Welcome to the J Bp podcast season for episode, nineteen recorded March nineteen, twenty twenty one, I'm Petersen, this episode features Jordan Petersen and Randal Wallace Randal Wallis is an american screenwriter director producer and songwriter best known for writing the historical drama brave heart which earned him a writers, Geldof America Award for best original screenplay and an Academy award nomination in the same category. He has, since did the man in the iron mask. We were soldiers, Secretariat and Heaven for real Mr Wallace, and dad discussed the power of art, music and story. Randall, in writing, songs the influence biblical stories on his work and thought depressions or face the general development of his career. As a writer and director and his action movie about the Pope, this apathy, this brought you buy relief, factor, belief, Acta is a hundred percent drug free, botanical and fish oil supplement crafted to help the body,

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If you have found the ideas, I discuss interesting and useful, perhaps might consider purchasing my recently released book beyond order. Twelve, more rules for life available from Penguin Random House in print or audio format. You could use the links we provide below or by through Amazon or at your local bookstore. this new book beyond order provoked It's what I hope is a productive and interesting walk through ideas that are both philosophically and sometimes spiritually. Meaningful, as well, was being immediately implementing and practical. Beyond order can be read and understood on its own. but also builds on the concepts than I developed in my previous books, twelve for life, and before that maps of meaning. thanks for listening and in The podcast

I'm pleased today to be able to talk to Mr Randal Wallis, he's an american novelist. Screenwriter director producer And songwriter who came to exceptional prominence above his normal prominence? Let's say by writing the screenplay further his Michael drama, film, brave heart in ninety ninety five, his work on that film earned in the nomination for the Academy award for best original screenplay and a writers Guild of America Award in the same category his sins. directed film, such as the man in the iron mask and ninety. Ninety eight. We were soldiers, two thousand and two secretariat, two thousand

And ten, which I just watched with my wife last night and Heaven is for real, two thousand and fourteen he's also written seven novels colluding the New York Times best seller Pearl harbor. and his founded Hollywood for habit for humanity One of the things I would like to point out to everyone whose watching your listening to begin with his It's really easy to list offer achievements. In a row. Novel screenwriter, director, producer songwriter, but each what's remarkable and worthy of note is that each of those is very difficult and unlikely. So it's it's very hard to be a novelist. You have to be able to write well and then you have to be fortunate and you have to have the right connections and you have to time the market properly and then to repay that seven times is is is quite particular an unlikely feet, but then to combine that with success as screenwriter, which is perhaps, if

anything, even more difficult than writing a novel that successful because so many people have to participate in moving. an idea from its initial inception through the screen writing process, two to four production as a movie and then release its tat, leave be complicated and unlikely affair director impossible producer and songwriter as well, and so the conjunction of all those things, the conjunction of seven rare events, is an extraordinarily where event in one, things that really may be interested in talking talking to Mr Wurtz, Today is very curious about how he now, is that what what is how is life has been set up so that that became possible? So so welcome? And thank you very much for agreeing to talk with me Thank you your name, absolutely thrill to be with you. Thank you. Let me

start by asking you what what are you working on now everyone's locked down with covert than what? What what year what are your plans for now in the future about two years ago, because I'm a workaholic, the the the Islamic in my family s work a and an eye. I I had that burden it. It produces a lot of help. in advantage sometimes, but it's also on a burden. and about two years ago I decided to take a sabbatical, the first one in my life and go to Rome for five weeks, I wanted to see what it was like to to be in a place long enough lived in Paris for a while, but working on a film witches eighteen hour days for months on end in lived on a couple of different visited, a number of foreign countries, but

I wanted to be in a place with some room was time to reflect. and get away, and I thought long would be perfect and we went wrong and I have three sons and at one time or another, all three were there but We were sitting together on the Piazza Nirvana. and on? looking at us fountain Inn and I said to one of my sons: wouldn't it be cool if the Pope could they through some secret tunnels that we know are, and the Vatican and get out and walk around Rome is a normal citizen, and in one of my other son, said yeah. Maybe kick ass, then by others and said you mean that this bad man and I will wait a second,

and suddenly an idea was born and out of the kind of fun exchange. Friends who were members of Opus Dei leave the Ultra Orthodox Catholic Organization in and they have made Gus through the Vatican introduced us to the swiss guards, and I began to think about profound and experience it is that a man would be would gained by his church to be the Holy Father, the representative of God, honour. What kind of crushing weight. Would that be like of humility would require. An and a story began to spin its way into into my life. I have a friend who's, a devout Catholic and he he won't take communion because he can't make proof

contrition, I'm not a Catholic. By the way I grew up a bad, but he can. You cannot fulfil the requirements to take communion, because he can't firstly, say he's gonna refuse to stop, living in sand with a woman ease with who has a child with so he's cut off from union and and no matter how much I say to him about the protestant view of none of us deserve gods, love. Were were saved only by grace it it doesn't, it doesn't penetrate his his sense of obligation and requirement and an insufficiency to take communion. began to think about what If you had a pope who is absolutely committed to the reformation of the church, Betty

believed that, maybe God was not gonna bless his efforts on this. He, became a better man and to become a better man. He had to own his own sins and and his deepest san. His group, you're, still retain, to a young woman who was the child of one of the swiss guards who who try to protect the Pope's and John Paul they. The second was shot four times in the stomach, in that and square other parts of diet, their mysterious circumstances, and the idea that these two people together on this, when assassin storm the Vatican to kill the Pope and they have to travel with through the bowels of the Vatican weather, running there secrets and their darkest spheres and faith that, smells like the kind of movie I want to do, and for the

first time in my career I fill comfort. Bull and saying to people who are We have the financial means to invest in movies that I was here owing to let them investor is one of my son said I could never let friends invest in movies because it would. Strong me a sense of responsibility to get their money back to them. But in this I have every confidence that this was Kind of movie. The audience throughout the world really wants to see the kind of theme that fourteen to everyone that it would be. It would be there the classic than we want Wanna hit movie that really met something. and that's the movie on preparing now, when shoot and Roman in September An incredible team assembled still assembling other people to do it, but that's That's what's right on my site right now,

in a thousand years that isn't a plot that I would have guessed Jordan. Here's another thing that that pertains in its another. The reasons. So in rich to buy. By your experience by your journey, which I feel is is just starting in it. That way! you start to direct theirs. the metaphor for me: I, like your crawling into a pipe and that Type is eighteen month, long and you're going Crawl through slow and sometimes even sewage and there's no turning around and it It's all on your shoulders. Then you have to keep going and is, day connected with what I need to stay connected with to survive, which begin with my family,

strangely difficult, the the you're in a war urine you're in a battle and I'm up done number of movies about fighting about men who led other other men in battle its consuming. It's all can send me General more. The man that we were soldiers was about now Gibson portrayed em, he he led the AIR Cavalry and the largest battle in Vietnam and he loved his family profoundly, but from them when he left for building Georgia to go to Vietnam till the day he returned more than a year later, he never wrote a single letter accept To one daughter he wrote He wrote her letter back because she had written him but other, namely never called his wife and he loved his wife with em every fibre of his being, but he felt he had to keep every second thoughts.

Somehow I kept his man alive and In that sense of how. responsibility can can crush us. Is this profound for me? Well, I've suggested people quite constantly and and generally it's been suggestion that people take to heart that This sustaining meaning in life is to be found through the adoption of responsibility, but that is the flip side of it is that there is always the possibility that you pile on too much and that you don't mind to move forward under the load and. That's a danger and I've seen people who are I wanted, fall prey to that. Talented and hard working fall prey to that end. It Definitely, a great advantage to be surrounded by people that love you and to have a family, and all of that so that you can take some comfort when you have the opportune

to do that, so that, in that screenplay that you're describing that's going to be. You said that then start filming in the fall, assuming that we defeat covered in all of that. Yes, and so what What drew to the idea in some sense of putting the pope in what sounds like an action movie we now have a friend who writes action novels and he's quite interested in using. all of them, elements plot, development in particular, but also character, development that our part of mass, entertainment in in the thriller genre, which is, very close to the superhero genre supposed to enjoy The gate. thoughtful matters in depth to marry. What's entertaining and gripping, which always has an architectural element? Otherwise it wouldn't be entertaining and gripping to just

thing that serious and I said, and so it sounds like there's something like that. Why could see that thread running through all of your work that the marriage mass attraction, which is certainly necessary for the success of a movie, but also the exploration of deeper themes and ethical themes Listen, I I feel that one without the other is pale. an abstract discussion of values is Interesting to me, intellectually but I want to know how to find in action. And inaction movie. no one learns anything and no one's required to to grow and sacrifice is empty I've been asked why I make war movies and I always say I don't make love stories

I want to know what you love enough to sacrifice your wife or, if necessary, It's funny Jordan in high school all the things you know when, when the seniors, in least in America S and in other places, but their voted, different, superlatives and. I was voted most responsible, the the least sexy, title you could possibly have. I I would say to a woman, I was dating bad debt school. I was. but in those responsible and she laughed and said I was about it best legs another will maybe that's the way it works. The most responsible gospel cigarette, the the girl with the best legs, but but for me it's like well,

and I'm sorry. This is sort of scattered but Whenever I am listening to you I'll find unexpected treasures, you'll, say something in your in your lectures that will come me too. to see some aspect of my life I hadn't interpreted fully. And one for me was when I was in high school I was younger than most of my classmates and I saw a lot of bullying and I experienced some. And when I went to college and there'd be instance like linebacker from the football team would get drunken pledge some some. scholarly, stood another face and crushed his jaw, and I decided I was gonna really learned to fight, and I studied karate and I became a karate teacher and I once and championships

