Welcome to season two episode. Thirty seven of the Jordan Be Petersen. Podcast I mean, we'll be dad's dotterine collaborator. Today's episode is a twelve rules for life. Lecture recorded Zurich on January 19th, two thousand and nineteen I've named it. The struggle between chaos and order. Just lecture was recorded. When I had my ankle replacement, re replaced. Dad came with me to Zurich to basically help cook this. Only meat diet doesn't make it particularly easy to stay in hospitals. So we brought me steak and did While I was morphine up in bed. It wasn't that bad of a time actually and the surgeon has managed to fix my ankle as much as a replaced ankle can be fixed. Hope you enjoy the lecture. Exciting news daddy's launching his first e course December. Seventeenth, it's available for pre.

They are currently for cyber Monday alot of people than asking us for a more structured in condensed resource where they can learn about personality without needing to spend. Thirty hours watching videos, reading resources etc? So earlier this year we recorded a new video series. That will you package is an online course with videos supplementary materials, including lecture nodes, additional reading materials and resources, transcripts of free licence to the understand myself, personality assessment and an Some discussion group all designed to give you an in depth. Look at your personality. This is my the topic in psychology. So far anyway, it's worth looking out, if you ve been intending to learn about personality and want to do it in a concise and structured format, go to Jordan, be Petersen, DOT, com, slash personality If you're listening to this, while our cyber Monday promotion is going on, were currently offering a pre sale of a thirty five percent discount on the course until Friday, December six if you're interested. This is a great opportunity to get it at a lower price. Hope

You find it interesting. I did I sat and all the lectures and fun fact I've, given every person I've dated dad's personality test. We doubt the fools early right, check out the course and Jordan Be Petersen, DOT, com, slashed personality, I'd like to talk, about Elysium and an eighty elysium is company and its run by people from MIT that attempts to translate break through scientific advancements in aging research into health, their product called basis, which the first and only dietary supplements based on twenty five years of research in the science of aging By giving you more n a d and activating what scientists call our longevity genes, we need an idea from mitochondrial function. How we make energy for DNA repair system violating our sleep, wake cycles and those levels decline in our bodies by as much as fifty percent by middle age. This week, listeners can get.

Thirty five dollars off a six months subscription by using code. Jordan, additionally, leasing health is giving listeners a limited time offer of eighty dollars off a one year subscription by using coal Petersen for the month, November. This is their best offer of the year visit. I basis, dot, com slashed, Jordan, try basis, dot, Slash Jordan and the promotion Jordan. Forty five dollars off a six months subscription. And Petersen for the dollar's off a one year subscription. That's a great deal a groundbreaking supplement the struggle between chaos in order of Jordan He Petersen Twelve is the life lecture. Thank you. It's good to see that you outnumber the

protesters is very nice to be here in Zurich. I'm here for a couple of reasons. One reason obviously is to have the opportunity to speak to all of you and bottom I'm also here. I was here because my daughter had surgery in Switzerland this week she had ankle replacement when she was sixteen and it didn't work perfectly. Although the mechanical joint that was pretty and worked very well, but her bone structure couldn't handle it exactly right, and so she hasn't been as mobile as might be optimal over the last ten years and if in a fair bit of pain, and so she tracked down gentlemen, the physician who made the joint and he's swiss and works

and works just outside of basic basil, Basel, yes, how embarrassing and anyways she had this joint replaced in fixed this week and that seem to have gone very well, so were quite happy about the quality of swiss engineering. At the moment, so yeah no kidding so since. Was coming here, I thought I would also take the opportunity to two to deliver. This lecture see how that went, and today I talked to a couple of journalists. One from developed got that approximately right yoke and vague, nor was the journalist, and here

May this annoying question- and I didn't give a very good answer: that's why it was annoying. Who is a good question, but annoying cuz. I didn't give a very good answer. It's really hard question he said, and so I thought I would talk about that tonight, because its did relevant to the substructure of the book, twelve rules for life and its a crucially important shoe and it's very complicated. It's not like, I understand very well, that's the thing it so hard to grew it's hard to grapple with, and he said in your book. You identify women s, chaos and men as order and how do you do that and, as I said, it was a difficult question that kind of took me back, because It takes a long time to explain that I've wrestled with it for a long time, so I'm to try to answer that question more intelligently, that's try to do that for like seventy minutes and see. If I can come to some more

concise conceptualisation of that. So the first thing is that I don't think that that's my idea like I think that that's my observation that that's how stories work now Could be wrong, it is highly probable, but but I My reasons for thinking this way, and so I don't convince you of them, because I'm actually not that interested in I'm not interested in convincing people, I'm interested in figuring things out and if that people find the way that I figure things out convey, well, that's all well and good, but if they dont well, that's fine too, because there is always the possibility fact the probability that my thinking has errors in it and our most to find out what those errors are. You know if you have a map, you think you're you're start structures like a map, and you want your map of the world to be accurate has otherwise, when you use your map, you wonder into a pet and unless you're you know

climb to wander into a pet and be better. If your map was is accurate, Possible- and so you should be turned to find out constantly where, you're, not so accurate in your mapping and that's a lot better than trying to convince people are trying to convince yourself that you're right, you know you can convince yourself that you're right and walk right off the edge of the world. Now not that awful. So I'm trying to make my map better you, no one and ended A tremendous amount of our cognitive structure is something approximating a map and the rest. For that is, we have to make our way in the world right. This is part of the tension between in the religious viewpoint that say in the scientific viewpoint, because the religious viewpoint, part of the dramatic viewpoint, part of the narrative viewpoint, part of the literary viewpoints all associated with stories. It has to

with how you map out the world and how you make your way in the world in the scientific domain has to do with the nature of the objective world and their sisters. Truth in both those approaches, and it is the obvious how they interrelate. It's also not obvious, which truth is the more fundamental. It's certainly the case that you have to contend with the objectively. But it's also certainly the case that you have to make your way as a living creature through the world and that you need guidelines to do that in and so. So I'm interested in the structure of of maps. I'm interested in the structure of story I think a story, a map for the same thing that stories kind of map in Aceh. We presented you with a compelling way of perceiving the world and acting in it, ok and now so that that that doesn't seem to be contentious that idea. Why else would you

listen to restore. If it wasn't compelling, you wouldn't remember. If it wasn't compelling, we wouldn't tell each other stories if we weren't come. Held by them, we wouldn't be compared my stories if they weren't useful stories and heroes and adversaries in conflict we obviously imitate people is stories. We tell stories about heroes and anti heroes, their targets for emulation and imitation, so their guide, their guides to to exist That's what a story is. The story has a moral which is the point of this story, for you perception and action. That seems, I think, that's solid, that that set of ideas and their story isn't the same as a scientific description. That's obvious! If you go watch something like sleeping beauty, the Disney movie, you don't think that's a scientific treatise. You think it's something else it all even think it's true necessarily, but you go watch it in them.

Be. Some truth to it must have some purchase on the world because, while unless you just think it's mindless entertainment, but the then why are you entertained in that mindless way like? Why does Mode of presentation of information grip view doesnt, really observe the problem, it's entertaining. I would say the reason that its entertaining to go see some like a movie, is because movies are the story is so deep and so important that you're actually biologically prepared to enjoy it. It's actually indication of its dep the fact that its entertaining that its gripping, then I would say that the most gripping and memorable stories. Are the ones tat get retold and remembered, and our ancient stories are like that they ve been around forever. Well. Why? While they grip ass in some way, and so we need to understand them, but perhaps we don't need to what, but it seems

it seems useful that we might make the effort to understand them, and so on. A long time trying to get to the bottom of stories, because I think stories the bottom of the way we think there are the bar, of the way we act were now. Still inside stories. You don't even when you Talk to someone about your life, you tend to turn. Into a story, and so stories are at the bottom or their close to the bottom So, what's it like down there at the bottom, it's not story. World isn't the same as the object of world. It has its own characteristic: straw, sure it relies on metaphor, for example, in science, doesn't maybe does when you were generating hypotheses but you're trying to get away from metaphor? You trying to get to something clearer and more and more objective whatever. That means. Story relies on metaphor? What metaphors we'll have to be met

for the understand, because otherwise they're not good for anything. So what are they? the metal metaphors right. So I think the fundamental metaphors are something like chaos in order and the and the force that mediate between them. That's the fundamental narrative structure, and so we might take it apart. Little bit the world's made out of chaos in order I mean what means where you experience the world right each of us. It's not really description of the objective world. It's a description of universal human experience and so on or how do you define order? How do you know when you're in order it's easy? It's not actually it's very hard to figure this out. But when she figured out it's easy order is where you are win. What you want is happening, really precise definition. I'd I'd like I love

but over the definition and its four for really for decades, even though it so short because order isn't what you expect, for example, which is psychologists like to think that we predict the world and that we that we were that we're trying to make what we spect happen, because that keeps a stable and calm. You don't want down expected to emerge to dramatically like fair enough, but it isn't that you're running around trying to make the world turn out the way you expect. It's that you're running around trying to make the world turn out the way you want it to turn out and that's a crucial difference, because the fact that you were something pulls motivation into the story right if it makes you more than just a cold cognitive calculator, says well you're living thing. There's things Desire and in value and you're trying to make them manifest themselves in the world, and so how do you know when you're in order? It's like you act and what you what happens that doesn't mean you right. Who knows if you're right, that's that's that's a whole different issue. But it means that you're you're.

