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I welcome the pod, save America, I'm John Deborah, I'm John love it Tommy return later in the part, will talk to Jessica, yellin scene and former chief Whitehouse corresponded, has written a new novel about the news media in DC before that about the debate over impeachment was before new plan to eliminate student debt and provide free college and set mountains announced what that he's joining the There are few dozen democrats already running for president and he not the last word: love it. I was literally that we're egg episode, a lover or leave it chairman, Adam Schiff german shit, shit,

oh, my god, what I'm doing a shitty culture, don't you conversely, shift, came by very graciously to the improv on a Thursday night, the day them all report, talk to us about it. A great conversation about about the actual report: and the congressional response, and we discussed impeachment and whether it's worth pursuing very much worthless, Also, Jason Leopold of Bus, Hutus and on this came by to talk about it. We also metered you hurry and Paul downs. It was a fantastic episode. Also. I think you have some some you might want to all my guy. Are you head back on the road soon asked in Dallas Houston? Our next swing coming up the first week of may yes, I'm very fine, weak or sweeter like in Texas,. But it can be great regret. Kids, I'm sure you can check out their shows. There are some tickets left for all three shows: I've been Jochen about Houston, not selling, but guess what sort of picked up to get taken hurried outcome, slash events also Congratulations to our friends are positive. The people who, just one too

the order of a levy bookends for their fantastic podcast congrats to derail Brittany saying and Clint yeah, there's by a lotta new listeners to the show haven't check their positive people, go now smash scrubbin, you and I regret it spent ass dick. I get to the news. We ve never had a few days to fully digest the rejected version of Robert Mother report. Four hundred plus page document the details, the russian government's to sabotage our presidential election on behalf of Donald Trump sabotage. The Trump his campaign, knew of sought out, welcomed and lied about. Europe, then details ten different instances where the president obstructed justice in an attempt to impede the investigation into that russian sabotage. In addition, It was wrong doing as a result, there is now debate about whether impeachment proceedings should begin guys before, yet treatment. I want to get your biggest take away from the Mulder report, since this is your first pod to talk about it down take the butter on Thursday Tommy what you're, some of your biggest turquoise. You know

we always need to step back as far as possible, and in just remember that the report confirmed that the russian interference efforts were sweeping and systematic com has. This was debated early on, rather Clinton people were treated like they are crazy for suggesting so an end credibly, frustrating thing about the Mulder report is that there is probably no recourse for that right there. There doesn't But you will be a a way to punish the Trump campaign for its part in this. So that would require the trunk administration, to undertake some sanctions or some sort of covert action or something additional. So what we ve already done to punish the Russians for this election appearance, so they will likely do it again that sucks and it's a huge Hugh when for putin- and you already have people jeered Kirshner, who today tried to downplay it by suggesting you with just a few facebook, adds nothing. This

as a massive effort. The Russians were able to create real life protests and get people out on both sides of the protests in the United States on your election to be. Solved that then, and by the way- and that's the social media part of the of the sabotage likes. I just never mind the hack. It was a theft of documents, and if you don't think that matters go, please sure inbox. Yes, I feel I also speaks to the. The use of the word to leak was a problem during this period of time. Even this Sony emails, murmured Sony was hanged. They were called leaks. The emails are leaking river leak. There were stolen released. There are stolen documents, Arizona got no. No, it's just you know and also like the The laying out of all the efforts to obstruct the investigation is so striking in its so Regis and it's so transparently, illegal and on ethical, and deeply frustrated by the argument that somehow trump saved by his own stash hate, ordination or or that you know

That's because we could improve the underlying criminal conspiracy crime that he can get away with obstructing something. That's just not true right. We know that there was a campaign finance violation in terms of the payments Trump made, the Stormy Daniels to silence her and keep her from telling your story before the election. It stands to reason that any obstruction effort might have been to prevent that from coming out rights, alike, just. He did a lot about stuff, it's very frustrating, but you know I guess the thing I keep telling myself is: it's very hard digestive, four hundred forty, a page report quickly we're gonna we're gonna going through it over and over again in the weeks and months to follow so take a deep breath. I guess I'm talkin to myself right now. It is also interesting examples where really dog investigate reporting, clearly added to the all and helped him along the way, but it also lessened the explosive impact of all these revelations coming out at one time, because reporter subduing great work

