Jeff Novitzky is the Vice President of Athlete Health and Performance for the UFC.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
The Joe Rogan Experience Circle: oh Jeff, merry! What's up you to not been the easiest, we in my life my careers last week, but hanging in there to make this stand alone, so that people don't have to go figuring this out on their own, and I'm sure many many fans are tuning in already know that the gist of the details- let's lay this out from the beginning Jon Jones Initial failed test that was July of twenty seventeen. He tested positive for approximately twenty anywhere from twenty to sixty picograms grams of a long term, metabolite known as the M3 three metabolite of a substance called the Hydro Clore Methyltestosterone Dh Cmt, also now
his oral turinabol- and this was over a year ago, what was determined to be the source of this stuff, never determine what the source was. So John went through a full arbitration Hearing- was never we're able to determine where it came from tests at all supplements. He was using. You know, through many interviews with Usada, had a full on arbitration hearing the sources never determine where it came from. Why was his suspension, solo or so short? It wasn't determined, so I mean there's many factors that go going so what that suspension was, I would argue, in the totality of the evidence It was presented in that arbitration that it that it wasn't a short suspension because really one key thing came out at arbitration, so John went patrician before an individual by name of Richard Mclaren, Richard Mclaren. As an arbitration group up in Canada and Mclaren is probably
worldwide, known as one of the most credible guys in anti doping, I know you had that the Icarus producer Director on the Mclaren report was the report that came from all the that he basically investigated the russian state being involved in dope. In Sochi games and put out Actually a series of reports on it detail it up to one one thousand russian athletes. You know we're breaking the rules and the russian laboratory was helping them get around it. So he's a very very respected. Guy he's, independent of obviously the UFC he's independent. Sada he on his own and his determination was his determination, and I'll read you kind of what he said. He said I find that all evidence available to me leads me to include that the violation was intended, nor could have have enhanced the athletes performance, so a
tensional so non intentional ingestion. I mean there's no argument that it was in his system, but he found the evidence to show now intentional use, and then he went further saying based on the numbers of what he saw on the evidence. That was not even a formance enhancing benefit afforded to John for having this long term metabolite in his system, and I think that's significant when you talk about. Hey fifteen months was that that's you know, kind of light being that this is the second time through. I would argue that if there was an argument that Maybe it's on the higher end, and certainly you know we'll talk about the California commission. Andy Foster took that position. In John's recent California hearing he was a little bit critical of Sada. He thought he intimately familiar with his evidence, both in the previous case in this occurrence that- and he also saw that there was no evidence that an independent arbitrator- you know made this statement of decision of John intentionally cheating. So if anything
You know. I'd say that potentially there could be an argument that that it was on the higher end versus the lower end, because of the fact that it was an unintentional ingestion. Exactly now, what is John's excuse? What is what is John said how he got this in to assist yeah. Well, look you know hey, it is it's detailed in the arbitration hearing at all, John John fully admits that you know some of the lifetime lifestyle decisions. He was making. You know the partying and things you know probably did not leave. To making smart decisions and making smart choices in terms of what was being ingested in the body, but certainly his testimony was under oath that I have never intentionally cheated and did not intentionally put this substance in my body and not only this case, because we talk about the sub Quinn case here. I think you'll see based on the numbers you know coming out of his tests and based on some studies have been done on some of these substances. That would tend to support that. Okay, correct me. If I'm wrong but didn't John test negative, then
test positive for extremely low numbers. This is the initial test before we get in the most recent filter did so test negative, then test positive very shortly after with a very small trace amounts, so we had two negative tests on July, seventh and July Eighth, I believe of twenty seventeen and then why ten day I think it was July 28th. He was positive for a very low level of the M3 metabolite and might as well start here so again going Icarus. Remember, remember! The doctor I mean is the main in twenty eleven. He put out a study on world to he actually, my understanding is dosed himself and then studied the creation of his urine and was coming out of it over the weeks and months after
determined that there were multiple, maybe up to fifty metabolites, that once this Dh Cmt was ingested into the body, the body converted into other substances, and these metabolites stayed around. He identified some short metabolites, some me Iam Term metabolites and some long metabolites specifically specifically the M3 that Johns tested positive for it? So these long term metabolites would indicate that was was taken long time ago they would stay. Are for the longest, why? Why was testing negative and then testing positive for these extremely so yeah the numbers, that's a good question and that's that's basically the question a point, but what was not occurring and what has never occurred in any John samples is any presence of the short and medium term metabolites. And if you look at of study, he identifies
couple of these medium term, metabolites, roman numeral, one and roman Numeral two, and he said as these metabolites based on his study will stay in the body at least twenty two days. Well, let's look back to the July. Seventh and eighth, you know positive tests he's negative on alive, seventh and eighth for everything for the parent compound for the short term medium term term metabolites and the long term metabolites go twenty one days later so within that twenty two day window, which is study, shows the short and medium term metabolites would still be showing up and there's no presence whatsoever of short or medium term metabolites. Now again, into this a little bit more. But I think the science would it's showing is a pulsing effect for this long term, metabolite meaning once you ingest they're intentionally or non intentionally to rent a ball into the body. The body
breaks it down produces short term and medium term, which is, you know, visible for a short media. Amount of time, and then this and three which is produced for a long period of time. I think with the issue appears to be an will get into this. The UFC program is not the only program that seen this there's another professional sports league that has seen it very frequently use That is also seen this on the olympic side, but we're seeing this strange action with the long term M3 metabolite in the theory, is it maybe hiding in the issues surrounding organs and maybe have a pulsing effect where released at certain times and times you can't detect it in. This is not the actual substance itself, but some metabolite correct, which indicates a reaction to the substance, is in this old body, breaking down the parent compound the the world to run the ball and turning it into these other things which are stored in the body's metabolites or not performance and
getting drugs are the result of the breakdown of the parent drug in the body. Now, what how much time is it detectable the actual drug itself? So pretty quick? It's a pretty quick clearance time. I think we're tank study says you know, maybe a week so not around for very long and that's why he conducted the study I quickly enough, and I was gonna. Go watch Icarus here last night and I just I've had too much going on the last week to kind of refresh my mind but currently he he knew. This was part of protocol for russian athletes. He knew a coach that was still giving the world ball russian athletes and he had a falling out with the coach. So he goes on the side and studies, hey the parent, is going to get in and out of the body. Pretty quick, it's going to be difficult to detect that let's try to her what stays around and leaves markers in the body for a long time, and so he developed the short term metabolite test and was able to catch some of this coaches athletes,
for using the oral terminable interesting. So the actual drug itself is gone from the system, but the metabolite remains now. What is the window that this metabolite is supposed to be detectable in the body talking now what we we at eighteen months, so here, initial here's. The problem was that initial ingestion, because my question is these same long term metabolites these existed a year plus you go. It was more than a year how long ago, that that's that so July. Two thousand and seventeen was your initial test. So with all the experts and we'll get through this with all the experts are telling us is, there is no evidence of re ingestion and most likely the is still remnants from the July two thousand and seventeen tests. However, it was to enter into a system and will go through some of these testing numbers that have shown negatives, followed by very low level. Picogram Picogram Monitor question, though, was that the ingestion that happened that he tested positive for in July of two thousand
seventeen indicated a long term of fat right? It was long term tablet correct, so meaning it already been a system for a year or so it absolutely could have predated. You know the theory, the first time it was something had to have entered his system between July Seventh and July, eighth, those negatives and this low Graham reading on July 28th over last year, there's been a lot of stuff be into this long term. Metabolite. As I mentioned, this isn't just a UFC issue. There's another major professional sports league that for the time being wants to keep their testing comma. Menschel, but they've shared that information with scientists with Usada, with myself they saw it on multiple occasions- is pulsing effect over a year where you'd see, but this is it in well over a year we're we're talking two and a half years now right, if it's a year, if the, if it's a if it enjoy why he was alive, the Largo seventy two, your time a year and a half right, dried your eyes in certain have grass allied seventeen, but right
it could have been in his system a year prior, I don't know yeah, it could have been a couple of months a year. I don't know he had never showed up. For that end, three metabolite four, you had been tested for it. He had been tested multiple times in the programming from wrong isn't the same level. Isn't it approximately the same grams that exist today in twenty eighteen that were there in two and seventeen generally. If you look in and we can go over these numbers it, it fluctuates. You know from single digits and never gets in the triple digits, two to mid double digit, so there's some as low as nine picograms over that time, there was some at sixty Picograms Selena Picogram to someone could a preposterous is small, it's insane Jane, and you know the the allergy that I heard early on, was- and I think John uses throw a pinch of salt, an Olympic Swimming Pool and I'm like okay. Well, that's kind