I tried it and I was also in a religion, major and I went to seminary and I but myself through seminary teaching karate in that woman, People laugh, then they think it's an anomaly, but I'd say: will we, We are talking about nature. As you know, a moral choice if you make a choice because you're afraid to make the other choice, it's not a moral choice. Now I didn't know much about nature. When I was in college I'd. I study the german thinker who didn't know how to spell, as last name what's that got to do it, but but was that way. For me, I thought if I walk away from a fine, I won Want to know is much ass. I could now that it's, because I'm being a cowardice because I'm choosing to walk away there, then, I'm capable of

hurting someone and if I, have to fight, I want to be capable of doing and that to me all ties in with the notion of the plexus of the choice and inward were entertained and a movie were captivated. I should say more by by seeing the the connection between action and meaning. Well, meaning grounds out inaction, write something isn't meaningful as far as I can tell, unless it has implications for action, yes and or or the alternative visit has implications for perception, because something meaningful can change the way you look at something, but the count acquaints of that is that the framework within which you act is going to change Grounds out inaction, and, and I've always been what fascinated, I suppose, by the the parallelism between nature and Dostoevsky, because they

thought, along very similar lines and but Dostoevsky has the advantage over needs in some sense, because He can embody his philosophy and characters and that actually allows him to go into more. Depth, I would say the nature, which is really saying something because need you will went as far down in somewhat ways is anyone. I've ever had the misfortune or pleasure to have read but and and in its so interesting how it works and in in the brothers chromosomes dossier, keep pits Ivan against Alyosha and Ivan is handsome and debonair and his his that, with a warrior type that you just described he's very atheistic, and he can put up a pretty good argument. You know he tortures his brother, whose monastic novitiate with stuff

worries of children locked in outhouses overnight in freezing to death. They were punished by their parents, which dusty ass. They took from a newspaper and said I don't I can possibly imagine how there could be a God who is omniscient and and had all the other classic attributes of God who could create a universe where that was allowed to happen even once and Ivan? It? Cannot debate Alyosha consistently, but now we his character is such that he wins the argument. He loses all the battles in some sense, but wins the war and that something you can really portray when close your ideas in characters or or when the characters even more. I think to the point is when the characters are so profound that their acting out ideas that you couldn't yet make explicit that is one of the things that the narrative does is that it enables us to play out ideas that were not yet intelligent enough to understand, and sometimes the guy,

between the narrative representation in the explicit understanding can be thousands and thousands of years, because we're still unwrapping what we're so we still unwrapping the Bible. Worse, we're unwrapping were still unwrapping Shakespeare, there's more there. Then we can then weaken. Understand explicitly. And so anything that uses character has not tremendous advantage and then also there is also this strange ability that some People have in spades too create fictional worlds that are of unbelievable profundity in power, and I mean the greater example of that, the last thirty years in terms of sheer imaginative powers, gotta be J K rolling in there potter series which there are good the imagination of the entire planet, furred for a decade and produced untold wealth and spread literacy everywhere as well she had an and on our right markedly creative imagination and something quite mysterious.

So you're you're fortunate enough to work at the marriage of ideas and and and drama Yes- and you know it's- it's really interesting when, when you spoken about Dostoevsky in and others, in some of your lectures. I am fascinated by him and all the Russians are studied russian for four years in college agenda and read some of these. In the original, my Russian wasn't, fluid not for me to really I mean I had a gliding through them, but Tolstoy Chow Gus check of who was a doctor, a medical doctor, as well as a writer so that that car, go once of a commitment, not just in terms of literature, but it did. He used his profession as Doktor to also inform him, as a writer, he famously said medicine is my

My wife and literature is my mistress and when, tar of one. I spend time with the other and and Pushkin who would would write stories that they were full of thought, but the story itself bigger than any thought he could put around it was it was more resonant. It carried more by the way when I listened to your your biblical series, it ask me to decide to read: through the whole Bible and just Georgia finish, I groped southern bad. So ever since, could read I've read the Bible, virtually every day of my life? but I'd never read the Bible start to finish. Where some books it even when I was religion major at university, I would

get to some, the books and Gulf. I can't stay awake for this book, I just got a move on. But when you really go through it and you see the the old testament as this, this incredible saga. Other people try defined the rules that DEC, at them together as a people who felt If you just a these rules, then it's gonna end badly for us all and, the greatest, the greatest violation is to erect alters to other guy right. That's where Sidle CM, that's the worst and then along comes Jesus, who is completely state in all other old testament mean he is his profound. And in his knowledge of it, and he loses and does and said these things

It's not like it's a philosophy. It's a narrative, a narrative which studied a great deal, and I believe is is largely historical, where I should say significantly historical I believe these things did happen, and then you have Saint Paul, whose trying to make sense of what happened and in and it's mine blowing to me smile going to to read it. as a whole and put it into perspective in that having ever but my life- what's mine, blowing abounded in in part and I try to speak of the Bible not from the Spect of other committed believer- and I have my reasons for that- I guess, its partly because I want to constant it on. what everyone can come to see as true, I suppose, perhaps that's it.

But it is remarkable that the Bible does in fact make a coherent narrative. Because we don't understand that it was said it was written by a very diverse range of people over a span of time that we can That's not even imagine its very difficult to tell how old is the oldest stories in Genesis. Particular. Are there that the the story of the fall and of Adam and Eve and and can enable they bear all home. of a previous oral tradition that, would have existed. In relatively unchanged, form tens of thousands of years and perhaps even longer than that, and so there unbelievably ancient and then part obviously our newer and the written hearts are obviously newer than any tentative oral tradition, but you have a you have the bare minimum, an unbelievably deep psychological, develop document that Weaves itself,

over centuries into a coherent story, and Northrop fry I would say, he's a canadian literary plant critic has did more for me than any other particular thinker to help me understand. The nature of the narrative cause fraught fry course. He did the same thing: I'm doing? The same thing that he did Cassie preceded me out the University of Toronto. He Assess the Bible as a work of literature, as a narrative and. That to me was never any generation because narrative a powerful narrative new talk about this. When you talk about brave heart, for example, because there is that much known about William Wallace historically, but you crass, you crafted a narrative, that's that true enough, let's say to be unbelievably attractive to people and to motivate them very deeply, because it's an affecting movie well and if it wasn't, it wouldn't have been so popular

and so there is, if there is a truth, a narrative that I think is even deeper than historical truth. A true like a truly profound narrative truth is like, the average of a whole variety of historical truth, and so it the essence of historical truth So it is even more true than his than than what we would consider say. I witness history, because I witness history is just it's one battle. You know and there is mainly an epic theme in that battle, but then imagine that you could look at a thousand battles and you could and you extract out from that what was canonical about heroic victory across all one thousand battles. You see something like that happening in the old testament and the narrative the to thread is really quite deep. There, Societies emerge formulate same ass, the path we're

false idols collapse run then the same thing happens again in the collapse happens in the collapse happens because people become too pride for the kings in particular, they do listen to the voice of conscience. They apply a prophetic voice arises and says: you're, wandering off the tried and true path and you're going to be punished terribly for that in general speaking, the kings ignore that an catastrophe breaks free and you see, and an old testament particular there's the promise of the altar stayed in some sense. There's utopian promises that run through the search for the promised land. Then so, strangely, you see that transformed into something: that's not really political in the new testament. You see that The promised land becomes the nature of experience as a consequence of a particular form of moral being and and then

Perhaps that has political implications because people who acted like that would produce a particular state, but it's no longer it's It is no longer the dream of establishing the state that war. Solve all problems it it's psychologist and it's it's unbelievably profound and its I think you can drive all of that from from the biblical writings without. Even starting to move onto classically religious territory, and ITALY and then does beg. The question, of course is what does all that wisdom point too? In the final analysis- and that is when the question start to become religious yeah, will join it. That's that's the port to me that it takes it as a whole hold different realm issue. As you say, there's a quick, from Mary Oliver that a friend shared with me recently, it's up keep some room.

in your heart for the unimaginable and I thought and that in great story in any or any great piece of art that surprise as is the central currency of its power there. an element of if you will of revelation, if you will- and I think it was, all till I come not sure who said that religion is me, wait, a God and, as always, erroneous but revelation is gone, wait a man, maybe it's CALL Barton God's wait a man in his always perfect. Well, there's There's a regulatory aspect to any great story. when you're telling someone story. They didn't see coming what just happened. that's what makes them awake. That's stabs them broad awake. and brave heart. So many people said to me it was it was when

the woman that William Wallace Laws when her throw, His cup when suddenly they knew they were not in a tip. watch a movie even too the very end of of brave heart. there would have been many people and Hollywood and were who thought well there This movie needs the end with his friend swinging, Anon, vines and saving and where we can enter an expensive Oracle, Epic movie with a guy the headed and just and bowed, but that was where it had to end for me. But but how do we get there and what it says: surprise: eyes to me and surprised the ADI to end and that I think, is it becomes resolute. I was doing on a chair,

the screening of brave heart a few years ago, for the first time in oh, decades. to sit in a theater and actually see the movie. screened, not television but projected in It is for doing it for a charity in Austin, Texas and at the end of the movie I locked up under the sun, Age to do a q and I and the the person who stood up was a young woman in the front row- nineteen years old ship, so she wasn't born when for it had come out, and I was surprised that she stood up first and she said Mister Waller. I don't have a question. I just want to tell you something my feet say died six months ago. before he died. He told me wanted me to watch brave heart, so I wouldn't.

