Dr. Phil talks to one of the most important and influential judges in recent American history. Judge Rosemarie Aquilina was the first female JAG officer in the U.S. military justice system and the first female commencement speaker at Michigan State University. She presided over the first Zoom jury trial, and is a leading national advocate for victims’ rights, reforming gun safety laws, bail reform, and enacting tough bystander laws. She has presided over some of the biggest trials in the country, including the Larry Nasser sexual assault case and the biggest sexual assault case in the history of the University of Michigan. Bringing a powerful need to be heard and understood to her courtroom, Judge Aquilina is changing the way criminals are brought to justice and the way victims of powerful people are treated. https://www.drphilintheblanks.com/
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cause you let people speak whether everybody thinks they should have a voice or not, but it's a hard road to travel. For a woman to be outspoken, Larry NASH,
You send him to up to one hundred and seventy five years did you.
we consider that he wouldn't go to jail
the window blanks. A boy of I got an interesting yesterday.
This is judged Rosemarie Aquilina. Let me just introduce her for a while, then I'll talk to you in a second
as a judge in Michigan
she urged her law degree
Thomas him, coolly law school in nineteen. Eighty four
better bashers degree from Michigan State University and seventy nine so issues
doing this for a while. She served as a fifty fifty district court judge
for four years and then has been elected as a thirty. A circuit court judge in
I'm county in November
and she retired honourably from the Michigan Army National Guard. After twenty years of service, she was the first. The
oh Jack officer in Michigan Army National Guard also the most requested JAG officer of all time,
not by accident, we'll talk about that
The minute she served as administrative assistance to State Senator John F Kelly for ten years and
He actually hosted ass,
the family lawyer, which was
indicated show she is a published author,
as fictional novels, feel no evil triple cross killer and all round
I will talk about those in a minute to She'S- got a memoir coming out real soon called just watch me. That was not a title picked at random which will get into it.
well she's, currently an junk professor. At the time.
Curly law school,
or an Michigan State University School of law. So now,
let's say, is she
is more than a little busy so judge. Thank you
a really important part of the show
after Phil, and I took this opportunity to glum on tv and yet you to sit down and talk to us more about you and let people get to know you
better because people love it
when you're on, as you probably know, MA
of being on but more important. I love that you love people
an messaging and trying to fix the world
sell your show is just instrumental in change, and I am,
You asked me to be on that and on this podcast castle. Thank you. Will you speak right up? I love that you say what you think. You're very thought.
And what you do and the others
something in your court room that I really admire. That is you. Let people speak you, let people say what they want to thank
bothersome people- I guess, cause you. Let me
will speak whether everybody thinks they should have a voice or not. But you can't let everybody talk right. Well,
it's my belief that it's not my courtroom, a lot of judges believe it
their courtroom their way, no matter what I believe is the people's court and the people have a right voice.
In on whatever case affects them, and I give them all
all the time they need.
Learning what they have to say helps maybe a better judge, because it's that back story that makes the story that helps me me.
decision and I don't listen to the naysayers. I have to say I appreciate it.
You appreciate my voice because so many people dont want me to speak
and when I do put me down and I keep speaking up because no one puts me in a corner. No one tells me to shut up and stay quiet, but
the hard road to travel for a woman to be outspoken.
I know, that's true directly in the legal profession, and I want to talk about that some. If
people are wondering
do I know her
Probably most people know you from presiding over the
your Larry Nasser case. That's not,
the only thing you ve done of note in your career and I dont want
I cast you in that way, but if people are saying where do I know her from
presided over the Larry Nasser CASE and if you're trying to place his name, it he's the
doctor and I use that term loosely- who
so many of the gymnast? And I guess it's still on appeal, so you could say these been
Found to have abused
Oh that's under appeal, but the
U S olympic gymnast and a whole lot of other gymnast. You presided over that case. How long did last?
I allowed them to speak for seven days, he plaid
and then the sentencing took seven days because that many women came forward. We expect dead first about
twenty and that in turn to forty and ultimately, a hundred and fifty six sister survivors as I dubbed them spoke
hundred sixty nine spoke altogether
the number now is about five hundred and five people have come forward. Well, that's just emerging
we'll talk about in remit, but if you're trying to place the judge other than on our show
that's probably where you would know her from the most and I thought
I spent most of my professional career in the litigation arena,
As you know, I've been in front of me
Judges and you can shake a stick at and I thought
you did a masterful job. In that case, I am not saying that, because you're sitting here, I thought
it was even handed. I thought you let him speak. I thought you. Let people speak to him at the time.
