Welcome decision, three episode of the Jordan, be Petersen, Podcast, I'm, Le Petersen, Jordan's daughter, hope you enjoy this episode? It's called the phenomenology of the divine asked in surround the other day where in the world it was normal out, I got feedback for and taxes are apparently kind of normal. I can. Save. This is normal for Florida, I'm not looking forward to returning to Canada. Croatia in Greece in Sweden are also pretty good. Apparently so there is some random information for you, my boy cast his out the Le Petersen Podcast. The first episode was with Aubrey Marcus and it was released yesterday. I also least one with Hamilton Morris MAX Luke Viewer and Greco Gallagher. If you had to my website Mikhail Petersen, dot com, you can check it out if your interested, I'm pretty proud of it, did all the

graphics and everything myself. I do have a handy, podcast man helping out with sound, though anyway, about me and onto the episode. You guys, know my passion for researching my family origins and how I've been using ancestry, dot com more than any other resource. This week, in honour of the seventy fifth anniversary of the end of world war, two ancestry. Dot com has just released a: U S: draft card collection from world war. Two, it has For thirty six million draft cars completed by fighting age man in the United States across the country during that time, whether they up serving or not these men, left home to fight for the highest possible purpose and there's a great chance that your relatives are among them. In fine things like their home address physical description and other details about their lives. I didn't have any relatives the fall in world WAR two or World WAR one. My great! grandma- actually went and got my sixteen year old, great grandpa

and brought him home when he tried to go fight in world war. One. Discover your untold stories and more had to my url at ancestry. Dot, com, Slash Jordan to start Discovering your story today. That's history, dot, com, slashed, Jordan ever One is thinking about health. These days, in addition to improving your health here and now, you know: improve your house ban, which is the number of years. You live disease, free as you age, dad. I have been attempting to do this by getting an eighty treatments. In our case, these treatments, have also resulted in improved mood and energy level. And I ve been getting an energetic buzzing feeling in a good way The only downside, is that these treatments involve being hooked up to an ivy raid hours. We don't the time or patients for that again, alternative is a supplement called basis produced by the company Elysium Basis, works by increasing you're, an eighty levels and activating what scientists collar longevity genes. Many of them

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We're going to finish off the story of Noah and also the story of the Tower of Babel, I dont think that'll. Take very long and then we're going to. Turned to the Abraham EC stories and they are very complex set of stories. They sit between the earliest stories and genesis. Would say end with the tower of Babel and then the stories of Moses, which are stored nearly well developed neighbour, mixed or there's a whole sequence of them. Multiple stories can join together and here I found them very daunting. Very difficult understand, and so I'm going

stumble through them, the best that I can, I would say, That'S- that's probably the best way to think about this, because the the way they have a narrative content- that's quite strange. I was, reading a book well doing this called the disappearance of God that I found quite helpful and. The author of that book argues that one of these if that happens in the old testament- is that God is very manifest at the beginning in terms of peace, No appearances even and then that proclivity Aids away as the old testament develops and there's a. A parallel development that they may be, Maybe causally linked not exactly sure how to conceptualizing, but that appears to be closely linked as that the.

The stories about individuals become more and more well developed, so it's as if it's as, if as God fades away, so to speak. The individual becomes more and more manifest and that there is a statement in the old testament, the location of which I don't recall, but I'll tell you about it in future. Actors we're God, essentially tells whoever he speaking with, and I don't remember who that is that he's going to disappear and let man Assent They go is own way and see what happens not a complete disappearance but maybe a transformation to something that monitoring with regard more as a psychological phenomena, rather than the sort of active entity that God seems to be. The beginning of the biblical stories I've been wrestling with a lot, because the notion that God

I got appears Abraham multiple times and it's not a concept that easy for modern people too. To grasp in for us generally speaking up apart from say, issues Of faith, God isn't some thing someone who makes himself personally manifest in our lives. Appear to us. That's, I suppose, why the question of belief is so paramount for modern people, I presume- if God had was in the habit of appearing to you, likely wouldn't have a problem with belief mean might be more complicated. But that's how it seems to me and so we read stories about God making himself manifest to a nation say in the case of Israel, or to individuals It's not easy to You stand.

It's not easy to understand why people would write stories like that if they thought like, we thought- and I mean really it wasn't that long ago, that the Bible was written, say from a biological perspective. It's really only yesterday, it's a couple thousand years safe, four thousand years. Something like that. It's not very long ago from a biological perspective. It's it's nothing so, The first thing I tried to do was to I can figure out how to understand that, and so all start the lecture. Once we finish the. The remains of others. We have no off start the lecture with a deal with an attempt to situate the Abraham EC stories in a context that might make them more accessible, the context that work for me to make them more accessible. That's conclude the newer story. First, however, when we ended last time.

The Ark had come to its resting place and No one is family had debarked. And so this is the stories of It occurs immediately after afterwards, its very short story, but I think it's it's very relevant for These stories, the Tower of Babel as well, very relevant for our current times and the sons of Noah they went fourth of the ark we're sham and ham and Jeff S. And how is the Father of Cannon. These are the three sons of Noah and of them was the whole earth overspread and no began to be had husbandman, and he. Planet a vineyard. And he drank of the wine and was drunken and he was uncovered within his tent and ham, the father of Cane and saw the nakedness of his father and told his two brethren without.

French german java took a garment and laid upon both their shoulders and went backwards covered, the nakedness of their father and their faces were backward, and they saw not their fathers. Nakedness and know awoke from his wine and knew what his younger son had done. Unto him- and he said cars to be Canaan a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. And he said, bless it shall be the law. God of Champagne and shall be his servant and God shall Jeff S and he shall dip dwell in the tents of sham and cane and she'll, be his servant and no After the flood three hundred and fifty years and all the days of Noah we're nine hundred and fifty years and he died and the whole earth was of one language and of one speech. Ok, so I remember Thinking about this story, gotta be thirty years ago,

I think the meaning of the stories stood out for me. Sometimes when you read located material. Sometimes a piece of it will stand out. It's for some reason. It's like glitters- I suppose that might be one way of thinking about it. It's yours, sink with it and you can understand what it means, I've really experienced that reading the doubt teaching, which has document. I would really like to do a lecture on at some point. Because some of the verses I dont understand but others stand right out and I can understand them, and I think I understood what this part of the story of no amount, and I think it means you know we talk a little bit about what nakedness meant story of Adam and Eve and the idea essentially was that to know yourself naked is become aware of your vulnerability, the physical you're physical boundaries in time and space and your your Europe. Physiological you're funding, until physiological inefficiencies, as they mate might be judged by others. So there's bias

Google insufficiency that sort of built into you, because you're, a fragile, mortal vulnerable, half insane creature and that's that's just an existential truth and then, of course, even more we as a human being, even with all those false. There are false that you have that are particular to you. That might be judged hard. We buy, the group, while might be, will definitely be judged harshly by the group, and so become aware of your nakedness is to become self conscious and and two and two together your limits and to know your vulnerability and that's what Is revealed. To him when he comes. Ass his father naked, and so the question is what does it mean to see your father naked and its seems to me, and especially in an appropriate manner like this it it's it's it's as if PAM He does the same thing that happens in the mesopotamian creation myth when, when time out

Apps, who give rise to the first gods in There- there. The father of the eventual deity of redemption, Marduk. There are very careless and noisy, and they killed Abu, their father and attempt to inhabit his corpse, and that makes time out enraged, and so she burst forth from the darkness to to do them in its like a precursor to the flood story, or an analog to that story- and I see the same thing happening here with him- is that he's He's insufficiently respectful of his father Question is exactly what does the farther represent and you could say, weathers. There's, there's the fall there is that you have and that's a human being. That's that's a man like other man, a man among men, but then there's the father as such, and that's the Spirit of the Father and insofar as you have a father, you have both at the same time, you have the purse father.

That's a man among other man, just like any one, others father, but in so far as that man is your father. That means that he something different than just another person, and what are years is the incarnation of the Spirit of the father and to see that to take it to what to disregard That carelessly, maybe even nor makes a mistake, ready. Produces wine and gets himself drunk and you might say. Well, you know, if he's sprawled out there. For everyone to see it hardly hams fault if he stumbled across them, but the the is laying out of danger, and the danger is that well, maybe, catch your father at his Was more vulnerable moment and if you're disrespectful Then you transgress against the Spirit of the Father, and if you transgress against the Spirit of Father and lose Spirit, the father, and lose respect for the Spirit of the Father than that

likely to transform you into a slave. That's a interesting idea- and I think it's particularly interesting- maybe not particularly interesting- but it's Is particularly germane, I think, to our current culture situation, because I think that were pushed instantly to see the naked this of our father, so to speak because the intense criticism of direct, towards our culture and the paper of culture. So to speak, we're com ITALY, exposing its weaknesses and vulnerabilities and lets say nakedness and. There's nothing wrong with criticism, but the thing criticism is, the purpose of criticism is to separate the wheat from the chaff the burn everything to the ground. Right is to say well. We're going to carefully. Look at this we're going to carefully differentiate. We're gonna, keep what's good and we're going to move away from. What's bad but the point. Criticism is to identify everything is bad. It's two separate what

good from what's bad so that you can retain what's good and move towards it to be careless. It that is, is deadly because you're inhabited by the Spirit of the Father right insofar as you're a cultural construction, which, of course, is something that the that the post modern new marxists- are absolutely emphatic about Europe's cultural construction in Far as you're a cultural construction, then you are inhabited by the Spirit of the father and to be disrespectful words that means undermine the very structure that makes you not What you are certainly certainly not all of what you are, but a good portion of what you are in so far as yours, socialized cultural entity and few poor, if you the foundation out from underneath that what do you have left you can hardly manage on your own in all. Not possible your cultural creation and so TAT makes this desperate error

is careless about. Exposing himself to the vulnerability of his father, something like that he does it without sufficient respect, and the judgment is that Not only will he be a slave, but so all of his descendants, he's contrasted with the other two sons who. I suppose, are willing to give their father the benefit of the doubt. Something like that, and so when they see him and uncompromising compromising position. They handle it with respect and and and capitalize on it. And maybe that makes them strong. That's what it seems to me, and so I think that but that story means. It has something to do with respect. The funny thing about having respect for your call I suppose, that, partly why I'm doing the biblical stories is because they are part of our one of my culture that part of our culture perhaps, but there are certainly part of my culture.

And it seems to me that is worthwhile treat that with respect to see what you can glean from it, and and not get when it's down. Let's say so. And so that tell the story of no ends. You no one, the thing to was, nor is actually. A pretty decent incarnation of the Spirit of the father that which I support is one of the things that makes hams miss step more egregious is that, as we know it, built an in and got everybody through the flood man. You know it's not so bad in, so maybe the fact that he happen. Drink too much wine. One day wasn't enough. To justify humiliating him- and you know I don't gets pushing the limits of symbolic interpretation to know on a daily basis that we're all contained in an arc right. That's the ark that you can do.

But that is the Ark that's been bequeathed to us by our forefathers. That's the truth. This infrastructure that we inhabit that we too for granted, because work so well that protection from things that we can't even imagine- and we don't have to imagine- because we're so well protected and soul, One of the things that really struck me hard. I would say about that, disintegration and corruption of the universities is the absence. In gratitude goes along with that. You know it Criticism, as I said, is a fine thing stunned in the Spirit in a proper spirit the spirit of separating the wheat from the chaff, but it needs be accompanied by gratitude It does seem to me that anyone who lives in in the west in in the west we culture at this time in history and in this place. And who isn't simultaneously grateful for that is, is is half blind at least,

because it's never been better than this. It could be so much worse. It is highly likely that it will be so much worse because for most of human history, so much worse is the norm. So. Then there's this little story that crops up that aims in some ways unrelated to everything- that's gone before it, but I it's also extremely profound little story. It took me Time to figure it out the tower of Babel. And it came to pass as they journeyed from the east that they found a plain in the land of sugar and dwelt. There. That's was descendants and hole. Was of one language and of one speech to pass as they journeyed from the east that they found a plain in the land of sooner and they dwelt there and they said to one another go. Let us make brick and burn them thoroughly, and they have

four stolen slime. They had four mortar There stabbing a city and they said, though let us build a city and the tower whose top may reach under Heaven. Let us make a name lest we scattered abroad, upon the face of the earth. And the Lord came down to see the city in the tower which the children of men built and the Lord said behold The people is one and they all have one language, and now this they begin to do, and no nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down and their confound their language that they may What understand one another speech, so Lord scattered them abroad from thence Upon the face of all the earth and they left off to build, the city, therefore, is the name of it called Babel, because the Lord did their confound, the language of all the earth and from there Did the Lord scattered them abroad upon them?

of all the earth to very difficult story to understand it's on the fire. Of it it doesn't seem to show God and a very good light happens fairly frequently in the old testament. As far as I can tell, but. You know the thing to do if you're reading in the spring, of the text, let's say, is to remember that it's gone You're talking about and so. Even though you might think that he's a in a bad light, Your duty as a reader, I suppose, is too soon that you're wrong and that what he did was right and then you're supposed to figure out. Well, how could it possibly be right, because the axiomatic presupposition is that it's God in whatever he does, is right and you might say what you can disagree without and it's it's so the case that some of the people that God talks too in the old testament, actually disagree with him and convince them to alter his actions but the point, still remains that it's God and if he's doing it than by

definition there's a good reason. There's an idea much later than John Milton develops in. In Paradise lost Which is an amazing home, and it it's it's it's it's it's a profound enough poem so that has almost been incorporated into the biblical structure would say so. The corpus of Christianity, Post Milton. Was saturated by the Milton stories of Satan's rebellion. None of that, in the end, in the biblical text It's only hinted at in a very brief passages in Milton wrote his poem. To justify the work. The ways of demand, which is quite an ambition, really It's amazing, profound ambition to try to produce something To produce a literary work

justifies being to human beings. That would melt was trying to do one of my readers here, sent me a link the other day viewers to work of philosophy by in Austria. And philosopher whose name I don't remember basically wrote a book saying that. Being, as such, human Europe is so corrupt and so permeated by Suffering that it would be better if it had never, listed at all, so the ultimate russian of nihilism, Bertha in in fact, his MID Mephistophelean, whose satanic character, obviously that is a credo. That's that's Satan's fundamental motivation is his objections creation itself. Is the creation is so flawed and so rife with suffering that it would be better if it had never. Just did at all, and so that's his motivation for attempting to continue to destroy it. In Milton's Paradise lost.

