The decision to have such an idea of the georgian people, I'm the killer, Petersen, Dat's, daughter and collaborator weekly update mom is still stable and weird stressed out she's finally going home from the hospital next week. That's about it for updates. To be honest, actually I just tried wag you b for the first time, not that that's an important one dead. But if you haven't tried a five where'd, you try it. It's blue! really the best thing I've ever Eden was like eating chocolate? I was cried. Sorry, that's not an important date, but I was still excited about it. I've, when eating meat for so long anyway. This week's episode titled progress despite everything, features Doktor Steven Pinker Steven Pinker is a professor in the Department of Psychology at Harvard University Dad's going

produce him right away, as I won't give anything more away. Hope you enjoy it. Doctor Steven Pinker is a very interesting human being we return dad's conversation with Doktor Steven Pinker progress, despite every very needs today to be talking to Doktor Steven Pinker from Harvard University He's the joint stone family, professor in the Department of Psychology there distorted dish additionally Stanford MIT he's an experimental psychologist to conduct research and visual cognition cycling. Wasted, A social relations doktor Pinker grew in montreal- is be Miguel and its Phd from Harvard

he's one numerous prizes for research, is teaching and is nine box, including the language instinct. How the mind works a blank slate, the better angels of our nature, and the sense of star he's an elected member of the National Academy of Sciences a two time. Poland, surprised, finalist. A humanist of the year a period of nine honorary doctorate and one of foreign policies, world top one hundred public intellectuals and times one hundred most influential people in World today is chair, of the usage panel of the American Herod dictionary and rights frequently for the New York Times the guardian and other publications enlightenment now the case for reason, science, humanism and progress with its tenth and best selling book published in February two thousand and eighteen.

And it's very nice by the way to have the opportunity to speak with you again, thanks very much for making the time he had written. So can I ask you: it's been about a year since we talk lasted. I guess I'd like to ask you. First of all, a purse late. What's this year be like for you, you ve become a much more controversial figure. I would say that would really be predicted. You always seem to me to be a solid. Liable interesting means- scientist, not someone who would attract a tremendous amount of critical attention, and yet you ve become well, oddly enough associated with the intellectual dark web. What ever that happens to be in so much of what doing, is controversial. And so, what's that been like, and once you life be like over the last, while Are you you wouldn't think that a defensive reason, science

humanism, progress would be incendiary and I'm hardly flame flower and analysed do. I have put forward some very controversial ideas. Ass, such as there are men and women, are distinguished people that we are all harbour some unsavory motives like revenge, it might seem well he's gotten better turns out to be a radical inflammatory. I bought there are, is personal, the sheer incredulity because the view of the world, but you get from journalists and so different from the view that will be to get from data because journalism reports everything that goes wrong. It doesnt work what exactly right, if there were things go right every year there is no way of going about it, and so they just the sheer disbelief on top of that. There are intellectual factions that are committed to the idea that the world has never been worse than it is now, and the data on him progress underlines

some of their buried, their foundation, beliefs immense, although it does a tract some large, some opposition people- think of it as a defence of the liberal, capitalism or defence. At the opposite, secular humanism, traditional liberalism and so does he get some people exercised. Basically anyone if your social critic. If your reputation comes on saying, what's going wrong about current society, then You are committed to the idea that things have gotten gotten worse and the idea that things are as far as they used to be not as bad as they could be, is an insult to that those core. Greece wanna, take any teacher surprising thing, because violence also lets. Let's talk Well that little bit I mean here some of the things I know I think I know then maybe you could,

describe some of the things you know, and I started learning that the world had been improving work for you in committee about five years ago now and started looking at the data on it. G and sustainable economic development, and at the some bad apple, article news, I think, they're. What we're doing to the oceans is fundamentally unforgivable, end and foolish beyond belief, but there's some echo article news of surprising positivity like there was a paper published nature, not so Go stating, for example, that an area twice the size of the? U S has green in the last fifteen years. Think was last fifteen or twenty years not actually happened to be as a consequence of increased carbon dioxide, because plants can keep their pours closed if there is more carbon dioxide, and so they can live in

or semi arid areas, and there is more forests in the northern hemisphere than you were a hundred years ago. And more forests in India and China than there were thirty years ago, and then He's gone along with a massively improved stamp standard of living on the Child mortality rate in Africa is now the same as it was in Europe in nineteen. Fifty two, which is a statistic that I just regard, is absolutely miraculous the african economies are growing, sub saharan african economies seem to be growing faster at the moment, is to start a reliable than I can. He's anywhere else in the world, partly because the Africans are getting connected electronically and have access to reasonable information it to something approximating, let's say: stable currency alternatives there. There's a people or the rate of poverty is diminishing.

An amazing rate. Right week we have poverty, considering it out a dollar ninety a day between two thousand and two thousand and twelve and I've read criticisms that signal that was an arbitrary number. But if you look at three eighty a day You see the same decline. Look at seven sixty a day you see the same decline noticed precipitous Andy. Even the? U N, not no one, I would say for its optimistic prognostications estimates that at this rate by the year twenty thirty, there won't be any one in the world whose living below the current poverty level. So also there are some positive statistic: soul. What? What? What would you like that that? Oh yes, I know those are all of those whose numbers are reported: Engrafted, enlightenment now, but also what else?

illiteracy, is declining, I've read so vile avow, violent crime, including violence against women and children, are declining tat. Labor is declining adapted warfare is declining, have people have more leisure, If more access to small luxuries, like here and now before, you have been fair. So it's funny that that all of these grapples if human progress, which one would think vindicate the attempt to make the world a better place, is not just do good and is not romantics. Not you hope it really can improve the world if we set our minds to to do it action around so much anger, partly because they were so. I used to thinking that things have gotten better confuse it with,

certain kinds of magical thinking, soldiers, bad things get. This must mean that there is a force in the universe. Didn't bedtime Harry's us ever upward, which makes progress happened by itself, which is the exact opposite to reality: the universe. Now he doesn't care about aspect there as a number of features better hustled pushing back at us, lifelike, entropy, white guy, like pathogens this your visa ban, what it and to be, as is, is Ria the root of all human suffering? ran to other things that are peculiar manner. So interesting and markets are first of all, on its pretty hard on the Marxists, I would say

because, even though there is inequality and inequality is a problem, first of all, it doesn't look like inequality can be placed at the feet of capitalist. It seems to me to be a far more intractable problem than that second, its clear that the poor are getting Richard despite the fact of inequality and third- and this is hard on the environmentalists, I think, is that it turns out that if you get people's income up to about five thousand dollars a year in terms of gross domestic product. They actually start to care about the environment, which I This is because they're not worried about dying instantly that day or that weak, and so we seem to be in this perverse situation for a pessimist where we can make people wealthy and it in a positive manner and

We could make the world a better place simultaneously and that doesn't seem to be very hard on any along whose Ology is predicated on a family. Pessimism or you get the other people, like the biologists. Do this sometimes and say well, yeah, purchasing all these short term prosperity up. You know for these billions of people, but after ass of some medium to long term. Eventually precipitous. You know apocalyptic collapsing so difficult to formulate an argument against that kind of idea, because well you never know when some. I think this is one of the thing tell it takes you to task force. Me. Yes, even though I accept the extensive average half way of terrorists spoken, the better easels of our nature and in right now

I ended, and indeed we do. We cannot take incremental improvement as itself an indication that the risk of it has to pieces at an acceptable level may not so hard to estimate but the risk was asked for years, but there are certainly some, but we must be very seriously, but you're on either hand over be up the fact that you mention are often resisted by people in green movement, but if, if anything, they should give hope in an succour to the environmental, because it shows that it is not true that we have to choose between economic growth, which people not one of your and protecting the environment, but that we can have both. Indeed, it there's some ways in which they go together. Instead have done. The most to clean up our environment in the last ten years are the wealthiest nations, because I can afford it if you're the poor has emerged, will you first priority is put on the table in a roof over your head.

