« Making Sense with Sam Harris

#241 — Final Thoughts on Free Will

2021-03-12 | 🔗

In this episode of the podcast, Sam Harris presents his full argument on the illusoriness of free will—and explores its ethical and psychological implications.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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I have said, and written a lot about free will, over the years and I wanted to get all of my thoughts for most effective thoughts all in one place. Many of you find my argument against free will to be very provocative and even off put in, and many of you mistake it for a philosophical argument that doesn't make tact directly with experience. So I won't say if I can do this all in one pass and actually bring some of you along with me into the zone here. So here's the starting point. Most people believe that they have a self which enjoys something called freedom of will and in fact this feeling of self and the feeling that have everywhere will really two sides of the same coin. But here we will focus on free will be
in many ways is easier to deconstruct. Now I found my surprise that this is a very sensitive topic. And here I want to offer the usual disclaimer if it makes you uncomfortable to think about these things. you need to be the judge of whether this discomfort is healthy and worth pressing into, or whether it actually bad for you and, in the latter case, just skip this journey. me and is probably not an accident, that many people find the prospect that free will might be an illusion to be provocative. Because the idea of free will seem to touch nearly everything: people care about morality, law, politics, religion, public policy, intimate relationships, feelings of guilt and personal accomplishment, most of what is distinctly
human about us seems to depend on our view in one another, as agents who are capable of free choice- and I say seems too because I don't take- it- does Really, but it can take a little while to see this now people believe that the challenge is to reconcile a subject of fact. The fact that we experience freewill with objective reality. The way physical causes and events arise in the universe. But I want you to examine this one.
hope to impress upon you is it the illusion of free will is itself an illusion. There is no illusion of free will and there are no subjective facts about it, to reconcile with the truths of physics and euro physiology. In fact, our conscious experience is perfectly compatible with a scientific picture of reality that does not stop or change character at the boundary of our skin. Many people worry that the consequences of dispensing with free will must be negative, Obviously, this wouldn't suggests that free will actually exists, but, generally speaking, this claim about negative outcomes isn't true: either losing one's belief in free will can actually a very positive,
What's it for one, it removes any rational basis for hating people and will explore the later on. Let's begin at the beginning, the popular conception of free will rests on two assumptions: the first that each of us was free to think and act differently than we did in the past. We chose able, we could have chosen, be he became an accountant, but you could have decided to be a firefighter. You had chocolate ice cream last night, but you could have picked vanilla. He certainly seems to most of us that this is the world were Lebanon. The second assumption is that we are the conscious source of many of our thoughts and actions in the present. Your sense of deciding what to do in each moment seems to be the actual origin of your subsequent behavior. You feel you want a region pick up an object,
and then you do. The conscious part of you that wants an intense and perceives seems to be in control of at least some of your thoughts and actions. However, there is every reason to believe that both of these assumptions are false. Of course, there is very little disagreement over the fact that events. have causes everything that arises seems to be born into existence by some previous state of the universe. Now, maybe there's some place to stand where all of this proved to be an illusion. Maybe this one would have you the cosmos as a whole or real.
Itself and to say that nothing has ever actually happened right. That change itself. The process of cause and effect itself is an illusion. But let's leave that possibility aside for the moment most of the time, things certainly seem to happen. Lightning strikes a tree and a fire starts a few lines of computer code to cause your phone to ring at people are born, they paroled, and then they die everywhere. We look, we see patterns of events and all these events at prior causes, which is to say they depend materially and functionally and logically on other events that preceded them in time and most relevant like for our purposes all of our conscious experiences, our thoughts, intentions, desires and the actions and choices.
