Hello, ladies and gentlemen, DIS Podcast is ridiculously long. Sam Harris and I just started talking, and I don't tell you what we talked about it just go crazy to the point: We had no idea how much time it went. I We really didn't know when Jamie told me was four one slash two hours. I was like what I don't know: what happened but fascinating. As always. This episode, the podcast brought you by Jamies fan. James friend can talk anymore. Tongues dead, jamies friend, Jamie's friend, the foodie app and Jamie told me about this. I actually saw it on Instagram. I think I followed them and they have an application. That is a lot like well photo sharing for food. You know people get annoyed. If you show too many pictures of your food on their instagram, they get mad at you will like it. Some people love it. I notice I love it. I love watching people cook. I don't know why. Even like eggs like something real, simple videos on Facebook that are going crazy, just little short one minute, videos of people making cool, good good, looking food

it's fun, so food is an app that, let's you share the photos of your kids junior food bar drinks, whatever something like that see something like you can swipe right and save it to your kitchen or bar. So it's like tinder for food, so people people really get about food, those recipes! You can save on it too. If you want to try to make it at home or remember where you saw go back. Yeah the home feed is a simple feed. We could see pictures recipes of the people that you follow, so it's kind of like Instagram and he can you know, go to it's interesting. You cannot upload recipes. People get that. Don't cook right now getting angry still Dole can move not making food too. Going to restaurants, though, like for a lot of people, it's like a it's a visual art form as much as it is daily battle. People have to try to decide what they want to have to eat and for some folks they really look forward to it. Jamie suck,

prince of delicious food, all the taste. Ah, the perfect temperature of the texture sing search for recipes, restaurants, dishes and drinks near by an worldwide in the discover section. So it's like a yelp for food too, so it's called food PA H, o o d. I e that's p, h, o o d Eiei guess foodie with an f was taken. Is that what that is yeah, I think also PH for Fo photo of how I never think of that beautiful. We're also brought to you by on it dot, com and- and I t I've done this commercial so many times- there's no way to do any differently, so keep it brief on. It is total human optimization website but we try to sell, is things that we find beneficial weather its strength and conditioning equipment like kettle wells in battle ropes and things along,

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SAM Harris, the Joe Rogan experience join my day, Joe Rogan Podcast, my name all day. The infamous Jamie double Finger gun live. How are you, sir? Could you do that? I'm going to be back looking healthy, looking fresh glad to hear why stop eating meat, since I last I heard about that. I want to talk to you and I don't know that it's correlating with health every time I worry about out loud, I get hate mail from vegans and vegetarians say: stop stop yeah put in yeah bullshit on us. Well, they don't like when you associate any negative consequences whatsoever with only eating vegetables, because it's 'cause, it's essentially a cult. It's a wonderful cult of people. I want to take care of animals, be nice to animals, but they're, very tribal, very

Bible, very cult like and, if you say anything, that's negative against vegans they gang up. I go to forums and I read that things. They say they organize like little troll attacks and they make Youtube videos. It's kind of hilarious, like from a psychological standpoint. Yeah I mean you know. Obviously I don't want to become a new religion for my my one religion, but I'm There is a moral high ground to the position that I find very attractive because I felt like a hypocrite as a mediator, now and I don't think it's necessarily extends to someone like you who hunts and feels ok about hunting I don't have an argument against hunting in the way I do against factory foreman or more me, I'm more moral as any of the way we get me. You know the the environmental implications of it, but it's some. So it is very. Captivating as a position and you feel like an on ass once you want to go far enough into the the inquiry you feel.

Make an asshole not being sensitive to these concerns and just- ignoring how you're getting your food three times a day, but. I'm not your for me and maybe I'm sure, there's individual variation and I'm not the smartest vegetarian in the world. In terms of how I prepare my food and how attentive I am to it so the owners of someone on me, but I am I'm not totally sure it's the healthiest thing for me, yet Riley or so you say this started, you said you look healthy. I feel like my health is somewhat with the rain under this has been about nine months: withering. Are you getting your blood checked? Are you doing yeah twelve supplementation, Tatian, yeah, ascential b12, essential d3 is essential as well. Most people are just not going to get enough from the sun and are you monitoring your intake of fatty acids and things along those lines not really beyond.

Supplementation. I'm I'm just trying to get the food in yeah. Well, it's it's all good stuff, but it's really important like there's one things that people rage against. Unfortunately, it's the stigma and its fats, its diete, cholesterol, diet, cholesterol and saturated fats, which are critical for hormone production. It's one of the reasons why people when they get an all vegetable diet, if they're not really careful with coconut oil, you gotta eat a lot of coconut oil. I'm a big fan, avocados I eat a lot of avocado is a lot of oil Coconut oil as well, though almond butter, nuts things on those lines like you really need to get those essential fats. Well, actually I'm not vegan. So I would like to begin, but but I'm leaving Darian. How could you say you would like to be no ones holding you know. What's holding you down, so God damn it SAM? You need to have some milk, no, I think I think I would screw it up. I mean again I'm going to reap the whirlwind run from the

vegans, but should buy some eggs. I you know, but I I eat eggs in. I eat eggs in a dairy, but as you can only eat, so many eggs and and so much Terry I eat a lot of eggs. Legs are very good for you to be here and there's another thing. Dietary cholesterol, like people are always concerned with dietary cholesterol. Well, that was a big myth for the longest time. As a matter of fact, dietary cholesterol barely moves the needle on blood lipids a lot of people have cholesterol issues it. Sedentary lifestyle? There's genetics there's all sorts of other variables, but people with healthy lifestyles. It doesn't seem to be that dietary cholesterol is bad for you and also it's essential for testosterone production, yeah yeah! So now I get a ton of not ton, but I'm not trying to avoid sad. Is that right away? So I am I get it Do you have any hard uh

yeah. Could you raise some chickens? No? No, not not not! That kind of enough of yard house after this I'll take you to my house. I will show you the chicken setup we have. We just got five new ones and we have eighteen. Now one of them died. They just fucking die sometime. Front? You don't know why? But now I just going to check and coupons dad like all right by the time got in there with his size and getting kind of old. Now, some of them. I don't know how old the chicken lasts honestly, but they're like pets. They give you a hoot like there's, no negativity. I opened the door they come up to me, the run around- I feed them like there's no they're, not trapped as a matter of fact they go into their their pen at night, like you leave it open and they wander around. My have a big yard. They wander in my yard. They eat a bunch of bugs and stuff, and then they go back inside when they want to. Right. So there's no like animal captivity is no cruelty. There's nothing! We going on and so those eggs they're pretty much karma free, oh yeah, yeah. No, I don't doubt that it's

So when you read the details of how are dairy and- and these are gone. I mean it's, it's arguably as bad, if not worse, than much of the meat production. So moving from eating eating me to being a vegetarian in some ways, is a symbolic move? Ethically, if you, if you really wanted to to not participate, get in the machinery, but there's an issue with mail app store the terrain is, and there is an issue with the the how the gather food I mean. Do, there's a giant issue that people don't want to take into consideration is like how are they growing all this food, how they growing all these plants? Well, one of the things they're doing is they're displacing wildlife that chewing this ground in the com. Bynes. If you eat grain in particular, combo when's, indiscriminantly just chew up all that stuff and they get deer. Fons mice, rabbits rats, rodents, Unt.

Told amount of bugs if you want to get really deep mean, there's no like being a vegan and being a vegetarian is most certainly less cruel and less harmful overall, but it's not karma free. It can't be unless you're growing your own stuff, If you can grow all your own vegetables and you essentially live on a small farm yeah, you could you could do it and really feel good. But it's if you buying it in a store you participating in factory farming, whether you like it or not, you just participating it vegetable farming, but it's there's still issues. Oh yeah, yeah yeah. I just just viewer this guy on my podcast Uma Villetti who's running this company called Memphis meats, which is cultured meat, the start up in Silicon Valley, okay, and they try. Try that I haven't tried it. No, I want. I want to try it, but it was a fascinating conversation because he me basically it what's what's

fascinating. To me on on two levels is one this is fascinating, were on the cusp of being able to produce actual, you know biologically identical meat. That is, that is, the media is it's, it's there's, no, there's no implication cruelty at all and right and you just would just grow grow this in a vat. The way you you know brew beer essentially, and so that's That seems like the future, but what's interesting psychologically, is that people have this. This creepy feeling around it, which is very strange because so I'm telling you I can take the misery and death out of the process right. I can take the suffering animal out of it. I can take the chaos of the Slaughter house out of it. There's no cows has been mistreated for its whole life stumbling in blood and feces on the way to the you know the killing floor and

somehow removing all of that makes it creepy for people right. They want they want. They want that. I mean that's the natural way to get me. Then. If I told you this is grown in a vat by a guy in a white lab coat and is no xeno. Versus and no bacteria nothing. You know antibiotics are used to pump this thing up and it's just cells. You want people start to get this kind of an ick feeling that that I think we're going to get over. But it's interesting psychologically that it's there in the first, did you get that egg feeling or you just try to know the people now I I I understand it. I mean I I'm I'm past it, but I I understand who you know they got it that just just. I just see the reaction that when I actually pulled this on twitter and twenty five percent of people, like fifteen thousand people, to answer the poll. So it was like it was a it's not a scientifically

our poll of the general population, just whoever got on my on my feet, but I'm it was interesting to see. I I I asked you know of the people who wouldn't switch, as I asked. Would you switch and something like eighty percent said they would switch if this was a affordable and available and save but of the people who wouldn't switch, it was twenty five percent wouldn't switch, because it's just creepy and twenty five percent assume that it was not healthy. I think I forgot to put the four down another twenty five percent were already vegan or vegetarian and didn't want to eat meat, but there's there was ick factor factor for at least twenty five percent of people who wouldn't do it. I understand. I wonder how many people would go back to eating meat if they could raise it. This way like how many, People have gone vegan would go back to eating this scientifically created lab created beef. I think

a not for a series market yeah for sure. Will there be a serious market for for sure if they could get the it cost effective because of last so it's like quarter million bucks for cheeseburger thing is down. I think it's not eighteen thousand dollars from people, eventually be like you know. The APOLLO computers now fit in your pocket. Much stronger, in fact, then, the pollen computers sequencing the genome. This this, I just notice, which is faster, see using the genome fifteen years ago, cost three billion dollars. It's now three thousand whoa, why it's a a million fold reduction in cost in fifteen, that's insane, so something like that things tend to scale that way. So yeah. That's a giant scale, though, when you talk about human history, good Lord match, if you're a guy who spent three billion of it fifteen years ago, God, if I just fucking, waited here, what a save so how much money and that's uh! We don't anticipate that.

When we think of how difficult it is to solve certain problems, we don't- and this is Ray Kurzweil's point Ray Kurzweil, who I think is is a bit of a cult leader and a car evil on many topics this this point he makes again and again I think, it's quite valid, which is when you're factoring how difficult it will be to get into the end zone. Whatever that end zone is right, you're not tending factor all of the improvements and and the compounding improvements in technology along the way. So I would love get back to record as well, but I want to bring up this point about. Did you one of things about going vegan, especially when you per claim, and you go public with going vegan? If you check out of that yeah one. That's where that's where I am as a vegetarian. They get fucking money being watched, yeah they gay. Mad? Did you see that family a couple that runs a bunch of vegan restaurants and

and they decide to start eating meat again, even though they run vegan restaurants? They decided to start, they have their own farm, they raise their own cattle and they decided eating their own cattle. It was really weird, too because they brought there was a lot of Jesus in their message. There was a lot of like Jesus said that you know we're supposed to take care of the analytic biblical quotes you know like really obscure, biblical quotes about food or ok like what are are you doing here, but they here. It is Vegans vegan, against owners of famous la vegan restaurants after meat eating outed. Well, I think I don't think you could say the out because I'm pretty sure they put it on their facebook. Page aware about was like first cheese burger in fifteen years. Is this this cafe gratitude? Yes, yes, the the only other thing. That's hilarious about that restaurant, which I like it that the food is good, What have you been there? No, so everyone now forgive me if this is no longer true.

But at one point every employee there did the landmark forum. You know the success to ask: that's right: they get sued for that who got this this to this roster as one of the reasons why they closed one of the restaurants yeah, but explain that, though, because okay so landmark so as to which I've never done this so again, I'm speaking outside the the cold walls, but so Werner Erhard was a a you know. Human potential figure who started asked never met him. But you know obviously impressive enough as a person to get a lot of people to spend a lot of time doing whatever he said, and he had. Had this growth course called asked, which has been.

I've seen it in many movies. No name comes to mind now, but so is some version of this. Where you can keep everyone in the room, many people have to ask permission to go to the bathroom in this kind of. Did that cup pressure cooker situation socially, were you have ever one sort of torn down, actually the the the the classic case of this. I think this is this. Wasn't as as was the form which is now the successor to ask They were all at one point hired to do. Coaching of you know various companies and I think, the high by the FAA. I wrote about this one of my books. As in a footnote, I was the f, a FAA hired the forum to coach there, their administrators and one of the exercises they forced these guys to do is they almost certainly were mostly guys they chained the the boss to his secretary. I had for like the whole day and they had to go to the bathroom together and like this sort of

ego annihilating experience anyway. This is this is the the recipe that that one of the recipes that that asked his pioneered This is not to say that people don't go to the form to get a lot out of it, and I I've actually met those people, but the I'm. Every employee of this restaurant apparently has gone now or you used to could do the four I'm. So it's a very a you walk into the restaurant and your interaction with with people the restaurant is is on like the in most restaurants, people. Just very you know, it's a lot of eye contact and and it's just it's intense, intense restaurant and also the stuff in the menu. This is just. Lacerating, I can never comply, but the the the name of everything on the menu is like. I am humble I am magical Iam Iam Self assured, so you have to you're meant to order it. That way, like I am humble

oh god, I'll have an. I am humbled so given to you, it's your humble, so that's that becomes little that goes along way in the restaurant. Ok, well, they're retarded! That's! What's good and if you go to is good, though I I don't don't give me the wrong way. The food is good, well that it makes sense, then that they would go all Jesus the religious see when they were trying to justify their meat consumption Jamie. Sixteen you pull up the quotes for them justifying their meat consumption because it was real weird, as I How weird is that these guys are like using Jesus and religion to justify eating cows when they've been of even for those years like did you not listen to Jesus all those other years like you like fuck, you Jesus, I'm not eating meat like what was the what was the turn around there? It doesn't make any sense. Well, I don't think you can pull veganism out of the Bible and less well. I guess, if you go back to the guard and there's nothing about them, eating meat right it just it was all provided from the tree.

There is no slaughter house in the in the garden and budgetary. An ism is fairly old. Man he's. Terrian ISM has been around in hindu cultures and certainly different cultures forever, but not veganism. Right, I mean veganism is really fairly. Recent is pretty impractical. Sorry, ok, hurting remnants of our best tools, restore fertility to the earth, keep the earth covered in reverse, dessert, vacation and climate change. He wrote we need cows to keep the earth live, cows make an extreme sacrifice for humanity, but that's their position and in God's plan as food for the predators, wo huh, that's a strange quote, but I think there was more of 'em, but that's good enough, but there was there was more of that kind of stuff. Like all the sudden he's a predator like predators, go after animals, they chase him down and they kill him. I guess work kind of predators in a way, but where some new thing, where some completely new thing, we we

these weapons or we corral them and if you've got corralled- and you just stick in that no country for old, one thing in their head like tank and killing him with it. I mean that's what they're doing right, if you doing that, I don't know if you're allowed to have a predator well historically were predator, yes, Miss Joanne and chips are predators, not not entirely, but they are that too we're certainly kind of a predator, but were so much different now, and this is what we're talking about we're talking about factory farming and these weird businesses where they slam all these animals, these entirely too small places and they live in their own feces and urine and I'm sure, you've seen that drone footage from the pig farm. I've seen a lot of pig farm footage, but I don't know if I've seen the drone footage. I don't think I've seen lake

of urine feces, it's disgusting, it's unbelievable! They dis guy, flew this thing. I mean they have these AG gag laws which are evil and if you don't know what those means, what that means AG gag laws or laws that they make it. A federal crime to show all of the abuse use of these animals to show factory farming because it'll affect the business so drastically and so radically. When people are exposed to the truth, they've made it illegal. Those laws should be illegal. Those are scary, the scary aspect of human beings. I've never seen this with some toxic lake, that's a lake of pee and poo, and all those things are stuffed to the gills with pigs. There's a book eating animals, Jonathan Safran Foer's book, which is worth reading. If you think you're immune to

the details 'cause, it's just I mean, there's, there's two aspects to it: there's the cruelty aspect, which is actually three aspects: the cruelty aspect, which is horrific, there's the environmental energy use issue, which is also just totally untenable, and then there's just the if you have any concern about your own health and the contamination I mean just just getting all these the biotics that you know, weren't prescribed to you that you don't want that- are still getting into you through this this food chain- and I mean just the stuff that they, like the the the chickens, admitted that just the details about chicken farming as as almost the most horrible, but I mean they're, they're they're covered in just just the most of the foulest. No pun intended that the it is the more

disgusting material, they going to collect a broth, that's just like pure bacteria, and I mean they have to be washed with just by ammonia or whatever they do they put on them, is just to really watch with my head, and I I I I forget the details, but it's just that the read Jonathan Safran Verna Safran Force Book on this is just the I the details of what goes on from the chickens. Actually, I think largely because they are so small and it more of them process of killing. Them is automated that they almost got the worst of it because they're I mean they're. Just there, like you know there getting singed before they're stun. Before that I mean it's just it's just not. I mean that

the cow you've got a single person interacting with a single cow. However, briefly and it's there's less chaos and in them in the machinery, but chickens just get pulverized, and I think I mean that's. Arguably, that's the one of the the greatest pain points ethically comes around it, just just the egg industry because fully half the chickens that the mail checks just immediately get get thrown into a literally like a meat grinder, because they're not the same chick in that is a broiler chicken. I mean the genetically they're, not the same: they don't they don't grow into the same kinda. Chicken. That would be useful, so they're useless, and so there They don't lay eggs and you don't eat them, and so they just get literally just fed into a like a wood. Chipper alive me this now. Is that the end, but again it this is an

some ways, an artifact of them being so small that it would be so much of a hat just too much of a hassle to stun them appropriately right, they had they made along. We had to bury the mom put little crosses in the ground, be labor intensive, Jesus, I mean I was by the billions and billions you know I was on the highway and there was a chicken truck. That was passing me. One of those trucks that can Bing live chickens and they just stacked. Just act in cages on top of each other cage on top of cage and shitting on each other, I'm watching this and like it's so weird that were allowed to do that with some animals like if you we're doing that with horses, people would lose their fucking minds. Have you had dogs in boxes like that stack, but in the open air on the highway and you're driving down the road with them, people would freak out but no bats, and I these chickens, this chicken truck is a chickens are weird thing. We have like a higher

Marquis of animals that we love and we're not really big into reptiles, no, not really big into birds. It has something to do. I think, with facial expressiveness a little bit, and miss of fish are also way down like the fact that fish have these cold expression was faces, no matter what happens that some that cuts down on empathy, but it is I think it's it's size, it's facial display and it's also a bit is the sounds. They make right so that you know if a lot Sir could scream every time it went to the pot and it would be there different encounter with you know, just how much do I want to eat this thing and so something obviously like an ape or something that's cute. It's amazing what a what a fluffy tail will get you in the different squirrel in a rat right. It's not it's crazy! It is crazy. Squirrels just hang out with everybody were cool with them. They look so close to rap. They, like God, I'm so close. It's like

a hot girl sister, it's like what the fuck so so much is so close. There was an circle today about some woman who had rescued a lobster from a restaurant. Dropped it off in the ocean and the journey of this all and how you should think of this lobster something with a cute face and if you did, then you would appreciate her efforts and understand that this lobster, even though they're not even capable filling pain in lobsters they don't have enough nervous system. There nervous system is not strong enough for them to feel pain. They don't have the same sort of sensors that we have allegedly I threatened to do this action when I, when I decided to be I'm a vegetarian. I said at some point, maybe I will just do it a taxonomy of the kind of a comparative neuroanatomy across species just to see where we could plausibly say you know the suffering really begins to matter or symbol

anything, no actually there, there are what are called by Val Vegans who eat clams and oysters and mussels, and I could get in as I think that you know, there's no and a and make an argument that there's no basis for suffering there yeah. Well, if there's no feeling, there's no suffering my arg, against that, though, is lobsters, are clearly not happy when you throw in boiling water, that reaction, I think, eh the thing that can behave. They can move right, move away from a stimulus, the or the evolutionary rationale for it to experience pain on seven. They that the question of consciousness is difficult in a where consciousness emerges, and I think there is clearly unconscious pain mechanisms. I mean the name, mechanisms that give us pain at a certain level. We can be unconscious and yet they can be just as effective. I all of our reflexes are like that, so you touch

hot stove you're, pulling your hand away actually before you consciously registered it, and that's as it should, because you're faster that way it's possible to have unconscious pain, but anything they can move very quickly. Going to evolve and ability to move away from noxious stimuli and that. There's every reason to make that you know in in, in evolutionary terms as salient and as as urgent as possible, and then our pain response is that for us, and it is there's no reason to withhold that from any other animal. That's clearly avoiding stuff, with all of its power right Yeah. It seems to me that there's got to be all the way down to mushrooms because everybody eats mushrooms, even vegans but mushrooms breathe in oxygen and they breathe out carbon dioxide their way close for humans than they really are, plants. There weird

there's a strange sort of an organism that yeah they're, not necessarily like a plant. I mean we think of him as planet 'cause they grow, but are fungus yeah to type of life form any interlink through the mycelium yeah yeah, oh yeah! Well, Terence Mckenna, if you got talking on mushrooms long enough, he would there's some very spooky stuff. He thought with them, but there's no nervous system. There I mean, I think I think the crucial variable is the complexity of a nerve system so suffering in pain in emotions. Yeah I mean when you're when you're, so there's suffering is one component of it. But there's just the question of what sort of experience can this creature

right right. So when you ask a like a like, why is it a tragedy or why would be a tragedy to to kill someone painlessly in their sleep right? So there's no suffering there right and if anything, you've just ended whatever suffering they were gonna have in their future right. Why would that be a tragedy if it happened to all of us tonight right Disney, the some some neurotoxin comes down from space and kills us all in our sleep and know stuff things associated with it. The only you know, eh, please speaking, the only problem there and it's a huge one is that it forecloses all of the possible happy futures. Most of us are all of us, or at least some of us going to have so. The all of the good things that we could have done over the next million years are going to get done. All of the beauty of the creativity all of the joy, all of that just gets cancelled, and so so leaving the painfulness of pain aside. You know why

is it wrong to deprive give an animal of life well they're in so far as that life has a intrinsic value and so far is that in so far as the being an animal is better than being nothing right, then you're also just canceling. All of that good stuff, and for that you know for any good stuff, you need a nervous system, yeah, F and for any pain you need. A nervous system is a course. We understand this. There are people who said you say any good stuff I couldn't like experiencing any reason. I just movement, though right like only being prejudice about the experiences that plants are having by by being in mobile. You know if you ever thought paid attention to some of the more recent research on plant, intelligence and weird stuff. That's going on with them calculations and there

exuding from expressing some sense that causes when they're being eaten, causes other other plants down wind of change, the flavor yeah knowing predation. There was a new Yorker article on this when this came out yeah we it's weird, there's where there's free stuff that plants do which- and I remember that details of that article aren't so clear to me. I remember not knowing what to think about some of it, but some of it clearly can be explained in evolutionary terms that doesn't imply any experience it just. It could all be dark. It's all blind mechanism, but it still has an the car fitness. As we know it is what's most valuable to you. Well, I think it's the only thing, that's valuable to anything. It's like it when you we're going talk about value. So it's like you know if this cup, has no experience right of if my trading places with it in so far as you can make sense of that concept

is synonymous with with just canceling my experience. Well, then, there's no there's! This cup is unconscious. There's nothing that is like to be the cop. When I break it, I haven't created suffering. I haven't, I haven't, die, anything unethical to the cup, I have no ethical responsibilities toward the cup at the moment. You give me something that can can be made happy or made miserable, depending on how behave around it or toward it. Well, then, I am ethically entangled with it and then and then that be things to scale in, I think fairly linear way with just how complex the thing is so and maybe something we even talked about on a previous podcast you know, if I'm driving home today and I bug him my windshield- you know that that has whatever ethical implication has, but it's given what I believe about bugs and given how small they are and given how little.

