Many people assume that willpower is the key to making meaningful changes in their lives. Decision-making and behavioral economics expert Dan Ariely suggests that’s not enough.
Ariely is the James B. Duke Professor of Psychology and Behavioral Economics at Duke University. He joins Dr. Phil on the next “Phil in the Blanks” podcast to give listeners a new perspective on life’s most challenging problems and the key to programming ourselves for success. https://www.drphilintheblanks.com/
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Have you eaten more than you think you should every day what percentage of Americans die too early because they ve made bad decisions, talk about a rationality for a little bit and how it affects our decision making and why revenge is so important. This is don't you feel a need to learn to fill in the bites Today I have a very fascinating guest on I'm talking about none other than Dan airily. James be do professor of psychology and behavioral economics. It Duke University, at a founding member of the centre for advanced hindsight, research and behavioral economics on the Irrational Ways P, behave described in really plain language. His immersive introduction to irrationality took place as he overcame injuries sustained an explosion
during a range of treatments in the burned department. He fight, The variety of irrational behaviors that immensely painful. Yet persistent. He began researching ways to better deliver, painful and unavoidable treatments to patients. We became engrossed with the idea that we Peter and predictably make the wrong decisions in many aspects of our life. And research could help change. Some of these patterns After using his knowledge of decision making and behavioral economics to convince his girlfriend Mary era, we realise that understanding decision making can help people in their daily lives. irrational years, predictably irrational the upside of your rationality. It's true about dishonesty the movie dishonesty and the car game irrational game here,
to describe is research, findings and non academic term, so that more people will discover the excitement of behavioral economics and you, some of the insights to enrich their own lives, there are you well very, very mix of its Maison period for social science, tough period for humanity, and so it's it's a very, very mixed period. I feel incredibly useful. and also incredibly frustrated understand exactly what you mean, because I share your feelings: a hundred percent facing the same issues here- and I understand that now you're in Israel, correct, yes, I've been, I got to Israel in early March to help them with some of the aspects of the current crisis. I was here for almost half year than I went back to the state and I just came back
ok great well, tell me- and I want- is for arm viewers and listeners, because I am very excited- to you, because I am a huge fan- have been for a long time is Marty. Grain Burg probably told you so having a chance to sit down and talk shop with you as a real tree, for me and I wanted to be for the viewers as well so Let me start by asking you introduce yourself and how you do introduce yourself. How do you describe yourself to pee bull that are now in the field and dont really understand. Ecology and behavioral economics, so introduce yourself and how you tell people who you are and what you do. So if people see us then the first thing I would say is that you probably see that they have half beards and it's not because I lost
bet joining the Euro badly. I was badly burned about seventy percent of my body I'm putting the right side of my face. So I have half a beer, but it's not by choice. It's just the way the explosion happened and, and this this a history of of being a burn patient for for three years. It was really my introduction into the field of social science and behavioral economics, and you know it when you are when you are patient and in the bed
time is experiencing so much pain? You, you observe lots of things about the world that you don't like. In my case, the worse was the question of bandage removal. So imagine it that, like me, is, seventy percent of your body was burnt and somebody had to take the bandages off. What is the right way to do it? Do you want them to rip off the bandages quickly or take them off slowly, and it turns out that my nurse Doctors thought that the right approach was to rip the bandages quickly thereabout judgment or right. That's right, that's what they ve been taught and that's what they thought. That was what the intuition was, and I I didn't like that approach. You can imagine they try to argue with them, and my first study when I left the hospital and started university was really about this question of how'd. You remove bandages from burn patient slowly off
asked what what creates worse in better and better, more and less paint, and it turns out nurses were wrong? The nurses thought that you wanted to minimize time rip the bandages of quickly as possible. Take maybe only forty five minutes and get it over with it turns out. They were wrong that when we take an experience- and we make it twice as long- we don't make it twice as painful, but when we play with intensity
then we make it much worse and for me, that's the essence of behavioral economics, because our intuition was their assumption, was duration in intensity were equal excessive and you can just multiply the two. Let's, let's finish the duration, but but the essence for me of behavioral economics is really questioning our assumptions about day to day life. You know every almost every action we make is based in some assumption and behaviour. Economics. Basically question: this assumption. Is this right? Is this the way to maximize their happiness? Is this the way to get the most out of life? Is this the way to negotiate with people? Is this the way to get people to help you out here to motivate people so that for me, the Essen
is what really drives us in where our assumptions about what drives us a deafening, a reality and that's what I really want to talk about. You really get at the heart of this in such creative ways and I've been excel. you talk about this because the rationality and irrationality of decision making Is so outcome determinative in people's everyday lives, its outcome, ready in what have for large, where they shop what they buy. It's also outcome determinative in terms, their lives what the sum total of their lives are and have said to people that follow me many times that since our twelve years old, I have been fascinated with why people do what they do and don't do what they don't do and have always said, if you understand why people do it do and I'll do what they don't do you have a huge edge in law.