result from them are caused by events of which we are not conscious, in which we did not bring into being. You didn't pick your parents, you didn't pick your genes, therefore, and you didn't pick the environment in which you were born, and yet the totality of these facts determines who you are in each moment and what you do in the next, and even if you think that you have an immaterial soul, this amount animates, this machinery, you didn't pick your soul, The next thing you thinkin do can only emerge from this totality of prior causes. and I can only emerge in one of two ways lawfully, that is deterministic really like one domino just getting knocked over by another or randomly now. Randomness is a very interesting concept and is not clear how
Pervasive it might be, there are arguments against determinism, especially in quantum mechanics. The suggest that subatomic particles themselves make quote free choices, which is to say, there's nothing in the prior history of the universe. The tells them what to do next and if what a particle does next doesn't depend on the past, will then there's no theory that can predict what it will do. Next, I'm not taken a position against this at the level of particles, but I am claiming that this kind of independence from prior causes would not give people the psychological freedom. They think they have it for two reasons. The first is that there is every indication that larger systems like human brains,
if more deterministic early but more important, randomness of any sort would not give people freedom of will, there is no will in randomness if he ever did something that was truly random, that had no relationship to prior states of your brain. If it literally came, of nowhere that wouldn't be what you or anyone means by free will. You would think what the hell did. I just do right, and why did I do it? Such an action would be precisely the sort of thing we would deem out of character because it would be by definition out of character, To be in character is to be discerningly in line with prior tendencies. Re follows a pattern. Something truly random would on analyzing right that they would like.
early, be no answer to the question of why you did it with true randomness. There is no why, That's not what we mean by will much less a free one. That is not psychological continuity through time. The problem is that neither determinism nor randomness, nor any combination of the two justifies the feeling that most people have, that goes by the name of free will, the feeling their free to think and do more or less what where they want in the present in a way that allows them to be something other than a mere concatenation of causes or mysterious influences to be.
Something other than a natural phenomenon? People don't want to believe that they are in any sense like a wave breaking on the shore, but this is how causes propagate or seem to propagate. Many scientists and philosophers have acknowledged the problem here, but most appear to think that we must live with the illusion of free will or you for my eyes about it. I am arguing that this is a mistake, so what most people mean by Freewill Walthers controversy over this among philosophers and scientists, but I think the central false into mission is pretty clear and results from our subjectivity, structured or appears to be structured again. The feeling of having free will is directly connected to the feeling of being herself.
with respect to free will and amounts to this. Most people feel that the conscious part of their minds, the one that is experiencing their experience, thinking their thoughts feeling their feelings is in control of their mental life and behaviour in some real way. They feel that they are the source of their intentions and actions, not merely mental and physical states arising in their bodies somehow, but that they are initiated by their conscious mines in some way. The fact that something is happening in a person's body isn't really the point. People do not feel free to beat their hearts were to stop eating them. They don't feel that their cause in their cells to divide or metabolize energy. They fulfil their control of their livers right, but they do feel
there the source of their thoughts and voluntary actions in any given moment. They feel that they are free to think and do something else now. Perhaps you feel this, Perhaps you feel that if you get rewind the movie of your life in return?
the universe to the precise state it was in a moment ago. You could think and behave differently. I think there's little question that most people presume this about themselves and about other people, not philosophically, but implicitly, as I felt a sense of how they exist in the world. This seems to be the very essence of what it means to hold ourselves and others morally responsible for our actions. If someone does something to harm you intentionally, you feel they shouldn't have done it right. They could and should have done otherwise, and you have a grievance against them. That is very different from how you feel about a malfunction
in peace of machinery or a gust of wind that might produce the same harm her. So the reason why discussions about freewill or so fraught is that declaring free will to be an illusion strikes at the very heart of what people feel is true about their own subjectivity in each moment and it seems have employed actions for a wide variety of moral norms, as will see the Implications are not what many people think you there are, morality actually improves what we recognise it. Freewill doesn't make any sense, but again the consequences of believing in free will or not are quite separable from any claim about. What is true, one simply can't argue for the reality of free will, based on the imagined good effects of believing in it and with respect to was true. The problem is, there is absolutely no reason to believe that freewill exists.
