Welcome to the Jordan, be Petersen Podcast, I'm Mikhail Petersen. This is episode to season for an in person podcast. Yet again, this episode is between Gregg, her wits and Jordan Petersen. It's called build a better. Democrat and was recorded member twentieth. Twenty twenty. Before the most recent events on capital, Hell Greg which is an american novelist, scriptwriter and producer. He has my favorite thriller hands down, no question about it. If you are the born movies he raged novels kind of similar. To that there are. slowly riveting I'd, recommend the orphan acts series actually has the newest orphan acts on January, twenty sixth pre order Lincoln and description that I would highly recommend checking out dad also Greg's undergrad thesis adviser when he worked at Harvard that's how we know each other, but the point of the episode in the last few, years leading up to the presidential election. Gregg has been

working with an independent team of Hollywood, writers, producers and directors to design and promote a moderate political message for the Democrats worth a lesson, if you prefer to watch the video version will be up on Youtube tomorrow, Monday January, eighteen, twenty twenty one on dad's g to channel deception. Brought to you by two awesome companies, one head space, I love had space, it's does guided meditation When I was younger and stupid, I thought meditation was a complete waste of time, which is ridiculous. Given our long people have been practicing meditation, it can be hard entail, especially if you have ten thousand things buzzing around your head at one time had space simplifies it. You, also don't have to do it for very long to get the benefits there are scientifically backs benefits to meditation. I start with a ten minute segment. When I wake up high recommend this rather than instantly checking social media or your phone in starting your day stressed out. I've found a very helpful I've

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Listen, although he has very many other occupations which will talk about today. Ah splendid see a Gregg. It's been a while, since we talked courtesy, see the Terry, we could start my you just outlined some of the things that you do and then I think, will focus on the political stop more today, not yet from a political perspective. So well, I came from novels and monopolise are the orphan Ex series, and I have also worked in screens, eyes and tv in complex and some other stuff, and I started to get involved in politics. around twenty, sixteen in large part b, As before that, I kind of thought democracy would be fine without me, I didn't really feel any responsibilities as a citizen, I gotta had a lot of opinions, but didn't do a lot about ass. The end, one of things that I wanted to do when Doll tromp was elected. I was he was not a candidate

president to my liking or who is a match with my value. Sat in the first thing that I asked myself it's funny you give that lecture about the old testament that one of the answers that the old testament answers is always like gods. Angry we screwed up. And so I really took that approach all the way down. I thought, rather than starting to go on offense and and ends tackle people who voted or thought differently Mere had different ideologies. I would try and think about the failings of the Democratic Party, the status well all that parts of society I was part of and how badly we would have to have fallen short for him to be seen as a viable and proper ball turn. It is to the candidate that we are putting forth, and so I started working

water cannons, as mostly interests and candidates in rural districts. Talking a red voters right into for the mid term through work with thirty candidates, democratic and in deep red districts about making good faith arguments the way it's going to be right, Ivan opinion. I have a preference in political party to make good faith arguments to people the trying to try and win them over to a different point of view. We had a lot of success. We save the thirty candidates that we work with twenty. When one in terms of flapping their seats, will you got all have for viewers here? So when you talk about deep red states, deep blue states purple states. What do you mean republican versus Democrat Right was an interested and figure out how I wasn't I'm not interested in any mutations that take place in the model of like minded people, so I was interested in races in Oklahoma and New Mexico and Ohio and you know Virginia, and so we really

went there and then a long story short off that we started to word, a bunch of up ads are wrong with you for the Wall Street Journal and I do a lot for the bulwark trying to talk. cross the oil and I went out and talk to, I think about us three hundred and sixty degree art of Americans, whether was military of angelic goals, black lives matter. Hispanic, you don't taxes Mexicans different population, then you know Miami Cubans right different population from California, Mexicans, really talking to different groups and listening and figuring out my wound up doing about two hundred digital television commercials all this political workers, pro bono, whether with a small team of us here and you wanna- described the team yeah, I it's it was it me, it's Marshall, Ferchar, MAC, Sousa TV show runner trader, he created thirty something Billy Ray Oscar nominated screenwriters row, Captain Philips, you just to become your role, Sean.

And the greater the she all the tv producer and lead a colleague Reed s arm. She didn't know as a tonic credits from Shudder island to neither she work on. Avatar wrote a good amount of that with James Cameron and what was interesting was with in terms of the Hollywood system. Like you know, after trot was elected, I think Democrats were humbled and then there always kind of willing to meet with Hollywood. He people, but the wash outbreak was, was there weren't lot of people who are interested in having different kinds of conversations, and I decided if I can actually get in front of democratic leadership, and martial too was on that first trip with me. Then I would say exactly what I thought all the time to the best of my ability So let me let me walk through their. So years ago. Maybe that was in two thousand and sixteen about cab. You add some go away, giving let's say and argues that was at hand and long term. Election. We respond

That was how did the Democrats sink so low as to allow this to happen, sat a reasonable way of summarizing it What the hell is wrong with all those trump voters yeah like what let me start to explore in earnest my confirmation, biases and blind spots and talk to everybody who has a different perspective or point of view than me in earnest to try to figure Now, if you only you guys decided that you were going to produce more It is for the Democratic Party me on that that wasn't, but he knew there on your own accord in some sense or on your own, on your language. on your own dollar, but also independently yeah, that the line

Use was remember sitting in my living room. Talking about this, I said we ask for no money, no credit information, and you said to me that's exactly what orphan acts does my my protagonist of my throat or serious, whose is really funny confluence of my political life in the things that I was writing in the fiction world and what we rises. We can't go. We couldn't go through every thing. We did was on our own. We reserve money. We are one of the things we realise is the cost of admission, forgetting through messaging, that I thought was a more more swayed, making good faith, persuasion arguments, but also that was fair air. single economic fact that I put in either junior commercials that I produced? I ran through mine, whose like a Wall Street Republic and like I, always wanted opposition fact testing? We try to do nothing fairer. Did there wasn't fairer? suggesting we got us right all the time, but I tried to not do I didn't want adds that went after troms, kids in certain ways

we're off grounds and personal. I restart Munich is look here if your, if you're messaging and making propaganda, really what it is? That's that's Goebbels. During Goebbels Arena, that's dangerous stuff. You gotta too it really really seriously to try to engage and make our minutes without getting corrupted by war, That is the level? That's that's why it's dangerous is that you don't understand people don't understand when they start to mess with the truth that they're starting to mess with their own psyches, because you, if you start, playing in the domain of deceit, you'll get tangled up unnatural. Ass, make your head spending then. Will you and You yourself, I mean you know yourself. Even if you stick pretty close to the truth, ok so mean what happened, what what you guys get in the way he went about it struck me as quite I dont want believe boy. I guess, then. That's why I want to dwell on admit, so you decided that you had legal responsibility, you be nice yourself with a group of people what our group that was much.

I urge you to begin with shrank quickly to those that were actually Derek. it over, such a long period of time, to putting a lot of work into this. Supervising you got a bunch of nutrition as a consequence, it out Then you decided that New would make messages that were in alignment with, at least in principle with the Democratic party. But you didn't get permission from. the party brass so to speak, to do that. You did that independently. Well, there's a weird multi things about the attrition right. One of them was quickly discovered that a lot of people who are interested in the sort of loudest online outrage are equally devoted to the status quo. Is the opposition, and so one of things I came very quickly. Was it matters much more much more important than language, policing, right and permission structures of whose law to say was? Is an orientation on people's intentions and actual outcomes, and that

one way you can assess the groups of people, whether someone's gonna be useful. If you roll up their sleeves and get in actually get something done, whether that's winning a race in Oklahoma, right or trying to talk in good faith and respectfully to voters and Western Pennsylvania, it's gonna be messy you have to there's no king, you find described that. What do you mean messy like? What's messy about it? We ve talk a little bit about the cycle, the consequences of this, this kind of action. Even these kinds of discussions. by messy- I mean- I mean God, meaning I don't I'm the further along. I got one the more convinced I am that you cannot have a perfect conversation that, where everyone is is contained in all the language go seamlessly about ways about gender and about class in America, and so when there's too much

construction around language from the last stand and or from the rise. Basically, it's in it there there barking around the perimeter of the fertile solutions the markets around the perimeter, to make sure that nobody can have the kinds of conversations that you too have you have to talk about those things imperfectly you have so why would be? Why would the people be motivated to not allow that to happen to you think? Well, because it looks so further there there's different skews and everything is a generalization right. So I'm going to generalise the little man. I think that Here's the inner. Far right. We see a kind of corruption and also asian around sort of Donald Trump and what he represents, but he was seeing things they did hit people in a way that there are more things that they warn allowed to say. I have a whole budget. There is about the Republicans, I'm gonna, keep it focused on my looking in the proverbial mirror. I think

a lot of the language policing of the last is actually a way to maintain the status quo, Just one status quo. and whose advantage let's say that you're a rich Hollywood, Elise much like me, I heard you doubt or somebody who is who is in the kinds of groups that are that I move in that did. Did you move in but let's say further left of you like? I am or more, you know we're both liberal, but if you can pull, if you can talk any have all of the lingo and no ask me what the permission structures are, and you say, latin acts. Instead of what do you know when you do all this stuff intervene away? What you're doing here is your you're making sure that conversations that are the real conversations. The bring change that are messier, don't necessarily occur, but if you

