The President lashed out at multiple politicians and media figures while visiting mass shooting victims in Dayton and El Paso, Democrats in Congress make a renewed push for gun safety, and a number of House Republicans are heading for the exits before 2020. Then the New Yorker’s Jane Mayer talks to Dan about Fox News.
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Dance conversation with the New Yorkers Jane Mayer, about America's Cancer Fox NEWS
but first we're going to talk about the president's big day of national healing the
the politics of gun reform, and what a recent wave of Havas retirements tells us about. Two thousand and twenty few quick husky
notes on a packed episode of pod save the world. This week, Tom invent talked about right wing domestic terrorists with former counterterrorism director Nick Rest,
also cover the protests in Hong Kong, what's happening with Indian Kashmir, and why
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All right, let's get to the news
a few days after mass shooting and the worst terrorist attack against the latino community in modern american history, Donald Trump spent
Wednesday lashing out at the following people between visits with the victims and their families in Dayton, oh in El Paso, Tx
Beto O'Rourke Joe Biden, shared Brown Dayton Mayor Nan, wait Whaley Elizabeth Warren
Bernie Sanders walking Castro who, in Castro the Democrats Fox NEWS, a Shep Smith, CNN and the new
briefly ran a headline on Monday. That said, Trump urges.
A time story, also reported that when Trump's campaign was asked whether he'd stop referring to hispanic immigration as an invasion. A description used by the White
nationalist terrorists who murdered twenty two people in El Paso. A scene
advisor for the Trump campaign had a one word answer. No, so then
It is by now completely unsurprising
Donald Trump acts like a narcissistic sociopath during times of national tragedy? In yet.
Somehow it's still always worse than you imagine. It will be, at least for me
What was your reaction watching all of this unfold? Yesterday I mean it was
believe that it's like. I know we're not supposed to be surprised or shocked by anything Trump does that he is the worst person in America, and we all know this, but
even still this week was disgusting.
Just absolutely disgusting that he could
go to those communities meet walk through those hospitals meet
the people who were shot and injured in the family. Members of people who were killed, walk
out of there,
entire time think that the true victim of the day was Donald Trump
did he just is so he is just no
ask for compassion or empathy or even have an emotional connection with another human. There is this video that came out today if his discussion in El Paso, where
We applaud the medical staff, which is very nice, and he should do and immediately pivots to how big his rally crowd was an attack
sing. Better works rally crowd from their trip to El Paso a few months ago. It is just.
It is just mind boggling, what a horrible human being he is. I mean it just it
really is- and
ceases to shock us. When we see yeah like
I don't just hope to never have a president or any kind of leader in this country like this, I hope to never know a human being like this. I mean it's just it is
on the most human level, it is revolting to watch that, like
I don't know you're right, like I, don't know how any human being seeing that kind of tragedy
seeing that kind of grief up close in person in two different cities could
make the entire day about themselves? I mean it wasn't it was grievance. You know all the
Country, is grieving and
trump. It was all about grievance that the whole thing,
everything he was. A victim
He wasn't getting enough praise. The White House releases this fucking video of him in the hospitals and the music
looked like. I don't know it sounded like the fucking intro to like an NFL game. It,
most of the music was insane and all of
images are people taking pictures of Donald Trump and shaking his hand
There no picture made it wasn't, it wasn't like people get huh
in each other, and all that kind of things you would imagine the scene of it.
That it was all just people pick taking pictures of Trump,
smiling at him and shaking his hand. That was the video I mean like. There are
legitimate questions about the etiquette inappropriateness of doing a video about a thing like this. But there is a video that is about the belonged
an officers who save people's lives and they
Other heroes who were in the Walmart in El Paso were in Dayton, who
people's lives or a story of
a community coming together to heal and recover something like this.
Instead it is just a video about how popular trumpet
which also makes it fake news. Cuz he's not very popular
I mean it's just it's, but it's like this is not just trump. There are people that we pay, the american taxpayer pay for the.
Videos of people in the White House who decide.
That was right there, like
it's not just that we have this irrational. Narcissist with a twitter account it's this is
function of the White House is to serve this, like massively
secure empty shell of a human being yeah in, like I mean it's not just trump in that
you know Dan Scavino fuqing. You know his social media director that is responsible for half these tweets was tweeting yesterday
He was treated like a rock star in the hospital he's visiting people who are
were Woon did in a mass shooting or victims of a terrorist attack and the white
and Kellyanne. Conway was basically saying the same thing too is treated like a rockstar people loved him, and then this
unbelievably just awful thing happens where he in
eight and he's with the mayor of Dayton. These with shared brown. They tore the hospital, not
brown and Mayor Whaley come out and they hold a press conference sure
Actually says you know Trump, he did the right thing
for people, melanija comforter people they both did. The right thing is good and then said you know
I did push him on gun control and said that you know he. We should take these weapons out of people's hands and
My guess is that part on on CNN and then just goes crazy.
Twitter and on television saying that well and so does his staff by the way think
That's a lie, failed presidential candidate and just completely lies about
fact that shared Brown actually said he did a good job in the hospital. I don't know man
that it's really bad. It's really really bad and did get,
worse like. He is because he is active
becoming a worse president, every single day, which is the opposite of the way they should go. Yeah and look in this whole thing was not only predictable but predicted by many people from across the political spectrum,
George Conway conservative republican lawyer, George Conway Husband of Kellyanne Conway a couple days before Trump. Did these visits had this twitter?
Where he's like, you know, this is going to go Donald Trump's, going to give a speech on Monday that some sober speech on a
prompter and everyone's going. You know pat him on the back for it, but he's not going to
enough love for the speech, because he won't make any policy changes. You want talk about gun control. He still
racist. So because then the coverage
reflect that everyone loves him. He will get pissed at the coverage and then he will say.
Lashing out at everyone within a couple of days and sure enough,
that's exactly what happened, and it's not like George Conway, some fucking gene
Is anyone could have seen this coming, because this is who the man is and he will never change it's so fucking gross
so most of Trump's. Angry yesterday was you know per usual, but
I'm not getting enough praise, but I do
talk about how one of Trump's tweets yesterday quoted reports that the date
shooter had a history of supporting political figures like Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren and Antifa, which you know
even that report from a right wing out. It is fairly exaggerated. You know trump
He repeated this to reporters and then answer the question about whether the growing threat of white nationalism concerns him like this quote. I am,
right about the rise of any group of hate. Whether it's
supremacy, whether it's any uh
kind of supremacy, whether it's in
FIFA, whether it's any group of hate, I am concerned about it.
Then what does that remind you of
Chad, there are very fine people on both sides. I mean
So in the the broader question here, what is
Trump and the White House and republican pundits and the conservative media all trying to accomplish by talking about who
the Dayton shooter may have voted for
muddy the waters? This is the most classic Trump political technique. Trump knows
He is incapable of convincing people that he is not chity, but he
know, she's very capable of convincing people that everyone else is also shitty answer the
is exactly what twenty sixteen was about: yeah, I'm corrupt, but check out.
yeah, I'm a liar, but you got this thing. Hillary Clinton claimed
over and over again, and you just make
everyone, feel so cynical and terrible that they tune out and stop caring and that's
that's what we're doing here and it's based on
he is really
intuitive understanding of how the media works,
which is, he knows that their default position is both sides. So if you can give an argument for
the other side, that it will be reported either.
As fact or as Trump set X. So it becomes Trump said she
Trump said he said, or whatever else and
he's trying to draw a false equivalency here, because there,
There are fundamentally different things. They are what the
El Paso shooter did, and we know what the El Paso shooter thing, because the El Paso shooter posted a manifesto that echoes the message of the trump
and that echoes the message of Fox NEWS and the weather
you know who knows what these reports, but the Dayton shooter was.
Inspired by the rhetoric of Elizabeth Warren 'cause. If let me
Check my notes in one of those warrants rhetoric is oh yeah.
Sirius Wonky Policy based conversation about fixing the american economy, which is not
to be at the at the heart of what
led to the tragedy in Dayton.
Also there's plenty of evidence. So far the Dayton shooter was a misogynist.
Had a kill list and a rape list in high school. He was like a very true
old young man? That's that's the evidence
they're so far, and that you know this may change, but they're so far, zero evidence that he was radicalized by a political ideology at all.