And I said so publicly at the time- and this was before I had to pay.
Your meeting you, I said publicly
You did a masterful job in now.
the guiding the terrain of that case- and I thought you gave
everybody's their day in court,
the opportunity to speak. So will
talk more about that in a minute, but
your parents emigrated to the EU,
that's right to Detroit me up. Man
parents emigrated from Malta with their five children, my father was the oldest, and then they became.
Since my father then joined the? U S, army and served in the korean WAR and then went
to medical school and the g I been met. My mother, who was german, they lost everything through Hitler, took everything from my grandparents and
very, very poor, and my mother ended up being
governess in Spain and they met on a train injured.
real exchange phone numbers and a year later were married. I was conceived eleven months in two days later. My brother was conceived and, of course, my dad content study with two crying babe
So my brother and I emigrated with my mother to live in my grandparents in Detroit and we came over stateless because at that time
Germany only recognised the citizenship of the Father and the United States
it did not allow my father to transfer his citizenship because he had not yet been a citizen for ten years now on. That's changed.
but my brother and I are naturalised and we came over his stateless stamped across our baby pictures, woe but your father.
did naturalised. Eventually he did he
the citizen when you serve, but couldn't that passes citizenship on for ten years, at that
yeah, so he served in the Korean WAR and he went to
medical School in Germany. Right, yes and then, when he specialised, he came back to the United States and did a specialty there. He is your allergist,
you thought your grandparents were your mom and dad
They raised you, so people don't really think
about children as having a voice. I think, and when my mother would work downtown Detroit send the money back to my father. We live in my grandparents when my mother came,
after working I thought she was more like my sister rescuing me from my
parents, you know who migrate
been yelling at me. Don't do this! Don't do that whatever is little kids and I
get up every morning with my grandfather who worked at for it, it five six o clock and have some coffee and toast with him and my uncle, who was in the youngest child of the
where's was in high school, calling the mom and dad. So I
hold them, none new, none of which means grandmother,
grandfather Maltese, but I acquainted with mom and dad because they did everything for me so
five years later and I only saw my dad once a year
years later, my dad comes back and they put us in a car,
and they take us away and I felt kidnapped, because no one told me now still to this day
My family will tell me that I'm stupid that I didn't know and how could I think that my grandparents were my parents
But you know we have to talk to little kids because its third connotations of what they do for you every day that makes the word
But you know, when your five years old, you know
What's in front of you, you live moment to moment, and you know what you experience right. That said anonymous
form children learn what they live is just what you experience. That's what you know right now. They were my parents, so I
now? Look at it that I was blessed have two sets of parents, but let me
Tell you that feeling that you ve been kidnapped, since you were five makes you fight for everything,
and you said, that's why you ve, always
been interested in the back story. The people that come before you
You want to know their frame of reference, what they grew up with how they get
be? Who they are right? Not everybody has a mommy and daddy. Like you know, you are
not everybody can go to school. Not ever.
he understands the world around them or if they do it's from a cultural perspective or a street perspective,
or they were abused in that change their perspective. So is that back?
story that really enlightens me on how best to sentence them rehabilitate them and make sure that at the end of their journey with me, they our whole if they can be or maybe they need to be sent to prison. But it's the back story that makes the story and it's interesting that way,
So you take that into account. You listen to see who they are where they came from it as an explanation.
why they did what they did instead of just what they did right because often times I find
mental illness. They might be
drawing attic, but why are they a drug addict? It
maybe because they were assaulted or abused in some way and they want to shove it down. It also might be that it's an untreated mental illness. So if I can get them the right medication, the right doctors, then
guess what they are rehabilitated in. They don't use the cocaine or heroin are what whatever their using. We have to look the back story to find a solution that we're dealing with today,
What other takes a lot more time
to listen and figure out who they are and to do a real
sentencing study and know who's in front of you, but
when you do that. Are you
confident in the sense that you hand down yes,
and I also know works because I live in the community. Where I work and I have people come up,
me, no matter where I am and tell me, you save my son's life you saved my life, I didn't know, is going through that. How did you see it, and I know it works, and I
see the recidivism rate, at least of many of the people in front of me go down, and I don't care if I deal with one case for a week or ten cases in a day, if I'm not done with that case until I'm done with that case, the only thing that's in front of me is that one particular case-
I believe that is what judges are supposed to do. I know that's not always popular. I know that I get complaints,
I spend too much time on talking to people and I don't care if you don't have time to be a my courtroom,
Ray schedule or or leave I'm not going to leave in time Don until I have that information,
How long does it take to tackle a home project with Angie? You could cross it off. Your list before this add is over just tell us what you need indoor, outdoor repair or redesign, and we handle the rest. Sending a top pro could get it done. You don't have to lift a finger accepted tat. The screen click the mouth plus Andrey is free to use so bring us your next home project and we'll bring it home, download the app or go to Angie dot com. That's Angie, I doubt come to get started.
