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David acts- or I will be here to talk about Democrats, mid term strategy where all recording from the University of Chicago together on the fifteenth anniversary of the day that Barack Obama announced his presidential campaign in Springfield Illinois, which makes us all Dan This tell me was fifteen years. I was a hundred percent positive. She had screwed the method, but no it if the aim Spain, Chicago the recording with you in person, dies Managua place. It is most definitely not our homes transverse reaction, when we I've done together in the studio was landfills. Words sitting close to you. I tested negative tone before we start check out the later. episode of parts of the world where Ben talks to Estonia, as Prime Minister Cockle us about her views on Ukraine and what it's like to be a NATO ally bordering Russia. I'm sure not great

new. Episodes of bites hit. The world drop every Wednesday also check out this week's pod, save the people or the IRA interviews destined Gibson about his roots, disability, justice work in recent justice, rising a war from the open society foundations, new episodes drop every Tuesday get to the news, so an tuesdays pod, we talked about how the organs he's decision to pass a formal centre of was Cheney and Adam kissing. Her the called the January six insurrection, legitimate political discourse, was just a horrific endorsement of violence but pray that politics and it seems like at least some Republicans now agree. One former currency official told them your times quote. It doesn't take David Axelrod or call drove to figure out that it wasn't the politically smart thing to do to bring that up. Since we have, we have more than hundred and forty republican leaders in former officials issued a joint statement condemning the and see for the censure. A bunch of republican Senator spoke out, including that Mcconnell, whose at this. The issue is whether

The currency should be sort of singling out. because of our party, who may have different views from the majority? That's not the job of the currency now, Obviously most of the mega shuts in Congress are still on board with the the party endorse political violence, government Are they literally ran away from a reporter when he was asked about this? Indulge trump, of course, was the statement attacking Mcconnell. But what do you think is going on here with Mitch and some of these other Republicans who are condemning this? I think they believe, and I think for a very good reason that they are on a glide path to winning the house and possibly the sun, and the only thing that can get in their way is reminding voters who they are, and it's not any. Don't you dont in that situation, when unforced error and the Republican Party our committee passing a formal resolution. Saxony put up a violence is the textbook definition of an unforced error, so they're trying to like high about why this is

hive off. So it's like always this extreme faction, like it's a freedom, God s words Some Yahoo is on Fox NEWS and spoke to the Republican Party itself, the body which rights, the rolls does the platform decides on the primary are run, and so it sort of it is a desperate attempt to do In spite of it had to distance? I saw a reserve might recall who's the ranking member on foreign affairs tucked her mouth, Martha rabbits about and he's like. While I am not a member of the republic and national com, really! Wouldn't try that no european public in Congress for you, I have no what the hour and see what is actually and for what is that? No, I mean, I think it's interesting to see the split, because it can also be at the pole of right wing media These people also because TED crews, like criticise Mitch, Mcconnell over his statement and said, we should call it an armed insurrection. That's what the Democrats call it. This is tat, grew still smarting from his gaff, where he got called our entire Karlsson show for calling it Domestic

her is so it mean it is. You still have a bunch of them that feel like they need to endorse this. But I do think that there are things interesting about. This is like when it happened, and we were talking about it on Tuesday. You know every time there, but we can harness and and crazy you're verse instinct is well, maybe no one's gonna care. Maybe this maybe we're beyond politics now, but clearly the party thinks this is awful, or at least the lot of party leaders like Mcconnell. If they don't think it's good politics, they think people are gonna care about that. That's it important section is, I don't think they think it's awful because, like morally endorsing political violence is awful gimme, some of that thing, leaving its bad politics yes, but it should remind all it's a good lesson for all of us that some things are still bad politics, it's a hit. If it, there was very little matter if it was good politics, it would be something legitimate discourse tee shirts appearance course we're also learning more about what Trump thought about the violent insurrection, particularly the chance about assassinating his vice president. Here's a clip

So that was just a figure of speech. Apparently, if your former president Trump promptly, in New York Times reporter Jeremy Peters quote. I think it was an expression. I dont think they would have ever thought of doing it. You know the expression I'm so excited to be here. I just want to hang my pants they its symbolism, is some people say adding itself on, it is the most obvious way to try to find a way to save it. They, what they meant to say what they want to hang with my pants. that is just a whole saying that, because we have been trying to make that a title in the world, while I may feel like it's, it's warrant is just simply not leave of all that at any moment. Everyone ahead with my pencil. They had to cope with something else: hey him with my parents. hang with so this is First time SAM, this year, the Republicans have been on the debate.

Save were now on day. Six of this story, like what lessons should Democrats draw from their predicament here, think there are two one is a cardinal rule of politics, which is you want to do everything we possibly can to focus the political discussion on issues that night, your base and divide theirs, and that is because we want you just what you it is in your interest to have your opponents divided. but also that some media works right for all the talk about ideological bias. What else the primary bias in media is conflict, and so, if republicans are fighting, other that is going to get coverage and he's gonna send the media to go ass, more republicans, to respond to the criticisms of it becomes a sulphur petrochemical. We know this because it's called with every rapporteur did for all of twenty twenty one about Democrats right. The second part of it is that I think it matters is. It shows that when we go on offence

Republicans make mistakes. We can actually drive a narrative and every was our mothers. A bunch of ads came out. People were pushing it and do we in simply rely on the media to do all the work. Democrats actually really pushed and we had some so who's gonna. Ask about that because I have not see. I thought that the media has been pushing. That's the whole time and I haven't really heard a lotta Democrats talk about it, but I have also been the idea was sent into the media. Lies in the media has not done a good job on this. By the all this up, Henry say like it's not an miss is not, I think, an accident of Europe in all these revelations about the findings of the January six Commission, thus far in the last week, right by whether, as a term phone laws things we're gonna talk about it. We can pretty clear that they are using this. The context of this story to push the January six narrative foreign now think that Spartan get oh yeah the. So the committee is yet have like what about the political side of the Democratic Party,

