In this episode of the Making Sense podcast, Sam Harris speaks with author Douglas Murray about Islamism, liberalism, civil society, and the migrant crisis in Europe.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
In this episode of speaking with Douglas Murray Douglas.
The best selling author and award winning journalist in the UK he's here so
yet editor of the spectator magazine and also associate direct
drove the Henry Jackson Society, which they think tank in London, and here
its regularly for the spectator standpoint, the Daily Telegraph, the daily mail, the Wall Street Journal in Europe appears,
early on the BBC and other media outlets and has spoken in the brain,
asian Dutch and danish and european parliaments, and at the White House, Douglas
is, as you will hear,
very incisive critic of political correctness and somewhat
who is unusually engaged and extraordinarily articulate
the problem of Islamism
and our habit of capitulating to it. So it's a great pleasure to talk to Douglas.
I should say to give you some contacts that we spoke about a week ago right after the attacks in Paris.
And we speak about the syrian refugees in Europe and
Two things have moved on a little bit in the UK
in the last five years,
you're. So so that been an active debate on Syria.
Refugees. Coming to the? U S, I should point out that the Douglas and I were speaking about
the european context, which is different from the: U s it from a security point of view them as you'll hear
The voting process for refugees in Europe is near
In the? U S, that does not seem to be the case and
This is an important difference, as you'll hear. I think our ability to that these people, which is to say, understand who is coming into the country and what their ideological commitments are, is the most important thing.
Consider since douglas- and I spoke, there have been many strange and silly declarations both on the right and the left relating to this crisis. And what especially depressing is that that the demagoguery has been coming from both sides. So we ve had.
Donald Trump and then Carson and TED crews, say things like Trump said. That should be.
Registry for all Muslims and wish you start closing mosques, we shouldn't let in
the syrian refugees in crews,
we should let, in only Christians its into the vacuum left by liberal
was that reasonable security concerns find this kind of expression, because the reasonable,
concerns are being denied at every turn. For us,
the president has said that no refugees have ever become terrorists, but simply untrue
There are somali refugees living
Minnesota who have gone to fight and
age she hard for Algeria Bob, so it is just factually false.
Morally blind and politically stupid
to treat this as a non issue and every time the present
opened his mouth on this topic without describing
problem accurately avoided at all costs
the noun Islam NET,
uttering the words, islamic terrorism or political Islam or Islamism, or even jihadism
the feeling of being lied to just
more and more galling the Republicans are absolutely right to be outraged by this and there also completely crazy. So this is a terrible situation to be in
politically, President Obama has offered pure sanctimonious on this topic. He talks
not american values and the aware better than that and
disparaging anyone who is concerned about security risks associated with the refugees as lacking in compassion and his face
find live up to american values but stepped back here. Take take the personalities of the people on the right out of the equation. Is it crazy to express, as TED crews did, a preference for Christians over Muslim,
in this process, of course, not know what percentage of Christians will be jihadis or one
live under Sharia law. Zero pay- and this is this- is a mass
In fact, it is the only concern what when talking about security.
If we know that sir
percentage of Muslims will be jihadist enough.
Thirdly, if we know we can not be perfect in our filter
if we know that a larger percentage will, if not be jihadists will become
two resisting assimilation into our society. Then
No, that are given refugee or family of Refugees is Chris,
Japan is a wealth of information and quite positive information in this context, so it is not
your bigotry or mere xenophobia to express that preference. I hope you understand I'm expressing
no sympathy at all with TED cruises politics or with TED Kreutz, but it is totally unhelpful to treat him though he actually is a religious maniac like a big it on that
point. This is a quite reasonable concerned voice and the fact that we have a president.
Will not even name. The problem is giving the right enormous energy that we really don't want them to have here. So we don't talk about that. The! U S context directly with respect that
did she crisis, you'll, hear Douglas, and I try to articulate a middle position here which is
understanding the real world facts related to the migrant crisis,
acknowledging that the immediate problem of global jihad
It is not a matter of migration.
Or of already radicalized citizens in all of these societies? In any case, Douglas is one of the best people on this topic,
I hope you enjoy our conversations much as I did, and now I give you Douglas MA
Douglas. Welcome to the upon guest great, be with you
Well, thank you for doing this. As you know, we were supposed to speak last week I canceled on you twice.
For a recording malfunction in one for a cold which still lingers, but
In the meantime, the Jihad
of the world, have produced further evidence, perhaps the best in anyone's memory that we can now
live alongside them.
And is even more to talk about so I, but before we were
I've been to that end
get in all the areas of our shared interests I want. I want to spend a few minutes to talk about. Your background is too for people
Don't I know who you are in my audience when somebody asked you what you do have you answer that question
I use the all embracing term writer, which is what I do. I've been a writer ever since over be an adult and before
I started off by writing about literature. It's my first love
now in more recent years,
fifteen years anyway. I have ended up,
eating numb by necessity,.
I think rather than desire that politics, that international affairs, particularly about terrorism, particularly about security
it isn't banana political, not in particular. I think it's because I think the
have to be involved in politics. If you care about the culture and I care about the culture- and I am very concerned-
have all sorts of views on it, which I write about for a plethora of publications and and books, and so on in there
I am also broadcast. I suppose I do a lot in the UK, in particular when farmers, I'm sure your lessons can tell my action Andy S night,
like thing. I write about a very broad range of subjects. I do, but I suppose in recent years I ended up being
course more and more writing about the big issue of our time.
I wish you would go away. I wish you were possible me to go back to writing bandit return about music and other things. I love
but here we are necessary
I share your feelings of boredom on this count just
every moment spent in conversations of the sort that we are now
have as a really an extraordinary opportunity cost and its yes, I M really just last rating to contemplate all the work
that is not getting done and all the amusement not being had because of this distraction from the work of civilization,
But I saw how what percentage of your time would you say you spend on the issue of Islamism and it SAM?
well? I am, I try with my editors adverse publications to have a deal that I write, an article
That is something I love for every article I write about something I hate the fifty fifty quota never works out these days quite that much better. How did did manage to write a piece before Friday that came out in one the magazines I met spectator magazine here in the UK, which is our oldest weekly magazine? I might be some my favorite artists, twentieth century
It is Rex Whistler who was killed in Normandy, nineteen, forty for his first day of action, but with a wonderful artist. I'm
right. Well, that knows, I was actually focusing on
view of the new two volumes of tears at its complete work than you critical addition which I was really opened, guarantees
this week, but once again, I'm afraid I've spent time all my time on the
these issues and I
suppose, any more comment about it. You might hunger to stop, but my hope has always been that there would be lots more people who would say that
you say say some things. I say that
would come along and greater and greater numbers, and on that basis I can retire. Alas, alas, they don't
long in sufficient numbers but, as I say still my hope, maybe my time, I'm forty, I'm thirty six of the moment- maybe right, I'm forty, I can. I can retire from the scene
I well. I can't quite say that I wish for it, because some fulfilled
prisoners who are not familiar with your. They should know that
watching you debate on these issues, probably on a on any issue, but I think I've only culture. Debates on this topic is just a thing.
Beauty and happily use Youtube, is now full of examples of you lay waste your opponent, so
Don't don't retire until some competent disciple
regular mantle. Finally item nine, miss so ok. Well, we seem to be in
pulled to the topic combined tractor beam here is we're gonna, we'll talk about Paris,
I want to talking on Monday the Monday after the Friday, where, over a hundred and thirty, I think now people were murdered in Paris by Jihad.
I want to get into that those of a larger footprint of our concerns here, which is truly free speech.
And the failures of liberalism to protect it and the problem of Islamism and then and West
turn masochism in response to it, and also that just the related problem of identity,
attacks and imaginary grievances that millions of people find captivating so that this is much more than just a K. Forty seven
going off in polite society by dumb. Let's get into that, I think,
I are always burn a lot of fuel in talking about
there's no knowing who my audience is trying to
and then someone that there really is a problem here now that probably is not
so necessary in the immediate aftermath of Paris. But people seem to think that
like ourselves are exaggerating the nature of this problem, and so I just give that he was a doorway into this topic and I would love to hear what you have to say. You know that the young,
People who exaggerate the problem, and there are many people you underestimate it
as you say, I mean in the wake of atrocity like that a couple days ago. Is it
unlikely many people going to underestimate it, but they there are still some who do.
I would say that one of the most interesting ways
looking about. Let this is is one that the american scoring
Zalm, Daniel Pipes, says quite often which
Is it the striking thing in this whole
Our view is that it is a one way street, pretty much very few people say
I used to be worried about islamic extremism, but I'm not anymore more people say more every day.
Many more every year, I'm getting worried about this and that
in a way is a signal for hope and means that people are paying attention to what is happening. The web
they are starting to join the dots laid shore but they're starting to join it.
Lots and they are concerned about it, and, as I say, I say, I grew that I think is a one way street
I've never heard anyone who said you know I used to worry about the persecution of religious minorities,
Islam, but I dont anymore.
Nobody says you know it used to be worse, allowing streams and twenty years ago and so on.
So all these things and aware of
bloody parts of it.
Bloody learning curve- and I said
for those of us who care about ideas and about writing and thinking. Speaking in the idea of free inquiry, ended
I suppose, one of the most saddening things about all this is simply that it seems to recall,
to require events always rather than reason.
To propel most people into realizing. There's a problem
and that is very disconcerting- it's very sad because
Obviously, we would wish that most people
since a reasonable arguments, listen to reasonable summaries of the problem and and and acted and thought accordingly, but that doesn't seem to be the case and recent events will, I think, just bear that our further yeah yeah people
have a hard time taking our enemies at their word is. Is it really
nothing speech doesn't count even when the speech entails a crystal clear discussion of war.
They plan to do want to do aspire to do only had they had the power to do it and the ink
and evidence ever accruing that they are accomplishing many of these aim.
It's just stay, I find it secular people tend
I doubt that anyone really believes what they say. They believe it just a they did they absolutely
just? Don't they can't imagine? Anyone really believes in Paradise, and I've told you was
there's this many times, but may I
literally met anthropologists, who have told me
that no one believes in Paradise and no one is ever motivated by the content of the religious doctrines,
Always some other reason, and this
here we are in the presence of someone like that. I was at a academic meeting.
Were debating these issues, and this was it ever. This is the kind of thing this person said in public
name this person for an alarm in sheepish about now it's got a trans gotta Tran is is, it is an anthropologist who is incredibly influential he's he gets meetings with
Various governments in he on his ears, inserted himself very much into the dialogue about terrorism and Islam and
all the rest. But he is someone who told me in private, even both in public and in private, when I said, listen just level with
we're standing in the men's room at the SALT Institute, and he said he looked many
he said, nobody believes in Paradise he's either
presuming to be a mind reader because
I know that everyone is line, even those who are willing to blow themselves up new and even
were willing to celebrate their children once they do in its is the greatest deception in human history. It that's the case you I mean that
for many years marveled at the capability of reasonable and intelligent people too
puts reasons into the mouths of tourists. The terrorists never asked for,
and also to come up with increasingly bogus
now demonstrate be wrong explanations for why things are happening? You know, I am, I think, tank Vanderdyke society
London, weaver allies. Every single person convicted of Islam is related offences in America, London.