Satan is an intellectual figure and you see that motif emerge very frequently by the way in popular culture. So for example, in the lion king, the figure star, whose satanic figure is also. Hyper intellectual, and that very common that you know it's the evil scientist motif or the or the evil advisor to the king. The same motif it in cap wait. Something about rationality and what it seems to encapsulate is the idea that rationality like Satanist is the high angel in God's heavenly kingdom. It's a psychological idea. You know that the most powerful, sub element of the human psyche is the intellect and in its thing that shines out. Above all members within the mean of humanity and maybe across the The domain of life itself, the human intellect, there's something absolutely remarkable about it, but it has a flaw in the floor is that it tends to fall in love. With its own productions and to assume

That their total solzhenitsyn, when he was writing the gulag archipelago had a warning about that with rigour leads to touch whatever unity, and he said that the price of selling your God, given soul to the entrapment, of human dogma was slavery and death, essentially Satan. In May, in Milton's, Paradise lost Satan, decides that, he can do without the transcendent he can do without God, and that's why ferments rebellion its things like that in the consequence of that the immediate cause Coins from Milton's perspective was that as soon as Satan decided that what he knew was sufficient and that he could do without the transcendent which you might think about as the domain outside of what you know. Something like that, immediately he was in hell and

when I read Paradise lost. I was studying totalitarianism and I thought you know the poet, the true poet like a profit. Is someone who intimations of the future. I maybe that's because The poetic mind, the philosophical or prophetic mind is a pattern. Detector and- and there are people who can do, tat. The underlying it's like the melody of of our nation melody. In song, the song of a nation and can see how it's going to develop across the centuries you see. There's you see that nature because nature, for example, in the mid you know it ten sixty or so many prophecied. What was going to have the twentieth century said that specifically that the spectre of communism would kill millions of well in the twentieth century, the maid prophecy, he said that in the notes that became wheel to power, Does was of the same sort of mine, someone who was in, that's enough with the fund mental patterns of of of

of human movement, that they could extrapolate out into the future and see what was coming, and I mean something a very good at detecting patterns in Oakland Milton, think was of that sort and I think, had intimations of what was coming as Human rationality became more and more powerful in technology became more and more powerful. And the information was that we would produce systems that dispensed with God completely rational and completely total. That would mean ITALY, turn everything they touched into something. Indistinguishable from Hell. And the milk is warning was embody and the problem is that. The rational mind that rates of production and then worships it as if its absolute immediately occupies hell. So what does that to do with the Tower of Babel, we know it

back into two thousand and eight when the when, when we that economic collapse strange idea emerged politically, and that was the idea of too big to fail, What about that idea for a long time, because I thought that what this, deeply wrong with that is one of the things that made me wrong was I believe that capital would flow into the hands of fewer and fewer people and that the. Dissociation between the rich and the poor would become more extreme. Is capitalism developed and. Like so many things that Mark said that it's kind of true. It's kind of true in that. The distribution of wealth and, in fact the distribution of anything that's produced follows parental pattern, and the pride pattern, basically, is that a small proportion of pay We end up with the bulk of the goods and it isn't-

this money, it's it's anything that people produce creatively ends up in that distribution and that's actually the economy. Call up the Matthew Principle and they take that from our statement in the new testament and the statement is to those we have everything more will be given and from those who have nothing. Everything will be taken and it's it's a map of the map manner in which the world manifests itself work. Human creature Production is involved in the map seems to indicate that, as you start to produce and you're successful the probability that you will continue to be successful or accelerate increases as you're successful and as you fail, the probability that you will fail starts to accelerate so in progress through life looks this or like this? Something like that and reason that marks was right was because he knew did that as a feature of the capitalist the reason that he was wrong. Is that it's not a fee sure that specific to a capitalist system, its feet,

that's general to all systems of creative production that are known. And so it's like a natural law and its enough of a natural law by the ways that the distribution, of wealth can be mortal by physical models using the same equation that govern the distribution of gas molecules in a vacuum. So it's a the profound it's a fundamentally profound observation about the world where the world lays itself out and problematic, because if. Resources, a crew unfairly to a small minority of people and there's enough natural law like element to that that has to be done. With from a social perspective. Because if the inequality becomes too to extreme, then the whole system will destabilize you can have an intelligent discussion about how to it gave the effects of the. And spur of creative production into the house. Of a small number of people

now the other reason. However, having said that, the other reason that marks was wrong. There's a number of them one is that, even though creative products End up in the hands of a small number of people: it's not the same people consistently across time. It's the same proportion of people and that's the same thing. You know like and that is what are going down the drain and you say, will look at the spiral, its permanent you, since with the previous distribution. Is that the water molecules aren't there moving through it it's the same in some sense with a pretty distribution is that there is a one percent there's always a one percent, but the same people its and in the stability of a differs from. Culture, the culture but there's a lot of movement in the upper one percent, a tremendous amount of movement and one of the reasons for that movement is that things get large.

And then they get too large and then they collapse and so in two thousand and eight when the politicians said too, to fail, they got something truly backwards as far as I can tell, and that was. It was a reverse. The statement was reversed, it should have been so, It had to fail and that's what I think the story of the Tower of Babel is about it. It's a warning against. The expansion of the system. Until it encompasses everything. It's a warning against totalitarian presumption. So what happens, for example, when people said to build the tower of Babel as they want to build a structure that reaches to Heaven. Right. So the idea is that it can. It can see it can replace it can replace the role of God. It's something like that. It can The distinction between Earthen Heaven and so there's utopian kind of vision there, as well as we can build.

Structure that so large and encompassing that that it can replace Heaven itself. That's an interesting the fact that doesn't work and got objects to. It is also extraordinarily interesting and its education to me of the unbelievable profundity of these stories, like Think one thing we should have learned from the twentieth century but of course didn't was that this? thing extraordinary dangerous about totalitarian utopian visions at something last s. Key wrote about by the way in his great book notes underground, because Dostoevsky figured out by the Earl nineteen hundred that there was some very, very pathological about a utopian vision of perfection that it was profoundly anti human and and notes notes from underground. He demolishes the notion of Toby at one of the things he says that I loved it so brilliant. So imagine that you brought the socialist utopia into being, and does

Bfg says that human beings had nothing to do except eat. Drink and busied themselves with the continuation of the species. He said that the first thing that would happen under circumstances like that would be that human things would go mad and break the system smash it just so that something unexpected and crazy could happen. Because human beings don't want you to being comfort and certainty they want it sure and chaos and uncertainty that the very notion of a utopia was anti human because we're not four static. Utopia were built for a dynamic situation where there's man's placed on us and where there is the double amount of uncertainty. What we know what happened in the tour century as a consequence of the widespread

Promulgation of utopian schemes, and what happened was a am on a scale that had never been ouch, in the entire history of humanity, and that's really saying something because. There was plenty of May him before the twentieth century Guess there wasn't as much industrial close behind it. And so so early. You see So early in the biblical narrative, you have a warning against hubris and and some indication that problem functioning systems have an appropriate scale. I read an article in the economist magazine this week about the rise of nationalist movements all over the world a counterbalance to globalization. Maybe it's most. Market with the European Economic Community and the economists Writers were curious about why

counter movement has been developing. But it seems to me that It's also a tower of Babel phenomena. Is that. Maybe this is most evident in the European Economic Community today all of that multiplicity under the. What would you call it under the umbrella of a single unity? Is Two simple technically erect a system where the top is so far from the bottom. That's the bottom has no connection to the top. You know you you're your social systems have to be large enough, so they protect you but small enough, so that you have a place in them. And it seems to me perhaps that's what's happened in pay. Is like the sea is that the distant between the typical citizen and the bureaucracy, that runs the entire structure has got great that its element of

these stabilize in and of itself, and so people revert back to say nationalistic identities, because it's something that they can relate to. It. There's a there's, a history there in a shared identity, a genuine identity, gent and an identity of language and tradition. That's not an artificial imposition from the top and artificial abstract imposition in in the egyptian creation. Myth. The version I'm from the most familiar with in the previous creation myth. An older one. They mesopotamian creation miss most. What you see: menacing humanity is time out she's the dry Kind of chaos, and so that's nature- it's really It's really mother Nature read in tooth and claw. But by the time the Egyptians come along it isn't only nature that threatens humanity.

It's the social structure itself and so the if she had to day rubber the social structure and one was Cyrus who is like the spear? the father. He was a great hero, who established Egypt, but became old and and will fully blind and and and and see now and he had an evil brother name says and says: always conspiring to overthrow him and because Cyrus ignored him long enough. South did overthrown, chopped him into pieces and distributed all around the kingdom. His son Horace, had to come back and fight Iris son Horace had to come back and defeat says too the kingdom back, that's how story ends, but the egyptian seem to have realised, maybe because they had become bureaucracy, ties to quite a substantial degree that it wasn't only nature that threatened human And it was also the

clearly of human organizations to become too hard two unwieldy to deceitful and two wilfully blind and therefore liable to collapse? and again I see echoes of that in this story of the Tower of Babel, so calling for. I kind of humility of social engineering. One of the other things I've learned as a social scientist. I've been warned about, despite, I would say great, so scientists that. You want to be very careful about doing it scale, experimentation with large scale systems being. The probability that, if you implement a scheme. In a large scale, social system that there scheme will have the result you intended is negligible. What will happen will be something that you don't intend and even worse, something that

that counter purposes to your original intent and so on that. Makes sense, because if you have very, very complex system, and you perturb it the probability that you can predict the consequence of the perturbation is extraordinary low. Obviously,. If the system works, though you you think you understand it because it works, and so you think it simpler than it actually is. And so then you think that your model of it is correct, and then you think that you're, the population of the model, which produces don't come, you model will be Come that's actually produced in the world, not doesnt work at all. I thought about that. An awful lot. Thinking about how to remediate social systems because of you they need Full attention and adjustment, and it struck me that the proper. Strategy for.

Implementing social change is stay within your domain of competence, that requires humility, which is a virtue that is never. Promoted in modern culture, I would say it's it's, a virtue that you can even talk about, humility means you, probably not. As smart as you think, you are, and you should be careful- then the question might be well. Ok, you should careful. But perhaps you still want to do good, you want to make some positive changes. How can you be careful and do good, and then I would why you try not to step outside of the boundaries of your competence and you small and you start with, things that you actually could just that. You actually do understand that you actually could fix. I mentioned to you one point that one of the things curl Young said was that modern, mend Dorsey Guy because they don't look low enough so very interesting phrase and one of the things that I've been promote I suppose

online is the idea that you should restrict your attempts to fix things to what's at hand. So there's probably things about you that you could fix right things that you know that aren't right, not any. Also opinion your own opinion that aren't right. You can fix them. Maybe there's some things that you could just in your family, that gets hard. You have have your act together. A lot before you can start to adjust your family because things can kick back on you really hard and you think well put yourself together. It's really to put your family together, why the hell? Do you think you can put the world together? right, because obviously the world is more complicated than you and your family, and so you, if you're, stymied in your attempts, even to set your own house in order which, of course, you are Then you would think that what that would do would be to make you very, very Leary about announcing your broad scale plans for social revolution.

