I'm over Winfrey welcome to supersede conversations the podcast? I believe that one of the most valuable gives you can give yourself is time taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now,. today, on Super soul, Sunday he's been name one of the one hundred most influential people buy Time magazine journalist pod, castor and author of five New York Times best selling books, Malcolm as well as a car As for the new Yorker and hosted the popular podcast revisionist history mouth challenges us to look at life from a different perspective, We first met on the opera show to discuss his book. Blink, which became a global phenomenon selling nearly six million copies

been translated into more than twenty five languages, at a time when division, tension and anger seem to pervade our daily lives, Malcolm at well once again invites us to turn the whirl onto its side and take a closer look at what really going on in his gripping new book king to strangers what we should know about the people we don't know Malcolm put forth the theory that Too often, we make dramatic, often dangerous assumptions about people. We don't know. through well known cases like the Bernie made off scandal and the Amanda Knox trial, the Jerry. And dusky abuse trial and the racially charged arrest and death of Sondra Bland, Malcolm Gladwell examined his belief that many of us unconsciously invite conflict and misunderstanding into our own lives. After are you. I love this book. This is my favorite of all the books except tipping point blank

David and Goliath, but this is, I I think some of your most profound work of thinking and particularly for a time such as this that we're living in And everybody thinks the world is Topsy turvy and you have a way of. Throwing over the rocks and letting us underneath and allowing us to actually see things are not always as they seem and now you have so many imitators, but their call them. Glad William imitated. How does it feel you, you might have a few yourself? I dont think of them amateurs No, I always like that. I mean you ve, created a entirely new John RARE looks. I was thought I was joining them As opposed to meeting a movement, I thought I felt like I

he's doing wide journalists and academics have always tried to do, which is to give us the means to look at. Familiar problems in a new way does outside, Give yourself as being someone who started something, I think that's a little, although that's ok. What are you saying you start it's all right, I'll, accept this Well in error that we're in now of genre of works, but It is particularly interesting talking to strangers? How did come to decide that this was going to be the next book you we literally are waiting for when the next book is coming out. It's been now almost six years, and how did you decide that this would be it and talking to strangers was the rock you wanted to uncover here? We, That wave of police shooting case. brutality cases, beginning with Michael Brown and twenty fourteen ends. I was really shaken up by them and then I, began to read about that problem,

And realized even going on forever, which has, as poses However, we need to realise that that it was on a scale I've, never imagined thousand civilians are killed every year by police in his country. Logically been going on for ever with african Americans. I was saying this to my white friends in saying: oh, no! No! No! I got this been going on for ever now. We just have the cameras to show you. Yes, yes- and I I just thought with something broader there a kind of ways in which we were trying to make sense of these events seem to me to be inadequate, and I also What I don't what I really dislike about those kind Cases is where we have a big fuss and, as all kinds of people jump, up and down, I demand a point if someone saying, because we're always looking to blame somewhere, it's him yeah He just didn't notice, he's races do you know he's doing he's a bad cop. These people person- I think you know

If it happens, as often as it happens, maybe there's something deeper, going on here and I'm honored and racism. Well, In addition to you, can't separate race, these police shooting cases. It is inextricably part of the he's an why they happen, which you also can't say that this just about a racist cop, because. more than its there's something? deeper going on with the way in which we have struck, relationships between not just between. Please upstairs and civilians, but all between strangers of all kinds, and that's really why, where I got to my book as like, can we A step back and say: wait a minute is yours something fundamentally wrong with the way we are making sense of people who are different from ourselves. Bringing the wrong strategies to that problem and Sarah way for me to kind of shedding light on. these kinds of strategies and waited, obvious not just

makes sense of things like. Sandro, Blanda, Michael Browner everyone does only abandoned OX matter, Knox, jury, Sandusky, the standard rate K spread only eight off. I mean all of these cases struck me as being version. The same problem, which is there Two people are trying to have a conversation and they kept each other out, and I can't figure out in Iraq, because her get making errors, so the cushion what are those errors you write on page fourteen if we were more thoughtful as a society if we were willing to engage in some soul, searching How we approach and make sense of strangers to blind would not have ended up dead in a Texas jail cell. So she's a central figure in this book. Tell me why so the beginning and the end of the yes she's a frame for the whole book. I obviously I thousands of cases I could have picked to be deferred, but there was something about.