UK and last fifteen years- gonna ongoing.
What does he only project was kind, but actually just as the statistical analysis of people. I wonder if we did that was that some years ago I got fed up with hearing people saying, for instance, with terrorists. The we're dealing with references are suffering from a lack of education, obviously not through demonstrable, not true, but I used to demonstrate it won't do. By giving the anecdotal cases murder of Daniel Pearl was
and in school of economics. The people who blew up my expire in TEL Aviv from Kings College in London, two thousand and nine.
Try born. I was suddenly inversely caused London, I'm just focusing on about a square mile of London said Anne. I used to give us
right. Don't was always worth its worth. Doing. Listen, statistical analysis that we had no actual hundreds of cases and good,
you know in the EU can shape is now actually the terrorists in America and in Britain that have been convicted were not met, putative cases or disputed Kayser, and there are too many people have been convicted, are disproportionately well educated, disproportionately likely to attend to the university this,
fortunately likely to have done further education so unit one by one. You can shoot down these things, it's laborious. It takes a long time costly, but you you, you can shoot these things down and I think that we are in the process of that at them
and you don't hear that so much anymore, you use
sure you do from some people, I'm entire grandma done long fur and right,
his enemy of mine with on the radio in Britain this morning, saying that was to do that integration educate.
Shinola, nothing, but fewer and fewer people. By that, I would, I would argue soap,
What this means is you whittled down to? What is the point? What is the cause? What is the propulsion- and this I say- is up
a long, slow, trudge that people in
real western democracies are making towards the truth and
it's some it's going to take a long time, but things like this do take a long time because
There are so many reasons for us to want to avoid the truth, because its
it's very worrying. It has all sorts of very serious implications and one thing lacking:
bills mines- maybe oh my god, if that's the case, some we're screwed yeah
and the other things that make this so difficult to talk about.
For instance, I was noticing,
even in you're. Even in this conversation, so
of the mad work of liberal demagogues orient if people who
Maajid, Nawaz and I are now calling regressive left us has- was effect
even in the way I was listening to use of France's you brought up Daniel pipes.
EL, damn now Daniel pipes of someone who I dont know directly, I've never met him. We have had some email correspondence and past I've read some
of him by habit is has been some years and I've fallen.
Him and so not totally familiar with his staff. I can't really
which is to say that if someone's mention
Daniel Daniel Pipes, as you just did, there is
between me and his name, some residue of
the charges of bigotry that have got into my head in the same way that no doubt charges
betray against you or me have gotten into the heads of others, and so I notice it that
kind of a bad odor associated with his name. And I guess I can they many other people for whom this is true and for whom it is almost certainly unwarranted right. But
yeah. I just don't have the time
to read everyone's books, disappointed us to watch everything. That's have said on Youtube and so
not being able to that some of these people. I have declined to make common cause with them.
Another example. The person you I know have collaborated with before. Who are you
seen one of his talks and found him really impeccable, but he's often vilify
being a big man. That's Mark Stein Rights. I'm gonna have to do
so I would like to ask you about them both of them, but you can decline to talk about their cases, but I'd
just. I just want to point out how insidious this is because here are people who
I just simply having had the time to-
read in any depth and yeah yeah, because people have called them big
it's. I am now wary of making common cause with them, aligning myself within four, even forty in their stuff. When I happened to see it, unlike edifice, nautical
because I don't know how that's gonna blow back on me dealing with my own charges of bigotry yeah
If you say I mean I mean you have as it were a bigger problem than I have on that, because you think so
identifies a liberal, as was the left wing. I don't you
no it wasn't, we should get into that this point. I'm not even sure what that means. We should just like other little red means either. I'm not short, it means either anymore,
and saw, but I've never never to be cared for that
I am in all sorts of ways regard myself as a liberal in all sorts of ways are regarded by some people is being left wing, but I don t care about it and I think a more identified as being a right wing or or small, see, conservative and so on.
And I don't I don't mind about the labels. Anyone to tell the truth. I know it might be different in an hour
met in Europe and in Britain these days. I think that these things are measuring less and less than were losing patience with this game, because you see
if the whole game is played on the left terms as well as it were, there
First of all will lose because there there is no possible
did he have confronting very lies societal issues only with one fragment of the political spectrum and its also very clear. I would say by now that, though, the anatomy at LA I've got some of my best friends on the left, but it is very clear to some of us that the left has been the
problem on dealing with these issues. It is the left that has been throwing around wilful and I think deliberately knowing
That's not true,
negations against people. You know I've. Often
that, with the modern less since, certainly the end of the cold war, they basically had a supply and demand problem. They want racists, they want not seize, they want
the goods and that surely, thank goodness, certainly my society, I think in yours, therein pretty short supply, and so these people have to find that they want they want to supply of bigots and racists and fascists, and actually the supplies extremely small.
And then people there, they demand a two small in number: two really give them enough of the political identity,
so they stretched out. They deliberately used as offensive terms as they could and used them of people that they must know, do not fit that label
and I think the result is by the way, among other things, the way of denuded certain terms
of any meaning and that this is going to come back and bite left in a big way, and I can see this happening Europe all the time at the moment. You know the accusation of racism, for instance, I don't think it's gonna wash for very much longer
I just don't, nobody cares as much as they used to about
because they have seen the left use it on everyone.
I've seen it fee is I've. Seen I've seen my black friends
Racists, I've seen my black friends called sellouts and cocoanuts and all sorts of things I've seen the most vile.
She'll abuse of racial minorities by the left, and I don't care
this anymore, it's too late to be willing to be blackmailed by p
who are fundamentally insincere in their insults, yeah, but there's still seems
a mystery here. I agree with you and, as some have often remarked on at the attack, to expand
used here are just shockingly dishonest, but the commitment to using such tactics, the fact that people see
no ethical problem in accusing
would have been a racist. Do they know, isn't a racist or fascist using they know a fascist their them there must
some underline urgency motivating that they must think that that the ends
justify the means. In some sense, animals is politics.
But what's amazing is that they are, and certainly on, the topic of Islamism.
Functioning as de facto apologists for theocracy. So this is the fact that they don't see this. The fact that this or that I don't care about this. The fact that
daddy politics and their concern. For you know, generic brown skinned people
generic immigrants trumps any concern,
they should otherwise have about real fascism and real theocracy.
In real human rights abuses that still strikes me as somewhat mysterious. I feel
I'm in the presence of people who have made some kind of
reverse fustian, bargain where's, it's like they ve sold their souls to the devil and they got stupid in return Emily.
Like a chubby just just before the atrocities in Paris, the pre
if new story was that
students at Yale where we just saw they see these students. You know in their shrieking narcissist
These are among the most privileged kids in human history and they became
moral and psychological invalids in response to a polite email about Halloween costumes, so some
and it was very strange on the left right now what the hell is going. I can I give one explanation of what it is another another conservative who, I am sure, will what would would would make you tingle with with slight fear.
They were, if I mention his name and American gazetted, we used to be on the left, a move very much the right David horror of it.
He said some years ago, something very interesting about nineteen sixty eight now we know where we might have all sorts of issues about
The he said. Something to me, I think, is far more true today, which is it
Surprising thing is not that young people would rebel. Young people always rebellious is something that young people do the surprising
thing is. Why did the adults given now? I think this is far more relevant to nineteen turf of two today, rather
nineteen sixty eight, the amazing question which hovers over Yale University is: why do the adults sit and take it and the kids can run rampage? Why? What?
I happened to be in. This is the really large problem which which, which
Islam is another terrible people simply taking advantage of some
we need to say to the shrieking girl whose Effingham blinding at her professor. You know what
or not. I hope this is not a home before you see you
the it's a very different thing and, what's more, if you can
not cope with Halloween costumes, then you ve, got
play city university, because
we're. Gonna have no chance of dealing with quantum physics or show
spare or Heidegger. If Halloween speaks you out, this much
you're a useless person and you're gonna go into a useless career
Because, if you a lawyer- and you have done,
to Yale, but you're too sensitive
to hear about rape cases, you're not gonna, be able to represent any one in a court of law, so you're no use for the law. You no use for literature because you might read a novel which will trigger you. You're no use for the science is, you know, use for anything and that's what the adults
should be saying that should be telling the kids to grow up and the adults have lost their confidence, and that is the most striking thing to me:
and then- and let me just say one other thing about this. This whole thing of the of the the
the the weirdo, sir,
cool obsession, US trust
the gender, I didn't
CS. I ve got a penis
can still wind glamour woman of the year, a ward and who are you? If not only not only you have to
spare me the woman. If you sound not have been tie woman, despite the fact I've got a penis still Europe's biggest and then and then
find them. You gotta find Caitlin Genoa attractive if you don't find you attractive. Yet I want to sleep with cape and genuine, even bigger
Yet this is not an actually to cite the other person. You just said that would trigger use, Am Harris. Remarks. Time said this the other day this is the conversation we're having. When the mullahs will new cuss. Everyone will be
discussing whether somebody is trust
gender, despite the fact that have not had any operation. As a woman in Britain called Jack Monroe, let's fatuous, far less
wings so called anti poverty campaigner fatally talent this individual, this Magua,
has recently come out as troms gender. She says
by the way she's not gonna, do anything about it. We just have to call her transgender regard a response
but she's not gonna, get a penis put on her and she is not going to have her wrists reduced or taken off or anything and she's. Not yet we ve just got us.
a normal sexual pronoun. Now there's Jack, Monrovia, pink newspaper, I'm gay! I read some of this crap, the Pink news
they ran a story about Jack Monroe becoming transgender? Could she says she is? I think she just wanted to build a publicity. They run away,
about her and they ve got to say their Jack Monroe wrote
peace on their blog saying
I mean it settled upon the language. Apart from anything else, anyone who cares about our delicate and beautiful language should turn away now, but we'll all be discussing whether somebody who hasn't got
seeing whether somebody who hasn't got a penis can be a man and whether somebody who s got a penis can be glamour woman of the year when the Islamists come in with Kalashnikovs. It's pathetic!
down in our society and we have to rectify. It is worse
Well, I'm for those who were may just be introduced. You again for the first time in this part, cast there you have a team,
of the kind of ire. That Douglas is able to someone in the midst of a debate and that's it
here, unfortunately, which I dont have and which I did I think, may perhaps that part of my brain was damaged by too much meditation, but it bad for you
what is it certainly bad for this and are you you have this gear and a hitch obviously had it, and it is incredible useful, so keep that well. Oiled
now to the substance of what you just said, there were persuaded that the fact that you're gay does that, give you any more freedom,
say what you just said. Are you also gonna get hammered for that? Let me doesn't give you doesn't give doesn't give you any more freedom as it is all about politics then be fooled,
homophobia, Transphobia Islamophobia, all these things,
shut up and let me speak and don't think anything different from me.