What's a peculiar thing, because that isn't how it works, because people are much more likely to announce their plans for both scale social revolution, then they To try to set themselves straight or to set their family street And I think the reason for that is that a soon They try to set themselves straight or their families, the sis immediately kicks back at them. Right, instant, whereas, if they announced their plans for large scale social revolution, the I between the announcement and kicked back is so long that they don't reckon. I that there is any error there, and so you can get away with being wrong if, if if nothing falls on you for a while and so and it's also an insult Meant to hubris, because you can now use your plans, for large scale social revolution instead, can you dont get hit by lightning, and you think why be right, even though you're not you're seriously, not right might be right and then you think well, I wonder

Is that, especially if you could do it without any real effort? And I really do think- Fundamentally, I believe that that universities teach students now that's what they teach them to do, I really believe that I think it's absolutely appalling and I its horribly dangerous It's not that easy to fix things. Especially if you dont, especially not committed to it and, I think, No, if your committed, because what you try to do as you try to straighten out you're all life first and that's it look? There's us, I think it's a statement in the new testament. That is, I think, it's in the news. That is more difficult to rule yourself than to rule the city that's not a metaphor, so I All of you who made a now what's to yourself about change your diet and going to the gym every January, nor Equally well, how difficult it is to regulate your own impulses. And to bring yourself? thunder the

troll of some. What would you say? Well, structured and ethical attentive, Structure of values extra merely difficult and so people dont do it in the instead they wander off and I think they create tower of Babel and the story indicates well, those things collapse under their own weight and everyone was the wrong direction. I think I see that happening with the algae. Bt community, I think, because one of the things I ve noticed it's very interesting because the community. Is some sense: it's not a community, but that's a technical error, but It's it's composed of outsiders, let's say, and what notice across the decades is that the acronym list, keeps growing, and

think that's because there's an infinite number of ways to be an outsider, and so one you open the door to the construction of a group, that's characterized by Failing to fit into the group, then you immediate, create a category, that's infinitely expandable and so I don't know how long the acronym list is now depends which acronym list you consult, but I've seen lists ten or more acronyms on one of the things that happening is that the unity, starting to fragment in its in here because there is no unity once you put fishing for plurality under the sheltering structure of a single umbrella, say that Unity starts to appear within that's also its

manifestation of the same issue that this particular story is dealing with. So that ends, I would say, the most art hey EC stories in the in the Bible. There's something about the flood story and, and also the two of Babel. I think they old line the two fundamental dangers that beset mankind. One is the probability that blindness and sin will produce a natural catastrophe or entice one. That's something when people are very aware of in principle right because we're all hype concerned about environmental degradation and catastrophe, and so that's the continual ray activation of an architectural idea are in our own? just minds that there's something about the way we're living it's on sustainable and that will create a task it's so interesting, because people believe that firmly, and deeply and

but they don't see the relationship between now and the architectural stories story over something greed. All of that. Producing an unstable state and nature, Rebelled and take us down. You hear that every day in every newspaper and everything his station, its broadcast, you constantly so that ideas presented in in Genesis in the story of nor and then the other war. Bing that exists in the stories. One is beware of natural catastrophe that produced as a consequence of blindness and greed will say. The other is beware of so the structures that over reach because also produce fragmentation and disintegration, and so its core. Remarkable. I think that that, with at the close of the story of the Tower of Babel, we ve got both of them. The existential dangers that.

Sent themselves to humanity already identified. At the end of the story of Adam and Eve, there's like a fall into history So in one way, history begins with the fall, but there's like second fall. I think the flood in the Tower of Babel and history, in an even more real sense begins. Now it begins with the story of Abraham and it's it's. We're no longer precisely in the realm of the purely mythical that would be another way thinking about it. We have, identifiable person whose part of an identifiable tribe was doing identifiable. Things were in the realm of history, and so history, skins twice in the old testament. I suppose it began again after Moses as well, but. We moved out of the domain of the purely mythical into the realm of history with with the emerging. Of the stories about Abraham.

This is from Aldous Huxley. So the first thing that that I want to talk In relationship to the abrahamic stories, is this idea of the experience of God because Abraham. Although we'd identifiable as an actual individual, is also characterised by this peculiarity and the peculiarities that God manifests himself to Abraham? Both has a voice and but also as a presence, the stories never describe exactly how God and himself except now, he comes in the form of an angel, that's fairly concrete, but it's a funny thing that the author of or of the abrahamic stories seems to take the idea of god- would make an appearance. More or less for granted, and so it's very I think that part of the reason that I struggled so much with the Abraham stories, because it so hard to get a handle on that and to understand what that might mean

And so I'm gonna hit it from a bunch of different perspectives and will see if we can come up with some. Understanding of it. The first thing, I'll do is tell you a story about female neurologist. Whose name escapes me at the moment she wrote a book called my stroke of insight Jill Baltic think is her name and she was Harvard trained shoes. She had tat medical training from Harvard in Neuro psychological function and new alot about hemispheric specialization a little bit about hemispheric specialization before one of the way Of conceptualizing, the difference between the two hemispheres is that the left hemisphere operates in known territory and the right hemisphere operates in unknown territory. That's one way Thinking about the left hemisphere operates, the orderly domain in the right hemisphere, operates in the chaotic domain or left hemisphere operates in the domain of detail

and the Right hemisphere operates in the domain of the large picture. It something like that. Now People differ in their neurological wiring, so those are over generalizations, but that's ok. We will live with that for the time being it certainly not an over generalization to point out that you do in fact have two hemispheres and that their structures differ and if the Actions between them are cut which could happen. For example, if you had surgery for intractable epilepsy that each hemisphere would be capable of housing, its own consciousness. That's been well documented by neural neural, neurologist named Gazeta, who did and sparing who did split brain experiments. Must be thirty years ago now, so We know that the right and left hemisphere or specialised for different functions, the right him Here, for example, seems to be more involved in degeneration of negative emotion and the left is more

involved in the generation of positive emotion and approach. So the right hemisphere stops you in the left hemisphere moves you forward, anyways Jill all day. I hope I've got that right at a stroke. And maintained consciousness during the stroke and analysed Well, it was happening and she was able well, it was happening too hypothesize about what part of her brain was being destroyed. And what he had a congenital blood vessel malformation and had it aneurysm and it just about killed her. But she said that affected are left hemisphere and she said that experienced a sense of divine unity as a consequence of the stroke. Because the left hemisphere function was disrupted and destroyed, and so became right hemisphere, dominant and hurry.

Spears. If that was the dissolution of the specific ego into the into ab. Lose consciousness. Something like that now that, LEO case Study- and you don't want to make too much of case studies but there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that those two kinds of consciousness exist. One being. You're consciousness of you as a localised specified. Being. And the other being this capacity to experience. Oceanic dissolution and the sense of the word most being one. Now why we have those capacities for different conscious experiences? is very difficult to understand. Mean part of me thinks that Maybe we have a generic human brain. That's the brain, the species and allied without we have a specific individual brain

and one is the left hemisphere and the other is the right hemisphere, the left hemisphere, being the specific individual brain and usually it's on and working, because you obviously have to take care of yourself as a spur again duty and not as a generalised caused. Phenomena it's hard to dice salary, when you're a generalised, cosmic phenomena right, so have to be more pointed than that, but but look well, let's make no mistake about it. The fact that those differences, of consciousness exist is not disputable. They can be elicited In all sorts of ways- and so I'm gonna, give you something that Aldous Huxley wrote about this back. I think at nineteen fifty six. This was after he. Started. His experimentation with mescal in this could Alex were introduced into western culture in the nineteen fifties and whole bunch of front ways. So us I've been mushrooms, LSD and was discovered at the end of world war, two it was discussed.

By accident actually lie? retorted Sandoz Labs, the guy who discovered it Albert Hoffman, spilled some on his hands, you can absorb through your skin and he biking home and had the world's first lsd trip, which was Somewhat of a shock to him and then to the entire world, Huxley who was again literary figure. A real genius experimented with. When, in the late fifties and heroic called the doors of perception which had a huge impact on the emerging psychedelic culture, both on the east coast. It. At Harvard and on the West Coast, with can QC in his merry pranks authors, the people who popularized lsd- that's all documented in a book called the electric cooler acid test, which I would highly recommend its Tom off. It's brilliant book I'm on EAST Coast, it was Timothy Leary. I had Timothy Larry's old job at Harvard I was kind of cool warped way so,

I met people there who knew him who didn't think much of him also, but who did Huxley had this mescal inexperience and transported him to this old Native consciousness and he's The during his mescaline experience that the entire world glowed from within, like there was an inner light A paradise, a leaner light, and then everything was deeply meaningful and symbol. Weekly suggestive and overwhelming, and beautiful and timeless so here experience of divine eternity suppose is this most straight or would to put that- and we know perfectly well that the psychedelic drug- that all share the same chemical structure. They interact with green chemical called serotonin which is a very very fundamental neurotransmitter they'll have power, the same range of effects. Although those effects are very, very large multitude of effects that that sort of existence,

Set umbrella Huxley was. Staggered by his mescal inexperience, hee hee really know what to make of it, and I think that that's the common experience of people who have exceptionally profound psychedelic experiences. Some documentation about that in a moment. But he spent quite long time, trying to come to grips with what this might mean from an intellectual perspective and in Huxley. Great brain I mean if someone was gonna wrestle with the problem like that he was candidate pay must have had a verbal like you, ve hundred eighty I mean he's is, but are incredibly literate. Incredible credible. Ass three of language and complexity. Characterisation and and internet to discourse really remarkable. So this is what Huxley had to say after his mescal experience, he talked about Heaven and hell and heat

about that in reference to bad trips, essentially because it was known by that point that Psychedelic experience can transport you to an extent domain. Of divine revelation, but could take you to the worst imaginable place as well, and Huxley was very interested in why you would even have the capacity for experiences like that and which I think is a very question, and it's completely unanswered. Questions mean we don't know much about consciousness and we know even less about psychic Alex, I would say they are an absolute mystery dont think we understand them in the least Huxley did a good job of starting to at least map out the mysteries of the terrain. He said like the earth of a hundred years ago. Our minds still has its darkest Africa's its Unnapped Borneo and amazonian basins. In relation to the foreigner of these regions. We are not yet zoologists, We are mere naturalists and collectors specimens the fat, it is unfortunate, but we have to accept it,

to make the best of it. However, lowly the work of the collector. Must be done before we can proceed to the higher scientific tasks of classification, analysis, experiment and theory making like the giraffe from the duck build Platypus the creatures inhabiting these remoter regions of the mind are namely improbable. Never they exists there. Facts of observation Dennis They cannot be ignored by anyone who is honestly trying to understand the world in which he lives. When psychiatry started to study LSD, there was more. In the late fifties and and running forward from that, they thought about the drug as a psychotic mimetic, which was chemical substance that would induce psychosis. But that turned out not be true not with the psychic Alex because skipper. Fredericks were given Alice.

And the gives reported that, while the expert experience was certainly Extraordinary strange it why Like being skits frantic was found later that if you gave schizophrenia amphetamines that made the Morse. In fact, you can induce a annoyed psychosis in person by overdosing them with impediments so whatever the hallucinogens or the sacred Alex are doing it, the same thing as mania and it's not Same thing, schizophrenia, not at all so. So you can't just right: they experience off as. And induced psychosis. Whatever. It is indeed, and of its utility, or lack thereof. It's not that now can be induced by drugs.

Can be induced by deprivation right to mean their accounts throughout history of people putting themselves in extreme physiological situations in order to use transformations of consciousness. Fasting is one of the routes to doing that. Dancing is another route. Isolation, prolonged periods of isolation will also do it. Now you, you could say that exposing yourself to any of those in excess produced. State this in distinguishable from illness and that there's no reason to assume that. The phenomena that are associated with illness have any utility whatsoever. Although its resting to me that, disrupted consciousness can produce coherent experiences. It's not exactly what you expect. It was just an illness. You know, if you develop, say a high fever, your experience, isn't transcendent and coherent

Fragmented in pathologist and and the difference I think, is quite distinct. Although we dont only, we don't have to only speculate about that because there's been enough experimental work done now with with regions and psychedelic to indicate that The notion that what they produce is something that's only akin to pathology is wrong it's not a matter of opinion at this point in the sequence scientific and historical investigation. Fact there was a large scale study done ten years five years ago of two thousand people who would experimented with psychedelic and they were mentally and physically healthier than people who hadn't on virtually every parameter. They examined. In fact, the rate of flashbacks. You ve heard of elastic flashbacks, mostly a hypothetical phenomena, but the of self reported flashbacks was higher among the non psychedelic users than among the psychedelic users.

So that was very interesting, was a huge study. Now it might be that you could say that those who had experimented with psychedelic were prone to be healthier to begin with, but that still contradicts the pathology arguments, so it doesn't matter either way the pass all The argument is contradicted now. All I did put that in it was doktor. You Jill Bold Taylor! This is what she said about her stroke. Without first day of the stroke with terrific bitter sweetness, in the absence of the normal functioning of my left orientation association area, my perception of my physical boundaries was no longer limited to wear. My skin met air like a genie liberated. Its bottle good metaphor.

