the Satan was going to be invading me all the exorcist, and so whatever I was bailed to do, I did and it incredibly frightening? What, literally, when I saw the the bodies face down a Jonestown? My first thought was: I could have done that and when I saw planes going into the World Trade Center. I thought I could have done to that's part of my passion and what propels me so many years later
Has the problem has not gone away. It's gotten worse, documentaries like going clear, the HBO documentary has helped? Definitely it's been great, my great ape about his book and the documentary is that it didn't deal at all with mine, controller brainwashing. It didn't give anyone who was watching the documentary reading the book tools for how to protect themselves or They were in a cold to rot self, reflects and analyze what has happened more easily enough time to just fill an hour and a half or whatever was two hours, but it is so much
so my Rand's Joe and when one rights but first came out, I did a short video am, I said, saying going clear as the definitive book on Scientologists like right. It saying your Britain defended a book on cars and leaving out gas combustion engines. That was what I said. I was frustrated in other words, because he, a brilliant people like Paul Haggis, who has incredible Holly career say. I was stupid for believing this for thirty years and giving so much money to them, and what has happened is not stupid right. What is happening, those guys they being attacked the the group has change dramatically because of former leaders coming out in speaking out. A group anonymous helped a lot initially by powerful anonymous by where
en masse concerning, come on. Let's protests that scare them and it created a culture where people were were more empowered to speak out against them right now. We want the tax exemption to be stripped. There's no reason. If we should be subsidizing, agree, That's paying millions of dollars to harass former member knows one the most disturbing aspects of the movie when you find out that they'd how they achieve taxes, I'm status by a litany of lawsuits. They propelled against the IRS and also hiring p eyes to dig up dirt on the irish commissioners and hiring powerful lobbyists and its dirty. The whole thing is dirty. It seems too easy. I count in that they be so easily influenced. To give these mean I have to use read one of his fuckin books right illegal, this guy, this Cairo Scientology to Cairo Battlefield Earth like fucking Christ, so but is
the bottom line. Is that if, if there's a total list group that has a black and white us versus them good versus evil, simplistic ideology that says that you know we have the vision for how the world has to be a. We have the tools for how to be the best person. You can be. One need to operate with some consumer awareness and say who is this person? One of his background is a trustworthy and ever. It is seek critics an ex members and know that if it's true, it will stand up to scrutiny and if it isn't, you know if it isn't true, why would you want to invest your time in your energy in your money and something that was not ready
I think people just searching for meaning I mean that's. What a lot of this is all a searching for, meaning to make that life a better that's succulent, rhyming succulent with dianetics, when I was living in California for the first time and ninety four, There was no internet or I'd had it on it, and it was just those just starting to get anything I might have gotten a computer run then there was a late night television commercials dynamics in the volcano member them cannot, of course, be the o three story ass. He knew and the galactic kick dictatorship yeah, while the volcano. Just look like you know: unleashing your potential to mail, I guess Dianetics powerful I'd in a business the Robins books on tape, and I was ready to rock n roll you now China, so you isn't it ideas. He was studying, Eriksson and and L P, and that is basically covert. Have not Can you have a happy marriage, one thousand nine hundred and eighty nine page, one hundred and eleven? How can you have more job satisfaction in nineteen, eighty, nine, two hundred and twenty seven?