wrap your head around. Now, let's go the other side. Let's talk about something really small that we know of and how many times you have to break down that small particle to get to a a gram. So one grain of salt, and we all know what that looks like right. You put that in front of you and you split that and I'd mention this week, fifty million it's actually fifty eight million. If you split that fifty eight million times a grain of salt, each one is a picogram. I mean it's incomprehensible. The detection level and how small that is. It really is it's crazy and how many, how many that they find in his system so he's, gone from and and I'll read through it here. So here's here's since the initial appearance of the M three metabolite, here's what John's tests look like in those pictogram reading, so The first one was collection day was July, 28th, two thousand and seventeen. He had a concentrate,
ten of eighty picograms. However, let me caution and I'll read something from from an expert when you get down to these a levels- the science is somewhat inexact because it's such a small amount, so the variable plus or minus you know can be anywhere from twenty thirty and in some instances fifty or sixty. So with this and his name is name- is Larry Bowers. He was formerly the son that you saw the science director he's currently retired and independently consults before that he ran an Olympic Olympic Committee accredited laboratory at the University of Indiana. The guy's got twenty to twenty five years of anti doping experience. Here's what he he told me about. You know when you're when you're analyzing small picogram levels. Although the two lab respective laboratories report concentration, I would caution against
coming too fixated on the numbers. First, the numbers are really estimates of concentration and probably should be considered a range of out plus or minus twenty pico grams for ml- and he said the December ninth result would be in the range of Johns and we'll get to that between sixty and one hundred. Second, while the adjustment of concentration by specific gravity attempts to deal with the variability of urinary excretion rates. It is an exact it is inexact and add. Variability to the estimates, Finally, most importantly, science has no clear understanding of the variance of urinary excretion of drugs at alter trace concentration. So, basically saying look, I mean we have a general idea how this works in science but- and I think this instance comes to play- be real careful if you going to be the guy with the pseudo science out, there saying wait. A second John jumped from twenty to sixty from sub
number to December, and that means he re ingested it. What he saying here is slow your roll on that that that it's such a small, incomprehensible level that we don't really know what those variances are going to look like now, if we saw jumps and John from Single single, eight or nine nine, Graham to multiple one hundred digit Pekka grams it would be a concern- and maybe some re administration, but the experts I speak into when you're talking variability of ten twenty thousand and thirty forty, it's not that significant at the peak level, is the window where this long term metabolites starts to express itself like what you said: short term and there's medium term. This is the long term. How long does it take for the law? Yeah! That's a good question. I don't have the answer to that. It may be and re check, ups report here and I I would encourage those that are home. You know playing playing scientist at that: their computer the Journal of Steroid Biochemistry and molecular biology, Rodchenkov rights report to
action and mass spec Spectrometric characterization, novel long term, hydro for about testosterone, metabolites in human urine, not sure when that long term metabolite how long it takes to show up here's. The problem, though, with this substance, he did a real reef study. My understanding is administered it to himself. That's the only study that exists World Serena Ball, n t to my in standing is not approved for use for human consumption, some anywhere anywhere in any country. So you can't have clinical trial ethically in the medical world, because it's just not legal to give this to human beings. So you know we're kind of behind the eight ball here and that you know it's compare to other substances where you can do clinical trials. 'cause they're readily available, be a prescription or whatever. This substance is not this substance was created by the
east Germans in the seventies and eighties and was part of their state sponsored doping program where they were doping, their athletes. Can you correct him from wrong, but I believe what I've read is that this is particularly effective when people are cutting weight, yeah I mean. Is that true? Or is this just more? I don't know about that. I think some may be confusing to rent a ball with world to rent a ball to right. Weekly wages aren't, but that's just that's. Actually very important, yeah there's, there's very different effects on the body is very different windows in terms of detection time. Explain that yeah, you gotta, be really careful in this world of performance. Enhancing drugs, there's names that are interchangeable, there's different! You know middle names. Were you change a little bit of that chemical name? It could mean a completely different substance. Instances where the chemical name is different, but the substance is actually the same. So when to compare two substances you know make sure
if you're at home, doing that analysis, you're, comparing the right ones straight to rent a ball is different than oral Anibal. What is the difference? Yeah, I can't tell you I'm not as familiar with to ball other than it's not world to rentable. So, but there is a difference in terms of the detection window, there would be. I mean different substances create and throw out different metabolites and different substances have different detection windows. So I haven't done my study and research on straight to of all other than knowing it's different than the substance here, so Gregory your check off. That's I says right. He was the only guy to do an actual, verified study. Correct now is this study been? Is it been peer, reviewed yeah? I mean it. Will it's it's published in the journal steroid, biochemistry and molecular biology. So in order to get something published, it needs to be peer, reviewed right, so it been replicated any. Not that I'm aware of just so. We have one study which is really fascinating, so we know that
What we know this is an effective steroid. We know it works, yeah. He's Germans, I think, show that they wouldn't be a have been using and it's it's not a difficult. It's not a easiest, easy substance to get a hold of look when it's not approved for use anywhere in the world. It's only available on the black market, so you probably have to go to China to get a manufactured, or you know, research, chemical supply company, it's not supposed to be provided to humans? Now? I'm certainly not attributing this to you, but there were rumors. This was one discussion. Was that one of the possible ways. He could have ingested this and, let's be very kind, John likes to party one of the things about. Partying is people do cocaine and one of the things about cocaine is sometimes cocaine is cut with creatine. One of the things about creatine is oftentimes you're buying cheap creatine. I spent like one of the things that we've had with on it on it
our products are all third party verified, but in the initial goings, when we tried different manufacturers, especially for alpha brain, we found there were other trace, elements that were in our brain, that weren't supposed to be in there and it's because of the vats that they mix these things up with and One of things that we had heard was that creatine oftentimes is made in the same place where they might be may aural to rent a ball. They might be making an eyeball, they might be make a bunch of different things and trace amounts of this stuff can get into the creating they use. Creating to cut cocaine with is this. Is this possible or um I just yeah. It's it's absolutely a theory. I don't you know I I I can't sit here and write that happen, but will have heard similar things. I have heard some more things. I know for a fact, based on my pre. This career? I worked closely with the DEA I was with the FDA. I worked cases involving street distribution of red racial drugs, including cocaine. I know for a fact that create in is
of the most common substances that cocaine is cut with because it's more look, some more color similar feel so getting back to Mclaren, is arbitration decision. I mean this is publicly available record. So I'm not saying anything new, but Mclaren addresses at least Johns lifestyle around this time, and he says the athlete openly admitted to Usada that, prior to and for a period of time, app The reporting of his second adverse analytical finding on July, twenty eight two thousand and seventeen the athlete used illicit, so called street drugs, including cocaine for me to sit here and say that's where it came from time period. Oh, no! That's that I'm pretty talking about their the athlete admit um, that, prior to and for a period of time, after the reporting of a second adverse analytical finding on July, twenty seven, two thousand and seventeen admitted so before that test and sometime after okay, so
does that make sense, though, if it's cut, if that's what, where the source of it is, does it make sense that that would show up as a long term metabolite. Doesn't it need a long time in the body to digest, or do we not know enough about the window of time yeah? I don't know if we know enough about the window of time. You know my my theory and looking at it is even if there's a small amount of the oral to run the ball in that it's going to for a period of time, show that parent compound at a small picogram amount in the short and mid term metabolites in the small Graham amount? We have never seen those in the history of John testing. It's only this long term metabolite, so that maybe indication that it occurred, maybe even prior to what we're talking about here. Is it something that could be excel. Situated in some way by the weight cutting process. I absolutely think that could be a factor there.
Studies not necessarily with this, but another substance. Clomiphene and look. I want that, while I'm cautioning people to be careful about comparing different substances, the comment, quality between Clomiphene, which there are multiple clinical studies on because it is approved for use to be distributed, humans and oral, a ball is or both chlorinated. So they both contain a chlorine atom on the molecule, and there is a recently published study on Clomiphene and it's excretion rates again. Those at home that want to look it up. The study was published in the Endocrine Society publication. It's peer, reviewed, The name of it is h, P, T axis effects and urinary detection following Clomiphene administration and males. So what they did is they? Basically, you know got a group of males gave them a one month cycle of
morphine, you know I think twenty five milligrams a day and then how then get off and then continue to look at the year and up to two hundred and sixty one days after and you saw and what you see in this study is that pulsing effect. So you know I'm looking at some of the study subjects here. Subject, one on day, one hundred and twenty one still showed one hundred and forty seven picograms of Clomiphene, day, one twenty eight one hundred and seventy four picograms day. One thirty five shows nothing he's below with the minimum courting reporting limit and then day one hundred and forty nine is back up to two hundred and thirty six. There are one hundred and twenty three thousand four hundred and fifty six out of. I think twelve subjects in that study that showed this pulsing effect. Of this chlorinated substance coming and going again. You know it's different than oral Terrena ball.
