Welcome to the Jordan, be Petersen Podcast to support this pod cast. You can make a donation and Jordan Be Petersen, dot com, slash donate or by following the link in the description, Doktor, Peterson's Self Development programmes, self authoring and understand myself can be found itself authoring, dot, com and understand myself, dotcom job well done. I'm planners, I'm Danielle Christendom and I'm Christina half summers and we are through to have the father of all Mansplain honours

studio. Today, I think, is actually more of a man whisperer. Yes, a man whisper, the man genius behind the intellectual dark web. Whatever welcome to the fence liners Jordan Petersen, thank you very much so delighted to have you and it's an honor to have new honour, its and a new tool this nurse were recording this in front of alive audience at the American Enterprise Institute in Washington DC. Where Christina is a resident, scholar and they'll be video of the podcast as well, and we will let you know where to find that when it's ready and were also grateful to eight year every week for the use of its recording studio or the podcast and now fear an introduction going

it's no introduction to vehicle here, but Jordan Petersen is a professor at the University of Toronto and author of many books and an poster of many fantastic lecturers. His most recent book has, I can't keep cap attract of how many languages it's been translated into in the sales, just a phenomenally successful book tour interact. My first question is really about your tour. You look pretty good, there's nobody whose visited one hundred cities in the past since January. Twenty. Third- I don't know how you do it and mostly flying what do you do for fun? When did you ever get to relax in brief moments? And what do you do? Go on twitter? get hung on your cell phone calls by those relaxing. Try to you know forestall that temptation as much as possible. While I have the

I am a bit of time that I can spend with my way she just travel with me, and so you know we ve had we. We try to take some time to walk round the cities that we're in and see what we can. It's, where usually not at any given place for more than a day or two and they're usually pretty backed up with well, whatever is associated with the lecture and then with press that the publishers usually arranged marriages area in Sweden, Stockholm and you were a half an hour to visit the city. With your way here and even love debate that you know yeah. Well, you they're Ajax breaks where you get them well. The thing is that the lecture tour is unbelievably positive. Yes, and a lot of this is is ridiculously positive. You know like so, if I'm going out on the streets now or in cafes or airports, I meet people all the time and there are always polite and they're always happy to see me and they always have some.

Very touching story to relate and and then the audiences themselves are very positively predisposed to whatever it is that we're doing together, and so that makes it a lot easier to stay, motivated and an end to continue right. I mean it's demanding because if things schedule so tightly and and I do a different lecture every night- every everytime- I that amazing? Because I give a lot of lectures- and I am going over every word and then I have another one in it, and you go up without notes. Well, I have a large collection and things that I know what how to talk about, and usually what I try to do is to formulate a problem.

Before the vote. I am so I'm addressing a specific problem right and then I can track how I would set up the argument and then I walk through it, but part of its also an attempt to formulate the argument on the fly too to make the question: what would you say it? formulated more precisely and to make a more precise and engaging answer, and then I can use the audience to judge whether not that's that's happening, and so it's also a real challenge. To do that. So I enjoyed that and its excellent intellectual work out and I've been recording the lectures and I've been using fair, some of them to rate the first draft of the chapters for my next book and for books after that, and so on. I mean

to maximize the. What would you say the utility of doing this at each event and in my wife seems to be particularly well suited to travelling like TAT, she actually enjoys it quite a bit and and is very stable person. So that's also helpful so- and you know it's nice to have an extra brain along because things are scheduled so tightly that we don't ever have any room for error. Yes I don't know how into a tree rigorous. We plan to be with you today, because we know that when you every year on one of these platforms, you're talking about your ideas but on the fence planners, we want to hear more a little bit more about Jordan Petersen. The man desperately indefinitely want to hear about your wife, can't me, and also your so well known for your views on men or how your ideas have been taken up so enthusiastic near by young men, but we want to

talk to about women. Yet that's good so by one of the things you and I share is that we both grew up in Canada. I promise Christine. I would not do my canadian acts and you were here, but you grew up in rural Alberto. I grew up in Toronto and you are what the countries most famous guru now since Marshall Mcluhan, but is the fact that you came from care have any effect on your views? You think, as it forms you in any way, she's always looking. The community and anger candidates, so they will therefore using that. Well, I think that particular part of canada- I grew up in probably was formative to some degree I mean the town I grew up in was only fifty years old. You know, and the particular part of the world that I grew up in was really the last settle part. The north american prairie. This was outside of Edmonton preamble there, one hundred miles north of Edmonton four hundred my

where did short, killed in situ number. The prairie stretches up that far north its stretches up farther north and ill does anywhere else in the north american continent, and so we were at the Tipp of viable farming essentially, and so it was. It was a new place and it was a rather raw place and it was. It was a rather harsh place in many ways, but especially because of the winter, and it was fundamentally a working class place. A prosperous working class place right because most of the industry there was related to the oil and gas industry on. Although it was cyclical when things were good working class people could make a very good living. This is during serenity,

now. I don T be a kid in four hundred miles outside a small town. I liked it when I was a kid I wouldn't say it was as fun when I was a teenager I, but I am not convinced that we know the majority of people who are teenagers necessarily have the most wonderful time of it. I think adults often look backwards at the pass through rose, colored glasses. I aunt. That's what the cartoonist, Trudeau, cues Reagan of doing continually Gary to India Merit at Vienna, whereas Institute no, no, I never saw used for it in your book. Was teenage wasteland, let you better, but its canadian this. How does that formed? You affected you? If it all? Maybe you didn't It's hard to say: I mean I've. I've lived in lots of different parts of Canada now in Canada is quite different. I lived in

while Alberta for a while and then had this particular flavour of existence? I mean mostly in Fairview, I was striving to leave and to move ahead, let's say or to move, I hesitate, say up, but somewhere different somewhere, more urban, but that's the case with many people I mean the small towns all across the west in the? U S and Canada are dying there they're down to nothing, is everyone's move to the cities. I lived in Montreal for a good while, and that was interesting because it was a very, very different culture. It was a culture that was to some degree stratified by language and by class. None of that was true and Alberta, because it was so knew that there is no class structure but- and I was quite interests right you worked, but I loved, I pulled a passage because I think, as you say, people are born in small places everywhere in some want to leave and some don't you said I wanted to be elsewhere. I wasn't the only want everyone who eventually left the fair. HU, I grew up, knew they were leaving by the age of twelve. I knew

my wife, who grew up with me on the same string, knew what was that thing? What would you call that? What's the thing that makes you wanna leave and and set you off because, as you point out, there was no class system, station with cheap in Canada computer. If wasn't, it wasn't cost that we stop him. You were from what middle class My mother was a teacher in my wouldn't my mother was a librarian, though she had trained as an earth, so you know we had a comfortable by would say so: a suburban lifestyle, essentially one moderate middle class, suburban lifestyle. That's what Fairview looked like it looked like a so suburb that was built mostly in the ninth say between the night. Fifty seven nineteen seventies, young Jordan and that then young tammy- and you have to tell us that story, how human but wanted one more. Where are you know? I think that's one thing that is different to some degree about.

