« Lore

Episode 177: Strings

2021-08-16 | 🔗

One of the things that has united humans across cultures and languages is music. For as long as we can remember, we have filled our lives with new musical backdrops. And at the center of that world are the people who write and perform it all—as well as the stories about where their powerful gifts come from.


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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
It had been hiding in plain sight for centuries Looking over the oldest documents we have today, it's easy to get lost in their beautiful simplicity and straightforward purpose. The works of Plato, the greek philosopher from the fourth century BC had been pivotal, were over twenty four hundred years and its I wonder, really Platos teacher was a guy named Socrates and he himself became a teacher later on to a man named Aristotle, legends all of them. But while we. Scraps of writing from the other two men Platos complete works seem to have done the unthinkable by surviving all the way to the present, which is why it's strange, that's f,
all this time. It was only about ten years ago that something new was discovered within them. Looking over the oldest manuscripts, we have medieval documents carefully copied out by scribes working with ink and vellum. Researchers have found a pattern, a code, hidden in the text to understand it. You need to know that ancient greek music use the scale of twelve notes, as opposed to our modern scale of it, and what researchers have discovered is that Plato's text is practically littered with patterns of twelve, in fact, perhaps to drive the point home. Every twelve line contains a reference to music. It seems that Plato add something to hide. Why Will it comes down to religion? You see in his day the Greek Pantheon ruled life gods, like Zeus, were worshipped by all and central to how they viewed the world around
but a mathematician named Pythodorus had threatened. All of that because he believed the true building blocks of the universe were numbers and mute for a very long time, students, pythagorean thought, were persecuted, sometimes being forced into exile and Plato wanted to declare his allegiance to this new philosophy without shouting it out loud in the forum. So he hid it from the religious authorities who felt threatened. It seems that music has always been a controversial topic from the halls of Athens to the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame. Music has been seen. I some as an art and by others as a threat. But few arguments have lasted as long as one in particular a claim,
That has been used for centuries to strike fear in the hearts of good people and to hold back progress in a field that has given us so much beauty. Some music, it seems, belongs to the devil, I'm Erin Monkey, and this is lore. people it seemed to do anything without adding music think about just how many- Thence in our lives have music woven into the occasion, graduation ceremonies, weddings, even fewer, girls. All of them have a place for music birthday parties, sporting of
since an bedtime routines for new parents just wouldn't be the same without songs. So it should come as no surprise when I tell you that music was also front and centre during the witchcraft panic that swept through Europe, England and Scotland a few hundred years ago, No, a lot of the stories you heard about accused witches and their trials and executions tend to focus mostly on which marks an interrogation but plain along with it all in the background was music. In fact, music was rumored to be a significant part of witchcraft and devil worship during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, both through singing and the plain of instruments and much of what we know about that comes from the confessions of accused witches during that time. Whether or not these victims were actually witches. The larger points is the one I want to focus on that music was a foundational elements in the folklore that gave us these stories descriptions of music,
typically included visits from the devil himself. One woman in one thousand six hundred and sixty two claimed that the devil would appear among them, singing and dancing, while passing out his own twisted version of the Eucharist through bread and wine. Another common report was the devil's voice, sounded hollow and gusty and was always accompanied by instruments what sort of instruments well in England, the stories about the devil, usually included mention of pipes and a Saturn stringed instrument that sort of worked like a loose or a guitar one. count from one thousand six hundred and eighty one of a coven meeting in Somerset England describe the devil as a man in Black who visited their meeting, played his pipe and let them all in a dance. France had its own stories to the pipe was still present in those were
but other instruments joined in as well. One young woman named Mary, who was interrogated in one thousand six hundred and nine reveal that the witches Sabbath she attended included, trumpets, tambourines and violins. Apparently she said everyone they're experienced extraordinary pleasure and joy, but it's probably Scotland that holds the most texture and information and it's stories. In fact, it's thanks to his 17th century. Scottish writer named George Sinclair that we know that it was commonly accepted that each witch coven employed a devil's piper someone hand picked to provide music for their means, but the folklore about music and witches runs very deep there. One of the most famous which trials in scottish history took place in North Barrack, leading to hundreds of accusations and a huge number of deaths. But one of the events that was said to have happened was a gathering in a local churchyard there about a hundred people were accused of showing up to participate in a ritual and at the centre of it. All,
