« Making Sense with Sam Harris

#246 — Police Training & Police Misconduct

2021-04-16 | 🔗

In this episode of the podcast, Sam Harris speaks with Rener Gracie about police procedure and about the special relevance of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for safely controlling resisting suspects.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nor can I make it has passed. This is SAM Harris. Ok? Well, today is yet another p. I say this time on the topic of police violence And the relevance of Jujitsu training to integrating some of the problems there too. Damn speaking with Henry Gracie and enter if you don't recognize, the name is say thirty nation member of the legendary Gracie family. That is credit with creating brazilian jujitsu in large measure and passing down through now, three generations
where Hanner and his brother here on are some of the best teachers on the planet and they have failed best in recent years on teaching police officers the skills they need to act hand and control suspects. Without significantly injuring them Ryan Jujitsu as you're here. Uniquely good for this and the train has been met, available to police departments all over the country, and had earned here honour at the forefront of this, then. The only people doing it, but they are maidenly effective at what they do as well. This conversation is a troop. Essay and almost infomercial for this kind of training and that's not an action. We are at a moment now in the public perception of policing. That is nothing short of calamitous,
as a record this beginning to the end of the direct Chauvelin trial, is of course not yet clear what the verdict will be there As you hear, hangar nigher, both quite clear in law, In aside the Chauvelin case for the purposes of today, it is certainly not an example of pervasive. Misunderstanding of police procedure I think anyone who saw the killing of George Floyd recognised that term witnessing a shocking instance of police misconduct and adjust what level a jury will soon decide. But, for instance, in recent days, since a record of this conversation with Hanner there's been a case, Dante Right, a motorists to a shot and killed by a police officer in Minnesota- and this have you seen the video it's about as clear as it can be
the police officer Kimberly an potter thought she was drawing her taser when she was fact drawing her firearm and when she shot Dante right, she was horrified to discover that you, Her gun in hand as you hear this relevant, because the police reliance on tailors is not without significant risk. In this case SK, the extremely negative outcome of drawing firearm by accident, but the over picture Here- is that our police officers. A shockingly ill equipped to deal with the challenges they face so, when members of the general public believe their way the scene, the murderous sadism and racism of an oppressive police force. In many key, jesus- that's not at all, was on display overseen or people who are poorly trained,
and very much in over their heads. Once things turn violent. And I really don't think it's an exaggeration to say that the pervasive misunderstanding of what's happening here is tearing our country apart. So in the hopes of doing some small thing to help rectify that, I wanted to have a full discussion with Hanner on this point, just what it eggs for a police officer to arrest someone who is resisting arrest so has earned. I break that down here and we talk about it Training should be available more and more to police officers, and there are few people We are working hard to make that happen, then Hanner and his brother here and there, the chief instructors and Gracie University. Which is a global digital organization at headquarters in Southern California,
they have over a hundred and eighty brick and mortar location, worldwide. Affiliated with them and over three hundred thousand students learning online at crazy university dot com, and they have twenty years of experience, teaching law enforcement professionals, and we talk about some of the recent successes here, which hopefully will be a sign of things to come, and now without further delay, I bring you had a grating I am here with her Gracie Hanner thanks for joining me- sir. How are you men, my pleasure, thanks for having me and yeah how's it going I was telling my my producer Stacy that this is the the marriage of one of the lower energy voices on earth my own and one of the higher energy voices, unearth yours and so, I'm gonna have to snort cocaine over here, where he's an opening to bridge the distance between us
are you gonna, have to slow down the having it will create or The perfect marriage, Edna you're you're, all your listeners in fans of me for a delightful perfectly balanced Camry conversation about the state of law enforcement jujitsu and whatever else you wanna talk about yeah, yes I'll. Let some set this up properly, so first, I'm acts can about self defense end and martial arts and jujitsu in various play. It is on the pike asked before. But you contacted me because Many of us are seen how troubling signs in a police behavior and training and ideas about what should be legal and illegal in terms of how the escalation of force procedure on the side of the cops and theirs some confusion about what is going on in the world with respect to the cops and violence, both warranted and unwarranted, and as a you, you do a lot of train you in your brother here on whose
then my main jujitsu teacher of training with the police, and how we really want to jump into them. And talk about it, I visited incredibly timely conversation, given that we are now recording this during the trial of Derek Chauvelin for the killing of George Floyd, and so there is a lot to say there before we jump into police procedure and violence per se. Let us talk about Fujitsu and grappling generically, and does as to how you come to know somewhat about this about just set up by saying that you your brother or part of the good. The family, which is there, sir A legendary isn't, isn't too strong a word family in the martial arts community, and you can talk briefly about them. The history there, but I just want to say that the coming station we're gonna have here. Is not really adequate to the topic of people. Don't Then go look at some of the video that we might
reference in an EU of you, guys, training cops and you really cheap teaching. Anything on them. Ameer Youtube. The two of your arm to the most gifted teachers have anything. I've ever come across so people really will linked to some some videos. It will be relevant, My website, where we embed this podcast. But you know this where this is an audio document, that right really requires says visual aids in the end, so I just want to say that I said preamble and- and perhaps you can just briefly talk about the history of Georgia to an end, and you come to be talking about this- a priest did it and I would appreciate the opportunity to share out the did there really my family's legacy of Self Defense martial arts with a new audience. So thank you, SAM, for having yawning and for your dedication to this
amazing, martial art for so many years and yeah. It's it's if it's wise of you to kind of give some kind of framework for for the listener to understand. What's going on here, because you as someone who practices the art if it's as and to talk about today is a common sense and logical in terms of the major advances that have been made in there in the recent months and years in law enforcement training as a result of jujitsu. For you, it's absolutely makes sense, because you have all that kind of that frame. That is that that that frame as a practitioner of the art but fur listeners who do not have a history or even much of Jujitsu and maybe the exposure, because it suggests a pop culture phenomenon mix martial arts? Maybe your exposure is literally hearing about a? U have see title fight and a technique or an arm borrow a neck, restrain or chokehold being used. That might be someone's exposure. So understanding that that's the case, I can give a brief breakdown of the family. Three and you know how it got any genuine, what it was intended for and then how, when the time comes, how that translates perfectly into the EU.
Force in law enforcement today, which were absolutely involved in for the last twenty five plus years. So you know Grace you family. My grandfather, Ellie Gracie, was the creator of brazilian jujitsu. They learned from his brother, Carlos who learned from Japanese. In in Brazil? This is an early nineteen hundreds and eventually, when my grandfather started practicing, he had difficulties with the Japanese. He's the rendition of the art and because he was a very small, very frail, very weak young men as a teenager, so because of his physical frailties. He had no choice but to I, the techniques over several years to adapt his physique and those adaptations to the japanese predecessor are what gave birth to. What is not today, as brazilian jujitsu or grey seizure too dependent. We are learning from, and you know that have
in Brazil and early nineteen hundreds and to test the efficacy of these techniques. My grandfather started: engaging in challenge matches fights with other representatives of other martial arts. Think mixed martial arts, but before it was called that these are just you know, no rules, fight between two masters of their crafts really to it from from a scientific perspective to understand what works and what does it that happen in Brazil for decades and my grandfather of unified, all comers and so did his some of his brothers. So these Gracie Channel, matches started in Brazil. In my father brought the art to America. Nineteen. Seventy eight got establishing his garage you're in southern California in her most a beach and continued to he had his garage and also having these challenge matches in the garage where you know would meet a karate master through a student of his in the garage was introduced to equality Master I take wonder master in these challenge matches would happen between two arts. And there was really no rules, it was listen. You do you, I do me when you're knocked out are passed out or tap out. We stop until then we keep fighting and dumb again. These are perfect.