Russia, so I bought the book. I ordered online member I paid? I guess I had a credit card and these fuckin people wouldn't not stop. Sending me thing. I mean for years like every week or so every month, or so whatever was out, gets something in the mail inviting need this. Inviting me to vat. I mean it was just amazing how your assistant counted as one of the eight million followers, even though this really twenty thousand more or less, I was a flower. So I went to China bid me somewhere your new, exactly Amanda Database Dianetics member. So I'm a mind. Scientology was on one point, I counted them because they called sector fudge. Statistics there much bigger, and they really are. So what is the actual number of scientologists number that my friends tell me as its twenty thousand or less? that's not that many in the world, that's it
so how they have so much real state their billions of dollars. They ve such a lot of wealthy people dry. That's it credible. The whole haggis paid a shitload of money right is one thing we talked about: Hubbard was into money and power, money and power sex, three universals with all destructive cults. Yeah, like the Waco thing right, there was one I have section there, but his wife power money sex. Interestingly, I met the by I've met, Byron, say last December, who is the lead FBI negotiator with David crash at way, go see the guide, assent, the tanks and Bernard, but I'm afraid so. Our somebody such a good negotiator, F, the now he was soon is clearly unhappy and him or less said that we didn't know what we are doing and we wish that you had a. We had known what
We were clear. He was clearly unhappy with the result he'd. He knew that they screwed up a lesson I swear saying they murdered a bunch of people as they did the videos will. They should never have gone establish. You know they should never have gone and with guns in the first place, the David crash was molesting minors and they were making. Automatic weapons, but what kind of Lord him into town and arrested him and could have taken away the guns They were sure that he molested minors. How old were the miners? Ten. How very jewel testified before Congress as one of its victims, but I just I guess because of that I want to come back to I learned about you and and and and your good work with stuff and Molly knew. If I may
free domain. Radio I was even a good workers. Is a conversation were asked him, some questions that it helped a lot of members wake up because they respect too, and they got listen to their divine leader lie ends and it was powerful hear him say: oh no, I don't tell people to defer, while I always tell people to go to therapists before they cut off from all their family and friends, and people knew that that was a blatant lie and took a chink out of the mysticism of people who were true believers because beheld your own with him. Now he didn't dino rap you around finger, as is used to doing with the followers and their respect, for you cite my hats off too Where that it wasn't my intention, my intentions,
have conversations, have been trying to figure out what he's doing or what his dark processes he's got some really good ideas about things. It's fascinating she's? A very eloquent car these very smart, obviously, and he he has some really interesting concepts, but he's a very firm and his belief about certain things as well. To the point where, like one of the things that I talked to him by, we put a video of him yelling about someone, if you believe in the state that you want him killed, you want me killed and that you should. Get rid of all your friends that believe in the state in this the idea of a narco capitalism? Anarchism like you, you don't want any government whatsoever early who's gonna fix it. Reed. So those- and there was no answers to the rest- who's gonna pay for anything who's. Gonna who's going to organise were what would you like. This is not like a well thought out things like this, someone? So instead of best that he's an incredibly eloquent man that is,
screaming north while pretending to be holding a compass. That's interesting another one of those you know, and I corporations Wally's, owning a corporation type people and saying that he's liberating people and is in fact, enslaving people into a total lipstick If something that he's do you think this is something that sort of and along the way like as he was. I honestly hallooing his philosophy in. I don't know enough about him. I was hired by a family to consult to help a young man who was getting sucked in and they were worried about that. He would try to cut off contact and fortune. He's. Ok, so it was a relatively new phenomenon for me, but was particularly interesting about this particular call was that he was recruiting over over the internet and that's how ices largely
hurting as well, so is uninteresting movie so recruiting though how's you were crazy. Recruiting just does videos were a kind of talks about his ideas right right and he gets. Followers to tell other people to watch the videos they watch for hours and hours and hours, and they it it there. Harry wires. There thought processes both to the point where he gets them to question their own belief systems, their own value systems and because he's a bully and he's allowed mouth any talk so confidently about a lot of things that he doesn't really know very well like Wortley. What we talk, though but before about Robin Williams, Yan, and that as this one small example, yet the robber wings, one really disturb me as one things at a question on, because he said that he believed that Robin Lamb, Humane a video or saying that ramblings killed himself because of all the women were addicted
Free shit, I think, is the way he described it that these women who are addicted to get. Money from him. They sucked him dry, Robin. I had the same agent. He was worth millions of dollars when he died. He was not broken in east way. Shape or form is Molly was diminishing in his ability. Ers of ability to earn money was diminishing, getting older, but that's just normal for actors. Now. He use here real depression and he also had Parkinson's and the Parkinson's medication, and it was on one of the side. Effects was severe depression, Also, there is a good friend of mine, Doktor Mark Gordon who he is. Done a lot of work with people with traumatic brain injuries. You wrote a paper an arm surgery and how people who have they're gone large, very traumatic surgeries. I've brought broaden when open heart surgery, oftentimes
sperience posts, surgery, depression and at its head physiological response to your body being under in anesthesia for long periods of time, plus the physical trauma, of the actual surgery itself, the injury and EU bodies hewing in right, especially as you're, older that is a massive task to heal a heart that has been cut, open and stitched up in your research asked plate has been spread upon its very traumatic, physically traumatic, in that often too, this can lead to a diminished state consciousness and then depression, tat. Also, the reality of mortality said I and on a lot, people, so I was upset attacks. I just didn't understand why he would do that, but I didn't I didn't, have to conversation with him like trying, exposed him. I had a conversation with him to ask questions and then, after it was over, that's when,
these videos sort of common out, and that's when I realized tat, he was deceptive about a few things, in the conversation that was initially fantasizing you would invite him back, and I would be here and then some families have been cut off from their love. One would be here and we could be like you know, tell all your followers to get a therapist and reconnect with their families. I give you really care like do something here, that if the deferring thing was one of the things they going as family of origin and now oh family, about. And he apparently is fond of Certain people to get rid of all of his followers and not just your family, though your friends, your childhood friends, have nothing to do with your family. He because he wants people not to have other influences in their life. That can say do what you producing, this is conscious. Do things,
is a conscious thing, or do you think this is a natural state of someone trying to achieve power without me? Well, what is what is the mechanism by not I I don't know about him specifically, I would say most cult leaders are not cold, calculating con artists, their delusional. They often were victims of mind control themselves and are kind of playing out of identification with the aggressor type scenario. I dont know enough about him to touch comment intelligently.