I've never had a single, better credit from the left for being a
a man opposed the radical Islam, of course not. Why would I don't want it by the way I don't want their pets and their pandering and their em, and and and anything like that,
but you know I see, I see all of these things used against people all the time. It's politics, they don't really care about anything else. Whenever I was focused on them
for a second, because in terms of the anti intellectual ism of all this, for me, is really the course it people are focused on what you think more than how you think, if you do not think
what's been prescribed in the Canon of your side of the political spectrum.
Presents an immediate problem for you
any in any train of thinking that seems to test those bound
Raise or God forbid, leads into some area of novel thought or a position that doesn't
a line with all the of the predictable ones on the check list of left and right.
Then you are anathematised and and yet what you think.
It is not what is important here. It's always how you think it is how you reason it is the fact that Europe
A little good chains of evidence and argument and if you're not
liable to those things you
are simply not in touch with reality in an ongoing way, and you are an unreliable witness to every subsequent event. Me all you,
views are not on the table to be model
I'd buy new evidence and new arguments. If you push
a conversation in a direction that is uncomfortable
again. I find this especially on the left, although it is it similar to what
It happens in a religious context when you begin to challenge the veracity of scripture or any other dogma.
If a reliable chain of reasoning and evidence begins to push up,
since the boundary of some leftist shibboleth you just reap storm
personal attacks and lies, and there are no rules sure, but I mean why would there I mean these people. As I say, the fighting for everything that they think
believe him. Why would they not play is dirty as they like? I mean I think. A more interesting thing is, as it were, white people don't do it back. We dont go back for very clear reason, which was a week. We think there should be some decency in this world.
But you know I owe you could at any point decide to turn round with as frivolous attacks on our enemies as they do on us
I think we could perfectly easily turn round to say you know the prom with,
green Wild is he such a pdf file? Is such a pdf file, and you know that
problem with reason. As long, he just can't stop shocking kids
couldn't do that. It will be as frivolous and as untrue as that
constant smears of their opponents. But we don't do it. Why? Because we
The belief in the truth, because we don't want to pump out lies simply to further political agenda,
we ve got a bit of decency and that's what I think we have to hang onto that. I am very glad that by and large people of our thinking do, let's talk about that
in what century? Are you a conservative, several different ways? I mean that one is that I.
Got a very conservative instinct and I'd. I don't I'm not. I don't, like the term progressive, I dont, like I don't like this term. I don't like the idea. I don't like the idea of progressing too
is what I think a lot of the fundamental things of progressive, so called politics are all things that should make people suspicious and all sorts of things.
The idea of a levelling out of society, of of fighting it
till the day when everyone is utterly equal and so on. There are parts of it that a true and under under good and large parts that are obviously something else I believe in in
whereas conservative, because I believe in retaining the things that are good and and think very often that a lot of so called progressives want to trample on loan
those things. I think I suppose in another way also, I believe in tradition and I,
there are some things that are good because
we have been doing for a long time and they reflect the wisdom of experience and collective experience and that that in itself is a is a part of politics that should be deemed to be at least something that has worked
so so a lot of things. That is this. I would, by the way
say. I mean this is different to a considerable degree, to a lot of american conservatism and certainly for Latin America.
The commission, Britain most small, see conservatives like me
would you know see and Edmund Burke, for instance, and somebody we admire right- and that is, I think, rather different in american tradition, but
I suppose I had one of the most important statements of my former conservatism, which is that he saw
our role as being the two two former and
role of culture to two to form a unity and pact between them.
As you have gone before, those were alive now and those who are going to be born and that the vote you have to be very careful about destroying any particular end of that pact or breaking the pact and its it's that
I think, would make me conservative passing on laws and traditions
I have seen my
Decesaris well and have done well for them and giving them justice, cynical and meaning and and and all sorts of other things
Then security and passing them on not, I suppose this is the crucial difference with the left me, not believing that one can create a utopia in politics. I think this is it. This is a very important point, if I may,
I myself politics, it seems to me, is taking on too much significance in our societies these days it might be to do with the decline of religion. There are
the factors, but I know I hear of people who, who in Britain
when the recent election happened. The conservatives want all these people of the left with there was a colleague of mine, but take him I a competition to find the most ludicrous response
left, but there were people who were claiming they had cried every day, United woken up every day, since the election remained
it wasn't a horrible nightmare burst into tears. My view is, this is a totally wrong headed way to think of politics.
Politics is not about everything to do with your life. It's about a bit of your life and the orderly governance of our society
but it's not look that the means through which she make people good needs. Not for me,
through which you make people happy when people when people think that politics is met, gonna make them
happy or thing. I think they must be taking something, no yo YO
personal life makes you happy culture makes you happy
whose Alexander Hats- and I think you said you did- that culture and art
In the summer lightening of human happiness, so the only guarantees we have who who,
which he would want. You know
Publican contender to give them that new would work
a Democrat condemned to give them that it's it's crazy,
this reading, of the role of politics so
To worry about that
left. I think it is among the things that makes me makes me conserved. I think maybe I'm just a problem with translation here across the pond
because certainly ninety percent of our budget,
described as the M, the terrain of cost
it isn't. My I certainly can align with, but all of that, once you bring
into an american context is vision.
Aided by a level of em,
and religiosity in Bamboozle, meant that it's just you know when you talk about tradition
in Alabama, or even in Pennsylvania,
sort that would
the commission is of the sort that would prevent you from believing in evolution right and they would right now. That's the problem
yeah. I would prevent you from believes in any problem.
If your presidential candidate, who happens to be a Yale train surgeon right, I may say so, is it sir? Well, that's not that by the way can I say that when you send to national lists, none of it is this is that we are very lucky and in Britain rather specifically in England, and I suppose in Scotland, as well, about whales and rather less in Northern Ireland, we very lucky in the form of religion which we have inherited a wounded form of christian
amity, it's a cultural form of Christianity, undoubtedly one in which belief actually is is it is not that important happens? It's it's quite different from the Christianity of parts
America, and I suppose you mean nearest you'd, get you might get on the coasts, the form of a Pisca paganism that that was that was close to it, but it's not remotely fundamentalists. The idea of being a fundamentalist Anglican is this is so ludicrous that you no one would put the two words together. That's partly because of the fact that anger collision process, the ninth Lisbon, the United Kingdom in England, was with sorted out the church
state problem some centuries ago and made a m made a Meda, an interesting reconciliation whereby effectively the state owned the religions, but but the religion had a place at the table. That was very important, but that all sorts of compromises happen.
Let's have meant that by the twentieth century, it isn't any decent remotely weird by the women, as there are books about this now, there's one only a few years ago from the directive
diversity, church, Oxford, University, call them and call them christian, atheist and quite people
would regard themselves that I call myself a questionnaire is because, as first battalion philosophers have said that the product of what he ah evil not is is important.
But you are a product of that just as our jewish atheists, and indeed, as we now know, thank goodness and more number must be made by the but what they ve come from.
Is not something that necessarily can be completely ignored or necessarily should be completely ignored. If there is worth in it, then that itself should be M should be considered. That's. Why did I dont like the wholesale ridiculing of all religions? Some people, I think of it- to glibly- do so,
Would you detect some daylight between yourself and me,
and some of my colleagues may I add, of her a very long time, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchin.
Daniel Burton and I were being described essentially as a four headed atheist, where the new
and you know that there are differences between.
Yes of emphasis, but also just differences of view to what we believe to be true or important their button. The
a picture of a very strident attacks
on all religion. Yes, it in principle, because it's so much of it really all of its relevant US rests on a claim about
The divine origin of specific blog registry on its face ridiculous and disproved by their near the contents of every page,
books. Is it has like you, you aren't fully aligned with that project. No, I'm not. I don't remember that. I'm not forever
his visit by me. One isn't I don't apply this by any means to you or to two Christopher. I have a
I have a problem with something that is. It were some
your admirers of ended up doing, which is to say
the problem is own religion, and you see I find this a weasel way out. I think this is one of the ways in which people avoid the problem lucky. I can understand
people think it should be that the problem is all religion as opposed to the problem.
I really want a real problem. Exactly we asked
I haven't in NAM energetic enough on an odd spelling out. Why that's confusion? I have to get less sleep at night and an Christopher also was very clear.
I have a residual. I am sure my me saying this little problem with Richard Dawkins
That has an amusing background, Jim, I might Naomi relating it for a minutes rich.
And I were meant to be doing a debate a few years ago. The Cambridge Union, where am I think the plan was that it was him and me
Beating up a couple of my mom's resounded great to me out here afforded enormously of course, as you know, actually, muslim religious leaders never actually turn out for debate, and I don't know if you ve ever debate about me they're, just they didn't don't debate various sort of scholars and cedar scholars and and publicity seekers do, but generally moms steer clear of it very clear reason, which is that they know that they are well look like idiots and what they believe obtained believe will be disproved
is it the right to avoid debate on their own, but anyhow I was looking for. Does it turned out that we didn't have any moms, but we did have a Rome Williams, sheepish, former archbishop of Canterbury and Terek Ramadan mentioned before they their enemy
but unfortunately, Richard I think it was riches full. The motion became stronger and stronger and harder and harder as it were, and it became there's no place religions in the twenty first century. I thought that was a preposterous
thing, and so I switched sides and em and won the debate for the other side. Despite the fat, I gotta talk to either of my road on the other
site, because I've been so rude about the archbishop end and so vitriolic about paragraph it ended. I think we agreed. I would speak last, he said, and he said he wouldn't have that Eric, because I doubt you spend a whole time attacking me and I gave my word. I wouldn't her only spent half, as we have heard from him
but but the book, but that I tell you this because it is this, is it has another Segura this, which is that I have also been a bit rude about Richard in that he em. I think now he has changed on this, but suddenly, some years ago he used to give his long a bit of a soft ride in compared to Christianity, and there is a famous interview which he did on out
with some people May Hassan, where maybe a sign read the opening of chapter two of the God, delusion amazing peace rhetoric about how God is the Galileo has merely most I'll appalling disgraceful disgusting figure in all of fiction. So this was read to him on Al Jazeera and into your said to Richard Dawkins. I know you believe that of the God of the assessment is that yes, I do quite rightly
interests had me believe out of the God of the Christians and rigid said I do quite rightly and then into his head and what about the God of the Koran? And this little Flickr went across the channel
eyes and he said the girl.
Problem, I know what about and
I wrote a piece after this saying that this wasn't surprising and a surprising was response. Richard Dawkins, Professor Dawkins, were simply demonstrating the survival instinct of his species. Her, for I was I was ably.
