It's Billy, guys! Tonight we go deeper into the unsolved, brutal murder of Karina Holmer with Billy Jensen. Do I need to write more here? Nope. Just come on in and listen.Instagram: billyjensenTwitter: @billyjensenCheck out Jensen and Holes Murder Squad and The First Degree everywhere you stream podcasts!Also, check out Billy's book. It's an amazingly fascinating read.Chase Darkness With MeThanks to our sponsors!Best FiendsBest Fiends has thousands of levels already, with new levels, events, and characters added every month. It’s hours of fun right at your fingertips—and you can even play offline! With over 100 million downloads and tons of five-star reviews, Best Fiends is a must-play! Download Best Fiends FREE on the Apple App Store or Google Play. That’s FRIENDS without the R – Best Fiends!CauseboxThe best part is that of course I got my listeners an exclusive discount- go to www.causebox.com/morbid and use the code morbid to get your first box for 30% off- as in you can get your first box worth over $250+ for lessthan $39.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Open healing, close to home or university health care, a complete, a dynamic health system from Prime every care to more than seventy five specialities from revolutionizing neurological care to advancing cancer care at MIT Anderson, cancer Cetera Cooper. With patients from all fifty states and thirty five countries people trust Cooper as their first choice. Cooper, committed, compassionate, complete. Hey. We're knows I'm Elaine, I mash at our Billy and this
is more bed national addition, everybody it's a special edition. Morbid. We told you we're gonna, have a special gas, less episode and you ve all guest wrong. It is not John, my husband: if everyone thought it was gonna, be John, the pod gas today, but no, you might know this guest from his book chase darkness with me, his podcast with Paul holes, the murder squad or his second podcast. The first degree welcome agents in to the pods. Welcome. Thank you so much for having me, I'm extremely excited to be in the in the or bid
laundry room, slash yeah I've got the guacamole laundry room, the lack of a better honor you just gotta get liver other guys, so Secondly, what we want to do today is last episode. We talked about the unseen the murder of Corina homer. We want until a great detail, told the whole case again. Listen to that episode. You should probably go listen to it or you going to be like what the hell you all talking about. So we want to. We want to kind of chat about the theories, the different suspects in the case, and we figured that Billy might be a good person to have on this for this because one he hates, and solved case, vacated hate it so much better Also, when I was doing research this one article kept popping up and was an article from the Boston Phoenix from like two thousand sex. I want to say
cybersex here. Yes, you see, I got it, I got it. and it was comparing and contrasting Corina homers murder with the black Dalia Matter, and it was written by a guy named Billy Jensen. So yeah we figured you mine. but it yeah. I know the reason why I did that. Obviously, this a lotta parallels to those- and I had always been intrigue by corinne- is murder- had actually happened in between my times in Boston. You know I was in Boston for college from ninety two. Ninety four and then I had come back to be editor, the Phoenix and two thousand five, so
happening between. I wanted to do something on it and then the black dahlia movie was coming up right upon movie. So I kind of his time time those two together and that's where it that's. What happened in its in it makes sense it such a natural, like we immediately thought of it when we were doing there at the soldier, like oh black, Dalia and you think of all these connections that it has to have, but there's so many differences to yes, yes now and we can definitely we can talk about that Well because they were, you know. I mean Dalia having come from the Boston area, to an dab, go and going to some place to kind of fulfil her dreams and same thing with Corina in a Corina winning you know, fifteen hundred or is it a lottery to scratch lottery ticket and being like? I wanna go to America and get out of Sweden
then coming here and it's not quite what she thought it was going to be, you know, being a nanny and then you know coming to just such an an awful, awful and absolutely and its end. It is it's crazy that Elizabeth Short left Massachusetts for allay and Corina left Sweden foremast. She sets its just like a weird yeah, another weird little connection to it. Now, there's like a tunnel little weird yeah, but then it's completely different in so many ways like for one how she was found. Corina was founded and dumb stern, stuffed into trash bags like thrown away. Hopefully no one ever finds air and missing her bottom half and then there's Dalia, whose displayed in, like all her glory for everyone to find yeah, now it was definitely the there- was a reason why Corina where she was in, and that was because that way,
and why she was probably bisected, which was to get rid of evidence the she. What sheet the killer wanted her to go away, wanted it. Yeah turned to be gone so but so that even you know, but there was a similarity to because she wasn't wearing her, make up Debbie? What did he wash her beforehand that I'm gonna say because you know it's probably wasn't he the black Dalit Black Dalia, did have some females aspects in a lonely along the way, but you know yet you know in that dumpster in such, and you know a location that is, if you, if you ve ever, walked to where she was dumped in the fence where I actually used to live. I live right across the day of the fence from where she was found. You know it's it's right along the highway, its Asia I met. Walking that area where she was from, and I remember this this you know ironic sign that said: police notice, no dumping. It was almost like hunting and then the smell? I remember the smell of lot laundry because
he bore run. I am you know how in an apartment, building simpler if their, if their drying in use, you smell the driver, and I remembered ass this being overwhelmed by that smell which not the worst around the world for an alley. Yeah it's at this is where she was left. Meanwhile, black dahlia was left in light of park arab open location posed in a way that his
you now brought up so many different similarities to man Ray and all that and just working there. There was in no way a grotesque artistry. That's it that's the prevailing theory which are today island and everything where this with some sort of grotesque, homicidal art as opposed to Corina, which was very much utilitarian. I did this crime and then I wanted to go away and that's the killer is trying to do and that in that's kind in testing to that, like the art part of black dahlia, because people have brought up one of korean as employers sees a nectar, is an artist, a painter and a lot of people point to her art, as looking like its inspired by Corina or her murder,
There's like a lot of dark stuff in her art that everybody there. A lot of people point to. It seems like its inspired by Corina the women in her art. But having heard it's, I guess hurts pages down now you can't see any of it. The pages and down the pit. There's one a painting on the pay yeah sort of like and it's like an angel type of thing, but but yeah the pit, but all the Two things are are gone and I you could find him a little bit over over the year, the internet, but yeah, it's You know the whole idea of artistry that around there in the art that was around at the time and then you ve got you know the suspects like like John, the sort of industrial, the empire tat guy. He was my failure, the mix, and I'm hit tugged at issues like and then get you know a guy and a dog. Both worry, Superman's shirts. It out. There is aid.