just how stupid and senseless and heartbreaking her case, Here's a woman twenty, eight years old, come to get us to start her life anew in previous texts in Lebanon, college town, in in the middle of rural taxes, and we must say this happen as you just mention after Michael Brown, after Freddy Gray Effort to London, still era Garner Walter Scott out now, your black now Sondra, Bland and she's, a very politically aware person but she's She's really should had some difficulties in Chicago she's moving. She starting a life over generally arrived in imperative, taxes that day gets hasn't job interview. She gets this job she's, leaving the campus to buy groceries Anna service for, looks at her and makes a judgment, and his judgment is, I think, there's something funny about her any trumped up in.

here's to polar over and what? What What is so heartbreaking about their cases? You remember is we have to do can the court The conversation that ensues, which we all here the entire conversational conversation, and it goes on ages, while it starts out he's Greece friendly, he comes up in asked where she ok, and why are you here and we think it's fine- until he asked her to put out the cigarette- and she says correctly what I have to put up my cigarette and by the way she's done anything, right. He pulls up behind. This is a kind of weird but important detail. poles in behind her. She turns right out of the campus and she's going along the ring road of the campus, and he thinks you're something funny about her, so he pulls out and dry

some really fast behind her. So what does she do? She moves over to get out of the way, of course, which is what you do in a cop is driving money. That's right! You do. The thing that we're tell which was to pull over to decide, but she doesn't use, are turning signal. Cause she's getting out of the way right has. So what does he do? We poles or governesses man? You didn't turn you didn't use returning signal its a completely and she said What did I do? I mean I didn't use by turning signal because I was getting out of your way exactly yes and so she's irritated as she should be Falander Trump, and so he Got to tell her Mammy should have used here you're turning signal. She died take her out. He says: could you put that and she says correctly no. Why do I have to put out a cigarette and then what the thing that ever a sideways and they have this argument that escalates any ends up hitting her dragging out of the car Hannah cuffing her, where she let's suicide today. So yes, I must

Red and listen to that transcript, can even tell you how many times it up that's me more. Each time I hear and the question is: how is it thing that trip can go so badly awry in the. In brief, daylight in one of the most civilised countries in the world, yet and you say so correctly, We see that story. We see Falander Castille. We see me Brown, we see all those stories and people just move on and you weren't talking strangers because you wanted. to stop and not over, and I dont want people to everything Sandro Bland is, but we can't keep These things away and forgetting about them without drawing some kind of conclusions about why they happen So how do we begin to actually shift from the, judgment of others and then start looking at

ourselves and asking the question. What role do I play in this? Is that your attempt to try to get it to do that? So what to do with a book is to systematically break down the multi assumptions that lead encounters between strangers to go awry, so I meet you for First time all we know about each other is what we can see about each other. We start to have a recession gas, sometimes, it goes well. Sometimes it goes horribly wrong, but we're making judgments all the time based on our own. unconscious, biases and conscious, exonerate I'll give you one of the ones that I spent a lot of time on is was I call the assumption of transparency, which is When I see you, I serve your demeanor your face Your expressions, your emotions, body language and I, our conclusions about that? Am I Assumption is that the way you record, and your emotions on your face and with your body, language is reflective, is can.

system with the way you feel in your heart? If you smile, Let me it means you're happy. If you free me. It means you're, not happy right. That is true with some people, some of the time but it is not true of many people a lot of the time now. I think so interesting because you use in the book. You call it. I think the friends fallacy, because we ve all grown up watching these said coms and we see in the characters the the mad between whatever is going on, looks like whatever their faces. Also representing. So it took an episode of friends we wish you much friends you reminded about how insanely complex those shows where, like so much happens, so everything was. If you choose. Off the sound on an episode of friends. Can you fall what's going on, and the answer is absolutely absolutely can you follow because your insanely complicated because, everything that happens is on everyone Face when,

ok- is angry. She looks angry when Rossi perplexed. He looks perplexed and all the way down the line, It's our assumption of the way the world works. We assume that emotions are reliably being broadcast. so the world turns out. That's not true at all, I had a psychologist who studies facial expressions, analyze segment of that friends episode for me and break it down it is absolutely the case to using them as a kind of way, which emotions at It can be registered and kind I love. This was so fascinating awarded yeah and what I do it did was. She said, Kate is innocent terrific subset of a scene where raw is really angry. What and his face, and the answer is the perfect creation of anger and innocent if exceeding where logic has mixed emotions. She is both upset at.