I was stunned by the number of very good journalists and outlets who went with the Trump staff saved him from himself because they didn't carry out his orders to obstruct justice, like that, the legal definition of obstruction of justice includes attempts to obstruct justice, Donald Trump tended attempted to obstruct justice. The reason his staff wasn't charged with obstruction of justice is because they ignored his orders. Just because they ignore disorders doesn't mean that he didn't obstruct justice. That there's no such thing is that right? Is it some? It's actually backwards? The fact that personal dump did It is also it's not either, or he very clearly successfully obstructed. Just on many occasions and succeeded in intimidating witnesses exceed it succeeded in tampering with investigation on many, occasions. The fact that on several other occasions he was thwarted by staff who, out of either self preservation or cowardice, refuse to carry out. Those orders is an argument for Peter is argument for calling

structure, not an argument against it, lava warrior bigness. You know. Yet we target tundra, this we're chef actually talked about it at the top of lower or leave it having cut. It could just be kind of being sad for awhile and frequently, and you know what I've been thinking about more and more. As you know, we ve talked about this since the beginning of a trumpet ministration this vice grip between those of us seeking to preserve institutions and upholding their character against. Is it an who has no interest in the many, and I do feel right now that we are paying for that in a lot of ways, because when you take from the Mulder report, is someone so can sky so committed to faithfully executing the duty of special care, also faithful to the idea of an impartial education of the law, a careful prosecutor that he air so many times on the side of caution and how he describes the heirs, so many

it with caution and whether or not to call some a conspiracy weather calls to make illusion weather to call someone something a crime at night, and I believe that that is in part. What is Did Robert Mahler Investigation and and and maybe his career, which is a faith in our system of faith in the political process of faith that once out at the information itself, will do the job here. Is it to do and I come away from the way we responded this weekend? The way the media has responded, the way trumpets responded way Republican responded, saying you know what in this case, that really may not be so that that that ultimately, the real the investigation didn't weak for so long. Ultimately, the reason, in a position where we're seeing this report is because Robert I thought the information would be enough to galvanise the public and my fear, I think, all this debate about impeachment. As part of that is my fear, is it just won't happen, and I think it's taking a moment to say where we are as a culture and where we are as a culture of the place in which we all collectively do not believe Republicans would,

Where do the right thing and it informs every aspect of what we decide to do. The fact that we know that there are a group of Republicans than are what the truth holes Are they are insured? They are immunized against a morally responsible path. I won't take a look at more bout, Robert mothers intentions with this report Yoni Apple bomb rights in the Atlantic. That quote, the Mulder Report, in short, is an impeachment referral. I says that quote Mahler, Spelled out a concern with alleging a crime against a sitting president and that concern was the risk that it would pre. Empt quote from the report constitutional processes for addressing presidential Miss Is that what it read like to you guys impeachment refer you not, No, I mean I don't know the difference. I don't know it's. What is it?

for all this to be the first one. I've read, you know at least in some time, so we'll just just for some background you, so we can talk about it under the old independent council statute. When can start was independent cancel the independent council was allowed at the end of investigation to make a formal and p referral. Under the new regulations. The special council, Rubber Mahler, was not allowed to make an explicit impeachment refer and yet by saying that you know charging the president with the crime which Molly did not think you could do because a sitting I can't be indicted under Deirdre Guidelines and in all so saying. Well, I think it would pre empt. The constitutional process is for dealing with presidential must conduct, which is in peace, it. It seem like he was signalling that this is perhaps an area where there is also a fairness question right. It is, if you accuse someone of it. I'm and then they are not able to go through the process of a speedy trial to adjudicate it. I think he he really that weight on him as well yeah, it's also. He also makes-

there's another caviar inside of the report right inside of this argument that here that here here here this road map towards impeachment there's also a point where he makes it makes it clear. Despite these constitutional question, despite these restrictions even take those aside, there would still be reasons to debate whether or not to pursue charges. He makes that point explicit well so, but but ultimately, yes, I mean, I think this video who says he also says exquisitely. If there were facts that could examine him we would there are not right. I don't know about this, again, what I mean they're right. He was so careful in his language that he left out for everybody. But yes- and you took the the arguing, as you said, that I was wondering, like I dont- think he was not allowed to say yes, Donald Donald Trump should be impatient. Congress Jim, and he also believed he was not allowed to say because of Deirdre guidelines that I want to indicted sitting president. So I don't even know if it was just Robert mothers caution or He imagined the political implications would be or how he