It has that common factor of being chlorinated in this study. They do talk about I'm a fat tissue called the look this up and make sure I got this right, adipose tissue This is fat that surrounds the internal organs. It's one of the last things that the body burns when it's going, you know starving itself and going to fat. It protects those organs but yeah you look at these. You know extreme weight gains and cuts that the UFC athlete goes through. I don't think you're going to find possibly and other human subject anywhere. That goes through. Putting weight on other than maybe don't think olympic wrestling matches with an MMA fighter goes through You know in my experience over these three or four years talking to those in the olympic World, I think worth extreme and it's it's something. Obviously, we've talked about before we're trying to curtail, but you know there's There's clearly never been a study for anybody who do
hydrates and read hydrates themselves to the extent that some of our athletes do. You could never find. That would never be anybody with any ethics that was a this study, because some of that dehydration exceeds World health organization standards. So there's no studies out there. You know on this stuff, but clearly you know from afar. I'd say that it'll we have some impact over what's being released by this out oppose tissue. We should certainly talk about that in the future about the the week cutting aspect of it so that, but this adipose tissue loss at extreme weight cuts could put really be the reason why this stuff is excreting itself. It's it's definitely a theory out. Then, what about microdosing? So, something with microdosing thing is done with endogenous substances so only test. Well, I mean Someone could try it with something else, but the reason you microdose with endogenous. Substances is there already produced in the body. So the theory
okay, I'm going to microdose oral to Turinabol, printable still producing the short term and long term metabolites in theory, whether you're taking uh one hundred milligrams or one milligram of oral turinabol those excretion rates of those metabolites are still going to be consistent, they're going to be in a much smaller lesser, a way to bypass those excretion rates. Is there way to mass that someone I'm not aware of any sign. I'm sorry! I'm sorry! The only study we have is Gregory check retract. That's it correct, but you know just take from a common sense approach. It. Certainly You know those that know about micro. Grossing know that you microdose with endogenous substances, things that are already appearing in the body, so your body knows what to do with them knows what to do and you're fooling. You know not only are these metabolizing and there's no metabolites of them, but you could also be pulling the biological passport? That's the concern, I think, and why people microdose, so you,
God is looking not only testing for specific substances, but our testosterone, dapper testosterone ratios going up there looking at at blood, use how many young red blood cells, how many mature red blood cells so microdosing in those two areas wouldn't set off alarms in the biological passport world, I've never heard personally of Micro, dosing of exogeneous substances that are not found in the body, my producing in my understanding, is done with things that are endogenous, naked, one thousand body for people that are not familiar with the terminology, we're just talking about micro, dosing, performance, enhancing drugs, because Micro dosing in today's world is very common thing with mushrooms and lsd. Right, I mean I saw a ton of micro dosing in the cycling world that was test tells testosterone. Epo Hgh all those natural occurring in the body and they don't deuce, any really red flag metabolite. If you do on
very, very small levels. They'll. The parent will clear quickly not produce any tablets and will not throw off the biological passport analysis is there a way I mean when Victor Conte came out with clear and all that stuff with Balco. They were, they were fooling people is it is it I mean one of things we've talked about before. Is that it's a constant race to try to keep up with more advanced, cheaters it is, and you know it's interesting in this I mean with. I would talk to you and maybe the first time we did talk a couple of years ago. It's come a long way from them, but clearly, if I ever talk to you fifteen one thousand six hundred and seventeen years ago, when I got my start in the anti doping world, I would have told you definitively that s thing is way behind. You know, what's being used out there they were testing able to test to multiple nanogram limits. That's as far down as we can go now they can go down to single digit, Picogram. There's another proof,
National Sports League out there. That recently had a one picogram and three metabolite case. I mean Do the math coming down from you know four or five nanograms, which used the the lower limit now to one Picogram, ten thousand and twenty. One thousand times. I am almost under the theory that the pendulum has swung, maybe a little bit too far in the other direction, and that that certainly is part of my job to the UFC. Look. I want to catch every intentional cheater, that's out there to make sure we have a rock solid program, use all all the latest and greatest you know techniques to do it, but I also want to keep an eye on it to make sure it's being administrated fairly and when you're heading down to detection of one, you know single digit picograms. I have concern that what kind of level sensitivity we're talking about? Are we going to talk about environmental contamination where you walk, you know
room, and somebody is just opened a container of something and there's no miniscule powders in the air. There are doc many cases that some of the regularly prescribed prescription drugs, specifically diuretics, are getting in water supplies. In some areas. You know you get a lot of people on them that flush, their old pills down the toilet. There's documented this is of it getting into the water supply and being detectable at that picogram level. So you've got to be really really careful about that, and I think you know this case example. Lies that you saw and really the world Anti doping agency, world and community are aware of that You know with greater sensitivity and testing in my opinion, because you know makes greater responsibility to be objective and look fairly at what really were doing here, we're detecting in that small amount, but this this test of John's, where he
testing for the same level of grams. Today, as he was in July of twenty seventeen, is it safe to say This is unprecedented repeat that, again that John's test for the same levels of PK grams of these metabolites in twenty eighteen that he was testing for in twenty seventeen. This is president. No, the answer is no, so maybe unprecedented in the UFC program, but what the United States Anti doping agency did over these last five or six months as they reached out to the side. Community outside the scope of the UFC they reached out to other professionals, sports organizations they reached out other Wada laboratories and what they were seeing was multiple Instances of this pulsing effect we're over time. He was you reading right. The next test. It would go away and the next time you see
that reading again, maybe back up to or even above this much what time was correct? Yes, so and you see it in in the Clomiphene study here too in almost two hundred and sixty they stop the study, what it was appearing in Picogram levels in some subjects and they stop the study at two hundred and sixty one days and you see those numbers I was reading to you see this one subject at one hundred and seventy four he's negative, next time, then he pops up to two in the two hundred, after. So it's actually more than the time before again apples and oranges. Different substances, but the commonality here is chlorinated substance, so is it safe just say that this is an emerging science and that we're still learning understanding this as we go along absolutely, it's still very young. Look the first. You know the nineteen eighty four Olympics in LOS Angeles, were established. The first drug testing laboratory by Doctor Catlin
so really you know in the scope of science going back to the earliest days. Then they're talking about you know what thirty thirty years, thirty thirty five years Then, when I started off in this sixteen or seventeen years, the science still wasn't good. They were unable to detect anything in the picogram level again for reference. Very interesting. So the the world anti doping agencies, accredits laboratories across the world, and they have certain standards of those laboratories must meet or to retain that accreditation and that accreditation, so they have a technical document called the minimum required performance levels of their laboratory. So would they tell the laboratories? Is you must detect these absences down this amount? If you you get get down to this amount. Then you can't have an accreditation from water, so the class
of substances that oral Terrena ball would be in, which would be other anabolic agents, be required minimum level, they must attack. Two is only two nanograms nanograms. So look you and says as long as you can get to two nanograms, you can retain our accreditation. Well, what's happening is an arms race in these laboratories are saying well two's the minimum standard, but I can get down further, and you know these are private cities that you know are looking for customers so to be able to reach out and say well, even though a lot of Lt's, too, is as low as we need to go. We can go down to one a gram, I think in a sense, maybe you need to slow the reins on that, a little bit that we're getting too far and too sensitive of a level of detection when it comes to implementing a fair program, because you can't determine where one peek a gram cop came from, you could be breathing again contaminated air.
Contaminated water gets real dangerous when you get down that low. Now, how does this reflect on past suspension This is what, when you deal with someone, let's bring up Frank Mir, for example, didn't Frank Mir, also test for oral turinabol. Ok, I want to get back to Frank Mir, but let's go back to John and this instance and why you saw that has come out and said: look this is not a violation, so if you go to the out of the world Anti doping code, there's a section, ten dot, seven point: four dot: one Ru Fc program? You know basically mirrors that and we're bringing that up on the screen there so so for purposes of imposing sanctions under ten dot, seven, an anti doping rule violation will only be considered a second violation. If the ant doping organization can establish the athlete or other person committed. The Second, anti doping rule violation after the athlete or other person receive notice pursuant to article seven etc.
What's known as a double jeopardy clause. Right me, sanction guide test positive for something and if he's test positive for the exact same substance that is still in his system a year later or whatever the amount of time is you don't include that as a anoop positive test. One more thing has to happen. Science has to determine that there hasn't been a re administration, so test Paz for the same substance and science says based on other numbers, we see there's no. Evidence of any re administration and the non evidence of the RE administration is the lack of short term and medium term out the lights single, never Lebron Johns there an issue, though, that this is only one test that Gregory would Chancos tests is the only study that showed at these, medium and short term metabolites exist. It's the only study, but I think that if there's only one study, you have to go to anecdotal evidence right. Why don't we things do studies on it? You have seen ploys because
this oil, China, ball oil to Renovar he'll, do it or else for rent a ball is illegal today Tribute Mexico in any country throughout the world illegal, contracts, so they just let you do whatever you want to do. I don't know, maybe we can look into that, but Shelby may be up for that and that's the reason for living there. I I I I I have a problem with that in that were relying on one study. This see and to me to be like a critical thing that could affect, I mean we're, we're hoping and we're we're putting faith in the study that this is the only way that these metabolites express themselves? Is it possible that what that these, like you see what the pulsing effect that you see positive effects and negative or positive results and negative results that these short term and medium term metabolites, don't always express themselves and that what we consider
in a long term metabolite could in fact just be a metabolite yeah. I mean I, yes, it's possible. But what are you going sanction an athlete again because you know, potentially it possible and then the theory about universe. You can't do that. Let me read to you real quick what what these experts came out at terms of re administration so Doctor Daniel Eichner runs the SALT Lake City. It's called this more sports, medicine, research, testing, laboratory or Myrtle there Two water accredited laboratories in the United States, other one being at UCLA again, one of most respected mines in Anti Doping Phd chemist. His answer in terms of Readm Stray Shin, was this: send you very rarely see scientists at his level talk in absolute in abs boots? There you go, and here he says there is no evidence that Dh Cmt has been re administered? That's in writing too.
