This episode was recorded on September 7, 2021.
Angus Fletcher and I discuss creativity, the link between literature and resilience, what makes for compelling narratives, the different kinds of stories, and much more.
Angus Fletcher is a Professor of Story Science at Ohio State's Project Narrative, the world's leading academic think-tank for narrative theory. He is also the author of Wonderworks: The 25 Most Important Inventions in the History of Literature.
Find more Angus Fletcher on his website: https://AngusFletcher.co
[00:00] Intro
[01:21] What is Project Narrative?
[02:27] "Stories are the most powerful things ever invented. They're the most powerful tool we possess" Angus Fletcher
[03:04] "When you realize stories have the power to change how our mind works, to troubleshoot it, to make it more resilient, more creative, more scientific—to do all these things... When you couple the power of stories with the human brain, you throw open the doors to anything" AF
[03:53] The problem with literary studies. How stories empower us and improve performance
[07:06] Wonderworks and the story of courage in Homer's Iliad
[12:40] "Literature and scripture are synonyms. They mean 'that which is written.' So [something] more fundamental than any technology... Is simply that sense of spiritual experience" AF
[13:18] The Neuropsychology of Anxiety by J. Grey
[14:44] What are the 2 kinds of stories?
[19:12] Story thinking
[19:22] "Human cognition is largely narrative. We process the world narratively" AF
[22:12] "The wonder of being on this earth... is to build stories and [empower people] to tell their own" AF "And to unite us in a collective story so we can work towards the same ends" JP
[23:00] Why are certain stories so compelling?
[24:48] The zone of proximal development
[25:44] "Being enthralled is a manifestation of the instinct that specifies the zone of proximal development" JP
[31:24] The ideal spirit transcending the individual; Jung's Pleroma
[32:14] "The flip side of anxiety is creativity—they're both about restless energy" AF
[33:31] What's the source of dreams?
[33:55] "We have this vast knowledge in embodied action." A great storyteller takes "images that reflect a compelling pattern of behavior [and verbalizes them]” JP
[34:56] Abstract representation of patterns as a dream-source
[38:43] Computational power, stories, and the differences between the abstract and particular
[38:48] "Much of what drives the demand for higher computational resources is... producing artificial realities for fantasy simulation" JP
[45:51] Christianity and Star Wars
[46:35] "Star Wars is Christianity for atheist nerds" JP
[46:56] "We are most happy when we don't perceive ourselves as inheriting an archetypal story" AF
[48:16] "We see in stories, and this is partly why our eyes are adapted... so that people can see [the white in] our eyes. It's really important because [our eyes point at] what they're interested in. We can see what they value [and] infer their motivation" JP
[50:36] Literature and psychedelic experiences
[51:27] "In psychotherapy... you're trying to hammer the person's narrative into a single... functional unit" JP
[55:31] Trauma, unconscious mapping, and dream analysis
[56:56] "Any territory you cannot perceive through the overlaid projection of a narrative map is traumatizing" JP
[59:59] Jung, Joseph Campbell, and Erich Neumann
[01:02:51] Jung vs Darwin on stories
[01:10:18] "Literature can build emotional and intellectual resilience" AF
[01:14:55] Being adaptive is “to be emotionally and intellectually resilient" AF
[01:15:54] Creative training; measuring creativity
#Creativity #Stories #Jung #Literature #Darwin
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome to the J Bp podcast season for episode, sixty two
episode was recorded on September seventh, twenty twenty one in this episode,
dad was joined by Angus Fletcher Professor of story, science at the world's leading think tank on narrative theory, appropriately called project narrative dad and Professor Fletcher covered topics like creativity,
the link between literature resilience, what
makes certain stories so compelling, and the two main types of stories before me
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The wonder of being on this earth is that there is this possible to tell our own story and beyond that suit, build stores we can handle the other people to empower them to tell their own stories and, in all those back to the set of dynamism, that your time
about arms, and also these emotions you're talking about tantamount to unite us and to United in a collective story so that we can work cooperate together towards the same man's right so that
We all come under the same banner in some sense, and that's that shared intention. That's that's very specifically human. You don't see that
manifest itself much and other animals. Even the higher apes have a hard time with it. Compared does
Absolutely yes, and you know what a big about there is- that its ultimately voluntary
hello. Everyone I'm pleased to have with me today doc
Angus Fletcher, who wrote wonder, works
he's a study of the psychology of stories. The psychology of narrative.
I'm mean to read you Doctor Fletchers file from the back cover doktor, Angus, Fletcher,
a professor at Ohio State
diversities, project narrative, the world's leading academic, think tank for the study of stories he has done
Degrees in neuroscience and literature received this page
DE from Yale taught Shakespeare at Stanford and has published two
looks and dozens of peer reviewed, academic articles on the scientific
workings of novels, poetry, film and theatre, his
research has been supported by the National Science Foundation, the Melon Foundation in the Academy of Motion picture arts and sciences. He's done so
Mary consulting for pro
Six four Sony Disney. The BBC, Amazon, PBS and
b c universal and is the
author presenter of
audible, slash great course, is grip,
to screen writing so Doktor Fletcher. Thank you very much for
green to talk to me today and I'm looking for
to this conversation greatly. So, let's start a bit with this
project narrative at Ohio State. I hadn't heard of that previously and so tell me how
You got interested now and then maybe how you got interested in this in the sector
Ology stories more broadly based
being a tangible enemy, a bigger Jordan, I'm thrilled to project narrative is best.
As a rogue outposts of literary studies? We do the re studies completely differently from everyone
In the modern academy, basically there was a split in the nineteen twenty days started
new criticism and criticism. When aren't you develop what is essentially, ah them
Modern bitter I studied in Ukraine is based on the same method is used in relation to interpret the Bible
that's the same method used really across the academy. Even old new criticism has a cell phone out a favor
and Roger narrative. We take a different approach and, in my case it's a sighted approach. We're interested
and studying how stories work in the brain and the particular focus of my research is the belief that stories are the most powerful things bad humans had ever invented
was powerful tool, we possess a simple reason, for that is it.
The brain is the most powerful thing on earth for good or for that matter,
look around the ordinary treatments are more mind. The quarters we have created aside with clear the technology we have created the army of created, but also the fact that we have the power to wipe out this planet to destroy, and when you realise that story
have the power to change our my works,
sue troubleshoot it to make it more resilience to make it more creative make a more scientific? You always think you realize that's when you cover the power of with the human brain, you throw open the doors
so that sort of my focus and sort of what we do a project narratives. We study stories how they work scientifically, what they do, and
because of that, we're we're considered somewhat heretical, somewhat maverick and definite on the fringes. Although I should say decommissioned
Yale, so all of a star are reputable and end well respected scholars. So,
are you are you on the fringes in
Psychologists, tour among literary critics? No doubt knows
So anyone extraordinary things about my career is that my work is backed by some of the biggest your scientists, as I can't just in world the doctors, nurses, social workers, big business,
is the Eu S Army a special operations? Can you see the air force in India
There's an enormous amount of backing for my work among people who are pragmatic and empirically
EAST and are interested in science bites
the way the literary studies has become an instrument that what has happened in the recitals, because everyone is using its plan, which is really for the middle ages.
The same thing is happening in the risk that he's now it happening and allegiance people read the same book, Sycamore conflicting interpretations of them. Those interpretation reflect their idea, ideologies,
They argue puffer answer we just have these were the endless combustion, don't go anywhere just like the Protestants in and the Catholics
Just so you know what my were basically says is what have we just back out of that and what, if we just do, the same thing that science and stones and we focus on the way that choice can empower us
the story. The way the Swiss can improve our human performance because asteroid
why they were created by our ancestors. Our ancestors came to be in a tragic world,
I realise their own frailty insufficiency basin, hardly cope with this month. How do I find strength in the face of my
your town. How do I lived myself up? What I see so much filled with myself? I see so much frailty in terms of my capacity for for anger.
hates, and also my duty to be damaged by my duty to suffer grief and trauma and woman's. How do I put myself tool could help me do that so the beginning of that literature with early scriptures, there's a ton of technologies, as I talk about him,
that we can actually trace their effects in the brain and going beyond the healing work into actually making us more about ourselves. Empowering us, with with joy, with creativity, with resilience with powder lived of others and brass, wasn't warmly the power,
RO. I too not stay still soon take on damage and turn that damage around into a source of strength.