He was going to galvanise the country, I thought he was or like what I'm gonna do this by the book and by the letter of the law and the regulation, the dear J, but knowing that I'm gonna go pretty fuckin far and letting you know that I think this misconduct was pretty was was possibly unimpeachable, write anything the argument, for that is just the careful laying out of the legal defence of why obstruction of justice is a crime without the constitutional patients that barring arguments are really is in arguing against barn. There really is a it's very late but it is the end of the end of the the obstruction section. Has this beautiful language about why if a present were to commit obstruction adjust? It is important that Congress have the power to investigate it and to impeach a president over at the conclusion that Congress may apply the instruction lots of the president's corrupt exercise of the powers of the office according to the constitutional system of checks and balances and the principle that no person above the law, and I think, there's no and white? Why about language a year As you know, if you dont have a message to send about impeachment and in a very carefully

right because he's laying out he. He introduces this idea that if the present is using his powers in a corrupt way, it's a high threshold for to be correct. But if it is, it's actually important for Congress to make sure that the president is faithfully executing loss what is the Trump republican strategy been since the bar letter and has the Mulder report change that strategy? At all I mean you know, this is the premium. Victory lap to end all victory lapse and the rest of the thing came out and they're just still doing loops around that track. It I've been there just going to make this a political fight in they're, gonna, say no collusion. No obstruction. We win time to move on the key point that our own needs the watchword time to move on time, to move on time, to move on, that's where they want to get the american people. Ironically, the army and move on name for censure and move on Yahoo. They were trying to get the Oakland not of an obstruction Katy. I would try this before. He gets its move on and let's and nothing to see here no obstruction, no collusion

it also is we're seeing from Trump, and you know all of his tweets the weekend and even from the White House. Now it's time to investigate the investigators. The Democrats committed a crime by starting this investigation, which makes no sense, Democrats and start anything if they never do, and it wasn't a crime of the rapporteur that the Mulder report is at the very beginning. It totally obliterates obliterates the bullshit talking point in the right. That somehow the a warrant on Carter page is what started this. The size of war. Was it right when it was like? No actually, George Papadopoulos threat, putting sitting with you know yet with much Australians itself? We didn't learn that much that we didn't already know about Donald Trump. We learned a whole, about the attorney general. We embark in a very short period of time. He is a total hack. He was willing to lie in Spain in Miss

resent this report and he was willing to entertain the notion that the Obama administration was spying on the Trump campaign in the Navy. That was the genesis of you think so these punitive steps, the trump has been out there talking about for a very long time. He now has some serious top cover interim. Some allies within Department of Justice, a supposedly independent entity, whom I execute yeah that that's, me there was a category around bar where he was sorted into serious, maybe shifty republican, where he is now actually behave more like completely unserious trump goon. That is, I think, something up even surprised, Robert Mahler, because I do, I do believe So what we now know that Robert Mahler seems to have been caught off guard by the way in which a bar took that report wrote that four page memo basically tried to get Europe out of the possibility of being chow in the future, etc, etc, etc. I mean to me I did we see the kind of the range of Republicans responses. They run from a Tommy's describing the and what you're describing the kind of totally generating, let's investigate the investigators, all the way to the Romney's which

sided to land on something along the lines of it was reckoned cities. Second by the administrations. Dishonesty! That's right over here that it is sickening unpatriotic terrible reprehensible, not a crime right, that's where their landing and, thank God what a relief to discover that the sickening unpatriotic reprehensible present. It did not commit a crime we need to, and we need- and you know it shameful its deserves to be held accountable, but it's not a crime and that to me as where the republican ranges yet and there this to other categories of reactions that I want to mention because they matter going forward. One is really Giuliani, CNN telling Jake Tapir theirs nothing wrong with taking information from the Russians who says it's even illegal, whilst clearly a campaign finance violations take something of value from a

individual individual entity right he's wrong on the most basic facts. That's true, ok and let's say even because clearly in the case of the trunk tower meeting, Mahler thought that done junior was too stupid. To know that taking something a value from a foreign entity was illegal and in the case of the ban on foreign contributions to inaction ignorant The law is ok, apparently in that instance, because camping violence was quite complicated. I guess it's just which is much, is outrageous but set aside, which is crazy to say, set aside the legal issues. Here I mean that's basically Johnny saying in the future, twenty twenty comes around and the Russians or the Chinese or any foreign power off us information about our opponent. We think it's now ok to do that. Well, it does not address such a fundamental thing. We are a country founded certain rules and restrictions to try to prevent the foreign influence on our democracy right. It's like its assent,

to whom we are that foreign, something they founders word right. We know that that foreign power should not be able to come in here and take over our elections. Meddle in our elections choose our leader for us right. That is partially where the present needs to be born in the it states where this is all goes into our serve our fundamental. And then, if we are to give a shit about. I do think, though there is this problem, which is reason saying that the thing before it remember, we ve been watching him slowly evolve in before the Mulder report came out. If I was like no collusion may be called from some other people, but not from Trump? What's the problem of collusion? I was a joke for a long time, but it's interesting when It seems to matter when it doesn't Bertie says that it doesn't seem to get everybody kind of aunt. But what happens when Donald Trump stands next, to flatter me, Putin in Helsinki, and behaves like a supplicant that does sort of people to attention. So I think one of the challenges here is this question about foreign influence, seem to have a real kind of subjective and emotion. Quality and people clearly reacts in US away, depending on literally how it feels to see it play up there