Her brother, if I've seen em, but also would also like once to express her love for her brother. Does her face showed that mixed emotions, the answer is totally. Does why? Because their actors in the real world. Where I was reading this, I must say my closing the friends actors, you're gonna, be so happy to those receiving perfect, perfect extraction. of emotion, rights but in the real world that doesn't, it doesn't work. That way. May I so many times I was reading this book and I get to the end of an analysis and I go That is so true. So focus in the real world, it doesn't doesn't match. don't, go anywhere more to come after this short break Today's episode is supported by american heritage. Chocolate have you ever baked anything that required graded chocolate. It can be a little messy and time consuming. Eric inherited Chocolate, Mars Wrigley Brand has the answer. Finally, graded baking, chocolate, easy to use and easy to melt all

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find out more about their historic recipe and shop online at American Heritage, chocolate, dot com, that's it! Eric inherited chocolate, dot, com, we have a chapter on the Amanda Knox: Kate, yes,. That's the whole Amanda Knox case in a nutshell Her inner emotions don't match the way she behaves. She beheld like someone who didn't care what happened to her dead roommate inside she cared. but she just as someone who those her interview enter outward ix. of emotion, don't match, and it started the moment. She was with other friend of the Romania was murdered and she didn't have the same reaction. They did so they become suspicious of? Why isn't she like us. Why is she grieving yeah? Why was her hug so stiff? The technical word for what she has is mismatched her interference don't match her outward emotions when we do with someone who is mismatched.

a very real risk. We will get them very badly wrong. So Bernie Meda, his mismatched is in the opposite way. If you did you ever made now? I never met my God. I was asked whether they goodness I didn't idea, because I would have I would have been seduce do you know why, because I would have heard from outside. This presents in it and Ellie resolve such a dear friend of mine in Ellie. Resell was in, but I would have thought of this persons involved in this person's. Invest in this present invested must be a great guy. you couldn't have all of these outstanding people, Who also care about their you know: finances, invest with him, if he, if they haven't check them out, that's what I probably would have thought but here he is someone who's inside he's a psychopath out he seems like the most trustworthy kind of man of integrity. That's so that's problem number one

But now the we haven't talked about the one thing: that's now going to become a cultural phrase and everybody is going to be talking about the truth default. Defaulting to the truth. The reason why everyone accepted Bernie Meda, this, because the report to the truth, he had. This is a really interesting idea from a psychologist, TIM Levite, who, I think, is an absolute good, brilliantly rethought some of the most central issues about how human beings communicate and his crew inside is his deal. The fact that human beings are really bad at figuring out when someone else's lying we're just all I'm excluding judges, judge Your batted cops about a few tiny exceptions, but generally not good at it in a question is: why are we good you'd think would be good? My wooden evolution have favoured those who are good at detecting decision. and he says no.

The opposite is true- that we are condition by evolution to basically assume that ever one is telling the truth. Unless there is some overwhelming reason to believe otherwise a lesson US rise so high that this there's no way to believe someone telling us the truth anymore, and I think it's wonderful that you start with people right, where they live. You were saying, and every We can relate to this if you believe. Your spouse is cheating on you and you ask the question. are you cheating on me or but this doesn't make sense or that doesn't make sense and they give a reasonable answer. Most people will believe it. First time you will default to church the truth is sharp. Our preferred position is to be the world is telling us the truth and that's why, he was society works. If I, if we state when you make? I think I don't know she lying rule, we couldn't have a conversation,

If everyone does that, then the world does work and nuts timber vines pointers, the reason human society functions because we have a Einstein assumption that people are not lying to us and what that means is every now and again one time out of a hundred when someone really is lying to us with a strong chance, we're gonna get take it we're gonna, get to see yeah. Let's talk about Sandusky and the p, who end up having to serve time because they did to the truth for too long Let's talk about you, so we remember the horrible case. State of terrorists and asking this cereal chocolate who was a prominent football coach of the school he was apprehended. He was can did he's now and Jeff the rest of his life, but the Penn state. the prosecution didn't stop there. They then went and went after senior effect.

at the university, including the universities, president, guess cases still ongoing, but it pursued criminal case against those see administrators as well for a cover up for basic. Not of letting this man run free on the pencil campus, I a very strongly that it is wrong to pray. Do a criminal case against those she administrators what they were They were deceived by a child molesters and by the way chocolate just one of the things that makes them child This is a really good at deceiving the rest of the world. Have right, I've been trying to tell people, it's not easy does cause. If, if you're not good at it, then you can't succeeds introducing the child yeah. It's like putting do. We do be put the people who were deceived by Bernie made often to jail did we say you should have known better you, no, I didn't I, I really I think that attitude is deeply, equally problematic why we cannot look back in retrospect?