And so what my were? Does my work focuses on how literature does all those things which almost no intuitively all of us have read a book?
Sometimes I have read a novel, sometimes watch the movie at some time, reform at some time and felt healed were lifted or strengthen Europe.
Musician favoured artist Robert? You know you look
to their words and feel the same thing but been how how is it doing that, and so my work
goes in that, but also more powerfully, my vote. My work breaks down the technology of the future soon identified a specific nuts and bolts is visiting blueprints there having those specific effects and so that the work that I do I brought him here-
so in in wonder, works in this. In this book, which I referred to earlier, you list out what you consider twenty five.
I've inventions and they basically constitute the chapter structure of the bark, and so you
examined manner in which stories do such things as rare,
courage or Stoke romance
or help control anger or transcend, hurt or excite curiosity, I'm not going to go through all of them, but to dispense with
submissive and banish despair and heal from grief and decide
more wisely and so in some
since its a listing of existential concerns, and so you ve, broken down
narratives in this. In these twenty five ways in this book to discuss,
the major sources of existential concern, the plague, mankind and then have put
forward, the notion that we have
stories that surround each of these fundamental concerns that help us
understand
verbal eyes communicate about and maybe see a pathway through each of these. The tick
the case of the terrible emotions, each of the terrible emotions or to foster and develop the ones that are more positive. I mean it
exactly right in an even more than that. So I mean part of what stories
say, is they give us apply a road map out of them?
is naked hoses gossip emotions, but even more powerfully to
actually shape our emotions once we understand how to use them
Sorceries can just build. Optimism originates or courage so to take the first chapter of the book, which is about courage horizontally the extraordinary work when you read the Iliad it makes you feel
Braver, it makes you feel stronger, and it can do that even when not talking about Kurt even
even when it has no message about courage. It
talking about how does it do there well homer, you probably didn't invented
caught the cheek, but we don't know Google who data beforehand. So we give credit,
auto realize that when he saw soldiers marching at war
they sang songs.
And of signs made them feel breakin. Why did those automated Philbrick, while those sound made them, feel part of a larger voice? They felt they were bigger than those
Another deep psychological level: they could feel that strength because they knew that even if there
did body died, the voice would carry on.
And that's it, that's it that's the scientific power of song. We know that to be the case, that, when people sing together inquires, they feel braver, they feel more courageous and soon homer daisy. Several. What if I could give you that power singing without you actually seeing? What am I to create a technology? A way of writing so that a trip to reign into thinking that you were singing is part of a choir and as of course,
the Iliad dots it makes. You believe that you are listening to the sound of a guy single points of the anger, that's how to get
and it uses all these tricks and techniques which I go through in the book into making your brain believe
but you are singing as part of this large of course, and so when you simply read the book, it makes you feel
over and technology, that idea that you had there that it that,
group singing unites you with the central voice whose existence transcends death, been there's a very deep religious. Like idea in there. That's that's implicit right that there is
a voice, and there are words that unite and transcendent that supersede death, and so that some that
part of that heroic pattern. I suppose that that homers,
Referring to that, you can step into. As what would you say,
active agent in in engage
in this literature, just like when you
into a movie, and you you
body. The heroes are there or the Anti heroes, sometimes that you see on
screen and experience.
The emotions that they experience for better or for worse, as this poses a form of practice. This episode is
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That's right, you're, one of the things that is to say about the homeric gods is their large shields
oh my god, you know, unlike certain extreme gnostic version of God, as you know, is to be a negative or something that is completely non human and we can't access
These guys are essentially heroes. This answer just being bigger versions of us as a grip on the same problems that we have all seen frailties. We
Jealousy rage, insufficiency
So when you join with them in this bigger voice, just as you would end in a hero in a movie.
You feel that you are becoming yourself only greater, you don't feel like you're losing yourself in your joining this bigger thing. That is your staff. That makes you bigger than waste more powerful.
with a spiritual experienced, comes from an absolutely one of that one of the basic primordial experiences of literature, which is so basic. I dont even included as one of the technologies in the book. I just talk about it. It introduction is spiritual experience.
We, the tax, you haven't deactivation your pride alone, as you haven't, noticed itself transcendent experience in which you feel the boundaries of yourself, the world dissolving between yourself that will decide.
being and that associated with increased life, purpose increase, generosity and kindness, because you no longer have the same sense. If you go, you feel connected.
others and that's a suspicion in the word literature and were scripture, far synonyms. They mean that which is red, and so, if there is one fundamental
they more fundamental, even than any that ignores. I talk about together, literature. It simply is that, since a special experience- and I do think that that is the basic and most powerful expressed- that any of us can have this work because it makes us not only-
Stronger and more purposeful in ourselves, but kinder to dollars and really that's ethics, to be stronger yourself, a kind of dollars.
the right to be more effective and more useful, socially broadly. So, ok, I want. I want to ask you a couple of
things I'd. I've done a lot of thinking about narrative. When I read, I read this
back in the nineteen eightys. The Douro, psychology of anxiety by Geoffrey Gray, and that book had a tremendous impact in the field of so
Ology, although it took about twenty years before people, I suppose incorporated at least some of what gray had proposed
and he got a lot of his ideas, although I didn't know it at the time
from my Norbert
Weiner wiener, I don't how to say his name, a brilliant, a sob,
intuition, who but work
in establishing what might be the basis of of internal,
joint abstraction and so that it could be met. Mechanized, and so I read gray at this.
to end and learned about his association with Weiner Cybernetic sent at the same
I'm that I was reading a lot of analytical, say
ology, mostly by young in his his students, and
I started to understand that the debate
EC cybernetic mechanisms that grey was discussing as characteristic of cognitive processing.
Seem to me to be the same thing as the fundamental elements of the story. So let me run this by you and you tell me what you think about this. Ok, we'll see how our thinking is meshing, perhaps in differing so I thought that that there are
are basically two types of stories in India in a functional sense, there's a simple story and theirs
a story about how stories transform and
Tori itself is actually the frame of reference that we use to proceed
the world and act with it. So I don't think we have a. I dont think we think
and then we think in stories as a subset of thinking. I think that two story is the
Cream for our thought and that frame
Actually, what produces our motivation and our emotions and decide
this is again influenced by this cybernetic work that was developed by great cheese, tremendous
knowledge of animal behavior and coordination to see was
absolute genius? I think he cited two thousand papers in the Euro Zone
You ve anxiety, took me like six months to read that book and understand it is really dance. So imagine that that in this
simple story you
and she literature as a story is a map, and I think that's the
fundamental issue. So we're always somewhere. That's our starting point.
And were always moving somewhere else, because we're active creatures, and so we have an image of the destination in mind, and so we will. We be segregate up time and space.
into a functional unit that innate that defines the geographical and temporal by
of our current operations and we specify
a target, and we even when we were
when our imagination is free floating, partly what we're doing
is playing with different spatial temporal frames of reference, so we,
be playing with ten minutes. We might be,
with an hour we met, be playing with a day we might be playing with two weeks. We can, we can expand in
contract that more or less it will, but so the map.
The map covers a spatial temporal domain, ok and then the the goal is specified, and then
We feel positive emotion when we
see any indication from the environment, environmental feedback, that our actions are moving us towards the goal and we feel and that's technically positive ethic.
because its associated with forward movement left hemisphere activation doping,
logically mediated. So we can. We can.
can conceptualize the goal abstractly interesting,
we have to do that because we can play with these spatial temporal frames of reference, and then we
see a pathway to the goal, a clear pathway that we can implement behaviorally.
it fills us with positive emotion, if we see
MR calls in the way, then that in due
negative emotion and stops us, and when we,
stop will
play around with the spatial temporal framing, making it smaller. Maybe we have to deal with the next minute or larger, trying to reckon
actualize, the territory so that we can continue our movement forward case. Oh, that's.
that story number one simple story I was here. I went there.
and here's how I got there. Then you might want to listen to that because maybe you're there and you want to get
the goal, and you need directions k that the next stories different
it it's the transformation of stories, and so it's the typical fall,
Paradise full Paradise,
rekindled story, so you have
frame of reference: your movie
Words goal something that
isn't modeled within that frame of reference occurs.
so like an alien invader. In some sense, it does
makes sense from within that current frame of reference. It blows the fray
reference into pieces. There are now
you enter a land of in some sense of narrative, fragments
the underworld in mythology. You have to sort those new
the fragments up and rebuild them read map the territory. And then then you
Build another story:
that's a meadow story. It's a story about how a story can decompose collapse into catastrophe and
Kindle itself, and it seems to me that.
there isn't anything more basic to our abstract thinking then
sort of nasty inside of stories. Verse
I can fully agree on the overall point, so any I shall be coming out next year on Columbia, university. For us
and the title is story thinking because based
My belief is that human cognition is largely narratives,
and that actually be process the world negatively
Exact way, this is actually what makes our brain function different from computers.