But you know I mean, I think the most important point here is that there is a
Roger media narrative about polarization in America and how both sides are extremely polarized that doesn't
recognize that there's asymmetric polarization in this country that Republicans are far more extreme and polarized. The Democrats are
in the Republican Party as a whole, as far more extreme and polarized than the Democratic Party is or the left
and so, but because there's this narrative that exists in the media, it is easy for Trump, an republican pundits and people on Fox. To I mean if you watch Fox over the last couple of days, you know what are they talking about? They'll talk about. Antifa will talk about this date in shooter thing. They'll talk about protesters outside of Mitch, Mcconnell's house, they basically fox over the last couple of days, has been about how Fox and
Served and Donald Trump are victims right. They are the real victims here because for some weird reason, they're all being accused of racism, they're all being accused
of cause and gee. I wonder why look at the fucking manifesto that the El Paso terrorist
wrote. It is language directly pulled from Donald Trump from Tucker Carlson from Laura Ingram from Fox NEWS directly.
Uh, something that flow into the radar this week.
Say: Ocw V Pipe bomber from October of twenty eighteen,
who tried to assassinate Barack Obama, Hillary and
Clinton, other democratic leaders by attempting to mail them pipe bombs with sentence and his defense. His defense in his case, was that Donald Trump inspired him to do this.
What are we doing here: Donald Trump, who's, no fucking equivalents, Donald Trump has an enemies list. He is public about it. He talks about all the time. This is the second time in recent memory, where someone has taken it upon themselves to act,
enemies list and it is.
It. I just want to rest the Fox NEWS part of this, and I talked about this with Jane, and our conversation will be the end of this pod, but white national
is the message of Fox NEWS: it's not just the message of Tucker Carlson and Laura Ingram. It is the message of fox and friends. It's a message
five and all the other shity shows on that shooting network. The entire point
This has been the point since Barack Obama ran for
in two thousand and eight is that white people,
are under assault from non white people. That is,
grace taking your jobs, that is african
Mark is living in cities who are taking your taxpayer dollars. It is
Muslims who are coming here to kill you. It is MS thirteen coming here to kill you its armies of migrants invading America, that is their message. They've created a climate of hate in this country that is amplified by Trump nudes, and it is a toxic stew and there has been zero.
King introspection from anyone on the right other
random state senator in Nebraska,
who was asked to leave the party for that reason about
how their rhetoric has contributed to a climate of hate in a country where you can buy a fucking assault weapon in a store, and that, like you, would
you just hope that someone would look at what they are saying. Look what
they're doing in wondering if they should stop, but they aren't, they are incapable of that it. It is deeply dangerous and deeply disturbing
and it is a problem that will persist long after we get Trump out of the White House right. Well, I mean look if you want to completely just take the politics out of this. The FBI Chris Rea, the FBI director, says the domestic terrorism is our number one threat right now and that most of the cases of domestic terrorism,
over the last couple of years have been. You know, have involved white, supremacists, CNN report,
last night that the White House rejected efforts by the Department of Homeland Security to make combating domestic terrorism like the threat from white supremacists a greater priority. Instead.
The White House proposed that their national counterterrorism strategy focus on
medical islamistan foreign drug dealers, because that would please the President, that's what they said back to the Department of Homeland Security and the career officials at the Department of Homeland Security and by the way, some of the political appointees, trump political appointees.
That we had. The national security and law enforcement apparatus of this country, saying that this is a threat to the security of this country. Domestic terrorist white supremacists is a growing threat in this country. In the Trump White
I said now Trump likes a notice about, because
Donald Trump is a racist and it would upset Trump to read that he would
You are trying because he's a racist, and this is
we saw we talked about this a few months ago,
It's the same thing when the department homeland was trying to have a high level
White House meeting about stopping Russian in
election in the White House said no because it would upset
So the national security strategy in this country to protect Americans were domestic terrorism and far interference in elections is being
out of fear of a temper tantrum from the commander in chief, we try
my one year old, daughter, more like an adult,
responsibilities are like that the consequences are smaller.
Yeah. I mean I didn't get that it's an important point, because you know we focus so much day to day on Trump's rhetoric in the tweets and we can label them racist or not, raise
Stored narcissistic or not or whatever, but it's not just his words that
problem here though they are, it is the policies that flow from both his words and his deeply broken personality, because he is at the top of the federal government, and so there are policy consequences from this that are
every single day that often fly under the radar, because we're just focused on how crazy he is from day today and it's really dangerous. It's like, I think
full like to comfort for themselves, as idea that there a bunch of like Jim Mattis types in the government who just ignore Trump's tweets and do the right thing anyway, and that's not right.
The president, said something where he says it in a executive order or a tweet that becomes policy, United States and so
Twitter rants from the president are driving the policy as states and with great consequences for people's lives and safety yeah, and so obviously, I would say that the policy consequences are of the most important thing to focus on here, but you know just going back to yesterday. You know I. I was just angry watching this, like I, I was pretty sat. You know, because
I think in in times of national tragedy. You just you want a president to act like a president, even if you didn't vote for the president- and you Know-
You and I watched obama- do this way too many times on the White House, but I also think you know that's, maybe one part
job may be the only part of the job that even a president, like George W Bush, did pretty well after a national tragedy. Do you think this ability for a president to console and empathize is important, or is this just more optics bulshit that were comforting ourselves or not comforting,
I think it is important. I think there are times or there were
times I would say when people would put
politics aside, where you really would you want the president to?
of what our friend David Axelrod, called the pastoral role of the presidency to empathize with,
what has happened and let you
when your community is hurting, whether it's from a shooting or hurricane or some
other disaster that the president and your government
your back and the present would take the time out of their busy day to go to your community and grieve with you and can sole you and support you and
no, we went with President Obama too. We have six after natural disasters and tornadoes, and things like that to some of the red as parts of the country and their people, most people he saw all did not vote for him in two thousand. Eight ever from two thousand twelve would never vote for him, but they were
appreciative that he was there. His presence meant something, and I really worry that Trump
in the many ways in which he has ripped at the moral fabric of this country has made it so that that will never be the same again that he
because he is so toxic and so terrible. The other side will feel obligated to respond to a
more President who's, a Democrat in the abnormal ways in which we've been forced to respond to Trump, and I think it's it's it's
add that it will never be the same
I would say you are correct that George Bush did that
well, but he also contributed to this problem by taking the boat
of national unity after after after nine hundred eleven and
using it to jam. The country
into a war of choice in the country that the
invade us, and that started us down this path and Trump is finishing. The job.
Yeah. I know he. It is not to say that George Bush wasn't in the run.
For the worst president we've ever had. I not trying to make you I'm not trying to make you a Bush supporter, but I just like you are right. I realize what's coming after. I said that believe me, but look. No, I think, George
which is going to a mosque after nine hundred and eleven or something like that. There are these moments, where you're, like this fucking guy
I and this of course, before Iraq. Once Iraq happens, you like no him is he's done.
But there are moments before Iraq where you're like. I did not vote for this guy. I don't like this guy hit most of the things he stands for, but
for him, at least in this moment, not making it worse and not making it divisive, and I think you're right that was happening. What happened this week? What happened?
time. There's a national tragedy. Now I think, will revert
say, Trump has acted, and you know not just Trump but Fox NEWS, because they
speak for the or they influence the Trump's base will
reverberate for a long time now and I think the future presidents democratic presidents, especially are going to have to
sort of go out of the way to be to try to find that decency and compassion during times of tragedy and look- and I remember,
no working with Obama on some of these speeches after a tragedy or shooting- and you know there were times
especially towards the end when he would you know, push for gun control and you know Republicans- would criticize
him for politicizing the moment but
I remember like we took extra care,
Even when we were pushing for gun control, you'd, never think of attacking the Republican Party
King republican politicians, by name
lashing out at people, column, fuqing, failed, presidential candidates and all the other bullshit. You know, as he was meeting with grieving family,
speaking at memorial services. I mean that's insane to even think of
and the reason it is
and there are times after some of those massacres where we were all
very very pissed at the Republican Party, and we
this is ridiculous. That gun control has been held up, even though it's a ninety percent issue for background checks or whatever, but we do it, we will we all controlled ourselves. The president controlled
self? Because this is a moment that calls for a politician to sort of rise above yes, fight hard for the policy, push hard for the policy point out, who's blocking it, but just yelling about politicians attack.