The value of the fate of the white Rhinoceros, but only by allowing a list of priorities, and he might be willing to put up with Small get is really awful we do about. I know visited cities like out what my, which are one of which I am a bit in our. But it would be much worse. Do not have any electricity, but on the other hand, when you get more prosperous, then you willing to spring for about Peter, I energy negative nuclear Energy and, as you mentioned year, values had I'm a hierarchy and more long term, future concerns, Lou larger it in your eyes. So it's an odd something that both the hard right and the hard Green haven't comment, which is that if we want to protect the environment, we have two seconds ice prosperity, go back to a simpler, more peasant style of life. Ivy

The greens say, while that we're gonna give up maternity, give up capitalism go back to women living off the land. Hard rates as well. I do want to do that was do at home with the iron it he'll be It is that if of policy and technology are deployed, intelligent as they ought to be, then we can afford to protect the environment without going backwards, and for going all of them, yeah advocates of maternity leave. I was always shocked when I started to learn about this there was so much good. Both economic and ecological news with economic news, props being somewhat better than the ecological reasons. Mean that we can sit back and relax in environmental itself up all by itself, Quite the contrary. We know why the environment got better combination of policy like the cleaning arachtu, clean water at the United States and nineteen. Seventy

and technology like catalytic converters, scrubbers and energy. So it doesn't happen by itself a factor that is one of the great policies, people's understanding of progress, but they equate the existence of progress with progress happening at all by itself, as if it were some forces which is contrary to our reality. The other dimension that be the existence of human progress is a blow to doctrinaire Marxist who certainly true because we have seen be spectacular: economic growth, India and China when it liberalize their economies, disasters of, say, North Korea, with a beautiful control through South Korea, saying geography, same resources and culture. Language said the story I with differential Such is the political system in South Korea is a much better place to live. It's not only fear, but it is also more earnestly

risk for launching the debate slavishly she jack on the nineteenth of April, and I've been preparing for that. You know, and I thought what I might do to begin with this list is a graph that I think human progress start or put out it might in that Ridley scrapped or maybe hands. Is it hands Roslin Rosalie Media Martin, Mary, to be as the proprietor, if you like, but what they call the most miraculous most important graph and the world shows this unbelievable its salaries of human prosperity, basically kicking exponentially around eighteen. Ninety five gets a little bit earlier, but this is for a combination of data sources, including rate historical listen, Madison began the project to letters retrospectively, estimate I'll gdp per capita,

in areas where they did not collect those data time by using historical data, It is astonishing, say when I first saw that curve is working and berries was my nature, I was stunned. You're mean business, visual hockey stick. Yes, you know, I look about my think. Well, lock I mean what's the issue here, you still have inequality, but you can't put it at the fear of capitalism because it seems to be a much more fundamental mechanism. Will these covering certain regions yes, why? Now, more even less inequality a minute there seems to be this proclivity towards the unequal distribution of phenomena, noxious monetary phenomena, but I mean, if you look in virtually every domain of human endeavour, that's associated with creativity. You get a prize

distribution of productivity. You know I mean a small number of basketball players shoe the vast majority of the hoops in a small number of record, ah recording artists record the majority if they had a small number of planets have most of the mass, an actor This I mean I'm not trying to make a case that inequality isn't a problem. I'm trying to make a case that its away deeper problem than the Marxist Brazil, and then you have the other problem that, while the poor keep getting richer running half the world is middle class. Now an obese city is a bigger problems and starvation. I'm really having a hard time too. To understand what the Marxist have left as a doctrine. It's like the problem. You guys were identifying seems to not exist anymore you're, so part of it is that their file is a kind of

greater indian objective is in which you have a pure, untrammelled unconstrained. Market, capitalism with no regulation, no social safety net and one of the discoveries, and that I make, which was almost a surprising as three they hockey stick raffer prosperity. The fact that in the twentieth century, every developed every rich country. I went on a spray of social spending and save it for me baseline about one point: five percent of GDP redistributed to Berlin and the poor and the elderly and the sick now be media and always see the dreamy distributes about twenty two percent of its prosperity and all which countries are in a band from about twenty percent of GDP. To about there percent have United States at the lower end. Actually, Canada, to my surprise,

eyes are har. Homa native land is actually that lower than states. I fear What did you already know? Canada? There would appear to have a more generous, a welfare state in the United States, In fact, the United States would be even higher if you added all of the Socialists that is done through employers like retirement and health insurance in other countries is done through the government. But even if we just look at government redistribution, we're just does not exist. A wealthy country without a extensive social safety for a number of recent years here, if you tell me what you think about this, so I've been trying to that same steel man. The

Positions of the left, I don't mean the radical left. I mean the moderate left, because I believe that the dialogue between the moderate left in the modern right is what keeps our ship stabilized. Essentially it, and for this reason, somalian people have to group together cooperative cooperatively, competitively dissolve difficult problems, because we have difficult problem, stats, entropy, let's say in and the assault of the natural world. So we have to group together when we do that we create hierarchies, and we do that in large part. We hope I helped, those with the most competent at solving the problems to the higher positions in the hierarchies. Now that can be contaminated by powered tyranny and crookedness and porcelain.