Those really believing in their craft go in there, and invariably, these representatives of these other disciplines would get submitted an neutralised very quickly minutes, sometimes less than men and it was almost unbelievable to them. How effective jitsu was The reason why did you do with so effective if I had To summarize it in a nutshell: why'd you do too is so good is because, where other martial arts rely on speed, strange power and explosive near an end prize attack and violence in that manner. Jujitsu above everything else violates the distance from which traditional fights are fine, rather than standing Torreon tolling swinging to see who Knox either personnel Jujitsu aims to close the distance controlled. The subject take the person, to the ground or surface, where there, Sir no longer have power because they don't have their feet planted and the proper distance to deliver that strike there now in there on flailing dont know what to do, and then the Jujitsu person whose more comfortable in that grappling distance
controls them until they exhaust and invariably the opponent or the untrained adversary. The non jujitsu upon it in that case will make him stake by exposing a lamb or a neck, a joint of some sort, and then in Egypt. Normal use leverage not strange, but leverage full body, mechanics too isolate one of the limbs or neck of the subject and then apply a submission that would render them you know into submission at that point. They have. They have no choice but to tap out or suffer extreme the harm if the pressure were to be applied to his max capacity or capability, which and many a nine times out of a hundred is unnecessary because they Jujitsu trained expert. There knows that they have full control, they get compliance or they get caught. Racial or, in this case, a tap out during a challenge match and fight over and in many cases it's. You know. And you see these days are videos online. If you look at Gracie Challenge matches their on Youtube from the garage days from her random colleges, indulge chosen that's kind of how the way
was one and then my father and his party are Davy Worthy CO creators for the? U have c and that's where the whole thing took another form, because it was basically using the U Fc using television as a platform to make these. Matches seem to the world so that everyone around the world could say well. How is karate gonna do against boxing against sumo against Judo against kickboxing against Jitsu like what's gonna happen, and no one believed it was possible. They made it happened. It was more successful than they imagine and dumb and today you know the path fast forward so owners right. My father, told us interests after the first heading five installments and then at that point it change hands a couple times to the fourteen others, who then got a hold of it and within a white Help made it out. You know a spectator sport on a regular, Television made it a sanctions for, and then it blew up in tat
everyone knows you're just kind of in that lends. But I think the important part for this discussion is that the people at the at the core of Jewish, it's right, the greasy family- and you know, people that we ve tie another instructors who made this their life. No, that, above everything else Jujitsu is the art that gives a smaller, less physically fit powerful less at letting person the ability to defend themselves and can Freud overcome a large of worth living person by way of distance management by way of Allah, Vanka or leverage and by Many of you know energy efficiency and through those processes control someone in a relatively nonviolent manner, neutralised ass, their energy and then ultimately win the fight with a leverage based joint, lock or chokehold, and that's what makes us our special is truly the the level of playing field for smaller, weaker individuals, which is. Why is taken just such a rapid new escalation of popularity here with it, with the assistance of the EU, have see
is now becoming v. Martial arts to learn as an adult or as a child right were historically, you know karate and take wonder where more associated with children right developing confidence and discipline, more historically you'd see that association and as someone got older, they would stop doing tech, wonder karate. What would you do with the opposite you are you're living proof of that in every other person whose just a lifelong fan an practitioner of the art- it's so engaging it's so effective. It's so reliable and ultimately, it allows people to neutralize violence without violence, and that's what I think has you know such pertness. Today's discussion regarding law enforcement, ye I just went up about a couple of points there are one is just for those who are not fans of mixed martial arts and don't we know the the significance of a what happening in the? U S see in none the ultimate fighting championship, which it was, is ninety. Ninety three rise, the first one right, yeah November, yet November, twelve nineteen, eighty three. Yes,
oh you're, your father, Horum, launch that end It's become this major sport, which is great, but we should really all that. It really was in the beginning. And for the law this time remained a virtual science experiment to discover which martial arts was. The best really me Like say, the under conditions of minimal minimal rules minute are now more rules and there were back in the day but virtually no rules, apart from I gouging Amy, But you can. Even if memory serves, you could even strike to the groin in some of those first competition, or at least people did- and it was just it was as close to a street in a ring. Is anyone here, scene and there were no way classes and no time limits. Grand. If I add that was it, was a single elimination, eight or sixteen men turn him
in the same night yeah. So your madam high three times to win in the same night, with no time limit The movie the game of death were brutally has to fight someone on every floor. If you gonna win that thing, you have to just keep, keep it I've seen through opponents, and so uncle, hoist crazy. One to the astonishment of Firstly, everyone who didn't understand what was likely happen here. The dominance that he shot in those initial bouts over people who obviously bigger and stronger, and obviously thought they were going to crush him and the family all by, as you say, closing the distance and essentially strain when people it was miss. Define, and it created a total reset of the thinking Around martial arts and as far as competition and animate since thing
it moved, I mean that the primacy of jitsu is, is less Isabel now, because people from every discipline, They started out as a college, wrestler or a even to say a stand up, striker that you think I'm going to get nix, martial arts. Going to learn a lot of jujitsu at whether whether they call it that are not because it is, it is the necessary foundation, for wrap, linen and certainly submission in in the sport now. So it's we shouldn't have the false, as the Jujitsu is all person needs to know now to succeed in mixed martial arts This is a lot of striking and specialization in that space, but It has unique relevance to the topic at hand which so much a matter of your stand in how to control people Wait when you're talking about tools that are available to police officers to
with a minimal amount of violence, arrest. Somebody who they. Decided to arrest the tools they have are quite limited and no tool. That is better than being a true expert in how to physically control people with out inflicting lasting injury on them and if you dont know Jujitsu, if you dont know, we know in a college grappling more generically. If you're, not an expert grapple her and in their seats many videos that attests to how poorly trained most cops are in this space. You results to the use of other tools that are synonymous with inflicting lasting injury on subjects of the moment. You take out a butt Tom and start crack and someone over the head with it right that It is going to work by a principle.
That is synonymous with neurological injury. We can transition to talking about cops here, but I guess it has two sides to this at a very interesting to me. That's what the cops are trained to do and should be trained to do and how they can play again more or less impeccably, but then there is also the immense amount of fusion people have over the significance of how people. Getting arrested, can behave or misbehave. Why see. Videos of these botched arrests were cops use Are you for one reason or another provoked to using you know inordinate violence. So often, I'm sorry in people resisting arrest in obviously dangerous way is obviously provocative ways, obviously doing things with their hands that in another context. A cop has to expect is an effort to produce a weapon to kill them
and these things are going off the rails, because so many people just do not understand the cops. I view of this encounter say. I think we should talk about both sides to this, but that's just it set. You often run out in the directive and what causes should should and should not be doing her, so we have to start with bye, bye, bye, bye, clarifying some of the misunderstandings around police training, because right what we have today at the core of what we have right now is an incredible level of disappointment right, like an unmatched level of disappointment from the general public on police performance when it comes to use of force riots, fair to say that there is Jason. It's never been such a high degree or by such a large gap between what level of forced the police officer using and what the general public believes the police
officer should be using k, and I want to kind of start with that position that that that's the gap, write them lease disappointment gap, I called the p d gap and that gap is enlargement, has ever been a lot of talk about how we got that point and were where, where we actually started. So what starting with the most shocking information I give people when I talk about this subject, is the fact that the average police officer in California, K and other states some more some less, but on average in California, receives for hours of control, arresting control training every two years now we have to be clear. Arrests and control includes jujitsu type grappling restrained devices, cuffing right. It include use of force policy law, so they after
have the refresher on what the law is regarding use of force in certain you know case studies that they can revert to when they talk about use of force and law enforcement. So in four hours it's not uncommon, and this is not me guessing. This is the actual trainers here at local California. Agencies tell is one hundred and four hours about in common, but only one of those hours at most is physical control tactics that the officer can use when they're taking someone down and controlling them in a in a violent resisting of arrest situation So when you hear that four hours every two years, which means basically what for hours a year, but you split those four hours up in ITALY in our grappling, which gives you an average of thirty minutes, potentially of grappling jujitsu type, training, annual, for an officer. It gives some framework to what we're doing with here. So when I see the state of the country right now and people are like Pierce that capture using too much force indeed the police that a lot of these went on there
more and because I'm going, I dont think the general public knows how little training we're talking about them starting with, and then So then, the question when you see an excessive use of force its for one of two reasons it can either be, up was incredibly well trained and there, by using their power deliberately right for many any number of reasons there flexing their power and their goal, above and beyond- and they just want to show how they can hurt people they gonna. Do it there's another possibility here, though, that the cop is so desires, drizzly under trained the actual end user street cops are so disastrously under trained that when they enter into these violent and credibly intense life threatening alter, patients, even when there is no weapon present from the subject, there's always weapon on the officers hip so every engagement is a life or death. Engagement is a gun on the officers hip that can be taken from them, which does which is not uncommon. So when there in these life and death physical altercations, arrest scenarios and they
and this is your expertise you can correct me here and they experienced the a Mig de LA hijack right where there there their survival response takes over because they're so under tree and that they do not know how to handle the situation and as a result, when we regular hijack happens in a loose prefrontal, cortex control. Now all of their decisions are fireflies freeze or survival mode. Fear based response is better The automatic amiddlemost have much of a choice in the matter. There are no longer them and the level of force that use at that point. It's a complete toss in the air What's going to happen, nobody really knows and that's why we had so many uses force that are so disastrous. So the point I am making is that my experience and every single time SAM go to a g s T Gracie survival tactics. Is our law enforcement week long forty hour, certification course, where these cops learn the Gracie tactics and they become trainers that then go back to their agencies and teach their colleagues the problem
in those courses. We teach them for a whole week and they learn a ridiculous amount of information they become proficient when they test out, of course, when they go home and then the California agency, this chief says: yes, you can train our officers, the column in service officers, the ones that are the street cops do in service class for four hours and out of those four hours this this every two years, one hour of GS tee. So the fact that, where teaching the cops, great techniques that are non violent, it's really insignia can't because when they call him and teach it one hour, every two years, really on average or less there's no recall capability. There's! No regrets development in that amount of time have students that train one hour week, two hours a week and there's still white, but after a year who could finally put this stuff together, so the level of under training cannot be overstated and the fact that we train
structures that a high level, but they go back and get blocked by the state mandated requirements, is worth its entire thing falls flat on his face, so GST as great of a course that has been, and as much as a great review we get from the court, the students that we teach those are the instructors, so they go back and teach these and users and everything falls apart, and I would go so far to say that, based on my knowledge, cuz, I asked him SAM every class. We surveyed them, and I asked how many hours on average annually do your in service officers get at your agency and I'm in the room with a hundred officers from sometimes five thousand two hundred and eighty agencies write two or three cops made of an agency. So I'm teacher massive room full of people of all these instructors and the average answer forty eight hours a year, but that includes all those other things that we're talking about rain. Some other states have more. Some states have less all of them, know that even if it were eight hours him- and it was all eight hours- were g s teeth techniques. It would not be enough not even close, not even close, and my
