Ladies and gentlemen, but the fuck his gun, Going on how's everybody doing, How many days are coming up, I'm in Cleveland on September ninth, but that shit sold out, son, son or daughter daughter, doesn't really work. And then I am in Columbus, oh on September 30th, I'm at the palace thief here in Columbus, with the great tony mother fucking huge glue, and then I'm at the yeah, the palace theater in Columbus, and then on the first of October, I'm at the Tower theater in Philly. Oh those the only dates I got on the schedule up. Comment: that's for sale! um tying season what else sponsors square space one of my favourites, bonds?

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on the academy link and you will be taken to a section of the website with two hundred and twenty four plus pages of awesomeness, all kinds of great workouts, articles on the science of exercise, physiology and nutrition and diets, and there's also an on it academy in a physical form in Austin, Texas and amazing state of the art workout facility with world class instructors, including tenth planet JU, Ju Ju. So if you're Austin Texas GO there, you fuck and if you're not go to onnit dot com use the code word Rogan and you will save ten percent off any and all supplements my guest today is Louis Theroux and Lewis. Is a documentary filmmaker from the UK? He's an awesome guy he's been on the podcast before fascinating individual and he has a new documentary coming out very soon about Scientology

and uh. I had a fucking great time. Talk to him guys awesome, please welcome Louis. The Joe Rogan experience trying my day, Joe Rogan podcast by night all day would live. Welcome back Lewis, thanks nice to be I was saying before the podcast started, that you sent me down a Scientology rabbit hole last night, my friend, I've been down those before but last, night knowing that you were going to be on and looking forward to it eagerly. I watched a lot of stuff and you know I spent three years down the rabbit hole and it's a weird one. We do we do on the internet. We just clicking around yeah, just there's a lot on Youtube, but there's various very, very well resourced websites is one called Clamb

like I've, been to that one yeah and then there's all the tony Ortega stuff. I mean they just just whole worlds, and actually I mean there's a lot to talk about, but perhaps the biggest obstacle to making a documentary about Scientology is the overabundance of material. You know because there's just so many ways to come in on it and then you could just chase intriguing leads and then month scope buy and you're no nearer to filming anything. I had a lot of thoughts on this, and but one of the thoughts when I was really trying to unpack at all is that I feel like one of the reasons why a lot of these people defend Scientology yeah. I think there several reasons one because it's their team and once you become part of a team it it becomes something that you identify with, becomes very important to you, and then you want to you want to defend that. So I think there's that, but also, I think some people take some benefit in what L Ron Hubbard created because

you, have you read going clear? Yes, when I read going clear, I watched the documentary and then I read the book and one of the things that was more fascinating about the book was the fact that he was essentially trying to diagnose and treat himself and he was essentially a really nutty guy. He was very damage yeah. He he had a lot going on and he was a guy who was trying to sort of sort it out himself and in the process brought a lot people in and then created this thing and some people they get some benefit from this thing 'cause I was watching, like some of these people that are upset with you, like that woman there's a trailer where this woman was upset at you, because you were in, I haven't seen the documentary. Yet it comes out in America and January. But You were on a road you had a permit for, and she was telling you you're on private land and that's right

this woman like this? Is? It seems like a reasonable, intelligent, assertive, confident woman that would probably, if he didn't get into Scientology. She would have been successful the corporate world right, I'm sure but here she is her corporation. Is is written by a nutty science fiction. Writer who wrote more fiction, though any human has ever walked the face of the planet. He he made up more shit, hero put down more things that never happened, then anyone who's ever lived and they don't have a problem with that they like, I I mean you said about ten different things that I could breakdown break down. Allies. I mean I basically on the same page as you. I think that's the first thing to acknowledge about Scientology is that it's a religion and that all religions have a very high portion of it does to try to put it politely, but just bogus fallacious, clearly nonsensical,

Tyrael right in Scientology is is, is is is the same as all of those, I think, there's a lot of people who had who directed all benefit from Scientology. I think people, probably this people whose lives have been saved by Kirstie Alley will say at any opportunity that it was Scientology that got her off drugs, but I think a lot. You have to sort of take the whole package and we as far as how goes he was an only child. He was a fantasist, a lonely guy who is also a narcissist, and I think, as a writer I mean you can't one of the things in treating about Scientology is created by a Sci, FI writer right, there's, not most other religions are created by is it mystic sold more useful, introspective people, but a modern day, Sci FI writer who's who's. Writing these about aliens taking over foreign galaxies. This really dug into accounts for a lot of its it's very bizarre infection. Do you know what I mean yeah? Well, none of that. I don't think he wrote a second draft ever know he didn't have time he,

Channing it out. I think a lot of stuff that they say he wrote he did write like as he was married three times and at least one of his wives took credit for writing some of his stuff. I think even some stuff of Scientology may be written by his second wife who we then subsequently disavowed said he was never married too, but the guy was a he. He lied about so many things. He was also abusive to his wife, wives, I think plural as a physically. He he he was some abusive to them. He was very, very troubled and suicidal one of the most intriguing things in going clear is reading this list of arc after the call them affirmations which, when he was in after the Second World WAR, he was right with self doubt. He thought he was a failure. He was embarrassed by His sexual urgent urges is compulsive, masturbation and so on and so forth, and he wrote down a list of things. Do remember this section of it where it says you you do not feel compelled to mask made twenty.

Times a day. This all literally everything right you are. You were not a disgrace to the military. You would you acquitted your service in the navy very creditably. This all these. He was telling himself to reassure self that he was actually to feel okay about himself. It's a very humanizing document because you just see all his neurotic internet translate late. Beth then subsequently informed his lifelong attempt to, as you say, sort of therapeutically. He himself, I think, there's other people that identify with those self sort of damage, thoughts the these these thoughts, where they don't like their past. They don't like who they are. They don't like the pattern that they're on and they seek to try to change that and improve upon their position approved on their understanding and their acceptance of themselves. I think that's where Scientology does benefit a lot of people, and so it is tricky like many things in this life. It's not that black and white I mean. Is it black and white?

That is a cult and that there's a lot of Megyn aspects of that. Yes, absolutely it's it's pretty clear. When you see the people I tried to leave it and you know, and and tell the truth about their experiences in and what the how they've been harassed and hounded in yeah. That's all pretty black and white, but I think we can in some ways we can sympathize with some of the people that are in it and yeah, oh yeah, I mean the uh thing to because you started by asking what was it that made some people defend Scientology and is it loyalty to their team? But I also think that on the to proofread likes their concentric rings of commitment to Scientology in the in a in a circle, it is extremely demanding it and I would argue, abusive and job and you get

a cult like I only noticed circles as you get further from the center. I think it can be relatively benign, and especially if your v, I p or celebrity, in which your exposed only to the best source of treatment, you're given kind of platinum, called treatment, you go to the celebrity center, the roll out, the red carpet for you, and I think those people feel immensely indebted to Scientology. I think that explains a lot about Tom Cruise in that he's only ever been treated like a prince when he's been in Scientology, so he said he he feel so grateful for everything that they've done for him yeah I think his experience when, when he talks about them, if he's being honest, I mean if, if everyone had that experience Scientology would be amazing, you know one. You see him when they had the happy birthday thing for him and he's dancing and every is cheering like imagine. If you just people treated you like that, all the time, my goodness

dishing. It is like a female it just to see if they were going to be your girlfriend, a deterrent that whole imagine if they rounded up the most attractive young for but his in Hollywood to see whether they would go on a date with you yeah? I would make life very simple: if you, unmarried as I am, would it, though, what it, my god, I don't know man. I mean it's just dealing with a bunch of nutty people are willing through that process yeah and actually because it would be like I'm commerce, King MIDAS Thing, where you wouldn't trust any of your instincts. You will feel as though people directing pretend can villages everywhere you went you know to nothing would feel quite real right. That's a good point, also like Imagine your wife today. If you found out that your wife today was one of the people that had auditioned to be Tom, cruise's wife, I mean, if you don't, make the cut your damaged goods for the rest, your life at central, your your nutty, broad, who is willing to go and sign up to become Tom, cruise's new wife well to be fed,

didn't know that was the job. They were going in full right to be fair yeah. So so, just being they just thought they were up for some gig I mean do you, you know what I mean, maybe a sitcom alone. Essentially they were yeah and then Also. All of the this is a difficult thing around, but the Scientology treat. Of homosexuals, where they sort of shield them from the press or hide their act. Seventy and sort of you know what a beard is. I do they hire beards But you know that's, I mean that's a great point and I think actually that's another one that you know. I guess we've. You know we as a society of involved a lot of the last fifty years. To some extent, Hubbard was a creature of his times in his attitudes towards home is, sexuality. The trouble is because they're saying it's a religion that's been in trying to scripture, and so there are, there ought

is L Ron, Hubbard scripture that dictates that homosexuals, gays all of us there one point one on the tone scale, which is the same as journalists oddly enough, but it's very very low. Basically, you are kind of broken deceitful, devious character. Journalists are one point, one of his own same as part of a, but I- and actually, I think, quite explicitly explicit- I mean I could go down, and that explains a lot about why it's so hard to make a documentary in practical terms why they don't cooperate with two men trees, the yet they just see you as a pervert. You know if someone is dedicated to the to the a basement, if you manatee in somebody's holding humanity back from being what it should be. Assisting credible that he's managed to define journalist under that cat, the very people that we rely upon to investigate the truth and and and and expressed that truth thinks we disseminate that true to the general public, those people are perverts and and dumb yeah, and that scripture

is well. You know what it means you have, so it's not like you can argue against it. The it into in that took, I mean one of the big things up against is any attempt most kind of malfunction. In regimes, whether it's a corporate entity or something else you you know. You say this is a working: let's try something else so much of what happened and so I this was explained to me by one sources in the in the film a guy called multi rest, but he was very high up in Scientology. He said something could be working extremely badly inside Scientology, but if it came out of Harvard. Then you could really change it. Help at a party once said of the best way to wash windows is using of vinegar yeah. I do who is win decks, use, vinegar and because of that, whenever they washed windows in the sea org in the inner sanctums of Scientology, they had to use vinegar because Hubbard said that was how he was supposed to do it and nothing it can be changed. It's a bit like Mormons. I mean now moments. I don't know how they got it. They say that you don't have to be polygamous, but so

right. Turning an aircraft carrier around if he comes from. Basically, if it's gospel, then how do you? How do you were for a you know? You called changed his mind, is basically what you have to say. Well, that is the real problem with religion, because we all recognize that no one person has ultimate truth and especially when you're just going through this life, trying to figure out yourself trying to figure out what is this about this strange sp Bing balls floating in the sky and were hurling through infinity and what is the purpose of this existence and there's a lot of open ended questions that never have any answers. So when someone comes along and they have this rigid ideology where things are very clearly defined? You must ask who is defining these things? Who is this person that is beyond reproach and when that person is a yellow, tooth weirdo, that's dressed like a captain with some metals that he put himself on his. Jacket and he's a sign

in fiction author, who wrote more bullshit than any human being, is Everett and wrote bad books. I mean he's a bad writer. I've only read any of his big I've read. I've tried, read Dianetics because several times it's it's almost unreadable in my if you have, you tried to read dynamic Bob DIA Netex, once a late night before the internet, there the late night infomercial I've always been a person is really in the self help in psychology, and you know what to yeah, because I was I've always tried to figure out like what is it about. You know why why do sabotage themselves. Why do I lazy. Why do I not fulfill some of my goals? And so, we got into like Anthony Robbins, and I got into a lot of a psychology books and self help books and one night I was at home and I was watching this commercial for DIA Netex. So I said alright, I'm going to call this and I called, and I

I gave my credit card number of whatever it was and we used to. This is what well you you were an actor at this point I was working at quite successful yeah I was, I mean they would okay, the if they saw you coming, they would have absolutely that would have made the year well, I never went in. I've never went, but I did in the future. I did do the e meter thing, but that was way later so this is like one thousand nine hundred and ninety four, when I just first came to hollywood- and I was alone in my apartment in North Hollywood- probably lonely trying to figure things out just got here. I wanna buy this fucking thing. Those people sent me pamphlets, an paperwork and and in tations to seminars. In this thing and that thing for a decade I mean it just never end it. It was like weekly monthly, constant, this and they're very, very relentless in their pursuit, and if you looked at what their pamphlets say, it was all really reasonable. Enticing stuff it was all about. Improving yourself is all about fulfill,

in your goals, eliminate ing negative thoughts, illuminated other peoples, negative thoughts that are influencing the way. You view your life eliminating the affect of past experiences that were negative in that may have to find you and someone we all of that, and then not that, but that's basically Freud, basically yeah, it's Freud with a a lie. Detector. Could you, when you hooked up to a lie? Detector? That in essence is auditing. The problem is: when you read Dianetics, you realize how loopy it is, in my view, an in fact sometimes and I praise this sort of skeptical minded approach. People say what was your problem with science, only you know all religions a cookie, but the fact is is just exhibit a is just read: DIA Netex, you read the Bible? It's got looney stuff in it, but it's got passages of transcendent poetry and just parables that are you could meditate on and a beautifully written in the translated English. You read: Dinette Exanet

it's just childish stuff about literally things about. Oh a lot of your problems, maybe because when you were in utero as a fetus, your father tried to abort you, your father tried to abort the fetus. Are and you could still remember that and that's holding you back and the at that time record was playing every time. You hear that record. It sort of this sort of Pavlov, mixed with really weird totally unscientific ideas and then, It expands to pass lives, so it's promars or bad memories from previous lifetimes, and at that point I just like I'm not on this ship four, but you know even more it's it's hard. To be honest, I think, but that what we're saying earlier about rigid ideology is a rigid ideologies are always problematic because there's so many open ended questions to when it comes to being a human being on earth, and that is problem with religions. In that,

one of the things that religions do by creating these rigid ideologies. Is they make things so that you don't have to question stuff? And that gives some people comfort if you know so, these are the rules and you don't have to think about why home sexuality is bad or why you know you know, fill in the blank whatever the issue is, when someone defines something like that for you, it may it's. So you have less questions and you have comfort in these truths. You know air quotes, but that's not good for anybody. It's bad for everyone involved because they're not there are some things that I think We've all learned be nice. I see people an it feels better to them, feels better to you. You have a healthier existence. You have harmony with your neighbors and when you can create a good community of people that are being harmonious together and friendly together, it's a really nice place to live. Those are pretty that's a pretty much a universal truth. You know, there's a ba

