« Over My Dead Body

Tally: Against Mercy | 6

2019-03-05

The Tally police department is convinced they have the evidence to arrest four people in a murder conspiracy. But prosecutors only charge three. Why?

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
A listener note, this story contained adult content and language Our second speaker is damn workhouse speaking about retributive justice and the demands of democratic citizenship. Much din, Kells work focused on a legal concept called retributive justice, the size of the punishment should be proportionate to the size of the crime. Greetings. Everybody thank you very much to neck into gene and to top it all Michael venomous as well as to this speech to, The legal academics in a hotel. Ballroom in DC was one.
Dozens damn gave on this subject over the year. I argue that we can, as retributive as loosen up on the criminalization question and move beyond the insistence on more wrong, doing as a prerequisite for justifying retributive punishment, at least and liberal democracies, and that qualification, one of his most famous keypresses nordic called against mercy which sounds like how can you be against mercy, as stands colleague, mark spots would but that the idea is exercising mercy and a case by case way and lessening punishment. Really is creating disparities between offenders, who ve done similar things, jaws, there has already gone on, but I am happy to answer questions later, and hopefully this will oxen conversation. Thanks then wasn't just a colleague despots would use a friend the first melons What's would move from North western to address you in two thousand and eleven I was already.
We will stand in part because of his prolific blogging right. He caught a kind of a high profile. Given that even still relatively early on in his career that time at the law. School spots. We ended up with an office right next to dance. It was a giant mess up all the time, but it reflected is the intensity of his curiosity and his interests equal parts in paper, is he was reading or books or his kids our work. All, spread all over the place and in his cluttered office the to them would sit in debate pre soon they were friends. I think it was like second or third email. I ever got from him. He signed ex o ex o Danny House. Like are we at dogs and kisses stage already? I think I've met you twice one of the top. They debated was how We decide what punishment to dole out when a person is convicted of a crime. He thought plenty of things about Our criminal justice system were hard to defend If you really wanted to dig deep into
sort of underlying moral principles, but what was one of the very last people to see Dan alive after he was shot before he was legally dead. You know that was sort of key. The body alive, so that his parents could come and say their goodbyes. He was unable to become conscious or talk at that point, so that was just saying goodbye like all of them Friends, spots would hope just This would be served and soon but he was also a legal scholars who knew that this Damn doesn't always work the way it should tv gives Impression of sort of investigators is, and in superpower, in it in reality most cases get solved quickly. It's a pretty easy story to unravel when people have covered their tracks. Its very hard to ever, find them and lots of case. Do go unsolved and sister reality of the criminal justice system.
The painted? Dan's murder was hard enough, but now ends in family had to face another hard truth? What if, despite the best efforts of police and prosecutors dance case was never resolved. His whole life later in life is that of life was about justice. What is being was actually taught, that's really believed in, and Obviously we want to see some justice for him for his kids for us, but closure. Does this one once find the solutions that there is answers. Does that mean It goes away, it still does go away
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The last time Rob Edelson size, entire family, together with an early July of two thousand fourteen hard His dad was turning seventy and the angel since, through a big party, their new Miami Beach Condo Robin Hood. The flew down with their two children when he was there, with her boys Charley. Was there too, of course? the crowd milled, through the apartment and out onto the patio Faced the golden sand of self point. Beach ashore who Wendy hired, served pie and a guests Harvey grown up as a working class, kid in Brooklyn Now he is living in a luxury complex in Miami filled with celebrities. Another multimillionaires- it is three children, a doctor, a dentist in a lawyer. And as for grandchildren altogether. What more could a jewish parents want?