You're in the domain of order. And how do you know that we're here one way. You're, not terrified. You're not anxious and why? Why not? All it's, because apparently things are under control. The fact that you what you want indicates that the definition of being under control in a like. If your talk to someone you haven't conversation within the conversations going in there aging manner its flowing. It's like you're out, anxious and terrified about that, because its working, if you're at a party- and you tell a joke and false flat you know everyone's embarrassed. It's like well, then you'll do not completely psychopathic the. Be embarrassed as well, and you feel I made some mistake. I don't know where I am my mouth, is wrong and exact anxiety, moves up to grip, you and freeze you, because you're, not where you thought you were you're, not order, where are you when you're not an order, while you're in chaos its every antithetical order and that's where all help break

sluice. That's chaos, you no one and those are real domains and it's really useful to know about them, because you need to know whether you are in order or whether you're in chaos. You need to know, for example, that being in chaos is like that's that's what would you call it that. That's a canonical human experience to be in chaos when you don't the promotion of work that you ve been working on and your discipline Frustrated and things fall apart on you, that's chaos. You know when when someone you loves, betrays you, that's chaos, You betray yourself, that's chaos, you know if there's an earthquake or a flood or a revolution or riot? That's all chaos. That's that's an existential place. And we move between order and chaos constantly and our lives, hopefully not catastrophically, and so So chaos is where you are, when what you want is not happening, and then that can happen d

levels. You know it's like. You can go home in the evening and and you dont get a warm welcome from your wife. Maybe we were hoping for that and well that's a little Kay It makes you feel anxious, but that's a whole different as a whole then a divorce announcement or to come and find your partner, making up with someone else, that's a real catastrophic, can cataclysmic descent, you mean that you wanted the relationship to be maintained in maybe maybe there's a certain amount of of of what would you call it self satisfaction at discovering that if you didn't like the relationship to begin with, but you know you know well, people are complicated, you know so, and you never know you might have driven or to it or she might have driven you too at who? Who knows, because we're certainly capable of doing those sorts of things just for the joy having the martyrdom you know so. The great stories talk about chaos in order you they talk about the movement between those two

even more importantly, so the story, the exodus, for example, Moses, the story of Moses an exodus everyone virtually everyone knows that story. The order is Egypt. Initially, that's a team any, because order can be tyrannical. There can be too much of it, and so the Israelites relate escape from from the from from Egypt. Escape from the tyranny. And then what happens? What use gave from tyranny in everything's good? It's like! No, that isn't how works at all. You escape from tyranny. Could be the tyranny of your own thoughts right a tyranny of your marriage. It could be the tyranny of your previous job you escape from it. You think well now My problem solved is like no, it's not it's like forty years in the damn desert for you, because you escape from you escape from half a logical order at your peril. Bang, chaos and everything falls apart and chaos. That's why the Israelites worshipper false idols in the desert. An orient themselves again their chasing after new values? They don't know what to do

something emerges Recreate order and a new order emerges and that's the story. That's human stories order collapse. Chaos the underworld recall, the new order and you I'd, say well The world order is the chaos and say: well, it's both, but it's one other thing to its: it's the ready to make them movement between those states. That's the third thing, and that's important to know, because you might think you might be tempted Think that your order and to identify with that you know like that article nationals do that the identity politics type. Do that, like here's, my identity, here's my order. That's me like, while no it's not not you because you're chaos to or at least your experiences, but then not just chaos either. That's a good thing, because that's intolerable right! It's you can't

You can't live on a non stop diet of the unexpected and unpredictable, especially its involuntary, adjust its deadly ditches burns you to present. We can manage it physiologically, you might feel that your chaos and everything else is too, but that's no good. That's nihilism in despair and hopelessness and frustration and disappointment, resentment and- and here trade and anger, and it's like that's a mess man, So you don't want to be that either and you know, but you can The thing that moves between those states and that transcends them, you know and part of the I The symbolic idea, for example, that embedded in idea of the death in resurrection- is exactly that. Is that you're, the thing that can dissolve and Constitute an that's, that's, that's it We thing you need to know that you can ride out those movements between those different states, I dont know if there's anything more important you can know than that, except maybe this is that. That's also that that participating in that movement is best

voluntarily, that's associated with the entire extensive meaning. That's what meaning? That's what meaning guides you too, if its functioning if you are functioning honestly and in the end think for meaning is working. It puts you there, it makes you that thing that make that transition- and hopefully it's a can, it's it's a journey like this, but its upward into order catastrophe reconstitute from at a higher level of order, You learn from your mistake, and so when you put yourself ACT together, your together than you were not inevitable. That happen, you can make him real can never recover. It's just done, because the chaos is real can be deadly, it's no joke! It's nothing to our common lightly, but you know you're, like life, is punctuated by painful bouts of learning. Let's put it that way, You can almost you can be almost certain that you ve been learnt something worthwhile! If it is it,

droid and reconstituted part of you is partly why people are distance learning, because who wants to go through that? But storing up the catastrophes for the few sure as an alternative. Refusing to change when anything happens. Well that it out just me better to one day things will collapse and you will not recover better to keep yourself up to date, the little deaths and rebirth that you need on a constant basis. Chaos in order? Well, how do you represent those. We can't just tell a story about chaos in order means hardy. To just explain it. It's not. You need to represent it somehow and the thing is we need, represent this. I mean us as human beings. We need to represent this in some sense long before we figured it out. I could I just told you articulated representation tat we have a long time to develop that representation, and then it took and I'm

in building on ideas of many many other people in these ideas have been developing for thousands of years, and so it's not like this is an easy thing to articulate it's very difficult and there are other their approach. Roma, dramatic or artistic pro drama to this if ideas its partly what artist but it's what storytellers and dramatists do they dramatized in the abstract, out the crucial elements- and they present Them- in N n n n n n in the form of personalities that that would be a good way of thinking about it. And it's because we tend to. We tend to the extent we tend to experience reality as if its characterized by personalities- and I think that's because most work well, social primates for crying out loud? Most of what- in a have interacted with throughout our evolutionary. History are other social primates like the price, reality for human beings is actually personalities it at least to the degree of

Our primary reality is ourselves and other people. S shaped our cognitive architecture. We can look at the world is, if its personalities and so chaos and order manifest themselves to us in personified form. It's not like there interpreted, that way. It's not like. We know what chaos in order, and we we tribute personalities to them. It's that they reveal us there reveal themselves to us through through there Metaphor of personality. Ok, so let me give you some examples: I've I've spent a lot of time on, King three fundamental stories more than that, but these are the three that I think I've got delve most deeply into. What Them is creation met from ancient Egypt. One of them is a creation myth from ancient Batavia. These are foundational stories right. They they oriented cultures for thousands of years, unbelievably power. Stories in the end they stand. They there

determining effect on the phone the mental narratives that died us so not trivial stories. At least there no more trivial trip. Let's say that our culture in the story and genesis as well, which is a variant of of the of the Mesopotamia story in particular or or very it's good, good enough variants, good enough idea, so in Mesopotamia, for example. In ancient Mesopotamia. There are two fundamental forces at work at the beginning of time. One was characterized is about, one was characterizes absolute and ten. That was notice of salt water, tears in chaos and she was often presented as something approximating a predatory reptile. So now what why that well,. You're in order and things are going well right, I'd, say for a stroll in the park.

And it's a sunny day. Everything is working out for just nicely, maybe you're holding hands with someone. You love and you isn't life wonderful, and this doesn't necessarily happen in switzerland- It happens. Sometimes in Canada how about a grizzly bear appears and you know you have bears here, but there are little Billy bears six hundred you nos seven hundred pounds, a grizzly bears, two thousand pounds and it is the most powerful, predator, so alike. Put a grizzly bear in a cage with tigers which they did in their late. Eighteen, hundreds in North America, the grizzly. Bear just kills the tigers, that's that and it kills lions. It's like you, don't know other predator. We stand a grizzly bear, and so is Grizzly Bear appears in your path. You are not in order and your map writer, you think that's funny psyche. Because you know that's definitely evidence of error. You thought you were

one place and you're somewhere completely different, especially if the grizzly is there and her cup are there. It's really not a good situation, so what's the worst error, you can make how bout accidental encounter the carnivorous predator. How would that be How about that as a symbolic representation of being off the path? Imagine r, r! archaic ancestors huddled around the far here. Here's here's a story. You know there was this predatory cat was discovered a while back. It's been extinct for a very long period of time and it had very large teeth on the top and one very large teeth tooth on the bottom, and it turned out that its its jaws size, was exactly the size of an ancestral here. Skull right so would put teeth here and one here right, and this and like we ve, been praying

a porn by terrible things forever, millions of years? You know long enough so that the the the image of the predator, especially the reptilian, predators, burn d into our psyche. No human beings are prepared to be afraid of snakes. For example, you can teach fear to people, teach fear of snakes, two people very rapid, and that was that was the initial IP this is. But the newer daddy indicates that it's not that you are prepared to be afraid of snakes, you're, just afraid of snakes and some people. You can get over it. But it's there. It's instinct you and it's also the same with Japan, these by the way, Jabez chimpanzees never seen a snake forever like a little cage. Full of Jim big cage full of shit. Pansies and you bring in a snake. They hit the ceiling, and then they look at this but they're not happy there in Thralled, but they're not happy even have a specific snake cry. So if chimps in under a snake in the wild they'll make the cry, and other chimps are coming

look at the snake, assuming you know it's a impressive sort of snake to sit there and look to gaze at their transfixed by it, like. What's so why would chaos be Rep ended by a predator. What's because, if you encounter a predator, you are fortunately in chaos, and so that's the symbolic wrapper station now, this goddess TM out the goddess of chaos, question where it is order come from while comes from chaos. So what does that mean? Well, you have to learn things right! When you don't know anything you weren't,