Each of those that exist, but even those can be debated in disgust, and you know you find you know various approaches to the in goal of of happiness. Whenever you have someone who wrote down a bunch of wacky shit like this, and then you have seemingly intelligent people defending it like that woman that we were discussing and that woman was, she did not seem to stupid at all. No I'm sure she. I was reliably informed because in the sea, in the film we go off and meet her Ex husband, who is now no longer in Scientology, and he describes her as a very sensitive caring person a lot of the assertiveness she should. She shows. I think she probably acquired through Scientology and and and and a lot of Scientology training in terms of what it imparts to people is a quality, all of of being direct, being assertive, being confident

being in charge and being ok with sort of dominating the situations that you're in it's one of the reasons that I think it appeals a lot to actors because it it because I think that people who have any sort of insecurity or who are going into situations of uncertainty and it allows you to Youtube Program, your circuits in some way and be okay about using assertive body, language and speech and it also imparts a sense that you have all the truth is necessary to save humanity from itself, not just you penalty on earth, but throughout throughout time and space, and it is your negation to ensure that those truths are saved saved for posterity and communicated as widely as possible. In a totally unadulterated fashion, because any adult iration of the message means that not only do they not work, they become toxic and dangerous. It seems to me that there's a bunch of things going on in there

there's some aspects of it that maybe could be beneficial that they extract from that of their own homes, like these people that have a band Scientology can start Scientology light. Well, they do. They are doing that. Are there yeah, but one of the funny things is once you have signed apology light. It's called the Indy Movement Indypendent Scientology, and it's often allergy is made with some Luther and and Protestantism. You know when you know people said you know there's nothing in the Bible about the paper, see really there's nothing about selling indulgences and having palaces in Rome so in the Vatican. So actually, really there's just stuff in the Bible about. But you know following Jesus and reading the Bible, so shouldn't that be what we're doing, and so they go off. You have protestantisme the trouble with the independence movement is it turns out if you remove the rather predatory,

be raising side and the and the sort of fundamentalist controlling side you get something a bit wishy washy, that's more, alas, indistinguishable from many other self help cream, it's sort of loses its potency. It's almost that the authoritarian dimension of of Scientology in the way in which it demands total obedience from its followers is intrinsic to its ability to have an effect. That's fascinating people do in some in some way gravitate towards discipline and the but you see that in the military, like the benefit of so yes, sir, no sir, and one of the things I talk about in the film is, I mean we talked as well about the appeal of Scientology. Why do people defend it so it works for some people. I think there's an obvious thing of the thin into the wedge. You know you get in knee deep and then you think well, I've come

in this far so, even though I've got doubts will go a little further and then you sort of reach a tipping point of commitment where it becomes almost embarrassing to back out you sort of one hundred thousand dollars or more in your ten years in your family is annoyed. Would you tell them you don't see you? You read this. It's very hard to walk away from that commitment, so that this there's all these powerful read, compelling reasons for why, but the th, the other part, if it is- and this is the part that I, as an outsider, appreciate my own up to in the film- is that there's some in grandiose. It's a bit like trump right. You see these gilded casino. So, as you see this towering shiny buildings, you know they kind of over the top and grotesque, but there are also sort of majestic and imperial and if you ever watch Scientology footage there,

some of it's on Youtube and you see how they are very good at a certain kind of over the top aesthetic. Do you know what I mean almost a kind of Leni Riefenstahl ask with lights and flaming brazier's and thousands of people, surging upward in unison, and it has an effect, you sort of think. Well, these guys know how to run it, show if you go into any or have you been into and they call them or ensure for organization ok so near where I'm staying in LOS Feliz there's one it's on Hill Hurst. I think an you go in and it feels like you're kind of in a religious library, so to design by J Peterman. You know that, like the catalogue company and it has sort of old, globes and kind of distressed wooden Vernon, turn in a wicker chairs, and it feels like it's kind of slightly colonial golden age of exploration field in order mean, and you

it's very. It feels very sort of swept up in this narrative of we're in a place where there's adventure and in a certain sense of order and and this sort of seductive quality to it, there's a seductive quality to a lot of religions. I find a seductive quality to people that are very confident in what they're saying and this ultimate truth that their spouse zing and I went to the Vatican recently and one of the things that was really apparent to me with the sheer scale and the vast the size of like Saint Peter's. Okay, what is it's not safe? The drill it's schools approaches, isn't it yeah the basilica? Thank you. Basilica, which was just to me The most amazing thing I think I've ever seen as far as like a human creation, the most amazing thing- I've ever seen my life other than Chicha Nizza other than the mayan pyramids,

I was just stunned by the amount of work named in the the the hundreds of years of work that are gone and creating that but when you're there, the overall scale of it is so is so immense that it makes you feel insecure and makes you feel small. It makes you feel insignificant in the greater picture, and I think that that is a that's. A big factor with a lot of religions is to eliminate the power of the individual by making you feel the by the sheer scale of what you're seeing and what the the hall that you're, I'm sure, I'm sure that's correct, mandating

so yeah, and this one thing, which I would I didn't, which is our last year on the bright side. On the back of doing the Scientology program I was trying to, I was living in the U K and I was trying to get a program going about a fundamentalist Islam or not even fundamentally said she beyond, where it's extreme radical Islam so cold. You know basically, people who support ISIS, of which there are some in the U K, although the hard to interview, because it's actually across I'm too, to glorify terrorism is what it's called, and so they have to talk very gingerly around the subject. But if you get into a debate about someone who is sincerely committed to ISIS Brenda of Sunni Islam Rights, where they're saying actually, yes sex slaves are ok, they also like slaves, isn't quite the right term, but we proved that and blah blah blah and then you

throat, they say will by what authority do you challenge what we believe right when you start coming at them with some kind of humanistic, secular, liberal sort of view of life. Are you trying to say? Well, I'm not basing my. I don't have an authority as such. You know I'm not preaching religion, I'm just saying innocent is come better to be nice to people and they said, but we bet based on wall under what authority that you, you find that you actually don't really have it's surprisingly difficult when you're thrown back home first principles to make the case for a soldier, sensitive secular way of doing things. Does that make sense? You know one of the appeal because of I think, had with Scientology or Islam, more or Christiane extreme Christianity of the you know, whatever the form that takes they could say like we have all our answers there in a book, and God told us so who told you I know it well. No one told me, I'm real

wanted two millennia, two millennia old tradition found it in grieco roman times with with various people. You know in interpreters over the years, but actually I I cut you know. I can't really articulate that in ten words joining me yes and it's surprisingly hard, so once you're in the prison all of a faith based system, it's very hard to kind of leverage. Your way out, why didn't do a good job of trying to get them home base? Well, it's very difficult when they say that, like by what authority and you really as we don't have any and they think they do yeah, that's where it gets weird yeah. You know I don't have a book like whatever we call the other way of doing things you know, and also you don't wanna, see light will in Weston trigger you, you you're, not because whether Like you don't know, all of believes, have a some sort of geographic contemporize specificity to them as much as me, we might want to say that their golden rules that exist through time and space- I don't

I really they really? These are all kind of constructed right leg of culture. Yeah, like all will call. And so you having to say well, you know over the last few hundred years, since the enlightenment, we found in general torches, not a brilliant idea. Capital punishment's, not great in slavery, is largely discredited and they and they said well. So this is about the western enlightenment. That's your authority and I don't want to be kind of, basing it on that. So I just rice but he made a hash of it off to all. Do I did the interview my producer said to me so that yeah, I think he kind of owned you in the the guy who's, like the nicest depend, it's not doing he's doing he's in prison now that that was why we didn't one of the reasons we can finish the documentary anyway, that's sort of going off on a tangent. What would you go to prison for for allegedly glorifying to terrorism? You know. Did you hear

the twitter yesterday band two hundred and thirty five thousand twitter handles really for promoting terrorism. Really, two hundred and thirty, five thousand. That's incredible! How I mean a big, You know how they define promoting terrorism yeah that little is it would that'll, be islamic old, yes! Well, I would assume, because I am not must be that. But I wonder if that cause this yeah, that was a conservative, bright part blogger, who who is Milo, Milo Yiannopoulos. That was very sketchy I don't agree with what he said, but if you, if you really pay attention to what he said, it was very sketchy that these they banned. I mean if what you believe in freedom of speech, or you don't kind of yes and what he all he did was he made a post on Breitbart Bart about the Ghostbusters Movie and it was very critical,

basically called a piece of shit was a terrible movie set. Is this ridiculous, feminist, film and that creating this all female ghostbusters cast for all the men are buffoons and they do not flame in the African American ACT. He flamed everyone. He called them fat and ugly and disgusting, and you know what he's saying is essentially like look, I'm I'm bitchy he's. I use bitchy all the time he's a very flamboyantly gay guys been in this podcast a couple times he's Larry S. I I kind of funny. I want to use it, I mean yeah, I used to have with the only band and but here's what's interesting. He didn't do an anything bad on Twitter. When you look at what he said on Twitter was like nothing, you know was like nothing more than thing she it said. Leslie Jones had said a bunch of things about him or what other people had said. About her and she wrote something down. That was just poor grammar and e in he wrote my word

barely literate. You know Such a shame, schools in America. You know essentially what he wrote and then he was banned. I mean that is really mild stuff. I mean, if you, I think, what there's a problem. First of all that he's conservative and they don't like that and that he does attack feminists and social justice warriors and progressives and the left- and he goes after them and that's essentially the whole base of Twitter Twitter has this. What are they called again is there council? They have some strange, it's very orwellian. That's like safety and trust and Safety Council were things, but it's all watchdog. Group within which of the gas on it, well the where the two discs sides. What is and is not harassment and sorted it sort of like placating pp recreationally, outraged by other people's opinions. The trouble is it's a public space that is basically a false

corporate entity run yes is they can do whatever they want legal right yeah, but it's very ideologically base. It's very left wing. It's it's very weird and a lot of ways which I am in many ways, left wing. So when I read what they're saying I agree in some ways, but outside of actual real harassment, I just don't think that you should able to just ban someone, because they, you know, call someone a bitch or call someone ugly. It doesn't seem to me I'm not going to do. I agree with you. I mean I feel as though we are in a weird place, we're off on a tangent slightly, but you know it was around the time of Charlie Hebdo. You know we was what everyone's margin for the right to be offensive right and around the same time trolling became a buzz word and it was the idea that we should stop trolling and there's a certain disconnect. We're living through is a culture to do with wanted to defend the right to be offensive, but also come down hard on trolling and actually, at a certain point,

you can't have it both ways yeah well, there was also a lot of people that were defending what it had, been in Charlie Hebdo by saying that those cartoons were really racist. They were going so far pro Islamic to sort of right. Well, I'm gonna, say all right. What I heard was, and because I understood this was some people saying yeah, absolutely it's a crime, it's hideous and people have the right to be. You know to be, if but I'm not going to valorize the message or even hold these people up as free speech. Losses any more than I would do. If Tom It's go or NEO Nazi was killed. He does not that come here. He becomes a victim of a Lynch mob of a murderous campaign, but I'm not

there by a supporter of his output, so makes sense? Yeah, I'm sorry. What is a mistake here? I'm I have to text that to Tom Pablo thinks he's supposed to be here right now, apparently he's outside he's supposed to be our next Monday, Whoops Tom, yeah, I think so, social pen, for example. I think it was penned the american magician. No rice is union, it was a is a is a guild writers and supports the rights of rights is around the world in America, and this is what we don't given award. So does the divide in the among parachute should be given a what to Charlie Hebdo by giving them a ward? Are you there wasn't saying we so port, you for saying that Mohammed was a piece of shit or whatever they were saying, or are you You know, in other words, do you get an award for being killed? Does that there's a little bit of a conflict there? Yes

you know the words, so I don't I'm sympathetic to people who feel it absolutely was a crime was hideous. You know islamofascists killed Charlie Hebdo, but that does not thereby make Charlie. Those message, a laudable accreditable, one yeah. That's a really good point, because what were they doing and what was the point of what they were doing? Each is trying to be funny. Was it parity? I don't know if it was funny, because I I I don't speak French and I haven't- I have a attention to the translations is to me some something on it. So it didn't seem that far. But if Joe, if Julius Streicher right that you know they did, I'm not used to run a conf, compare them directly with this, but you an offensive propagandist for the just take an example. You know I wouldn't even go down this road once you bring the Nazis in it, it just cloud everything as soon as you say, Hitler yeah, it's a kind of thought blocking. These worse than Hitler. This trump yes, yeah. I think the

the bottom line is people were killed for cartoons. There's no way to defend that right. I think everyone agrees, We agree with that. Does that make the cartoons good? It certainly doesn't know they could be shit cartoons and were killed for shit cartoons, it's wrong to kill people for shit cartoons, but the car things are still shit. Even l RON Hubbard would agree with that. Hopefully I don't know well let's bring it back to Scientology, because that's one of the interesting things about Scientology is that anyone who is a quote unquote opponent of Scientology they're, allowed to violate pretty much all of their principles and just go after you, you the enemy, yes, and in the end, you you there's a whole different set of rules for engaging with someone who's a sub, an s p. Ninety suppressive, hustlers yeah yeah like how they do that. So that's what they do, Terry, too, by the way. Well, I you dis, you know they. They they bring acronyms and and a lot of stuff that in Scientology, is based on Hubbards naval experience. He loved they dress up in Nate

uniforms and they he loves things a little bit a bulletin source. Anything that leads felt kind of quality millet tree in You know what I mean in a way it's a mixture of some tree, kanaval stuff and then some corporate style stuff. What is isn't is a lot of religious stuff like that is the one thing that you don't get a flavor of in terms of the way they dress and drill there some show business. You know you got a little touch of Hollywood, you going to touch of naval, you don't have any sense of it being kind of spiritual, religious yeah in the I'm talking the way they still style themselves, the language they use, they constantly using abbreviations that a more or less unintelligible to the outside, which, by the way, is a lot of how allegedly, according just you know, experts on full reform. More cults, so called they say by learning a new language. It's part of what kind of gets you caught up in the thought patterns of of,