hey everybody, chicken, Robins Podcast, about a secret with Robin Mcgraw with famed forty eight laws of power. Author Robert Green, Robin Hood.
Robert are going to talk about seduction, finding your voice in a relationship and how to keep the spark alive in
fascinating conversation plus Robert
Those topics you have ever heard he discussed before about play,
clear of I've, gotta Seagrave Robin Withdrawn. Why your listing be sure to subscribe, follow and listen on Apple pie, gas, Spotify or how ever your listening there? You know. We think that the word: how can you think of light pig politics in business color, these large forces controlling the world up in a little touch of evil to it, and I have completely different conception of power.
Bring it down to the level of the individual, and I make the case that as
in being so, we were wired and our nature. We cannot stand
sensations of powerlessness.
you think of your daily life and those moments when you feel like you, have no ability to influence, or you know have any effect upon your children, your spouse, your colleagues,
your boss, that's the
miserable sensation of all you're, completely helpless against
These voices in the world, a life- let's be honest, could be ready.
difficult and harshly competitive out. There
power. Is the sensation? Did you have a degree of control that your world that you live and expand juvenile?
expand your influence over people
children are Robles other forces.
Does it bother? You too have to pass their
judgment in sentence on people day?
after day after day, because I know
you send a lot of people to prison. You send a lot of people to jail. You revolt, probations
Sometimes there people there
in the moment are.
Highly remorseful, they stand before you and cry.
and plead and bag, and all that you still have to
that hard decision to say now. You you did what you did
and you're gonna have to pay for it,
when you listen to the back story, when you listen to the victim, when you do your work, when you listen to defend it and you have all the pieces in Europe
You take the time. My decisions, don't bother me and oftentimes. The department of corrections will say this person must go to prison and, I will say, no
they might have thirty seven charges. But most of these are drug related. They ve never been sent to rehab. How is that possible? We failed, so I try.
and if they succeed or then they can go to prison, but we're dealing with human beings, and I try to make good decisions- and I sleep well at night because of that it's important
dealt with the situation today with women in prison and the fact that our
Penal system was never designed to
comedy women in prison and since nineteen nineteen, the women in prison population has increased seven hundred percent, it's still a minority of the overall.
Prison population but has gone up seven hundred percent since ninety ninety and
abuse of women in prison,
is undeniable sexual abuse that neglect live saw all of them.
Humanizing things that happened to women in prison is well documented and undeniable.
how do you square
with sending whim,
into a penal system,
that you know, is broken
and you know, is not going to be of a constructive destination for them. First rye trying not to send people the present, if I don't have to if I could rehabilitate, but sometimes I have to send them and what are usually do is in my orders. I take the time to send a message to the warden of this person. Is mental health? This person needs our grief counselling and send him some messages of what I think they ought to have. Now I don't run the prison they just have to listen to me, but when I get letters from prisoners saying I need this, they did this to me. I didn't do that to me. I will call the warden in their generally receptive. It is a huge problem in the next problem on the horizon.
transgender. What I am finding is that if you have a transgender person, they have no place for them, so that put them in solitary confinement, which is cruel and unusual punishment, and I recently had won in the jail. They put a man who was transitioning into woman halfway there and looked and talked like a woman, but wasn't yet fully a woman and they put her in
isolation, and when this woman came out of lock up the first thing, I said as we need to have a chat. What what's wrong? What was going on with you? I didn't look at the paperwork. I looked at the human being in front of me.