The energy of my spirit seemed to float like a great whale gliding through a sea of silent euphoria. The absence of physical boundary was one of glorious bliss recently doktor, rolling, Griffith. I met him once at a conference in San Francisco, surprise, surprise, icon, for its own- and this was just when he was embarking on his experiments with suicide and which were the first experiments on Hulu regions that were permitted by the National Institute of Mental Health. In some three four decades he'd. He had to be very careful to lay out the scientific protocols so that the ethics committees would approve the experiments and so that, the federal funding? Agencies would also allow the experiments to go through. He started to experiment with So Simon

He's found a number of and published a number of very interesting results. One was that. A single suicide and trip in specified trip, because sometimes when people take so and out, the doses that Griffith uses they dont have a psychedelic experience, most people who take the dose do, but not everyone those who take the dose and don't have the mystical experience. Don't experience consequences of taking the drug and the consequences can be quite profound, so One consequence is that if you Have the mystical experience that's associated with suicide and ingestion? Your life but to represent tat to others and yourself as one of the two or three most experience important experiences of your entire life, so that would be At the same level as the birth of your choice or your marriage, but say assuming

Those were transcendent experiences, but but that's but that's how people describe them. So that's that's very interesting in and of itself, then the next thing that Griffith We think that Gryphus reported was that one year after. A suicide endorse a single source Ivan Dose profound enough induce a mystical experience. The trade Openness of the participants had increased Standard deviation, which a tremendous amount, and so it like one, those produced a person neurological and psychological transformation. Now you know I'm not saying that that's a good thing I'm not saying that, because I dont think that openness is on. Trouble blessing, but it certain a testament to the unbelievable potency of the of the drugs. It is about a ten percent chance by the way, with suicide, ingestion of a trip to hell and so

certainly something very much worth considering when you're thinking the potential effects of of this kind of experience. So the the mystical experience produced by so asylum is rated by people as the most profound among the most profound experience of their life as life, changing it produces permanent personality transformations Five percent success in smoking, cessation with a single, goes right. That's another thing that gryphus demonstrated. Not that is mind boggling, because there are chemical treatments for smoking, cessation Boop try on this one. It this is craving to some degree, but it success rate. Is nowhere near eighty five percent certainly not with a single dose and so. We don't understand how it can be that that occurs,

its nicely documented by Gryphus team in this experiment, he gave suicide and to people who are dying of cancer. Cancer patients often develop chronic clinically significant symptoms of depression and anxiety. Previous studies suggest that suicide and made decree, depression and anxiety in cancer patients, eldest son, We took lsd on his death bed by the way. So the idea that there was thing about sex Alex substances that could buffer people against The catastrophes of mortality is an idea, that's as old as experimentation with the drug itself. The effects of suicide and were studied in fifty one cancer patients with life threatening, diagnoses and symptoms of, present and anxiety. Unsurprisingly,.

I don't really know if it's reasonable to describe the emotional state of people diagnosed with cancer, of uncertain prognosis or mortal significance as depression. Precisely you know, you know what I mean is that if you go to the doktor- and he tells you that you have intractable fate, cancer the normative responses to be rather upset and anxious about that, and so it one of the things that What is me about clinical psychiatry in clinical psychology? Is the automatic presupposition that even overwhelming states of negative emotion are probably categorized as depression, because I don't think you're deprive When you get a cancer diagnosis, I don't think that the right way to think about it, I think that you have a big problem and it's not surprising that you're overwhelmed by negative emotion and to think about that as a psychiatric malfunction is a major error, but anyways did it's. It's it's a side issue with regard to this study.

The effects of some aside were studied in fifty one cancer, patients with life, threatening diagnosis and symptoms of depression and or anxiety, imagine how they got this through. An ethics committee is just one take people who have uncertain diagnosis of cancer that are potentially life threatening and we're going to give them psychedelic like, but they did. They did it didn't. I think it's a testament to Griffiths stature as a researcher that that that was allowable. This is a randomize doubled, Blind cross over trial very carefully designed clinical and navigation. People were assigned to the treatment group or the to the drug group or the Non drug group. Random. Blindly and. Investigated the affair, of the drug, also different doses, which is another hallmark of a well designed for MAC, general study very placebo, like those one three milligrams per seventy kilograms of body we versus high dose twenty two or three milligrams per seventy kilograms of of suicide and

Chemical suicide and administered in counterbalance sequence, we, finally, between sessions in the six month follow up instruction. To participants and staff minimized, the effects of expectancy Lisbon staff in community observers, rated party I've been moods attitudes and behaviour throat. The study, that's also hallmark, of a well designed study because they didn't rely on a single source of information for the outcome data right. They got self reports, that's fine, but they had relatively, directive observers. Also their data at the same time High dose Scylla, Simon produce large decreases, inclination and self related measures of depressed mooted anxiety, along with increases in quality of life, life, meaning and optimism and decrease. Sendeth, anxiety. That's interesting. Subtle, scientifically spar statement puts a very interesting one. It was the in there.

There's an intimation of a causal relationship here, increases in quality of life, life, meaning and decreases death, anxiety. Meanwhile, the intimation there is that one of the ways of decreasing your anxiety about death is to increase the meaning in your life the silver Simon Dosages, potentially eight that the good thing to know in a general. I. It happens to be a generalised truth right if you're terrified of mortality, terrified of vulnerability, there's always the possibility that the life path you're following isn't rich enough to, but you against the negative element of existing. It's a reasonable hypothesis and an option. Mystic one. I think, although a difficult one and six on follow up. These changes were sustained with about. Eighty percent of participants continuing to show clinically significant decreases in depressed mood and anxiety

Stephen ROS. Commenting about this, he was a co. Investigator said it is simply unprecedented in psychiatry that a single dose of medicine produces these kinds of dramatic and enduring results right, which me We have no idea why this happens. Participates in tribute to improvements in attitudes about life, slash self mood, relationships and spirituality To the high dose experience with more than eighty percent endorsing more Ridley or greater increased well being in life. Satisfaction. Community observers showed corresponding changes, mystical type, Silas suicide and experience on session day mediated the effective suicide and those on therapeutic outcomes. What that means is that well, when. Researchers were trying to look at a causal relationship between drug ingestion and the positive outcome. The causal relationship was drug ingestion, mystical experience, positive outcome, it wasn't dragon

John positive outcome: there had to be the experience produced by the farmers the collegiate in order for that pharmaceutical agent to have had its effect. Now we again, we don't know why. That is either me. Maybe some people needed a higher dose who knows because people very tremendously in their sensitivity to pharmaceutical substances, Now. Why am I telling you all this? Well you for a variety of reasons. One is the first is made no mistake about it: Human, things have the capacity for. Forms of consciousness that arise aqueon, unlike our normative forms of consciousness, and they ever. That those alternative forms of consciousness are early pathological, which is this- implicit explanation right, you perturbs, estimate produces pathology, that's negative that is the simplest explanation. The evidence for that is weak at best Note the bad trip issue which, which is non trivial, the

political evidence as it crews. In fact, to suggest that the sequence of mystical, positive, mystical experiences associated with psychedelic intake is Overwhelmingly positive, even in extreme situations, and you really can't find a more extreme situation than Certain cancer diagnosis with. Concomitant comment aimed depression and anxiety. Like I mean that's not as bad as it gets, but its gets kind in the ball park, and so the fact that even circumstances like that there was the Overwhelming probability that the experience would be positive, cuz, that's another thing you wouldn't expect. You know Even from some of the earlier earlier discussions about psychedelic use that were put forth by people, including Timothy Larry, Describing the importance of sat right so that the early experimenters noted that

if you had a psychedelic experience and you are in a bad state or in a bad place that that was one of the precursors to a bad trip that the negative emotion that you entered. The experience With could be magnified tremendously by the by the chemical substances, so that it was necessary to be somewhere safe to be around people that you trust to be in a familiar environment, to get all the variables that you couldn't control control But here is a situation where that isn't what happening at all, because people have this can diagnosed with cancer. Doses of unspecified outcome and they still, the vast majority of them, had a positive experience and the positive spirit experience had law lasting positive consequences, so so the case that The transcendent experience is not real, that's wrong. It's real No, we don't know what that means

challenges to some degree. Our concepts of what constitutes real. But it certainly well within the realm of normative human experience. So it's part of the you mean capacity, and you know that he's been other neurological experiments to this. There is a real or canadian research. If I remember correctly, who invented something he called the God helmet and it used electromagnetic stimulation brain stimulation to induce mystical experiences? I don't remember what part of the brain he was shouting offer activating without particular gadget, but. And did you know, there's this disasters, all sorts of other. Indications of this sort of thing that have cropped up in another. Domains of the neurological literature, for example, who had incredibly for people who are epileptic to have Legists experiences as part of the poor Roma to the actual seizure, that was the case with Don T, have for example, who had

incredibly intense religious experiences that terminate an epileptic seizure- and he said, that they were of sufficient quality that he would give up his whole life to have had them And the funny thing to is that in my meaning of dusty of at least, is that I think that epileptic seizures and the associated mystical experiences were part of what made him Transcendent Lee brilliant author, I dont think that he would have broken through into domains of insight that he possessed without those engineer, neurological experiences and it was certainly not the case that he's a epilepsy or the experiences that were associated with it produced you might describe as an impediment in his cognitive functions. Quite the contrary at least that's what looks to me here is another Here is another something worth considering. I dont know how important it is, but it might be really important depends on how import

This is something that Karl Young said so depends on how important young is no Freud, established The field of psychoanalysis in and with it Investigation, I would say, rigorous investigation into the contents of the unconscious, a modern colleges and psychologists like to what would you say, Integrate Freud but think there's a reason for that. I think that Freud's fundamental insights were so profound and so valuable that they got immediately absorbed into our culture and now they seem self evident and so that all that's left of fraud is his errors no, because we believe everything else. We believe all the profound things he discovered. We just take them for granted, and so we don't believe the things that he said that were quite on the money and that's all we credit with him with now. Was certainly the first person who brought up the idea of the unconscious in a rigorous manner. And he was the first and to do a rigorous examination of dreams of the deed

location of dreams is a great book. It's well worth reading and he was first person to note that people were in some sense, inhabited by some personalities that had a certain degree of autonomy and and and and and life brilliant observation. The cognitive psychologists haven't got up without at all. Yet you was, really affected by Freud. Young was profoundly affected by nature by Freud. Those were has two main intellectual influences I dont think one more than the other. He split with Freud on the religious issue. That was what caused it disruption in their relationship. I think it's an extremely interesting historical occurrence and made my Profound significance, Freud believed that the fundamental myth of the human was the eatable myth and the eatable myth. From a broader perspective is a failed hero story,

so the eatable myth the myth of a man who develops who grows up. But then, accidentally becomes close to his mother. Sleeps, with her, he doesn't know who she is and as a concept blinds himself and there's a theirs there's a warning about human development gone wrong in that story, and I think that for Put his finger on it extraordinarily well, because human beings have a very long period of dependency. And one of the things that you do see in clinical practice is that many people, problems. Are associated with their inability to break free of their family, consumed by the family drama right. They can't get beyond what happened to them in their family. There stuck the past its in that's equivalent. Symbolically speaking, you might say to the idea of being too close to your mother of of the boundaries being employed

we specified in that happens, far more often than any one would like to think said for it thought it was a universal, but you see. He had a different idea on his idea. Was that it wasn't? failed hero story. That was the universal human myth. There was this successful hero story about big difference it seriously a big difference, because The successful hero story is remembering sleeping beauty. You mean member this in the Disney movie, the queen traps, the prince in a dungeon and she's not going. Let him out till he's he's all right. So there's this comical scene where down in the dungeon, he's all in chains and she's laughing at him. Telling him. What is future is going to be like squid, evil and she's. She paints this wonderful picture of him being freed in like eighty years and hobbling out of the castle on is his whole. That's all you can barely stand up in him with gray hair, and you know, Genji, research

It's the story of his eventual triumphant departure from the castle as old and Rapid man and she has eight laugh about it It's nice. You know it's a real punchy story. It's really something wonderful for children! That story agenda he gets free of the of the shackles. The things that freedom are three little female fairies? The positive aspect of the feminine that freeze him from the dungeon? it's very interesting and very accurate the psychological perspective. It's the negative element of the feminine encapsulates in the dungeon and the positive element of the feminine that freedom and and then he hears the queen Evil, queen is not very happy when he escape You may remember that she stands on top of her oh tower and starts. Spin off cosmic sparks. I mean she's, quite the creature in in flame and then she turns into a dragon and she the princess to fight with her in order to

contact with sleeping beauty and in a way Her from her comatose existence as her unconscious existence and brilliant. It's brilliant representation of a successful hero, myth he he doesn't end up staying in an unholy relationship with his mother. Let's say he escaped and then conquers, the worst thing that can be imagined. And is a noble by that, and that, as a consequence, is able to wake the slumbering feminine from its coma. And that's a union story and that's the story that he juxtaposed against Freud, C4 I thought of religious phenomena as part of an old poke tied. That would be that would drown, rationale, rationality, I'm afraid we saw them Thirdly, anti religious.