he was just a few weeks later, the Robin Hurry forgot, the phone call. The Dan had been shot down a call me on Saturday morning. I think she had already tried Robin get through issue tax me a couple I was. I was a meeting at a town as in Chicago and when he spoke to me on the other. I talked to her either they text me a couple times in the lead. We need to talk to me right now, Rob excused himself from his meeting and stepped outside. Remember her jacket were standing in the lobby and explain that. Something has happened, and somebody shot Danny and it took him to the hospital they didn't make it He tried calling Wendy calls her multiple times attacked a call. My parents multiple times Finally, she actually called me a strange time during the day when I happen to be free and pick up the phone and dumb. She said she didn't want, hardly anything because her kids were round surprised. He was available
there. She said she really does want to leave a message, and I said well, you called me- and I asked her point blank here. Who would you think happened and her responses will Danny had no shortage of enemies. At the moment you talked about it and that's one two conversations we ve had since some Danny was killed later raw, I want to talk more with his family about what happened to Dan. They just done didn't want to talk about it. Saying that and it doesn't involve them in that Wendy fell. That I was only interested in who would have done this, which seems like a normal reaction When someone, you know someone, you know well his gun down in their home. I think, being interested in a murder of someone you know well is unusual. He never You get a straight answer from his family would shocked him
and his affidavits appeared suggesting members of his family may have ordered Dan's murder Robson speaking with them altogether. Tell I see police believe they had enough evidence to arrest for people, see. Radio Garcia Louis Rivera, Katy, Mag, Panama and Charlie Anal. Sick, Fredo Louis, were arrested in the spring of two thousand. Sixteen in October, the police came for Katy. Thou left, Charlie aid, Wilson, was up till we on counties top prosecutor, Willie Mags, make the decision on whether to indict mags was this. It attorney there for more than three decades are retired into and seventeen and have been Ghana enjoy good life. I say all the time everyday day, Saturday except Sunday, so it's a good life MAX is a tall rangy guy.
Lifetime resident of North Florida. He now spends his retirement on a farm outside of Tallahassee just a few minutes ago. Maternity is road, walk around in the past year. I have Turkey is it they have been up. All my front. Doorstep As from the very beginning, the murder of Denmark Hell was unusual. This one clearly would begin take on the appearance of a hit. We didn't know it was a hard killing at that time, but it took on the appearance of a here and that is unique. We don't have many of those. Fortunately widow MEG says the king is against Garcia. Rivera seemed pretty straightforward areas. A ton of evidence again Sk Garcia and his goat offended the videos and the sightings in the bay. In Tallahassee, and so the case,
it's them was relatively simple and those arrests allowed prosecutors to charge Katy that's kind of what you need to go up the chain. You're gonna need somebody to give you a little testimony to make the circumstantial evidence makes sense. Meg's pray himself on his track record as a prosecutor, he says when it came to big cases and especially big murder cases. He and his death is rarely lost. And he says a major reason, for that was that he was methodical. He was careful. He didn't necessary risks. The standards that we have to look at as prosecutors. We have to have a reasonable likely heard of a conviction, and we all get one shot one shot. Under the law. You can't be tried for the same crime twice so when you pull that trigger mags believes You better be sure you hate your target, because if you don't one day persons free
and could step up and say: yeah beat all. I did this when you missed a whole bunch of stuff and laugh at us, and so we're not going to find ourselves in that position, the police investigate the case may have thought they had enough evidence to move on Charlie. But MEG's was less sure we all can have opinions about. The held. Her innocence of someone are their involvement in it, but opinions don't care what we gotta have as evidence in evidence in the form of aid physical art, testimonial evident said, so to tie it to other people. And you know I I suspicion there are other people involved. I dont think Katy Head the real interest in ordering a hit on a college professor and Tallahassee she's, not motivated by that she's aided by other things, Louis Rivera is cooperating.