there's no objective reason and there's no subjective reason either. In the end, a belief in free wells analogous to believing and if you re, wound this piece of audio. I might finish this sentence some other way. As I said traditionally, this has been view today. Philosophical impasse. We know we have free will because we experienced directly, but I just can't he had to make sense of it in terms of physical causation but as they hope to show you. There is no impasse, because there's no experience all reason to believe in free will. either the experience show you the conscious, this of your inner life, the one who's hearing these words right now you aren't the author of your thoughts, intentions and actions. Rather, thoughts, intentions and subsequent actions simply arise and
modest. But this doesn't mean there's no difference between voluntary and involuntary behaviour. There is, let's take a closer look at this reach for something and pick it up now and pay attention to what the experience is like. now whether you are aware of it or not vote, Her behaviour is structured by intention and expectation. Your brain produces a forward looking model of what about tat, and if the model is violated, you'll notice, you know what it's like to reach for somethin to accidently, knocked over, for instance, successful manipulation of an object feels different, then just banging into it and produce different results and voluntary actions can be consciously interrupted, which is to say we can experience an impulse to stop them and his impulse is effective and of course they can be deterred by other people,
and by legal penalties. An involuntary action such as a muscle, spasm or a reflex, or a seizure or tripping and falling, can't be deterred. So there are many differences here he what someone does voluntarily says more about him about what he wants, for instance, about what is likely to do in the future Then an involuntary action does doing something on purpose reveal something about ones purpose in life. We don't need a concept of free will to know it is these differences, as I made clear later on. Most of our ethical judgments remain unchanged when we give up the illusion of free will, but not everything remains unchanged and a few things that do change are actually quite employ
I'm going to want to flag what is novel about my argument here. Most philosophers and scientists believe we have an experience of free will. That is undeniable and the challenge is to make sense of it in terms of a picture of causality. That seems not to allow for it whether thus deterministic or random. I'm claiming that we don't have the experience we think we have there is no experience of free will show us look more closely at our experience. Consider how your thoughts arise, because they are the basis for most of your complex behaviour, certainly are most deliberate behaviour,
pay attention to the process of thinking. You'll see that your thoughts simply appear in consciousness. Very much, like my words, in fact, you can observe that you no more decide the next thing you think, then you decide the next thing. I say: no, what are you gonna? Think next, you dont know it your thoughts, determine what you want and intend and do next
Your thoughts determined your goals and whether or not you believe you ve met them, they determine what you say to other people and what you don't say in fact thought determine almost everything that makes you human and most people feel that they are the thinker of their thoughts and therefore their author, and this is one way of describing the feeling of self subjectively. Speaking as a matter of experience, there's no thinker to be found in the mind, apart from thoughts themselves, there's no subject in the middle of experience. Everything, including thoughts and intentions and counter thoughts and counter intentions is arising all on its own and the feeling that there's a thinker, in addition to the flow of thought, he is what it feels like to be thinking without knowing that you're thinking
is the feeling of being identified with the train of thought is passing through consciousness in this moment. But if you pay attention to how thoughts arise, you'll see that they simply appear quite literally out of nowhere and you're, not free to choose them before they appear. That would require that you think them before you think them. So here's the question. If you can't control your next thought If you can't decide what it will be before it arises, and if you can't prevent it from arising, where is your freedom of will at this moment you might be thinking what the hell is he talking about here is what I'm talking about. You didn't choose that thought either. If you're confused by what I'm saying you didn't produce your confusion, you didn't decide to begin
fused. Conversely, if you understand what I'm saying and you find it interesting, you didn't create that state of mind either if your mom distress wandering to thoughts of lunch, and you missed half of what I just said. You didn't choose to be distracted. Everything is just happening, including your thoughts and intentions and desires and most deliberate actions. You are part of the universe and there is no place for you to stand outside of its causal structure as will see. There's no one to stand there either right, you're, not a self. In the end, you certainly not a subject in the middle of experience
or on the edge of it you're, not on the river bank, watching the stream of consciousness, because, as a matter of experience, there is only the stream and you are identical to it. This is not a metaphysical statement, I'm not talking about how consciousness relates to the fiscal universe. I'm talking about your actual experience in this moment. As a matter of experience, you are not having an experience from some place outside of experience. There is only experience you not on the edge of your life look
Then you're not sitting in the theatre of your mind, watching a life movie and the feeling that you are the feeling that you can stand apart from everything is happening and the feeling of being free to choose the next thing you do or the next thing you notice. The next thing you pay attention to this feeling is itself part of the movie. Yet more appearances in consciousness, there's just cut business and its contents in this moment again, this isn't just a philosophical point. Most people think the free will really exists as just hard to map onto the physics of things or doesn't exist. We just have to admit that were living in the grip of a powerful illusion, but that's not what I'm saying I'm saying: Freewill doesn't exist and effect of such an incoherent concept. That is impossible to say what would have to be true of the word
for it to exist. There really is no way for causes to arise. It would make sense of this notion of free will, but it making too much more fundamental claim about the nature of conscious experience. I'm say there is no illusion of free will. If you pay attention, you can see that your experience is totally compatible with the truth of determinism, or determinism plus randomness was from little experiment just close your eyes and take a few deep breaths.