Have there been a bunch of ads about there is there had Biden hasn't said anything about lighter Biden has not to my knowledge, I haven't checked in on the White House. Briefing recently same, so I don't know whether that I imagine someone address Jan about this. Yet I'm sure we should probably know the janitor. Someone told us what it wasn't it It has not been the centrepiece, but there have been people pushing in their hat. There happen as the Boeing project Dinadan like in their sort of rapid fire way that came out. I think, where the day or the day after there has been the supermax, it's either going to use it. And the committee's report this morning are people are pushing on. They see the opportunity here just question whether we can be creative enough to keep it going beyond this week. I would have a line about in the state of the union like I wouldn't be to be careful because of the state of the union, and you could have Joe Biden up there being like you endorse political violence, but I would say,

If I gave you as I assume at some point being in the capital giving that speech, he will talk about January. Sixty given very forceful speech better on the anniversary, I would say something about, and that was political violence and no party should ever endorse that and then watch. I do the line so that, obviously all the Democrats and up and then someone like me, Mcconnell, who spoke out against it would have to stand up and down of lawyers and then watch the assholes and the party who agree with it sit down and began a news that video to make one comment. Now. Am I right in saying that the rolling between five people there Jesus. I decided to see that Hitler, which is like Lisbon last year during covert. What what why we, I think, that's what like Kevin these said about Nancy Policy. I think she is not formally. What I will say. I hope you don't do that. Twenty five people yeah! That's that's weird! How do you make

There we had a little bit about doesn't use day, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on it like. How do you make the republican parties embrace of political violence? An issue that moves people went voters, either a may not have been attention this or be our thinking. You know that's an issue in politics that was in the past. It was January six m. I care about inflation. I care about Kobe at all that stuff. I think they're too we step back from this. I think we have to serve refrain. How we think about this. I give you look at poles today. There is death not an argument for making this a centrepiece. Firmest, also think it is not politicians. The politicians should not look at poles today and talk intolerable people care about. Today. We should pick me. issues that we believe we want to be of highest sailor. On election day and then spend the next several months. Making those high sites.

immigration was not top of mind and twenty sixteen Donald Trump made a top of might and he won because If you look at this issue and you will get republicans people of islands like a trump promising parties are all incredibly unpopular positions, for even for as many Republicans is, who believe the big lie, or I tell themselves or pulsars ITALY. The big lie: that's majority republicans, not. Sport would have an agenda respects. They do not support pardons for these people, the independence of departed Democrats even more strongly and so in an ideal world we were not think about inflation on election day there. Thinking about this, and so what can we do to make it top of light now? The other part of this is we haven't. We heard this false binary choice. between democracy and process issues are generally sex or whatever else and clinical kitchen tables yeah we're running him in his against Republicans, our may. The main point here is: we have to convince voters. The Republican should not be in control of anything

and I don't know how you run- that campaign with help for hangout that they have a dangerous unhinge leader who wants a present again and the party is officially sanctioned political violence. They haven't, they have an agenda, that's based on vengeance and they have sanctioned political violence if in so like it goes back to part of the narrative that we sort of developed about Trump and twenty twenty, which is chaos do you want chaos terrain. If these people in power, the Gonna go after their enemy is they ve already sanction political violence? You could see instability and chaos the streets with these people- and I was even thinking- have you been following this canadian trucker thing? Oh, yes, I actually accidentally stumbled on Fox NEWS. I live in covering the canyon truckers that did that these truckers are protesting vaccine mandates in Canada and These trucks are lined up in Ottawa, trend to like block traffic and everything else, and I was leading that there has been

movement in the United States from some right wing groups to start doing the same thing. The department of Homeland Security warned that it could interfere with that said the union, a super ball and that's it. One issue where you're like people, I don't need to look at a poem- What people in this country not gonna, want that there are gonna, want huge trucks parked in their streets to because the Republican Party is past about vaccine mandates. However, you feel about that report, which is a key issue that has majority strong majority support so that the kind of thing that, like I think, framing starting to frame the Republican Party as these people are chaotic and out of control and endorse, broken violence, and if you put them back in power like there's gonna, be some real. It's gonna affect your life and, if you think about the three legs of the coalition, that gave definite one for Democrats, an eighteen and twenty, it's our base. Turning on incredibly high rate, it is people who got engaged in politics for the first time because of the crisis that was Trump and people who switch sides because of Trump

independence Republicans, you will come back for the parties, Romany voters, all those people to win. We have to get this. We will back and reminding people who Robin bodies, not some generic party with bad positions on inflation or taxes that they are deeply dangerous party, and I think so. How do you square the circle between, as you do have to write like the inflation is in people? you have to talk about it in a way. If I were the pandemic- and I think one way to do, it is to frame the Republicans and their extreme positions and that there are forces division that is blocking progress on issues that the vast majority Americans care about minimum wage dealing with inflation massive, you know basket watch over my later but come in said, Psmith Vaccines, common sense measures around the pandemic is to frame the Republicans as division, because if you look Pulling Wanna thinks it is really hurt by mainly made things, are the conditions on the ground and endemic. He said our, but he ran on this promise of unity and you look

America and doesn't seem very unified right now and Pew did a battery of issues looking at home, we know where people have lost their most confidence in Biden. Over the last in the north and the issue where he is he's fearing. The worst is uniting the country and one way it like. He can't we he can't united, but you neighbour, can do is point out the people who are dividing it and I think dividing at four at the dangerousness of that division to point out how that division impact right through people's lives is away somewhere in. There is a message they could be very compelling for two thousand and twenty two yeah we talked about this before, but there is a there's, a difference between running a campaign. Your save like I need to find the country, and I have the power to like work with Republic

and bring them over to my side, which not hadn't worked out said I don't erase the beverage friend where many of the executive, though that that is one improvement of that, but many of us know at the time by imbroglio resold out a little bit because of his Senate past, but I do think the message about look most of this country or or big majorities in this country agree on X, Y and Z issues and there's an extreme faction standing in the way. So we have to defeat them and elect people who are going to work together to solve these problems is a powerful message actually much more realist. than saying I'm gonna get me because work with me when we often bike sort of harassed Democrats, but don't talk about process or cover s, thoughts about poles, but there is some real.