I do and given how primitive their nervous systems are. You know I'm not going to lose sleep over killing a bug If I hit a squirrel, I'm going to feel worse, I had a dog I'm going to feel worse than if it was kid. Obviously I made never get over it. Even if I live to be a thousand right, so the ski and and granted there cultural accretions there. So you likely. Can I justify the way I feel about a dog as opposed to a deer. You know that there's a difference, but the the difference is one of richness of experience in so far as we understand what other species experience you could make that argument to justify eating animals as opposed to being a cannibal right. You could say: well, kind of experience. Does a deer have they're just running around the woods? Try not to get eaten,

they eat grass. They made it's very simple. It's a very simple experience in comparison to your average person that lives in LOS Angeles then reads books you know I mean someone who goes on a lot of trips. Someone has a lot of love ones, someone who has a great career, someone is deeply invested in their work, who's going to the dealership, killed, yeah, yeah, there's much more complexity and the deer behave just as deer all over the place and it's a very primitive sort of a life form. Well, if you go further for the back like what did it seems like you can keep going with that and one of things that that concerns me the most about plants, not concerns me but puzzles me. The most about plans is whether or not the way I look at them me personally. My prejudices about them, just not thinking at all of them as being conscious. What if we think about things in terms of the complexity of their experiences. Just because we're we're prejudiced about things that move me it's entirely possible that like skin, is really stupid, but I've said a lot of stupid

yeah, I went into a grow room once like a pot, grow room sky had his MAC. Daddy grow room and I walked in. I was like this. This is like being in a room full of people. This feels weird as fuck. It filled it felt very weird. It fell like there was a tangible like vibe of life in there and there's no other way to describe that without sound, like a complete moron, but but it was My experience, I know what it's like to be there or on, but you know what I mean take enough acid, you you, and you know what to talk. I'm not saying that we should meet plants, I'm not dogs who people were ready up in arms of their twitter finger just reading it off. But what I am saying is it's entirely possible that all things that are alive have some sort of a way of of being conscious, may not be mobile, may not be as ICS oppressive, but there might be

the stillness of you without language when you're in a place of complete peace when you're in a Zen meditative state. What about that stillness is really truly associated with being a human, are really truly associated with being an English speaking person in North America, almost nothing? It's just an existence right and then everything else, sort of branches. Out from that and then humans. We all make the agreement that occur, the branches out, far further and wider than any other animal. But how do we know that these plants aren't branching out like that too? How do we know that that there having some communication with each other if there are responding to predation if their litter, be changing their flavor of they're. Doing all these calculations and all these strange things that they're finding out that plants are capable of doing what what is going on there, we don't know necessarily yeah, I'm agnostic on the question of how far down consciousness goes, and I agree that there's

very likely, a condition of something like pure consciousness. That really is separable from that. Details of any given species. I mean it sounds something that I've experienced myself. It feels like. You certainly have this experience. What its implications are. I don't know, but you can have the experience of just consciousness and it doesn't have any personal or even human reference point, it's not you're, not even it doesn't even have a reference point in one of the channel. The human sense so you're not seen you're, not hearing or not smelling, and not thinking and your e at you are you. So there is still just you know, open conscious, x, and whether that is, that is what it's like to be a plant. I don't know you know I I because I don't know what the relationship to between consciousness and information processing in the brain,

Actually is, though, it's not. You know it's. It's totally plausible, in fact, I think, probably the most plausible thesis that there is some direct connection between information processing and the integrated information for assessing end consciousness and that there is nothing. That's like be this cup and you know and Adams are not conscious and and and but yet, but that the thesis that every that consciousness goes all the way down into the the the most basic constituents of matter that that thesis is called panpsychism in philosophy and that's pan, everywhere psychism mind so that mind is in in sometimes everywhere in nature, That's, not you can't rule that out, I mean there's we know about the world to rule that out but I think you can rule out is the they cut the richness of the contents of consciousness in these species, and so so play

answer not having conversations like this right so plants don't understand what we're doing. No way they would there's just no. They don't have nervous systems are not that they can't be processing in in a way that would give them. What we know is a rich experience, but your point about that I'm scaling movement is totally valid. If, if every time you walk into a room, your you know your fern just turned in and looked at you, you know just oriented toward you you know and and follow you around the room with its you know, with its leading branch, you would feel very different about it's the the possibility that is conscious right. It would be a good person ass. This is Anna in urban myth that if you sing to your plants, your player plants music, that they grow better uh, I haven't looked into it. I would we need to find. I would bet that it is. Yes sounds like one of those things that chicks who, like crystals, tell you. I would bet but if I sing to my flowers and they grow so beautiful yeah, it seems like

one of the things that people say, I'm definite not insinuating. The plants would have as rich an experience as human beings, but I don't think a deer has as rich in experience. You know as a human being either and it just to me my my my curiosity lies in the future of understand plant intelligence like, wouldn't it be fascinating if we found out that they like one of the reasons why psychedelic drugs puzzle me so much is that they exist in like there's a lot of plants, you could just eat them and you have. Your brain already has this place: it'll go if you eat these plants like if you eat peyote, if you, if you try to San Pedro cactus out this spring, you can you can. I have like these really powerful psychedelic experiences just from a plant like. Why does the human mind interactive these plants like that, like specially fungus, and you have like major league mushroom trips, it's very strange sort of feeling, like your income,

occasion with another and Mckenna described it best in that way, that there's someone there that it's not just just you and hallucinations it has this distinct feeling that there's someone there that someone according to the hippest of hippies is plan intelligence, it's my mother, Gaia, it's the earth itself, it's all life, it's love, it's God. It's all! It all exists inside the the intelligence, that's intertwined in nature, is one of the most things that one of the things that's most puzzling about the most potent of all psychedelics dimethyltryptamine that it's in so many different plants make to make dimethyl domain containing plants illegal, would be hilarious, 'cause would be like hundreds and hundreds of plants that have to make illegal like, including like Polaris Grass, so it's really rich and five methoxy dimethyltryptamine, which is the most potent form of it.

Also our own brains, so things in their own friends make every every break. Every brain makes it a little weird little lizards that have retinas and lenses where their pineal gland is there. Taking it in their little screw little lizard brains. We don't even know what the hell is for, like the actions about it? Just was so much there's so many more questions and their answers. They, you pay attention to Rick Strassman stuff, the general, Did you know that the cotton Wood Research foundation actually found my brains produce dimethyltryptamine? So it's been proven. It's actually growing in the pineal gland that they're always yeah. I know yeah yeah. I I assume that I had to yeah. I got the book or not, but that's crazy as a neuroscientist, like does not kind of freak you out that those are options had those third eyes and like all the eastern mysticism had that piney gland highlighted it was like on the

end of shafts or staff. They would put those pine cones like how the hell they know all that. Well, there is a word I metaphor or it's not as more than a metaphor anatomically, but it's. It's a it's an correlates with kind you can have. I don't actually know if the the experience people have. That's it. You know the of this shock originated talking in yoga terms. I don't know if that has anything to do with the pineal gland, and I I it may be because I don't know I don't anyone's done this rise and imaging experiment where you can get people who can reliably produce one slash three, my opening sort of experience and scan their brains while they do it. In fact, I'm I'm almost positive that hasn't been done, but There is a phenomenology here of of people having a

kind of inner opening of it's almost certainly largely a matter of of visual cortex getting stimulated. But you can you can meditate in such a way as to produce this experience and. It's also is is an experience that you have more or less on on different psychedelics. Some say dogs are much more visual than others and that at certain doses in particular like MIKE Mushrooms and anti Anti, which I've never taken which which you know, as you can say better than I, but it's it's reported to be quite visual and the I am the experience, the so in most people when they close their eyes unless they had to having hypnagogic imagers before sleep or they just happen happen to be. You know, super good visualize or is of of imagery close your eyes, and you just basically have darkness there right now. Now

if you close your eyes and if you're listening to this and you close your eyes and you look into the darkness of your closed eyes. That actually is that's it. That's that it is much your visual field as it is when your eyes are open right, I mean it's not like your visual. It hasn't gone away when you close your eyes, it's just that is now there's not much detail for you to notice again, unless you are in some unusual state, but that you know based on on different techniques of meditation, and this happened spontaneously again with hypnagogic images or or with psychedelics. That's space can open up in to a

massive world, a visual display right to university of a full blown, you know three d movie in there I'm and it's a a, but most of us just take it for granted that when you close your eyes, you keep your functionally blind. You can't see anything and we're not we're not interested in that space, but you can actually train yourself to look. Do Billy into that space as a as a technique of meditation. I don't hear up to but doesn implications in people having eye witness testimony, and I witness experiences that turned out to not be true at all, because if you think about the the the human mind in the imagination be able to being able to great imagery once the eyes are closed, like you can in sensory deprivation tanks like ten century Deborah, you can't answer that a lot of people's experiences are very visual, even though it's in complete darkness. Now you know how people see things and they thought they saw something, and it turns out to not be true at all whether it's big,

foot, whether it's a robbery or a suspect in they to get the details completely alright, but isn't it simple, that under fear and when your your pulse is jacked up in your adrenaline is running and your way read about all these possibilities in your imagination starts. Formulating pre did woman possibilities. You should be looking out for like what, if it's Bigfoot, what if it the what if it's an alien would've, it's of this and then these people that swear. They saw these things that everybody knows they didn't like. Maybe there is video footage of whatever it was. Is it that your brain can do that to you, and you can literally show you things that aren't real, oh yeah they can do that, although I think the unreliability of witness testimony and it's it's shockingly on Bible is more a matter of memory that the corruption of and the way memories are recall there especially vulnerable

when you're recalling but it can be revised in the act of recall and it's very easy to hamper with, his memory. You know, albeit inadvertently, amazed at the you can do this on purpose to, but but people to do it with bad interrogation techniques. So you know that the the cop will ask you. So when did you see the you know, the woman at the crosswalk and he's just put a woman at the cross walk into your memory right because you you can't help but visualize a woman at the crosswalk right and is this a is? This memory is very fragile. And so when your whenever you're, giving an account of an experience. Even if it's an experience that happened half a second ago, Now we're in the domain of memory now in the domain of of of just what you can report, we're, not it's not a matter of what you're consciously experiencing Now I know there was a case in India, where uh he was a woman was convicted. Of murder, through the you,

I have an F mri or a phone actioning magnetic resonance imagery machine an through the, F Mri they determined in some strange way that she he had functional knowledge of the crime scene and the r going against. That, I believe, was that she could have developed function, member of the crime scene by being told you're being prosecuted for a crime? You might go to jail for murder, here's the crime scene like it's or or just being unlucky enough to. We familiarise normally when gets done and they're people who do it in the states, but they don't use Fmri as their modality, but they do, they do so interrogate bulls familiarity and they they use the g as a as a I'm as a way of monitoring they're familiar I'll show them. You know if you

are shown evidence from the crime meaning that only the perpetrator could have seen you know. Hopefully it's really something that only the perpetrator could have seen. But if you know, if the show you the picture- and you know you see, though yeah I you know- I have that I KIA and table- and you know I have that- dress from but Banana republic whatever that, just by dint of bad luck, you're familiar with with something that you're being the crimes in the specially. If it's a murder you're talking about someone who's, she was probably intimate with. She probably knew them at least so she's, probably house yeah. I don't I, and that would be obviously a case where you really couldn't do it at all. How does it work why? I know no one in the states as far as I know, unless this is changed in the last year or so, since I paid attention to this, you can't it's not. None of this is admissible in court, where only on the he has only the one case that I've ever heard. Yeah I mean, is it crazy, the premature use of the technology, but how does a technology work like? What is it? What is it actually seen where you have

if, with the eg? I think this has worked out more you can. I have a a kind of canonical Millie Arity response to a stimulus if you've seen something again have you seen something for the first time. You know it would the novelty response seen something for the third fourth fifth time would be a different response, and you can. This has been again, it's been a long time said. Look at this particular research, and I don't know how you know. I don't know what they're calling these these wave forms. Now I mean it was a p three hundred waveform one point in their their way, forms that come from certain areas of the brain at certain timing intervals based on you know, from the moment of receiving a stimulus in a less a photograph and they are the hallmark of either being familiar or not. With with this thing and

yeah. So I mean it's not there's no question that at a certain point We will have reliable mind reading machines. I think I'm I'm not. I think it's really just a matter of time. I think there's also no question that we don't have them now. It is at least not in a way that we can. We can send someone going to prison on the basis of what their brain did an experiment but I mean just just as you anything well Not a lot of this. The most interesting stuff is unconscious, but anything you're consciously aware of having seen before right. So if you, if you were to show me this cup right and then five seconds later say, is this. The cup I showed you, you know I have a very clear sense of yeah. That's the cup right. So if you show me a completely different cup, I'm going to have a very clear internal sense of no that's, not the cup. If you're having

add experience, you know that that is absolutely so. Thing about the state of your brain that can be discriminated by a person outside your brain running the appropriate experiment. It's just our tools are still sufficiently course that you know this not like, you know, sequencing your dna, where we can say yeah. That was you and your blood at the crime scene, but eventually it will be. It will be just be no basis to doubt it because I'll be able to put you through a paradigm where uh, it will just be clear. I know your thoughts right so think of how much faith you would have in this technology if you could

Open your computer and read any file a file of your choosing that I have never seen right to the contents of which are completely completely blind to and I'm scanning your brain while you're reading this journey entry or newspaper article or whatever, and at the end of that I can say well based on this Poor, you clearly read a story about Donald Trump and you actually don't like Donald Trump. And I could tell you you know in detail about you know what you were consciously thinking about yeah, if you did that, if you could do that, a hundred percent of the time right at a certain point, the basis to doubt the validity of the the mind reading, She would just go away you just it would be like a you know. It's like. Are you here really hearing my voice right now? Yeah yeah, you certainly seem to you know, and it's it's just. It would become a just a a background assumption that the technology works at a certain point-

just as the meat is scary, the fake meat that I he is terrifying, the idea of losing the losing the translator thought yeah the ownership like losing thing becoming Non autonomous like the idea everybody is sharing thoughts. It seems almost inevitable. Well, this You know, I don't know that we would decide to do this. Certainly I don't think we would do this all the time right in the, if maybe Sunday, when I'm done but no option, we might be compelled to do it in the if, if you're in a murder trial right, if you'd rather someone who may have killed somebody, you knew you- I mean it it. The fifth amendment becomes interesting in that case, but we have worked that out for dna evidence right. So you you have a right to take the fifth, but you don't have a right to withhold. Blood from the preceding. So I get I get to look at your blood or saliva, so you don't have to talk, but I can read your mind: yeah yeah and that's uh. That's a well, and it's

is like the Iphone case. You know it's like I. I know we've thus far decided that we can't compel apple to unlock an Iphone. This is just the ultimate case that say you, the the the the argument in favor of apple is. This is far too intimate and far too comprehensive a look at a person's mind. And once you've have cracked their Iphone, you you're basically walking around the corridors of their brain that That's a slippery slope. We don't want to go down, but ultimately we will be able to do it with brains, and I think obviously, you're going to want all of the safeguards that

you can easily. Imagine, probably some you we have yet to imagine on this process, but with safeguards in place. I think this would be the best thing that could ever happen to us. In terms of of you know, when you look at a criminal justice system and that when you look at the price we pay for not being able to tell whether someone is innocent or guilty or whether their line it is just. It is the most intolerable price. The I see in society. It's just it's just amount of human misery born of not being able to damage great that someone is lying reliably is just you know, it's off is the biggest lever that I think the pole. Certainly when you have prisons that are filled with a lot of people that are probably in yeah yeah people have gone to the gallo there's. No doubt I mean we know. Innocent people have been K. And an I know so, one way to deal with as Azure be against the death penalty right. So there's always

chance to find their innocence, but imagine being in prison on death row for thirty years and you for a a rape you didn't commit, you know it's it's so horrible right so yeah. That would be the main major argument. It would be such a simple Lucian really now there are corner cases that don't be solved. I think there are people who are delusional or easily self deceived who either would be lying and but you know so convinced of the truth of their life, so that they would pass this. This a lie: detector, presumably. And then there are people who are so suggestible that they can be led to believe something. That's not true, and the people who can be convinced you get these false confessions of. In response to a crime I mean this is one of the strain

things in the world. But you know when, when someone gets murdered, this doesn't get publicized very much. But it's a very common experience of of police officers or police department to hear from people in the community who are confessing to the crime and they didn't commit. They just come in and say I did it and they they give all this. You know this ball, this account of what happened, and this is a sign of mental illness or you know these are people seeking a and in some more but way, but there are people clearly who are so suggestible that they can. Either lead themselves to believe or be led by uh to believe that they've done things they didn't do an in just

shocking detail. There was at another new Yorker article on them, I think, was written by William languish this years ago, but on a on a satanic panic case where a guy got accused of running a so Tanic cult by I think his daughter who was in you know, hypnosis recovery therapy right, so she had been led down the primrose path by her therapist, and so she obviously was fairly suggestible and she recalled the most lurid just insane. Rosemary's baby style cult imaginable, going on her town, where the friends of dad we're coming over and raping everyone, and it was going to go, get a human sacrifice of infants and them infants are buried by the barn and she work. All of this that dad

was so suggestible that he just confessed yeah. I think he was just he and he was giving more details and he a prison. I don't know what this is. Is this now an old articles by like ten or fifteen years old, but this guy, this guy just fully contest right and the the journalists. Why, I believe, was language at at the end. They actually did a test, they would, they would discuss now and present right. The process is completed. Justice has done. The daughter is convinced that her her dad is a satanic monster and, as he and he's now in prison,. And they went in and interviewed him asking follow up. Questions with just details that they made up right because they they began to suspect that he was just this kind of suggest ability, machine right who just would cop to anything and so they went in and it just made up stuff like. Oh, you know, there's a few more d

doesn't want to iron out. Your daughter said that there was a time where you know you got you brought in a horse and then you were riding on the horse and then you kill the horse ever this amount. Now making these details up that remember, but something that they just concocted right and he said oh yeah, yeah yeah, that some say and he just copied as it became like a twilight zone. Like perfect Twilight Zone episode where they like. Now you realize that this guy has been put away is just say yes to everything. Right and that's that's clearly the result of it. I don't know, So again, I don't know if he ever a follow up on this, because as I recall and this, this is like a fifteen year old story- it just they end did with like. You know the twilight Zone moment where now you realize this guy is innocent and just saying yes to everything and his dog crazy, sh right. She hires is gene, and I will I don't remember. I don't recall with the daughter did with that, but he I'm May eighth, the the story.

And perhaps there's more to the story, but the story on his face was totally exculpatory like a like the the the reader experience. Was you gotta let this guy to prison tomorrow? What hope Fakt and you need if he gets out, His mind is probably so screwed up by this whole experience and if you really does believe that he ran the satanic rituals, just the guilt and shame name of it. All I mean we're. Assuming that his mind works, I mean this is the thing that I wonder how many people are like functionally deeply deeply damaged, but they're functional like their there they're going to the same schools that you go? Do they work where you work, but they're barely a person there like all their connections? Are all fucked up like if you went to the back wiring or their head? Have you were like, appliance repair person like Sawyer TV is not working huh. Let me go back here. What fuck is all this mean how people like that are just sort of kind of functional. My question is: if we do get to we could read minds

if you go into their minds and you find out well, this is what they really think. This is not a liar. This is the person who's, seeing things that aren't there like a person who's completely delusional like people that have these hallucinate ing, hallucinate genic visions, like pizza people, have like really like deeply trouble. Bing visual images that they see magic. These poor fucking people really we're seeing that, and if you could read their mind, you would you would like literally be inside the mind of a person's mind, isn't functioning and we can get sort understanding about what that would be like yeah. Well, I mean this has been done in a very simple way where you could with schizophrenic so mostly have auditory hallucinations. You can now detect auditory cortex

activities, so mishaps, misinterpretation, wouldn't just aren't. We just know that they're they're, auditory cortices are active in the same way that when you're hearing my voice is going to be active when they're hearing internal voices, it's active well, that's crazy, which is what you would expect, the surprise would be, is the other way if nothing was going on in auditory cortex and they were hearing voices. Then then it would be more surprising to me. That's fascinating. You can watch the hallucination take place inside the mind of the person. You know, and you can stimulate hallucinations and in people. You can stimulate out of body experiences in people with transcranial magnetic stimulation How do they do that? They've been able to do that recently and to try to give people the same sort of experience that they claim to have had one like on the uh, getting table yeah. That's what people have a lot right when they're almost dead. What's going on? What is that.