Alas, my father and my mother had both left accounts they were from and they were forward future looking people and most of my friends who quit school and who didn't attend university, they didn't have they didn't that sense. I would say that more developed sense of

world outside of what they knew. The other thing is that my my father took us on long trips. When I was a kid he was a teacher, and so he had summer holidays and we drove all over western Canada and down into the U S, long driving trips, thousands of miles- and you know that also gave us the sense that the world was a bigger place, but I knew way before I was twelve. I believe that I was off at least to university and I think, generally in your family, if you're liable to go to university people, don't even really talk about it. It's just given that that's what's going to happen, it's it's something the that you take in with every breath. Almost it's an and its often an unspoken expectation and men. Maybe people may casual reference like what we need

go to college, but it's not like there's a question about it, whereas if you're from a working class background, especially if your family hasn't pursued post secondary education, that is in the realm of unspoken or spoken expectation- and it wasn't like like lots of my friends, including many of them who dropped out before they had high school. They weren't by. They were by no means the dimness people in the class like they were plenty smart, but they weren't oriented towards the idea of of pursuing a career that that involved intellectual. What intellectual engagement wasn't in there world view. And you know when you hear people on them. Let's say more socialist ended the distribution talk about barriers to education. They are often talk about cost and sometimes cost is a barrier

And in this reform in an earlier date, it's more of a bear. Although there is still plenty of community college right state colleges where you can get educated for a perfectly reasonable amount of money, but for my friends was, never The money was never reason they didn't pursue post secondary education. It was more like a truncated view of time. I would say you know, more of an emphasis on the here and now on their and our jobs aplenty. While there is also the year around and well paid job racket wasn't obvious that you were in better shape economically to go to university lower work, especially if you were doing something like working on the oil re right right back time. You know that was rough, cold, harsh work and it wasn't wasn't

once you had an inn, you could stay employed, but it wasn't that easy to land and entry level, job argue and so yeah. Well, it was wise for lots of working class people too to work in those jobs because they were unbelievably lucrative so and they should have been because they were very difficult and dangerous and frigid, cold and and and rough. So you know, starving people didn't turn your money. Not just tell us, quickly. Like how are you let your wife, you were you better when you were seven or eight or rivalry and create three now and you did you fall in love with her ingrained through a great three year Was it mutual. Let me get you wouldn't method? Was there were lots of the boys agreed three were in love with her. She had little crew guys that were perfectly willing to follow around and she was perfectly willing to exploit that she's very good added. Yet she was very popular,

It's you met is children. They were friends for a long time. You know I used to play chess together and croquet and choose a vicious croquet player. Should I don't know if you ve ever played croquet, but it's the bits. If your balls touch, then you can stand on years and whack it and then the other person's ball will oh, she could vanish off into the stratosphere and she liked knock it off they also stream, and then she laughed so she always had a good sense of the good vicious sense of humour to other things actually admire both my wife when, when we ve had our verbal disputes, which you know have certainly happen, she can string together a sequence of insults that sole hair raising you have. You have to laugh.

Did you have brothers, she did she hasn't brother, much older. It ignores all cause, I'm gonna peaceful person and controls. The brothers seemed can get along with guys is clear that the link with a show, love and affection by insults and jobs and jeers India, and if you and I had brother- and I started learned- ok, but if you dont have others girls to rule the two year, so she was here while she she she has Naturally, they can certainly they naturally twist low in your father is quite sharp, waited in and when he was a real town, character he's still alive and he was a real character in the town, a real hyper extrovert. Everybody knew him and he had a pretty good with one, and then she had some of that. What still does have some of that, so she was a side from her serving

were in her ability to whack balls, and I just don't want to go further on that description- that many many things that tells us about. U else brought what else attract. I mean you ve known her pretty much your whole life, so some of the other qualities that not just attracted

but enable you to sustain. I mean I think every young person in this room will want to know, and maybe there isn't one but what's the secret. What's it like to be with someone that long how'd, you sustain battle, I think give your fortunate some of its some of its good fortune. You know- and I would say this is true: I've watched people in the relationships personally for a long time, but also as a professional, because I've done a lot of clinical counselling and I mean there's some things that need to be given about the relationship. I would say it doesn't hurt to find the other person very attractive. You know and that's a mysterious thing we're we're not exactly sure what it is that produces. Let's say chemistry between people, although chemistry is definitely part of what produces it. There's settle things that attract people to one another that are way below the level of consciousness. So, for example, women, don't, like

The order of men who have our each blood sectors who, if they had children with, would be likely to produce stillborn infant. Well, that's definitely a category matched our well. It's so strange, though, because that even now, well that's a good question, and you know you know by older, apparently and so

There is all wearing Cologne about, then it would depend on what type of cologne our age. What whether growing smell is very strange sense and it's very deeply tied to very profound emotions, including memory, and so you find people attractive for reasons that you can't always determined, and so so that that was part of it. I mean I've always found her very attractive than that continues, and I liked her combativeness. You know, like I think that, there's you want someone, I think in a relationship that you can spar with and its partly because you have hard problems do so.

And if the person that you're with isn't willing to put forward their opinion than you only have half the cognitive power that you would otherwise have. No one hopefully find someone who's interestedly different from you, like not so different that you can communicate, and you have to be careful of that, but, interestingly different and then hopefully they have the ability and the will to express their opinion in and then, while then, it's

in olden. Then your interests stays heightened and there has to be that tension in a relationship. You know people think well. I want to get along perfectly with my partner. Like now. You, probably don't you just get bored, then you go looking for trouble, and so you want a little bit of trouble in the relationship and a little bit of mystery in a little bit of combativeness and and the ability to exchange opinions forthrightly and- and I trust her, which is a huge Alex. I mean when we finally did decide to get together permanently we're both in our later twenties. And you know, one of the things that I had learned by that point and insisted to her about was that we had to tell each other the truth and she took

to the pool heartedly you know and for better or for worse, because truths can be harsh design include like this is how thin meaning that all the truth, the letters that is, I don't answer, questions that are likely to get me in trouble so my a central answer honestly and its infuriating? But then I realized, if you want the truth, to tat well, well, that's the thing you know it's useful to know. The truth is empowering Petrov killers are charismatic and actually both my son's like brutally honest when disconcerting yeah, but it's and I can see that it is made them very formidable and because of its people, trust them in the friendships and just gives them, and you ve written a lot about as well

you know if, if I tell my words that she looks good and unselfish, she knows that I mean it and so there's some utility and now and then, if you're silent and say I don't answer questions that you should go to China. Well, sometimes sometimes you know shall say you know. Do you like this all tell her that I dont and you know no, it doesn't necessarily make her happy in the moment, but but If I do say I like it, she knows that I mean it and you know I actually, like her style a lot. So it turns out that ninety percent of the time- it's pretty easy for me to say, look. I think you look great mean it and no she's, very harsh standard bearer too, like she's she's insisted I stay in whatever reasonable physical shape. I happened to be in that was. That was something that she's very demanding of, and I would say that it's the same from my side and we ve been good. Negotiating which, as you know, what do you want from a partner? Fundamentally, what what do you want need mean

First thing is that will hopefully you, like, I said, you're blessed with the fact that you find each other attractive and I think it's very difficult for the relationship to begin or proceed or sustain itself without that but having that, then what do you want? While you want someone that you can trust, you want someone that you can build a view of the future with an you want someone that you can negotiate with that's very hard to negotiate with people, because they have to tell you what they think they have to know what they want or figure it out. They have to tell you what they want. They have to be satisfied when they get what want, which is also very difficult thing to manage, and you have to continually update that because your life goes through different stages and while you are traction wanes, as we all know, in our age of live, not fatally necessarily for yourselves, but but no, you will go. I mean you will not be twenty five forever, so so that that has to

we negotiate won't. You have to work at that to no one and that something that people also don't understand, because they tend to think that, well that that off romantic interaction should be spontaneous like well. If that's your theory than you might as well just give up right now, if you're going to get married, because that, like the only reason you can think that is because you don't have enough responsibility to make romantic entanglement virtually impossible and what happens when you're married, especially when you have little is that an end you both have a job. Let's say is you're so busy that the probability that you're going to find time for spontaneous mutual interaction is decreased. Two zero, and so, if that's, what you're hoping for then you're never going to have it, and so what you have to do is you have to make time for each other? And you know if you're dating when you're establishing a relationship. While you put some effort into it, you know you, you decide that you're going to go out for dinner,

new dress up to some degree- and you know you try to present yourself to each other in some pathways mutually acceptable manner. And you hope that there is going to be a positive consequence of that. You're gonna find each other attractive. But then people somehow think that once there in the same amount of effort, isn't necessary and that's wrong. I would say more effort is necessary on the same front in, and you have to think it through its like you know, if you don't want to be better about the intimate element of your relationship, how much time do you have to spend together each week? In my my rule of thumb, sort of derived from clinical observations is that you need to spend ninety minutes a week with your partner talking, and that means you're telling me other about your life and staying in touch. You know so that you each know what the other is up to and year discussing what needs to be done to keep the household running smoothly.