She'll science and political theory behind pointing out over and over and over again that what we want is the image is the majority position in this country. It is social proof that we want to use that to bring people on board and also helps hive off that other side. As being pointed this out of touch minority, where do you think Donald? document retention policy fits into this mid term strategy. The New York Times reported on Wednesday that there was classified in for me contained in the fifteen boxes of official Whitehouse documents. The trump definitely have taken with him tomorrow. Logo hastens return them and just force our record according to Maggie Haber men, soon to be released book. He also literally flush documents down the toilet? Ok, I got a lot of questions me too. I know I'm Should Maggie here to answer that question. One is. Was he flushing them down the toilet like a drug dealer in a movie with a cup?

the door like he knows now who was at the door like malaria, is arguments I got you a lark eyes: let us only the Mahler Babo had comes to life and is outside the elegant was the was the Supreme Court Martial, their impeachment Eagle re to take him away? well, you know there are those stories about how he would rip them up and put him in the trash. Then staff would have to take them back get so maybe he read them that in fact the only way he can and run the archivist was to function as well, as we now know that the USA has shredder. Is that there's a burn bags that they come round when he is literally weapon That's what they're! My hope is there the relatively Burma we ve done, I would the other they are. There's like it's easy to laugh about this by it's not like document retention protocols have Replay he won't hurt, you decided on a like. I know I know, but I see others too and unlike this is infuriating, they hypocrisy is of course stunning, as it always is, but it's like a it's like a flashing

light to me. That's like trap Democrats trap, do not go down the rabbit hole of Donald Trump Document retention policy problems. Look should he be invested for this. Yes, of course, also be recommended. The archivist yet archivist the justice department- hey this this will probably not lunar Mew guys, into it. It is like what happened to Sandy Berger for this you're too young to remember he was the National Security Advisor for Bill Clinton. I believe he stopped some classified information, his socks and and walked out of the way was illegal acts, something like known you without Red one other begun. Some trouble did it. pockets saddening, but are you you knew enough? Not a magazine should have let you down the toilet, his beard, that's it! two big! No, now that the trouble with Trump is as president. Of course, you have the power to declassify anything. So it's probably a hard case to bring against him because he could, I was I was declared- was declassified by my powers. Trump now you can't declassify after you ve become president. So

Yes, I was wet. When did those documents we did. It was a before noon and we can all get out with that. I do not know how the relevant committees and jurisdiction should look into this. I do not think this is a lotta is something that we all should spend a lot of time. I think we can talk this under your chaos. Theory, yeah yeah. I guess it's what we need the right we're going to go about yeah. We had Hilary Z males for a year. Now we got this guy's document retention policy, he's flushing things down the toilet, he said. Hang. My is just an expression there endorsing. nickel violence, because they want to getting good with them like. This is what you want again for another four years. I do think that's a powerful. Our party, America is broadly by sundays. The first and only air, dried dog fruit, most normal dog food, is hot extradited to know what that means. Well, here is what it means it means is put under x

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the world according to Mark Wahlberg and he's wearing a vest pod save America is brought you by policies having life insurance through your job may not be enough. Most people need up to ten times more coverage to properly provide for their families. Typically, life insurance gets more expensive as you age smart to get a policy sooner rather than later policy. Genius. Is your one stop shop to find it the insurance, you need click, the link in the description or had the policy genius, dot com and answer a few questions. In minutes. You can compare personalized quotes from top companies, define your lowest price, you'd, say fifty percent or more and life insurance by comparing quota policy genius. The team of licensed experts at policy genius will help you understand your options and apply for the policy, choose the paths

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we're not going to eradicate this virus were quote heading out of the full blown pandemic phase and many hopes all covered restrictions will soon be a thing of the past. but CDC director, Rochelle and Ski set on Wednesday that, while her agency is working towards new mass guidance and encouraged by the current trends, high hospitalizations and deaths in some parts of the country mean quote? We are not there yet, which is a message that was echoed by Jan Saki during her White House briefing. We are internally discussing, of course, what it looks like to be in the face of the fight against other covered pandemic. Where does not disrupt, everyone's daily lives, where for moving on and living lives free of hopefully masks at some point and many of the restriction that we ve all been living through over the past two years, but as the federal government. We have a responsibility to rely on data on science, on the medical experts that something the present committed to during the campaign. They convinced they confirmed during this briefing. There

continuing to evaluate and there's ongoing discussions and work happening, internal dim. Why We think all these democratic governors are left in the mass mandates. Right now has as the virus and the signs changed has the politics change. Does it both its both I mean, as you point out, cases are receiving the receding quickly. The states were talking and are one of the highest vaccination rates in the country. I think when we were guess I'm on the politics political back us we have to do that, but I think that using the term politics somewhat cheapens what's happening here, because these are guidelines that are only enforced. By fraud can set. I dare not cops going around enforcing mass mandates, vaccine mandates and mass mandates indoors are being enforced by We stirs hostesses, store clerks people who are society when you compare with wage to so is only going to work as long as the vast majority of people think it makes sense and people's positions on this have changed his armor crisis hit and they have done frustrating. We have to adjust our rules

some sort of as safe as humanly possible. For as many people as possible release valve to ensure that people can continue you that smart things and there's not a bride scale, rebellion against any and all research even want to some extent. I also think, let's put the politics entirely aside for a second and just talk about the science on this, so this debate between the democratic governors they're doing this now, and and the cdc which really, when you listen to Wednesday, and especially when you listen to factory like this, a sight of sort of a short term problem right now like in by me. The end of March at the latest. I guarantee CDC will be here as well, partly because the numbers eventually will come down to match the CDC metrics, but the thing to know what the CDC metrics, as you know, they qualify county.