And personally, what the at least if you're, going to yell yell about a policy issue be mad.
The rise in gun control- don't be
photo said something that you thought was mean right like
This is it it's not even just like it's just
is you've made. This point we made one thousand times has to be, it should be made over and get again. This is not
acceptable conduct for a president.
This is unacceptable conduct for human being.
If you saw your dentist act like this, you would not let him put his hands in your mouth, and so
Do you like.
It's just so it is so fun
roasted so infuriating and so sad. It is fucking sad that this is what we are living in. We
quite a few minutes on how the media has handled their coverage of trump since the attacks, you know there was a four
our twitter debate about whether people should cancel the New York Times subscriptions over that shocking
terrible headline Trump Regis unity versus racism, but it wasn't just
Times headline that puts people off. You know political had a story this week,
you were quoted in about how liberal frustration with the way the media covers
his boiled over a sentiment that was expressed most
currently by Beto O'Rourke when he said members of the press. What the FUCK
Dan. What did you think of the Times headline fiasco an and why do you think in general, the media keeps doing this shit.
I mean I was very mad about the Times headline, as everyone else was,
the anger ultimately
it's not really about the headline of the first edition, it was the boiling over of a larger
stration, with the media writ large and the times more specifically, and
some of that. Frustration is unfair and puts on the
Times unfair expectations of what of how accountability should be delivered to Trump in this era. Some of it is very fair and I
I read basically the rhymes with something that's very unusual for the times, which is they were transparent about their decision making, process this time and Dean Baquet
editor of the times he was a very smart and accomplished. Guy did a number of interviews and he did one with the
Text Lizzie O'Leary, that I thought was really fascinating and he walked through the alley,
but that headline it sounds pretty clearly that it was human error. It was like people
making a decision with uh
fast without enough supervision, and they made a mistake and they fixed it.
I think that is. I don't think there was a meeting with the time decided how to kiss up to Trump, and this is what they came up with
and you don't like you and I know from working in government that.
When you were debating between the reasons for a problem being either incompetence or conspiracy, it's almost always in, and that I think that's what happened here.
But there was something in that interview that was really interesting and I think
coke to what Beto
talked about which is Dean went
a lot of his way in there to say that this is
add an extraordinary time that we in America have been here before. We have have leaders like Trump before we've had tough times before, and that quote
explains everything about the Times editorial decision making process of the last several years
which is not to say they haven't done great journalism. They have grown as they are the gold standard of journalism in America and
I am a subscriber. I will remain a subscriber to think it is great, but that
I think is where they are wrong, because you act one way. If you think this is one
interlude in american history. You,
a different way, if you think we are at a crossroads between what we were in something else that is much worse, and that is where the misaligned misalignment between the times and the readers is 'cause. People are scared shiftless. They think that the country,
He is headed in a very bad direction. That Trump is dangerous if you think
it's just going to
go away, either into
twenty one or sometime after that, and then
Life will go back to normal, then you react the way the times is reacting, and I think that is. I disagree with it with
for assessment and therefore I disagree with their approach from that moment from that point well, and I think that also connects with something else. Dean Baquet said that
I thought you were going to mention, which is he's like you know,
you're not going to. He said something like we're: not going to be the opposition party to trump we're not going to play the
we don't see that as our role and it's sort of this, this
thought among- and you hear this a lot from members of the media where they're like you know we're not on we're, not Democrats right like we're we're not members of your party. We can't win this election for you and they think they sort of sometimes dismiss criticism about their coverage of Trump as partisan. Well, I don't have to really listen this criticism because
coming from Democrats and obviously they have a political interest in Trump losing and Trump looking bad. So, therefore,
I must not be making a mistake, because the criticism I'm getting is just motivated by partisanship, and I think that belief also flows from
belief that you were talking about, which is this isn't an extraordinary time, because if this was an extraordinary time and Trump's presidency does represent something much different than worse than we've seen in the past,
then you know the it's not about just pure partisanship and by the way there
plenty of evidence that it isn't. You know
how many more republican strategists republican pundits
publican publications on the friends. You know you get the never trump oppose all the other people. You've got all of these people who voted for a PA.
We can't voted Republicans all their lives. You know there's a story this week that Orange County California, for the first time in history, has more Democrats than registered Republicans all of
people are speaking out against Trump
in the party changing the way they vote you're, not seeing the same kind of thing on the democratic side at all. Clearly there,
something going on. There is a rejection to Trump, that is, that cuts across ideologies that cuts across parties that cuts across institutions, and it does seem like
the media itself, or at least some legacy media- has had trouble recognizing this, or at least
they recognize it, but they still feel like they have to prise balance over
anything else, even over the real
of. What's going on and striking ballot,
is so important to them that, even as Trump is
present, something more extreme and dangerous than ever. They still have to give both sides the same way.
There is a. I mean there was just as fundamental problem in journal
We're too often balances valued over accuracy right where you end
so that's one problem. The second problem, I think to your point, is that
there is this. I
on almost in some ways they have become uncomfortably numb to what is happening, and it's just whether weather.
It's just like there's this pull to try to treat trump
as normal as possible right just because it
be exhausting to cover
extraordinary event on a daily basis. To be as scared as most Americans are
and then the third element of this is in this. This goes to sort of a quote. I highlighted from Dd K, as I remember in the for
Obama term in a cabinet secretary who was sort of an old Washington hand, and he had done a a
handful of things. That seemed not entirely in Brock Obama's interest- and- I remember
someone on our staff who's, who had also been around Washington, awhile saying to Maine so, and so is here before Obama and they're going to be here after Obama and that's how they make their decisions, and I sometimes think a lot
the press, not all of the press. We should be very clear: there is some great journals and having a lot of it at the times and other places, but there is a sort of you that they are not as a
affected by the policies of trump other than his anti press rhetoric, and
therefore they just got to get through this moment without changing who they are.
Or changing what they have been or adjusting their strategies to reflect the new moment we're in well yeah. I
there's that and there's also I
this there's this belief among reporters like well. Forty percent of the country, at least forty percent of the country is with this guy and so
to the extent that we, you know honest,
They represent just how awful
dream he is. We are
doing that, like half
our half of the country, or at least almost half the country is with this guy, and if so,
the countries with this guy. Then he is normal.
Just buy a lot of american citizens, and so I think it's like not just this fear of of Trump and what like republican pundits will say about you. But
motors or the american people.
The times. I saw this Peter Baker from the times without at the trump that I that
like twenty, I may have the Robert something like twenty one million
subscribers the New York Times now I would
love to know what percentage of those subs
robbers are trump voters. Yeah
eight forty percent I'll, tell you that? No, no, I do not,
so I think I would. I would bet it's up funny. Yeah and look. I mean like your job as a journalist,
also not to play to the audience that subscribes to your
publication right like we want journalists to just be accurate and tell the truth, regardless of who's. Reading them am, but I also think look I don't. I don't expect journalists to be. You know, members of the Democratic Party to try to help us achieve you know purely partisan ends
of course not. I don't. I don't think that they are on our team, but there is a way to write about Trump and analyze. Trump
just using facts not putting any partisan spin whatsoever, then more,
accurately represents what an awful human
the president. He is, then we Kerr
we see, often that's all I'm saying you can do
any partisans been whatsoever. Just the facts in front of your face. Do you
any views on the subject
in canceling debate.
Yeah- I don't I mean I, I don't think you should cancel your subscription. I don't I mean I think, like the times does incredible journalism
even if you only like it for the opinion and an you know, if I can Bret Stephens or whoever else everyone's yelling about makes, you tear your hair out. There is fantastic opinion columnists at the times that people who write for the times that are right. Some of the best
realism in the country in the world and so
I think that you know I'm never gonna
my job is to read the news and they
produce really great news most of the time they also drive me crazy, and I also like I have a broader point, which is when people piss you off I'd. Rather
front of Maine yell at them about it and try to get them, persuade them to change things which, by the way the times did change the headline after there was the outcry. They didn't change it to something that was much better, but they changed it, and so I tend to think that that's the way to get people to change their behavior, and I don't think you know a bunch of people on twitter canceling. Their subscriptions is going to make a dent at all in
sort of what the you know. It's not gonna change the times, behavior anyway yeah. I agree with that. I I am a subscriber, I'm a proud subscriber, I'm not I've
I've done? It would not encourage people to cancel. I do understand why some people would do so. The part I hated about the debate,
people raising legitimate issue and then
order it from the times in this case, but from other places yelling at you and calling you stupid for wanting to change to cancel your subscription right.