In all of our poor measurement. But fundamentally, if you're hierarchy is functional, the more competent people rise did the talk now that produces the advantage of solving the problem, but it produces the disadvantage of making a lot of people stack up at the bottom of that hierarchy, because that's what tends to happen because of the pretty distribution in there and that the built in proclivity for inequality. So the answer to that seems to be bobbing produced the higher. We accept the inequality, but then we attend with some degree of clarity of vision and care to those who are dispossessed by the necessity of the hierarchy is in your place seems to be from what you just said. Is that that's essentially what we ve been doing in civilised democracies for the last hundred years, and that seems to be roughly work Well, it is yes

whether or not be hierarchies are our hopped about, in the sense that we better off with a hierarchy of because of just what will happen in this. We need market economy. You may have winner takes all situations where be most editing. Story the most efficient car, the best washing machine, in a global market, will push out competitors and see get rid of distribution, whether not its Anyone would have decided if they were to plan the entire society might even be beside the point. As long as you don't have several times distribution. It might naturally result if it is not explicitly of course, which, with some of our policies, do as you mention it? Looked like the like environmental progress that far from being in opposition to economic growth, is often economically

that's! Let lets people become more munificent. Munificent wore a generous Reasons why every wealthy country has a social safety net and why asked countries get richer? Why Brazil and India and China baby? I turn their attention to work: more social welfare, the tv, a european and north american society stated in the twentieth century, and the developing world is following. Hardly it's because some of the investment in some of the redistribution is investment is a public good, truly good if the entire population educated for everyone, including the people who are higher in them So some of it is just investment in public goods so that everyone can take on the marxist position because the funny thing is is that no you lived in Montreal. I lived in Montreal

montier, also relatively flat city in some sense, in terms of its economic distribution like there are no pockets of clarifying poverty, at least on the island and it's a very safe place, and and so it socially rich in some sense, like always felt wealthy. When I lived in Montreal, even though I was living on a beach tease, stipend, it was very area at the very least cost. Didn't get her brown Marjorie condominiums right right, but what was so lovely about Montreal was that it was safe. It was beautiful. And it had an unbelievably vibrant public culture yes, it was all a consequence of the fact that people, generally speaking, were well enough off, and so you know, if you contrast out with it,

countries like Brazil, where a tiny minority of people have all the wealth of their stop with the problem of living in gilded prisons. They to move around and helicopters, like, I think, one of the things that people really lies, as societies become richer. Is that it's better to calculate your wealth on a broader level, to include more people within the purview of what constitutes wealth. For you, because it's so nice to be in the city, that's arriving and and and healthy, and and and not crime, written and resentful and and those need to be factored in. Limits of individual wealth. That's right, and there is a debate amongst scientists as to whether it is inequality that drives these other social goods, such as low crime such as public investment sessions that education or whether its prosperity is not so easy to tell them apart

because in general, poorer countries like South Africa and Brazil, have sky high inequality, trees like Norway, Sweden and Switzerland have less inequality, also be rich, I'm in so easy to see which one is driving, is ass. Aside is get get richer, as we discussed. I beg him to redistribute partly out of investing in a public good such as well a crime such as happened. Educated popular suggested, a really good thing. Hardly it is literally insurance in and the euphemism social safety net, and that is something that catches to you. If you fall factors the idea even when people are well off a worry better there there, but for fortune go. I bet you gotta be nice to people on the way out cause you might need them on way down and so putting a bottom swore.

How were you could be, makes ever feel a little more secure that if the worst thing happened, they will not be destitute. It's not that I'm calling for people who are in the top ten percent say of the economic distribution, or even in the top one percent, to suffer a substantial reversal of fortune at some point in their life and it's a very rare person, very, very rare person who isn't at economic danger of economic disadvantage. At some point in their life, for some reason will certainly people moving out of baby. I'm a cop guess I'll talk, ten percent of the income distribution. Although his argument for more social spending, I would be to indemnify people against the worst outcome. I don't think that many people in the top ten purchasing up near the top one percent.

Whoever go on welfare, but still a lot of people in the middle class can imagine if they don't want to be good you'll, be out on the streets day in their job or have ass, suddenly supper of digging a medical expense in the third reason, after investment and insurance has just done compassion. Empathy meet me c in the history of the west. After the industrial revolution, you get a literature of of compassion, what what are you. You have a little batch girl. You have me easy, learn our shop in prison for stealing a grant to save his sister. You have the the Jones Bearing Grandpa side of sixty six groups of wrath, people are also moved by sheer fellow feeling with their without their compatriots their fellow citizens.

It really. Maybe that's another reason why the people who are criticising you're informed optimism are irritated because you know, if you are fundamental political doctrine, insists that up everything your primary identity is your group, whatever that happens to be, and the primary motivating factor for the function of your group is raw naked power played out within that group against all other groups. The introduction of something like the notion of an implicit compassion, further down downtrodden, seems to like wreak havoc with the purity of that idiot, logical position, but, like I've, never met anyone in my life, and I know what a large number of extraordinarily successful, economically successful people I've never met anyone in my life who walked down the street?

Caesar down and out alcoholic whose clearly suffering terribly. As a consequence of dwelling on the street, what would you say celebrate the justice of the universe in elevating them above that, in whose suffering I mean we do know from from social psychology. If there is a tendency to America to blame the victim to believe in a just world, so I think those are too that we have compassion for everyone, but also a feeling that the tat those who are badly off must have done something to due to deserve it. We do see this course of acid rain. Is that you- and I are usually attention now because of course, busy attention. I think the presidency has also large awaited by some degree of ethnic solidarity. It has been noted that some of the job,

this welfare states of Europe have at least historically occur in countries that are ethnic, we more homogeneous. I certainly racially more homogeneous than the United States, which tends to be somewhat stingier, but this is not yet. There is some: U S, destiny into what we can't you rise, as our group and one of the great achievements of any kind of nation building has to students still feeling well we're all Canadians or we're all all swiss oral out wrong iraqi. Something that is actually not happened in Iraq, which is a big problem, is less you have that fictional family, a fictional clan nation, we'll tell not to cooperate, including you in ways of providing social welfare for the the worst and data. What's a ridiculously interesting point, I would say, because one of the things You really see in Canada, for example, and our prime minister is a real difficulty of

The idea is that there really is no canadian culture is no central canadian ethos, and what we have is a plurality of multi cultural Microcosm said that outside they all through the best. Nobody is. The canadian mosaic, as opposed to the melting pot, is very way about the Prime Minister's Father Pierre. Earlier to now famous, we try to forge ahead. Creating an identity that spanned English, the anglophone francophone, exemplified in himself because he was a dashing charismatic figure was distinctly canadian. Just wait! You ass a friend wasn't american. Yet the rose in his lap, he wore a cape things perfectly my window, he was governor and wit, charming. We all felt The time I remember this, I remembered shrewd Albania. We all felt that is not something to aspire to and he did its policies with the symbolism forge a kind of canadian conscious

above and beyond the mosaic of the lebanese radiance of the italian Gavi, jewish Canadians and so on, I once if with sufficient, but would you call it success to at least keep the country together, which was something quite remarks but meanwhile he had to have already declared martial law to do it. Yet, during the October crisis, when separatists tat, kidnapped Trade Commissioner and a government minister, right a dark day for Canada was all summer, looks like there's a there's, a contradiction. Maybe- and you could tell me what you think about this in the in a certain element of left his doctrine, because at assuming that multiculturalism is can be reasonably viewed as part of the left is doctrine. Yes, it is the case that people are more likely to be generous to those What they see in some sense is there in group, then what its suggestions that you need to take

the mosaic of of your culture. The african Canadians in the european Canadians and the asian Canadians the same in the U S and have them maintain their their culture and their traditions, but also to embed them inside a broader game that concept Suits the national identity that unites them all, despite their differences, and it seems like given what you just described, that unless you can forge that trans, ethnic or trans racial identity that you more The people to be less generous in their social policies