If in terms of managing your own life and getting it People to do the things that you would want motivate them to do you really brow sit down and get to the heart of it, and I believe that most People think they make decisions when in fact they having decisions made for them by the advertising machine, the marketing machine people that my forms- and I really want to get into that and talk about it because you ve done such a creative job. breaking down, so people understand it at all. Maybe People say what do you do that? Well, just because its way, it's always been done talking he'll do something twice and say. This is the way we ve always done it. You ve studied twice. What are you talking about, but they data to a comfort zone because they ve done something once twice. three times, and they have
idea. Why is just ass just the way we ve always done? Why do we accept that? Yes, so saying? If basically, can a fake capture? They think that the basic lesson of social sons and the basic lesson of social science is that when we make decisions, we think they come from us, but they often they come from the environment and, to think to understand is that environment is not really designed to help us make better decisions. So imagine is a metaphor. Person walking down the street. Every coffee shop wants them to buy coffee and a donut every up on their phone wants them to spend time on that up, right now grown. So we we are walking around and other things in our environment once our time, our money in our attention and who is there fight for our long term wishes. Basically nobody. You know if you asked, if you ask the question of who cares about the long term
well being at maybe your significant other, maybe if you believe in the government who said the government, but but the reality is that most of life we are surrounded by other entities, control the environment and therefore change our decisions so think about something very simple: if you go to the supermarket and maybe you prepare and you bring a shopping list and that's your plan of action, but the supermarket also as a plan and their plan, is different than yours endless, what they control the environment. They decide what it I level
they decide what at the end of dial and because of that, we end up making their decisions more often than we, then we would like so in, and you also mentioned this idea that it's not just about scientists about our personalized in one of my hope is that we would all become scientists to foreign life's right through all the architects of our homes, of our kitchens afar desks. What are the things that we could do to change the environment to get better outcomes, so so the design of the environment is is crucially, is crucially important and you know you can't even think about a refrigerator. So actually can I ask you a few a few personal questions, you better go
ok in the last month, have you eaten more than you think you should every day, I'm totally transparent automatically for you all now. Have you Have you slept less than you think you should every night? Have you in the last month? Have you texted, while driving
that I dont do because I have a hard enough time as it is, and you know we can talk about taking medications. We can talk about washing hands. Every time you lived a bathroom, we can talk about taking medications regularly, having safe sex all of those things, and the reality is that when we look at those, we should all admit that we feel a lot. We fell a lot, and there was this very, very said, study that asked the question of how many people, what percentage of Americans die too early, because they ve made bad decisions and, in the results, show that these number increasing all the time about two hundred years ago it was less than ten percent. Now it's more than forty percent. Well, what why? Because now we can because decisions that right and in the question is why are we?