recommendation for the country is, it has to be at least one hour a week of Jujitsu practice right, preferably Jujitsu Adele, did for law enforcement scenarios because it is different. You know that like when there's a gun involved in his person. Grab your gun. You can go to do to the americana. Armlock is different when someone's be retribution for your gun, but the point is, I would go so far to say- and I've said this publicly already, but based on what information I know about how under train the end users are, which is not public knowledge right, the people typically, don't they think they're train like Navy seals, we're. Why get such a high degree of disappointment, because it we're tree, like maybe seals where they train six months for a week deployment if they train like maybe seals, we wouldn't see this level of poor performance and book bad judgment, but my I guess before to say. I have that police officers in Amerika are the most under trained professionals in the car, There is no profession in America where we ask the professional
to do more with less trade. Being invested in them. Then, when we a police officer which is regular, irregular human being, like you were, I or any other person off the street. Rest, a regular human being to arrest of violently resistant and in many cases, assaultive subject with four hours let us call it of training every year or two you're, not You couldn't create a worse scenario for some one asked to do a harder job here, I simply add I don T, know the exact numbers, but I know that the the story, with respect of firearms training, isn't much rosier from another. The assumption is that cops her very well trained with guns and with all end and have all the scenario training that the tunes there
their intuitions with respect and when to draw gun and wonder fire it and is just amazing how little little effect of firearms train six hundred and sixty four hours. Since it is the state mandated requirement of training by California, Post peace officer, standard of training to be a police officer in California, every citizen in California, six hundred sixty four hours to become a cop just for comparison, its sixteen hundred hours to become a cosmetology is, and fifteen hundred hours to become a barber. So both those require more than doubled training, but it takes to become a police officer in the United States of America. California, state of the United States and every other state has slight deviations from that. But the point is what but your point includes firearms that includes hand to hand combat that includes arrests and control. That includes legal policy and everything else in between. So so, even
macro level what it takes to become a cop. I was talking on the micro, annual and control here hours a year on the macro level. Work were setting these cops up for disasters because you're taking a regular Hume who in many cases, have never been in a fight in their life you're, giving them six hundred sixty four hours of training that include everything under the sun, but not nearly of everything rightly learn a little bit about everything, but their masters of nothing, and then you we're gonna badges, they go enforce the law and they think that, because they have a gun, reporting to listen to them so the moment that What am I going to jail spit on the cop and starts walking away? And now you ask this regular human who played high school graduated high school play. Video every day, all day, four hours a day, gotta Gwen in joint police department and became apple, officer not all of them, but I'm just saying these, as this is possible right, you're, getting a kid who never fittest, I've never been in a fight his life or her and now is being asked to arrest of violent person without any substantial training in this skill right. The grappling indoors you shit,
skill set. That will allow them to do that in a way that a protects themselves right, first and foremost protect the officer but secondarily and very importantly, protects the subject in the process. So because this is the amygdala hijack happens, as you know, when there's an actual or perceived loss of control and enforcement, a high stress law enforcement situation, where someone resist arrest an officer can very quickly go into the pit go into them. Framework of oh my gosh, I can't control them they're, not listening to me. They're get high to a very quickly elevated anxiety and soon there in the amygdala hijack and now it's fight or flight, and now they're going to quickly resort to their paper, pepper spray, taser baton Any of you know: firearm worst case scenario in very rapid succession. What jujitsu dies? Look at you or me SAM, for example, who invested years in a skill set that allows us to be in close quarters with someone control them against their will and do so without hurting them or ourselves. Think about how we would respond in a situation.
Where there is an officer or sorry, a suspect whose behaving you're radically and violently and not cooperating, and we decide we had to take his person down. We have so many options, be more. The situation becomes deadly because we ve invested in skill set and were confident and as a result of that confidence, the perception of loss of control comes much leader. It requires much more violence and chaos, for you were I to perceive the loss of control, then for an officer who does not know how to control a violent subject with their bare hands. That's what we're fighting for were fighting to get more training for officers because when I see these, but these because go viral and crew people are so quickly to judge it as an abusive use of power by the police officer and just because we're it's on topic, the direct Chauvelin case. I am not referring to
right. That's it! That's me that was that, with that wasn't abusive use of power. That was not a us. In my case, I would not classified as oh he's under trained there. Or he over utilise his force? He he had the guy cuff prone. There was not really anything, there are other officers and he kept any on the neck for far too long and the United how that affected, whose blood flow we can discuss later if you want. But the point is I am not speaking about that. I'm talking but the ninety nine percent of other videos were it just gets out a hand crazy and the cop escalate force unreasonably to the public who see it on video. And everyone goes man that cop abuse use their deadly forest, use their taser way too soon. What I'm speculating in what I feel is often the case is you have a good person whose doing the job for the right reasons, but even the best caught the best character, moral character, best values, the best cop on the planet? Ass? You say this
second there in a situation that they are not prepared to handle non violently they're gonna handle it violently. Why are they not only that they have a duty to handle it violently because they had come back to him One detail: you brought into players at one when you are dealing with a cop, there's, always a gun on the table, and this is something that people just simply do not have intuitions about. So when you see some of these videos where some research resisting arrest and they start in pushing a copper, grabbing the cop tries to to restrain someone tries to start cuffing someone they start resisting. This are pushing back listed. It becomes grappling man
or you know, the guy's girlfriend runs up and grabs the cop to stop him from trying to cuff the boyfriend or whatever it is. What ever you put your hands on a cop? This, in the cops mind very, very quickly has to be perceived as a fight for his or her gun that's what will happen if you overpower the cop in the cops universe? That is it lately bright line that cannot be crossed, and yet in the thinking of so many people who just think they shouldn't be arrested, for whatever reason it just seems like fair play and outside the cop pushes may I and push back. I can grab my can punch him. You know cycle AIDS completely inappropriate for a cop appointed dries gonna shoot somebody, but the cop doesn't know what you're going to do. If you come out right. He has
to assume the worst at what you're going to do to him and to the rest of the public. What he's here she's pledged to protect, and so the presence of the copse firearm changes everything and then there's the additional fact that people have terrible into oceans for what is truly threatening from the cops point of view with respect to what a person can be doing with their hands. I mean it's just the moon, When someone says their hands and in the pocket of their hoodie, or they turn around and grab something off the phronsie to their car and are now following directions: the moon, but your hands go out of sight. That is a fact alarm fire from the cops one of you and it has to be because every knows of the case, where a half second later that hand the just disappeared is now holding a gun and its shooting a cop. In the face in all of those videos exist.
Ninety nine percent of people are unable. Two rationally interpret what they see when they see these videos of arrests going haywire. He I really like that SAM, and I think that is a very valid point. Hundred percent and you cannot touch on to one of them. Was the cop has a gun on his hip and the likelihood of that gun being taken from him or her during the danish altercation is so real that Tom the cop can not get knocked out. It has to be in the cops my it has to be impossible, that they allow a knockout so they're really to do anything to prevent that and the other one is letting their subspace hands. You know be out of sight and kind of splitting those two apart regarding the cop having a gun on their hip and the risk that that present in every situation. I agree and that- and I think that people are completely oblivious to those realities because cops understand and have seen all the videos and have done all the research and have you not have had had the training to envy and ultimately been told right that you, if you get knocked out, they could take a gun that can shoot you with
So cop knows that, but the general public doesn't know that's thinking they can. You know Russell and tussle and just kind of grabbing pusher and be aggressive with an officer not knowing that the officer can't play that game because of the risk that await them, because the stories have happened. But what I will say is that the chance of manner if I was a police officer and I'm a man of great, example, because people have to all your black or even as your whole life but luscious any version of me. Let's call the Bluebell had called the white, but with four stripes Henry or order or yours, right as a bluebells, but the chance of someone in a ground fight, taking a gun from you or I is significantly lower, then taking a gun from a cop who has no ground control and no comfort in that in that close quarters situation. So, even though what you're saying is true that the people have to Stan? What I'm saying is: listen. We can only control so much what the world thinks of law enforcement we can all. We can all you, you don't like it like regarding bully right parents going up.
Shouldn't bully Eichelberger Uk Control. What bullies do, but you can control the preparation you give your child so that when they go to school, if their bully proof with, jitsu they can put up a barrier. They can behave in a different way. So what I'm saying is, I agree. That is a huge problem regarding the public's perception of understand- the realities, running law enforcement and the use of force that they have to go to their just there, not professional they don't know right. We can't they don't know right, but what I can say is that an officer is exponentially less likely to have to resort to deadly force when the feeling of threat against the officer is reduced by the increased training that they invest in. So the more train than officer is the less likely that they're gonna be taken from them or that day they be knocked out. A simple example happen in Kansas City, a few years back. We did a greasy breakdown on this. You may lead to it. Offers are Donald Hubbard, Kansas City, police officer, officer, Dotard, Hubbard, Reno
approach the scene where there had been a man who attacked the cab driver and the man attacked. The cab driver was pissed off and was drunk punch them officer. Hubbard shows up tried to take. The man down and in doing so try to control, puts on the ground put any on his back. Like honest, torso and then Officer Hubbard ends up on his back. Now you have Anthony Bruno was the suspects name. Anthony Bruno is on top of Mr Hubbard and was hidden him in the face. Like imagine aside, Control position SAM, like you, know, bottom of sight, control like kneeling. Next to you and then hammer fishing, you in face and scratching you that's kind of what it was a huge kneeling on the ground over the top of officer, hovered punching scratching officer Hubbard on his back had no clue what to do. Draws his firearm fires one round and kills the suspect from the bottom of the fight shooting upward into his torso. The suspect was off duty fire fighter, Anthony Bruno on his wedding night was drunk, had a debate with the cabdriver,
got, killed at the hands of a police officer from the same Kansas City, and therein lies the tragedy. We're when I look at the situation right, because that officer Hub wasn't wrong in his use of force, because his life was in danger, but the danger to his life was a function of the four hours every year to that he receives in ground fighting to where he did not know how to recuperate guard use his legs to manage the distance neutralize. The strikes that were shriek, his face. How do you know how to do any one of those skills right he would not have had life in danger and therefore we could awaited they're waiting for help to arrive just by holding a position of garden punch block series. Stage? One as we learn as a beginner during your first five classes, you would learn that if you were just a whole deposition, he would have retained, firearm, he would not have to use deadly force. But that requires the training
The blame, the officer SAM. I blame the department who ultimately is at the mercy of the state, because the state sets the annual training requirements and chiefs dont like to operate out of bounds. They typically will stay with new states requirement and say for was what the state you know prescribes. That's what we're gonna do for every in service officer every year, so everyone What money is a victim of the of the state and it does not really a federal law enforcement requirement, it really a state by state and then within the state requirements the agencies have the right to do more or less, but generally to try to stick with the state requirements just to be safe. So who is to blame in the fact that officer, hovered The shoot off duty firefighter Anthony Bruno because Officer Hubbard, reached in a Mig Della hijack, I perceive loss of control, will really actual. I guess in his case does he did not know what to do in actual loss of control in a violent, altercation and had to use deadly force because had he got knocked unconscious for all he knows be suspect, could have used the gun against him.