Yusef system. Well, that's also military people. If you, if you talk to people who really have a deep understanding of the military or people who love the military, they love to talk in those acronyms. They love to use them because sort of let everybody know that you're on the inside. Yes, it's like people, talk cars or anything where it's there's a there's, a surface knowledge that most people have. Oh, that is a ferrari. Oh, that is a corvette, but then there's deep, deep knowledge going into you know the different types of gearing in the axles, and you know it got four hundred and eleven rear end and this and that- and you know he knows, he's the deep knowledge with a deep knowledge of the car. What is the deep knowledge? Is the military and a lot of that is sort of expressed through acronyms? Yes, yes,

thank you bye and they they have stuff. So that's a big part of how they operate and I think as well. The I mean this is something I should I mention before. It is important to bear in mind as well that this much is Scientology cut. It costs the world into us and them times, which is very characteristic of a lot of systems of thought, the that are inimical to sort of freedom or free way of thinking. It's us and them it's like Bush, saying you're, either with us or against us and in Scientology, in a famous statement of Tom Cruises that he gave in two thousand and four when he was given a freedom medal of valor at a big Scientology Ward ceremony in England, he said you're, either in or either playing on the pitch or you're out of the arena You know that's the one. They gave him that gold dinner play huge like a flavor, flave style. So his things like you either on the picture out of the arena, because there's no half measures you know get in or you're out and the whole idea. If you're, not part of the solution, then you

part of the problem is a very dangerous slippery road to go down because you're, then, by definition, saying this good guys and bad guys, and if you're not on my team, you're, a bad guy. Well, let's fine. What the solution is Tom, you know sit down, tell us about what what are thetans explain to me how they threw paytons they throw. The into a volcano. What happens? Well, you know I'm going to sound weird now, because, like one of my promises that I made to myself was that I would never gratuitously market the beliefs of Scientology and one of the things they find offensive, is, is, is to reveal some of the secret truths that are unveiled. You know. Okay, I take a step back. Will you we need to Scientology is that it's a mystery religion, meaning that many of its beliefs are unveiled as you advance up the ladder of enlightenment. Ok, so you don't day one get told unlock with Jesus and Christianity on day one you're told he died on the cross for your sins, believe in him, and you will be saved and go to Heaven, there's no kind of catch. All

laser sort amendment that gets made when you you're a year, two years, three years down the line in science, you learn more as you go up some say that this is partly something that it owes to Crowley or Aleister Crowley. I think it's pronounce you know and that um Hubbard had practiced a form of Satanism when he was living in Pasadena in the 40s right after the Second World WAR and incorporated that aspect of it, and it is quite a seductive idea. The idea why I'm going to learn more as I go on a kind of unraveling mystery, so that is part of Scientology an when you get to the Ot levels, which is once you've gone clear. Which is sort of half the ot is operating fate and yeah. So so, to begin with going clear is was originally the best thing you two and then subsequently, though it was, he added more

levels and more layers and you get to the ot in this eight published Ot levels and ot, three various secrets are revealed and allegedly, if, if an uninitiated, to uninitiated person is showing the secrets that makes them go crazy. But one of the that you know you're not spoke in the foot and every documentary about Scientology, rejoices in telling you what the Ot stuff is, and I think you were about to touch on it. I promised myself that I wouldn't reveal them 'cause. I sort of felt It's a little cheap when all these documentaries sayin, This is what you like one hundred thousand dollars in, or two hundred or five hundred thousand you're, going to learn what happens at Ot three and then we, you know they spoil the surprise, for everyone, and I also felt like I'd like to be to say to if I ever meet assigned told I mean I'm sure, I've met some, but without knowing it. But you know if I have to meet Tom Cruise will back I.

To be able to say, like you know what I didn't ever do anything I just. I have a right to know my truth and expressed my truth. Don't want to mock you. I don't want to make. You have a right to believe what you want to believe and if you you no more than four so jewish guy to eat pork or tell arrested very near to cut his hair, and so I'm not going to say to an ot. You know, I know what happens Ot three and it sounds like a bunch of junk. Well, even have to say it's a bunch of junk but just expressing I think there is what we know. Ok. Well, we know about their doctrine or there, whatever you want to call it their scripture. And there's an amazing moment in the documentary the HBO documentary, where was it, was Paul exactly how it's? How I guess I guess that he gets to two three yeah you'll gonna send fine, he gets so t three and he starts reading some of the hand written stuff by L, RON, Hubbard, there's a whole purple. If it's an interesting fit in the book, to remember, like he's, guided into a room, and literally it's almost

They take it out of a safety, deposit box and kind of open it up with glocks out of white gloved hands and then there's a handwritten kind of piece of parchment inside written in Hubbard's. In your script and you read it in that room and then and then the guy has a little routine. He follows like the person who brought your income. It is: has it been red and Kemp comprehend it or something like that right and then you, Read it and you like yes and then ask it shall be done or something and then they put it back in and take it away yeah. Well, it must be. Is it the sense of theater, like I love it's like being in a mason, so I mean yeah all that secret squirrel stuff is very appealing. Squirrel. Yeah, I think I forgot about secret squirrel yeah, but think it's important to talk about what we know about what that is about. What is that's fine, I mean you don't want to. I would say is what they believe is.

Man is in the immortal spirit and you If not, you are not your body, you are the Spirit and the Spirit is a fate and that's the term. They use for Spirit and your spirit. You in essence have lived multiple lifetimes in multiple bodies going back millennia and go Ford Millennia, and that's not a unique thought. No, I mean you need to them that you know you have that in Buddhism, but, unlike in Buddhism, the Trans, my great of souls does not. So it's only in humans right, I don't think you can become a chipmunk right which you can in Buddhism. I think Can you not? I do not know, and I think you know, depending on how you'll calmer is that's number one and number two which is even more important or just a simple, is that you can carry all memories through the life times using Scientology in the gift of Scientology gives. You is the ability to retain your memories and your identity across multiple lifetimes, and that's why it's so important to a scientologist to arm to record.

His or her pulse lifetimes, because ingests that you'll you'll sort of your on your now on your cosmic destiny, and you will carry it forward into your when you went when you next incarnate these are all unique ideas. I mean they're they're interesting, but when you know the source of all of it and yet they ignore it and they choose to not pay attention to the other things that he read or wrote. Rather, battlefield earth that movie with John Travolta you ever that never sold that way. It's wonderful it's wonderful! It's right! there with Jesse showgirls, yes I've seen showgirls showgirls is like a tour de force of writing a movie while you're high on cocaine, Joe Esterhaus yeah yeah, the husband, yeah direct. It's a great combination, it's it's and one of the best unintentional comedy will ever been mine. All you that we could vote hoping to directory. I directories

and starship troopers he made and the first Robocop he new. I think he knew what he was doing. I think he has a keen eye for camp and thought this is hilarious. Esther has maybe not it could have been. It could have been a. I think They were just coked out of their mind and they made a wacky fucking movie and they probably thought it was great that fucking print it. Let's go, let's go out. Let's let's hit the ivy, I don't know I mean I think they're just out of the mind I mean if you, if you watch that film there's a scene where a lit, what is your name, Elizabeth, Hurley, Berkeley, yeah and the other guy from Cardmember Hulu soon Israel is from was it from? Was a tv show that it was on the handsome one Kyle Fox's name on a local o'clock? Lynn, yeah, kinda Mclaughlin there having sex in a pool, and she starts flopping around like a fish.

Fish, like she literally starts having spasms like if you continue to have sex with her. I feel like that's. Rape like this is a woman is having a god, damn seizure and you're going to keep having sex with her. Have you ever seen this seen? No I've seen the movie. So yes, that must have it's wonderful. She starts there having sex with he starts flailing, like as, if she's had your God, damn stroke she's in the well have a heart attack or seizure and that choice is the only thing that haunts me about that movie like. Maybe it is maybe it was camp. Maybe they were doing that on purpose. I think- it was, but I read an interview with the director of of battlefield earth: is it battlefield and He was apparently is a pretty good director and had cut his European. I think maybe french, and I think he just didn't know what he was walking into you know. And I think he didn't even didn't, really check out what he was, what the cake was

well, that was the product of John Travolta. Yes, I think results was back labor. I love it. Maybe yes, and it's wonderfully bad yeah, that's a funny bit in in going clear it in in the book where they, I think, Cruz sees it, and- and it's like this is so embarrassing for he's really upset about it. Well, he was upset that they showed that video of him, you know saluting

Telerate Chin only salute when I got the metal right, all that crazy yeah it with that's all it's all over. You, too recruitment would be upset about that being yeah all they try to get that taken down, of course, spread like wildfire through the internet, because you just you just can't you can't take things like that down. No, it's classic. Although a lot of stuff's been to there are a lot of great son, told you videos that have been taken down really, yes, like there's a famous one arm, it's very hard to find it's the orientation video that was shown to new position is this is back in the eighties. It was done by an informed, Chel Pitchman, who was then a scientologist and then subsequently left. You know by the way, do you know one of the they don't cost scientologists in Scientology commercials? Do you know why? Why? Because they blow to,

let me leave and then they no longer want to be in the video or it becomes embarrassing to have someone speak any magic Leah Remini was in a commercial for Scientology, did never be able to use it again right right right, so they called they. They they it's sort of insurance because they want to be able to be. Use the they spend a lot of money on the commercial. They don't want to be embarrassed when the Scientologist choose the star of the commercial leave Scientology and says that they were brainwashed that's their actual reason, for what I'm told yeah how many of them left. Well, I may say tension rate they they're very good- to keep the data very close to the chest, so you I know that they have from they say by millions. I think they see forty million some vast amount worldwide. I know that in on Tony will take his blog he's cool. I think, there's an U S census days of the the the the props to just in the? U S in my

maybe twenty or thirty thousand. We should probably get that fact checked, but I believe I read that there are more people who identify as Jedi as their religion Then there are the main a jetta. I want just decided with a long process to become a jedi. Or can you just claim it take this long process, but it's very cheap. It's a good thing. Oh well, all the movies think I'm in. I just It's amazing to me that this exists. I understand that it exists. I it you intellectually, when I sit back and look at the the the the many many different religions and many many different ideologies that people subscribe to end the the vast amount of people out there that are searching for truth in an answer and end something to belong to even that, even though

All those things make sense to me, intellectually. I'm still fascinated, as I'm still so puzzled, that in twenty sixteen with the internet, with all the access to into information we have today, but that still exists it is so I'm on you look for. Did you want to do it will show you know? Is this going to fizzle out, but I think what they've done is they've kind of caught. Created a marketing juggernaut. That is, if not immune to, but at least highly resistant to any attempt to discredit to run. So I hope I read a thing. They said well, it's religion that sells secrets. Writes that sits. U s p it. You would want some you, you be pay more money to get the you know the more secret levels and the internet is kryptonite to that, because the internet is a is a is a machine for revealing secrets, yet Wikileaks and and what

you can google anything so so that will be Scientology's Waterloo will be the fact that we now have searchable data, but shows no signs of coming apart. You know that the numbers may not be high, but the amounts of revenue coming in and all of our huge from what I can tell, and I get the feeling that well, you just have to see how you know the amount that they're able to spend on advertising the number of new buildings that go up so, however small it may be. He has a huge punching power within the money from well. He is an interesting point. Are the first thing is that

it's it's structured, almost like a Mcdonald's so and in fact, interestingly, in nineteen fifty the year that DIA Netex was published was also the first year that Mcdonald's was established. That's pointed out, but I don't know if you ever rejected Reitmans book inside Scientology. It came out a year before Larry writes book going clear, but so is slightly thunder was stolen by going clear, but it's also an excellent book and a great primer. If you enjoyed going clear, I highly recommend inside Scientology and she points this out- that in one thousand nine hundred and fifty Mcdonald's was invented, and so was DIA, Netex so they basically kind of free is a franchise system in which they also to selling the they own. The property of the of the various buildings in which Scientology is old and then the license the materials, but they call

you, some of the franchisees, can lose money, but Scientology itself can't really lose money because they're just getting rents from the people who are who is selling the Scientology. Does that make sense the services but doesn't make sense that you get that much revenue from that. Well, no, they get. I can't take real stakeholders to take, so they have usual to reset the other part of it is that they, because it's a religion, the money is tax deductible, never like they don't pay taxes on it in essence, and so I think I think that means that it's very hard for them to lose money. It's a huge. You know it's a huge cushion against financial failure. Well, that was a really disturbing part of the document which showed how the came a tax exempt religion. The the the government essentially caved under the threat of massive amounts of lawsuits. Yes, yet they were basically the Scientologists found a way to pressure individual IRS employees to the point where the lives had become extremely hard, so