For me it's about wanting people to reclaim their personal power rang, and I want to say that anyone whose involve with Molly knew, who may be listening to this is take take time out, stepped back, learn about mine control, learn about cults. Talk to former leaders. Talk to former members reflect over your own experience. Ask yourself what, when you were first getting involved while into what did you think you were getting into when you are first getting involved? Did you believe you were going to be cutting off from your family, your friends, your life dropping out of school. Turning over your trust funds, and if the answer is internal over, you trust Aarhus. Turning over your money, what you mean Am I what who's turning over money? I can't quota particular person, but that's the pattern with all these groups as if they know that you
money they want you, but as far as I know more than you he's not asking people to give them all their money, he's not doing that he's not asking people turnover trust fund. He might ass well small donations, but I don't think it's fair to say that is out of turn, Tried I dont want to speak if you are sure about a general, be I've never heard of that. I've never heard that accusation. But what my impression from him on a first madam's at its very intelligent and oftentimes, intelligent people are frustrated by really stupid people that around them and when he has solutions for particular, particular issues that are in society or particular behalf your patterns. He speaks about them very calm ITALY and people will become enthralled with that, and then I think, that's a very addictive process. The addictive process of offering solutions haven't people praise you for those solutions. And then having people come to you for advice,
and sometimes you get ahead of yourself. You just this momentum in that, and sometimes you get in front of the wheel and you can't stop it and then use spout knocked out. Everything like you would do these videos the truth about this or the truth about that. The truth about people that died and you're talking about like people that very complex lives. They lived a hundred years or whatever the fuck they lived and the EU. You can't just boil that down into one video With very little research, especially when you're doing a hundred other videos are weak and you're doing all these interviews and doing podcast new noise in the Eu you talked about someone's life man. You can see the truth about Lincoln unless you fucking stuff, Lincoln for a long period of time or even then, like Dan, Carlos, my favorite historian. Do you new cars often historian, but as a pod, castor, ease brilliant in his podcast hard core history, one of them
things about it. He will offer opposing point of view. It will say some people believe that this is what happens. There's there's some dispute about this because it seems to be that a start, certain schools with thought about why this took place. I think this more important. Is that whenever we start saying the truth about some like man that you just You can't do that. You know and that's why the truth about robber volumes as a purse as a professional stand of comedian right was particularly offensive to make some like come on man in a targeted his beloved guy who had this incredibly complex, should not just with his ex wives, but with show business with life, with depression with church drugs like this is not something you can just boil down to a one hour podcast or a one hour, Youtube Video and just called the truth about someone rape, so
want to mention: there's a retired child protective agency social worker named David Coup person, who wrote a book about corporal punishment, because that's one of molecules, claims, etc and and Cooper. Sin is studied a number of voluntary videos and the whole ideology in his written a great book by the way it's on stop league,
child abuse, dot com is David's website, and he just more or less says, as someone whose work with children who been traumatized, whether it was beaten by their their parents or their foster parents or sexually abused. The best thing is not to cut off contact with the abuse of family. It's too have therapists and to have a healthy frame to work within it and not just to impose from the outside or by some authority. Figures says that they know what's better for them, because even kids, who are being a is still have feelings towards our mother or father that are positive because of the way were wired. So anyway, I wanted to to get a plugin for his book and the fact that and then I want to mention. Molly catch Molly be catch, Kayo, C, h, dot com wrote a book on parenting called twenty seven secrets are raising amazing children and
she too, when I asked her to comment as an expert on parenting about what mile anew with saying with saying this is not gonna help people to be healthier: human beings to cut off contact from family and friends, no matter what happened in their childhood, but the best thing is with therapy and ideally with a family therapists to approach it to the extent that, people are protected, so they're not further abuse by their families of orange. What seems very black and white? I mean because, if you're coming from an incredibly abusive family in your ear, real family was brutal and they beat you and they did horrible things you, which I know people have come from, cutting them off as a great idea. I disagree really so, you think of your father, sexually abusing rapes, you beat, you are, becomes omen and our colleague rage and breaks your skull. You should they'll call that guy I didn't say that