Low or moderate transmission, which is what you need to get rid of the mask mandate, just using case numbers and test positivity too metrics that stopped being really useful, predictors of hospitalizations and death. When we have. variants, and then we had vaccines, so they sort of have old, metrics manner. They're, trying to figure out new metrics, like just in L, a county like we saw of indoor mask mandate, even though California's lifting theirs, but our health regularity, said that, like four outdoor events, which, if you have big mega, offensive to mask and allay they're gonna change the metrics to hospitalizations over seven days, as opposed to cases in positivity cases and has positive. You dont really tell you a lot anymore about the real danger of the virus since wherein mccrone world with a lot of x so the CDC got nothing. I think it's temporary, but I do think like long term like people should, I don't think people are going to feel very comforted

hearing that like well the politics change so now, I'm not gonna be safe anymore, but I dont think you need to feel that way like I get the fear and anxiety that still exists out there, like you and I they'll have on vaccinated children like I've. I canceled holiday plans do not rely on a plane like we ve been navigating this too, like it's. It's tough but like the science has changed and the sites is changed because the virus has changed, because we have actually like the bad news here is as doktor folk who said this week like we never eradicate this virus, and I think that something the peoples give over now, like the scientific consensus right now is that cover nineteen will always be in. Regulation even after COMECON is over, it will always be a threat, and that's no matter how much vaccinating masking testing we do. It will always here and like the whole idea about covert zero. It's like not supported by scientific fact. It's a fantasy, but the Good NEWS is

If you are vaccinated and boosted, you are protected against severe disease and death. How protected the latest CDC data shows that only one out of every one million boosted Americans have died of covert one out of a million. What about long covert, you might ask! most comprehensive and precise study to day on vaccination and long covert from research and Israel found that quote. Vaccinated p all were no more likely to report symptoms of long covert than people who ve never had covered at all I repeat, vaccinated people were no more likely to report symptoms of long covert than people who never caught covert at all. Now, maybe you're thinking, that's all. Good. I still want to get sick. Maybe you, You know compromise. Maybe you live with someone who's, Munich compromise or someone who's, otherwise vulnerable. Maybe just wanna get sick. Getting sex acts. The good news there is if you were in an anti five or a cane eighty five mask even

if no one else around you was wearing one, you are still protected from covered one way masking works. Doctor Jones, Alan, whose a covert and ventilation expert at the Harvard School of public health? He knows the stuff. This was his quote. When taken instead of going to Washington Post if you are vaccinated boosted, and wearing a well fitted and ninety five or similar mask endorse your risk. strongly low. I mean there's not much else in life. It would have as low a risk. Is that so that's pretty now again doesn't cloth mass gotta get your ninety five York can end if I've gotta make sure it's fitting fitted well but, like I do think some of this conversation around mass mandate is a conversation. That's based on a situation that we had twenty twenty, when there were no vaccines and when we weren't dealing with the various that we're dealing with now, there there's my peace that I had to say on that

I just a bit. I undertake. I understand the fear and anxiety that their because first of all, there's been a lot of mixed messaging and also partly that's the fault of the CDC, but also the it's like a whole new pandemic, you know like once we had vaccines in one's delta. Hitman hit in hit like things change, pretty rapidly I dont, think everyone caught up and that's not the fault of everyone like everyone has been going through it, but like we should feel some comfort from the science now in this is where it can be different or the repressive countries depending on vaccination rates, but it's also where schools in workplace policies better. Why? Because, even if you say to me you're vaccine Your boosted, if you get covered his like, is overwhelmingly likely to be possibly mild, compared to what we feared a year or two ago, but still the complications, and it's not like getting a bad cold, because if I get it back hold my daughter's preschool doesn't shut. right or I'll, have to quarantine away from my family. All these other things, and so we have to right size everything to

here we are now and look if we get a new variant a year from now. two years on. We have to change every. We have to change things again depending on where looks like this is the most important thing, because you can see another variant coming in six months. That's God forbid! like if it's worse than mccrone or more virulently Delta was then you know, and you may like. Why did they? up the mass mandate. That was a huge mistake. No, if things change, if the virus changes again, we have to be ready to change with it. But if you are not going to drop amassed mandate when COMECON receipts and again, we can quibble over exactly when we're saying that its fully receded can happen differently happen differently, different parts of the country, but once it fully, if, if you're not to to drop a mass mandate, then then you have to answer the question: why are you actually willing to drop the mask midday because it's gonna be here However, you know like we but the mass media. Now I was still in place before COMECON Head and we had very low levels of iris there, but it wasn't low enough to have the CDC threshold, so the real good

are. Are we gonna have a mask mandate forever and if not, what are the metrics for that? And if, after a huge wave recedes, were now there's a ton of immunity in the population, both because of vaccines and because, unfortunately, a lot of people infected like that seems to be the best time. I don't know what else you would lift the mass meant it now capable and many of whom have spent the last four years, waging a war against lifesaving vaccines and other covered restrictions. There now crying hypocrisy. Looking put Democrats inoffensive over this issue. This week, Stacy Abrams came under fire, proposing mass glistened a photo with masked children she'd only taken off her mass to give a speech, but poligized. Nonetheless, LOS Angeles, mere Eric our city gun trouble for taking a mask was photo with MAGIC Johnson at the end of sea championship, especially because he said that during the picture was quite literally holding his breath for two seconds. Lots of very funny didn't inhale jokes on twitter. After that. What do you think about this? Like Howard Democrats, the ones ending up on the defensive over this, and how do you