What you want, because you don't know what to do if you're, very, socially awkward and you go to a party- and you don't know what to do. You dont get what you want. It's a chaotic situation and so what you have to do to fix that you have to face the cat. And you have to turn it into order. You have to learn how to manage the chaos so that you now get what you want. That's so what tat? is that order emerges out of chaos. Ok, that's idea and they need it, a universal truth better order. Urges out of chaos and its universal truth that you partaken that process that that's what that's? What you do. If your fundamental of being in the world is to act such that you make new order emerged from chaos. Sometimes you do the river some. You tear down old order, so new chaos can emerge and be rebuilt, but we'll leave that is for a moment that's another variant of the fundamental story or

Comes from chaos, time out is that mental God she has a husband, Abu he's, the goddess of fresh he's, the God of fresh water, and the idea is that. The intermingling of the two constitutes the original active creation are so. Why is that the case. You encounter chaos and you make order and all that means is that you learn new things by encountering what's new and then maybe it me, that you learn. New things best buy voluntarily encountering what's new and then It means that you learn new, deep things by voluntarily encountering what's truly chaotic and new right, so there relationship between how much chaos you're willing to contend with and how new order, you can conceivably produce, but it's a real. He game, because you're you're you're dealing with

things that are truly unknown, you're dealing with things that are genuinely outside of your camp and, if you make a mistake. Well then, you end up more dangerous. The Mesopotamians positive that the original active creed She was a consequence of the intermingling of Abu in time The intermingling of chaos and order, ok, so. When you learn something new you're, not blank slate. When you encounter it right like when you meet someone new, maybe you're, trying to make a relationship with them. You use all the information that you have about previous relationships right, you take them off that you ve already established, and you use it to to structure the The new situation that you're in that you're in countering and so and then maybe and then maybe something who can come out of that? You know like legal reading a book. And you're learning new things but you're

You're, using all the knowledge that you as a literary creature as illiterate creature. To do that, and so in the counter with chaos. There's always order at work. There's always order at work That's the mesopotamian ideas that things emerge because of the interplay between order and chaos or, and chaos, as I said, is represented by this dragon is feminine dragon and we haven't got to the feminine part yet because it's it's hard to get there and this orderly structure. Abu, ok, that's one example: So that's one example of the of the of the metaphor: feminine masculine, used as representation of chaos in order here's another one. There is a need, she's story or run through quickly. The story of a serious and and set, and This and horse to great story, and so is the story in brief form

a series of God, but he's off the Faro at the same time, so you can think about him as the Spirit of the Faro. In some sense, you can do and think about him as the concept of king or emperor, you know you can have many things in succession, but they're all the king the king is an abstraction of what's permanent ass the set of kings and or Cyrus's abstraction of, what's common across the set of ferrets, let's say it's and its part of the Egyptians attempt. The ancient Egyptians attempt our attempt to understand what, What what constitute a genuine sovereignty, genuine authority, not power, but authority, competent authority and and the foundation of the state? What how should the state before a serious is the answer to that now or serious was a great king. God when he was young and he established the egyptian state. He rested it from Kay Let's say now he's old, so the story goes and he's

the problems that something old houses corner out of date is kind. An even more importantly, he's wills. We blind people This is to see a man that's worth just being all and so what idea, the idea there is that structures of order represented Cyrus have two fundamental flaw: One is the age. What you know is always slightly out of date. Your cultures also construction of the past. So it's not. What do they say? military hundred percent prepared to fight the last war right and that's that the situation that we're always in but hopefully buying part, that's even worse. It's like you could know, but you refuse to engage, Then that's! That's a deadly sin. It's it's! It's a worldwide troop of mythology that. The proclivity to turn a blind eye bring

down the reign of destruction. That's why, for example, story of Noah when everything is flooded. That's the return of chaos, because of the sins of man. It's there, inability to aim and hit the target its willful blindness brings things down around us, so so does age, but it sped along by their anyhow Cyrus, has a brother set in set, that's the setting sun, it's the forest devours consciousness at night. It's it's! It's everything, dark and corrupt, and set the name set, become Satan through the Egyptian, the coptic Christians. So so that so our concern modern conception of the of the of the. What would you call a train Send it personality of evil is emerged, at least in part. This underlying egyptian mythology? Cyrus had has a brother SEC. What does it mean

What means that the kingdom is always threatened by some malevolent force always and that's that's so it so it's so useful to know that right to know that existential. Is that what you have a structure, whatever it is. It has an evil twin and you have to keep an eye on that thing, because the The twin can always dominate this. This this that's emerged of the patriarchy. Let's say the oppressive patriarch is a recasting Of the same story there's no Cyrus, there's just set, is just the and tyranny and people can aid to that because structures are tyrannical and that's the pathology of order is the tyranny of structure. That's the pathology, Ology border anyways Cyrus doesn't isn't willing to comprehend the depth his brothers malevolence and he ignores, and so one day goes set chop so Cyrus up and distributors pieces all around Egypt,

kill him because he's a god, but you can make it damn difficult for him to get its act together and that's it Actually, would it since I use that metaphor on purpose to get your act together. You know because in it It draws on the same metaphorical idea to get your act together, means that your scattered into your constituent parts- and maybe it's because you ve, been laid low by us and malevolence. You no longer have your act together have to gather up your pieces. You have to put yourself back together. Well, that's that condition of OSIRIS scattered throughout the the the kingdom set rules, Many of you have seen the Disney movie the lion, king, its assent, story. You know you have the king move faster, here's an evil brother. He doesn't pay enough attention to him and his evil their kills them and everyone understands that story. It makes perfect sense, and so I'm telling just to show you how these ideas echo across time. You know

their part of the way that we look at the world of Cyrus falls apart. Seth rules, that's not good that's not good. It means the tyrant has control what happens. Third character appears ISIS thin he'll, queen of the underworld, chaos, why ass. Well, because chaos emerges when things fall apart by definition, personified the egyptian story by ices, queen of the underworld, she's, also the spirit of renewal. Right now, that's part of a hint why chaos is feminine because new, things emerge out of chaos? What's the fundamental criteria of femininity. Is that who things emerged from the feminine radiated, it's the definition of the family. That new forms emerge from it. You know when people were critiquing, twelve rules for life said well

associate women with chaos and men with orders like no it's femininity with chaos and masculinity with order. That's not the same thing and chaos isn't all bad. It's in there it's the antidote to tyranny, for example, an order isn't all good because it can degenerate into tyranny. So there's nothing pejorative about the metaphor go. Identification is just a matter of tomorrow. Understanding the structure of the world iris falls apart? Isis appears. Why is that the queen of the underworld, always appears when things fall apart, that's where you are when things fall apart is so useful to know things fell apart. Well, where my you're in underworld. That's a mythological idea, What do you do in the underworld? You actually need to know that because european Underworld, it's like things, are gonna turn on you. But ok, you what're you just when that happens, you're done so. I know

You better know how to orient yourself. There. Isis appears on the scene. She it is all over Egypt for or Cyrus's missing parts, and she finds its fellas and she makes yourself pregnant with it. What does it mean? Well, you know what it means. You know what it means its. Your life is going on along in something Knox you for a loop, and maybe it's malevolence right, maybe you're betrayed someone. Has that that's harsh, you know it could be made you get cancer. Maybe you get some other way, This your career falls apart, that's all brutal and in or maybe it's a natural disaster, but to be betrayed. That's really brutal and that's an income with malevolence and that can that can break you into pieces? It's like maybe recover from that right, maybe but maybe recover from. You look back and you think you know hell of a lot wiser and more put together than I was when that happened as little too naive for my own good, and it was a

a descent down into that article underworld propelled by the EU that I didn't understand, wouldn't look at, but now that I, reconstituted myself and I'm wiser. I can see that that was the bird of something new, the new you let's say: well, that's the alternative. You either if birth, to a new you in the underworld or you're done cost oh you it's fragmented and maybe you can pull your pieces back together and maybe not, but it's good to at least know that that's the root out and that's the possible Is there something new that could be borne? If you let go of what was the past their better be cause? That's your life. Anyways ISIS makes herself pregnant and she gives birth to Horace and horses, the hero, he's a visionary hero horses work and he can see falcons. Can

better than any other creatures. Human beings are very good vision, but we we don't see as well as birds of prey. So the bird of prey. The falcon is a symbol of vision. Now you remember that oh Cyrus was wilfully blind we're horses, the apple opposite Horace looks at things right, and so That's that's ideas, there's an idea for your things fall apart or new Well, maybe you were wilfully blind what's so? What did you do about it? We should open your eyes right, you should adopt indication with Horace. Let's say you see what's right in front of you, but what's right in front of you that which you do not wish to look at. That's the horror of it. Horace grows outside the state right, because it's real by his evil uncle. What does that mean? Well, we all do that to the degree the state is ruled by our evil uncle in alienated to some degree from from the social structure. That's why the idea of the oppressive pay