music. One of my favorite scottish stories about the devil and his music comes from the one thousand five hundred and ninety six testimony of an older woman named Isabelle Cookie. She claimed that a few months before her trial, she had been part of a Sabbath gathering on all her. eve during the ceremony she and the other witches all danced with the devil between the hours of midnight and one I am According to her confession, though, the devil wasn't plain the pipe very well so she approached him pulled the instrument out of his mouth and played it herself much to the enjoyment of the rest of the people gathered with her. It was colorful fantasy conjured up by a woman who is most likely undergoing intense torture and interrogation, but it was also convincing to everyone involved so much so that she was executed a short while later six decades. After that, the witchcraft panic
but still spreading like wildfire throughout Scotland, and time had allowed the folklore around the devil and his music to grow and expand a bit more. So when Alan Guthrie life of drunkenness caused her to fall under the critical eye of local authorities. They assumed there was a darker reason under torture. She named about thirty others, who were also witches, and ultimately nine of them were execute Helen was a young woman. When her life took a dark turn, it seems that she struck her younger sister in a fit of anger and the rest, in injury ended up killing the poor girl not long after she found herself in the churchyard, with a number of other local women who are known to be witches when the devil appeared before them. In the shape of a man carved from black iron. During this meeting. They did all the things one might expect from a common of witches. They cursed ships in the nearby bay causing them to wreck. They helped one man transform
to a pig and then watched as he destroyed and neighbours field, and they even engaged in human sacrifice. right there on the same list of crimes was the active dancing but the devil to the music he played for them. It wasn't a throwaway detail in a darker story. It was a crime in and of itself, and she would pay the ultimate price for it. Helen got three spent the next two years. Life in jail along with her daughter, JANET and then sometime during sixteen sixty three her sentence was carried out. She was ordered to be strangled to death and then her by he was placed in a barrel of tar, lit on fire and burned how there was nothing left but ash, but here's the thing. Almost all of the stories come to us from this period of history are about groups, are the devil awry at a meeting played his music and danced with everyone there for a very long,
I'm the stories were almost always communal, a group effort, but all that started to change in the years that followed a new story began to appear. One that painted very different picture, rather than momentary gatherings with demonic music at their core every now and then certain musicians were said to be single. That musicians, who were hand picked by the devil himself. She claims she did it because she had been cheated. Janet Watson was much like a lot of women in Scotland in the late sixteen hundreds she was poor and powerless and most days were challenging, but every now and then there was a glimpse of hope when she said
into the church. That day in one thousand six hundred and sixty one, it was to attend the funeral of a local woman who had passed away. This woman was said to have been very wealthy. The polar opposite of JANET, but death had created a unique opportunity. During the services tradition dictated that an offering plate would be passed round than the money collected, it would Divided up and given to the poorest among them, including JANET so in one of the relatives of the deceased woman, stood up and began to collect donations. She felt the warm glow of hope in her chest, but when the few girl ended. The woman who had gathered the donations did something bad. She stood up stuff the money into her purse and then quickly walked out the door and in doing so, took all of JANET's hope with her. It's easy to understand how upset JANET was when she returned home that afternoon. Angry bitter frustrated with her lot in life
and it was in that moment that she would later claim that the devil appeared to her. He asked her what the problem was and she told him he asked her what she needed and she That is well, and then he laid his hand upon her head and made an offer. She couldn't refuse give me Breathing beneath my hand, he said- and I will give you gifts as well and JANET complied becoming known after that, as well dancing, JANET Janet's gift from the devil was dancing, but it's a powerful example of the deal that dark bargain that a person could make the easy exchange of their sole for his powers. Powers that often straight and the world of arts and music and entertainment, and it's an early example of a story that became all too common as the years passed by Giuseppe, was another of those that had been rumoured to have made
to deal born in sixteen. Ninety two in the part of South Eastern Europe that is now called Slovenia. His father was a middle class merchant and his mother had deep connections to some noble families. But while his Their dreamed of Giuseppe following in his footsteps, the boy had other ideas child. He had fallen in love with the violin, but because of the pressure is put on him by his father. He kept it in the background of his life dreaming of his chance to do something more with it later, because he was good at its very v. Good at it in seventeen ten? He left home at the age of eighteen eloping with a young woman and skipping town in search of a better life. Obviously, his family was it pleased, but he was finally free and that's what mattered
