Welcome to the Jordan Be Petersen Podcast. You can support these podcast by donating to Doktor Peterson's Patria, on the link to which can be found in the description. Doktor, Peterson's Self Development programmes, self offering me found itself authoring, dotcom, doktor, rich higher studies. The a basis of human intelligence and Commission here with Neuro Imaging technologies to study individually, Frances and mental ability he received his phd in psychology from the Johns Hopkins University nineteen, seventy five

and his since held appointments in the interview, a research programme at the National Institute of Mental Health and the medical school, on university at the University of California had urban her right here, Sir on the editorial border board: three journals, Neuro image, intelligence and psychiatry research. He also served to yes, editor for especially Schwann Brain Imaging research for the journal intelligence. He proved its neuroscience consultation to university research groups, corporations, foundations and educational and legal professionals he's a popular sure and is appear numerous media outlets in two thousand and twelve his. Search was featured on no that science. Now have you received industry which contribute worn for the interim, society for intelligence research. In two thousand and thirteen, the teaching company invite richard- to create an eighteen lecture course called Television rain so welcome Doktor Richard higher today, and we're going to talk about the most

diverse, whom all topics I would say in social sites? Strangely enough intelligence, so Maybe we could start with a little bit of historical information on. I would like to know how you got interest, Nike research or intelligence, research. Let's say an end and sweat start without, and then we can start David diving into the nitty gritty, while really good It started in graduate school ad hoc when I really became most interested, the impersonality research started out: girls studying individual differences and personality, but just by him stands. The year I started graduate school in eighteen. Seventy one was the year one of the professors, their Julian Stanley was stepping up man he precocious, youth I won't

one of the Procureur said the very first tell em, search for mathematically precocious, kids and I got my first couple of papers- is both chapters in in. In books, Estonia was anything about this project and as long as these kids aged ten eleven twelve months, hi IRAN, S, eighteen mass, then Hopkins Fashion. And the question was how does this happen? Words? This conference and I was gonna my earliest interests in graduate school. Although I nearly completed my my dissertation, I'm personality, I took my first. Job at the National Institute of Mental Health in the literal, we're research programme in the laboratory of psychology and psychopath ideology, which, at the time

the lab director was David rose and all who had just finished in Denmark. Adoption studies of schizophrenia right right. And here is what I learned about genetics. My office. Was next door to a mighty bucks farm, who is doing both essential church, very Firstly, a MAC. And so my my early interested in individual differences, slowly morphed into first in individual differences in intelligence and and I am age they were just going- a transition from Canada, psychoanalytic orientation to ignore science orientation. And I was gonna caught up in there and so that the origin of my interest in the brain technologies to make brain measurements and later

the individual differences came right. Ok now you just write about There are signs of intelligence, candy, university press, and so when did they come out That came out really just about six months ago. So it came out, I think, in December, of two thousand and sixteen, but they tell me for publishing reasons they a two thousand and seventeen publication, and I see what I'm out of the room, I was so excited to talk to you is that you are done a very large amount of research. Especially not so much practical, lab research, but investing into the structure of intelligence and into its measurement, we we design Ninety three with us didn't mind: Daniel Higgins. We designed think what was probably there first online battery purporting to measure, the cognitive abilities associated with dorsal lateral, prefrontal cortex, Rachel hypothetically the highest ordered cognitive functions in the brain and we found much to our chagrin, I would say- and this was

painful discovery that a lot of what we have been thinking about as potentially separable. Euro psychological functions well previously classical collapsible into good, all general intelligence? You know that killer central factor that seems night cognitive abilities so was quite a shock, especially because the neuroscience are just some of the time and they still do this. Art are as assiduous in investigators of the psychiatric intelligence nature, as they should be in ten to underestimate the central power of that that initial fact, so anyway, I'm really interested into intelligence research, partly from a practical perspective too, because the Esther organizational psychology. Literature is crystal clear for complex jobs. The best predictor of long term, successes, intelligence and it's a predictor, that's probably say imagining given an hour of point. Forty

five, which is pretty decent, so let's say twenty five percent of the variants. The next best predictors conscientiousness emits pushing its limit at mopping up, ten percent of the variability in long term performance. So I q it's a colored man and yet we I make sure my students assess intelligence with everything they do, and it always ends up being a major predictor of things that you wouldn't even expect I discussed sensitivity, for example, so you discuss sensitivity is higher if you have a lower, I q key factors powerful. You just said something that I want to just make a distinction about. Talking about the key factor in when you can occur, and I too, this is common in everyday language, to talk about intelligence IQ, We called the Jew factor as well thing in a really isn't. Someone like you score is a good estimate of the gene you're right, also

clue to other aspects of intelligence and in town Jameson itself alone was a blow on. The term is only part all the universal mental abilities. Sorry, if Europe very good and say you're waiting on what day January first was in the year fifteen twenty That's a mental ability that some people have doesn't mean. You're smart, rightly see that without testing survives often there is often, but sufficiently often they have. These amazing calculate, like calculation abilities, for example, that don't seem to be manifested in spectacularly high overall intelligence or so what are you? What do you want to tell us what you want to start with the book and then walked through it. Well, you know that's it. That's that's interesting, because the book is kind A combination of things

I've learned mostly from my narrowing the gene work on intelligence and it came as a surprise. Is the first book I've ever written on downward, tired, actually from academia the black eyes in academia ready now journal papers, but Cambridge University Press called may have the series of fundamentals of neuroscience and they wanted to include intelligence and guarded. That is a major step because in talent research. Been relegated almost to the peripheral of mainstream psychology, yeah yeah methodically suspect, to say the least. Yeah, and you know the switch happen overnight from being in the main stream to being now wherefore about nineteen sixty nine before nineteen

sixty nine. Everyone who is interested in education. Was concerned about the achievement gaps right and they felt universal way? There was equalized educational opportunities, achievement? Gaps would disappear. Graphic yeah that was the head start a head start you even before forehead Start Headstart came the head start, but even For a start, there armies all these demonstration projects average one the miracle in Milwaukee in their armies, things that shows that if you really intervened in early childhood education, yes, I would at that time was called compensatory education, early childhood education terms king much later, but this idea of comparison- form educational, gloomy, took off and then

Nineteen sixty nine, the Harvard education will review, asked one of the foremost educational psychologists Arthur Johnson to write. Review of the progress, and this article nineteen? Sixty nine has become infamously. Opening sentence was essentially retrial, compensatory education, and it has yeah, and then he had a hundred pages and detailed statistical analysis of wider were knowing you couldn't demonstrate an increase in. I keep score him in any of these programmes A head start had had just begun, so headstart wasn't climbed gathered. I reviewed the literature, only a start to accede. Sadly, and basically what happened was that the so that was for those