Turkey, for example, carries with it some compelling weight in all the social extracts its pound of flesh and it's not structured perfectly and so to the degree of there is a mismatch between what our society is and what it should be. It's easy for us to feel alienated from it to grow up in something approximating the underworld, but hopefully we do that with our eyes open, it's your mom! our duty to do that. Why moral duty, because the concept, of keeping your eyes closed when you're in the underworld are fatal or worse, you think what what's worse than fatal? That's easy a lot of suffering followed by fatal, is alive worse. Yeah really like. If you think death is, worse thing there is, you are not using your imagination because is not the worst thing there is it's no picnic, you know, but that's not. The point is that there's plenty of held to traverse bite before death, if you're in cautious. And if you want to.

Walk that route, keeping your eyes closed when they should be open, that's a good way to find that path Horace. Mergers and he's the visionary. He sees he's willing to look at malevolence. Okay, so there's another thing: there's another thing: you know man, I've talked to my clients. You know I had this client ones, been brilliant female lawyer, a tariff. If our own intelligence was quite interesting, because she was a very nice person, a very agreeable person and the naive person and. Hundred her niceness in her agreeableness, underneath it naivety, was part of a package. It also enabled her to make close personal contact with your clients, and so it was a positive element. But there was a negative element to because it later wide open for exploit, asian by people who were malevolent and one of them tried to take her out? They basically took her body of work. They stole it from her. After shoe with it Areas of underhanded maneuvers and then basically, when she

upset about it generated the story that she was mentally unstable and it was he'll trouble, because the person who did this had the upper hand- and so it took us like two years to sort that out was really troublesome and her television. You know it would give her here. It's about the miss behaviour of people in her corporate office, but you didn't like it because it was like while no nice person, whatever think those thoughts like yeah, fair enough or more. Maybe more accurately no naive person whose themselves open to exploitation by malevolence. Whatever think those thoughts like me but you want to stay that way. You want to stay naive, so you can be splendid in that manner? Rihanna wake up you! Wake up! You look at things. You don't want to look at And so she learned to allow her intelligent, intuitions that were shining light on the dark corners of the world to two to manage

Itself more fully, and so she became harder and tougher, but better so Horace. He wakes up he's away he can see, he's the famous Egyptian. I he's the falcon he can see set because back and has a fight with him daddy of evil and that's no joke and horses, a God and so is set Horace hidden fights, horse fights with set and during the fight surf terrorism, one of his eyes. What does that mean? It means. Even if you're awake you. Out of even if you're awake, even if your pay attention if you look at things that are dark, you risk damaging your consciousness. Right. It's a warning. It's like you have to look, but beware What you're looking at is enough to It's enough to undermine your consciousness.

Horace, emerges successfully, gets dieback any banishes set too never regions of the kingdom no killing There is no getting rid of the proclivity for malevolence. The best you can do is keep it under control for some period of time. He takes his eye back and think well, put the I back in his head and then he'd became, but that isn't what he does. He goes down into the underworld and he I'm Cyrus's father whose exists down. There is a sort of semi dead shade and he gives us viruses, I eye no Cyrus wakes up, because he can see again and then two of them go back and they rule jointly and it's so plates income. Cancel billing brilliant. That story, the ideas well in under you, wake up you see in any new in you, you you, you encounter you encounter the spirit of malevolence? You see what made you life go wrong.

In all your own inadequacies that say your own moral inadequacies, euro, foolishness, your own blindness and maybe the malevolence of others. Now there's other reasons to fall apart. Sometimes you just to her. Let's say: in an innocent bystanders in a series of catastrophes- and I'm not talking about that- that happens to people, but but this is a deeper and darker, very it of the pathway to failure you're in the underworld, you figure out how the hell you got there and one of the first things. You're gonna have to do if you're going wake up and you're gonna see as you could have to contend with the fact of malevolence. Yours societies, the social structure, other people, all of that, and that's it

from a typing experience, even if you are prepared for it. What's the consequence, if you manage it, you revivify your culture and you develop a capacity to be sovereign. That's the egyptian story. It's an amazing. In the egyptian story or Cyrus's male masculine and ISIS Chaos is they are now obviously emerges in this story. Has a revivifying force while chaos, is the source of new things. That's part of the reason that its feminine source of new things, ok, Why is order masculine? I think it's because Human hierarchies are fundamentally masculine.

If you look at our relationship to chimpanzees, for example, our closest biological, relative chimpanzee social structures are fundamentally masculine so that the basic social structure is stratified, males now the females theory in there, but the most dominant individuals, are male. We, that is the case with human beings. Well but certainly was the case for human beings up until the very recent present, and I think the fundamental reason for that was that, while how could women paid. They were so overwhelmed by their reproductive by their involuntary reproductive responsibilities, that the hierarchical structuring had to be left,

essentially to the men, think what is that a contentious proposition? Well, it's what it's, what the radicals, that our society is fundamentally patriarchal. Now their claim is that fundamentally, oppressive and patriarchal, which is a completely different claim, but they're they're inclined this would include the people who are criticising the manner in which I'm using symbolic representation exactly the same symbolic representational structure, man organised themselves into hierarchies and the hierarchy? A hierarchy? points in a single direction and organizes. You have an internal hierarchy that guides you. You know so, for example, right now, at least in principle. You focused on one thing. Hopefully your focused on the content of the lecture, beyond whatever thoughts it might be generating, but you're focused on I think it means that all of the other

things that you could be focused on or inhibited there there there and you ve you One thing out to be: ruler, above all else in this situation, you cannot save the world without using and internal hierarchy, its inevitable, then that hierarchy think about this All you are here at the same time, at the moment, you're all doing the same thing, and so that hierarchy of perception, that's guiding the way that you look at the world. Is also organizing you're, the behaviour everyone in this room and so there's concordance between the soul, no hierarchy and internal hierarchy and that Concordance- is in fact order. Look when you came in here, the chairs randomly position right. There often at the stage the rule has a story embedded in it? The story,

that we all come in here and sit down and. The stage, because that's where the action is If there's going to be any action and we're, all agreed that we want to make this the focal point and that agreement. It is a hierarchical arrangement of value. We ve decided that this is the most valuable thing at the moment. Nothing else competes to that agreement. Quiet, enlisting than your participating in that as per social order structure, cells into hierarchies, to produce order and a hierarchy. The hierarchy, has a fundamentally masculine symbolic nature, and I think it's because the complex that complex human hierarchies. Their manifestations of masculinity. It doesnt mean women, don't contribute. I dont mean that partly because it is

The case that men are only masculine and women are only feminine. Men have a feminine side, and women have a masculine side So that, additionally complicates the issue and I am not going to rest that at the moment, so I want to stick. I want to stick closer to the main point, all right. The hierarchy of value is fundamentally masculine, because complex hierarchies are fundamentally the consequence of masculine activity for better or for worse. You might debate that, and you probably could, but it's a reasonable proposition back to feminine wise feminine chaos. Okay, so we said the first symbolic analogue. Is that Kay

then the feminine or the same, because new forms emerge from both. That's that's a fundamental symbolic equivalents. It's what makes the metaphor work when you encounter something chaotic something new can emerge and it's the feminine out of which new things emerge. Are. Why else? Why us as the feminine Growth is chaotic. Now I can't tell if this is a human universal or if this is something that mostly characteristic of the experience of man, but I think it's a universal. You have twice as many female ancestors has male ancestors right. So what That means is that, on average, men are half as successful Reproductive Lee as women. Can, you might think we're? How can you have twice as many female ancestors is male, it doesn't make. Any sense is like yes, it does

now it would make sense. Imagine that on average, every woman had one child throughout the entire history of humanity. Then imagine that half of the men had zero and the other have had to well, that's basically, what happened like if you strip Out and you look at it mathematically, that's what happened and so men to be mail, is to be much more susceptible to radical failure at reproduction. Why women are select, are sexually selective and it out to be a big deal. So look, there's two forces that DR evolutionary selection speaking biologically Natural selection don't giddy, by a grizzly bear your dad and if you're dead you dont reproduce, but

not be selected as it may, it is also reproductive death. Darwin identified this very early when he was laying out the theory of evolution, natural selection and, true selection and Darwin actually if that sexual selection was at least ass, powerful forces, natural selection, You find a mate and reproduce well, let's contrast for a minute, chimpanzees and human beings. Once again, The evidence suggests that human beings have diverged more from our comments. Are common ancestor with Chile, These then chimpanzees have ok, so Chimps are more like them whatever we were both like seven million years ago than we are, we ve transformed cells radically, you can tell that by looking at a chimp, they look very different than ass. Their lot shorter. They don't stand upright they. Basically there. Basically vegetarian cause they're, not great hunters. They have tremendous.