have all the language down, you can sort of maintain your position and your money, and your relative stature is how you can I assume that if there was a solution that was being proposed, you'd be part of this. not part of the problem. You singled out with you signal that with the language, but we are also gear if you're you're casting like look I made it I'll give you an example. I made a video about the for me. I was I was exceedingly your powers from day one two messages of chaos from the Democratic Party right. I think conservatives partake literally have a reaction to the chaos. I think you have a legitimate reaction when people announce sort of you know police free zones in Seattle and in short, landed from day one. I was This whole notion a sanctuary. Cities doesn't make sense to me for a variety of reasons. Let's say we have the next president people decided voting rights or not be applied to in you doubt, Birmingham Alabama

right in there wouldn't be sanctuary city for that. There's all these complexities around it. I made some commercials about black leader ship calling for a lack of violence in the protests. Quichua Lance bottom, the mayor of Atlanta, gave a speech that I think was the speech with the most thundering moral authority that I've heard from a public figure when Atlanta was chairing it's off of arts extraordinary speech. I reference rhyme reference. Other people, the only blow back and I got from that- was from incredibly affluence. Sort of coastal elites saying how dare you you know selectively close, you know, african american people,

decrying violence data when they watch somebody get murdered in their protests in how they can. And it's the pity me why privilege and all the staff, and which interesting is I've long thought the trump works through projection like Trump will everything with tromp? They see that he makes a claim, for others there's a lot of protection. It goes on and I've increasingly seen from aspects of the last where I thought wow. How far do you have to be removed from the realm of fatigue? scenes of violence to not be worried like how many houses in mansions, then security guards engage communities. You have to have access to do be unconcern with violent action, whether that community is a community of color right, whether it's a white working class stimulated to simply say violent protests as something that we're not for like. How dare you advocate that when you're rich enough to never have to be there when the tourist violent protesters leave and the blood save a black community is left there with them

Did you their community like to be opposed to? That message is basically saying I wanna keep letting people protests as loud as they want it's in a way that whenever a fact me or my shoulder on rest, my my family's not arrest my houses and feel at risk, but I'll use all the right language so that I can be tat, did and sort of maintain. All of that and when you're trying wait in a really like win elections so that we don't you know. The african american media doesn't have to contend with another with more let LAO collared more voter. It's been thrown out like real, concrete issues. There is real concrete issues there, but if you can chop about something, that's a slogan like that. you. Dont have to get into the real solutions, are fixes but in time. Right where you can, you can take on the you can gone the assumed status of someone who's actually working to solve the problem. I think a lot of that a lot of politically correct language,

I guess I would be language. That's in alignment with sir, with with any given doctrine is an attempt to do take on the moral virtues of that doctrine, without necessarily having to bear any of the responsibility for actions in life. Without doctrine or to bear any Responsibility for the consequences like I was furious. I was furious when the protest dropped it with Georgia. Floored there were video after media of African Americans broadcasting. Some of them were like telling you know turning in people who were either. You know, Anarchy Stewart when breaks into an and examining property damage of saying your grabbing people handing them over the police, logical, aftermarkets, meaning we like this is our community. We live here and, of course, I'm not implying that nobody, the african immune african american community, cross the line in the course of those

Guess I'm not seeing now, but I'm seeing there is an awareness within that community that when the cameras run and whites go up, nobody's gonna, come rebuild backed community and when all the tourists Lee and everybody's had their march under protest, they have to contend with and there was a mess. discipline in that community, whether it was crucial, Lance bottoms. I think that the president of the animal c p and either Ordinar Washington had a great are bad killer like the wrapper was out there saying we cannot have. Violence were not turned down our own city. This isn't civil disobedience point of civil disobedience, of course, is that you bear the cost. You bear the moral responsibly many of your transgression african community understood that by and large and allow The loudest voices who were protesting against state who were for me was a frustration were from incredibly affluent, and here I use the word privilege which I don't like to use. People on the white to me

the and not for me. Was it's a similar kind of projection, as I once you trump doing vectors screaming about privilege all the time and you're like how? How do you know stand, it the destruction of property, destruction of small businesses, risks to families. Look somebody I'll give you stop. That's an interesting stat here. The average voters voted for Obama and then tromp things about politics on average, four minutes a week for minutes a week. The rights of people in the bubble think don't think about it. Ex forming a week, and so for me, it's a week is about what you can manage to worry about the emoluments clause and russian hacking when you're at the bottom of masses, higher give me, right. You got a stick kid you're out a health insurance and you don't have a job. You might have a special needs kid you might have appeared in a home. You have covert hitting You have time for any of this. You have time to have the kinds

conversations around the wants of of weather and whenever was shocked about the witch about the latin votes. I was just thinking how many people actually have friends and family who are hispanic? Who you talk to me? The joke was, they did. The big shock was the bite in wonder latin activists and trot wondered what you know about the laudable to your community. I mean I mean they dont. What do you think, counted for trumps attractiveness to the latino community. This kind of ties backing this time some backing. Do broader question, I want to ask you like interested in what you been doing in supporting it to the degree that I've been able to him to the degree that that's useful I spoke because I was very interested in Europe. willingness to look what had gone wrong with the Democratic Democratic Party and to try to fix that that seem to me to be a win.

no matter, that's a win for everyone, no matter where they are on the political spectrum, because the higher the function of both parties- is the better the political outcome as far as I'm concerned, right, you're on his little stupidity as possible all across the spectrum. So it seemed to me that we do Seeing some of the foolishness that characterize it, particularly the right collapsed a careless radical left within the Democratic Party and focusing on a more pragmatic, let's say, but also wiser, Resentment driven strategy would be a good thing over off, so that up the broader can of worms, which is what exactly had the Democrats done so badly that they lost Trump raw sewage. Dick to me, there's a couple things

we can talk about this panic vote. We should turn our less. Let's talk about out, specifically in the broader question in general, but also look. If you I mean I have friends and family dick there's there such an array of we talk about these panic. like it's a monolith right, it's not remotely back would Americans are like anything ever resembling socialism, I will never vote for you and if you compare trumped Fidel Castro Rita Fuckin Book, that's busied answer the cuban American soon my language its. It its and they d say I don't care what he calls us. I don't care what he does to us. The only thing that we have learnt that we learnt out of that is that the only power that you can trust his economic power, the rest of its an illusion and socialism wants to come in, and for that I want business opportunity right. I want less regulations, they won't go near us, it's very, very different and in the the community is its increase. You think have, particularly through the Cuban Americans human that as well.

Venezuelans here, while they have reason for it like, like my most kids, a lot of the most conservative friends and associates who I have whether it is people who are friends of mine weather Workers are Mexican Americans in a way they also, they don't want Mexico to come over here. They don't want open borders and many of them they left ass, wise that hard to understand they tend to be. You know, cats, catholic families. So if you think about politics for four minutes a week, and somebody comes in all of a sudden there talking about socialism DE funding, the police and then announcing all sorts of gender complexities. And I say this as somebody with a you know. I always I

profit to saying I would I have a Trans godson, lesbian sister. This is not like where my personal politics are for what people should be allowed to do or my personal all the small are very different than what I think the priority, and then the ranking of discussion is if you're gonna go talk to. Somebody takes up politics for four minutes a week and bring up elaborate, critical race theory. an end like and start to talk about the fact that boys on boys and girls, our girls and age, just announced this and have announcements at the age of eighteen. I don't make any Democrats grass when you think about politics for minutes a week and they talk about tromp and his transgressions, which I believe are more damaging and dangerous than those of the last. I don't think anybody has any idea. The kind of transgression that that represents two people who were either on the centre or on the raised another meeting, minutes a week thing really is interesting to because one of the things I was really strong by over them for years with all my

encounters with journalists, many of which were good. By the way I have lots of good encounters with journalists, but the worst encounters I ever had we're, always almost always with journalists as well. Is that the jury, think about the world politically, all the time back there, every single decision they make every. Obviously this is a generalization, but if you're in that world everything is political, but for the typical person there just not the case at all, and that's actually good one of the best political science, there is. I ever read once predicate on the idea put forward. The idea that enough Ellie functioning political system is best, A democratic system, the less people think about politics, the better The system is working towards the end. I didn't think politically at all, I'm not even interested in politics. You know I didn't I didn't. I mean it's