they can they settled we are was out not that I want to say when you get this right. Ninety two, I would say, but to to maybe ninety three. It's amazing that that's up held. I know, but then again all this I mean what the benchmark for being for having chargeable status is not that high look at the Clinton Foundation Right, the media, they're they're, all the people scrutinizing how what qualifies as a charge enterprise do not seem to be working, especially you're, working on top of that game. I so yeah. I think once that's in place. I think the other part of it is so you pay that one of the routes for finances you pay for services. You turn up. He spent. I want orbiting so I'll, give an old sing past package for three hundred dollars and you get in whatever

five sessions, but the other thing is they solicit donations and five or six times a year. They have a large events and that's the footage of Tom Cruise is. Is it one of these events and they cut their like the? huge. Hollywood star award ceremonies with the pack hundreds of Scientology's into an auditorium, and they both look quite impressive so to the outside of they look kinda grandiose in an impressive, but they are in essence occur, live infomercial events where everyone who's. That is then aggressively ridged, which means they grew their aggressively hits up for donations. Does that make sense yeah any time you see one of those events, all those people who were at the event before they can leave. Someone comes up to them and says: how committed to Scientology are you we would sincerely appreciate Nick

impression of your of your support and their guilt tripped into making a donation, a tax, deductible donation? And I'm sorry I know I'm rambling, but there's a lot of information, so they get huge amounts of money for that and that money then why What of the good things about that is that can never be revoked like if you leave So when the problems they had in the past, if you spend ten thousand dollars on credit, I'd say I love Scientology is to be amazing, and then you like one thousand dollars in, go your services, you, this isn't doing anything. I want to leave and then lost your money back and it's very hard for you to get your money back, where's the donations that have made it to something called the I a as in Association of Scientologists. You can't get those back once you leave. You know it's all make it very simple for you, this very rich scientologists who make large donations. Basically, this a crackle pop Duncan who's, a multi billionaire, who used donated literally tens of millions,

past I I mean a there's, a lot of actors, you I mean well Leah Remini, not six. One of the. Is one of the most famous detractors right person is a laugh right right until she was like one of his most famous supporters yeah yeah, but that's a that's weird because, like her turnaround was like that I I know you have a lot of respect that I mean I think, there's a lot of like this guy who was. I was talking about this pitch. The infomercial pitch man, who did the orientation video that was taken down from Youtube, is called Larry Anderson right and she I would I really wanted to interview him for off film, because I just thought the in video is so funny it's one of this. Is do you where they say he goes welcome to Scientology. You know you could well if you, if, at the end of this video you decide, this is not for you. That's fine you're welcome to leave just as you're free to jump off, throw yourself off a bridge.

Blow your brains out, so it's it's very over the top kind of I think just ludicrous, but he left I told you so they could show it anymore, but he left and most like most high profile defectors. He just didn't want anything more to do with it he's just like I'm done. And very often they cut the deal where they say fine. I told you will say that will let you do the X Y and Z, whether it's get some money back and speak to your people. Your friends and family was still in Scientology, but we don't want you speaking out And so then the defect will be like: okay, fine one, simple life.

Leah Remini to her credit has actually you know good going out there and absolutely made a mission to to coal amount. How far did she get? I don't know which I think was quite far most of the axes. I think ACT is the considered people of influence, and so they get a certain amount of services for free. That's the impression I have, and so I think the nothing they're encouraged to go up the bridge quite quickly. I had a neighborhood of scientologist and he wanted to buy a piece of property, and we had a discussion about this. How I found out he was scientologist, He said out of nowhere. You know we we start talking about this, he's like camping buying it, but right now my wife is about to go clear and echo. What's is a is a long time ago. It was that mean and then he starts expressing what it means and that. She's no longer going to be influenced by negative thoughts and is going to cost fifty thousand dollars and now holds pro

anymore now, probably is a 90s, but fifty thousand dollars for a ceremony where you no longer going to be influenced by negative thoughts, and then you find out actually footnote. Does this other thing you have to deal with you know and then there's another like fifteen levels? So yeah it's a funny, the funny one. Did you talk to Leah Remini? We approached it. You know we. I should explain that we took a specific approach we knew going into it. I had been just stating this idea for years and as I've been fascinated with Scientology, going back to the late 80s. When I was a student.

Then I remember ninety or ninety one. I took a tour around on the old one hundred like the exhibit there on Hollywood Boulevard and and had this weird feeling all of if you've ever gone and where you just think wow. It's like they took a person who was kind of an average Sci, Fi Writer and attempted to make him sound like he was the second coming of Jesus and it's everything is Spahn and it's good. It's just a weird feeling you we're, seeing a whole museum dedicated to someone who seems to have been a relatively unremarkable person. You know what I mean and so they're working extremely hard say he was one of the youngest ever Eagle Scout to ever qualify in the state of Montana, and he liked With- and I was at my dad- was an angel sleep that night. That's not that big a deal, and so then I remember half so I thought well. This is funny for ten minutes and then an hour later, when you're on this guided tour. I've had enough- and

I I so I really need to leave a hole. Where do you need to go? I what's so important and it's more important you see in the rest of it and I suddenly felt under pressure that uncomfortable feeling like a while and I had to pretend that I needed to be somewhere just to get out of the building anyway, so years go by and I think I'd love to program about it, and then I could never quite find the I approach them and they said dumb long story short we're not really interested. We, you know we they. They took me over to or the celebrities center they strung me along for a bit, but it was pretty clear quite quickly that they weren't going to. Let me in so a few more years went by- and I was approached by Hollywood producer called Simon Chinn, who who made a man on wire and searching for sugar man, so he is well credentialed and he's like you know. You should do something about Scientology. I gave him the truth about why I hadn't 'cause. They won't. Let me in and, as you know, my way of making documents. It is by invitation. You know, I make an approach and people say yes and they let me in or you're very polite

Yes and actually you know I've done whatever you know how big game, hunting or the Westboro Baptist Church all gurus in the in in India. But it's always I say like. Can we come in film? They say. Yes, we do it. So I I I just couldn't get my head run. How you make a film where the people don't want you to make the film as I knew they didn't and have it be still true to what I do in some way, and I didn't want it to be a kind of just poking them for the sake of it type of thing. Anyway, we decided that there was a way of doing it using reenactments, in which we took a sort of meta approach to the re enactments where at the whole process of costing and reenacting how you do Scientology using actors was filmed in. Otherwise we filmed costing a character to play Tom Cruise, costing an actor to play David Miscavage and role playing the different lines and used Ex Scientologist's to kind of

no direct. So they were like this is how this is, how you do it, and this is what Scientology is, and this was what it was like when I was in Scientology and re really part of it was knowing that once we did that in and around Hollywood that, because Hollywood is so central to Scientology, they would get wind of what we were doing and would start coming to us, so that be this wraparound of them and to this day to stop filming and it turns out they were making a documentary about me, making my thumb about Scientology. So then it's becomes sort of. When is that released January, it's out in the UK in October? January. Can you yours the one on you there one uhm. You know I think it'll come out. It's a great question. Uh! I'm surprised! It's not out yet. I think it will come out, probably in January item,

and what do you think it'll be about? I think it'll be a lot like what they have done to other journalists. They did want to give me they did one on Larry right, they do them on Ex Scientologists Smith, there've of sufficient kind of profile, it'll be a ten to fifteen minute thing. They're extract the photograph where I look like a dick, ugly or Ludacris any ill advised bit of publicity overdid. Where did when I was promoting a series, and I was like look goofy, they'll say like this. Is a serious journalist and then they'll take quotes from interviews out of context to make me sound like either a goofball or kind of malicious deceive.

And you know if you want to really see the DNA of Scientology. I offer the because occasionally I get called this mindset of like you know what. So, what is it? What what this is just another religion does not, it is known better or worse in other religions really and then walked something. You know you you know. Sometimes you can still We lose you go native slightly or you're on their websites. In your thing, come of this makes sense, but if you look at how they attack their end, these there so unlike other religions, certainly unlike Christianity for the most part, so official Scientology's pronouncements when they attack x members and journalists associate so sore tabloid in childhood. So malicious and nasty you really see into something deep about them. Their mindset, 'cause their viewers you mentioned- is that if you're a suppressive person, I someone someone who's attempting to hold Scientology back. Then you are fair game. Anything

they could do almost anything to try and put you out of business. Do you think that these documentaries, whether it's going clear, the book by Lawrence Wright or the other woman, was or the name for JANET right man, was of the power book inside Scientology? I all this data, this data, this accumulative data, is any of the members that are inside Scientology. They don't they don't ever examine it, no, no way it's it's it. It's considered and Theta, which is excellent, told you time it means into a belated data. I look at this is like and it to be explaining this stuff, like this yeah kind of I just like I said I was steeped in it for three years of absorbing all it was it your whole life for didn't know it was. It was just like it was, it will not constantly, but but you know you would spend a few days. Kind of hours would go by and the end of it. You were merging like if I learned anything all I know now is absurd turn who's that no use to anyone like and

data and but interpolated data energies. You know theater is daytons, are spirits. Data is spiritual, positive, spiritual, Angie, but Inter Belated is bad, so it's basically an theater. It's kind of bad for your in gee? I think so. It's ten theater for you to be in Scientology and it could be exposed to anything negative. Anything critical of Scientology, so they're encouraged to be off the internet and to be off don't consume. Anything you think might be critical. They are encouraged to be off the internet wow. Well, I should say I should take that applies to within the C oak in the in the circle of Scientology, and I don't really explain that it was a really important distinction, because why do I do I'm absurdly certain that this plenty of extremely nice well adjusted scientologist?

We consider themselves Scientology. My ex neighbor yeah is a really nice guy, but he was and and I'm sure, you'll everything I hear about back the musician. Is that he's a nice guy and I'm you know, I'm sure Giovanni Ribisi isn't is a nice guy, Eisen Yeah! Really. You didn't know that bad guys in yeah who and Jenna Elfman I mean she makes sense, really Juliette, Lewis yeah. I bet she's nice. I bet she's, very nice. She and I have gone back and forth. We've talked to each other through messages on twitter yeah. I did get her in target and any Masterson that 70s show yeah. We move and Jason Lee. I think I think he might be algorithm. No, I mean my name is Elle yeah that guys in yeah man, you didn't spend very long down the rabbit, hole, well. My rabbit hole was not limit. I try to avoid any rabbit hole that involve celebrities but science.

Allergy is predicated on one thing: L Ron Hubbard got right was the idea that if you get celebrities in then you are You've got a kind of golden ticket reaching the masses yeah. I jokingly thought about joining when I first came here was like maybe that's the move, just get it become a scientologist. You could make a documentary about Scientology. That would be totally different because, actually maybe we've blown it by I'm talking about it, but if you'd gone undercover decided, I don't think they would listen. They would probably fucking hate me. Well, it depends What you've got out that it's, not a documentary maker, either hello. I don't have that sort of attention span that you have you could you could go, you could have gone on to cover and they were. You would have been such a great scalp for them they would have. Absolutely because when was the last time you heard of an established celebrity actor joining joining, like I mean, can you imagine if so maybe they can bring us what else? When will Smith? There was a sniff that he might be going that way and and it went to and it didn't pan out, but

that was, I believe, and they were trying to is in the room of the David Beckham might be flirting with I mean none of these things were born ounce well with what they could do for you. If you were a David, Beckham or maybe even for me, is they could act as like a gang mmhm, it's sort of like a your pussy carver covers your back. Absolutely I think there'd be, and when I was doing the I went in a noisily undercover, but by went in for a who's in the film I just to sort of keep myself grounded to keep it all real. You know 'cause one of the challenges with when you're not exposed you're, not actually having day to day contact with the subject you're, covering it's very easy to slip into the US and them mentality of your own and like goose Gary Scientology. To that bad, and actually you know, they're, not they're good people, many of them,

so I wanted to make them real and I went along to Scientology organ just sort of chatted to some people. Until you know, I'm make documentaries and think I'm interested in this subject. You know: what's it all about and they're, really did one of the things they do is a fairly hard sell, but you got the impression that they were one hundred percent kind of take your money, No, I do not accept you, they would take your money and but they would absolutely, I think, right on it. I don't know I kind of lost confidence, I was going to one hundred percent could be have your back and be your game, but I don't know if I really do have that sense? I think if you, if they if they knew you were celebrity if they thought you were, they would really go to that. You would get spell treatment. I was in San Diego and I was filming that vision showing at had a few hours downtime and they had one of these booths set up where you would go over there and hold on to the bills? Can

yes, the meter- and I did all that- how long did you How many sessions did you do just one just one while there and it was pretty good Wasn'T- I boring- was the guided the guy? who I got was very unenthusiastic he's just it seem? something they required him you're supposed to be unenthusiastic, enthusiast. Well, on the eve is this a script for how it's called being in order to when you, when someone orders, your innocence, being the therapist, they have a script they have to it's called. They have to sit there comfortably but day on not supposed to show any emotion when when there were, you know, do it publicly yeah holding on to this thing and ask me questions you reading the needle in saying yes, it is and to say that is there a prior or something that is a whole school they sort of saying did you have to say like I had back pain and then the light? Would you? How would you, member what road you went down with your with what you saying, hardly just remember, thinking this guy dying therapist, nothing that special yeah