Got area. Where was we have traded that in four brain, which you know might have not been a great idea, but its nonetheless, what we decided. We we undergone tremendously rapid, cortical development, and here we are. In the jungle chewing on leaves eight hours a day, we're sitting in this lecture on Zurich instead, seven million years to get here and it was hot? going so. Why are we so different or here's one explanation: because human females are sexually selective, now our chimpanzee female goes into heat. He goes into he'd. All the males can tell- and she will in this permanently made with any of them

the dominant males tend to made more often, but that's because they chased the subordinate males away. It's not because the females prefer the dominant males, but that's not the case for human beings. It's not the case for female human beings there are sexually selective, they have hidden ovulation and they are due. Financially more likely to mate across and hierarchy at appears to be a human universal human females are sexually choosy. What's the consequence of that? What one consequence of that perhaps is that we ve all done believable rapidly over the last seven million years, driven by sexual selection, see but women seem to have done as far as I can tell is outsource. The problem of made selection in a brilliant clause. I free market. What would you call? It appears, So how do you calculate the value of a man

how the hell do you know you're, you do you're just like born eighteen years ago. What do you know you don't have to calculate the value of a man who does well? How about other man? There's a there's, a proposition habit of you line up all the men and let them compete at whatever their competing at and then like some guy winds, and so is the better man one or go after him. Oh that's a hell of a fine! So listen to the problem of made selection so like its debts, repeated solution right. You can let the intelligence of the entire society ray corridor me school entity in terms of value- and you can peel from the top and that's exact, What women appear to do if you look at their biological strategy, think well. Why would they do that? It's like well how about because they bear the power. Mary responsibility and burden for reproduction. How would that be it's like, and then they know it. Unlike Japan, The females like I'm gonna, have a baby. It's like. I should probably find someone half ways you

switch to help me with it, and so I did so. That's that's pure, pragmatic reasoning and I think, that's part of what drives at, but I think its deeper than that as well as that, there's there's an inn think tool component to it, that makes men who are successful more sexually attractive to females? And I think the data for that over overwhelming, and I think it's imperfect concordance with with whatever essentially knows, even though we might not want to know what that's almost always a sign that it's something you should know so I I don't want to know that for sure it's true, then it's like it's definitely true. So. All right. So what does that have to do with femininity as chaos or how about this. How do you know you're not in order if your man that's easy, all the women reject you and, if you don't

doesn't throw you into chaos than you're, not thinking it is primary thing. The will and should, throw you into chaos, because if the women reject you. Without either means all the women are wrong or the is something wrong with you and the probability That it's all the women who are wrong and there's not something wrong with you- is basically zero. So part of the reason. Rip. Women are represented as chaos now and this is you could take. Well, that's a male point of view. It's like possibly possibly Maybe it's a uniquely male point of view, but I am not convinced that it is anyhow. There's, no rejection greater than rejection at the level of sexual selection, because it's a fundamental rejection. It's like I've. Some do you up your genetic material shouldn't pro

Get into the next generation Ok, so chaos, and so the feminine is also nature, its nature and chaos. Well, why well look if that's the fundamental process, selection, evolutionary selection among human beings, and I think the evidence for that is pretty strong. Then women are nature. Even symbolic, if Nature is what selects, which is, how you have to define it if you're thinking biologically nature is that which selects in the Darwinism struggle it's it's an axiom definite Ok, what's Lex women then. Are they nature? Yes, and so what's the encounter with a region acting woman like for a man, it's an encounter with chaotic nature, Nature says nor you, ok the second reason- that's the second reason that chaos Femininity seem to be associated, ok, here's mother,

women are higher negative emotion than men quite a bit higher. Now that mean that there are some men who experienced more negative emotion on average than women. Because the curves overlap, but across cultures. Men are more disagreeable and women are higher negative emotion right so and that's it the kicking puberty, by the way, because it doesn't seem to be characteristic of boys and girls, and it doesn't seem be a consequence of socialization, it's a call. It looks like a cultural universal. Also, The differences in negative motion between men and women get bigger and more egalitarian countries, not smaller. So that's also something that's very much worthwhile ok. So why are women more prone to negative emotion than men? Well, their smaller. So that's one possibility and that really kicks in puberty, and so you might say that enough. Physical altercation there more

likely to lose. And so maybe you might say, while the creature, whose more like to lose a physical altercation should be on average somewhat more anxious. So that's one possibility. Another possibility is about sex. Vulnerability, that's a good one, that would go along with the fact that the emotional differences kicking puberty strikes. Is a dangerous business for men and for women, but its very varied just for women because they might get pregnant, and you know now that's not a catastrophe and on one pregnancy for a variety of reasons, but a hundred years ago not even that it was our complete bloody catastrophe. It it could easily have meant social alienation minimum and it could easily mean death. It wasn't good, and so women have are manifest increased vulnerability, regards to sex. So that's another thing that should make the more sensitive to negative emotion,

Here's another one like well! Maybe the female nervous system isn't wired for the woman. Maybe the female nervous system is wired for the woman infant dyad. Now you know women are going to pay. Price for being the fundamental caregivers. What's the price we have to be sensitive to the infant, especially the infant, less so with older children, but the infant. Infant is just it just can't do anything all I can do is emit distress and vaguely, and so you, have to respond to the distress it has to distress you and so on sensitive to negative emotion, that's not going to happen. You want be pretty sensitive to your infants. Distress like maybe not so much that it just put you into a tailspin from which you never recover. Although motherhood has been known to do that to people, but at least

sensitive enough, so that you were there when, when there's manifestation of distress and so and maybe also need to be able to communicate their distress in it, piling manner to your partner, whose less susceptible to the same degree of distress and so then and so that's another way that women are agents of chaos in some sense is that their Transmitters of distress related negative emotion. They transmit that man, you say well, are those bad things are good things like it's. It's not not the right way of looking at it, because their necessary things. You know we have to. We pay a price for propagating ourselves across time. We pay a price for rip reproducing successfully and the price we pay and we pay a price for our in hand.

Cognitive abilities, part about is the susceptibility of men to sexual rejection and our entanglement in the brutal process of sexual selection across hundreds of thousands of years there's a in Tom Sawyer, interesting story. This is a bit of a more positive representation of the idea of chaos eminent idea of chaos. Tom Sawyer comes out of his house one day, these, like thirteen or fourteen Is this girl across the street name is Becky and he's transfixed by her like it. It's like. Sexual maturity is dawned on him and he's like attracted by her and so the

This thing it does he hopped up on offence and balances like this, so it's a display and it's like she's. She represents a challenge to him and the way that he responds to that challenge and that there are two views by manner. Doing something that approximates competence and was so. What you could say is that the desire to captivate a female that Your attracted to calls out of you, at least in principle, what might be the best from you.

Or maybe that's another reason that women are chaos, that's the feminine, this chaos. I read this line once I don't know what you think about this, but never really disappeared for my imagination and maybe it's a terribly sexist idea who know Men test ideas, women test man, it isn't obvious which of those is the more difficult process by the way, by any stretch of the imagination. It's not also obvious which of them is more worthwhile, but I do think another possible reason that femininity is associated with care. Symbolically is because women constantly challenge and they challenge them to be better than they are. Maybe that's it, but better

and why well bitch, because women are often put in a position they have to depend on man. That's definitely the case when they have small children right, so they have to put themselves now especially voluntarily in Situation of dependence is like what what are you gonna do. If your view, eyes. If you are a woman and knew not how I was going to happen to you, you're gonna make yourself honourable because you had to take care of this tiny thing that was completely incapable of taking care of itself, and you had to pick our partner. It's like well, you might hope that they were better because you need them and so There is a challenge that women put forward and men are often in some it's not up to it? I'm not saying that women always do that in the most. What would you call it? It's not like they dont is looked like they do that error, but there's something driving it right. It did something you have to contend with its like, while a human.