coming dumber. The answer is no. What is happening is that the environment is becoming better attempting. Us thinking up, think about doughnuts does not arise we're getting better and in what they mean by getting better, is not a they're getting healthier they're getting more tempting road. Facebook is becoming better. Our phones are becoming better attempting us cigarettes texting while driving. The reality is that the economy around us is an economy of temptation and we sail- and we said a lot with one of the things that I have tried to communicate to people across time and I'd like you to comment on this. I've said that the reason diets fail, for example, is that we'll power is a myth that its fuelled by emotion and emotions are fickle so January first we make that new year's resolution. I we're gonna lose twenty pounds, we're going to get out there and
all of these things, and so we get in Para jargon shoes. We put him on the front, porch the damn things just well, jog you get nevertheless, everywhere there still just sitting There- and I say, it's not willpower. You have two programme, your environment, to support your goal, you don't want to eat too much if you don't want to eat the wrong foods than clean up your environment set you environment up to support you when you don't feel like doing it. It's easy to do it when you're all pumped up the hard time to do it is when you are emotionally up for that's when you major environment programme to support you. That's so site, I'm with you, but so look we'll power is amazing for the people who have it
I had the opportunity to meet the Dalai Lama and he has lots of ideas about willpower, and I asked him to give me some of his monks for experiments. He wouldn't so I don't know how much will power they have, but if we think about debt level of willpower, I think these can do lots of things. But if you talk about regular people like us, we just don't have that level of willpower and we can't count that that's what I say to people assume? That's not you will
the willpower of those guys in the valley silence in the monks and their commitment, assumed. That's, not you. It's working in New York or Dallas and in the busy day were soon that's not you so programme, your varmint yes end and that's that that's really kind of dead. The main lesson is that it's very hard to change people and its relatively easy to change the environment, and now now willpower is important I'll up out of Kelly, something that we just learned, but Noise if you walk up every morning, five miles away from home with your gym shorts and shoes you'll at least walk home right. There's, no, there's no question about it. If you made an appointment to meet a friend to go for a run, you'll show up and go for a run it it's those two that we need to architecture, but I'll tell you something. We just learned about willpower that I think is incredibly important.
So we need to study on a large group of people with diabetes, and we asked a question of what helps in some. People are better managing their diabetes, the raven, see in some people are worse at this and we asked a question differentiate. The people who are better at this from the people who are worsening- and you could say, is it they understand their babies? Nor is it that they understand the side effects. No, is that then the stand, how to measure their blood glucose level. No is it that are more motivated, nor is it will power. No. The only thing we found is what we call breakdowns in break point is the point in life: will you just fed up? You know he's tough, you you fight with your kids in the morning and try to get them to school, and then somebody tempts you with a cookie and then bosses something and then does Youtube and in life kind of the things that community committed and sometimes we just
and when was fed up. What's the easiest cheapest way to get some happiness, unhealthy food right and we found it. That's the cycle of diabetes and in what I think it means is that self control is not them the mechanism for good behaviour, as you said, but it is a danger for bad behaviour because of the failure of self control and in these break points in the time that people are just just a miserable and look for quick happiness. Those are the things that feed diabetes and invite wait reaching these break points is faster for people who have diabetes, because we all have a busy life, and we all stress, but if you're have a regular life plus Babies, you life is extra, stressful, must wake up in the morning and measure and run and measure, and you have to eat certain things. Don't it's up to the management of
it's just much higher? So you? U quicker to get to that level of frustration where you want something. So we have to worry about the failures of self control, because this is you can dive a whole week and destroyed in one evening observer talk about drew and Jonathan Scott, also known as the property brothers, not only they have the number one home design show on tv. But now you can play their hit mobile game property brothers, home design, wherein patients can actually be fun. Relaxing join millions of others who were joining beating the games, puzzles earning coins and helping drew and Jonathan Scott Design. All types of dream spaces discover oh, you ve ever worn to know about the twins with funny childhood stories and good old fashioned. Brother versus brother Annex learn real designed to Europe's as you play through each episode. This the fund game. I, like that,
Can travel locations around the world and create one of a kind designs download proper brothers, home design, the number one home design puzzle game just go to apple or Google's store and search for property, brothers and download property brothers home design for free today,. What I found in working with people on way control is that they do most of the damage with a very small group of foods in a very concentrated period of time, during their weak, they have impulse foods and bow terrible times and if you can get them away from those foods and give them competing habit for those vulnerable times. Some. They're doing this incompatible with ingesting these foods during those vulnerable times that You can really help them, so stay in themselves, but you ve got
recognize winner, your vulnerable times, and what are your most vulnerable foods and being a tight to diabetic. I've learned that across time, but I think what I've had the most fascination with is how you get people to recognise when they're not making these decisions for themselves when they are being made for them. Advertising for example, when Look at it, I by Mcdonald's or some of the fast food franchises that are out there. It's Interesting to me how little of the time during the ad they spend showing their food at, much of the time during the add their showing acceptance happiness togetherness joy. Body being included in these restaurants. I've never seen one that look like the one on television, but everybody There is happy there together, their selling joy happy Togetherness,
food is almost added on to the end. they want you to feel good about the product and that cells the product and I dont think people realise that their emotional strings were being pulled to get them to buy the price it's not just the meat, cheese and bread that their selling the China and India in on the part of it is that is, can affair. Worrisome is that we imagine that you have two paths to convey. and people to do something. One is based and reason and logic, and these based on emotion and then you see, which one is the easiest of the two, and it turns The motion is easier to create. So what we do is we week we take that path and we try to convey.