Within gag reporter it, I recall, did everywhere I, when the real risk. Richard quite rightly took exception to this and said with a next to him that I owed him an apology. I gave him a sort of a vast origin about because he has actually and did actually later in that interviewed refer to him. You know ridicule the idea that profit
flew around on half human always and always kept crap, and so he did. He did go into a bit more, but but I knew exactly what was going on in that moment, and Richard Dawkins effectively came up against that cliff, which we all know is there.
Which is when what is true and what needs to be said is right at the point where it could screw everything in your life up, not because it isn't true, but because your on Al Jazeera and the entire
muslim world could be watching and you may very well discovery
leave. Your house, you ve, got to go away for a bed, you gotta go into hiding and was so I don't it's a bit crew. I ridicule him and even his example could actually. I think we should always done amazing work in all sorts of ways and his career, but I understand the slight reticence and its a bit cruel of me to try to pick up on it when it has occurred, and I don't think it occurs so much now, but no, my main beef is with
people, the sort of twitter warriors who responded after Paris the other day by saying the problem is all religions and an eye. I think that's a cop out driving,
say. Actually you know what the response to them.
Energy, Haddest, Islamists, going round Paris gunning people down for being in a restaurant does not mean you. Ve got a clothes like Anglicans schools in England, but do a perfectly good job of educating kids. It does not mean you need to crack down
rabbis. You know in synagogues across Europe in a way. This points to a deep, the
A coward is underneath underneath the cowardice in our time with you. I think that is you and Christopher and others made
it possible to say all. Religions are untrue.
Who all religions can be terrible? All of this is true, but.
The thing is in a way
You ve also giving people the ability to say we ve got a problem with one religion at the moment
I would say that there is one thing beyond that, which is also important to consider some of us. If we do that, you, some religions are better than others nurse her. You know
Anglican Christianity, brought his march is a lot better than semi is make it much rather have the local anglican vicar come round to tee than your average fire breathing Emma
and am very lucky. You know that that is the case, and I saw the just think it needs nodding to oh yeah, I'm actually
perpetually not in on that point and since the beginning, I have always been very clear to spell out that generic atheists M doesn't make.
Any sense of ended there there is. This bias is very strong bias among self identified atheists that, if you're goin
b and intellectually consistent atheist, you have to oppose all religions. Equally,
there are equally and valid, but this is just simply
true is untrue, as a matter of fact, and his and
through as a matter of moral imperative. So
all all religions are not equally improbable, because any specific,
doctrine can be more or less at odds with what we know to be true, that the nature of the universe- and if you keep adding doctrine
to one another. Your belief system becomes less and less plausible.
Self round, is a very simple point I made and to the confusion of of many.
People, but Mormonism is objectively less likely to be true. Then generic Christianity
is because this is a simple statement, a mathematical probability, the Mormons believe. Basically everything Christians believe any believe some additional nonsense. So it's
Was it when it? Whenever probability you put it? Jesus is returned to earth to resurrect the dead you have to put it.
Esther probability on the claim that he will return to the precise spot of joy
x in County Missouri right as well
returning anywhere. So
with the Mormons the Mormons lose that probabilistic contest. There wouldn't be Berlin, if that, if there were any documents, Asian saying that my hammered had a conviction for fraud
before pretending to hear the Koran Joy Day. Did we just another paperwork?
too bad. We don't know as much about demo Homenas. We do Joseph Smith, no doubt and and this obviously for across the board. This is relevant. So when I say the specific beliefs, man,
that means that when I criticise the religious,
impediments to embryonic stem cell research? I'm not
Ok about Islam, because Islam doesn't take a position there. Islam has a admittedly crazy idea,
but nonetheless useful idea that the sole
doesn't enter the fetus until a far pass. The moment of conception
day, eighty or day one twenty, depending on which had, if you you believe, and so the islamic state could practice embryonic stem cell research
right, so Islam is not a problem on that front. On that front, we're talking about Christianity and and Judaism for the most part, but on every other,
front now relevant to the maintenance of of civilization, Islam, political Islam. Jihadism is the problem we all have to go
on, and I won't wait and my concern, which I share
now no doubt to the bottom of our listeners did heard me say it many times over, but perhaps you haven't heard it. My concern
Is that because of what has he
and to the left, and because of that,
narcissism of the small difference that to captivate everyone in polite society. Now, as Mark Stein said we're gonna be talking about the truly trivial when nukes go off in some major american or european cities. My concern is,
at a certain point, we will see
only call the far right in our own society this.
Eyes enough to call a spade
bade and light address this the problem of creeping theocracy under the guise.
The civil rights of Muslims Vanderdyke. Could I am give another example of why that is. This gets into another point, as it might be a difference between us before I to find her
clarity- I mean- I am very concerned- and this I think again, this is a matter of its transatlantic difference, but
cause Christianity in my country- is not at this stage that even yours we have fewer of these interventions that hamper the public debate and indeed public science and various things like that
than you do. It would be highly unusual now for a christian religious belief to significantly change any debate in the UK.
But there is something which the left
german philosopher yoke, and harmonise written essay some years ago, that I have often thought-
about an occasional cited is called with an awareness of what's missing.
To my mind, is the most important contributions to european philosophy in recent years is very short, but I
think this think the it describes Ulysses. You don't notice of a funeral of a colleague of his in Germany, which is in a cathedral a large church and
coffin is there in various things, are red from an said, but it's not
religious service- and there is no all men
And harmonised reflects the nascent, an end and the statement he believe
his friend was making, which is that there is a
something missing in
modern European, let's say West, which is a profound question mark that remains, and I
I think this goes to get on the alarming in a second, but I think it goes to a very, very fundamental issue, which the Islam thing is therefore simply feed
on in a way or its success is feeding.
Another continental philosophers I to be specific urban, wonderful, french philosopher
we shall do so by the book in the nineties, called Icarus, fallen.
She described modern, european, western man as being in the state that occur,
would have been an had. He survived the fall and
what she meant was. You know we ve tried in Europe and Europe being as it were in political terms and a much older continent than America
hope you don't mind my saying so, but has
in through so many things and tried. So many things and
and so many disasters we ve tried. Ev, we ve tried religion. We ve tried different types of religion. We tried different types of politics,
we tried fascism and communism and socialism, and all
sorts of other things.
The end of the last experiment, which was obviously communism after collapsed in ninety ninety. In Europe,
At the end of that, european man found himself
lying on the floor with his wings singed, and yet he still here. So what does he do?
All of the dreams have been shown to be failures, but
yet were alive, and I think this is one of the most troubling questions and I put it out
as a question, because you see what
what is happening at the moment with the Islamists.
Yes, yes, they have their own propulsion and a year
They have their own message and their own campaign and their own aims, but they cannot possibly succeed.
Unless a society like european society is so de resonated, so bereft of things to want to survive and fight for
The only will retain its camp.
Only will fight for its remaining comforts, but ultimately is not able to defend itself now. That is. The problem
I'd. Let me give you one quick. This is a bit fatuous as an example that you give your quick example the day after the massacre in Paris on Friday at the better times yet outside of yet almost a hundred people were gone down in concert, whether jihadists, the islamist line
not disabled people in their wheelchairs and shot them one by one shot: people in their teams: shop, people, your grandparents shop people in the back in the head nurse grotesque massacre in modern times in Europe
next day, this man turned up, who always turns our path to terrorist incidents, and he brings a keyboard
and he plays John Lennon. Imagine
all of these broadcasters and newspapers and things were quite taken by this again. People said how moving it was, and I think
screw that this is no time to turn up with your ruddy key,
forward and sing John Lennon. Imagine there's no countries yeah. Ok, you don't need to imagine they ve been trying it on the cap.
From the Shanghai agreement erodes borders.
John Lennon would have loved it will soon
the jihad, guess what free movement of people free movement into the continent free movement from north,
Africa and the Middle EAST into Europe and them
sure in Europe Free movement wherever you like. They love that we don't need. This rod
the utopian leninism anymore
What can we needed any other stupid ideology, but this week pitiful, let's
change our hashtag. Let's do a hash tied. Let's turn our facebook profile to reconnoitre, well, meaning but seriously seriously,
that's not enough! Being sad, isn't enough, being sad will stop no massacres? Beings sad will not divert one Islamist and your right. The biggest challenge for Europe now is that people are losing patience with the political mainstream, Sweden.
The party that generally described as far right, which was nowhere in politics. Until recently now tops the Poles, Sweden, France, Irene Le Pen way ahead in the Bin, the Presidential,
this is happening even Germany.
Even Germany is getting fed up with this, and this
is the most serious problem going on on the continent today. Your way,
you said a lot they're, all of it tremendously interesting, and I
I agree with virtually all of it. I sort of changes its shape when viewed through the lens of my own areas of focus and expertise, so going back to the Habermas essay.
There is something missing, and this is either this
something that I have been writing about really.
The beginning a there? In my first book, the interface
In my last bugger, I explicitly tried to focus on in my book waking up that the subtitle is,
Bert wildly without religion yeah. I was trying to take the stink off this term spirituality so that we can, as it was actually a minute that
Hitch was also in favour of, although he viewed yonder trial they differently, but he didn't want to walk away from the word, but we we have walked away from big and useful words. Like spiritual.
They and evil and sacred and profundity?
and when there is a kind of hollowing out of meaning and an attendant
lack of conviction that
is really not helpful at a time like this and that that void keeps getting refilled with iron, age, philosophy and tribalism, and
yeah the the most bullying forms of Religio.
The answer in America. That is an apparent
Sadly, we have. We have much less of a problem with theocratic Islam for reasons that maybe we could go into, but we do have a real problem with
christian demagoguery and anti signs confusion, and so it's
yeah navigating. This is a challenge because I absolutely agree.
That. There is more to living a good and useful life and preparing oneself to die a a good and noble death
then simply not believe in any religious bullshit and being a fan of science right. If you can't get,
We, then you want out of life by just cause
Sizing Dan beliefs and being scientifically curious, or at least I would argue, you can't get up everything you want, and this is not something I was planning to talk about it in this conversation, but
Your remarks said just put this in my head, I were a friend of mine, recently died and done
he was someone who had a very
orthodox life is actually lived in a spiritual community and we white what would be described as a culture of sorts, but when it came time for him to die, he got it
my age, but but came down with cancer and suddenly Biggie he, it seemed like
a happy prognosis initially and then suddenly to turn
very dire- and
Then he sent out an email saying he had. He thinks twenty four
I wish to live, and we all showed up to have can final conversations with him and what was striking about this experience for me,
but here was a cabin non. Traditional form of it but
here was someone who is virtually spindle a lot of
life meditating and putting his own mind
order he had, and he he was a
well to meet his death and relinquish his fear and attachment, and everything else that we would have made doing that with with any sort of peaceful frame of mind. Impostor
it was really remarkable frame of mind when I last saw him and How-
an immense amount of support from this community, and indeed there was a nurse
three day vigil after he died where his his body was just line and stayed a new covered with flowers, and there was music,
people coming and going and paying their last respects, and, though
Are they had their own? Can a quasi hindu ritual around this fight?
It was immensely powerful.