and of us if your democratic politics and then there's a simple rule which is, if you are a elected official, you should abide by the guidelines you put in place a hitherto very simple right away Maybe it's not even just covered related issues, in general view, pass a law that says you have to wear a seatbelt, whereas about right so and then, if you get caught making a second people, do make mistakes, don't come up with a really stupid excuse, claiming to not be exhaling or inhaling during the period of time. I gotta just, do it more broadly. You know these politicians can I use better staff work, I think, but more broadly, we have to go off its. We are constantly a defensive crouches, our natural state, of being as a democratic. and we have got off its. How is it possible that people Ecstacy Abrams or on the defensive when the governor of that fucking state, who was her most likely opponent? has been spreading misinformation about vaccines. Why

about the severity of the of the virus, and if it would, equally in early on before he bore vaccinated, putting in place a deeply Europe positions not supported by science. We have to go off its as ITALY. In does that's, because this ever she went on very aggressive office when she was odd, but the America. Last week bath is reported as a party. We have to call out not the people necessarily who are investigated themselves. The politicians in the media, people who are lying to them about their exit. The vaccines are, the greatest scientific miracle of our life, in the bite him has rolled them out in a really efficient way and they would be even more people. Vaccinate right now, if it wasn't for the Republicans waging a war against vaccines. Running so much just information or or at least closing up to people who are spreading just information about this, and we seem to have like forgotten that you know, like these vaccine,

and the fact that, like I know that initially before dealt in armour, was like, while the vaccine protect against all infection, that's great. Very few vaccines actually do that. The flu vaccine certainly doesn't do that, but they have saved hundreds of thousands of lives and cried, should be on the often about that and be proud of that and talk about that all the time and not sit there and be like in getting like a whole arguing about masking and testing in all the other kind of stuff like, but I do think that the bite ministration was on strongest footing and I know there's like a problem with just calling at the pandemic of the investigative right we're all going through this. But when the vitamin distraction was talking about the lifesaving power of the vaccines at how good they were and and and hitting back against people who were spreading disinformation with vexing. That's why were also on the strongest political footing, and I will say that, like not much has changed about the virus at me. They

still have that message today. That message is still available to them and I think that, like as we're seeing these universal mask, mandates drop like that's, going to be, but the best political posts for the democratic debate. Ok, when we come back, we will talk to Our old friend, David Axelrod about politics. Pod, save America is brought by relief band is somethin, making you anxious o little boy, maybe maybe the news, and then in the news making the ancients sure or here then you ve got look out relief band relief band is the number one FDA cleared Anti, not your has been clinically proven to quickly relieving effectively prevent anxiety, induced Naga and vomiting, while relief stimulates a nerve and the rest. The travels to the part of the brain, the controls not from anxiety or other ailments, then it blocks the signal. Your brain ascending to yours like telling you that you're sick, if you deal with

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a big Stockholm from websites and online stores to marketing tools. Analytic square space of the online platform to build a beautiful online presents an run. Your business go to square space are complex for a free trial and when you are ready to launch use the Africa crooked to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website or domain. with us today. The director of the University of Chicago Institute politics of hacks on tap former senior adviser, Barack Obama and our good friend and Mentor David Axelrod, ok, more title suggests gonna fell. I was using I'm all right. I guess what an introduction, but I demand How are you guys so good to see you, and it's got to be here with you in Chicago recent, at the university on an auspicious day yeah. I know we're we're gonna talk about that too. We were just talking about. What's been the news specifically, the US split between

by an administration and these democratic governors over lifting mask mandates. What's your take on us I'll. Tell you what this whole thing has been so hard. I mean in fairness. I think the administration made it harder because their communications on it has been stop him. You know the CDC is some not exactly distinguished itself is communicators, but I'm gonna be taught anything. So well are well, yes, don't do that, don't look! the idea in the headlines and try and keep your stories straight. Those are too big rules, but you know. It's the governors are under tremendous political pressure. I just don't think we have our arms around how much of a funk this countries in an interesting how profoundly we are traumatized by what we, by what we ve been through. I think years from now people will look back and say well that word yes, that was

Epic Lee catastrophic event in young people have been so knocked off balance by it, and this these masks have become emblematic people just want to get on with their lives and there's an enormous pressure on these governors, some of it around the school's. I think that's a underappreciated issue the Democrats going to have to deal with and I think there was funding- and you know the CDC and the government is doing what I said they do, which is working to listen to the scientists who don't have to run for anything. so there you have the pressure. I mean I admire them for trying to do what they think is best for the public health, and they should do that. But there are political cost to it, and you see it in the contrast with what the governors are doing and it gives us a challenging now because it doesn't feel like theirs. A definitive scientific consensus, even if, even if you separated out the politics like, I think the cdc

couple weeks is gonna, be where some of these winners. Are we amended the downs again debating modus operandi there, like the caboose on the train, vitamins station once again feel dragged behind. I mean it's really problematic limit does contribute to what I think is a larger problem for him, which is in us. so much seems out of control right now and he doesn't necessarily see encompass seamen command and this one of the reasons, because it illustration. As these mixed messages. They tend to be late on this public health stuff. So yeah, I mean what wise people that that unite. All of us know how said from the beginning, that there should have been a one person in charge of every single bit of communication on this virus in the administration they, Canada

communications are for just for the virus and they didn't and So there's been a lot of Ziggy and Z. going out there and its contributed to a sense of what may be. Rather, arms around this thing is but always in the White House. It's not a policy problematic communication. We only for you to have it. I got some recent unemployment when I get the house this that would be any like that that is the rescue right is that there is no question of communications, have contributed to the problem, but the problem is also the violence by the virus was problem. I'm not saying that yet the whole thing was, can run on other virus. Look reality of the virus. Is we don't we dont? Really? have control of the virus. The virus has control of us when the virus to say the generate a new, a new strain. Then it sends us back again and in you