The viewers don't know headstart, Whizzer nationwide attempt to to add additional education to the lives of DIS, disadvantaged kids, especially at the pre school level, and basically, what happens? What was that they actually did improvements in academic achievement. Initially so in great one in great, do they were performing above their peers, but then the difference in an improvement, the difference in performance zone, to decrease, and then by both the great great five agreed sex differences and disappeared completely. So there is no. I whatsoever of that of that of stable one time long term gain and cognitive abilities or where people were really hoping was that it intervene. Early enough, you get something that would sort of hot would turn into a positive feedback loop and the gains would actually advance across time and what ended up happening with the storm research. Basically,

was the conclusion that it produced no cognitive improvements whatsoever. Although more kids who went through headstart graduated from high school fewer than were delinquent, more them fewer than became pay, teenage in the teenage years and more of them went to college is, but that seem to be because they were socialized, not because they were in any way had been made smarter. So that was really tremendous disappointment because it was a bipartisan attempt to come to grips with the fundamental issues that sort of bedeviled structural poverty in the United States. No one was happy about that outcome. I can tell you this model, that Boeing Johnson published an article also said that's since I Q, increases, seems to be coming. From easy, intense environmental. Interventions mission consider the possibility that these differences have a genetic component and

really began incendiary descent How could you have searched the periphery? the reaction against that was universal. Inferiority. If you didn't write you, it's also something universally hated, but on both sides of the political spectrum, because liberal end, you know the fundamentally, as is that everybody is the same and that if you, if you distribute education, resources, property than everyone can succeed, and so loud and work out so off limits. And then on the conservative side the idea is while, if you could just off your lazy asses and get a job. There is a job for you out there and then truth of the matter, is you know you can tell me what you think about this, but this is a statistic that just absolutely shocked: staggered me when I went through the into intelligence literature. So you know it is illegal in the United States to adopt anybody,

where's Nike of Lace and eighty three and the reason for that. As you know, that Eric armed forces have been conducting intelligence research for like more than a hundred years, and that was partly because they in the way of sorting people rapidly during times of military expansion during more time, but was also because IQ test and especially in the early part of the twentieth century, were used to identify. Let's say that deserving poor who could really benefit additional educational attainment and advancement of meal and military was hoping to identify people no class strata. It could be streamed in to say officer, training, programmes and so for or or even skills. Training programmes to to move, people friendly underclass into at least the working class and maybe above then, a bloody stake in this man. They wanted to find people they wanted to certain, probably, and they wanted to do social good when they were

just trying to win a war and I'd say, which often also is a social good. But what happened was that by? I don't remember. This legislation was introduced, but it wasn't. It was in the latter part of the twentieth century, but their basic finding was that by say the nineteen. They had determined that if you had an I of less than three. There was not a damn saying that the union that the army could do the armed forces could do to transform into someone who could do something that was more productive than non productive the territorial thing about that- is that it's about ten percent of the population, and so he look at a statistic like god- and you think, oh, my god you ve got this is this: is enterprise? Is massive enterprises? Chrome, really hungry for people trades. Always there always looking for people really oriented towards take people from the underclass and lower working class and pushing them up the societal strata and during

What time there actually desperate to bring in recruits period- and their conclusion is that ten percent of the population can't be trained to do anything anything sufficiently useful make them militarily operable it's just. I just read at my judges, dropped its like you know in the United States we are by three hundred and thirty million people and. Because of the distribution about the way normal distribution of IQ scores about sixteen percent. Have I queues at eighty five or one night they're not going to graduate school, no, it means that, from from what I've read practically beats the wonderland company. Is actually gonna? Really they have a nice iq tens from the commercial perspective. You know it's actually symmetrically valid and naval late IQ levels to the job, specifically the job cadigan. Because I don't know any Eliza Concise there, not only going to graduate school,

fine. Stable job that pays wage gap now, especially even given that so many of the service jobs now require fair, high degree of computational savvy earlier built, not I'm not computation, but ability to interact with complex computational technology ass. The typical he'll ladder at a check out, market or or the till ETA Mcdonald's Mcdonald's is actually very complicated, is is often far beyond the ability of people who are on the lower end of the intelligence distribution and they claimed- I think it was wonder lick, although it might know it might have been it might have been hunt. What's his name, these new IQ researcher is an Earl Hunt. I think possibly thought what he claimed that that if you have an ideal of below ninety, it's it's difficult. It stiff difficult for you to read well enough to translate what you're reading into action. So you can

actually read instructions and follow them. You don't have that level of literacy. That's him up. He asked so. I would say that in the United States, this virus- Sixteen percent translated. Fifty one million people right, including thirteen million children who are in school right. This is a very difficult problem, though I knew what had passed away, no, I'm pretty well. He also, I would say that there is this cognitive. Segregation in society which is applied. The channels Murray, makes the ass an When I often ask your Wenzel Last time you had someone over for dinner was. A college glared without was something new

in her in stone, wrote about in their book the bill curve which really struck, because I read that book twice. Unlike most of the people who decided- and you know, were one of the things that they pointed out- and there was look, the the typically the typical educated person thinks that someone isn't very bright if they have an idea of the Americans. If d so bustle graduate graduate level a Phd Level Research Institute, It's like a hundred and fifty there's theirs as many people at a hundred and fifty above as there are at eighty five and below it's a minority, the population and that's the top. Fifty percent- and you know That'S- that the dollar undergraduate rights encourages people have see. I'm a clinical psychologist and I've dealt with had I rages in the low eighties and try to and and jobs and tried to train them, and I have some real knowledge about the stunning gap between people at the lower end of the IP distribution in the high and in its

it's no bloody wonder people hate IQ, research and intelligence research because it reveals a have seriously tat dismal facts about the credible range of ability among human beings? Well yeah. Along with this, It's true and, moreover, I would add to this people in universities. Fascism and cutting brand stones. Have a hard time understanding. What do what everyday life is like? If you like you over eighty five and making your way you're wedding, independently you're making away in the world, but it is a challenge It is a really I mean just just just barely begins to describe, and I had a client who He probably me I'd like you under eighty Nonverbal, version of it anyways and he was

distinguishable in physical appearance. From from, let's say, I hate to use the frame normal person, but it does nothing. Market marked him out about particularly intellectually impaired. You know, and I tried at one point this is this- is this was so so telling me. I got a memory, an inch of voluntary job by the way is very difficult to target. We get a volunteer job than a real job because you have to do police screening and all sorts of things in the selection process is just as extreme, but eventually ended up getting a job in a bike store, Backslash Bookstore and at that place couldn't hold him once the subsidy programme had expired, and then I got him in How about a charity and his job was to fold letters into so they can be put it envelopes. Well, that sounds easy, except He also had a bit of a motor tremor and you know it took me about thirty hours. Train him to fold up a piece of paper with sufficient procedure.