I consider this to be one of the key. Have he ideas of coming out of the enlightenment, opposed by the council in light of the nineteenth century by the romantic setting out the nationalists and that be better. A state, a group of people under the jurisdiction of the government, or how, together, basically by a social contract, I agree with that we're all in this together. There are many public goods that we'd better. We share public custom could suffer a government that well just you get him by serving in our interests, is way of improving our welfare you're, very getting conception of a nation leave blatant soil nationalism of nineteenth century continuing well into the twenty eight it makes us a nation is that, were all were all white. We asked me: I come from the same ancestry,

the successful nations are often ones that manage to force the somewhat artificial identity fascinating. Because then ok that, then we got two arguments here for that. For that time,. Let's say artificial or conception a nation building process. One is that maybe you could allow people in their different ethnic enriched, groups to maintain key elements of their identity and and and feel comfortable doing so. But so embed them in a broader game, military played and laid out exactly by the same token, given your logic. That's all the most effective antidote to the kind of nationalism? That is the Anti Terry, and that also seems to be in the resurgence, and you see,

this I really see this as having been done extraordinary effectively in the United States. Now they had the advantage of the examples of England and France, but that the american experiment was an experimental conceptual nation building, is like he has acquitted principles that we can all agree on. Despite our differences and to the degree that we decide that we will agree on these principles, then we're the same enough. We can cooperate. We don't need to revert to nationalism. Or other in a declaration of independence. That was made crystal clear to pursue life liberty, and happiness. Governments are formed with the consent of the government to allow people to do first to prosper. Nothing in the declaration said anything about the european Big White in Pakistan,

The question it was really a social contract. I set out with first principles which of course, since employment problems with the course of the year, the african citizens. It took her quite awhile to work out and they were tensions in the twentieth century, with ways of immigration, airline, Eastern Europe, Jews from Italians, and they were, of course, tensions between the tell in the Irish by the standards of human rights, they got worked pretty well capitalizing on. The future of our psychology shows that, even though we do have in group favouritism, we do have tribal listen what counts as a tribe, mystery elastic by skin color. We form coalitions that could occur, skin color and successful country is one that happen alive on that? You must dissipate form a virtual tried just simply every citizen country and our ultimate,

every citizen in larger units, pudding, beer, humanity, wealth lies depends more on undermining certain features. Nature, such as in solidarity, has been noted, that in cultures and have a lot of cousin marriage, Where you related to people in your plan, it's rather hard to do nation building there like a like in Iraq. These people have sense of super roared net, wealthy to a coalition about their blood relatives, and they are taken types. My relatives by marriage, but this also played a suffered in the history of the United States in this wonderful snatcher dialogue at the end of the first Godfather movie, when Michael Corleone e lists after a Pearl harbor and eyes by their citizens, what did you go to get stupid? You country, your blood, you can rely on.

Maybe a sap guys were strangers, and that is a perfect encapsulation. Difference between traditional tribalism every mentality that we need for successful right, who also sounds like its outsource, like one of the ways to combat right wing identity, terrorism, that the new emergence of right, when I get to terrorism, is to make that clear, actual distinction between national identity, that's predicated on blood, soil, let's say kinship direct kinship work or even secondary kinship, and these these more abstract conceptions. Now it seems to me so just just you may notice, or you may not, but I've been Shapiro new book is number one on the New York Times best seller list and I read been spoken. I'll back- and I think it shares some features with your book.

And it's yours. Some features with my book and I would say Features it shares with my book is that I stress the importance of the judeo christian stories as part of that conception. Substructure that unites civilization and then it has features in common with book, because it's also a pro enlightenment manifesto salad. Reading the achievements, let's say, of the Greeks in the rationalists moving forward from their like Shapiro, sees our cultural, and this is something that I agree. With, I would say, as a marriage between that you do a christian tradition and that emergent enlightenment, you're you're, and stop me if I'm wrong, but you're emphasis. So let's say they were playing this

abstract conceptual game that unites us as a people independent of our activity in our race, and there are principles that constitute the game rules for that agreement, and you see those as primarily deriving from the enlightenment and starting vat. Well. But there is nothing you under the salmon. Certainly sunlight and ideas head of precursors of me, the other, the brass oscillating Should Greece. But that set of ideas they came together needed was further elaboration. I think that that much more about a basis of human progress than the judeo Christian, I get any every area, intellectual movement, draws from pre existing ideas, since otherwise some I cherry picking from the judeo christian tradition.

We do not depend on belief in I'm disgraced. Our saviour do not depend on one got. His constant many guides really depended on human wellbeing. Wife liberty, the pursuit of happiness at suddenly bleeding, regardless of your theological What? What do you think so here is the question I have about. That is that it seems to me so that the people who formulated the declaration of independence, for example, accept it as self evident that human beings were intrinsically valuable and the locusts of sovereignty, in so far as they were the citizens who would determine the course of the nation and there's some recognition there. As far as I'm concerned of. Intrinsic value outside of a rational argument. You know that as far as out as an a priori,

Greece opposition. We accept these truths are self evident, right and and and the the the most fundamental truth about is that it something like, in my view it something like be strange: metaphysical equivalence of man before God, the fact that we all have intrinsic value- and that's where I see the enlightenment being irreducible e embedded inside this underlines structure, and that's that's different than the idea progress, which is something that you're focusing on that and that, I think, is more attributable to the development, let's say of science and technology, but it still seems to me that the end, I met, had to happen under structure that, in build it to emerge forward

self evident truth to be accepted universally as self evident. For example, I agree that their presence scientific ideas disappears. The set of ideas that I draw together under the movement of humanism. It's not clear that Pepe Self Evident right to life. Liberty in happiness is particularly to Christian. I think I'll be fine back in. In fact, in the jewish tradition a guard shows the Jews. We were the chosen people, so the idea, universal Human, worth it and well being is not a particularly jewish nationalities. Written question notion you got to its only you. You have to accept Jesus in order to escape the eternal damnation None of that in the declaration I would still further and those are the things that are almost prerequisite to even considering what ought to go into

a country or anything else, namely you gotta be alive rugby. Ah, you got to be able to express, opinions were even have a conversation. Sega freedom happiness, as we know from from illusionary considerations, is basically the set of motives that kept our ancestors alive and allow us to come into existence in the first place, combating ivy grinder of entropy. So I think that the allocation of Adam Whiteman does not particularly judeo Christian, but more existential. It just comes from what are we actually prerequisites to being a incarnate reasoning? Creature, I'm gonna prescient Don two elements of that and I do not disagree with you by the way, because I am not convinced that I'm right it's just that this. This is how things have laid themselves out for me in my thinking me one of the things it's very interesting about the book of Genesis. Steadied insists that human

things are made in the image of God and that that gives them an intrinsic value and that there are made in the image of God, regardless of whether their male or female, and then I know the Jews emerges, the chosen people and the old test, but there is also a strong idea, powerful conceptual idea in the old testament anymore, is that the people of Israel to truly Israel lights are those wrestle with God. It was like an it's like an end an existential adventure, is partly based on blood- it's probably based on ethnicity, but there's a conceptual idea to their that through those does the struggle for ethical endeavour. Let's say in this struggle: for four for the discovery of the meaning of existence is asking what marks out the true follower of God and then, as Judaism, transforms itself, at least in some?