Just yelling at the the consumer is a terrible business strategy and it like
I thought that was what made the debate. Terrible was the reaction from cloud
the part of the reaction I did like where the people who said
If you cancel your time, subscription subscribe to something
because we should support off the one local paper or it's a progressive media.
Outlet like the nation or mother Jones are the ones who are reader supported in their entire t, like that means
but the whole thing is like
Per usual, we are having an angry
a debate about one of the least important parts of the problem. Yeah I mean just to sort of zoom out from this. Do you
with this sort of frustration with the media in general. Is why sort of beddoes moment about the press
resonated online. I saw you in the political piece saying that for the first
in your career. It's good politics for Democrats to rail against the media, which I thought was a very interesting point. Yes,
there is a growing frustration and anger within democratic activists and democratic voters about the role of the media has played in
trump era and, like we said before, some of it is fair. Some of it is unfair, but it is real and it is
We are sitting here screaming about what is happening in this country like we see
is racist liar as a president and then you have or media outlets afraid to call the president a racist or a liar that you.
It is a bubbling and when you raise your concerns, you get yelled at for them right then,
is that you are wrong. There was very little seems to be very little introspection. What was
site useful about that. That would happen at that time. So by the time to explain what happened the Times fire their public editor. We still they don't answer questions.
What they did right or did wrong. I am
well by many people work at the times that they spend a lot
I'm learning lessons from twenty. Sixteen and I've tried to apply those to now, but no one knows that, because the times demand
transparency of everyone, but themselves.
I think you have a bunch of other media organizations.
I think there is a real like this is a.
Growing problem, and I think media organizations would be remiss
They did not focus on I'm not seeing if they change their behavior becomes liberal anything else, but
your business is become primarily driven by democratic voters
they're the ones subscribing there they're the ones watching tune on Fox NEWS, not rotten non right wing propaganda, media outlets and if they are also
create you you're going to find yourself with no base, but no group of people and Beddo
comments and also by Cory. Booker and others have expressed this reflect that anger
and that is a sea change from where things used to be yeah and reflect. As you said, you could see it and, like better, was first
question that we are in this and the frustration I'm sure it was directly related to the fact that they massacre happened in his hometown, that this is
different moment that this is something unique and different an extreme and that there is not a broad enough recognition of that. Certainly among enough
members of the media, the other thing that makes people really angry is that there is a lot of gendered.
Racial stereotypes in political writing right. It's a talk of electability
focus on line
working class voters in the Midwest as opposed to non voter
of color or voters of color around the country, and, like
at like there is there is. There is a in a week, white privilege problem with a lot of journals and not all of it
and that also drives it, which is why you see such Frustr.
From supporters of women. Can't
that's like Kamala Harris Elizabeth Warren, who often
Are you find the sexes troops in writing about the candidates like? Are they likable enough of the electable enough? Are they too loud? You don't
that sort of stuff that also came is a rear
should to how the two thousand sixteen elections covered in that came through this week. You know we said at the at the top of the pod that this was the worst terror
attack on the latino community in the United States in modern american history, and yet their coverage are not enough coverage. I think
Time has done a really good job with this, but not enough of the coverage is really reflected that aspect of the story. You know, there's been a lot of
Trump has Trump behaved. Well, has he not behaved? Well, we just talked about that. It's uh
type of guns, but there hasn't been a lot of focus on the fact that this was a terrorist attack against the latino community was a hate crime and I think a lot of Latinos in this country are rightly angered.
That that that that wasn't a prominent enough angle in the coverage one more,
one more thing before we move on to guns, speaking of sort of Beto's response to this, how do you think the democratic candidates as a whole have been handling this
week. Do you think they've sort of reason to meet the moment, and should this change? How much should this change the race for the present?
I'm not going to get into will or won't it, but how much should it change how they focus their time and attend
I think the democratic candidates on the whole have risen to the moment they have spoken out passionately and eloquently about,
the role of Trump's rhetoric and white nationalist political philosophy in what happened in El Paso. They have talked about the
Daily tragedy in this country, because the easy access to guns- and they have they have not- they have not hedge their bets, they have not pulled their punches, they have been strong. You know whether it
is Elizabeth, Warren and better or calling trump a white supremacist, whether it's the speech, the Cory Booker gave in South Carolina South Carolina yesterday. This
the Joe Biden, gave an Iowa people have been strong and
more than you haven't seen political
calculation enter into this moment. I look
there are lots of things that love and lots of things to criticize about people in this field. But I think, on the whole, this is
well. I was very proud of our democratic candidates. I felt the same way too:
to a person every single one of them, and you know it's funny, because I thought
about how we all felt after the last debate.
Democrats in the stories were about sort of like democratic infighting and are they attacking Barack Obama and all that bullshit, and you know sometime
I think it takes a moment like this and and watch
the mall react to him like this. That makes you think you know I'd be very proud for any one of them to become president instead of like Donald Trump, and
no matter what our differences are and what we may fight about over the next couple months and there will be even more fights as we get closer to the actual voting.
Any single one of these democratic candidates would be infinitely better than Donald Trump and the fate of
the country, our democracy and perhaps the world depends on one of them, winning it really does, and it really puts the Intra party fights that we've had in perspective. I think because
they are incredibly important. They will make a difference to millions of people's lives, and yet they are just all so much
together on all of these issues. Then
We are with the presidency
what we're seeing right now, uh,
and I do think, an end in terms of like whether it it should change the race. I you know that this is also goes back,
sort of that last debate, where everything seemed so
small, like the argument seemed a little small like everyone was going back and forth, and you know there's been you know last time
when, when Donald Trump, you know tried to or said that those for Congress, woman of color should be should go back where they came from.
You know, they're all these pundits getting very nervous about. Should you know Donald Trump wants,
race and identity at the center of this race? Democrat shouldn't take the bait we have to. You, know, pivot to economic issues and health care and all the like.
And, of course, you- and I know that economic issues in Healthcare and
really important part of the campaign, but it does seem like there is no choice for the democratic candidates but to confront Trump's racism head on as a central part of this campaign right. I don't know I mean what do you think? I think you I think you have to. I think like and we've said this before you have. We have a moral obligation to call it out, because it is at the heart of everything that is
I think it is why everything Americans were slaughtered at Walmart on a Saturday because of the color of their skin it those things are all related, so you have to call out
But I think you also have to explain how the impact of racism
wow what how it fits into the larger political strategy and that this was revealed in
it's the most stark way possible by the the rich
guy who owns Soulcycle, who
who is hosting a fundraiser for Trump who is come under
and he said basic
a I'm going to boil down his remarks, but he
really opposes Trump's views on race, but likes his tax cuts in. Therefore, he will support him.
Those two things are related. It is
racially it is racial grievance for the purpose of tax cuts for the rich, and so
I think you have to call out the racism and explain why
dividing us what he is trying to distract from from his corruption. From his
what is the gender from twin? Take your health care away, Catcher Medicare Center, because the it is all of a piece- and you can't do just one part of it. You have to tell the broader story yeah. I agree with that too. I I do think that you know I'm. I found myself drifting further to the camp. Where
you know confronting his racism head on, isn't just about doing. It
because you have to, and it's the morally right thing to do, and then you pivot and says distracting from all these other issues, but that, like as a political strategy on its own political incidents, that you know our coalition in this party is increasingly made up of younger people of color
who are looking to this president and to them his
racism is a material issue. It is a life or death issue and that if we want to we, if we expect these people to come out and work hard and vote,
in this election, the democratic candidates
to make sure that they are not only on the right side of this issue, but talking about it rather frequently and showing that their past.