Whenever you, when you get a case like this, where you have a lot of different clues and their even our isn't even that many clues incorrectness case as much as there is in the end, the diet case, it seems like I just because it has probably been studied as much, but you now just the idea that you know Corina This was a big night for Corina. Piana people don't realize it, but you know the summer. Solstice is a big deal in Sweden, because the winter stall solstice in Sweden is blackness in your ear. It's dark so long, but in summer it's it's your you're gonna, be if the sun's at its highest pointed its eighteen hours of sunlight or something like that, so they go out and they celebrate it and so well nobody problem. her friends were sort of just like ok, fine. This is like now I'm going out and dash. You definitely didn't joy going out a lot into into Boston. She had a crash pad because her her
her employer had a studio that yeah. That was that she would have had to walk through the combat zone which today still call the combat zone to other in Boston. I they d I gotta, go now, but to which he would have had to walk through the combat zone to get there and a lot of people think we could have something happened during that point and the combat zone the fairly rough place. At that point, you know now it's been, you know much like a lot of different places. It's been gentrified, but you know, I think that you know this was at this. Was you know she like this was a big night for her. That might have been one of the reasons why she she did go drink to access as you want shoes. You re hard, yeah. It's like today before Thanksgiving in other way, without giving more Americans. That's all that's our sole submarine well says: yeah, that's kinda, which is considered that's, consider the biggest party day of the year put for club owners. Is that you now, especially because
the body is out everybody's home everybody's. Like you, don't go, over the edge, and she and her friends you know when she she's found. You know in the patent in the bathroom passed out, Then she leaves she is she, down to the alley when she got tries to go back in and then the the bouncer doesn't let her back in, because she's inebriate into inebriated. Bouncers are are taught to do that, especially back then bouncers now are told us Chile with women. You know the good. answers are told like get that person help you Don't even want them to go into an goober, because that's the things it used to be you to a cab, and that's ok far. You now so led by professional, but now you put
a woman who is drunk into a newborn. Who knows what's going to happen in ourselves? It you know it's that there is a real responsibility for bouncers now to not only protect the club and be like. I don't want this, this person who is drunk in my club because they might trip and fall and then we are responsible responsibility for the person that a year got drunk to begin with because he probably over served or even if she did may be pre game beforehand, but you know get her home safe and dumb. There are. There are policies at some bars now that are in place, but back and nineteen ninety seven, eighty sex, it's a just worthy. Wasn't there.
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Great pay and sign on bonuses can lead to a greater life, for you go to Amazon dot com, slash, apply Amazon is an equal opportunity employer. I wish somebody had gone in and found at least one of her friends, because obviously this might not have gone down the way that ended yeah, It's you know. It reminds me of you, don't so many cases that are like this. I actually went to the Boston our attending school in ninety ninety one. So I know that I know what they were teaching bartenders neighbour to our tenders about over pouring, but it was reporting to protect the bar to protect you too, because they were bartenders that we know if it was we're about. If that person got into a car and then hit somebody, then you could be responsible for it, but it was less about. Italy was less about that person's. Well, being
in terms of the inner that person is being safe. It was in out, but it's got a lot more, compassionate that you know at this point. We are definitely does not not so much about like liability. For you but you- and I know you mentioned the crash pad- that she had- that belonged to Frank RAP, and it was, I believe, his like part time, photography studio, that it was like a little loft apartment, yeah down and South Boston, and yet he was letting her stay there on the weakens just at which I want to know. If you found that leg as strange as I did, because I know it is definitely a picture is up a little bit yet when you start when you think about that, when you think about ok, this is somebody that has makes sense. He's an artist he's got a loft in the city. They got a nice house in the in the suburbs. Kind of cool in our
local crash, but hey if you're going there and you drink too much you whatever like want you to see my crash pad shore, you kid read one of two ways but the whole idea of the nanny you know in the swedish Natty and the AU pair our interest that has become a a stereo type in a truly open. You know in in fiction and nonfiction in everything so You know the idea that, like this guy, this guy is going to be potentially taking advantage of this. This woman that came from Sweden and he's maybe using this as well as of as old as alone. Nasty or something. How does he never not about living yeah exactly, but none of that urban proven or anything was ever yet. There was any any kind of relationship between her and the ends and her employer of that nature. Yeah exactly in that's. What's a frustrating is this is like all speculator like. We can just sit there and tried to put things together.