Nobody mean if that, if you're on earlier, but if you're in that sorry, I'm saying you should be in therapy if that's happened to go and your therapists should should consider, depending on the course of treatment approach hang the the Father or the mother and getting them into therapy. Maybe they need to get off of alcohol or order so maybe they then they need therapy, but just cutting off your entire background and passed as chocolate. Off for me is really not a healthy, long term solution monuments and cutting off your entire past and saying, don't have contact with someone who was horrible to you, you don't so what? What trying to say Joe as a therapist and I've seen these situations, I'm also involve with parental alienation cases where there's a divorce and the custodial parent brain washes the children against
the father arise? The mother, which is horrendous, people can grow key people can change, people can evolve and whatever is also this false memory syndrome where people were getting with not good there are best sore using hypnosis are getting into calls and being like. I was believing I had this horrible childhood just cutting off in saying I can ever talk with them again is not a healthy choice, in my opinion, being being with an ethical therapist and finding a way to evaluate, what's happening with them and getting them into treatment and then prep potentially to have some type of family therapies situation. If it's not gonna be helpful. Ultimately, then of course don't don't reject miser yourself, don't allow yourself to continue to be abused, but this kind of this notion of lopping off.
Other, your mother, your sister, your brother, because they were shitty to you twenty years ago or forty years ago. I think as a mistake as a therapist. Do you think it's a mistake across the board I do, but what there are gonna, be scenarios where you shouldn't be hanging out with your brother, because your breath, used rape, you or your brothers did, but my lobbying right now that I'm not talking about hanging out long of communicating with them. Why have any contact with someone who horribly abused you lose just because their fate We would you do that to a friend since ideas, Lud and DNA somehow or another, make you inexorably connected to some person that was horribly abusive to you. If you had a friend that you grew up with your friends to rape, you and beat the fuck out, he's supposed to still contact them because they were your friend and will always be in your life. I think friend, who raped me is different. Category than a father rather sister, a brother. Why has a different because its
I guess that's it cleans found. That seems like a thinking. That's like monkey thinking does it make any sense? I mean if someone if some was horribly abusive to you in their evil person- and we both agree that our evil people the world right now, someone was evil to thirty years ago. The question is: are they still evil today? Why find out why because it's not enough time for a hundred years of your lucky. You know I mean if you, if you would, you want to really try to fix someone who rate iron beat you up most of your childhood, or we realise that people who like raised and the children of God and they were raped by their brothers and sisters and fathers and mothers, and they want to have a healthy relationship with their challenges. They realise that the past that's not now and that they,
doing the best they could under those circumstances, because that's how they were and doktor needed to be right. But this is a different thing: you're talking about people having you just said, people having relationship with their own children, you not talking about people that that they were the people that rape, abuse that we are talking about. People having relation but those people, for example, I mean when were in, for example, a cold like the children of God. They weren't thinking that their father mother were raping them in their aunt and uncle raping, but they were having abuse of sex right was not something that they were ready for, wanted to have and it hurt, etc. Now they're out and for me to just say, look, you know, cut off or contact and an assume, there's no possibility that they could grow, they can change that could evolve. They can apologise that can make it up to you. For me, that's not the ideal, it's not what my
my position as a healer as someone whose work with so many other people, now what I'm not saying is: if you been hurt by someone they just call them up and then have them hurt you but that's not thing. I'm saying use professionals as mediators to see what's possible forms of concern of healthy chain, but you're you're you're. Putting this in this family contacts and his work confuses me like that. You should do because they're your family, but you shouldn't do that if they were your friend, I guess I'm not me. It's a sound, so absolute and every case should be evaluated individually, but I do have. I guess. I've had too many cases. Where was this kind of total cut off right? I said, and maybe its justified, but maybe not may be. The person really you now got great there and they are incredibly remorseful and they want to