And this human being was bent over and very shy and withdrawn. And I thought I need to get this person some help, and she explained to me is that she's, transitioning and they've kept her in isolation for four months, and I said I am terribly sorry. I did not know
and I gave her a pr bond released her that day.
And she was so grateful and I call the sheriff and said: don't you ever if there's ever, anybody like that who you, who you don't have a place for you call me, we can put a gps tether on at county expanse and I will give them a pr
And you cannot do that and hidden on said well, our new jail will have a place, but we dont now that's in
SK usable. That's talking about some of these prisoners, just the fact
they have or don't have pudding.
Into a system that can accommodate them results in net.
gents or outright abuse that is cruel and unusual, its violation of the right to right so
the judgment is rendered in sentences imposed.
deficiencies of the system
cruel and unusual punishment dis by putting them in the system acts
whittling one of the things legislators could do and they're not doing, and taxpayers should rally in the streets. Is they closed
the low level mental health institutions-
fear, putting someone who is in need of mental health in the prison system.
it cost somewhere between thirty eight thousand and maybe fifty eight thousand. Depending on how much
they need what's goin on if they're in,
segregation, how much security and all of that, if we put them back into those institutions, if we open the
add up put them in a low level, security get them actually treated or going to spend. Maybe six to ten thousand,
we save lives, we treat people, we don't put them in dangerous situations, and we don't house,
in cruel and unusual punishment prisons.
Why isn't the legislature dealing with that? Why, as taxpayers, are we paying for these missteps to be inhumane against our constitution in the most powerful nation in the world?.
I will be very clear. I think people who break the law should be held accountable
Breaking law, but there is a difference between
accountability and abuse. The difference in making the punishment fit the crime and-
doing something that is so
proportionate to the crime and with women,
for example, we know what fifty sixty percent of the crimes are
violent there either
pretty crimes or drug crimes, and if you
the men, the system where their abuse neglected, raped wheel
However, the situation is put in solitary for extended periods of time with their pregnant.
And put in the system or get pregnant in the system and the other
shackled web, been labour, etc. These are issues that
are rampant in the system, and I think people are like. I don't think there particularly concern
about it because are not particularly aware of
what's going on and it's not something. That is a natural
compassion that people have because you're saying you know dvd.
Crime, you do the time, but what's the time right,
I think they are aware of how
if their own daughter, for example, com,
the crime and there's a well you ve gotta be accountable. I don't think this is what they would think is accountability right and in I'm,
many tough on crime, but I am also looking at the back story. Let me just give you an example: college girl, this pregnant shot
cliffs, something because she wants an east, a pretty Easter dress for her child verses college girl.
who is going to Hawaii or Florida Mexico for Spring break
and her mother buys wiser to bathing suits and she wants five, so she shoplift the other three to me.
Back story of each tells me a different scenario. The woman who cannot afford it and just feels horrible, like she's, a horrible Mancha, she can't provide the Easter dress
She really need some help financially and just to get her situated. The girl, who is
stealing just to steal, because she is a glutton
What she wants only in its disregard of all of us, she needs
Sometimes she needs retraining she needs.
we d service there's a lot of things she needs is to different pass. Those people are on and two different sentences for the same crime.
I did show recently on. It was
A lot about San Francisco Walgreens is closed
when you three stores in the Bay area enlarge
part because they say they are not
in that area. They ve raised the limit to nine hundred and fifty dollars anything knives.
dear below. Is a misdemeanor prompt, forty seven in California,
do anything at all. They give a citation misdemeanour.
some research says that they subsequently dismissed seventy percent of those citations. So there is basically no
consequence to allow these stores the said the awareness gettin cleaned,
on a regular basis and it's not
fifty per day it's nine. Fifty per s.
So they can go into target and get nine hundred and fifty to go to Walgreens to get nine hundred and fifty going to next door. So they can do ten thousand dollars a day of their industrious enough, and
one member, the audience say: I think it's. The fault of the corporations
not paying people enough so their basically
is going in and taking what's rightfully there's an I dont see
was a little dumbfounded. I'm not.
Lost four words often, but I was a little at a loss for words and in caliph
they have no bail.
So if you do get arrested, they just
you down and
process. She ran right back out,
how do you feel about their? I ain't there has to be said.