But he did or whether you would I would not have we never know, but they have to presume that that is gonna be the case. So this is what we're dealing with. So he shoots. That's he shoots opposite issues to fire fighter, Bruno and then people could look as they all ban Why did he shoot him? You should have just done X, Y or Z, and my point is you: don't have a choice to use techniques you never learned and that's where the whole system is failing. These officers were putting them in situations to expect much more from them, then what were giving them the skills to do and then the whole countries on fire, because these excessive use of force, and I'm like men. Of course, there are some of these that are not training issues. Their character, their moral issues on behalf of the officers that that that you know are not the best humans right, the same whether there are corrupt and there are criminal Jujitsu teachers, there are bad
people in every segment of society, in every demographic and in every profession, or a terrible doctors? There are terrible police officers. There are terrible. Just there not know it's perfect. No population is perfect, so you gonna get those those those officers who are just should it be police officers. And will leave it at that. But the majority are good people who want to do the job the right way, but if their under equipped, They underperform as a result of that who do blame, and that's where we sit act How do I remember that video? I think I probably saw it first circulated in an email from you, and one of the things that disturb me about that. I recall this wise cases where you have to like hell, you have a video in the first place, you ve got members of the public videotaping this unification between a cop Somebody else and the bias the default by us from the public is that the use of force by the cop
often illegitimate here in many these videos. I remember it in that one in particular by many you're seeing people basically is either take these suspects sigh, of whatever this allocation is in their shouted. The cop you know just leave him alone, but what what's wrong happening in these videos and would soon it was happening in that one were members of the public helping the cop it would. It would have just taken a few other people to help me get in a granted is in ideal world. This wouldn't ever be necessary that the cops would be sufficiently well trained and insufficient number to meet the challenge that their dealing with. But I'm here you have it. Very clear case of this thing is asked leading to a lethal use of force, and it would rendered totally unnecessary. If you just had a few other people grab an arm and a leg and and help the cop you de escalate, the situation will indigent
ray a hundred per cent and listen every single time. We see a video that goes viral. You always get people in the comments will say why Are you filming not helping? So there's? There is an awareness of that, but we have to understand so that people can only help in situations where they perceived themselves to be near, People have helping re like it's easy for you and me to say: hey digs trust me. I walked around the streets like looking for an opportunity help, but it just doesn't happen around me for one reason or another, but I'm here like if I saw something I'm gettin in, because I will I would. I would hate for an incident happened in front of me and to someone to die, because I did not intervene and, as a result of my non intervention, the officer had to escalate a level of force that was probably on necessary. Had I otherwise intervention intervene now to be cleared. There are also videos of people intervening in there always glorious to see and we do breakdowns on them and we highlight them and I've even asked officers sound. I say guys having a troubling arrest situation,
do you want the assistance of the public. I've actually estimates on video and they publicly said yes like honey not in the room, and I just did a big video on a one time. I said yes Do you guys want help if the public is there and you having trouble yes enthusiastically they want that the regular people they would, rather have help and not have to escalate level of forest, but if they have to do it by themselves and their out waiter, you know someone is much more letting them or their exhausted or any variables. That gives the unsuspecting advantage there. Then they have no choice but to use the level of if necessary, to neutralize the threat and the whole point is we still. I agree that people could help. I the people could know not to grab a cop's gun or not to push back on a cop, because that's why I receive so. There are things we can teach the public, but again my smile, the whole proposition in my whole position- and all of this is That may happen over time. But I don't know what the right solution is to get all of the people the world, but I do have access to most law enforcement organizations and departments in the country and if we can simply increase their capability,
Yes, we will lower the level of force across the entire country. We was less viral videos. We will see less rapid, asked listen to forest. We will see less than regular hijacks and ultimately, cops will eventually, with proper amount of training perform at a at a level that the general public expects them to SAM. That's the whole key, all of this, because when expectations are met with reality or when reality meet expectations, and vice versa, nothing is remarkable. Do understand that just the definition of expected it just normal. So, when a coptic someone down ties, my beautifully maintains the mount twist them into a hand, the procedure and then comes up and walked him into the car people. Look at that go that was unremarkable, but what's wild is today's day and age. The remarkable arrests that just happened seamlessly no problem are remarkable. Like like bad man to the rest
yeah, but there still there there so unusual, because the training is so disastrous, so kind of begs the question of like men have come always been this, but why is it such a big deal now right? Why is this becoming too Deal now- and I will say, with confidence and cops- are verified this kind of off the record with me as a guy's. Why is the public and the cop blonde, relationship in America right now, as bad as as ever been worst ever is right now? Why and they it an ultimate conclusion. Is this: the public visibility of police performance and uses force has never been so rather than public accounting opportunity for accountability by the public has never been so high because every isn't it is recorded with seventeen different cameras. Ash can't body. Camp security can phone camp three phone camps, so you have all these people filming incidents so well. Public visibility has gone through the roof police training standards. Sam remain where they were in the nineteen set
this they have been upgraded nationwide. The states have not said okay, now that the visibility is so much higher, we probably got a brush up are arrested, control skills twelve hours a year instead of four hours a year in our state that has happened yet so were literally sitting at the crossroads between archaic trading practices and new age, accountability and visibility opportunities for the public that disparity between those two things is why there is such a disappointment why there such uproar from the public? Now, let me just tell you this change is happening, its gradual, but the fact that that disappointment gap is so large and the public outcry, so substantial right now for better policing and reform we'll call of some sort, some funding, some agree that better training is the way some just want to cancel. These altogether I mean you have the full spectrum right, but where I sit, here's my thing right because
everyone at the core for everyone is they don't want bad cops? They don't want to give a gun in a badge SAM to someone who's gonna views that power. That's the general right people mine, a good cop, bright and people online call, even people who are anti police and want to define, will call the police if they're getting robbed right. So people want a good officer with good intentions to come. The job and protect and serve and a high. You know reverence for human life, like that's what they want right, they could. Challenges. How do you know? How do you differentiate between good cops and bad cops and I have a formula that I'd like to propose, as
one way that we can arrive towards a better decision on that one key variable than I think, every civilian and every police department even would like to identify and here's my proposition for that. In order to tell the european good cops and bad cops, we have to give all cops sufficient training. For the challenges they face, and then you see which cops adhere to that training and which cause deliberately deviate an abuse, their power. That's it because SAM. If I were to arrest grandma, let's just say, Hennerberg to arrest, grandma had a gun at a badge, torrents, police officer, Henry Gracie worded, and I'm not a cot for the record, I'm just I bought the sizing if I were to go rest grandma and since I took her down further traffic by she and I pulled it out. I trip or draw on the ground. You don't topper and I start blasting her with punches in the school,
you saw a video and you knew my record. You knew my training and you knew all the backstory of why I took her down. Everything was perfectly clear and you assess that you would say men, Henderson, freakin, bad police officer, because for everything that I know about this case, everything about him, that was not. Necessary framework who's that level of forest, and it's not like he doesn't have the training to accomplish. This directive of neutralizing the threat and taking her into custody, with lower level of force, so you would be accurate in your assessment but I was abusing my power. This is the same reason why a black built in a Marshall ART when they use their martial arts in a street fight, let's say, and they have to you know this whole idea: you're a lethal been right, like you have, because you have lethal training and martial arts- U r r R judged in a different realm, the use of force as a civilian, then someone who had no training right, so I could be my. My blackmail is almost a liability when it comes to use of force because a judge in order.