You're laying out some mutually acceptable vision of how the next week or the next months are going to go together right so that, that keeps you're narratives locked together, like up like the strands in a rope. You need that for ninety minutes or you drift apart, and you need to spin intimate time together at least once a week and probably more like twice and that has to be negotiated and if you don't go, she ate it, and if you don't make it a priority, then it won't happen in all likelihood and then well. Well, then you don't have it that's a catastrophe, because there's not that many things in life that are you know,

intrinsically what would you say, engaging in meaningful and pleasurable and also bonding all of that, and if you let that, go then well part of you guys in part of the relationship dies and while then there is always the possibility of becoming attracted by alternative entanglements which which you would do. If you have any spirit left right, I mean that's. The thing is if well, if you're, not if Europe's, if your relationship at home is entirely unsatisfying sexually, what do you want to do with it Nothing is post just bear it. I mean in one way. The answer is yes, because it's your marriage but another way as well. What that's all the fight you ve got. You new you're gonna, just let the erotic element of your life die and accept everything that goes along with that, because you not willing to cause a bit of trouble to ensure that

maintained, an inner one, we're not very good at thinking these things through consciously mean people are bad negotiating period. As far as I can tell the particularly bout it and go shooting things that are deeply private. How much do you want your partner to know about you anyways? It takes a lot of trust to have a real conversation about what you need and want. Now you have in the press. People read that you are. You have a following of young men, and I went to hear your lecture at Washington DC and there were a lot of women there. And your book. I foresaw Mendel, buy books then often compared to women. So presuming you have a lot of female readers and I found a jet Daniele and I found it completely readable and

No, it wasn't a river for men now. I know what it was more like a delusional desire on the part of the radical leftists that the only people that can possibly be attracted to me are angry man they be better if they are angry young white man embrace them, that's it's the nerd. Yet there is its diversity the diverse following, including many women and are also not particularly angry. I mean to defusing the anger. That's the point of your book is stopped being a grass stopping resentful rifle resentment. Does that that's grub smoothly, crippling ragged resentment, just resentment deceit, arrogant, starts part of our nordic another book and one of the rules is don't allow yourself to become, but for resentful senseless hateful, deceitful and arrogant, there's together. Yet it could be eradicated,

What's that supposed to be a good soldier, and I mean there's been two hundred and fifty thousand people, as I said, come to the lectures and there hasn't been a single negative incident. Not what is this when I find fascinating? Is that I I found you early on me. I had no idea. You were just like bridge capacity in the Sundance kids like who is that guy? Who is that? I beg you were pretty good and we were covering the lot of the same topics later on him now and then we know I found out. Will you were, but is astonishing to me? Is that there's this amazing? It just split between the positivity of your audience, a diversity of your audience. The is the intellectual content of your message and then you get with a snark. You jerk

with an agenda and I'm not mentioning names, but this maybe there's no baby Louis, this young woman from G Cuba and initiatives, so tat enable steadied isolating got year after recital four, we want to blame the BBC was channel Saint and then I and she seemed like, as often she seemed intelligent and capable of insight up to a point. But it's almost as if something seized her mind and show you something. You bet, I think people Ingenio palaeontology it can your policy is that a whole generation, some of our most talented young women, are incapable of art Because of this I will flourish. We thought maybe we urgently need just an openness to she couldn't in. You were saying completely like interesting, fascinating original things. Even to me, you ve studied these topics

Well and no, it was quite the day, so I went to Baltimore using it. Yeah meanwhile able it made me think a lot that day, because I went there and I have to go out of my way to do it, not that I'm complaining there's a reason for saying that you know so. I go there in Baltimore, yet what I was talking in Baltimore, okay, so so Fourthly, require an I showed up to the to the hotel room where this was all occurring, and you know what you expect generally

beating even from journalists who aren't you know who are more of the attack on variety or who maybe aren't positively predisposed to India. Logically, are personally, you expect a certain modicum of professional politeness right. You know, because, while you dont have to be there and you came and you invite you accepted an invitation and in all of that, and so even with the channel for journalists Cathy Newman come. She was quite polite and and forthcoming in the in the green room before the interview you know it, so she would at least that professional persona, which is its not nothing right that this something to be said for for going through the motions professionally in an appropriate manner. But when I walked into the hotel room in Baltimore, it was obvious that this interviewer had already made up her mind about me, a hundred percent, and that she was absolutely you know negatively.

Predisposed to me with a personal animals, and animals is exactly the right word and there is about a half an hour photography session because it was Ciccu, and so I was in that atmosphere that photographers we're fine. I was in that atmosphere for about forty five minutes before we started to talk and part of the reason that I am so I'm not as calm during that interviews. I usually I'm a little bit harsher and the reason for that is that you know it just started off instantly combat it and in what I, what I should have done see it's very, very difficult to be awake enough to do these things properly. And the interview progressed fine, although by the end of it I thought that I had may be done enough interviews for awhile, because I didn't think I had regulated my temper as well. During that interview as I might, if I were, you have harshly

well for the first time in its you we're getting out and then she brought up a question about anger- and I just saw you kind of a just and then after that, it was smooth, say: well, that's good, because it was touch and go. You know, and I thought boy you know. Maybe you run out of patience. Maybe you know maybe it's time to dial back on the interviews, because you know I've had many interviews like that in their very I find them like, and it takes me three days to recover. I know intervened, then you got. You start, think here's what I should have said it should have that and I drive myself met no, but you did very well, but it so interesting that what they told me was how parochial she, and she lives in her own little world asking that is more a little bit about the ideology of our time. In gush you encounter this everywhere and I used to write about this wisely I, but I would encounter it. I mean I think part of the issue is that you will acknowledge that there are

This is between the sexes. That seems to be another two, however, that our hair, I say, that's a hypocrisy, because when I was reading your book there is nothing about it. That is anti female, impacting you you do a lot of examining of the Adam and Eve story, and you have this wonderful passage about, like Adam being there Julie, aggrieved man who, through their women under the original fault, you do you major hiding, so it s really funny so send us. So there's nothing in this and in the the rules such as they are, you know they seem very common sense. The call they could apply to anyone so is at a fair. Surmise of why you get so attacked the just the very fact that you're willing to speak about the sexes as being not unequal but different. Fifty

yeah. Well, you know where I would say that that's part of it, because there is a threat there. So one of the things that happened when I was in Scandinavia, I just want to calm about this. Actually, It was interesting being in Scandinavia, especially in Sweden, because they pushed the equality of opportunity doctrine farther than any other country they were entered, it all started down in the like in the U N in the original video, the charter, the Swedes, where there they ve, never no, no and soul, and the weak that I was. There was the same week that two articles were published on gender differences in in temperament and in interest the biggest sex differences that we know of that aren't morphological are in.