But MEG says they ve done all they can out of him and I think revere his brother They told us all he knows, and so he can't die by any kind of testimonial evidence. Other people to this case And so after Katie's arrest, he waited Katy lawyers confirm to us that she'd been offered an immunity deal by the state attorney's office and that she'd rejected and the lawyers say, there's a simple explanation for why there one reason why a mother of two young children were turned down immunity and instead sit in jail for nearly three years, awaiting trial where she risks a mandatory life. Since she was not involved and has no information into the tragic and gruesome murder of Denmark. Yeah, I mean just waiting on a break and it may come it may not
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less evidence in. As this thing goes to trial witnesses, don't wanna come to court, they leave town, it's even less than and we still got a trial. We still can get a conviction, yet was disagreement and Tallahassee about who the charge. In the case William himself admits it. Yeah. There was. There was quite a bit of attention over here the tab but MEG's held firm and when the police were He's there probable cause affidavit to the press, the one the pointed the finger, Charlie Edelson Mags told local newspaper quote what we believe and what we think doesn't count. What evidence do we have end quote, makes his brush back of the police even got a positive response from Charlie's attorney. Mister,
eggs is one of the most experienced state attorneys in a nation, and he knows probable cause when he sees it. We are thankful that he faithfully and honourably fulfilled his duties and did not approve this document, which amount to no more than simple speculation after tat, lean, exhaustive investigation in another interview, MEG's practically dared the police to arrive. Charlie Edelson. Without his blessing, you don't need me MEG said: go, make the arrest and get ready for your civil sued from whoever they ve arrested without probable cause. You got just so antagonistic and hostile about the case in confrontational Jeremy minds is appalled, I think, is unprecedented in the state for Asia. Did state authority to just basically through local police department under the like that. I never heard of happening mud speculates them. Maybe- and this is speculation
we MEG's was daunted at the idea of taking on a family with the resources to hire a team of expensive lawyers. Fire buncher, trust attorneys and make it much more complicated. Just go after the low hanging fruit and the thing is cleaned up, and I think that dynamic played into it in terms of an office and the leadership of the office at the time these decisions were being made and from what people told me he didn't want to take on more big, South Florida attorneys. That would represent only if they were charged. I think A combination of those those things he's played into not wanting to you to charge these people and there's one it's hard not to notice in this case, of all the suspects, it's the one, wealthy white guy, who still free
the Willie magazine says that has nothing to do with it. When you're looking at prosecuting somebody, you don't look at their financial status or are clearly had to look to the ever. Since you have to present Jeremy months is the first to admit he MEG's have history, makes actually fired months in two thousand sixteen after the two had a disagreement over a fifty year old, unsolved, triple murder and Tallahassee might says you one. To keep pursuing the case: MEG's as much as writing a book about the case on the government's time when escorted from the office and got on his computer are really my computer. The offices computer- I found the first three chapters of the book that he was not writing. It is computer and yet here's the thing must no longer had the state attorney's office. Neither is mags he's retired, with his turkey's on his farm
there's a new state attorney who was elected after MEG's retired and the lead prosecutor and the Key is still assistant prosecutor, Georgia, capital there's a scenario where Garcia and my one guilty and that's just the endless yeah if they won't provide any further information in this This lacks not to go back to the grand jury with what we have and try to seek and diamonds on anyone else. That would be the end of it crazy, be there found guilty and they did. This one day ass. It were reason they possibly you re unless you're right
They could see a committed, as I don't think it will come to that unsatisfactory conclusion. I believe that somehow some way everybody involved will get some justice but I can't exactly how that's gonna. I just feel like the truth. Has a way of coming out in this case, and probably not going to be an exception, beg Banda in sick Fredo. Garcia are due to go on trial in the summer of two thousand nineteen computers are well armed. I've got the phone calls the bank records. And in loose Rivera witness who can explain how the alleged murderer plot went down, but there are a few Obvious challenges for the prosecution first is Louis Rivera. Haiti's lawyers are gonna, painting is again later is unreliable. Rivera cannot keep his stories straight in a pre trial. Hearing Torah collapse when a a banner was lawyers started to poke holes in reverse testimony.