So that it can be put in an envelope rapidly, so that the envelope wasn't so mangled We get stuck in the automatic sorting machine and these high performance demands on him till he had a whip through those letters pretty quickly and then sometimes the letters would have a photograph appended to them, it was staple dawn, and they weren't always stapled on in the same place? So then he had to calculate how to fold the paper over the photograph without bending the photograph in precise, so they would still sit in the envelope and then he had to separate the french letters from the end letters and associate them with the proper envelopes and like that level of complexity. Just did him in a moment, let me say two things about this. One is, I hope, common. Hence in the other is pretty provocative. The common sense that we had to be very careful when we have these discussions not to give value The human dignity of people will argument

upper, ended the distribution and interest. One criticism that I think it is fair and sometimes in these conversations it sounds like devaluing people have the learning and the distribution. We have to be very careful that we don't do that human life has dignity, and I q is not the most important thing that defined guess, ravines associated with wisdom. Not necessarily associated with truth or with courage, with many virtues that aim of all how right you'll, like it at all, with being likeable nor artist. He had no time for many among all the psycho match across the psycho. Major relationship between intelligence and She had just as a zero. Why did we have to make that point? Yes, I think I agree. I grew larger and trying to make the point about

difficult, it is for people who are on the lower end of the cognitive spectrum to survive in an increasingly complex cognitive least, sophisticated environment where jobs are just disappearing yes, absolutely now, let's asked the question: is there anything that could be done about that? Well, western society is tried very hard with a number of environmental impact, had. We based interventions, the childhood education by the way, You said that the literature and organizational psychology is very clear. The winner, it is equally clear and educational psychology, oh yeah, what the relationship between IQ learning more powerful than the relationship between I do. Your job performance that's right, which is kind of common sense or matches our common sense. But you know, if you put, it bunch of variables

to a regression equation to predict academic achievement, and we have all these school cloudy variables and teacher quality variables in Cardiff, the variables of the students and what find is the teacher. Variables and the quality of the school variables to gather barely account for tat. Percent of the wreck. Yeah. Oh, I know it's terrible, here. While you know, when I talked to the guy, who ran admissions at Harvard taught at Harvard, for while his name was Dean Wit Lord, he is a really smart guy. I really like the and you know he was- Let's say he was on the right side of the human race and he was really trying to figure out how to run the admissions policy at Harvard. So little did the best for everyone concerned. He had run in it. Resting series of analysis that I don't believe you ever published in one of them was well. Let's say you segregate the Harvard population into the relatively low iq you so maybe they? have an idea of a hundred and thirty in all, ended

What did we hire? You, kids? You are pushing up towards two hundred and sixty. So you are to competing hypotheses there. One would be that the lower right, you, kids, come to Harvard this remarkable environment and make me an end. They they thrive because- hi, educational quality, so well that they close the gap between them and the one? Sixty kids and that's just completely wrong what happens as you put both those groups there, both very very highly selected, but some you know in this in a sort of Superman rage. Intellectually, what happens is the gap just gets bigger and bigger they progressed through university at its I dreaded example of that top Matthew Principle that the economist talk about which is known to those who have more will be given in from those who have nothing. Everything will be taken its very, very no wonder people dislike this research itself

it's so anti in it in its essential. In its essential structure, I wanted to make a second point that I said would be provocative if you want Do something about this Are we trying to a bunch of interventions, earnest well funded long term interventions don't seem to work, no science has been excluded from discussions about what to do about this and I believe that neural science, that progress in neuroscience research has the potential to really drama, actually increase. The g factor Rob that's an optimistic statements. You're looking for some support for that one, it's optimistic and perverse shop. Just as a thought experiment I can tell you why I believe it is possible, but will firstly,

When I tell you the thought, experiment. The reason I am optimistic instead be it is weak. Because of the high heard ability of the g factor, the at me Jeanne time, while genes work through biology, even at environment, interacts with that. But Jim you have haven't neurobiological system its complex but as you begin to understand it, you can tweak it. This is what all medicine was doing out there, trying to understand they know biology, slash genetic basis of our and our diseases. Why so they can fix it when you go to the doctor you're going because your biology is broken your biology, fixed think about the boy now. No one conceptualize is no Cuba. Is a disease and it's a little dangerous, but to the east. To which lower

Q has genetic Would you not against lords ass it's to which you might be able to find out how that works. How best This system is- figure out how to tweak that system to increase IQ. It's not. Science fiction only met a plausible sequence and that's what the problem is very complex, see its assurance, but I also think it a finite set of problems, not an infinite. Several problems ignore physicists. Its businesses can figure out. Why happen during the first nanoseconds of the big bang we consume We figure out what the neurobiology of intellect is and how to tweak it. So I think that's possible so now, let's do it bought experiment

Let us imagine, there's an iq pill, and I mean that metaphorically, not merely appealing you could take like putting but like heavy floor dated water. Just gonna raises day mental health of everybody do nicely had that for you, but just a imagine what it would be like. If we shifted the distribution of IQ fifteen points in the high end. So now the average iq I like stand how like he was completed, learning and everything but the boilers. No one would have an idea less than a hundred right well I'll, be right. Everyone could reason sufficiently together. Oh, a reasonable job. You know that's a good question What would you call the perverse part of me ass funny? I was

Turkey, when my graduate students we'd be looking out the determinants of male attractiveness by the personality of female viewers and click. Ok, So what we found is that there are some personality effect, so extroverted, enthusiastic women tend to rate men, Joe speaking as more attractive than introvert, an introverted, less enthusiastic women So so there are some just straight personality effects, but the biggest effect by far we found was the proclivity of of many in general to rate men as less attractive as the women's IQ, increased and so anything that we don't know is what price we pay for. Four accelerated. I q from up from a broader perspective. You know, because I knew that there is some evidence, and you can tell me what you think about this, because I know that this reasonable evidence that the average iq of the ask analogy,

The population is about fifty points higher than the standard population which cars kind of mixed, The thought experiment that require an experiment, real life experience is equivalent to the one you laid out but asking nosey. Jews also tend to suffer from a host of neurological diseases that seem to be associated with increased now plasticity, and so to me, it's often its hard to gain on one front without losing on another. You know I mean that's the evolutionary conundrum, obviously, but we call at this if you'll just the story right One thing you have to be back and everything else that kind of balance it out here will job speaking you do pay a price for Europe, for your exceptional is no Well, that's true because at the end, the Julian Stanley studies of the map report, cautious kids, essentially found not only wording smart, but they were more mature than their age pierce working with power. They were physically were fit. I mean

who's gonna be out. I soldier, I know that's what I mean. Is that also might be true, because one of the things that can interfere with IQ is poor health and import nutritional quality, All of that. I mean it doesn't look like it's that easy to increase. Argue that looks like it's pretty easy to decrease it yeah. I forget those those things have to be pretty Extreme there they are effect and those tax may not be permanent actual, where some studies of deprivation of people who suffer so four deprivation during the Second World WAR that suggested the most. Www severe deprivations didn't have a lasting effect will be offered tough. So I'm inclined to agree with that. So so, have you seen any animal experiments, except it'll work that you regard is compelling Mitchell's, something like that.