I couldn't agree without more I'm gonna things I think a lot about. As I have I have a friend when my closest friends are you ve met born again. Christian was raises son of a missionary all through other parts of the world and he lives and allay. He believed he worked debate. An industry, plugging a very rounded conservative friend of my guess- gave friends friends from whatever, but he wouldn't it. and told me during the election, twenty sixteen he said, I just went in and I thought forget ass, a voting for trot. I can't I can't bring myself to a four hour clan. I was really angry him at first. It was like, and then I realized I shouldn't say really angry with him, but I would I realized, did I didn't understand that, for the things that I sought for the clouds I saw massing on the horizon with Donald Trump and we're seeing some of that here with is that the legal threats, the election trying to undermine election security, his own large, largely appointed

look and judges shooting wandered down. There's a lot of things we need to get in all that is. Everyone can have an answer for everything that I say, but Realization I had with him was: oh, my god. She is a canary of a particular coal mines he's a guy rides motorcycle likes guns. He likes kind of different kinds of freedoms. He for he is a different relationship with freedoms versus security than I do. I'm carried out a different coal mine right order. That might be from me looking it. sort of authoritarian shadow, we knew that I saw coming in with tromp. That's what I alert you. I can't miss my friend who I know and love and who has been in my house and accepts my friends, my family everybody and has a broad range of friends and family. I can determine that he's either Foolish or John more wrong or a bad person anymore. I t determine that he's an ignorant canary down in ignorance online right as if he's not, friend it I'm back close german he's here and allay and that's a choice he made I

listen to what that was, even if they got instinct for him, and so then I was thinking about this a lot and one of things that I think has been a blessing of the tromp residents, Is there some conversations we're having now their dinner awful and horror like it sort of like you know that, since we talked about this all time, obviously with young with fright and get you go through hell before you get anywhere else we will be having any these conversations. If we were now in your former Hillary Clinton presidency, revving different conversations, there are more shrank now in a waterways about race about class, but the fact that he stuck with me the money and then one of things I'll say as I went in open, I and all the way down to assess my party, the political situation. I've only got a more disillusioned and angry with the Democratic party. okay, okay, so okay, so let's let's go return to that. Okay, I'm going to keep that in mind. Then, let's return to that. So you put together this.

More, this team was organized to produce messages that would support the Democrats. Democratic Party fundamentally but the but the overarching philosophy, was one of self criticism. Let's say it's: if the self includes the Democratic Party and. What other? What are the rules? What were the other rules for the messaging gee? I don't think people are going. this stand exactly what you did you made these out, but you went on. Did it with your own team and so who were the odds generated. How are they? had generated, who were they targeted to what was their consequence and or what were the rules that you used and agreed on when you making the out, and how did you agree on them? For that the questions that part of this

It was so I was entrepreneurial Georgia's all outside of the political, if I'd still be waiting for the first approval from the Dietrich see to do my first, you know two thousand dollar commercial. We couldn't wait for it that the Defeat comes in daily works within the party fusion. All just bureaucratic mass is division that did a law of what got done got down with a network of people: entrepreneurial lead, free market s, rights, thirty, five really applicants. Yeah yeah and it gave rise to it in really all that it was was- was our own ethical baron. You know I ran the thing it so I e we didn't testing to make sure we were that the ads work death, we weren't you shouting at each other on twitter and getting the most likes it. And what would you how you ll find effective? Lord anyway. There's a woman is the incredible who did you know we did testing focus groups, we saw how they move people I mean I can send you deck afterdeck after deck

now it s okay, so you were looking out as you are looking at pre posts exposure shift in political attitude as a consequence of the advertisements. Of always nice was that our gut instincts me- and by that I mean me, Marshall Billy led a shawl. Our got instinct was we're not gonna. Make trump bashing adds we made some when they were fair. That was a very important thing like I did. The one with four apology motors against tromp it was. I was just Reagan sitting on a hell speech and I just showed ring it. I just your prompt doing the opposite in ever regard for the this time in our memory, many. Guns are asking does history still have place for America, there are some who answer. No, then we must, our children not to dream, as we want street together tonight, I say that America is still United States a strong, still compassionate, still willing to stand by those who are persecuted or alone. For those who are victims.

of police states or government induce torture of terror that I speak for then. I believe we can embark on a new age of reform in this country. Then we'll make government again responsive to people. We can fight corrupt While we work to bring into our government women and men competence and high integrity tomorrow, you will be, a choice between different visions of the future Are you more confident that our economy will create productive work for our society, or are you less confident do you feel you can keep the job you have for gain a job if you dont him, are you pleased with the ability of young people to buy a home of the elderly. if their remaining years in happiness of our youngsters Take pride in the world we have built, for there are you, convinced that we have earned the respect of the world and our allies. Let us resolve tonight that Young American, will always find a city of hope in a country that is free.

Let us resolve, they will say of our day and of our generation than we did keep faith with our government than we did a worthy of ourselves that we did protect and pass on lovingly shining sitting on a hill. In other words, I was equally horse. my tracks and Republicans boss, but using parliament was for me. As I said, we can never lie to any standard. I don't wanna bet, the truth, I don't want a lie. I went out and got a hard core. Lifelong Walter Republic ended you all the fact checking and it was down the like. Even if we what kind of bullshit you about something So how do you mean he'd respond? Sorry, you asked him to tell you if he thought that you have been even playing with the truth?

rather than breaking it. Oh, I paid her misery torture and say you know gears the claims were making our they fair, Jack, multiple sources, and I wanted somebody- you expressly was not a democrat to do all of the evil. That seems to me- to me. You want to have someone like that around you. If you're making complex political decisions that you annually enemy, to tell you to play, your weaknesses, so you set up this crew, which was large to begin with and then got smaller, you were met with them. crowd leaders. There spoken. We spoke Marshall Address both after says, and we still we in an ongoing way. We do candidate training and we deal with redoubled leadership, so soul How is it that you managed to one of the things? said was that had you waited around for permission, you'd still be waiting and then another thing that needs to be pointed out to people

seventh without permission, you can go ahead anyways and make your political statement break. You just have to go. Do it, but. You still have positive relationships with the Democratic Party per se, No he's, not weird how the hell do you count for that? One always. I was because I was and I was respectful and what we did was you know it's like that judges, description of pornography. I dont know what it is, but I know when I see it, it's a Marshall. I would say what we know how to make a unifying uplifting message, its positive? That brings back sort of core democratic values and can speak across the island to people where the psychological profile, that's more conservative, with an understanding and respect for the fact that conservatives and liberals- cancer or what holds society together now marshal, and I have an opinion that is dead, the bad, the dangerous aspects of the last

embodied mostly in academia, culture, let's call it journalism and then have a small, tiny cabal, a very far left members of the Democratic Party and, to some extent its crept through the party. Some of the things that are the access and laughed it did. Obviously, you discussed at great length for us on the right is it is. It is codify It all the way through the sand and all the way up to Donald Trump and called the nuclear football so is trying to figure out. Why does this threat from the last that to me is it is much less, but just as dangerous and there's a lot of canaries in coal mines going hey man pay attention, that's bad news! The same way that we were about trough. Why is it being given kind of this equal, if not more, waiting to the two? What I thought was the clear and present danger of the excesses of tromp administration and what was happening there and so part of it was is. Is the respectful conversation with trop voter

We are mostly I'm sure I screwed up plenty, but you know an end to do a unified message to show them what I think people are realises. This is the message Jean messaging becomes content. If we could get the man's rise, we could solidify this story, and then that could change policy in the neck and changing autocratic plot need. So we talked a lot about that when, when you first embarked on this venture song, correct me. If I'm wrong about any as far as you can, about anything that I'm saying. The first thing is that if you produce a message, a story. That story has an ethic has an implicit ethic, and if this is accepted, then the implicit ethic is accepted and then the that's it ethic will be made explicit across time, A story is like it's like this, see ground for for explicit policy.

You took you gotta hand. You got a grip on the story now, one of the thing That concern me about the radical left was that because they had a story and it's a powerful, mythological story, benevolent nature. Tyrannical culture, the noble savage, that's another part of it because they had a coherent story. They had a disproportionate effect on policy and the moderate dammit. policy, so let me just internal policy, so do you like it? So I see. Did the green new deal push not rule which to me was not mental piece of legislation that was a Trojan horse now with everything zero votes in the Senate zeal. votes from the Democrats, every measure. If you look at each arm, each one is anti. Corruption was prescription drugs. There was to be the actual costs

season body through the Democrats bar is much more modern capitalist. Then then, then it is appalling. so what's being pirated loudly, is not in fact democratic policy. In my estimation of law or the spot in the Democratic Party is their failure to stand up and keep the elements of the party in their problems. Missus Presty, who they are and draw lines and what their post you and I think that now act and then being like. Well, we can't really were concerned to criticise you'd have defined the police were to conserve yeah. What I would say that

was look if you're scared of ale sneeze Twitter, following Americans, you're, not gonna, Jeanne you to be worthy of chairing the nuclear football, but just a very low check. Some analysis. If you can't just only really say that the funding the police, whether that means other things which it does is, it is slow in that makes no sense in terrifies. The vast majority of the merchants rightly so, and tone of immigrants, rightly so, like our or you know, people this man at origin. If you can't understand and state that clearly cause you're afraid of the blow back, you're not gonna, be trusted to lean and that's, and so it's a problem of degree, and I think that's one of them.

this topic of good fortune. You and I have had for a long time, not not negative friction, but just where were we ve been hammering away it thou? I keep saying you. The radical left is not the kind of threat in America relative to the threatened its posed by Donald Trump, as it represents a Canada, and we can disagree about that, because I think that the threats represented by them ethical laughed represent an equally just told me, and I can tell you a guy: don't we I understand it myself to some degree, is that I've been more, and this is surprise, to me I would say I mean more reactive to the threat posed by the radical leftists- and I think it's possible that it, because I'm in academia and so on, Don't you want to have a theory about why that is still ok, yeah, My serious is that the rise, the right comes in the front door,

there are like here we are. We want more money, more power, real, like government, were going to shrink as even the let's call it racism or anything that goes down from that tool to enrich favouritism right, like normal engraver, tens of theirs. Twenty people were like look. I grew up in Rural North Carolina, I'm fine with having the black president. I'm fine we're doing whatever this is my culture. I don't But being asked to celebrate another culture all the time in every way, or else behold racist, but does it make sense to me where's the left comes in and they say where we, like all of our stock, and we like our whole situation, like like the examples I was giving earlier, we're going to say to fund the police Momo Rich enough to not being a neighborhood, the that will have an effect of we we're we're above the pale that, if everything is move through, that lands were successful enough that we have money, we have resource. Anyways and we're gonna rap ourselves in an instinctive mony right, we're gonna rapporteur.

and think about how we want to maintain the status quo as much as you do, but Pretendedst because were morally superior in your morally inferior and that's that's it that's shame inducing that's like maternal scolding. Instinct elicits, I think rage, and so that's it that's a big difference in the two and I think that accounts for why some people are like hey look.