Accountability. If you steal, then you should be behind bars until you can make bail. If you cannot make bail
We do in Michigan, which I, like. I know some states are like California, in New York for New York just changed a little bit but
What we do is bond is to protect the public and to make sure your appear for court, and if you can't afford bond with
make it a debtors prison, but would give you a pr bond with conditions you have to check in every week. If you dont check and then you go back to jail and I think it works really,
and there is some accountability there and if you commit another crime, I dont have to give you another bond. So if you went and
money from along greens and then went to evolve a target while eurobond. Then
I'll give you mail at all. You can just sit there and tell your day comes up, and I think that
It is a good system because there's accountability and you can't do those repeat offences, there's no revolving door, because all that
on California and they have that New York, as it is a revolving door for criminals to have their day,
and for a law abiding citizens to pay the price over and over again
a lot of people are really upset with
legislation decision has gone through and we keeps
stories and another anecdotal and
probably a very low percentage of the cases, but we're seeing a lot of
worries where judges have
had offenders in front of them and put them
I call on the streets and then somebody with three four or five
I've de wise are back
on the street.
Have a head on collision drunk with a family, afore and kill,
and then the city county wherever
happens becomes outraged. How is
this happening. What's going on in the court system that we have
repeat offenders of.
violent crimes or do you eyes that are back
on the streets to re offend with violent crime.
what's wrong with the system that that's happening there, not looking at public safety
So when you have an agreement and then you have a problem, cause hearing or preacher,
well, whatever steps you taken depending on the type of crime and the state you're in there,
mastery of finding public safety. If this person's out can the public be safe,
You have someone who is appoint one seven point two three or I've had people over the point for three: should they?
out no they're functional alcoholic and it's not safe for them to be out. If they are out, they need to be honest, gram, teller. So we can see if there's outcome, we need to put them in treatment pending trial. We can't have them out their re, offending and reoffending. I have had a defendant who drove drunk killed. Someone was another judge lower than me, put them out on bond on killed someone else. I put him on a three million dollar dollar. They weren't happy about that. The case has been resolved now, and everyone thought that was too high, but how much is life worth? There has to be some safety
and accountability, and you have to look at each case separately. You can't you see here is the charge by what was he a tomorrow with another one that public safety,
Aren't we all in this for public safety? That's why I'm here safer public today and for my children tomorrow, you ve made, would
enablers and by standards should be prosecuted.
I feel the same way about the court system,
if somebody in a position to take a public threat off the street and instead they put them back
on the street they seem is culpable to me as the person
that stabs. The individual shoots, the individual
home in a domestic violence situation and Bates his wife to death or,
Users is children gets behind
he'll kill somebody. How do these
people stay on the bench, though
I don't know enough about judges.
Usually the ballot judges are the last. Some people don't vote for judges and they get name. I d
and then they so I know that guy in a vote for or their income, and they must be good about form the likelihood of Hugh coming in contact with anyone
elected official is going to be a judge. We all will come in front of a judge whether its probate judge, because someone's pass
when he guardianship, we have a traffic ticket and small claims corridor traffic corridor. What have you so? You should
learned about your judges and judges should be held accountable. So there
when they choose truly someone there are looking at and identifying on the record, so could be a value
to see if there are co conspirator or not. What are the live? Lethality factors? What's the crime,
do they have got in their home? Are their children in their home
can it be safe, will they come to court again at will?
men and other crime? We don't have a crystal ball, but there are lethality factors why
Aren't they being used wearing answered.
You send him to up two hundred and seventy five hours.
there was in european
tremendous threat veto.
go to jail. Did you ever consider that he would
go to jail. I knew that he would go to
prison. I didn't know until I sensed him how much he would do his play. Agreement was twenty four,
Two forty on the minimum
and its interest
because everyone said that I was so mean and so harsh, but
the singly enough math doesnt lie. Does it
now the federal judge sentencing to sixty years. He of course appealed trying to get twenty years because and stack them all at the same time, and he lost time that I sent
Some forty two hundred and seventy five, but I had seven charges. The county judge sentenced him forty two hundred and twenty five years. She had three charges divides.
Three in two hundred and forty, is what about eleven point something years so divide seven into forty and its what five point three years, I actually sentenced him. The least
but he didn't like was that when I thought the lethality factors in my courtroom, you know the sheer anguish was at such a high level. That was right,
you know. I would
the lash out at him, and then it would calm it right down to Green, because his behaviour was
awful. What was he doing? It was so awful
things that I saw were. These was just being flippant, yes, flippant laughing at the slaves and not paying attention. If you read the transcript, listen,
the sister survivors, many many times said you look at me.