Jury might say. No better because of your training, you didn't need to use that much force in a street fight over. You know RO rage incident, you beat the guy up and you broke both of his arms basin, training. We have reason to believe that you should not have used that level of force. It was unnecessary level. Aforethought you applied in this. The fact that you read he has all the same reason that that's an accurate assessment, because I have the training I'm held to a higher standard, and my deviation from that training is a reflection of my character. More than my ability to handle or not handle that situation so brats, my proposition is the whole country needs to be done up in terms of a reasonable amount of training. So they when deviations happen, we have nothing to blame. Other than the character of the officer, because their training in their muscle memory did given the quality and the sky if necessary, to perform and neutralize the situation with a lower level of force than what was captured. The video yeah and I fully agree with SAM
there's no argument for the status quo, may I guess it s, some one must be made they resource argument that they don't have the money the time they can spend the reason as is required to recruit the right people into the ranks of the police force. I gotta think at this. Morale is somewhere near an all time. Low in police forces across the country is given what has happened to public perception since the killing of George Floyd to be very difficult time to recruit good people to the force never been harder, never been harder salmon. I had my best friends are cops like I have in every state from all these courses that we ve tie in all these relationships we made and I've never heard The eagerness Torres retirement that I'm here right now this ahead on- and this is not worth it anymore now you may be aware What happened in a New York recently right, so the New York they pass this bill, this kind of, like unofficially the diaphragm bill, where fully
officers are and it was signed into law by Mayor De Palacio, and this was the end of last year and I fought as hard as I could with all my social media everything I could to try to resist it. But who am I right? So it happened. But basically it says here that now four sit Neil or stand on the subjects towards never use a chokehold. Sorry, never use a chokehold neck hold or had lock on the subway of an arrest, never sit Neil or stand on this obvious torso, including the back chess or the adamant, so they ve criminalize this and now what they have said is that if you do one of these things in New York City right in New York, if you do one of these things, even if it was unintentional, and no harm was caused to the suspect in its use? You may be subject to criminal prosecution, personal criminal liability for the officer.
So this is probably one of the worst thing that ever happened in line four now in this bill, just to be clear, there were things that were proposed that got past that we're good things, more accountability, better reporting, you know different things. You know certain uses excellency so there, kind of logistical things, but when it comes to use of force and I'll even go so far, say: hey the removal of neck restraints, chokehold or vascular neck restraints, more accurately described in law enforcement that you know There's been a lot of debate about taking those out New York has gotten rid of several other states are doing the same thing, I'm even ok with that SAM, because a police officer I know how to use the neck restraint and they only get trained for hours every two years, they're, probably gonna, used incorrectly. So even though you and I both know that their very safe and very effective as a method of controlling someone and in lieu of deadly force, so in a situation where you might otherwise have to use your weapon. There have been many lives saved when the officer instead opted for a vascular, neck, restrained that neutralize the threat- and we say a firearm malfunction. They use a vascular, neck restraint and the life was saved because
of a neck restraint. So there are many more of those cases than the alternative when the suspect ends up dying as a result of a misuse of a neck restraint against a suspect. So but point is if you're gonna get rid of neck restraints and or less just put them at lethal force or your get rid of them altogether. Fine, but SAM they're doing in New York. They ve criminalize the Mount position side, Mount side, control back Mount these are not criminalized for the officers. So this happened last year we discuss I'm the law the after that date. Instructors, the main guys in Nypd who run the defensive tactics, contacted me privately, obviously I'm going to show any names, but they said Henry. We fought as hard as we could to keep them out and the side mount and they sent me the internal videos showing what they're no longer allowed to do, and the number of retirement requests right in New York City last year. I think, broke all records like for sure it broke all the trends, but it was astronomic,
and I'm getting damned in twitter to message an email from all over Europe. People say Hunter. We lost We use a lost cause, they ve disincentive eyes us from now controlling suspects, violet criminals. We cannot put the knee on their torso. We cannot our hips. You cannot sit in the most gentle, effective ground control positions and here's what I said and as this is our public, I said New York watchword happen by criminalizing been least violet ground fraud positions that have been used for thousands of years and martial arts of all grappling kinds by criminalizing the least violent control methods. You are now encouraging an incentive icing, the use of more violent control tactics, taser baton, firearm, punches closed Blunt object strikes, so these things are not in their videos that have happened since this vision. This bill has been written into law. Videos have come out SAM of arrest relations, and I did a breakdown recently. We have seen it of physics.
Active member. Now you have four cops trying to control one person by their limbs, because they're not allowed to put any contact on the torso and controlling summoned by the lives? Imagine trying to get a little kid who don't want to go to bed and trying to drag by their armour leg and their twisting, and turning now they're violently twisting and turning you can't just grab their torso pick him up and walk into the bedroom and put them asleep. You understand, so it's as a result, in this particular video that I'm talking about the cop start, punching the guy excessively in the video, goes viral because of the excessive punches, but the general public sees that and they don't realize the reason in all those countries where necessary was because the set the officers were legally prevented from using more gentle mount controls. We wouldn't have acquired five officers if they knew basic Mount so anyways New York is pretty much a lost cause in terms of arrests and control tactics and the police department agree with it. So this is all this is City Council
she's, like you, know, representatives right of the city who have never been in a fight, wear a suit or not cops, don't know what it's like to hold. Someone down here is going to be arrested for making these laws and then made applause. You wrote in the law and I guess there has been a down her slow from there and I rest in peace, New York City, you Know- and sadly, sadly, the civilians think this is good for them. It's not. I was my father, an officer with that, isn't it is a disaster I make it could not be worse. It could not be worse. It was an accident. Messed up and now because New York City is a lost cause, I'm setting my sites on being very vocal about how disastrous and how counterproductive this this Louis New bill has become an warning. Other states that, if they engage in the same type of reform, were you just strip officers from these nonviolent control tactics, as it is really egg a gross over reaction to their of
into neck restraints, really you kind of it all started with neck restraints. My own neck restraint in the little things happen in theirs. Videos go viral, miss ok, let's start, do anything even touch their torso, because the diet they can't breathe, is easily when you're lying on their hips, and as a result of that, you know all downhill from there and its only gonna get worse. It's only getting worse before it gets better and in New York, is gonna get way worse and that events they're gonna have to undo certain elements of this new law in order for the police to be to do their jobs again, but I'm just hoping that more states will follow suit because you could quickly have a situation where its way worse than we currently see. So this is literally and this my hope, it's him. Is that writing a bill into law? That says you cannot use them out and many other things, but just keep it basically that part of it. You cannot sit on someone's abdomen and about writing that bill into law is done by a group of people who mistakenly believe SAM. The cops were sufficiently train in empty hand, control
tactics to begin with. That's the whole point. If you believed that every one of these cops in New York was train, like maybe seals, and even with that sufficient amount of training that excessive amount of training they performed is poorly as they do. It's understandable that you say: let's take away all their ground control skills because clearly their abusing them If you start from the premise that cops get four hours in your city probably way worse every year or two, then the start position ass. We wait a minute, let's give them better training before that we take away their least violet options. Here. Perhaps we should have something to make this a little clearer to people who, probably no more informed than many people who pass this law about the details here. But MRS imagined someone's violently attacking you write somebody. Who is at least as strong as you are, and you are Job now is to stop them from
overwhelming you or getting away and hurting member the public's. You have to figure out how to bring this person under control. This is the situation. What were pudding cops in and they have various tools. They have gone on, their belts have good. I've got a baton I've, gotta taser, and then it got whenever a hand to hand skills they have or have been given. They ve got them to their own, strengthen athleticism such as it might be, and some of these tools are by definition, synonymous with death or significant injury right the way you bring someone under control by hitting them in the head repeatedly is as soon as I said, before, or synonymous with neurological injury right if you punish them in the ass, a knock them out. That is
fall down and they hit there had on the concrete, exactly like the years here in an environment of in a ring that is designed for the safety of the contestants here Europe gear on street. Yet and if you take them, they re their often if, if the taser works, imitators are by no means foolproof, but when it works, person is also falling to the contrary. And not under their own control and v. Likely hitting their head right to visit. All of this is extremely risky in terms of content. The continuum of force and food riskier than any of these things that have been outlawed. In fact, everything that there was just outlawed in New York is practised in every single jujitsu school on earth. Every single day, add nausea I made- and I am sure that if you, sir- let nobody dies here that in the interim, this practice under controlled setting
You actually know what you're doing so. I also want to ask you enter ISA that the most evocative of these maneuvers is you know what we call the rear, naked choke or the order, the neck restraint, and so this is when a person grab someone you reaches around their their throat with their arm from behind and the elbow The crookedly elbow is now aligned with it. With these subjects, Chin and they are squeezing its call. As you say, this is what are erroneously call to choke, it's actually a vascular blood, restrained your your cutting off a certain nation to the carotid arteries and after about six seconds or so the per and lose consciousness how dangerous has that prove to be over the course of any gave given way You know, and I mean you- you now have tons of experience teaching there's you have how many are known, how many schools affiliated with it with your school who teach this? There are a thousand. Upon thousands of martial arts
training in this, and they all experience that both sides of this choke I'm sure someone somewhere has died because someone somewhere has died from first Everything. But what is your perception of the risk and even the variables that govern risk? And with this move? Listen. You know that you said every single day, millions and millions of vascular neck restraints are applied at the you know, the hundreds of thousands of schools around the world, the teacher to light
is this is this? Is this? Is the safety from a statistical point? You know you can I mean I don't know point zero, zero, zero, zero, zero percent, I dont know doesn't mean that hasn't happened of reported death in practice right by someone who knows what they're doing, who has any degree of training with this right. This is normally we hear of death when its use egregiously by someone who doesn't know when to let go or they squeezing neck restraint. Someone passes out, and then you maintain pressure on an unconscious persons, body or MAC. You maintain additional vascular pressure for in many cases, what needs to be about thirty two sixty seconds after loss of consciousness is reached, so the amount of pressure and the duration of time that is necessary for someone to to die from the use of a vast your neck restraint is, is substantial. Now, of course, when you consider drugs, alcohol use other medical conditions. Those can play a part, but by and large the did, the technique has been deemed safe right in and all these.