People with emotions about everything from you know what hamburgers to politics. Just because it's easier, it's not what you would want people to do, but it's, but it's easier to do, and the other thing that that you started with is the fact that we don't see it and that's a fascinating thing right to you, you go to and you don't realize how the organization of the food is going to get you to over it. You look at the refrigerator and you don't understand how that will change what you do. The reality is that for most decisions, were an auto pilot and then for many other decisions. Defaults are incredibly important So we feel that we make decisions, but the reality is that the choice architecture around us makes many of those decisions for us
but we are so good and telling US stories, was so good and telling us of stories that we we tell them so quickly, and then we could convince ourselves that we made that decision. So you go to you got by tv and they show you three tvs and the show you a huge one, large one. slightly smaller one in you, choose the Middle One, because this often what we do is we choose the compromise and you don't understand that if they showed you three other television, you would you choose the Middle one as well, but right you chose it. You said this was my choice: we're very, very good and acting based. Indians I meant, but then convincing ourselves between made the choice. Our lish target that default. I really want people to understand what you discovered about this, because you ve discovered that when it it's too a complex decision. Most
people Really will, rather than deal with the conflict, complexity. They will default to what their being structured and finally into a predator. and decision that the architect? Why? What's them to make give us some exam. Because of that, if you will yes a first of all kind of, say kind of in general, how we look at life. So when I, when I look at it life and I try to make people make better decisions, I first look at friction and then I took it.
evasion, so I say: merging the changing behaviour is like sending a rocket to space. The first thing we want to do is to make the rocket is aerodynamic as possible, so it has the least resistance possible and then the other thing you want to do is you want to add more fuel. You want to make it easier to make behaving more powerful, ok, so friction in fuel make the desired behaviour easy, and then you want to add more motivation, and in default is one of the ways to do it.
So so I'll. Give you I'll give an example from from a study we did with the an online pharmacies great this alone. Pharmacy people signed up, and indeed were they started by buying branded medications, expenses, bright, expensive, brother medication. Let's say it was twenty dollars, its varied, but but the average was going on and they tried to switch people from branded medication to generics. So they rode pillar letter, and they said please, please please switch to generics, you will save money, we will save money. The world will be a better place, it will all you five dollars a month and they send people those letters and almost nobody switched less than three percent. so then they said. Ok, let's go all out and they tried something more extreme and they send people a letter and they said aren, your medication is twenty dollars in branded. If you which to generics it'll be
before holier, free for all, you amazing, free for a whole year and they expected lots of people to sign up. Only ten percent of the people say rude and that boy day came to my office and they said you know, what's going on and enduring and they came to complain is that I wrote a couple of papers in the lure of free. Papers are show that when you reduce the price of chocolate, say from zero dollars and thirteen cents to zero dollars and one cents people by little bit more. but when you go to zero people get really excited. So they said. Look you wrote this a person free, we work impressed, we tried free in all we got. Ten percent is enough to worry about. were expecting more what's going on and I told them. Maybe it's friction. Maybe it's friction. They said. What do you mean? I said think about what's happening to your custom They have one option of doing nothing and stay with branded and they ve another option of doing something.
Move to generic, but it also involves an action. So this is what, the confounded designed to things are happening. At the same time, it is branded versus generic but it's also doing something versus doing nothing. I said which one is it? Is it doing something of doing nothing was branded versus generic right? Do people really love Brandon Other people just really hate returning letters. So the first proposal ice, I told them. I said: let reversed the default. Let send people the medication in three months in tell them Next time were reversing, what's with switching your medication next time you going to get the generics, no need to worry, don't do anything you'll get your if you wanted, We'd branded return the letter that will be to switch the default right. You getting generics next time, so It turns out that illegal, it's evasion, discourage medications like decent people.