and soon enough. The young couple had settled down in the italian talent of Assisi, taking a job at the local monastery as a violinist in their orchestra. It was during this time there that something changed in Giuseppe. According to the story, it's all because of a dream he had one night in seventeen thirteen. We claim to dream of a meeting with the devil and in this dream, happy handed his violin to him in order to learn whether or not the devil was good at plain it, and the answer is yes, The song Giuseppe heard was so beautiful and so skilfully played that he lost the power to breathe in his dream and once he woke up You rushed over to his violin and attempted to replay what he had just heard. You failed to capture it completely, but it became the start of a new composition, one he titled the devil's Sonata after that Giuseppe took them. music away, he was soon discovered by some visitors from the city of Padua in northeastern ITALY. Would
for him to be the most brilliant violinist they had ever heard, not long after that, he and his wife moved to paddle ought to see what the rest of ITALY might think and they loved him over time the Italians began to consider him. The most talented musician alive in seven in twenty six, he founded his own violin school, taught many students who went on to become stars in their own right and even came the first known buyer of a violin crafted by Antonio Strata Vari but he never released that dream inspired song to the public. Why well to hear him tell it? He felt nothing but disappointment with its quiet He had heard the music the devil had made and his conversion failed to live up to it. The difference between them nearly pushed him to quit plain entirely. I would have in my instruments and abandon music altogether. He later said had I possessed. The other means of subsistence, Giuseppe thirteen
passed away in February of one thousand seven hundred and seventy, but it wouldn't be until one thousand seven hundred and ninety eight, almost three decades later, that his devil's Sonata would be published and afterlife of hiding it out of disappointment. It became his biggest hit ever eclipsing. The rest of his over two hundred compositions Popularity critics hailed the music as the beginning of a new era for the violin. Some claim that it couldn't have been written in seventeen thirteen because it was just to mature and ahead of its time, but sadly, Giuseppe tar Teeny was no longer around too
ask about it. All we are left with. Now is the story of his dream: the legacy of his talent. In that one, brilliant gem of his son. It seemed to come out of nowhere a song, but some say was a gift from the devil Niccolo had died far too young, at least that's what everyone around him believed. The boy had been born in ITALY in one thousand, seven hundred and eighty two, but at the age of four he contracted measles in the effects were devastating soon enough Nicolaus body stopped moving and began to go rigid. I can't imagine pain and lost. His parents must have felt so they gently
and carefully wrapped his little body in a shroud and began to prepare for something. No parents could ever be ready for and then, when all hope was lost, moved. It was, in other worldly, miraculous resurrection that would stay with him for the rest of his life, because looking back recluse, this was one of the moments that people who spoke about him could point to say. Yes right there the deal had been struck. Niccolo grew up in an hour. sized home. He had a brother man, two sisters and his father ran a local shop in genoa on the western side of ITALY, where the peninsula connects to Europe and from a very early age. Music was a part of the lines, his father played the mandolin and now shied away from letting young niccolo try his hand had it soon after he. Move to the violin by the age of six. He was better at both instruments than his father by eight. He had composed his first sonata and that's when his childhood pretty much vanished.
His father recognise the potential and essentially cut off all leisure time. From that point on and his mother was rumored to have had a dream or she begged a mysterious visitor to make Niccolo the best in the world From there his career just kept on growing at the age of Levin he put on his first public performance in his home town of Genoa. A couple of years after that is father, took him to Padua hopes of meeting with Alessandra Roller, one of the most famous composers and violinists of the day, when they arrived roller, was sick and bed. So his wife did it let the boy haven't audience, but We're leaving Niccolo noticed one of rollers compositions sitting on a table beside a violin, so he precocious Lee picked it up and played the new music Legend has it that roller heard it from the next room over and asked his wife. The name of the virtuoso who had come to visit Niccolo, went on his first real tour at the age of fifteen, but like a lot of chance,
ass, his father was proving to be more of a hindrance than help most of them. He earned went into his father's pocket driving a wedge between them. So in seventeen. Ninety eight at the age of sixteen niccolo packed up and left home strike. in out on his own. For the first time. The next thirty years were wonderful and difficult, Nicolaus reputation continue to grow, leading to fame across the country. in eighteen, o five win, Napoleon's sister prince Maria Anna visited the Tuscan Court and LUCA Italy. He was brought in to give a concert it, that the applause from the audience was so loud and drawn out that monks had to stop it from getting out of hand after that he stayed on at the court's. Giving performance is three times each week, which meant that and to find new ways to keep things fresh and entertaining in one performance. He removed all the strings from his violin, except the g and ease strings and then performed ache.