And is a very vulnerable creature. You see that the stories of the birth of the hero, the bird, the heroes, always threatened at birth. You see them the story of Moses, because the Faro wants to put everybody every first, due to death, and then you see the same thing in in the birth of Christ. You see that in in Harry Potter, whose threatened at birth and swore. Why, Is that part of its central hero narratives, because everyone's threatened at birth right each new person is a potential. Why would say, has an aspect of potential Savior about them. That's their potential. There threatened at birth. Well, that's a mother's risk. Its what she's do what you can to buttress, that vulnerability against the world and she's gonna. Look at the adult male whose beside her and think look. I've got some That really needs to be taken care of here, and it's not you and that's correct, but its parts but it's demanding in Auschwitz

it really is demanding for that call to go out to each Male, who enters a relationship to be responsible like four, twenty years to grow up? carry that way properly and that's not the other thing. Is you not just going to grow up, because someone asks you nicely, you know you're with your partner and they say: well, you know how about you grow up in Xenia, no problem, and then you go to And then you wake up and you're all grown up, it's like that, isn't how it as you are going to have to be tortured three quarters to death. For you grow up and three that three quarters, needs to be tortured to death. Is all the part of you? That's not Sure and responsible, and it has to be tortured to death, ass to die, because if it does, then the new you that might be fully fledged, let's say and responsible to be all that could be to use a terrible crochet. It's like it. Tension that brings that forward and so there's this

There is this tension between men and women and its and I think we wouldn't we wouldn't ever be happy. If I wasn't the case, here's a very funny psychological studies. A law is probably not true, because so many of the marked, but it When I tell it to you anyway, because I love this study, so so imagine that, get couples to relate, how satisfied they are with them friendship to rate it on a scale from one to ten, a new satisfied people and you take it, you satisfied people and then you get them to track the emotional valence of their interactions. So you interact with your partner. Positive or negative, and so then you- you can average how many positive interactions there are compared to how many negative interactions you think. Well, the couples that really love each other, like it's all positive, and then the couples that aren't doing bad, it's all or do daddy. It's all negative, if it's like no that is now works, if

relationship falls beneath for positive, too. Negative interactions. Then it's done that's too much negativity, but. It goes above eleven to one positive to negative. It's also done why, because that isn't if you dont want untrammelled bliss from your partner, because that would kind of imply that you Both ok, exactly the way you are well you're, not you not! anywhere near what you could be, and you know But so does your partner Each other, and so you gotta, proposing prodded each other bits like fix yourself up for Christ's sake, it's like, while you to strike you fix So far, no, you fix yourself up. It's like gamble. Both fix herself up and there's gonna, be some damn tension around that. So that's another part of the that dynamic. That struggle between chaos in order that that

that's necessary to call something approximating the best forward aren't. So those are the reasons as far as I can tell. Let's recap little bit Its necessary for us to understand that some deep level, the nature of the world that we live in and we do that with stories the stories trying to lay out they trail. They try to lay out the structure, the world that we have to contend with in walk through it's not the same as the objective world. It's the world emotion and motivation and dream and deterrent struggle, it's the it's the living biological world and that's all rating stories in the stories tell us well, there's two fundamental domains of existence is in order domain demanded a chaotic domain and then there's a pro. Since that mediate between those two, an that's reality: that's the yen and the Yang. By the way you know the Dallas knew this

world was made out of chaos in order and its masculine its feminine asking for them as well as the same some, it's the same metaphorical structure and waste, you're supposed to be, as in the middle of those two things right, that's where meaning is to be found. But how did we come to realise this to the degree that we have well These domains manifested themselves in our imagination in personified form, masculine and famine and why That's how we understood the world. Stood. The world is a place of personalities that we're masculine and feminine. We had to use some pre existing cognitive structure to come to rips, with the way that we represent the world will not happen. Naturally, stories in the matter, still intended to represent order in the feminine tended to represent chaos, and I accept And I told you some stories about the same thing,

benzene Genesis, for example, God whose masculine right God, the Father counters chaos at the beginning of time, its toll who Babo, who and Some word is related to the mesopotamian word t amount and its associate with the same set of ideas that some orderly structure encounter something chaotic and generate something new and so that's but the foundational at that that ideas the foundation of our culture. That's the evidence for me that egyptian story, the Mesopotamia story, The story and genesis. The analysis of their symbolic structure is evidence that, though, well as well as the taoist interpretation, which maps which, which uses exactly the same mapping struck that's the evidence and that's not all the evidence that these symbolic categories exist. I dont know,

that I'm just pulling them out of thin air. Maybe I am you know it's very difficult to tell if your projecting or discovering, but well, I've laid out my case for discovery and not projection how to wrap that up. Well, I've answered the question as well as I can, when what I haven't answered and when I need dancers still is why it is that you should care about that. It augurs well. That's that's the tape. That's the take home message right now. I told you some reasons. I think you need to know the underlying architecture. The structure of the underlying narrative architecture of the world, because you need to know Where are you? Are you in order you in chaos, if you're in chaos? What do you do you open your eyes? You wake up, you face what you don't want to confront and that helps you overcome. What put you in chaos and build new order. You need to know that it's absolutely crucial. You asked

self, like, if you're in chaos, you ask yourself, it's a good prayer What could I see that I am unwilling to see that will guide me out of this hell? That's a good thing to ask. You know and then you you will see. If you want to that's the thing you can and see if you want to you won't want to. But if you don't, you stay there and that's not good and so the These are crucial things to know because you will be in chaos and you need to get out and that Are you get out? Ok, so it's so and the stories that we ve created these stories over so many thousands of years in an attempt to but formulate what guides us and to train. Smith the knowledge forward it? Something like that orient ourselves while we're in? but also to provide that impatient for future generations? Is the collective work of the human imagination across millennia and that's what I

he's trying to explain at least in part in twelve rules it wasn't. There was no attempt to like pajamas thirdly describe women chaos and men. As order and to make the case that one was preferable to another, I dont, leave that any ways it was it's an attempt to it operate out the fundamental star of the narratives. That guide us so that people, including me, can understand them anymore, articulate and complete manner, because you know you need to know. It seems to me that word a point in our development. Let's say psychologically and technologically and culturally about that we have to be more awake than we were and we were guided. In some sense, unconsciously and implicitly, by these stories. For a tremendous, a fortress this long period of time we woke up enough to criticise the stories and then we lose them. It's like we lose the story and its at the bottom of everything. As we can lose the story. You can't lose the thread you can't you is the orientation and you have done

you stand there now, instead of just following our instead of just believing you have to develop, some are taken representation. It's very difficult. You know this. Idea of order and chaos in the symbolic representation of femininity masculinity, the overlay of those two, its tremendous the complicated assuming there's any degree of accuracy in it, commit tremendously complicated conceptually. We no longer seem to be able to blindly follow the deep stories that have guided as for so long, we no longer believe in them. It's like what we can't believe in them anymore. We have done. Stand them, and so my claim, I suppose, is that what I was trying to do in twelve rules for life, sent to classify men and women into chaos in order, but to say, look there pattern here that we need to understand. If we're going to, recent ourselves properly in the world,

And so then you might say well, why bother oriented yourself properly in the world is like well because they dough heard of it is grim in all its like, but chaos is terrible if you're overwhelmed by it. It's not only will do you in like physiologically, because you cannot tolerate distress when everything's fallen apart and there's no doubt action, and maybe it's your own, damn Falk cause you're blind and malevolent in, or maybe been done in by someone who's whose betrayed you it's terrible. You want to suffer like that endlessly. That's, not a good solution and its did not just not good for you. It's like If you're in the underworld for too long, you get vicious No, you start generating, you start generating fantasies destruction and revenge and you'll do everything you can to pursue them, and so it good. Socially, you have to pay. Out of the underworld in order for things to survive properly and and

you know we're we're in this situation. I think we're the collapse of our. Belief systems have made us more Eric and more nihilistic and more hopeless in many ways, and it's not good it's better. To understand the stories and so on. If, if Just down the stories you have to contend with a way of thinking that great and you re the illogical sensibilities. Well, so be it that's life! It's it's! It's not like it's a straightforward! It's not something! It's not like! It's like, say something straightforward to sort out. You know the reason we took, stories, instead of laying this out in articulated manner for tens of thousands of years is because it so damn complicated that the best, could do was tell stories about it? That was it that's where our knowledge ended. You know, and we ve enough psychological knowledge, maybe in the last five hundred years to start our tick. The underlying narrative structure- and I think we need

be able to do that. I think the reason that my Work has been popular in the lurch so I've been doing like this one have been insanely popular enough to bring all you people out on a Saturday night like what the hell, what's going on, you know to listen to. This is like it's. I not a walk through the park precisely, but I do think It's the manifestation of a realisation that collective realisation, at least in part, that it. Time? Do it's time to be more awake than we have been and are, stand what's at the bottom of things, and so that's why well, that's why I laid out the symbolic structure that I laid out in my first book and maps of meaning and then in twelve rules for life, and you know what represents my ass attempt to make sense of things. It's not an attack, to convince people like, no. For Christ's sake, it's like

it's a mystery. It's difficult to contend with you. He dealt with the bottom of things. If you want understand them, I've always wanted to understand what drove bill towards malevolence. You know when, in their eyes the study has Laid out the symbolic landscape. For me, it's been so helpful to understand it, and so I ve been communicated and part of it communication is the representation. These symbolic patterns- and they happened to manifest themselves in engendered form and asked how it is we can deny it. Maybe it's wrong, but I can't see how it's wrong we can do, but it's not gonna help. It's not deniable and I do believe it's the way. We think and so I hope that you find that helpful I think it's useful to know that you can be in chaos. Useful to know that what you do, there's you open your eyes and it is also a place of renewal, not necessarily because it can be a place of death, but it can place of renewal and

are the sort of creature that can be renewed, understand the symbolic and restructure is to understand that consciously, and I think we need to understand consciously. So that's my best crack at the mall explaining why chaos this feminine and masculine, and There is masculine.

Thank you very much. So I have this electronic questioning system set up and you may have been informed about this. We did our best to inform it. Buddy. But if you have a cell phone and you go to the website SL I dont deal and you enter.