At a high
Whether or not computers in humans can do the same tasks. We do them different computers. Staying in these kinds of logical correlation sequences and humans to your bike, begin plots and plans
and narratives angles and those plants eventually associated with emotions, because committee
exists in a mathematical present. Tense still cannot have desire
There's nothing missing to a computer is always in the same place all the time. It's always it's always equal side of the mathematical present tat. We
humans are able, through plodding planning, to imagine a future there's distinct from the present, which creates desire or fear
over these other emotions
and so now the devotion just go together completely in human experience.
You know that's why emotions are both shaped through narrative, bananas, watershed promotion,
So you know, the kind of simple thing is the same,
we can use narratives to influence people's emotions, and this is the sort of thing that you know the somewhat sometimes positive Africa cheap little train
It's right right, exiled people or manipulate damage, doing things in one night, but the real power here is to say first of all,
How can I shoot my own emotions with their? What most?
numerous I'm not trying to shake your emotions, entrenching my own emotions, I'm trying to control my own anger or increase my own hope.
do, that might be telling my old stories in my own head and then the second factor. That is how can my emotions
to play and enable my dear? How can I develop viable
resilience to be more like
they carry on my own story. How can I complete my story? Even though I have these obstacles and to meet a function of literature, so nurture is, is relate it to stories, but slightly different
the fact that literature is really the kind of experimental zone we are pushing the ample. I mean you know literary writers are or people who are somewhat dissatisfied due to a kind of, notably in its thing, about out your time, mysteries, breaking their dissatisfied with stories. They have. You know
it's not working and they say how can I t eastwards and stronger make them do? How can I innovate them? How can I go beyond the stores divide inherited you? How can I pushed at envelope as openly what I do?
work is several years twenty five examples of how
stories were broken and then put back together again and how this technology
Like you know, any technology that humans it about, has been expanded and innovative
time to go beyond that simple I just have to get to this goal: store
which I moved you is that it that's a fundamental story, beginning at the most basic unit.
Beginning I do I put myself, but you know that
The wonder of being on this earth is that there is this possible to tell our own story and beyond that sue, build stores. We can handle the other people to empower them to tell their own stories, and it goes back to the set of dynamism. The your time
the amount and also these emotions- you talk about Tantamount- to unite us and to United in a collective story so that we can work, cooperate together towards the same man's right so that
you'll come under the same banner in some sense, and that's that shared intention quality. That's that's very specifically human. You don't see that
manifest itself much in other animals. Even the higher apes have a hard time with it compared to us
yes- and you know what a big report about there is, that its ultimately voluntary, isn't it again
we brainwashed people to have the same story is ass. You know that's to me a biological, no go. It's not. People live in its own ethical, but if we fly destroyed
so compelling, whichever someone else it empowers seven. They join our story. So let's talk about
compelling issue, because that's something that's really phenomena
really interesting, so you can get gripped by a store
right in that sort of extra rational and what I
by that, because that makes sense if its. If the story is the frame within which rationality takes place, does this being grip, biased
would be extra rational, and so you can see that when you walk into a movie theater and you get engaged, maybe even despite yourself
I'd be thinkin. I didn't want to go to this stupid moving. My girlfriend just drag me there, and then you know it's it's too far fetched for
we do suspend disbelief as if uses
Ben disbelief voluntarily, because you really don't the story grips you, and so
you're in there in your gripped, and then you know someone taps you the shoulder and says you know this isn't real new, say shut. The hell up cause I'm by March,
story right, so so
question then is from a psychological perspective is what is that
mechanism of grip and what might its biological
let's be at my senses,
No, if you watch little kids, you watch
three year old,
a three year old will be enthralled by us three and a half year old or a four year old. Now they're not
in Thrall to the same degree by a fourteen year, old and being and the reason for that cute,
didn't criticized this ok cause. I want your perspective on it, so I forgot
he talked about the zone of proximate development and the gods Ski pointed out that I believe it was fixed
its key, but it's been established by other psychologists in any case that parents use language.
automatically in the presence of children who are developing their linguistic skills,
it is somewhat more complex than the child concurrently understand, so they communicate with them. But
at the same time their communicating with them their teaching them how to communicate better by stretching their limits sites. Like that stretch, you talk about in in wonder, works okay, so
I'm goin somewhere with this, and now you got your three year old and new three year old is enthralled by a four year old and the reason that there are enthralled is because,
the four year old is a stretch for them, but almost within their grip. So what the? What the in Thrall
Does I don't know if that's word.
Being enthralled is a manifestation of the instinct that specifies the zone of proximate development and facilitates imitation
So we're unbelievably imitate of right and we what we're moving back and forth are units of behaviour. Units of perception and
We find one that is there.
our intuition censuses in design of proximate development, then we're gripped.
spite ourself by the power,
the story and that's and about
logical basis of that, I believe, is the the instinct for mimicry.
And that's, what's operating in literature is well, it's ebbs. It's it's abstract mimicry. Any of that seem employ
possible. First of all, I do your first point. I completely agree
we seek out growth spaces out usage
growth. In other words, the senses were always looking for that threshold. We can pull ourselves Ford and become more actualized.
and and enter that space, where you know we become
You don't more results. We can be and want to be so.
actually got again goes down at applauded in plant is always about the next step. Recently
applauded narrative is so powerful is again unlike logic, which is eternal plotters ways
the next step, were you going? Where were you growing and so plot naturally plugs into vaccinate?
The first in house was only watch a bad movie. If we wanted to where's go, I mean if you watch mover interest thirty seconds. That's usually effort where these characters going was
in here. You know I just isn't going anywhere right.
We're gonna walk out of here. You know what that means,
movie emotionally. Ripping to your point is essentially
Taking me somewhere, where I want to go, we're neighbors were made
I called you wants to grow its pulling me and growing me into the open.
So I agree with all that completely a hundred percent. What I think is interesting is you're gonna. This is what we do. Is it.
Different. People are we just notice are drawn aim by different aspects of stories. Endeavours stories draw people indifferently, so this always back biology. So I ll just give you a few quick top line to you tell me you by this report
go deeper, so we do not have any human brain is most interested in. Is Turkey the arranges mostly just another people?
and ass, because other people,
inevitably are both our greatest opportunism life not resolved
you know in other people we see our friends are mates. You know our potential partners are children. Whenever legacies
we also see our adversaries are coordination so jealous
notice other humans very, very quickly and prioritizing incredibly quickly and that's. Why characterises important stories.
I'll, be identify characters every develop these relationships with those characters which can be imitated in her story with their mother relationships, characters to wean approaches on characters. You don't you feel protective of characters, sources waste if you can have so. The first thing I want to get us to breathe is just the characters in the story, because their human saying that he was noticed in ITALY is the world. I mean a rate of all in this incredibly dynamic landscape. We're costs me having to shift our very winning because I've been moved to new trains, because we have to be brief, as we have issued a bill
to immediately sets what decision you invited. How is it working order? The different rules that operate here and we get us a modern society over time it ever you enter it. So you know I didn't persons home for different business space or whatever you immediately said, stockaded rules of operation, her little different, a pick them up and you can usually win behaviour and in films. This is the most obvious effect about aside I world for fantasy world immediately feel like ok, here's a space I'm going into where I can
loud person myself and explore them, but you also feel that in a very realistic story, if you just to deal with that, human environment is no different from your only the possibilities for human action in that space and that's a very exciting it apparent for us as well that the second major thing and authority
is the story itself. If a story itself is taking you on a journey that you recognise on some level as a journey, you could take and might quantity but having taken yet then you save yourself. This is a growth space for me because by going on this journey by concealing this plot, I can go to places and, most importantly, not just external places, but internal places. I can find out who I think
when I go on this journey, which I haven't gotten before Kennedy Ass. Many ass can question. Let me ask you a question
because that's kind of a mystery. So how is it so
You have the three year old, whose watching the three and a half year old in the three year old figures out or is gripped by the three and a half year old, because.