And it was immensely more powerful than just
calling in the authorities and we
skin the body away and works or swiftly
bearing in mind the ground for circumcised,
is like that. These private o k
regions where we have to grapple with the important transition
in life and the interest, the mystery of of life and death?
We need more than just thinking
early about atoms in the void and dump you can get more with.
I believe in anything on insufficient evidence, so that something I
thirty, four in in many other contacts, but because
the rituals and the institutions and the language that has given us
some ballast in those contacts have been explicitly religious,
for thousands of years and, if you
want to think clearly about the nature of reality. You have to push back against religion to some degree. It is just
highly inconvenient that there are not obvious secular alternatives,
They have all been how're. We need them to have at moments like this in its work and its inconvenient at a funeral.
Really inconvenient when you're talking about
societies of young people
or who are looking for meaning and
You know, all you can give limit, is lady Gaga on the weekends resolutely this is this is this? Is one of the biggest challenges is and easy? I think that what is happening at the moment, certainly in Europe Is- and I think, it's a decline in full situation which may be could be turned around. Maybe not, and it's the same for America eventually and the question is: is it true that the pleasures we ve had in the pages we wanted her to keep
going with may not be sufficient to fight for, and it may be, that those
measures are also something which only exist when economic times good. It is a possibility that was people have
Love Minerva, Gooding come broadly speaking too, as certainly goes on in Europe. Whatever your socio economic status, you can, you can do we know things about great grandparents are never dreamed of able to do in travelling, earned, enjoy all sorts of fun great experiences, so it's possible that that some of them, a mask for some of the things that were of venture they gonna have to face, has been that we ve been living through economically pretty good times. If that changed among other things, and it could change by fast, I think we will be facing a day
in reality on this and but other say the crucial thing in the meantime, it can people scams. Such people even understand what our
means one and that they mean it
I'm not sure they do, and I think that's why we ve gone through this stupid decade and more of blaming it on things which it's got nothing to do with all very little to do
because at the end of it, we still that the secular european mine, secular western, mind in general cannot comprehend that these guys,
eyes actually mean you know. There's a very haunting store. Her friend with jealousy covered. The Beirut bombings in the eighties killed almost three hundred moroccan, and
French Marines and she said that one of the things an early warning sign on the things that had baffled her at the time
that she spoke to a guard at the barracks gate. Who said that
he had seen the driver go through the truck and the more he detonate he saw. The driver go through and he described the driver to her
and he said the stranger was this- is a man having had a beard? Unsurprisingly, maybe he had them coming off, but the crucial thing was man said he was smart
yeah, we're in the nineteen eighteen. You might ask what why would
He be smiling today,
don't know why you haven't been paying attention.
That's a very difficult point to get across four people and its appoint I've been making again her for fourteen.
Years- and it say I m- is something I tried to get out
The irony here is that people like ourselves are often accused of lacking
the four for Muslims in general and for even for our enemies, but a here it's as a failure of
but they not to understand the motives of these people and the experience out of which these
these motives are rising, and these are acts of
religious worship right, this is getting given the
exquisite believes. Given the certainty that Paradise awaits martyrs, that that that there's an
absolutely nothing mysterious about that smile and its. I can t
you m of highly energizing quasi spiritual experiences that people have joining this kind of cause, jihadist,
are within their own minds, essentially like spiritual James bonds rather have
all the fun of James Bond amid all of that energy plus the certainty of Paradise, plus the
the ecstasy of no
that you are aligned with gods plan for the Cosmos and Europe you're, making com
and cause with your brothers, who you are not afraid,
the sea die because death is the whole point, the jewelry Laurens Rights, but that the looming tower. Yes,
It is good that this amazing he had an amazing scenes where it talks about how these these out Al Qaeda soldiers- and this is happening
predates all of our present problems, but that these out our cater recruits to fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan
they were trying to get martyred an end weeping with envy standing over a fallen brother who had just been shot.
By Europe, a soviet helicopter and weeping with envy over his
death, because they knew that even at that moment he was here in the arms of
they all man I'd hurry.
Has the virgin Jack And- and this may
Please be one of the one of the great queries I have about this, which is
You spend a significant amount of your time, ridiculing these stupid ideas and I spend a significant around my time ridicule.
We stupid ideas, but why are there so few of us who are willing to
any examination what you ve just
strived is this.
Sort of thing which every satirist every comedian, every student. Do you know him
in the wild every every right, her every journalist, every thinker, every everybody there.
Mates house on a Saturday night should be sure
ridiculing out of the public sphere,
but you know we live in this time, where most people wouldn't even be willing to do that in front of their friends, and they certainly wouldn't want to do it in front of strangers, because it would be culturally insensitive. And that brings me back to a point I said before
gradually. Maybe people are going to say screw that
that, if you think that you, u blowing people up, means you
to rape. Seventy two girls on the cloud, then,
Neither you nor any of your co religionists are gonna, get a moment of peace from our societies, but the problem Douglas is that it. This is just a slight modification
of the more benign version there.
Everyone is attached to end it takes the sting out of debt.
Everyone wants to believe in Paradise. Everyone will everyone wants to believe in Heaven about by everyone as every religious person, and they don't want.
And if you are going to spell out all the reasons why a belief in
martyrdom is obviously illegitimate. You have to cut much deeper than just it's not
practically workable in a world where we have to live with competing religions show, but that is possible. Let me tell you a crazed. Aren't you see? I have this theory that with
that what happened to Christianity over two hundred years is going to happen to it-
arm in a very screen space of time,
maybe a few decades, maybe a few years who knows, but that during that period is going to be unbelievably bloody
because the muslim world as a whole, including
Muslims in the West are going to hear things now that they had never heard before, and if, if
Free societies were doing their job. We would be pushing that on instead of Tipp Toe
around. You know, after Charlie,
Abdo instead of walking
in Paris with a pencil, India, everybody would walk around with the cartoons of Mohammed in their after after
after the danish cartoons affair, every single newspaper would run the danish cartoons Gazeta screw you we are not.
Muslims and were certainly not Islamists and we'll publish what we like and
Instead, we think we can help mollycoddle them, uniquely among all religions and causing them and keep them in cotton. Wool from the facts that are gonna come
way. One day anyway, let me give you a quick example of
there's an extraordinary man called Morton Storm who isn't it
average guy and all sorts of ways, is a Dane. He converted Twizel
fifteen twenty years ago invest a radical Islam using prison, namely the bikers cell and lots of stuff.
He ended up joining Al Qaeda as you do,
his time, you end up getting very high up and he ended up and eating. Indeed, knowing on our lackey, who is the pre eminent Al Qaeda preacher before he was drowned about three or four years ago,
and he was a sort of replacement for Bin Laden, if there was one in popularity sticks anyhow, you got an hour lucky. Arguably, he helped leaves the eight hour lucky because
A modern storm ended up working for CIA and other intelligence agency anyhow.
He rode evincing Mamma. We cannot a year or two ago called an agent storm.
But I asked I spent a couple days with him some time ago. I asked him: what was it that made you get out?
I didn't mean over this. Christopher was always interested in this issue.
Well, what was a moment when a fanatic rely?
Is that mine chain and
I often ask fanatics when I speak to them what it was a form of and what it wasn't me the mind. Changes also
when the examples of it, but the most interesting and away with modern storm, well
If you knew you were out women
You knew that it was soon over and you might end up working for the other side of the house
that he was sitting waiting one day, I think in Hamburg someone somewhere on the content. He was waiting for Al Qaeda drop off and they were late.
I need only been having doubts and worries and all tat sort of thing doubts about things. People been telling you about the Koran about Mohammed things
can see to add up and even been having doubts and because of Korea. The Al Qaeda
was late and ended up waiting a long time and he had a computer in the apartment with him
new, so angry sort of revenge on them. I in his anger, typing into Google contradictions in the corral and he started to read now. I think that that is happening all over the world as we speak,
can't not be happening. We speak a lot about the people who go to Google and type in our new. I know how lucky you know best head were, but we don't actually spend very much time considering,
all the people who are getting online reading the writings of critics of Islam and of chronic history, which is becoming more
mainstream, we don't listen, all think about the people who getting on a reading works by you and others,
by Muslims and non Muslims and
You know why I say this is so particularly important is because the element of doubt can be the thing that is the difference between life and death in this business. Here, the element of doubt injected the mind
The fanatic can stop them here at the point that market has made repeatedly of lay just do the unjust introduce imagine how committed you need to be to be a suicide bomber, and if you can introduce just one percent, less conviction, they're, just one percent doubt you may in fact
stop someone who, in other ways, maybe a still a totally repellent personality, but that is just not so convinced
that they are willing to go all the way
by the way is by the way. This is
That is that there is not a failure on the part of our societies, not Tipp Terry attitude towards this, an arm on our fearfulness theirs.
Become some videos and things on the net. Trying to dissuade Brits and others-
from joining ISIS, now I've
sometime when the most disturbing figures is a fact that more british Muslims of Joint ISIS in recent years and have joined the british armed forces is striking
and concerning issue. But when people have said
don't you think we have an information campaign
been saying for years. You need a savage information campaign about this. You know stop for you.
They ve muslim school girls from London going because you'll have a video which says you know what you think. You're gonna go off and get some hot guy who's hot for jihad and hopefully,
you, and so I know you, can you end up being raped by a gang of people speaking a language, you don't understand the nobody's gonna be discarded into a pit, that's what's gonna happen and we don't have the com
even to say that even when it's true- and I was speaking to somebody a little while ago,
you knew somebody who was a suicide bomber.
In Syria a couple of years ago. He was from the town of Crawley in England
he was the first suicide bomber from the UK in Iraq,
in Syria aside, he blew up a tea
syrian government prison.
And he was used for that purpose. He drove a truck industries blew up in order that some of the jihad his mates, could, I could get out and there's a video of him before his pigs
called martyrdom in which he standing that giving his video. But he doesn't speak Eric
and the guys around him up, don't speak English and
he standing on his goes fingering the Andes, doing all that crap and
and I said to this friend of his
have you seen this video, and he said yes, and I said what did you think when you looked in his eyes and his friend said to me, I thought he was having doubts and ice about was exactly what I thought. What am I doing exactly here? I thought:
I was gonna get some hot martyrdom operation that would they would sing machines about till the end of time. I didn't know I can be used to be put in a truck drive towards a building for some pointless sectarian bit of it,
conflict. If I were you
fishermen or my government or any other western government. I would pump that video around muslim communities around the wild and say this is what you'd get. This is what you get
We wait. Wait in our societies even calls these people out of the losers we should be calling about. Has yet nobody, nobody nobody's even willing to ridicule and then not even willing to cartoon oughta or to write article
about these people, but because of the fifth
there's no wonder losing
really to levels to that there is the EU that contradict
in the Koran level and in the ways in which this, the ways in which the dock
trend. Is both self refuting and stands in contradiction to
We know about the world and that many Muslims Francis believe that off
of modern science is anticipated in the Koran and it is their noses. Like air asked a number of times, I've had not round yet. So I chose to to hammer that into just to smash that into Adams would be a good thing and also to point out the? U what life is really lie.