What the lawyers allowed us to do was to do what we call a forced choice. send people a letter and say you can choose when you return this letter brand twenty dollars, twenty dollars a generic advice, but if you dont returned the letter you will not get your medication will be forced to stop you delivery, So you see the original design. People could do nothing now they can't do nothing. They have to do something. And more than eighty percent of the people switched. So what does it mean? Does it mean that people like Generic branded it means of people hate returning letters in Rice hall equation. The real issue was the day resistant to two to returning the letter. Now, it's not because people are stupid or lazy. It's because people are. The reality, is that with the internet revolution we all became
much more busy right. They used to be a bank. You wanted the bank teller, they did fix, used to go to book a vacation. Into a travel agent in half an hour, you had the hotel in the car in the flight. Now we, to do everything ourselves and everything takes longer and people are incredibly busying stress for time. So what happened is that the deal fault is becoming more and more powerful because we're stressful time we don't have the energy to deal with anything. It seems like a reasonable suggestion we just accepted. So that means you know that when other people give us offers We need to think about the faults, but also when we set their own lives. We need to think about what default we want to have because defaults or in our lives much more than we are aware of right everything is set up for us and programming the environment. You talked about going, the store
people don't realize it something's in an I. It has ex exposure. If something's is an end cap, it has five or ten ex exposure you go to Walmart and they have power alley which runs per dickie color to the Isles, and you have to cross it to get to the check out, stand and that's go if you can get your product in power Alley your site go up exponentially. everybody in the store has to walk past it. I've had my books and power Alley, many any times, and it makes all difference in the world, but that's programming. Yet your people didn't, go there seeking it out, but they can't get around it and sure enough. They wind up taking at home and end its its it's everywhere. As you said so in all I'm sure your life, like mine, is full of zoo meetings. Oh yeah
we things are in our who decided that they need to be in our lot. Why not forty three minutes- and I didn't have time to go to the bathroom before meetings- do something but, but you know when you start thinking about it, this way, it's really bizarre, like you not, but by the way, the whole division of dated twenty four hours. We could have divided into thirty why twenty fourth you're right, but but we decided we accepted, we make meetings that are an hour or half an hour in and by the way, it's the software that is making it so easy to do it this way. So we accept lots of default. We don't we don't think very deeply on them and in our life follows from from there
I'll tell you one of my said- is not satisfactory, no story but be in I'm I'm right now on my mother's house in Israel, but when I'm in my office, a duke I have this desperate goes up and down electronically with no problem is not a lot of work is pushing a button. It goes up and up what I discovered is effaced shop in the morning and the desk is at the top position. I stand and I worked for an hour to stand. If I know many to develop position, I sit it never goes up, but for some reason, when they come in the morning, I dont have there
Did you press the button super Rockets? So what I do is I pressed the night before right. I basically prepare my environment for the next four the next day, but its those kind of things you have you ever wondered. How can it be that all restaurants know exactly how much food we want to eat? We basically finished before the nor plate or even when we pile Sweden, we finish it. We don't really think that the deeply about what's in front of us and in by the way it just because we're busy we have other things to do so. There's lots of stuff. We don't focus on and we end up, playing the game. It was designed for us by our environment. If I would ask you to name a nine letter, coffee brand. How fast could you do it? What about this new movie. That starts with an l and ends with a p trivia puzzle, for
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and useless, does now Angie and getting here to do less done just got easier between back to school and with the holidays around the corner. It can feel like there's no time to tackle home projects, whether you need help with emergency repairs or major upgrades. Angie matches you with top logo prowess who can get the job done right. Browser views, see up front pricing and instantly fog, hundreds of projects save time for what matters most book, your next project at anti dot com, it's a Angie, I dot, com about irrationality. You talk, I think, in a very interesting way about how people and it was true with your nurses they failed to test their assumption and intuitions in life- and it can led to some really bad outcome. If we just take something face value assume our intuition is correct. We are unwilling to test our assumptions and intuitions
if some of those are irrational. There can really create problems for us, and other people talk about irrationality for a little bit and how it affects our decision making, and why revenge is so important, so so maybe their day the central reason why we are irrational. His emotions right rationality is about making decisions, considering all options thinking long term right there, so so that they stand and kind of question is to say. Imagine I gave you a choice. I would say that the fill in two years of give you a choice between an apple cake and nursery chocolate cake will give a chocolate cake end and an apple which one would you take, and when people say in two years,