I seemed like they were forcing him to do it didn't seem like this is something he was interested in is just like really not interested in what he was doing net seem like a volunteer like interesting. I mean if on the when the fourteen is supposed to be somewhat blank. A big thing in Scientology is some sort of being comfortable in yourself and not like learning how to stare at someone at this, a drill that we do in the film where you have to sit and stare at some without saying anything literally for like minutes, if not ours, this site is such a powerful tool, because his life is all about. I'm I'm on on embarrassed, simple. You know I'm gonna, I'm gonna knock on their own, any sort of sense of what could, despite just like I'm impermeable, to any kind of social influence. You You can put on me right. It's one of the paradoxes of being converted controlling religious movie, because so much of it is about controlling yourself do mean

and not allowing other people's thoughts are negative action to control. You control you and that she had a big thing as well, and one of the Things Tom Cruise talks about when he's in video is Pts. Sp confronting shattering suppression. I think I said the common acronym right he's the he's shot. He thought you would need one. You see. He says that one of the best things he learned in Scientology was how to confront and shot a suppression right, so in time you see him in an interview, a few of them on Youtube. Where he's been, he thinks he's getting a cheeky question see he kind of gets a steely look where it's a sort of it's not easy adversary, it's just like no you're out, but in and and we're not in that Lauer Interview yeah, which is devastating for his career in the short term he recovered from it. But there was a window into madness into,

but he's really all about. When you know that's the scary part, I mean as much as I say like this is a big chunk of it feels come valid, a normal, maybe even therapeutic, but when you tip into thinking that you were the only ones that you have the you were the authority on mental illness and that's dangerous in an individual issues with people that you have not diagnosed, you don't have any medical training whatsoever. You don't know what their specific neurochemistry is. You don't know effect of the medication and whether it's enhancing or hurting them, and you and you just have this blanket view of psychiatry. That was an issue that L Ron Hubbard had in. If you go down sunset yeah, I think it's sunset on some Yeah, that's right! High tree kills it so I country the industry of death, yeah, that's a fun, often and that's one of their so

enters right. Yeah. If you go in there, they'll call in the c c h all Citizens Commission, on human rights. When the you know and here's my issue with that, I think prescription drugs are overprescribed. I think there's a real argument that there's a lot of people that are on antidepressants it that shouldn't be on anti depressants. I think there's a lot of nap. Turn is one of them being exercised, one of them being in Hansen, your standing in life in terms of like what you do for a living or where you live, or you know the people that you hang out with all those things can affect the way you feel and that can be interpreted as depression. There's a lot of I mean, there's a reason if your life is shit, if all the aspects of, The you feel bad. The solution is not a pill right. So in some ways, they've got something to say that makes up some sort of sense. Will that, but and in a weird way, that's the dangerous part, because you need to set its with Scientology into sex with a totally valid social critique right. The

who is this? If you are, if you someone who's, really psychotic and it's not it's not a medic cation induced psychosis psychosis is a real medical phenomenon and Scientology is not going to take them on. If you go to Scientology, you say I'm interested in Scientology. I've had a couple of psychotic breaks, psychotic breaks, but I you could help me help they're not going to say, oh, come with us what they'll they'll run a mile from you, so they critiquing people who they have no intention of helping themselves, oh wow, yeah and if you say I, and by the way I view some met in the past. I was medicated for my psychosis they'll say well that disqualifies you from tree.

When I went to my one, they said if you put forms of intervention, if you had in the past, have you done any sort of psychiatry? If you had any problems like that- and I said well, no, but I've had you know a little bit of therapy over the years as a what. Well, what have you done? I said I did a few sessions of Us C B. T cognitive, behavior therapies could bog standard talking about. You know problems such things. You could do differently. The woman's I Ok, just give me five minutes. Ok and she left the room to check whether that disqualified me and came back so yeah. That's not a problem. Ok, let's carry on, but if you be on some sort of medication said I was on the Zyprexa for ten years, because I had an episode when I thought I was a poached egg for a few weeks that she would have set she would have said now. Well, you know good luck with that and don't let the door hit you on the way out. Wow so they're, not interested in treating people that have had treatment. No, that's weird! No! They there they'll say good. You know to a tough break on this,

live good luck in they really would we should, but I'm sure that's the case. Man that's fast and there's an entry. If you want to read it, we don't go into this in the documentary, but if you you can read off on on the internet, about cases where there's been people who had mental illness either within Scientology, I mean the preps, the most famous scandal within Scientology for the most notorious to Scientology watches. Who is the case of LISA Mcpherson? Do you know about her she's, the one that died, yeah she's, a hug, it she's done in detail in Inside Scientology, in the JANET Reitman book she was paid up, Scientologist took it very, very seriously, a young woman, maybe thirty, and she had a psychotic episode in Florida and instead of being taken for a given bed Karen facility, she was

can by scientologists from hospital and more or less sequestered, in a hotel for a week or maybe longer and and died in the hands of the Scientology and what what was the cause of death? I believe it was dehydration. We should double check on that. Wow, that's a rough way to go. Yeah and she'd been having you know, total psychotic break. She was, I think, attacking people in the attempted to get up. Take care all holding her hostage depending on how you define it, and you know there was a whole script that Hubbard had for dealing with in psychosis, but I don't think it was. You know medically supported. It was basically involved, ignoring them and keep them secluded kind of locking them in a room. Now I saw an interview with you. We were talking about someone who used to be a former scientologist, a woman. She

Well, she was in a former scientologist. She had gone, undercut, we're sort of investigate them and you were talking about the auditing having a positive benefit. Yes, I think it probably does I mean I think any kind of but on on you yeah, I mean the cool I did. I only did one session, and that was with You're, the main guy in the film is it's good Marty Rothman and he was in there's a sense in which the film is as much about him as it is about Scientology. He was, he was a mister fix. It within Scientology was the number two to David Miscavige David Miscavige is the guy who took over nineteen. Eighty six will there be as from L Ron Hubbard and has been running it ever since he's an unaccountable leader who he isn't in essence the Pope of Scientology, and there are many allegations of him being physically abusive towards his followers. Mony Rothman was his right hand, man for many years, multi rust, but left in two thousand and four or there abouts, and he was so he saw

of our deep throat in the film, but he also cops to the fact that when he was in Scientology, he was involved in all kinds of deep this covert activity involving private investigators, destruction of documents and dumb also certain amount of physical violence himself which he has apologized for, and so he it becomes a sort of examination of him and his ability to the fact that he's been seduced by this thing and it's still in certain ways. It's still in him. You know you can buy it by almost by definition You can't be in something that long and that Leah Remini was a celebrity parishioner right. She was. She was going around the Celebra, said she was doing Scientology, but she was not in the Seahawk. The sea org is that clergy is the intersect. Is the difference between someone who goes to a catholic church. A few times a year right and eats communion and thinks praise a future that spray.

Now you can be a scientologist in that way, right which may be your neighbor was, but if you're in the sea or it's somewhere between being in the Vatican and being a monk, you take a bow of poverty. You volunteer, you think, about poverty get paid like below minimum wage. Tiny amounts you leading a kind of spartan existence to save the planet. You sign a contract for forty billion years or something I think it is actually because it supposed to cover all your future lifetimes. So when you come back you're still in the Seahawk, in fact there theorem Logan, is something I vein Optimus or whatever. The lesson is it's: we come back, meaning that we come back in future lifetimes. We still going to be in the sea org anyway, so it's really put to get the distinction, because we, you know you, I wouldn't want people to have the everyone in Scientology is sort of going around in a uniform marching around on a vow of poverty. That's just the c!

all guys and most of them live down. Many of them live down in Hemet, outside LA and and that's where we see him it's outside this, if you could could towards palm springs. Basically, it's in the desert, that's real yeah, there's a base down, although they have some giant center down there they're going to start producing movies right. Well that there's a center in Hollywood that they report yeah, that just in fact not just bought they just refurb, didn't have opened it and they're going to open it. Which is his only because they had a. There is a fifty million dollar tv studio movie and tv studio complex in Hollywood, just open that, but they have a complex in him it as well. It's all, so I don't know why they need another one. They like bind shit. Apparently at one point in time they were the number two real estate holders in LOS Angelus. Well, that yeah yeah It's amazing sugar, normal. Maybe Hollywood is not jewish, maybe maybe I don't know but but but you d on, but I think a lot so that is to do with someone explain this to me. One:

the rules about a nonprofit or about being religion and the religious status is they cannot hoard their income like money that comes in. Has to be spent otherwise there in violation of their I'm charitable status. So this is what I did. Someone just talk with the other, so in other words it is in because they have to kind of keep buying buildings, because I need to be cash outflow. We didn't make sense right, yeah, that's totally understandable, yeah that makes sense and and then yeah it's so so, but but the so this time on the rest, open, who sort of my guide through Scientology and he's a sneezing guy and Marty was for how long I want to say twenty four maybe with twenty seven years, but I think he said twenty seven years he had a nice alphadon in the nicer he uniform He got the uniform. He was holding ropes around the shoulder know what I'll say this about him. You know if you were in it and you're up at the top echelons as he was. You are

some kind of crazy, Sci FI adventure. You know if you think about it, and I think it's real lenient. Your areas like that you will live while on a jet on a reality. You know look at that real because across the chest, you're saving planets. What is his medals for liberals? Metals, no, the the the thing that might be some of them photo shops or yeah, Katie idea what that might not be some of them add metals just to make fun of It might be a real one. I don't know, but the one that was above it seems real right now. Look at that one! That's real! Now, when it doesn't look like that now, 'cause he's thirty How amazing is it that they give them military medals? I mean that low just like no different. Want to general would have yeah. What I mean is beautiful thing in a way of yeah I mean is it? Is it is an exciting live they the they probably wouldn't be doing the dishes in that outfit like that, especially cation, special okay,

an I'm sure he would get special treatment, I'm sure being in the number. Two guy must bend well, amazingly, probably know because basically, there's only really a number one, which is David Miscavage, and then it's just everyone else. Do it well Tom Cruise and then later at Tom, this kind of number one right wells right out there. No because I she does it. Do you remember in in an elder in Numb Lawrence Wright's book, that's a bit where Tom Cruise explains, I think maybe two dozen need Boniadi talk his girlfriend at the time he said, Don't you like he's annoyed with his girlfriend? This is after it split up from Shelby Cruise, no, the one before

the Australian brought. You know who I mean, click thank who's who, by the way she wasn't considered mess because her father was a psychiatrist. I believe anyway, so so so she was. He went out with a woman who doesn't in Boniadi for a while- and this is section in going clear where they talk about. I think he missed coverage came round for dinner or something and it was fun and no, I think it was not into his goal for the time was having trouble x, understanding what Miscavige was saying, because he speaks quite fost and dumb. She will speak to shows out what you, what what are you saying Tom Cruise, is really upset and and said: don't you get it this l or h? then, there's David, Miss get GOP is what they called in their cob and then there's me you're doing a God I'm good Tom cruise impression it's just getting to that. You get this elridge. Then there clb and then there's me, don't get don't you

your clip, your glad man Clement, your that's a very good impression, going to be. You know what you feel and what we're saying help to like. I don't think I need science which, if like of course a macron nitro yeah two hundred seventy Milligrams has given me a lot. It's some, no t h, I'm on t fine right now. We do know morning funders. I think I had that he makes you mix this caveman. Coffee with some emulsified MCT oil in an ice coffee. So I every morning what is the most qualified? It's you too will that you can mix very easily with cold beverages or is it a c t oil in medium chain, triglycerides oil? It's the most nutritious aspects of coconut oil that are blended together. It's the spin in a centrifuge extract. The did we just established will sorry you can get it anywhere. Oil is readily available at any any sort of hell,

food store and a lot of route Erawan in whole foods in those type places Cara. Never even heard of it. Do you know of coconut all right, yeah, it's it's their their healthy fats, they're, really good for your brain, good, stuff, yeah! So so good morning, thunder the point being we are so many tension. Yeah one went off jewelry great. What is he'll be here, chairman of the Board of C. A b ought to h r C opened and then there's me and then there's clip then that your claim, then this Matt Lauer and then there's John Travolta just below met. Now this only they have quite dim view of John Travolta within science. Wow. That's why this is such this is called about of what is it I think massage therapy to to? I don't know how long he runs until that's allegedly cut through an electricity and then allegedly they have a bad view of them. I'm just part of everything, nine, a lot of what I'm saying it's based on you know once he blew once he left Marty Rathbun spilled his guts,

the internet in all in the name you know in. In order to get you let people know what was going on and he kind of he was the biggest thing I would say in these sort of, in terms of exposing son, told you what it is. Probably in the morning, probably in the history of Scientology Jon travels, wife was on fear factor. I got to meet John Travolta X. His wife is in the finals she lost Coolio, who was by the way you Talk about a guy who performs very well under the influence of marijuana. Coolio might be at the top. My list right right up there with Joey Diaz Cooley, so they would open up his trailer and it was like a Cheech and Chong movie. It was hilarious and he would go out there. And he would perform these stunts just high. As a kite I mean just gone, could you look in his eyes? They were just glue, used over and he would perform flawlessly and the last not involved balances his balance thing and a conversation with him before we did it, and I was

unfortunately stone cold sober at the time. I believe and Coolio was he's like I've done this million times in a million different lives in other universes may. Do it right now or get after it. Good luck to you, but John traveled, his wife. What is her name again, Kelly Kelly she's, very, very nice, very nice, and very so normal conversations with her and and she even sent me a gift. There was some sort of protein powder that she was drinking some some health drink that she was drinking. I asked her about it and she said you know give me your address I'll, have some sent to you and this lunch, so she sent some to the studio. I believe, she very nice sure Greta Van Susteren is a scientist fuck here, that's the one that surprises me. Isn't she a journalist, I would think yeah. So would a Fox news. Yes, I shall issue on the

should ring tone scale or not yeah. How will she be? Maybe this maybe there's an exception. Well I met hers once as well. She seems very nice as well do something about George Carlin, I'm sure she is nines and I'm you know I'm sure you can be. I mean not to sound like a broken right. Well again, my neighbor, who my former neighbor many years ago, was a very nice guy and a lot of scientologists inside of Hollywood and they all have this actor thing going on, which is like to believe that they are as nice as they're pretending to me, but I'm not sure you know that act, three things like yes, I know I know I know one of my early experiences when I was talking to a scientologist when I was trying to first negotiate access to the church back in two thousand and three was I'd, sent her some

documentaries that I've done so. This is who I am and is what I do and she was on the phone. She said Tom yeah. I got the d v D's and with each and she started laughing in the act of talking about like a fake, laugh yeah. And also that didn't outside that didn't feel quite real yeah later on. Another person who is a scientologist did the same thing. When I saw the thing you do on Oh, that is a desert pet peeve of mine, so wow, that is a giant. Maybe that's part of what they do is sort of external kind of weird love bombing. I don't know. Maybe that was just incidents will make sense because they're trying to be influential and they're trying to they're they're trying to be charming, yeah right If I find a lot of the scientologists that I've met, that are actors they're the term is one of things you hear about Tom Cruise. Looks you in the eye. He talks to remember your name yeah, you know. Well, that's true. I mean they drill. As I said, they drill on looking people in the all.