I, the under the islamic state and under up Caliphate, isn't
There are many there, many ways in which we could disillusion people, but I think the crucial point
That's implicit in all of that is that people actually care
what's true and it what what is interesting on the left is that, because they think people are not
actually motivated by the content of their beliefs. They think that that would be hopeless.
Try to persuade some one otherwise, because
they're not been motivated by a vision of of reality. There not be motivated by an expectation of winding up in Paradise, with virgins their not being
debated buys act,
concern that hell awaits those who don't live with sufficient fidelity to this doctrine, but
the truth. Is people really are worried about hell it ever they. They actually think they're going to burn returned he if they don't live by specific precepts
and in so far as you can make that seem less and less plausible you
doing the work of civilization here in an American.
Directly engaged in its defence, but the left for the most part, is completely oblivious to this, and they just think that its ino here we have people who have had
purely terrestrial grievances,
on the misuse of american and British
foreign policy and a legacy,
of colonialism before all that, and of course, they hate
because we have divided up their country
and stolen their oil, and this has really nothing to do with it with religion. It has to do with the theft of
all the world's resources by the one percent of
living only in none too close to central park or to close,
the Marine County or
or Knightsbridge, and so is this is this is not isn't it.
I mean why more than massive non medical yet and massacres, it's all a Freud and
I mean they want the world's problems to be their fault, because, among other things, it makes it easier and, as I said, a venture to those people are gonna have a hell of a shock, as they say the great joke. What what? What's the most troubling thing for mascot
when I meet a real said, is right well in radical Islam in radical Islam, all of your lefty liberal, tiptoe
and racist, crying liberals
I have found their sadist an. I don't reckon they're gonna get on much longer, and I think once more that there should be a serious reckoning before then
against these people, who have tried to deregulate the public square in our societies, who want to talk about fake power
poems and ignore real ones who want to pull.
The parameters of the discussion of free people and free societies, and help her every day
how a terrier and dictator and feel logical fascists in it
society around the world, the people whom,
My great and flocked anybody as long as they're not have free person in a free society, those
people. I don't I don't envy them in the end, because
the way they have done it they are stopping. People
waking up in a decent way at a decent time. Let me,
you're very quick example that, if I may, if you look around the continent, now become the countries that are best equipped to deal with the problems of the mass migration crisis of the Islamists,
Sis and others are the ones which allowed a political discussion to go on.
Because they allowed the main stream to more pop and respond to concerns of the people
like coffee is gonna, be screwed other ones. Let's try to stop the discussion here
said the, but before you go, there exists is actually. As you may know. Last week I went out on Twitter. I asking our mutual followers her four questions in into space,
this conversation and far away, I'm in
ninety nine to one of the most popular question
for you was the migration crisis in Europe and just what we should all think about that. So
I want to acknowledge, were opening the door to that conversation. These concerns have certainly on only sharpened since the events in Paris on Friday. So I want
and on that topic for as long as you want to explore it, but before we get there, I just want to summarize appoint you just made which,
which is a point I actually maiden in a pot cas. I did yesterday in response to Paris. The thing that has to change it seems to me is that the obscurantism we
It is on this topic, which had been so safe to engage in an end. The charges of bigotry that get hurled
as for singling out Islam as an area of special concern, what has to happen
balance, has to swing and that obscurantism has to become as disreputable and as costly to one's reputation
as a real expression of dangerous bigotry. Now is so you
If you and I were to start speaking in starkly racist terms here right here,
we were, we reveal that were racists and we we hate brown skinned people. What that would do,
due to our careers right, just state that the cost,
That would be enormous, and rightly so.
To be an analogous cost
to lie in end and diverting
round this issue because it is Jenny
only dangerous to confuse people about what is going on here- and I will only be confident-
that we're dealing with the problem when it just becomes
unseemly to be publicly confused about jihadist
So what would that said? Please us, let's hear what you think about
the migration crisis in Europe and to what degree of recent events
in France may impact that.
We know that the issue
huge issue, which is important impossible to do justice to the third interrupt you again, but I should say that you wrote what appeared to me to be a very courageous article
In no standpoint, I believe land air listeners should look that up and in fact are linked to that on Numb. My blog, where this package will be embedded
was an article. I think you wrote. It was at least a month ago when, when the migration crisis, three months ago, very very early on when went
The worry out loud about this had to have been tantamount to some expression of bigotry for most people on the left,
So I do it struck me as very brave and very balanced and very early to be making these noises and done so. Some people should read that article, but now please, let's break
I met, my view is now it was. Then I've been to the points of entry in Southern Europe, ITALY elsewhere, where migrants coming
and as the huge number of misunderstandings. The moment crisis is not new. It's been going on for years. It's been at a high point. This year,
but it's also not assyrian problem. It is in part a serious problem, but the syrian component,
migration crisis, is a minority part percentages differ, obviously depending on which point of entry you go to.
But we're not talking about more than twenty thirty. Some people said some some points, forty percent of the migrants being from Syria
most of the migrants come from elsewhere in the world, predominantly Sub Saharan Africa, Eritrea other places so
there's a great misreading of what this is about.
People say: oh well, we can sort out the situation in Syria and that would stop migration crisis there flat out wrong. You could sought out the situation in Syria. Don't actually, incidentally, think we can. You can sort out those tend to sort out the situation in Syria. What's your plan
Eritrea can you even point to it on a map, most people
no idea what you're talking about. When you talk about these countries, I simply say: well, Europe mistaken the refugees or sir said the second point. It.
This is very large and ending the main, not an asylum issue. It is not a refugee issue, it is an economic migrants issue. That is why the majority of the people coming the vast majority, a young man. I have no problem with those people. I have no contempt
slight for those people. They are people leaving societies that are not as privileged as minors, but I do
not believe that the response to that is my
Society owes everyone in the world who wants a better standard of living, a home in my country. I dont believe it and I think it's dishonest and disreputable to pretend that you do believe it. If people want to take in refugees into their homes, they should do out my others people at my people who exercise generosity. I have, however, unending contempt for people who expect other people to be done.
This on their behalf and what we are seeing. People parading their sentiments over an issue that is
far beyond simple sentiments. What is happening in the migration crisis is a vast and unparalleled migration
of people. Germany is saying officially it'll taken next for one percent of its population this year and an extra one percent the next year after the years after that,
eight hundred thousand people. A year. Eight hundred thousand a year with an eighty million population, Sweden is taking in the same proportion. Sweden is collapsing under the strain. The government's talking about having to put up taxes to pay for the migrants have run out of houses are having to put migrants intense. Just as a swedish went to comes along,
the far right party in Sweden is now at the top of the poles, the end and so on, and you see this
We were in Europe. Europe cannot be the answer to the world's problems. I think myself that there is a way to
This is far more desirable. If it is Syria, your concentrating on help, Sir
and who are genuinely fleeing from the syrian civil war just
in countries around Syria, in the Lebanon in Turkey in any other country. It is all
ways more desirable but refuge
these remain in the proximity of the country. They are fleeing than that you ship them to Norway or caught them off to Scotland.
It makes no sense to do that and another point european leaders all said five and four years ago that multiculturalism in Europe had failed Angela Merkel set at five years ago. President Sarkozy said it for years ago, instead of Prime Minister Cameron.
What did they mean? I think what they meant was that people were living parallel lives in our societies and that our societies will no longer if they ever have it had been in recent decades successfully. Integrated,
had reverse assimilation going on and so on. Why on earth? If multiculturalism had failed,
migration was at a relatively low point. Would it not fail when it was? It is historic high? I think that the answer to this is that the politicians in Europe have been trying to follow public opinion, but the public dont know what we,
want. We want contradictory things. Only seven percent of the british public in a recent poll said they want more migration into Britain, seven percent. It's a deeply minority view, and yet the body
a young syrian boy, tragically washes up on the shores of Turkey, and Europeans are persuaded that the dead.
Syrian boy on the shores of Turkey is Europe's problem. Is Europe's problem, and so the european Public say refugees welcome or lease the proportion of them do a minority.
I have always said that this was going to have a next turn of the wheel. The european public's do not want more migration anywhere in Europe
the next turn of the wheel summer was dead, syrian boys body, tragically washing up on the turkish beach, and that caused a slight change in public opinion. But the next term of the wheel, which I had been predicting four months, was what happened when the first refugee was evolved into terrorist incident. Has now happened,
and I would predict, but people who, over this
insane policy are going to have a political gotterdammerung at some point, Jean Claude Yunker, the President of the European Commission,
try to force quotas on European states earlier this year and forces
quotas of migrants onto states. At the same time that the European Commission said the numbers were not adding
but nowhere near erratic, Jean Claude Yunker,
went on television last night and said that he did not like some of the talk of his critics about immigration and he asked them not to keep
king and invited the critics of the migration policy of Europe. To quote be serious. While I would argue it was the critics of the immigration
policy who were the only ones who were serious. It was
he was saying: if you take people in you, do not come with passports,
papers. What is your system for working out who they are, what they believed and what they're going to do and say here there was no system, there is no system
if a politician wants to say to the european public forever. Three hundred thousand people who come
into Europe, maybe only twenty odd jihadists, the european
public condemned workout. Twenty people, that's twice, as many people seem to be involved in Paris, the other
maybe that means we only need to lose four hundred people in terrorist shootouts every few months or something for the benefit of getting a hundred thousand people from the third world. I dont think we're gonna buy that I dont think we're going to put up with it. The politicians are currently fighting for their political lives and they will throw anything into the mix to survive.
But it is a horrible thing to witness- was so strange about this, so that this article, the New York Times it was last week talking about it
village in Germany, that has only a hundred,
all time residents that was being asked
to absorb seven hundred two thousand as migrants.
And has, even though those
Let me give you another quick example: Momo in Sweden, which is being famous in recent years for becoming
effectively no goes on in places which Jews their own
I'm just a hundred thousand Jews now and malware and Sweden use have a thriving jewish population. They ve been chased out largely by.
Increasing was in population in the area and so very, very violent and unpleasant things happened. The juice of Mamma
email moves remaining jewish population, as I say, just a hundred thousand people more than
thousand young muslim men arrive and Momo now every day who thinks
we think that were set is a good idea. I mean this is the thing this is the thing SAM. I cannot understand and
don't mind. Whatever vilification comes my way I'll keep on saying this:
I do not understand it. Every
age, a mainstream european leader, unlike the american president,
has said in recent years that the problem we face is of islamist extremists. Naval said it
alarmed says it Sarkozy said it. Merkel, Cameron, Blair, Brown. Everyone says it is that's perfectly mainstream and they recognise that
Some a proportion, however small muslim populations in your countries. The question I cannot get an answer.