poligized in there decent human being, you can keep carrying the pain and the judgment and say I know I'll, never talk with you again or. Try to accept them for where they are now and see whether or not there are going to be beneficial to do your ongoing Secondly, on this on the person who victimize whom some raped you and beat you shouldn't be honest beyond them to come and apologise to you or attempt to apologize to you. I not ties re them out and bring them to therapy and try to hashing out with them. I would agree with that. I would agree with that. I think everyone ultimately us to take responsibility for their own lives and their own actions. I mean I felt terrible for a lot of the things that I did in the movie is, and I did my best to reach out to people I had recruited, who whose lives I had interfered with and in it was a burden for many many years as long as they continue to be in the group and they're all out now, but
Surely no one wants to talk with me. I think they still harbour really bad feelings towards me. Wow, that's gonna, be so strange for you to be in a position that you are now to have these people that look at you as someone who victimize them and the very way you're trying to shield people from today, so that that's probably flavouring this idea that you're you know you want people to, Try the hash about work it out because of your own personal experiences. They think people can grow and people can they can, or they can not right, but I'm an advocate for change. I am too, but a mouse also also believe, as some people that it just beyond fucked up and there's nothing. You do about them on a bad idea cut them off. I know your parents often their very happy because of it, because their parents or evil and their parents fucked up I mean and their every time they would be with them or communicate with damage is being credibly damaging. They would have to deal with it for months on end and the stress in the pain or just not worth it and
Ultimately, they felt better to you know to forgive that person, but not communicate with them. See is where we differ. I guess I more the jewish angle on forgiveness like oh, I don't believe in forgiving people don't apologize and don't offer compensation and dont promise. Never to do it again and then never do it again. That's kind of the jewish formula, then only then is the person who is wrong in a position to forgive, but I'm not of the thing of just forgive at, but I
I guess I've. I think, ultimately, the more sense of fullness of wholeness, of knowing that we do everything. That's within our power, our sphere of influence to do to be a good person to to bring goodness to the planet is the way to operate, and I thought glad for me with my father. He he didn't beat me, but he didn't hug me. You didn't give me a lot of praise when I was growing up because his father never gave from that, and instead of at the when I was in therapy, instead of being angry at him, leave undersea stepping into his shoes as a child realize and he was doing the best that he could and at thirty I just when I saw him, I just started hugging him and he'd be like a board, and I be decisive, stand because I need a hug and by
time he was in his eighties. He was actually wanting the hug and enter fifty years, yeah yeah took fifty is actually said. I love you and I'm proud of you ignited main detail, but I got to see my father. Evolved differently than solid, beat, sherry and raped. You that's a lie. People's reality. When dealing with their parents me, your dad doesn't sound abusive, he decided light is the victim of his only was ringing. He wasn't abusive and I had a relatively normal chart. You know boring and then anyways cuz they didn't smoke, they didn't drink, they didn't have affairs. I live in the same house. I wasn't like moving all over. There wasn't a child of divorce, but I guess I want to just come back to. Everyone needs to kind of. Be in touch with their inner voice, their inner intuition ends, and instead of holding of fraud,
frame in their mind of what happened thirty years ago and just keeping that I can't be with him because of that. Find out what's going on, and I'm not amassing put yourself in a position where you can be harmed, but you can use third parties to find out what's going on there and there could be some really radical, positive changes that happen. That could be a really good thing. I see your point in up to a certain degree. Does a certain degree of abuse that I think some parents have enacted on their children. There was a story that Montoni recently about this brother that was raping his sister and in going went on for years and then the dad found out about it and dad joined in, and this went on for more years. Those people can both go fuck themselves, if I was a girl and if I knew that girl, I would tell them to our tone. Never never contact never talk to them. There's no need you don't just because