it be great. If the rest of the world were vaccinated and we have because they are all these things start in Africa, where seven percent of the people or are vaccinated in some of the other places were Lauren vaccinate, but now you're right- and I mean I don't I don't want to be I mean I I do feel. The CDC thing is a little bit. You know don't be hard on the white us I mean- the mobilization behind the vaccinations was, I think, an extraordinary effort frustrated only by politics, but no hundreds of millions of Americans are vaccinate now otherwise, we'd be. We wouldn't be sitting here at the same table talking to each other, so binds any of the city and speech a couple weeks. This is a moment of at least try to its end up probably behind these governments but Sophronia his biggest stage. Refrain. That's like what advice would you give about how to do that so interesting, these circus ovum working,

something on this, but I think we learned a lesson in the Obama administration, which is don't claim more progress than people are willing to tolerate. I mean objectively, we were creating jobs. Things were getting better but People were feeling that in their lives- and I do think he has to go in there- is it. You notice press conference on January nineteenth on the anniversary of his prayer of of his now now eurasian He was very energetic about saying, wait. You know not six me in jobs, historic, you know all the stuff claiming all his credit. Then he had a little too minute interlude where he said yeah, but you know we ve been through Hell and all that and then back to the the pushing was achievements and you know how it is feel that in the wider, the God damn it, we ve done great work. Do you in a bad situation?

We produced all this progress. Why dont people appreciate it and if we just say it more, if we just PETE, it acts I feel it unite. This was like every speech reality the zest, while also because I think, in the end, our white House, I think, oftentimes ways at the beginning wrong, wanted to really claim that's his modus operandi accomplishments in, and you were always pushing on make sure that we align with how people are feeling, I always wonder, like should apply and be a barometer of how people are doing good or bad at all. Or should he be saying here's what I believe, here's what I'm fighting against or here's? What fighting for so then he looks a little more active as opposed to narrating, whether the countries doing well early somewhere in banal. I understand, but I think it's important to acknowledge. You know I do

still believe what I believed back then, which is you have to link up with people's experience, and I mean I do think you have to acknowledge what we said a few minutes ago. This was a traumatic experience. This has been a traumatic experience and, are all kinds of offshoots of it? You know the mental health, mental health, he I think you, obviously you recognise the hives that has been lost right first, no oil yon look suicides are up, don't violet in the home in on the streets are up. Drug overdoses are up, people are stressed Anna, and so you know and an here's Joe Biden, whose superpower

his empathy yet, and I just think he needs to show some of that before he gives people confidence that here the steps were taking, and you know this is what the future is going to look like. But you know if you, if you have your hyperbolic about claiming claiming successes it in the wrong way. It can backfire on you, so my big advice in would be square up with it, where the countries give people their. I mean. Americans have you know soldiers through this and there been allowed a heroic people, Simon Healthcare Workers. By the way I mean so, you know give people there there props and and So that means Europe but resist those who will come to you and say just tell him everything you ve done

because one more, no one time unless you tell em and if you just you have big audience and if you just tell my good things, are, will feel better and they'll give you credit and you come on. It's like I found my life was pretty shitty, but then I heard Joe Biden say, recreate a bunch of jobs. I guess I do a lot better. You know what you know. What that does you know what that does? It makes him look out of touch and the thing that he least can afford is looking out of touch, because that's exactly what his opponents want to say about that he's. You know he's doddering old guy was out of touch. I mean the phantom matters, but it does have a kind I mean I was appreciated in the White House that he does have kind of an intuitive sense of how the middle class thinks about help but every day people say. I think it is a function of him and gone home to Wilmington all the time, but He had a better sense of where the country was than most people in Washington, and he just needs to reconnect with that,

what what advice would you give to house and Senate candidates running in competitive districts in this matter? yeah well, you know I noticed when he went to Pennsylvania last week. A lot of people have a conflict on their calendar, and made him at the airport always are add side, but does look if he's sitting. There are forty one percent there, not necessarily gonna, want him around and they're, not necessarily gonna want to attach themselves to the one thing I would tell these democratic candidates you can try and separate yourself from the present, but it never works. I mean you know, What you should try and do as best as possible is help him beer excessive, raise those numbers, because, if he's at forty one percent democratic and get their asses kicked. If he is closer to fifty it'll be a much more competitive alive. And so and right now he's sitting at forty one year we all sink or swim together on this

Yeah I've never been realized. They never believed that Europe can. It's never believe does expose politicians. The for who they are or a lot of them. I mean it's like you know. It's there s first and thanks thanks for everything, Mr President and boom, and pushing you lost decisive stupids, like unlocking my picture, you like. Are you familiar with Photoshop? He figures, those very high integrity, recover consultants, and I can put your pictures from ITALY. We need Photoshop because most of them appeared with him when things were better right, you know. So I don't know. I don't have a lot of sympathy for those guys. I mean you know it's a tough spot in this.

I mean you beg Murphy. My hacks on tap partner said you know it turns out that covert is it kills. Presidents, and you know, I think it's very very likely that Donald Trump got gets reelected, but for Toby and Joe Biden benefited from that during the election he's now paying the price for coal, because everything, including you know, inflation, is an offshoot right of

of the virus? So you know, and as you guys point out, I mean you can spin it. You can do it everyone, but the virus is the virus in the virus, will do the virus wants to do Dan? I've been talking a lot about how to frame the Republicans in the mid term. Like do you talk about them is extreme, MR, they out of touch. Are they in it for themselves like? What's your, what would your frame be about the Republican Party in amateur while the question? What is what is it that is most concerning concerning people? I do think that I think there's a general sense if things are kind of ETA control and I think that lot, lack of control and lack of order is is either people. And now you have Kevin Mccarthy same ok, I'll, tell you what our platform is. We're gonna, reinstate, Paul, go sir. We're gonna reinstate the M t, or is it empty