Well, that is there's an area. I believe this is at the temporal parietal junction, which is sort of here. Where is pointing to above his ear yeah yeah yeah. Sorry, I'm talking talking to you not talking to the millions, but it's you know where the temporal lobe in the parietal lobes intersect and the I'm? I think it was first this covered in surgery on an epileptic so or in any every section of the brain where they see you. People are awake because that then there's no pain, sensors in the brain. So you can, you can stay awake while you're getting your brain surgery and they tend to, Keep you awake. If they're going to be removing areas of the brain, you know, let's say a tumor or the focus of an epileptic seizure,

and they don't want to remove the board working part, especially Lee, in a language she parts. So is so there, the keeping people awake and their propane those areas of the cortex to see what it's correlated with in the person's experience. So many so there have talk to have them answer, questions and they're and they're, putting in a little bit a current in that area, which would be disruptive of normal function, and you know you, you consider them mapping the mom almost entirely mapping language cortex when they do this, but there have been non expiry experiences where they they on under a surgeon will will put all current in in an area near this region of the brain, and people will have this out of body experience where there in the corner of the room. Looking

Down on their bodies were indeed the classic in astral projection experience or the or the the near death. That's where the people have risen out of their body or seemed over is out of their body, and consciousness now seems to be located elsewhere. Run and that's a dishes just that region of the of the brain is virtually every region of the cortex does many many things, there's no there's no one region of the brain. That does one thing and that, if a couple of exceptions to this, but the I'm a soak, the burn whole brain is participating in in much of what we do. This is greater or lesser degrees of activity, but in terms of mapping your body in space. This is you know. The put the parietal lobe is has got a lot to do with that and when that gets dissed

curbed, you can have weird experiences. You can have the experience of uh not recognizing your body or parts of your body like you know, like you, don't really like alien hand syndrome where you, like your this left arm, seems seems like another person's arm. You know, and people did try to disown half their body and you can trick people with visual, change. The display, like you, can you can wear head gear where you can make me feel like it's like a it's called. The body swapping allusion, I can feel like I am you located my consciousness- is located in your body. Looking back at me, there's a there's a ever experimented that they did where there is the ultimate extension of what what has long been called that the rubber hand illusion where you can. You can put it

my two hands on the table. Now you can set up an experiment where, if you put a rubber hand, if you set this up in a way where I am I am assuming I have my two hands here- you can and put a rubber hand in its place and touch touch this rubber hand with it with a brush right. So it's the so I'm seeing the rubber hand get touched with with a brush, and I can feel, like my hand, is being touched, looks like it might hand is being being touched. My hand is elsewhere under the table, be in touch with a brush at the same time, I'm. I can feel, like my hand, is now the rubber hand Rach it's so it's so it's so it's so that I can feel my hand is in place of the of the robber half based on visual and tactile

simultaneities. My seen the rubber hand get touch with a brush and my feeling my hand, which is now under the table be in touch with a brush. I'm not explaining that set up great, but people can look it up but you can do the same thing to a to the ultimate agree with this Video Gagal Display, where I'm getting input, visual input from where you're standing so like. If you come up to shake my hand right, I'm seeing you come up to me and shake my hand, but I'm seeing it from your point of view right so like I'm getting you know, visual input from from you know you you know. I now feel like I'm walking up to me shaking my hand right and you can you can just kind of feel like your consciousness is is out is is over there. You know outside hide your body, and it is just to say that there are set

of self or sense of being located where we are in our heads is largely, and in some cases almost entirely a matter of a vision. Right as a matter of is, is the fact that the fact that you feel you're over there is because your I mean that's where your eyes are you're behind your eyes. You feel like you're behind your eyes and when you and tricks of vision can can seem to dislodge that's that sense of being located there so stimulating one area of the brain electrically? I've been shown like even just transdermally. Just me, I guess what do they do they put little little? What are those It's called a little glue on things, true, yes areas and they can you're talking about eg there that's reading from brain rather than no I'm actually talking about some new experiments that they've been doing that they were talking about on radio lab and apparently there's a

to do it yourself, hers that you never ever listen to radio lab yeah. It's been awhile but yeah. Amazing podcasts like one of the best hour, but it has this one, an episode that dealt with people learning certain skills, while the outside of their brains being stimulated, with like a little electrode, and this woman, who is one of the reporters, went to a sniper training thing, but they set. The scenario and they give you like a fake gun. You point the screen. He tried to hit the targets, as all these things are happening, She did it once yeah nine volt Nirvana is the name of the so right right right. It is an outstanding, absolute, so fasting anyway, she goes through one she's, terrible at it. She just sucks terribly. Then they hook up to this machine. They attach this electro to a certain certain area of her brain stimulate one area of our brain, an she goes through it like a fucking sniper time slows down. She gets twenty out of twenty, so from being a complete failure to be awesome at it in some weird flow state that she described and they were

come out of the US government's using it they're trying to train soldiers and snipers and and people to try to, and this mindset, and try to cheat this mindset that they're trying to do it in there. Certain companies are experimenting with it, at least by stimulating the outside of your head. Was it so? I could not know this particular story. I remember hearing that title though, but the transcranial magnetic stimulation is magnetic energy, which is you know, the the the flip side of electrical energy. So if you, if you apply a big MAC, it to the side of your head, you are changing. You know the electrical properties of your cortex. Is that what they're doing well now, I'm wondering if they've just made a Trans cranial magnetic device so small that it it's I think it's magnets direct, current yeah, well yeah, ok, direct current stimulation, transcranial direct current stimulation, yeah! That's what it's called TCD

yeah so yeah, I'm I'm unaware of the specifics of this, but it true for a long time that, with with with a much bigger device in a lab, you can change a person's performance for good or for ill on on various tasks. Just pipe and- and it's just an elector- magnet, which is focusing, is energy on various areas of the cortex, so but our because what we are doing I mean you, are you are disrupting of neural firing, but you are, you can disrupt areas that are inhibiting other things you want to release. But it can be it's not always synonymous with the degradation of performance. You could. You could increase performance on a certain task by take in one region of the brain, offline or more or less offline, but

not you know, I'm not aware of how far they've taken in terms of doing anything that seems useful in terms of performing something. Maybe the the the research I'm a more aware of his chest. Using this to figure out what various regions of the brain are doing. I mean that that yeah kind of mapping function, because we want to see if I disrupt. An area here, what how does show up in an experiment, and that gives you some clue as to what that region is doing it used in that task as much as we know about the mind and being able to do things like this like. Overall, if you had a really like trying to map out the exact functions of the mind and how everything works, how far do I think we are along the understanding that we halfway. I think we understand half of how the brain works. No, I mean I wouldn't even know how to quantify it at this point. It's just We know a ton right, we know it's like. We know a lot about. You know where languages and wear facial wreck

mission is and so you're you're visual cortex has been really well mapped and we know a lot and the last one hundred and fifty years based on just new, logical injury and then, in the last decades, based on image, ingetec allergy. We know regions of the brain that you know absolute we govern language in regions of the brain that have basically nothing to do with language. You know to take one example and we know a lot about memory and we we know about a lot about that. The different kinds of memory up, but it's some there is. You know I think this pride is much more. We don't know, what's even more, I think I'm a Greatest friction in the system is like there's not often a lot to do with what we know right so like that,

like knowing is not enough for certain things not because to intervene is another part of process which, where there are no guarantees, I mean that the way we can intervene in the fun Do you have a brain is incredibly crude. You know pharmacologically it with surgery or with device like that. So to get to get a place of really refined knowledge to a place of being able to do some. Thing we want to do with that knowledge. That's another step and that's a step that is, you know, uh. Oh there's, no reason to think that we're not going to take it at some point, but it's an additional complexity to get inside the head safely and help people or improve function. Even if you know a lot about what you know, those areas of the brain do, but we don't You know we don't know, we haven't cracked the neural code.

Well, we don't know, we don't know how consciousness is arising in the brain. We wouldn't know how to build a a computer. That does what we do to say nothing of experience the world as we experience it yet and And we may be going down paths where we will build it. More by happenstance where's the like we will be. We can when we have might build it and not quite know how it's doing what it's doing it, but it seeming to do you know more or less what we do. I would be doing very differently, MS, so that their two pazz release two distinct paths in our Fishel intelligence and one path could take, could could try to emulate what the brain is doing and that obviously requires a real, detailed understanding of what the brain is doing. Another path would be to just ignore the brain right so like

so there's no reason why artificially intelligent machines, even me, jeans that are superhuman in their capacities- need to do anything that is similar to what we do, Bio and with our brains. You know it, wouldn't you know neural chemical, certain cell, because it in that they're going to be organized differently and could be organized quite differently and obviously made of totally different stuff. So so whether you want to go down the path of emulating the brain on the basis of of Dt understanding of it or you just want to go down the path of maximizing intelligent, behavior in machines Some combination of the two there are not necessarily they are distinct and one doesn't entail really knowing much about the brain.

This early? So this really two different ways I can go about it. They could try to reproduce a brain. And people are we can make for doing that. Yeah I mean if they can make fake meat. Why can't they make fake brain tissue seems like they could I mean I know a woman got her bladder replaced with stem cells. Did you hear about that? They took stem cells and re created her own bladder in a shed bladder cancer. So they built her a new bladder in a laboratory and put her own. You matter back in her body that is, insanely fasting. Now, if they can figure out how to extract a little bit of brain tissue thing, the brain is famously the most complicated object in the universe Blatter is essentially a bag yeah, you know. So it's it's a big leap. It's a big leap, but it's not. You know, I think it's a leap we will take and we know whether we take whether the it may may be able

if we take in this step wise way where we build machines down a path that is not at all analogous to recreating brains which allow us to then understand the brain. You know totally in in the a in the Ray Kurzweil sense where we we can. You know upload ourselves if that makes any, and but it's a a I mean I I think I think. Information processing is at bottom. What intelligence is? I think that is not really for dispute at this point, that any any intelligence system is processing. Information in our brains are doing that and

any machine that is going to exhibit the kind of general intelligence that we exhibit and surpass us will be doing by tenth of its hardware and software. Something deeply analogous to what our brains are doing, but again, a minute main, not it. We may not get there based on directly emulating what our brains are doing and we we may get there before. We actually understand understand our brains and where would it would allow us to emulate It's it's always very interesting to me how it seems to be there's always pushes and pulls in in life, and when I have things that are a horrific's factory. Farming and people are exposed to it. Then there's this rebound and and where people were trying to find a solution, and I was wonder, like it will then

be the first artificial life that we create like zombie cows like some. Maybe we figured out that leave meat in the lab is not good because of as to actually be moving around for it to be good for you. Maybe maybe they'll come up with some idea to just look we're going to make hum bees were going to make livestock that essentially can just move forward and consume food. There's no thought whatsoever. These are but you can go right up to him. You wave your hand in front of them. They don't even move. Is it ok to kill those and then go from that to making artificial people ' 'cause. It seems to me that artificial people- it's gonna happen. I mean it, just a matter of how much time, if they're, making bladders and then they're going to start making all sorts of different issues with stem cells to try to replace body part organs and they're and they're going to work their way through an actual human body? Do you mean you mean a a brainless purse and that would be like spare parts for for you or for sure that's an option, but I think also an artificial human. I mean Matic one thousand years, but I think if

we stay alive, if human beings, rather, if human being continue to evolve technologically within, next one thousand years we're going to have artificial people. That are completely so I mean there are people so it is still the biological person hundred percent Sosa since at the is, is synthesized person right. So it's not we're not you're, not talking about the perfect robot you're talking about an actual person built up cell by cell yeah. You know, there's no, there's no reason why that's not possible in weather we would do it is. Is another question, but I had it had a sign. China well, yeah yeah! Well, presumably there and that's even in China, do an experience is already with human embryos. I don't know what they're doing to join. I believe they

I believe they got to go. They have that dog festival there. Every year I see people tweet about China's a big place, though can't run mall in there. But you know what is that gene splicing software Chris Presburger they're using crisper on human fetuses or human embryos right? So good luck, good luck, work also. Tries creating super athletes there. Any issues there but means when you're talking about changing the genome, and especially when you talk changing the germ line you know, then it gets passed on to future generations. That has big implications, but you know, I don't see why this goes to is like the the artificial meat conversation so to grow. Meat in a vat is ethically the same thing as at least

My view would be the same thing as producing a brainless cow right, so you have the whole cow that you could slaughter, but it has no brain so presumably there's at no experience in this animal, but it is the fully functioning animal rights. So, let's let's say you could produce that, and it would be it. You would produce healthy meat It's just a messier, presumably have to feed this thing right or I don't know how you get it to eat, but you'll be able to say feet. Intravenously all begins to look weirder and weirder, but there's no suffering there because there's no brain, I think we would- and I think we have decided to buy pass that vision and just go straight to the vat and build it up. Cell by cell and build up only we need, which is the meatball or the steak or so why have the fur and in the or things that you don't want and the mess and the kind of the uh

intensive aspects of producing whole animal. I think with like spare parts for humans, rather than create a clone of yourself. That has no brain that you just keep in a in a vat somewhere in your in your garage where you get spare kidneys. When you need them, we would just be able to print the kidneys and- and that is that, because that gets around alot of the weirdness right be weird to have a copy of yourself. It's just you know just spare parts, whereas it wouldn't be weird, or at least in my view, it wouldn't be where it would be fantastic to be able to go. Into a hospital when your kidneys are failing, and they just take a cell and print you, a new kidney yeah. I think that can be expected. That's going to. I mean, if it's possible, it seems like it's going to know what it is that the bladder example you gave is is what's happening there, it's amazing, but

I always want extrapolate things to some bizarre place a thousand years from now for some reason, because I've been you know I got talking to Dan Carlin's hardcore history. I really fucked my mind, shut up about how I think about the past in this way that I look like one thousand years ago in comparison to today and you know I try to see how much different will people be one thousand years from now, and probably way more different yeah. You know I mean the fascination that we have with ancient history. Is that we one of the things obviously is we want to know where we came from, but also we can kind of see the people today doing similar shit if they were allowed to like, if everything went, horribly wrong, people at their base level are kind of similar. Today, as they were one thousand years yeah, one of them might be running for president. We can talk about that and when I think about the future. One thousand years from now with the way technology is it

tolerating in the just the Capac City, that we have an ability to change things, to change the world, to change physical structures, to change bodies, to dig in to the ground and extract resources, were gay, better and better at changing things and manipulating things so extracting pie from the sun and extracting salt from water. There's like all this bizarre change technology, that's consistently and constantly going on with people that continues to get better. When I think about one thousand years from now, an artificial people in the light and this concept of being able to read each others minds being able to map out imagery and pass it back and forth from mind to mind in like a clear spreadsheet. Forum like what is that movie with Tom Cruise Movie Minority report. Thank you. That's the way it's on the way it's going to be.

Strange to be a person yeah, whether we will be people in in one thousand years. I think that you would So we have done something terrible and knocked ourselves back one thousand years. I think we will decide to change ourselves in that time in ways that will make us Hey we, you know they'll, be there may be many different species is like you know, tattoos. You know you, you have a bunch of had is. I have none. You could take that a lot further if you can just been begin really busy with everything you know, oh yeah, if you want to get nuts and bolts in your head and shit head or just just give yourself just fundamentally different genetic abilities right at me like if you could just go, you could become a different species. If you took it far enough, maybe that's what the aliens are they all look the same. I really figured it out like a little. You gotta look alike. Otherwise he can't appreciate each other one

guys weird looking one guy short one guys got a big nose, everybody so confusing too many people. I can hate everybody looking back in the same, so the government gets together with all the people that they're planning take a look when we have a problem with this good looking thing, bullshit told his back a lot of people that are stupid. To get ahead. We've got all like this. Blank, emotionless and big giant eyes. It's it. Maybe I'll just went in with it with a passion for molesting cattle, allegedly, I think that's people. People are blaming that on the aliens I had this guy in my podcast David Deutsch That means physicist at Oxford. Yes, I have why ever heard him, he wrote a book. He gave it at least one TED talk and he's written two very good books, the first came out about ten years ago, the fabric of reality and the more recent one is the beginning of infinity. And Extremely guy and very nice guy. And he he has this thesis, which he

He and I don't totally agree about the the implications going forward for a I, but the I'm he's convinced me that the of his basic thesis, which is fascinating, which is his his the role that knowledge plays in our universe or the potential role that it and his argument is that in any corner of the universe, anything that is compatible with the laws of physics can be done with the requisite knowledge. So that he has his argument about how deep knowledge goes and therefore, how valuable! It is in the end. So if I'm queuing off your your notion of building an artificial person cell, by cell atom by atom. If that there's reason, that's compatible with the laws of physics of we exist. Right exist right that we got built by the happenstance of of biology.

If we had what he calls you virtual instructor, you know the smallest machine that assemble any other machine atom by atom. We could. We could build anything atom by atom, right and So he has this vision of feel like you could literally go into a an area of deep space that is as close to a vacuum as possible, and it begins picking up, stray hydrogen atoms and fuse them together and generate heavier elements. Amiga literally, so you could start with nothing but hydrogen and with the requisite knowledge. Dick If you build your own little fusion reactor create heavier elements and based on those elements create. The smallest machine that can then assemble anything else Adam by Adam,

including more of itself right, and you could start this process. Of building anything from a person to this something far more advanced than a person to a plan. The beaters anything is made of atoms right and right is organize it, and, and- and so the the limiting factor in in that case is always the knowledge right. It's a it's a The limiting factor is either the laws of physics either. This can't be done because it's physically impossible or the knowledge is what you're, lacking and uh given that human beings are physically impossible there. Should be some knowledge path whereby You could assemble one atom by atom right, there's, no, there's no reason, why there's no deep physical reason why that wouldn't be the case, that the reason is it? We don't know how to do it, but presumably it would be possible for us to

to acquire that knowledge into so the horizon of knowledge is just extends who functionally without limit right, there's just there's we nowhere near the that's where we know everything, that's knowable, as as a witness by the fact that we don't yet know how to build a a human atom by atom. But when you imagine just that the changes that could could occur in our world, we with the frontiers of knowledge explored ten thousand year, is beyond where we are now. Maybe we be unrecognizable to ourselves, everything would be equivalent to magic. You know if we could see it, and most of human history is not like that in most of human history. If you dropped in any period of human history, it was, for all intents and

this is identical to the with the way. It was five hundred years before and five hundred years before that, it's only very recently where you would drop in and be surprised by the technology and by the culture and by the The deal, what is being done with language and the consequences of of cooperation? Among you know, apes like ourselves, and so I think that made this one place where someone a Kurzweil makes a lot of sense. This is this is clearly accelerating right of way and if we don't do something catastrophic to set us back acceleration is, is the implication is that the future is going to be far less recognizable than it has been in any other period of human history. The idea of creating a little machine that you could shoot out into the universe and build you a planet, yeah, yeah

the planet is planet is not the planets, obviously big, and the basis for our biosphere and everything we care about, but the planet is not what's complicated. It's the it's the life on the pits, and you know our our own brains being the ultimate example of of of that complexity, but presumably intelligent systems can become much more complex than that right. There's no reason to think that we are near the summit of possible intelligence, biological or otherwise and yeah. It's a what I want. I want to begin thinking about, build

things atom by atom. Then then it would be it then. The the future begins to look very weird because it's it's a and and an automated that process right where you have yeah. This is this is the promise of of nanotechnology, where you have something you'd, tiny machines that can and both build more of themselves and more of anything else that would be made of of tiny machines, assemble anything atom by atom or treat your own by id. Like a the machine that it is and deal with it atom by atom, I mean that's the the the possibilities of intervention in the human body or are than virtually limitless, sell. It say a yeah, I mean that's that's where we that's, where the the physical world begins to look just totally fungible once you know it when you're not talk

about surgery where you're cutting into someone's head and hoping in very coarse ways, hoping you're not taking out areas of brain that they need, but you're talking about actually repairing. I mean, if you're talking, if you if you can tinker with Adams in a way that you understand then you're talking about repairing anything, then in creating anything yeah like literally doctor Manhattan style, build these condos on Mars, I mean you could create art with it. You could do anything with it. It would just somehow or another have to be programmed with whatever pattern you were trying to create. You could You could essentially like make an earth somewhere else with all the biological diversity, water, even in budget life at all, could be done through some the machine will. It is mainly one day it is it bottom again, just the information is the knowledge of how to do it, it's organized and how to implement it. So it's like it's analogous to

what has happened in films now, where, like animation and film, has gotten good, suddenly right, where you can see like like they can animate shaving, hair and and and flowing water, and it looks pretty damn good and it looked terrible thirty years ago right and we just acclimated to it, looking terrible, but now it it you can. You can really try quickly. I you can build up scenes of nature where they're not at surely using any Nat Photography of Nature to build it up. It's just all a confection of of ones and zeros right. They just they just they just built in in software like the revenant, perfect sample, the giant bear the tax Lien Arctic cat right, see. I I don't have that was done, but I mean I I I I had heard that that was all just pure

yeah when there's a dude in a costume that acted it out with them. But essentially I was just all c g r yeah, yes, so that so that the fact that that it's beginning to look good- that's just I mean obviously that's just all surface that doesn't has no implication for the building. A rendering of a bear on film is not the same thing as building a bear, but the fact that we can move so far into building modeling. That kind of complexity visually. You know it just imagine what a you know a super intelligent mind could do with a thousand years to to work at it right and that's and that's we're on the cusp of and when I say because you know I don't mean five years, but let's say a century were on the cusp of

a producing the kind of technology that will allow for that and if we put it into perspective, photography, I don't believe was even invented until the early 1800s right was first, it sounds about. Is their photographs of Lincoln through our though yeah yeah, so that the early 1800s, when he was Lincoln, killed one thousand eight hundred and sixty five, two hundred and sixty five, so somewhere after that or some before that other the invented photography, eight thousand and twenty yeah. That's right so essentially give are take ten years two hundred years ago. That's really amazing, oh yeah, if you stop think about the revenant. From two hundred years ago, we couldn't figure out how to get sound. And in our movies until that one hundred years ago, that thought right there, just actually just freaked me out with two hundred year thought like how Little two hundred years is the Mongold days and now two hundred, so they didn't even have cameras, and now they do,

and now they have this insane ability to recreate things like game of thrones, wolves and dragons and she's right run. Dragon I'm, like yeah, looks like she's on a dragon. Doesn't look like olds king Kong movies, you ever try to watch those yeah. He was in there some pleasure that there are awesome there, Sir awesome to it to route to just get into for fun, but as far as like visual effects, what they can do now and the idea that it's all been done over two hundred years is just spectacular, not just capturing the image but then re creating an artificial version and projecting it, which is you know, one thousand times more difficult and there's but there's other feature here of the compounding power of knowledge and technology, where you certain gains that are truly incremental, where it's just everything. Hard one, everything is just one percent better than its predecessor,

But then there are other games that where it's just you have created inability that takes you. It seems like a kind of qua some leap beyond where you were and where you go from just fundamentally not being able to do anything that domain and then also the domain opens up totally so so like flight is an example right, so for the longest time. People couldn't fly It was obvious that you can't fly your you're heavier your and and you're. Not you don't have feathers and you're, not the no way to flap your arms fast enough we're never going to fly right and and then at a certain point flight as possible and opens this whole domain of innovation, but the difference between not being able to there's. No. Progress. You can make on the ground that it doesn't doesn't avail itself of the print.