into Christianity. What I see happening is that you, you get the idea that that identity with God that existed in Genesis that that entails value starts to become more humanised that really manifests itself sort of fully in the renaissance that that they religious figures start to become more individual ended. The idea that each individual does in fact have a divine worth bit that that that keeps the stayed at Bay is part of what allows for the conception that people are deserving of the chance, independently of the rift necessity and the race in their created their sexuality, to do such things as pursue life

liberty and happiness, and I seek as otherwise I can't see. I can't see where the ideas would have otherwise emerged during lifeblood workers. Finally, the enlightenment came about as a reaction to see what happens if you ground even worse stop and such as the european wars of religion, unprecedented carnage, act together with the burning of heretics, if you're, going back to the lab scriptures, particularly in me, he revival I've got commends the Israelites to gauge the luncheon site after another there is no prohibition against slavery. There's no prohibition is no prohibition again stuck with me of forms, torture for for victims of crimes, like Alan I'm sorry, I don't. I always very easy to come up

with a notion of universal human rights. From here scripture or Christianity, I think the reason that it happened to me if you like, those why anything happened track again, let it was a violation of media with carnage from the war, supervision, it also it's when you, when you start appeal away scripture and dogma and doctrine when you left with is our common humanity mainly be there's no way I can insist that We invest your special you're, not because I hear you're not an unhoped for you to take it seriously, tools. We engage in any kind of discourse with diverse other people. What we are forced to to fall back on is what we have in common. We are about second we're. Both rational, we'll be believed to suffer flourish.

I made the same stuff, is you. I can claim that Europe's our view, our ability, Chris Opposition and fast, we can see the notion of of universal human rights and its government as a derivative means of pursuing those rights, as opposed to say, divine rewarding lucky it so hard and devices like this, because it depends to some degree on your time frame and also on whether you take the broad picture or you concentrate on the details to some degree, because I, like I mean I've, got no objection Do any of the descriptions of the horrors of religious, I believe that you just laid out. I mean I would place that more in the domain of tribalism than in the domain of religion, because I think the tribal is tendency is the warlike ten.

See that, while the other day most severely punished. Heretics are often those who have tried Those are the ones who really want to participate as an example I societies, it is is tribalism, I think there's also a kind of pure tyrannical emphasis on me. On unsure essence that anyone who contaminates our party politics must be expelled, asked is definitely Stephanie that and in what were you see that with taboo violations in absolute arrival in trials? Have wonderful? materialism, be indefinitely the challenging Legitimate authority is itself inherently evil. It's not the idea, sizing the leader is essential to the health of a nation which has caused it a vague idea of democracy. Freedom of speech, you happy believe, make fun of the president's. Yes I'll, get it

and the moral obligation to obligation to inadequate that's a deeply on intuitive feeling that the natural human tendencies, to leave me notice from the work of people like irish waiter and John Height, and there This is the most measures stay. Attacking the king is a mortal sin that will give a high hierarchies are themselves often moralized. That's it Actual human idea that was gonna break is, as we say, deconstructed or or rejected. I join you like you'd, including the rationale forgotten laid out in the declaration, simply Safaris, say because What I see happening is that over the thousands of years of religious thinking, let's say that that went on in the west is that what emerged initially was the idea that there is something akin to day,

indeed the characterized human beings when an that stated very early on in the religious tradition and in a very surprising way, partly because its distributed between men and women equally, and it seems to be partly a creative function in human beings, partake in the co creation of existence and partly in ethical function in that were called upon to act courageously and truthful. And that's that's that's the core idea. I think that's expressed in June send it it's it's a really sophisticated and demanding idea, and that I see it like the mustard seed that, for its part, the parable ended in the new testament. It's this tiny idea that takes root and against incredible odds, manifests itself across the centuries,

till we get is an increasing realisation of the universality of humanity and the bad constitutes part, the core of the enlightenment- and you know you you made arguments about religious sectarianism and, and also the and and and religious, like tribal warfare. But the funny thing is is that I would say that the critics of your defence of the western enlightenment project- My point to the same details in some sense and to say well, look at the consequences of enlightened thinking is being endless warfare since the enlightenment there's been a tremendous,

generation of destructive technology. On the the negatives which you can point to a case by case in piece by piece, arguably outweigh the positives. I mean I certainly don't believe that People could make that case, so I dont so difficulty when you will you trying to take up. A long view of history to decide what which part of the melody you focus on like Isn t, always had been the details that that the sea. Work against. Those themes is I talk about the distorted directly warfare in some detail in bearings, creature with was something of a reprieve, chat, Rockies it is certainly not true that wars increased after you went quite contrary. If you look at the

percentage of years that the great powers they were at war with each other in actually comes goes down. Starting in the seventeenth century, great powers Donovan occur anymore, you haven't, haven't promote five years, but be it what happened was that about in the centuries after the I hated since your two trains that we do not rush, which is that war is actually got shorter and less frequent, but once they did occur, got deadlier Edison and he's got more efficient, echoing what people in a shorter amount of time, partly because of the about weaponry, but also, just because of our social organisation, been able to construct large

prison, tat, young man an inch. Seventy that'll feel this can fire until and a lot of that was driven actually by hunger and light acknowledges of nationalism which matter of world wars when starting in eighteen, forty five for the first time, wars became less frequent, shorter and less steadily, and so first time in human history, where you have a systematic move away from occurred after ninety. What he fight with the formation of the United Nations, with a kind of unprecedented universalism, the kind of global consciousness, including all races. All religions still night was universally accepted, even as an aspiration about better me. It's pretty new and here the street, it did not occur during the time. It must be a european wide eighteenth century, but I think it was the consolidation of waiting

ideals, including the formation of the United Nations, which was whereby I am I need hardly say. A perpetual piece of course did not happen at the time. I buried button enjoyed instance and crucially, for universal Declaration of Human its nations. Now the sustainable development goals you have people coming together, nations coming together, some of them not from a judeo christian tradition, bite it by any means and agree on things like well, it's really better. If he will benefit I've disease, it's better. If eighties of diet, never spell your wife and kids go school, it's better! If we are going to war. The environment. All these things we having common because work, you would be seen on the lack of you. Worthy of unnecessary suffering. Something like that, and maybe there even the larger. The utility of unnecessary malevolence at something

You need to do to endorse atmosphere. Humans have the ability to turn to suffer or flourish so So let me switch disappeared. If you don't mind and I'd I'd like to speak a bit more personally, if you would harm, what's the consequence, for you over the last year of this increasing public. Exposure and also controversy in, and what do you think just out of curiosity about being associated with this loose, I D W you know which often have no one really joy, but just emerged out of the blue. I mean, I think I saw the people in it in some sense, you're the most surprising because while we are sorry I need you may be the prototype tat, I am more provide you just

from being I'm just not on having drunk the Kool aid of political correctness. Terrorism, social justice warfare, weakness. You're you're not are met drivers ones you have signed up to. Associated with this. Is this, of course, whimsical humorous entered he called intellectual guard right right. Social divide is a job because, of course, there is a dark were right. So you'll get all sorts of ways because it said ridiculous club. I mean I've been trying to figure out what characterizes the people who have been loosely aggregate in that association? You know, and I think that a certain fortunate independence is part of it. You know that Almost everyone in that group has their own me.