Stand away. He loved me and I did not stop I I couldn't go on for several minutes on it. It shocked me. It moved me. It surprised me, You said that you write love stories and I guess she put her finger on that day, yeah profoundly in the end, the idea that that, men walked to be courageous, want to be willing to sacrifice themselves for, what's worth sacrificing for and women, want a man like that. where women Warner and they they want to be participants in that story. In that same journey for themselves in

In to me, it's narrative can give you that more than any abstract explanation of it. I don't mean to do. There is a lot to unpack in that I want to go back to your Discussion of surprise, I mean. Among people who assess information theory, there is a strong association between something that's informative and something that surprising. If you can predict that technically making it doesnt contain any information. and so information always comes in the form of surprise. Technically speaking, and we are wired, to attend to what's informative, because that's what updates and teaches us- and so then. You, you said revelation, comes in the form of surprise, and I would say that virtually the case by definition, isn't it because imagine that your viewing this narrative through a particular lens, you're, Irina, you're, gonna call,

native perceptual structure, a frame of reference that area to track all the actions and to make sense of them into make predictions and if something Spected happens? That means that you learned. Tat frame of reference is no longer applicable to the current circumstances, so what that really does mean is that some transcendent at me. From the perspective of that. Current frame of reference has in fact occurred because so that's a mini miracle in some sense right, because nuth miracle is something that doesn't obey the laws that your currently following that at that that's one way of thinking about it and so a rebel. A surprising revelation is a mini miracle, and maybe it's because of that, it's it. It's what reach reminiscent of the active the miraculous generally speaking, but I would also say the narrative does something else if its profound to it doesn't just surprise you it also. It also

gives you a new frame of reference instantly. Within, which that surprise now makes sense. and if it doesn't then you're left unsatisfied by the movie, you think on a I've seen that often in particularly in movies, it doesn't seem to happen quite so much novels where the director and the writer will throw of whole variety of things up in the air, and you have it's really compelling and then about three quarters of the way through the movie. You think It'll be really something if all of that gets tied together and then it doesn't right. yourselves flat it. Doesn't it doesnt end in a manner that that's that that does just This too, what's been set up, so Then you know. That's that's. that's a classic narrative structure, right, there's, there's a stable state to begin with and then something that disrupted and throw everything into a state of chaos temporarily and then establishment of a new state and- and

story definitely does that forests and guides us through that and and shows us that, where the thing that does that is well well, I you take it Agatha, Christie, movie or or story They'll be all these clues and then then her your parole or- we have a term and screen writing. We call it Irving. The explain her will show by the end of the movie to to swaying everything and then it off its to get in and the Sherlock Holmes movies love and be that way too. To me they become more less fun, then the fine is when you don't yet know the answers, but once its explain it's no. It no longer has any magic. For me, an example would be when I was in college- and I was the singer songwriter and I worked with a friend who was a magician. And we would entertain at different gather

his, and he was grey, its lighted hand, of sleight of hand with cords. It could do a trick right in front of your face with cards and you'd, be God smacked in and he would show me how he was doing it and all of a sudden I go out, that's just so simple, and how could I miss that and then he would do the same trick to some one else, and I would be watching the trick and I would think, oh I blew it hee, hee, hee slept he showed them. They can see how it's done and they were gobs Matt. They didn't understand how it was done, so they were amazed but That to me is a difference about story, like you say the Agatha Christie, or are they about a whole bunch of ports and they they know come together a great story. It's one that your left

it's it's vibrating in you and you can't fully explain it you just know what happened. I hate to keep referencing braver, but but. I wanted to make a movie, and it was my First movie. I wanted to make a movie that would have. people walk out of the theatres the way I walked out of theatres at different times in my life and would say model I will never be the same after what I just experienced there I mean that that's always been what I was look for in that happened with brave out. I had a huge, tough Scott I mean a burly brawling head budding sky, come up to me to scrutiny of bravery and look at me with tears in his eyes and say I will never forget that not ever in and I think of the ghost story, like Tolstoy Road, I'll call. The wood felling are the

would felling party in it about some some russian soldiers who were fighting, I believe they were fighting afghan muslim jobs in Azerbaijan or in the mountains, but They d been in this cold forbidding placed for a long long time they ve seen all sorts of death And they ve gone out to to cut wood loaded, firewood motor into a wagon and a sniper, one of them in the leg and his its amid the body in these bleeding to death, and he knows he's dying and they load him on the wood wagon to carry him back while he still alive, but he grabbed lieutenant by the collar and says their letters from my wife and my boot take them and send them back to my wife's social, have them and the officers Algeria will, but the dying man nosey want.

because he seen many men die and just pitched into shallow graves and there's just so much death. So we there's, no take them all and still alive, and then I know you'll do it so it also gives the order and they strip off the man's boot and cut through is his had and unwrapped the rappings around his leg, that he's done keep warm and there are the letters, but what officer seas for the first time in months and months. Maybe years is the best flash of a man's leg is white sunless. In its that that remind him that this is a human being and Also he says he was struck with the terrible dread of the loss of life it in and I thought, even among us, those Jeanne. When I read that it, this is what an artist does you you hold up to us when we ve become

inured immune to the to certain things like watch and women's rights. One time its many skirts another time. It's no brawls, another time it's bear amid drifts, another time it's something else, but you used to something. So nothing nothing. It makes you notice. And the artist looks for will. Why can I do that will make people notice to say look here. see what you see what's there rather than what you remember yes, So there is an interplay with ok there's there is Europe section in what you're looking at what you expect like the magic trick. If your expect one thing and you don't see it or or now you know the trick. So now you perceive that's one pulled up The other part of it is ok now I have experienced perceived something How do I make sense of that? The thing that everything is

Working on the story for the resurrection which I've studied since well, to tell us school other the resurrection fascinated me more than anything else in part because is its anti right would say. If you, if you don't think the resurrection, is preposterous. You're missing the point, the the the point, is that this is beyond anything. You could imagine the you said in a few weeks listen to your podcast. Now I believe that with it Brian I think its Canadian makes the icons Jonathan Paschal. Oh my blowing yeah, that's great the conversation, yes in in India, having said that that there is this, outside of what what you can imagine the It is going on, and you said yes, you would have.

You would never You would never make this up she is here he is make up this Jesus story? I even believe that part of the problem with marxist theory that religion is the orbit of the masses, it's like ok, fair enough. I get it and and and it's actually a reasonably intelligent critique, you could say: well, if you wanted to enslave people and and oppress them, then you could invent a story and you could use that as a manipulative technique. But then you use. It seems to me that you want a story that what sort of maximally fantasy like an attractive and so then you're stuck with well invent Hell, for example, then you can say. Well, that's where you put your enemies. You know so that's kind of convenient, but if you take Medieval experience seriously quite obvious,

the philosopher in in Canada, Taylor, who wrote a wrote about this in a book called sources of the south. Mediaeval. People took the idea of hell extremely seriously and tortured themselves with it. Believe that the fruits of immortality were infinite. A terrible Well, that isn't something that that you got that you that you use as a childish defence against the world. Fear of hell is actually more intense, I would say in some sense than fear of death, I believe that I think there are things that are for, if you, if the thing, your most afraid of his death, you haven't been very afraid. Because there are things that are far more terrifying, the death and certainly hell, is among those- and I suppose that's the place that Erie eternally tortured for for your own immorality me perhaps even defined by your own conscience. Anyway, you wouldn't invent that as some

attractive to the masses and and there's much of of religious thinking, that's like that. It it doesn't have the aspect of there's too much burden in it for it to be pure escape is fantasy, there is too much and there's too much about it. That's incomprehensible for it to be like what would consider a conspiratorial machination nod doesn't it's not a hypothesis that fits the doubt at well, it all right, well, it's a limit case. Also in some sense, like you talked earlier about, you said something about Parker you know it. Well, Don't take the idea of sacrifice very seriously idle the development of the idea of sacrifice in the old testament and one of them I've come to realise is that. one of the great human discoveries was actually that of sacrifice, because it was the discovery of the facts,

that you could modify. The presence of the future was different. So it signals the discovery of the future by humanity. The idea of sacrifice- because you become consciously aware perhaps after acting it out, for God only knows how long that you can give up something that you're deeply committed to in the present something of extreme value and obtain something of even more value in the future and that's the discovery of an entire dimension, the temporal dimension. It's it's! It's a cataclysmic discovery, it's on the same order as the emergence of self consciousness, and so and then the and then mysteries emerge that, while some sacrifices work better than others well, why The reaction of being to sacrifice see, to be reflective of the nature of being, and that's that that's in ITALY the case some sacrifices work in some, don't just like some games or play, and some aren't And end so sacrifice has value while there

the question starts to become well, what's the highest value that use it should sacrifice for and what is the ultimate sacrifice? What you can up, something that you own. You can give up something that you love. You can die for something or you can sacrifice your entire life to it. And it seems to me that in some sense, the ladder the last of those is the ultimate sacrifice to to give your entire life for the sake of, highest ideal and that is the idea of humanity, and then that is the ideal of humanity, and that is what everyone admires and that's what we all look forward stories. That's what compels us. You said bullets the attract, it's the basis of romantic attraction, and I believe that to be the case that associated with generosity right to share the fruits of your sacrifice. And the question arises well, what is the ultimate sacrifice and what would be the consequences of that and that's obviously, what's being

investigative, let's say in our They just thinking and in the new testament, is no doubt that that's that's being investigated. Is there a cosmic significance to the idea of sacrifice in in a night? I without completely, and I believe that that's it What is it play when you're making the sacrifice? There's this other element of of faith in it, the person making the sacrifice is instead of just being a negotiation, central to the sacrifice, it seems to me, is a transforming commitment that the person is being transformed and and He is giving is transforming as one of the most common we quoted lines from brave heart Is every man dies? Not every man really lives. and I didn't oh by the way. It's God be with

the other another line from big our bit. Besides this, the scream of freedom that day, people do that comes from the film, but Is they may take our lives but they'll? Never take our freedom in. that food is on the wall of the United States, AIR Force Academy, but under it is the name William Wallace seller, William Wallace, never said that. Keep going to write the english department there and say listen get but the, but the where that quote came from Was me thinking, ok is, ego, is it pride? Is it stubbornness there? keeps William Wallace in a dungeon refusing to to submit to the king. refusing to asked the king for mercy and maybe time in his life, so he can survive a while longer and the queen, the future queen- comes to him without offer and then she social dialogue will be terrible

after he has said? If I, met to him. If I cry for mercy than everything that is me is dead already and she says you'll die, it'll, be awful an eye, thinking wall. What can he answer to that? and that was every man. Does not every man really lives and in it, It became that ended Thinking of say: Jesus had Golgotha that, if you took snapshot again, Gaza, on the day, Jesus was crucified, and you said who is that? Victor in this picture, you probably wouldn't be inclined to say the guy on the Middle Cross. But you might, if you stare picture long enough new, you actually might see Human beings may recognize. That that this one here