Bulls of flight. As we now know them that's going to get you closer, you know you can jump a little bit higher, and this is not an so there's no matter what you do with your shoes, so they're fundamental gains that open up hold dna sequencing is, is a more recent example where understanding and having access to the genome, and that's you go from the only way to influence the th. Your descendants is to be in the whole area. It basically make a good choice and wife right or husband. Two you can just create a new species in a test tube. If you wanted to write and that's a that kind of

compounding power of of understanding the way things work, that you know that that's, I think we're at the beginning of a process that could very very strange, very, very quickly, and I you know, I think. Obviously, obviously, both in good and bad ways, but there's I don't think, there's any brake to pull on this train even knowledge and and intelligence are the most valuable things we have right. So we're going to we're going to grab more insofar as we possibly can as quickly as we can and the moments of us deciding not to know things and not to learn how to do things. I mean those are the are, are so few and far between as to be almost impossible to reference right and there are moments where people try to pull the brakes and say that

they hold the conference, and I say you know: should we be doing any of this, but then you know China does it or threatens to do it, and wind, finding some way to do it that you know that we consider ethical. So there are things like you know, germline tinkering that we, as far as I know, don't, do and have decided for good reason we're not doing, but is that going to stop people from from doing this? I I don't think, there's any way there more worried about actual real dick These is, then they are man made diseases when we went to. Cd cc's Disease Control, CDC Cdc in Galveston. I guess that's what it is This is the name of the organization, but it's a building with a house, some of the most horrendous viruses and diseases known to man like they had a tracks in there. The CDC has a a lot of that yeah

and they have these crazy walls like thick thick walls and vacuums in the ceilings and everyone's weren't suits, and they wanted us getting the suits, and I went fuck you there's no way, I'm going in that room. You did this for one of your shows. You ask for a tv show with Duncan Trussell questions. Everything showed because we were talking about weaponized diseases. The cdc was like forget all that, like the field diseases that are constantly morphing, we have to stay on top of like that's what we should be there actual real diseases like no one shown any ability to create this stuff, that's more fucked up than what we already have, but weaponized anthrax and things along those lines like these russian guys we talked to. They were talking about how they had vats of this stuff. They all kinds of crazy diseases that they had created just in case. We had gotten into some insane mutually assured destruction. You know

disease spreading thing like they were down. That they were like? Well, we have to be prepared in case the United States. Does that wo? But what Our concern is the center for Disease Control's guys. They were concerned with things like Ebola, things, more faint It's becoming airborne natural things, new strains of the flu that becoming possible, Merca, a terrifying one. It has a lot of people scared a lot of doctors scared near. Medication resistant staph infection that kills people- I mean it can absolutely If you don't jump on a quick and take the the most potent antibiotics we have and even then it takes a long time near yeah. Well it it's a am I actually just tweeted this recently. I think I said with some billionaire with some zero point. One percent are

develop some new antibiotics, because clearly the government in the market can't figure out how to do it and it really is falling through the cracks in the government market paradigm. Where, either the government will do it or the market will do it, but neither are doing it because the market can't build generate the. Rationale for developing antibiotics, because it's so costly and you take them you what you take. It with any luck, you take them once every ten years for ten days, and that's it- I mean that's not like by ghagra or anything. You know anti depressant or any drug that you're going to take regularly for the rest of your life, and so there's no real market incentive to do it, and or at least not enough of one to spend a billion dollars developing and ended ironic and the government apparently is not doing it and we're running out of antibiotics has been in the news a lot recently and we'll we're, but we're

Close to being in a world where it's as though we don't have antibiotics, but there were a super bug away from from being in world an freaking me out SAM Harris, I don't get freaked out, so it's super bugs or the big concern right now. Do you think about that in Jujitsu? Do that yeah I've, gotten staff my face I already had it and we were playing pool and he was limping. I think, what's going on your leg, man, because I got a spider bite. Let me say it: you got staff you gotta get a doctor. And he hasn't even done- Jiu Jitsu in years, and I think he got staff again and I think one of those things were once I guess everyone has it on their body and- when you get an infection that spreads and grows an apparently it can be a reoccuring thing. So people who get it particularly Merca, apparently they can get it again and it can get pretty bad

that one fighter who just died. I don't think related that, but he had these Kevin around randomly yeah had me that Matt was Mercer Right, a hundred percent yeah yeah he was in the hospital. Well was it was staff, I don't know if it was Marseille could and just staff that he ignored her for Long this time. It was one hundred percent staff and he died. I don't know what exactly was the cause of his death, but I can't think that helped any I mean he added it gotten so bad that it eaten through his body. If you were, if you were taught us about us, yeah for people online to listen, Google, Kevin, Randleman staff infection and these There are horrific photos that look like like something took a bite out of them like his uh, his armpit there's I mean I'm like a fist. Sized chunk of meat was missing. Yeah, it's real. Really scary stuff. So

a skin infection there, it is right there. You can see good, look deep in see his muscle tissue yeah. That is hardcore no exaggeration, like a baseball sized hole and he's got two well he's, got another one lower down on his back or it's just eating its way through his body, but that was years before he died right or some years yeah. I was years before he died, but who knows like how devastating that might have been? Like? That's a really really bad infection, and I think that once your body is that compromise to me. You're, like really close today, I mean he's a. He was a really tough, strong, healthy guy who's, a super athlete, so I'm assuming his body, probably fought it off pretty well. So it's probably one of the reasons why you let it go so long, probably didn't maybe didn't

understand like how dangerous it was or who knows. Maybe it just jumped on really quick. My dad's girlfriend just got it on her face and she was in the hospital for two weeks and they were afraid it was going to spread to her brain and it almost did and she's not one hundred percent out of the woods, yet, but she's not home, now exists general grants on her face and spreads into our cheek and then into it from our check. She's got a little red swelling and then she couldn't see and she had to go in the hospital you got. Staff won't allow more heavy and about right away. Yeah! That's it like. This is one area that this this way made it. That way I mean they're they're, the band things we do and obviously that's a there's a lot to be worried about their. You know the the stupid wars, the and the things that it's just obvious that that you know if we could

up creating needless pain for ourselves or needless conflict. That would lead to a much nicer life, but then are the good things we neglect to do. Based on the fact we just can't. We don't have a system where the in those are aligned to just make it easy or truly compelling to do them, and the idea that we are not producing the neck generation of antibiotics as quickly as possible is just unthinkable to me and yet and yet we does it simply we're just hamstrung by the fact that we have a political and economic system. That is where the this and there's no incentive right, the governor, the we don't want to raise taxes right. We don't it was so we're committed in the ways we spend money. The public money, Anne were so short sighted that we even

we suddenly saved money in one area. It's not like. We would immediately direct it to this lifesaving, necessary work right and the market cap get on top of this. So it's it really would it would be like you know something that you know the bill, Melinda Gates Foundation could do, and maybe maybe they're actually doing this- and I just don't know about it- they're doing a lot of medical work, obviously, but It we're talking about some billions of dollars to just get this get get it kind of a laser focus on this problem, but it's so an obvious problem. That's really the only thing! That's holding it back! That's! What's going on it's now. It research issue, it's system, a financial issue. Well, I'm sure that the research has to be done, because you know if it was if it was totally obvious how to build the next generation of antibiotics that would not be vulnerable to having the efficacy cancelled in three year.

By the interest, just the natural selection. Among the microbes, you know the he is, someone would do it very very cheaply, but a source. I am I'll admit that it, it's probably not easy to do, but it's got to be doable and it's super important to do. I mean we look at just what cesspools hospitals have become where people come at you, something like two hundred thousand people a year die in the US based on essentially Lee getting. And killed by the machinery of the hospital right there going to killed by their doctors and nurses, most of some of this is, is in a drug overdoses or or or competence in Dosan or given some of the wrong medication or whatever two hundred thousand people yeah two hundred year by a lot of it, is just doc.

Not washing their hands right or you end, but it is some of this isn't, as also in a super bugs where it's like. It's it's the burden on hand washing in hospital is higher and higher, because hospitals just just covered in in super germs, right So it's a it's like a haunted house. You know if you're trying to fix people and around the House or Budget Demaio trying to kill people you're trying to fix. I mean that if look on, obviously it's not, but if you were a person who was inclined to believe things like back in the day before they figured out microscopes me. What else is that other than a demon you gotta hospital? That's filled with super bug somewhere else? Are they there's nowhere, Susan, the hospitals in a and Jims and some in some of your man's or they get in probably from the hospital? But I mean is it? This is like a haunted house circle. Harter House is trying to kill the people that live in the house. It is well- and it's also just ironic- that you go to the hospital.

Save your life right. If you go when you are, by definition, you're most vulnerable and you are- I- and your and you're, laying your body opened to the intrusions of the place, because that means they have to get it. They have to get into your body to help you right, and yet that is the very mechanism where it went by you're, getting all this misery and death imposed on you, and it is as simple as hand washing though, in many of these cases right, it's just doctors and nurses, not washing their hands, is saying it's so insane to think that that is a gigantic issue that we have these bugs that try to get into your body and kill you. This one is don't know if you ever at the bad luck to be associated with a Nikku, a neonatal icu, but our first daughter, who's totally fine was born five weeks early, and had to be in the Nick you for a week and

people who are in the neck. You for you know months. You know they're better, for babies born at you know, twenty three weeks or so as just as totally heroin, but but also just this incredibly compassionate, just amazing places where you just doctors and nurses are total heroes, but that a space where you see the hand washing protocol just exactly as it needs to be. You know like people, they just have have understood. Finally, that you're going to I want to thank you and see your baby or be around anyone else's baby you and wash your hands in and it as complete away as as twenty first century science understand how to do that, and it's some. You know it. It is it's.

I was like in the in the decontamination zone of you, know, silkwood, where your you know or the nuclear reactor she got hosed down yeah, but it's yeah, it's in hand washing the fact. We can't even do that perfectly is pretty present now. Is it a fact that Marissa was created by medications or is that a belief or is? Is that been proven that it was created by a resistance to medications to get stronger, yeah well. No, yes, it's it's a fact that all of these bugs are evolving and just by dint of happenstance they are

producing changes in their genome, that leaves them no longer vulnerable to antibiotic x right, so, whether it's methicillin or any of its related antibiotics, and so that this is what antibiotic resistance is these these these bacteria, their genomes, mutate and, unfortunately, with bacteria? They also can swap genes laterally across bacterial species? So it's not like only their descendants in that line can inherent these genetic changes. They can. They can transfer genetic changes across bacteria, so it just optimizes.

Process and again this is all blind isn't like bacteria want to become drug resistant, but some percentage of them in a generation will tend to become Jordan in some generation will become drug resistant, and in that event, then, in the presence of the drug they will be selected. For you know, if you keep on boarding, people would would you know penicillin, you will be selecting for the bacteria that isn't sensitive to penicillin in those people and see. The over use of antibiotics in the over use of antibiotics in our food chain is is also part of this picture right. So it's in the fact that we are, I don't know what the percentage is, but it's it's more antibiotic use, certainly in cattle and pigs than in people and the same evolutionary prince

those are happening there too. So you so you know you don't know what what you we are doing to ourselves. I mean it can't be good to be using antibiotics everywhere in agriculture and then kind of waiting to see what happens. Well, we know for a fact that we get diseases mean swine flu. Avian flu like crazy, no viruses, yeah yeah a lot These are coming out of these facilities were their processing cattle. What are eggs another element to it, so it's just that most of infectious disease over the ages has been born of proximity to animals with and that's the result of agriculture. So the the the fact that you have people in bird markets in China, who is the the you know they're there

dealing with with chickens and ducks analysts, Lee in confinement and then you've got. You know: wild birds flying overhead dropping their droppings into that space, and you have you just and you have viruses the jump, species from from birds to pigs and back again- and you know some of the stuff- only stays in those animals and and doesn't become active in people. But again it's just it's just like this you know this is evolution is just this analyst lottery wheel where you just got change and change and change, Appan change and something makes the jump in this case between species an thrives or not, based on the opportunities to thrive. So you have something that becomes

airborne right. You have a you, have a a I'm a virus. That is, you know absolutely deadly in people, but isn't airborne and is difficult to contract right then it's a fairly well behaved. It could be scary, but it's not going to become a global pandemic, but then suddenly you could get a mutation on that virus or that bacteria that allows it to be. You know, aspirated in a in a we are becoming airborne a cough and inhaled and big and spread that way. Well, then, you have this this, you know the possibility of a pandemic, and also the time course of an illness is, is irrelevant to you hope you have something which kills you very quickly and whore play. Well then, that's that's the kind of thing that is going to be harder to spread because p become suddenly so sick. They don't they're not getting on airplanes, they're, not going to conferences,

they're, not starting new relationships there there in that Diane right so, but if you had something that had a time course that you felt great for a month but your yet your infectious aren't and then kills. You will then n it spread is only limited by the the damage you can do in that month of Galavant in around right. You know, so it's a I'm and again these mutations of this happening spontaneously. So it's it's it's a! It really is a it's a matter of good and bad luck and they all have one function. What kill things They did our they overcome the overcome bodies with their life form they spread their. They have met for other functions may obviously this is all blind and there's no intention or purpose behind it, but there are viruses.

And other infectious diseases that had that produce penicillin, funk notable produce functions which which are bit behavior early relevant minutes, so that there's a spread forgotten is it. The talks applies Mosis. It makes mice, less fearful in the presence of cats yeah, it says like say their behavioral changes right, makes my track to do urine right, correct right, around cat urine your songs into their demise. So it's spreads to cats here and there it's easy is that is that either very some factions diseases that change human behavior. You know that the depression is really the result of infectious illness that were not. You know, aware of or.

Yeah, MR eight there's a lot that could be going wrong with us that we haven't attributed to viruses and bacteria, which in fact are it is at bottom a matter of of fire fires back actually Alzheimer's is. There was recently a report that suggested that outsiders is the result of a brain's immune response to infection infectious illness. I don't, I think it was bacterial. This is just for in the last week or so that there is the the plaques associate with Alzheimer's. That you see throughout the brain might in fact be the the remnants of an immune response to some something have

invaded awesome. The blood brain barrier. Soviets of Alzheimer's is the result of infectious disease in that that is in a sense, swiss score that as a as a a major problem that would be nice to solve with the rights and about. Could you imagine I mean there would have been fascinated that existed during Reagan's time and they just clean him up. 'cause remember when like when, when someone publicly starts to go like that, and it's I got like Ronald Reagan, who is an actor and present then you see him starting to lose his grip on his memory. You and you hear all the reports about it that it's particularly disturbing because it's exhibited. It means that the head guy. You know to think that that was just a disease, that's screw. Yeah yeah. I don't remember when that became at all off.

Yes, a member of route. I I know people are trying to do a kind of a retrospective analysis of it, but I I don't remember when anyone started to talk about the possibility that he was not all there and a. I don't remember it happening actually during his press, Consider about you know where I was. You were both young at that point, so I do remember comedians doing jokes about it. Yeah like one of my main points of reference, is there we'll they did have this weird sort of out of it grandpa type character that they would do towards his second run. You know. Right, I don't know if that was years before they were referencing like one was well going bad for yeah neurologists neurologist can spot neurological illness really. Well, I mean they're walking around see

neurological illness all over the place, I'm sure they're in and they were numerologist who were talking about him long before anyone else was in those terms. Well, there was this old joke that Jimmy tingle to Jimmy Tingle is hilarious. Political comedian from Boston. Had this joke about Ronald Ray. When's trial, where he couldn't remember. If we sold arms to IRAN, it was mister president. Next time you sell arms to IRAN, get down, make a note put on the refrigerator, but it was just refrigerator that that was his. That was his his use when he was in trial, and everybody thought that this is bullshit. This is the fancy, doesn't remember and then you're coming out that again, the conspiracy theory was, he was always fine. He was like. Was that guys, name Vincent the Chin Gigante would walk around a bathroom, pretend to crazy remember that kind of mob guy. No there's a fail,

this mob guy who was running the mob of pretending to be a crazy old man, so he would walk around with people. I forget how they busted him, but he had it nailed he'd, walk around a bathrobe and talked to himself and we put on an act like go out on the street and actually a crazy person, and then he would go on walks with like these capos and tell him, kill this fucking guy and get me one million dollars and all that kind of crazy shit, but all the while he ended world wire somehow or another they caught him. I don't remember exactly how they caught him, but everyone knew like we kind of knew he was doing that, and so some people were thinking. That's what Reagan was doing. It was again sorry. I don't remember what I did. What I ran a matter of fact. I don't remember shit. Ok, I think I got a disease. I can't remember anything and just started pretending and just was at both could be true. I mean he could have definitely clearly did have Alzheimer's in the end, but he could have also been lying in it, but it was a big inspiraci. That would be a great move, like how good of an actor was Ronald Reagan, he was such a good actor. The latter days of his years. You avoided interviews by pretending to have Alzheimer's right here,

That was the only way out, so we just him and Nancy, they prepped airlines, and when, when you know you go out there public. You just started acting like you couldn't remember anything Alzheimer. Unfortunately, is going to be a bigger and bigger story. It's really the baby boomer moment is coming, and it's just going to. This is something we need a full court press on to yeah. If you can find that that's actually a disease, and you can cure that disease, that infectious disease and Infectious Disease well, that if you ever seen the sapolsky stuff on the toxoplasma, Roberts yeah yeah. I know him down for right, he's the guy. That's like one of them, four four front researchers and when the guys like really Virk vocal battery yeah. They were also talking about direct proportion at direct relationship between motorcycle crashes and people. Testing positive for toxoplasmosis, and they felt they felt that

might have either hindered reaction time or loosened inhibitions the same sort of triggers these mice to go near cats, yeah yeah yeah, that's what I was referencing yeah, so So there's I think it's a lot. It's speculation, but there's a lot of strong cord is a strong correlation, apparently to motorcycle crashes, and that is why I guess one of his. I told him that when he was younger and he died, read it while they were dealing with some guy would came into the ER victim a motorcycle crash, but it kinda makes sense. Yeah, well, you know the underlying biology of risk avoidance and and not risk seeking is that's fairly well. Conserved in, mammals. It's not like, there's a reason why we do most of our research in things like mice, I mean it it's I totally analogous brain, but it's

similar enough to us that doing research on dopamine receptors in mice is allows us to extrapolate to humans and yeah. So it's a it's not it be a surprise that It's it's having an effect on people. Was it Steve. Remember. I was supposed to bring this up to you before When you were talking about plants in plants having some sort of consciousness was it Steve? Pink or see, if you could find this, who gave a speech, he talked about how some plants, you can actually use sedatives on them and that's some of them, actually produced certain no chemicals like dopamine. If that makes any sense that Steve and pink are now, it didn't make any sense right. Well, it was surprise me if pinker, anything about this but but I haven't, heard anything about it. I think it was a spy, Each was given about something, but I think it's controversial. That's one of the reasons why I wanted to bring it up to you, because I

never heard that before that a plant could produce is either dope. More serotonin that somehow another sedatives would be would be affective on a plant. I tell didn't make any sense. I don't know it effective means, I don't know either that's why I waited for you. The plant is pretty well sedated as far as I'm concerned. I remember as soon as I saw this I'm like must get this to SAM Harris, please decipher, but I actually everything I almost everything I remember about that. I learned about plant biology, I've forgotten, so I don't know how, but I'm pretty sure that they can't find it does not have a brain stuff with Steven Pinker in plants and consciousness, but nothing with sedatives, specifically up with that. So maybe it was too. Maybe I can what's combine two different articles. Maybe

the pink one. I know know what is pinker say about plants and consciousness, while he just talking about the surprising amount of calculations that was one of the. We have to read the entire piece, but I think it was there. It is highlighting what we know so far reach the limits of a human bladder. How dare you this early, healthy man, coffee and water? What have you found on Jamie really a few nothing specific about it, but I did have something earlier that was kinda, interesting I'll show two year when you're talking about a I I put up some a minority report now pulled

me to this article, which Microsoft has an app that can it's actually developed by Hitachi, it's called predictive Cryman that analytics they can predict crimes up to ninety one percent accuracy and then there's also already being enacted in Maryland and Pennsylvania. As of two thousand and thirteen, they have crime prediction software that can find out if an inmate, that's going to be released, is going to predict or commit another crime. And so they're using that to follow them and there's some civil rights people that are saying like you can't do that. Obviously, that's not hold on scroll down just a little bit. What is it Professor Burke?

says his algorithm could be used to help set bail amounts and also decide sentence is in the future, and then I got down to this part in Chicago they're doing something and they have it. It's called a heat list in Chicago. They have forwarded residents that are listed as potential victims and subjects with the greatest propensity of violence and they go and knock on their door and tell them that they're being watched and I'd like I've clicked on this thing and it's an actual like Chicago directive from Thepolice dot org, it's a pilot program about going until people that are being watched for someone might be after you or some shit like that. Hides wow, really crazy. I didn't interrupt you guys to tell you about this, but some notification under the violence reduction Initiative in partnership with the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, community team, who will serve as Outro partners from the social service and community partners show him this. This is crazy. While, while we were doing this Microsoft,

Has this these programs scroll up to the top chain. They were revealed an application. They think they can predict crimes in the future and decide if inmates get parole a user right. What's the data, but data from Twitter, closed circuit, camera feeds public wifi signals, there's like an la there's, all sorts of microphones, all over the place. Listening for gun shots and what not for this new light poles. I told you about that. Adding four g connectivity to the city beyond that obviously can be added to this. Probably if they needed it, I'm sure yeah. It doesn't surprise me at all. Am I the I think that is a all? That's coming you just look at just consumer behavior I mean just just look at how much someone can understand about you, based on your zip code and your last three Netflix movies. You watch to the end and it just a few other data points right.