It's complicated, there's this element of moral superiority, unwanted things that united so much work in that event, Jellicoe Community and they ve been great, like making good faith arguments to reach out and talking about you know the values and attributes of Christ and trying to talk to voters, and there were some voters who we were very successful and talking to I want to say about twenty six percent of Angela Merkel vote. Hilary engrafted at all. She got thirteen and loss and binding was back up at twenty to twenty three. We thought that was a very important community. Talk to what people don't realize is if you look at tromp. If you look at anybody from a christian world view, you can dislike every you can just like him legally, you can just like the policies. You can just like a lot of these politicians, but the deeming of somebody's morally inferior right, whether its followers of Trop, whether it's you

now, if odors, no one can do that, but God you're not allowed to do that. You don't know where someone is on their journey. You don't know he's a sinner at didn't dear of his existence. If he's gonna turn around and there's a bigger, weird moral frame that gets put on ass, of course, there's aspects of that that will come in from the right right with homosexuality with more racist element, but that aspect, if, if I, if I'm arguing that the deal that, though right he's been more infected up the power structure by the worst authoritarian excesses of the rise. I think that the narrative judge marriages infected a wider swap left if that makes sense, while its thinking about anyways, I mean it's a real mystery to me because I suspected of five. because I'm canadian, and so that that puts me culturally to the left of it, typical American. That say, I suspect, if I read through a list of

policy decisions made by the dim grass and made by the Republicans over the last twenty years, and I was blind to the party whose pour did it. I would end up supporting more democratic legislation than republican legislation, but there is still something about the radicals and on the left. That disturb me in a way that look, it's it's soldiers, another way to look at it right. We ve all seen cape fear right in cape fear. Guy gets out of prison. He goes after its defence attorney criminals who are escaped. You go after council, go after the defence attorney in order for the prosecutor, and the reason for that is the percentage wise and, I believe, that's true. I've heard that I haven't source of bullets pretended sure for the sake of this parallel. I think a lot of what has happened is people figure, the prosecutors doing their job

but if your defence and authority whose most be looking out for you, doesn't there's a different kind of anger, I think that's what the democratic will always be trail. Yes, I think that now interest frontiers, here's the Gruber statistic for everything for me that when I arrived, I felt like the scales fell from my eyes. Over the last forty or fifty years, fifty trillion dollars. We don T, have moved from the bottom. Ninety percent of Americans to the top one percent. that's not through innovation, competition and free market capitalism, it's just not its corporate giveaways, its lobbyists writing bills, its There's whole structure the weird inevitability of the parade of distribution right idea, not angel law that the rich get rich in that organ poor, unbelievable diff, unbelievably difficult to keep that under control, and it is definitely

I that these societies and that's the thing- and it's been done largely- that fifty trillion effects of globalization certainly play a role. But it's not like all of a sudden everybody who see, oh god, TAT, which more brilliant. So this is the largest transfer of well, I believe in history, and it didn't go a socialist way. That's when everyone pulling their Herod about socialism, I just look at it and Gulf fifty trillion dollar. So, if your way, working and that happen under Obama. There have an underclass air will that's, but she doubts. The peculiar thing. Is that it's not self evident that Paul? see- can stop that, like one of them, eggs. I've been terrified about since really learning about the praetor distribution is its implant ability. You know We, as you pointed out this, this distribution happened even under systems of governor

sir or eighty ology of governance that I pathetically should have stopped it or at least slowed. It would be interesting to find out if Thou transfer took place more rapidly under Republicans than Democrats or not. Well. I think that the web, whatever it is, if you look at that one fact that is a failing of basically the entire ruling class in America, like the important you. I realise that I had a moment of realisation. Didn t tell you, it was really funny. So you know there was the top give after nine eleven. There is the tart Bella and the airlines we're in trouble and they were bailed out. I'm on my statistics might be slightly wrong, but call fifty three billion dollar bail out. Ok, when covert hit the need is enough, and we were you know us. Democrats were hopeful that that would go in

the workers and everyone else. They went in to start my back so that the stock prices rose right. Thirty five percent to stock market is foreign owned. It was a street corporate give away, that's a transfer of while they didn't go back to the workers that kiss me off we call it started. They asked for another bail out. It was like the exact same number: pallaby. Aren't you go and honour? I got all mad like I'm gonna call. Marshall wouldn't do commercial, and I stopped for a minute. I said you know what. I'm the assholes being served by the house and I don't mean- is in itself lodge awaiting privilege way like. Let me take a peak in my four one k: guess what stocks I'm probably holding rice, a ton of airline stock. So when there's a stocking back, which I can get angry about the thing is double realisation. Go luck that, after two thousand and three good example, because it shows that's a good one. you say that sheds uninteresting light on the implacable eighty of the prego distributions, like you're part of the poor.

Look, even though you object to an ideologically on your part of the problem because of where you set in the economic structure and right. But the thing is about this and you about regulation or policies, not working, which I want to turn to in a minute would, I realize, was that's not because I'm a good investor night cause, I'm smart three merges right, not because your cruel and malevolent either no its not, but this it's not my investing genius for the free market at work right. We don't have a transfer of wealth. Of that extent, go in the other direction in support of it is like ok, so I'm of beneficiaries. So what so What a solution for a lot of things is, you know you give money, you dream about privilege- and you saw flagellate as far as I'm concerned- that's that's all a self. It's now finds itself

just reaction is opposed to me saying. How do we start to address that problem, and the thing is: is it it has to be partially punctually policy surely regulation we keep we can over. Ninety is something that we fight all the time. You know what things you just said shed light. I think for me on irritation with the left hand of the ideological spectrum- is that it's just too much To see people who benefit say like who are in a position like you are or like I'm in, because we're beneficiaries of the breed or distribution in a major way. Now it's to me too much for me to also expect to be admired as a weapon gonna virtue in relationship to my attitude towards the poor. Let's say then I'm asking for too much, I'm asking to be a beneficiary of the system. The way it set up Now- and I'm asking to be at me

hired for my objection to the very system that is enriching me in this. one of those is too much to ask for and this the solution for their it like. When I have realization I was like ha. Let me get armbands. Let me look at policies. What's happened, economic summit like the one you and I did like, and I am not claiming I'm gonna like go out and six the whole problem, but if all I do is sit around and go, I feel so guilty money. Do a couple think pieces about it and talk about my privilege. It's needs is more self book is bullshit for those people who think about politics format its weakest. They only afford it being about politics reforming its away. So what do we do and what I do is try to advocate, for you know, policies the work, even if some of those are conservative policies right I mean I have a ton of people across the across the aisle across the whole spectrum rights. Regarding what do you think of this? Are there

during answers. There's gotta be some there's gotta, be some regulatory answers because its control la hopefully because the the the end of the product Is that far too few people have far too much of everything, and that's not even good, for them mean you're, not ready, for you have to live in a gated community. That's what's that gilded cage, you know it's not it's not an indication of wealth. Wealth is when you can walk around your city freely at night. That's wealth, that's exactly, and so that so much of what we are rife doubt in the message in when we try to talk to people across the Eu Country Club Republicans, let's say, there's a difference for me for people who are at the wrong end of people were at the wrong end of this system and ended. Pisses me off went when people get so angry about the fact that, like all these people are voting in ways that hurt their own interests right now, we say, like I vote in ways that hurt my dress. Unjust vote like how do you know,

interests are, their interests can be more, all their interests can be familiar, their interests can be religious. We it's not just their financial interests first and the other interests could be their children's future rather than their current region and their own current reality. I mean I learned long time ago that that small this man didn't vote for socialist policy Canada, even when they were pro small business, because they didn't want to be small businessman. They wanted to be is so they were voting their dream, not the reality, and it's not Obviously that's a mistake even know why you can criticise it. You could without its lax, but it doesnt mean its inadequacies

That doesn't mean it. It's a mistake. So, let's get into our commissioner in the coal mine discussion again, so I think like for me. It's it's glaringly apparent, and I know lots of people, especially a good number of people who are your listeners will in good faith. Disagree with me on that to me: it's glaringly apparent the difference in terms of what a tromp presidency, let's say in abiding presidency, in terms of the relative levels of corruption undermining of the democratic norms. I know there's a lot of counter arguments, I'm happy to have all of those, but for the sake of this discussion, what like for my perspective, it is big slice here, like a told him all the best A majority of Americans are sure far down their show far down below that when looking up they can't possibly sitting where some subtle. Well, you see trumpets emoluments

clause and he's doing fun raises in the south one of the White House in its unacceptable, but the kind of fun raising it enrichment did it like you know, the Clinton's did was different for the southern. They can differentiate gaps. For me, What is, and so then that gets to the question of was the vote for tromp. Like my friend, you will not be within said. Forget it. I don't care without a wiser being because that's a higher disagreeable irritation structural before we get somebody who's even more threatening from the right right? That's a good question. It certainly possible Fayza Tromp residency, there's no way now that we can move forward and I think without having much more robust in angry dialogue about that. a trillion dollar movement from the bottom line. Do the top one percent rise and there's some raise conversations beyond the? I believe that this dvd surface stop that we distract ourselves with all the time like cultural appropriations.