And you thought no, it's not the case, you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. There's something profound and central, to the hero, myth and union clinical work is essentially the Wakening of the hero myth in the and how is the hand in the in the client or in the patient to caen actualize yourself, as that which can can Front chaos and triumph and that that's associated with an ennobling of the of consciousness and the establishment of pop proper, positive relationships between male and female, and you know I'm a sceptical purse I'm very very sceptical person and I've tried with every trick I have to put our liver, underneath young story and lifted up and and disrupted- and I I can't do it

I think he was right and that Freud was wrong. I mean I have great respect for Freud. I think he got the programme problem diagnosed very very nicely and clinical work, I see the phenomena that Freud described emerge continually constantly the best If you're interested in that does I commend to you should watch I may have mentioned it before. I think it's the best documentary ever made, certainly the best when I've ever seen. It's called crumb the butter underground cartoonist, Robert Crumb, who, who is a hippie movement, and although he hated hippies, he was but a hippie movement in the Sixtys in San Francisco and started the entire underground comic. What culture Manifested itself eventually and in graphic novels, significant figure from the perspective of popular and a very, very intelligent man, and also, I would say, a hero. Although a very aunt and depraved and warped one

someone very acutely aware of his own shadow and the door, commentary outlines his attempts to scape from his absolute the dreadful mother and the failure of his two brothers to do the same thing, one of whom ended as a street beggar in San Francisco and the other who drank furnish repulsion died six months after the documentary was produced its unbelievably shocking documentary, it's there. Only piece of film and I ever seen that captures from The impasse pathology, I've, never anything because you can't see it generally unless you're in a clinical situation. Unless you know the details of someone's lives, the personal intimate details, you cannot communicate it, but the I commend who made the film whose, words wig off, if I remember correctly, was friend of the crumbs. And so he got. Access in a way that no one else would have, and they are also very forthright in forthcoming about their city action in general, I highly recommend that it's it's a real punch

If you want to know how a rapist thinks like, if you actually want to know, because maybe don't want to know. In fact, you prefer Don't want to know right Because do you really want to know that? Because you stand. That means to put yourself in that position and to understand if you really want to know how a serial sexual predator thinks and why If you watch chrome and you pay attention, you'll know. That's only a tiny bit what the film has to offer its really quite remarkable anyways young split with Freud on the issue of the eatable story as the fundamental myth of humankind and on the issue of the. The validity of the religious viewpoint and you came down heavily on the side of the validity of the religious viewpoint, and he established. Then a book called symbols of transformation. Which was written in nineteen fourteen, and that's that,

it broke. It produced the brake permanent split with Freud in that book, I would say that books actually been written. Three times It was written symbols of transport times written symbols of transformation which young extensively revised when he was alive, and then it was rewritten it is in a sense by a student of you is called Eric, Norman, who is also something someone? I would really recommend Eric Norman, I think, assumes greatest student and he to Biloxi. He wrote one call the origins and history of consciousness, which is a description of the development of consciousness out of unconsciousness. Using the hero, mere phaser as an asset. As this is what would you say as a as interpretive skeleton, so be it. Newman. Viewed the hero Miss as the door tat story of the emergence of human consciousness out of the surrounding unconsciousness, in which it was embedded. The struggle four consciousness: the star

of consciousness upward towards the light like a Lotus flower struggles up through the mark. Can they water too, to lay itself on the surface of the water and bloom and reveal the Buddha, which is, of course, what Lotus Flower does from a symbolic perspective for four four Norman. The hero story, was the story of the developed, the successful development of consciousness and the origins of consciousness, the origins and three of consciousness. Is a great book interesting way Can we apparently a row red. The origins and history of consciousness she's one of the few mainstream intellectuals that I've ever countered who read that in commented on it and she believed that it would be sufficient antidote. Postmodern integration of literature. She thought that powerful work, and I believe that I think it's a remarkable book? wrote to forward to that book, and he said in the forward there.

The work that he wished. He would have written so sort of Young, he wrote, I don't remember how many volumes dozens of ferries, difficult volumes was like Norman, was able to. What does still those into a single volumes. Movement, and so I would also say, if you're interested in using the best booked, It is the origins and history of consciousness. It's the best. Intro into into the union world seems very. The call to very different. To understand requires a real shift of perspective We need to understand what he's talking about and Norman Road, another book called the great mother, which is but more specialised in some sense, but also extremely interesting, because it flesh is out there. The archetype. Of chaos and its presentation of feminine it's a break, Book as well and highly worth highly worth reading, both those books anyways,

You're, a very strange person and a visionary and so that's kept him outside of the act, we're almost entirely. I mean I was caught, currently warrant as an undergraduate and then a graduate student and then a professor against ever talking about young in any. Way whatsoever, when I went on the job market, when I was it Mcgill when I grow From the girl, I've done my scientific research on alcoholism and I had a fairly lengthy publication record. It was pure empirical research and then really neural. Biological research into pharmacology of alcoholism, and I, established a reasonably solid, does publications. But at the same time it was writing this book that became maps of meaning and so on. But my time in graduate student school between these two endeavours, one very specifically neurological and pharmacological and really biologic Based on the other, very abstract

religious, symbolic, psychoanalytic, complete opposite, but I could see that the two things over really nicely, and there is a number of scientists at the time there were also drawing the same conclude the same relationship between the biology and the Yok picks up who wrote a book. A fact neuroscience, which is a great classic is one of those people who who saw the relationship. In the neurobiology of emotion and motivation and the psychoanalytic insights, Never became a mainstream view, but I think it's too complex. I think that bridging the gap between the biology and and the symbolic is too much. People generally speaking, you know it was certainly virtually too much for Because I got quite ill when I was a graduate student, I think. For right reasons. I also like would go on party three nights a week and so that probably had something to do with it, but but

working on those two things simultaneously was also rather exhausting. Now you Was a tremendously insightful clinician and he was a strange person introverted visionary. Hi introversion, very, very, very, very, very high and openness like off the charts and also God only knows what is IQ was worse. I mean every time I radio it's like reading each it's terrifying, because you know he's so damn smart that he can think up answers to question that you're, not even if not you don't understand, the answer is that you never conceptualize the damn questions. It's really something to read. Someone like that right who says we're here is a mystery. You think. Well, I never thought of that is a mystery and here's the solution like ok, that's that's that's something you know and he could read Greek and he could read.

He read all the ancient. He read a very large variety of ancient languages and was very familiar with the entire corpus of of astrological thought and of our chemical thought enough. Was it literature and biblical stories, and I mean educated in a way But no one is educated now and so Very daunting person to encounter and terrifying absent, legally terrifying his book. I which is the second volume of a vote. The second volume of volume, nine, which is the architects of the collective unconscious that Damn book, is just absolutely terrifying, because young he's one of these visionaries who can see way underneath the social structures and look patterns that are developing across for you in your case, it for thousands of years and laid them out and so that's really that's really something to to encounter When is a terrifying book, anyways one

might be well because I really I mean, I think how the hell did. He know these things. How can you figure these things out? can understand how he could possibly know these things. Here's a partial answer: you was a visionary and so what tat means, as far as I can tell, we could do a little quick survey How many of you think you think in words put up here and see do you think in words, so it looks like what about pictures, how many of you think and pictures So that's interesting. How many of you think that's about half in half by the way, probably have fewer on the word side, how many of you think in pictures and words, ok and so all right, so a baby was roughly a third in each category. That is also something that I really haven't encountered any. Research on from the psychological perspective. It's like, while these, in pictures or do you think it words and is these?

actually a reliable distinction. I think I think in words, most of the time but I can think in pictures like this I'm trying to build something I can think of pictures very honest- instantaneously, but it isn't my natural mode of thinking I'm hyper verbal, and so my natural mode of thinking is to think everything through in words, but I know my wife isn't like that. She thinks and images and then has to translate them into words, and so anyways. You was very literate and he could really think in words, but he could really think an image is also talking I would have quite extensively like her the intensity of her visualization vat Lee exceeds mine. So, for example, if I close my eyes and then try to imagine the crowd in front of me, it's pretty low resolution and vague and not The color and vivid you know what it's it's it's what I'm seeing through a glass darkly? Let's say I can't bring images to mind with that with spectacular clarity, but my wife is very good at that and you seem to absolutely.

A genius at that kind of thinking. And he had a lot of visionaries in his family history as well. So I dont know to what degree there's a hereditary component of that and I dont know to what degree that's actually like a neurological specialization ice presume, it would be associated with the trade openness distinguishes itself differentiates itself into interesting ideas and interested in statics in my suspicion, or is The people who are more interested in aesthetics are the visionary types, the ones that thinking images, anyways young, could really think and images, and he could imagine beings and I had a client once who was a loose? a dreamer How many of you her loose dream? So you know you're dreaming. Well, while you're, ok, many that phenomena was really even even identified as a phenomenon until the end of the nineteenth century there was a book written about it, the Freud to get his hands on, but couldn't it was a very rare book, and then there was a recent

sure about thirty years ago, who started to study, lucid dreams, but anyways. I had a client who is a lucid dreamer, and one of the things she could do was ask her dream characters what information they were trying to convey an. Would tell her. So that was very interesting and one of the consequences of that was. I don't have the story completely right in my memory, but its close enough was afraid of a very large number of things and in her dream I think it was a joke. Standing by a wagon, told her that if she going to be Successful in university that she would have to This is a slaughterhouse. There was something was way beyond her capacity to tolerate, he was a vegetarian, she couldn't stand sight of raw meat even and so, and she was very pressed and depressed and anxious because the slaughterhouse nature of existence

her dream focused on out and the consequences of that, because the slaughterhouse was out of the question as a clinic. Intervention, I took her to an embalming right does I asked you. I asked her what what what might be prevalent to that, and so she suggested that Exposure therapy is a hallmark of clinical psychology right, One of the things you do with people the coalition is you find out what they're afraid of new, gradually involuntarily expose them to that and that cures them and that's associated with the hero myth right. It's exactly the same thing. It's like there's dragon stopping you cause, there's lots of dragons. Most of them are stopping you. You can ignore them. You don't have to just cause. You know. Slash away it, randomly you're, not supposed to be fighting, dragons did aren't in your way, but if they are in your way you cannot ignore them, and then you decompose them into sub dragons, and you have people you know, take them on

as they take them on their despair. With the dragon and again the power of the druggist, like a video game actually a video game is like that. That's why people like the video games? Well, that's right right that there's a reason that you observe power. When you overcome things when you play a video game, it's not like that principally to the video games structure? That's an architectural idea, anyways! he went on and bombing, which was a very interesting experience and and quite quite use for her because she knew what she could tolerate after that And it was a hell of a lot more than she thought she could tolerate, and so that's very useful to know back to you he's a visionary thinker now my client, I said she could lucid dream and she could ask her dream character. What they wanted in what they were trying to communicate to her side was put, Interesting

spontaneously had nothing to do with me. I'm interested in dreams, and many of my clients are dreamers, especially the creative ones, because I think it's a hallmark of creativity to have vivid dreams into bill to remember them. But that was a factually that was natural to her you Had this other climate at one time, one point she had a variety of fears and she had this dream that she told me and she was walking down the beach, on the side of the beach up adieu, small dune. There was this old man with a snake, big python. The crowd around him and she was walking by either. No candle in the snake in the crowd and she didn't want to have anything to do with them. He was sort of showing people the snake and she told me that And I thought well, are you you probably need to go, see that snake, and so I relaxed hers clause. I hypnotic technique and it's very straightforward

hypnosis is generally nothing but pronounced like station. Will you to be susceptible to hypnosis, to actually fall into hypnotic trance as a consequence of being relaxed are just rely, her. I had to breathe deeply and pay attention. If different parts of the body and just relax or muscles one by one, essentially so that she can concentrate? And then are we play with the dream a little bit Me technique said: well, so called the dream image to mind, which she could do quite well said. Okay, Let's, let's explore it like pretend, like pretend play you know, if your kid in your pretend playing you, don't exactly direct the game right, you you, you play the game, so it's partly your direction obviously cause you're the player, but the thing also happens spontaneously of its own accord. You can think about that as a dialogue between the conscious mind and the unconscious mind, in some sense, as a developmental dialogue, it's not a fun game. If you just directed it's only a fun game. This

inviting in something is welling up Consequently same thing that happens when you're you're engage in some kind of artistic and literary production, if it's all, Down you know of your forcing it propaganda it's empty. What do you want to sort of is put yourself in a receptive state of mind and imaginative state of mind and it sort of have you and have made you're itself self manifesting itself in your creative imagination, and that was the sort of state that we were still having foreign she. I asked her when she was in Russia. What what do you think about the snake handler- and she said well, he's probably is charlatan he's just their turn- to impress the crowd and issue. Often she was afraid to go up there, because she thought people pusher towards the snake in she'd, have to touch it, and so there was fear of the crowd issue going on there too, and I said just look: go up there but do it under these conditions? Is that in all if We'll get pushy where you gonna tell them, we breathe, without something said, look just tell them that

You know you wanna, look at the snake, your own pace and that you don't need any encouragement or help, and it would be good if you are Left loans that enabled her to defend yourself, so she was afraid that the crowd would push you to do something that you didn't want to do. That was part of that of the dream. So anyway, she events, climbed the dune in her imagination and went into the crowd when the crowd turned out to be quite welcoming and not hostile and not pushy, which isn't what you would expect right, because the youth, the crowd would have reacted in a court. With her fears, since it was her fantasy, but that that's the thing about fantasies: they have this autonomous quality, but that the crowd welcoming and not hostile, and it turned out that the snake handle wasn't a charlatan, just an old guy who had the snake and he was out there you showing it to be well, because he thought it was a cool thing and and and Maybe it was good for people to come and look at a snake, and so she close enough to the snake to touch it and so