The code Swiss, then you can ask questions and you can see the other question. So, there's a bunch of questions here already, I'm gonna answer some of them and then, if you want to add your question to the lot, then there's some low probability that it'll get answered so Well, let's try hard won. What are your thoughts on the latest Gillette ad? Well, I hate it so that that would be the first. That would be the first. I don't know if that's a thought, it's more like a feeling.

I'd rather have my corporations greedy than virtuous. I think it's more trustworthy and they did. This is a strange thing. You know it's a strange thing that I see happening on the left. It's like the left is always being sceptical. Large corporations and like theirs they have their it's kind of interesting ache as the left is sceptical of large corporations and the right skeptical of large governments, and they never to notice that they're both sceptical about large right and you should sceptical about large, you know that trope from two thousand and eight too big to fail signal so big will inevitably fail. That's the right trope in any case, so left now is happy about virtue. Signalling corporations is like All of a sudden, you trust them. That's that's! That's all it took is to produce an ad.

That criticizes masculinity and all of a sudden corporations are trustworthy. It's I don't think so now that doesn't mean. I think that corporations are particularly untrussing, the compared to other forms of human organization. What else it's you see What's happening on the radical and of the left spectrum is, I think it's something like this. It's very difficult to pull apart completely, but. Eddie all our parasites. In my estimation on this, Underlying symbolic structure that I was talking to you about there's chaos and there's order and order fragments into two categories. You could say negative order and peace, the border and negative order is tyranny and p. The border, is the wise king, for all intents and purposes, and the asked. The radicals on the radical left say the pages.

Turkey is a tyranny and what they say what they are claiming is that society is nothing but the evil. King and that's just simply not true,. Me society is the evil king, because human History is a bloody nightmare true of every culture. So if you point To a culture- and you say you have an endless- plethora of sins on your conscience. Then you correct but its half. Story, it's like, while you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak, it's like Look if you're a reader unintelligent reader of a book, you keep what's use when discard, what isn't? And if you intelligent critic of your own culture- you don't just say well, it's all gone to Hell and the hand basket, and it's no press of tyranny. You say well there are some things that we did pretty badly and here's some things worth preserving and let's like get things, worth preserving to grow and see

we can do about constraining the things that aren't so good. That takes discrimination right that takes wisdom to pull that apart. You want to pass on what's best and leave what isn't behind you. Do this thing in your own personal development, but that is and how it works for the city logs because they ve already decided there axiomatic assumption the way does it know oppressive patriarchy period, no questioning that if you question that then well, then than than look out for you, that's for sure and so then Gillette comes along and says well, here's man and things men. Do they are associated with the oppressive patriarchy. Then they should stop doing them. It's like it's not helpful. The EPA, the American Psychological Association just did the same thing with their guidelines for the psychological treatment of boys and men, and I was reviewing that today. I'm writing an article about it. You know they claim that,

The reason that- boys and men have poor mental health and the reason that boys and- and who are anti social pose. A threat to society is because boys are badly socialized by men. That's essentially the claim so like well how bout no How about that's, not even vaguely true, and so there. I was thinking about that today. It's it's not only nor true, it's it's it's it's! It's antithetical to the truth. It's the opposite! of the truth, and how do we know that it's like well, if you stay the anti social behaviour which is more prevalent among men, and then you look at the risk factors for anti social behaviour among men like here's one risk factor: alcohol, ok, if you got rid of intoxication. Impulsive, violent crimes with virtually disappear so that something that sort of worth knowing fifty.

Santa people who were murdered are drunk and fifty percent? the people who do the murdering our drunk when they do it and in many altercations it's a toss up. Who's gonna, be the victim and who's gonna, be the perpetrator that certainly the casing fight is also the case for rape if we are serious about things like aggression, its control. We look at the direct causes, but we're rarely serious about such things. Alcohol, major contributor, here's another one- how bout farther listeners so like if you're a young man a boy raised in a father's family, you re more likely to be anti social way more likely. Ok, Let us think about that for a minute. So what does that mean if the amount? and psychological association was accurate, what would see? Is the boys who have fathers were more violent but that is why you see what you see is that boys without fathers are more violent. So how does that equates to the proposition that it's the

if a socialization of boys by men that produces violence is like know that exactly wrong while the jeweler added sits. Playing on the same troops is what there's something wrong with men, while yeah no kidding it's like not like that's news, but Jesus, it's not news, you know, and we can all be better than we are, but to attack masculinity as such, it's well. Maybe it's the maybe it's a form of chaotic, challenge mean? I don't really understand it. Why I do so. I would do wonder that you know if that's, if that's part of a here's something on us in trouble for this I've been thinking about this now definitely get you in trouble. You already said that one of the functions of women is to challenge men, and I mean in the most profound way and that nets part of

evolutionary process that made us what we are saying Women have never organised themselves politically on mass right, that's never happened before now that's happening, and I looked at this. I looked at this chart the other day and it was a charge of the degree to which university definite getting in trouble for this the degree to which our universe discipline was politically correct, rank, ordered and then, beside it, a list of the probability that that university departments was female dominated and they match up very nicely the more needed, they are by women, the more likely they are to be politically correct. That's interesting thought. Well, I dont know why that is, and I dont understand it exists, so I've been generating hypotheses, which is what you do. If you're a science by the way. If you try to think well, what might account for that? You don't

think it's true when you think that you just think what might account for thought. Well,. Maybe that's how women would express themselves politically. We don't know women never express themselves politically. So now they organise and express themselves politically like what kind of voices that going to produce, or maybe it's a voice that criticizes the patriarchy. Maybe it extended part of the female challenge to the male? It's like you're, not, everything you could be Here's. My accusations, can you withstand them is to you to manage it. While I have no idea, like is that's what's happening, I can't tell. You know I mean where we're seeing this degeneration in the universities into this ideological, morass as far as I can, as far as I can figure it and that the see presupposition is that our cultures, a tyrannical truck it's accusation or what you do.

Accusation like that you just roll over and die already or you respond say, look not so fast. You know, there's some things worth preserving here and a little gratitude is also an order. This plan, bloodshed in catastrophe in past sins, but look at all the things that you have and have some attitude we were not able to make their case let's say as man or maybe even a standard bearers of our civilization. If we're not able to make their case than me, we're not over everything we should be looking. I talk neuroscientist scientist awhile back, and he told me something very interesting. He wrote this book called Astern is emissary in MID Gilchrist, very smart man, He was talking about the necessity of opponent processing in complex in the operation of complex and finely tuned system he said want to move your right hand very slowly and accurately, so you can do this.

But if you really want to do it accurately, you do this, you put your left hand up and you push against right hand and the new push a little harder with your right hand than your left and you can move unbelievably. Finally, it accurately because there's four z in conflict, that are there, regulating the action like I don't know how much worse there has to be in conflict to regulate our actions. Maybe when women rise up politically, which is what they ve done, What will emerge from that is like a challenge to the idea of the patriarchate. While the let it goes along with that, and why is it a problem? Well because we risk throwing the baby out with the bathwater. So that some of my thoughts on the latest Gillette ad. Elon musk bill gates, Stephen Hawkins and SAM Harris, are all warning about ay. What do you think

about. I were book going a very powerful systems that reflect who we are and magnify defy. It so and that's gonna have very quickly, and so we better set a good example ass. My thoughts, hey, I you know it's like one of the things I learned from Karl Young. I like this. A lot was that he believed that we know back around the fifteenth, the sixteenth century, maybe even earlier than that sort of at the dawn of the technological revolution, we had we're too. He laid this out in these studies of alchemy, which was there. Sort of dream like precursor to science, and how can we was sort of half mythology and have dawning empiricism and out of alchemy alchemy emerged, chemistry and then and physics, and then science exploded, and here we are

three hundred years later and we're way more technologically powerful than we were, but part alchemy was mythology and ethics? and its remained unchanged. We haven't expanded ourselves in the same manner and one of you is warnings was that we better because the more technologically powerful we become the more. Ethical behaviour becomes a necessity and so on Going to build these incredibly powerful machines v very soon, and it's already happening and they are going to reflect who we are, and they are going to, if they're going to reflect what we want. They're going to reflect the way we want things to be, as indicated by our actions, and so I've thought about such things. For. Very long period of time and came to the conclusion that the most effective way of dealing with that is to try to encourage people to be better as individuals and so

it's. What I would say like that's more or less the answer I have to the set of problems that are going to confront us. It's like be more honest. Have your eyes open, more, be more responsible pay attention to the meaning in your life right, act, ethically or else, and I think that that's always been true, but in some sense it's the urgency, for that has become amplified and that's another reason that we have to wake up. So you know when I look at the future. It's so contradictory at the moment, and I would say that's because we're in a period were strangely enough in this area if chaos, you know we ve lost our pathway in the west to some degree, we're we're polarizing and then we're confused about who we are and where we're going.