Transformation of animal conversion into our into something? That's that's. That's the tire order that that you regard compelling not sure what you mean by their. Certainly, animal work that shows you doing extracted de facto from carbon to task given to various animals right so absorbed. I was wondering is: has there been any evidence that regard as credible showing that could be that that sick, so called animal g factor extracted. Anything- should tell our readers do the way you extract the g factor, and I'm going to say it very. Very rapidly is imagine you'd take up a randomly said and ably selected set of two hundred questions that require abstraction of one form or another to solve, and then you give those two hundred questions. Two hundred people and you some scores and you rank order them. You get something. That's roughly equivalent there to a g factor to roughly that

I would say it a little bit differently. Gentle came on the same page. If you think of all the dish. Mental abilities and devise a test for each one of them, this test away a lot of people across the range of ability. What you'll find it? The score is on all those tests are positively correlated with each other surgeon see that all test of mental mobility have something I'm sure, that's agreed, is this g factor general ability to reason and some individual tests, have more energy lobby men, other individual tests right so slowly, and test of abstract reasoning tenant. Hi rejuvenated. Setting Repeat the following numbers back to me: three: seven to one six: five

text? A not a berry highway be loaded mental ability to be able to do that, but if I gave you a string like that and said repeat them to me backwards, the June loaded ability- because you are true formation, Europe, while the other thing to say about that too, is that the positive relationship between us, those multiple assessments that you describes actually quite high right right. That's the thing is the dead and will factor not only exists across domain, calling ability, but it tends to account for a substantial amount of the of the ability in each of those domains. Rise kind of, like ouch grudges, came like a black hole for intelligence reach. Everything keeps falling into it. Doesnt addressing writer put up because now we have visa, Juno Wide Association studies finding these bits of dna That are related to

eight awaiting factor of intelligence, which is the key factor to what they call. Educational attainment variables who saw attainment is so high requirements with IQ is essentially the same thing, so we really moving why when I was in graduate school, the question was Is there a genetic component to intelligence, not true, This kind of dna analysis trying to find bits of dna. Going to be related to what we call intelligent right. You tested were, or were the de facto no cease to exist. To be hundreds of them. Training effect which will make the ultimate story extremely complicated, but, as I said before, I think it's a finite set of problems right right at the end of that

a glance of solving those problems. I think there's but you will know how to increase like you and I think it's. Good thing to be able to do that No, I said publicly that more intelligence is better than last time a criticized, because that implies that people with less intelligent art is worthwhile. Why won't be very careful that I dont believe that murder lives is more the accurate way of thinking about it lies in a narrow range of possibilities an opportunities, that's right and, in my view my political bias is there for governments have a responsibility to help those people and an end. A lot of government programmes are I'm gonna? Do it because your job training requires a certain level of joy, and also write, like my law, argue clients. They used to

What are the government agencies that were designed to help people find employment? And you know the typical response was well just go up your cv and distributed it's like you, you just like. I can't use a computer can't type I dont know to save II is cycle. It's a non starter, no three counts, as I saw a nicer fifty one million people with Iqs under five, a new about forty three million people living in poverty. Do you think I was then diagrams intersect jam you all. We should also be clear about this, because it is so politically suspect. Is that it's not like it's it's it's it self evident that people who have less competitive capability are likely to end up poor because there are serious conflict

problems in life that we set them that they have a difficult time dealing with end. They can't learn is quickly, and so the relationship between poverty and intelligence is self evident if you're willing to think it through for any of time. Doesnt mean that everybody whose rich that is it doesnt mean that everyone who is rich is smart and it doesn't mean that everyone who is whore is stupid. What it took to be blue but what it does mean is that if your intelligent you're much more likely to become financially successful- and I think it was the Bernstein current starting Murray. I think that the calculations back in the balcony then indicated that if you imagine that you could, you a fairy godmother in- and you have a new born, ran child in front of you and you can grant them three steps deviations above the mean in terms of wealth at birth or you can and three standard deviations above the mean in terms of I q at birth, and then you want.

To determine which would work better for them by the time they were. Forty, any astronaut was quite clear. Is that I keep trumps wealth driver if it really did predict paused in future? she asked here I mean that's, why I'm so interested in the concept of increasing iq, increasing the g factor, not just I keep score, but real one hundred this reasoning ability so some people tried to teach college students critical thinking yeah. I think that's a good thing is you: can you can think critically? So It's the batter exactly. You know You know it may sound to your listeners. I just want to take a long moment out here. It may sound to you list your side, you guys want deprecating about what it's like to be small ones like to be not so smart. I the point on this item, this moral science researcher intelligence in what I hope to achieve. By reading the book This shows that the gene-

netteke aspects are not deterministic, it's the opposite. Probable listing so the extent to which something like intelligence is genetic, in my view, is the step two, which will learn how to change for the better right. Well, that's definitely because people do tend to think about a biological fact this determination to combat that's a mistake because they can be shifted. So with regards to the animal studies, so you know you pointed out that you can you can come up with an iq, like estimate, first say a rat and Have you seen anything that indicates? I don't care how it's done through training or or new, chemically or or or by I'd: promoting brain function different ways. However, you might do it. It's actually is indicated to you that there is way of biologically enhancing the general cognitive ability even of an animal, as anything of some credible, just breeding. Run a maze

you're than other my his together. You get It is indeed able to learn how to run a maze faster, but that work from nineteen eighty strike a review. Listen in the book there some soon, technologies that have been developed. Where are you You can turn part our big rat brain on and off will see what happens. This is not yet dinner. As far as I know, to learning but interesting way, there human studies underway with things he's gone. Trams, cranium magnetic stimulation and media electrical wasting low voltage ways to stimulate parts of the brain and Some interesting experiments now being dealt with humans to see if you can improve the warning or reasoning ability.