And now think of a movie can be one you ve seen or just one you know. The name of right doesn't have to be good, can be bad, whatever comes to mind, doesn't matter and pay attention to what this experience is like a few films of probably come to mind just pick, one and petition with the experience of choosing is like now. The first thing the notice is that this is as free it
voice as your ever going to making your life, but you are completely free. You have all the films in the world to choose from and you can pick any one you want, and you can pause this audio and take as long as you want help us do that again, her. I want you to become sensitive to this process. So forget the first film and choose another again pay attention to what you actually experience here. What is it like to choose? What is it like to make this completely free choice? He got a new film, ok to it one more time I just clean slate. Think for a few more films and choose one. Did you see any evidence for free will hear things if it's not here.
it's not anywhere rights. We better be able to find it here. So us look for it or, firstly, set aside all the films you ve, never seen or heard about and whose names and image rear unknown to you right. Needless to say, you couldn't pick one of those and there's no freedom and that obviously these you couldn't have picked one of those if your life depended on it. But then there are many other films whose name There are well known to many of which you have seen but which didn't occur to you to pick presence, you absolutely no, that the wizard of OZ is a film pages and think of it. have you thought of the wizard of OZ apologies. But you get my point you can swamp in the seventh seal or mission impossible or the dear hunter. There and if you heard this for the first time, any thought of all those films
Well, then we really are living in a simulation, and it's all about. You apparently so consider the few films that came to mind right in light of all the films that might have come to mind but didn't and ask yourself: were you free to choose that did not occur to you to choose as a matter of neural physiology, your wizard of OZ circuits we're not in play a few moments ago for reasons that you can't possibly know and could not control based on the state of your brain. The wizard of OZ was not an option, even though you absolutely no about this film
and if we could return your brain to the state. It was in a moment ago account for all the noise in the system, adding back any contributions of randomness whatever they were. You would fail to think of the wizard of OZ, again and again and again until the end of time, whereas the freedom in that It's important sea that whether the universe is fully determined, ordered missive randomness. The pictures the same determinism gives you know, freedom. Obviously it would just be mere biochemical com, cork, but randomness gives you know freedom either. If you knew the next choice of a film would be there to their random process, some quantum role of the dice. That would be the antithesis of what most people mean by free will. There's no way
in that and, if that same, random influence appeared a trillion times in a row. Just by chance, you would think of the same film. a trillion times in a row just by chance, no matter how we think about causation, whether things are determined or random, or some combination of the two there's no place for you. As the conscious subject to stand that isn't down stream of causes that you can't inspect or anticipate, everything is just appearing in consciousness,.
again focus on the experience here you can forget about the metaphysics free will is an enduring problem for philosophy and science. For one reason, people think they experience it. They feel they have it. Do you experience it again? If it's not here is not anywhere are the only constraint you ve been given as to think of a film, and you can pick any one you want and you can take as long as you want. It is likely that every other choice you have made in your life has been more constrained than this one. What job to take her to marry weathered have kids who to vote for most
Choices in life are much more obviously constrained by other variables than this one, so you're not free to simply pick a film right now. I don't know where you're going to find free will anywhere in your life, so really pay attention to the experience. Do it one more time take a film any film okay, so we can use my films here to describe the experience I thought of Chinatown and once upon a time in Hollywood and alien, and let's say I thought, I'm going to go to Chinatown. Right, but that at the last second, I thought no, I'm gonna go of alien. This is the sort of decision that motivates the idea of free will. He go back and forth between two or more options, and then you settle on one without suffering. Any obvious coercion or pressure from the outside world is just you and your thoughts. You appear to be doing
everything. So I pick alien over Chinatown appeared entirely. Free to make that choice, but when I look closely I can see that I'm in no position to know why these films occur to me in the first place, or why, chose Alien over Chinatown. I might have some additional story to tell about my choice. I might now think who everyone says: Chinatown a great film, but is actually will boring, so I picked alien, which is not born, but of course we know from a vast psychological literature that these Two explanations are often pure fiction and when people are manipulated in a lab, they seemed always have a story, but why they did what they did and often bears no relationship to what actually influence them is simply a fact that our judgments about the causes of our own behaviour are often unreliable generally. This comes courtesy of them