At the same time, there are processes what in the world that are so positive that there almost unbelievable right, I mean we ve lived at a tremendous purple one of the world's population out of poverty over the last twenty years. It's it's the biggest economic miracle in human history, by huge like it. By huge margin and everyone's being connected to the electrical power grid. An incredible rate and everyone has access to unbelievably powerful, virtually everyone access or soon will have access to unbelievably powerful computational technology, you know, and most people in the world are now middle class and started action is essentially a thing of the past, except when its imposed on one population by another, for political reasons You know when and where were we worn a number of serious illnesses and are well on our way to eradicating them, polio being the first one, but it won't be the last one to go. You know that

the third world is developed immensely in terms of lifespan over the last and standard of living over the last twenty. As you know, the child mortality rate in Africa is now the same as it was in Europe. Had nineteen fifty two hats are miracle you know, and so there's all these things that are happening that are so incredibly positive and yet you know we're rife with confusion. Tremendous tension and and and there's the sense that I think everybody shares this I that things can go to hell and a hand basket very very rapidly, and I think that we're in a situation. Where would we say we have to decide what we want a new decide that as individuals like do you want the world get better and better. You want to act in a manner that will increase the probability of that occurring. That seems like the right way forward. So we wake up

and we and we get our act together and we move forward into a future, that's better and better. That would be a good thing, but it's not going to be a straightforward think, so Think too- and I you know- I tried to say this in my lectures- and you know we all bear the responsibility, for this is one of the things that I think is so perverse and strange about the structure reality. It's like, I do believe, there's something tat, about the idea that the direction of the world rest- on your shoulders, like you need which is weird because of course they look at all of you. There's seven billion of us is how can the weight of the world the future of the world rest on each of our shoulders? Well, reality is a very strange, real

these very and comprehensible. That's one thing you can say for certain and it seems to me that it could be structured that it's your responsibility and I think it's worth taken that seriously So if you could debate Karl Marx, what would you tell him how bout you won't live long enough. If you count at a corpse a second, you wouldn't live long enough to count all the corpses you produced, how's that out. I would tell him that he underestimated the scope of the problem. And this is also something that I believe is true of the leftists who follow marks one a marxist propositions- was that

capital would accrue in the hands of a smaller and smaller minority of people under a capitalist state? Like that's actually true in some ways you know- and we all know this, because we all know that I think the world's richest eighty people have more money than the bottom two billion. Something like that. There is a real proclivity for complex systems to tell Into a winner takes all situation, but the and that's true, And so you can say well, marks was right, it's like no, it wasn't crazy blame that on capitalism is like way worst problem than marks thought because its characteristic of every system that we know of we don't know what to do about it. You know I did in this is grafting. This function that I've talked about quite frequently called the praetor distribution, Prater distribution.

Systems till towards winner takes all situations- and you see this in all sorts of domains, so hardly any musician, sell. All the recordings. Right. How many musicians are there in the world? I dont remember: there's some untold millions of numbers of songs on the net right original songs. What fraction of them get listen to like none. A thousandth of a per cent those songs take all the listeners like the same thing, if you sell a book so like almost no book so well You shouldn't even write a book because the probability that it won't sell is virtually certain now now and then a book sells a tremendous number, but it's this thing, and I have a friend use an author news the north, a long time he explained at least partly why happens from actually write. A book of fiction can think what, where to people is just and

where do people by fiction books? What about the airport think what thousands of airports like yeah, and each of them has a bookstore and the books has a key ask out front and the same five books occupy the top rung of every single chaos as AIDS. It's a real estate grab in some sense, and if you, the top left hand corner your number one. You sell all the books and the people down in the corner. There They sell any books, but at least there on the damn kiosk and there is proclivity for the winter to take all. Every situation and we don't actually know what to do about it, and so that's another thing that I would tell marks is like you and estimated the problem so blame that on capitalism and actually capitalist Is pretty good at churning because there is a one

that has most of the money, but that one percent actually changes that the fact of the one percent stays quite constant, but the people who constitute that one percent churn quite regularly and also, for example, five hundred company tens only has a lifespan of thirty years and a family fortune and has a lifespan of three generations and even in the the course of your own life. Each of you, I think, has it is something like a ten percent chance. This isn't exactly right, but its approximately. Let each of you has at least at ten percent chance of being in the top one percent at some point in your life, and so does the structure the unequal distribution is really stable, but the composition change and that's another thing marks really didn't take into account. If you examine Paley, if it grave sites way before the dawn of capitalism, you find that a small number people were buried with all the gold right most graves. Nothing. Small number of people tremendous

just and then you see this. You see this in the size of city, so small number cities, have almost all the people, a small number of planetary bodies have almost all the mass. The same applies to stars, and so there's this deal tendency for the winter to take all its expressed in the new testament. There's a statement that statement of crises to those who have everything more will be given and from those who have nothing. Everything will be taken which is well a rather harsh observation about the structure of the world and also one that doesn't particularly fair, but I would say to marks and to the left us and follow them is if you really cared about the poor, you take the problem of it. Equal distribution, a lot more seriously than you do when you blame it on capitalism and the west where he deeper problem than that, and so so I would tell car

mark that he was nowhere near pessimistic enough. So our right Louis asked what is music to our psyche every like that, music has really been an interesting of psychological interest of mind because it's been upset. By the idea of meaning trying to understand what it is and whether it something real- and I do believe it's something I think it's the most real thing action I think your instinct, for meaning is that the best died that you have and I think that meaning is is, is the ultimate reality. I do believe that I we have intimations of meaning in music, and that's why we love music?

no know no matter how nihilistic and hopeless you are always thought about punk rockers in that way, because you know, especially when I was writing my first book as punk rock was pretty popular, then it's like nihilistic, violent, sort of music about the pointless of things, and yet the punk rockers listen to it and they were like having a fine time listening to it. It was so paradoxical it's like at the same time, the music was blasting forth. The message, a message of a NEO destruction, and I know some of was she'll criticism, some of whose irony not criticizing punk rock is just so it was so perverse to me that the punk rockers who were decrying? structure, reality on nihilistic grounds will fully engaged in immersed in a meaningful experience, while listening to the music

and they didn't notice the contradiction and and and they were they were feeding on them, the meaning. You know I mean I don't know if it's possible for people to live without music. I think it's because music provides a direct intimation of meaning it. It's actually the most representative form of art and the reason I think that's the case is because I dont think the world is made out of objects, I think the world it's better to conception. The world is made it as made out of patterns, objects, our patterns, but they're, a subset of patterns, and you want it's some like this is that when the patterns of your life are interacting harmoniously, then, the sense of meaning prevails. It's it's Part of being in order, but it's more than that because order, enough. You have to be on the edge of order in order for things to be properly balanced harmoniously because you have to be

proving the order that you would have it at the same time that you would have it. That's where that that's where meaning exists, it's on that boundary and it's where music puts you to know using shows you the structure of the world in these nested patterns, and then the patterns transform you you, you break yourself into harmony with the transformation of those patterns and that that gives you a deep intimation of meaning- and they did it illustrates, you how to dance with the world like, The world has a musical structure and you're you're. If you were If you were dancing properly you would be an alignment with those patterns and music intimates that you know that's why well that's why so much it is sacred, though it's used in religious ceremonies because it provides a direct and

incontrovertible demonstration of the meaning of the harmony of patterns. It's something like that. And so May was. Music is always been fascinating to me because it it escapes from rational criticism. You know it's dead It's easy for us worry we're until I intellectual and we're cynical and were critical, and we can take things. We believe we can break them apart and have nothing left you don't need, sits there, aid of many, a erotic intellectual to do precisely that to take their own belief systems and to subject them to radical This is a man to leave themselves with nothing but the bro pieces of OSIRIS right. It's while none of that work to now, where am I guess, not but nihilism and hopelessness, and in me, it comes along and it speaks of this harmonious relationship between the patterns of being. And what do you? What are you? What are you doing here critical. Intellect you say: well you can't you,

launch an intellectual attack on the aesthetic experience that music produces its immune. To that a primary experience, and thank God for that, because it gives us this link does something that's of transcendent reality that are our critical in I cannot break apart and so well. So that's what music is too psyche as far as I am concerned, and there's more to it than that, I mean that's that doesnt exhaust what music is, but it's it's a good start right. Now, that's a good place to end. I guess that's a positive placed end, so

all end. Thank you very much for the pleasure of working with all of you. If you found this conversation meeting on, you might think about picking up dad's bugs massive meaning the architecture. Leave or his newer best seller twelve rules for life, an antidote to chaos. Both of these works delve much deeper into the topics covered in the Jordan me Petersen pot Cast See Jordan, me Petersen DA com for audio e book and text links or pick up the books at your favorite books. Our. I really hope you enjoy this podcast. If you did, please leave a rating, an apple, podcast, accommodate review or share this up,

and with a friend thanks for tuning in and talk to you next week. Follow me on my Youtube journal. Jordan, be Petersen on Twitter at Jordan, be Petersen on Facebook, Doktor, Jordan Petersen and of Instagram join me dog, be DOT Peterson tales on this show access blog information about my tour dates and other events, and my The recommended books can be found my website, Jordan, be Peter dot com. My online writing programmes designed to help people trade! Note there pasts understood themselves in the present and develop a sufficient. A vision and strategy for the future can be found itself authoring, dot, com that self authoring dot, com. From the West would one podcast network,