conversations between two lovers. It sounds like it could have gone terribly for him, but he pulled it off much to the delight of the audience. He was known for putting other limitations on himself to like a juggler, putting on hand behind his back to show off just how skilled they are Would you scissors to cut a string in the middle of a show and then masterfully adapt without Messina beat he wants? even put on a performance with only one string and then composed a whole not around it called Sonata on the fourth string, but he had problems too, with fame and wealth came addiction to gambling and a never ending revolving door of lovers. Many times he was or to sell off his violin to pay back debts. He owed to others putting his career in jeopardy, but thankfully he managed to hold on one of them a violin that has become a legend in its own right. According to this
Niccolo found himself without a violin. On the eve of a concert. A french merchant happened to hear about this and offered to lend him his own instrument, a violin handcrafted by Giuseppe, nearly a contemporary of strata, vari maker of the famous Stradivarius violins. It said that the performance was so powerful and the instrument so alive in his hands, but after the show, the french merchant simply gifted the violin to him. Over the years, Nicolaus Health became more and more of an issue. There was surgery to move and abscess from his jaw and another foreign infection. In his leg he began to suffer from ass row, intestinal issues and his teeth were falling out through it all. He played and audiences all over ITALY fell in love in March.
one thousand. Eight hundred and twenty eight he debuted on stage in Vienna, which has been a major goal for him since his youth over the course of twelve performances. He would go on to cement his place in history as one of the greatest to ever pick up a violin and the stories about it Simply incredible, one member of the audience claimed to see the figure of the devil, seated behind Niccolo, guiding his finger, an elbow and directing his bow, the song. He at the time position, known as the witches and other person boarded a similar vision on a separate night with the same description of the devil he saw local musicians were selling their own clothing to buy tickets to his Vienna performances. English pianist, Johan, Baptist Cromer. Was there he would later report that he watched as Niccolo did the unthinkable tuning the g string down to F a notes not possible on a violin and, as he did
the devil could be seen behind him, guiding it all with his red, demonic, hands. Those Vienna performance Settle the matter for most people Niccolo, Paganini had clearly made a deal with the devil either through his mother or on his own, and that was the source of his talents. He denied it, of course, because why would he but it was better to be known as a truly skilled violinist than just an average Italian with a supernatural gift, but it never helped and fans continued to believe the rumour looking at its clear that Niccolo had become an early nineteenth century version of a modern rockstar, crazy stage, antics, wealth and aim and an abundance of women and drugs and drama, and likewise stars of the nineteen seventies. It was all too common for the old guard to look at him and only see the devil at work. Niccolo continue to tour for another decade, visiting far off places like Prague and Berlin,
Paris. He cast a spell one audiences everywhere and dash the hopes of aspiring musicians who doubted they could ever match his skill. During one performance in London in eighteen, thirty one his talent was so mesmerizing to the other musicians on stage that, even though a book caught fire on one of their tables. No one noticed it because they couldn't take their eyes off him. in eighteen, thirty, two alone, he visited thirty different cities and gave at least sixty five performances in the span of just three months, he was described as a human skeleton, gaunt and sickly, but that he would instantly come to life the moment his bow touch the strings. It was as if he was dying in the violin.