He or she can almost do that again,
see the same thing in adults, you're talking about this girl
opportunity how they?
do you, think we conceptualize what we could be so that we can see that instinctively when we,
No, what we could be, because we aren't that yet
you know what I mean is we got some conception of what constitutes the horizon, even though one
there and so
Will I get was ever so. I don't pretend to have a final answer to this end. You're gonna reasons: I wrote the book immortal reciting story, so wonderful. If we just give you a researcher- and I love ain't, gonna scare, just to dedicate their lives to do more to his mistress. That's gonna put out there that you know. I mean this is a huge mistreated. Reputable support, MR, but one thing I can say is that one of things we know about the origins of story, the human brain is, it goes blow consciousness. A lot of what goes through our consciousness is just
simply tiny parts of the story, machinery of our deeper add or that's what reasons? Why aren't you he's fraction idea just cinders pop fully funded our consciousness
you work. As a writer. Ever I mean I've done a ton of work in Hollywood,
often these ideas, this pop dread. Where do they come from where there is a huge amount of unconscious machinery in it and have always thing that is this? There's issued a processing system is operating system constantly hypothesized met a little scientists
Here's what could happen hears? What could have a guess what could happen and when all the Senor conscious brain can an opportunity with when it with one of the possibilities unconscious brain has click, it says, let's go and that the main point here is the human brain. The far sighted anxiety is created there, both about restless, entered their both about restless. Imagine
about restlessly thinking. What could be an anxiety manifests itself, as, as did the nervous side of that, the figures that it all the more negative aspects of that creating a manifestation were hopeful signs that and our brain evolve to be constantly trying to grow, because otherwise it was dead. I mean it into a kind of promoting culture which we have all you can.
That's it still you'll get it, and so the whole pressure on you biologically. Why is, can you get to them
Next, we don't noted as yet, and it can't be preordained because life around you is of all so and she was around you horrible,
and so, to a certain extent asked me this open ended as to the process. Will you both piggybacking on other people, but also leaping in a direction that they might not?
you're crazy, I've got
Some comments about that. The unconscious aspect of that too,
I was imagining away while you are talking and and and thinking about, the structure that unconscious and so
This is part of the reasons why dreams are pre cognitive,
in some sense. This is how I think it works.
so imagine that we're.
Watching people act all the time all the time in
small groups and large groups as individuals in fiction all the time, and then
and so we have this fast knowledge of of
bodied action. No, that's not.
proposition lized. It's a majestic, so
The movie that runs in your head, like a dream we can,
proposition lies all that. That's partly what a great story! Teller! Does it take a great said of images that reflect a compelling
turn of behaviour and turn
into verbal eyes propositions and that that insight, you described
So imagine you have these images of behaviour and in those images there are patterns, but we don't know what the patterns are
because they are extremely sophisticated and we're not intelligent enough to fully understand, which is only to say that human behaviour at the individual and the social level supersedes r, r, r, explicit grasp and no one would dispute
tat. That's why you have to learn about yourself, which is kind of a strange thing: right, you're you, but you don't know who you are, and so we have these
patterns of behaviour at
and then we Abstract Oda images of those patterns of behaviour and that at least
in part, the source of dreams, it's the abstract,
representation of the patterns not of the
she'll behaviors themselves, but if the commonalities, or something like that, the commonalities between behaviour- so imagine this- you talked about the greek gods is being super humans. This episode,
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There's patterns of behaviour that strike us as admirable.
Those are ignored zone of proximate development, otherwise we don't understand them. We collect. We are
Brain- and maybe this is right, hemisphere function. Our brain makes associations between these patterns of admirable behaviour based on their emotional commonality, dented absence
Out a pattern that constitutes that set of admirable behaviors. Ok, that's us
per stimulus. That's a hero or
someone who's successful at romance so
it's the same thing in some sense that go back to childhood. I was struck.
with my children were young about their affair.
see play? It was very, very interested in fantasy play as a cycle.
of phenomena now? What are they
It's very interesting about watching children pretend play is that
We tend to say that what we are doing is imitating so say they're playing Father when they play house, but
not actually imitating, because they never do exactly what they saw. Their father do what they do.
They watched their father across multiple manifestations of father behaviour and they combine that with fathers in books and fathers in movies and and they're pulling.
A pattern of thy Father and that's me,
of all these representations of these behaviour patterns, and then
fantasy is trying to
represent that abstractly images to draw out the central Spirit and this spirit
the thing that imitated and that's what drives the fantasy play, and I also think jump one more places:
That's the source of the obstruction of religious conceptions. Right
that you expect extract out the fire
other as such. It's not
drastic of any one human being its
ideal spirit that transcends the individual, that's immortal in some sense, because it manifests itself in body after body throat, time cheap. You talked about this speech.
where these transcended spirits exist at this is something almost no one knows about his work. He called that the plural mama
A plural was the space that abstracted
figures of imagination exist above
temporarily and death to bear
it's a very weird way of thinking about it right, you imagine, there's this space, that's composed of the collective imagination and
that collective imagination there are beings
and those beings outlast all of us. Now, I'm not making a case.
That thought that places material. The same way that we think of materiality, but it's a space, that's composed of very difficult.
All the all the human nervous systems, our constituent elements of that space and those characters inhabit that doesn't matter if one person dies. The spirit continues, you can
think about the spirit of evil. That way
can take about our attempts to represent it. Here's another interesting thought. You know my
my brother in law is Peter chip. Designer is one of the best
leadership designers in the world, but I've ever
trusting conversations with him about
reputation and artificial intelligence
trustingly enough- and this is to your point about the
of stories much of what
guys that demand for higher and higher and computational resources is the economics
the ability of producing art
social realities, for
fantasy simulation to play out.
Scenarios like the eternal battle between good and evil.
Yours movies, that the Marvel movies, for example the superhero movies
cost hundreds of millions of dollars there unbelievably technologically sophisticated there
there are huge audiences and so an that's part of that rip power.
If the representation of that Pleroma so to speak, so Sir
that's a lot of ideas to throw out why us, but also and to start with the item, so distorted
national intelligence component. I should say
I'm. I'm working with Eric Larsson honour on a product for DARPA on artificial intelligence is also involving certain he's dead
b of the military arm, and it's important that the human brain asked computational power is also more than a computer and computers abstract. Everything me that's the power of a computer and as a power of logic, is to think of it
in terms of symbols, but humans have this interesting interplay between the two, because there needs to be this productive tension at recent biological life between the abstraction, in particular. If you get too far into the abstract, then you end up
well, you know a world in which everything is identical. On some level were or this autumn identity is there and we shall be asking the same anatomy is, is
Essentially, the idea of Marxism or communism, the idea that the there these ultimate you know we can abstract truth
I have enough data me. I leads us towards a world in which there is no volition. No choice donated individuality, because the ashes become clear through attractive enough data. You notice a sort of
she's your size. Major sites, is that life is different from that
our world is constantly changing
so we need to both be able to ask dragged into particular us and that the strategy of racism credibly helpful for us at finding these matters. Are you talking about these kind of deeper action? Scripts, deeper characters?
Then we have the challenge of applying it to our own life and it finding out how we can tell her to our own store.
a computer is always going to exist on the level of the universal human. I mean computers, always gonna, try to go to that point. We're can take off and find the kind of essential unity psyche.
And ass humans? We resist that because we say actually we're different and indifference is meaningful and you know life also
lies in the reason that I am opposed to. Communism in our system is not on ideological grounds. It's on practical resident
work and eyes and a series of the grey eyes doesn't work carried lip. Let me through so when I was
about computation. I was thinking more about the fact that the that the economic demand
drives- the necessity for more and more potent computational power,
is because people want is to render fictional universes if more and more,
instigation and that's very interesting that that's what's driving that immense technological transformation and then this idea of the the absolute in particular. So I think that, that's being
that that is a fundamental problem and one of the interesting that's a story that I dont know how to exactly frame this properly. That problem is addressed in christian religious doctrine
elaborate lip, and so let me tell you tell me what you think about this idea in light of what you just said, so we
not already about the set of all admirable behaviors, and then we can think about the set of
behaviors that are the opposite of that
And in some sense, that's good and evil and and
as as embodied acknowledge
Abstract ideas did they abstractions they are, but as embodiment. So you know, you'll see you go
party is somewhat do something that they'll do something disgusting in your turned off by that's like, so that goes into the collection of.
vile actions and
societies generate characters, a vile action so and those are.