But, let's just assume that that's his real behavior pattern. Now it's a very good behavior by this yeah. It's very nice, I'm in favor of positivity, although I think the world needs negative people, but I think there needs to be some. Why disturb you but wait a minute, but the whole part of the? Balaji of life is to yeah yeah If everyone was positive, then I mean it would be a little too much. Well would be very strange if, with the world did become enlightened like what, if that, some farmers who company device some pill that eliminates all the negative aspects of humanity. So we ought to start taking it yeah I mean look how many people brush their teeth, pretty much every what? If everybody, sir doing whatever this is this new thing which eliminated became prevalent throughout the world, eliminate like vaccinations, pretty much I would I would have high. Ninety percent of the western world is the say every now, and then I meet some kid who had hippie parents and they you know

apple cider, vinegar, they never vaccinated and there's there's a few of those exists, but for the most part most people are vaccinated to prevent against diseases if we came up with some sort of a vaccination to prevent the more disgusting aspects of human beings, negative behavior aggression, meanness very curious, very curious as to how that would play out they're, not that would diminish

the ambition and progress and but who knows? Yes, I think it was yeah. I thought you said the Yin and the Yang, I think, Scientology a spies to be that you know, then I think the danger of it is it because it would best certain similarities to a sort of almost fascist vision. I think I mean I think that there was an overlap that you're the cult of health, the couple to glowing, smiling beacons of of health and humanity marching up and down, and actually it's our ability to rub, along with difficult characters in an

to sort of embrace the ugly side. Is I'm calling to find exactly what it is, but I feel that that's an important dimension of life. Well, it certainly seems to be that there's a there's, a dynamic that plays out between human beings and that we learn not just from the positives, but also from the negatives, and I I learned a lot from other people's negative be your, how to never be like that myself without having to make those same mistakes, also learn from my own six of shore, but when we see your all things in the news and negative things. I think that does sort of reinforce how four, You are the you're not experiencing those horrible things and that there is some sort of an understanding of the the worst aspects of people where it it Harden's your your spectrum of Australasia, three by also think that the many of my favorite rises, you would probably define in some sense as well, walking the negative side of life. You want to think about how

Thompson hunted Topsail, William Burroughs, or you know, for me, Philip Roth, if you like you, don't you do you know to to talk about? You have see the most kind, contemptible and disgusting in pulses. We feel Kowski yeah, that's absolute! The Rambo! You know the french poet, the you you. This is sort of look. This is who we are. This is the stuff of life yeah in a Reddit couple, and I think I'm suspicious of anything the the the pathology choices it too much, and you know what that's sorts of from you know that you know which Scientology doesn't, but it is it does your reactive mind right now functioning part of your mind. It's a pseudo scientific thing where it's actually TMZ, I'm not a Christian, but it's sort of embraces the fact that it's just your human side. You know your human societies is awfully and twisted, and sexual and and actually you need to embrace of so high hi being well.

I think most religions are ideologies that are trying to promote some sort of advancement. They look to the past into the horrific nature of animal behavior, the the the tooth, Fang and claw of the wild and the recognition that somehow or another we've emerge from that and that we aspire to do better. And then then we know that in our own lives I mean, if you look at your own life as a microcosm, you you've you've sort of figured out what you've done wrong. Hopefully, and have advanced past those days of youth and foolish behavior in you now wiser, more educate. Person. You seek to continue to advance and continue do better. So it's sort of like it's all, analogous it'll, all sort of ties in together now, when people go too hard with that, when people too

too hard with eliminating the bad behavior, always wonder if, like L, RON Hubbard himself, if he was you know when he, when we talk about I'm self, diagnosing and self treating and that's what they're doing as well as like. Like did you know that, like is an old expression that I well there's an old thing that you see with women that are specified with this sexually loose that they always like to point the at other girls that are sexually loose. It's like one of the first in stations that girl might be a slut. Is that she likes to point out other girls and and that's that's a real common thing and I think, that way the things that annoy you the most about yourself. You tend to highlight those aspects in you when you discuss human beings or other people that your take you I'm sure there's something in that

again they say. Yes, my dad likes to quote there's a there's, a bulgarian philosopher, run writer device connect Hughes had an aphorism that the thieves have is the fear of thieves, so the we sort of projector qualities to others, and it fills us with anxiety, shorter. They may be that to go to your the other point of the you know, it would be wonderful to feel that we advance through life acquiring wisdom. I don't know, That's necessarily the case, and what strikes me about Hubbard is the you know the merit that you see in Scientology the bits that feel workable, makes sense, seem to have come out fairly early on and then later on, the stuff he was coming out. It was more and more outlandish. Whatever therapies he was evolving when it went to go t levels, it was really getting properly out there liar yeah

I mean whether that maybe he was spiraling out. I mean those allegations that he was fully mentally ill, at least for episodes towards the end of his life and dumb voice. A great deal of time. The sea org was kind of concocted because he had to be in the oceans. He had to be first of all away from America, so he went. He talked to the sea so they didn't get prosecuted. Basically, as I understand it, yes, and so he had sort of ocean going religion where they were can traveling around and them for a while. He was in England in then for a while, he was in what was then Rhodesia. What is now Zimbabwe? Sort of trying to find a nice like find counter new frontier that he could more or less make for his own kind of claim for science

Balaji, but then, even when he came back, he was so caught up in lawsuits in the last ten or fifteen years of his life. People pursuing him for money because they felt Scientology had made them psychotic or they just thought it was fraudulent or that they want and their money back he had to disappear and was living in seclusion more or less hiding out, while money was kind of shuttled back and forth to him, and that's why I say I said at the beginning of the problem with Scientology is an overabundance of material. You probably saw the master right. The Paul Thomas Anderson Film, I fell asleep yeah, what's in a hotel room in a past, it's moments, but there's so many weird to stories within Scientology and the masters loosely based on top. I would say it's fairly closely based on aspects of L Ron, Hubbard, India. I mean what was that. Is that public I mean if the acknowledge that I think he had a screening for Tom Cruise

I'm thinking publicly said it wasn't, based on L Ron, Hubbard and what it dubs. I think Tom said. I don't know, Your clip do hang out their own. Do you hear about Trump? Everyone seems to say is a good guy like you meet him, he's very focused, very attentive I've heard several things, one that is not. As short as everybody says, a lot of people want to see is like five foot. Two apparently is five foot nine sort of hurt, but who knows it could be wearing some funky stuff in his shoes. That is very friendly. That he's very, very focused, very intense, very, very charming, very care. Semantic very smart, and seems to be genuinely interested in what you have to yeah the I mean I've heard the same thing if you and what was your line on if we, if you, if Tom Cruise, is interviewed on a chat, so you feel he should be asked about Scientology that you could ask about whatever

Chat shows, as you put 'em they're, pretty much bullshit anyway, because what they really are. As you have a seven minute chunk, we supposed to be promoting some movie about a super that fucking repair close down from the ceiling and gets passed lasers, and that's I mean that's or the other. I think he's a great actor. I love that movie was the tomorrow as it was called. I love them and you know was it. Was this the time travel one, my love time closer, look Groundhog day, yeah meets mission, impossible yeah meets Alien, it's a great movie. I really enjoyed it. I think he's a great actor and I think you have to be fucking crazy to be a great actor. I really good invention, you know what was nice and that was that he started out like in that movie as a kind of Non Tom cruise character to remember he's kind of cowardly and slightly weak and he learns in the cause of the movie to become Tom cruise. Where is and it that refreshing after seeing so many kind of cruise as Ubermensch

film, which, by the way, I think is part of Scientology as Well- is that he doesn't want to take on roles that are and Theta in other see what one of these I was members of the Seahawk who are taking this vow of poverty lived extremely abstemious, cloistered lives, and they're not allowed to go to the movies for the most part, except when a Tom cruise movie comes out. So you know it better, have a positive, uplifting message. Oh that's interesting yeah, so they would literally be bust. I was told to the cinemas to watch the Matternet before Would the early are they held back while the previews are playing? It's a good question. I would imagine that, have to be well. They maybe they give. Would you think would be the worst thing they could see in probably a preview from my yeah. That would be good. They would how ironic their eyes would drop out of the yeah, but I think that's one of the issues they have with John Travolta as well. Is that he's playing a heroin addict

pulp fiction. That makes sense. I mean he really embraces. Some very bizarre rolls yeah. He was in dragon um hairspray. They probably didn't love that do yeah he's very good, though it's very good, but do you love chocolate great time? I do I'd, love them I think it's a great app so good and do you feel like we've, been on such a journey with him from Vinnie Barbarino he's like he's a legend he's a fascinating character and I met him as well when his wife was on the show news very nice, but it was that thing. You know where he's like really engaging. Looks you in the eyes very present. You know you think he's gay is that that will people say that he's gay? I don't know I don't know. I have zero problem with people being gay, but I do have a little bit of a problem with someone who's, not gay, pretends that there or someone is gay rather well. That would be real problem. Someone is not game for 10s are gay, that's odd, but that's something like if you're do gay stuff, you're just gay,

like, even if you're, not gay- and you pretend- and you like you, start dating guys like I'm, not even gay, but I'm not trick these dudes. I news for you pal yeah yeah. It could happen. It's You know it's an unfortunate accident, pretending not easy pretending not to be gay, allegedly that's! The word The is allegedly these definitely not out. So if you this gay he's pretending to be straight, but there's photos him kissing men- and you know, there's allegedly these massage therapist that have claimed that he tried to have sex with them. I don't know if there only truth or if they're, just exploiting a possibility. Does that make you gay? If you have sex with a man, it definitely helps this year in prison, yeah and even then you just gave for the stay right. Exactly all you know, I don't. I just think it's an on an aspect of our society that- and this is a reality if Tom Cruise is gay, it would

be a very smart business move for him with his business to stay in the closet. Because he's a leading man and he's a leading man that has love affairs in these movies with women and you I cannot do that if you're gay, it's one of the weird things about being gay person, even in today's liberated and a very progressive society, that a woman can be gay and she can play a straight woman in a movie because no one cares like. If a guy meets a girl and she's beautiful, but she's been gay or whole life and he turns around and all of a sudden, she's heterosexual, and then he winds up marrying and having children with her everybody. We got our year, I like men, get excited, but if a woman, it's a guy who's, been just blowing dudes for the path twenty years, then all sudden decides he's not gay anymore. They're, not excited about that. They like, are you sure, you're, not gay, like I don't even know how I feel about this. It's we don't accept a gay person, yet at least

playing a straight man who is a leading man in a movie? I don't think there's anyone has been able to pull that off. Do do you how's your dude he's he's be played like a womanizer and some sit com, but nobody's finance ownership, Sean Michael Patrick Golden Arches, Neil Patrick Harris Hill Country, yeah, it's an interesting and I think one of the allegations about Scientology always used to be that you spill your secrets in order to which is like confession, and then suddenly they're kept in a locked vault, and if you leave, they become public and there's a sort of a tacit, black male going on. So whether that's really happening now. I don't know that may have happened.