Such support. I mean you're university, professor, obviously in that, could be taken from you, but I mean you have nine books, many of them, are best sellers, and why do you have? the means to keep yourself rating as an independent being on, without being pendant on any nessus, external bureaucracy, and I have another tenure which means that I'm little harder to fire than most people in this job right exists so I guess you certain. I used to be cynical about that for ten years unique sinecure, university professors, but there is a part, rationale. You'd, give you some integrate into actual independence, Emily coming to appreciate. Ten years later, you can Indian Senate is key listen except when it's absolutely necessary.

Yeah. I, because really and politically, of course, the people in a semi. There is no snares and, as you said, there is no such thing as virtual web, except the parrot job for the people. Were are connected to it. We have a certain amount, I willingness to take into account, bow down to some of the hyades. I have become we ve been ox on in college campuses is politically, then the people been connected to our are operator there are very diverse there. Therefore, that there is, there is almost a complete range, except for the absence of people who are politically correct. The other thing that's very interesting about the group. Two other things I would say is that being various very effective users of social media and also they dont think that their audiences stupid you don't you

yes, I think that I think that is true and it's one of the keys to effective teaching to effective communication. One of the first piece of advice got my way cross over from academia to popular writing, I'm an editor at a university press. You told me they ve, been mistaken. Academics often make when I I I don't be it is they talk down. Replacing the audience is not, as they are certainly keys, Assuming your audience is you're intellectual here, but they happen not to know some stuff. Right. I often that also has a writing advice in my book, the sense of style but you're a better, also right that this independent minded people, but we ve, been Talking about try not to use insults and put down as a means of argument, not even so much they speak stupid being evil. You don't agree with me

and you are a rapid, reprehensible he'd be yeah. This is definitely that's. Definitely a mistake with, within the bounds of that group. Let's say I think it's a brand mistake. Let's say whenever that happens so well made of quotas. Must that defines the behind a political who have we got social justice warfare that these people are reacting to, namely that thing the mode of argument that I think are often too distance ourselves from you don't agree with you when you are on world crap late, right. Ok, so now what spin the personal consequences for you, like you, ve, been at the centre of affair. A bit of controversy. In I mean it's very difficult, You have a series of best selling books, for example in speaking tours and so forth, without.

Being controversial in some way, because it probably indicates that you're not saying anything of any real novelty or importance, but what how is it affected you and, and has it been a net positive or negative? And then, how are people acting to you. I was unquestionably positive so far I have we escaped be the outrage marks that we know can be aroused by advancing. Have Knox opinions. I have gotten the sudden anger I have. I was subjective a rather. Our incident were handled. That I was on a call. The political correctness like now from where I saw my my remarks were wasted. Video was then say baby, but are you all right in the Nazis? Each went to

a kind of denunciation on the left. Why should we make a second wind because new times stepped into my defence, Jesse Single Road and a bed with my photo warning signals how social media making a stupid using you back on you as evidence with mythology of social media So I came out of that unscathed, on the I do live in some degree of fear back that amount could turn on hearing at any moment. It was a wonderful were saved by by Neil Ferguson expressing a similar fear. He said mom. My wife is made of a braver stuff. When I tell him not work, the visa waiver stop than almost anyone else in the world, so I dont junk, of course, his wife being iron, who sang bravest people on the planet.

I was a sly, a little bit of human signals, personal situation and a reminder that people have withstood much fiercer attacks than any of us have to worry about right right right in our people, responding to in public like when you're out in public come in here, a rather striking bigger, easy to recognise what happens when you come when you go out or how to resolve do you always have? I do its part, and I have nothing to complain about people, people nice me. I expect after this what we are doing now, Aristotle be recognised, even work. As I know you have brought into force only begin. Also in person. As we know, people can't remit.

Often mitigate the creative animosity. That is easy to express in we when you're anonymous in highly yeah I've a shield so familiar very few people are much more civil face to face I've gotten you a lot of what am I going to buy prize, a number of people waiting to be saying that I've been good for their mental health. Doesn't let us say are even though technical, like you, psychologists. I, like you, I'm not a clinical psychologist. I have no competence whatsoever in treating it as psychological problems. Pressure even have to explain to me don't ask me: what can I do for a living? I can't you avoid say I'm a psychologist. Even the latter might agree as a great

The people assume that I'm a clinical psychologist, which I not say something save a cognitive scientist- has no one has any idea weapon. That is all I think you ve been good for my mental health. Well, that's it. Some people for the first time in my life, I say I've confirmed that Prudential. People, really they I am so I did and discouraging down tried by reading the news that when I come, Whilst the data that you presented that humanity has been improving, it actually is when it'll help middle feel, as despairing were before my children, for myself and for the future Nancy. Ellen woman you're also works more than that. It's not me. It's not only beg your saying its deeper than that for a company reasons. First of all,

you're a credible source and, like the naive optimism, is worse than cynical pessimism. I think, because it's too Brow Jones, too easily damaged, but you're optimism is naive. Its it data based and its well researched, and so you can go in. There is a pessimist like as a powerful pessimist, and you can take all all well look at that. Look at that and look out, and it is not just one or two things: it's enough things so the story, to be a story and you think all well, maybe we're not going to Helen ahead basket quite as fast as we thought we were, and then necessarily at least not necessarily yes, woman had said something button there is it. Is it an implicit message there too, which is perhaps the enlightenment message,

so, which is that, while not only our things getting better, but here beings are the sorts of creatures that could make things better if they chose to and that's the NASA radical message I think gummy one of the things I ve noticed about what people respond positively to in my lectures he's my insistence to them that they could be, they may not be, but they could be powerful forces were good and powerful beyond really in some ways, beyond the limits of their imaginations that human beings, Unbounded, rash. Need.