Us, so very definitive on that um you, science, director now Dan Daniels, Independent, even of you Sadis, and those who criticize hey you saw it is in bed with the UFC Daniel actor. Dozen for Sada. He runs in dependent laboratory. You saw to send samples there. The NFL send samples there. Major league baseball, samples there, the NCAA he's independent. Owns his own laboratory You saw that also put out a letter to us in in writing a upon careful consideration of the very low concentration of the Dh Cmt long term metabolite, Mister Jones, a sample and taking into account the human farm medic characteristics of this particular long term, anabolic, steroid, metabolite based on date. To which you saw, has access to and consult in consultation with scientific experts, some of whose opinion In close, you sought, as concluded consistent with higher residual amounts detected and Mister Jones Sample that the presence of
the cmt long term metabolite, is consistent with residual amounts from exposure prior to to July 28th. Two thousand and seventeen look. I'm I'm not an expert. I don't profess to be my my backgrounds in fine finance and accounting. I trace the money back in the old days, but I know who those experts are out there in the world, and these are them there by putting these things in writing, putting their reputations on the line now and forever going forward. They're never going to do something like that, because you know the UFC pays. You sought to administer our program or because is Jones is a popular fighter and they want to see him fight this weekend. That's just not the way this world works, of course in in fact, the opposite way. There would be a great benefit if they could catch him. Cheating absolutely- and you know, historically, experts like this or very, very conservative when it comes to talking in absolute
it's like this: they don't normally do it. In all fairness, the real question is like you and me because we are UFC employees, so but we gotta handle this fairly, and I suggest that argument. Of course you know I saw that left and right that hey Jeff and Joel eight by the UFC, of course, they're going to come out in this way, but look all these things that I'm reciting, I would ever do that in regards to cheating. I wouldn't either I've I side with the Ui sing a lot of things because I support the sport. I want to excel, I don't side ever with cheating if I think that there's some way somehow that someone is gay, even an unfair advantage, and this is somehow being covered up. I would rather not work for them So my my seven, my last seventeen years of my career, my my my you know everything that I work for is to protect the rights of clean athletes into a rat, a k, cheating from the sport. I can't tell you how strongly I feel about that sports. Given me everything in my life, my dad was a high school basketball coach, it
pay for my college and scholarships, you know at least the good care. Touristic Sunmi, I can all trace directly to sports and entering in equation the issues of breaking the rules. The issues of the health safety aspects when you have young- and I talked to many parents whose kids you know use steroids because they saw the professional athletes doing entering that into the body when you're hormonal levels are already out of control is very, very dangerous. Both short and long term can't tell you how passionate, I am a about this issue and those out there that are saying that I'm corrupt, reputation- is out the window. I would never ever in a million years? Listen to those people, I mean you. Obviously you have, but you can't listen to those people because they want to find things wrong. One things that I've said about. You is you're, a guy who loves to catch people, cheating you like it. Joy you, no that's not true man, you do I don't mind if I, if someone is cheating and you catch him,
You know like that in the US, the program now with what we've established here, absolutely back in the old days, and we talked about this look when you had in baseball or in cycling testing going on literally organizations were looking in the other direction. I've often said: look I don't agree with what they did, but they the portion of me and that's why? I think a lot of these athletes SP acted me and share that information. There's a portion of me. That said, I don't agree with You did I'd like to think I have made the same decision, but I damn well understand why you did this you're fighting for me. Means of dollars in contracts. You know your t, mates are doing it. You know, you're competitors are doing it and you know your professional sports organization doesn't give a shit because of the weakness of the test, thing program or total lack thereof. So in instances like that there was, I never came away, saying that guy's an idiot or an asshole for choose, and I came away saying I kind of get why he did it. If I is twenty one or twenty two years old and immature, I may have made the same decision not coming to our program here. Where
you have an organization that cares very much that spends multi million dollars a year? This program has done nothing but cost the UFC money. Causes money money and how we implement the program. Save costs money on canceling fights. Anybody who thinks moving this fight to California. Is that a financial benefit to the Fc is crazy. We're taking a bath on this one. People really do need to understand that the UFC he decided themselves a self imposed you as sanctioning of fights correct nobody for supposed to do that. So this is. This was a big step in the right direction of trying to make the sport cleaner, because we recognized first of all, there was somebody, legal stuff with the testosterone replacement therapy that just threw everything out of whack wack, where it was essentially, it was sanctioned. Cheating mean, let's be honest about what that was. It was clearly in my understanding being manipulated,
be very easy to manipulate when you get permission to use any prohibited substance like that, and we went from that to unbelief simply strict protocols and now what you're seeing is you're seeing. First of all, we saw a radical change in the physiques of some fighters, where we we did have some some missions in those suspicions, at least in my eyes, have been confirmed and now we're seeing the good side of this with what, in your estimation, might have then moved over into a position where ok now, now it's getting a little bit ridiculous in terms of like what we can detect and what is is causing fights to be canceled exactly so. Interestingly enough, the world Anti doping agency alotta their next code. Revision is two thousand and twenty one,
and so they regularly put out hey what are the issues going forward that we want to address, and one of the major issues is potentially establishing thresholds for these low level, substances that keep appearing G cmt, being one of them, Oster mean being one of them, and so the idea that water is looking at and has a working group of worldwide experts is hey. If, if something gets reported back in under fifty Pekka Grams, all? The evidence is showing more likely than not? This is from a very low level. Contaminant issue we've never seen an issue of my reducing or intentional use, that's reached that level. Why are the abs, even reporting at sub at quantities lower than fifty a or one a hundred peak grams. I think very soon they're going to come out with a recommendation. We are gonna to that before too one thousand and twenty one once that working group and we're in communiqu, patient with them comes up with those
recommendations, you'll see it implemented. First, in the UFC program, again, I've always said fairness due process in a program is just as a of the strength and comprehension comprehensiveness of program, you'll, lose faith in your athletes. You could have a stroke longest loophole free program in the world you star, implement implementing things unfairly, you'll lose face just as much as if you had a bunch of loopholes in the program. It's got to be fair. Are you aware of the female skier that tested positive because of lip balm see yeah. It's vaguely recall about that. What was someone else use lip balm before her? No, no, no! No! It was a a lip balm for sunburn. It is for sunburnt lips and it had some ridiculously small trace amount. Was it austrian see if you give her name, is Joel Berg?
well, there was the cocaine. Kissing. Defense was actually won in arbitration, so something similar somebody tested positive for no low level metabolites of cocaine and basically said: look. You know, hey whether that was good or not, but you know the arbiter I bought it in the science shows a that. That is a possibility. The detection levels are so low if you kiss somebody who had just done. Kane. There now able to detect that those levels in this the person a kiss that person that makes sense. Do you find this woman just as well yeah open label on the label, which is why they gave her a penalty of Oh, I see. Ok, what is the fox reading labels on lip balm? You know I mean, Is that that's that's an outrage? Thank god I mean all our athletes know when, when they're using a create ten or a protein or whatever, I think most of them are pretty careful right now, but to tell them hey, you need to read your lip balm and your deodorant. I mean where what level we get
to here right in these levels of detection. So she, twenty one nine year old, star of Norway's powerhouse squad of Us Skiing, Cross country, skiing, tested positive for an Allen anabolic agent listed in the contents of a treatment for sunburn from this could be similar in some ways to what Chad Mendes tested positive for for something for Psoriasis Correct, sat Chapman's. Obvious psoriasis, you see it on his body. He's talked about it pretty openly and use some sort of a cream and accepted his penalty. Wasn't aware this cream had something some type of a steroid into it. Yeah I had seen him publicly state that now he chose not to present a defense, sir going arbitration, so I haven't seen anything in detail to write you he's out. Road dollars went ahead in on that yeah he did. Wouldn't so, let's get back to the Frank Mir case, Frank Mir tested positive, also also the same thing, long term metabolite of world to rentable, here's the difference, Frank Mir,
the same is Jon Jones. His first time through was sanctioned. John didn't get off the first time that showed up in his system. He got you know he was looking at potential for years, went to arbitration present evidence enacted some other clauses in the policy that reduced his sanction. What does that mean? Well, one of them was substantial distance where or he assisted you Usada in some way shape or form, and he got a reduction for doing that assisted in what way I don't know- and this is the exact reason why I do this, so I insulate myself from that interaction between you, Usada and the athlete they are the soldier Judicator in this they do not. You know, get me on the phone. So, hey we're thinking about going this way. They adjudicate completely in a vacuum and you're. Just so people know your title is safety, health and safety athlete Health, and performance vice president of athlete, health and performance, so
you no longer work, for you saw never work for you, Sada. That's that's a big misconception. A lot of our fighters think that I've never worked, for. You saw that I was a federal agent for twenty two, a half years, um the latter part of my career got involved with all these d distribution cases. Two thousand fifteen Lorenzo Fertitta and Dana White through a mutual friend contacted me. Hey. Would you come out and kind of talk to us, we're contemplating, maybe put in phone program. Together we've had some recent high profile positive, so I can about to Vegas talk with them and a weekly I get a phone call asking if I want to come work for him and kind of implement this new program, but I've never been an employee of Usada okay. So that's that's good to know because that's been stated by some public figures that you used to work for you Sada and now you work for the UFC. Never wear your shell on my favorite words, so you never work for you Sada you
brought you Usada to the UFC or communicated with you Sada and facilitated this agreement correct. So I I never worked for you Sada. I did work very closely with you Sada, so you saw that when I first started the series of investigations back in two thousand and two look, I knew all about how work in distribution organization of cocaine, distribution, organization methamphetamine, but when it came to performance enhancing drugs. There was no class that my well for really any other federal agent or law enforcement agent goes through surround, distribution of performance enhancing drugs, so I was coming the discarded garbage of Balco every week when they put it out to the curb began, seen, notes, rapper, there's all these substances. I had no idea what these things were. I didn't know the difference between testosterone, testosterone, erythropoietin hgh. I knew nothing so what I did is I figured out who
Those experts were who were the people that could very quickly get me up to speed what I was looking at doctor cat. Lynn who ran the Use Olympic Laos one of the first and he started you know kind of walking me through this. He put me in touch with you Sada, and you know they began educating me as well. So over the course, of those investigations. I got a lot from them in terms of educating on these substances. They were bringing some of their cooperating witnesses to me and then we go often Bing on criminal investigations, but never never worked for them. So you saw auto correct me from wrong, but the way they would work would be very compartmentalized like they would not specifically communicate with you on all of the details. Of this correct and they don't now. I don't know you don't independence aspect I don't ask. These deliberations are going on what they're, looking at I don't know, super cooperation just for me to be frank, would in my