Interest, so women are more interested in people by and large and men are more interested in things by and large and the difference is actually large. It's one standard deviation in so that means, if you're a man, you would have to be more interested in people than eighty five percent of men to be as interested as fifty percent of women and if you're a woman you'd have to be more interested in things than eighty five percent of women to be as interested as the fifty percent mail, so the difference is actually quite substantial and it certainly large enough to drive occupational choice, differences and it with which is browser. Explains a lot configuration of people in the workplace, Slightly well, you know, were approach approaching parity in terms of workplace overall, workplace distribution of women, but there's massive differences and occupational choice like to very interesting, for example, to go to the website of the: U S: labor

department and look at male and female dominated industries? And you know there's that data ten male dominated industries has ITALY's zero women in the people reckoning. There's been a wonderful people, their people hearing zones according to Camille Polly you find, is a lot of men in the people from yeah you and that women are, you knew ask a group of women and men. Would you rather spend the next three weeks taking part a machine and putting it together or helping a group of people work out their problems in the pool of people who want? do them. She just far more men than women, there's more men and women dominated industry, then there are women and men dominated industries at the extreme. So that's like. I was kind of Latvia's like nurse nursing

way. More male nurses mainly Marguerite layers. I've studied these male nurses and they already neither gender activists are upset because they earn more than women and professor of nurses, Firstly, Pennsylvania tried to find out why event up they immediately find out. What's the best paying field sub feel so they go into like nurse anesthesiology, it pays a lot more than men. Are there and disproportionate number and their willing to work incredibly low insane hours than farmer willing to move a higher invade Feral found with with gender differences, is that men are more willing to move There are more willing, longer hours there more willing to to work outside their more willing to take on dangerous tasks more likely to work and scalable industries, and so we'd, like you, can't scale personal care. It's really. There is very, very difficult there, much less likely to work part time if they have small businesses there much more likely to work full time in the small business rather than

part time, and I mean women have the reasons to want to work part time and feral also pointed out that if you work ten percent longer hours you make for percent more money and non linear nonlinear return on overtime, something that's really useful to know. You know what it's an interview where, if Russia to an employer, have somebody also marks you out, you know like you have ten employees and their old doing a reasonable job. Let's say, but one of them is working, an extra an hour a day or forty five minutes a day, and you can observe that every day, then that gives them an edge with regards to potential promotion and so on, Return on those areas is non linear and so anyway. So I went to Scandinavia and it was the same week that two studies were released, showing what had already been established beyond a shadow of a doubt that the personality differences between men and women and the differences in interest as well actually get bigger as your society get richer and as it gets more egalitarian, and not just to look

been either. That's the other thing that so interesting as you might think. While the effect is it's the opposite of what the social construction costs would predict. First of all, so that's the first thing to point out: is it's not only that their hypothesis wasn't supported? It was decidedly refuted and none of them have come to terms with that and and and it's not small effect, the the difference between personality between men and women in Scandinavia is a lot larger than it is in non egalitarian. Contract can Earl Botswana, that's it in the United States, the richer, the democratic, your household demographic, your household, the more likely the woman is to take tough time out and be at home with the current we can. Therefore, if you can afford to do ass, you can afford to major and walk out. You know low paying fields like I don't know: feminist dance therapy, the others, the others you use.

You see, the rule is that one of the things that also interesting, I think, is that you know there's this idea that meet the marriage is a patriarchal institution. You know that's primarily put there for the for the utility of the of the mail and think well like I think, that's complete bloody rubbish and that I don't think there's any evidence to support of it all. But I think the best counter evidence is that, while, if that's the case, then rich people shouldn't be getting married. Because they don't have to impress themselves, but the truth of the matter is: is that the higher your demographic position, the more likely you are to be married? So a marriage is falling apart? The more likely the wife is staying home and not I mean she will has all sorts of pursuits, but one is not well there's an old saying in when any woman who marries for money earns it lets paused there for a quick break

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I might get one for my little dog easy to. She could use a nice we're talking to Jordan Petersen, the author of twelve rules for life and end note for chaos and who the New York Times is called the most influential public intellectual in the world. Right now that now that is something this is where you might get in a little trouble. As in your book, you call men order and women chaos and you say order. The known appears symbolic associated with masculinity and chaos. The eternal feminine is also the crushing force of sexual what's wrong with that. We chaotic by the it isnt men and women better order and chaos its mask the inseminated symbolically and so what's happened fundamentally, is that were

brains are wired for social cognition, so we're not natural scientists were natural sociologists. That might be a better. Even though I shudder to think that that be true, especially given the Navy Souci as well. That's a finger, rigorous or Meda hearing or or medium or maybe we're more, where more, naturally, people who observed through the lens of thick. And that what we see is world has characterized and though the world obviously is made out of men and women and children, and those seem to be our fundamental cognitive categories. Masculinity, femininity and and and and then the category of children and those categories have expanded to take on connotations outside of. Of pure person perception, and so you know is for this reason that if you go to a movie- and maybe it's

is the animated movies I like to talk about those because they drawn a very deep symbolic? Well, it's perfectly reasonable to see a which that lives in the swamp, because those go together like it makes sense the witch live and gleaming chrome, high rise initiatives in Islam is that some, maybe you had a quarter and room, I think he could Why I well that's it. That's where we do have a harmonised would be better for could take them off if you can take off better, but there are categories of of symbolic Association that our natural to the way we think and the fundamental elements of the category seem to be gendered, and so this is partly. Why make reference to Taoism, for example, for the Taoists the world is made out of chaos and order and chaos is the domain that you don't understand and that emerges unpredictably, but also the domain from which new forms emerge, because it's from novelty that that the new emerges.

I think that fundamental association between seven entity is chaos is the assault Asian between what's unexpected and novel and what's new, because new forms emerge from chaos, and it's not that chaos is is bad in order is good that that's new, both have their parliament follow, jeez both have an average yet and and and what you're looking for in this is this is. But the book concentrates on above all is that you're looking constantly to find the balance between those two. So, for example, formally speaking, the domain of order is that place that you are when what you're doing is producing the results that you want to have produced some magic magic. You think about the preconditions for not being anxious. Okay, so the preconditions are that you're constantly making predictions about. What's going to happen next,

and those predictions are tied tightly to your behavioral output. So you act in a certain way and you presume that a certain thing is going to happen and if your actions produce the results that you desire Then you assume that you know where you are, and you know what you're doing and that your plan is intact and that the environment is secure and that keeps her anxiety under control. That order- and then maybe you're at a party- and you don't know anybody and you tell a joke- and everybody looks at you like. What you said was not only not funny but also downright offensive, and then all of a sudden, you, from the domain of order into the domain of chaos, because you thought you were somewhere and you thought you were someone, and you thought you were with people that were of a certain type, and you got all that wrong. And so, if we also suggesting it is going to be the woman who says, I find that really are the norm submitted to it. If I got out about it, probably is never mind, but women

so more sensitive to negative emotion. So there is some slightly higher probability that that might be the case, But then I think women are also associated, at least in man's imaginations with nature, which is part of the chaotic domain say as opposed to culture, because their sexually selective. So you gotta think what what is nature. We have that as a continent of category right, we think of the natural world we think of nature versus culture is a fundamental opposition what is nature while nature is trees and landscapes and animals, and all of that, but that isn't what nature fundamentally is nature, fundamentally, is that which selects from a genetic perspective. That's nature, that's the fundamental definition of nature, and it is the case that human females are sexually selective and it's it's a major component of human behaviour, so the