We basically, no we can protect here was was some horrendous accuracy? What you're going to like a gay? Given you know the menu of options I mean we can advertise to you with him with a man's precision affair. Facebook, obviously, is is at the forefront of this, but when you talk about, when you add everything else, that's coming in the more more intrusive technology this or we've been talking about it's in our no that surprising right, nothing, surprising anymore! It's if you would read that thirty years ago, it would look like an article in the onion here right he really quiet they're going to have. This is judge dread this crazy, well that it'll, here's the onion version, which they did just happen right now. I think this is Microsoft, where they put out a what they were calling an ai bot on twitter there, an ai

right, what are account that just became a Hitler, loving sex pot because it was being tuned up by its interaction with people troll in it on Twitter. Did you see the guy who got arrested for falling asleep inside is Tesla when it was on auto drive? No, no! No, it got busted. I don't know if you got arrested, he got busted, though they have cameras of camera photos of him rolling through an intersection completely unconscious on his way to work. Look at this guy like this. The cars driving him and he's asleep while it's on autopilot this is in San Jose. This is going to be a great moment to see, and I'm sure this is coming where one self driving cars become just obviously the only truly safe alternative. Then you'll be arrested, to the opposite violation: you'll be you'll, be arrested. If your hands are on the wheel, if you were driving a car that is, there's a piloted

as opposed to a robot driven- and that's that say, I'm may we got thirty thousand people a year are dying every year. Yes, on April DR so the moment we crack that which were very close to doing it's just going to see. I mean you've got your old muscle cars or what We are into it's going to be like that's going to be the equivalent of like celebratory Fire fire reserve, the right to like at like at your wedding. You know, shoot shoot your Ar15 at the air and not care where the bullet lands I'm going to get a license to operate them you're, going to to move out of the big somewhere, where you can take them to the hills, unload them out of the back of a truck right drive for very short distance. That's right monitor how governor on the single five miles an hour yeah. Yeah, I mean, if you look at in terms of safety, for sure

and then it seems to be the thing. That's the recurring theme right. You give up your privacy for safety. You give up your. Your ability to drive a car wherever you want. Whenever you want. However, you want it give that up to give that up for safety and People are really reluctant to give up fun shit like lying and having their car fast. Like those two things, people have a hard time with you like actually getting in. Into their mind, seeing their actual mind and being able to do that, so we can know without a doubt whether not someone's guilty or innocent, but my question to you is: if you could get inside someone's It was like that really super suggest guy. They were talking about earlier that just confessed all the horrific, demonic possession stuff and babies. What if it's like? Getting to that guy's mind what, if you can't tell well that

the case that worries me- and this is perhaps in in segway to politics, but the I mean we're in people's minds. Well, you get you get someone talking long enough you know their minds only conceal what there about only so Well, maybe you can 'cause you're a super smart, wizard type notice, but Jamie. I don't know bout, is a mind reader, but the question is: what will people care? You know it's like like? If you, if you have, we don't even need a lie: detector to have someone who is openly line right, right, who's who just gets caught in lies again and again, you could see it too. You fail it read it, but people don't seem to care right in the in the it in the political process and I'm thinking in this case of Trump, where you have someone who, if it it is in some cases line or just change

in his mind in such a incoherent way that it's the functional equivalent of line is someone who becomes totally and predictable, that he has a stance that is aid on Tuesday and it's be on Wednesday, and when the discrepancy is pointed out, he tells you fuck yourself right. So it's just there's just no. There is no accountability to his his own state of consciousness that right that he's going to be held to and the people who love him don't seem to care they actually in is far as I can tell. I don't know man so many people personally, but it is from based on you, know social media and seen the few articles where someone has explain why they love Trump people view this as a kind of this sort of this dishonesty. What is on, in my view, both dishonest. T and a kind of kind of theatrical hucksterism, a satisfied person who's, who

pretending to be many things that he probably isn't. They see it as a new kind of authenticity. Right like this he's just letting it rip. He doesn't care what what is true. He doesn't care what your expectations for coherence or he's just going to tell you to fuck yourself every which way, and this the new way of being honest right. The new form of integrity, It's amazing to watch mister, It's getting. It's been, I'm someone who, actually, I remember on my own podcast. I I think was talking to Paul but um this. This pails psychologist, whose whose great and we had taught work- we got into politics, and this is at least a year ago. But at that point I said, there's no way we're gonna be talking about Trump in here. Miss is going to completely flame out, and I was this is a.

I don't tend to make predictions, but this was a clear moment that I remember, of making a prediction, which is now obviously false, but I just couldn't imagine that this was this. What people are going to find this cut compelling enough to for the for him to be on the on the cusp of getting elected its. It is terrifying, have you have? You talked this issue to death on your podcast, or I guess we kind of have. This is how everybody feels everybody feels like you're supposed to be like with their purse, whether it's Bernie or whether it's for Hillary or whether you're a trump supporter whatever it is like you have to be all but like. If you look the the choices that were given. The none of these could really be described as ideal. Don't like him. Free Clinton, you could want a woman in the White House and you want to You want to show everyone that a woman can do that job just as well as a man. She's got the most experienced and she certainly has the most experience dealing with foreign governments, and she certainly has the most experience in politics

can make it easier, but she's also involved in two criminal invested. Vision. She had a observer in our bathroom. This is all squirrelly stuff going on she's Taraba, Lynn, anyways. She was anti gay marriage until like two. And then wouldn't admit the change of mind either yeah, it's she's a politician, probably a brilliant woman, but she's also set in her ways and a politician. A politician to the end and part of being a politician is being a fucking huckster. You gotta be able to get the people to see your side and the way you do that is to talk like this This you can talk like a normal person needs a speech coach, so they do he's terrible to Trump's, not even good at it, any kicks our when nobody knows that her voice or she has a a kind of to to use the the sexist trope she has a shrill when you get her in front of a mic and there's a crowd, and she thinks she's talking over

crowd which she doesn't have to do. 'cause she's in front of a mic, the sound you get is just it's is yelling when she does need to yell at someone. Someone has to teach her how to dial it back. What just- is called Mansplaining. I'm explaining I'm explaining to the men in her crew talk some sense into her, but she she is she's a she's, a bad candidate right. I have no doubt that she's very smart and she's well informed and she's qualified and she is absolutely who I will vote for a given the choices. But you know I totally understand people reservations with her she's a liar she's an opportunist. She is just almost, Preternatural e inauthentic, I mean she's, just like she will just focus group every third sentence, and you feel that from her right and

and this is all true and yet I I also believe that people say I've never met her, but the people who know her and met her say that you Bob behind closed doors in a one on one she's, incredibly, impressive and and great, but it doesn't translate into her candidacy. She said she thinks she has to do. Old school. You know, I mean the way she's doing it, but the thing is she's. When you look at the what's what worries me is. I went on Facebook the other day and I have said a little about this. But I've made enough noise is of the sort that I just made that people understand that the time for Clinton. Despite all my reservations about her. And when I got on my own facebook page, what you have to assume is filtered by the people who are following me on Facebook and and already like me, and sometimes just like a thousand comments,

fewer pain. I mean no one loves Hillary. No one. No one said, thank God, someone, someone smart. As for Hillary, it was all just Bernie people and trump people flaming me for for for the the most tepid possible endorsement of Clinton. All I said was listen. I understand Clintons liar and she's and she's an opportunist and she's. I completely get your reservations about her, but at least she's a grown up right and she's going to be the candidate. It's not going to be sanders for those. So the moment now is the moment to put your political idealism. Mind you if you're Sanders person and recognize that there is a vast difference between Clinton and Trump. No, no she's not going to change the system, but he's also not going to run civilization off a cliff and I forget how I set it on Facebook, but it was just the most. It was just a really really was a lesser of two evils argument and it just it '

SAM. It's amazing to see how energized and passionate people are in defense of Trump and Sanders, and there's almost none of that for Clinton is like a people, are just sheepishly saying that that did just divulging that they will vote for Clinton but they are maybe somewhere that haven't notice, someone absolutely loves Clinton, but it's just it's. She does not have her defenders, the wave guys. Don't have you seen the man enough to vote for her campaign? No, no! It's with like hipster dudes with tattoos and beards that are going to vote for Hillary. No, I hope it's fake 'cause, it's so brilliant. I hope it's not real. Is it fake? Thank God is it thank God. It's so good, though 'cause. It's not that fake. It's pretty good, like you ' almost see so wait a minute I mean this is not bad for her right. This is no! No! No, it's not bad for it just

money that someone would like make a joke political ad, but you have to be man enough to vote for Hillary and, like there's guys out that would buy that they would they would amount of bro they do it. It's a scary time, because Doesn't seem like anybody that you would want to be. President wants to be president and so we're left with alright. Would you pick it's like, as if we're going to play the super bowl with three the shittiest teams. We could find we're just going to go. Get some drunk high school kids going to get some inmates with club feet which is going to throw whoever it we're going to have the worst game ever, and this is what this game is- is not a good game. This is the game where you've got like John F Kennedy versus Lyndon Johnson, or it's not it's not like like powerful characters it trump. I guess is a really powerful character, but in more ways like a showman character,

everywhere is like he's putting on a great show and he's going to win, probably because he's put on such a great show and people like a great show. I do you think, I'm now of among the people who think something new or witness we're witnessing something new with Trump. It's not just the same old thing where the process. This is so onerous that it's selecting for the kind of narcissist or thick skin person who is willing to submit to the prom says, and then there are many most of the good people just aren't going to put up with this I mean yes, there that too, but there's there's something there's there. It's a moment among uh. The electret where is like So it's an anti static, there's an ant is enough of an anti establishment mood and and vote now. Is

happening with with sanders to where people just want to jam a stick in the wheel of the system just to see what happens so it's like this is the main gripe against Hillary really. Is that she's politics as usual, she's not going to change the system people want to change the system, but they're not really thinking about the implications of radically changing the system and in the case of trump here is someone who is who is advertising his lack of qualifications for the office in every way that he can he like that? There's there's! No I'm not even, I'm bothered by his racism or his misogyny or his demo, Hungary, or is bowling. I all of that I'm willing to to guess is an act right. That he's he's decide, that's somehow pandering to his base and he's actually. In

truth, he doesn't have a racist bone in his body. Say I'm willing to it. It tubal Eve that a man I don't know why I would think that's possible, but it's it it's it's a you know. I have a hunch that he's far more liberal than he seems a and it's just pandering, but the thing that that. Can't be true is there's no way, he's actually brilliant and well informed about all the issues and is saying the things he's saying he's not pretending to be as uninformed and is in coherent and as irresponsible as he's same in 'cause, you wouldn't withhold information to make you work better leader. Well, it's just yeah. It's just it's just the vacuousness of his speeches. Like he's hill ' then he'll say the same thing three times in a row and it was meaningless. The first time right, he'll say it's going to be a may.

It's going to be. Very, very amazing. Trust me. It's going to be so amazing, and he he does this with everything. If you look at the transcripts of his speeches and the fact that he can He has never made so far as I've seen is never once strung together a string of sentence is that was even in TR. Right, but he like he's he's. Never he just there Never a moment where I, where I say oh, this guy is Sma order and better informed than I realized at that moment never comes. I keep expecting to see that happen and it's a little bit like this image of imagine even earn right where you and you just need to keep pulling things out of it and all you pull out of it as junk right, though you pulled me or chicken bones and broken marbles and dumb and and it's it's still pain,

people that you that if you root around in that earned long enough you're going to find the hope diamond I mean in each round either you pull something out but that really has no logical implication for the next thing you might pull out of it. They earn. But mines aren't like that. When I see what this guy says, he does not say anything that a well informed, intelligent person would say- and it's just ideas are- are connected right, so you can't I'm he just. He can't thank this stuff. You can't say you can't fake being this this uninformed and you can't fake being really well informed and he's just and we just let me look at one policy that he wants the in the coming up of illegal aliens right around up eleven million illegal aliens. Now this gets stated as yeah we're going to run around them up and send them back to Mexico, and- it worries me is. No one seems to care about that. If you just look at the implications of doing this, it is

this one policy claim alone- is so impractical and unethical. Just what what are we talking about here? Talking, like your gardner, your housekeeper, the person who works at the car wash the person who picks the vegetables that you buy in the market is going to get a knock on the door in the middle of the night by the gestapo and get sent back to the vast majority of these people are are: are a law abiding people just working at jobs that that Americans by large, don't want to do, and many of them have kids who are american citizens right? Some is at the someone's got kids under the age of ten who are american citizens and what you're going to send that person back to Mexico and you're going to do this by the hundreds of thousands and millions? It's just that one point alone phone it held in isolation from all of the uh he said. The crazy things like climate change is a hoax is a hoax concocted by the Chinese to destroyer.

In factoring base, and you know the fact that he Putin and everything else he said right. This one policy claim alone should be enough to disqualify a person's Canada. It's so crazy. With the moment you you look at it and yet no one seems to care. In fact, he is just it's just more energizing to the people who already like him. I know Already said that he wanted to build a wall, but I didn't know that somebody wanted to get rid of the illegal millions around him up and around him up and do want with them that send them back to their call. That is so crazy that such a crazy idea- and it's so brutal the idea that it mean it's like a it's a sub human thing, the only reason why people would come to America is because they felt they felt like it would make their life better. Some people take a big risk. It's not it's not a an easy way to do it. If you're poor, you don't have any qualifications for any unusual job. I mean you're trying to get across to Mexico, but everybody who does it does because they want to improve their life. You know and the idea that one group

people shouldn't be able to do it in one group should just 'cause. They were born on the right side of some. Strange line. That is only a couple one hundred years old, but uh, but I actually now go further in meeting him, in the middle, where is it so it? So? I think we should be able to defend our borders right. So it is. I don't have a go. The argument for having a porous, order that we can't figure out how to defend, and we don't know who's coming into the country right so I think, building the wall is almost certainly a stew good idea among his many stupid ideas, but I think it would be great know who's coming in the country and have a a purely legal process by which that happen, I mean. Ultimately, that's got to be the goal right right and we are we're in perfectly. Do that, and so I don't have an argument for open borders or porous borders. But if the question, what do you do with eleven or twelve million people who are already here

doing jobs. We want them to do that. Help our society and the vast majority of them are law, abiding people who, as you say, or just trying to have better lives the idea that you're going to break up families and send people back with the millions and the idea that you're going to vote your law enforcement resources to doing this when of real terrorism and real crime this to to deal with, is just pure insanity right and not and and it also totally unethical, and yet he doesn't get any points docked for this aspiration of. It is just it's one of the things around which people are around, but the climate change thing is also insane and dangerous. So here's a birther right, yeah right. He was one of the original birther's. He was saying that Obama's birth certificate was bullshit. He was born in K. Yeah right was anyone of those guys, oh yeah, he was he was

so funding that for awhile yeah would love have begun in the office and just said, listen folks, I am nothing like this person. I pretended to be to win the I didn't see. I just wanted to show you that you have been manipulated and get it together and Peter punk to a helluva, some gonna hire some people who actually know how to run things and we'll see. That's I the the the smart people who are voting for him. Think- and this is, I think, an Actua crazy position, but they think that he is just pandering. To the idiots who he needs to pander to to get into office. So he's he's not disavowing the whites of premises, votes. You know with the alacrity that you would, if you were a decent human being, and you found out that David Dukes or supported you, because he needs to he just needs those votes, and he knows that most of the people in his base are going to Karen.

Just going to move on in the in the cycle and he's doing on all these issues where he looked were smart people see that he looks like buffoon and- and they are treating him as a the people who don't like him, are treating him as a com figure, who he can't really believe that stuff he's not really he's too surface created to really believe that stuff, so he's just pandering and one is people aren't seeing if that's true, just how unethical and weird that is right here has no compunction about lying and demonizing people like, let's say let's say he thinks that That Clinton really isn't guilty with bill. Clinton, isn't really guilty of a of a rape right now he's calling him a rapist right now. At the time I am, he was saying he wasn't a rapist and he's just being defamed in this is outrageous. He was that he was taking the side of a friend who you know he invited to his his wedding. But now he's he's going a rapist right, a sexual predator, whose new

harmed women's rights more than anyone so which is true right. So there's there's no version of the truth here that makes Trump look at all acceptable. As a person is like either he knew he was a rapist and was defending him because he was just closing up to power at that point. Right didn't care that he's a rapist or now he he knows if he still is still the guy who thinks he wasn't a rapist. But now he just for purely opportunistic reasons, he's what he's? What he's willing to call a guy rapist who he knows, isn't they're both for right- and it's not like this new evidence- has come forward in the intervening years- that that would have changed his mind about what happened in Clinton's. Presidency so he's. But I think people think that he's gotta be much more sophisticated. Then he is and that if he got into office he would just be

totally sober and presidential person. This is no reason to believe that if he thinks climate change is a hoax and that we should pull out the Paris accords and we should ramp up coal production and going to bring back the coal jobs, and this is what he's saying right. There's no reason to think he doesn't believe this at this point. That's just it is a disastrous thing for ape president to think the only being versions of this that I've been hearing from people that I respect are they the idea that he is like political version of the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs, he's, going to come down and smash it, and it's going to be so chaotic that they're going to be forced to reform the system and people going to respond in turn like the way people were running against factory farming and more people are going vegan like that kind of a thing they're going to see it and they can respond in turn, yeah. The such a so so he's going

toss. The applecart up in the air is just going to fuck this whole goofy system up and then we'll be able rebuild after Trump has dismantled all the all the different special in these groups and lobbyists and all the people that we really would like to get out of the system. We really don't like the fact that there's such insane amounts of influence that big corporations and obvious have had on the way laws get passed. The It might be the way to do it. You have some wine, everyone's fired, you're fired, you're, fired jets and it's like a character like he's coming in his hair is plastic, is all fired up a billionaire and made all his own money sort of dad game some money, but he turns into a lot of money. Maybe he doesn't need anybody in the truth is probably lying about. The amount of money has to is is he's but he's a baller for sure, though, right at the very least, it's gotta be worth some cash yeah

may they could be a big difference between what his claim and when what yeah actor. But he's he's a minute. There are many pieces. Herman people assume that, because he's a successful businessman, he must understand the economy right which rest no necessary connection there right, there's a lot of rich people who are totally confused about, economics and most economists don't have a lot of money. So it's not it's not no real connection there, but the the. I mean so what you're describing is a I'm just random and like I can just others, let's just let's just smash the window yeah and then see what happens right. What I'm gonna, had fire to this place and and see what happens and that's it almost any process.

By which you would change the system, is more intelligent than that you know and yeah, and it's also not value and how much harm one bad president could do right like there's. No, I think you Even I haven't tested this, but I'm imagining that even Trump supporters would answer this question the way I would hope, which is, if, if I had a crystal ball To tell you, we can't tell you who's going to be president, but it tells you how it works out for the next president. So if I look in this football- and it says the next President United States is a disaster right. Just like the word president, we've ever had you just think of just just fell failures of governance end and the toxic influence of narcissism and hubris that comes along just like once, every one thousand years right, just just design

stir, I think you know, even if you're a Trump supporter which candidate that what this cycle I only Trump is, is a likely to screw things up that badly. It's not a Clinton is going to is going to be almost perfectly predictable. She going to be a politician, she's going to she's going to be basically centrist on a lot of foreign policy and domestic policy, you know she's going to be liberal on social issues. She is not going to to try to dismantle NATO and it it to get into a war with North Korea, or you know, be get into an alliance with Putin or image. This is she's, not gonna. Do something insane and lines with Putin yeah he he, he said basically only favorable things about food, the homeless ones, yeah good, tight

so we should get get hopefully will see pictures with both of them on horseback shirtless and are the spread them t shirt on. I hope we keep your shirt on. I don't see him as being the short list. I yeah when, when you just look at the landscape, between Bernie and Hillary and him- and you know to me looks like the last gasps of a dying system, so screeners at in our government system. But it is a lot of the what people are saying that hey you things like that, but they're not hearing in just how nihilistic that is, if true right, like. Like we there's so much stuff, we have to get right right and there's so much and the only tool to get it right is is having your your mind actually understand.

What's going on in the world and how to manipulate the world in the direction you want to go. We have to understand like what weather, not climate, Change is true. Your beliefs about it have to be representative of that right so like let's say you know, let's say it's, let's say I'm mistaken, there's you know there is no human caused change is not a problem and every moment spent thing in about it. Worrying about it. The correct name for it is just a waste of time is just throwing out. You know with the wealth of the world right. That would be a terrible. Thing right, so it really matters who's right about that, and the fact that we have a president or a candidate who is coming in saying this is all bullshit You know, in defiance of all of the science is, and it's it's true, but it's on and on every other, a bit of a problem. He doesn't know anything about. You know I

current EU you, he does know the difference between Suni and Shia Islam or which countries are Suni Prodam. Only in Witcher Shia prominently, and I am sure he's going to do. I know when he's going to cram for this final exam, I'm sure before one of those debates he's going to get into some of them sit down with him and give him some bullet points. He's got to have his head, but His head is just not in this game is never been in this game. It's obvious from everything he says and that's what that is something you can't say about Clinton right for all of her flaws as a person. I don't care how much you hate her as a person she under what's going on in the world and that's that, Difference is so enormous, forget about all the other character flaws of this guy. Who is just obviously going to I mean, he's but are we attach too much to this idea of one person being the figurehead? If I figure if someone has to eat someone with a decider. If we all woke up today, if everybody woke up, and there was just no government, it was nothing,

well just look what happened? I don't know, but we to figure out how to run this thing well, we had no, no previous understanding of government. Would you think anybody would say we need one due to just run this whole giant continent filled with three hundred million people most, like I think if we woke up and we had technology like we have today, we have the ability to Munich, eight like we have today with social media and whatever we probably say, we need to like figure this out amongst each other and fight and the people that are the most qualified for each one. These positions and start running our government. That way, that's what we're attempting to do, but it's just an totally agree with you that it is astonishing that out of a nation of three hundred million people, these are the choices you would think you would think it was starting from your basic your zero set point of just you know now we're going to reboot civilization. You would think that if you have this kind of process, each candidate would be more impressive than the next mean would be like. I can't

that each each person who came to the podium lightly CL name so yeah to be like if you like, the dunk contest, you know for the NBA, like all my god, I could just when you thought you saw the best junk in your life. You know the next guy comes along, and it would be that it would be that on every topic right would be like. You be talking about. The science of climate change would be talking about the social dynamics of the war on terror, so topics that had to have no relationship where you would have to be be amazed at anyone could be an expert in all of them. You would find someone who is an expert. A functional expert all of them a winner, but but someone who's, also ethically wise, who did it wasn't just wasn't obviously an asshole and who, who had who had a sure relationship to change,

in his or her mind right so like that this whole bit about flip flop in and in not, you know, being cut it like a sissy is some honestly represent changes of mind of in across a political career right. There's no is nowhere written. That is a good thing to believe it today. What you believe twenty years ago. In fact they do that on every topic it means. Basically, you haven't been in dialogue with the world, but there's something It's so taboo to change your mind that either You have to lie about it or you have to pretend it was. It was always that way or is just data from the system. The the the the system is is broken in that respect. But given the choice you know and when you have a choice between someone who is for all her flaws b

in the game for long enough to be really well informed and capable of compromise and capable of not just just breaking the entire, machine and you have someone who's. Just he could discuss stepped off the set of his reality. Tv show and then a line about everything and and and elbowed his way. You know on to your television set an never left because You know CNN, couldn't figure out how to give the mic to someone else. It's it's amazing grace on active attention. Because they realize that there's a the heated race right, the heated race, this guy was really famous and in a did race. This guy would say some crazy and so they would tune into him. So everybody had to tune into him so because of him saying crazy stuff he excel, rated the amount they were talking about him. So they're constantly talk about him and barely talked but other people an

he's created a wormhole in our political process. Now, where there's nothing so crazy that could disqualify him among the people who, like him there, so he can just keep it like nuclear bombs of craziness that that that that the press can't ignore that the every time think okay. This is the crazy thing he said. That's going to harm his candidacy, Celeste shine a light on it. It just helps them. You know he could just he could you know, he could he could get on twitter right now. So you know who I'd like to fuck I'd like to fuck Nicki, Minaj and, and it would work for him, in word form you would see, you would see a tweet storm of a billion people who say I'd like to fuck Nicki Minaj to like go get her and it's insanity, that's where we are. But in a sense, if we We we do admit this is a fucked up system, it's not ideal, it should definitely be reworked and it's so hard to rework when the best way to rework it. A Trump asked

so it just slams right into the White House boom blows the whole thing sky high. Who knows what terrible things have to happen? But maybe that would be enough, but the thing is we have. Those asteroids are coming anyway. So when you look at like nine hundred and eleven was an asteroid right. So it's like or a super bug that becomes a pandemic these are things that are coming and we need people who are in touch with with reality to deal with them right. So, like the moment, someone it advertises, they're, not only their ignorance, but the fact that they don't care that their ignorant and they do that this again and and they keep doubling down. That person is like, if you put that person at the helm, what you have done is basically put chaos at the hill right like like this person is going to believe whatever he believes. Regardless of the information

coming in and regardless of the consequences. That's just it's! It's is worse than having no one in charge, because and because you put the power in this person's hands right. So this this person is everything has to go through this node in the network. That is just like an Infp. For may shun scrambling device right so like no, how many? No matter how good the information is coming in you Everything had you've got a bottle neck here, which just screws up the signal right, that's what you're doing if you're, if you're, if you're hiring someone like this, who me yet in the best case you're. What you stated earlier would in fact be true, which he get into the oval office, and even he be scared about the prospect that he's now running a little better part of human civilization and he will hire the best people, or some semblance of the best people he can get access to and say to tell me how to not screw this up and- and that will be

and then it'll then it'll essentially be business as usual right insofar as you've hired that that the best people will people, people who are deeply in this game already right, know he'll defer to the generals when it comes time to make war being really really pragmatic about how they pick pollet actions and how they push certain people and decide not to push others. Do you think that some unlike Trump completely changes how they move forward? Now they realize that this can happen like How do you see that people are so goofy? We're so WWE out that you can get this guy. You know I mean this. Is this is where we're at where we got a guy, I told him: the wall just got ten foot higher yeah. Everybody gets crazy like how could you say that once they realize that that's possible, how long before you like some motivational speaker, type dudes along before they jump in there hi Tony Robbins at present? So we that's what we have. I mean that that that's what this is all this away

person Tony Robbins for president in a way way way: positive, dude, yeah, but I'd vote for him. You know Tony right, because if God, no that's not what I mean I mean, but that sort of ability to excite people right like if we look at it like one of those motivational speaker do is like well There's a lot of yoga pants and he's going to he's going to be. The next president is going to get us in shape it's gonna be a reality. Show America is a reality. Show where there were author for the best so did you did you see this press conference he held, yesterday we're now- I did not know. There is a very funny moment where the press there was one journalist I I didn't recognize- who it was, who get some sub, so Trump is being very combative with the the the the press pool and he was he was basically shouting them down- not answering any of the questions.