but there's just like so little from this kid, there's so much, but so little at the same time goes around this kind of like putting little ends together in being like that, sounds good. Let's try to fit this over here like there was, I know I read a bunch in a few places that some other up hairs that had worked for the family said that Frank definitely had like kind of a creepy vibe with them and their only we weren't really into it. And then you couple that, with the hey take my photography studio, downtown on the way, ends, prettier pair and its wealth of their lives and the look good yeah and you want to know how hard the police investigated exact ito end. Did they go stir. You know this is nineteen. Ninety six text messages warrant a thing, yeah, you know even email for the most part it would be, they would be phone calls
Or an especially when even the need to be phone calls, because that woman is living under the roof of that man. So we'd, be hey. Let's meet at this point, there is no kind of paper trail that you would see now lot easier to catch like the other guy, the AU pair now because there's gonna be text messages and gives people don't yeah, but I like surveillance to this kind of yet another, and that's another with this case you're having walk the crime scene of where she was at so she she was at this place called Zanzibar. It was. It was along. This area called the alley where there was a bunch of bars kind of what I mean kind of like a precursor to the way that in a lansdown was at a certain point and I was into precursor actually because when I was when I was in Boston. Lansdown was like the place to go and I go to the dancing Remsen everything's yeah above before out all corporate
forgot corporate man. Now is literally just anybody that corporate me when I was dancing to be now the wrong at the Venus mile before it was cool. Now, you're calling exactly there's a bar. There was that there was a bar on by Arrowsmith when I was there that amazing there. So we still pretty corporate, but it wasn't a house blues, at least so you know she was that's where she was and there I ve been that back. Then there should have been more videotape but now there would certainly be a lot of video tape videotaping having walked it even even eight years after is nine years after whenever I walked it you know you see you look around, you see all of these cameras and things, and I was actually I was walking it even before I started doing so. when some of the murders on my own with using using cameras- and I wasn't
Didn't even have the eye of like where some of them really would have been an ass. She walked, One of the things I did learn that article is that there was a spy the story girl was going on for a long time that, she was seen on mass have, which is which is really close. probably a block away from where she was found that night. Surveillance, video and the cop that was in charge of the investigation at the time said: that's not true, he'd, there's no video of that. So not like, and when I say scene I mean like she was seen walking that would have gotten her from the club. Zanzibar that we got her from their alive to area. That's all would be, would have been a really important glucose. That would have meant that anybody in that back pay South Back Bay Area or the The fence area would have rarely been responsible because it would have been in between then and in just a few hours from when she was dumped, but that wasn't the case so
now you're taking that out of it- and I was like the one revelation that I found when I was doing my reporting that had been put out there before so you know she very easily could have been picked up at that location stumbling, and this is a thing that has been happening for ever and you know that the idea trolling for a woman who is drunk as they walk out of a bar alone. It's not new and end the we are talking about how like the ash, you were talking about how you don't you did, like the bouncer for not letting around. We were talking about that. It remain Dana Harringtons Harrington's case when she was at the Metallica concert. Remember that and then he yeah she like goes out side during the opening act, they won't let her back in and she has to just like hitch arrived.
yet what issues she is drunk because right, pre gaming, she's walking across the bridge who walks passed at who drives pastor a cab and in that cab, is Jesse, Matthew and then she's dead Jesse what he did for his next his next known victim, is exact. If you watch that footage exactly what he did is that he would troll around the bars of Charlottesville, which is a which is a college town looking around for women who were also veto stumbling around drunk and if you see the video of Hannah Gram, while you know who is it, who was his next known victim
Yet there is voted everywhere and you see her stumbling she's just walking around stumbling. Shall we know she's like texting her friend, she doesn't quite know where she is, and then you see a guy walking past her what turn around and walked towards her and he's following her, and I think this is what happened with with Corina is that I think the geometric is very very similar. Is that this guy has an m o and he's looking for these victims like this and he's followed heat use, and you see it and it's so evil the way and so chilling is that he sees her walk past and then you see him turn and then you just see and their collecting video from
like a location of the coffee shop and than this, and this in their all disjointed, but you're, putting him together and you're, seeing this guy walking up to her and then putting his arm around her and then they go to a bar and its dislike. And everybody in seeing this saying this guy is not supposed to be with her, and this doesn't seem right and she doesn't want to get in the car. But it's a slight, but it happens and there's somebody people that saw that. That's why it so important now, especially in those moments a It is never leave a friend, but sometimes, like friends, go to the bathroom in undergone height. But if you do, see somebody in that situation. You just say stop and then I'm gonna. Do you know? Let's, let's get you, let's get you to a safe place me. You know and die not as a single guy doing it even those Edmund, even if you're a good guy, it's rough united means it's better. If, given the f,
female. In the same way that, like when you're a little kid, they say, don't go to a single guy when you're a little kid you lost in a store yeah, somebody that that is going to go to a female and say you know, I lost my lost my mom, its veto. If Four for the person is going up to a person who inebriated a woman whose inebriated this they are. They are prey and there are men that go around and search for them all the time serial killers that do it, and this is what Jesse Matthew did. I have a feeling. This is what happened: with green homer, and you know there was just. If somebody was walking around like we're just waiting and saw a that's, that's one, that's the it's that that's the person who's been separated from the herd and she's injured, she'd she's, not in her right mind and I'm gonna be,
to either get her to come with me and then, once I got her into a certain location, I'm gonna be able to do what I want to do with her. That's it that's exactly right, and I think that makes me think of the guy that was with his dog I just almost failing. He was that I would not like looking for somebody to leave the bar and that's how you found tat her boy I was at her Britain. I think it was her bonnet, and yet this is a guy that had appeared ease. He or any was forty, eight years old. He or a Superman shirt. His dog wore a super venture so that was his staring out. That's MP, cocking I get it growing into interacting approach. I guess that's why it starts. yeah and I'm not necessarily saying that he he might have done something, but he definitely the attic
I was that was his stick. I mean why hang around what you know at bars? You're not gonna, go to the bar with a dog. Now this is this. Is there the light nineties that wasn't a thing. You know you something's gonna die clubs or dogs now now yeah. So I think that that's the very well might have been a bad thing. The guy was, it was that's what he was doing, terms of track, kill somebody bite. We might have been one of those guys like you know. I'm gonna pick up a woman whose who inebriated. She might find it found that it that I have a dog with me. You know I didn't live in the area. The now you lived in Like Andover, which is like what like over thirty minutes, north of Boston like vignette softly it it's a drive. I think he had told peep. He had told I'd seen and a few sources that he had mentioned before that this was kind of his stick that like he would bring his dog in. He would wait for other girls to come out of the bars and he eighty would like strike up a conversation cause. He was wearing the same short as it has done
and it's like, but it's three a M in Europe. I think thirty minutes away other language that yeah, I think another thing without tee was like he was. If he did do something like this, it was smart to have the dog, because I felt for a lot of people like a dog signifies like oh I'm, sayin, umpire, yeah, acute on comfort, yeah, yeah and I think that's what this yet this is. This was his way of getting women me as an awful as its as he a killer. That's that's all another matter now said that and the reason why the police said that they do Regarded him or eliminate him is that he got a speeding ticket So we know that he was on his way back to Andover Guy that an alibi we talked about that yesterday. What are your thoughts on that You know it's. And we can say that takes the guy kill himself yet exactly right.