I'm an enlightened prospective independent of the metaphysics is that we do have the capacity to redress incredibly complicated problems and with good will and caution and a certain degree of intelligence. We can actually make them better, and I think that that's a deeply positive message, especially for young people who be raised on nothing, but a steady diet of disenfranchisement end nihilistic pessimism about the future. Indeed, It has been a source of tension in my own intellectual, autobiography I know that I'm not an optimist about the human condition by ideology or buy back, and I wrote a book called a blank slate Andrey, modern denial of human nature, arguing that were not blank slates that we are equipped by evolution with that

not a lot of motive, some of which are not not so as it is not conducive to you, being white tribal. Isn't like authoritarianism, like my greed, like illusions like soft section, I bet what what did. My worldview is really coming across data, the keenest as much as a surprise to me as to anyone showing that via he's going out, he's got out and prosperity is caught up in it haven't tried to resolve that attention. How could we as a species, burn each other alive and engaging in beta discrimination and genocide. And somehow managed to power. This improvement. Refugee comes from the fact that we have come I'll get psychologically complex. We have

we motives, but we also have some modicum of empathy. Yes of control. We have argued processes that allows to reason we have language that allows us to share our ideas. If we manage to channel those with right institutions- with a commitment to free speech, to democracy, to science, to empirical testing, and then we can. Mobilise the better angels of our nature as ever and and can eat out its of improvement. Despite our self serving com. We'll get you used a religious, our analogy title I mean because I think part of a case that you are making and I would say this is a narrative case to some degree- is that despite the depth of human depravity, which is definitely something that you didn't discussion

Ex laid, although not as intensely as some people have, that good, so to speak, has the capacity to triumph over evil and and sorrow despite the day so both of those and that that is also an unbelievably optimistic message, because I dont believe that you can be credible voice for optimism and and and what would you say, someone who celebrates the human spirit

you're very cognizant of its depths, because otherwise you just not informed you you down with the right enemy. That's right and you have to, I think, value the hard won human institutions and norms that don't actually necessarily come naturally to us, like the rule of law like like free speech, Waken fuelled leasing, organs and empirical data insular have to be incorporated every year, duration, I will not do in such a good job with generation. I sometimes think I'll bet it's because of these it. These games we ve, invented that bring out, are on her side. However, we have been able to overcome our our energy needs. Are creatures. I wonder sometimes to open the way you think about this. I mean you know when I grew up and when you grow up, you know from

the end of world war. Two until let's say nineteen, eighty nine. There real reasons for apocalyptic thinking. In my estimation, in all the. The mass a build up of the thermonuclear arsenal and the constant tension in testing between especially the Soviet Union and the western block, the the times we came so close to nuclear annihilation, I think for several generations and then also in the sixtys, the discovery of human beings, as as, let's say, a planet, transforming for I saw a neck logical level. I think there were the reasons for people to be terrified into a kind of apocalyptic pessimism. And I kind of wonder sometimes if one of the things that you're not battling against, is. What would you say is is

revelation that period of time in some senses over is that that particular pamphlets, God willing, has been. Reduce substantially in probability, and we can now start to think about the future and paused way again, but man, it was forty five years you Know- and Nord County World WAR two which I think would probably should count. It was forty. Our years, where everyone is well being being taught if they put themselves under their desks as elementary school, she has always been and protect them from an atomic blast. And saw coming out about real, that's true, Ninety eight, I am truly was momentous. It was to be. There the cold war and worse threats. We exchange also lead

the decline in the number of proxy wars in Asia, Africa and South Africa, which people don't appreciate, you look about the horrific wars there taking place now, such as in Yemen, Syria might be unprecedented area of warfare, is nothing compared to the seventies and eighties. Were Africa's wings were worthy of our more people than the wars in Iraq. Syria combined and there were rats like ivy young people, war and making seventy three which are next and raise the level of nuclear work, something that has not happened since these really were a perilous times is a part, from the Cold WAR, IRAN and Iraq. I've ever since world war, one which threatened to choke the floor well at present Gulf bringing world economy to heart, and that so many people forget how how awful

pretty. Sixty Saturday's eating more troops are right well, and there was also the fact that, while in a kind in South America. I would say in particular those proxy war is also be Also ideological wars absolutely stifle economic development, both in South America and in Africa, and why is one of the reasons that we ve seen this unparalleled improvement in action? conditions, let's say or its obvious in China, because of their market reforms, but in Africa, is at least in part because their art there is, the coterie of insane soviet dictators dictating economic policy to african leaders? That's absolutely counter productive and path. And so just by removing bad sources of of trouble. Much less

adding anything new in good just by get ridding that source of trouble, the Africans have been able to free themselves from the worst excesses of the most foolish economics the twentieth century, already lessons regarded the manifest itself in the two thousand. That was a nearest each of the others about poverty, makes civil war more likely and vice versa, because warriors has been called development in reverse that nothing is worse, were economy. Then schools have been blown up and people over there, offices and shot and institutions destroyed as quickly as they can be elsewhere gets patient networks, but also if countries are poor and in its true that more The second idea is weak countries, poor baby, it becomes more attractive to joining militias and ship rabbit rebel groups, because government is doing anything for you, a lot of young men. I've had nothing better.

You I'll with time, the wealthiest commanded by the competent government and then, of course, both superpowers would under the insurgency movements that opposed whichever governments Thea, the other superpowers supporting so bright and amplifying the broader political amplifying the problem getting people forget when we'll talk about what a terrible state world is it now we often forget how the cold war was worthy, what we shall be called the third world rate right, wait, widgets, ok, saying select, let me close with this. If it is, if you would be very good conversation them and what what? What are you work,

on at the moment, it's occupy knew that you have hopes for end. What are your general hopes? Let's say for the next three or four years and your careers ascended in a manner that is true, very few people and you have a tremendous blow Impact, I would say all things considered and one that is fine. My concern is overwhelmingly to the good. What's next for you in, and what would you like to see happen in the future for you over them over the next few years? Therefore, for the world, I would simply like to see a push back against authoritarian, popular, listen and momentum. Going back to the forces of humanism Cosmopolitanism globalism, democracy against me,

I give Terry politics primarily of the populace right since they are in power, but also a b b became has left but the renewal of the narrative tat. We if we think but what we all have in common as human beings in our brain power, overcoming our limitations and we can solve problems, I'm a change being big one, and I have my own views on climate change at all its best in your times, at a child's come here a couple days. I'm gonna get you in trouble. Yes, it will normally I'll leave that as no game, ok! Well, I'm looking forward to that. I'm looking forward to see what you think it's a very complex problem. It is very complex. Problem, and I think some of the activists and making it more complex and worse

I don't leave out a little were enigma until people check out that our global, unless a he'd been enlightened, came giving an answer and academics an academic we I've done. I am, I never studies over the years taking off from an interest in our land, he was using the social context. I reaffirm a large part of my career, I studied language but maybe curious about why we ll just were not what we need so much of the time threats I'm sexual come on over between the lines we surely sharing beat around. The Bush gave you that led me to the concept of a common knowledge. In a sense I know something you know something. I know you know it. You know that I know it. I know it. You know that I now tonight we're not cases where we each know something, I'm not so sure that the other guy knows, I think, that's usually powerful in our

social emotional lives and I have ay and going to start writing a book in two years. He's taking your title III is: don't go there. Common knowledge the science, stability, democracy of bridge and Abu. Days outside sounds it sounds stream, interested in one of the things that I have observed, you know is that people people a hierarchy of zones and then the deeper in the hierarchy of value, is embedded the more expensive the actual reality is stabilize the boar, its united under a single goal in the more its brought in. Out of uncertainty, and I think we have rules that are like don't disrupt

Too much someone's map territory with any given utterance, and so we we attend a bit to play on the periphery and you'll like it. It might be too much for you to stand to be outright objected by are rejected by someone actually attracted to you, don't because it casts light on year validity as a acceptable sources of DNA, let's say, but to play a bit and tease Abed. That allow you to accept are carefully encouragingly delivered. Playful rejection without having to go way down the depths of your character. It's like to be more necessary force doctrine, because I think there is. There is. There is a lot of that. Just threat of being rejected.