in this way was doing something. Beyond all understanding to me, writing a story, isn't just me going what will surprise the audience? It's I'm being surprised by the story. Is it's coming through to me the most notable part of that and brave heart was reach the end of the story, and then I can see this clearly now the other was more than twenty five years ago the acts is falling toward William Wallace S. Throat and I wrote that on the page, and then I thought well, we can't see the axe. Contact Throwed and several his head. What see now, and then I thought well what about it? get this from the point of view of him when he knows he has free actions of a second to live. What would he looked for

but where would he turned his eyes? Would you look at the axe? What would you do and he would know that his friends were there. So I wrote in the lab. asked instead of his life, we must He turned his eyes to his friends we're Stephen and Hamish. And I did not know Jordan until that instant there. Air between them was her. the wife he had lost- and I wept And I had no sense that anybody else was gonna relate to that story. I have a friend, I'm Jack, Bernstein comedy rider. He wrote a centre of the original Weissmann terror and and Jack is different from me. In almost every week If you put our traits on paper, word is polar opposite an he is the one I I always taken her first drafts too and say I know this is a mass, but is there anything here

he read brave heart and we sat down to her breakfast in for him to give me his notes? And he said this is the best thing of yours. I've ever read and in was completely one side I had. Had no sense that anymore We would like it particularly him, add any value but the story, Prized me and I think, therefore, that regulatory quality was love. I think it happens in music. What would make music magical. It's not that it's what we if it's just same, be the same monotony. The same court changes we ve heard the same lyrics. We ve heard it. It doesn't openness up at all when it so when it just enough different, that we noticed the difference and are drawn into now. If it's two different in a way I was in school and took me-

classes in their telling us about a tonal this and that an abstract it had. It had no wife no hard at all. But when I listen to Beethoven, I conscious feel d feel the swelling of his heart. And come in in here hundreds of years later, yes, what something great and you follow it and then there's a move. of genius, and out of that greatness comes something that even greater, and you saw yours, oh satisfied by that, because you can see what greater emerged from what great. But you can also see that. That's characteristic of humanity, participating in that. Yes, emergence of what's better in this surprising manner, one of your new rules is- is too take a room and make it beautiful, and I love that I love rule. I mean

that it seems so simple, but it that is one of the richest ones. For me, I had my favorite chapter of all the evolved, a both books, I would say I'm happiest without one well I had an incident. A few years ago, and I gotta an infection Mercer and was misdiagnose stand, a doctor, a friend The end of my doctor gave me to medicine which actually caused it to. In flame, even more and and a week later I was at the man, a clinic and they were discussing amputation of my right hand. You write about that in in this. Yes, yes, during the brave heart life this is not a biography or partly in autobiography. Yes,

I was. I was trying to make sense of of that. Experience for me in one way. I did was to say I don't we just have a hand and do hand exercises. I want to celebrate, having hands and I decided I would learn to play. The piano may learn to really play the piano and I went out and made a kind of sacrifice in kind of a crazy thing. I bought a family a spear way way beyond. You think I deserve or my playing merits, but having that instrument I deal with the suit when I went on tour type. I spent like eight thousand dollars on a suit, and it was more money than I ever spent on a car like you know, I was just it was horrified by it, but I thought well, I'm going to put everything I have into this, and we ask start with this

did you find the it was well worth it in exact infinitely worse it no doubt about it and in kind of goes with with one of the very first rules about you know what your shoulders back in your chest out, and it's like you, you, when you, when you dress well. a different person you want, I felt I owed it to my audience, was like, as they were, going to come and see me, I was going to do everything I possibly could to set the stage properly. Yes and and it and you know it Those little gestures matter were there not just little gestures, but so it there. That was it. That was a mark of faith. In some sense it It certainly violated my sense of fiscal propriety ripe and no one I wasn't sure how I could justify it. I guess partly the justification would be if the lectures we're good enough. You know, but I was at least moving in that direction.

and, like I said, I never regretted it at all. It was exactly the right thing to do, but little we need to do it for yourself. It's I think it's easier to do it for one in four yourself in it it it calls to mind the the new testament ass, the incident of the woman breaking Nay the the box of ointments in an Jesus his feet to say This will be remembered always, and you always had the poor, and you can always help the poor This is something that will last thought of it as a very strange story that one isn't it meets. One you link would have been added to doubt long ago. Yes, nab salute every day the The editors would have said nano. Maybe this is not not one, we should have it when I was in Germany, I was in Germany the first time on those about

twenty six than I was in a really rough time of life had law. The job. I was very much lost an I thought, I'd rather spend my last dollars to go to Europe, then the cid alarm and worry so I'd the trip alone to Europe and I went to see one thing in the sun the castle that mad cow King Ludwig, the second had built in Bavaria and what I learned there was that it had nothing to do with the architecture of the day, the the the trends the principles of of a sensible building it was kind of crazy indulgence based on his love of opera Grand romantic just and it nearly bankrupted the treasure we do it, but

most from day one. It became a huge financial success. Will that's one of the things that so standing about Europe? Is that. There isn't anything, that's more valuable than beauty, and I mean I mean that from the cold, hearted, conservative, capitalist perspective, its stunning. How valuable beauty is iqs valuable artifacts in the world are paintings Y know. It's a no excepting things like chips to make or factories to make chips, but single artifacts paintings are worth hundred honey, Fifty million dollars at the at the upper end ancient manuscripts that that are then our works of timeless art, It looks like an investment in beauty is one that pays off as long as the remains in existence

mean I dont know how much everything a new europe- that's beautiful cost, but it was plenty, but it paid back in spades and is only going to become increasingly more valuable as the past becomes more and more scarce Which is happening very very rapidly, yes, in these countries have more tourists than people yes and it's all a consequence of art and beauty. in wrong there, something like a hundred fifty cathedrals. If you, if you went to, It's is enough that if you went to three or four a day and a month, you couldn't visit them all, And everyone you walk in, takes you to a different place, which is exactly as they they were intended. Do I thought you're you're podcast, with Juliet Falco from oh great, was, fascinating. Did you had the interplay?

tween, the writing in and the this Will the death of the thought that then connected with? turn this into, sure visual visual image I mean that's hard: it's hard for me when I have written a character to accept I'm an actor as being character They say that David lean when he was directing Doctor Zhivago, didn't stay in the same hotel there's some of his actors because you Julie Christie was is Laura and Doctor Zhivago. He didn't want to see her with a martini in her hand, smoking a cigarette he hit he wanted to today like the movie seeing her as this pristine, Take the love this this woman, the subject of love

and then I think, it's hard for the. Was vastly here the process of the way you together to create Those images- and I thought the images were stunning and really resonate for you know when you're reading it. You look forward to seeing the next illustration too. Tucci you up further for the next chapter. You see it and then, as you reading, your son turning to understand the image more than that incredibly rich yeah. Well, I was hoping- and I think it happened that adds another dimension. You know you have the explicit rules let's say: that's the explicit philosophy and then you have the implicit philosophy, which is the story, but then you have something that even more implicit, which is the image and the story is richer than the explicit rule and the image is richer than the story, but the images and is clear- and neither is the story right so you

you move from focused clarity, but a rather narrow representation to watch strongly brought an all encompassing, and you lose something when you move either direction right, but having all of it at the same time, while it gives you the advantages of all three kinds of representation. Yes that to me leads us back to the to the power and the residents of art that that any peace painting, a piece of music, a movie, the story. resonates through through all of it I wonder when I was a child. My arm, my father was extreme lay frugal, but he loved music and he got. I guess you got a deal Oh no one of the first stereo sets a huge thing. It speakers. Separate and how to turn table and

bought a collection of classical records because they were basically giving away. Nobody wanted it in Memphis, Tennessee and and he bought those records all men in one one side and one lp was the eighteen twelve overture- and I turn around and turn the bottom up as loud Joe. My mother would scream at me and and be caught up in there. I could see the battle I could see the army is moving. I could feel the winter I could hear the we are coming in. the cannons are going and the Russians are fighting back in it had dimensions beyond the sun, all things of of of notes and and what was audible, and I think that that that that's, a big part of the uniqueness of your work. There is one thing I know: I'm sorry. This sounds like a fan club, but but when I heard you

speaking in the last several podcast here and and read the leave the practice of your your new book and two to look at all you. Then through now you ve been through lately it It really spoke to me about. Why is choir. If you're gonna go, do something different you're gonna bring in if you just your mouth shut about, anything outside of, Your own area, of course, knew were united. What are you were you were speaking about we want. It didn't feel like it was outside your your own area to say: wait. A second. You're asking me to to violate some things that I are too, Or violations you couldn't then a good boy and sat in your seat. I It has been a good boy and

and try to write, An action adventure movie set in the present day and not write something, crazy, like something somebody that was was beheaded in disempowered seven hundred years ago, or this upcoming movie about it's gotta said some people's on fire. No doubt, and I as parliament will, I hope it's it's important enough to do their bit. You your combining you're, saying it every is relevant that what this loss of furs, we're talking about what he's artist repainting, would He's musicians are doing what films there are doing is all something this he's trying to get us that way. No, that's really, cathedral represents you know, it's it's it's an expression in stone of this yearning to to bring

material world into harmony. With this spirit, Thing like that, and that's what music does as well There's this this proclivity within us to strive upward, and The kid you mean the cathedrals there, absolutely amazing. These lattice, like pictures of stone, there's something but the harmonious injured, play of shadow and light? That's key to it is well it's it's like the opening up of dark matter to the light it pours, that's all embodied in the architecture and and and I I can't say, and neither can anyone else what that ultimately represents and then to bring music into that space and and tradition appointing upward to something too to the direction that we're supposed to go. It's it's terrible to see these buildings empty out. I mean thank God that their being preserved in some sense by the tourist who come there, driven by a sense of all, but we

we can't inhabit them any more. The way that we used to and that's that's a terrible thing it. It means there is a kind of ideal that we there were no longer we're not pursuing perhaps were no longer pursuing it. It seems like a catastrophe to me. No one really knows how to revitalize it, though, unfortunately, so whether one the promise me one when I was in Paris working on man and the iron mask, I would want on a Sunday morning to to you're, a mass, was very difficult to find well for one thing in bad as we would church started. Eleven o clock on a Sunday morning in masses are like that, but go, and you say the cathedral saw your mom and there was no one. There so is magnificent. Cathedral in, and

A few tourists in the place, the place feel dead. The architecture was alive but bid it It was very difficult to have a congregation. Congregation is what the church of course is supposed to be. It sets a collect, people who were united in an indifferent. You know it's a collection of sinners acknowledging their sins- and I think that That is a fascinating thing. To me about how we keep. Well. It's so surprising, it's also so surprising. those those hundreds of years ago when those buildings most of those buildings, were built, that those cultures would Kate themselves to such great cost to produce these.