The evolutionary SIRI, roughly speaking, is that the reason we diverged from chimpanzee eight million years ago, seven million years ago is, at least in part because of the differences between sexual selectivity between female humans and freedom, chimpanzees. Female chimpanzees are more likely to have offspring from dominant males, but it's not because of their sexual selectivity. So a female champions has periods of fertility that are marked by physical, but by observable physiological changes. Not the case with human females. Human female population is, is concealed, so that's a very profound biological difference between human beings, I wasn't chimpanzees and the chimpanzee females will meet with any mail, but the dominant males chase the subordinate males away but human females are sexually selective and so in, and it's not a trivial fact, so you have, twice as many things,

ancestors as male ancestors. You think. Well, how can that be? Well? Imagine that on average, every single human female has had one child throughout the entire course of history, which is approximately correct by the way, then, a man that half of the men had zero and the other have had to locate and that's roughly the case so half of males, historically speaking, have been reproductive design, troops and the reason for that is because a female sexual selectivity. So it is actually the case that female humans are nature. It's not only that there that that their associated with nature symbolically. As far as reproduction is concerned, they are the four

of nature. That does the selection and so their nature in the most fundamental way, and there is a chaotic element of that, at least in relationship to men and also in relationship to women, because a lot of the female on female competition is competition. That's chaotic for the right to be sexually selective right, not only with regards to men, which drives a lot of politicking, but also in relations to each other, because part of what human females do is jockey for position in the female dominance hierarchy for the top position, which is the woman who gets to be most sexually selective, and so that drives female female competition. And its front dynamic. This there's similarities between female t, male competition and male male competition, but there are also differences and their pronounced. So men, for example, while men are more likely to compute. Paid for socio economic status and that's partly because that drives female made choice. So the correlation for men between Socio,

I'm a status and sexual success is about point six and for women it's zero. Zero, in fact, is actually slightly make it of you. So that's a huge difference between men and women, but I know that you know the anthropogenic. Sarah Hurdy H argue why an inch he's my favorite feminist terrorist, although, as she would say, I'm a theorist who happens to be a feminist, but she studied primate behave here and she watched she lifted. The women very care, if the females and with very carefully and looked at it, chimpanzees and gazelles, and found that the female initially like male parameters, would look and say: oh the females, the males are dominant in the females are so quiet

She looked more carefully and saw the females weren't exactly cooperative, like they would pass around their infant, their baby whenever they were and would sign in, and so the male privatisation say. Oh there, there so kind and caring she found out when it was not you're. It was not hers, they would take a little tufts of hair wouldn't come out or they do something to the eyes.

And the baby would like the injured and she saw his silence but absolutely true with their status differentiation. Yes, so that much more likely that'll happen higher status, females, taking care of lower stem sinful. Exactly in she said, the great tragedy will not tragic. Should the reality of our species, in fact that the subject of her book is the woman who never involved, we didn't evolve for niceness uncooperative, there's an immense competition and we can, according to her, we are its indelibly marked and our nature to compete for the dominant males and no doubt about theirs in soap, and that seems to cross cultural as well, that doesn't flag know a little bit in the more egalitarian societies yellow. Instead, exaggerated it does flattened to some degree. So you can imagine that there is a biological component and the cultural component of our can, both in and in that case, if you modify the cultural component,

then that seems to decrease the overall so like let it might be more clear about this. Women are less prone to made up, crossing up status hierarchies in Scandinavia than they are in less egalitarian countries, but there still prone to do it so worldwide, for example, women, young women find men who are both for years older than them maximally attractive and they tend to made across. Upstairs hierarchies, and so one of the consequences of that, for example, is that as women have entered the workforce, they that's actually driven inequality. Because rich women will only Mary rich men. Men is rich, them or Richard, whereas rich men will marry women who are poorer than that, but women won't, and so what means- is it's another factor: that's pulling wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer people,

This is a sort of mating now, and you just find someone with your background it, whereas a doctor might have once married secretary, you now MC marries another doctor you can. I ask then step in a little bit back from primates as well. How does this selection work in the era of swiping right? How? What is your reaction to the young people date today. That's a good guy was really hope and we'd get into that really are very into the monkey. So I didn't want to interrupt, knew well. Why should close off the scandinavian discussion just by pointing out- and this is something that the scandinavian somebody going to have to wrestle With- is that if you institute effective policies to promote equality of opportunity which the Scandinavians have done, you're going to produce something?

quality so like a fifty fifty distribution of men and women in the workplace, but we are also going to exacerbate certain kinds of inequality, and you can't get out of that. So you cannot have equality of opportunity and equality vote come together. They dont work together. Inequality of outcome, essentially, quality of outcome doctrine, which is often described with the code word equity, is that at every day of every occupation, the people have to be represented by the same number that their representative at the population. So if it's not fifty, fifty men and women at each in each occupationally and in each strata at each occupation than that sort of primer, fussy, evidence for discrimination and for systemic discrimination. It's like no sorry, you have to factor in choice and choice, actually turns out to be a very important determinant and as this society gets flattering, slatter choice becomes a more important and more and more important determinant, and so you, so

What that essentially means is that the most radical end of the left wing political agenda is logically impossible. And it's impossible for a variety of other reasons, and they should look at the data. It is just too cliche now have in any group of activists and those who, oh, what we need in order for women to achieve equality, we need government funded day care and we need an honor. They have it. In Sweden, Sweden has fewer women in managerial levels. American women are a head, in fact. Now they have joined. They have quotas over there, so they need, if you may see use and on the males, onboard hasn't made any difference there, bringing in my Merrick and women, because we're so much further ahead is no difference in distribution of men and women lower it's it's called the Nordic Paradise and you guys are so one

He had only eight that, yes, we all want to get back to Hell. I went back is not here I haven't. I was thinking this morning about. I was talking to a variety of political types and we were talking about morning. Yeah inducing it hard to believe believe, nor not I'm not telling you bunch of Republicans here and I've been talking to Democrats as well, but it was most and Republicans here and we were talking about abortion, and I made a case that that's really not a very productive discussion, because you're talking about a problem way too late in the sequence, problems. So by the time the discussion starts to be about abortion, their safety problems that have already emerged that no one has addressed, and some of those problems are. The fundamental problem is how human being should regulate their sexual behaviour and that's a big problem and you think well,

there's an interesting thing, that's happening because in all the people on the right would say Well, that's easy, a slight! Don't sleep around and get married and have sex with your marital partner and that solves the problem, so their strictures on sexual behaviour and those who need it She wants, and what you see on the left is that there is this weird paradoxical demand: let's say that people should be allowed to express their sexuality in any manner that they choose whenever they want, but that's is so dangerous that it has to be carefully regulate at every single stage of the interaction, and so you know that many state legislatures have now followed the example of university campuses and put it in a firm and of consent legislation so that Every move you make towards physical intimacy has to be preceded by

the institution of a verbal contract. Essentially, it's like what can I take your hand? Yes, you. Actually it. What I understand you actually have to say yes, like nodding, is not sufficient and so, and so each stage has to be asked to be preceded by affirmative consent and in which, which, while I won't, I won't send It- about will its exert its deserve to assume that that's how human intimate relationships are supposed to proceed, and then you have complicated laws emerging that are part of that that for example. This is the case in California. As I understand it is that you cannot give affirmative consent if you're intoxicated. Ok, so we think about that's like what? What does that mean? It means it like. A lot of sex is enabled

illegal for a long time, including marital marital. You think, to me on. My honeymoon about everything at its demonstrated it to me. It seems to me a little seems to me to mean the California legislation that if you have sex with your wife or husband and either of you is intoxicated, then you're either one of you or both is guilty of rape. That's what it looks like to me. Actually, I was in a debate a few years ago, the university Vagina law school and I turned to my debate partners have to if what you are saying is right to people can rate one. Right. She said yes, an Iphone shit. I mean. How can I be well that that's the question? What will do so? Then? I would