About it and showing that they care and showing that that they think it's actually an existential issue right now for this country, I think that's part, and it's not it's not even
looking at polls to do this and like slicing and dicing the electorate, it's just it's stepping back from all this, and almost just thinking to yourself is like in the most common sense way like, of course. This is what this.
Election is about. You know that we have the most racist president
ever had in the White House, and that racism is sort of flowing through all of his policies. Of course, that's what we're deciding on when we go to the polls in November of twenty twenty, it is their referendum on that, and I just don't like we can pretend we can run ads and we can pivot. We can do other stuff, but I don't know how you avoid that that is the central issue in this election
Mama would always make the point that it is never a good political strategy to avoid addressing the elephant in the room
and we have really and treasuries as it is in a giant white elephant in the room and that yes, one election, that's right! That's the
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all right. So in the wake of these two mass shootings Democrats are once again trying to pass gun safety measures and Republicans are once again trying to stop them. Despite the
a clear majority of Americans support, gun safety measures actually was published a piece on Wednesday about focus groups conducted in Minnesota where Romney Clinton, voters.
Obama, Trump voters, all expressed, that they were ready for both?
on assault weapons and a requirement for federal background checks on all gun purchases. According to a poll released
by politico and morning, consult
Surety of all voters in a majority of republican voters would support an assault weapons band. So it goes beyond the focus group Dan. How have the politics around guns chain
since Newtown or even parkland, the
popular sentiment behind these
common sense, gun control proposals have not really changed that they remain incredibly popular. The
The one thing that has changed is the
taking a while for the gun safety movement too.
Up to the NRA in terms of funding organization, but I think they have done that with the work that the Giffords organization is done. Every town, the incredible work that moms demand
Stan is the way we can now. We've always had a release in that since new town popular so
and on our side, but the end.
The organization activist Energy was on the side of the people who
on the side of the NRA. I think that has changed and I'm not sure that all
the democratic party? Leadership has recognized that shift in that this is the moment to strike.
Yeah I mean there's there's some interesting stats on the
selection, voters in twenty eighteen favored, stricter gun control by a margin of twenty two percentage points and those who did back democrats-
margin of seventy six to twenty. Two. According to exit polls, gun policy, ranked as the number
or concern of voters and vote.
She decided it as their top issue voted for Democrats by a margin of seventy to twenty nine percent, so, as sort of the coalition of both parties is changing as Democrats sort of have more,
suburban voters, formerly republican voters who were in the suburbs, were slightly wealthier formally
headed voters, those voters. I think
There are a lot more about gun control and are more favorable towards gun, control and gun safety than has ever happened before. Is that seem right, yeah? That seems right and we have to campaign and act like it yeah why?
so why can't popular gun measures become law right? You have v,
majority of the american people. You know something like ninety percent want background checks.
Clear majority want assault. Weapons ban and
you have, you know, there's some bipartisan support in Congress, for the
obviously not enough, but there's a problem
your house members, I do the
majority of house members in a majority of Senate members, members of the Senate, who wants some kind of gun control why it happened.
Because America is a democracy governed by anti democratic institutions. Yeah,
there is no better example of the sickness at the heart of
democracy than gun control. We've literally
can't stop people from buying weapons of war and shooting up Walmarts, because even
that's what the public wants, because our our democratic institutions are broken enable broken by the Republican Party yeah I mean again, I come in now, I'm obviously a broken record on this, but it comes back to the film
yes, there is. There is no world where we pass legislation on gun control, significant gun control,
right, like we may see in the coming weeks in art, these red flag laws. We know which they passed in Florida, which are which are good, which you know, make sure that people who are may commit violence that seem like there is a threat to commit violence, make sure they don't have a gun which seems like fucking common sense
you Know- still doesn't happen everywhere, so you may see it like a red flag law, but when you're talking background checks, when you talking assault weapons,
and we will never see those never as long as the filibusters in place? We just want it's just we're. Not Democrats. Democrats are not going to get sixty votes in the Senate. In the neck,
in the foreseeable future. There are not enough races, there are not enough vulnerable senators, there are not enough states, you can flip. Just look at the fucking map. Look at it in twenty look at in twenty two look at it in twenty four look at it in twenty six. You can look at
every single one of those years. You cannot add up. You cannot count up this democratic senators in states that we could win and add up to sixty it cannot do. It will not happen again in our lifetime, absent a massive
event it just it cannot the way popular. Every demographic trend is pushing against Democrats having a filibuster proof majority in the Senate, every single one- and this is why I like we harp on this all the time
but if a candidate tells you they are for Medicare for all they're for green new deal, they
legislation there for naming a fucking post office, and they also for keeping the filibuster. Then they are selling you a bill of goods. They just are
you're not going to accomplish anything of significance to write this country to save the fucking planet without getting rid of the
I will support, whoever democratic nominee is for sure I will.
To them campaign for them. Vote for that blah blah blah blah blah, but I am
supporting anyone in the primary who supports a filibuster.
That we are, that is time
hand behind your back before you even get to the White House
it's interesting when I
it's better on Monday, you know he had previously been open to get rid of the flu,
Mister, I think he said yeah, that's something I really want to consider, and you know he did have some qual
location. I remember you know this was months ago, his answer and when I
talk to Monday about assault, weapons, ban and gun control,
Vision, I said, would you will push the Democrats in the Senate to eliminate the filibuster if your president, he said? Yes, it was not. It was
qualified there's nothing else. Just yes and
People that have been a clear yes on this are Elizabeth Warren, better Orc, Jay, Inslee
people that are just close: it yeah, Psh pizza
It's very much like yeah. It's got to go. We got to change it. I think there was some small qualification, but he's pretty much in that category too, but it's just the four
You know I mean I I push book on this. He said he'd consider it come with that you consider it so that's good, but they're still in sort of the consider phase. You know
Biden, I think we're have real problems with uh.
Sanders was interesting. Sanders has got a new thing where he's talking about using.
Conciliation the budget process, where you only need fifty one votes to pass all of his big ticket items, but he's not going to be able to pass gun control through budget reconciliation, so he's going to get rid of filibuster to too they all do it's just that
what you have to do, I think, interestingly enough, given all of the conversations about the violence in the Democratic Party that the big divide in the party is not between liberals and moderates.
Right, the left in the center. I think it's between the people who believe that
accuracy is in peril and are willing to take on the bold democratic reforms to address that and those who aren't, I
and people, to a moderate
It better was more
earth and some on issues. Elizabeth Warren is a died in the wool progressive
they believe that in Bernie Sanders is progressive as they come as a different approach.
Joe Biden moderate life, an approach that is the dividing line that I am most interested in, because that is to me the people that he was with people who get what is happening. This country and those who are still at least somewhat blind to the challenge we face yeah or have.
In the Senate for a little while,
yeah, I mean those aboard the only one. Who's really escape this, but so Chuck Schumer on Wednesday.
The Democrats were not going to settle for half measures, so Republicans can feel better and try to push the issue of gun violence off to the side and so that any red flag bill that comes to the floor
must be accompanied by a vote in the house passed universal background checks, legislation good for Chuck, Schumer for saying that, and making that a stand,
Meanwhile, more than two hundred has Democrats road to Mcconnell on Wednesday, pushing him to reconvene the Senate for an emergency session on guns. Is this a good
strategy should Democrats be doing more. What do you think about that?
that's a handling this in general, not great
I think what Schumer said was right. I think the
Caravan that TIM, Ryan and others are taking from Ohio to Kentucky is a great idea. I wish the demo you guys
really talk about this. I thought really well on Monday, but is
We have to be a vessel for the righteous anger in this country, and that means doing recognizes it
extraordinary moment and doing something extraordinary, and I think that demo-
that should cancel the August recess. Come back to Washington right now and vote re these bills sent to the Senate. I think Senate Democrats should go, should be in Washington right now. Pushing Mcconnell too
hold you make a republican stay in the Senate and knocked down unanimous consent requests to take out these bills. All August
someone people should head to Kentucky and if you don't want to protest outside my house, protest out the Mcconnell Institute at Louisville. Democratic senators should do that Democrat members of Congress. Who do we
to draw attention as we have to push it. We have to put pressure on the Republicans and
moment to, if not to fifth.