Salute less spectacular, impossible buildings made out of stoner brick these these these that there they're like a dance in stone. They're so magnificent and then to fill them with with. The greatest of art works and and too two to bring the light in the most colorful possible ways and then to bring the music and to set the scene and then to have everyone come in. commit to at least not being as bad as they were right, like joint moral enterprise that everyone was involved. You can be a cynical about that as you want and talk about. You know Sunday, Christians and all of that, but an hour a week to con and plate: how it is that you should be living your life or to become in tune with your conscience once again, which at least the confession can offer that. And and and then to see that so much effort was poured into that.

it's amazing that that over occurred in and then it's also equally amazing that we stop doing it because you might think well, wouldn't wouldn't we be interested in joining coming together and saying? Well, here's how are inadequate- and here how were conceptualizing what would be ideal, and Couldn't we move together. towards that end,. I was talking to Bishop Baron this week and about this issue about the loss, especially in the catholic church of young people in it. Seems that there is a great adventure there that isn't being commute Kate properly and. And it's a terrible loss for all of us. What do we have to replace that you know I talked to the new atheists, especially SAM Harris,

It's not like I dont understand their arguments. It's not like you, don't have sympathy for them for that matter, but. There's nothing poet or artistic or magnificent about. The alternative right loses, it loses. It loses, there's something that disappears. It's there. It's that artistic enough ability, there's no room, there's no obvious room for that in the save II I meant world view, I'm an admirer of Steven Pinker, for example- and he into the enlightenment, rationalist camp. in his book, the language instinct. He talks a little bit at the end about. Culture philosophy, music, art and all of that religion, even for that matter to some degree. But it's like a throwaway chapter at the end where by my way of looking that? the head book all

that artistic endeavour and that shades into the religious endeavour, and that the scent? That's not some side effect of human cognitive development, quite the contrary to the central feature, and I agree with Jordan. I, when, when you're speaking with Julia, the most recent podcast, I heard them d reminded me her her description of her life reminded me of an experience I had in Russia was Insane Petersburg and we were doing a scout for Oh, my roquat love and honour, based on a novel that I wrote an in we were finished with the scale we, have seen everything that yet scheduled to see an this young woman who is in early thirties, russian woman, I'm asking Was anything else we'd like to see because we had some time- and I support

I have to see some euro churches and she got quizzical look on her face. She was surprised that Hollywood director with asked lad. And she said well I'll. Take you to my church and I said you ve, got a church, and she said. Oh yes, I'm christian and I said, but you go when that was scourge, demon, numbers, illegal or Europe, as Christian is, she said now mothers, confirm Davy Esther. Her father was bad. As a child but he's also an atheist in, So how did you become Christian, and she said there was no beauty. I was a young girl walking round and nothing was beautiful. And one day I passed the church and I could see candlelight in it and heard music coming out and I went in and I kept going and I kept going- and I became a Christian in in

in that to me says so much people have no idea, they have no idea. That's why I wrote chapter eight. I have no idea how much they are starving for beauty. Yes, like it it's a hunger that goes far beyond well not say that it doesn't have to go beyond material hunger, but it it. No matter how well fed you are without some relationship to beauty, too much suffering in the world for to be viable and its along with truth. It's the antidote to to suffering. Ensured not opt it's not optional, right crucial and you can tell that by its economic value, for those who are hard headed slight. point two anything with more economic value period the end and so,

With some weeks back, when you were, you were, I felt really, working your way back, that that that work and engagement in in your calling his helping to heal and sustain you. You, said something along the lines of that Then you wondered why, in the desert christian community, in religious community, the people were telling you that the word means so much. You know why why is it it's? It's somewhat overwhelming to realize is that so many people are drawing. from you and think I can do is completely if I today, I was sitting on a bench with my friend who walks with me and this- kid came up to me and he said policies for interrupting. You

but I was listening to your podcast. While I was walking down the street- and I saw you Harry said: started to tear up right away. He said five years ago I was suicidal. Then I was it I've been listening to your lectures on a regular basis? He said an hour and a half a day which. seems like an overdose to be. He said He's invented prosthetic limbs and has helped all sorts of disabled people and is on his way to MIT like Stu, random. Meeting on the street in oh, yes, yes,. and thank you for that too much yes, of course, it is. But I end I know you like to understand. You know that the those something else you set a couple weeks back about. I I want to,

I want to understand why I don't understand why this story makes sense, and- and I do too, a lot of it. All. did to make it fit the wire that all, but the want of it all is that You speak to people, like me, unlike others, who Who know this this experience? chance of more who know, you know what it is to stand in all too. Feel the all of a moment, you combine. All the different elements of of perspective, a thought of experience in you validate or endorse that that peat who choose faith, and who see courage and sacrifice as

crucial divine values. or not idiots its. I think that It is no accident that crucial and cross are. The same thing happened. Yes, exactly n n n. You know we go through this thing of well you're you're, just you're you're, choosing an opiate and and to me it's like well, The alternative is not attractive to win. Nest, working on the pub story, I came across a statement that, I believe is One of the talk show guys late night talk show guys had said Conan o Brien ably it was then he said Pope Francis, had made a pronouncement that thought. Even atheists could go to Heaven. And ingratitude atheists have said that the path

when he dies as welcome to enter their endless void of nothing, Well, that is either the problem with that world view is in some sense that endless void of nothingness confronts us right here and now yes I agree that I I tell people, I'm I'm not so much concerned about life after death. Is life after birth. No, you Jesus said come that you can have life and have it more abundantly and in Not trying in a movie to to how's, my particular dawn, I dont believe in my own dogma, my in my own dogmas is is limited in then I'm not. not trying to think that when I was in school and I'd studies systematic theologians. I remember asking my mentor who was the head of the department,

what is really the point. What what are they trying to do and is Willard trying to have us the system of one standing there, that holds up from every angle, the wool how's that working out for them, because Ultimately you get and to do you have faith or not? When I write a story, it's it's. I've got to. jump in and trust I dont know where the lead but I know that tonight Ben is, is death, and so for me, it's, like, the old testament says I said before you, life and death choose life. and that to me is what I hope my works about damn sure it's what your words about

I want to talk. I want to talk about your life as well, because it It's I'm very curious to see how these things are managed so you grew up in Tennessee that correct yes, yes, and so Let's start there and don't tell me and you work, you worked with an animal show in Florida. Inertia also Nashville in Nashville. Souls, though, my father was from Lizard lick Tennessee, and then the men and my father, family or Elton Elton Dalton, Lyman Gleam and Herman Thurman and Clyde Thurman will it sounds like it sounds like a group of names from lizard lick and by the way, brilliant people my father's cousin gleam,

was very VON bronze right hand. Man at the redstone are small and Hansel Alabama using a genius Kaliko, engineer, building the Rockets and on his there wasn't a whole lot of education of previous generation of his family, but they were brilliant men and my mother escaped to grades in school. and dreamed of being a writer, but she didn't tell me that until I was wrong, grandmother had a country store one room, restore made of wood, My grandfather had solved from the wreck of the Tennessee River about I sat in the back that store on the desk. fashioned out of sacks of pig feed and My first story, and I just always love to write when the other kids would grown when the teacher would say. Ok, we're gonna write, we're gonna frame, right right, a passage right, a theme

right and how did your parents respond to that interest of yours that interest in writing? Well, so my parents, my my mother, was the artist Father loved singing, but he was extremely practical work full time is fourteen years old while going to school, but he had. term jobs during the depression in any scrape. for every dollar was incredibly frugal, so he hid. It was the greatest dream that my sister and I could get an education which, He and my mother had not been able to get higher education, though they read everything. My mother read: everything takes math There was a great salesman, If you set my father too your enemies anywhere. They call up and say, I'm sorry, I'm gonna knock it off

what's if her father could just he loved people, but he was afraid of me having airy fairy kind of career, one that that would impractical and when I was in college, I started little record company. and I had a local here, I said my own record company. I saw the records I went to the stores and whether the radio stations and and I had an encouraging hit. When I gave equipment, did you use It was just me and a guitar, but it was in the folk era, I and I found a studio in our school- do can Durham North Carolina knows a studio and greensborough. And one in Winston Salem so make the drive over there and make recording, it'll save my money in an maker. Have a three hour session and make a couple of months of a record and and put it out,

and I met Chris Christophersen, who is absolute genius. Songwriter wrote me and Bobby Magee in many others, and he was a road scholar- an airborne ranger and a boxer and he was a kind of Renaissance manly man that I. aspire to be that are related to He came to do for a concert and I got to meet him back stage and I told him your loved writing. And singing he said man, you ve got to go to national and He was thoroughly drunk at the time that differ are you, ok, that at any didn't know me at all, but seized on advice, and I heard about it of park a theme opening up called opera land and they we're looking for summer workers and I went over an audition, and I did a young.