Strategy, they can be abstracted ultimately so Christianity, their abstracted up into Christ and Satan, for example, and so those are those are apps.
Actions that haven't completely lost their particular isolation, because they're still embodied who case up but
Christianity, interesting lay enough takes that idea, one step further. This is quite fascinating, I think, is because people so there
This there's this idea: that's extraordinarily abstract of Christ,
the hero of heroes and- and I am speaking technically here from a literary perspective. So if you Imelda made it all the heroes across
thousand years and abstract it out the central figure. This is a union notion in some sense, for all intents and purposes, that would be that's the ideal mad and if you encapsulate
within the confines of western civilization, let's say you come up with a figure of Christ says nothing too,
with the religious conception, in some sense its on purely speaking psychologically, but then.
Is the problem of the abstraction it's too abstract.
The way Christianity solved out in this weird narrative way is to make this abstraction exists.
in a particular time and place right two thousand years ago, why, two thousand years ago, why a carpenter, why in this little God forsaken town, that no one even wanted to visit- and the answer is because,
the absolute has to meet the particular that's this
the logical answer, and it my believe it's it's. It's an answer that
You say, Christianity is a narrative whatever else it might be, it's the central narrative of western culture for better or for worse, and so it and then you could you
this abstraction particularly issue play
really interesting to and in the
difference in similarity between each and dusty. His knee
abstract. It out all these philosophical principles and Dostoevsky did
tracked it out almost exactly the same principles, but they were all embodied in characters and its
interesting to read them in conjunction because do
the risk is characters act out nature.
philosophy and their more accessible in some sense in the rear. Their also brought
more and more significant, even though their notice proposition list, so there
untold wisdom in Shakespeare, right, we haven't particularised all that we haven't proposition list all of it so yeah case.
That's the absolute and the particular. So yes, it was inhabited. Christianity mean I mean I take your reading of Christianity to be, for example, compatible with star wars.
in a sense that Luke Skywalker is a very worthy I'd guy
now in the middle of his reign of course receive I mean just is weird and artists as a carpenter and Galloway radio, and yet you
the embodiment of this kind of eternal spiritual thing. You know, that's an that's it where you get that kind of melting together
three in star wars. We should just look at historically STAR wars: George Lucas, Joseph Campbell, Karl you
is all of candles. Thinking was West Union thanking all of it and the hero with a thousand faces it's great book, especially as an introduction to that kind of literature.
Yes, star wars is Christianity for atheist nerds, yes,
the fundamental, and you can't get rid of that. You can have no getting rid of that right. If you throw it out.
In one direction. It comes back in another and that something we should talk about too was very.
Story. No absolute. The one thing I
want to say, though, is that are we are most happy
when we do not perceive ourselves as inheriting and archetype of story from somebody else,.
if I were to say to you, you know, cares the article story. You're gonna end up back there. You doubt me this interesting to us emotion, you don't you want to tell us what we want to be particular and arson,
I would also say that even though
this I called. You has remained relatively concept released, the hundred thousand years imports fit for over a million. Our world is change and has changed, and there are real differences between the way the world works. Now the kinds of actions behaviors function now than there was even five hundred years, and so there
is this need for flexibility in air and sea, even as what you're talking about. I think Jordan, is this fundamental spiritual component of merit, the way in which now connected with each article says he thinks bigger than ourselves and that transcendence sense of purpose.
Is what lives us, but narrative also has its flexibility outside of spiritual immaterial world
say, ok, how do I navigate this challenge?
the challenges would Skywalker or Christ, because this Evergreen Christ didn't care. I don't, I don't think it's ok. I dont think its abstracted outside of the Spirit
I think this relates to the issue of the relationship between the conscious
our positions on the unconscious under structure. So I think that we think in
lorries. We frame the world in stores we see in stories, and this is partly why, for example, our eyes are adapted with the
rights of our eyes so that other people can see our eyes. It's really import
for us to see other people's eyes because we can see where there pointing their eyes and if we can see
there pointing their eyes. We can see what they're interested in. We can see
they value, and we can instantly in further motivation, and that makes them predictable, and so so
and it so important that every hour,
Of our ancestors, whose eyes work that visible either
made or got killed.
To really important okay, so so we had now
The shared narrative. So imagine this part is perhaps relates to the project.
The absolute as you
specify the narrative for small scale actions and those would be particularised the the canoe.
With the absolute, the larger absolute in sums
falls away, but its nested, so you could say it if you
integrated person, it's nested, it's so like
now you're talking to your listening to being sometimes you're talking to be okay, so
the story. There is what we want to have an engaging conversation and and why wealth,
The bigger story outside of that, because we want to further our knowledge about narrative, and we want to share that with other people and then
the story outside of that which is well. Why? Well, because we're both we're both
Decatur in public communicators. Well, why bother with that? What because we ve
Education, rationality and narrative are important for the proper,
shutting of human beings. Why is that relevant? Because we care about
the emotional. I expect
some people- and we want to further their growth because we were
thanks to better and what's outside of that or the idea that, while it something like the idea that truthful
and engaged exploration. Is
high value and then outside of that will at some point you get to the ultimate upstream
shit right, which is the ultimate good and, if you're an integrated person, the
Particular of your action is associated with that broad scale, abstraction. But you don't have to refer to it in the moment and thank God for that it
because it would be overwhelming it would be overwhelming
something I'll throw just sort of sideways? I think what happens when people take psychedelic substances that blow apart there late and innovation is that they start to be
cognizant of those underlying nested structures like h, they start to invade the current reality and that's what makes it saturated with meaning and pregnant with meaning, and also
sometimes produces that catastrophically tear.
will experience because if
nesting is fragmented. So maybe there's party
is motivated by bitterness and
spare and jealousy theirs:
a war, Acta, broader narrative levels and you're a disintegrated character,
and that's extraordinary, stressful physiologically, partly because you can't act out the contradictions you know without running into trouble, so
But he part of what you doing in psychotherapy all the time, and this is like
integration of cognitive, behavioral and analytics. Psychology is.
You're trying to hammer the person's narrative into
a single non contradictory, functional unit at all levels of apprehension.
simultaneously the stories can help with that so
yeah. No, actually there is actually charitable
When I talk about how literature can give you the positives, second out without the negatives,
there's a lot of evidence that literature regulation technology can deeply stimulate the visual cortex and create these
things have all been sort of. Allow you to open your mind and started put together some of the different areas them stories
that tourism is that more effective? Is that more effective when the lyrics are set to music? Yes, if so, is it
it has not been demonstrated. Neurologically do you know
Well, I don't know I don't know about. I don't worry specific tests that has said that the problems and I talked about music, but yes,
absolutely music has the same, can have the same converted but an actual yeah
this means that there are a few weeks ago. I mean I mean a lot of the work they do. I mean I do a lot of work veterans, alot worker trauma, survivors, there's no question, I mean the origins of greek tragedy or therapeutic. It was
written, largely I mean initially by veterans, performed largely for better resignation. Athens
and when you take out the story, components of activists and you use them,
A military settings? They continue to have these cathartic effects as they continue to allow soldiers to access these deepen dangerous departure themselves in.