U I added external all intelligence, which has come about prime spot for intelligent researchers to publish an all aspects of intelligence, emeralds, starting to put together a special issue experiments. The increase reason, inability, menacingly visa techniques stimulating the brain, Have you seen you ve seen some positive things with regards to low level electrical stimulation because that's also be news tat. You know what's more region, I don't know, but is a better research. We need to treat depression. For example, and I do coverage in the book of the studies that were published up until the time, I wrote the book and caution, people they haven't been replicated yet right right right but we're on the way I mean this is this is an evolving area? That's gonna be very exciting and students are listening to those pike. Ass thinking about no signs your psychology, this kind of-

experiments www new phase that intelligence, research or you can do expect. As I said, are completely ethical, and relatively intrusive and Missus Gilroy gonna change everything now because it will shift in town. Research from basically cycle metric correlations. He asked what Neuro Imaging has done, which is working. I moved away from this cycle metrics and then the primary cycle metric swarms with measurable aspects at the brain like Lucas, about function of the amount of grey matter, white matter number of white men? fibres and will always fabulous connections, rightly move things, got an early on methods, but phase- is now moving into this new phase of actual

stimulating the brain to It will prove learning a memory and the reasoning all the while doing it, image it see what happens. Adding dna to what I mean come on now. This is a great time. Greed during the research in this area. Right right, while this mocked me I'm me. I looked for awhile because our bavaria- arrested in improving human performance, measuring it and improving it and down. So I look And I'm doing that also in conjunction with businesses, because I, like things to have a practical Landon, you know I looked to find out what the research indicated with regards to improvement of intelligence and most people, I found was not so much improvement as conservation is that if you exercise both heroically end and with weightlifting that that can help you maintain you're on

intelligence across for longer across your mice, bankers. It take tends to decline rather precipitously as you age, which is one of the more dismal things that you also discover with IQ research starts to decline when you're in early twenties, in its cut off in your downhill all the way along exercise really helps actual shirts. Its preservation, which is pretty, and what that might see our provision is a big deal. Man, but enhancement would Good bye. You know this thing about an I q peel, coming up with a way to manipulate your biological neurobiology of your brain. To hear regarding intellect There is a breakthrough in this. It will come either from I was most research- was oh energy, research trying to prevented the slow decline of your mental faculties as you age, especially food, fluid intelligence, right were trying to

reverse the ravages of Alzheimer's disease. Neural chemical prostitutes right now, like you seem to be quietly tightly tightly linked to this is everything we could talk about, because so I know that certain biological markers that I q is loosely associate with. So you know, it's fragment. Fretted predict in a fragmentary manner. So I know that even thing as simple as simple reaction time. How fast you can push the button when light comes on is correlated with IQ with with fluid intelligent, and about point two and having a bigger head is slightly related, especially when you Gregg for body size and so is brain mass and so is thickness of the mileage she's on individual neurons, and so, though, these there's these micro markers of

You might think about them as neurological integrity that seem to predict IQ, but you'd be doing Neuro imaging, and I noticed up on that. I haven't looked down for a couple of years. So what have the nerve? matures found about brain structure? function in relationship to intelligence that you think is compelling an interesting why'd. You asked us because up as I was finishing, the manuscript further book will win the day. After I turned it in. I have asked for back, because it was very interesting study published by the Google Yale use a fairly sophist I d like to look at why matter connections functional. Structural white man, connections and functional connections in the brain determining how one brain area is

functional your structuring, structurally related to all other brain areas, you can put up a map of truth, his brain dead shows brain imaging from Emma high technology how there wine is interconnected. Most paper said these interconnections our sole reliable within a person that are like fingerprints. And not only that, but the fingerprints can predict. I too am always density of connections, density. Interconnections or something like that. It was more worth something more specific going on. They can be the density of connections structurally, how much white matter connects this year? add to that area.

There are certain brain areas where you have a lot of white matter come in and a lot of white men are going out to other parts of the brain are called hogs and there are no steady, lesser connections. And so it makes matters. It certainly makes sense that being able to make measurements of violent connectivity, would be related to things like intelligence. You remember what some of the major ups were like our: they idea a viable, as also as neuro anatomical areas with specific countries. Definitely nor a camp. It now anatomical arrogance and though the you might expect, but they what was Fighting to me is the map on two way: a model of brain, how origins relationships, but I had developed with my colleague

let's see young and published in two thousand and seven and was called the fun integration, Jerry, rupee, fit I'll do intelligence and the the others, the connections between the parietal law, which is here and there, vital area are the key elections intelligence. Jason choice will tell us where you you'd derive their particular theory, As you know, people have suggested say, alternatively, that the system of higher order entail This is basically let's say the dorsal lateral, prefrontal cortex, or something like that. So why, specifically the connecting the connection patterns between frontal and bridle areas where this article Two thousand and seven was a review article. Where we took every single brain imaging study, we could find Klute at a measure of intelligence

thirty seven. Such studies at the time, including some I have done as early as one thousand nine hundred and eighty eight and run, done with much larger samples. Just come in quality, the banana lies. The results the sea, My brain areas came up in common across these studies using effort measures, different image, in tat, books found that there was not a bad I'll bring areas were equally distributed, intended to be concentrated in the fund and the world, but also We found areas in the acceptable open the temporal lobe, not one so related to challenges, and so we develop this model, about how information would be processed in how information would flow around this sad arriving. There were eighteen areas, only sites

Hi high on intelligence DES would have some combination of these areas. You didn't need all of them can a working together, but some people would have this combination. Some people have that combination and if you make measurements and about the way information was flowing around these areas with it now. Do you like them and meet our insufferable ground will show changes in the brain millisecond by milliseconds, might be able to. Actually, estimate iq from violence. Two thousand and seven people were trying to do this with multiple regression equations it never really replicate. Independent replication still go very far as this apple sizes relative, smiling having the bananas individual deference it yet, but these We're techniques used Now the techniques of calculating brain connectivity

seem to advance the something dramatic. Was there a map between the notes were identified in this recent research in the areas that you guys had identified with your overarching analysis. Yes to the way when I look at the data it seem like There is considerable overlap and some of the authors who we did not know personally were made. Their papers noted that their findings, workers system without heads. Any hemispheric differences Well, yes, there were more on the left and the right, but that there are also areas on the right is well and with these areas handed the areas that are also related to language and memory and attach- These boys, fundamental cognitive processes of