And one journalists just aghast said. Is this what is going to be like when you're president? Is this? How your is this, how it was gonna, be like to be in the White House Press Corps and deal with you end, and he said yes, this is this. Was this is exactly what time you like and- but you could just see that, like that the journalists like they turn the camera on the room, a journalist and they they are astonished by what is happen. Like they don't know they're participating in this process and in in in sometimes they have created this process. But dad is this? No, not all of you just many of you. Enough of us is this. What you do is it Is this what it's going to be like covering you with your president yeah? Let me going to have this: Ok, yeah. It is going to be like this David. If the press writes false stories like they did with this because Half of you were amazed that I raised all of this money. If the press,

he goes on to like they did where I wanted to keep a low profile. I want the credit for raising all this money for the vets. I wasn't looking for the credit and by the way more money is coming in. I wasn't looking for the credit, but I had no choice but to do just because the press were saying I didn't raise any money for them, not that erase that much of it was given a long time ago, and there is a very process, and I think you understand that. But when I raised almost six million dollars and probably in the end, will raise more than six because more is going to come in and is coming in. But when I raised five six million, as of today more coming in- and I and this is going to phenomenal groups and have many of these people vetting the people getting the money you play the moment, I was referring to. And so here is a case where he's probably almost certainly

line about his history of giving to veterans affairs and says he gave money very recently after people started fishing around to see if he actually had given the money that that he claimed a given to the veterans. But it's not I mean this is the what's difficult about this is that I mean the press. Yes, there are. The press is just a, highly imperfect in there and also partisan, and there are false stories and there are exaggerations and they screw people over. Yes, and there are reasons too- not trust the press from time to time, but there but in this case you have a someone who- there is no amount of fact checking and disconfirmation of his statements that that forces him to ever acknowledge anything.

That he's done wrong and the lack of acknowledgement to he pays no price for it. Among among the people who, like him, and so the press is powerless and and then the, but the net result of, like a of it press conference like this. If you are a trumps follower is, He just showed how biased and and petty the press pool is and the press you need to just be beaten up by a strong man who who's not gonna, stand for their bullshit. But it's a it's a M committee. What the coming, at the very least, that kind of communication is kind unbecoming that personal expect and that's pretty mild. No, that's not me compared to his. They know his parodying of the of the the disabled reporter, who he I mean you you. You saw that that where he you know did like a, I am a cerebral palsy imitation at one of his speeches.

Yeah. Oh yeah yeah. He he was interviewed by. I don't happen to know who the and it was a reporter was ok. It was making he was making fun of somebody with cerebral palsy, he's done so many things that you could, you would think, would be fundamentally canceling of a person's political aspiration's like you can't you cut Marco Rubio, pretending to be like. I just goof the on someone, cerebral palsy, it added at one of his campaign. Events of those be the end right. One of things it's on TED Cruz was just that video of him with his family. The out takes where there are. They say that you didn't see it now, it's a gem, it's spectacular! It's him his mom and he's like my mom praise for me, often for hours every day, and she would she

so I put the fucking talking for hours every day. No, I don't you can't even say that, and so they have all these really awkward moments like ok, I'm going to go in for a hug, I'm gonna say I love you. It's all like weirdly mapped out back out online and people were like, oh christ. Ok, I see that this is a bad game like you're, not even good at this game. This is you're terrible at this game yeah. He was objectively terrible. Well that says it's Trump competition with the thing that will think about cruise that never even got out, which was the reason to be scared about a cruise presidency was his level of religious craziness. I mean, one was even pushing on that, because there was just enough to push on before even got to yeah. You have to hold on to those weapons yeah, but I mean it had been: a crews been the nominee. It would be all about religion, what's odd. Is that that's not a handicap in twenty? Sixteen that you can have that and people consider it an asset

well. The one thing that surprising and actually hopeful in Trump's candidacy is the fact that he has. He has dissected out the religious, social, conservative component of of the Republican Party, so it's likely the evangelicals for the most part we're going for Trump over cruise when it was pretty clear to them. The trump was just tending to be religious, and it's also Trump gave one speech at. I think Liberty University where he spoke. He said you know Chris. Things to, and it's not the way any Bible reader would would speak about. Second, how would you say? Second Corinthians, that's how would say yeah yeah answered so so he said things to it, like my own, as though this is something he has just opened every every night before I went to sleep hi, and so it is clear, that was clear to them that he's that he is just just

miming the language you know or impersonating a person of faith, and but they don't care really as long as he does it, and that's that is, if you gonna look for a silver lining to this. It it shows that it's not it's, they just want, space where their religious convictions are not under attack, and they don't really care that the person in charge share them. Just if you pretend to share them, that's good enough and that's better than actually caring, that this person really believe in the rapture or anything else. That is obviously crazy, but yet so I don't think any Christian is voting for Trump thinks. Then they'll say I'm not judge another man's faith right arm.

Yahoo my to say: what's really in his heart right, they'll say that, but he's just given if you've been paying attention to, who he's been an and if you just look at how he talks about these things, I don't think it's fully in any any Christian, That is it so, as I think, they're willing to vote for someone for now. For other reasons that are fairly depressing in their own right, they're willing to to vote for someone who's who doesn't really play the game. The way they do. You have to believing God to be president, two thousand sixteen right when you when you say that there has to pretend to believe in God yeah. I I I think with Trump. I think it's I think is the pretense is, is obvious enough that I don't he's falling in the better part of the of the people who were voting form? Who who, who would say they care about a person of faith being in the White House. So if anything he might be

one thing he might be breaking is the barrier on having an atheist president, because I think he you know it's just no, but nobody thinks he is a person of faith. I don't think anyone really things that so so he's he's me might be. Our first date is present to help us in that in that we're as well another Trump media right into the White House, yeah, I'm starting to sound like a trump supporter. Occasionally an asteroid does something good. Who would be the ideal president? I mean like what kind of a person I mean it would probably a person who doesn't seek attention, a person that well, I don't think could be that I, the the process is even even an optimized process will be. Or require enough sacrifice of what or many people want most of the time they

it will be an unusual personality who has to get promoted. You will be on some metric be, and it's was by definition, narcissistic to think that you should be in this role right right. Who are you to think that you should be running the civilization at this moment in history and to be free to be On it, for you to honestly stand at the podium and say I'm the guy, you know the woman, I am the most qualified. I should be doing this right. I can help you know If you are going to scrutinize the kind of personality that could give rise to those opinions, it's not yeah. There's some miles. You would probably want to change tweak if you, if you had to be married to this person or answer, because it's not an optimal personality, so it that is going to be is a kind of pathology of of power seeking that might be just intrinsic to it. But

If you want someone who is actually wise ethically did you should try to map that on to Trump right? Just that he imagine someone saying thing I like about Trump is the he is so deeply ethical and wise right. It's just it does not. It's like saying it's: it's because his hair looks so natural It is, I mean, there's just no is the antithesis of what he is. The thing I like about trump is that he is so well informed about the way the world works and where he's not informed, he his ignorance so quickly and he remedies it as fast as possible. He he fast. You know he seeks out the best experts defers to them and you know he's just he's as mindful of the limits of his knowledge as he is. He is

about his expertise and his expertise is vast right, want to be able to say that about a present. You could not begin to say that about trump right you could prob. Police, say that honestly could probably say that about Clinton right I could. I could go for help yeah for all her defects, she's very knowledgeable and I'm sure she will just try it where she got where she doesn't feel like she's got the knowledge he's going to try to go to the go to the source of the knowledge right, just grabbed the best text. She can find. I think she will. I think she will be as aware as you are. I would be of the consequences of not knowing what's going on right. She's, just gonna want to find out what's going on where, as this is a All trump has advertised about himself is that he thinks that bluster and banality and bullying will win in every situation. Just like it is attitude. Guy

he is, the guy is winging it and he could not be more obvious that that this guy is winging it on every level, and it's like it's just it is it is, is there there be no way for him to signal the fact that he's winging it more clearly than he is with everything he's doing and and yet there's no penalty. Do you think it's possible that, in this age of information, the way we can communicate with each other that we're gonna experience the cycles, these waves, these it in an ounce? These hi and low tides of really smart presidents and really stupid presidents, and we just people, revolt and there's just it's so easy to stay alive is plenty of students who go out there and so. There are only willing to vote for other dumb folks, so the other dumb folks get into position. They send out the frequency that only the dummies here and everybody else is going. What the fuck is. Everybody vote for this guy for what is happening, and then it makes the

are people rebound and for years and challenge themselves anew, because they they need some sort of an enemy to rally against to reach their full potential and then with about the low tide, you cannot have the high tech exam Paris. Hopefully that's not an analogy that applies. The maintenance of civilization, the smell yeah. I know the time and maybe will, at the very least it's a wake up call for the political establishment. This silly game, they've been running of two candidates, just doesn't work. Someone can cope object candidacy get in there, throw the fucking key wrench into the gear system and guess what Trump's running for president now he's he's the head mean he's the head guy for the Republicans. How is that even possible They don't know a mill to Mays in it is. It is a way if nothing else, it is a total wake up call for the Republicans minute, they're. Just it's June acasta, it's June, everything is decided lockdown, so we have July August September,

Tober November, where that close, but he's not someone who has been who is aligned with the republican platform in most ways right. So it's like he's been, the truth is virtually no one knows what at what his policies are, because he he keeps changing his position on things like taxation is like. If there actually is no he's, he said, he's talked on both sides of of of core issue, core republican issues, but and in many ways he's weft of Hillary right he's, you know, he's left of Hillary in terms of being a nice play, Sheena stay like he's in his relationship to war is by both extremes. Like he's like no we're just going to get out of the world's business right, we're going to be isolationist, which is deeply anti republican,

but I'm going to be the maniac who you're never going to know who I'm going to bomb next right when you were going to wipe out ISIS or just straight away right did not not a man left standing and I'm not gonna, take any from anyone, including China and North Korea, so he's that, but we're gonna pull back in a huge way and not be in anyone's business right. He said both of those things. I'm it's hey it's! It's was way too interested in a way it made. We don't want politics to be this interesting and it's kind of a MID November is going to be. The polls are closed, watching those debates and waiting for a swing in the polls. As a result, it's just going to be going to be way too interesting. This would be like watching the super bowl. Those first debates. You know it's going to

it'll, be one hundred million people watching those debates. I have a prediction, I think. I think it's entirely possible that this whole thing was a plot that didn't workout this. I think he probably came out of the gate, saying crazy shit thinking. He would thank the Republican Party and get his friend Hillary Clinton into the White House, No, that's it well, she didn't get in the and he kept trying to alter kept trying to make. About Mexicans and it just kept making him. Better and better and now he's stuck. You can't pull out. Ok that that way That would be a great moment that would change the system, but we going to have to go through something like this in order for us to realize that this is crazy, that a guy can just do this, can just not really have any interest in politics. If you pulled out, then he should get the Nobel Prize for everything if he pulls out at this point and says: listen, I'm just I took you to the precipice here, just 'cause. I wanted you to reckon.

Guys how unstable this situation is? You guys could elect a demagogue who is actually an incoherent demagogue? I'm not! I haven't even been playing an incoherent authoritarian right. I'm uh, on the one hand, very liberal, right and tolerant and on the other hand, I'm like getting ready to be Hitler, and you just can't figure out who I am and yet you're still prepared to vote for me yeah for him to do a post mortem on on his of of culture. That would be the best thing to ever happen, but I don't think that's that's what whatsapp Do we need someone like this so that we realize how silly this whole thing is? Do we need someone like now now we need a qualified person to deal with all of the other hassles and dangers that are coming our way.

It had nothing to do with what we do right, but that person is not that, even even if we were doing everything perfectly There would still be the tsunami of risk right and hassle and waste and all the rest of the world, chaos that is coming our way if it's just for getting. Even if we had our our house in order in every respect, we still have terrorism and the global climate. Angel, you you have got, you've got China and India and what are they doing in terms of complying with with climate goals? You have at home with all the things we've been talking about it, the the the the the the first will certainty that there's gonna be a pandemic at the end, the not not talking about bioterrorism. What,

but just the for sheer fact that in nineteen nineteen there was a killer flu and is going to be another killer flu right. This is no way it is not coming to the conflict and we need it. We need people and it would be people people to smart people to change the to optimize. The system deal with these kinds of things and if we're promoting religious, maniacs and and Z, narcissists and liars and ignoramus, is an only that those people how this end well, this is just so weird year for Like heavyweight boxing.

You know they have those weird years for heavyweight boxing with Tony Tubbs is terrible happened and where you could be, or you could be, the heavyweight champion of the world. They went through a period of time and like the early 80s for Tyson came around was a series of like these champs that were, like you know, sort of like journeyman fighters and then Tyson came along, but only only with heavyweights, right yeah, mostly with heavyweights yeah the lighter weights. They were always bad ass, but I think that maybe that's what's going on. Maybe we need to have this bad season get this season. If our way realized the danger of having an inept person in office, whether it's a liar or a dude. It's money or or or Trump, whoever it is just go through it and realize how silly it is that we have it set up this way. Still yeah except people thought that of Hitler. I mean, This is you know the any comparison to Hitler. Obviously, brand USA Exaggerator, but

they thought. Let him get in there and fuck about them will have somebody better. Hitler was a comic figure for a while for a good long while and it people were including the american press we're incredibly slow to recognize what a sinister character he was and he was he was considered above phone and and and there was you know there was like a list of. Maybe Jamie could find this. I think it was home and garden. I think it was home in a house in our in home garden. You know it. There was a a I like it right up on his. You know the Eagles master, his house, that was it was this pure puff piece of you know Hitler love in in our architectural magazine at home, with the fewer I think so this is a like a guardian right

others amid him sing gardens yeah. Yes, yes, so that people you can see the on the actual pages. I think there are, you know PDF's online, of the actual pages of the of the article, but this is probably a the actual text of the article, but it's where is is just you know like Architectural Digest, as does the the eagle's nest, and but it's at a time where it's not too far away from a moment where it should have been absolutely obvious to everything. Can person that this guy was going to try to conquer the world for evil right, and yet it wasn't obvious and end it. When you look at how it was not obvious, it's pretty humbling. If you don't know, you would have been necessarily different. I've decided for the up until this conversation, practically I've been looking at Trump as a clown right. I just bought a house,

so, what? What would this clown actually do with the power of the presidency? You know, I don't know that he couldn't be. I mean he's given voice to a kind of authoritarianism. That you know some people are his enemies are noticing his friends are discounting, but he's talked about image going after the press and maybe he's bragged about how many people he's going to torture right he's talked about. You will, of course, win would do waterboarding and we're gonna do worse and we'll maybe will kill the kill, the families of terrorist right and he taught he, but he but there's a kind of a I mean it's just. He make America great again. What Do if he, if he actually had more more than anyone in the world, I think it's it's

alleged questia transition from you know, comedy too all my god. We can't take this back in in anything like that. Your short order. You know that would be too. That could well be terrified, but to go back to the question of heavyweights. Why do you think you could be a fake heavyweight and not a fake middle weight? our network, is not that many really good athletes that go to boxing when they really large. They tend to go to football, interesting or basketball. If they're really tall It's like if you look at the money that, like guys in the NBA can make or guys in the NFL can make, I mean the really top level guys can make it in this amount of money. So when you get the really super athlete guys They tend to gravitate towards the big name. I mean, there's no bigger name sport than football. So getting someone to abandoned the whole team thing and having the balls to go one on one in a cage and having that mentality, that's all

so very different, because it's Not necessarily the smartest thing to do. But it's most challenging thing to do and there's some really smart people that do it. So, even though cage fighting isn't it's not the safest way to get through life for a lot of people that in region, it becomes like an extreme, extremely difficult pursuit and then that's what it becomes. Them, you know and in the heavyweight division, those guys were being lured into other ways and boxing was just kind of went through like a peak in a valley when Ali and then it went Larry Holmes and even though Larry Holmes was amazing people that appreciate him for how good he was so that doesn't like the middle weight level. That it's not the same competition for that kind of athlete. They go for a little big little lulls in the middle weight division, but it's always pretty fucking strong, but I mean why, wouldn't you have the same competition for the high level athlete at the one hundred and sixty five wait: there's just

is, that our favorite sports are are require bigger people like basketball and football, and I think it's baseball isn't really apply here. The amount of cultures that produce heavy weights. First of all are fairly limited like very few heavy weights have come from Asia, except like polynesian guys, which I guess is kind of asian, but like like Samoans Samoans known, to be great, grateful but giants sturdy heavyweights like the these, don't really produce them that often some of that on the people and get that big in Japan. It's it's our cinema, but yeah, but they're, very fat yeah there's never been like a guy who looks like MIKE Tyson that came out of Japan in the eighties right who seem more there. While we can, I mean it would be a we're seeing more of that now, but I mean if we had a guy that was like a japanese version of MIKE Tyson. Just a super fast blinding knock out fighter with a head like a brick wall in the giant neck that started about of his ears and went down to his traps.

Verizon. When we first came on the scene, he was unbelievably terrifying, so there was never in a japanese person that has that kind of physical strength, so it is limited genetically and I think, in a lot of the a competitive boxing countries, they tend to be poor countries. I think also in a lot of poor countries. You'll see much smaller man like you'll, see like some some manner like flyweights like these are it's very rare. You find an american flyweight. Most Americans are larger to get more food. I think probably is a lot to do with that are just just the genetics in general, but, like S, America produces a lot of flyweights like Philippines. That's, of course, where Manny Pacquiao came from him. He was like eight weight classes lower when he first started and if you're a great athlete it at one hundred and twenty pounds or one thirty minutes, not a lot of sports yeah. Well, do you do you spell?

If you were, I mean some of these guys are really tiny, but they're amazing. Boxers right, I mean there's, there's a ton of on, but the United States. Johnny Tapia was a smaller guy. I think what it would wait to Johnny Tapia fight out find out, but there are some lightweight guys that were just so incredible. They brought so much attention to those divisions, but there was never this might little peaks and valleys where greatness comes in and people have to recover, and the new people come on little great, but there's always been pretty steady. Would you fight at super Highway yeah, so he was one of the rare Americans Mexican American Johnny Tap. He was a bad mother, Fucker Super flyweight, which is what is that, like one hundred and twenty six or something maybe one hundred and thirty- I don't even know them. 'cause bantamweight. I think it's in the UFC, it's different, there's different weight classes, one hundred and fifteen pounds wow crazy.