guys would mean that something was done purposely illegally in this person. Had, some knowledge of purpose, purposeful, illegal activity and that they would somehow communicate this to facilitate some sort of catching of someone involved in a criminal act or in the act of cheating yeah. That would send to me too. That would be what we're talking about you Sada would allow oh John, a shorter suspension if he actively participated in helping them catch people that were cheating that see understanding. I don't know in that would be implied. I don't know to what level that was done. I don't know if it was that or if it was hey here's how this drug works. In more general. Here's out, I don't know what it was. I purposely that be. That would mean that John would have to know about cheating. If you're saying like this! This is how this jug drug works is how I used it. I mean this would be That would mean his initial defense. Would have to be thrown out the window because it wasn't an accident. Well,
I mean I don't know about that. If you knew something separate from you know, that he was someone else and and again I don't. I don't want anybody to reach that conclusion. I have no idea what his substantial assistance entailed. None right, that's a slippery slope. It is a slippery slope and look his sees important in any program, but you know only to a certain level look if you were transparent about what everyone's you, cooperation or substantial assistant was and the all world knew about it you're. Never Get anybody after that, coming in and and and- and I saw this definitely on the criminal side with you know, performance, you don't that's not something! That's that you want to be trained. About or disclose right, but there's going to be a bunch of people that have a real issue The idea that John Jones, you know, one of the greatest fighters of all time is actually working as an informant I mean it's it's listed in the in the you know in the Mclarens ruling that that was one of the reasons for the the mitigating fact
during the reduction, but I don't again neither you nor I have any of nothing about leave that alone. Nothing about. It's been stated, we know what it is okay or we know that it's a thing when it comes to the John's initial test, where he was sanctioned and was suspended for a determined period of time. Frank Mir also was sanctioned in for a period of time as well. He was two years Jordan that John was short on cooperation and a bunch of other deal to sales. You you not only Cooper, he went to arbitration and put on a defense. He put on a defense that look. The evidence here shows no intentional ingestion of it in fact declare and gave him a further reduction. Based on there was no evidence that this was intentionally done. Frank Mir didn't put on. He had every right to go to arbitration. Put on his own
sense didn't do that. What about Josh Barnett, Josh Barnett? You know completely different set of facts. His came from a contaminated supplement. It was a different substance. He went to an arbitration hearing the harbor there ruled with Josh and said yet you know based on where we are now based on the care and effort that you took your right, you deserve to have time at the time of that arbitration. So again, I think that's a good temple of the checks and balances in place. Here you got me, overseeing the program. Taking a look how these things come out. You've got the ability from the athlete to go to Mcclaren's group, and judge you know the set of facts, and in that case Mclaren's group said you saw, I think, maybe uh reached a little bit here and I believe Josh and Josh is you know, basically time served so you want to see you want to see them, get it perfect right. Every time
you know the reality in the real world. Is that doesn't necessarily happen and that's why you have these checks and balances available. Josh porn take on the matter, is that they tried to paint him as guilty, even though he was not in that he feels like he definitely got a bad deal and that he was labeled as someone who is taking this substance. He was suspended for a long period of time when he's going through this and although he was found not guilty that he feels like not enough emphasis was put into establishing that he was not guilty and that you know he he feels like they chased him down over something that you didn't do yeah. I mean well, here's what he did do is he used to supplement that if he would have listened to anything that we educate on that Usada sends out regular reminders? Are fighters are required on a quarterly basis to go through videos in the whereabouts filing that deals with these issues, if he would have fought
load any of that advice. When it came to his supplement choices, you would have never chosen the supper and he used. I you know when, when I heard about that supplement and what was on the label and how it was marketed, I said okay? Well, that's that's likely the candidate of where it came from So I mean the analysis would be hey. You know that pool b careful there, sharks swimming in that pool, they can eat you and the person. Jumps in the water anyway saying look, I didn't want to get eaten by a shark, but shark comes up in eight hundred. Am it's like hey? We told you that this was the case. You didn't follow that now. There also needs to be a differentiation between someone who intentional cheating, intentionally cheating and someone. That's just you know, makes a naive supplement choice there. Needs to be a differentiation between that, and there was in that case, Josh didn't get. You know the full penalty of what was that substance you know would have rendered, but he did have to go through a long period of time where he was unable to fight
He did, but you know again he had the prohibited substance in his body. You saw it has to look at hey, even though you did it. Didn't do that on purpose. Did that give you a performance enhancing benefit did allow you to recover a little bit better. Did it make you a little bit stronger and you know it's why those strict liability provisions are in there. Otherwise people would just take these prohibited supplements and say: oh, I didn't know exactly. It was an accident exactly mean while they're getting a benefit for exactly so, they have to have some sort of penalty in place. I think so now. I also think again, there needs to be differentiation between the intentional, not intentional, and we do have that in our policy. There are definitely mitigating factors available in our policy that, if you didn't do things on purpose, you're, not you know, sanctions aside, TIM means is a great example there. So TIM means a relative. Totally benign supplement was a create creatine. You know generally doesn't
have an issue as opposed like testosterone, booster supplements. We tell our athletes stay away from anything marketing as a testosterone it's one, the most common with contaminants or purposely spiking, purposeful spy, means to means uses a ten. It had austrian and a very small amount we've and in their Austrian is two year sanction. You got six months, you know so back. Relat quickly. So I think the same thing with the old Romero. Yoel Romero used a natural diuretic product that had a a minute um. All these cases Not only does the prohibit substance need to show up in with the athlete has says they've used already, but to protect against making sure the athlete isn't purposely spiking it you saw we'll go out on their own on the market independently per hopefully the same lot of product and in the case of yours,
and TIM? They were able to do that test it completely independently of the athlete and what level the prohibited substances in that, based on the interview with the athlete of how much should you use when's the last time you used it relative to this test? Do the science calculations just to make sure an athlete not saying well. I know this create a spiked with Austrian, so I'm to go use austrian and then I have a built in excuse when I test positive for us in order to be able to match contaminant levels with what's being excreted in the year and you would literally have to have Phd degree and I'm not aware of of any our athletes, seven that to be very, very difficult to do that, and so these attacks levels again we're talking about nanograms we're not talking about large quantities that or grams correct now what why was? Why was this moved from Vegas to California and why? Why did
did the California State Athletic Commission? Why did they accept this fight taking place here and why did Vegas say no to it? So internally, UFC wise? We first in fact Donna Marcolini, who you know who works with me, were out to Donna exactly where a two person shop and the woman's the Hawks one of the hardest workers. I know so she's she's awesome, taking a look at something that we have access to call the clearing house and it's basically, recording of all the tests on our athletes, so we can get on there. Somebody says hey how many times was John tested last quarter, we can get on there and pull that up. The public so has access to our testing records, not with the specificity that the clearinghouse has, but the public could get on and you saw it on a weekly basis updates how many s athletes done so there's some of these. Some guys out there on the internet from the day. One of the program have kept track of what week their numbers take up. So you can go
find spreadsheets on the internet, at least from a weekly base is of when our athletes were tested and how many times every week bless those dorks, crazy, dorks. So clear, House program is very specific. We can get on there and see the actual date of the collection, and next to that, we see negative positive or pending so Donna came to me. November early December, saying hey, I'm looking at you know John these tests and I'm seeing pending still back from it was maybe August September. I think something's going on here and, of course, I'm like okay well he's fighting pretty soon, I hope not, but Let me reach out to Usada, so I reach out to them. They said we're working something you know conducting a study were talking. Other professional sports leagues were talking to the laboratories out there and don't have an answer for you now that but standby. So I think it was.
December six. They sent a letter to us and they sent a letter to the Nevada state. Athletic commission saying Just so you wear over the last six months. Early in the six months, we've seen a re emergence of this long term. Metabolite. In Johns samples. We saw when this, so this early December December. Sixth, we at the Nevada. Athletic Commission were notified. You were notified, but the test was from previous just so the test these tests covered from August through November, okay, so there's more than one test several of them, so more than one test showed this. So what they said was August, ninth negative August 29th, eight grams, 18th. Eighty eight September, eight so I mean there's a there's, a good negative on the ninth twenty
later so inside the twenty two day, the do day window, he shows an eight Graham, no short term, a tab lights, no long term, no parent, no medium, no medium, I'm sorry, no medium long term! Thank you um and go to the 18th of September nineteen Pekka Grams and then followed by four negative tests September, 21st October second October, 11th and November 14th. So at this point late November. Early December you saw said: okay, we've done our studying those too low levels in August. Well, there's no evidence of any re administration based on lack of short and medium term and parent, based on our consultation, with other leagues, with these labs that are seeing this we're calling
This is, would be double jeopardy if we did him again. Okay is also. This is something that should be really emphasized, because there's a lot of people that don't understand this. This is not just this one test. These are many tests that have been done over the course of John Suspension and then ultimately re licensing that are showing this exact same metabolize very similar level that, according to previous test previous task, specifically on clomiphene that this could be this pulsing correct result of existing in not existing. But this is not indicative in any way that can be provable of micro doses, correct, and not only that, but this is over we're talking about this being over long term long periods of time, many months. Yes, okay and consistent numbers, many months. Yes, so and again going back to to it. One expert doctor Bauer
said you've got to be Kerr. Were you talking about he's single and double wall number rams and see some variants? You got to be careful about saying. Well, it went from nine to eighteen. It means re administration, no, it's an exact science at that level. The water labs this a non threshold substance walls, water requires them to say to report back to water, positive or negative they're not required to quantify However, these water labs have also realize there's an issue when you're getting down the p grams. So what they're doing is going back after reporting the pause. Hey, let's see if we can estimate what this level is. It's an inexact science at peak a gram quantity is, in my understanding too, you know estimate with those levels are some variations, so Nevada is unwilling to sanction the fight based on all this information, so they get they get the initial notice that we got also. I think it was December. Six saying look