That have taken place and just anecdotally throughout the country and indeed throughout the world in regular practice of martial arts. These are use all the time, so you know, but I think that pointing back to the New York situation, SAM and you are kind of alluding to the violence of taser, a baton right these blunt force and that's gonna, just for the listeners out there. What you have to understand is that all the techniques that we're outlawed are, you know monumentally safer. Then what is being encouraged now near for these officers, because they can't do- and you started with the example that you were kind of painting- of a violent criminal, just committed a crime once to flee the scene or wants to assault an officer. Now you have. The officer has the burden of not just neutralizing, that person and and and taken into custody for their own protection and for the protection of the public. The officer has the burden of doing that without applying any body to body contact on their torso, yes back or abdomen, this this is unheard of. There is no way it literally rules out.
If you have you, have someone who's violently resisting. If you mean in all the scenarios we are able to take them down to the to the ground. And control them. So they, and be arrested when you You add to that picture, the criterion that you have to do this without hurting them. You have base equally rule that out in virtually every hey the moment. You you make those specific moves, illegal as our is no way to do it without hurting. There is no way to do it without without exactly and that's it, that's the whole. That's that can't be that the entire, but the confusion here is that they did something SAM, hoping to lower the level of force, the opposite reviews on suspects, not realising that now, because the impossible equation you painted for this officer of having to subdue someone without you in their body to do it. They can only their heads, but a violent criminal cannot be held down by someone's two heads you can
not lay on their bought, and I'm telling you this as a black bill lifelong practitioner, if you SAM, did not want to be taken custody and someone said Henry take salmon put handcuffs on him right now, but their condition was I'm not about to lay on your body SAM. I could not pot, but I could not put any pressure on your short torso chest back or adamant, literally it my boy He could not lay in your body. If that were the requirement, I do not feel capable of subduing you and I'm a master and I must say you like sand the bluebell, I'm talkin about sound the regular civilian irregular person a man or woman who does not when we take into custody. I would not be able do that by myself. I would need for five other object to hold one on each limb and then a third person punching you in the face, We ve only created a fifth person. Put you in the face we literally created in impossible equation, we're a single officer is no longer capable, even if that officer SAM is well trained,
they had a blackboard jujitsu, a single officer to take a single suspect into custody, who is determined not to go very very unlikely to pan out in a way that is both suitable, acceptable to the general public, acceptable to the police force and acceptable to the civilian in that they hopeful dont have to die while they're getting arrested but you're forcing the cop to escalate their level of force unnecessarily because you took away their lowest and most effective control options. It's unbelievable, SAM, it's literally the worst thing. I've ever seen from police training and tactics change across law enforcement across the whole country is the most negative backward step that has ever been taken. Now again, the rest, the bill had some good things. It's the diaphragm contact aspect that literally throws away all judo techniques, all wrestling controls all digital standards, those that have been used for thousands of years and effectively and safely to controlling, forget the neck restraints. I'm talking about just lay on someone
Have you kids resting in the back yard or, like you don't say, like we do every single day here in practice. So it's frustrating sat and, like I said it's such a lost cause, and it's so sad for those officers who are now basically that literally there it was already hard enough traded, arresting some four hours a year of Jujitsu training was already hard enough now say: hey Are you gonna get that minimum for hours, but you're not touch their torso with any part of your body? are you gonna, be criminalize your basically saying either? be ready to use lethal force to stop the subway from fleeing the scene right because, at the end of the day, you have to arrest the person or simply don't arrest them they actually with this? This may be of interest only to martial arts nerds, but perhaps we can see something about why the often touted pain, compliance, kind of risk, locks or not or so hard
to use in when you have a violently resisting opponent, why cages teach a bunch arrests, locks and get past all of this shirt? Yet any any pain complains technique requires a healthy neurological processing to take place right. So the second that someone is your drugged, intoxicated or high on adrenaline in any way shape or form where their pain, tolerance right as we know, goes through the roof, then arrests, lock simply doesn't have the desired effect and often, instead of pain, compliance you get with called pain defiance which is a threshold. Because imagine if I was like a mind, if I grab one of your fingers salmon started bending it backwards and I got to a point where I was uncomfortable and your logical brain says: yeah he's going to keep going. I better listen to him! Imagine if, instead of stopping at that point, I just tripled my level of force on your finger. Do you think that your prom Nothing would be ok, I really better. Listen now, or would you suddenly be tricked your brain will essentially be flicked into
survival, Amygdala hijack a nude literally, do any thing on the earth to free ourselves from that about to be broken live. You got to lose a finger or broken joint and the same is true for your elbow or a shoulder? You can go pink compliance bothered healthily assessing the encounter but the second, the person's drugged, Morocco or their pain. Tolerance simply goes through the roof. Because of any one of these, side variables, you simply cannot do it. So my point is: what officers need to do? Is they need to control body to body control for the first one hundred said
it is what we teach a hundred, not not me on the neck, not neck restraint. That would be crazy right. I'm talking about basic side, Mount Basic Mount Control, basic background, one hundred seconds to literally slow everything down near and to teach the member. You have see one when hoist fought Arch Emerson SAM when he mounted an arch Emerson and art scares me we're trying to buck twist and put him off. An art could not escape voices mouth and, as a result of several seconds going by we're art could not keep his mouth. This is one of his opponents and you have see one art just tapped out here. What happened there? There is no submission. There is no knock out. Why did our tap out because he couldn't get off his back in four use, trying ass hard ass, he could and he was ineffective in escaping from us. A superior suppliant back amount position, voices laid on him, and at that point I was able to process that, since
he could not get out with all his might that there was only gonna be downhill from their own. I wasn't gonna go well. It wasn't go well so that right there, SAM is the number one recommended by law enforcement, arrests and control strategy. Yet this aspect on their back not underbelly on their back and hold them there for a hundred seconds with body to body control was that put, they suspect, a chest, a process that there I'm gonna get out at will, there is a whole processing happens in their mine and they go well Can I get out? I can't get a hold of their guns if they have good, unbroken weapon retention. I'm not getting his officer off. Other officers are coming at this point. They can kind of going to the process of maybe I should comply and just get this over with, but that require as long as there's hope of escape. There's gonna be savagery from this aspect and what I'm saying is to kill the hope you have to use the hundred second rule and maintain that top position on a sou pints aspect until help gets there or until their spirit is sufficiently broken, that they will comply.
With a pang complaints, technique or simply verbal commands, which often work once the Spirit is broken and they realise that there really not gonna get away. It's a whole different human. What you're dealing with so to answer your question? It's not as easy as it looks, and and if you can't control body to body supine for a hundred seconds, if that's not legal, there is no guarantee that you're going to get this person into custody off wrist, twist fingers joint shoulders elbows summer to let their arm break and then free themselves from the situation, because hi on some drug. It really is. You know that you have to experience it to understand born when you have someone who's, who has much, better training than you have and grappling again today that the mystifying thing is that they don't even have to be, bigger than you. They could be smaller than you, but if it is simply a very significant mismatch, Wayne how you know how to wrestle based on your patient emissions and that the person holding you down it is there is something supernatural.
About enemy. It is. It is like your we're. In this case the cop is function with a different physics. We attempt to get up is completely hopeless. And only sufficient training can create kind of disparity, and that is the thing you need to ensure People get arrested in a way that doesn't require a continual escalation of force so. This woman painting a very unhappy picture here had her, but I know there are bright spots here, tell me so someplace where this is why can better than those New York, so I've been advocated. Eyebrows he mentioned earlier, I've been advocating for quite some time now that my proscribed solution to this use of force kind of pandemic in America is one hour of Jujitsu every week for every officer in America both die. Logistically. How do we do that? Where is the money come from where they do,
all secondary concerns, I'm just telling you what it needs to be because I know what one hour a week of Jujitsu will create an irregular civilian. I see it all the time, and I know that the bare minimum, someone needs to be sufficiently trained to get a violent altercation and be able to just stay afloat and handle their bid this and not have your Mozilla hijacked take over right like that to me that the key and, of course that presumes after several months or you know six, so a year of one hour week, some it'll be a place where, if they get into a fight, they're gonna be able to at least stay focused, stay calm, manage the distance, manage the damage control the subject at the very least until help arrives, which in many cases all they need to do right is an officer. So that being said, I ve been telling his loud enough for long enough that one of our agencies that we ve been working with since two thousand and nine Marietta Police Department in Marietta Georgia. One of you agencies was a GNP certified, so they they ve had their instructor certified in our week. Long certification, but like every other agency, we work with they get cut off
they go home and go to teach. It they're only allowed the teacher for hours a year right so Marietta George. Has been gnp for about eleven years and two years ago, give almost exactly April first, two years ago. What happened was I urge that a video went viral Marietta that showcased the officers who, get are getting their bare minimum annual training of GNP and a few others tactics these officers aggressively striking a subject on the floor in a restaurant. The video goes viral right for the wrong reasons, and at that point, Marietta, Kip Command staff ultimately say: hey, listen, we're getting! We get upset if he's officers for performing so poorly, but we're not giving them any better off So it's on us to give them better options and four hours a year clearly isn't cutting it look at the performance and look at this viral video, so that was kind of the be the tipping point there for them. So what happened? Marietta do something unconventional onyx
did unheard of and revolutionary all the same time. They did a test and, and the say his name, major Jake King was kind of the the conductor. The man who pulled this hoping together right, did the conductor of the orchestra here in terms of the Marietta transformation, and he deserves a lot of credit for taking this risk because he believed in Jujitsu here was here was the test, were they were say: ok, let's, let's get rookies because I've heard that they ve heard this proposition of Jujitsu regular weekly practice. We send us do what the rookies rookies in their police academy, the new hires. We can pretty much do whatever we want, and they have to do it because that can like the guinea pigs rights of Islamist do these rookies and let's get them to do. Jujitsu me, and a tory Jujitsu at a local, carefully vetted civilian own Jujitsu School, where they go regular classes of jujitsu with civilians in the classes, but
from their uniforms and its mandate that they go. I think it was twice a week was the mendacious many, the period for the five months, whether in the police academy, so they did, they did it and five months later these he's came out of the police Academy, training weekly they got, they have their academy all day. They go trains to night, they have their uniforms. Regular due to students and not supply rising to anyone who does Jujitsu but proceed we need to the shock of everyone else. These officers came the academy. These new rookies brand new cops came out of the academy. And the number one word they use. This is reported to me by major king who had interviewed extensively about what happened in Marietta in terms of GDP. The data there Mary so major his head of the number one word on their exit service was confidence. These officers left the academy with a greater degree of confidence than ever had been before in the history of Marietta Police Department. They go into the field SAM and they start applying their techniques.