Was keeping him alive toward the end of his life. Niccolo was a different man. His eyesight had diminished and his voice was rough and plagued by coughing. He retreated away from the public that loved him and found peace in darkness and solitude rather than on stage in the limelight, but none of that would arrest them he made on the history of music Nick allow Paganini died in eighteen, forty at the age of fifty six, while away in France, the Janjaweed genius was gone. in the world would never hear him draw his bow across the strings again like a blaze. In fire, his life and career had been bright and fast, drawing countless others to its warm glow, but it was aflame that seem to consume
him from within turning a man with so much promise into a shell of his former self burned up some say by the flames of hell Some people defy our expectations. We have assumptions about what we are capable of and when someone rises above that bar were left with a dilemma. Either we build They are far more gifted and we could ever be or waste with our minds with something less rational that their exceptionalism comes from outside source. For me, she's, like Giuseppe tar and Niccolo Paganini, there was a lot to come to grips with early brilliance, extraordinary talents and performances that made difficult things seem. Effort
It's no wonder that in an era when nearly everything with somehow tied back to the christian church, the people around them assumed some dark power was at work the natural explanation turned out to be the most supernatural option as well that the devil this figure a fascination in full in almost every ones mind at the time had somehow given them the cheek codes necessary to rise above us all and in the process these talented individuals became ledge. in their own right. They sit on that blurry line between real life and mythological status that very few people ever achieve. It's only natural that stories about them persists, even after so many centuries A Paganini violin serves as a reminder of that other worldly talents upon his death. The instrument was not
passed on to another human being, because he feared letting some one else put their fingers on it. Instead, it was gifted to his home city of Genoa and it's been considered a national treasure ever since its estimated to be ensured for over thirty five million dollars. Paganini body, though, didn't get. same immediate respect, thanks to all the stories that swirled around about his talents and the fact that he failed to make a final confession to a priest from his death bed. The church of Rome denied him a good burial. It seems that even though he had denied it in life, the stories of the devil still control him in death. for a while. The body was kept in the city of Parma. It would take years before the Pope would relent and allow the musician to be moved back to Genoa, but no burial was allowed.
I dont fully understand how his body was stored and displayed, but it seems that his rumoured deal with the devil had kept him from finally resting in peace for a good fifty years. Finally, city of Parma allowed for a proper burial. Today you can at his elaborate tomb and pay respects to a man who transformed music mesmerized audiences around Europe and arguably became the first Rock star in music history. In two thousand nine, a new chapter was added to his story, though a locked box was put up for auction, which contained a lock of the musicians, hair, a gift from Paganini himself to a friend at admirer back in eighteen, thirty one and it our scientists to run a few tests. Now it was believed at the time the Paganini had died due to tuberculosis, but the chemical tests river, the different story, one that shed new light on the final years of the musicians life. It seems that the hair,
a massive amounts of something that should not have been there. Mercury historians now think they know the truth. All those many years of lovers had left Paganini battling syphilis, a disease that was commonly treated with doses of mercury, many of the symptoms of mercury poisoning line up with his final days, gastro intestinal issues, loss of sight, a preference for darkness and silence and big personality changes. Every bargain is made up of two sides, each trading, something in return for what the other has to offer. History might be filled with rays of humans trading. Their souls were powers from the devil, but that doesn't mean our normal everyday trade offs are any less destructive.
Niccolo Paganini, it was fame that turned out to be its own kind of devil. So many good stories involve a deal with the devil, but while those tales have routes in historical events from hundreds of years ago, that is a mean the folk lore has faded away. In fact, if you know where to look, you can they'll find echoes of it in more modern stories- and I have just the one to prove it- stick around after this brief sponsor break to hear all about it. This episode was made possible by stamps, die, come if you're, a small business owner you're busy enough as it is. You have time to deal with the hassle of going to the post office with stamps dot com. You can skip the trip and never waste other dollar or minutes stamps that come with you print official postage right from Europe.
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your phone at the top of the homepage and then type in the word lore that stamps dotcom offer code more staff. Stockholm never go to the post office again. Robert Life wasn't always about music born in Mississippi nineteen eleven. He was the grandson of enslaved people and the son of their posts, civil war counterparts working in the cotton fields, labour supply to be easier since the Emancipation proclamation, three new cars two additional amendments had given newly freed enslaved people, more civil rights and reconstruction was dismantling many of the systems that had led to the civil war, but during the four decades leading up to Roberts birth, a new breed of southern politician had risen up known as the Redeemer