was an issue in August, these long term metabolites reappeared again, but we've sent at four negative tests. We don't believe that the August you know reappearance is a re administration. There's no sanction here. Nevada. You don't even have jurisdiction over the August tests again keep in mind. These are UFC Tests, Nevada doesn't mandate it, but Nevada says, look closer to a fight. We do take jurisdiction. We will adopt these Usada tests, so you saw it didn't need to tonotify. They thought out of an abundance of caution. Let's let Nevada know that this issue exists. God, damn you saw what the Phillip they said, but that's that's all good. You saw that it gets this. I talk with them, they're like whoa. This is is concerning, but we don't see anything within our jurisdiction here. So I certainly hope that no, queen test, show up positive, because that could be an issue and sure enough collect a sample from John on twelve nine, the expert
I did the results because they knew a fight was coming up and they do that now when fights or clothes or the collections were done close to a fight, and here you know he pulse is back up to uh. You know between sixty and eighty PETE So Nevada gets this this last week, man the days of run together me so a week, oh Friday, we have in Bob Bennett, was the executive director. Well, I'm a big fan of Greg. I say a talk show about Nevada, but everyone right, yeah, I agents. So when he does on a farm around. He is he's the one of the reasons why it probably wasn't sanctioned in the bottom was because they're so by the book. I getting because I want to fight to be in Nevada, but I understand Bob's position implicitly. So let me make clear what happened Bob came in Anthony Marnell, the chairman of the commission, came in a couple of representatives from the Nevada Attorney General's office, so they're the ones that prosecute and cases involving
TD use. It violates Nevada Regs. So we share all this with them less like. You did with me. Correct, share it all with them and low. There's a misconception out there. They did not say this fights absolutely happening next week. In fact, they, I think, we're understanding these issues but said: look you know optically. This doesn't look great and we feel that out of an abundance of caution that we need to have a public hearing and be very transparent about this 'cause. This is this is a weird shit. This was Friday, so were eight days out from the fight. So you know we start talking about hey. When can we potentially have this and unfortunately Christmas? holiday several, the commissioners weren't even in town and base Actually what they said is look. We will absolute only do this if you want us to, but likely that hearing would not be until today, Thursday or
maybe tomorrow, friday- and you know your nails like look I'm starting to get my head around this, but I can't guarantee you that my other commissioners or Maine we're going come about the same way. So you're taking you, know, you're taking it pants here that we could say well, we need more information, so so, basically they were willing to listen to it. I think they were starting to wrap their heads around it, but didn't feel that they were up to speed enough on it. They did have the luxury that Andy Foster in California have remember when John tested positive in July, two in eighteen, that fight was in California, because flight was in California. California retained jurisdiction. They've had two very public hearings on John when they suspended his license and recently a week and a half ago when they reinstated his license so and in the commission were very familiar with oral Terrena ball. They were very familiar with the long term
tab, a light and, in fact, and e someone critical of you sat during the last hearing. He thought, after looking at all the details after reading Clarence position, that there was no evidence that this was done on purpose. He thought maybe they went a little bit hard on him and he stated that in that in that second hearing, so with the real mergence of the a gram quantity of this M3 long term, metabolite and in the commission, unlike Nevada, didn't need to get up a speech on it. They've already had two public hearings on John's issue. They were into really familiar with you know of these dynamics of this drug and Mataba lights, and that's why he felt comfortable based on they're familiarization with it and based on these written absolutes statements by these experts that there was no re ingestion, one and the second being which we haven't covered disease. These experts said
these low level Pekka grams. There's no performance enhancing benefit and that's an important point, because if you would have told UFC look, this is still remnants from a year and a half ago, but we can't rule out he's not getting a performance enhancing benefit from it. That instance I'll tell you- and you know I I stand by this- I would I would leave this company if somebody told me otherwise, if there was any indication that there would be a benefit from him, even though it technically wasn't a violation, I'm not going and by well anybody licenses that guy to fight could have been. Could this have been somehow or another mitigated by communicating these results to Nevada earlier. Well, we didn't announce the fight that John was going to fight and in Nevada until October, but in Oct over. So you have said: hey one, here's this issue sure, potentially
but but issue was you saw the hadn't come to that they were in the middle of that point of consulting with other professional sports leagues, with the other water labs they hadn't reached there inclusion their science expert had determined hey. This is definitely residual, no performance dancing. They were still going through that data at that point. So what they told me, is look we we try to hurry that along as fast as possible. We we to make sure that that you know went through this and very, very detailed and no stone left unturned. When, when did they reach this conclusion, so this was early December so December. Six. That letter went out saying: we've had these two low level positives back in August, okay, but here we are, I mean this is the end of December. What could couldn't this have been headed off at the pass? again, when Nevada first got notified, they thought like we were hoping well he's. Had four negative tests. So it's probably going be negative going forward here right. That's what you know the lay person would think. Okay,
we out of the woods now, but you know again getting back to what of time is this in John's preparation and if you look at some of these numbers and when these metabolites appear and disappear in our the August John preparing his defense for this arbitration. I think he had an idea based on talking to his attorneys. Like a we got, a pretty good shot here of some mitigating factors where this is potentially going to get reduced, so I think you know he's starts to get a little bit. Motivated, gets in the gym start training again clearly, in early December. That's the period of time when our fighters, that close to a fight are bringing in that body weight right there, cutting body fat they're losing a little bit of water? So it's certainly seems to correlate these these. These pulsing sex with this is just theoretical right that is least opposed tissue. Absolutely so
is positive. Result was announced when so a week ago, yesterday. This is you saw it has announced. You saw that notifies us, the UFC that always happens and they notify, if any commission has jurisdiction at this point, this close to a fight, Nevada has your section. So I get the call, and you can imagine what's going through my head, I mean I I've gotten. So these calls now. I literally for the first five or ten minutes can bury my head in my hand and think through exactly how this thing's going to play out- and you know It's going to be hey, Nevada's, going to say, wait a second! What's one on here. We need to root this out John, I going to say Jesus Christ like what is going on in my life. I can't get a fucking break. I'm trying to be careful. I even went through see. How do you going to react and he react he's going to be. I fucking told you this was the case. This guy's a cheater,
you know? You saw his bullshit novitzky bullshit bullshit. All this stuff goes through my head in the first five or ten minutes. What's Dana Dana Gonna react house one hundred and react when I have to go over to his office and explain this out to them it played out exactly as I saw it, it's it's it's some of the worst days of my career. When I get these calls but You know every bone was notified and Nevada was in our office. Two days later and again I mean there's been some criticism of them out there. I don't fault them. This is a complicated issue that optically doesn't, look great and to do anything in a rush manner would be difficult. They did everything they could to a artists. Having a hearing problem was, it was just it was too close to to a fight actually to get this out. The issue with optics right, because it you go on Twitter, everybody's, calling him a cheat everybody saying that you know anybody that sanctions. This is you're sanctioning cheating
for someone to get an understanding of what this like it actually requires, probably more than we've done now over the last hour and fifteen min yeah, and I appreciate this forum I mean Dane, and I went on sports center in announced in three minute hit, and I came out there doing absolutely everyone in the world is going to say this is bullshit. You can't this we're. Gonna have a hard time doing this in two hours here, MRS things, yeah you've got you've got to delve into it You also have to put your trust in reliance on these experts. They have a education, professional career of twenty to twenty five years to come up with these absolutes there's, no one else in the world, but maybe a dozen people that can come. Up with these conclusions. You do have to put your you know your faith in in their background and their careers and their knowledge and education and absolutes were that there was no evidence of any re ingestion. This is by multiple experts,
and that John would not have retained any performance benefit based on these low level. Picogram amounts. Well, I'm happy that we were going to have this out there, so people if they have the time, if they're, really that interested in it. This is probably a more in depth discussion of this than you're going to get anywhere else, but I really wish we could have gotten something like this to Nevada, Nevada could have gone over this and looked at what what I'm saying what you're saying it seems to me that we could have just had some sort of a meeting and kept this fight in Nevada, and it would have saved everybody. A lot of heartache, yeah, I mean I think things were pointing in that- there was no guarantees on that. The dice baby, it's Nevada, come on. It's Vegas, you know the other thing was was being looked at. Was fairness to these athletes? Well, you're, going to athlete you're gonna put John and Gus, maybe more importantly, in a position where he doesn't know until two days or day before whether this it is happening or not. I mean these and and
not even mentioning the other fighters on the card and look you can talk to and I have to Sean and Mick and and Dana and Hunter all these five I want to be on the big pay per views. They know the bigger the fight at the top of the are the more eyes are on that fight and when you have a spectacular fight in the first second fire on the card, if it's on a big pay per view with a giant, fight. At the top of that can propel your career, your next fight, you could be fighting the main event on. You know: fight pass and grass from there. So I think you know, I think it's to say that, generally everybody wants these these cards to be as big as possible and when all the x to telling us a one hundred percent. This isn't a sanction be is not retaining any performance enhancing benefits. I think and clearly day hunter thought. This. We have an obligation to do what we can do for fairness, as for John definitely for Gus for the rest of the card to try to make
fight happen going forward. Is there any way we could ever prevent something like this from happening again with a similar situation in place like Nevada, so here's I think we have a couple solu Lucien's to that, and it's not necessarily relative to the commission, but one thing that obviously protected on a lot in this was the frequency of testing. You know if you look at his numbers, and these were these. Instances where they collected samples. But in many of these cases they did multiple tests on him, and that means The tests I'm reading were for the anabolic steroid panel, but in addition to, they may have done the biological passport test. On that same collection, the may have done an h g h tests, the PO test- and this is all confidential- that you cited- doesn't release of this information. These numbers on the right look at it. Well, tell you that you don't see what those tests are done, so the reality- and they just told me this is john- was one of the most, if not the most tested athlete over these last six months, when you look at total
lot of tests on his samples. Excuse me one thing that obviously protect him here was that volume of testing, and so you saw that came to us and said you know hey, we think that you probably should you know up the amount of tests that you're doing so. We, just renewed a contract with you Sada and we're just we're increasing our testing numbers by thirty to forty percent. We currently the first three years, the program under contract for approximately two thousand seven hundred tests and starting this next year, we're going up that around forty three four thousand four hundred test, so I think there it's going to be more of a certain they're going to be you know, you saw, is showing up in more doorsteps early in the morning of more of our athletes. But I think this is a perfect example that that increase volume of testing actually can be a protectant to the athletes