left hemisphere of the brain, but even if I am right in this instance about why pick alien over Chinatown. I'm in no position to know why my memory of Chinatown being boring had the effect that it did. Why didn't it have the opposite effect? Why didn't? I think, I'm going to go with a classic, whether it's boring or not. The thing to notice is that you was the conscious witness of your inner life are not making decisions. All you can do is witness decisions once they're me, no matter how many times you go back and forth between two options: no matter how many other thoughts arise to give color to this process the way to one option or the other. The process itself is irreducible mysterious from your point of view,
and whether these mental events are fully determined or in part, random. The experiences the same everything is just happening on its own and I say pick a film and there's this moment for anything has changed for you and then the names of films begin percolating at the margins of consciousness, and you have no control over which appear none really none. Can you feel that you can't pick them for they pick themselves with. Someone else might as well be whispering the names of films in your ear, for all that you did to some of them and the same can be said for the process of choosing among the candidates that do appear, even if you go back and forth between two choices for an hour, any meaning mine emo. You can't know why use
on the one that you finally choose. You pay attention to how your thoughts arise and how decisions actually get made. You'll see that there's no effort. For free will not only no evidence is impossible to make sense of the claim that free will might exist. What could it refer to forget about the physics of things? What, in your experience, could refer to? Everything is simply springing out of the darkness. What will you think or, Inter and or want or ignore, or forget, and then suddenly remember next, our experience of being an acting in the world is totally compatible with the truth of determinism or determine
some plus randomness, and this has implications not only for a sense of self but far ethics. In our view of other people, and this insight can be extraordinarily freeing psychologically, it can lead to much greater compassion both for other people and for ourselves and far from causing us to become past. Of an insight into the illusory NASA Freewill can allow us to behave much more intelligently in life, as we will see. I've been arguing that there's no such thing as free will. So what is there? Well, there's luck, both good and bad and there's what we make of it actually has not quite true what you make up. Your luck has also just more luck. Once again, you didn't choose your parents, you didn't choose the society into which you were born, there's not a cell in your body or brain,
That you, the conscious, subject created, nor is there a single influence, come in from the outside world that you brought into being, and yet everything you thinkin do arises from this ocean of prior causes. So what you do with your luck and the very tools with which you do it, including the level of effort? and discipline you managed to summon in each moment is more in the way of luck, I mean how do you explain your capacity for effort? How do you explain why? your lazy, how do you explain when your lazy, but then you suddenly get inspired and make a great effort? You can't the you that experiences, sudden inspiration or a doubling of effort.
or a failure of nerve the you that rises to the occasion or chokes isn't in the driver's seat in each moment? There's a mystery at your back as producing everything that you can notice your thoughts, intentions, design, fires in ambitions and all the behaviors, and course corrections that follow from them. This is an objective truth about your subjective experience. You can't inspect your causes now most people resist this idea, seemingly at any intellectual cost, and yet this single insight is the antidote to arrogance and hatred and provides a profound basis for compassion both for other people and for oneself is the basis for real forgiveness.
and for other people and for oneself. It is a literally the path to redemption and it's the only view of human nature that cuts through the logic of retribution. This notion of punishment is justified vengeance and it allows us to simply consider what actually works and changing people's behavior for the better, so that we can achieve outcomes in the world that we actually want. But before we get into the ethics we need to Away some more confusion at this point, many people begin to wonder about the importance of choice and decision making. If there's no free will. How do we do anything? And why If anything, why not just wait around to see what happens
There is no free will but choices matter, and this isn't a paradox. Your desires, intentions and decisions arise out of the present state of the universe, which includes your brain and your soul. If such a thing exists along with all of their influences, your mental states are part of a causal framework, so your choices manner, whether or not their products of a brain nor a soul, because they are often the proximate cause of your actions. Imagine that I want to learn to speak Mandarin. How is that going to happen is not going to happen by accident only to attend classes or higher native speaking, Tudor or travel to China, I'll need study and practice, and this will entail a lot of effort, I'll get frustrated and embarrassed by my failures. I'll have to overcome my frustration and embarrassment and keep.