You will say one thing We were in the Nissan and he switches it around the other. Do you have to consider that he gave admits that he is the influence the entire time of cocaine. And that's all the two of them are doing the entire time that they are there and the state wants you to take as credible. Testimony that he happens to remember Do you want someone said on the phone when he is under the influence? Coerce suggest that Rivera lied to get himself a sweetheart plea deal and she says that's because he my very well have been the one who killed Denmark. How I see the evidence will probably showing that he is probably the one that pull the trigger, He knows that he needs to say that is that our steel is the one that did it, because they would have never got to deal with the person who put two bullets in Mr Markov
reverse Credibility- is the star. Witness is problem number one, the other problem for the prosecution? is Katy herself prosecutors clearly hoped she would cooperate. And help them to charge Charlie eight also, but she hasn't have any idea. Why they're talking I put my often their place I'll be seeing like a bird. So now I don't know, but it must something pretty heavy, still compliment, and cautiously optimistic and determined for the sake of the victims fan it is a long time to wait the way as a prosecutor at a long time, the waiver. You know, resolution of a case, but certainly the family has you know through hell. Waiting for this to get resolved in a fashion and satisfactory Denham witches Only that everyone It had a role and it is going to be held accountable, said the fear that night,
being realised, is needed. Updating to Denmark, House family rob eight Olsson says he wants the same thing. This is same thing, I've said from it from the very first moment this occurred is I would like? who is involved with killing, damn or a cow to have the appropriate punishment, whoever it is happening I think it's probably unlikely for that to happen. Five years after the murder of an Ex husband when the eight Olsen lives in Miami with her two sons. She still very close to her family. And although law enforcement have never accused of having anything to do with the murder she has endured quite a bit, screwed me with
with her on New year's Eve Day of two thousand a she stepped away. From watching your boys to take the call. She told us that she appreciated us reaching out, but with illegal stuff happening in the way the media had treated her in the past. She was sceptical. Talking to us would help. I think nobody wants to hear my story. She told us, I dont think people like me she says she has nothing to hide. She's done nothing wrong and when she has spoken public, we live when she went on their writing class podcast people Used her words against her. The truth is remember less and less as the days go on, she told us any bad feelings about people who remember that our divorce was contentious, but it's like angel. History to me, when we say tested in passing Did she turned over a new leaf? She wanted to make that was not accurate. Our lives are, very,
much impacted on a daily basis by what happened she said, she's focused on trying to raise her boys to be happy and joyful, kids, whether deep you're standing of who their father was her. Kids, it of victims and she's a bystander. When you said you'd think about whether she wanted to be recorded and we get back to us Missus John Loyal you, although I represent Nielson and though I wish it were trying to get in touch with her Ten minutes later, her lawyer called. Say she wouldn't be interviewed. She'd, be happy to speak to us after the trial. This time of year were all feeling the squeeze on our wallets, so we decide in the new year. We're going to tighten things up now. Hair color is
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asked generation. Why is the perfect way to dig into hundreds of cases Generation wise proved through unsolved murders, conspiracy theories and other mysteries on their weekly podcast stay to until the and for a pretty of generation? Why and don't forget to subscribe to generation? Why were ever your listening to this right now? it's been years since Rob Athos and has spoken with this little sister. I would certainly Wish things were different way, certainly really wish adsum. You know, siblings, We share a common story in a common background. I do miss her through certain things. I see that I knew she think it's funny and knew this is, is not available to me. You think about the game, the phone. When you see something funny and texting here,
No, maybe it's the benefit of hindsight, but looking back Robin her either say there were warning signs right from the start, even at the wedding filled strangers more like a lot of tension and you can even palpable you can feel the tension. In the two, because there have been other this leading up to this. There were some discord already. The wedding said was so beautiful. Do is like an he's bar mitzvah with you no lights in no, no fireworks, this proud because it was inside lasers. If that's what it felt like a more like a bar and they remember the kosher mix up really well. He had of Babby friend who was there was even closer from Harvard and apparently at some point. There was up matter of food where the meat was with the cheese and he lost there and he felt meeting cheese, Danny Historians and did he say something like you should never marry