and and blame someone for the failure. pick out a one in a million psychopath. hard wired to find psychopaths in amidst one of the big themes of this book in his does tie backfire wrong into the central bank case, is that we need be far more generous in our assessment of other people. Yes, we are just so quick to assume that, something there was a cop Someone was negligence, some one and not, and I think it's what interest a pause and to understand when, when sometimes a bit when mistakes are made, it is because of perfectly The scandal of legitimate reasons why you keep in the rock and uncovering so many interesting things in talking to strangers. One of the things that struck me was the Stanford rate case. Can we talk about that quite sure this is going to be the most talked about, the book and it was really hard to write about so that the case. Where happened cup,

years a freshman at Stanford, a boy meets woman at a property. There are both very, very drunk and he takes her outside t sexually culture and his discovered and he's tried and he spent six months ago usually controversial case of a time, particularly because it can It is a kind of the one of those signature cases that has thrown up bought light on just how much a problem. Sexual assault now is on campus. and I was interested in one specific part of that case, which is to what extent as alcohol can to this epidemic of sexual assault right because the weird thing is that when you start digging through the case files of sexual assault cases, everyone's always drunk really really hard to find a sexual saw case where both parties were sober, you mean on.

On camp recycled capacity. I gave us, and so I start to talk to people who study sexual assault on campus and people who study are gone and they were like. Oh, yes, it's almost always our cows almost always involve any began to talk me through there. search? Well, when you drink and by the way, the way that the people who are in vain in these cases, and also- but I would say more generally, the core of peace who are drinking on campus in today's environment are drinking in a way that you and I did not drink in that age drinking has changed quite dramatically over the last one s when I was just reading about it's like everybody's drinking everything today, talk to. I was talking to some friends of mine children, friends of mine, who were in college. I now- and I said how many of your friends have experienced blackouts, and they just like download another every weekend, this guy areas. If we talk about it, you know they talk about him on Friday night before they go about low gonna, get black eyed drunk this.

It's a very different environment, and that has consequences for there are the way to talk to strangers. Parties are talking to strangers when both strangers are drunk. It's a dick, conversations, since this was the thing that was so revealing, two may, Many of those who study alcohol, no I consider it an agent of DIS inhibition. I mean I underline that because all of our lives, you ve, been told it so an ambition. Did you say they think of it as an agent of myopia. Tell us what you mean by that to the old theory about alcohol was Malcolm, gets drunk. as Malcolm gets a little tipsy. What you see is the real Malcolm. Yet all of the constraint uptight Malcolm falls away and you're seeing like them. I you see my true self. We no longer believe that's nonsense. Instead happening is a little more complicated win. You drink what

happening is you're. You basically get Dahmer, your coggan Faculties start to kind of shrink and what once when that, when you're cognitive faculty shrink, when you get dumber, is that you get myopic everything that is meaning you just focused on. What's in front of you all that matters is not drunk Malcolm all, like all about it. is not just you in front of me, but all matters is was happening. Right This very moment so lonely. I dont do certain kinds of crazy thing. because I really oh doubly consequences. Half an hour later I'll get in trouble or tomorrow I wake up in a big o, my god. That was that's. Why paved the way behave when I'm sober when I'm drunk Thought of tomorrow falls away all thought of contact this falls away and what matters is just. Here and now person in front of me. I am I when you are myopic, you are not yourself I've got another great example that you used welcome was that the

drinking affect your differently depending on where you are that, if you're drinking in your add a foot Gay when everybody else's drinking, then it euphoric Babo blah and if you are sitting alone at a bar, and you're drinking alone, that the alcohol has a completely different effect. Yes, somewhere Theory says that what Where is your immediate circumstance is controlling the way you think and feel and behave. So if I'm drunk, Annie wild and crazy party, I'm wild and crazy, I'm drunk in a dark quiet, deserted bar I'm depressed so you're at the mercy of your environment. Now think about this interesting. You take an eighteen year old who was full of hormones whose immature doesn't have much experience with girls you take too to party you get to two and a half times the legal limit about call. So he can lately my OPEC, can you cry