language and memory and tension seemed a baby. We architecture, I watch intelligence, Israel's right hate, you, here's a question that I have been able to figure out. I've looked at the attention, literature law and the more I look at the attention. Literature, the more I find it difficult to distinguish it from the intelligence. Literature me attention and intelligent seemed be different things and we certainly used the words in common parlance as different, but I haven't really been able to as we wanted to establish a battery of attention, related tasks that were independent of G loaded, ah cognitive abilities, I have seen anybody. Marriage out and so do do you? What do you think the differences? to end the capacity to pay attention, which also seems to me Socio, with conscientiousness by the way which isn't associated with IQ. But I mean, what's the relationship between intent, tension and intelligence as far as you are concerned,

studies have been done already take calling to variables the elemental cognitive tasks is what they call him. They reveal basic things that cognitive psychologist, like the study I to study beetling rife the study, warning and memory. They don't want to address why some people learn faster than other people or why some people can remember more than other people must accordingly Psychology stunningly study what's com and everybody but if you look at these elemental cargoes of tasks, you can extracted a Jew factor of cognition goods. I'd be correlated with any cycle metric, Jean Valjean, sure bodies. More than attention memory ass acts of memory are more weight into. The ginger factor processing speed is correlated right, sure, intentions. It is also quite awaited, so yeah I gotta have this idea

from being apparent watching Hence grow up that people therefore in there. Baseline of attention when the last specifically paying attention this mighty, consciousness Sawyer. Who could walk into a museum for an hour. Come out and you say the genuine. So why did you see and you get a whole long thing And yes, the argument? What'd you see where I you get a much less rich. Explanation of vote on it. I've always thought about them. The difference in resolution of the world's well, we'll call it what you will, but you know there are these differences. And I believe that we now she studied consciousness with brain imaging with me. A friend like Al Qaeda, whose an anesthesiologist we did the first imaging studies were we what normal volunteers in and

my gave them anesthetic drugs to knock out completely while they underwent brain imaging and we have different levels of Anastasia. We were trying to see what part of the brain is. The last part of the brain to turn off when you lose consciousness, and then why did you find anything that you can make sense out of from because then, of course, that's obviously an extraordinarily interesting question media. The collapse of these networks is how This is the real export. Analysing these published a whole series of papers and be the mechanism of consciousness is still the great Nobel Prize winning when that that's my interpretation, literature to its like it. It's it's such a mystery that it it seems a flexible in some sense. What what is good about The imaging stop here. You gotta study, this experimentally, you get, you can put people The different levels of consciousness and bring them out at will and see what

the brain reacted. So profound seems to be an important one and I'm thalamus connections and eat. Understanding the carrot where is the man aesthetics, and they work. They have different mechanisms of action in the brain, yet they produce the same cod glancing consciousness right. That's it that's a very interesting things to say about it. I know with its alembic what what is it cortical, polemic Lou, Well, I mean there's a guy named. What's his name, my god, it's close to that. I am afraid I haven't got it right. He suggests that one of them One of the consequences of psychedelic drugs is to decrease the gating of that Philammon court. Well and end that that's one of the mechanisms whereby that expanded at this sense of consciousness emerges as a concept in Iraq as a consequence of it.

Rotation with us with the psychedelic end of the pharmaceutical universe, the Irish action and not in the bar. Where I talk about dismissal mood these studies and try to relate the concept that if you can turn consciousness off you should be able to turn it on where we know anesthesiologists do this. It will, even though they don't understand what they're doing right right can't tell you why it works, but then, can you use if, if an aesthetic drugs, how to dissociate the brain and yea seems to be, while you were decisive of the fatal walks. Can doses fairly.

Very low doses of anesthetic drugs cause just enough this, in addition to increase your creativity And I don't think this experiment has ever been dying. I know you see something similar that sometimes reported with people who developed front of temporal dementia at exactly right, always that as an that's, that's out a very strange where as your brain deteriorates, your creativity increase is because so much a brain function seems to be inhibitory. I don't know Disease, that produced This increases the intelligence right. No, no. I've never heard that in oh yeah. The other thing that's been, so you tell me what you think about this man. I was curious for a while about these companies like luminosity, because when we developed original prefrontal tat tasks, they were too

stay with the kind of have a game like element, you know, and we kind of thought. Well, maybe if you have people practice doing them, they would obviously get better at the specific task, because that is what people do. But then, if you had people practise a whole bunch of them, maybe they would get better at them, at the entirety of the task in a way that would generalised to other too, there are measures like the ravens progress of major cities, which is a good measure of human intelligence, but that never works, and course luminosity claim that they were able to reduce enhancement general intelligence, but by all appearances, appearances, that's been an that's been a dismal failure is well it's it's. It is very strange, in some sense that general fact your doesn't seem to be something that you can actually improve by practice right. Well, you know what the hell, what wine I can't just I just don't get that it doesn't make sense, but you're suddenly

I don't know about me I'll bet, but I am in the Guinness Book of records. The gamers addition because of my study, my brain imaging study of terrorists- and I did a brain, imaging study of tatters and those publishing monkey mainly true Why do I study of warning? I want to see what happened in the blame. He's the one after you want something yeah and back and ninety ninety one. When I was doing this, nobody had passed a computer's. Nobody in tatters, Computer games were but they heard today right and I want him- the egghead software store when they had softwares twice it'll just open asked. The guy's there about I needed something where I kids studied one after they want something. Do we simple yet they shut was gained tapirs, it had just come in, they just opened the box, they put it up on the computer and I thought, This is really part of good, simple below,

enormous learning curve, and we Brian Cowen students, small number accounts things and we showed him how to play tatters. They practice for a few minutes. Injected the radioactive glucose for positron, emotion, demography and we did pets and studies of them? That We first day they play tapirs for thirty two minutes. They then practice Every day we had come to my office because nobody gonna busy at all came to my office five days a week for about four weeks they practising they got so good an address your games moving faster. We, yes, amazing how good people can get it. You put you can probably by human beings, could do you know it's. I've watched people do that sort of thing is just absolutely unbelievable how good they can get out. I got really good. We stand on the second tie up and we found that

even though the game was faster harder when they had long how to do it, they used less glucose about Rick came so now there was a case. I knew that research. I read that research now. What do you think about them now? The programme is, I can't remember this. Research came from because also read at approximately the same time, studies that appeared to claim- and I think this was really by our common Goldberg in his book, honour on hemisphere specialization for route end and novelty respectively, that as you, when you first start to learn something novel, and I think this was demonstrated for good, people who were listening, they were danish native speakers who are listening to Danish in reverse and they use very large part. Of the brain when they were listening to Davison reverse, but if they were listened The danish gravity spoken, they use very small specified parts of the brain were located in the latter Erna in the back part of them of the left hemisphere