And of the world. I in the thing tat happens in war. Is you get tragic march? Tragic,
knowledge of the water of yourself.
sometimes sometimes malevolent knowledge, which is even worse, like the people, I've seen who were traumatized, we're not somewhat
traumatized by tragedy, as they were,
I am by malevolence cause that
the voluntary imposition
of tragedy in there's something about, and so one of the things you see with soldiers is that often
they get traumatized. It's not because something terrible happened to them. It's because they watched themselves do something so terrible, they can't imagine being human and having done that, and so one
the things you young pointed out, for example, when he was dealing with people who are extraordinarily traumatized, was that help
people understand the battle between good and evil. Let's say so: that's that's. A narrative at the highest level of abstraction is too
your stand, that cost
and what would happen if you hadn't some sense had to take personal responsibility for your own malevolence and any
caught a glimpse of that right, a glimpse of that murderous malevolence that you're capable of- and you have nothing, no place to put it,
well, you can put it in a universal narrative. You can say well these powerful force
of good and evil are always operating beneath the surface and an that's been the case for the entire corpus of human history, and God only knows what it means in the final analysis, but it's possible for
individual to be caught up in that
and that's not an excuse right, but you man,
if you ve done something terrible, you and you need
recover. You need a story to put that in because otherwise it just hangs. It's like the sword of Damocles over your head. All the time who the hell am. I who are capable of that sort of thing
who the hell am I and you can't
without an answer to that question:
writing also, I would say, to move the conversation, not just everything. All this do things are lives were ashamed of wonder where that control, but we have to square with our with our own experience.
But definitely mean nothing else is at the bottom of my worldview. Is Darwin not you so
I myself down since I'm I'm an agnostic. I dont subscribed to strict good and evil anyway subscribed to pain and
and joy or something like that, and so a lot of what I had sat a propositional level, but you still admires star wars,
a lot of what I think a lot of trouble processing is actually so conscience, I mean,
you're conscious, brain and helps to have a narrative in a story you know and into that's empowering to save. This is my wife. I am to some extent engaging in offering, and there is no question that the more you can receive asylum.
Having your life, but also a lot of it is simply just in the moral circuits of our brain. You make your allotted a dumb, just
is crashing around in there and causing flashbacks in other forms of symptoms because it hasn't been processed. Let ok!
Let's talk about that hasn't been processed.
Ok, so now
you're driving somewhere. That will give you an example. I was
at the Orpheum theatre in an ally, I think it was the Orpheum downtown and I have
in downtown LA was with my wife and we went for a walk. Take we camped in some time
outside the Orpheum. When I was
this tour. I camped with my wife
these mobile homes, outside theatres, in downtown of cities, which was really weird
anyways we went for a walk in ITALY, and we walked about two blocks at all,
and where we were somewhere, where we absolutely shouldn't have been, it was not
Neighbourhood, it was seriously seriously bad neighborhood and so
we didn't have a map for that neighbourhood.
we didn't know how to act in the neighborhood and so any
territory that you can
perceive through the overly
projection of a narrative map is traumatized, and so
and so those fragments that re emerge. Those are those are
territories that have not been mapped with a narrative and there,
he's and they re emerges because the eggs-
These systems, so the amygdala in concert with the Hippocampus and and this
probably right, hemisphere function. It collects unmet
territory, representations right and
it amalgamate them and it attempts to
commonalities between them. That's part of the process,
of unconscious mapping. That leads to the ability to produce a narrative and that's part,
with dreams do so you can see if you
with people who are traumatized and you do dream analysis, you can see the dreams producing fragmented
representations of the other of that
map territory that they wandered into and
What dream analysis can do is further. That
us by making the new mapping explicit. So so,
a paper so, firstly, the fact that experience haven't you in LOS Angeles, is not surprising that some do spend more time in those areas and deny itself literally
I used to be anarchic. I think actually, for the reason you you're talking about, because it seems that is generative narrative I mean there's
was his way in which the city itself has emerged to be unmasked spaces or spacing collision with Egypt.
As a way of generating the sense of constant storytelling CASA story. Thinking consideration, I mean
other cities, are not as fertile
regard. If you look at Shakespeare in England,
thing I mean it was a very chaotic city
was not at all like Napoleon's Paris, it was not later
the kind of guy geometric shape and
why I mean, I think it enabled created on its work,
shakespearian plays, which at their rope or about these collisions
are about stories coming together. Breaking apart, I mean Lear seems to me the sort of epicenter of that kind of narrative experience,
where you have have everyone in the story having their mind breakdown but in a different way, hates because their indifferent unmet space.
Well, that's of collision. Then, at the end of the play, the previously thirsty you says, or do you gonna be automatic coherence of this euro? Add that is
the terror but the opportunity of near that's. Why we're inspired Steve jobs? I mean that's, why we're inspired Van Gogh? I mean it's a play that if you put your mind into it, it will blow your might apart. But if you can put your mind back together again, you'll have something that changes your reality and possibly everyone else's reality to join
one of the things I I've always been struck by a net academic, psychological community. Is you mentioned that at the bottom of your supposition?
work say is Darwin not young, mean,
there is a tremendous resistance among academic psychologists to take a look at
medical psychology and it's a huge mistake. It's a huge mistake, especially for people, are interested narrative and no
He'll I've been trying to climb for a very long time trying to convince people of this, because young has
name is a mystic. Let's say which is
unwarranted accusation, given what he was attempting to analyze if you're interested
story mean the hero with
Thousand faces.
there's three versions of that book. There's the heroic
Thousand faces thirst
The origins and history of consciousness by Eric Norman and theirs.
Psychological transformations. I hope I've got that right. It's you spoke
and they're all the same book there, just written by different people.
The origins and history of consciousness was written by air
and he was young, Sir most outstanding student deal world to prolong to that and said that was the book that he wished he would have written when he wrote.
Psychological transformations. I hope I've got that right.
the hero with a thousand phases is near.
Of analysis of these super stimulus that super stimuli that you described in wonder works, but all of that
Taken from this underlying investigation that was conducted by you,
if summarised best in Eric Norman, spoke the origins and history of consciousness and noted that book
widely known among academics. In big mistake now I talked to Camille Bagley about this and Puglia, us more in
the field of the literary criticism that that's that's, that your day,
and she hated yourself from, but she told me this was with no prompting from me that.
The cultural split that we see now is predicated in part upon literary critics following the guidelines have Foucault Indira Puglia believed
I actually believe that we should have
turned to the origins and history of consciousness by our new element, because he
The story of narrative right- and I believe that that's true
If you're looking for a single book that takes you into this vast corpus of analytical
about the symbolism of literature that is by far.
The most valid entry point and it's really.
something for someone like you to say this is the book and I tried my whole life to write, but couldn't also, I will be
again. I like young alive. I admired him as a thinker, and I think that he is himself a magician was story. I am, however, not of the view that there is one master story out there in that kind of union
way, I mean they there and you can feel free, and I know you want to demolish this, but so let me just
with a darwinian view of life
Are any of your life?
did you have a union. Do you have to have this idea that over time, their evolved story? If your darwinian that just worked all the time and again
got embedded in our brain. Ever you go back over and over again on the view that I hold life
has its unstable and changing, requires us to adapt
therefore narrative is flexible. Narrative allows
to adapt narrative is another word for plot is either word for plan. We can be flexible, we can shift
I have to say that certain stories don't have deep emotional and spiritual power over our brain. Those stories do, but that's one category
Stores I mean the idea of the book is to say, there's a ton of staff. The stories can do for our brain. Let's go to the stories. Let's see what makes each story different from every other story. I suppose
our table any less than whom the particularity you're gonna say. This is the only approach and to say that my approach is basically the opposite of yours.
maybe we're getting. You know. That's all I that's that's that's a perfectly reasonable objection and, in some sense
I think it's very tightly associated with this discussion that we engaged in a little bit about the particular versus the absolute, and so
you know your objection is an initiative.
Mercury earlier.
great history of religion, great storyteller, he talked about
NATO's abscond US
we have this idea from nature, let's say of the death of God, now Alia
and he isn't saying this in reference to Nature- said that one of the problems that
just systems across time faced was dead.
Sub squanders the disappearing God, and he
His proposition was, as you move, towards a universal absolute, the Alps
it gets so deep, particularised
no one knows how to embody in it- and it loses all emotional connection, the Catholic solve this problem to some degree, with the saints right cause there.
as I deities in some sense, that that and
very diverse in their behaviors, but this data,
it's gone. This problem
according to area that has plagued humanity forever, wee wee abstract out these universal ideas, but they become so abstract that they no longer have any grip right. They
who's there, narrative grip and so you're. You're objection
forgive me if I've got this wrong, is that you have to be careful about.
Stressing the absolute too too great,
Because you miss the advantages of the particular, but we can say I think that
solve that is to go back to the idea of of
Nesting of stories right is that
you want to rely on the particular because it provides you with specific.