up the music you have, it may have around him. First varies a longer himself and, secondly, how is primed to do something and credibly stupid. If not criminal, we a formula for its something bad happened. They something super super bad happening and we are not. Communicating that fact to kids we're not telling that eighteen year old boy who goes to fret Party, if you get mulatto drunk, you are put let us yourself at risk. Other people at risk right does us. Hence that alcohol is a kind of harmless. It's not harmless. It is a danger dangerous drugs, and I think that absence. What makes me so and what makes it more dangerous is not being aware of the consequences of what happens, and it's not just. I think we ve done affair, a decent job in recent years of not having while drunk or not doing certain things when you're in intoxicated. But what talk

strangers allows us to see. Is that it even deeper than its deeper than I can't If I am wasted right now, I have no way to really understand who You are what you want right self, having a conversation, and I'm I'm half as smart as I normally am, and all thought of tomorrow has fallen away, and then maybe I'm blacked out. So I can't remember anything: people forget being black out drunk is at the same as being passed out, I can I can walk and talk and communicate. and tell jokes and waved my hands, and here is just than forming no memories so think about to people. You got a boy whose eighteen and full of hormones in what does he want at a party apps? We know what he wants a party, whereas he's trying to negotiate that with a woman, and knows what is what his

if she's trying to capture the woman whose all so blackout drunk yeah. So if she says no get away from me, he doesn't remember it right or care or care, or for that matter because he's not thinking about the consequences of tomorrow, also not reading any of the signals that reality not reading any other signals. This is interesting to me because, when I was thinking you know this is certainly not excuse is just explanation, it's exactly right, not an excuse. It's it's an escalation, so I was thinking that in many of these cases, when people been blackout drunk and people- Of course, you should remember. Of course you should know. Of course you did that. Perhaps they don't in Sandford rape case. One of the heartbreaking things is Jane DOE? The victim hurt asked memory is at midnight before she even met or assailant Turn next memory is what

up and hospital and not knowing why she's there it's all gone right, and I think that that sort of what made out makes our case extraordinarily poignant and it's so interesting to that when surveys were done and students are asked, what can we do to deter some of the sexual assaults on campus people? Talk about anything other than drinking which I don't understand, I don't understand how we got to this position where.

drink I'm gonna make a different, actually color. I think it's gonna make people stand up and look at things in a different kind of way gets a call this weekend and save during the friends and family cell take an extra twenty percent of ITALY's for the family, fifty ninety nine and under the new forbidden spiders. You is ninety nine. Ninety, nine and stable family dinner, seventeen, eighty nine and under Flask Eagles Gas- was fastened restored it up by a little more. This ball shall calls and calls that com select styles of his relatives over thirty through until before the twenty percent off from a goddamn shop limit offers and give us do not apply. Some aspersions applies historical. Somebody else would switch to some soul to Seoul questions. You MIKE sure. Ok, what is a piece of wisdom. You wish the leaders of the World use in their decision, making it care to be wrong. Just it's fine just say I I blew it,

this trying to they're a better way is there's something about the times were living in now that that's harder, more heart, more difficult than ever more challenging than ever. Do you think People say that there is some about the media culture may be, but I dont you're the minute you get outside of, New York, city and washing DC people are, unforgiving people. It is waiting for one of the leaders to stand up and say I'm I stood up. How me do this better, they just waiting for it. I don't think they would reject that'll get angry or it has to be said, with a certain amount of basin, humility. I think there is much appetite for longing for humility in our leaders today, as has ever been and forgiveness, ten forgiveness, think this? I don't think this something has fundamentally changed in human nature, because people

fundamentally, are always doing exactly what you say defaulting to the truth. They want to believe one took: that's why it's it's so difficult when people are shown. The true right before their eyes, for them to actually Acknowledge that it's actually happening What's a must selfless thing you ve ever seen? Selfless belts doubtless thing you ve ever witnessed first hand well. most is a kind of our party Maybe it's like whenever I talk to anyone. I know who's a young mother and I figure out how many hours they sleep I do think that is there anything more selfless than that, then waking up it. there isn't very executes, so maybe that's it. I came out of nowhere more selfless, then actually being a good mother or a parent that kind of that would be top o my list. Do you think of all the things that people have to do? I?