If the politics, if not pass the laws, are before us right now, and even if you say Mcconnell will do nothing 'cause, he is a heartless compassionless vampire, which is true
even if they were not going to accomplish it now, the work we do today to push this issue will make it easier for a democratic president to do it in twenty twenty.
Being a vessel for righteous anger is probably the best advice I think you could give to the Democratic Party
especially the Democratic Party in Congress. It really sort of sums up what they should be doing on almost every issue. It's
it, it goes to impeachment. It goes to all of stuff stuff you that the best that they can do is show that they're fighting
get caught trying like we always said in the White House, get caught trying, and you know
guys that we live in a media age where the most important
you can do, is to grab figure out ways to grab the spotlight grab the megaphone away from Donald Trump and capture media attention right like it's. It's not fun that that's what you have to do these days, but that's
world that we live in an you need to be creative and you need to think of creative ways to capture the countries attention to capture media attention, and I don't think I think the democratic presidential candidate
you're doing a great job of that, partly because they live in the world of campaigning and they have a bunch of
images on their campaign who are trying to think of this stuff all the time. I think that the congressional
Rats are have been behind the eight
to say the least: it's it when it comes it's hard like they had it harder if you are like a phone, so take it. Like a democrat president, your truck MRS giant megaphone never had personal journal. Can it's of like little bore pull hordes hands?
You know this: the Democratic National like screaming into a paper bag, and so it's very hard, but I think they can and should do more, and I would hope that in the coming days they will ship
allergies and do so because the politics are on their side, the right, the moral high ground. They have the moral high ground press. Your advantage now
It is not, it is to forget,
like the Trump media age, the days of Facebook and twitter. Even
like the more traditional news time in the past with a normal president. It is
possible to convince you to remind people, something they didn't originally know, and they
No, you pass this bill, they do,
not know, you passed the background check bill, so you're going to have to do it again now that there
attention for people to know that.
One last question on this: why do you think they haven't? The democratic house hasn't passed in assault weapons ban? Yet that is a great fucking question. I have no idea. I really don't want to know the answer 'cause. I think it would make me
I don't either again. This is like you know,
twenty percent recent polls. Seventy percent of all voters back in assault weapons ban. Fifty five percent of Republicans
fifty five percent of Republicans back in assault weapons ban
What are you doing? I realize there's some tough districts out there for Democrats. I relate that. You know that's going to be the answer right. Some of these are in very and it's not the Clinton Romney district,
not the suburbs that they're talking about those. I bet
Katie, Porter and all the rest of them, but the cricket, seven who won in California, would be probably fine with an assault weapons ban. It's the Democrats that are stuck in these Obama Trump districts in the Midwest and more rural areas and I'm sure they're terrified of an assault.
When's band, but I don't know that they need to be they don't do you no. This is this is the danger of having Congressi
leaders have been around forever because they were all
around whether it is Shoemart Apolosi to Hoyer to Clyburn. All of
were around in the nineteen. Ninety four crime bill, which included the assault, weapons ban and then uh
large portion of their colleagues lost their seats, not
see for many reasons, but in the history and and narrative as was written, they lost a
they were tough on guns and that fundamentally shifted the democratic approach on guns.
And then Columbine happened in Democrats.
Talking about guns again and then Al Gore lost, and he last ate. The Democrats used to win like West Virginia in his home state of Tennessee, and the narrative was guns and
made us more reticent and then we started talking about it again after Newtown and then Democrats lost again, including in all of these rule areas. The narrative was guns when that is not actually the case
complicated reason why people lose elections and
all of the gun control bills, the assault weapons ban seems like the easiest cell and I recognize their challenges with implementation in the last one was in perfect, but people
need a weapon of war to go hunting. They don't need a weapon of war, protect their house and the Dayton
example, is the best one for why we shouldn't have weapons like that, which is the police,
or on the scene when it happened in Indiana.
All those people got shot in under a minute because of that weapon, yeah
That is a policy choice we make as a country and unfortunately, we can lay
all of us at the feet of the Republicans put on the question: that's all weapons ban. It is a policy choice. The democratic Party also made- and that is problematic yeah just go. Look at that axioms story that focus group. Listen to these Obama. True
voters. These are people who voted for Donald Trump in Minnesota,
rural area Minnesota and they're sitting there saying
yeah. Absolutely no one needs a weapon like that. Of course, we should ban those, I mean what else you need to hear all right. Let's talk about two thousand and twenty.
Over the last few weeks, there's been a rush of house Republicans heading for the exits about a dozen GOP.
Makers have announced that they won't be running for reelection next year, including a cluster of Republicans from Texas will heard the
African american Republican in the house is among them, Democrats flipped several congressional seats in Texas in twenty eighteen in came the
close to winning a statewide race for Senate that they've been in decades. There are thirty eight electoral votes at stake in Texas in next year's presidential.
Race Dan. Why are so many house Republicans retiring, and what does that mean for the House map in twenty twenty
because, as Republican, you only have two choices actively enabled.
Racism, corruption and incompetence, or quit the party yeah bend the knee or head for the exits
that is, that is the only. That is the only option you have mean.
Like some of these, it seems like
these members were critical of Trump.
Have been critical of trump in the past. A couple of them had, you know, voted against him and then some just face
to help free election in some of these tough, moderate, suburban districts and then for some of them. It was
right yeah, I think that's right, and so it right some of these districts will just be replacement. Other public will be competitive. The one
a lot of the ones in Texas, represent the rapid shift of what's the politics in Texas, where
it had been solidly red became less red in our moving to purple, if not light blue and that's very worrisome,
people and they'd rather quit than lose. I do
Thank you. We should just note that a lot of most of these people who are quitting think Trump is a
dangerously unfit racist and it's
and instead of doing anything about it, if using the power granted to them by the constitution, to hold him accountable or use the
from the Heavens member of Congress. They would rather quit and become lobbyists, and that is fucking gross. Very telling
just so just so. Everyone gets an idea what the House map looks like the Republicans need to flip nineteen.
Twenty seats in twenty twenty, I say nineteen or twenty 'cause, it depends on the results of the special election will be held in the North Carolina's ninth district,
timber, which you can hear more about on cricket minis. We have a series about the how
Nc9 was was rigged
What's going on there narrated by Shin, equal Mcclendon? Are political director check it out? It's excellent and C9 sounds like a tv show on the CBS network. I know I
we should take it out so
but some Republicans are going to mainly target thirty one Democrats, who currently represent districts that Trump carried in twenty. Sixteen. Of course, the problem for Republicans is some of those districts are suburbs that are trending toward the Democrats, but that's sort of their target list you talked about.
Texas. So three of the retirements came in Texas
I heard Kenny Marchand PETE Olson and there are,
six Income- Texas, Republicans in the house who kept their seats by less than five points in twenty eighteen, then, what's going on with
Why is the state getting bluer? It
It is dealing with a fundamental shift in two ways: why'd, you have more college educated
voters moving into the suburbs Texas, I think seventy. I saw this really interesting set of stats from Dave Wasserman. At the cook report you can follow on Twitter at at Redistrict, talking
Why Arizona, Texas are targets for Democrats and,
do better in
metro areas, the cities in the surrounding suburbs and seventy
Two percent of the vote in Texas comes from those urban areas, those metro areas
Democrats are to Texas becoming more diverse, but it's also the white voters also dramatically shifting in Texas, and so it's you know it was the state that move the furthest in the democratic column in two thousand. Sixteen obviously better came very close
the winning it in twenty eighteen and
There is a sense of panic both amongst these individual members in the Republican Party here at large, about where
Crown jewel of their electoral college strategy is headed. I found that stat about what percentage of the vote comes from the cities
state to be fascinating, because it also you know they had Wisconsin
and Michigan and Pennsylvania up there and
they had Minnesota and something like sixty percent of the vote in Minnesota comes from the cities.
Which tells you why, even though it's another midwestern state, like the other ones, it didn't flip to Donald Trump, because there's less of the vote comes from cities in Wisconsin,
actually where he, where he won and when you look at the
a high percentage of the vote that comes from cities in Texas and Arizona, you really do see that those states are trending democratic in a
way because, if you live in an urban area, you are
not only likely to vote democratic but
Bio very wide margin, Republicans
becoming largely extinct in some of these urban areas. Now the flip side of that is places where the
is coming in
in mostly small towns and rural areas, Democrats having an eve
harder time when it, and so you've heard
seen this polarization
we're undergoing a fundamental.