Who is at a time when every mainstream politician admitted that that was the case,
I would you allow in an unprecedented number of Muslims into your society? What's your pen
what was the plan to change it? What was a plan to make multiculturalism work this stage here? There was no plan,
Let's forget it, so there are literally there. So, let's just linger on that claim,
you're telling me there is there
no process of varying these people.
I can't imagine what it is when you're talking about a crowd. Do
lingering on on the order of a razor wire? That's that's been set up at them
ass minute there you know in Hungary, but what is the process of vetting, however, ineffectual
it'll just give their names, and you put them on into some database and then hoped to find out later
whether or not they were Islamist a claim to be from places are not, and there is a market in Sudan, another passports because another that better too kind there are a lot.
People who tend to be children because they go through an easy process and so on people, clearly their twenties and so on pretending to be children.
And there are reception centres which affect me: try to move people up and out of the point of entry on the talent islands, on the greek islands and move them up as soon as possible into the rest of Europe, so that there is a crowning happened several years ago. Some of these places, but no an attic
system to work out. Who is who has not gone on and what is more, once people do get in there and were nobody get sent back? Nobody just a spare us, if possible, on charges of bigotry and given the short, attentions
ban of many people, though you started the segment saying that do you feel for these people have nothing against these people etc, etc. Must be clear about what
we're talking about here. We have said before that, if we could that these people,
these people, meaning that the migrants coming from from all of these regions, in my view-
truly secular. Truly,
liberal, liberal in the centre.
In human rights and rain and tolerant of diversity. People coming,
muslim world. These are the most important.
People in the world to support, in my view, the I these people should be made
immediate? U S, citizens if they wanted to the only problem there is that were now pillar.
In the muslim world of all of its intellectuals and all the people, it needs to establish some semblance of order there. So there's nothing that you have said.
Just now nothing that I would never say, is an expression of discomfort with
own skin people coming from North Africa or the Levant or anywhere else come in to the? U S,
sore or Europe we are talking about. The consequences of beliefs
and the problem here is it very difficult to that people's believes is very difficult to find out whether the person who, just
stumbled out of a raft on lesbos
is someone who thinks that die
in defence of the one. True faith is the best thing that could possibly happened. Right
yeah, and if you just ass, William, it's not
thirdly, a penetrating enough question to get an a candid answer on a much more go, go level beneath fat, never mind the case you just site which is obviously the hardest another
The most felt right now go level belief that go to adjust
simple cultural, free speech change. I was speaking in Denmark a few weeks ago,
parliament in Copenhagen, for the tenth anniversary of the publication of the danish cartoons, and I spoke to a politician-
from our side there who said they didn't want any more muscle,
arriving in Denmark
didn't want any refugees it in one. Anyone from Syria who is a muslim- and I said, but you know, isn't, that a problem
and so on, might there be some among them. Blah blah blah
politicians should look if we,
taken ten thousand people for every ten thousand people there will be.
Say, seven thousand five thousand four thousand two thousand. Whatever number you want ply, you don't believe we should have the right to publish what we think and to publish cartoons, and so we don't want them and
If you look at those who never mind the violence, quest, look at a pole,
all that the BBC commissioned after Shall Abdel in January, twenty
Seven percent of british Muslims said that they had sympathy with them
gives of the Challis killers. Another ten percent said
won't sure, wouldn't say because the spun this and said it is a great
Great news majority of british Muslims support against murdering cartoonists, but the point is, if you
hey Kin, another hundred Muslims into a country. Are you happy
that, on those kind of ratios, at least twenty
seven percent are gonna- have some sympathy with people who want to do that and actually effect,
coming from the Middle EAST of North Africa, it's likely to build
higher. Are you I mean these
the questions at our societies need to ask and which, because of the poor,
for you cited earlier, among others and many others, we could speak. We,
have not been able to have this discussion and it made
he very late in the day to start having it. I have to say that
My main concern that day, because it is so late in the day it's obviously late. In the day, we are facing a kind of emergency and its a bit is very every generation
comes to the distortion of our looking through the lens of their present concerns and imagining that
civilization, hangs in the balance in a way that it hasn't in a very long time, but.
Really do feel that we are at a kind of turning point here on this.
You, especially given: how ineffectual and dishonest and
empowering. The left has been and ideas
I really worry that if we continue to see
the attacks of the sort we saw on Friday or if we had an
aunt in in the U S that was larger than September, eleventh at which is absolutely plausible, and
data. From my point of view it would be a miracle if we avoid such a thing perpetually. We don't
It is our political landscape. Look like after that, and I just thought I feel that we are given a choice between NOME Chomsky and Ben Carson
right in terms of in terms of aid, the totality of their understanding of what is happening now in the world. I would vote for Ben Carson every time right now: Ben Short, Ben Carson,
think is a dangerously deluded religious imbecile right emitted,
had been Larsson. Does not the fact that he is even a candidate for the presidency. The United States is a scandal, but at the very least I think he could be counted on too soon,
of get this right, which is to say he kid he understands that jihadist are the enemies and yet you know we have that the masochism on the left that is so totally disempowering in the face of it
and it's just eager to destroy the reputation of any one who will work
out loud about the dynamics of this problem, as you just did on the topic of migration.
As I am worried that that the rise of the far right is now going to be another major story of our time and I M actually it'll be the Ionian SAM.
It will be the only answer in the end and it'll be thy that because of the left
now? I am aware of the pressing problem of the limits of the EU
bladder and the fact that you and I ve been talking to ourselves,
Well, how do you know I haven't been believing while others
then you're you're more practice, it is an eye, so perhaps we should close.
On that topic. Do you have any hopeful noises to make on how we might avoid that dynamic in the end- and I guess you speaking about Europe in particular- I've sent for such a long time, I'm border saying it that's. The point has always been to wait. People up about
this and to make them take it seriously in order that it wasn't left too
hide or elements or to Marie Le Pen in the future, and I'm I'm tired of making the same point, but I think it has to be met.
And maybe the days later than I thought, but
The only way to change that is for the main stream on the left and on the right not to shut itself, does not to police the borders of speech.
But to allow more speech,
to allow more open and frank discussions about some of the problems in front of us, and if that happened, I mean I I I I rotate in my feelings about this
and the left I sometimes I I tell my friends on the left. Did you in Britain, where the Labour Party is now led by Jeremy carbon?
the ideas I friends or left they come on. That's it isn't it is gave over. I mean it clearly. Is you gotta?
the most extreme socialists and support
the array and friend of Hamas and Hezbollah as the leader of the left Wing Party in Britain and his press second,
fears and unreconstructed Stalinist and his.
So the exchequer is somebody who wants to honour the dead terrorist
So they all right come on it's over, isn't it and some
Sometimes I say to my friends left in the UK. You know come on omitted.
And other days. I think I should encourage
to stay where they are and to fight for their political corner. It depends, as I say, from day to day,
but you know, as I say, it's a left that has caused a lot of this to happen and we
the left, spent all these years. Flinging
Tom Racist against people. They must have known were not racist flying bigot people. They must have realised, went back
did the only thing we have ended up doing their only role in the dialectic was to mean that if at some point God forbid, real
racist surreal, bigots came along; no one would believe them anymore and that's the left's fall
set it up, which is why I say to Hell with and by the way I don't care. I don't care about the laughing
how about always into me sign wars on the left or the police
coding, other speech coding order or that the sea
They saw the Yale that are not fit for purpose will listen Douglas. This has been a very rich conversations great to have your voice on my podcast
pleasure. Despite me, anyone that somewhat gear. No, I think it's not a problem. We should also recall that we are seventy two hours.
Comparison and ass. For me, my mood, no doubt yours is coloured by the recently that event selective as they say it again. This is the price
one of our time- and I don't think it's
excited about in our lifetime.
Fortunately my last podcast, I said I miss suggesting eating
credibly boring. I mean that's one of that. That's one of the most toxic elements of this. From my point of view, as you said, you know you,
Argue that you should be able to write an article
something? You love
everyone you write about something you hate and
feel the same way and what, whenever I try to move on to other topics, and I'm writing a book about artificial intelligence now and
only the philosophical and ethical problems,
added to that her, which are fascinating end
I'm building a an app for meditation and philosophical reflection, and these are projects that I am very excited about, want to pay attention to and yet ever since
Friday. My twitter feed is you know where the hell are you on this topic of Islamism? You know what it we need to hear from you, and and of course I have I feel like I have something to say, except that all I can do is repeat what I said a hundred times over
It is a oppressively boy,
rain phenomenon that we are going to have to live with, hopefully at a distance emilius its
You are quite lucky to be living in societies where it's, it's not more
interest than it is to have this conversation
say I'll, give it time time less again. That's what I've I worry about
Andy. In the meantime, we are well look. Maybe if we plug aware this line of maybe if we do get those new players describing earlier, I can get it
writing about. Let's turn you can go back to meditate,
a final word is inshallah. We're alive, you beat me, do it well, listen spent
pleasure and just stuck to closed, tell people where they should
for you online. Do you give us your earlier? I let her address and I've got to address which is Douglas. Came every letter k, darkness came on.
And then you can follow my blogs and various other things at the spectator magazine in the UK.
As I am part of site, it's called spectator, Dakota UK, and then I put most of my thoughts on that
right. Well, I recommend you I'll do that. I have a question about books. So now you you have you have you had any book on.
Talking about the eyes. It is no longer available.
Lemme failure is, is part of a book. I'm trying to finish at the moment much you're here,
It is now trying to finish and get it out of the way. I'd say chapter of that agenda
Sir. So it's it's me to move for the time being, but it was a year. I very proud of the fact that an EU bucket wasn
seller on Amazon. U S UK and Canada elsewhere, and particularly proud of the fact that we massively outside the Koran
We are in the best seller. Less I Frage is, I mean I know you're probably used to that. But for me that was the first and I know that I'm hired had a head start better. It's always nice to catch up,
without that was a great red to some. I look forward to the book that that's been worked into as it was also very funny red, despite the subject matter, so
a kind, so ok. Well, it will allow. We will find you online line. People follow you on Twitter. They will await your next book and dumb
I want you and, of course, in some nice people in areas that have put up offensive things I said on Youtube. Overtaken catch me there is one year will listen.
It is an honour to be fighting from the same trench with Eu Douglas. It SAM
couldn't asked right or company. So
till next wise, take irreverent
This is an addendum to the pot gasped delivered five days later,
and I said a few things in this podcast that were gifts to my critics. I was aware of this at the time, but has always interesting to see how far these people go to mislead their own audiences, about my views. Just give you a taste of what's happening online MAX Blumenthal, the fake journalist son of City Blumenthal tweeted the farm
He went on earth considers Blumenthal a journalist, including Blumenthal. That's just all the proof. You need to understand that we are on the precipice of something horrible
Well, that ellipses is obviously doing a lot of work. There I'd vote for Ben Carson every time he tweeted that out to the world this, just that
Digital death, rattle of journalism, the fact
any one on earth considers Blumenthal a journalist
Polluting Blumenthal that it's just all the proof you need
to understand that we are on the precipice of something horrible and Genk Yogurt
same thing. He retreated a meme about my intending to vote for Ben Carson.