Pasta village, where there is an issue with them going after detractors and people that leave, because it doesn't really exist in other organizations or or other religions. So go perfect example of another religion that was most obviously created by a con. Man is Mormonism Joseph Smith. It was fourteen years old when he claimed to find golden tablets that were the LOS work of Jesus and then only he could read them because he had a magic, seer stone. It's a ludicrous story is a story. That's created in one thousand, eight hundred and twenty. It's a chalupa, true story that you know uh out of people when they find out about it. The legal way way way hold on like people, people lose like they become Mormon and then they get deep into it and they find out the roots of this and they go wait a minute. What the fuck I, by the way, it's that's that not Scientology. That Mormonism is the fastest growing religion in

I wonder: well, they're nice people there's a thing. It seemed very nice. There mean very nice, whatever use it against Mitt Romney. I'm glad he's not the president, but whenever I would see him with his family, I thought. Well, you know why can't our family be a bit more like family. I am not glad he's not running for president right now. I think he's a bet, your choice, and I was shocked that he wasn't willing to oppose Donald trump 'cause. I think that that would be a fucking easy run for people that were conservative that were uncomfortable with this Trump character and all is fucking, loose dialogue and all the crazy shit that he says. I don't think so. I think what I think what Trump has is what why he's proved so so durable and pop is just this absolute I'm different. I'm are everything, yes, the establishment. I think that's exactly what Romney doesn't have the consummate insider. He

some. He slid his establishment, Washington, all the rest of it and and Trump seemed, is a kind of cave men. Yeah he's a weird guy, so that was the you know the people out there, but the White Collar Blue collar kind of white Americans on the front porch see trump and they think yeah that guy's, my god. Well, the embrace the strong man yeah strong man doesn't give a you says crazy things to talk about the biggest yeah I mean he did that I mean the the run up to becoming the republican nominee was one of the most embarrassing times ever for the Republican Party, because you had all the fools dancing around this strongman wrong man who Robo candidates, almost literally in the case of Rubio yeah, was gonna malfunctioning with his it's going to sound bite algorithm, was glitching, so yeah coming out with the same sound bite within ten seconds, but all these rogue dates, and then someone who seems like a kind of visceral flesh,

blood human on stage and who, moreover, when he said stupid crazy stuff, did not then hit the trail to put to apologize. He would just keep saying We had things like you know what he's showing the media for the all game that it is yes because he's I'm not going to do that. If, if I'm, who so sorry, I said that where I and also the old cliche about who would you want to have a beer with which you want to have a beer with Romney Postal Rumley, probably doesn't drink and then and and Trump? Actually, you would probably enjoy that kind of weird ludicrous, just peering at him with entertaining in itself. Did you ever see the picture that he put up on Instagram with him in Trump Tower eating a taco bowl? This was, after all, all the crazy remarks that had said about Mexico and Mexicans coming over here and raping, and I talked to the President, Mexico who's going to pay for that wall. You know we're not going pay that well yeah. Well, the wall got ten foot higher, everybody starts cheering and then

takes a photo on Instagram of him, smiling eating a taco. Bald look at this at Trump Tower and it says, he's got the thumbs up is- is taco bone. It said something about like I love hispanics happy. Cinco Tamayo, but but but though the best taco bowls are made in Trump Tower Grill, and then he also said I love Hispanics like, but let's see, if you can find the actual input seal point order, actual point this 'cause this and I love Hispanics fucking crazy, fucking, crazy. I mean I saw that I'm, like ok, we're being trolled and look at the likes. Look at the retweets and the likes forty two thousand re tweets forty four speak out. He'll he'll say something crazy. Then it's five hundred and ten minutes later he'll say you'll see something contradictory. Well, it's fun for us, it's fun for us interesting! It's fun for us

Also he doesn't necessarily represent for a lot. People he doesn't like one of these, a mom that Romney represents, is problematic for people is that not only is his father a Mormon. Not only is it from but from one of the most bizarre sex of Mormons, where they left the United States, so they can have multiple wives who run family yeah yeah. No, no! No! No! So why in Massachusetts, let me hook you up. Romney family. Is it LDS? No, I don't know what the fuck it is, but there was a vice piece on it's a fascinating piece. There. They all live in Mexico, Romney's, family I know who you mean they moved to Mexico before Romney's dad was born. Romney's dad was not born in the United States. He was born in Mexico, an when in the United States, made polygamy illegal in the 1800s, and they have cars, so people like well, who gives a shit if, in the United States or Mexico, we're still riding horses, and

Bang are nine. Wives was just go over there. Yes, so they didn't want to give up the polygamy aspect of the religion, so they just went south to Mexico, which was not that much different than the United States back. Then then we and cars were invented in the United States really exploded in became much more prosperous than Mexico. Then all only got even crazier. Well, they get involved. In the drug war, the drug war there were there, was drug cartel people, kidnapping people in the Romney family and the other Mormons that are living down there. So they started like they had armed guards on century. Twenty four hours means like a scene from the walking dead they're all standing there with high powered rifle is talking when right now, so Romney's family is still down this. Yes, oh it's amazing right now what Romney was born United States, it's the Mexican Mormon WAR and it's a vice series, and it is wonderful because this is something that, for whatever reason was not

we discussed during the campaign trail. I think they tried to keep this because I think they it would be incredibly damaging to the Republican Party, because this guy is the front runner for the Republicans, and I don't know who the fuck on the the democratic side agreed to not really get into this, but that I mean there not just a part of a cult are part of a gun, toting, polygamous cult that has an armed compound in Mexico. How do I know this? Well, that's why I'm going to get my people on it. Romney's dad wanted to be president, but could not run for president because he was born in Mexico. He came out of his mother's body in the wrong patch dirt, so we did not allow him to run our great nation. That's not it! It's made, you become a senator. Ah I do not remember he was involved in politics in some way TED Cruz was born. Canada is a row. Yes, yes, so did they change the rules? Thirty, Canadian he's not one of us to love Canadians K. Did they change the rules?

No because he has dual citizenship because his mother was so can be born. Yes, like my friend Brian was born the Philippines, but America 'cause. He was born to be afraid. He was going to be. I mean yeah, but you can be president and not born in the US. In my book, no because he was not given the God given right to be born the right patch dirt, so fuck him ' to my book but constitution. Well, there was something that Donald Trump is bringing up well by the way people do forget conveniently the Donald Trump was one of the primary birthers. He was of the biggest proponents of the idea that Obama was not born in America that he was born in Kenya. You remember that It was a big issue. Big time huge he was, he still is propounding, absolutely fringe conspiracy, nut beliefs about you know. He said that Obama founded ISIS

right at a rally in Florida that he's fat I sounded always is that he would he he that are out on my head started icing, but did he decide to say this at a rally in Florida, or did Obama found ISIS? in a rally in Florida he said it at the rally. I thought he said that Obama founded it and back Obama. Let me hear this: let's hear this all over the Middle EAST and it was a terrible mistake and then Obama came in and normally you want to clean up. He made a bigger mess out of it. He made such a mess and then you had Hillary with Libya. So sad, in fact, in many respects you know they honor. President Obama, ISIS is honoring president,

he is the founder of ISIS he's the founder of ISIS, the founder fillet three times and their fucking Sharon did ice quarters and I would say the cofounder would be Krooked. Hillary Clinton Copa makes you wonder if he knows what the word found Mean didn't give a fuck. You know what I mean he's a pro wrestling candidate. I had a bit about this in like two one thousand and five I had a bit about George Bush in that he was so dumb that I don't think that he was really the candidate that the Republicans like the best candidate they could have. I think it was a test to find out how dumb bar, because there's only one way to tell if the people that the bankers industrialist. They don't really know how dumb Americans are. They know about pop culture. They know what people like and that they only there is only one way to find out you put a dumb guy in office.

You see how people react and that at the end of the first year, when he won again or the first term, when you want again, I think there were around gone. I think we can go dumber and they decided to get some fucking pro wrestling type. President, some some dude was like a combination of like a drill sergeant and uh, a pro wrestler who, just you know you just go to TED Nugent concert in school people up put nets, and you just set him up and that this is kind of what he is mean you such that that is like the even the way, the audio this is yelling along and cheering its theatrical. This is this is all like a parade, it's theater, they don't They don't necessarily think that Obama really founded. I Cyst they don't care. If you did or not is no thinking, there's a box that they operate on it's a very small box. They operate all their thoughts exist inside this box.

And they never expand. They never go there, there's no there's! No nuanced! There's no subtlety, there's no there's no broad spectrum. There's no big picture is none of that just assholes have their king. We have a lot of assholes really easy to survive. It's really easy we could have kids. You can't have thought when this started. You couldn't have thought that this would get this far. Don't you like this seemed like a joke to begin yeah. I thought somewhere along line cooler. Heads would prevail, but I'm torn because as a comedian. Well I mean this is a fucking goldmine they're there about to open up a damn of gold they're going to breakdown the dam and gold is going slow down, it's going to be a man, but as a human being, this could literally lead the end of civilization? I mean as a student,

itself as a sort of student of kind of self sabotage and the bizarre abysm's business of the Hume. Condition you know to mean? I find it fascinating. It could be the end of the world, but it just you just see things happening absolutely are unprecedented and- and I have a kind of chaos- a chaotic streak- that in Your use, the site that feeling you get in the scoop, the playground as a kid when a fight break yeah. Quite quite but you just sort of what you thought it was an awesome. This is thrilled at seeing civilization bone. Something can happen. It's got something crazy is going to happen. It's not a business as usual. Here's another thing that I like about it there's a lot of things. He says that are absolutely true and here's. Why One of the things that I like about. What Trump represents? He is not the political establishment and the political establishment sucks it really does suck. It is a corrupt, completely corrupt institute and what he's saying about Krooked Hillary, I agree. Look if you look at the

and foundation. You look at what they've been able to do and the laws they have been able to skirt and the amount of influence their able to have and the amount of money that they are able to generate and where that money goes and how ambiguous it is and how would that hasn't been investigated? He's right he's right in a lot of ways. So I hope that, a lot of what he's doing his theatrics and if he does wind up winning. I hope that he puts around him some real advisors that understand international policy that aren't any he tones everything down, and this is all that's like the ultimate hope right I don't necessarily think it's true that he loses personally, but you hope that Hillary wins is. I hope that she doesn't win either. I don't see, I don't see Jill Stein winning I mean, I think it's either about Gary Johnson. He might who is Gary Jones? How dare he's. The he's. An independent he's, Gary Johnson, libertarian candidate. This is very, is it going to weld? Was the libertarian candidate no Johnson Johnson with

all is well does well device we're going to find out. This is a former Gov between Hillary and Trump. You would go Trump, no, no! No! I would go asteroid which hope an asteroid hits huh. I don't like. I don't like either one of them, I'm going to bad play. What you said about it took a orange head casino, magnate pathologic. Who lying issues Orange point out the truth about the American, the brokenness of the american Gary Johnson and Bill weld bill weld as his vice president. I think we are in a bad place with either 'cause either one of our exposing the ridiculous aspects of our society and the Nicholas aspects of our political establishment, our political system, it's ' not a good system. Representative gah

that doesn't make any sense when people can represent themselves. It made sense back when it was impossible to get word to Washington how all these people felt, but now the p, you are almost saying by continuing representative government, two thousand and six teen you're, almost saying that. Well, you can't have one person one vote, because people are too fucking stupid for that, me almost saying that maybe they are are they and if that's the case, we need to fix that. Instead of just continuing business as usual, going to figure out how to expand our eh occasional system or enlightened. Some of these people maybe drop mushrooms everywhere. Something with It's got to be a better way than just continuing business as usual, when that business has been shown, at least in Hillary Clinton's case, to be completely corrupt. Do you think how would you rate Obama I like him as a human? What I like about Obama is is measured, he's intelligent and, I think there's one thing I mean as much as when you look at Paul

he should get. Some is running the president there's a lot of speculation. How much power does he have? What is it like behind closed doors? One of those meetings, like is you know like SAM Harris, is an interesting point. He he's, like is Obama a guy who was lying all along or when he's running for president and then gets in office and does different things like keeps Guantanamo Bay Open and doesn't leave Iraq and all the different things that he sort of re nagged on or or is it that you become president and then you were briefed and then someone sits down and explains to the horrific nature of the outside world, and here are the threats to visitation itself. Here are the threats, terms of terrorism. In terms of you know these different dictatorships that are seeking begin nuclear arms and here's some real problems and here's the strategies and here's what we have to do and here's why we can't do what you promised. Is that too? I don't know we don't know, but what Obama does represent and here's what trickles down

is, as a man he's very measured, he's very intelligent, he's he's very articulate, he doesn't lose it cool, he doesn't respond nonsense and the speech is that he gives. Are they there they're a great representative of education of dignity of a guy who speaks for do well in a guy who is smarter than most people that you know? I think there's something to be said for that, and I think that that is what George Bush wasn't. That was what was appealing to me about Obama, but you know we believe bullshits too, you know. So it's like at what point in time? Do you get to speak your mind? Do you ever? Do you ever get to say what you really think, if that's what he really thinks? If that's what he really is when you're a politician,

you are almost required to try to play this game of not pissing people off over expressing your true feelings on things like you've got a kind of play it as much down the middle. You know that there's going to be a bunch of people in this side, they're going to hate, you is going to be a bunch of people on that side that don't think you're going far enough, but you shoot down the middle and you get the best results. It's almost like pretending to be someone who you're not to try to pick people up at a bar like it's, it's a it's a bullshit act and that's what politicians are there bull, shooters, they're, they're, really good at bullshit. What's bizarre about Trump is he's not doing that? That is this is who he is all right thing knows me that that's true, I think, but but I did go to your point about where the people, stupid or not. I think it. You know that's an unkind way of phrasing. It I'm a non con dude, but but actually no one, has the we have jobs to do and to be informed

all the subjects you would need to be informed on to make the right decisions to run the country you would you would no one has the time to very good point. We need people to specialize in these things and it's like bricks. It was a triumph of in the U K when it was put to the vote. This massive decision, whether to be part of the e: u no one in that space of time, is a member of the electric could educate themselves to the point where they could make an informed choice. Yeah and so people thought you know what I just want to have something different. Let's vote for a change and we had brexit with, I would argue, disastrous results. Well, the temporarily disastrous, but you know. To be seen whether or not it well, I guess Liza Asters yeah, I know my friend Steve Hilton who's, a very bright guy who's been on this podcast before he was due the camera's right hand, man. He actually is a supporter of Brexit, that's one of the things that he had a problem with Cameron over they had a falling out. I want to talk to him so

done with him. I don't know enough of it. I don't really follow any politics. I barely follow the United States. I didn't know what the FUCK Brexit was until Going down, everybody was saying, is the end of the world yeah I mean I agree like I feel as though, it's easy to go along with the group think, but I was in favor of in Europe when I'm talking about representative government when I'm talking about is like this electoral college set up and the one person one vote set up and the the the the idea that three hundred plus million people I'm gonna, be represented by just hand yeah for me was that yeah I mean the whole process and the way in which Bernie Saunders was marginalized. I think, and likewise you know in a way the for right, that Trump could run away with it. It I mean it's just fascinating how he managed up to overturn the apple cart.