Structures about how to act here and now, but we need fails, you
fer to a level blow that that's more abstract to drop a new set of particulars and so
The union's are investigating the base, which it would be
See it because, I would say an objection to your objection is not
We have this problem of, particularly because we have our individual personalities and there are particular
problems we have to solve, but we
after unify our behaviour under some set of abstractions, because otherwise we can exist socially and cooperatively right with
a standard set of values and morals and
this integrated internally- so we need to solve them
look particularly at universality simultaneously, and so I wouldn't
while the universality end of it because it
and in contradiction to that, it's the nesting solves the problem.
First of all, to anyone who knows me, but I will tell you that yes, animals rigorously unify person, my own behaviors and its past
that part of my own assessment. Particularity comes with facts,
But I am your flight already, and so I'm drawn it away to find the specific bribery.
Secondly, we need, I think they can easily about the two issues that my own career, my own expertise, is in a specific, and I have done a huge amount of grip in that area, because no one is really looked for back before, and a big part of my research has to say: what's actually difference not just about Shakespeare and homer, but whatever about hamlet in here was seven about hamlet, carried back what different story mechanisms are in them. If we push those forward,
Can we actually track different mental effects of those? Yes, we can, and so that's, why does not at all to abrogate the general Norton
that the future of humanity late lies in some sort of die. Sport can be better off just reading single tax,
is to say that you know there's clearly more for us to learn.
the danger generalities abstractions is always the belief that somehow we know more than we do
because we will say, oh you know, I see never for all. I know that already you know, and you are one of the points I think I would now a days is that the impact of a star wars with which is a tragic moving, their vision, star wars,
I love, but the problem is even said: oh, that solves the problem of movies. Where's gotta keep tone, that's a movie over and over and over and over Again- and that's not enough- that's not enough. I mean you don't want to make us a stake of having a great breakthrough and then thinking. That's all
raising? The purpose of the book is basically whose only hide things that are incredibly focused with each of them. Has this fact you know I mean I talk about. For example, Socrates develops its technology for allowing you to float
Efforts- or I talk about how Hamley has technology but helping you grieve for how the godfather makes you less lonely or maybe even more importantly, how their technologies that can make you more created, more imaginative, more emotionally resilience and ass. The work they are doing now is the military.
And the special operations community. So you are opening up multiple areas of of research by engaging in that analysis,
chicken already right. How can stories make us more courageous? How can they make us
more satisfied lovers. How can they make us happier? Yes, at that
Particular resolution is very good to because you need-
very, very specific hypothesis to pursue research so that
that's exactly right, and that is a philosophy and a pair of a science I mean if Lhasa, you want that unit.
You wanted you want. You know you other kind of logical coherence in the purple site. You want
say what is the most specific thing that I can test. Slackened falsify
and this is the reason why I am unpopular with literary critics, as you should know, there's many ways to be unpopular with kids. Every minute critics
Are you? Yes, I did. I were embodied some of them ass, you know,
discover different ways of being considered heretics them
particular way is to save lives, can be incredibly useful. Little shook him bill.
Emotional and ITALY,
resilience and the fact that this has been undertaken. Answer here, for example,
at the armies and commanded general staff College. There are
maybe they're passages some Kenneth, Long and Russia, but Colonel who ah have adopted this literature work and have put into the curriculum words now. Training, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of
agers, who will go on to become colonels whom God become generals. Tell me more about that and what I'd like to know that I'd like to know the particular charities of that to first of all, how did? How did they become convinced?
this was useful because that sounds like something very very difficult demand manage and then how is that
actually taught day today and in some
article manner? Yes,
This is the extraordinary breakthrough. My career in the sort of cereal rowdy break moment that I had in a minute or of what you have said is a kind of global, celebrity night ascended to sort of minors.
Would it not be a good place to stay? I would say that I do my best, but there is theirs.
That is why, because, basically so you'll ever published a book, I got a call from university. Chicago's business school actually are professor there,
but it was like, if you ever thought of applying this to business folk and if you listen,
that's your average! The regretted go to view sustainable foxes. Oh that's disgusting! You know, I don't have anything to do with practical
occasion, but also how business faculty driving scars. Didn't I dare not trustworthy
Honestly, the army, the militias, become great, with a culture of more or less
Essentially this idea there is right and wrong, and we know it's right and wrong- no job to judge people when they were nay shift outside
we're going to go back to that, I wonder why we want to go back. That's how I will come back to that yak as I have a very different view of things.
but anyway, so I said I said yes
I am very happy to work with with bit with business students, and we started applying this. We have since a blatant numerous fortune, fifty companies and ccs, and a great bunches of one who choose your charge of forty five thousand dollars a day for operational, rising, stop in the book.
at a time when he said to me. I guess he said I'm afraid
in the army, would you like to talk to him, as I said, ass lady having a job with someone in the army
we are talking with no wonder you're a heretic, that's what exactly
and I just want to say I mean I think if you, if you want to be inspired, talk to somebody
it touches on the use of any. I talked yeah and if you, if you
to be safe in your bloody university. You should thank God, that you surrounded by a ring of soldiers who you can
Look down on further immorality while they protect you,
the courage of self sacrifice we're going to die for you
the thing I do say is is is is what does that mean that it is the ultimate heroism to give up your be willing to give up your life's somebody else.
They make no money. I mean this is the other shocking thing you go through the army. Everyone always says with a military, takes all this money
those overturn, certainly true that a small number incredibly expensive machines that the military, as with the actual
so in the army and in the military, make almost nothing
and you know, their compensation pay for being under fire is something like a couple hundred dollars a month. I mean think about that. Would you take a couple hundred bucks a mouth, for somebody should argue,
real courage, real heroism. I work out the nurse score.
the nurse war is show beyond what I could even the sky-
I mean I met a day. Her job is to fly in these helicopters, frontline casualties
jump out of helicopters? Are basically two hundred feet Adieu tree Irish.
On these wounded individuals, many former civilians and Britain
actually there their lives can be saved and was even more exceptional about that to me, as I discovered she's afraid of why she can't get on a plane, but she
that much courage, but she gets on these helicopters, and does this thing and then that's me, I just everyone. I've met in the military has just said that courage that self sacrifice anyone. I gotta call when they say to me, and this is
Another thing is typical of the military is, are always examining themselves,
People can you say in your ordinary life: go around examining themselves in a critical manner,
So how do I put myself- and this is just a constant process in europe-
so let us call any should be you Angus. We have this concern in the army. We just think we're just not created
used to feel like you know, I mean it, you know we do these things and then they work and then we just kind of replicator, but how will become more adapt? It have
going to these situations where it will look. Another word for being adapted is to be
emotionally and intellectually resilience. It's me that way.
Go to a situation to be open to the situation, to the point that it can scare you and then you can break your France.
and I see that moment of breaking as an opportunity to become more than yourself a relevant.
Shirking away from that are trying to push us up on a situation being opened but being resilience.
What we have done in this case, the matter from the latter we of course number, but maybe I am at sea, one. Twenty two atta managers have colleges. We have started to implement this new creativity, training and from there it attracted interest from
special operations community and we have gone and done train a trainer, and we ve also initiated pilot programmes with the air Force and space force, and we support it.
in the Navy just out of curiosity speaking from a psychological perspective. Do you
I don't know how much research you're doing while you're doing this, but obviously- and this is something that is a way
It open field of investigation as well. We create
Poverty is associated with trade, openness and resilience with low trait nor autism mean. Is it like? Would it be
full to pre, select people on the basis of their personality, proclivity for creativity, training it
because if you have someone who's, low and openness and that's often characteristic of people in the military, because they tend to be more conservative, which means high
in conscientiousness, but lower, no Dennis soap,.
It's for your children and is it not the case, work another and other work and actually ass. An end is true. Each of us has our kind of own individual bounded. This will not like slates, where all the sudden we can become anybody. We want to be in that's completely correct. What I do,
Many people is we're here to maximize your potential to be creative and that's all
we can do in this situation of distrust the bats enough, but I agree with you that that is that the military could benefit from
from bringing on board more creates. Nothing is always is. Creativity is not taught in school.
I mean you and me I mean are our educational infrastructures. Disk battery is, is not helping
actually access so much of our human potential.