I am not a number, I am a name, you look at me and he wasn't looking and for those people who think I was harsh. He was in the EU.
Witness chair rather than at council table, because I had met with three levels of
police and sad, I'm worried about
Safety and worried about a lot of safety issues and in the military
I'm trained and terrorism, sigh out,
and my core elements? It here's how it's going to be any plainclothesmen, any three levels of security, and if something
Happens, any him rushed out the backdoor through the jury door. That's. Why had him there
not for media circus, as he called a but first safety and
you can say what they want. I don't regret any thing he is dangerous. He still
even though I asked him several times. Does he want to withdraws plea- and he said Now- he's still calls it medical and that worries me. I hope he is getting treatment and rehabilitation
and what do I think he should be free now in the letter that he wrote me, he said it was not. It was not a criminal, it was medical, his treatments of these sister survivors, who, still, although he said it, was sexual when he plaid he still claims it was medical treatment. When
He wrote the letter to me and when he spoke to me, there's no acknowledgement that he actually abused anyone and that's frightening to me
so, he was still trying to claim that you were criminalizing medical practice. He asked anyone,
nothing wrong in its all my fault, I wanted a media circus. While I don't need a media circus. I've had lots of media cases. I didn't bring everybody there. He did. Was there a point in the proceedings where he came present and got real and stop the flippant denial avoidance behaviour. The only human, deeply painful reaction that I sign, I think the world saw was went
nay guns are spoke to him and she had known him since she was very young child and she had been too as worrying and there are all sorts of faintly events and she felt very close to him and when she testified in tears, she basically said my friend: what have you done was almost biblical. You could feel the pain and both of them he would bring throwing her, for she was seven. Yes, her impact statement was very moving.
clearly there was a reaction on his part to it. Yes, he cried is like those nowhere for him to run aware for him to hide she locked in on him like a laser beam. Yes, and that changed a lot of people. We saw that with the University of Michigan people, yes, John, for example, John VON yes, John Vine, when it met him, he sat I had to meet you. It was when I watch the ink impact statements that I just
to come forward and for a black man to come forward is so incredibly brave and he turn air like brother and sister now and mere he credits. What she's
how brave she was- and I echo that, did you say
play to him? I just signed your death warrant. I did, and when did you say that during the sentencing on the last day after I announce the four thousand two hundred and seventy five years, some people say that was really cruel. It's not something! I've ever said to anyone and why I said it to him. It really just came out. I think from my gut, because I wanted the sister survivors, whose show
in fully testified raw honestly with dignity. I wanted them to know they were safe because none of them felt safe. They felt word
She hadn't, acknowledged it and clearly was
going to appeal that they felt like he's not yet gone down for this right,
and he just he'd, never acknowledged, and even when he said, I'm leaving
I'm doing this for all of you. He was really doing it for him, making out a heck of a plea deal, and it was really all about him and all about him keeping and maintaining control.
and all of those sister survivors say now that he's never going to, even if you were free, you'd, never touch them again, because their wise now, with their fear, is the next girl, the next patient and is hard to live with that. You said to him: it was not treatment, it was not
But what you did it was not medical. You wanted that in the record absolutely and one in the court of Appeals and the Supreme Court when they reviewed what I said, and why did the sat incited to understand not only his bed
Behavior, but that it was clear in the record that it was sexual predatory,
and there is no understanding of it and it had nothing to do with medical because he kept asserting it was medical clearly was that
do you regret saying either one of the things? I don't regret anything I can tell you. I have had a lot of time to reflect and if you ask me what do I, if anything, regret, I think it's that I didn't send him to forensics for psychological evaluation.
because I am convinced more than ever that here,
is so disconnected with reality that maybe that's what I should have done. I did ask the lawyers, they all declined and said: no, don't send him and they
their case better than me. And if I had to do something again, I would have sent him, because that is the one thing that I dont know. If they had come back and said he has a narcissist personality disorder even noticed nodded, he assumed five categorization. They would have clearly said he had a malignant narcissistic personality and that he had an anti social personality and a nurse assisting personality.