when you talk, talk in these low level, a quantities and contaminated cases, and things like that, we just gotta get athletes to stop. Taking any supplement that some third party tested great point. So here's what we've done in that area. So not three months ago, Usada hosted a working group and included the UFC myself in our sports nutritionist Clint Wattenberg. We've met were there majorly baseball was there, the Department of Defense was there, there's been war fighters who have purchased supplements at bases over in Iraq and Afghanistan that contain ephedrine, another bad products, some of them potential who died as result of ingesting them. So they definitely have an interest in safety and dietary supplements, and you saw his experts were there, but we did. Is we invited in the major third party certification, companies and each one took one took day presenting two: their programs. Look like we went back
huddled after each one and huddled at the conclusion said what is a platinum standard? Third party certification? Look like. Let's all these presentations, we got what we strengthen one's weaknesses and the others, and we have to put a perfect one together. What was it, what look like Over the last month, we've been authoring a paper that's going to be published in a scientific journal going over what that gold standard plan. Some standard looks like going forward anything party certification company that can meet that. There are some that are very close. I think we'll be able to do it very quickly. We are going to say you saw it is going to say this is an approved line of supplements. We are move you to take this and this something that we've been unable to do in the first three one slash two years of the program- and I tell you Joe, it's the most coming question I get from our athletes. What's you sought approved and as soon as I say, you saw today approve any supplements, but here's how you ensure your safety, they stop list
goes in one ear out. The other. This is mean, is a silly suggest, but why doesn't the UFC come up with its own supplement line and provide them to the fighters and say you can't take anything else? Yeah I mean it. It's a definite Benetton here, it's a dead sponsorships with other supplement line, exactly there's a lot of dynamics to let us not as easy as yeah doing it overnight, but it's just like Shin method. Just if you could say hey, you could take creatine, you could take. You know all the multi vitamins you could take. You know branched chain amino acids. All these things have been proven to be effective, but that's that's where to write. It's like their affect meaning, the enhanced performance and recovery, but they don't do enough to be considered a performance, enhancing drug ugh yeah and the present in the food supply too. So right, you know. Basically out of can you can go eat ten breasts, or you know, have a couple scoops of protein if you're on the go and don't have time to do it, so I think again, apples and oranges in terms of performance. Dancing or not so
the theory would be. We have an approved when, when I'm Donna, Ask that question what's approved. I can say here let's say Nsf SF has one thousand two hundred supplements that prove that say all one hundred these are approved. You should only use these if something were to happen to an athlete that used an approved line of supplement to get out of jail free card if they can prove bit- and you saw it independently- prove it there's no sanction. I think that is going to go a way and I'll give you isn't for that. Major league baseball does that they have. For the last couple years now they have some manage and that all their athletes are employees coming into the same facility for during the season, so they have some control over there. So we don't. Our athletes are spread among sending forty six countries about the world. So it's more of a challenge, but baseball said the only supplements were allowing in the clubhouse CERN facility. Are they use Nsf supplements they had zero can
dominated something in cases last year they had think they're, testing numbers or four times the amount of our testing numbers and zero contaminated supplements. I mean the proofs in the pudding right there, so they had sort of a deal with Nsf. I don't know if it's a deal other than they've examined who those certification companies are, and they feel that they're. You know at the top of the line. We don't want exclude any that's. Why we're contributing to this paper to say? Look anyone could be one of these approved lines, but you must meet this criteria for platinum standard program, but it is coming from someone who's in a supplement business me. That's the wild west out there boy is it I mean there's, ah there's a lot of shit out there. That's just they purposely add performance, enhancing drugs to their stuff, because it's cheap and
people take it may experience these gains and then they sell a lot of it and then you get a following exactly. I saw that when I was with the FDA, there is and what they normally will do for maybe the first six months of the product, they'll spike it with something. If the going that route and then to Reese liability there after they've already got the following: the bass stops working like like hell and then they back off just in case the guy and, and it doesn't work anymore. People go on. My body must have adapted exactly that. You sun ship, this It's really such a shame, because this is such a fantastic fight. I mean there's so much drama involved already just having Jon Jones. Returning having Alexander Gustavson look, absolutely sensational in his last fight with Glover to Shera all the trash talk and hype and intensity, and the fact that this is really other than DC versus John. This is the fight that people want to see in the light heavyweight division and look
nobody saying and I'm certainly not saying that John didn't do anything wrong. He obviously did John has to time Now tested positive for prohibited substance says, however, both occasions arbitrators have determined that it was not done in ten recently so Anyone who says it all John's getting off light on this he's been suspended for almost two and a half years for lack with a lack of evidence of any intentional use or cheating money's is probably lost in those two and a half years. How many tens of millions of dollars does reputation? Anybody who says that he got off? You know Scott free on this. I would argue the other one as he was spelled to the strictest of liability standards out there, some of the top their game money earning potential like him. There's also an incredible amount of stress and
it's on his women being. He feels and he hears what people are. You know saying about them and that's that's got to be very difficult. Also gas coming off of this massive suspension, so is coming off of the suspension, which is huge, bear very public very worldwide, but after the cocaine, the car accident date, the previous, the the Dick pills and had the stuff- and I mean this- is so many things and then to have This happened literally the week of and have the fight moved. California I mean, and I get the skepticism that's out there again without delving into this. I've spent hours and hours and these experts have spent their careers. Looking into that, that's really what's required to get a comprehension and understanding of it another thing another argument John's being treated specially because he's John Well he had another athlete that this somewhat identical thing happened to, but nowhere near the level of John. So a kid by the name of Grant Dawson. So grand
Dawson last summer was in the data white Contender Series had an awesome fight. Pain is like you got a contract. Kid We get him into the Usada program. There you, the coke program, requires you to disclose everything you use going back twelve months or one year, the idea being look even though you weren't under the program. If you used, you know world a ball eight or nine months ago, there could still an advantage that you be getting. You know we're not going. Necessarily suspend you cuz you weren't, subject to the program, then we're not going to let you fight over right away. Do you have to be in the program for a certain amount of time testing clean, so he didn't, he didn't disclose that he was using anything his first test. You test positive for three metabolite low levels. Goes to arbitration argues test. Lies. Underoath I've never heard of this substance. I've never taken it. I would never cheat here are all the submissions I was using. I can't find it the arbitrator
there's hearing you saw that goes of them says hold on a second we're look into this matter. Talking a baseball whatever you say It comes out that hey. We can't prove that this didn't for substance a year before that disclosure required him to disclose he was using, so he was basically let off in an eligible so John's, not the the person in the but see that this is happened to not notwithstanding other professional sports League other Olympics. It's happened to other out, which she's not the only one, so I think what's important for people, I get the skepticism, but I think it's very important that people don't accuse someone of something that they didn't do, and I want you if you're listening to this. I want you to imagine if John Jones and you trying to get your shit together and you didn't do anything new. You didn't do anything different. We've got to have a path of redemption for people you get you have to
and if John as you're saying and all these tests conclude, if he didn't do anything folks, you got to stop saying he's cheating you get, you got he's not if he's not cheating and if it's showing that these are these long term residual metabolites that are incredibly small dosage. It's the Israel, cheaters out there and John's fucked up. He has fucked up and you were all right to be upset at him when he fucked up. This is not is LISA's. My conclusion, after talking to you in and I'll talk to some scientists that were skeptical about some of the aspects of it, but they're also they're skeptical, because they're not up to date, perhaps on the differences in this, this pulsing effect or the fact that this is something that is relatively there's not a lot of lot of documentation on this and this is something that's relatively new in terms of our ability to stand. P grams, our ability-
just, and this pulsing effect all these different, these variables that you have to take into account when it comes to this people love to call cheat, they love to, and it's good it's good that the people are out there. Keeping people honest by thing, we gotta. We gotta look at this the right way, and I think the right way is what you're the way you're laying it out here. I don't see any holes in this, so you know a couple things in the future that people can look forward to look one and ten John wants to fight Nevada again and Nevada is basically said. Look I think we understand this issue, but we need to have this hearing. There will be a look hearing on this. My understanding is early quarter. One! So look you know, don't take my word for wait until January. I'm sure they'll call some of these experts to testify do some of these documents is one of the public right are longer even than this conversation. Yes, my love be my guess, yeah so yeah I mean that's, that's to come the whole thing such a disaster for everybody else on the card for a man,
the and Cris Cyborg and for all the people in the the undercard the mean is just to have them to move all the way to California. Happy about those at the fight is still happening. I'm very happy to fight still happening. I am, and again I have to take an objective look about. Is this fair, as it relates to how our policy and what the rules are, and you know when you have you know one of the experts in the World Doctor Daniel Wagner of this Myrtle laboratory issue and abs the statement like there is no evidence that Dhc, Nt has been re administered and that, based on these low levels, he does not retaining a performance enhancing benefit how of fairness and implementing the program. Do you prevent this fight from happening? You can't do that. It would be categorically unfair um moving for from here what changes and what do we do to stop something
Well again, I think the increase volume of testing is going to help, I think, being able to specifically direct our athletes. To approve line of supplements will help no hey and I don and the Hell message the hell out of these things, but you know it takes athletes in their camps to listen to what we're saying. So I mean, if anything, good comes out of this. Hopefully it's it's a warning to those other out others out there about here. How careful you need to be so to just to wrap this up. So people understand, if you, if you want to put a by on this, there's no evidence whatsoever of any micro dosing. So this is one of the concerns people worried about Micro, dosing, no evidence whatsoever. I could dosing, wouldn't be a substance. You generally Microsoft, you dude and dodging a substance is not exhausted, is also no evidence of the short term and medium term, medium of medium term, yep, metabolite
it's that were recognized by Rodchenkov golf tennis again. I think it is Gregory I have time with is Gregory. It's that's only test. We have parent compound ever found as well. These are these only test. We have that show these long term short term and medium term metabolites. These the short term in the medium term, ones that would be indicative of him taking it recently, don't exist in any point in time. During these testing correct, so this is most likely something that is inside of his body. That is an incredibly small levels, and is it safe to say that the detection levels that the detection methods are far here today than they were a year ago, two years ago, three years ago, increase by thousands of percentage points, insensitivity I mean again and how recently over the last, five years.