G and we're going to throw out of sheer force of his committees and we're gonna and we're gonna reap right. You know revenge and sun. Everyone who is on Dal trumps hit list and essentially bring me chaos and less cooperation to the Congress, and I You know, I don't know whether this is a winning argument, but I certainly would test it. If I were Democrats, is this really is. This is what they are offering is acting to make you feel better. Will that be good yeah. That's where I would be looking, I mean you know. I know there are people who believe that you just run flat out. trumps, all shore, whose you know areas back the lions den in the trenches for years, brilliant media consultancy and Mandy Brunwalde have this pack and it's all about going right at Trump. I think it's untested theory as to whether you

can go at trumpet and election where he's not on the ballot and have the effect that you want. But two tangentially weave him into it. If you say these in his throat, and they want to bring trompe in politics into the Congress. To so that will have more chaos, more disruption, more vengeance, yeah. You know it requires a a bit of nuance, which oftentimes think that's another time. Democratic, agent strategist, don't was an inkling, I'm Glenn, trumped guinea now you are running, for I think it is the difference. Is that it's the idea of the difference between the way Mccall of handled it in the way Newsome handled it and Newsome did not was a little more depth in California, in the rear and recall in the review also had a guy running. Who is the leading Republican? Can it Larry elder who, in fact work

right. You know how him a trunk klondiker right, every almost positions right now young can, you know, had an advantage because he didn't have a real primary there and he only had to kowtow to trump minimally and he did a smart thing. He focused on close to the ground issues that touch people's lives. You know everybody focuses on the critical Is there anything, but you guys are young and you have kids, I mean partly so young are either of them in school. Prenatal mask, but I mean I just Think you can overestimate the frustration that parents are have felt you know about, having their kids home missing a year a school and then not knowing when they could go back and what will the rules be when they go back and all that stuff I mean they're, so many things that were really bugging people. On course, MC caully stepped into into it when he said parents, So let me ask you got the h its keeps occurring to me.

the right answer on all of this stuff. The school related stuff is yeah. Parents obviously should be involved in the education of their, kid, but politicians shouldn't right now we it's funny. Tested this? There is a change research Paul that we did and we tested and argument have let you go. like a machine where she manner- and this was before the hawk before the Virginia election. We tested asean embryos in September in August September and we test that? A frame that was. We don't want republican politicians dictating what our classrooms teach our kids, in Washington. Just as we want an end, it was the best testing for tell you what man, I still think I would be pursuing this. I mean you have power Petitions like deciding what books. Kids cannon can't read politician who very likely haven't, read any of them right and don't live, your community. I are some. May I think I would definitely go there. Then they have way overstepped. Yes,

Yeah, so I mean here there's things to work with, but I mean you know, I'd love. I mean I always am conscious of the fact that we all think we're so freakin smart and then you tell something- and it's like you know what that's I don't think their people just for you, I'm in their counter intuitive. So you really find out, but I think there are some pretty good theories to pursue her sue. Does For me, I think it has to start with: what's really bothering people and then why are we different than republicans arise, issues ride me. We want to turn it into a choice. They want to make it a referendum, it something that sort of the basin in the course of the film another deep I mean there is. You know I mean they have stuff that they are very good at setting up strong men and creating caricature

to run against. Like I don't really know, I mean there's, you know the representative from Saint Korea Bush, and there are some people who are just emphatically for defending but but man I should know wholehearted Democrats who who get who say that an end, yet there, the Republicans or very disciplined about minutes. It is something that their good at their good at. the party of enforcing a party line on the negative attacks. You know what they're bad at is. You know how to figure out how to keep trump from pulling them back into constant conversations about two thousand and twenty and January sixth, that's their curse me. That's their festoon bargain right there. You know they have to pledge. did a trump to survive in their own primary and they in turn-

our incinerating themselves, relative to general elections, because and you can see and on the clearly is that so it looks like he's got. You know every time he talks about this. It looks like he's got like adjective, but he This looks like that. I don't know whether it was demanded an expression so we're sitting here and there Then a recipe of Brok upon this presidential announcement to place of yours apparent Springfield yeah. I was we watch the speech since I hadn't heard in years, and it seems like it's not just from a different political arab league. from a different universe. What I, as you, have any reflections up and you do the ok of you go and not one given the middle of a family You know I, I guess a few things

brought me some of the same frustrations that he articulated. There are exactly the same for us outrageous that people feel today about the disk about the things that motivates Washington about the inability to deal with big things. I think those things you are consistent. Any people say how can people vote for Morocco bomb and Donald Trump. You know both of them were in some ways. a sailing the status quo in Washington I mean I would draw this too tightly because you you're trumps was rated was based in xenophobia and racism and all of that- but you know this- is the vote so there's a through line between that. I mean the idea that we can overcome these things and we can bring about change and the idea of hope I mean somehow hope, which seems like such a wholesome and good work

has been tarnished dislike. Hope what kind of idiot are you you know so, I you know, that part seems a little sepia colored. You know, and you you find yourself, some e g were we foolish to feel that way, but I'll tell you guys something. I was over this. surprise you guys over yesterday at my favorite Delhi, man is guaranteed Yes, as a guy comes up to me, I really Are you guys to hear this because I hope you feel as good about it as I did. Guy comes up to me. This part, you should feel good about. He was a photographer and who I'd known and he's he's dealing with cancer but he he said, you're not been dealing with this for nine years. I just want to come over and tell you- and I hope you share this with the president. I would be dead without the affordable care act and I have these conversations off and people come up to me.