Taking people down in their arresting people, and I have of theirs actually a video you guys can linked to its actually greasy university dot com, slash reform, has all of the Marietta data I'm going to share with you now and the video showing the used by these officers, their digital skills as rookies, so these guys can the academy and Girls- and they have these use of force incidents and SAM they're taking people down their mounting on them, they're putting them on the back their verbally saying, hey, you're, gonna be ok, I got you re here. Let's just you know we're gonna take care, you there's no cost. There's no violence, there's no violent punching in the head. All the things we ve gotten you seeing as a country don't exist with these officers who wear through the Jujitsu Programme in Marietta. Listen, it was so successful this programme. For these rookies that they decided to open it up to in service officer sam- and this is where everything change the agency has one hundred and forty five officers of the hundred four thousand five hundred and ninety five of the officers opted into the free Jiu Jitsu program
sponsored and paid for by the agency at the civilian own, skin, Who were there allowed to go train weekly for free to them paper by the? the as official regular Jujitsu students and this went down. Ninety five officers opted in fifty officers did not so we have a control group against which we can build, compare the perform. Of the Bee J J trained officers and the non be J J officers in the agency and the data is in its been eighteen months since The programme has been initiated for the for the department of permitting this happy use, and we have numbers, and these numbers are. Right, these are published by Marietta Police Department and, like I said there on our website at the url, I I gave you can link to it. It's unbelievable salt. Let me just run through some of the key points here. You can ask questions. We can dig a little bit on what the implications are for the rest of the country, because this is the most promising data in the history of law enforcement, arresting control tactics, so training injuries,
it is, of course, the number one concern for a lot of these police departments are well how injured would cops get if they're doing just all the time what if they get injured, while their training in twenty six hundred classes in the two month period by ninety five officers. One injury in the Dodo assent, no injury, a nose, cracked gonna take on attempt that was it, and this member be clear. These ninety five search. Some of them are young rookies. Many of them are old and shape and have never seen the inside of the german their lives. You know for the night how many years and are now starting to do for the first time. So we're talking about a lot population here of operators, of all types of demographics and all types of shapes and sizes, taser deployments reduced by twenty three percent in the population that does you jitsu. So seventy seven percent in the non be J J Group, fifty four percent taser deployments in the use of in the Abbey J J Train Group, eighty five percent of which to stop a foot pursuit so that they are using the tailors right. In all cases, they are using the teachers in the fight
they can't handle with their usual in someone's running away and are chasing them and they have to stop the person from fleeing the scene. The use of force injuries, two officers, so this is actually in the field now. Injuries two officers in the eighteen months prior to the institute this programme there were twenty nine injuries, two officers in the field. Eighteen months prior in the eighteen months after the programme, there were fifty. Injuries to officers in the field. That's a forty percent reduction but department wide of officer injury. Now. Here's the Kicker SAM zero of the report, injuries, were in the b J J trained population Xerox or fifteen the injuries in the four in the fifty people they had. Now. Don't you jitsu that have not started this programme of weak. We practice since this makes them since in the world, because a fight, very scary and dangerous thing to someone who does not do this regularly, but to someone who does
just a weekly, let your eye getting into a fight we might bump our elbow or Bruce Arnie, but this does not turn into a serious six months off duty workers, com claim, because I said Please, taking someone down a hole in the notice what I do every day in practice and here's what wild? That's exactly what has been said by these rookies one. Took assess bananas, actually mental patient. They showed me the videos on its on our website. There they take on a mental patient, perfect body full, take down mount mt patio on the back. Tell him he's to be ok when they got up the sergeant said: hey, you know to the rookie eight that was the one that best take downs. I've ever seen and the rookies is oh, no. That was nothing. I've done that a hundred times so when these office We are doing this on regular everyday practice. It just makes sense that this is what they do. There's no problem! Now, here's what the department loved the department wide forty eight percent reduction overall, in injuries two officers resulted in sixty six.
Thousand dollars, seven hundred and fifty two dollars saved on worker workmen's com claims that never happen so the agents see saved money in that fight. Thirty thousand dollars more than they spent on the training for these office. In that eighteen month period, so the net right the nets Savings for the agency is over forty thousand dollars because of the workers claims that never happen when cops, simply don't get hurt in their use of force in the field. So then, I asked major king. I sit me your king, there's one more number that I have to hear. What about injuries to suspects? That's what the world wants to know. Ok, the cops are safer, but what about them for the third time you know taking down and controlling these positions soon yes we when we talk about serious injury suspects classified as hospitalization. If someone did not need to be clear to the hospital, then they didn't get classified, but hospitalization was well documented and when a useful involved, an officer that true
and be J J. The suspect was fifty three percent less likely to sustain serious injury that required hospitalization Sant more and twice ass, likely to get hospitalized. If you get arrested by someone who does not do weekly Jujitsu did here is the most important number. For me, this is the one. If we You reduce the hospitalization by half or really the serious injuries by half country wide for every so in Amerika what kind of service do we have fifty percent progress, so this is therefore the numbers that I've been dreaming of SAM for twenty five years, this is it, and I can. Ever. Do it, because I'm not an officer in charge of a department where I could mandate this type of training. I've been advocating for over twenty plus years right, but I could not and data. So major king, having Someone has been around Jujitsu believes in Jujitsu. Right is on team Jujitsu a bit the bullet and said
We just gotta. Do this: let's see what happens if these rookies it happened, it was so successful they rolled out in service. It was so successful insight. This we publish this data on our website. And now major king has been cut. Acted by dozens of police departments every single week from all over the world, because people are seeing the day that we published and they're asking for. Assistance to set up similar programmes and to be clear, the programme that were advocating for now is a partnership between a private. Civilian owned Jujitsu carefully. Buried civilian own jujitsu, school and a local police department with any number of officers who can send those officers for this supplementary training, weekly training at the agency, and then the question is who pays for it in Marietta their use, currently asset forfeiture funds right which are federally controlled, but the agency put in a great request or of era. A request to the federal government, say: hey we have this acid, these forfeited assets here. Can we use this?