Would that have changed anything you do. I don't think so, because ultimately the bottom line would have been that he understood what he was doing and that he could assist his attorneys it
trial and therefore he would be subject to be sentence now if they said something like he needs treatment before he could go to trial or if they would have said he
is not able to understand what he was doing. That would have been different. What you have just said, I dont think that would have changed my mind, but it may have lent itself to say. Maybe before we go to trial, he should be in some kind of treatment.
well, my trainers and clinical psychology nurse. Did a year's post doctor a fellowship in forensic psychology in one of the stand
I have often been asked when I was in practice when you talk
insanity, which is not an affirmative defence in most states and
report, but it is a mitigating factor in incensing, as you know, but
Questions are always your first off. Does he know
difference between right and wrong,
I think there is any question that he had such
with reality that you know the difference between right and wrong agreed and then further? Does he?
have the capacity to us.
first in his own defense. I sir
We don't think, there's any question whether he had the capacity
this in its own defence agreed ease
We did and you are,
these boiled down to making the decision
between the air.
this double impulse and the
pulse, not resisted and feel that
sometimes a thin line like in a crime of passion.
It can be an irresistible impulse where you just overwhelmed by
The emotion and circumstance and proximity to the situation, where the impulses just irresistible versus just
making the choice to not resist an impulse, and I look
all three of those did. He know their rights wrong. Clearly he did. Could he assisted his own defence? Clearly, he could
Was this an irresistible impulse it certain
was not because it stretched across so many people across so much time any had the
opportunity to liberate his choices and behaviors from.
Situation, a situation, a situation. You cannot tell me that
This was an irresistible impulse, a hundred and fifty sixty three
hundred five hundred a thousand times that he was just zombie down
couldn't resist the impulse bullshit right,
and you know I agree with that, and I appreciate you saying that is
when I go through, could I have done something different? I think that's the only sort of mist piece of it.
but I agree it would have come back that he was saying and could help
you appointed me, and I had done the evaluation,
No, what I would have found cuz I didn't evaluating, but I can t what would have been my short list. Those would be the first three key
questions I would have addressed, and I can tell you from
the situation. All three of those would have come back.
Saying that there
No reason that
you can explain away his conduct. Her behaviour, certainly not
the degree that he should not be subject to pin.
Before his conduct or that he should
in some kind of diverse,
he certainly wasn't. Psychotic. There is no indication of schizophrenia, sunken delusional disorder. There resist
telling you. I can't say that was certainly because-
I can't diagnose someone without actually interacting with him and seeing him, but this doesn't seem to me to even the close call- and I agree with that, but that's the only thing that I can think of
That really wasn't done. In that case, I think he's where he needs to be, and I hope is getting the helping getting better, but I dont think he should ever be free
and I don't think he should ever have the opportunity to be in the trusted position of treating someone.
And it's too bad a mini, obviously has said
July's knowledge were reality drove up on it.
crash seen on a highway. He could certainly render aid to somebody better than some other didn't have his training in pure. It would be appreciated in that circumstance, but
There's no way he should ever be in a room alone where the patient big eyes, he clearly
showed no signs of remorse. He got the only
signs of remorse that I saw or that no one believed him anymore and they D lost control. He behaved. They just don't
samples that I saw he behave like
a gas lighting, malignant narcissist disdain? The observations haven't met him, don't know em, maybe that's his defence mechanism who knows but behaviorally it appeared to me that any remorse he had was it. He got caught.
agreed then held to account I've seen a lot of jailhouse Christians, Christians, Chris Watts
Family- and I later we all suddenly
and God in prison. Yeah, that's pretty handy,
always laugh because I hear that line alive and you know I am certain that God lives in jail in prison,
because everyone finds a mare comes back on tourist could imprisoned yeah. Why didn't they find him outside? You know. I think people do believe
at the time he is like. It wished to column, Vauxhall.
knows you believe in God. I do deny this
am, I allow believe anything- and I we just get me out of here but
It seems to me that he's probably safer imprison. Then he is on the street with a lot of fathers.
On the street, knowing what he did to their daughters. I think he would be an arms way if he was walking around on the street and green.
Most weak on part to even in this day and age, I've had to fight through so many barriers. Because of a woman. You were the first,
female JAG officer, I was
And my paperwork sat and sat night. That was because I'm naturalised they had to do extra paper and it was in part- and I learned that my paper was completed and was sitting on a colonel staff
so I guess I could have been a woman who says all discrimination in all of them, but why? What I did
he's. My brains
Transcript generated on 2022-01-25.