your blood. That doesn't mean anything, that's nonsense! Your family, you can have Emily, that's not related to the people that you love and trust, and if you treat them like their family, they'll treat you like family too. I think you'd you choose the people that you can be in contact with. That's the problem that allow people, have with this whole idea. Family is that you're born into them. Media is like distant just get a random hand. Of course, cards like you know, that's your family and you just have to accept that for the rest of your life and then, when they fuck up, you have to keep trying to forgive them. Help them or bring them into our. Not I say not: What sort of people like that girl with his brother and dad raped her? This no fuck me to bring those people into your life if you can get away from them, stay away from them hopeful. There are in jail. Now I don't know what happened and that protects situation. But I grew up with a father that beat the fuck out of my mother, and I a bunch of times. When I was little and in need was five years old, my mom laughed
So these images are very old and their very distorted, but there are two percent real there's. There are certain things that were undeniable, but the physical abuse and have had no desire to talk that person ever since, and I don't ever want to. I don't need it in this idea of blood Does this person had sex with my mom and made me that I have to forgive this dummy in Ben time with them and try to work out why the fuck outta my mom in front of me. I don't need that, and I don't think that then I think you need that, he'll and grow. I don't think it's necessary, not imposing my point of view on you. I'm just sharing my point of view as a therapist, whose seen literally hundreds and hundreds of different cases and
People can change, may also wanna go come back to the false memory point, because there is a lot of people who went into therapy or they got into a cold, and they came to have the belief that right and its attack on a call to they were beaten and tortured by by their family, and it's not true right, but there still acting as if it is, and there's no effort to reality tests to actually talk to the sub lings or talk with the neighbours or see. If there's a most sexual predators have multiple victims that usually not just in acting on one particular person and what I've been saying from the beginning. Is you don't find a good therapist whose experience with trauma and sexual abuse and such and and do it too?
a process and consider, and especially if there is anyone listening whose a follower of stuff on mile anew whose cut off contact with their brothers in their sisters and their mothers, how many people have done that is this an epidemic. I think there are hundreds really. I think there are hundreds- and I'm just saying- take a time out from all anew. Stop listening to his podcast for a few weeks. Learn about mine control, learn about cults, read the book. I I watch the video that was put on line by a follower of mile anew who is had just left, and I I reached out to me said I've. I've got free videos on my freedom online website check out my book and he just email me literally yesterday was this morning saying you know it's given me a new understanding about everything. Thank you so much and and if you have cut off contact for years,
here's an years find someone to reach out to your family and create a way back, because a lot of people are afraid even reach out and their confuse still, because there are many areas to the YAP I've I've had. Some people have left Scientology, for example, come to me because they, many years of of being in the called, didn't go to mom when she was dying in the hospital. They didn't go to their brothers wedding and they were supposed to be the best man or they borrowed money over and over and over again the families like screw you. We never want to hear from you again now that person's woken up. They ve left Scientology and nobody in the family wants anything to do with them and I feel, like I at least, should make an effort to say to them. You know there is such a thing as mine control. They were doing what they thought they were supposed to do being in the cold and
No, you are right to be angry at them for not being there for mom and for not being there. However, that doesn't mean that their bed dead people that there isn't some value and reconnecting again, whose one more disturbing parts of going clear was seeing the people that were just emotionally devastated by the fact that family wouldn't talk to them anymore because they had been excommunicated. So this disconnection, the data abuse, call this fellow shipping its common mind, control technique to manipulate people to cut them off from family and friends. If people are breaking rules or questioning the authority, etc, it's not something that should be done by any legitimate religion, certainly not any any legitimate organization telling people. You can talk to your sister, your brother, your mother, your father, because some some method-
ready figure says: God doesn't want it or that you violated the rules there taken it to another level. Writer sing you can't talk to them is against the rules to talk to them, though not incur aging deferring now getting rid of your family of original origin there there bearing encouraging there were their sale, they are of no rule, does a rule, means encouraging their they. There actually saying you can't talk to them right and if you do tat with them than you risk being kicked out of the group to right. That's the threat. Now one of the things about mind, control called. Is like I was shown, the exorcist, if I was gonna leave the moon is part of the unconscious, saw that little girl with the etc in the mind of someone on the mind control. They can't visualize themselves out of a group being happy and fulfilled the end.