I told you, you should never be marrying her only it listen. But for them the wedding also give an indication of just how controlling Wendy's parents could be wedding was it like. It was done us wedding when was in law school and she really didn't care. She apparently had once said the djinn. Just one get married on the beach had told rob that instead she was married in Very elaborate, orthodox wedding with. I think me eight or nine bridesmaids, and so this was the opposite of that. But all it details were really made by dawn and that her either has carried on right through the divorce. They were very in the marriage and they were definitely about than the divorce. It was really felt like it was they are divorce done an arm. Occasionally, San birthday cards to rob and hurried his children, but it's been years since I ve seen him in person further that interested in my kids. Unfortunately, because our untasted die
an Harvey, do see when these kids, all the time which is what they want it all along for the other grandparents Ruth Phil are cow. Few years have been won nightmare after another fit still wakes up, often in the middle of the night. Thinking about his son there? I wake up at three o clock in the morning thinking about taking them skiing or something or a moment of course, knew me so Syria golfing with two strangers, and what's what's the most natural thing you talked about? Mary have children, you have grandchildren, How do you say how much you say who do you tell there isn't a day that goal by in my life, this issue doesn't come up in one way or another worse thing in life, they think is to lose a child at any age then to lose two grandchildren, because
Ruth and fill haven't, seen Dan's, kids, their grandchildren since round. The time Katy Mag banner was arrested at arrest change, something and although Phelan Ruth had tried to work with Wendy to see the boys really tried, she suddenly stopped making that opportunity available and we continue to send present. Can we continue to do other things we even Our lawyer contact her lawyer and try to if there is opportunities to designate a meeting, There wasn't so that was maybe getting a really cutting off process, are the legal means available to grandparents and decide in Florida. At another thing we we missed the children, we want. Make sure They know how much that we love them when we think about them. All the time and how much of it russian that is in turn.
Of them not only losing their father, but losing You know I love. This is the biggest regret we. Dealing with a struggle which, as you know, Danny's death, as well and not a normal death, with a murder and you're dealing with within major major loss and disruption, Wendy had boys last names legally changed from Morocco to Edelson. She also remove the Hebrew middle name of our oldest son, the name she and dad had given him a birth weight. Now. If the bark alpha exists anywhere in the world, their name, were changed. Their will Absolutely no contact and the kids were very, very young. And therefore susceptible to being whatever so, we have no idea what applying in their lives. We cannot community,
eight with them. We all face time. We unscathed nothing. We send a gift to get a three word reply. Thank you the boys will enjoy it, whether they get the gift. Her do you think, was it from us, HU. The market family is do they know, lay Marco with honour. Tell us what Danny? What have we think anyone on it, then, turning over his grave router, I visit Danny frequently at the cemetery, and I have a lot of trouble going to the cemetery too, Tell him that we are not able to see the children. When sick, Fredo, Garcia and Katy Mag banner go to trial in June of two and nineteen Ruth and they will be in the courtroom. And they won't be the only ones watching closely sadness at the murder of a friend and a great great lords
your law, professor person and and anger that here we are more than four years later and the peace, who are really really behind the murder, whoever they might be, have not been brought to justice cures. Everything some Es anguished I was before, but I never forget him he's always be my heart and I think of him quite often we wouldn't be here. We wouldn't have our three children. We wouldn't have anything if it weren't for Dan really you gave us that he gave us each other and we often talk about, and we talk to friends about how this could possibly have
We will have come a long way when the people who organised this murder and the people who committed this murder are. Finally held to their proper account for what they have done, but there's not gonna ever be true justice in this case because he's gone. Zack and Abigail Schreyer for now no tests. David, LAD Ruth and fell Marco rob and hurry fatal send. All of these people are waiting for justice you know, like justice homes once said, you witnesses, maiden handle memories may say that circumstances never lie former prosecutor, Jeremy. Lots, and you don't want the stands out very strongly to me- and prosecutors, love evidence of consciousness of were basically somebody by thereby here. They show their guilty