A comedy song that written as a cut parity of a country song Tell me why noted how to hear about a couple who spill things so there are children, don't understand what's going on and it was they are the o r. A. I remember that yeah I solve your problem area that they had cadre booth, oh yes, definitely, well. So I wrote a Sancho me and the DE oh gee. and they offered me a permanent job. As manager of animal shows. and I had a piano playing pig pick a rocky, and I had a dark played. The drama named him, Bert, back quack and eight thousand people a day see that show, and I the guy- has a duty to ask what the big could play the piano

He really happy birthday, but with the way we had a worthy was there was a sequence. Sir. There was the early days of the move synthesizer and we had a sequence or so that wherever he hit on the keyboard rooted and I put a little love sparkly oh tie on him and he had a white chest in a black Europe. Main body and white, her saddle he looked like he was in it. see, though see this is the different us is one of the differences between Canada and the United States. That sort of thing happens in the United States. That wouldn't them ever happened here- is also vital. Yes, it awful hello There's a theatrical element to the United States. That always just stunts me when I, when I go there, because it's almost completely lacking in Canada and not to our advantage, I might also add: will

a tale Jordan. When I went to nashville- and I left my left- do go left. I done one year the seminary, I would had a Dame religion, majors committee- I was kind of a leader among students in, and I was kind of. I hated put it this way, but a sort of the golden child of my parents, home you know. I was gonna, go beyond after a lawyer, right for your class, a game of of parents who want education for their children, but aren't educated themselves. Yes, of course, and I actually spoken with my my the pastor of my own church when I grew up in and he asked me if I felt the call to be a pastor when I was majoring and religion, and I I just steady religion caused fascinated me and it seemed more relevant, that time I had settled on

becoming a writer and went what year were you in university. When was this? What you graduate in seventy one? I was in seminary until seventy till you are doing. You were studying religion right at the height of a hippie era, centrally, oh yeah, absolutely and then you have hippy leanings, or were you button down conservative type at that point? Well, I I I would say I was more conservative, but I but schools a time for me to try to be open like when you talk about the personality traits of openness, yet what you're very open so well, hope I am, Well, it shows you, wouldn't you you wouldn't be driven to create that way in, and you wouldn't have attained this level of success across these multiple disciplines and in a diverse range of your activities. That's all emblem, dick of of hi high levels of trade, openness, so

my interests, interest in philosophy, interest in fiction, interesting art, the capacity for aesthetic experience. All of that is deeply biologically rooted. All of that, it's a real, it's a really fundamental trade. Will they the reason why I. I wonder about the The various in her place of my trades is that at that time I was also considering going into the marine corps and being Return later in Vietnam, which is needed are you an orderly person? Yet yeah, ok and and hard work, or you said that right at the beginning, so you're very high, conscientiousness detrimental innocent industriousness and very high and openness, and that makes you a complex personality because openness, tilts people towards liberalism and radicalism, but conscientiousness tilts them towards traditional examined and and conservatism, and-

we have to marry those two opposite: right, rare combination of traits like the extreme levels in any traits are rare. But if you the extremes of two traits and bring them together. That's particularly rare and yes,. I haven't you justness and openness fight to some degree, because if you're creative, you like to break things, but if you're orderly, don't really like the mess yes absolutely in and in fact, Jordan. I I think that that that that counts, let within me has been the source of I have a lot of distress and depression. I felt I I started to get depressed. When I was a national in part. It was said. I I felt very alone. I didn't have many p I didn't have people with whom I could I did. I shared Musical S interests yes, I did. I could have a conversation about Kierkegaard. Might I have a

I have three signs and my youngest is named sore and after character guard. No, there? I was around had any idea. What sort of men tour was are, although I had named in that then, but when I went to national I knew that I was. I was flying in the face of what my parents had sacrifice eyes. Mightily for me to have and it was really distressing for me and I am made a vow that two things wouldn't hold me back: a lack of effort or a fear of failure. So I the planned Jana, where I had an opportunity, I would do the best I could. I was working sixty seventy hours a week at the I will show up at the theme park, but got up every morning at four thirty and would write a song every day

Ok, so that's ok, so that the first thing I'd like to highlight, because I am interested in what made you successful across these multiple domains and. part of it is. While the fortunate that the marriage of openness and conscientiousness it there's a paradox there, but that that capacity for dedicated work and discipline conjoined with creativity that can both of the move very very rapidly the animal. Well, I I got signed to nationals biggest music publisher in there answer me really prolific, I bought song a day, that's said, and did you decide you we're going to do that? You're gonna get where thirty the morning you write a song. So how did you because are you waiting around for inspiration? Are you just write the damn song, if I dragged my bought out about it for thirty. In the morning I was gonna write, a damn song then is in and an eye

actually learned later that that was too much, but I didn't know it. Then I felt I have you have to do too much before you figure out how much is enough extent, to be when you're young, that's the time to figure out what to do? because you can actually tolerated. Yeah overload yourself and then pull back. Well, I was living in a one bed room apartment in a nice. Parliament building a minute was clean. It was safe, but I no furniture of sleeping on the floor. I didn't want to spend any money on furniture. And am I saved my money and after about. two years. Felt. I wasn't getting me where I wasn't. Having any songs recorded you and I wasn't. I was making a little money and with this publishing company were not much in, and I was. A pretty good salary at the theme park. save my money and I decided I was not being success because I wasn't committed enough. I had a picture of Beethoven, which is up

rather iconic picture of him holding no pad and frowning up at the sky and- and I thought- Ok, I'm gonna be like Beethoven. Nominate, commit completely and I am I quit my job in us. Then all day- every day alone- in my apartment never went out. No friends, no social life at all This writing studying practicing all day, every day after about four feet: months about how to break down and arm, I mean really like headache- attracts- could need debilitating depression where did you are you extroverted? Yes, yes, so that would have been very hard on you that isolation yeah, I mean oh I'm, like my father I'll go into

strong now get to know the bus, boys and hug. Everybody in covets been bad on me, but it was. It was raining every single day there been fourteen straight days without a penny, the blue sky and I decided if I die see some blue sky. I'm gonna kill myself, and I loaded everything I could carry on a toilet. I drove to California by myself and here and kept trying to write songs, ultimately got a job because still running my little music company in that impressed some people in in the music business that I would then then I could walk into an office without, a calling card without company name. Talk to the Secretary get past, the receptionist get my songs to they produce and they were impressed with that and and

They offer me a job. I was music, major music publisher for about a year, and then they are you going to grant. Had you graduated from Duke at that point, oh yeah yeah. How old were you when you went out to California twenty five came? and and then arm, and why California, apart from the sun, I mean where you going there, because it was Hollywood because it was did he go to allay yeah went to illegally, but they had a. They had a music scene and allay that so was music was London, which I didn't have the money to go to New York. which I thought they're gonna hate me up there, I'm just I'm a southern crew then they're gonna, hate me and national was I didn't, really love country, music, it one brilliant music publisher, listen to my songs once in

and he was so elegant and thoughtful, and he looked at me and said you up. country music and I said well, I really respect. If anyone knows not what I asked you He said: if you don't love it, it's not gonna work here, don't sell your soul for pennies and I thought What else is the only place where they do that? The kind of music- but I seem to like besides London, is happening in all, go out and try it out there. And what did you like it? That point? Who were you listening to gas? we can't stevens your I thought he was an incredible blend of of, surprising, music and a serial powerful lyrics.

I also work, Neil Diamond due to a lot of my friends seemed real cheesy, but I thought you know the tap red manuscript, all gosh, that that's agree on one thing that was my favorite album ever let out their head and shoulders above anything else you ever made in range so brilliantly. It's got one pop song on it which really doesn't belong, but there still it is it's real. Quite brilliant. That Suleiman is just incredible brother and it works very well as an album as it as it totally. It's great my life, I my wife loved that when she was a kid greed, five- and I listened to it through her in live. Listen to it from time to time ever since it dry brilliantly arranged to yes, which is quite Absolutely them was my favorite album Hamburg. Lots of people who are watching this won't have heard of that. So I would regard as

your opinion of Neil Diamond, you should listen to temporary man's. Yes, yes, he did a lot of things in their that Paul Simon did but twenty years later, you're hanging in the african music and that's why I'm so brilliantly. We have very creative that album absolutely, and Similarly, some cool the tabs, your favorite album, gets who else you so CAT Stephen. So he liked the that those very melodic very lyric, based Who else we listening to Van Morrison, I really loved Van Morrison, and of course I like the Beatles, but I I really like the rolling stones to, and I thought they were not underrated. How can you say they were underrated, but they give you list Two separate for the double in the line. I wrote it in the generals Reich when a blitzkrieg raged and a body stank. Yet

it's a killer song. fi anyway, you show me a lyricists it right with more power than that he was somewhere else when he wrote that that's that's up ass, that's a pretty. Do pretty dark song, but I saw I wasn't in a band, and I and I I was Will it felt that I was trying? to get my arms around too much that I I didn't know how to go from, sitting and I lived in enough well said Was I lived in an attic over garage? It was built in it. Was it was nice, built in, but I could only I'm six words I can only stand upright in the very centre of the apartment, because the roof was so slanted but I had a piano and I worked all day in. on songs, but I just

wasn't I wasn't having any success then, and I met a woman who became my wife and her father absolutely brilliant. He had been a prisoner of war in one war. Two he was Bombardier, navigate our new shot down making for He too early forty three. So his prisoner warfare couple of years, stolid left three and he had written a screen play about his experience. ass. He was on a close friends. William, Peter Bloody they had been, their work is misused. Yes, in bloody was also a genius and they had worked as an intelligence unit counter until gents unit during the korean WAR, and they friends and bloody. Successful lachesis come this far my father, more need written screenplay and I know, seen one in one eye

looked it up, it was on her coffee table and in the future Let me up Jordan because it have the sort of partners nature of so much modern fiction winner, the writers trying to show off his knowledge it it it it there was an essential nature like when you talk about how to write all the the editing to get down to the essence. Screenplay have to do that they were like songs in it. Every word has to count and all you can really portray effectively in a screen players, but you see the character do and what you hear the character say. So that characterise thinking has to come through in watching which, go back to that. How

thought manifest in in the concrete world and I decided to try that. And how are you? How are you surviving at that point? You were. Writing music were used where you employed by this this this the offices that you had walked into yeah, I I I had a job for us for a year and that they pay me well, and I was extreme frugal, so there I mean I I didn't drank- I didn't smoke guided in they didn't need out. You know why and made beans and stuff. and so I was able to as able to get along once in a while. My mother would send me a little money and my father would call me and say: don't this any meals, but he wanted me to. Not suffer, but he wanted me to under Two. undergo the cost.