Well, it's interesting because I think that a lot of this confusion has emerged fundamentally as a consequence of the birth control pill. So you know cause you gotta. Think situations before you think ideologically or psychological it's like it seems to me that the twentieth century will be remembered for the hydrogen bomb, the transistor and the birth control pill. Unbelievably radical technological innovations and maybe most her neck and we're back out my very landowner fair, later depended on the transistor. You know because underlines that so that that that's the big technological innovation that spawned old out and of the three I would say, the the birth control Pill- is probably the bigger hydrogen born. So and because it it changed the fundamental biological nature of women and men, and because it gave women for the first time in biological history, the the option

choosing their reproductive status, and that's that we like that. It's apps! Well, yes or no like yes, we like it, but it is not something. That's come without a tremendous. What we need now rise early, a fellow can anyone reading I am no! No! I haven't you ll, find it interesting diseases IRAN's roared and I'm not I'm not making the case for the abolition of the birth control appeal by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm on pointing at its complexity, and so because one of the questions is once you can regulate your reproductive function. What attitude should you have toward set and one answer might be the more of it under the more varied circumstances. The better, because why not and I would say that was actually part of the attitude that emerged in the aftermath of the birth control pill in the nineteen sixty six right and it was

it was a reasonable response in some sense, because it such a cataclysmic change that you don't know what it implies. Well, what's the consequence of that? Well, first of all, people are reliable enough to, whose birth control in an entirely reliable manner. So, even though it can work at near a hundred percent efficiency, you have to take extraordinarily regularly and in a disciplined manner for that work, and so there was still the problem of unwanted pregnancy, let's say, and then there was the problem of the proliferation of sexual epidemics, and that culminated in AIDS which could have easily wiped all of us out, but didn't but there's other sexual epidemics. That could have the same effect, but we we ve, been fortunate enough to escape them and and then and then more recently, there's been this weird inversion. Specially on the radical left.

That points to the re emergence of something like a set of sexual taboos. No, like, I think, the idea that sex is casual and that its a form of entertainment is, I think, it's an absolutely preposterous idea. I think that. It's it's psychologically shallow beyond belief to hold that as a core proposition, because it forces you to first of all. If, if, if its repetitive sex with multiple partners, it forces you to treat people if they're interchangeable, and I don't see how that's good, for you psychologically or for the people that you are using interchangeably. It implies that you can divorce sexuality from play,

from the desire for a moment for a relationship from emotional fragility, from love from family from responsibility. All of those things that are part and parcel of everyone- and I dont think you can- and I dont think people's experience indicates you can and especially on the emotional front- and I think, that's partly. What's driving. And there is also a residual sense that there's something about sex, that's fundamentally dangerous, and maybe it's dangerous emotionally and personally, and maybe it's dangerous, socially and psychologically, which most certainly is because it's a powerful force and the way the left is reacting to. That is by insisting that all forms of sexual behaviour are valid and and

and it is reasonable to manifest all of them, but that it simultaneously so dangerous that absolutely every aspect of it has to be state regulated and in an increasingly draconian form. And so I think what needs to happen is that the left and the right have to get together and have a like a real discussion about what constitutes fell in sexual morality and that's the conversation you have to have way before you worry about solving, like the abortion debate, which you know is very divisive and very and very intractable. What one of the things we talked about actually just last week on the podcast. Is this cover story in the Atlantic about the sexual recession among young people that Despite the advent of the birth control, abortion is is going down its than theirs it there's a lax. There's arising is going to look up fewer at what have you can help? It worry about on that. Where would you is the cost of something you decrease its prevalence. No- and I think that its it seems to be

You know you're a vigorous now to look well what a well known fact that kind of thing that it's also a reflection of the same thing that Bloomberg reported on just a few days ago. They said that across businesses manner thinking I'm not spending any time with a single woman that isn't You know associated with me in some formal manner, like my wife, I'm not going to do it, I'm not going to mentor young women, I'm not going to be in a room alone with their because haggard face career, annihilation and instantly. They are frightened of young women. Is Kate Julian's, that's part of it, but we can over exaggerate. The part I mean anxiety and depression is going up amongst Both young men and young women suicide is going up that that theirs is it's not just? U dont, most people I think our not we're talking about an elite demographic who is into the consent and political correctness and work with them that this is across the board and its global. It's it's happening even in Sweden, Hunt really

in Japan and Japan exactly so severe that things are not speaks to, and especially in Japan have people, especially young men, have given up on intimacy and that having sex is. Actually I mean that having much. Nevertheless, sex eurobonds all right right right. What an ILO questions are well, there's pornography no longer, can we get these zero risk need when you allow for pornography that that that men and women will sort of separate that from their actual secular, they were seen a whole. I guess collapse of intimacy, let alone sex and and and and- and I don't think- that's just explained by the political nature. So the interested in your thoughts they are well. I don't know that. I don't know the literature on the decline in sexual activity. Well enough to know if it's Phelan reliable, but I mean I think that you know

in a stable society. You take lots of things for granted. You take you to the fact that men and women are going to be sexually attracted to one another for granted and even though its more fragile than it appears know it in its suppress more easily than you might think, and you take the idea that men and women are going to move together towards the establishment of long term intimate relationships for granted. But that's partly because you don't understand what invisible preconditions exist to make that self evident in oh and when those invisible preconditions are disrupted by rapid technological or sociological change than thing shift. Underneath you, when you dont know why louder than is traced to the advent of the smartphone, especially in the generation, see that that Kate was explained to us that you could see was brought back

internet and the smartphone that led to this increasing fall off of relationships, or maybe the abstract is more interesting than right along small. So you see that happening eradicated. I just wanna. I want to know the truth. Have you ever been? Was but he loved them fascinating, but you really want to get back. Your smartphone has ever happened yet I will happens to me. It is known to have his during our podcast, I urge you to put european Language nine research other very or that are neither party very addictive another very addictive learnin. You know I read the other day that there

lowering like they are kind of going together, so preferred method of interpersonal communication between young people. Now is testing rather than face rice communication by endless swamping that apes, though that's that's. That's that's a very interesting topic too, that the like the tender phenomenon that, because that that's, it is also a major technological revolution, because what it's done, I would say for the first time, is reduce the cost of rejection to males to zero because it hides it you're going to people you ever hear from our people haven't rejected you, although, although they true but there was, but one man who had to make three hundred he key actually tallied you're vehement three hundred requests sway. Ray we're too young rebel ass. He read the scent

sure sure sure, but it's a massively attenuated, because observing you're not being humiliated not at all, not at all. It's really it's really at arm's length, and you know you can sleep very very rapidly, and so you can all that rejection over within a very short period of ride like losing a video game where's or let one last word. It's not that I mean not earliest bad. So, and you know I I I don't what- and there I mean- tinder also reduces the one of the other things that things that you want to think about with regards to sex, and I think this is probably particularly true for what Is that to what degree, as it in women's interests, to allow the cost of sex to fall to zero, because with pornography certainly does that, and it just seems to me that that's not a very good, long term strategy for relationships between men and women, because whatever sex is worth the cost of zero

the wrong price, and so that's you know, I heard their money retention pay quite a bit for well prove true making. But that's true, but you know you don't have to you know I've heard from a number of women what written Red Blog report on their frustration with their attempts to be relative. Least sexually selective, like let's say they decide that they're not going to sleep with their new partner on the first date in own their frustrated by the fact that, to the degree that their being cautious in their sexual behaviour, which I think is actually an admirable idea that their instantly out competed, especially if their partners are somewhat impulsive by women who will say yes at the drop of a hat and so well again, I dont think you know it depends on what the goal is. That's the thing is that there is

short term their short term sexual gratification, but that literature indicates that married couples, for example, or couples in a permanent long term, monogamous relationship or more sexually satisfied that single people, and maybe the single people, have to be passed out into those who are sexually successful and those who want, but I suspect that wouldn't make much difference, but whatever the the utility of relatively immediate sexual gratification, for whatever that's worth in the adventurous nets. That goes along with that lets, say the hunt and they links of having a new partner and all of that, and maybe even the danger, its associated with that, because people like to have a little bit of danger in their life. But what's the goal, it's like what people want, and I mean there there's a great book called a billiard, wicked thoughts.