and there was another group of researchers who were demonstrating that, as you learned, the degree of activation decreased added, shifted from the right to left added shifted from front to the back and it got smaller and smaller that is with that decreased glucose utilization is about the same phenomenon. I am thinking As I said, we were the first to shower and we had done once one imaging studied before this tatters study, which was violated the hook. Smart about weight with scores on a test They abstract reasoning, hygiene, loaded, Tessier maidens. They had taken the tent, during the imaging some of that what brain areas war, while than we did find some brain areas. But the really interesting surprising thing was the correlation between the squirrels glucose metabolic rate was always negative I really good on the test. The warder glucose man about red and now is

a statement about this idea of brain function, say that there's been a lot of search on. The net had to be a complicated then because nothing about the brain is simple write that down. It does seem to make perfect sense than scale is associated with doing more, with less it makes sense now nobody predicted it in your eyes. Look I understand, I that's that that researchers to that research stood out for me in a very, very ha when in a very striking manner, sign up together this thing about that. You raised about practicing on different kinds of TAT two things about tactics, today's spatial planning ahead the tension, There are a lot of elemental cognitive test

necessary. Was fine motor control willing necessary to to do well, I'm tattersall toward it really well, and so the terrorists company, found my research some years later and asked if I be when they try to replicate it with more modern imaging, which of course I was willing to do so- a funded and we found announced that a pesky reuse, functional MRI in Structural MRI Gulf, fine, like we found with the wood Pascal areas, where asked teenage girls with very limited gaming experience tat risks there brain activity decreased, but we also found. From the structural mri that there were increases in grey matter

and they really interesting damage the areas where they were increases and grey matter did We will work at all the areas that function will decrease terrific storm, estrange, yellow things are always more complicated than you hope them to be. But I can tell you that time I did a brain imaging study, We always found the exam. The opposite of what we expected models that sounds to me like you know, you might actually be a b are operating as a real scientist without any things are so damn complicated than its really difficult to guess. To begin with. I went to one of my three law said: I base the book on one number. One is no, about the brain, is simple one

to me. No one study is definitive and lower number three, as it takes a long time to sort out all the various studies to see. What's consistent and one establishes a reliable weight of evidence because a select, let me point out a different track momentarily, and maybe this would work but better. But you know I'm always curious about the let's say, the practical implications of scientific research. Both at a personal level, familiar level social level. All of those things you know so I mean one of you things that I'm planning to do in the near future is to launch a website where that will enable people to assess themselves with what we ve developed. A scale called the big five aspects, scale the breaks, the big five down into ten aspect, each of which which provide some additional high resolution and useful descriptions. Personality. So you better go there and find out what you're personalities like you barely compare yourself to other people who you know

to find out where you're similarities, differences are one of the things we ve been thinking about. Doing as well is putting on the same side, a real iq test night nicely validated, probably focusing on fluid intelligence, because it's a little bit like less linguistically complex to do so, but maybe measuring verbal intelligence and then showing people. The strata of occupations in which there are likely to find maximal success, because you know from four for me, given that I know that the people vary in their conduct of abilities tremendously, in that that's actually an important determinant of their life I'll come. It seems to me so that say something has started, and I give around two hundred and fifty, and so you could say, look I know you're pretty damn smart Europe, Europe above eighty five percent and the general population, you you, could you cry you pretty damn good job as an undergraduate universe

if you're also discipline right, if your he hit the books, hard you're, gonna you're, going to come out in the top portal of Europe assuming that you're not at a spectacularly success, spectacularly selective university, but you're, going to have a much more difficult time as a master student and phd level stuff is gonna, be you're gonna, be pushing you're lucky to really master that. But you know you could be here's a here's, a domain, What would you call industrial organizational activity where you can really be in the top ten percent up? You know it's like, So if you have an idea of a hundred and fifty like, you might make one bang up plumber and you can ever spectacularly successful Here is a plumber and maybe as a manager of other plumbers and all of that and I mean I actually happened to be a real. If it's you now do of the trade, so I serve you don't think about is something better, let alone,

quality or most earnest occupation in the least. But we would we would like to tell people. Ok, here's hairs here's a here's, an intellectual domain- that's probably too high for you to be successful without working insane ours too, to two to close the gap, because you can do that with the same work up to some some limited degree. But it seems to me that the logical thing to do at least in part two give people a sense of what their advantages and limitations are and then save them. Ok, we'll, given that here is a place than you could go where you could be optimally successful, and so you know that's gonna might take from a policy perspective. Let Sabre like one of you thought about. You know the massive diversity in intellectual ability me. What are the implications from a policy perspective? As far as your concern writing

occasional games is clearly one eye. She did some consulting them. Some research for non profit the Johnson Oconnor Foundation, which is the location and testing that debt Gee, but they have their own battery of tests. They bring someone in a new set of data of cognitive tests and from mad give some advice about what times or professions match their accounts. Its strengths and weaknesses, and I should get some brain imaging, a mere tacit was burden sharing, interesting stuff. Do you think they do? Did you think seek? It gets its hard to do the psychological properly with regards to vocational guidance, because we don't really know we don't have any- handle on how to classify jobs into their various subjects like John Hall, and has done some good work doing that, but but

there are so many jobs in its hard to figure out why? What makes two jobs the same or similar in all I was there when how it was there, and some of my friends were graduate students work for him and I wonder about the occasional testing is very powerful and, as you know it, that's more his his scales and cattle. Most into more personality, dementia about? That's it? You want that. Well, that's exactly nexus that we want to play out. It's like! Ok, because there is raised, I know people have been mapping Harlin's, home and job categories, onto the big five and with a fair bit of success, you know and we're hoping that the different creation down to the two ten levels of personal. They will provide even more precision but but with more general policy. Let okay, so fine. So reasonable vocational counselling. That's a good idea. When does it start you start junior high. I d: do it

Europeans do and start track people into trades and and and higher education. That kind of early age, the Europeans, to have had great success with their swords? Certainly germans in particular. Yes- it is reasonable to look at, but the problem in the United States. There are so many problems with the way we conceptualize education, the whole idea of tracking I don't know how it is in Canada, but in the United States, this idea of tracking as a very negative balance. Do it your son, we're getting the smart kids into one. One learns set of classes. Nevertheless, markets in dollars and then education there's been a tendency, respond towns in the United States too

that gives long funny, John or so you don't want homogeneous group space time, learning ability, nor why? Because it so funny, because the people say that, with regard to two, let's say academic achievement, but they play exactly the opposite stunt when it comes to such things, as has childhood sports in also at football, four eggs Well, it's like will pay less segregate, like abilities, like you, don't have the people whose stumble around on the field dropping the ball all the time playing with the top in quarterbacks thinks, there's a problem with that. They will every one learns from everyone else in that situation. So to me it be speaks more. A refusal to admit to the stark reality that there are massive cognitive differences between people and to try to act.