Oh, he be an easy process. Ok, why would he killed himself? You know, and should it be sure that looked into more aware. Would he of of done this your valet, the blatant thing. That's the big either. Is we don't know if this guy has a speaking of dogs high Luna, there's led like say so: high no I love it a joint, a dog? Were you, I would have a door that doesn't necessarily shut in my office, invariably if you will come and each time they like, I heard you may be mentioned food, but the idea that if we're looking at at her Britain, then we know he's that do
We know that this was his elbow. He liked to do this. I would like to find women who were who are drunk, who are coming out of out of bars and then he was. He would attempt to you now seduce them right? We? What I would want to know is- and this is how I do they investigation- find people that he had done that with before get all of his friends find out where we he take those women Is the easy really dropping about to end over at three p m, seems weird easy. to get a hotel room? Ok, that be one thing now: You know there are no hotel rooms that this is obviously if you're gonna bisect a person is gonna, be it a lot of blood, whereas we don't know how fastidious he could have been. But you know, it's a possibility that you could have killed. He could have killed her in a hotel room used, the I'm the bathroom. You know bisected her and then
and then took her out because you're not looking for that yeah. There would be blood in the drain and everything that, but if you ve always looking for that and that's fat scouts, Certainly a possibility, I would want to know that I'd want to know what his Emma was with these other women, when he would try to pick up that other women, because, if he'd, if he didn't what he did? Otherwise, you now and the idea is to, if you tat this was the first kill or if this was somebody who had done this before. right now, why was inviting you to come in for your dinner favorites after four p m and earn two times the rewards on your purchase, build your perfect burger in fries get a fresh, big possible poor grab your favorite Hobbes salads in more. at your next reward twice as fast just by shopping, your dinner favorites after four p m
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and I think the bisexual is definitely not definitely because, but I would say if I was put money on it, the bisection was weak was to get rid of the evidence. The dna evidence those where those legs were found. I'm not quite sure, where they where they would have been left, this always apposite quality that that they could be found at some point you now and the end. It could lead us to somebody else. If, if it was you now, they could be buried someplace, in in a burial ground of another serial killer, that we find the gangway in a family definitely need a ride around this time. I was working on a case of called peaches and Hempstead Lakes Day Park in New York, where a woman who was bisected was found in just the top have ever was found in Hempstead Lakes, stay Parker near him say: let's say part,
long island and the reason why she called peaches because she was unidentified, but she had a tattoo of a peach. It was like a peach that was kind of like an apple peach, and I had to drips coming out of it, and I had work that case and that case it turns out, has been connected to the long island serial a case. So there is, you know, and every time around this time, that every time that there was a case of a woman that was found bisected people would think about her in homer. Could this ring related to that? But I am yet this witten guide that that's where I would have gone if I was on the vows boots on the ground at the time, as is like, who else had he done us with? We, did he go, you know if he had if he had if he usually went to one hotel, if he usually took them to a hotel, be the same one or two hotels in our. Where would you take them? Which hotels would he take? Those women go to those hotels, see their their footing,
you know they could have jumped on it right away. I'm not quite sure how what you now and especially because it still it open investigation, they won't tell you like. I was tell me everything off the record about how how much they look into him and whether they really did try to find other women that he did this with yet definite and what I think from what I saw it seemed like this was a very clean cut and it was it was the one Nick on the hit was a dick on the hills it was, it was it was. It was really kleenex up her neck and the Hepburn. Yes, I think they were thinking. It was probably done with, like a circular saw, or some other which to me I'm like, I feel you can get with that in a hotel using a circular, Sonia good yeah and also like seclusion like a shed or something like that yeah. This guy had something. Maybe this guy had a garage in you know evenly inner member when you go in those places in back bay. That pays really