I hadn't. You know I've already grappled with the minutiae of how US democracy works, but it seems to me like it's a really bizarre arcane system. We have delegates and what not exactly came up with that. Well, the we came up with it back when there was no communication. They came up with it back when you had to take a horse, and you had carry a handwritten letter across the country to communicate with people, and that was just is ineffective. They had to figure out how to have people in your various states in various counties in various districts, represent the greater good of people and also have the ability to decide over the rest of the people. That's why things that people don't even realize it in representative government when you have this, one person who represents a group of the people of the group of the people, the group decides to vote for Hillary Clinton that one person doesn't have to agree with that it's a weird funky system. It's designed for back when people were illiterate and there's a bunch of farmers and pilgrims and savages that came over from

Europe on rafts and made it to America and just fucking have at it, and they were trying to trying to manage this and trying to trying to figure out how to take the founder of others, ideas and best keep it all together, while they're exploring this whole new world and and dealing with governing these people we're literally thousands of miles away that you couldn't even reach, but we can do that now. Instantaneously, someone can send a facebook message. They can send an email they can, they can tweet. You can find out what people's opinions are, but then it becomes whether or not these people are qualified to would decide which direction the country grows. Well, if they're not qualified, we should probably figure out what the fuck we can do to make people more aware of what are the consequent kids of all these different decisions that are going to be made by our politicians, because there's a lot of stuff that gets made. When it comes to disastrous implications for the Envir

I mean when, when Obama was in office, he is set so much in order or so much in motion that environmentalists and people that are against offshore drilling mean there's uh a lot of fracking and offshore drilling and all sorts of things that could potentially have does naturis implications that were set forth by him that No one had any saying no no person in America that it was just a regular citizen had any say in these major decisions, like you know, Mark Ruffalo, just tweeted something about all the different uh offshore oil rigs that Obama had agreed to while he was in office, and it's disturbing really that's interesting. I have someone who resides in the UK and is more used to the british system, the church biggest shock when you

come over here is during the election cycle. The amount of money that gets spent in the length of the campaigns and work for is closing it in Britain. There's a cap on how much they can spend on that campaign, so they have like one or two tv ads each and then a couple of posters, but they do not do anything on the scale of what happens. Yeah and the amount of money that gets spent here is just insane so it does seem. It has all the hallmarks of a broken system. I would say not only that there's two recognized parties in any you're throwing your vote away. That's that's the implication! That's what that's, how people think and you know Tom Rhodes friend of Mine- was in he lived in HOLLAND for quite a quite a while, and he was talking about the variety of candidates to choose from in HOLLAND, and now they just have so many different people. They have conservative liberals, they have conservative green party candidates, they have liberal green party candidates. They have many

goes across this just wide range of different philosophies and how to govern in people get a better sense of. You know what what would they would like or what they agree with most, because this whole line right and hardline left in this Jude ideology that you have to subscribe to on. Both sides like if you're on the You don't support gay marriage, you're anti abortion you're this you're that you want gun rights. You want this you, you know, you know fuck immigration. You know, there's all this stuff, that you have to kind of agree to agreed to the right and then on the left if they agree to a lot of things that people not necessarily agree as well. So it's it's. It's so complicated to have a two party system and try to pretend that there is real democracy. The desert- and it's not really democracy, though representative government yeah, I mean that's, that's for sure. Do you think Trump's got a chance of winning? Yes, I do especially

if people find out what Hillary is really been involved. In I mean if they really start hammering that, like we have a few months to go, it's only August. We have to go through all of September, all of October and November. That's a lot in time. In that time, crazy shit can come out, and it seems I mean I've read in the LA times that he's already on a mini rebound based on this semi apology he delivered last week and that if he could tone it down a couple of notches and just sort, appeal to a few more women yeah, I'm just seem a little bit less insane yeah. He will climb in the poll numbers. He do it well, she's under two criminal investigations and there's also plenty of video out there. Where there's a direct contradiction between what the FBI has said, they were investigating what she was guilty of and then what she has said. They said so is not honest she's. Just not, I mean it's pretty clear when you compare

many things to what she said versus the actual facts. She's a lawyer she's, a lawyer who became a politician she's a career politician. She knows what to do. She's she's got Teflon AIR Dna and she keeps plowing forward, no matter what she doesn't do interviews she's not doing These rallies she's, just she's is going forward and it's very Sorry, this also a lot of questions with Dr Doctor drew did some big thing the other day talking about her health, because you know falling down in twenty twelve and apparently like had a blood clot in her rain, really hurt herself really badly and it her advance. This is a really dangerous condition and he talked about her health care and talked about the route, the care that she received. What the diagnosis was in is like. This is not this is dangerous stuff, and so who knows how much of her behavior, because traumatic brain injuries are really significant when it comes to the way your brain works post, injuring, although the way you behave, imp

positive, behavior array, depression, I'm hit a program on that subject, did you last year? Was it about it was. It was cool, it was cold, a different brain and was a it was set in a brain injury, rehabilitation clinic in the U K, it was based upon serious personality changes in the wake of a traumatic brain injury mmhm it as you say, impulsivity, sometimes a lack of empathy, rustic, behavior and, and it was about, got you. People use it, never to be about the relationships that they're in and the way in which people have to adapt around to the new needs and you know yeah, it was it's unbelievable stuff. I mean you talk about being. You know better than anyone from the sports kind of interest that Post Boxing Post NFL post hockey, if you, if you're a fighter in hockey the

and for pro wrestling too. It's been several terrific documentaries, one by Steve, James Cole, Tom, Head games and a few others that old examine. I mean the levels all of iraqi behavior offer an NFL career on real, whether it's divorce bankruptcy, suicide. What or serious depression it's off the charts. Yeah I've seen it first hand. I've seen it first hand from friends who became erratic and became really unstable. After getting a few times in mixed martial arts, fights I've seen it from boxers people that new. When I was young and then I met them ten fifteen years later and they're, just life was a mass, they become alcoholics have a huge issue. Their endocrine system and that they they they supplement with alcohol all drugs to try to self medicate, it becomes a real,

problem in the brain is very fragile. It's it's connected with this very, very soft connective tissue that keeps in place inside the head. It's just not meant to be hit that much you're meant to like survive a few bumps and bruises, and that's what it's kind of designed for and anything else, especially prolonged, continued abuse like that can have dire consequences or one significant injury can have dire consequences. What one significant one that we can be life changing or in the sports context, to concussions, I'm sure you know back to back within a single sort of space of time. Like one game, your first one's, not good, but the second one is cataclysmic. Yes and then what happens? A lot of times? Are people denied the first concussion and they go right back to playing football or they go right back to sparring. It's a huge issue. You think Hillary may have a Tbi, traumatic, brain injury. Well, I'm no doctor, obviously, but she definitely had a traumatic

injury. She fell and she had a blood clot in her brain I mean this is all open public record the diagnosis when you have a blood clot on your brain at sixty something years of age. That is incredibly dangerous. It's really bad and then you have to dress like what made her pass out in the first place like what made her black out what she fell down and hit her head. That's not good, I think, what we? What we really need in this country is like some all true, Dickey lawn musk type character. Some real g, someone who's like a really brilliant person who see is the state the countries in and offers some intelligent well thought out solutions that doesn't yes, because those people are too busy doing whatever they're doing so. What we're left with is career PA positions and then this madman, who a reality tv stars was, you know a casino man, I don't I don't I think that our system is good. I think it's very archaic. I think it's it's just not the best we can do, and I

we're just going to continue to use it until it blows up in our face. It's like instead re redesigning cars, we've got some model t and we keep adding turbochargers to it and bigger wheels and- and someone says, hey man. I think we can make a better car that this is our car. Usa, USA, keep just slap and bolts and and get rivets and screw in this thing in place, and it's all good. It's not a good system, and it's not the best. We can do. It's, certainly not I'd and I think human beings in all areas of life other than our political system. We have advanced radically since the 1700s. If you look at the way we approach education, if you look at our ability to communicate with each other, you look at technology, the innovation and the the the the constant x. Banding of our horizons and possibilities as far as what we're capable of with technology. All those things have radically improved since then, but we still have this goofy system that was created back when people rode horses wrote with feathers,

and when you want a picture something you have to draw it, I mean that is but you, but that's great, because that's a great metaphor for the human brain in a way and and and kind of a big thought to Kerry's as we need to have but you the because that is the brain. You know all he Aubrey means all hinged around the innermost of all parts of our very in the amygdala, which is essentially reptilian in origin. You know, and so many of our deepest impulses of fear response and so forth. A program from a Felucia Neri heritage. You know week got euro circuits that go back thousands, if not millions of years- and you know that metaphor- you used to describe a political system of being an old jalopy, that's been turbo.

Charged is in essence what our brains- and you know as much as it would be lovely to believe that technology and our ability to control nature in control. Our environment had been hand in hand with sort of a moral and civilization all improvement did the you could deduce, maybe is May He examples suggest that all it's done is allowed us to do everything, whether for good or ill, more efficiently and more effectively. So we can help more people, we can blow more people up, you can drive falls you can drive faster way from a crime. Do you do to me, so I don't hold out any huge hope that they'll be positive, change, really see. I think I mean I might be wrong. Sometimes I read persuade me otherwise. I think that we, more advanced and more safe now than ever before. I think, if you look back on two thousand years ago, when you look at today, which is a blink in the aisle in terms of the age of the earth who it's infinitely better to,

live today than is that certainly here in America or in the in the west, but you know in in a in a global Six- was it six billion? I think it's seven. If you would, if you were dropped at random on us, wait, wait. We You are you wouldn't be Joe Rogan. You would probably be what of which you probably He was a places looking making apple phones in a factory you could be or you could be in China living in some Skyrise Rise, multi billionaire cell phone magnate, who the hell knows. You know I mean there's, there's certainly some wonderful spots in the world outside of America. Certainly some great places to live you if you live in poverty. You could live a wonderful happy life. That's way safer than it would be thousands and thousands of years ago. The internet is pretty much worldwide. Cell phones are pretty much available. Everywhere now, and so I think that access to communicate

mission is going to change the way people view the world because they're going to have more data to choose from the going to have more cherry, picking, and they can do, they can certainly have more copper Shin Bias and stick to their own group like we're talking about Scientologist, you don't go on the internet, don't take any suppress. Information and don't watch any videos, and I think I think what I'd like about your approach and what I like about what you're saying when it comes to Scientology? Is that you're not a mean person you're, not like mocking them, and you don't want to sit on them, but you Do is you want to look at them for they really are and try to get a really good understanding of it. One of my favorite parts of the trailer, that guy filming you you're filming him and you go. Are you making a documentary to well and it's that's it? Isn't it because you don't want to you know if I can quote Nietzsche use it which is kind of a sophomore thing too, but it's the idea of what you do when you when you look into the abyss, the abyss looks also do you like when

fight monsters to become a monster, and I don't want to use the the the bullies in many cases. I didn't want to believe them back and I did when I dropped into a paradigm of us against them, and I was really trying to say look let's keep. I don't want. I don't want to see the human in you. Yes, not just an agent for an oppressive regime. I think that's beautiful I really do, and I think that is a very measured and intelligent and wise way to approach this and I've enjoyed that about your other videos as well. I think in that sense, you're very unique. In the way you approach documentary film making and I think the Scientologists. They are not our enemies and the gentleman who left to the number two guy was a multi wrath, but the key is a perfect example that you're talking about a guy was in it for two plus decades. He laughed and easy. You know sort of come been clean about all the stupid shit that he did when he's in there. People become a prisoner of there earliest ideology,

the earliest ideology that they adopt, and that's one of the problems with any sort of a group think whether it's a cult, religion, whatever the fuck. You want to call it ideologies hum problematic. When you can't escape you can't very you can't you have to stick to the dogma. You have to stick to the doctrine and that's not good for people, it's not healthy. It's not smart, because I think the ability to communicate and open debate is why we have advanced to the point where at in the first place this suppressing of that almost always someone who has a bad idea at the tree, a the shelter. So when you see people chasing after someone because they're trying to come, kid about something like you who's doing it super respectfully what and when you see that what you have is a bunch of people that are trying to defend a bad idea and defend it with aggression, right! But if the more you could have become a mirror image of what whatever their projecting you reinforce them in that position

as well as from doing other stories about extreme religious beliefs like the Westboro Baptist Church. I know from people who I met, who are in the church. When I made my documentary and then subsequently left that what short circuits their beliefs, what allows them to to see something bigger than what they're in is when you treat them with kindness and and and instead of shouting back at the more hurling abuse back, which just reinforces the view of you as an enemy of gold or suppress civil. However, they characterize it if you actually behave decently in attempt to robustly present your position, but in a respectful way and with the kind of see coming from a place of caring empathy, as opposed to so since warrior so hostile attitude that actually can be a much more affective! Absolutely! You know, as well as being humane kudos to you, sir. All thanks, I'm a big fan. I really am. I really appreciate you coming back here and I'd love to have you back before.

The document grays out, which in January and hopefully by then the Scientologists have live Why stop? And if maybe- and maybe the film will be out of the wonderfully complex that document yeah, we we will maybe their films, gonna say you lose a really God yeah, we we we have you investigated it, we found out really practices what he preaches in or sorry. I don't think it will be, but will see all right folks, will be back in just a little bit with Hannibal. Burris he'll be back at a five o'clock, which is an hour from now, so until then enjoy yourself. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, thanks for tuning into the podcast. Thank you thank you. Thank you and thank you to our spawn, sir. Thank you too mother Fucker in square space, motherfucking square space. It's actually just square space. You need a website folks, I've got a solution to your problem. It square space-

God calm. I wouldn't want to listen to that. I don't know why I did that. I was listening to podcast do start saying. Look at the fuck is wrong. With this asshole squarespace dot com, Slash Joe, go there and get ten percent off your first purchase late. And gentlemen. We are also brought to you by Legalzoom. Go to Legalzoom dot com enter the code, word. Rogan at check out for a nice discount, where also brought to you each and every episode by on it, dot com go to vote and- and I t use the code word- Rogan Save ten percent off any and all supplements every podcast we do is fueled by caveman cough go to Caveman Coffee, Cavemancoffeeco, dot, com, The code word Rogan and check out and save yourself some ten percent off of the best coffee in along right, caveman, coffee, co, dot, com at zip, folks, fucking podcast, silver. I love the shit out of you see you soon.