Made a series of increased
We deranged videos about me in the last few days. He appears to be suffering some sort of breakdown
But the problem is, of course this works. I am now hearing from people who say
I've read all your books are used to be huge fan. The fact that you are supporting Ben Carson for president is a deal breaker. What the hell is wrong with you now you do know how freaked out I would be. If then, Carson became the republican candidate
the presidency. You know that right. I can assure you that if he does, I will be far more articulate on the reasons why he shouldn't be present then max.
Mental or Genk Huger will be not do that
Guys know that their misrepresenting my views to their audiences. Of course they do. This is conscious d
perception of their own audiences. It's amazing to me that there are,
just don't seem to care about this when it so blatant? But I should
verify something here. My remarks about:
Carson, unknown Chomsky were simply a statement about how dangerously out of touch with reality. The left appears to me on this issue.
You and I consider Chomsky the largest influence here now, I'm not gonna get into the details of Chomsky. His views
because there's himself in a narco syndicate list now how they differs from Marxism, you're, welcome to write your dissertation on then good luck, but on this specific topic with
rent of the global jihadist insurgency. We are now witnessing he's an
Arkell masochistic in my book
four to do a site, the ways in which the? U S has been terrible
in some of these charges are true and some are fictional, but all seem
determinate, a kind of moral confusion and political
paralysis me if ailing
from outer space arrive to Morrow and began exterminating us I'd half expect charms.
To get on democracy now and say that we deserved it after all
when putting on so much electromagnetic pollution and space junk
it's, no wonder the neighbours or pissed now in Alaska,
days many people of hurled quotations at me from Chomsky attempting to counter what I said about him, but these court
patients demonstrate no more than that. He knows that she hottest exist. They occasionally kill people, the explicit message of
breathing. I've heard him say in this area
gee hottest wouldn't be killing. People are trying to conquer the world, but for the crime
times of America,
and that is a suicidally stupid thing to believe to see
his head, is of late. I just watch the first ten
video entitled NOME Chomsky, colon
media NATO Isis Free trade agreements and humanity, two thousand and fifteen new. That's the title on Youtube. I just watch the first ten minutes
but here Chomsky can't even seem to figure out why we oppose soviet communism. According to him, it was just a quote pretext for our own greed, Chomsky users, with his term pretext all the time every
as a pretext. Every stated. Noble motive is always a pretext,
they concern about human rights as a pretext, needles,
Our concern about jihadism is also a pretext. He makes clear in this video
my concern about jihadism, isn't a pretext for anything, but the maintenance of civilization, and this kind of self flagellations would be disastrous if it ever came to power in this country. So
is when it comes to dealing with the global challenge of jihadism and Islamism. I would
our own theocratic, who recognise the problem for what it is,
even with all their crazy religious top spin off
we're delusional leftists who don't now. You can disagree with me fine, but if you are horrified that I could say such a thing, well, that's it!
prove my point: can I've been worrying for years that there will come a time when either
atheist and secularists will back christian lunatics,
because the only ones making sense on this issue and were not there yet? But if you are horror,
by what I said in this part cast or by Would Douglas Murray said. Annie
think we are totally wrong about the left. Well, great, then, can see
for the canaries and the coal mine. We are
living proof that people like NOME Chomsky and glimmer
meanwhile than all the rest of the these far left critics of capitalism in western power. And U S foreign policy can seem so terrifyingly confused about what is going on in the world. With respect to this issue,
that is possible for a liberal rationalist like myself, to prefer even the Christian write to them
as stewards of western civilization. Again, happily, we won't be faced with that choice in two thousand. Sixteen
Hey, I'm sure I'll vote for Hilary
Hilary, as you know, is derided as a neo con warmonger by the far left great. Let's hope she stays that way.
It shouldn't surprise. Anyone at this point the Glen Greenwash got into the act after this podcast was released.
She noticed the New York Times Review of my book with moderate written by your shot mangi, and apart from a couple of barbs that struck me as a little unfair.
Which were mostly directed at atheists in General and Salman Rushdie and Richard Dawkins, and as well as at my fans. I like this review a lot I was
grateful for for spreading on social media and also thanked earshot. For writing it. What it was, in fact a very positive review
he ended by calling merged. In me, role models, what
would Glenn Green a journalist, mind you have
you understand about the contents of this review. While he seized upon a paragraph.
In which your shod criticise my fans and here's the quote
Secularism is better angels, have troubled defeating the
tribal mindset. Last year I
and it SAM Harris event where a crush of fans trailed him mob, like around the venue boy end quote and Greenwood the journalist that this person is covering world events
right describe my fans this way, while forwarding this quote on Twitter. The planet's creepy is most.
I believe leader, worshipping cult, end quote: it's not ISIS. It's not Boca her arm
it's, not the Lord's Resistance Army. No, it's you guys, you're, the planet's creepy, most
I ballistic leader, worshipping cult according to Glenn Ringwald. Ok, but Glenn wasn't done with me.
He had a busy day over there at the intercept. He then tweet
the following summary: what you just heard in this podcast syrian
SAM Harris defends TED Cruises, quote preference for Chris
in over Muslims and quote Black
so bomber for objecting. Well, that's almost right, but it would take a tom. Would scholar too,
Parsec accurately Glenn knows
anyone who reads that summary will think that I supported cruises.
And that we lead in only Christians from Syria and that's not true
Has anyone who actually listened to the podcast could have told him? As I said, I think
secularism and liberals in the muslim world and certainly includes any who are fleeing Syria
should be given: U S, citizenship! If they want it, I said
These are the most important people on earth to support.
How many different ways do I need to say that
only concern is that we not lead in jihadis or their sympathisers. The point I was making about crews is it if, in
process of vat a family from Syria. We determine that they were christian well in that
cancel any concern that they might be jihadis. Is it's safer to lead in Christians? Of course, it is
Crews is absolutely right about this, but in so far as we can vote,
people, unlike crews, I think we should lead in Muslims as well
could be letting in the next I on her solely or
as was or final say, you'd imo, tar or Sarah hater. These people are absolute heroes.
Glenn Greenwell, isn't fit to tie their shoes and here
making their lives any easier. I should point out the kinds of things,
The gleamed Green Walled says in rights here. Miss
curiously raises the security concerns of just these sorts of people.
I in the podcast that the problem of vetting refugees appears to be quite different
in Europe than it, is in the? U S at this moment, which is a good thing for the? U S. So if you came away,
podcast. Thinking that I want to abandon the syrian
if e cheese to the chaos
Syria you're completely mistaken about my views, but we have to be able to talk about the kinds of concerns that
was raised and if we just letting in people
by the millions in Europe without proper vetting.
No one should be surprised when we discover that eight six
difficult percentage of these people resort
assimilation and have attitudes about free speech.
And women's rights and gay rights that are deeply problematic and, in fact antithetical to our own Europe is gonna, have to deal with that and they
a terrible job of it so far and Douglas? It only point is what makes you think this job is gonna get easier,
if you let, in millions of more people, fitting this description and that's it we have,
the stop walking on eggshells around that problem and cries of racism and bigotry from the left is key.
In all the good people to walk on eggshells and leave
The space that can only be occupied by the real bigots and xenophobia and fascists and NEO Nazis and again this is,
This is especially a problem in Europe and Douglas his
salute me right. If, if Europe ever makes a hard,
turned towards the right politically you'll, be because of how the left handled this issue.
And while I recognise that the? U S is in a much better position here politically then, Europe is
till conceivable to me that we could eventually
and ourselves in the same situation, and it
arguably worse in the. U S, ultimately, because the far right here
is generally synonymous with christian theocracy in the making. If, if you have to
think of a plausible scenario under which we would elect a true christian lunatic to the presidency
someone who actually believes that the prophecies in the book of revelation will come true. Their true record of the future given to us by
God and are likely to come true in his or her lifetime will, then it will be because of how the left handle this issue. You won't be because of game,
Rights or transgender rights or global climate change know that the left's failure to deal
The increasingly obvious security concern of jihadism will be what opens the door at least as the only path I can see, and it's all too plausible, given the likelihood of future terrorist attacks. So, as I said in the pot guess what
unless we have to prepare our political landscape for the virtual inevitability of those kinds of attack.
It will be a miracle if we avoid them entirely and
Muslims above all have to anticipate this. Muslims have to want to prepare the political landscape to absorb the
shocks and denying the problem shrieking
islamic phobia levelling down.
Charges of bigotry at
everyone, including ex Muslims and muslim reformers, who are trying to tackle this issue. That is ostrich like behaviour that could well and terribly for all of US
Finally, in the last few days, I posted an interview on my blog entitled, SAM Harris, the quote: Salon interview
and this was actually a salon interview, but as you'll see,
It was an interview that that only furthered my conflict with salon. As many of you know, I've had a boycott of salon and encouraged.
My readers a couple years ago to ignore salon, given how badly behave they ve been journalistic me and dollar, to read it on my blog, but would have
This I agree to do an interview, a salon provided that I could have complete control.
Over the words attributed to me, which it said it wouldn't at what I said at all and
that I could say anything I wanted to about salon and they agreed to this. We did the interview and then they cut everything. I said about salon Inessa, my friend Jason Callicratidas noted on
twitter even when you're doing an interview about your own integrity, and you cut everything critical said about your integrity. That doesn't speak very well for your integrity. So what I did I published the whole exchange on my blog and I left in the park
that salon cut out and that's highlighted in blues you can. You can see that and many people found this very instructive, and then people can't believe how a website like salon operates, and there are men.
Them now, but so long as the most prominent and I think, actually the worst, because it often reprints material from alternate, which is the bottom of the bottom.
Of the abyss, but, as you see, I turned the tables on salon in a way that really worked out right in fact
I couldn't lose because in agreeing to do that
either they we're gonna, have to publish my criticism of the magazine or they were going to have to cut it, and then I would point out that they refuse to publish
criticism of the magazine, so it was really a no lose situation from me and that's. Why did the interview and done,
I also have a chance to say many of the same things. I've said in podcast like this, about the left and about jihadism.
But it came out in a unusually complete form, is along interview.
So, I would encourage you to read it because I think it's probably at this point the best statement of my views on on these topics
and the interviews done before the Paris attacks that came out after so you should know that as well anyway.
I hope not to be in the habit of having to add addendum like this to park ass in the future, but this one seemed worth doing
and once again thanks to a Douglas for taking the time, and thank you to all of you for listening
until next time. If you find
There are many ways you can support it.
Review it on Itunes or stature. Whoever happens to listen to it. You can share
social media with your friends. You can blog about it.
Discuss it on your own podcast or even supported directly, and you can do this,
subscribing through my website at SAM Harris DOT, Org and there
Fine subscriber only content, which includes my ass,
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Transcript generated on 2020-03-24.