How recently have they improved from today versus a year ago yeah, I believe so again. You know when I heard about the one picogram detection of the M three metabolite. You know that was something that happened this year. I'm not aware of that ever being that low the number in anytime in the past. So I think You know, literally week by week, month by one month as we're going here, that level of sensitivity is increasing. Actually no possible performance enhancing benefits from these incredibly low levels. That's what the experts are telling me look and again, I'm not the expert. I don't want to profess that I am, but what what do I have to Go to. I need to go to those experts that have made Careers out of studying these substances and the benefits, and they were all universally telling me that there's no performance enhancing benefit full compliance by John Jones, in terms of being there for you Sada at every single test, notifying is where
now it's doing everything by the book in terms of what the UFC requires and what you saw. The required yes or program has a three strike policy. So basically you know: if you miss a test for an unexplained reason three times, then it could be a violation never had one one whereabouts strike he's always been a when he saw his tried to test them and again actually recently. Recently, one of the most tested athletes in the UFC. Wasn't there one test in the past where you sort of showed up at the gym, and there was some sort of speculation. That John was getting under the ring, Pre Usada priest. I was pre Usada before I got here. I've heard about that and other details. I don't know whether it's true or not, I think, was a Nevada state. Athletic commission test. My recollection is right, but it wasn't you sort of test so there's no reason in terms of how you're looking at this particular case that this fight should not take place or the job should be sanctioned any further. There isn't and look it's it's the least compelling argument, but I think you know you have
Look at it. You have to look at the common sense approach to this, a guy who went through a year and a half almost suspension. Two very I would cat your eyes is embarrassing public hearings in California. Arbitration hearing before Mclaren all this science is rooted out about how long this stuff stays in your system, long term metabolites for months, maybe years you're, used to use oral turinabol still after going through all that leading up to a fight, I don't buy that see, I don't think I agree with what you're saying, but in terms of people fucking up, there are no bounds on human stupidity. An in terms of people's ability to do impulsive things that are rational, that wind up sabotaging their career is almost more of it in and that people are willing to do that than not it's very.
You're, less likely- and this is in terms of specially in particular in fighters fighters- are ridiculously impulsive. It's one of the things that categorizes it's a characteristic of the type of human being that gets involved in that line of work. In the first place there, wild mother, fuckers, they're crazy. They do cry this shit, and I just I don't- I don't buy that that would be new level crazy and look again. I categorize one is a new level, crazy guy Lee, compelling argument. I agree this compelling, but I think we'd be remiss if we didn't at least consider that it I eat. Okay, I I see your point. I don't buy it. I doubt that part, goodbye, bye, all the science and I'm a big John Jones fan. I mean you call me John don't suck up all day long. I think he's one of the greatest of all time and I think it's not over for him. I think he's still could reach. I don't even think is at his peak. I think he's still got time to be the greatest of all time if he hasn't already achieved, but I think that he's also he's a while
man, you know it's one of the reasons. Why he's so great one of the reasons why you opened up the fight with Shogun at twenty two years old, with a flying knee and he's a wild the fucker, that's who he is, and it's in one of many reasons, besides his talent, that he, so god damn good? I know the lows of the Lowe's he's gone through these last two years, you wouldn't believe how low those lines and so again look I don't do I agree with you that that's not out of the area of consideration, but man- I I just don't I don't anybody could be that reckless, I hope, you're right. I I also worry that fighters. In times, and I'm not accusing John to doing this, but often times surround themselves with morons, and these morons give them poor advice, and these morons think that they have ways to skirt systems and
and get around the rules and they have people that you know, throw bunch fancy words their way and they want to believe- and this happens all the time this happens all the time with fighters. In regards to financial management and advice that they get with, that, I mean I've seen like world class fighters. Do ridiculous shit in terms of strength and conditioning, because some asshole with a good vocabulary, talks them into some nonsense. This is just one of things that happens with fighters and often times they can be around someone who gives him poor advice. Terms of what they can and cannot get away with when it comes to supplementation and when it comes to steroid use yeah absolutely, and I see that that all over the place in John's case, however, to give credit where credit's due you know his team after the initial positive with the Dick pills, was very acted with me and Donna and you know, checking supplements hey what line? Should we go to show they? You know to give them credit.
They definitely showed increased exercise of care when it came to supplementation with John Well, that's great to hear- and I really hope this is a thing of the past, and I hope this is the last time we ever have to talk about John in this term and that moving forward. We just talk about him in terms of his performances and is his fights, and you know what these are the chief too young to digest the champion of all time anything else yeah. So I was going to bring this up the beginning, but the Golden Snitch, that's, first of all, that's branded jobs name. He gave it to you so taken on a life of its own and I think I think You know the last time we talked about Donna, asking Alexa, who the list is now yes Lucy. That was so. You would see reset it selects and we'll see. What's yours as well, I've never tried this hello, sir, who is the golden snitch. Is some information? One quiet itch
isn't Harry Potter yeah after the last time on- and I mentioned you know, was in- I think my Wika Pedia profile at add me as a k, the golden slides and somebody else, hey Seery, who is the golden snitch? How old, Seery Seer keeps going with the wattage? so so someone took it down from yeah yeah yeah. They do that. Well, I think we talked about your like I don't know they just did it. So I think I told you that back already coworkers call me in my family calls they call you. The golden friends call me at. I was at the AMA awards last year? And some Yahoo had a few pops back in me is screaming in between presentations. The golden snitch is in that I'm slinking down in my chair My girlfriend is here. It is, then we got damn the golden stitches back up already JFC on the internet, popped up beautiful, just just fucking when they do that. Just put your hands up in the air like you
one, so you know definitely make a shirt during shows all sit, pretty close to the cage go out. Between a fight into the bathroom. It's not Joe Rogan level. Half the damn arena standing up excited to see you walking in and out of the fighter walk, but two or three people in that walk when I go backstage to check on your side of the golden Snitch so give them. You know Steve Reed. You know so you read our ball security that bad ass. Looking guy on stage he'll come back, stay just mate, they're, calling me the snitch out there, man, I think, I'm you that poor guy pays for it we were in he's a scary guy, who he's a great to those guys at the top of his game in security law. I dress up around log on believable yeah. I saw him one time in LAS Vegas during a fight he was sitting. On the floor. Something's happened in the fight, the crowd goes fucking bananas and Everybody stands up on the floor. Steve stands up
and just motions sit down in the entire fucking suction side down two hundred plus people, I'm like, if you can, without even having touch somebody to stand up by your presence alone and control. Something like that. I mean the best I've ever he's. Also as it gets do, are you going to do anything to market this? Well, this into my story here: it's not marketing, but let me finish this story or so Min Chicago this year, It was a paper view. You were there right, yes, so something happy and I was late getting to the arena and they had cut off kind of the loading dock I couldn't get to it. So I had my his daughter with me. And so we're having a walk through where all the crowds walking in and you know, dudes all of golden snatch. Hey. Can I get picture golden Snitch, my daughters like what the fuck is going on? How was your daughter so she's, twenty two so two days go Christmas morning. I'm opening up presents so I get the presents for my daughter,
the three of them in my middle daughter is very artistic, and so they create these cool, sculpted beer, mugs and there's four of them. One of 'em, like bald guy, brewing Navit something and one of them says Golden Snitch Brewing company. So it's cool. Looking thing and she drew me a black and white kind of rendition of all four which I'm gonna hang up, really cool. So then girlfriends there. So she hands me the box and she's been telling me all launches. I got you the best fucking present ever in the history of presents like the hell is this, so I opened up the box. Oh, my goodness, series at shirts. I think what size are you large large answer you since you hated it. You literally and figuratively have to wear it now so that picture. Oh.
There we go baby. The circle is closed. Look at that. So I pose a boot on this or something that's pretty generous, like quite a chain gang from the series, Moscow. I think I can say this whole for the. Let me back in, but it's out in front of KGB or FSB Headquarters said I building in the background is KGB has now known as FSB wow. So, yes, I posted a picture she got me like twenty shirts. I put him on that private Instagram Facebook, everybody in the world like take my money man. Where can I get one? That's what I'm wearing at the weigh ins tomorrow. All right yeah who created you gotta own it. Now I got one for shop too. You can still get it shops mad at you busy. He called the golden rap now change.
I thought maybe he's in for Miss informed. He thinks, first of all that you were an employee of you sought out there you go and that now you're employee of the. U S c, ah he's misinformed about that, and I think He he likes to call skeptical. He skeptical hippo skeptical as well, but I one thing that I've learned from This podcast over the years is that there's no fucking way. There's it's it's impossible to know everything. It is impossible and you have to rely on the expert keys of the people who have spent a lifetime studying these things very important. Here's another thing, there's no way these people could be large. Think about this and it wouldn't massively damage their career. Going full would be done. Someone would find out. Someone would get to them the other scientists without them
would be studies done that papers done papers done the internet out about it about it. Everybody would know, there's no way pretty unprecedented in writing with the lack of the study it's the Pachenko one being the my and even right. How do you say retain coaching yeah, it's pretty unprecedented. They would put these absolutes in writing. You know with this lot I think they looked at it very hard and detailed, and obviously they weren't quick and turning it around, and we would love this decision to be made. Earlier so, we could have rooted invented it out with Nevada, but they did indeed You know, sign their names to these pretty absolute statements and what Can the ufc- and I do when these experts are putting those apps lose out there and I get the people go. Oh well, look at the UFC. Do you got it folks this folks this would be career suicide. This is this is cut Bing edge science, we're talking about
too many people that would have a vested interest in calling bullshit it's it's not something they don't fuck around when it comes to these things, the people. Out, though the final line when it comes to catching people, these things in the science of their important there that there are did that they're involved with it's. This is not you get. You can like gas on the outside with no education. It's just not wise. This is what I keep saying over and over again, it's people that Have some knowledge little bit of knowledge and there they're pretending that there they have a phd in this shit for those that want to you know, do more detective work go, read, Mclaren's written decision on John in July two thousand and eighteen July, two thousand and eighteen test go read. There were tank off study on the dhcmt in the metabolites and go the recent clomiphene.
Where it shows is chlorinated subsidence, it's pulsing, it goes away comes back higher than before goes away comes back, lower goes away, comes back, higher, crazy stuff. Okay, we good when it wanking someone get one of these. She only made about fifteen of fuck outta here man, you got to sell these, you have to sell these primate dot. Maybe do some for charity or young Jamie dot com. Yeah. Only the size we can talk, then it's not exclusive. You want to have the exclusive shirt with nobody else can get. I don't want anything exclusive, I'm not into that man. Alright Jeff Very much appreciate the opportunity here in clarifying. Please folks, please open mind, please. I know you want to call bullshit this times this times. To call bullshit there's times to recognize that this is a complicated issue and that we've
wait it out, as that, I'm I'm pretty convinced, appreciate it Joe and I'm done so. You might be smarter than me all right by everybody.
Transcript generated on 2019-09-27.