So I'm telling you that, because I want you to understand a bit more about what young was trying to do, and so he wrote these books books, they haven't been published yet called the Black Box and the blue. Books are the recommendation of his experiments with his imagination. What he would do is daydream like, like a child daydream here. He regained that faculty, although I think with unit, was a factor that never really disappeared and He had figures of imagination that came to him that he could With- and he spoke with these figures of imagination and documented that over a very long period of time, and that was originally that was eventually. Distilled into called the Red book which was published about three or four years ago, and it was That young regarded as the. Central sore

from which all his inspiration emerged from a sort of the way it looks to me is that. We embody a lot of information in our action and our action has- developed as a consequence of imitating other people and not only the people or the people around us Of course, the people around us imitated the people who came before them and those people in MID hated. The people who came before them and so on so back that it's fun, As you can go, and so you embody these patterns of behaviour, that extremely informative, that you don't understand that our continent of collective imitation across the centuries and throw then those patterns can become manifest as figures of the imagination. And those figures of imagination are the distillation of patterns of behaviour, and so, as the distillation of patterns of behaviour, they have content and its you that content its

you could even think about it as content. That's evolved, although its culturally transmitted, this contempt, that's evolved, and so these figures of the imagination can reveal this picture of reality to you. And that's what happened with young, that's what he described in the red book, and that was what permeated his Kaji psychology It was based on the presupposition the fundamental architectural structures of religious belief were pathological nor deceitful. Not protective in some delusional sense against the fear of death, but quite the contrary, the very stories that enabled us to forward as corn Human beings In the face of chaos itself,. And its conceivable, I think perhaps probable. That nothing more important. Can actually happened, the twentieth century than that

because it was the first time post, enlightenment, that our approach more between the into and the underlying religious archetypal substructure occurred? You have In the capacious intellect of young and the same thing happened to some degree with Pierre J, the religious domain and the factual domain were brought back together and the fact of use enduring and increasing popularity and influence, I would say, is a direct sequence of that now. Some of his work with spun off into the new age. And the new age is a very optimistic and naive movement is predicated on the idea that you can do nothing say, but follow your bliss and that will take. You ever higher to enlightenment- and that's not the union idea at all the union idea. Is that what you

most need will be found where you least one look so there's this. Story, King Arthur there's a story of King Arthur the thereon round table right, King Arthur and his knights. There are equal stroll Superman. But they're all equals and they go off. Look for the Holy GRAIL from the Holy greater GRAIL is the container of the redemptive substance whatever that is, it might be the CUP Christ used at the last supper might be shallow that was used to capture is blood on the cross ring when he was pierced by a sword. The stories differ, but that the holy GRAIL in the Holy GRAIL is lost. That's the redemptive substance in the night, it's a king Go off to search for the Holy GRAIL, But they don't know where to look so we you look when you don't know where to look for something you need desperately. But I've lost What each of the Knights goes into the forest at the point that looks darkest to him.

And that's union psychoanalysis in a nutshell, slow That which you fear and avoid that which you hold in contempt that which disgusts you and that you avoid that's that Way to what you need to know. There's nothing new age about that? That's for sure. Now, young, when he started this endeavour, Mister with this. This is part of the note books from the black book. He said. He wrote my saw my soul Are you do you hear me? I speak, I call you are you there have returned I'm here again I've in the dust of all the lands for my feet. I've come to you, I'm with you After long years of long wandering, I have come to you again. For the union's the two here, the journey is a journey within and and I think that That's, probably the

bias of introvert to believe that the heroes journeys and only the journey. I think that it can. Outward we're journey to, because I don't think it matters where you confront the unknown, whether its within her without what matters is whether or not you can the unknown. That's what matters. But he found that what he had ignored was undiscovered part of himself. So that might be something that was equivalent Two Huxley's notion that there were two: There's tremendous potential breath in the realm of human, conscious experience and Huxley was inflows to some degree by you now you knew of Huxley's experiments, had commented on psychedelic use- and he said something like beware of wisdom- you did not earn. And doing was very good. It's at stay Things very profoundly, very simply, and that's a very intelligent piece of advice. Beware of

is, you did not, and he wrote a paper. If you're interested in this sort of thing here, the paper be called the relations between the ego and the unconscious. Which is an absolute masterwork, but completely incomprehensible. Unless you know what it, unless you know what it's about. And what it's about is danger of what he called ego inflation, and so one of the things that can happen as a consequence of a revelatory experience is that the the division between the individual ego and and the, and what would you call so hard to come up with a word that isn't Somehow, naive or or. Or cliched, too, raise the relationship, the boundary between the specific consciousness of the ego, and the more generalised consciousness then more generalised consciousness as such. A dangerous thing to do, because you can

start to equate yourself your specific self without more generalised, conscious as such, you thought about that. Is it something Back to a psychotic inflation and the paper Relations between the ego and the unconscious is a doctor That tells you how to avoid that. If you're. Playing in this kind of realm and one of these injunctions is to keep your fee On the ground, he thought that was what, Partly what happened to nature was that need you wasn't grounded enough in life. He wasn't grounded enough in day to day rituals and routines and the mundane. Now you debate whether not that's the case. Whether not that's reasonable argument, but that was still what you believed. Ok, so why am I telling you all this often

with this from December, one thousand nine hundred and thirteen onward young carried on in the same procedure deliberately evoking a fantasy in a waking state and then entering into it as a drama. These fantasies may be understood as a type of dramatized thinking in pictorial form in Richards. He recalled that his scientific question was to see what took place when you switch of consciousness. The example of dreams, indicated the existence of background activity, and he wanted to give this possibility of emerging just as one when taking mescaline these jobs. Or use contemporary contemporaneous clinical ledger to his most difficult experiment or what he later describes as a voyage of discovery, tat the other pool of the world you believe that we were dreaming all the time, but that during waking life. The pressure external images was such that the Unconscious fantasy imagery was

But the fantasy imagery was of insufficient magnitude to be conscious, but that we were always situated in a dream in relationship to the world. So. When we started talking about. The creation of the universe. At the beginning of the Genesis stories, I spent long time, setting stage for the stories, because. There's no point in having a conversation about the God who gives rise to being Unless you have some sense of what that conceivably mean to the modern minded the same way about neighbour MC stories. I couldn't. Get a handle on them until I could understand and articulate more clearly what it might mean. How more in person might understand direct experience of God in the first question would be it's impossible. Announcing. That seems to be.

A qualified, yes, first of all its universal human experience. That's a very strange thing. It's not something that people have made up as Freud might have it defence against death. It's not a tenable hypothesis its a realm of potential experience experience, doesn't necessarily have to have the judeo Christian content that we ve been discussing. The contrary. Their manner Stations of this these alter the forms of consciousness all over the world to take on their own peculiar forms, although their patents to some degree that, like the hero myth, for example, the myth of the fighting The dragon seems to be unbelievably widespread, and so it's as if it's random, but there's much point in having a discussion about what. Wednesday, Abraham unless you can conceptualize it in terms that are immense. Or to modern skeptical consciousness. So we establish the proposition that mystical spirits is not only possible. It's quite common. And its induce able, in a variety of ways and the

manner in which its reducible is reliable and there's no evidence as well that its pathological and, in fact there is a fair bit of evidence that the patterns of behaviour that are associated with the mystical experience. Core elements of proper human adaptation in the world, the Ebro, stories open up with a manifest God. I'm going to read you some things from Friedman who wrote the disappear of God he was turned, Look at the underlying structure of the stories, no Friedman noted that. The books in the old testament written by a lot of different people a very different times: and then they were sequence by other people for real that we don't exactly you stand, but there's still an underlying narrative, there's more bull underlying narrative unities. Despite the fact that rather arbitrary sequencing and that's a strange thing you know, I guess you could say. If you have collection of ancient books, and you were trying to put them together. You try to put them together in some way that made sense right in

it wouldn't make sense unless you stumbled across some kind of underline narrative that allowed you to order them. And so it's not entirely surprising that that There are already in a manner that is comprehensible, but free in comments on the underlying narrative structure. Part of it was. Well, we'll go through this. The books of the old testament were composed by a great many authors, according to both traditional religious views in modern critical scholarship, the phenomenon of the diminishing apparent presence of God across so many stories through so many books by so many authors spread over so many centuries is concerned stupid enough to be striking impressive and mysterious. At the heart of the divine face, is only half the story. There's another development, also extending across the course of the entire narrative of the hebrew Bible, which we must see before. We can appreciate the full force of this phenomenon and beef

we can pose a solution to the mystery of this of how this happened gradually from Genesis. Tears ran s that there is a transition from divine to human responsibility for life on earth. The story begins in Genesis. Was God in complete control of the creation, but by the end, humans have arrived at a stage at which, in all apparent ways, they have responsibility for the fate of the world. First to human beings Many take little responsibility themselves, but they do not be design or build anything when their embarrassed over their nudity. They do not make clothes, they cover themselves with leaves its God makes the first clothing for them Noah, by no means a fully developed personality. No, it is not an every man, either broadly Making he reflects a step beyond Adam and Eve and human character and responsibility. Abraham beyond that counts of divine commands that Abraham does carry out. The narrative also includes a variety of stories in which Abraham

so on his own initiative, he divides land with his nephew lot. He battles kings. He takes concubines, he argues with his wife Sarah on two occasions, details kings. That Syria is his sister out of fear that they will kill him to get his wife and he ranges and sons, marriage the place of the single story of nose. Drunkenness. There are the case of Abraham the stories of Man's life, the Abraham section thus develops a personality and character of a man of man to a new degree in biblical narrative were picturing in him a new degree of responsibility. It is not Justin. Abraham is kindly kinder gentler, more intrepid, more ethical or a better debater than his ancestor Noah. Rather, the Noah and Abraham stories are pieces of a development of an increasingly stronger stance of humans relative to the deity before stories over humans become a great deal stronger and bolder than Abraham. What that means. No see it, And it is certainly the case that

the individual exists in the modern world. Differentiated self aware self, conscious, individual and it sir the case that that wasn't the case at some point in the past and so much the case that there has been a development. I don't know you could call it a progression but a development of the autonomous individual over some span of historical time, and we don't how long that's been, but my patients are it hasn't been that long mean. I read once about a meal mythic ceremony that involve the particular placement of a bear skull in a cave and then I read that and they had found these placements in caves, that were at least twenty five thousand years old, and then I read they found caves in Japan among the EU, who were the indigenous inhabitants of japanese territory and rather archaic people. Who had the same ceremony with the bear and put the skull in the same orientation in place in caves and that

tradition, remained unbroken for about twenty five thousand years and you think you all- is it possible for an oral or ritual tradition to remain unbroken for spans of? tens of thousands of years- and the answer to that is not only is it possible, it's actually the norm because, like One chimpanzee is like the next chimpanzee right in in the progression in the biological progression. If you took. Chimpanzee troop now and you can twenty five thousand years and looked at a chimpanzee, true baby, the same thing: there's no historical progression, that's how you can tell chimps really don't have culture, because, if We could even a creed one, thousands of a percent of culture, transmissible culture per generation, it wouldn t, more than about a million years before they have a whole civilization and they d There are the same as they were, and so the continuity, the stability and unchanging nature of a species assent speaking as the rule that The variant is ass, so what

happened after the last ice age, Fifteen thousand years ago we went from tribal Uniform stable to whatever the hell we are now, it's transition from generic two specific it something like that and I can't help but think that that's reflected in this text and that it has something to do with it. Transition of consciousness from from, from possession by the generic divine too dominance by the specific individual. It's something like that is that a neurological transformation is that but this is a record of Bin, We don't know one of the things you said about God, because Europe's relationship with God, as an object of belief, is very complex, he and his technical writing. He always talks about the image of God. He never talks about God. He talks about the image of God that the image of God dwells within it's not the same thing is God dwelling within right. So we could.

Mean all of these people these that we have for transcended consciousness could be a byproduct of biological evolution. They can have no reflection, they can have no relationship whatsoever to an actual transcendent reality. There's no way of telling the transcendent reality seems to manifest itself as an element of experience, but that doesn't mean that has in reality outside of this objective. Even if even if it exists as it is clearly does? But. Friedman suggests that what's happening in the biblical narrative is, sequential emergence of the individual as a redemptive force and that the testament documents that implicitly- unconsciously, as a consequence of descriptive fantasy and at what's going on in the book, and that so The cosmos is under the control of generic eighty to begin with something like that. Controls shifts to.

Localised identifiable increasingly personal and detailed individuals. And you see that in no way, and then you see the neighbour ham, and then you see that Moses, and then there's this working out of what it would mean to be a fully developed individual and that's what these stories there there there there prototypes there their attempts to to to bring about the proper motive being right and so Abraham is a is a manifestation of that cause. He enters into a covenant with gaudy selected by Gordon enters into a partnership with God. It's not exactly obvious God provides them with forward motion and intuition and Lee Zeb towards a success, four motive being and its complex, successful motive being as Abraham is a very complex life. There's plenty of ups and downs right. It's it's not broken. Purity of being towards a divine and Abraham lies in cheats and deceives and does all sorts of things that that arise.