Issues and, as I have often dive, often thought and young interrupting you, partly because this is such a crucial point. The distribution of wealth problem. I drive. I've come to believe that, even though the asked focuses on that as the primary problem, they actually don't focus on it enough, because the attribution of the problem is wrong. I don't think there's any other whatsoever that the pride of distribution is secondary consequence of the capitalist system. So what that means to me is that the left wingers aren't actually taking the problem of relative poverty seriously enough because they ve got a handful of stocks answers that have been applied with absolutely no success whatsoever. And in their more radical in their more radical guises. They're not looking at the problem with enough seriousness, but the problem exists in it

Exists to because people are malevolent greedy, although that might add to it. It's me it's much more complex problem and one that much more difficult to solve, but some of the greenest, like the level of lobbying and in America, with lobbyists, literally submitting bills and forgetting to take the Lahti firms heading off the people we are, but if there is an aspect of that, but the other way that I look at that is to go. How badly did we fail? Is capitalists, then? That's me right: how badly did we fail that enough people went and picked up the shiny object, called socialism or democratic socialism, which is given socialism and think it? That's a good idea. That's all! That's a good question upsets the reverse of the question. The Democrats should be asking themselves so the damage should be asking themselves well, how did you become so attractive? What did we do wrong and the and the right?

The more conservative checks should be asking we haven't been. We haven't solve the problem of wealth distribution. Well enough, stop socialism from being attractive as an option, even though the historical record with regards to it, radical forms is dreadful and we ve also failed to embody the core values of free market capitalism. Innovation competition were where we have where we have not pull. The latter are behind us, where we have allowed and build a robust system, a smart capitalism, all the way down the easy, solid foundational base that we can stand until nine. It is so long. We also got him difficult. It's a goddamn, difficult though, like look, let me go an example, so I started company twenty years ago, and it is long for a long time, and then, when I

a better known it. That's all their marketing problem, but it's a psychological testing company and When we first designed it, we designed we We consciously designed a company that would require oh employs the wooden that would really, would have no overhead, and that would be a replica of all. So it was computerized And- and so in scale, without an increase in costs and, like I am sensitive to the problems first by depleted distribution, but when I say the company. I set it up in a way that absolutely contributed to it, because we don't. any no one in this company gets paid except the three people that on it, that's it and that's part of the in inexorably. I can't say that downward

stability. I just threat did the audio version of my book and I had to redo all the times. I say inexorable, because I said it wrong anyway. It's the indirect, inexorably wholly of the breed of distribution is very difficult to escape from be lovely. If we could have a discussion politically where that problem became central and everyone's attention, be focused on that the capitalist soon we can admire, at least in guises could sit down and say: look we have to figure out how to get more money to the bottom part of the population. Within this within a structure. they can also generate wealth because of course capitalism does that extremely well, so that problem has

we brought to the forefront. The thing is that the further I got into this Jordan? The more that I realized it did everything foundational Lee is moral. That's you said once to me in classic, like shortly after college said: there's only moral decisions status as that's a weirdo could sometimes there's pragmatic, sometimes or something and the more you look at the more its borne out. Then, in fact, like any short cut, you pay for any short cut, pushes look. We don't get all into union synchronicity, but you know that drill, and so one of the things that I think about a lot is dead. We can argue as if were sitting around in college, raise drinking and there's a libertarian inertia conserving, there's a liberal, and we are a democratic, conservative and liberal. Let's say, and we all know what we're gonna stay already. Nothing did

how's, your ideologically will ever worked or function, and the only answer to it like for me part of what I realize was. I realize I'm gonna be arrogant enough to try to go on and adventure that tries to tell stories not breed message. The Democrats that wine repackaging and putting Pegana lipstick that I can make an argument for mental Epstein. Gonna pay. What I say you said Pegana lipstick. Which gives our? Yes, you are paying to lipstick, Syrians and wrong an appeal to the transport of yours of this of this broadcast. That's horrible! That's that's horrible, but it's not about it can't be about deception right. It has to be about making actual arguments for why the corn liberal values that I believe are most imperfectly, but approximately embodied by the Democrats,

can have appealed to conservatives right and we ve talked all that big viable. You also till the Democrats in that direction like by producing now MAC message right gives them right. It gives them a centre around which to align a guy says, a necessary thing. You need that centre, but here's that compares the complexity that I realize is we didn't make any money at all. We said everything is bro. Bono and we didn't have any credit, and we wouldn't have done any of this, like the no permission it is like here we went often did ask, but there's a ton of money to be made in advertising and whom you have. I sent you that article writers and estimate that we created you know, and it could very well be offer overblown, but there's an estimated to add structures that we put in place created a billion dollars of advertise meat and we ended the swing stage. We ended angelic calls we aimed at this banner communities when, in the places that really matter to lot that's a lot of votes

even if it's off by fifty percent and the thing is, is part of how we got. There was people when they do and add by with a commercial they make money on the am I right. Mental part of it was we'd. Go off we'd make some commercial. We test. That would make sure that it was on ass. It would be saying something that slightly different, but the cost of having Our message conveyed in a way that might hope to be transformational was for us to give it to them and say here, say you did it and if there is any sales or anything to do with that, you go make a bunch of money off ass and just say it was you and so that the price of it, because if we said well, we ll I'd be cut in on the revenue streams. Then they'd have a bunch of reasons to choose their own freedom over our creed, afraid paying. So what you did

Taking yourself out of the sea structure, you name of your voice, that's right! I'm allowed for other people like you, don't get to have all these things right. That's where I get to have all the credit and make a ton of money and also be a door by the democratic instance, didn't establishments and then also be transformative enjoyed, not seeing that, like it's any great shakes morally, but that was the porter mean it was like this solution is in in doing the solution is in what I realise the airlines by saying that I was an inadvertent recipient that no way that's kind of red, that's kind of a rigged game when there's a buy out in there's a stock by out- and I just make more money despite there being a failure, is to do stuff and to try and use of properly. And so I think that allows

it is we have such a failure of moral leadership right now? Incorporations I mean I was thinking back to like. Would it be amazing if we looked up to you, no more leaders of industry and more forth it we're we're so remove from our paragons from our avatars of meaning? I guess what I mean to say like the fact that a politicians must be there to help you and do good for the community is almost laughable. Now the fact that a college or university represents the production of a renaissance man or woman ensure, for I mean the lie of that. I think, was laid bare by that college emission scandal. People are so furious about it because the answer that should be no kid could she do get in university. They wash out in the first month if they didn't deserve to be there in a way so

we were moving ourselves like the money making mechanism of business like great business is business. People should be building a whole pyramid in structure of success under them. That's how you win in twelve heart of part of again as its that's. Our time frame problem you know is that it. them the more fundamental, the more morally fundamental decision is the longer the timeframe over which it operates, and so you might expect. People who are benefiting from the capitalist system to set up their structures so that capitalism itself, would be supported across along span of time, and that would mean cutting in the people at the bottom of the hierarchy. But short term considerations arise to maybe doings

things very, very difficult right now. If you keep you, if you keep making it difficult another eight ten twelve years than ever, sees the president and the whole system change. what's a rival nice array escaped his systematically system fails enough people, then there's enough people who are willing to especially young men, who are willing to Take your chances in the revolution. You know at least its exciting, so here the hardest thing that I had to figure out, which was I had an ok time. I think part of this is my. I've always had a very diverse background of friends, because I write thrillers have a lot of friends in military community, a lot of kind of hard core conservatives. The hardest thing for me was to try to apply the same self awareness of my blind spots and then we'll see