my decision to learn Mandarin and all of the efforts that follow if they persist long enough will be the cause of my speaking Mandarin at some point, the future badly. I'm sure it's not that I was destined to speak Mandarin, regardless of my thoughts and actions. Determinism isn't fatalism, choices, reasoning, discipline! All of these things play obvious in our lives, despite the fact that their determined by prior causes and again adding randomness to this machinery doesn't change anything but the the issues that I showed no signs of making an effort to learn Mandarin. It simply isn't a priority for me and my freedom make it a priority when some ways- yes, but not in the crucial way that the common notion of free
It requires. I can't account for want to speak Mandarin more than I do. I can't decide to make learning this language, my top priority, when it simply isn't my top priority ever suddenly became the most important thing in my life. I wouldn't have created this change and myself. I would be a mere witness to this change, He would come over me like a virus. If I read an article tomorrow, they convinces made it the best use of them. A few years of my life is to become competent in Mandarin, I will not be able to account for why this article had the effect that it did I've already read articles like that, and they haven't move me if the next one does. Where is the freedom in that it would be like being pushed off a cliff and then claiming that I'm freed The fact that I might enjoy the feeling of the wind in my hair doesn't change this situation,
and so it is with any other influence. A conversation with another person, or indeed a conversation with oneself, simply has the effect that it has and not some other affect me. You are free to do an almost infinite number of things today, free in the sense that normal try to stop you from doing these, things were put you in prison. If you do them, but you're not free to want what you don't in fact want or want what you want more Then you want it, you're, not free to notice what you won't notice where do remember, wave, truly forgotten again. Consider your experience in this moment. Are you going to spend the rest of the day and tomorrow and the day after that and onward four days, uncountable struggling to mass Her skill that you don't happen to care about. Are you going to learn Mandarin or the violin or fencing? Are you going to take up rock collecting.
Why aren't you more interested in rocks? There are people? we were all in four rocks. Why Aren't you one of these people? If you suddenly became one of these people and began spending all of your free time? Looking for interesting, six freely doing what you most want to do you now rock collecting to your heart's content? Where is the freedom in that and if your interests suddenly dissipates such that you no longer care about rocks? Where is the freedom in that you are being played by the universe, but choices still manner because causes matter change, matters and a capacity to make change matters? Biological evolution and cultural progress have increased our ability to get what we want out of life, and avoid what we don't want? and who can reason effectively and plan for the future and choose his words carefully
and regulate his negative emotions and play fair with strangers and participate in various cultural institutions is very different from a person who can do none of those things. But these abilities do not lend credence to the traditional notion of free. Will people sometimes ask both is no free will then, why are you trying to convince anyone of anything people just gonna believe wherever they believe you're, very effort to convince them that they don't have free? Will is proof that you think they have it again. This is confusion between determinism and fatalism. Reasoning is possible, not because you're free to think, however, you want, but because you are not free reason, makes slaves of us all to be convinced by an argument is to be subjugated by it is to be forced to
leave it, regardless of your preferences, think about what it's like, not to know something and then to know it to learn something despite your prior ignorance or presuppositions to the contrary, to be placed in the grip of an argument that is valid and true to be led. by step over foreign ground without spawning an error without seeing any place to put a foot or a hand to arrest your progress to then be delivered to the necessary conclusion. Is the antithesis of freedom, you're bad as free as any prisoner who has ever led to the gallows? It's the last a freedom that makes reasoning possible. That's why I know an argument that worked on me should also work on you and, if it shouldn't work on you, it shouldn't have worked on
me either reasoning is all about constraints two plus two equals for, whereas the freedom in that it matters the two plus two equals for and it matters that we each can be made to understand that by being forced to think under the same logical constraints, are you from not to understand the two plus two equals for not a few. Do in fact understand it. Are you free to understand it? If you don't understand it again, no right not until the understanding itself on in your mind. So whether you understand something or not, he isn't under your control, but the difference matters. Absolutely And knowledge on all fronts matters absolutely it's every it is important, as we imagine it to be in fact, probably more important than most people,
and to be the fastest David Deutsche is. Aren't you the knowledge to produce changing the change. If you'd like to continue listening to this conversation, you'll need to subscribe SAM Herriston work once you do, you'll get access to full length episode of the making sense podcast, along with other subscriber only content, including bonus episodes and Amy. Yes and the conversations I've been having on the waking up at the makings has podcast his ad free and released. entirely and listeners important, and you can subscribe now at SAM Harris Network
Transcript generated on 2021-03-13.