super nice, but then you ve got those alleys in the back that have those garages that you can do whatever you want in them. Rather, you know so There's a lot of little nooks and crannies in Boston. Where things can happen, die. You know it's it's a town where that goes to leap very late, very early we read that time. Member the tea closed, like twelve at our oh yeah, yes, for the EU for everybody that you know, and of being a new Yorker going up to Boston. You just complaint on time and public Transport Council as twelve thirty need that as a Bostonian. You do here, and there will always be a moment at a party like you be at a party and Austin which, which her body is not from Boston, is like the college area where we're all the parties where, at least, if you want to be you, and you would be like it be twelve o clock you be like, aren't always staying at this party or we're going home and take a decision making decisions and, if you're staying at meant, because nobody whatever by a cab because it would be crazy through just like
get a drink so much that we don't care. How called it hasn't we walk home a thousand raising a drunk jack, and I know, and for fur Corina as well. I mean think about that. There is, you know she gets out of that club. I'm sure you know that yes, some of the cabs with line up at this is still Boston. There's not cabs the same, whether they are in New York now public transportation is closed and your butt Boston with this, this this puritanical ethic that they ve had where you can buy beer on Sunday and all that stuff You know, oh no, you know we're not gonna have public transportation past twelve thirty at night. You know it put a lot of people in danger at a public meeting. I would put a lot of people at risk I thank members has taken care of a lot of that and left yeah. It's been something that that I always used to think it's just like the city is letting people just get out? You know whenever the bars clause and then just letting them often you know without any word account just being Ike,
look a lot on the matter with me. I don't say, go forth, for what that's so that you so yeah. It seems like this person definitely needed some kind of cookies inclusion. They needed a place to bring her yunkers, also where the hell is the bottom half of her. they had to, but that is somewhere. I pray. I agree with you that I think it was done to remove evidence probably of a sexual assault, but I there I have also seen you know people connecting the dots and saying could there have been a possible pregnancy or a fear of a pregnancy that there are trends. Move and if you're gonna cut somebody there I mean I haven't seen anything that says this, but you could possibly remove the uterus, which would take away the possibility of and very early pregnancy being than that,
acted right. If I know she wrote a letter to her one of her friends in Sweden, late very close to that saying that something terrible happened would tell her about it when she got home. Obviously she was never allowed to tell her when she got home and a lot of people think this could be that some they may be happened, perhaps with her employer. Perhaps someone else in maybe this was part of that whole thing. Trending make it get gone. Yeah that that is the area where it lends bore credence to the employer or that the boy friend yeah cause. She was seeing this cop this cop in our. So that's how this case gets. The Gets you no more and more intriguing is because of that yet I've I've even thought about. You know and when people have asked me hey, can you do a six partner in our series, for I thought I think this would make a good sex partner just because I think that if you
if you can get enough, so the only problem is that in a lot of people would some its long governance. People are at it won't talker or gone, but are you gotta get a couple of exclusive, but I think that there are so many little little things like that in this, like that, there's something terrible that happening I also think that we had with black Dahlia Elizabeth does it. We had things that she had done. We had people which he had been seeing. She had been seeing so many different people throughout that You are visiting her friends, then San Diego than visiting a man. You know a manager India than having him driver up to the build more hotel, and that was the last place that she was seen right outside the gray. How stationed there are so many different avenues that you can go down as somebody letters that they have, that she had written and with this one. You know, we know that she had told her friend that, like shit and like the job, because as a lotta cleaning and everything, but then there is
also that's that's something terrible thing and who knows what that would be yeah, you don't ominous if it if it was a pregnancy than that would lead towards obviously employer or boyfriend, and then that would be. You know a potential one of the reasons why you would see that sort of bisection like the yet definitely and its, speak gave the boy friend it's like the boyfriend, those a cop is just kind of like, and then she data guy, that was a car, a Boston cop alike, Dougherty about him he's cleared in ITALY ok, Boston, peaty from the nineties, like yeah, he's lassitude good guy too good cause the ultimate Solly. They all know about for him. If you think that you never hear his name, You know about him. Now it's yeah! It's it's it's! It's we!