A choice, yeah. Well, it's really hard when you're apparent to know how to help. Your kids, you know gosh you can only offer help them there It's a real problem. It's such a hard question is: You was you steal from them? If you take their problems away, right, you deprive them of deprivation. Yes, you know you put it yes and deprive them of the other of the solution that they might come to on their own to war I landed a job with architectural digested phone rang out of the blue one day that I I wrote a novel and got it published over the transom by a publisher called Jp Putnam sons, toys eight publisher that you must have been thrilled all got over the moon and in Thought was I Didn'T- have an agent, but I thought I want. If I I want to write my own novel before I take class or novel writing or-

you're right, I don't want somebody who's failing at something. Tell me how to do it. And I want to discover. What is in me to do what is my way? What is my style of doing this? If I write a novel, Then, as well as Vince Lombardy, ably was one who said it, the more you sacrifice the hearted it harder. It is to surrender if I Might the novel. then I would be willing to fight my way through their rejection said woollen inevitably come too to see it through And I went to the librarian got down bunch of novels and copy the address of the publishers out and had fifteen your publishers and about fifteen letters, and- bribed my my new novel and ass, if they would like to see it, and the very first one was JP, Putnam signs and they said, send us the first three chapters

I did, they called a week later and said we'd like to see the rest of it Right that never happens, and then I got fourteen rejection letter sum of some of which I got after the the book was, published and a long and there. I HU. I got married and my wife pregnant and my wife got pregnant, we got pregnant she had Mormon ancestors, and she knew because of them she knew the entire genealogy of her family back as far as it can be traced. and all I knew was that we were tennesseeans. I didn't know about Scotch Irish laden- know about any of that He spoke english dollars like, I guess we're anguish, and, but she

It said to me: never really imagine being a mother. But if you get me pregnant, you have to pay, take me to Europe because she to travel, and she was a dancer worked. Made money was very successful at it in and I was saving my money and I was writing for architectural digested. The time I wrote eight or nine arctic articles for contractual Digest, which was thing, because I've been living in an attic over a garage, big Billy, multi million dollar homes? and while you pay, we appreciated the more oh yeah are you in my my my gimmick? Jordan was more, people who reading this magazine don't have the money that the people who are living in these homes? Have but there must be some principle of making a

place, beautiful that is applicable in fact, and share that with them and the way they the person whose building the home, both the the architect designer and the end the owner of the their personalities what is driving their process in all this- could be interesting to to the buyers of the magazine. You read my article in that seem to resonate so I make nice money doing that would save it so we went to Europe, and I have heard that there were Wallace's in Scotland, so we were in London and I suggested a detour to Scotland in we were walking into Edinburgh Castle and there was a statue of a man named William Wallace. and on the other side of the door flanking the door with was tat your Robert, the Bruce and a new Robert, the Bruce from I

Bobby Burns point, which of course you quote, they would some you know the gift he gives the same as other spheres. In your new book I knew from Scots which her with Wallace bled. I knew the reference to Wallace from that Robert. The point about Robert the Bruce, so I asked guard their who is William Wallace and he said he's our group. is to Europe. And I'm elbowing, my pregnant wife going crazy, cheerful hunting. Here, while its greatest Europe and and I said to the black Watch guard their well was he and Ally of Robert Bruce and fighting the English and the guard the magic words that every writer loves to here? He said No one will ever know for sure. But our legend say the robber. where's may have been on the betrayal of William Wallace.

To clear the way for himself to become the king well, I didn't know that William Wallace had been betrayed, but that, statement was like hearing that Judas Iscariot and Saint Peter were the same person, it made me wonder what if there was something so powerful and profound in the life and death Of William Wallace did it true is formed Robert Bruce a person who would betray his country's greatest hero, into this country's greatest king and I thought this is a mine blowing story, but I had a wife and I had to find a way to feed her to feed her, you baby in, and in it and I didn't feel ready right that story. So we can back to LOS Angeles and I got a job working in television and tell

action is an incredible grind. It's like running fray, France its insatiable insatiable hand in those days, and in these days I give you my Netflix series. It might be ten episodes a year well in in those days it was twenty. Two episodes a year and I meant her was a guy named Steve Candle and he taught me tremendous stuff in. One thing, but how did you get a job in television I had written a screen play in friend of mine, working out at a gym. And I love to work out. In fact it it keeps me gives me saying, and I just I enjoy yet I enjoy being in Jameson and on And there was a guy there, it was work really ferociously as well, and he was telling. another friend their stories about Elvis Presley, and my father heads

Dean Elvis when he was there, brought driver and was getting paid by fifty dollars to sing the supermarket opening and I told him that story that my father soil has said. A supermarket opening didn't fifty bucks in we started chatting and that guy that I was talking with was my post, who is the most thus all television composer, probably ever absolutely brilliant guy and we hit it off and became friends in and one day he said to me: are you? Are you making money. And what do you do, and I said: well, I'm gonna write screenplays night. That's that's what I'm doing now, I'm a writer and they said you automate Steve Camel and he doing MIKE was doing the music for Steve Council like made his business to get Steve to read one of my scraps and eventually, a sample of my writing got there.

What attracted them was they were doing show about a guy from Texas is basically a. They will, dare I say it should kicker. and on and on telling a lizard lick stories right right. Then I evaluate you know months. I told him about the piano playing pig there like give this guy on assignment and from my first, this year there is definitely a door opening story that one and so I got I and I became he became a mentor. and we had a. We had a really fabulous relationship for about three years. And then we started to get sideways in I guess it's an old story that you know, entering the de the protegee protegee, Sir thinking. He knows what he is doing in the mentor. Maybe you know has mixed

feelings about it in and I realized I had to leave and and I did when she was. Did you work on them? first one. I worked almost called Hunter It was a long running cop drama, also created co, created with Steve, My friend Frank Loop, who just passed away about a week ago, And they had done eighteen and frankly Stephen donating. So on the show, called Hunter in the show called J J Starbuck in another show called her sunny spoon. None which became big heads, but they were all on for about a season and in and then I made a lot of money doing it. I mean I hadda I had beautiful home in german cars in the driveway tennis court in the fire,

this one. Yes, he said our car. You said in your book at your car fish you now I'm a hillbilly Jordan. I just like I like Elvis alone, and so However, they were, they were in the Sixtys and Seventys fifty while they were still simple enough, so that you can kind of understand them and have an affinity for them. You know they ve got so sophisticated now and so abstract that it's hard to it's hard to fall in love with them. Their great car new cars are so good, but they're, so good, you're kind of not interesting any more. That's right! That's right in all my relatives could fix them and to animal garden. In my eldest son restores cars, take a jot like sixty Mustang and a year later it looks brand new is is incredibly gift. with that, but deeply satisfying work that yes, absolutely, but when I left when I left camel it was

horrifying innocence because I had gone from. having no idea where my next dollar would come from to my salary. Doubling every year for four years and then suddenly having no idea where my next dollar would come from and I couldn't having Steve protegee and then get sideways. What am I couldn't even get. A meeting to pitch an idea at a network- and I went to features almost in desperation and and decided that I would write that story data so that was still lurking in the back of your mind, oh yeah, yeah and but but this watershed moment in this I was, I felt the the the dark voices clutching my insides, you know in screen. Through my head and my stomach.

was nodding up in my hands were trembling and I couldn't write and in our story get really afraid then, because at all has been able to will myself through them where there was my Most remarkable trait was just that sort of scottish stubbornness no matter what the painters I can take it longer than you conditional and I was finding that I well TAT was betraying my sons, and I hid that's it here. we'll feeling that, if you are getting depressed, was that what is now happening? Yes, yes, That was the problem with depression. Is that it actually saps that will like it? is it painful beyond description? often, but it goes after the very thing that you would use to fight it. Yes exactly and

my sons were the same age. I was when my father had lost his job and had a complete breakdown. I mean hospitalized in everything and- and I just I felt that That lurking. and I got on my knees. And I said, a prayer. and I d I mean I D. I had nowhere else to go and I got on my knees and I prayed. What matters most to me right now is my sons and- and maybe the best thing for them is now did they grow up in private schools. In German cars in you dont nannies in everything. Maybe maybe it would be best for them if they lived in a house even one without indoor plumbing the way I when my father had his breakdown. But my father also showed me how a man gets up.

And he did get up, many came back tremendous success and and I thought if that what you want me to show my son's then He's bring it on and please help me bear it. But if I go down in this light I pray. I go down not on my knees to Hollywood, but standing with my flag flying fighting for what I believe in and I stood up and our roads, screenplay for love and honour and I got me into the office of a young woman in Rebecca Pollack, whose Sidney Pollux daughter Pollack, directed out of FIFA Jeremiah Johnson three, so the candour and I told her the story of brave heart in about ten minutes, And she went my god- go right that and I said, do you want an outline or something and she went what I'm gonna tell you how to write act to go right there and.