It was written by Google engineers, and so it contains a great psychology, because Google engineers don't care about political correctness and they just write down what they find. They don't even notice that its politically incorrect- hence James Timor, for example, and what they found was that women use pornography, just as much as man, but the pornography that women uses verbal. It's not images dick and that point pornographic novels. Essentially all the same, extraordinarily standard plot line to the degree that publishing houses like Harlequin. When I visited faith, it's the bodies The reference not yet right saw the Harlequin serious. You have. You know the ones that were published like in the nineteen, seventeen that are pretty their tame they're pretty hot ass well there's a variety they re in Ireland. They range haven't completely team to essentially too hard core pornography, but but the plots are quite similar, in the plot? Is young

relatively innocent woman finds powerful interesting dangerous male tames him and then they live happily ever after. The Siberian the bees plot, we as a fundamental approach is a thing, is search for women on corn Hubley discovery. We did an episode. Important was for women, it was getting rape. Wasn't that think they know. Lesbianism At least that was Europe or that was your lets me. My party is going to the William Sonoma store. I know, is it a female all those other? No indeed, I feel are losses Urville MAR One is now than men and women should never tell one another their fantasies, because women are outraged by what we say and we're totally bored by what they say. And I felt like women have kind of these scenarios and I don't know unicorns, I dont know what they're doing storylines storylines in man we're just like. I don't wanna

I say this to you, but it is a lot of just closeups, a female eighty per year, will men are much more visually oriented, dynamic, sexually embedded having shamed me now that it's called the male gaze and so there's all of the sick. Oh, my God, the sports illustrated is exploiting the female, forgetting yapping men like it. I'm worried that now is the way in the past sexual sub gaze, where shamed we're now reversing it and shaming like heterosexual. Yes, that's true! well, we have remember. We had the young woman who complained about being whistled at nice. It don't worry it stop it with sexual behaviour. The question is what the end game- and this is what people have to ask themselves- is like one of the corollaries to the female pornographic romance- is actually the establishment of a long term relationship and the question is, you know what's so funny, got pilloried in the New York Times for for talking about enforcement.

Gimme squarely I now because they are told that gets brought up like an ever more sooner than its own redemption. Wasn't I talked about woman for two two days ago like a little side comment, and then that became like that and you let us take a case like enforced monogamy mean forced marriage or no I mean it was an anthropologist what she knew perfectly well, because she's, a very smart person and all it means is that a pronounced proclivity in human societies around the world to enforce monogamous relationships at multiple levels. The sociological hired you do it culturally and do it. You do an affectation nearly one illegally in an enforced monogamy. So my son was just married and if he came to me next year- and he said you know, caveat guess what I've managed to have four affairs in the last year with hot women and my wife haven't found out about any of them. I'm not going to pay

Among the back say, good job, you know I'm going to say what the hell's up with you. You know you violated the vow that you took your putting your whole future, riskier betraying yourself in your wife and well that's enforcement Gimme a worthy. The idea is that Social norm is the establishment of a long term monogamist relationship and that there are strictures put in place to support that, but also to punish, deviation from it. And you say well, you know- maybe maybe not so much on the punishment in, but you depends is like what do you want? What? What is it that you want? You want to long term table relationship or not, and if that's the goal, then your behaviour should be devoted to whatever it is that facilitates that goal and don't say that I certainly don't see that casual and impulsive sex fits that bill, not not in the least and all of the evidence with regards to living together shows that that's actually detrimental to the establishment of a long term relationship

First of all, common law, marriage people who are in common law marriage are much more likely to be be divorced. That's the first day. The second thing is people who live together before they get married are much more likely to be divorced after they get married. So the idea that, while you can try someone on four size and see how it works and then you're going to see if your compatible, it's like that's one story Another story is or how about you, and I lived for a little while and if you're, not so bad but me, I can find someone better and if I do you know in the next year and a half or so, because we're not hope together in any form away. I can just trade you in it ok. You can do the same to me. Already see that as the sort of complimentary, mutual interaction. That leads to the formulation of long term trust, and I think it's a better story for interpreting what constant living together than well- you know we're gonna, try each other out, because that's what mature people would do. They saw a rental yeah. Well, that's where I wash the rental year. Israel

Yeah yeah, that's that's it and then what what more? Most importantly, the daddy indicate that it doesn't work, is that you are more likely to get divorced. Not less equally, because maybe the right attitude is well you're, probably about us lot is me- and you know we're lucky that we found each other, and so, let's see if we can make a commitment, because we're in gay in something that's very risky: gonna win, intimate relationship and we're going to commit to each other and see if we can build something of You would cross time and theirs. Definite a risk and now, but there is a compliment to your partners like well, I think you're worth making a sacrifice for and what's the sacrifice, while its everyone else, it's a big soccer vice and theirs, and if you don't see that as a compliment, then I dont think you're thinking, because not only is it a compliment, it sort of like the ultimate com Maybe you don't get to have a marriage that works without that complement, maybe it so difficult establish a long term relationship, that's functional that you have to make a wall of being sacked.

I very early on in the relationship in order for that to even be a possibility- and you know- maybe not because what the hell do. We know about what binds people together, but But it's not that easy to stay with someone for a long period of time. You know it's, it's a real. It's a real commitment takes a tremendous amount of effort and it gives it that actually you're bringing us back to the beginning in the time with Tammy and one of the things about, I think I'm gonna guess this is a bit of an overlooked partner chapter in your book, but I just would like one of my That's it was your become modern, parenting, no use and that we deliver all. I thought I would get most trouble for I know of we remind Ex. Don't read that foreign to the Boolooroo? Well, my mother, when I had my first child, gave me a nineteen, fifty copy of doktor Spartan and he was considered so controversial

he's just a sensible person made new children very very well was a pediatrician and you, your rule, for parenting, is, do not like your children. Do anything that makes you dislike them and you kind of in that one chapter, and it's not even one of your longest chapters, just did this wonderful sweeping overview of modern parenting and the problems. And in some ways it were producing. Maybe some of these kids, who are prolonging the markers of adulthood that that you feel that parents, you said you see, today's parents is terrified by their children, not least because they have denied credit for their role as benevolent unnecessary agents of discipline order in conventional. And then you told them hilarious stories about when your wife, rounded daycare, centers out of your house, and you would you would get into tests of wills with some of the two year olds.

TAT man to turn his ordinary, where he got married. Two thousand, you still doesn't want to do anything. He doesn't want to do very charming and very emotionally stable. So it's like he's easy to get along with, but trying to get him to do something he doesn't want to do my wife defeated when he was nine months old and she's tough, like that seriously, she she's no pushover, but he would just sit there with his mouth closed and glare adders like I'm, not even that can take more than new conditions. That is really something to see and to see that kind of force of will and someone that small talk a little bit about that in just the modern rules between men and women. I mean we're less, you know there, you don't, we you're, not really supposed to distinguish between the fathers and mothers, even though that seems to inevitably happen in most what happens in large part, because the

children differentiate between them, like parents or under the delusion that most of what you do with your children is driven by what you want to do with your children, when in fact, it's driven to a massive degree by what your children want you to do with them. And so there were studies done thirty years ago. On feminist parents, who decided we're going to raise their children in non gender differentiated matters and when they were studied, they found that the parents who had that explicit philosophy we're just as gender differentiated with their children as the parents who didn't have the philosophy and the reason for that. But if you're apparent that has any sense at all, you dont ring respond to your children as a rigid India along here. Bond to them as whatever it is. The child man manifest hymns Imre herself ass, like then he individualised relationship. You take your cue from the person and you might think, well, a child has no intrinsic nature, but you know if you think that you either don't have children or you ve never seen a child or

you're. So, blinded by your radiology that you don't have a child, you just have a blank projection screen onto which you project your presuppositions, and then Heaven help your child. You know, so so a lot of the gender differentiation is actually driven by the children's demands and that's all for the good that chapter I thought I would get into tremendous trouble for writing now chapter because its contentious right on the surface, this the rule, because the rule first implies that children can be just likeable and then I would say again you know it's like. Have you children are exactly remember even where their children, you didn't like, obviously in some parts of children or dislike able, but it's a taboo and admit that because they're all sweetness and light and innocence ever since Rousseau so put all five of his children we'll find out they died? so maybe we so we won't talk too much about Rousseau and and then the next taboos.