Third and an alternative to what was going on. I guess that's! The big dig was in town so that every last is really really under the big money is really focus on. Everybody was really focus on the big dig like going to take over the earth and back the idea, but it yeah. This is the kind of case that that people could have really invest the gate at I haven't gone back and seen I've been also. The lot of the church stuff was happening at the same time. I believe not enough. That was before that was before that now the traditional ninety six, those ninety six Turkey was happening like two thousand for five yeah abiden. Yet what was you know? hitting the Boston police to the wall. Listen. I I when I got to when I got to Boston from Long Island. I had done so many kind of our long island stories, including the peaches story, now really excited to work with the boss and police department. They were just sell bad and I was what I was looking at their I was looking at their Clarence Records, and then I was looking not only their clearance records but also their their wrongful conviction records, and I said this is the worst homicide
Latin America. This is about, and I put that on the cover of the Boston flitted over the Boston Feel. This is the way homicide Squad America, and we did a story that, as so and then the police tv within six six months out of the game out deal with it, but I like TAT, but it was they were just really bad. I'm not I've really looked at their numbers to see if anything has gotten better, but it was just it's one thing. If you have Clarence rate, but then you just making tons of arrests. try to try to get the wrong person. They were getting we're getting the wrong people and having them then go sour, and getting pinned to the wall with that than in our so and what they were doing back and ninety six, ninety seven, and You know the blue all silence, whether this dear, but I don't even know the cops name now you'll find it anywhere. In writing it. I can't fight yeah. I mean this is a case that that deserves something that is
It deserves a lot deeper dive to find out that cops name to see if he autonomy assay of any of her friends from Boston while talking, I ve heard from her friends from Sweden, but neither friends from boston- and you know it's it's over. It's a lot more differ because social media wasn't around back, then this a lot more difficult to find those people, but it's not impossible, and I think I think she deserves it, because obviously no one deserves to meet an end like that and she was just somebody just goin out. You know to have fun that night and yeah and interest than just. Just justice just awful yeah cause. I I remember I was I think I was like eleven and I still remember it like vividly it happening, and that was when I became like fascinated with it like way. Back, then, being those like wait, somebody got cut in half like excuse me
that happens what and to know now that, like nothing, has happened in this case since then, like no movement, nothing, but people come up. Inachus brushed away, is so frustrated figure physically. Someone out do have seen something that night, like someone had to I mean we have like you, know their eye witnesses. That said, a few of the mentioned, a grey car like there was a grey Mitsubishi cap, mentioning that grey car that they said where she was either talking to men in this car or she got in the car that they wanted to come to like an after party. But nothing really came of that. Like you never heard of them talk to anybody in a grey car or for this great car, it was just kind of like yeah that happened in its like a few few witnesses are saying this, maybe look into it with local yeah. I mean the idea of you, no sir. I doubt you did go to what I am and after party could somebody now, if there's people there about that's always been a alone
or that that men do when their outside of clubs hey we're gonna have to party or they been inside the club in like when the club closes How are we gonna do an after party and then only the women are. The women shows up and it's like, whereas everybody so right, and also right around this time, I too was the Louis Woodwork yes, oh yeah, which happened in Newton and that with the euro, She was an AU pair as well. So the idea of like the AU pair, you visit to very kind of I profile cases for the AU pair and then you're paranoid he's been seen like there were these idea that these, like middle aged man, who had kids were like going through that Norway in Sweden and getting these like teenage women, the com and then they would they re. be in their house lain with them and carry on affairs? Yeah? It's it's it's a neat when I say need not
cool, but I mean like a neat narrative in terms of ninety narrative for this, but you know. I think that if you look at the the If I were to lay out the suspects, I'm not gonna put them in order, but you ve got you ve gotta. Look at that boyfriend. You ve gotta, look at but member this isn't it. I mean there are beepers at the time, but there weren't cellphones. So how would the boy we have known that she was there. Because we know that she was there. So how would that have happened? Then you ve got the husband. don't get. A husband might have known that she was gonna, be there and might have been able to hear. But where was he that night I like more than anybody, I like written because No, he was there, you can some at the senior- and you can also place him, because this is what he did. He liked to pick up women who were drunk after bars- and something might have got amiss with this one.
She said no, something went crazy, but something when he went crazy. and then killed her and then tried to block the evidence or something like that, he's the best one and then, after that it somebody that got her another person. That's like him that got her. While she was, you know stumbling around outside. then that I like or because they these daily pushed him aside so quickly with that alibi like he got a speeding thicket, he was gone home to worry about him and it's like, but there's a lot of evidence. The medical examiner said she could have been alive till you're very very shortly before she was found who? So, if that's the case, it's like. Ok did you searches car when you stopped him for speeding ticket? Was she in the trunk in Cuba? stated cushy very Well- could have been in the trunk and pass the outlook we said yesterday. She she easily could have been the trunk and passed out. or drugged.
Now: if you would have left her in the trunk passed out, I think you might have you know you might want to drugs are highly relevant criteria, but not enough. They found drugs into a system or not. But I think, you're exactly right, you're saying that, as you know, this guy got a speeding ticket. This isn't it its move on. You know. I've been a lot of time to adjust. tens on hook, who has the case this should be a high profile case? They should be why you ve got a bunch. People on and everybody's in Batista immediately say up now. He got it out the boyfriend now we're good now, Everything's fine, anticipate up. Well, we don't know it just enough yeah it doesn't. It doesn't sit with meter, the renowned anything that happen with this case. Not only the way it was. It was investigated, but also with the way it was covered. because that's it again. I see the news, media and listen it's hard. It's convince your editor that you now aren't there is. There is a case,
get out- and you know I'm just gonna work on this case for the next month, but this was also a time when newspapers are making a ton of money in others before then he had great newspaper crash of the two thousands. When Craigslist took away forty percent of their revenue and all that there were there were people that could have have taken this. Now. Let me listen to them the these, the the place that I wrote this that story for his gun you haven t. I went looking for the article yesterday and the websites down to in there was an paper that had been around for forty years. I know that such a bummer November really is- and I think it's specifically like one of the lake- and one last thing I want to say about this- is like with the Arab went witten thing. They said that you know he he stopped. He got a speeding ticket. He wouldn't go all the way home than come all the way back to dump her in Boston.
Right into me. It's like, but that's what he does like. He comes into Boston at three. I am often and he's very open about that he's not hiding it. He drags is dogged Boston, three, unlike from thirty to forty minutes away. Yes like it, what is so weird to think he would bring her somewhere do that. and then bring her back to where he took her and dump baldly or leave her anything about this he's gotta garage he's got someplace in Boston. Leaves the body. There gets him car is flying so he speeding flying back home to at some tools to come back No he's not gonna want to drive with her in the car, because of that very thing is like it caught with her in the car. So that's not out of the question either not you know and it's like in its end. It is obviously very suspicious that, like six months later, he and
six months later, who commits heap him, he takes his own life. Why ask that you now, and I really that speculation, what could have happened but its fishy incessantly Vichy it's very fishy and then, I think it a deeper dive into Hammond like us, Had you not just putting it out there to any body that that might have member this guy or might have now had a friend that yeah you now. I remember cheap went home with him thing or they went to a hotel or or he had like. Like a small, you know studio, Hartman in Back Bay that that is that was in a garage like the sun along those lines, but there's a lot of places that were like that that were you could do things like that. You can make.