Realignment of the electorate right now. It started in two thousand and eight ed moved a thousand twelve it. We saw all the impacts in a negative way. Two thousand sixteen, but it it things are changing where democratic votes come from. A shifting republican votes are come from a shifting it as going to overtime,
affect electoral college strategy, and the real question is whether Texas and Arizona become blue before the Midwest become solidly red. Like that's the race,
The demographic race that's happening within that an american politics in just underscore
so important that is if we, if Democrats win Texas, an Arizona in a presidential race, you could hit two hundred and seventy it hit
Seventy one, if you then lost Michigan
Pennsylvania Wisconsin Florida,
in Minnesota. You could lose all five of those states
Win Texas and Arizona and still win the electoral college, if all the other states that in twenty sixteen remain the same? That isn't that. That is why Texas people focus so much on Texas. As this big prize, the question is Dan. Do you think Democrats could win in Texas in twenty
Yes, it is a, I think it is a long shot for them to do so and there's going to
fundamental resources question because Texas
so big and so expensive? I there will be it'll, be a real question for the for the democratic nominee of the Democratic Party and and
affiliated Super Pacs, whether they're willing to spend the money to do so.
And I'll ever be very interested to see. Polling like Blake will be competing Florida or, as far
moving in the wrong direction, while those resources,
go to Texas Arizona is a safer bet because it's
it is smaller there. If your media markets, it's simply cheaper to do and easier
and your sins Cinema, one there right one. Eighteen, we have a Democrat a one there. Now that's right, I mean, but in the end the argument against Texas is even though Heather Clint did much better than Barak Obama. She still lost by nine
An nine points would be a long way for the state to go in a short period of time, but that has happened in the past. I mean those midwestern states like Iowa and Ohio shifted more than nine points at the republican direction in two thousand and sixteen so
it is possible and it's going to be a question of resources and whether the democratic candidate could put together the sort of coalition that can win Texas, which is one that is similar to the one that better was put together in,
two thousand eighteen, which is Jim at really excite the democratic base and turned out to voters and be able to win, win a majority of a significant majority of independence and want to see if the, if our nominee can do that. I think that is sort of the big question with Texas is everyone. Sort of digs into the number is is how much of twenty eighteen was better responsible for as a candidate and how much was larger democrats, demographic forces in Texas, they're, moving toward
words Democrat, because I think that matters a lot when you think about a can. A Democrat win the Senate race in twenty twenty against John Cornyn and B,
can whoever the democratic nominee is Kerry Texas in the general- and you know there is, I think the short answer is both right. It was as some of it had to do with Bateau as a candidate in his campaign, and some of it has to do with demographic changes, but you know Nate Cohn, dig dug into this a couple months ago,
and he thinks that better would have won the race with two thousand and twenty turn out.
And that we're better really overperformed was among white voters, college educated
orders and they basically got him super close and also
crossover voters, he got about five hundred thousand votes that the
Publican Governor Greg Abbott got so five
other people voted for Greg, Abbott, that fucking Guy and voted for better O'Rourke and but better didn't get this surge of hispanic turn out
that usually happens in a presidential year, but not in a Senate year. What's what's your read on all that? I I think the
Challenge for a Democrat in two thousand and twenty is that five hundred thousand Abbott or work
which I think is very tied to TED Cruz being the most unlikable person walking the face of the planet
and it's not on lake, I think
gets a large portion of those voters back because
something very specific about cruise now
is there? Is there enough outstanding, ah drop off, though
latino drop off out or new voters to make up that delta. Yes, absolutely there is,
it that's why it is possible, but-
one hundred thousand is very significant. I think it is not easily replicel by any candidate running it.
Ok, bye, bye, democratic nominee in two thousand and twenty, even even better. The only thing that gives me pause on that is TED Cruz is approval rating on election day
Two thousand and eighteen was actually above water, even though I run says he's like the most unpopular person. Ever it was like five thousand and forty nine, it's pretty close, but it was
play backwater, water and Trump's approval rating on election day. Two twenty eighteen was slightly.
Below water, it was a forty nine percent where it exists today, and so they know, there's some believe that it wasn't necessarily.
TED Cruz is unpopularity that helped Beto in two thousand and eighteen, but Donald Trump's, unpopularity that helped better. Oh and a lot of these other congressional candidates who won in two thousand and eighteen now, Donald Trump also
the top of the ticket, so you're right when Donald Trump is at the top of the ticket and not just in the background, maybe voting changes, but I don't know it was something that I thought about yeah it's in it like it. Is it the fact that Texas is in discussion of being a battleground state and twenty twenty is a pretty dramatic statement that people would have thought you were insane to set. Like obviously, Democrats have talked about this. It's the great you know, white whale of a lot
politics forever and we talked about since two thousand and twelve and always Pooh poohed by the people who look at the math, but now the people
the math say you're in the neighborhood of make possibly making it possible is speaks to a really dramatic shift that should really scare Republicans, if not a twenty twenty over the long term, yeah. Okay, when we come back, we
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it's a great app. You should download it. It helped. Donors choose bye, we're joined today by Jane Mayer, the chief Washington correspondent at the new Yorker Jane thanks so much
being part of America great to be with you. We want
I have you on this week because there's been so much conversation in the
of what happened in El Paso about
Trump's rhetoric in the entities like Fox NEWS that have amplified that rhetoric
and you have studied the relationship between Fox NEWS and this White House is closely as anyone that was one
If you could,
we have our readers and you covered this in your new Yorker article awhile.
We give our readers a summary of just how close Fox news in this White House is well there
So interwoven sometimes it's hard to see where one ends and the other begins uhm, so that you've got.
Because Sean Hannity who's got the highest rated program on Fox
on the phone almost every night, with Trump according to Hannity, so that the two of them speak all the time. The producers speak often to the people in the White House, there's kind of a revolving door back and forth of personnel and there's an ulcer. The sinking, that is S Y n C h. I him chief of state of the kind of the line of the day is this is
Every level of discomfort, like you mentioned Hannity, we know that Lou Dobbs is on the Fox business network has been dialed into White House meetings,
the hosts of Fox and friends has been floated for numerous administration positions. Are there,
three people within Fox were uncomfortable with this relationship, or is this just sort of how business is done? These days
right. There are, and I mean they're really people don't realize. Often when they talked about Fox NEWS, there are sort of two parts of it. There's the the talk show hosts, who really are opinionated and and kind of completely separate from
um having to even worry about being factually accurate, and then there is the news side that sort of does some of the straighter news shows during the days they're reporter, for the reporters, for the new side to some extent are have voiced discomfort with what's going on, they want to be able to have some in dip
just as all reporters are supposed to, and then occasionally you have someone like Chris Wallace Chris Wallace, who say he's conservative, but
an excellent interviewer. Ann wants to be able to hold people accountable in the Trump administration as well as elsewhere. In this heat,
push back from the top on that, because I mean I know, people actually recently, there's been pushed back from Trump on it. Trump trump been tweeting this some complaints about Fox NEWS,
occasionally he'll. He seems peeved whenever Fox NEWS, uh sort of pokes him in anyway, because he seems to think that he he owns it and that and and gets angry with them. When they're off the reservation.
Do you have a sense of how Fox reacts to that? Is that make them nervous? Is that you know what business risk for them. I think that is
bigger and has a longer vision than just Trump tv right now it it. It looks like
from tv too many people, but presumably
point Trump will no longer be president and Fox will continue, and so it it. It needs to be able to look beyond Trump, and so so you know it's, it's ambitions are greater
Trump and its ambitions are global.
It I mean it is a fox- had several iterations right. There was when it first started, and then there is the post, nine hundred and eleven sort of
the of the Bush WAR Machine Fox NEWS. Then there was the rear
action to Obama
news. Another is the pro Trump Fox NEWS: do what do people in the
within Fox think comes after Trump for Fox. Well, I mean when we talk
Watch fox now we're talking about. There's, there's also a generational shift within the running of Fox Rupert Murdoch. Its founder is very old and and has had some brushes with really serious health problems, and his son Lachlan is is now the ceo and serve the rising force within Fox, and so so really. The question of its future revolves to a large extent on what Lachlan's vision is, and you can see some of that by saying what Lachlan did when he.