Person would do and and Moses, for example, kill someone, and so these people that the biblical people are very genuine individuals, but their given with all their false right with all their sins, with other deceit there still put forth and potential modes of proper models of potential proper being in the world and the entire Wordpress of the Bible seems to be nothing but an attempt to keep throwing up variants of the personality trying. Experiment to find out what personality works in the world, of course, from a Christian effective that culminates in the figure of Christ Does the redemptive word and that's associated, as we have already talked about with the force that brought Order out of chaos at the beginning of time and so well, that's my attempt to provide proper,

context for the understanding of Abraham stories, and so hopefully, with that context we can move forward able to swallow the camel. So to speak, of the initial presence of God in the stories, and so will returned to all of that next week. wait one. Second, ok till people have an opportunity leave. I would very much like to ask the people who are asking the questions. Take a few seconds before they asked the question and make sure that the MIKE is position properly, so that One can hear you because people keep writing and complaining that

Well, they're very happy with the questions and I would say the questions have been a very high calibre so far, but they're not very I'll that they can't hear them. So I know that you know you're, obviously so nervous and in a hurry when you want to ask a question, but take a second or two to set them probably make sure that everyone can hear you, and so have a way out of Foot Doctor Peterson pay. There we go tonight. Like to ask you about two different psychological disorders, the first being borderline personality disorder. So two lectures ago. Somebody asked you about it and you gave very sparse answer. I can't remember ok, what you said, but it seems like you is of is too much complexity, suggest answer it right there and then, and then somebody else also acts asked you about the same disorder in Your patria live stream recently when they, when they asked you that you kind of you kind of,

off for a moment and something something kind afflict on in your head and it seemed and you and you thought a couple seconds, and then you said, you know what I dont think that I can that right now, because just too is just a very complex and was wondering just like many young men have gravitate towards you lectures. Do you think that there's something about this particular disorder? That There's something about people with this particular disorder that my gravitate tier incites in your lectures. Ok, so I would say, probably no to the second one, but I com in more about borderline personality disorder. I think I have enough mental energy to do that tonight. So, technically speaking, It's often considered the female variant of anti social personality disorder. So it's It's it's classified or its classified in

in the domain of extra realising disorders. Acting out disorders- and I think what happens, we, understand borderline personality disorder very well in its character eyes by tremendous impulsivity radical confusion of identity. Then this pattern of idealisation of of people with whom the soon afflicted with the disorder. Is associating with radical idealisation of those people and then radical devaluation of them and then there's another theme that sort of weaves, along with it, which is the clarity of people with airline personality disorder to presume that they will be abandoned and then act in a manner that makes such abandonment virtually certain and so It's a very complicated this but that I think it's at the crux of it.

One of the things that's interesting about people with bore line personality disorder in my experience is that their often quite intelligent and You you see in the person with borderline personality disorder, something like that waste or the squandering of tremendous potential, they this incapable of things through the nature of their problems and analyzing and discussing it, but not capable whatsoever of implementing any solutions, and technically there's no relationship between I'd. I q and conscientiousness. It's very weird. Because if you read the neural psychological literature, read about the functions of the prefrontal, cortex they're, usually conceptualizing intellectual terms. And their associated with planning and strategizing and so forth. And.

That's what conscientiousness is planning and strategizing in implementation correlation between IQ and conscientiousness zero. What's the correlation between. King memory and conscientiousness zero in Syria, a very low correlation right. I mean really it's hard to find things in psychology that are correlated at zero things. To be correlated to some degree. They tend to be interrelated, the borderline seems to be able to use strategies and abstract not to be able to implement, and so this The intellect per SE seems to be functional, but it's not embodied in action. It's very so it can be friends, To be associated with someone who has borderline personality disorder because Tell you the problem, is and even tell you what the solution might be, but implementation, so maybe some

went wrong developmentally. We don't know exactly how these sorts of things come about. The other thing that seems to be characteristic of borderline people with borderline now, the disorder is that they, they remind me very much of people who are two years old. In some manner like but with borderline personality disorder can have temper tantrums. In fact, they often do, and they know Now and then you see a temper tantrum and there thrown by two year olds. Right most people of temper temperance by the time they are about three, their very rare at for which is a good thing, because if there is still there at for that is not good diagnostic predictor, that's makes a good diagnostic predictor, but it's not the kind that you want, and you know it's funny, the way that we respond to two year old, temper tantrums, because the two year old will throw themselves on the ground and eat their hands in their legs on the floor, scream and yell and turn red or even blue. I saw a child once who is capable of holding his breath during a temperature,

from till he turned blue, which was really an impressive feet. You should try that right is really hard have to work at it, and You see that an adult borderline still have temper tantrums and the funny thing is when a two year old does it it's like it's it's a little off putting when an adult does it. It's camp neatly bloody, terrified and it happens very frequently with border lines, and so I would also They do some degree they do get preferably socialized between that critical period of development between two and four and you see the same thing with adult males who grow up to be anti social, because a lot The proportion of adult meals who grow up to be anti social are grass of as children as two year old, so there's a small proportion of tourists who are quite aggressive, though kick and hidden, bite and steal. If you put them the two year old. It's about food percent of the of the males, smaller fraction of the females. But most of them are socialized by the time. Therefore, but there's this percentage who art and they too,

to stay anti social and they tend to turn into long term. Offenders and and develop the critical period for socialization development seems to be between two and four and it seems to be mediated by pretty play in rough and tumble play in those sorts of mechanisms, and if it isn't instantiated by the age of four, it doesn't happen, and it doesn't look like its addressing now. There are dialectic behaviour, therapies that have been developed for people with borderline personality disorder and their people. To be successful. But ok thanks, if I may so. This second psychological disorder I want to about is psychotherapy, so you ve mentioned that psychopaths tend to switch from dominance, hierarchy, dominance hierarchy because people get tired of the shenanigans. They have to be one fresh people, psychopaths, also tend to be very low in conscientiousness and use that when you see some these protesters, yours, peaches.

Some of the men in particular years you're clinical intuition, tell you that there is something seriously pathological about them and I was wondering if you would suspect that some of these men might be sacrificed. While some of them likely are, but I dont know if a higher proportion of the ones who show up at protests and sort of Crete me out her. I dont know if there's a higher proportion of people like that, it's a protest or not I mean ISIS Back in general that godless of the protest. The proportion People who have personality disorders among protesters is higher than the proportion of people who have personality disorders in the general population, because you just expense that you just expect that kind of acting out behaviour. I'm not believe me, I'm not saying that all protest is associated with personality disorder. I'm not saying that at all plenty of reasons for protest, but some of the reason for protests,

credible reasons in some of the more credible reasons- and I was just thinking that, like the social Justice Hierarchy, so to speak, would be one of the last that these can that's. That's, that's a different issue. You know there are. Through our analysis of the dangers of agreeableness so agreeableness is a personality, treat that underlies the radical, A deleterious ethos because agreeable people want everything to be shared equally and it's a good, I think it's a good ethos for a small the group for a family because famine he's kind of a communist system in some sense right. It's like you, the food to be divided up equally among the children, clearly any want all the children sort of regardless of their in here. Abilities to have the same opportunities and perhaps even the same outcomes. So I think agreeableness, which is associated, at least in part with maternal maternal. Instinct, let's say maternal patterns of behaviour. I think it's it's a good

first pass motivational approximation to a localized familial ethic. I think it a atrophy at larger scale. I dont scales it all. I actually think that's why we evolve conscientiousness. Is conscientiousness is the principle that allows larger scale organizations to exist. Agreeableness won't. Do it conscientiousness is a mystery right. We don't have a neurological model. We don't have conceptual more we don't have an animal model. We don't have a pharmacological mortal model and we really only have one way of assessing it, which is self. Another reports of personality proclivity, so anyways, the problem with agreeableness. This has been modeled again. In is that a popular of cooperative people can be dominated by a single shark.

So agreeable, this is insufficient as a principle, because it opens itself up to Call that manipulation and. Many men manipulation, let's, let's leave it at that to manipulation and and and and exploitation. That's the other thing exploitation. So.

Thank you. I got to bees and I had one brief comment and aggression. So my comment was about your idea of sub personalities is one I monsters nowadays. The idea of multiple bestiality are split personality disorder controversial as to whether or not it exists, but there's a recent recent research suggests that you may actually have multiple personalities that use different parts of the brain to their differential access to the hippocampus step. Their own memories begin. Indeed, they use the brain differently, but that seems to be an exaggeration of some personalities me, which is quite interesting digression I had was about so you talked about young and how you should confront that which you don't want to confront them. Also, your most afraid offer disgusted by that you have the most resistance do so, but we were dogma, psychedelic and inexpensive hell. So at least some of the people have doktor, they describe negative trip, says an experience of of constant fear. Prolonged fear,

some of the most dramatic and personalized fear that they ve ever experienced a shouldn't negative psychedelic chips, illicit the kind of confrontation that young thought you should engage could be couldn't could well be noted. Its conceivable that I read this strange book once that May the claim that what was in the arc of the covenant was a mixture that was made from Amity miscarry mushrooms. And that's not as far fetched as you might think, because and my colleague just an amateur knit. My college is named Gordon, where saw who established cry Thirdly, the notion that it was amity them scarier, potions, was the Soma of the rig vader. And so

it's a strange idea, but. It's not an idea of it's completely outside of the realm of possibility. And the army leaders must. It's the fly, Garrick Red Mushroom, with white dots and its Used in germanic rituals in Cross Asia. And its apparently not toxic in its dried form. Of that is not a recommendation. You know this is serious. Serious and dangerous. Speculation and material? one of the things that the priests, had to do. Before they communed, what was ever in the arc of the covenant, was purify themselves and so one possibility is that the bad sake Eric experience is a involuntary confrontation with what you describe as the shadow slight. So

Beware of spare amending with sub sciences that produce divine revelations, if you're in a serious state of disorder, and I do think that is what happens to people is that they encounter. Everything about them that's chaotic and out of place and something get trapped in that and they can't get beyond it and that's because there's so much of it and so but we don't know enough to know. So. Citizen Petersen, you son of a bitch, How are you not too bad? You requested that's collection,

I've, got a real question. Question you're gonna like this one. Ok, it's about inspiration, because you talk about inspiration quite a bit in this lecture series, and also I wanted to point out. You have eighty, I guess a forty five minute arm chair discussion. Would you have a video of a one paragraph of Nietzsche's beyond good and evil yes listed, and it seems like you're awe, struck the structure and the choices, and I guess the ideas contained in various layers of despair And you're inspired and that inspires you. Do I guess, do your work? Do you do I encountered, I guess, a similar phenomenon here with one sentence written by the great Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, and I mean this one sentence answers the question: why do people search for God and if you could read it out and then deconstructed once it's at the end of page one off

If you want to read it from the book or ages. That's the question that human existence not only poses, but Itself is the conclusive inherent in it. The bone it comes up against and that yet yearn for their unbounded. More or less in the sense of nature's assertion that all pleasure yearns for eternity experiences itself as a moment This simple tenacity of being limited and of yearning for the unbounded an open has prevented man from resting in himself made him sense that he is not self sufficient, but only was to himself by going outside himself and move toward the entirely other and infinitely greater. Well, it's a hell of a sentence like when I read that sense I decided I wanted to write like Joseph Cardinal rats. I had a very similar experience when I watch the jewel Rogan Podcast eight. Seventy seven I said I want to speak, like Jordan Petersen. That's what I wanted to do

I heard this coin. I had this discussion with a page. Your own, supported this week. A young guy for Australia and he said something very interesting that related to this and its avert it's something! That's very profound. I said I think through this idea in Christianity that we discuss briefly, that the judge and the Redeemer are the same figure. Now you know The book of revelation- you may know this. You may not Christ comes back as it ouch, and a sword coming out of it? It's a revelatory vision that that that book, it's a very strange. It's it's there. Last thing you d, expect conservative Christian, is to believe and believe me, it's such a visionary hallucination, the book of revelation, but Christ comes back with us. Sword coming out of his mouth, and he comes back as a judge and

divides the damned from the redeemed and most are damned in summer. Redeemed is very, very harsh. Young believed that the figure of Christ in the gospel was to agreeable to merciful two tilted towards mercy and that that called for a counter position, and that was the counter position of joy and very interesting hypothesis, but But then there is this. This melting of the two ideas that the judge in the Redeemer are the same thing. Ok now This young man told me that His life lacked purpose, and reaction and meaning, and that he was not realistic until started he read zone in the art of motorcycle maintenance, which I, like quite a bit: I've read it three times a different decades of my life and one of the things that's very interesting about that book. Is that it's an examination of the idea of quality

of the idea that there are qualitative distinctions between things and that we have an instinct to make qualitative distinctions, and so called state of distinction is simply the it is better than that, which is a judgment They know what Ratzinger is, hypothesized is that. The person in enough you know how you the idea, the modern ideas use supposed to accept yourself. I think that's an insane idea by the way, really, I think I can think of a more nihilistic idea, then that you're already okay, so I know you're not, and the reason you naughty could you could be way more than you are. So what do you want to be? You gonna be ok, as you are all you want to. Strive towards what's better. This young man, this Australian, he said that the reason that then, in the art of motorcycle maintenance had such an impact on him was big He wasn't happy with his current mode of being right. He didn't

consider the manner in which he conducted themselves sufficient and the fact that The author of sin- and it was pursing laid the notion that you could make qualitative distinctions and there were the really was a difference between good things and bad things are great things and evil things it gives Direction, it gives you you. The possibility of moving upward and an Ratzinger is pointing out, at least to some degree, that Human beings are insufficient in and of themselves and need the movement upward, and so they need to conceptualize something like the highest good and then to strive for that and the thing is, is that there isn't it difference between conceptualizing, the good and being judged because, if you're going to conceptualize the good and move towards what you have to do is separate from yourself all those things that aren't good and leave them behind, and that's where the Redeemer and the judge are the same thing