happy, but sort of seek to really understand the further elements of the last. There was the hardest thing for me, instead of just saying your idiots in your squawking you're, doing all this stuff too, to really slow down and listen and understand that a lot of these younger, especially the younger kids younger who were coming out, were very attractive democratic socialism who were way more radical in a lot of their views. Dinner. Appealing to me when I stopped and looked at the world through their perspective. Eighty get over my inherent like yours, more angry, your own side, it sooner Azeri outwards, but man, if was. I have you know my wife's, a college professor, as you know, and she teaches a cease on which, which is a lot of kids. Kirsty North arranged a lot of kids from top backgrounds. I don't have time to be political. Those are the kid she has

into jobs yourself support their family there. Raising the younger sibling like these are working. Kids show me. Those kids come out of tat. They made the right choice, is not drugs, not you know I didn't want to represent. They went and did Destr holding their family together is like a hundred and thirty thousand dollars and debt coming out and the jobs that their earning you. Maybe they have a masters in, Psychology to the end of it and their making thirty three dollars, and how did you know okay so surmount so that's so that means that the price to buy into the system at a point where you have chance of thriving can't get too high for student load. Debt would woods contribute Thou, as would the price entry price of of real estate a trifle,

so that's a real danger so, but I think that people are look at other means and other systems, and why wouldn't you just criticise the system and for us to come along me to come along and said Well, that's ridiculous and democratic socialism and define the public. All these things are done about the system are so well. I think I think you could look the other thing that you can. You can credit the special young. People who are attracted to the farther left ideals. Is that There is genuine concern about the unfairness of the economic distribution is lighter and you know so there are a lot of poor people who are at zero, which is a hell of a place to be because you get to the point where you can get out because every year need what I dont know how to say exactly. You can't afford a bank account you can afford, address, like you, can't get the basic necessities that would

allow you to play in the system. You can afford twenty dollars a month fee to keep your bank account open if you're on A thousand dollars right right, exactly exactly that, and so that's the cost of being stuck at zero and young people. Look at that and I think well, that's a terrible wait waste of human resources which it is and its dreadfully unfair, which it is an error, the problem is that the solutions that are conjured up on the radical don't seem to work, but I think not well anyways. So I think it's reasonable to say you can be sympathetic to the motivations that drive the attraction those theories and it would be like only if they work, but so many so many of them when put into practice produced a result its intended. I don't see any evidence, I've I've looked and it's it's tough to pass through it, but it isn't the evidence that left wing governments had have been better at controlling the pretty district

asian problem than right wing governments is very, it's very sparse, and that actually used unbelievably disheartening, but I think more down, I think, we're getting to academic abstract when it in a way and I think that part of it is to say when they see that we go here's a bunch of facts and to meet the same thing with a mega voter. Let's say I'm becoming any going: here's a bunch of fact about Donald corruption. Rather than joining and seeing luck you know your twenty two you're not supposed to have a world economic view ended and an understanding of the whole breadth of history, especially from our academic systems that are failing you, as your under crippling DAS and your addicted to screens, because companies have teams of addiction specialists? You know throw shrapnel when you're nervous system and the biomed companies are all over you there being devoured from every angle and we're coming in with Powerpoint presentation about white stone. Rather than going got your right

there's a lot of problems here and you're on your. Maybe some of the language reason is an reasoning that you're the you're moving towards, aren't the ones that will get. You really want to be a boy. You write about a lot, let's start from near then, like you, can't change somebody's opinion. without seeking to understand them. First, innovations absolutely and you shouldn't dish assume that all the pause motivations are on your side, gay. I want ask you some some other Since you are so you eat, you news, two hundred commercials for going to show some of those interests, sternness in those saw video now. How are they distributed? How many people watched them? That's the first question: we did it a ton of online digital use me they they arranged some of them. We brand during NFL games and swing states on television,

some of them like the Reagan City on a hill one one of the benefits- was some the ones we did were really innovative in ways that are kind of fun that we could talk about in different ways in so we got you know like ours, Regency Guiana, Hell one Brain Williams, Ass James Carvel- about that on a show. So there is also a in sort of conversational aspect of love. Crossover into mainstream media in different ways is people would then right, I did a whole series of S. Amar commercials. Is it what is oh, it's the whispered member. Those videos where people would like whispered make sounds in the microphone were super. Finally, I must have been out of founded function mostly malfunctioning during that period, but some you know we realized it did the commercials A lot of a democratic agencies were putting where these like into trouble. You know Trop is but in the China, and it would have the dark shadow each problem in all the stop, and so a lot at noon. They got tons of people.

matching the like Barton, ensuring it, but what we found in some of the testing there's a brilliant one when we work whether the testing is moved undecided, voters, ten points towards tromp and the reason for the house, if you're nervous system is put in a firefly by the ominous score and the facts, Then you move more towards your more inclined receptive to deserve it. Unless you that's right, jingoism xenophobia's, I'm an leadership ass. He is so. I did this commercial series where we hired a wonderful actress too, to whisper it. It's a sort of seductive whispering of the mind, because I thought we need to talk to voters nervous systems. That's another part of storytelling right, you're, not talking just to their prefrontal cortex. You want to talk to the decision making mechanisms we need to lower the garbage.

There's so much screaming about politics, and so that is what we did said, there's so much screaming. You know I wanted. I want to tell you that this is the only way we can get through the noise and it's a sort of whispered. Salt messaging everything chop his action, Slash the past. Our thoughts be counted. Ass, fresh strikes out early

That is responsible for the content of this advertising pass tax. So that was a factor in that got written up in a bunch of places, secondarily how many people are typically viewing. These adds most of the ones that we did with big watches were in the millions in how would that compared to it, while I could say a typical political out, but this is a typical because me in sense, because the technological infrastructure for doing this is so new. I dont know what you'd compared to because it I mean an ad used to be in evidence and saying right. You throw up on a tv show, and I mean it could run sequential tv shows, but the would run, and then people wouldn't have access to it. Now course they had access to everything all the time. So I don't want it. For neuroscience omitted would be Instagram, it will be phased out on Twitter than ensured. Widely then saw whom we cut down, and we re

on television stations, but we got em. I think I can confidently say we got over a hundred million views of starch or, if not more key. Ok, what kind of one hears a nasty question I suppose, was I wouldn't? What good did you do and what harm did you do? but what harm might have you done? Let's start with good. What good do you think you did within them crowded party, let's say, but we have advocated an elevated, the purest place for me in the Democratic Party or the first time house candidates. That's my love for me to work with, because it so hard as people move up in the structure and make all the compromises that they have to make. It gets

more and more sticky and the fifth Domes and Bailey works in, and so the house candidates are wonderful, we supported down. I mean I think we we had a big. I look, I would say it so hard to say, and it so Arden wanna take credit. I'm here I wouldn't. I wouldn't want to remove our efforts from the mid term or from the presidential I wouldn't comfortable removing them, and thinking of the outcome is the same now, whether that's a slice that we laid on top of you know tons of people who did other work and other slices down community organizers, the politicians you know, and yes, the democratic institutions with fine raising the Dietrich, see there's there is some credit that is there too, but we put and targeted all of our messaging. Our theory of the case was right. We put it straight into the swing states. We put it straight into persuasion, messaging for modern voters. We went after a lotta hispanic

commercials, like our theory of the case was right. We, whenever of Angela goals, we didn't, do you remember? What do you mean by theory of the case, for we didn't do anything that was well politically, rising prices was with ambitious, it was unifying. We had to vote. Indeed our adds, we did several sort of black this matter here. When we had the Lincoln Project, I got one to them, but it was they were very clean on for amateur, is of what we were representing as a unified, positive vision of America and our our criticism. I think some of the commercials with tromp here there we did get. Probably I failed in getting snotty in ways that might not have been as you're a persuasive jake, so you didn't get snarking in a way that was social wasn't was not as persuade

if you're there are some of those two hundred adds. If I look back on a goat yeah, but I had an instinct and I'd send of two testing and I get the answer back, I was like. I think I can try this way in of this kind of attack. Roused came, we got back, there was like nope it's turning people off again and I was wrong. Joe is wrong plenty. I mean I rushed into being wrong everywhere again and again and again we didn't understand the permission structures. We can understand that, yes- and it is certain points we urge the on it- was funny- I joke with Billy he'd, send an email out to like a bunch of senators and heads of different committees, and I get like a worried call from one of our political. We hug, you, cats, you can't see all these people there's all this internal. You know stop going on into the first reaction is kind of sugar, greener embarrassment of like oh, we stumbled into you know this not knowing anything, but there we're wait a minute. That's idiotic! We're trying to win a race.

everything that you're saying you believe the Trump is that damaging and threatening we'll have time for any of this internet seen bullshit so knock it off we're gonna see all you would have time to break that up and every kind of work. Ok, like we were so clueless in some ways that, at all benefited ass, because we were breaking a lot of establish norms and little ways they did if people came up with it with an issue about whether it was some subtlety of language policing or Turkey, all staff for bureaucracy. We just said we're not doing any that reared a win. If you don't want to be involved, will take you right but we're not gonna, navigating you those things in six weeks since no one it given us permission, enormous pain. Us no one can fire us and sewage works. It was really weird. Well, I did it is really weird that it was even possible, but it's less weird when youth. The weird thing is that you did this without any payment that you just decided to do.