and that led me into what do you think it was about you that all that made doors open for you, like that. it's quite a remarkable theme? I mean these are all very difficult enterprises to gain a foothold in. And you tell stories overrun over about people. offering you the chance, was that a salesman, the salesman skill that your father had? Do you think But what was it? I have to guess, Jordan, because the to see ourselves as other sea as clearly the hard thing but Do you think? I do I am. Emma incredibly blessed that I had salesman, Father Heart was as big as the ocean, and I had this, brilliant mother, who was it was absent. steel inside and

and gender. I mean she was she with an iron iron hand and a velvet glove and dumb but make sense, because you think what you need, the creativity and you ve got out and you need the discipline to work and you ve got that. But that's not enough! You to be able to market, you have to be able to make contact with people, we have to build a communicate with them Your material, because otherwise you languish Would you say to you but I think there is, I think, there's something in look. You know whenever anyone says this was it you know thank goodness I had this gift of. God is so self aggrandize like you're, elevating you're you're gifts, but but I think there were as there is a thing that I didn't create, but I have chosen to follow, which There's something about being bold and being willing to take the porch too,

to be able to walk, and it's like when I decided I would write my screen play first, I, like a like writing original screenplays. Without going to accompany and saying like it was an original screenplay, we call a speck screenplay they got me into Rebecca S office in the first place, the gutter to listen about brave heart and- there is an element of tremendous daring. to say I I don't have to have your endorsement or your money. to sit down and writers and in fact I like the equation of it to say you are right this, and I made this choice a dozen times in my career I write it. And it doesn't sell. I will live with that. Well, I will have written What I believe I will have written what I want. I will have written the movie I want to make if you say you don't want to buy it, then

sky, mine and then you're gonna, look like an idiot and that that equation theme comes out quite strong secretariat Yes, it does too. She pursues that. Then, vestment and in her horse in that famous remarkable horse single mindedly and, as and in it and ended high risk. Yes, and I I feel that something and obviously we can be weakened, be project. this onto the horse, but the the metaphor, the movie for me was I see I wrote the I wrote the song of the credits, called it to you are the prize, it's not the game at the score: it's not the same

whenever he rode, looks way too far. It's not what you have to you are, and in that You choose your race and then you run in an all say that to myself over and over, to myself daily. Don't the chance to live. This day and when I'm divorced, and it was the most wrenching horrific thing. Of my wife. I would I would get out of bed in the morning and drop straight, to my knees and pray for the strength to get through the day. At the end of the day, when I would get down on my knees to say thanks, I would think well, I did her face. Today I did get through the day. At least enough to get through the day and and if you can't put you into depression, is well, we ve

we have to reach amulets sounds like it from what you're relating came through in your book. To that that mean you Don T, talk about it much, but when you touch on it is quite clear that that was an experience that you know took this. The slats out from underneath you, yes and and that that- and I don't- I don't talk about it too much though so you know there are other people involved, but you know it's my family was wrenching for all of us, but it may be that the depression also contributed yes near the the it was such a highly probable leading to live with someone who has a pre predisposition to depression. Yeah chart and so yeah. It certainly is certainly the fight in through within me and them

but at the same time there were there was something beautiful. I mean there are many beautiful things that come out of such darkness one was, I was putting up Christmas lights it there that the house I had. move to Trotter rebuild my life in in my son's, I would see my son's three day. awaken. There was very strained and and arm And I was trying to make my home look beautiful and I was putting up Christmas lights and I was getting really depressed and I was talking with my therapist a break, guy in, and I told him about that- and I said you know carefully date, anybody- and I I You know I'm not saying my son's enough in my neighbour, don't celebrate Christmas in and I'm and putting up Christmas lights and I'm getting more depressed doing it and he said well how about this

You, don't put your Christmas lights up for your neighbors to say, Don't put him up for someone you're dating to see you don't even put him up for your children to see. God sees your Christmas lights. Put your Christmas lights up, forgot to say havoc what a great way to think of everything we do in our lives like yours, Here's what is most defy. if I labour in anonymity. If nobody knows it, but I done it so that God sees it then, That's better than if I did something. I don't believe in that everybody applauded me for and so that that's just been nay it it's a choice I continually have to make in struggle with to affirm, but- it is the one I really believe it. I dont think that peat

would create anything that was truly original if they didn't think like that, you know because if its original and surprising there's no track record for it. There's no proof that its valid right. I have you, there's just no option but to take the risk, and so If that line of thinking didn't exist there there should be no way that you would take the risk exactly I mean I was always the kid maybe next week, creativity and religion, religious, thanking our line so tightly is that you have to make that leave us face to produce something. That's original, Yeah by definition, yes and Why did you see that again that seem sort of playing out in Secretariat, because all the advice that is given to the Chechen airy in general? Is her name right meant mischief generally? she owns this horse remarkable horse and

Anyone sensible would have sold him because She was gonna, lose everything, including credibility, yes, but she didn't and She was right, but there was no proof of that. To begin with it. That was a leap of faith. I don't, I really don't see how you can do something original without that leap of faith. Has just, as I said, there's no track record or join it. I had thought of this at all before this conversation Burton. It strikes me that there's something, as you mentioned, that in common with you and her and when I say how isolating it To take that leap? got to know penny. I I've I've had the the opportunity to make several movies about people who- still living. when the movies being made

and every time I do it I swear. I won't do it again, because I'd rather be free to see us budget. I got to know pinning and boy there was far and that woman and up she was well into the nineties when we started making secretariat and she was incredibly attractive. The her her eyes were so full of life and were so direct, and on wine, We went to the Kentucky Derby together right after the movie was made, which was Certainly a magical moment we just made the movie and- now we're going to the next running of the Kentucky Derby and and I got to go with pending and, of course, pennies and Churchill downstream issues. She was a rock star and are you

everybody, knew were making the movies Disney movie is gonna, be saved a lot of people on and on. We we saw the race together in thing bills up at the Kentucky Derby to the derby itself. Its derby is like the eighth race of the ninth ways of a whole day of racing. So And then there are racist after the derby, so, when they derby was over, I built this crescendo everybody walked back into the the party rooms and forgot us and I was left out on a balcony just penny and me, and And we're staying there together, like this, is a sacred moment and on this issue Probably gonna be the last time I see her again She looked down at the horse that had just one they were dead taking the saddle off the horses were kind of cooling him down and

she looked down? That's it. That's a well well bred, horse, arms, casual comment, and I looked at her said Paul. We ve come to the end of this movie process and it now, it will be in the movie. The tell me What did you not tell me? What have you What what did you want to say? It has never been told what what have you kept from me, and he paused and she looked down at the the box seats where she set as an honour and she said I sat down there alone. Every day alone, the other owners would tolerate me but they never accepted me and arm I just thought about that: the there's this outcome, massive stepping out there of leaping out there alone and

Andy the thing to me about it- is a good. There's a you have to believe it's worth doing for itself. Exactly. and in a way you you hope it worth doing. But you don't know I have have a friend here is a rabbi, nay Mordechai thinly, and on for anybody S, gentle ass. May it's always fun. When I say it's my rabbi and rabbi. Family was a marine he's, a brilliant thinker and out of a friend, Steve Press field is incredible. Writer wrote a book called the war of art which you'd be very interested in. I think- depressed field was- investigating his own faith. He had decided to do, kinda spiritual matters, and he asked me to go along with them too rather families lectures at the University of Judaism

and a rather family is very practical guys, son in the Marine Corps of God, daughter, israeli intelligence in, and these are tough guy in any solution, people say, follow you heart unsteady your head. Will your hearts the only thing less reliable than your head so that state sort of sat for a minute and somebody raise your hands of all. Then how do we what to do. An rabbi family paused for a long time? As you do, by the way when, like like your considering that the question of fresh, it's not like Here's my pad answer. It's like wool find what what's the true answer right now. Any pause like that and he said. a couple of times in my life, I've been hanging by my finger nails over the abyss. And I let go because

I couldn't hang on anymore and I fell. Under the arms of god- and he said I didn't know it would be the arms of God. When I let go. If I had known it, it wouldn't truly have been letting go. and I was sitting there in this crowd of people going. And he looked at me and pointed out. Many goes Christians notice, Chris and no grace in our tradition? We We have to sort of look for that concept, it's there, but we have to look for it, but he said it's grace and I think about that its its eye no every time when I sit down that that I'm not wasting my time that I'm not just gonna ruin. In a room of paper or- that I'm not gonna beggar. My children,

or am I gonna, write something that somebody's gonna hate, but home, but my mother had up, I was saying she gave me one. We just made we were soldiers, and my father died as certain in my book about and we were soldiers. My father passed away Hell you died on nine eleven and on Can we, after, after his funeral, and I was back to work. I was calling my mother every day and- and I called her and said how are you doing in she said MILAN? I'm doing I'm doing ok, how are you doing, and I said well, I'm nervous today and she said why and I said well enough were testing the movie tonight. We're gonna have its first public test and she's. What does that make you nervous and ass? It were

There are a lot of people. They come to these things intentionally just to be snarking just a listed. The sling mad at you and in when you put your your blood and your sweat and your tears and your money into. Work and you know people are gonna, do that it condemnation nervous. and so in my mother, said, were honey. If they could. Suffice! Jesus Christ. They're gonna be some people that don't like you Jordan, is the crucible Jesus Christ. There can be some people had no idea, you know. I would like to talk to you for another three hours. Oh, that's a really good place to stop, I think grave and

I really enjoyed that an. It was, it was delightful to hear your stories and and to talk to you and I'm so happy that you decided that you'd participate. In this bar guest. I think people will find it quite interesting so I ask you what you asked Betty. Is there anything that we didn't that you'd like to let people know about. you know. Jordan me. I think the the big the big thing, I'm trying to figure out right now, and I again I draw inspiration from you and there are still too. to be a teaching professor and too to start to lecture and restored to use, media and and and define and to find an audience in different ways.

I love making movies and it's it's it's my calling I love music to and I am trying to figure out how to to get it all out how to both to just do it and let people know it exists. and I'm not sure the proper way and in anticipation of doing this, I made a little website for that new song, a roll call praising the Lord, because I think An affirmation right now is what we really need to do. Look at all that we have going for us instead of being with. Knowing the fear I'm trying to figure that notion out so I am really gonna be watching you to learn from How to do that, and what but the best way, because there's a part of

He too, that goes. I really want to be left alone. I don't wanna, be recognised and want to be I don't wanna, be noticed, but I also the Bible says you don't take a candle and put it under. You know, the table or under a bushel. You know you, you try to try to show it up that. That's a very focused a thing to say That's what I'm trying to figure out, between you and me personally, that's the That's the thing I'm to figure out at this stage of my life is, What shall I do with all the things that I'm doing. Now. I know the answer. I think it's really helpful to let people see into your life a bet. You know people are so fascinated with what goes on in Hollywood. What goes on with people who are creative, too, to say

What it's been like to talk about that? That's it resting and compelling and soon and and so we manage to do some of that today. so hooray for that and I'm looking, I tell you. I am very much looking forward to this new movie, do you have it for it, the Swiss Guard and and proposed, released state any idea Probably twenty twenty two. And yet I had trodden make the kind of movie that I would want to see, You know that I would want my sons to say they want the people that I love to see so warm. it amazes me that that you and your wife watched Secretariat and that thrills me so I hope that this movie, that would be worthy of your time, to sit down and watch it, I am very much looking forward to it. I hope get to talk again.

Meter, Jordan already under way and tat, they can have a right. Thank God bless you.

three. The right choice.