I'll take the apple right, I'll, be I'll, be I'll, make the healthy choice, and did I put the two of them in front of you, chocolate cake, oozing smell, you know, partially melting and the apple all of a sudden. The apple doesn't look, as is good. Look nearest good does because you idiot gratification, we grant affection and that ended. Basically, it kills our russian out right. You could say I know that apples are better than chocolate cake, but at the moment it doesn't seem like that. So emotions are one thing that derails us, like you know. You say I'm not going to tax and drive and then your phone vibrates and you become a slightly different person slightly more curious and and things go, sets on another type and of course the many- but I ll just give you two examples. Another type is money man
is just something that we not natural inclined to understand money so consider. Consider the following example: you going to buy pen the pennies fifteen dollars and you about the check out in the cashier was very nice person says: look, you have a really nice while a face I have to tell you this assist, the store to us. Only four blocks down Britain there are selling the same pen instead of officials dollars for seven dollars. If you want walk to that, other states only four blocks away beautiful day. If you If you want to save those, eight dollars go for it and you asked if you look at this decision. Most people walk for blocks to save eight dollars. In this case case number two you buying a jacket an expensive jacket, it's one thousand and fifteen dollars, as you check out their cells. Businesses, you know This is sale or sister stores, only four blocks away.
Setting the same exact jacket instead of one thousand and fifteen for In thousand and seven, it's only four blocks down the street. If you want to go ahead and get it now, people I'm not going now rationally. The question is: is it while for you to walk for blocks to save eight dollars. The answer is yes, I know, but it shouldn't matter. What's the size of the purchase, your bank account doesn't care where these eight dollars come from, but we make decisions in a relatively so this is for simple, why, if you buy, The car industry, person says for only five hundred dollars more, you can increase the quality of your stereo. You say only five hundred dollars. What the bargain you went to biased area for home. We will spend five hundred dollars right on the stereo or this is why we feel differently using cashed in using credit cards.
All kinds of other things are so so emotional one example and then having our psychological. Our thinking mechanism not suit the environment. It we ve developed like money, is another one, but but they do to mention something that we often use the term irrational in it in a pejorative way that its bad, it's true Many cases its bad, but not always love, is irrational. our generosity to each other. If you go to a city and you go to a restaurant and you'll never go there back. You shouldn't Tipp, rationally speaking of course, but we're not deaf to fill. A few came to my house for dinner. Here is what you should do. If you rush, you should come and you can say Dan
thank you very much for inviting me for dinner, I was going to spend forty dollars and a bottle of wine, but I don't know what one you like red: why new world old world? California, friends, so he is forty dollars Here's what you don't go ahead and by yourself the best why they can with forty dollars. Now, that's every economies will tell you to do because it will maximize the value of money right. I know what why they want in you: don't how either You giving me forty dollars is not going to improve our friendship in any way now. All of that is irrational, but in a good way So there's some irrationalities that are derailing us completely, show a lack of self control. Emotions. Confusion about money
but just some irrationalities, like investing in friendship in love and poetry, then, in voting in giving tips to people and gifts that our irrational in there in the form of economic sense. But it's what makes us human, special. We'll talk about this taking example. You're talking about about tipping someone if you're never going, to that restaurant again, you're not forming a relationship with this person in an ongoing fashion. I travel aloud. I go places to do a new story. That's really off the beaten path and never go back there, yet it might be a small town in Georgia Illinois I'm going To do the news story, chance of returning. There is very low and I will a waiter. Because of how I feel about myself it to do with myself esteem, my self worth
Some of the rationale for me is have two sons that. were young at one time working in these roles. Things like that. I think, if I had it well that was working in this. I would hope someone would be kind to them, so I'm kind this person and hopes that it will multiply and carry. Fourth, I feel better. myself. If I M kind other people. So it's not financially rational, but in time of self esteem and my own peace of mind. It's driven emotionally! That's! So it's not rational, but it's good. So so, for example, when you described that you are thinking about your your sons in their role that empathy and any know, each of us dependent the experience we we had in our lives some things, we have more empathy for
some things we have less running and if you and if you ve, walked in somebody's shoes or seen something you ever more empathy so the two years ago I went to to be away too in the restaurant for a few days just to see what it feels like an I've increase. Tipping since that right, you understand the other side in a better way. Now it's not rational. It's not like the rational thing would be. What do I get from it like, but so anyway, so so there's lots of irrationalities that they would like to fix, but some of them like human generosity, the fact that we care about each other our tendency to trust each other. All of that is is it just is just wonderful. So we have to kind of heavy balance.