Start to address that with some degree of seriousness and the serious should be something like ok. Well, let's look at the bottom, fifteen percent of the population cognitive. We speak it s like what the hell can we do for those people, that's going to be useful, and you know like the guy that I was telling you about. I was trying to think of some way that he could find respectable and productive and relatively stable position in society. That would be useful, and I thought there was a couple of things he could do like one of the things he could have done. I think he could have been encouraged, let's say too, to collect trial, in the downtown area like it could have been assigned a city block and- and it could have been said to him look your job is to keep this damn city block clean, here's, a bag, here's a step you get up in the morning! You go do this. It's like makes everybody's life more pleasant. It's a valuable contribution,

something you could do with a certain degree of pride and it and there is a socially valuable end of it. Now what happens in Toronto? Is the people drive around these vacuum? Cleaner machines on sidewalks and pick up the this scrap paper and all about it? That actually turns out to be a very competently demanding job, because, while you have to pay her, attention. You can't run over people, you have to have decent social skills and you know it's complicated, but it might nice to see but weak, but we're not mature enough to have a discussion like this ass, a society we, want to say is like ok. While there is a group of people who are going to be able to compete in the in the cognitive workplace, you're, not gonna, do it and theirs

actually lots of them and we're not going to say their lazy and we're not gonna, say they're, not looking for work. When I say that really say, look, we need to find occupations that have public utility, the dark just make work projects that people of that level of abstract past could actually perform, but I don't think we have the majority. Have that conversation? We don't you the economics, and so I would go even a little trouble laughter view and I would say, there's nothing wrong with make work programmes. To allow people. How did you do to me with dignity that option, but you also have this interesting experiments being proposed and the men on the man you all income yeah, well, that what worries me because see there's a couple of things about that when that concerns me, because you know so we're having a conversation here were taking on differences night, you seriously

but the problem with the guaranteed annual income issue. I think one of the problems- and I am not denying its potential utility- it's something I think we have to be experimentally, determined and all of that, and maybe it could replace a plethora of less efficient social welfare programmes. But you know it isn't obvious to me it's obvious to me that there is a substantial proportion of the population. I would say it's probably find, percent that would destroy themselves instantly if you gave them a guaranteed annual income and they would do it because a very low and conscientiousness for example, and very impulsive and like I've, worked with many guys, often ex cocoa Alex you we're, after not all that high on the end of the cargo distribution, but very, very low in conscientiousness, hiding passivity and those guys were absolutely fine, as long as they were flat broke.

I tell you as soon as they had money they were done. It was like three days in the bar cocaine binge face down in the ditch. And then they were fine until they got money again, and so I dont the problem with the guaranteed annual income solution is that it all and is not live by bread alone. Let saying that if you have money- and you have things to do, then you have a life. But if you must have money. You don't have a life. When I look at you I am a very narrow winds on this, Well, I know about the big social policies in me. I don't know anything about that. More than anybody else have opinions like everybody. Mine there or is true intelligence more is better than less. You have more, doesn't make you a better person. Doesn't democracy does maybe likeable doesn't make you can't you does it doesnt solve the problems of the world, but if.

Can do something to increase intelligent generally, I went out with in some measure, toward a the. Why are these these very complex problems so imagine the homelessness problem, some, the portion of chronically homeless people had schizophrenia. The schizophrenia is Genetic disorder nobody knows what the genes are or how they work, but it's pretty clear, there's a genetic component: if you can find the genes figure out what they do in common. With real good treatment of black shores, firstly, as a friend and possibly to for schizophrenia, dad directly- is gonna help alleviate the homeless problem right. So I dont know what to do about the homeless. But if you figure out what to do about schizophrenia, that's gonna!

have some impact. Yes, it's basically, I will use you know your claim to some degree. Is that these more complex, The problem should be decomposed into isolated micro problems and specific solutions should be sought for them, and that certainly strikes me as an appropriate approach because I use different, not everyone has the same reason. No, no! That's for sure. That's for sure have not everyone's pour over the shame. For the same reason, by any stretch of the imagination that poverty is doesn't have one car snow, not these fifty and it's not merely caused by lack of money either, because that would be a much easier problem to solve, it's not so simple, so the one thing they were probably getting toward the end of one thing, I would like to read your listeners with Israel optimism he's not dead problems in perpetuity because the genetic approach I think, and I cut it out. You know, I'm coming,

out there on this. This is not a mainstream you, but I think the worst in a generic term workload as we can change and for the good that's why we should study the gym, not exempt intelligence. That's why I hope Jews have more to do with it that environment, not not yet because I want to do something that various with jeeps and I spanned. The history of this varies: yes, yes, because I science, there's, there's optimism and a guard again, the negative aspects, the potential negative aspects of this they offer solution was their public conversation about this, and we get people to understand IQ intelligence, cheaper, these are not all the same things differently, I am sure that the data to the US not a data particular ways, and we have to understand these things and once we have some sense of this and not hate

people who believe in that there is a genetic components. Opera, racists allowing people I think we wait Do a common understanding about how Jews environment interact. Figure out how it works and begin to think, how in the year won T fifty point sixty. Could I have to resolve solve some of these issues? To practical benefit, while that is good place leave, and I think you ve had a very productive discussions, so I think that's probably a nice place to. To bring everything to cause. I've been speaking with Doktor Richard higher, who studies the neural basis of human intelligence and competition and who is recently released a new book,

old and signs of intelligence published by Cambridge University press it's an academic book, but for people who are interested in a serious discussion of the road chip between biology and intelligence them. It's a good go to Tom agenda. It's an extraordinarily important topic, given the undeniable primacy of intelligence as the fundamental predictor of as let's say, success in many many domains in in across the human lifespan. So thank you very much for spending an hour. So with us today and with any luck, maybe we'll talk you get in the future. I'd like to talk. You proud, spoke consciousness at some point down I'd be entertaining where I was never really enjoyed it. I appreciate the jobs of having more than three sentences, three sentences and related to investors. I didn't I say one thing about the book. It is written for, delayed Publican

Well, ok! Well, that's good thing to know, Will you let me call it no signs of intelligence coughran when every parent student needs to know about their science, because they wanted to market. It is strictly academic brought, but I it's getting quite a bit of attention just among the non academic, excellent, while all all make sure the tie. I mentioned in the description which I will oppose the link to the boy Finally, on Amazon, I meant that the most straightforward also point out that it is in fact written for people want only specialists in the area, so I was good bags yeah.

Excellent. I wasn't. Thank you very much appreciate no problem. It's a pleasure to argue with you do good to meet. You came up my