that is really bracing cause a kind of remind you. We, you know what this really is all about, No, we get so wrapped up in the red team versus the blue team. Shit and then you realize everyone's while you you break through and you have a chance to do something that really will impact on people. Lives in a positive way- and you know you guys lived through it- how unbelievably hard that was that, and you know how can he was out of to losing an He it was his determination, along with Nancy Blowsy, but his determination well I remember him of either of you were in the oval when someone whose name I won't mention, but not gonna travel for doing it. Forests are now said, you know. Maybe we should throw out you go for something smaller further and the president says

who fill shall arrow are legislative director Phil? What do you think the chances are passing this thing and fill says what depends how lucky I feel, Mr President, and that in the present just breaks out laughing and he says Phil, I'm a black in Iraq. Hussein over, Madam President, is, I feel, like the everyday but you know he he refused to give in here fused, even knowing that it my customary election- and he said it, he said This may cause me reelection and of course that's why you know I may standard speech. Joke is oh, I love them so much because he listened to me so but here, but he but that, but that made you want to run through a wall for the guy because he basically said there are bigger things, then winning an election and it's what you do once you

back when we pass affordable, correct. You guys may remember here that party on the balcony, largely cuss Michel, was out of town you get away with not entirely, and he and he had he allowed himself, a few martinis, which was usually a weekend thing, wrote him it, and he came into my office next, any he was like the worse for wear and we started talking and he said I am- he said that was the best knight. Maybe that was the best knight of my whole career. and, I said really more than. more than winning the election election night, there was any No! No! No! That's just the duchess get you into the game, but this This is what it's really about any really believe there, and then you see that guy a man is in. You realize yeah that his that's. This is what satisfying. Mrs what's real, so Yeah there was up. There is

Canada, sepia colored quarrel data these talks as it to his ear. Almost a naive sounding, but on the other hand he paid off on a year. He did for sure. You know me I guess I had their reaction just because of the extremism of the Republican Party today, and you know you can argue without he's fights forever, but it does seem like something has shifted politically, even though much of what he said still so much of recent then still rings true. Today I wait for the country to come together. Yeah, I mean Well- let's repeat his off, stated king: what about this? The the arc of the moral University is long, but it bends toward justice long and right now it's not bending but you know you have play the long game and we We have to survive this period, but now I'm

sitting here the universe you should cause. I work with young people all the time, and you know gimme a begging. Me hope and I just feel like the net. turn the wheel is going to be What you're, saying and Obama? I think you know people always asked me well. Is this a backlash to him because he was a black man? I think that that, yes, the races, an element of this. But it's it's more than that. He was, in so many ways a symbol of change of chain of a changing country and became an easy kind of target. As a result, of that but changes commie changes doing so and also the entire history of America has been the story of backlash to progress where spent racial progress or any kind of progress in this country. Rankers progress, there's backlash and when people keep via its-

You wrote speeches like it's easy now, you're, quoting you said that this is quoting Barack Obama using words. He wrote I think it was more like watching that speech is easily can see all those people there, and this is what this incredibly diverse crowd and, if you're so hopeful and think like how is that even possible must needs, but it's also like watching that are also territorial back to house All politics was at that time we were coming out of burning in the Iraq war. Yes, TAT was a thousand backlash too that yeah and everything that was going on the scandals and with Republicans in Washington time delay. Avram often all that and then Obama was specifically pushing again That's him and obviously the make washing work better and work with Republican. Stop would not does not play now. It does not well, in particular in the speech that barometer

The quicker hidden set up, but I do like I do think that there is still a true, maybe even more, of an appetite for that sort of hopeful unifying message coming out of what we're in right, yeah a better. It is going to have to it- will have to adjust to the circumstances and it'll have to it. The language may be, but the concept look democracy is is for a battle between cynicism and hope? right now. Cynicism is on the march, but I think our people who want to be who you know who in the secret councils? you know of their home and stuff that they like manner. Nice, not that hate everybody be nice, not her. You know it be nice to believe we can. We can get together. I mean I I still believe, and I still believe that we do share

common humanity. I'd still believe you know. If you don't talk about politics with someone who you know you disagree with, and you talk about family or you talk bout. Football or you talk about any number of things. It's a whole different experience now and then everybody gets tribal. When you talk about politics, but at the the we share experiences as humans, and we just but you know We should also acknowledge that Barack Obama, One may well you look back at that day. It was fucking crazy. Yet what we were doing great, I may we were. We were a bunch of insurgents and you know one of the most we're going to see some of the folks who were there that day who we worked within that camp? I can't wait later today, but one of the things that were so gratifying. To me I was so like oceans, eleven, you know just went around said, are you enter our you out

but he knew there was a risk in this, because I think the Clinton's would have been that forgiving. If the thing had gone the wrong way and have jobs and that I ministries let me just say, you'd, be you had been reading hallmark cards, my friend so so I and yet people came and they came because as skilled as they were at the two. Of what, with the tools of politics they, and in the art of politics. Then they also believed that it meant something And you know: We had a great group assets say later, but I've been watching. Did you watch at three parts? You guys are pretty too young to think about the Beatles, but a dead. Did you has fantastic? Yes, so, This was this documentary that was filmed and there really that their last their land

serve album, and you know that Lord of splintering. Often they are going off in their own ways, but when they Donna made music. It was it special, it was beautiful and they all kind of new like that were better take either in some ways and and and they were- and you know so. We had this tremendous ban. everybody play their role and everybody knew like. I had such confidence in the people around me and I knew that, if I did what I was supposed to do, and they did what they were supposed to do and of course we had the great instrument in Barack Obama that we would. Would we could be the greatest band ever and we work- and I saw em- you know I'm- I went to bed everybody tonight for for taking a chance, because we all have been working for Homer David S right at all

talking politics with whom we have done and while, in fact, yeah what's united, even though you guys are an industry so well, just a couple of I'm gonna wrong when I got an heads plodding along with, a tiny, little podcast just admiring general motors over here. But honestly I am so thrilled fur, your success both of you guys and all you guys in a region. And I listen to you and your euro, you're, even smarter, then, when I ignored you asked do you have been a wonderful friend and mentor anxious to be here with the banks, acts thanks again to David extra for joining us and have a great we can everyone will see next week by everyone

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