what about as an argument that you will hear a lot that is valid, which is to say, the? U S has intervened or interfered in foreign elections, time and time again throughout our history, and that is true, but I dont think it then excuses what the russian state or excuses the Giuliani argument may be cheap. Step back and think. Maybe we shouldn't do that. Shit doesn't like an early and it might take- or maybe even the fact that we have these stupid covert actions are get cook up by of unaccountable CIA didn't that voted on in that. Well, it's a static, we're supposed to be for values in transparency and democracy and rule of law. Let's keep pushing cells in that direction. Out, excuse it. It does the ethic they anybody's faithfully. Make me are you like? I don't care of China interceding election member? What we did to the sharp will know: yes, it out on Twitter all the time from some very well known, the lovers them lead levels and it is not the point. The the other reaction that I think bears upon what Democrats should do now is over the last couple days we seem to different stories.

Trump and hidden in his businesses are suing has Democrats to hide their financial record to avoid all the subpoenas for trumps financial records, and then today was the deadline that Trump Post to hand over his taxes. Or the IRS whispers to hand over trumps taxes to Congress, and they have just blown to the devil said: they're, not gonna, do it, so they do by saying nothing's here This was a sham. This was a witch hunt there now saying Whatever other investigations, you got we're going to ignore subpoenas, we're gonna ignore regulation. We know this because this is all which right so that these are all the reactions, and this all leads us to the democratic reaction on Thursday when this whole thing broke tells majority leader standing. Why are initially said that impeachment quote wasn't worthwhile be an election coming up with the american people can make a judgment. He since walk that back and said quote? Congress must have a full report in all underlying evidence in order to determine what actions may be necessary. Jerry Natalie, the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee said over the weekend that he wouldn't rule impeachment out, but that he needs to hear

both Mahler and William BAR and read the full report. First on Monday, Speaker Nancy, Lucy through Coldwater unmoved start impeachment proceedings immediately. Releasing a letter Her colleagues, that says quote, while our views range from proceeding to investigate the findings of the Mulder Report or proceeding directly to impeachment. We all firmly agree that should proceed down a path of finding the truth. So I think this one is not an easy call. So, let's go let's go through all the different arguments. One by one would the argument for taking impeachment off the table and just moving on. I mean so here. Here's how I'm trying to think about it, which is I believe, all the moral arguments. Swayed that it is an obligation that this is what Congress is set up to do. This is why we have impeachment by care about them? All I want to hear is the most crass political argument about how this may benefit us or not. And so what I want to know is two things: were

Can we learned the impeachment that we can't learn through other investigative means, your committees, and how will it impact public opinion? And I think, You know what we will learn. Basely boils down do like what information and people do we had access access to during an impeachment proceeding that we wouldn't get during a subpoena process. If are ignoring subpoenas now they might again later, will probably take a court to compel them in their direction. So you know I mind that impeachment in in the process but in the house is why we ultimately got the Nixon tapes. That proved to be the smoking gun to take him down. But you know there's a track record of success there, but the second half is going to be a big pr fight and so will impeachment hearings, fundamentally, change hardened public opinion or coverage of trapped in a way that is strategically important or that just Peanut Don Mcgann might not

and this is where I really struggle, because I think the impeachment timeline will be what the three four five months from start to finish. Will that focused attention be enough to change public? Union so that, even when we get to the end of it in the house does what it's likely to do, which is to not vote to impeach him that he doesn't. Walk away with an even bigger benefit, which is to say Mahler and the Senate found me innocent. Let's move on and on the answer to your question Tommy is like what is it? You know. What are the politics of impeachment? You know. Does public opinion move don't know we don't like. We can answer it, and so I look get some more lie, and you know you can talk about the the moral dimension of this. Should you know where that you be constitutional obligation of this, and I understand that that doesn't have a lot of feel real world in practical and political. I also there's a precedent that it sets right like bite by not taking action