It's hard to hard to degrade creativity. A that's part of the problem is that creative people
because they're doing something new, it's very hard to lay it evaluation system on them. So there
is breaking out of the mould and in it so it's very difficult to build administrative structures around that. It is that we think we ve cracked,
Will it not about administration structure should be the only one thing that you and I think have in common? Is I dont get too high
zoo on structural reform did I get very nervous about, but the I'm about him,
individual and and and- and I just trust that the more you a power individuals to be theirselves, the more that those that the organic kind of community we're gonna grow up and around that
we have actually we have. We have ways of testing creativity were doing them in conjunction with the internal democracy, is lack of the brain creatively. It's too my partner, there's a faster John Microsoft and basically, what we do with our going to deep into the secrets.
ass. Is we bring it exports and ask them? How confident are you? This idea is gonna work
So we asked him how creative industries we discover you get a lot of expert biased. When you ask experts about whether some is created
These actions will often decide well. It is not something that south that I came up with a return to my plans and been a K. A greener came up with. You asked him how absurd it is that it's gonna work. It immediately pushes them outside.
Their expertise, rage and more assigned to identify their is. Therefore, it must be new, because even an expert hasn't seen something like that.
So if an expert thinks it probably will work with our still uncertain but still probably create, and if you think it will work with their answered- that's probably creative too, and will reduce the panels of experts who come in. We can kind of systematized process into Anti russian. It's all research,
Why were doing this with the military is? The military is actively interested. I would love to do this research in the academy, but he academies less interest in doing research to the military and less interested in the business community, so the business community
and the military that is open their doors, and even then you said yes, which is an interesting.
Personality characteristic ionized cars is I'm ok
and I reiterate my openness as you probably deduced. Not always my own benefits such as my tends to fragment that's a path with openness, radius, you get scattered. That is whoever sent my problem
because I'm not getting paid to meet a lot of people around me. I mean a lot of people who are using the second night developer are making a lot of money, but I made any money off the bigger than for each person doing research
and that's why I have kind of God it's already spaces and you're, my home.
Overall. Is that I believe, deeply n, I believe deeply in public service. I believe deeply in the ethos
Also, we cannot, we can debate, have a debate about whether or not we agree with the ways in which military supplied and he uses to which put in all kinds of things,
the idea of having a group of people whose job it is to put them?
their lives to secure our safety.
What about a limit value already made your moral stance clear about that. You said that your fundamental supposition is that the best way to make better societies is by constant
sitting on making better individuals it so helpful year control
to that, and you know what
when criticizes you, you could always ask them, while how are they contributing to that exactly William? So irritating Jordan is, I discovered in life.
You can sound smarter, faster by being negative about someone else's idea that my having your own idea so a lot of people
just like the kind of these more by attacking messapus come over their own ideas. I don't usually ask them for their own cause. I assume they don't happen to have. No, I mean, I, I think your point
ass, the way forward for human hacker. I could ask you a weird question s so,
some of that money might be really useful for you,
Very creative person- and you said you know, lots of people are making money, applying your ideas, and so I think well, you know you have to
ideas. God only knows what you might be able to do if you had your position and some money, so so
This is something that some people are brought up before. Anything hang us.
You have more money, you have more power to german hurry to do more things wanted you and I,
Thirdly- and this is perhaps erroneous- and you might want to put me on the couch- disappears near this notion of the view that I'm actually more accessed actually free
not worrying about money at all, because the
he fixed aid money LISA might seriously out of doing things they want to do and in my life
Were I said no to muddy the more I did like this is really fun and I'm enjoying myself and also I'm in power the people around me. I just be honest eyes. They gave me a ton of money, I mean I'm a gaping money as a professor.
And I get a lot of people invited to give speeches for fifty grandpa.
You know, and you do a couple of those a year I mean that's a really good answer to that. Can I'm I'm thoroughly attracted my suggestion. I make up only annual there's plenty studies that show that if you make more than you know, a hundred grand a year, you're not really substantially more happy. I have had experienced by live to see a couple billionaires up close
Yeah I want deny that it did. It would be fun to be doing every day. You know
This building. Have you learned later those things,
rapidly any one of them said to me once when he famously Angus, there's only so many waterfalls. You can see
goes down to the point. The ultimate late in life is about
finding ourselves and we find ourselves through conflict every struggle and if you have money to remove all resistance everything around, you is actually much more
RO. In my own mind the challenges I reminded you ve got it. I remind the friction in the form of life, because to me that builds me up
and so I think, a little bit of money is good and necessary because you need to say space yourself need protects the appeal recent preserved insanity. I gotta have cookie ideas and one I believe you have too much money. I mean you know this was down to a kind of my general diagnosed,
this kind of? What's what rounds America at the moment I need, I say: I'm an immigrant people haven't I notice about me, and so I have a very kind of quirky view of America chose to become an American. I was not born in
again, and so I think, like a lot of immigrants in Amerika. I almost love America more than most it's because you know I have given myself to you know what I mean.
the american dream into in America has kind of God is to ultimately uninteresting directions. Where's. The idea that the american dream is based as much money as you can get you no matter what
capitalist kind of conservative side than the other side is or America's here to provide me with security, and that's the kind of this kind of such was kind of left wing fingers Mercosur to protect me- and it is not about that at all America's about freedom. America is about freedom. I came here and I was more free. I've had more opportunity in America than I would have had before and does not say a perfect opportunity for everyone in America as perfect opportunity, we can't get up every day, give other people more opportunities, but that's the point of America is to increase freedom, to increase opportunity not to mix of richer or to be safe, and if you want any more free, a big part of that comes from being free of fear,
taking risks to be free from yourself being free from your own anxieties and your own fears, and so a huge part of what I just trying to every day is push myself to arrive lightly. Uncomfortable
and you see I'm under cover of being on this on his part gas, because it's scary to be honest about your thoughts when a lot of people less
There's you might take something down, although we might do something you regret, but I
I want that because I want to get up tomorrow morning and say you know what I should have said something or I wish. I hadn't said that other things, because, in terms of my plan, my path that will
help me, and so that's what residential honoured? To be honest is because I just don't have a chance to have very frank, open conversations like this is as much as I will buy whom, yes, it is a privilege,
that possibility manifest itself. It's been quite exciting for me to be able to call people who I'm interested in and say. While you wanna talk for an hour and a half and
They say yes, and I a car is not something I can ask them all sorts of questions, and I can learn all sorts of things and I can share
with five hundred
and people end like what a deal lobbyists amidst ridiculous. It's ridiculous and that's the real fear, because I think when people look outside
people's. Unless the greens, I argued money or wealth or celebrity, should people look at that same d with UNICEF monies Liberty is inevitably one thing it is slightly, but that's not what I would suggest a meat people is removing a frictions. Disliking call people may take me seriously,
We that's the real joy, my car position and you know that you can suddenly start to just talked almost any one. You want and share those ideas and experience that personal growth and at building of community
yeah! Well, it's such a privilege to be in a position to be able to bring discussions like this for no
two
literally hundreds of thousands of people. You know it sits and educators dream. So this is
place to stop Angus. You know we ve been going pretty hard for an hour and a half, and I like the way
this just closed and weak,
a lot of territory. I would probably like too
Talk to you again at some point. There is more things that we could discuss. I'm sure I have
doubt, will see how people
respond to this and what else they might want to hear about you gotta,
thing else you want to bring
mention her noticeable
and I'm gonna go back and recently the words that you suggested and
What am I gonna get out be uttered? An excited participates tat. Your audience would like to hear more of us kind of them go back and
that those that Norman Eric Norman he's a name worth knowing, he wrote the origins and his
of consciousness and that's a great book. It's a tough one. It's it's! It's the it's there
it's the much deeper version of a hero with a thousand faces. Many also
one called the great mother.
which is an analysis of representation
the feminine narrative representations, dramatic representations of the feminine across history, which is also a great book spit
if your interested neuroscience and instincts, because, though it though the archetypes
tied to instincts in a profound manner, and so it
representations, imaginative representations of the maternal across time. That's the great mother, too great book
I will read it and then only next time I could come back. Maybe things with special operations will have it. That's all that item the work under way with anti fragile I'd, maybe some of that war.
so about great every we'd get into that died. Love that all right,
very much its pleasure. Talking to you
good luck with your work and you're writing an end, you're educating, all of that and work
with the military. Thank you thank you
Transcript generated on 2021-12-01.