In addition, we have we divide our social relationships into qualitative, different categories and a sexual relations will use them from a friendship or a workplace relationship is inescapable. Fact were often people are sexually attracted to each other, sometimes when attracted together, but not not vice versa. All too often, in the end, there is something that is inherently threatening about, say. Professional relationship on a friendship is the Saxons here he blurted out, even though paradox, ITALY, any grown up. Note, is going to be sexual attraction. The lot of you

sexual relationships that are not over sexual, so he might now. She might know it, but as long as he doesn't know that she knows that he knows that she knows that he knows it. Then you can work under the fiction. The relationship is hundred percent botanical, a hundred percent professional there's something about learning in general common knowledge, neither side in the night. The other one knows the paying out right. I'm equivocally changes the qualitative nature of their way once it as we say it, sell their it's out there. You can't take it back. The cat is a bad joke. You'd be unlocked he just under two, because the explicit statement imagine that you have implicit motivations and many of them and as implicit motivation state, have a relatively low probability of being manifested. But when you formalised that implicit motivation

speech. Do you suppose you move the probability of enacting it up the hierarchy and therefore pose more of a threat to the other person, Is the big at the speeches somehow closer to action, then leaving some, but I think it's even It's even deeper there man, I don't think it's just serve an avalanche shipped along a scale, Harrison qualitatively different about learning something out there should be heard. I think we sub our relationships are due to different types of subordinate equal sharing How do you know if you can trust exchange? This can take place over different, our resources over money over sex over. I e and you don't know we're very attentive to which one horse

even given prior jugular time each one is it didn't coordination Last year's report, where we, both again in the same salary who, on the same page, but if were yet discrepancy understandings and there can be a mild form. Awkwardness embarrassment in the extreme case shock page Norwegian founded chauvinism, have the problem of dual relationships that are often talked about in professional ethics. You know that it's very close, very difficult to have a unit dimensional relationship with someone, but you are constantly warned ethically not to, for example, of your clinical psychologist, not to make a friend out of your client and you say nothing revolve, bisexual. Absolutely! Nothing is that, yes, exactly you searching things happen between professionals and students, and so am I think, to some degree their inevitable, but dual relationship problem, also

Instead, you end up playing at least two games with different out arms, and so the aims become blurry and the degree of concern. Sure confusion also increases and now not exactly sure why making that explicit, would necessarily make it worse. But it does seem to be associated with. Ah, what would you call it? an unwise complexity. Invocation of the situation, absolutely This is why it is that kind of social, emotional dynamic that I will be writing about it. Imagine I exactly that, paradoxically, well very much looking forward to

being a tent and also what are my dreams by the way out of the way you think about this. I think it would be fun and I suppose this is perhaps an invitation eyes. It would be fun to sit down with you had been Shapiro and have a talk about religion and the enlightenment and the state of the modern world, if you'd ever be interested in doing something like that, not a political discussion in butter, but because I think there is something to be out in a serious way between the enlightenment types, like you and like SAM Harris, for example, because I would put him in the sea while not in the same category buddy. The symbol you haven't, I think we're where, where others lot of overlap and then and then people like satellite, then- and I were- and maybe the union and analysts, for example, who tend to deal.

The historical movement towards increased freedom prosperity as a longer process. This, really, happy bear that needs to be hashed out in its really complicated and might be found to have a conversation about that at some point of view, if you're ever interested in, if you ever have the time I accept the invitation I'll talk to ban, because the UK did. I I think we can have a good conversation, you know and then and scrap it out a bit and see if we could get somewhere because I really liked your books. You know I really liked enlightenment now I regard myself in many ways is as a pro enlightenment figure. I mean I'm very scientifically minded I've done a lot of of empirical research and learned a tremendous amount from it. I soon

we believe that the mastery one science and technology has been a major contributor to the further oneself of human rights. Being an end there's something to be said for the solidity of an objective mature. This view world, but is there is an element there that seems to me to be troublesome. That leads to a kind of nihilism which which, interestingly enough, you happen to be fighting with some of your optimism, which is quite quite nice to see, but I think, there's fertile discussion there too. Two to reconcile maybe to reconcile some of the unnecessary tension between the different streams of thought that have made western culture and world culture. For that matter. The the remark

creation that it actually is, I think, could be fruitful, did all right Is there anything else that you'd like to mention two people at any forthcoming talks? You have a public appearances are you'd you like to draw their attention to or are we are we at the end of a fruitful discussion the problem is, we could just keep going, so where, where to start, I will be I'm another road him off and giving public lectures and discussions. I have one I'm having a pall Krugman next week. It Brown recently, not the next and by the time the surplus circulating in the past. Smiling began my website. I happened, Mr Falconer cables,

any fun to see that there is a public audience for this sort of discussion, name who have gas worth much more than anyone would guess just five years ago the omnipotence of rivals debate absolutely not a reason for optimism, with some very nice talking to you and thank you very much for taking the time and good luck with your your talks and year and your academic endeavours in with your attempts to help people. I understand that there is. Reason to be hopeful now and perhaps even more reason to be helpful in this your and about people, that's a hell of a thing for somebody doesn't think, there's a blank slate, that is your face. Routing me on my pleasure. Talking with you. Ok,

Thank you. Let's stay in touch, he she found this conversation meaningful. He might consider picking up dad's books. Maps of meeting the architecture. Ways knew a bestseller twelve for light an antidote to chaos. Both of these works doubt much deeper into the topics covered in the Jordan, be Petersen, Podcast, see, Jordan, be Petersen, DOT, com for audio a book and text links or pick up the books it your favorite bookseller, really hope you enjoyed this. I asked if you dead, please leave a rating apple podcast comment, a review or share this episode with a friend. Next week's part, gas is going to be a twelve rules for lifelike, reporting from Dad's lecturing in Calgary on July, twenty seventh twenty team at the Jack singer Concert have a wonderful weak, next Sunday follow me on my? U to channel Jordan, be Petersen on Twitter at Jordan, be Petersen on Facebook at Doktor, Jordan B

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