Think about this all the time with my producers, terrorist one of them was five kids, so she's there, in the end, the office. The same amount of time- I am, I come Home- I come home to three dog She goes home you step in the door there, five kids who don't care that you had a whole day and what happened in that day, but you you have to be just as need to be for them and that mom, I don't know anything more soldiers. I guess Bobby, I'm others what the question or the mystery. That's It's in your mind, discussion, I'm just for you that you hope to have answered in your lifetime, and I asked question because you're one whose always covering the mysteries for us. One question I have always wondered about is: what does it mean to change someone's mind lesson ashore of my ability to change people's minds And I'm wondering, is it because I'm

doing things wrong. Is it because it's much more fun just to play people who are already in agreement with you am I Narrowing myself and just speaking too to the kind of? But may I say just reading this book. I don't know my mind was changed, but it certainly was opened. And I'm gonna go and read it again, because it's done that that you most want to do is to get people to differently about something what I'm always searching for in my conversations with people. Is that moment where you can get them or the audience to think algae? I never thought of it that way before, and this is filled with that on em in every chapter, but you are unusually open minded person right.

I don't know, I'm usually open, grew out, but I'm open yet so my question is: I had an incredibly interesting conversation, the Jesuit Pristine, James Martin, who one of his causes is: can I My church to accept gay people Is there a way for me and not accept in the sense of using think he can get the Pope change trade but to ensure that the people in that area embrace them treat them, as any as they would treat any on a human being or any other catholic? was fascinated to talk to him about so he's grappling with this problem. Can Can I change someone's mind who's not inclined to change their mind? Is there a way for me, too, deal with this issue with such sensitivity and intelligence and restraint. And humility? that they will move from. talk about it too. You know

I will happily praying to someone like this on a Sunday morning, I was just so kind of far in awe of how he was approaching a question and. Unsure about how a whether I could ever figure out how to attack LE taskmaster well, Isn't it true, though, that you can never do it in theory? I remember in all the years of the upper show that The way we got people to see things differently and even many times to change them. Mind- is not by doing for example, a show about gay people, incorporating in the early years? people taking care of their children or gay, people doing ordinary things that everyone else did, and then you see oh gee they're just like that. like me. I think you have to I have a sense of

oh, I see myself in this person that person just like me and so they now. What does it mean to be gay? because in so many other ways there just now I may ass. Well, you had the great I feel this is a crucial in really listing point, which is you had the benefit of time? Yes, so you took people on a journey that lasted twenty five years? and I think that that was the They started with your way way back when they came to trust and slowly over time. I write you must have changed, but so but twenty five years is a long time that nobody is Madame. I remember being a grocery store wants. Is why my favorite moments when a what stop me, and she said I watching his show end the first time you said it because I didn't believe you she said, but it's because you had inconsistent. been consistent.

watch you and every time you talk about kids, you say: don't hit your kid, so he took his arm and then you took my gear, don't get a key. Is she said and only how you go, how good kids? You don't hit them, so she said the last summer. Don't you talk about hidden? Your kids are set on we'll try for one week. he said so, I went to weaken. I didn't hit my kid and then I went another weaken it didn't hit. My kid- and she said it's been remarks- and I haven't hit my kid and I have a different kid and I'm a different mother. So it's not one thing. It's the we're time you know you're saying you know. I think that is that right. that idea of introducing issues into the process this is really crucial, though like maybe we get into trouble when we're just two think- and we can do these kinds of chain- overnight. we need to do is accept the fact that its twenty five year process? Yes, I wear this book and then ended up calling you, because I wanted to have a conversation.

I feel that way I feel so passionately. Why exclude something that changes the way. I see my dolphin. I see others which I think is what this book is done. So I want people to read. Talking to strangers because it's one of those sperience is that will we change the way you not just see strangers: it will change the way. The news it will change the way you sperience off encounters with other people. Don't you since this off to your publisher- and you have done the final page and brought all the way back around to saunter blame Europe. deepest hope for the book was. That we would all acknowledge our complicity in. death of Sandra planned that. that wasn't about a rogue cop and stupid, you know small town and what have you it was about that we have institutionalized way

is of dealing with strangers. They make no sense. We have asked police officers required them, forced them push them to making events about people that shouldn't be made you it baby about some of, It look like, but there was also so much more. There was so much where we have designed in the last part of the book. Really about how are you faulty ideas about dealing with strangers affected. The way our law enforcement system is designed and the answer is all the things we talked about a sum about transparency by default to truth have fun what is a match? What is in a match, FED into a philosophy of law and order which has had DAS Trust results so you didn't, let us forget Sandro plan you, that's not! That's not ever forget her. Thank you good job,

if I'm over Winfrey and you ve been listening to supersede conversations the pod cast. You can follow super soul on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook if you haven't yet go to apple Plod CAS and subscribe rate and review. This punk cast join me next week for another supersonic conversation. Thank you for listening.

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