of what is beautiful about humanity and our european and the fact that we spend time on poetry and arts- and we trust other people and we and we're generous and- of those things we want to increase and then there's some mistakes that we want to decrease rope. I love my masters. Thesis was. Progeny and moral judgment I was studying, obviously whether there is a difference between males and females with regard to moral judgment, and so, as a result I did massive lit review on moral judgment and the this was probably before you were born I saw very clearly that, with regard to cheating. Stealing people found it repugnant to cheat. The IRS. Cheat an insurance company steel
thing from a big store. Then they were to go down to the corner yard sale in their neighbourhood and steal. Something from Missis Bacon who lived on the corner now? Why is that? Ok and it's not in its not just her, but its it seeing the actions up As you know, I've done a lot of research on on these honesty. For about twenty years. I a pretty good segue way into your honesty were beside it. Yes, it was luckily so so here is that the key is one basic way in which we test dishonesty we give people has succeeded, die, irregular die and we say: please talk to die in depending on what it comes up on, will pay you if it comes and six you'll get six dollars, five for four and so on, but but you can get paid basically topside or the bottom pot
about them, you decide, but don't tell us so imagine I give you the die. I say decide double bottom. You decided yes, keep it in your mind, don't tell me they now role to die in people rolled a die, That's. It came with five on the bottom into the top and now of a great. What did you picked up a bottle now? If you picked bottom, you say the truth bottom and you get five dollars five and five. If you picked up, you have a dilemma: do you say the truth top and get only two dollars? Are they say? No, I thought about the bottom. You lie in you, you get extra money and we get people to play twenty times
and what we find is that people are extra lucky, not extra, lucky that their line right. You would expect- and fifty percent of the time to pick the high sounding peeped through two percent, the lowest side. But there are excellent. They get correct the high side, thirteen times out of twenty M, and now the question is: what influences? When do people cheat Morn when the people cheat less and into the air? It ends up? Being a story about rationalization- and this is exactly what you said- is well its end up a story about, can we tell a story of how we can both cheat and feel good about ourselves. So give an example. This was the funniest study I did. It was with a different paradigm, used to own the vending machine for experiments and in this experiment. I set up the vending machine on the outside this episode is: brought, you buy fender football is back and the best bet you can make
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So you have, you would put money in the vending machine. You would press the button and you will get all your money back, because everything is more than zero. Plus you get the candy and hid the big sign that says: if something is wrong with this machine. Please call these number, and this was myself, for number so that I could see how many people have done so, questionable youth for Europe to feel what percentage of people called. oh baby, I'm guessing zero, absolutely package zero percent, but using more difficult question. How many candy People take as I zero, because, based on your other research, they had to do something. There friction. Well, they Ah with one they started one right, they came to buy, so they they found out. They got one candy and they got the money back now. The question is that they continue.
yeah? Do they have to the machine that sell? So basically, what happened is that the majority took three or four really took five. Nobody took five wine and- and I think it's because people said to themselves like three or you can justify. You can say. I remember another vending machine that took my money and then give me a candy this vending machine must be a close relative of tat of that the vending machine and I'm really just arranging my vending cholera in this process and not really stealing, if you take ten that that feels really bad, so what happened with will learn in is that we keep a little bit up. The level that we can justify now, if we satan even organization, we justify more
say, everybody else is doing it. We can justify more, so justification ends up being the mechanism that allows us to cheat and feel what about ourselves? So it's the IRS or insurance company, which they consider adversarial, this is the enemy of gear, even I'm not making something I'm getting money back. That has been done for me there justifying it like this evening, the playing field except next week on part two of what controls your decisions may shock you control is so important for resilience in coughing has created lots of Laos Control, it's kind of grace We don't decide if we can leave home or not if I will go to school or not if our job- the open and not so signed gained some control. I think they will import
exercise for these things.
Transcript generated on 2021-10-06.