and the second weird thing is that you When went, did it and as a project it work, even though the outcome of it be very difficult to measure your heart Did you ask about the horror? I also I wanted to go more into the good. First no talked about the the newly elected people. You didn't tie that exactly to the good that you ve done but obviously is a link there. So I'm I'm just gonna. Ask you to make an explicit, as there are the best home you know we have amazing candidates gave you looked up, less a slot gain. If you looked up Dean Philips, if you looked up here, we see them. If you looked at Lucy Macbeth on some people, we lost this round because of the bad messaging, really bad party messaging, an inability to draw a line against socialism indefinable. he's, but we work with candidates like Michel. They let you lie with the mayor of Turkey, God Kansas K, so you're you're pleased about the affair, Agnes of your strategy on

raising the overall capacity for form and of a new generation or part of a new generation of political decision makers. Who I admire any? Who anybody? Would anybody reasonable if you sat down with it with a less asleep? can it was twenty years the CIA, you might not free without all the Baltic States impossible to not completely admire her as states. Woman she's giving so you got high, you think you are on the side of the high quality people, yeah, ok weather. cool alright You know it's hard for me to see, and I got us more oriented on getting things done. An accomplished then talking about them theoretically terms of like here's, how we get shit done now, it's enough with the abstract. People are hurting people a bad place, and

think also to some extent I helped to untangle in in in small. Look it so hard. I think I've done a lot in. I help build a coalition. I played a role in sticking together, you know the Writ Wilson's in David forums and me bill, crystals of course, they're doing it on their own and a lot of people had reached. But I was descent of a particularly diverse and interesting, you know Chris, however, sin who you introduce me to write that former chaplain of the Senate of Angela Merkel leader there there's people who I pulled and pulled into ventures in a hole four ways: you're one of my favorite candidates. You lost this time due to bad either again messaging was unfair, wonderful woman, so she tore a small using the most rural districts of any Democrat Democrats. Don't ten rural New Mexico, so I called Chris Helmer sending you introduce Mitchell, and I said she's she's, a christian woman should woman of Fate she Viper

since using the most rural districts and just concerns about world medicine, rural health care and that's not predominantly democratic. Who urge your Republicans. Are you? What do you can get in touch with the help solve that problem for constituents? It's a wind for her that just helps people in rural districts. It politically agnostic, and ideally we would be politically agnostic. I would love to support Looking candidates who I felt like, were you no good feeling? Well, that's asked the question you know, because you can look at this as a zero sum game and you could say well it's bad As for the conservatives, if better quality liberals emerge on the political landscape because their probability victory is higher. But then you could take the opposite view point you could say no

everyone wins if the quality of candidates on both sides of the spectrum is our are elevated, is equality is elevated and that's the only thing that keeps us the idea. The extremism like we're on a sea saw right into the game. Theory is that people are in the middle and their dealing with each other. Like you know, chip O Neill and Ronald Reagan, everyone can kind of the middle, and you think the sea saw, but one wondered, starts to move and its chicken or act other ass. They move out the whole balanced and when you have the mainstream media invited since essentially the Gore Vidal, William Butler Junior Debates and there's a wonderful documentary. The best man saw again and you have social media driving that way, and you have you. No capitalism by appropriating people for global mean heads for the most extreme ism online, moving people that way everybody's moved out in support of it for me as if we can bring the Democrats back towards them.

You always we can get Republicans there and the others the just while back. Ok, you got a step that well that's the debts. The bad here right is that an Jordan. What would just one thing? I wanted to talk to you about this for four four minute which, as we know, we talk about moderates talk about moderates and more streams and the distinction I make it's like in psychology between process and content in a way like my politics are actually probably significantly more progressive than where I live too negotiate and understand that, within a system of governance, no one gets everything they want and we need imperfect, incremental progress where everybody takes less of what they want, and so I think that there is an aspect where we can talk about moderate in in process like I don't care how extreme within reasonable rates,

Well, now you see holding her views. I dont view that as some moral issue, if she was more willing to engage on more fair terms about them, but I feel like we as a party could sustain a democratic socialist wing in once in a while from a deep blue district to hold us due account for ways that maybe we would get to tangled up in corruption. It's all about the ability to engage properly and then the old politics can be wherever they are. That sort of that sum that is essentially the subordination of eighty ology to the constitution in some sense right is that, regardless of your stated goal, and regardless of uranium, logical position. You swear to abide by the process, rules right, yeah, well on monitoring you don't get sorted out, makes you a moderate.

Then that's reasonable, a reasonable, for that makes you a kind of moderate and it's a reasonable. Ok. I wanted to ask you two were so. I know that the fact that you this and the fact that it was successful, at least as a project, let's say and proper because of its consequences, but certainly as a project, because its going on for four years and manifest it itself on a pretty large scale. What were the car places for you personally psychologically. What did they do to you

out of the change you well that's it was one of the best and worst things I ever went through my life. I feel like it was like going to college for four years. I don't have a belief that week, so I was in large part engaged and the info wars, especially an acutely the last seven months. Good I was on viewing sort of people were online or largely radicalized and weapon eyes, and I don't mean that flippant me. I mean that some of the play books that are issued by the extremes politically are the ices playbook along the opinions that we believed that we hold our out of troll farms in seed Peters.

So we're here is a country with that fifty trillion dollars is moving to the top one percent. We actually believed that were personally damaged if a black man, the rules on the sidelines of an NFL game to peaceful protest or a white droll gets dread. Locks did Yale, like the things that we come to believe. Are these giant stakes to me? Are all distraction games for the movement of that fifty trillion dollars to the one percent, because we're not talking about the prison industrial complex right, we're not talking about the real stuff and ass. We were fighting about this all that keeps happening, so there is a a a view of the level of corruption intricacy difficulty they is, did dizzying b. in their an online, I'm not sure they did. Somebody can live any substantial portion of their life online in social media and not be insane. Go well unduly like it's it's it's like

Most of what I have encountered online or a huge report portion of it has been intensely positive. but even to positive, I would say, is like so many people comment in the car session section say on you to that being exposed to my work and its based on the ideas of other people like it's not my work, you know exactly because no one's work is their work exactly but being exposed to these ideas which I've been communicated, let's say, has positively, changed their lives but to hear them from thousands of people is just it overwhelming I keep masterpiece, positive side of it. It's too money much you get amplified too much and the negative side is just deadly like on my Youtube channel. The positive or negative comment ratio is about a hundred to one you know and that's about as good as you could ever hoped for, but the positive the overwhelming and the name The ones are deadly

and you know you see this, because people people will get attacked by twenty four. go on twitter and you're going to converge. Oceans to apologise, and if you put it, often the centre of this monstrosity? That's multiple! my thousands or tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands in its and it's not real. It's not real. That's what so crazy! It's not your family and your community. You don't know what cross section that is, you don't know like if your high school and there's one table of mean kid screaming in a court after gossiping. Well, it's real, but it's impossible to parameter rise in a way When did your family or or your immediate community. You know these people in, and you can put some walls around it and give it the pro

We know, that's what I mean. That's what I mean you can't give it the proper way. If you don't know what large, because we're not adapted to this environment. It's like on so here we have these, our kids. You know what I am increasingly worried about, who were were the it's like it's like trying to exist and go through puberty and go and enter the academic world and the world of culture and ideas well being constantly blared out with the stream of the most salacious upsetting end. Activating gossip. That's been algorithmic selected to target you and that's how politics is that's what we're dealing with nigh was in there and the thing is for me. As I talk to I talk to anybody, I mean you know that I'm here I'll tell you. for a variety of reasons and one there's all the obvious reasons for free speech and talk to people. We agree with you, but also insight.

What are my blind spots are always want to know that for its hard to go in, I had at one time added to our conversation with airlines. Do you know about where he was on everything, but I was right in the middle of it that takes a while you Erics Erics, incredibly brain and talking to some of the brightest most impassioned representatives. All the way Well, that's all spoke of the wheel than I could get you anything about confusing man. Yet to find yours and our into a comedy assimilated. Eric raises a ton of stuff: you posted a ton of soft spot. Where we're were friendly, it's a very respectful exchange, but then come out incorporate the parts that are right, get clarity on where I think he's he's skewed for his reasons in his info tunnel. That's different from my info tunnel and I was doing it in every direction, and so it felt like being torn apart, to hold the Santer, because I was just being torn every which way. Well, it makes me give me more understand,

even of white people, will settle into their ideological bubble in Europe Well, it's a relief. It's such a relief. You know, because you got ask itself just how many questions do you wanna ask yourself right in all it in I've always thought that declaration in the world of ideas of unlimited value, although you know why I have a conservative element, but a man too much of it can tear you apart. Might I ask you once we have that like really really high openness, yeah? the danger of highlighting this language for about six or seven months that every day was a deep dive into something that was toxic, end skewed, to understand it, to try and come back out of put myself together and by the way going anyway. You know there's plenty times you cross someone who want to destroy? You were scream at you and tell you why you're awful Dar make here you make an accidental mistake like well when I was

working. When we discussing this a couple of years ago. I swipe one of your videos if you remember and put a voice over over it, and you know I thought That was warranted. I mean in retrospect. I did it without vision, consideration, and I mean I realised that very rapidly I did a voice over of one the videos that you'd produce because thought I had something to say about it and I was irritated about was irritated, will leave it at that, and that is a big mistake. That caused a tremendous amount of friction between the two of us and when it was also expose. Do I don't know a hundred thousand people before I finally took it down? I didn't take it down, exactly, but I modified it, but when you, when you are connected in some intensity fashion. Your mistakes are exaggerated to appoint this just intolerable. In all and then began it's not something you were adapted to understanding it, make a missile