You could make a little bit a noise and nobody would hear you and it's you and it's not out of the question, to think that he was gone back to get tools and then come back now. That definitely make sense, and do you do you think that she could have been alive for longer at that, like closer to the Sunday morning when she was found. Let's say When did she she went. She went missing that was a Friday night, yet yeah I didn't I have had my or Saturday morning at three. they morning at three. I am thirty hours scattered yeah, I mean who knows in other matters. There were really no signs of kind of torture like you saw with Elizabeth Short, but sheikh. She certainly could have been I live longer. I wondered. Did she do we know because they kind of I they kind of fluff away the idea that she went back to the crash bad at any point, two:
and she might do we is there any. I I didn't find any evidence that she did or didn't like. I think it's just kind of like we don't yeah I found no evidence of of that she did or didn't see. You got a sort of think that maybe she didn't for her to be have been your passed out, the floor dancing and whirling around with a full so that she had a flower in her hand at one point in the alleyway, either for her to have gotten without a cab and hope they are. This presupposes that they checked all this stuff that they act ever camera in between there and there are enough they did or not if they, if they checked cabdriver and said: did anybody pick up when you know this this bondwoman? this bondwoman with somebody else and here's your picture out enough. They did that amount her being able to walk Would have been really rough bit walking from their into that that that studio in the south- and so you now all comes down to the the
instigation and what what was investigated at that time. You know they knew they were investigating anything on that are that next night now, because he was found on on em. On Sunday morning, so there could be no, thus the cases that are going on Saturday at once, she's found on Sunday once you DE her once you talk, to her friends and find out where she was that night there So when you jest and end, then you also know a potential. the nation, that she had the destination which as the studio of the employer, the destination of of where she, was working and then also where she was found and then, where she was last seen you triangulate that area and then you, this kind of look around for everything there and is ok. If she went this way, you have to have you. No two percent team go through ask every bit this. Would you now? Can we see you're on your footage? Ask at you now then you have to
person team, go to all of the different cap drivers. Do you this person up? You got it go through all of that. Do then another two person team to go near the fence. The check The video there and down I mean you like to think that they did that they probably did do that, but you know who knows a yak as it that's the thing it so hard to find anything of note about that stuff now either can I find the same stuff over and over again, no matter how far you dig seriously- and I haven't looked into you know until we we talked about this is like that. You want to talk about this case. I am Looked into this case, you now and probably some six or seven years I think, whether it was all the same stuff, it's all the same stuff them. That was from back that in my my story keeps on common up and you it's a psycho and then you see also that I wrote my story what fifteen years ago and then I'm reading stories that have been written between and now- and I know they're using mice by stormy source. So it's
like I'm, not real, there's nothing really even new here from between these fifteen years, because there does bouncing off of what I was found, because I was a guy that just happened to be in the true crime that wanted to write this story and was able to have a hook, because that black Dolly mood was coming yeah. You know, So now I think I mean the only other thing that is kind of strange. That can probably just point to Frank. Rap again is that fire that was in a dumbson are behind their house, though I think it was the Monday after they found her yeah, but again, every time you look into that, it's like yeah, so they called the police and the police. they will again it's fine, nothing was found in them is now there wasn't. Any known remains, and it's like. Ok, I ended
I can understand that. There's no human remains that's pretty like obvious to Nazi, but it's like was there anything of hers? We don't know that leg right. They don't say that they tested definitively every piece of ashen. Therefore anything that belong to Corina, and it still just strange to me like all of the stuff surrounding Frank and Susan, and why were they so uncooperative? And why did they I mean Loring up right away? I got, but why were they sell uncooperative yeah don't even talk about it. Now you yeah exactly, they won't talk about it now they want it all to kind of go away. You taken understand to appoint my. U turning point it so hard when you're a mean, imagine your child that they go off to America than they get murdered in it, so it so hard to try and put ass from overseas and a lot of times I tell this to every victim's family is that the squeaky we'll get the Greece and you need a con.