for training and or you know, equipment, and the answer is yes, you can use a forfeited assets for training or equipment. Ok, one use it for supplementary judicial training programme, and they permit So this is happening at many departments around the country and now to Georgia specifically has approached major king, who said orchestrated all of this and they basically are now talking about state grants. Funding for departments that want to institute similar programmes with Georgia Senate is now discussing state grey Funding for agencies who want to institute a supplementary just a programme literally SAM. This is the best that has ever happened to police training ever is that there are now contemplating these private partnerships with local judges to schools right to make sure these officers get the training that they need writ, because the agency could never provide this logistically. The only reason why there's a chance at this comes a nation wide success is because its profitable for the age,
seat near their saving over forty thousand dollars and eighteen months on this one small hundred, fifty officer agency alone. Imagine them, larger agencies, how much looking to save on workmen's com claims from having their officers better trained. We all These new this- we always hypothesize this, but now we have the actual the numbers and the new simply don't lie well New York. If you're listening, you ve got some of the best you just his schools in the country. I guess it's too late to walk back, the brink already over the brink. But you can you can climb back up the cliff There's there anything else we haven't cover, they think needs to get it people's heads here. I just I'm so excited yet I'm glad, just such a good job kind of setting up the current state of why police force is such a difficulty here in a minute and then and then going into this very promising Marietta case study and watch. While these systems we published data, we ve had, I think, to date, we ve already had over fifty department, SAM Cod
like us now looking for hate, we want to start this partnership and we just sign to contracts Roswell police, too, Ireland has been finalized this week we just sign peach tree city, Georgia. You know begin with where this actual contract between the agency grace you, firstly headquarters and the certified Gracie Jujitsu Training Centre in the region to They now send their officers, and you know these option. Go train whenever they want, and this I guess I paid for by the agency the officers love it and the buying actually peach tree city. I was talking to Lieutenant Chris there and he said hundred we sent out the email announcing our partnership with the certified judges to training centre there, and I didn't expect to bind to be a solid as it was yes is the enthusiastic. Yes, is it's almost like their dying of thirst, SAM these offices? they all know their under trained. They all know- there being put in life and death situations every day on a on up. Budget. A lot of them can afford. You know two hundred dollars a month, jujitsu classes, but
where we worked it out with the agencies. Is the agencies only ten dollars per officer per class and therein ways at the end of the month? So they only paper after that show up, and that model always going to save more in it in reduced workman's comp claims and they are going to pay for the training. So it will always be a net profit equation for the opera Jesse and listen, we're not trying to get rich off of these partnership with the community. I'm just trying to be funny the solution that training available at a cost. That is that it is acceptable for the city, ultimately who's paying. For it and the department- but the challenge we're having right now, as we have more inquiries in locations. Then we have schools to meet the demand. That means a crazy time like so for me, like it's so remarkable that this is even being contemplated, that these government departments sent institutions of self government and poison and police officers
be allowed to partner with civilian own. Martial arts goes like this never happened. You never had a police department partner with a tech wonder school right, they never happened before. So I just speak to age due to their effectiveness and really remarkable effectiveness in combat, but be a new wave in police training which has never before you ve, been contemplated before Marietta, took the risk and made it happened, so I'm just so I did we now have. The data in the world can now see that what we ve always believed was true that a cop is less risk. The police office and we didn't we speak about the reduction in Lhasa right, because we will have less interesting reckoner you have duckshooting, excessive force allegations and subsequent lawsuits. Those savings have not factored into right and then, of course, some community relations, the community nations nightmare of having a video go viral where Marietta example use their excessive force in the restaurant on their video that I spoke about those videos stop happening when cops are well trained, uncle viral anymore and then a department concern
to rebuild its relationship with the community, because their at an all time low right Now- and I think ultimately, that's all the least want and that's all the community once is the community? to believe in law enforcement and law in force. It wants to perform for the community at a standard that meet their expectations, is there. I am a path for jujitsu schools. There, you have no direct affiliation with the Grassy academy to get certified in this specific police appropriate training, America's, obviously that either there are schools at or have slightly different, training philosophy. Is there more geared towards sport than self defence and yet Many of them could very quickly and adopt the and the most effective training here and ask. I was happy I'm glad you pointed out when these, when these agencies are contacting us from territories where we We have a great university certified training centre. What
Do they say hey? We want a partner with you Grace University, there's no school. Here we are going out and communicating with the digital schools in the community there and say: hey who wants to go to the process to become the certified training centre, then we could then pour there with the agency for a potentially lifelong relationship right. These are not short term. These are one successful. I expect these these partnerships with the agencies be decade, Longs, if not indefinite right, there's no end term choosing Marietta! That's we're gonna? Stop the numbness pull that probe because we how much there saving the company. You know how the lower level to force the injuries officers gone down substantially. So all the data points to the we're, never gonna end this right and it's not cost efficient for them to do this. The agency, so outsourcing it just makes perfect sense. But the point is so weak go to territories and fine schools like you're, proposing to say, hey, you wanna go to the process and the answer is yes: Gracie University certified training centres, it's not filiation program, like you think of it
in in traditional martial arts, where you know where your master- and you know you have to have our banner on your store on your storefront. That's not what certified training centre is one you undergo the certification process to teach the courses that would make you a suitable partner for us, law enforcement agency. You still can be a field. Data with any other organisation, or any other master instructor becoming us If I training centre, it just means that we can recommend you, because the operating system for the programmes that these officers would be exposed to are vetted. And and monitored and quality control by Grace University headquarters. So the answer is yes: a school can keep their affiliation and still become a certified Gracie jitsu training centre that would beat make to a a suitable partner and for any Jujitsu instructors or people out there who are actually learning more about that you can go to Gracie, insured, to dot com and that's the thing is that you know we're having workers
We just kept me the demand right now with how many agencies are coming on board and digital. Its assisted with you equally, exciting time. More jujitsu for law enforcement for the crazy. Family has been kind of fighting for this for thirty years in America, like literally right now at the beginning of a new era in law enforcement training and it's all centred around Jitsu. So it was already hot because of the. U S see right because it is growing, and it's really effective to know that the Reckon american policing is going is torch. Weekly jujitsu for The officer in America, if you ve, been hesitant, even if you're so Who's been questioning the effectiveness of Jujitsu know that The time is now to learn it just as if as a practitioner, but if you're someone who really does Jujitsu who's on the fence. The thing that I want to become an instructor potentially is the right time to do into the industry? I mean, of course, boring covered. Restrictions were now at the right time to get into Jujitsu, because the opportunity to put now with the government institution had never existed, and now it does, and
You can learn more about every step that it takes on that process at greasy instructor dot com agenda and which really cool is that we also create the opportunity for someone to reserve a territory for up to twelve months while they you go the training they need in order become a certified training centre, they can make sure that their territory remains reserved and that gives them the search that rather moving towards this objective of certification to meet these quality standards they. They won't have the territory taken from them, because we only allow one certified Gracie training Centre per five mile radius in the country, so if a territory guest it can by someone else, you're pretty much box out. So the one thing I would say is that you know check out that territory, reservation programme and all the other details regard certification, and you don't have to be a black belt. Someone can be a bluebell, follow our systems and be able to teach other beginners right relatively speaking. The art and and create an amazing learning opportunities, so we bluebells
the boss, brambles black belt, someone who is just getting illegitimate, fell in love with it and wants to teach you to make their passion their profession. Now is the time to join teams Jujitsu and we ve created a perfect path with that territory reservation opportunity, and this is what we do, we open schools and we serve as a community and now we're partners, These are what these police department, so it's never been so exciting and all things to Marietta, but it had to get this bad. For this change to happen. Sam, because I'll tell you what law enforcement in America it's a very. Slow moving institution right now, whole idea of law enforcement. They don't want to change anything, so you know in that sense, now the negativity all the things that have gone wrong in terms of justice, the public outcry. They did. The excessive use of force is such that it happened, but I'm telling you that the country is changing. Law enforcement is changing as a result of that outcry. It asked again. We really you know, as you point out, we are at the bottom
the valley here, and they were literally having this conversation during the Derek Chauvelin trial and dumb. I don't know if you feel the same. Prevention that I do around me. The outcome here, but its ease to see that if some significant This isn't meted out to him that the nation could erupt over it both for understandable reasons and for reasons that are that are perhaps in part based on the car, of misunderstandings of police conduct and police training that term Now all the facts aren't in yet and- and I certainly one one Anything exculpatory about Jovan himself at this point, but it some yeah. Maybe you could be quite dramatic if, based on some policy led, as yet unexpressed a trial. We learn that he's not actually going to serve any significant time. Perpetual close on this
some real world instance. Here we have we view the prospects of a resolution. That case- listen I've been asked, and I did have a small in Rio DE regarding, and they asked me in India, in the room that I am an expert right, which is martial arts and is a lot of experience with neck restraints and the question was posed to be. Quite simply, is it possible that the knee on the neck right since it's kind of a central topic of discussion is there in the in this thing? Is it possible that the me on the neck? caused his death right that there are many other variables. But you know to what extent was that possible and my professional opinion Judy You found it again, not the medical examiner. I don't know how much you know how much drugs he had in his body his system, but purely speaking from they Jujitsu vast your neck restraint perspective. It is absolutely possible that place in a knee on the neck for an extended period
time that was placed by Mr Sherwin. There could cause someone to could could cut enough obstruction to the blood flow to cause customer to lose consciousness, and then the the continued pressure after consciousness was unconsciousness was met, could absolutely like any neck. Restraint that is best bet is held after someone lose consciousness, could lead to someone's death, so I do believe it could have played a part. I dont know what other factors where play. I don't have all the details, but whether or not you know, he's he's convicted of that or the exotic for some reason that we don't get. No you know is yet to be determined My belief is that absolutely no knowing what I know and peoples they all because on the back of the neck, it wasn't a neck. Russian it wasn't plugging the carotid nope you can plug the carotid indirectly by placing any on the back of his neck and the front part of their neck being so fleshly comprise. Into the ground into the pavement, which was the case there than that compression happens. You know, indirectly,
Even so- and I am very aware of many techniques, even in Jujitsu, where there's a very indirect application of pressure that is still very effective at creating the neck restraint and the loss of conscience or the submission in that case or loss of consciousness is if submission is, and it is an achieved or someone is in TAT out, so I absolutely believed that it was possible. So we'll see what happened. I agree that there may be a hitherto. If he's not. Convicted that there will be an eruption that may even exceed what we saw previously and honour so well ass. His hair. Thank you for doing what you're doing here an aspiration, and I won t the things I what for two getting to the full reboot civilization after covered is the ability to even without the concern so soon the sight of them everyone getting vaccinated. I appreciate manner definite looking forward to date, and I appreciate you, you know- should allow
You have your platform to be used to shed some light and, if nothing else in oh, oh, I hope it. We accomplish today is that the general public can look at this NGO while they are police officers are asked to do more with less than we, ever imagined right if the Euro public simply knows how under trained police officers, are their release. Second guess themselves: before judging and excessive use of force and oh, that it wasn't a function of an abusive use of power as much as it was a function of simply under preparation for a very high, intense and dangerous situation of these crops are being thrown into every single day, and I think that law enforcement officers for all they do. I think they deserve that they deserve the consideration that look there at least not being given the tools and then you know, that's that's the bit bare minimum at that. At the best case scenario, let's keep children along until every police officer is on issues such as this a regular practitioner of the arts. It doesn't make sense if what you do is dual violent fiscal, Turkey.
Every day. You should be an expert in violent physical altercations stands to reason. I won't tell me say I consider this a p s, and we will link to the videos that you recommend, though there was one video of a botched arrest Mcdonald's, if I recall, with a thirty days or in the area, is at hand in every want to see how they, the kind of training cops, do not have assets greatness in signing will linked to that end. Thanks again her my pleasure, thank you SAM, everyone
Transcript generated on 2021-04-17.