Tiny yeah and he was like wild wild guy. They did a documentary about him. How did he so he died, yeah he died. I don't remember, but he had a lot of problems with drugs and crime and craziness and he had like MI vida Loca tattooed on his chest, issues like what I might get to the presidency. Now he was a wild, but just an amazing fighter to watch so much fun. I think you know in where the bigger people are. You know adjusting to tend to gravitate towards other sports yeah. I think that's all of this in boxing like it always like one hundred and sixty one, forty seven to one hundred and sixty is always been like the promised land. It's sugar, Ray Leonard Marvin, Hagler, Roberto, Duran Floyd, weather's in there Sugar Shane Mosley's in there. So many guys are in that that mix that's the sweet spot. That's always has been this guy. Fighters and optimizing class strength and speed that,

yeah. I think you see in the UFC two there's I think. Well when it comes to just freak movements. I always think that the flyweights in the bantamweight, twenty five and thirty five to the fastest moving like twenty percent faster than anybody, but I always want like how much of that is because they're just not affected by gravity as much and those are not affected by the the the blows they're being land by the other guy? It's like a it's. It's still less it's mighty mouse mighty mouse is the one of the few guys that division that consistently stops people here, disease last fight with Henry Cejudo, nine nine was, it was incredible- was in San I mean he he this guy Henry. So who knows an olympic gold Medalist one of the best wrestlers to ever compete in MMA, I mean he is just a stud wrestler and a really good kickboxer two. And mighty mouse clinched up with him and hit him with His knees to the body that were just out

in this world technical. Just so perfect, no wind up, no slop, just drilled, a min on each side with perfect precision, and he just crumpled. He was like what the fuck he got. The victory on he's used to the body need the shit out of his body face, but it was the fluidity of the way who is moving his knees. In the perfect position I mean it was they were so perfectly oiled, like everything was turn down a path that it had gone a million times, which is like a retired pinch or yeah, but it was better than I've ever I mean it was without a doubt the most one. Well, there's there's another one between Anderson, Silva and Rich Franklin, but that was like a prolong brutal, be down where Anderson just keep beat, beat beating them up in the clash and broke his nose one where yeah I uh. So I remember a victory was a wide Weidman or was it silver? I can't remember someone

one on Anita the chest against someone who was community. Can you need someone? Who's? Yes, is down as Hell Son and the actor since all right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah that was free to brutal as a brand name. What what mighty mouse did in this fight, that was crazy, was the precision of the placement of the need in a quick. They came just Bam, Bam, bam, Damn just control them and control your guys in Olympia, gold, medalist, wrestler, just a stud wrestler. It was really pretty impressive, like really amazing sharp technique, but I wonder heavyweight even move like that. Yeah, probably not as you get bigger. There are just things you can't do click clearly as a no there's a limit to the size. You can be and be not only athletic to buy even amulet. Right. I mean you can't you couldn't have a thirty foot tall person who could walk around and you know your bones would break and 'cause mass goes up with a cube of just the size.

This is why it is why, if you I'm apartment is a comedy from point but like if you, if you, if you could drop it aunt off the empire, state building and it'll, be a it's it'll fallen and hit the ground and be five drop a horse of him. First, a building, it's You know liquid horse. It say a there Your have you know and the air resistance with surface area the at the air resistance goes up, but by a by the square. The surface area is so, but that doesn't counteract for the mass going up with a cube the volume. So so

the horse is bigger. You think it might be able to kind of act like a winning more than it as much as the aunt would ask a lot of air resistance. Is China, so it's a horse, but it's it's. It's masses is going up with a with a cube of its with the cube of its size. So it's some the bear. Doesn't resistance fall at all and what it's doing for an ant but yeah, but yeah we have no limit on. This. Is one function like if you, if going to engineer the super athlete, if we're going to give you like chimpanzee muscle proteins or whatever to make you super explosive and strong. You have to get that right with your. You know your connected issue in your bones and everything else, because you can rip your own arm off with your you know: holistic modes, yeah, if you, if you measure good chimp strength and human ten, I good lie. Take your own arm off and be the person with it.

Well I'm sure you saw that video of the little boy who got into the gorilla cage yeah how to shoot the gorilla that seemed I heard a lot have. I didn't pay a lot of attention to the commentary, but it seemed pretty straightforward to me. They have to shoot the gorilla yeah like with the zoo on that one. It's totally tragic and it's, how is a zoo zoo, is certainly culpa, for having an enclosure that a three year older four year old can get into right and how that happened. But so you got to fix that, and but it's totally tragic, but once you have a four hundred pound gorilla that has a human child and is not letting it go in dragging it around. I mean it wasn't looking aggressive toward the child, but it just the fact that it moved it around with that kind of force who the who knows what was going to happen, I mean look like you had to uh

as quickly as possible. We have to assume the Deca rule is going to know that a baby is more fragile than a baby gorilla. We never there I don't assume anything we can so yeah. No, no, there's no way it could. No, I never experience that have just rip torn torn his head off easily accidentally yeah easily, no totally tragic and sure the the the parents and this and those who are reaping in sufficient criticism. But once that situation is unfolding, I think a you can't sh tranquilize exit, as work fast enough right now so and would play my graduating in fear and it's being attacked. Jesus cry so scary, though, but if it was your kid, I think he probably like shoot that fucking gorilla yeah. It was your kid yes, I mean it's some more people carrying guns. You know so

well. It was in Cincinnati right if they have been in Texas it properly. You have some some innocent bystander who was going to take the law into his own hands. Yeah Chuck Norris pants, jump right over the railing open fire cash yeah it's, I saw some horrible comments to or people like they should just shot the parents while they were at it and like but it's easy to be outrageously, fucked up little kid. This, should have been able to get in. First of all, doesn't get you gotta get rid gorilla enclosure, it is an architectural failing, I mean, should it should be impossible? Yes, it's not a laser yeah, not just like horror year old can do it. How could a three year old, like it, should be impossible for volts to get in there with it. With the gorilla and yeah we've been been happening with, like it's do, regular lately, like guys, have been breaking into zoos and some guy tried killed by the lions recently right, Jesus Christ,

then you gotta realize you've got a lot of responsibility. When you have monsters in a cage in your city, you can't let babies get in there. I mean that's, a gorilla is awesome as it is, but if it wanted to attack you, it's a monstrous beast, it's a thing with power: you couldn't even fathom a gorilla, could literally pick you up and throw you like. You could could've football and they can launch you there so strong, you don't do it didn't google it they get to be like five hundred pounds or something crazy. Well. This was like four hundred pounds, God, but not not not one hundred pounds like a Bob Sapp four hundred pounds and we three hundred, but it's like three hundred pound gorilla, is much stronger than Bob Sapp yeah. I mean they're, not equivalent pounds, it's unfathomable the amount of physical strength and must just sucks that they keep him in zoos in the fur.

Replace it sucks that they had to kill him, but it really sucks that they keep doing this zoo thing with smart stuff like if you Don't have giraffes in the zoo and I had a whole bit about it that they look like relax 'cause, there's no lions around, like they don't care they just given some food but there's some animals that look tortured and primates in particular. They just look so freaked out in this enclosure and is weird place where people are staring out of their pace in and try to get away from people's gazes. It's just now. I think it's very very stressful to them. I think it's a hard question of what to do given certain certain these species are are on the verge. Extinction right so like. How do you preserve them? I you are so you can preserve them in all kinds of technical ways like like you know, have their d

in a frozen and be able to reboot them at a certain point. When we, when we haven't when we figure out how to preserve their habitat, but the yeah I mean, I, I think that I got, I think, there's a role for for good zoos. To also you just want to maintain the public's connection to these animals, because it the decision to destroy habitat- is made by people who don't really care about the prospects of extinction right. It's a very good point when you present that way, because the people that are over there are facing, I mean the PETE, any people that are over in Africa trying to save gorillas and chimps, and I mean that is a unbelievably difficult struggle. They might not make it So there's real concern that if there was no regulation at all and there was no one telling anybody what to do that they could just go in there and wipe them all out. Well, historically, that's we've done right so if any, if with that kind of everything that we pair off of him anything you can

make money off of anything that you can. I mean I don't know what the hell they use, chimps and guerrillas for, while was the whole. Bush meat trade. Well, they they just I mean there's Bush meat, they eat them, but then there's the what do they call Bush meat? Well, as you go into the bush, you go into This is accounting, but he just shoot everything. Well, it's just it's just your their hunting species that you know you don't think of. Is food species but they're? You know they're, beating, monkeys and gorillas, and and that's why, call it Bush meat. Well, I mean Bush, is they call? Bush is like the jungle, so it's but it is just hunting species that are better they're, not they're, not dumb minute. The there's the other component of it, which is there, are like you know, the the crazy ideas of the Chinese have

about the medicinal properties of your tiger bone wine writer. Why don't Warner said so? You have these species that are being hunted by poachers because there's a market for their their parts. You, like I, the ivory trade but the now, but some some people does each species that endangered to just with the term bush me is always associated with primates. For some reason I was always trying to figure out. Why I don't know is that true I I'm probably not maybe my mind. It was when I read about people eating chips. Right now comment, and it was my in Stephen Ella, did a show in Bolivia where they show a monkey, and it's it's so weird to watch these people mommy is out. They live in Bolivia and they live in very much like the way they probably lived hundreds of years ago. They are handmade, bows and arrows he's long spear like

rose. It's not like a regular bonow. That's like like a five foot, long arrow or a strange. They walk around barefoot. And they have some russian shotgun and their favorite thing do. Is he available? So they have a russian shot. Guns got a russian shot. Gun rests on how they got from somebody, and it made it all the way deep into the jungle. The shelves are very precious, but their favorite thing to do is shooting eat monkeys like their number one favorite thing to eat and they cooked it on the show, and it was it's really weird to watch talk about some strange genetic connection that you have with a very, very human shape like the lips in the eyes. In the face

a you could recognize a certain amount of human in that little little fella when the r fella female, whatever female version of fellow, would be, but so they they cooked it over this fire and then made like this stew out of it right, yeah, well, actually the to go back to our own cultured meat conversation. One thing: that's weird about that prospectors. Is that if, in fact, so, if you're, making it just growing cells in a vat, then there's problem with cannibalism, writes a you, could be growing human meat and fat right. That's that isn't zero ethical problem, but it's just as calm as grotesque, as as a at least to my palate has Is it fairly grotesque thing to contemplate, but the the these are just the distinction you're talking about. We did. You know there is no in principle human dna

right and this, and that and at the cellular level, the the the the said, the difference between human muscle protein and me a bovine muscle protein It's not me that if this, if this was never attached to an animal, it's we're dealing with concept here, it's like I mean so you mean when you bite a fingernail and swallow it are you practicing auto cannibalism it right, it's I'm at some level it is it at the concept is doing a lot of work. It's it's on ignore a bowl when you're talking about depriving another person of life, but if you're talking about spending up cells in a vat and then it becomes does it really matter. You know what whether this is. This was a person, maybe people decided that it would be. The only ethical choice altered human. If you can eat meat, you have to eat human meat. There's the end of this academy

you can't harm any other animals. Not only not. You have to eat yourself. This is what it would make. The cattle industry could do to just quash this. Just spread the rumor that their human cells in those vets and yeah exactly to your local enter you get scraped, and then start, making your monthly supply of you Soylent Green, is people, and they just have it in a vat and they break you. If a cube every week right yeah here is Joan Fingernail. Yes, can you eat yourself the only meat you're allowed to teach yourself. Well, we figured out a way to live in harmony with nature. We just have to kill everything except us and then eat ourselves. Tell us which part of your own body, you want to eat for the rest of your life and we will culture those cells. Well, I know it was you that I was having this conversation with once I believe where we were talking about how, when areas become more educated than women become more educated, it tends to slow the population down like people and they tend even worry. That of these graphs continue further on that people,

in industrialized parts of the world as they get into the first world if they do more likely to have less and less people less and less chance for till It goes down with literacy and education with among women, and so just kind of map that onto you know life is you know it here? So it's a given aw all the choices available. You know education, economic and and ability to plan a pregnancy, so we are here. We will have women who want to have careers want to go to college when it in and they did. They delay pregnancy to the point where they they have realized a lot of those aspiration's answer.

Pregnancies come later and later and later and and and families get smaller and smaller and and met. So do you know virtually no one chooses to have ten kids in face of all of his other opportunity that they were the things they also want out of life. If they can avoid it, If you can't avoid it? Well, then you just find yourself with ten kids right or if you have some religious dogma which, as you, though, it's possible to avoid you shouldn't avoid it 'cause you were put here to have as men kids as possible, but are you allowed to bring that up when you talk about the population crisis? Are you allowed? two. I mean that's a that's a fascinating piece of information. What which population crisis are you thinking of? Because there there is one, two, two different ones are two opposite ones is China, where they don't let you have girls, don't

if they have lesson that I think they've relaxed, that I think they've relax the one child policy, but I'm not sure I number here in something about that and the other one you would say India. Well, no! No states know that there are the the other. There is a. There is an overpopulation crisis in certain countries and and and disproportional in the developing world, and there is under population in the developed world, and there there is most of western. Europe is not replacing itself so you're having these senescent populations who have to just have to import

they rely on immigration for for the to carry on the functions of society because they're, just they're, not it read anywhere near replacement rate as it with the most surprising detail that brings us home is that there are more adult diapers as Japan. A more adult diapers sold in Japan than baby diapers now is think about that, for the implication of that for society right hit it. How do you have a son How do you have a functioning society, boring, perfect robots that can tend to your needs where you have just disproportionate people who are no longer economically productive, rely pain on the labor of the young, to keep them alive and cure their diseases, and and

defend them from crime all that, but the the ratio is totally out of whack right. So you need. We need like the world, is a giant ponzi scheme on some level you keep. You need new people to come in to to maintain it for the old people, boring apart from having some technology that allows you to do that without people, but I think our everything heard about population recently suggests that we are on course, globally to peak around nine one, slash two billion and then taper off. I don't think anyone now is forecasting this totally and sustainable growth we're gonna wind up with debt as a million right at me, nine and I've billion people said on going where we're going to. You know hit something like twenty billion people

right. I don't think anyone, even the the the most Matthews in people is. It are expressing that concern the moment which which, which was the case like twenty or thirty years ago, where they thought this is just going to keep going and we're going to hit the carrying capacity of the earth, which is something like forty billion people wow. I don't think anyone think so we will because we're just fertility is falling everywhere, but it but his fall and actually below reflect replacement in in the developed world. Do you think in our lifetimes, in our in our childrens lifetime, it's feasible that we figure out a way in some way to unlock not endorsing like taking peoples, money and giving it to other people, but in some sort of a way to eliminate poverty. Is that Eve

possible, is it ever going to be possible to completely eliminate poverty worldwide and within like a lifetime? Well, I think we talked about this. The last time when we spoke about AI, but I mean this is the implication of much of what we talked right here. If you imagine building the perfect labor saving technology right, where you met, imagine just having A machine that can build any machine that can do any human labor? You. Powered by sunlight, more or less for the cost of raw materials right so you're talking about the ultimate wealth generation device and now we're now talking about blue collar labor we're talking about the kind of labor you and I do right so like the the the the artistic labor and scientific labor, and you know good, just a machine that comes up with good ideas, writings or talking about general, artificial intelligence.

This, if in the right, political and economic system, this would just cancel any need for people to have to work to survive right. It just there'd be enough of everything to go around and then the question would be do we have the right political and economic system or week where we actually could spread that wealth or would we just with which is find ourselves in some kind of her and this arms race and and a situation of of wealth inequality, unlike any We've ever seen, it's a we! Don't we don't have it's not in place now? If someone just handed us this device, you know if and it worked all of my concerns about AI were gone. I mean there's no question about this thing. Doing things we didn't want it do exactly what we want. When we wanted and there's no there's no danger of it of its interest.

Coming misaligned with our own. It's just like a perfect Oracle and a perfect designer of new technology. If, if it was handed to us now, you know he, I would expect just complete chaos right now. It's played if, if Facebook built this thing tomorrow and announced it or a rumor spread, they had built it right? What are the implications for Russia and China? Well in so far as they are are as adversarial as they are now. It would be rational for them to just nuke California right because it because happiness device is there some winner take all scenario I mean

you win the world that if you have this device, you can turn the lights off in China. You know the moment you have this device, you can just save his just the ultimate cuz. It literally were talking about, and let me know many people are made out whether such a thing is possible, but again we're just talking about the implications of intelligence that can make refinements to itself in overtime course. That is there's no relationship to what we experience as apes right. So you're talking about a system that can make changes to his own source code and become better and better at learning and more and more knowledgeable has instant if we give it access to the internet, it has instantaneous access to all human and machine knowledge, and it does

thousands of years of work every day of our lives right, they just thousands of years of equivalent human level, intellectual work, it's just a it's on it. I mean our intuitions completely falter at that to to capture just how immensely powerful such a thing would be, and there's no reason to think this isn't visible. The only the most skeptical thing you can honestly say about this is that this isn't coming soon right is like this is not, but to say that this is not possible, makes no scientific sense at this point it it there's no reason to think that a sufficiently advanced digital computer can't can't instantiate general intelligence of a sort that we have. There's no reason to think that, maybe the intelligence has to be at bottom, some form of information processing and if we get the algorithm right with enough hardware, resources and

The limit is definitely not the hardware at this point. It's it's. The the algorithms. There's no reason to think this could can't take off and and scale. And then we would be in the presence of something that is, that is like having an alternate human civilization in a box that is making thousands of years of progress every day. So just imagine that if you had in a box you know the ten. Order people have ever lived and You know every time. Every week they make twenty thousand years of progress right because because this that that is the actual. We're were talking about electronic circuits a million times faster than than biological circuits, so even if it was just- and I I believe I said this- the last time we talked about a I, but this is you know this is what brings it home for me, even if it's just a matter of faster right now, but it's not anything specially spooky is just this can do human

level, intellectual work, but just a million times faster. An again, this totally under sells the prospects of super intelligence. I think human level intellectual work is is is seem pretty paltry in the end. But if you just imagine just speeding it up, imagine if we were doing this podcast. Imagine how smart I would seem if between every sentence, I actually had a year to figure out what I was going to say next right say this one sentence, and you say you ask me a question. And then in my world I just have a year going to go, spend the next year getting getting ready for for Joe and it's going to be perfect, and this is just compounding. Pawn itself like? Not only can I not only am I working faster, ultimately I can change my ability to work faster. I mean.

We're talking about software. They can change itself you're talking about something that becomes self improving, so there's a compounding function there, but it's The point is is unimaginable in terms of how how much change this could affect and if you imagine the best case scenario where this is under our control right, where there's no alignment problem where it's just doesn't this thing do anything that surprises us. This thing will always take direction from us. It will now- over. It will never develop interests of its own right, which is again the fear. But let's, let's just say this is totally obedient- is just an Oracle and Genie Route in in one and You know, we say you know, Cure Alzheimer's and it cures Alzheimer's. You solve the protein folding problem and, and it just it just often run. And to develop a perfect nanotechnology, and it does that.

This is all again going back to David Deutsch. There's, no reason to think this isn't possible, because the thing that's compatible with the laws of physics can be done, given the requisite knowledge right. So you just get enough, telligence as long as you're, not violating the laws of physics, you can do something in that space but the problem is. This is a winner take all scenario, so Facebook does it tomorrow, and China and Russia find out about it. They can't to wait around to see whether the? U S decides to do something, not entirely selfish with this right, because there, with Amy their worst fears, could be realized of Donald Trump, as president was Donald Trump Gonna do with a perfect a I when he has already told the world that he, you know hates Islam right, it's a it's a m. We would have to have a political and economic system that allowed us to absorb.

This ultimate well save it wealth, producing technology and and again so this may all sound like pure Sci FI craziness to people. I don't think there is any reason to believe that it is but walk way back from that edge of craziness and just look at Dumb ai narrow, a I just self driving cars and automation and intelligent algorithms that can do Do human level work. That is already poised to change our world massively and create massive wealth inequality, which we have to figure out how to spread this well you know. What do you do when you can automate fifty percent of of human labor? Will you paying attention to the artificial intelligence? Go match yeah yeah I I don't actually play go, so I wasn't paying that kind of attention to it, but

I'm aware of what happened there and you know the rules of go now, not so that I know. Actually I don't play. I don't know I don't I don't know. I know I know vaguely how you, how you, how it looks when the game is played, but I don't must be very complicated, though yeah more complicated and more possibilities, and that's why it took twenty years longer, for a computer to be the best player in the world, it's it is. Did you see how the computer did it? Why didn't I? I know listen to the company that did. It is deepmind which is was acquired by Google and they are at the cutting edge of AI research and yeah. Well, it's in the cartoons are proportionally not so far from what is possible, but the

I mean there is again. This is not. This is not general intelligence like we're talking. It's like these are not machines that can even play TIC tac toe right now. There's some there's been some moves away from this, like Deepmind, has trained an algorithm to play. All of the Atari Games like from nineteen eighty or whenever and it Very quickly became super human on most of them. I think I, I don't think it's super human on all of them yet, but it could, it could play in space. Invaders and all these and break out all these games that are are to highly unlike another and it's the same algorithm becoming expert and superhuman in all of them, and that's a new paradigm and it's using a technique called deep learning, for that and that's and that's been in a very exciting and I will be incredibly useful. You know if it is. This is in the other. The flip

kind of all this. I know that everything I tend to say on this sound scary, but this is all like that. Scariest thing is not to do any of this stuff. It's like. We want intelligence, we want automation, we want to figure out how to solve problems that we can't get solved. So, like intelligence is the best thing we've got so we want more of it, but we have to have uh system where I mean it's scary, that we have a system where, if you gave the best possible version of it to one research lab or to one government. It's not obvious that that wouldn't destroy humanity right that would it wouldn't lead to massive locations where you have. You know some trillionaire who's trumpeting his new device and and just fifty percent

women in the US. You know in a month right now, if you like, it is not obvious how we would absorb this level of of progress, and we we would definitely have to to figure out how to do it and of course we can't assume the best case scenario right. That's the best case scenario. I think there's a few people that put it the way you put it that terrify the shit out of people right and everyone else seems to have this rosy vision of increased longevity and automated everything and everything fixed, easy to get to work and medical pursue it would be easier, they're going to know how to do it, but everybody looks at it like we are always going to be here, but are we obsolete. I mean is this idea of living thing: that's creative and wrapped up in emotions and lust and desires, and jealousy and all the pettiness that we see celebrated all the time still see it. It's not getting any better right. If, if we obsolete

I mean what if this thing comes along and says, listen dishes waited you going to bandit all that stupid shit, you a band all that makes you all the stuff that makes you fun to be around yeah, it also fucks with you, three times as long without that stuff. Oh, I I think it it would, in the best case, would usher in eh. The possibility of fundamentally creative life, where on the order of something like the matrix, whether it's in the matrix or shoes in the world that has been made as you're a full as as possible, based on what would function be an unlimited resource of intelligent, Mississippi it right selected at the for there to be a an ability to solve problems of the sort that we can't currently imagine images.

It really is like a place on the map that you can't. You can't image indicate it's over there. You know it's like the blank spot on the map. This is why it's called the singularity writes like this. This is a it was. It was John VON Neumann, the the center of game theory who mathematician who. Is one along with Alan Turing, a couple of other people's really responsible for the computer revolution? He was the first we use this term singularity to describe just this, that that there's a speeding up of information processing technology and ape a cultural reliance upon it, beyond which we can't

actually for see the level of change that can come over. Our society is, like you know, in an event horizon pass, which we can't see- and this certainly becomes true when you talk about, is intelligence systems being able to to make changes to the selves and again we're talking. Mostly software is not I'm not imagining. I mean that the most Morton Breakthroughs, almost certainly the level of of better software I mean, as is we have in terms of the computing power that for the physical hardware on earth- it's not that's not what's limiting our ai at the moment is not like. We need more more hardware.