that may be yelling and yelling over and over again at police departments in a what happened, what happened and eventually they get to you now, if you keep doing it, that they're gonna be like alright, let's what's openly reopened, investigation was do this us do that not for they were closed it, but it was nobody. Does nobody make phone calls today on this? hey, it's not happening now. I guess so yeah. So you know that's the thing that I did that about this case. Its approach Storm in order for somebody to get away with it, because we ve got a police department that might have been a little lax that might have in protecting their own. You ve got a an employer that just lawyer it up. You ve got a time period right before social media right before cell phones and then you ve got a family. That is thousands of miles away that that might not. You now understand the legal system in the? U S that might not have even had the funds to come over here and be look what happened to my daughter
in this key pressing over and over again, there is a lot there that it's a perfect storm for somebody to get away with murder, oh yeah, absolutely everyone and she came over here through illegal means through that, like Mummy Agency, that doesn't really do the proper channels to get these girls over here. So that's another like fishy element to the whole thing yeah on both sides, so There's just a lot working against. I think them getting any answers, unfortunately yeah, but before and before I like, wrap this up and let you go solve a cold case noise which I'm assuming you're gonna do tonight that my yeah, I figure but we're dead, ready for it
You mentioned like how you spoken to victims, families about this kind of thing and had to you now tell them to be vigilant with the police and like really be at them, and it just gonna make me think about it that we I wanted to ask you like how you deal with the heaviness that you deal with. Speaking to victims, families so much because we have only had to happen really like once or twice where I mean one that comes to mind is we did an episode on Mattie Clifton, the eight year old that was held by her neighbor Joshua Philips, and we were contacted by her sister Jessica and her sister Jessica was like hey this autumn is conceptions about this case, and there were some wrong things like. Can I talk to you so we had her do a whole episode. Oh that's! Where we just let her talk rise. You tell us like you. We want your side, but afterwards I remember we looked at each other cause, we're talking to Jessica about her sister in this horrible thing,
We're like oh, like this is so heavy like I couldn't you. I d like watch. Bravo for like two hours afterwards, you silly cleanse my mind of- If so, what was happening? So I just want to ask you like what what do you do till I get the you must deal with. It constantly could such as what you do yeah you know, and it's you know I have my escapes: definitely in our escapement Disney and escape in star wars and Harry Potter, and yet the things that normally that the people that's funny, because as a lot of employee he's at Disneyland Anna Harry Potter, land that say that day escape. That's right but I like the way you know you ve got to. You got in others, one time I I interviewed a guy who is doing the reconstructions for the Barbara case
he's got into their lawns and worked it now, and I have been working the barbaric case, but before before Jason's podcast, I I did a bunch of stuff on it for grandma daily and then I was on traces pine chased. It amazing Java Park asked adjacent moon with their brook cases, a crazy, so yeah and that's that's, been a big part of my book and end the new cap, the new chapter, the book, which I actually to finish the neutral, by the way before my by the hard cover even came out because that when they identified three, therefore victims but well yeah when he was working on that, and he was showing me how he was you're here show me where the head drama was too, a little girls and he is like its devastating, but you got it. You gotta turn that devastation in Motivation- and that's you know, especially when you're dealing with children- that's it you ve got to do
yeah. It's only children to its also children who have lost their parents, to which seems to have hit me more than anything, I'm those those in a you know that there is a little kid out there without without a model without a doubt that just wants to know why, and you know, that's going to affect them so much growing up to now and dumb. So that's the that's. What I try to do, and you know I they're happy that somebody's lessening yes, oh you know you, you have to put it off yourself that, like you, dont hat, you know you want to solve this thing. You wanna get them answers, but you don't have to their just there. Just happy that at least that
happy, but there there you're you're, giving them at least something because you're you're you're helping in some certain way even of his ear. Just given them summit of the talk to an Danny, you know whence I you know. If I can turn off the computer, it turn off the phone for a little bit. When I go into is just you know, just trying to kind of eke out a little bit and. and think about about happier things and absolutely no. What is it? What's? My most favorite common room, Hogwarts and things like that tell me it's not like that. Just I relates about so high. That is also how the deep ended slithering they have thus. Literate has the best common house became underwater water exactly and they have a second aquarium, and you can see that we recognise law, as is like by lifted alike. yeah yeah I think I think that also a kind of helped us slake. You deal with this,
time you deal with the real people behind these stories, which I know you know hosting a true hand broadcast your telling the stories you're trying to do justice to it, but I think talking to Jessica, Clifton made us the single like woe. We knew there were real people behind these stories, but like that, really brought it home like that, think it made us. We always try to be very respectful, talk it from the victims, point of view and really tell their story more than the shithead story that someone right, but I think after that we are like ok, we really need to make sure. Now that we like to be at that there's a family out there, the lost someone and we're not telling this for entertainment value are telling this to get the story out their yeah yeah exactly and there is, there is a there. There is a responsibility there and its responsibility that doesn't come with a lot of other mediums, Beata or at least subject matter.
there is a real, real responsibility that we ve got now. Definitely I think we should wrap this up. So again you can go south called cases this is why we want to thank you so so so much for coming on and talking to us about the UK, because this was an amazing, so thank you so much for having me and it was one to one day we will share a drink at some point at one of those bars there do you guys live in Boston? no. We live like twenty minutes outside a Boston where I love you. That's melted, astern, ourselves, legacy, warehouses itself, first gonna play we live and I live out. Ok, I live in New York is out when I was there. I live in Wayland at the time. Ok, right on the water. It's what it is like when you you're trying to. I was trying to think of like what house would be the best house that I've lived in frequent between now and also other whale and house would be cool because, even though it was small, it had a high
tub in the back, which was weird and then it and then it was by the late- is by the way the whale in the lake. So just like you walk around that, there be kind of a brown warranted, and so I ve been now I've. I've been playing about sort of game with myself Where would I rather be than is here because usually I'm like? What's the best bars I've ever been through and then at the usual ranking that I have in my head? But you can't really do that anymore. It will work with us. Fortunately, well yeah. We will definitely will definitely have to share doing some time and, yes has been awesome, you rule and I care We need to see you solve. More cases may be there
It's really really hard to dear gonna. Do it everywhere people say that I'm gonna pick my stomach. I gotta that's right. I gotta galleries of international pressure. I'm like solve the cases through. I do like it's like it's six o clock now, like do I cook dinner or do I know you saw the following its not a question anywhere. Beg you, everybody for listening and yeah. So we hope you keep listening and we hope Oh, do you wanna Billy? We do. We normally say me hope you keep it. We are doing to say the weird partiality, and so we hope you,
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Transcript generated on 2021-07-04.