Other parents can dislike their children. But if you're clinician and you don't think that parents can dislike their children, then well, then, while then you're not a clinician, because one of the things you constantly see is that pathology within always is an incredibly con common source of psychological destabilization right and it's terrible tension between parents and their children and between siblings. What I suggest in them in the book, which I think is radical by today, standards is that your fundamental job is apparent is ensure that by the time your child is four years old that they are maximally desire. Two other children and to adults, because what happens is that after the age of four, you aren't Mary agent of Socialization

social world? Becomes the primary agent of socialization and if your child is the sort of child that's invited to play by other children, because your child is capable of forestalling gratification and taking turns and playing someone else's game when, when its necessary and abiding by the rules and not having a temper tantrum when they lose and not getting too, you know hi on their horse when they win, then many Children will invite them. You get married when you have children and your flawed in your partner flawed and hopefully your flawed in different ways, and so you put the two of you together and you make one approximately normal person and then hopefully, and then Child has to interact with that dialogue. That is a reasonable represent. Of social norms and if they disappear. If your child disappoints you with their behaviour, the probability that they will disappoint, other people is very high,

you have an ethical obligation to ensure that your child is behaving the matter that makes them optimally desirable to their playmates and also to other adults because then pay the kids invite them to play and they get to be socialize right. They get they have friends, for God's sake is like what do you want for your kids? How about some France, wouldn't that be nice, maybe what you like as that they regulate their behaviour, well, so that when you take them, places restaurants to see your friends to see your relatives, they behave in a man, that sufficiently civilized, so their intrinsic charm wins over the adults and every They go. People are smiling and welcoming. Instead of wishing with fake smiles that the damn brat would leave along with their foolish parents, which is not a good. That's, not a good environment. To have your child constantly exposed to know

friends, because there too selfish and immature and irritated you're irritating to adults so that their barely tolerated under the mask of false smiles. Take you have an ethical obligation to regulate you're Charles Behaviour so that their optimally acceptable socially, and that is no. How people look at children in the modern world. They think. Well, you raising their self esteem or you're enhancing their creativity. Are you don't wanna put constraints on their behaviour because you're going to interfere with the flowering of there intrinsic self- and you know it's all. So we are nonsense. And there's no evidence do you know all migrant backgrounds and worse father. Who is the area in such a corrupt, and he had these babies with this poor scullery mate. He left them all in a actually a place where they would just languishing die. Yeah right, five of them Rousseau, yeah

I know exactly when a man is intrinsically good example shows that I just remember a few ago was really meant you in and somehow I got under. Somebody's twitter feed whom I will not mention, because, oh my god that anyway but difficult person- and she was attacking you and had a selection from near book where you'd called to you little monsters and so suddenly, all of these distraught twitter, hours of this feminist we're take them stir little illustrates yet little man there's no occasionally there'd be a parent who would take the kind two year olds our monsters. You know that there be a kind of art and they had taken this out of context and shone like something to deplore and it was so amusing to me.

This little probably will soon be curse. The sum to Euro American right there's someone over and I want to do, which was to yourself and had he was a good boy, insane meltdown in a supermarket. I was with my mother. We of pretended. We can know up a pair, oh yeah, yeah. What have we heard? People say? Oh, my God had more have watching a two year old. Have a tantrum is its illegal dinner, and here I want to be a success. We had a boy who used to be like when my wife was taking care of markets than ours. There was a little boy who who who had learned to throw a pretty decent and- and he would do that and it didn't work in our house Can we just leave him, have his tantrum and going into a different room, and then he kind of wake up out of it now wouldn't be anybody around, and so that like, if you put all that Words are dramatic display and euro zero warriors. It's not you're, not going to sustain it anyways. He could actually to hold his breath until he turned

You should try to go home and see if you can do that in front of the mirror. Man like a toy it's very, very guy who, and will you do it was impressive. It was an end to euros, are very impressive. There there of unbelievable outbursts of rage and, and this emotion and your job is, you know, they're driven these underlying National systems are unbelievably powerful and is part of what makes them delightful, because we happy there insanely happy and when there are playful, their incredibly playful, and so the positive end of them is is way exaggerated compared to you know, or rather drab adult. And so it makes two year olds extraordinarily interesting. But the same is true on the negative emotion side there completely this regulated, and it's really hard on you like to have a two year old, who isn't in control of their emotions, means that you have a child whose developing central personality you know they're they're Eagle for lack of a better.

Where is constantly being swamped by these powerful underlying emotional systems? You know what it's like, if you are enraged for any period of time or if your engulfed by grief like its exhausting. It's it's demeaning and its exhausting, and it's the same with little kid. It's like it's a real defeat for the developing integrated individual to be, subjugated by those catastrophically, powerful, emergent, emotions and part of your job is apparent. Is too scaffold the part of the? child that can regulate and inhibit those powerful underlying system. So with my son, for example, when he used to miss behave, I would count say: you're gonna go sit on this day,

he'd say: oh no or not. I say: oh yes, you are and then usually it after chased him round, because he wouldn't go sit on the steps, and so I put him on the steps so you're going to sit there until you ve got yourself under control, and so he took no, I not say yes, you are in any trying to get up and I just told him say: you're gonna sit there, I'm gonna hold you till you sit there. No, I'm not like. I can wait a two year old, so I usually one those battles needs it and say: look kid this the deal. It's too thinks like you and have a bad day. Are you one of a good day think about tat? We have a good day because you have a bad day. We can have a bad days. You sit here is soon to control yourself and you ready to be civilised. Then you can come back and we can have a good day so sit there, just just. I was unbelievable, the Wash Justine in with rage and all just try

get himself under control. You know, and so I'd come back thirty seconds later and I'd say you know, but got yourself got your together at our weight and usually talkum, two or three. That's a need, calm down and then come back out needs a barn ready to have a good day and any meant it in a way I can tell we meant to because whatever resentment I was harbouring towards him for his miss behaviour, and you have to watch that when you're in adult would vanish because he'd come in here, he was done. He was ready. Just you know, to proceed on a civilised basis It was really interesting to watch that because it took them every time he sat on the steps it took him a shorter and shorter period of time to attain mastery right. Until you know, I've got to the point where he could only have to sit for fifteen seconds so when he would bring himself under control, and that was it

victory like you. If you imagine the neurological systems develop, that are responsible for personality integration was a victory for those systems because they were it. Gaining the ability to regulate the lower order, spontaneous emotions, and you know, and and it turned into an individual who is capable of a tremendous lever, self control and when he had large game I was going absolutely and and and well it turned out well from my daughter too, because she ended up being very ill and he we ended up being extraordinarily level. Then reliable, and thank God for that. Could you could you come to my house into that? For my little multiple, easy because I can't I can't I can't trainer she's like online- unites the next book. The dog, rules on how to train your dog. You have forty, you cats. What here,

That's why we're all connected to it like? What's with putting the cat, I wrote about dogs for two pages to begin with, just to satisfy the door. They didn't satisfying their nordic Council despite the sort will we can't thank you enough for coming here. I know the audience is just so delighted to have the to hear you well unruly members and I got the chance to talk. We live links of tar. I've met you liked, ruminants, we met in DC, but actually see you we have asked electron. Yes, yes, you wiped path There was that we're not going into that you every day here. Thank you, Jordan, TVS and.