But we will get more hardware to up to the limits of physics and look at smaller and smaller as it has an you know, if quantum computing becomes possible or practical that will, and actually David Deutsch is is. The physicist I mentioned is one of the fathers of the concept of quantum computing that will open up a whole nother area. You know extreme of computing power. That is not at all analogous to the kinds of machines we have now, but it's just When you imagine repeat people, don't people seem to always want to. I mean I just had this conversation with Neil Degrasse Tyson on my podcast. He name dropper yeah right now, he's just dumb skipping cool I'm. Just I'm just attributing these ideas to him. He

no. No, he doesn't take this line at all he's not he thinks it's all bullshit he's not at all worried about AI. What does he think he thinks that we just just? use he's drawing an analogy from how we you currently use computers that they just they just keep helping us do what we want to do like we decide what we want to do with computers and we just add them to our process and that says, becomes a automated and then what we'll find new jobs somewhere else like you? Don't you don't need a stenographer once you have voice recognition technology and that's not a problem. Mister nagral, find something else to do, and so the economic dislocation isn't that bad and computers will just get better than they are, and you eventually SIRI will actually work. You know, and you will answer actions well and you're. Not it's not going to be a. You know, laugh line. Siri said to you today and then all of this will just proceed to make life better right. Now

None of that is imagining what it will be like to make, because it would be a certain point where. You have systems that, are you know it's like the chat. Best chess player on earth is now always going to be a computer right. This No, it is not gonna be human born. Tomorrow it's going to be better than the best computer, and that's it like it's already. It's like it's the we have super human, just players on earth now. Imagine having computers that are superhuman every every task that is relevant, every intellectual task right, so the best physicist is a computer. You know the best medical diagnostician is a compute are the best prover of math theorems is a compute best engineer as a computer right, then there's no there's, no reason why we're not headed there I mean it would be. The only reason

could see we're not headed there. Is it something massively dislocating happens that prevents us from continuing to improve our intelligent machines. But if you just the moment, you admit. That. Intelligence is just a matter of information processing and you admit that we will. We need to improve our machines and less something heinous happens, because Telegian's and automation are the most valuable things we have at a certain point, whether you think is in five years or five hundred years, we are going to find ourselves in the presence of super intelligent machines and then, at that point the best source of innovation for the next generation of software or hardware or both will be the machine. Themselves right. So then, so then you just then that's where you get. What was what the map

petition Ij Good described as the intelligence explosion, which is just the process, can take off on its own, and this is why The singularity people either either hopeful or worried. But you know, there's there's no guarantee that this process will be remain aligned with our interests and and every person so even meet a very smart people like Neil, who says: they're not worried about this. When you actually drill down and why they're not worried you find that you're, actually not imagining machines, making change just to their own source code and. They are not, or they simply believe that the to so far away that we don't have to worry about it now Wrightwood and

it's actually a non sequiter. I mean to say that this is far away is not actually grappling with, is not an argument. This isn't going to happen and based on what two and is based on? First of all, there's no there's, no re and to believe Jamie find out where there is. There's no, we don't know how long it will take us to prepare for this right so like like, if, if you knew that it was going to take fifty years for this to happen,. Is fifty years enough for us to prepare politically and economically to deal with the ramifications of this, the a and and to do it and, to add to say nothing of actually building the ai safely in It aligned with our interests- I don't know I mean so fifty years is- is like we've had the Iphone for what ten years nine years? It's like fifty years

a time right to to deal to deal with this, and this is no reason to think it it's that far away. If we keep making progress, I mean it's not. It would be amazing if it were five hundred years away mean that that seems like it's it's more likely from what I I'm in the sense I get from the people who are doing this work. It's far more likely to be fifty years than five hundred years, like you know,. I mean the the people who think this is a long long way off, or I mean they're saying you know, fifty to a hundred years, no one says five hundred years. No, no, as far as I know, no no one has actually close to this work and some people think it could be in five years right I mean the people who are you know like the deep mine people who are,

very close to this or are the sort of people who say 'cause the people. The people who are close to this work are astonished by What's happened in the last ten years ago that we went from a place of dear very little progress too. You know wow. This is all of a sudden, really really interesting and powerful and and again, progress is compounding in a way this counter intuitive people systematically overestimate. How much change can happen in a year an underestimate. How much change can happen in ten years, and I you know it is far as estimating how much change can happen in fifty or a hundred years. I don't know that anyone is good at that. How could you be with giant leaps, come giant exponential leaps off those leaps and it's almost impossible for us to really predict what we're going to be looking at fifty years from now. But I don't I don't know what they're going to think about us

that's. What's most bizarre about it is we we really might be obsolete. We look at how ridiculous we are look at this political campaign. Look at what we pay attention to in the news. Look at the things we really focus on where uh strange, ridiculous animal and if we look back on, you know some strain dinosaur that a weird neck. Why should that fucking thing make it? You know. Why should we make it we, you might be here to make that thing and that thing takes off from here with no emotions, no loss, no greed and just purely existing electronically, and for what reason? Well that's a little scary. There are. There are or scientists who, when you talk about, why they're not worried or talk to them about why they're not worried. They just swallow this pill without any qualms we're going to make the thing that is far more power, full and beautiful and and then we are and it doesn't matter what happens to us.

I mean that that was our role. Our role was to build these mechanical gods and and it's fine if they squash us and I've yeah, I've literally heard a a peoples and heard someone give a talk. I mean that that that that's what woke me up to how interesting this areas I went to this conference and in San Juan about a year ago, and there were a you know like the people from deep mine were there and, and they were real, the people who work very close to his work were there and I'm hear some of the reasons why you shouldn't be worried from people who we're interested in calming the fears,

so they can get on with doing there very important work. It was amazing because that they were a highly on compelling reasons not to be worried, and this is is, is is just so so they had a. They had a desire to be compelled they're, not they're, not we're not at all. I will know it that their people people want to do this work the deep assumption in many of these people that we can figure it out as we go along right. It's like you know it's just like we're going to we're just going to get when I get closer. What we're far enough away now, even five here. Even if it's five years, five will get there once we get closer once we get something. A little scary then will pull the brakes and talk about it, but the problem is they are sent. Everyone is essentially in a race condition by default, and you have. Google is racing against Facebook and the Ui this: is racing against China and every every group is raised.

As every other group, however, you want to conceive of groups this. This is a to be the first one to be the first one with. Incredibly, powerful narrow ai is to be the next. You know Multibillion dollar company right, so everyone's trying to get there and it they suddenly get there and sort of overshoot a little bit and now they've got something like general intelligence or something close. Relying on and they know everyone else is attempting to do this right, We don't have a system setup where everyone can the brakes together and say: listen, we gotta stop racing. Here we have to share everything we have to share. The wealth to share the information we have to this truly could be open source in every conceivable way and we have to defuse this

winner. Take all dynamic. You know, I think we need something like a Manhattan project, to figure out how to do that. You know not not to fig how to build the ai, but to figure out how to build it in a way. It does not create an arms race that does not create an an incentive build unsafe ai, which is almost certainly going to be easier than bill in safe ai and just to workout all of these issues, because it's not, I think, we're going to build this by default, which is going to keep building more and more intelligent machines, and this is done in, but everyone who can can do it. You know as an aide with each generation. If we're even talking about generations is going to be, it will have the tools made by the prior generation. That are more powerful than anyone imagined one hundred years ago, and it just it's going to keep going like that.

Did anybody actually make that quote about giving birth to the mechanical gods? No, that was just mean but it was. There was a scientist that actually was thinking and saying that, but that was that was the content, what he was saying, we're going to build the next species that is far more important than we are and that's a good thing, and actually I can go there with him and mean it actually. The only only Kathy I hear is that unless they're not conscious right likes and let him if, if if the true for for me, is that we can build things more intelligent than we are more full than we are, and that can squash us and they might not they might. The unconscious for the right. That might be nothing like the universe could go dark. If this question, right, or or at least our corner of the universe, could go dark right, any of these things will be immensely powerful it so it it

If- and this is just you know the jury's out on this- but if there's nothing about intelligence scaling that demands that consciousness come along for the ride, then it's possible that I mean nobody thinks arc machines you know are very few people would think our machines are that are intelligent, are conscious right. So at what point does consciousness come online? Maybe it's possible to old super intelligence that unconscious in a super powerful. Does everything better than we do? You know to recognize your emotion better than than another person can, but then the lights aren't on chat. That's that's also, I think possible. You know, maybe maybe it's not possible. That's that's the worst case, inner the ethical silver lining in speaking outside of our self interest now, but just from a bird's eye view the ethic

silver lining to building these mechanical gods that are conscious. Is that yes, okay, we in fact, if we have built something that is far wiser and has far, but you know more beautiful experiences and deeper experiences of the universe, and we can ever imagine and there is there something that is like to be that thing. It's just you know, it is a has a kind of a god like experience. That would be a very good thing. Then we will have built in. We will have built something that was you know, stand outside of our narrow self interest. I can stand why the he would say that he he was just assuming. I will what was scary about that particular talk, because he was assuming that consciousness comes along for the ride here, and I don't know that that is safe assumption when the really terrifying thing is who, if this is constantly improving itself, an it's under beckon call of a person, then so it's

either conscious will not see the conscious when access itself right. It acts as an individual thinking unit right or as a thing out. I know it is aware Either it is or it isn't, and if it isn't aware- and some person can manipulate it like imagine, it's getting ten thousand. How many? How many thousands of years in a week did you say? it was just proved- it was just a million times faster than we are it's twenty thousand years. One thousand years in a week in a week in a week so with every week this thing, constantly gets better at even doing that right. So it's reprogramming itself, so it's all exponential presume, it just it just imagine again, you could keep it in the most restricted K. You could just keep it at our level, but just just faster just a million times faster, but if it did all these things, if it kept going and kept every week, thousands of years we're going to control it,

no, I know that you're protected, even more insane, just imagine being in dialogue, was something that had that that that a live, the twenty thousand years of human progress in a week- and you come back you know on Monday and say, listen uh. That thing I told you to do last Monday. I want to change that up, and this thing has made twenty thousand years of progress and if it's in a condition where it has access, I mean so we're mad. This thing, you know in a box your air gap from the internet and yeah, it's got nothing. It's got no way to get out right. I Even that is an unstable situation, but just imagine, in this emerging in some way online already being out in the wild right. So let's say it's in a financial market. That's again, this is what worries me most about this, and what is also interesting is that our intuitions here, I think primary intuition. That people have is no. No, no, that's just that's just not.

Possible or not at all likely, but if you're going to, if you think it's impossible or even unlikely I have to find something wrong with the claim that intelligence is just a matter of information processing I don't know any scientific reason to doubt that claim at the moment and very good reasons to believe that it's just undoubtable and the, and you have to doubt that we will continue to make progress in the design. Telogen machines and the want once you that Dennis then that all this left is just time right. If, if if intelligence is just information processing and we, we are going to continue to build better and better information processors at a certain point, we're going to build something that is super human.

And so whether some five years or fifty, it's it's a huge. I mean it's, it's the biggest change in human history. I think we can imagine right so and people what I find. I keep myself in the presence of people who seem to my eye to be fusing to imagine it like they're, treating it like the y2k. Virus or whatever it's just the y2k bug where It just may or may not be an issue right like like it's a hypothetical like. Maybe this is just we're going to get there and it's going to be it's either not going to happen or it's it's going to be trivial, but how you you don't if you don't have an argument for why this isn't going to happen, then you have Then then, you're left with okay. What's going to be like to have systems that are,

are better than we are at everything in the into intellectual space, uh and. You know what will happen if that suddenly happens in one country and not in another right. It's it's. It's has enormous implications, but it just sounds like science I don't know, what's scarier the idea that an arctic visual intelligence can emerge, it's conscious, it's aware of itself and the tax to present protect itself or the idea that a person. A regular person of today could be it could troll of essentially a god right, because if this continues to get smarter and smarter with every week and more and more power and more and more potential More and more understanding thousands of years I mean it's just yeah this one person up a regular person controlling that is almost more terrified.

And then creating a new life or any group of people who don't have the total wealth. Of humanity as their central concern so I mean what would what would China do with it now right? What would we do? What we do, if we thought China scene of by, do Where are some chinese company was on the verge of this thing? What would it be rational for us to do now in a with North Korea? Had it would be you'd, be rational to nuke them, given what they say about it? What hat you know their relationship, the wrestle, so it's some. Well, that kind of power. Would you stay rational that? what powers it so life changing it. So a paradigm shifting right, but if you to wind this back So what someone like Neil Degrasse Tyson would say is that the only base as for fear, is the a yeah. You don't give your superintendent in a I to the next Hitler right. That's that's obviously bad, but if we don't, if we're not idiot-

and we just use it well we're fine and that I think, is an intuition that is just that's just a failure to to unpack. What is entailed by again something like an intelligence explosion, a process that once once you're talking about something that is able to change itself and. You have to go so what would it be like to guarantee? Little? Also, we decide. Ok, we're just not going to build anything that can make changes to its own source code. You know any changed to software at a certain point, is going to We run through a human brain. And we're going to have veto power. Well is every person working on AI going to abide by that rule? It's like we agreed not to clone humans right, but you know we going to stand. That agreement further in the rest of human history and is he owned? It

is our is our agreement binding on China or Singapore, or you know any other country that might think otherwise it's just we have is a free for all and at a certain point, we're going to be. You know close enough. Is Everyone is going to be close enough to making the final breakthrough that unless we have some agreement about how to proceed. If someone is going to get there first, that is a terrifying scenario of the future you know you cemented this last time you were here but you are not as extreme as this time. You seem to be accelerating rhetoric exactly going deep boy, hope you're wrong I'm on team yeah, ideal, Degrasse, Tyson Rice, one! You know that Neil, and what is it so it in defense of of the other side to I should say that the okay to David Deutsch also things I'm wrong button.

He thinks I'm wrong, because we will integrate ourselves with these machines so that this will be the extensions of ourselves, and they can't hope it be aligned with us, because we will will be connected to them. That seems to be the only way we can all get along. We have to merge become one, but I just There's no there's. No, deep reason why I, even if we decided to do that right, like in the US or or or in half the world, one is. I think there are reasons to worry that even that could go haywire, but the no guarantee that someone else couldn't just build ai in a box. We can build a I such that we can merge our brains with it. Someone also just build ai in a box right and and that's and then then you inherit all the other problems that people are saying. We don't have to worry about. If it was a good Coen Brothers movie, it would be in vain did in the middle of the presidency of Donald Trump, and so that

that's when a I would go, live and then a I would have to challenge Donald Trump and they would have like an in. Context, but that that's when this thing becomes so comically terrifying, where it's just just imagine, Donald Trump being in a position to make the final decisions on topics like this. For the country that is, ACT

going to do this, almost certainly in the near term, should we have a Manhattan project on this point? Mister president, hello, the idea that anything of value could be happening between his ears on this topic or hundred others like it. Yeah, I think is, is now really inconceivable, and so what what? What price could we might we pay for that kind of inattention and and in a self satisfied in attention to these kind of issues? Well, this this issue, if if this is real, and this could go, live in fifty years. This is the issue it was. We fuck ourselves up beyond repair before then and shut the power off if it keeps going no, I I think it is. I think it is the issue, but unfortunately it's the it is the issue the doesn't. It sounds like a goof yeah it does. It does sound as you sound like a crack,

but even worried about this issue sounds completely ridiculous, but that might be what's how it's sneaking in here, air mattress, a it. It just imagine that that the tiny increment that would make a suddenly make it compelling me just imagine I mean chess, doesn't do it, because chess is so far from any central human concern, but just imagine if your, if your phone recognized your emotional state better than any best friend or your wife or anyone in your life, and it did it reliably right. It was your body like that movie with what team from her yeah he falls in love with this phone right. I mean that's just not that is not far at far off as now is a very discrete ability. I mean you could do that you could do that without any other a bill. Being the phone really like it it doesn't, it doesn't have. To too

stand on the shoulders of any other kind of intelligence. It could just you know each you have this could be you could do. This would just brute force in the same way that you have a great chess player that does, I certainly understand that is playing chess. You could have. It is the US kind, facial recognition, facial recognition of a motion and the and the tone of voice recognition of emotion and the idea that it's going to it's going to be a very long time for computers to get better than people at that, I think, is is very far fetched. I was thinking yeah, I think, you're right. I was just thinking how stranger to be if you had like headphones on and your phones in your ok and you had rational conversations with your phone. Like your phone, are you better than you know you like? I mean I don't know what to do. I mean I don't think I was outta line she yelled at me. I mean what should I say it would listen to every one of your conversations with your friends exactly train up on that. Just talk to you about it go listen this is what you gotta do is just way too critical, you're sounding angry. You

defensive, you got defensive. Why were you sort of ultimate jelly apologize? Relax? Let's all move on, you can accelerate it or ok, you're right man right man and, like you, talk this little artificial, maybe that's the first version of artificial intelligence that we suggest we go or let's give it a shot in like self help, guys in your phone right like a optional, trainer in your phone, how to talk to girls and, of course, the first breakthrough you slow down, dude slow down you're talking too fast got that cool yeah. Literally like giving you information. That would be like step one that would be like the Sony. Walkman and when you had to walk man like a cassette player that was like just like a vcr we're on our way to what we have today. You have fucking thirty thousand songs in your phone or something I think I remember the first walkman first thing is when I pack, when I skied there was something called it's called astral tunes or something is like is like a car radio that you could just put in a pack on your chest. Yeah they kept coming out with the pounds they would get. Small

or in smaller. So then that little little do would start telling you, young man, dude, listen to replace me every year, just let him stick in your brain will be together all the time, yeah and giving you good advice for years. Bro. Let me brain, and so you in this little artificial intelligence of you, have a relationship overtime and eventually it talks you into getting your head drilled and they screw it in there, and your artificial intelligence is always powered by your central nervous system. Have you seen you most of these movies. Like did you see her and and no I didn't know, Xbox. Did you see hocks market? There is one of my top ten all time, favorite movies, I love, That movie. Actually I like it. I saw it twice as I I I was slow to realize how well they they did it. I mean it was just outside of the first time I I thought I thought:

I wasn't as impressed. I I it again and they really. First of all the performance of I forgot, the actress's name Vikander Alicia, Vikander or something replace the robot in X. Maka is just fantastic, but scary. Good yeah talk you in anything we're getting a little full on time What do we like five hours and one slash two hours in, but I just got a note. This is about to fill up how many hours for naff Now computers about to fill. We do we just in a foreign half hour upon yeah. We we already keep going until she's is I've Jamie I talked I will I will I don't know you know what man wants to open up the box, a Pandora's Box of books about a I, I haven't regretted his ship. I've looked up. Is there any sort of concept of like all autism? In a I like a spectrum of a I, there are dumb. May I and there's an be smart, a I well yeah yeah yeah. I know it's so I mean that the scary thing so the US like Super Autism,

there's no across the board. There is, I think, that Super intelligence and motivation and goals are totally separable, so you could have a super intelligent machine that his purpose torda goal. That just seem. Completely absurd and harmful and non commonsensical in the city, the example that that Nick Bostrom uses in his and his book Super intelligence, which is a great book and and did more to inform my thinking on this topic than any other source. He talks about a a paper clip Maximizer you could you could build a super intelligent, paperclip Maximizer now not to anyone. We do this, but the point is you could build a machine that was that was smarter than we are in every conceivable way, but all it wants to do is produce paper clips right now. That seems counter intuitive, but there's no room. Who is no reason and when you can dig deep into this, there's no reason why you couldn't build a superhuman paper clip Maximizer. I just want to turn every

you know, just like literally, the atoms in your body would be better used, his paper clips, and so this is just the point he's making. Is that super intelligence could be very counter into? It is not necessarily going to inherit everything we find. As you know, comments sickle or or emotionally appropriate, or wise or desirable. It could be totally foreign totally trivial in some way you know focused on something that means nothing to us, but means everything to it because of some cork and how its motivation system is structured and yet it can build the per nano technology that will allow it to build more paper right. So at least at least I don't think anyone can see why that's ruled out in advance. I mean there's no reason why we would intentionally build that, but the fear is we might build something that either is not.

Perfectly aligned with our goals and our common sense in our aspirations, and It could form some kind of separate in instrumental goals to get what it wants wants that are totally incompatible with with life as we know it and that's you know again, the the the examples of this are always cartoonish, like you know how I mean you on mosque said you know. If you built of Super intelligent, machining told to reduce spam. Well, then I could just kill all people and I think, a great way to reduce spam right but see the re. The way that this laughable, but you can't assume the common sense, won't be there and less we've built it right like you have to have anticipated all of this You can't, if you say, take me to the airport as fast as you can again. This is Bostrom,

no it and you have a super intelligent automatic car. You know a self driving car you'll, just you'll get to the airport covered in vomit, because it'll, just it's just going to go as fast as it can go. So it's a it's our intuitions about what it would mean to be super intelligent, necessarily or are I mean, there's? No, we we have to correct for them 'cause. I think our intuitions are bad. Your kicking me out and you've been freaking me out for over an hour now, I'm freaked out that we did four and half hours and I thought ridiculous. Coming up on three man, I hope you're wrong about all that stuff. Maybe so it doesn't. It doesn't seem that I don't know only that Rosie Jamie I'm sorry, I'm sorry to be such a buzzkill to the woods might have to

figure out how to live off the land where your you are well prepared, barely hear the often as we do do a rapper the enemies, I'm gonna call you when someone walk and I'm bad at an all star Wall STAR, I won't be a vegetarian I'll, come to your house for their meat and it might get ugly. Folks. Let's hope SAM Harris is wrong. Thank you, brother appreciate it and uh your podcast tell people that you are waking up is my podcast and you can find on a website, SAM Harris, DOT, Org or on Itunes. You can get his book one of his books. If you go to audible dot com forward, Slash Joe Right is not get one go get one of those rocks all right. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, thank you, SAM. That was awesome thanks, Bro Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for tune into the podcast and thank you to our sponsors. Thanks to food ephod, Cie

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single source single family, single origin, coffee company, it's direct from the farm; they get it. They roast it and it's very delicious. That's k bankoficio dot com. That's it my friends who those crazy podcast young Jamie is a long one crazy, but SAM Harris is, I feel like he could probably that all day like you could prob is wind him up and play. Even the direction of any problem the world has and he'll illuminate that shit in a terrifying way. Talk about. We didn't even get to I'm pretty sure, oh yeah, for sure He didn't talk about the health problems he sort of briefly mentioned them that he's having a adjusting to his new diet, but he's the shit, love that guy so fascinating and the set fuckers all right, we'll see you soon, bye, much love, big kiss!