As you will recall, the family members were cut. On video IRA Cafe talking about whacking. Undercover officer, of course needed no use. He was undercover, they thought that blackmail them. But time to make people don't after whack somebody for blackmail and you go to the police like them, our cows, arrogant, we'll be at the trial when it begins in June. If it begins, I guess because, well, if the insect. Fredo actually do know something about a larger conspiracy. They may still make a deal. I want whoever Ultimately, behind this to be brought to justice and not to have a dramatic trial that they walk away from. That means taking the time to make a really good case and problem that means they need testimony from the people who are currently indictment. Usually when someone is arrested and accused
a serious crime and other people were involved, they will and immediately start identifying those other people in the hope of getting some leniency from the prosecution now go ass, David LAD, Dan's Old, Harvard Buddy. If he could concocted possible explanation for why Rivera and Garcia would have killed. Denmark hell if they hadn't been told to do so by one of the eight since last thought about it. For a while, I perhaps one possibility who might be if that is somebody wanted to Korea, however, with the aid of sins and thought that they would want this outcome, but did tell the citizens that this was going to be done. Maybe that, one theory. Maybe I do know one thing for certain death: are called illegal. Scholar would have
lot to say about how justice is played out in the case of his own murder two thousand nine Dan CO wrote a book called privilege or punish criminal justice and the challenge of family ties. Like a lot of his legal writing, it's to dance for me to quote here, while pretty much all of it is, except for the eight words he put on the books, dedication page for Wendy, my everything, my World without end. Baby, I'm geared Gary's blood,
baby be Those who now from wondering this is the final episode of the first season of over my dead body, the story love, justice and money bogus actual interview episode next week and we will continue to provide update episodes on the case as it develops. So, please, click subscribe, interview episode will be out in a week, but he'd like to listen to it now, as well as your favorite wondering originals ad free since I have to wonder one plus
go to wondering dot com, slash plus its wondering dot com, slash p! O you ass. You find a link on the episode If you have a tip about a story about two people pushed to their limits, that could be the next season of over my dead body email us at tips at wonder, e dot com, that's tips at wonder: e dot com- and, if you'd like to help us spread. The word please give us a few five, star review and tell your friends to subscribe? were available on Apple podcast, Spotify, Pandora and every major listening, as well as on wondering dot com I ask you: You found someone as you personally that change your mind about what should happen. For sulphur prosecution purpose now you. Eventually, nobody tried to kill us about various prosecutors and avoid setting the law regardless of what
I really would be different if I've got a river other, but I don't think it was my family. Anyone outside maybe the family, that's a tough line, but I dont think maybe the assembly did. The soul is anybody else, over my dead body was written in reported by me, Matthew, share and Eric Benson, no reporting by SAM Turkey, in fact checking by Alex Car. Sound designed by judgment recorded. Our episodes Arcade one sixty studios, where engineer was Jimmy done so producers, Chris Siegel executive. Used by George Lavender Marshall, Louis and her Lopez for wondering how you doing at either I'm doing fine Justin. How are you
I'm doing great, we are the generation. Why and we ve been around quite awhile since two thousand twelve, we ve been doing true crime, murder, mysteries, conspiracies controversies, wrongful convictions, missing persons, cases, anything and everything under the sun. Here's what you can expect they didn't know, but they were one thousand feet or so from where these three Girls were, are being held captive when he brings these young Ladys back to his house, they would have chain brow the their neck and their stomachs and their beaten under the control of a psycho. He lied about everything. Now you can't trust anything he's too. I think this is anyone's worst nightmares. Women were killed in one place and then taken and dumped somewhere out that chaos that unpredictability made him so terrorizing strongest evidence they have. Is the eyewitness testimony of six. Oh boy, he placed his body under
the house? I think this is less of a story about a monster and more of a story about survival. Generation. Why look us up on Apple pie, ass, Spotify or your favorite podcast app and hit the subscribe.
Transcript generated on 2020-02-16.