A million people watch it it's like it's, it's the sword, saying that can paralyse you into inaction, it's too and the thing is, is theirs also, like I was talking about that. There's no way to have a perfect conversation about raise class engender. There was no way for me to do this when I first was trying to get Democrats to go on. You wrote in Euro Dave Bench appear all right I got I had some success. I got steely Mcchrystal. I help go to talk to Japan leaves your Harris had Michael Bandit on doom, but they were people were really tentative and afraid, and so that the only way for me to do it was for me to go on a lot of these first. Why was it novel ass? I was interested in all of a sudden being put out there on

ledge necessarily in that fashion, especially for the communities that I'm an especially as a liberal right, including in the up, but I had to be sort of a case study fora, and you know I did it, but what's funny is there's no, I. Finally, matters. There's a hundred things I would say, or do differently, there's no way to do that without nobody's an expert at it. It's late if you want to move politically you're gonna? Do nobly especially to begin rights so that right- and we don't- and this is one thing its troubled me. A lot about you know it so to answer your question at the end of this: I was. I was not in good shape for reasons you and I can get into later over bourbon, indifferent, more deaths.

They don't stick to sparkling water. Given the state of my nervous system, sparkling water insulted me I'll. Do it I'll take a fervent for both of us, but you know part of that process was it's. I don't know it's like there's theirs, it so much to go into it. So much did dived down to really try to figure it out to hold the to really be opened a one all those blind spots. Are you hadn't come ass feeling like

we're still intact, and I had to I had reason to make mistakes. That was only we split up this whole operation. It doesn't make any sense. If I'm back on the amount of stuff we got done, Europe near rethink eight mistakes, you have that one lecture, the full precedes the master and it was like how quickly can I be a fool on how many fronts the most rapidly as possible to try and just get better? I mean we were. We were we split up an entire you know video operation fund raising distribution dissemination network from it was? It was crazy dwelling. Really, what is hard on you What was hard on you was what the rate the the intensity that exposure to the all the different opinions, the consequences Of making a mistake wasn't making mistake like you might, let's say my theory of the case been wrong energy out of being a further last thing

bite, it wasn't the guy and all the other stuff and we lost, because I put call it that that that figure- which again I'm saying, is slightly overblown if I targeted a billion dollars in advertising to the wrong people, giving the wrong message and blew the mark and we lost the election. My hundred four thousand votes, instead of winning it by a hundred four thousand votes, that's a lot to live with, and I need to consider that I was so far in did Durkheim wasn't going out, I mean you can consider everything. Is you go the other thing is. I start I saw with more and more clarity. I was. I got we too much not too much at a ton of information haunt suddenly giggly hourly about my blind spots in confirmation, biases and a lot of anger and ensure a lot of those things that the upside of a lot of those things you're blind spots, your confirmation by us as your prejudices, all those things is they protect you from being overwhelmed by their air there there,

compression algorithms ended they remove information. Hordes lot about information is valuable, but Jesus, it's like how much, information. Can you swore- and we were so that reigns in what was what was really and the only way that I determined to make headway in something that complex and that corrupt and I don't mean entirely corrupt, but I mean you know politics and with that which angering rage and outrage and frustration in pain and grief that there is still It was wise to try and go forth as cleanly as possible, and no one can do that. I try and the same thing you know cause I was dealing with people's psychological problems and trying to step very carefully. Not make a mistake, but they are not enough

me too, there's idols there is. There is no not feeling if you're doing that, all day every day with those stakes multiple times a day, and now you are imported. What happened for me that was so funny. I do things that were funding which you'll be amused. The particular mused aperture. I got to the end of this and I was really seen things only in moral terms. What is interesting is at the end of this. After the the week after the election, we really, I was Pretty- Differ- related much say. Most of the conversation I have with my conservative friends call my boarded encryption friends. I call my Navy seals bodies because I was seeing I was seeing everything in like mythological goody

evil sort of charms, and it's like what was the one who was at the end of this exercise for liberalism bright for moving towards indictment discourse moving towards a democratic party that I thought was less imperfect, significantly less imperfect than the than the imperfections of the republican parties sands under trough. for me to need a lot of support from from my conservative friends and fortune I have, and what kind of support did you get why why why was it necessary to seek it out from those sources? If you talk a lot about mythology, the seven deadly sins right. If, if that's what you're conscious of a sea break is at a certain point. There is so much information in your so open there, your gift dealing, possibly with your own failings right

in your seeing others in you're trying to clean them up in it. Just it's almost like I got down the bone. I dont have the sort of like that. The particular courage and drive of my friends who are seals were in the military, but this felt like it was my version of of of confronting thing psychologically. Did it in the way that I could from a position of much more relative safety where I was getting torn apart in trying to pull back together and conservatives are they understand? They understood that better and if I start to talk about that ways in its part? Why have such a wheel house of friends is like it all, comes very genuinely, but also its strategy? You know it's like yeah, it's you need people who think about it That's a good, that's interesting observation, because you know you could you could make the claim just as the world needs an array of political viewpoints, the full array of political viewpoints.

barring corruption- let's say you need throw yourself with a full array of personalities, conservative liberal, because that way the bases are covered and different people are going to be. Different situations are going to call for different people, and, thank God there are due People and actually that's a good way to end this is like thank God. There are different people because one can do everything all the time, and so we specialise in that's true in the political realm as well, and we need dungeon and that and not assume that the concern It is a right or their liberals are right, but to understand that Each of them is right. Now and then well. The thing is that it's also such an interesting aren't you brought up that that disagreement,

when I have that was pretty intense, but we worthy our very sorted out and you need work it out. Yet shorted me right out. You know I mean I've downloaded I was tearing myself apart about being impulsive and also partly because. Of the magnitude of the mistake, the public nature at Stake- let's say you know one required I'd, also like when we went through that we knew we would get through. We just need will be rocky in a way.

It was interesting, is what I found was some of the people most adapted, pointing out my blind spots when I then was in free fall as a result of being subjected to how many blind spots I had. Of course they be the ones who would be able to orient me right cause they're the ones you could see those name right so that maybe that's part of the thing to why part of that was in that that week, where I was the most acutely flailing, let's say, of course, I'm gonna go to the people who were the ones who had the most views. That made me think about things I was like. I feel lost spawn, I'm not going to talk to people whose views I feel like that when I got home base for me, because I'm not all my home base and a different kind of inputs. You know- and I think the same is true: vice versa, show you pulled back what happens now great much like you must

you ve graduated from your new college. Let's say, and so that's it tremendous relieve like it is when you graduate from anything when you accomplish something when you finish with something, but it also leaves a huge sure you are singing to concentrate on your writing again. You have been. You have by coming out January. What's the name of that book, prodigal son and you last book the one that came out pre previously out the fire there there what I mean so what's happened so amazing. When this I had a talk with the mutual friend of Mars awhile ago. Talking about this- and I was like for me more things had been so amazing is the amount that I've learned any confluent with the series that I'm writing now the orphan action. What he's doing it's, it's like bizarre levels

synchronicity went ass in so it's funny cause. I'm I'm coming out in going right into a draft of an yeah right. Well, you do so you know so much more. I mean I've watched you over the last four years. You know so much more about the way things work than you do before- that that's gotta- have nothing but a beneficial effect on your ability to spin up stories. Won't do try to ask them in that way where it's easier. You know this is always. Why started you know? I don't I don't want or marine and make propaganda right. This was a sort of necessity and felt a bit like

all the duty, but I want to write and have people things through formats litter. One step removes through science fiction right through the thrillers through orphan acts, and it's been really gratifying. You know as those but as that series is built it some of its in there, but so I'm I'm having a renewed love affair with ass. It was a little hard to take my hands off the steering wheel of the politics and ensure you know that feeling like when you're just I was going so hard so long that part of it was like. Why should be involved with these fifty things, but I've never the scope of Eu Pet projects. I want to be working in terms of discussions with the event of a job for community and doing across the aisle. The anti polarization stuff is really add. Oh yeah. I would I really like, but we did some of that in Washington when we were bringing Republicans and Democrats congressmen and senators as well. I believe I was really unhappy when I couldn't do that. many mark is not was so worthwhile and the opportune

he's still sitting there, and so hopefully my offer hold to do that again at such gratifying work we we should- and I think what's funny without us it's like you know here you and I are all tangled up indifferent political discussions in different ways, but me her of us were particularly political. Really, you know it's like that. Never was the source or drawing well, I always made a decision. I've had to make a decision between Politics and other routes continually in my life and always pick the alternative routes the army to so right, where we should wrap this up, I guess we covered lauded ground I was really good talking to you great talk in its charter, we'll talk soon