The things that really appalling, I think about our modern world, is that we read acting the notion of qualitative distinctions. You say what we don't want to hurt anybody's feelings by saying that one thing is better than the other it's like ok, fair enough. It's not fun to be kept stop with the damned that's for sure, but people are in fact insufficient. The internet in their present can do and which seems to be the case, we try finding someone who isn't. Then. Who deny the possibility of qualitative distinction, because you want to promote a radical egalitarianism, then you remove the possibility of redemption because there's no movement towards the good, and it seems to me that it's a catastrophe to sacrifice the good for It's a catastrophe to sacrifice the good for the equal, because for us beak would be mean, as far I can tell that we would all be equally unredeemed and miserable, and so

to be thankful, for you need to thank somebody for that. It's not based entirely on your own merit, and that points you towards something else and also- and I dont think that you can have a profoundly in the case when you experienced human life at its fullest at its most beautiful others, most meaningful. You have a deep, I guess standing that you have something to be thankful for. You need to thank somebody for that. It's not based entirely on your own merit at points you towards something else and also- and I dont think that you can have a profoundly positive experience. You know in the best sense, without doubt accompanying it. That's a fee of being blasted, something like that yeah, that's it you're back and wait hold it. I'm buddhist are you ok cause I'm going to ask this person, but I would like to say that those were markedly good questions so

That's beers and thank you for the wonderful lecture Given you working definition of truth then that's say within the Abraham EC religious tradition. Would you say that the more perhaps mystical sects and then the nominations which play place more emphasis on the transit The experience of God other on this experience, suppose do, the more fundamentalist orthodox literalist, which perhaps emphasised what I've noticed Moral policing of behaviors would you say that the former is True, then, the latter no and no and edit ok, sorry, contains a and b we could that former in some way serve as an antidote to extremists, liberalism, jihadism fundamentalism.

So, yes to the second part, but the first part its grids, great quest, We do this if we did some research on this a while back looking at the for religious proclivities of liberals and conservatives. And liberals like if your liberal, it means your Heine openness alone, conscientiousness You're conservative, then you're high conscientiousness and low and openness and The liberals are a spiritual and the conservatives are dogmatic, but it's best to think of those as partners right because the the Spiritual, mystical end is where the revelations emerge. And the renewal, but that's where the there's chaos and and discord as well because, what's new disrupts what stable and so what new has to be turned into. It has to be integrated into what stable, and so you need both those pools. Of course, the dogmatist get the upper hand, and everything turns

To a tyranny of stone, that's your Egypt in the old testament, but if the, if the, if mystics get the upper hand in every Floats off the earth into some in Article ether that is equally counter productive So there has to be a dialogue between those different pools, and I think you see that in the distribution of human temperament, you know the kind the interest types there. They tend to be orderly. The orderly types tend to tend towards right wing totalitarianism. That's there. Proclivity when they went when when they, when things get out of hand, especially if their low and openness that's a danger. But you see the same thing with the people who are to open and not conscientious at all their dreaming all the time, but they never do anything, there's never anything implemented and that that's bad. That's a bad thing. So, I dont think that you can say that, like the dogmatic structure is necessary because that perpetuates the system and the river amatory element is necessary because that renews it when renewal is necessary- and there has to

continuous dialogue between those elements, so that neither of them for pray to their own particular form of pathology. That's what the problems with the current political. What would you call it Taylor resolution that occurring across the west. Is that the right and the left and talking to each other anymore, that's a very bad thing, because the left will wonderingly pattern and fail without boundaries and the It will include itself in smaller and smaller spaces until it can't move without the left, One of the reasons that democracy works is because it makes people talk or allows them to talk You can have it either way, but it is in its spits because every virtue has its vice right and so And met a virtue is something like the amalgamation of singular virtues into something: that's a transcendent structures. It has more to do with the harmony of virtues rather than with any given virtue, even though it

Did free and freedom of speech is the clearest manifestation of that harmony of virtues. So and So all could be a lubricant for the beginning of this discussion. Do you think between liberals and conservatives. I dont know how to answer that. Different doesnt follow immediately from your fur from your initial presuppositions, so that our experience is a different issue. Will the yes these exposing conservatives to some form that experience could it be a prerequisite for more productive dialogue, See I mean ended in it in in the church in church ceremony, let's say classical church ceremony, there's some intermingling of both right. You mean you think about a church ceremony that takes place in a gothic cathedral. We started got that dogma in there and there

the relatively rigid rules structure, but, at the same time that's aligned with intense beauty in the arts. Actual forms in that, in the light that streaming in through the stained, glass windows and the music. Cathedrals of forest right. It's a stone forest with sunlight streaming in through the trees and since it is a balance between structure light, there absolutely unbelievable structures, and then these speak of the transcendent, but but inside that there's a structure, and so it seems that. In order for the religious impulse to be balanced property, there has to be a reasonable dialogue even in practice between the mystical are inspiring, transcend and end the dogmatic yeah either. Those can can go either of those goes astray without the other. You're too dogmatic do need to are likely. Yes, because that would show that there is something beyond your own presuppositions, so.

I should tell you something interesting about or as a physiological phenomena. You know how you listening to music. Can you get chills? Some will experience that more than others open people experience that more or music is a pretty reliable illicit of. Chills, that's pilot erection, that's your hair astounding on end! You see it add when it sees a dog pops up, that's all It's the same thing chill is your hair standing on end and that's that That's the sensation you get in the presence of a mess predator. It's something like that and so there are experiences. Mean. Obviously it's because cognitive lean emotionally complex in human beings, but its fundamental evolutionary underpinning- is. The instantaneous pilot erection that you see and pray animals when their confronted by a predator and of course, that would be

If you are a rabbit, you can bloody well believe that you see a wolf and it would inspire off for sure I mean if a wolf it was twenty feet. High came bounding in here, man you'd feel are so Now will convince you that there's something that you still need to know. Last last question perfect timing, hide outcomes Petersen, my name is Gary and I'm a clinical and counselling mass we're sitting right now, And so one of the key ideas that's been surfacing time time again in your lectures, is the idea that phenomenology structure, and flows mythological and The way that plays out is I'm supposing effectively display attention to what comes up kind of naturally, and you can locate the chaotic elements in your experience and product them. With whatever degree of necessity. You think.

So China situate this within the clinical caught context, In conceptualize Psychotherapy as a kind of guy Journey. Just as you touched on in this lecture, Where, where it's more of a meadow journey, in a sense, a mega her own journey, but if you want to think about it, but just for those of us who are interested in kind of grounding in implementing these ideas within psychotherapeutic. That is what should we watch out for in the pros this itself. What comes up? What should we be afraid of or a fearful over cautious about or which we tend towards? That's my question. Well, I think one of the. One of the people who I've read its had the biggest if pact. On me, as a clinician was Karl Rogers and the reason for that is that Karl Rogers put tremendous emphasis on listening. Its

most impossible to overestimate how useful it is to listen to your clients, like you needed a myth scheme in some sense- The meadow scheme I think, is laid out, in the sermon on them out it's something like recent yourself and your client. Towards the good. The client has two conceptualize. What that might be. You can serve as a guide, but it has to come from that person because one of the things that you want to find out from your client is ok What's wrong, they have to tell you and what would nor having something wrong. Look like what is if you could have what you wanted and that and that that would be good. What would that looked like who case establishes you star right. It's like Japan to establishing the relationship with the start at the beginning of Pinocchio. Here's what we're aiming at okay! So now he's got that schema. Here's what we're aiming at now you

I'd say you might think well now that what happens to the quantities they meet their dragons along the way, and the dragons would be well now you know what you want and there are things in your way. And some of those things. My many of those things are gonna be intensely practical, but their pay The goal slouch psychological so like so maybe someone It has a job and they would like to move forward in the job. But their terrified of speaking in public you know. Is that a psychological problem or a practical problem its, but It's also a real problem in may positions unless you can speak fluently publicly. You you're going to hit a ceiling, and you're not going to go anywhere and so for the person to move towards that goal. Then they have to front the obstacles that manifest themselves. Within that framework and part of your job as a inclination is to identify the obstacles and today. Screw emanate them from things. They don't have to worry about right. Part of it is, you know,

can't just run around and try to combat all the chaos in the world. Some of it is your chaos and a bunch of it. Isn't the chaos that yours is the chaos that emerges as you move towards a necessary goal. And so partly what you're doing by listening to your point is to help them cut their dragons down to size. You know because what happens, if you start to talk to somebody about public speaking and you really talk to them- is that you Decomposed the problem into a set of, twenty sub problems like well. Exactly how to give a speech like? What's your theory of of public speaking, Do you know how to look at people when you're talking? Do you know how to big loudly enough, so that people can hear you do philosophy of of public speaking. We all those things are necessary in order to do. It probably need to decompose that with the client and then to make those problems have to decompose them to the point where they can be met by a practical solution. And then have to guide the person through the implementation of the practical solution and

Mostly you do that by listening. So what you need to be as the person who helps the person that your work with Orient themselves towards a better future. That's the compact you and I are in this space at this time to make things better First of all, we have to decide what better would look like, Second, we need a strategy and third, we need to once we have that we're going to see the obstacles and some of those are going to be psychological and some of them are going to be practical and we're going to engage in joint problem solving of whatever sort is necessary in order to minimize the impact of those problems are to gain from the problems. Dream analysis can be extremely useful for that by the way, it's even more useful for help the person identify what the goal is, because that often difficult for people like well, I know that something's wrong, but I dont know what I want. Something people get so stuck there that they just can't get there get out of it.

So and then what would you watch out for phenomenon, not logically, the way it shows up. The weights experienced. Why would say as a clinician one of the things that you should watch out for his resentment, so dessert does rule of thumb. I don't think are useful. Don't do anything for your clients that they can do for themselves And don't do them any favours now? I think you can step beyond the confines of your role carefully. Now and then to show that. There's, there's there's a more human connection than the merely contractual That's very useful, but. There- are problems- are not your problem. You do not have any right to their problems and so

after maintained not detachment, because otherwise you can steal their destiny. You don't want to be the person that solve their problems because you steal their destiny. When you do that, you want to be someone with whom they can figure things out for themselves, and so There can be hubris and being a clinician, because you can be the problem sovereign that elevates you to a position You elevate yourself to the opposition. You fall flat on your face: you'll hurt your clients and things will kick back on you very, very hard because What the hell do you know right? Nothing Because that person is very complicated and they need to they need, to sort themselves out and you can be a facilitator for that. But that's all should be, and so have to watch that you have to watch over. Becoming over entails me. Entangled sea have to maintain your detachment and in the best sense have to not overstep you're, It's easy to become Eu Brisk Dick. A person is looking to you for the answers, it's like you might

You don't have the answers, although you might build a fine help. The person find their way that's what you do with everyone. You love to write, mean you don't by them with the answers, because Then they become little clones of you and I be bitter, resentful and angry little clones of you because you you serve their destiny and so. The same thing applies in familiar arrangements. Are friendships all of that so if you found this conversation meaningful, you might think about picking up dad's books, maps of meaning the architecture of belief or as newer best seller. Twelve rules for life, an antidote to chaos, both of you. Works. Does much deeper into the topics covered in the join me Petersen. Podcast, see, George, Peters, not com for audio and text links or pick up the books. It your favorite bookseller

remember to check out Jordan, be Petersen, dot com, slash personality for information on his new course, which is now fifty percent off hope you enjoyed this podcast. If you do

Please let a friend now and leave a reveal next week's episode is a continuation of serious and his title. The call to Abraham acting next week follow me on my Youtube Channel Jordan, be Petersen on Twitter actual, be Petersen on Facebook, Doktor Jordan be Petersen and against a grandma Jordan Dog be dont Petersen. Details on this show access to my blog information about really tour dates and other events and my list of recommended books can be found on my website. Jordan be Petersen, dork com, my online writing programmes designed to help people straightened out their passes, understand themselves in the present and develop a sophisticated vision and strategy for the future can be found itself offering dot com that self authoring dot com. From the west? Would one podcast network.