And in the minds of Scientologists. If you leave you're gonna go insane, you gotta commit suicide, you gonna become a drug out. Act is no possible and they put phobias members minds against any mental health professional. So if you're feeling suicidal if you're having major migraines only do auditing only do Scientology techniques and at the point that I think it was Paul Haggis that you know we refuse to me. You know refute his gay daughter when, when he learned that Scientology came out against the bill in California, at that thou is his wake up. Call because his love for his daughter trumped the cult ideology. How bazaars that Scientology has anti homosexual ideas
I think it's very bizarre, but a lot of courts are Mary, Anti Babo. Why? What is what is Hubbard? Was a homophobic zones near new? Probably he had sexual drives. Is man that he couldn't deal with, so he decided to make a roll and make it into a horrible thing so, but has it fit with a guy like John Travolta, who is allegedly gay, That seems so bizarre. It's it's incredibly horrible. Because, essentially, you can't you the culture, the culture identity does not want to acknowledge the person's true self and everything I'm, he acts out its true nature. He feels bad. But the speculation is that they have some dirt on him. Speculation is that through the odd The process of the files they keep on you- that was what they implied in,
doc, humanity that they have these stacks of files on and they do malaria is older. Is that such things and that in the time magazine Cover story and ninety ninety? Does it huge amount of fear and threat that if you leave the grew poor speak out against a group. They're gonna come after you and ruin your life and unfortunately, a lot of people have fear and for me and other people who laughed You're gonna have to rise above it and say screw you, I'm not. Gonna live glass, research he's out whatever you want to tell that screw you for certain people, though, that the ideology of Scientology, though, that the the tenants or the in the principles seem to help them give them. Restructure mean. Is there any way that there's anything beneficial to like the way they meet Islam successful people that are scientologist. They seem like ambitious and motivated. I give it seems like theirs,
part of it and I'm not trying to support Scientology. I'm trying to look at this in a balanced perspective seems like at least some of They're doing is trying to enhance your ability to function as a person, right is it not true they say one thing and what they do is another thing. They say that they're gonna give you power, over your mind, right or body over matter and our joint clean space, but a lot of it comes down to the belief, that's programmed into the Scientology identity that you have this higher truth that you understand the nature of reality that a certain technique, is going to work, but what we know from the placebo effect, the power of authority and the power of suggestion is what's happening here. It's not the techniques itself, it's not the ideology.
And also the the feeling of being empowered. By being a part of a successful group, a successful group and the motivation that they give you, you got a buggy Five thirty will answer and that I have now got your The government is over there, we'll just wrap this out and out. I tell everybody: that's we're gonna wrap this up here, batting called mind. Control Steve is, and you can get a hold of Steve on Twitter. His twitter handle is hold on certain. It is called experts at cult expert on Twitter name in Congress, asian along off. I agree with him on everything, but but obvious. Very knowledgeable guy and a very nice guy. So that's that's raptly fucks we'll be back tomorrow. That's right! Bitches the fight companion returns to Morrow, seven p m p
time Eddie. Bravo, Brennan Shaw, Brian Cowen, the full boat god dammit and it'll, be fun, aright, we'll much love, bye, bye thank you, everybody for tuning into the pod cas. Thank you owe so much must my sponsors Caveman coffee, which fuels every single one of these motherfucking podcast to me, undies the best, damn underwear on the planet earth on these dot com. Ford, Slash, Rogan, get twenty percent off your first order. That's right, you fucks takes. So to simply safe, go to Blair safe? It's not. It seems. It should be simply with a why safe, but it's an eye. As I M p, El, I save dot com, Ford, Slash Rogan for an exclusive ten percent offer get a free chain. Freaky chain remote twenty five bucks. Only when you gotta simplest, safe, Dotcom, Ford, Slash Rogan. As I M p, I safe dot com, Ford, Slash row,
And last but not least, we are sponsored each and every by on dot com, a total human optimization website, we aim to help you get it together. Next by council be tomorrow, and that will be one of the fight companion, pie tests, which are often times one of my favorite once they're, just ridiculous the lot of talking over each other a lot a drunken antics, but should be a good time Brennan job will be here. Brian Cowen will be here and, of course, any Bravo as well have great time, and there should be some really good fights so that's it. You folks will see you tomorrow during the main cause of the sea, which airs at seven o Clock Pacific time on the West Coast. Until then enjoy your life, much love big, kiss.
Transcript generated on 2020-03-15.