wanted to return to the way life had been before slavery had been abolished. So Roberts, parent moved around a lot looking for work that paid fair enough wages to support their family. around nineteen. Sixteen, though something changed historians today, Refer to it as the great migration over the following six decades: oversight: million african Americans would move out of the south in search of a new home that honored their new riced. A Roberts family wasn't one of them. Maybe they couldn't afford the journey, or perhaps family ties kept them in Mississippi, but regardless it left teenage Robert with fewer friends and more time on his hand that's when he turned to music. First, it was the mouth harp and then be harmonica. After that he moved on what's so many other southern men had played the deadly bow think of it as an incredibly homemade guitar, a deadly bo is basically a piece of wooden board with a nail sticking up from each end, lean wire, is strong between them. Running
in the middle and in the neck of a glass bottle was pushed beneath the string like a sort of bridge. If you watch the first two minutes of the music documentary, it might get loud, your watch, guitarist Jack White, build one and play it at utterly fascinating to watch the deadly bow with cheap, easy, but a far cry from a real guitar. In fact, the name itself is a pair of slang, words that essentially mean absolutely nothing, but for Robert it was something and by late, nineteen that had it had driven him to seek out local musicians like Willie Brown, Charlie Patten and Sun House four lessons and experience, and they tolerated him. It seems he was good with the harmonica, but all accounts make clear. The Robert was simply not that good with a and and then one thousand nineteen thirty Robert left town, he connected with two other
physicians, Tommy, Johnson and PETE Wheat straw, who lived in Hazel, hearse, Mississippi and started to learn from them and pity wheat straw becomes important to our story for a very specific reason. His nickname. It seems that most folks just referred to him as the Devils Son in law, one of the things they often did together was walked down to the local cemetery, sit on the tombstones and play music long into the night Their legend says that it was during this time away from home that Robert performed a ritual at a crossroads, a common symbolic location for the meeting of two worlds, Some say that was where he traded his soul for eight years of unparalleled talent. when Robert Return home his arrival was legendary, as the story goes his own. Friends. Willie Brown and Sun House were playing a show in the little town of bank up in the top left corner of Mississippi when Robert walked in a guitar, honest.
The younger man asked them to take a break and give him a shot on stage and despite their doubts, they both agreed when he was done Son, Willie and everyone else in the room were left with their mouths hanging. Open Robert Johnson had left home with almost no talent but had returned a master and, from that moment, on his fame would only grow, but friends noticed something about him as well, Robert seem to always be aware that people were watching him play guitar. If he felt like they were trying to go. lessons from him. He was known to stop in the middle of a show and just walk off stage. You never agree to teach other musicians any tended to practice by himself. But whenever he was doing was working for him nineteen thirty six, he finally headed into a recording studio to lay down a number of songs, a yearly or he headed to Dallas to record more, but it was the last time he would commit his music to vinyl.
In August of nineteen thirty, eight Robert started a series of performances at a small joint called the three forks just outside of Greenwood Miss city during his time. Their friends said they watched him become far too close to the owners. Wife. It was an uncomfortable time bomb, just waiting to go off and on August fourteen, that's exactly what happened at night, someone gifted Robert with an already opened bottle of whisky, something that should have been a red flag. Another musician knocked about a lot of Roberts hand, but got a lecture for his efforts, so another bottle was produced this one also unsealed and run set about downing its contents later, at night when he stepped on stage Robert found it difficult to sing, not long after that he said in the middle of a song and wandered off stage stepping outside for fresh air. Two days later, he was dead The trouble was not many people knew it remember. This Was the south in nineteen thirty, eight a world where the
Community didn't matter, and men like Robert Johnson, however famous in his small circle or simply too easy to forget way to understand that is through one last story? Months after Robert passed away? producer named John Hammond, requested the younger tourist for performance at Carnegie Hall in New York City, fully expecting Robert to respond. Arguably, the greatest blues guitarist of his era asked away in the music community. He transformed didn't even know about it. Of course, his legacy still lives on today in the nineteen These we saw the rise of new musicians like Eric Clapton Bob Dylan, led Zepplin and the rolling stones. All artists who drew deeply from the well that Robert Johnson sunk decades but this would be an exploration of deals with a devil. If I didn't point out the timing of his passing, yes, Robert Johnson was twenty seven when he died. Making him a certified member
of the legendary twenty seven club, but that crossroads bargain he struck with the, the one where he swapped his soul for eight years of unbeatable skill took place in nineteen thirty, eight years before his untimely death This episode of law was written and produced by me. Aaron monkey with research by Taylor, Haggard Doorn and music by Chad. Lawson Lore is much more than just podcast. There's a book series. Reliable and bookstores in online and two seasons of the television show on Amazon. Prime video check them both out. If you want a bit more law in your life,
I also make an executive produce a whole bunch of other podcast, all of which I think you'd enjoy. Production, company, grim and mild specializes in shows that sit at the intersection of the dark and historical, and you can learn about all of this shows and everything going on over in one central place, grim and mild dot com, and you can ask follow. This show on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram just search for lore podcast, all one word and then click that follow button and when you do say hi, I like it when people say hi and as always, thanks for listening.
Transcript generated on 2022-03-05.