Who is running on his entropy news,
prices in Australia. What he did was. He is very much someone who has tried to profit off.
With anti immigrant sentiment fan the flames of sort of xenophobia and uh.
He kind of five white credence and n B. So I mean it's it's in line with the fox, what we know, but it may be even more toxic in some ways. That's what we're we're all watching to try to see what the future might be. There.
That's very interesting and I think important to know because, for
in the from its
from its inception, Fox, really
I think a lot of us thought represented the
worldview and political strategy of Roger Ailes, and there was always this gap between ALS and Murdoch Murdoch,
had been a vocal supporter of covers of
and reform it even made some muttering,
safety laws in this country.
And so there was this view that may be a post
Els Fox would be different, but it is actually gotten action,
so we were so that is because of Laughlin you're saying well, it's partly because of lots.
But it's also, I mean well. I had the same question you had. I think, probably and and many people have to take a look at fox. You know we. We all know that it's founded by an immigrant to America, Rupert Murdoch and
and that he has actually uhm spoken up on behalf of the immigrants from time to time,
and even criticized Trump before Trump. Was president on this issue, and and and at some point when Trump was talking about how immigrants from Mexico are criminals and rapists, I think, was in two thousand and fifteen Rupert Murdoch, tweeted back something about how actually immigrants from Mexico, like most immigrants, have lower crime rates than native born Americans. So we know that that Murdoch has a more level headed view and a more positive view of immigration. More accurate view, in fact,
immigration in terms of crime and and yet his network has
more than almost any. You can think of to really fail and xenophobia and anti immigrant sentiment. So all right when I was writing a talks, I was trying to understand. Well, how did you know how
is he rationalized the two and I interviewed a lot of people at Fox, and one of them was Greta Van Susteran who used to host a show there and then went on to host one and MSNBC, and she and she worked in other networks, and she said basically hey kid. You know don't kid yourself. It's about the bottom line with Rupert Murdoch
it's about the bottom line and I think the same is probably to prove his son Lachlan. There's a tremendous amount of money to be made by fanning fear it. It glues people's eyeballs to their screens,
It brings viewers and holds viewers and really the that is the business plan. That Fox follows, and- and
So, if you take a look at the murdochs, is people who are interested primarily
making money so long as that kind of politics draws view
That's what they're going to do.
As I mentioned earlier, there's been a lot of discussion about the connection between uh
and in El Paso, in some of the rhetoric, the king of the President's mouth and on Fox
Do you see a connection and some of the verbiage in the El Paso
fastow and the messaging on Fox yeah.
Think. It's there's a really disturbing echo of what you hear on Fox in the
El Paso, Shooter's manifesto, I'm incredibly disturbing, and what we've seen is that that fox in
recently is giving a platform to white nationalist and to the rhetoric of white nationalists, and this is this year.
Two thousand and nineteen uh before that
Paso shooting. There were at least seventy references on air on Fox to immigrants as being an invasion.
Some sort using this kind of the military threat language in discussion of immigration? It's the kind of thing that stirs hatred and fear, and you know so. Yes,
There seems to be a very, very disturbing echo there. So
There's been a lot of efforts, um too,
organize advertiser pork out to put pressure on advertisers from these companies. To you know, per claim in the
core values that through there for diversity or the firm, a gration reform, but advertise on Fox NEWS and there's been some success, at least in some advertisers backing off at least the more toxic shows, as I would refer to them.
But Fox is still doing quite well business wise or do they feel any business pressure at all? You know.
Advertise report cards or as much as anything of a public relations problem for Fox is more more than almost to the day of a serious business concerns. One of the one of the people who is trying to kind of put say this
Somebody who is very close into the Murdoch family said to me that you know the advertisers will maybe withdraw their advertising from whatever show is
here defensive at that moment and then move the dollars to another fox show. So it doesn't actually necessarily hurt Fox that much it's it's fox is quite cynical about these boycotts, but it does give them a black guy and and and it's a public relations problem. The
you know you mentioned Chris Wallace, Shep Smith is another fox personality who has at least at times expressed taking
the party line relates to Trump
I often wonder how it is that a lot of these new
to view themselves as journalists right they, even if
maybe personally conservative themselves, journalists,
You know whether there is a growing sense of discomfort within the new side to the things being said on the opinion side, because the opinion side or is it just sort of this- is the nature of doing business, because the opinion side pays for a lot of the new side
like. Is there any chance that someone's going to quit right in anger?
Frustration at what
both the racism that is happening in the
thanks, but also just sort of the property,
it happens during the day, even on the new side
over the years there have been people who have
occasionally I mean you've, got to the instances alsen Cammarata who's, a terrific host,
now on CNN and hit she is spoken out, and I actually interviewed from my piece- and you know
wouldn't she. She wanted to be here at a much more respectable news organization where a serious journalist can work, and she has talked about that and and and actually showed a lot of light on on what happens over at Fox, which is really some. Some other put their news. Practices are, are really disturb
if you take journalism seriously,
And I also wonder sometimes if the Megyn Kelly experience is a lesson for some folks at Fox that there may not be life
box that you have been poisoned to the fact that it is hard to succeed in a more traditional news environment in that after the Trump Bear right like when Allison left Fox was still
It is really bad to a lot of people, but it it was, I think, less publicly toxic than it is now yeah. I I mean I, I would think people going to Fox,
would have to take into account that it- maybe you know
if you want to go anywhere else afterwards. It's it's go anywhere else afterwards, it's because
concern. I would think for most of the serious news people who are working over there.
I wanted to switch topics briefly to your other
one of your one of your many other areas of expertise, but that is the.
Others, and you wrote what
I think it's one of the most important books written about politics in a very long time called dark money and where you cry,
so how conservative money primarily from the Cook brothers has influence politics in
I was wondering if you
a view on what how the cokes are adjusting to life in the Trump era, given that they were in
Point, if not opposed to the idea of Trump, is president in two thousand and sixteen well. For one thing we always
that the Coke brothers there's really only one coke brother who's really active anymore, and that's Charles Coke's, David Coke is kind of retired from the arena he's he's kind of in failing health, and so we talk
the Charles Coke and uh
you know when someone she's made a faustian bargain with the Trump administration he may not like their policies on immigration and um and he's anti big government in anyway, so he prob
Doesn't like their military spending, but he loves what they're doing on,
this in the environment and so he's his people, actually people who
with the coax over the years in in their political organizations, are all over the Trump administration, including vice President Pence and including many other people in
I think the key departments that have to do with the business that Coke has
the energy in the environment. It is it. Do you expect that they would play
if you control the twenty twenty election? At this point, the coax have an unparalleled private political machine.
In this country. It's a conservative machine and it will play
no matter, what in it, if, if it doesn't necessarily get behind Trump in a big way, it will get behind Senate races house.
Race is all the way down to school board. Races. It has nodes all across the country. It has an almost unlimited amount of money and it has a very strong agenda, which is to weaken the government and
can regulations and lower taxes and make sure that the government does nothing to come too? Stop climate change
they want to make sure that the country continues to use fossil fuels and which they sell.
I want to make sure that there's no carbon tax and they will continue to exert all kinds of pressure.
To make sure that that agenda served.
So in other words, even if they don't explicitly support trump, they will their efforts. Will aid Trump and his reelection most likely
There are, you know, are you I don't expect them to ever get behind a Democrat. They always say they deserve a Wilson like members. Do they actually? But you know, there's one or two Democrats over the years that they've supported in states where they've got business interests and that's and they have to, but basically it's a it's a it's a ruse whenever they say, oh we're going to take our money away from the Republicans they are. They always support to the most conservative candidates. They can find Jane. Thank
you so much for joining us? This is a fascinating. An
disturbing conversation and we will be tracking both Fox NEWS in the Coke brothers, throughout
election, so we'd love to have you back on as this election? Is this election unfolds? Well, thanks. Dad,
all right thanks to Jane Mayer, for joining us today and will talk to you next week by everyone
pod, save America is a product of crooked media. The show is produced by Michael Martinez, it's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seguin's are
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Transcript generated on 2019-11-07.