Robert Mahler, who, as lava just said is, has been very, conservative not ideologically conservative, a conservative by nature, very careful how you lay this out, basically lays out ten instances where the present United States obstructs justice. And goes all the way up to the line of basically saying this is an impeachment referral for Congress, and so, if we take the special council who found all this evidence at the president committed a crime, and it wasn't by the way, just that this is this- is, I think, qualitatively different than what Bill Clinton was Impeach for Bill Clinton, it was obstruction of justice. It was perjury for an underlying. It was that it was an affair. Red. He lied about an affair. This is the president obstructing an investigation into foreign sabotage of our elections, and I think that is a very, very big deal for couple reasons. One future presidents, then, if you don't impeach future presidents can set as long as my party has enough votes in Congress to make sure that I'm not convicted. I can commit

ever crime. I want because Donald Trump Cutaway, that's number one number two, we have an election, but what are you doing? Peach and he gets away with in future presence, will drop, same lesson of partisanship. It's it's right. It's possible, but ITALY, but we don't know we exactly, but we're at this right now, where we don't know what the consequences of an ice resuming the outcome ray. I'm presuming that that this super majority of the Senate will not vote, and what I'm saying is whatever the outcome may be. If we go through an impeachment proceeding that fund. That does actually change the public perception, Donald Trump, because we don't know that it won't yet, and it does lead to you, no more information if more informations uncovered if more crimes were uncovered throughout the course of the impeachment proceeding, then you know maybe other presidents will think twice. While they did do that Donald Trump and he didn't get any didn't get reelected again, we don't know the other big thing is we haven't. Coming up and twenty twenty there's a virus, the russian government. Why wouldn't I try to interfere again? Why

wouldn't and highlighting the fact that there is a foreign power that interfere in our election and that we took action to make or they can get away with it by going through the impeachment proceedings, because we knew that this, the president committed a crime that may have an effective, it may not. I dont think of any deterrent effect on them personally is widening the com station- is- I think, a bit frustrating in its actually wide the further we get from what sending. Where said the more furious. I am for him having set it because he introduced this binary of, should we impeach, or should we not impeach in That'S- become that sort of the core of the debate among Durham Demo, But to me you know everything were discussing, it is a hypothetical to hypothetical, but what impeachment will do and their lives? dancing around at right, like the facts are obvious right, he's morally intellectually unfit to be. President he's obviously commit an obstruction of justice unless you're paid by a network to pretend otherwise its clear. You know impeachment also exist for president just like this, so, why? Wouldn't we write and to me very much boils down to what you're saying how malleable is publicopinion right? That's really what we're talking about

we can weaken backing up Schiff another leave. It talk. Well, there's other avenues. We could explore. There's the counter intelligence dimensions are financial dimensions, as other things that there were outside of the scope of Robert roles investigation. And again this always comes back to the same problem which, as we just right now, are not sure how to move public opinion. There is this question at root. The fear is that, even though Trump deserves to be impeach, even though in Peter Power exists for this purpose, we dont believe Democrats have the moral authority or political acumen or reach inside of the media, to make that case that Fox NEWS Immunize, Republicans too, each man and where, in this place, where that very well may be true, it simply may be true that we are right now facing a thirty, your problem of an onslaught of conservative propaganda that makes Donald Trump immune to the effects of impeachment. It is horrifying, it is terrible, but Personally, I think I've we. I wish we could be more honest about that, because the fact that Donald Trump deserves to be in peace to me is unassailable. It is hard to argue, with

and when you say he shouldn't be impeach, which are really saying is this system is so fundamentally broken that we can't remove and unfit criminal present, but I also think if we just want to put everything else aside and talk pure politics and pulling above us, I think there has been a problem where certain public polling has been baked into the narrative around impeachment, where, if you go out to voters and ask them, what do you care about? Miss election impeachment never shows up right, which is absolutely true. But when you ask voters, do you believe the Donald Trump should be impeach or not? It is much much closer. It is pretty split and if you look at dependence. The numbers are pretty close right. There were a few polls that had it a plurality opposed a few pulls out a plurality cigar right so again, you're too, that the Leap watch Fox news again or lost to public opinion right. They can agree on just like the bit there. Fox news is Vincent than the basic facts aren't correct or but we're thinking about, Democrats and independence right when we were talking about moving public opinion and it

very unknown. Right, like it is very possible that most people in this country do not want all their time, twenty candidates and all of their politicians to be talking about a peach when all the time for sure. But if Democrats make a case by case that Rob Mulder, Independent Special Council, Robert Mahler, made that the president has obstructed justice and when everyone turns their televisions on cable news, covering that for a couple months and all the crimes that dumb from committed shone on tv and talked about everything and potential the crimes are out there. What is that, due to public opinion? We don't know, and both us and also more point brain boiler this up. There is in his peace. There is what happens if Democrats move on and what Republicans do and what Republicans do, what we ve seen already as they don't just move on. They start the counter investigation. They start saying the Democrats committed a crime by starting this investigation and now because the democratic clearly moved out anyway, because they know it's a loser for them? So now we're,

start going after the Democrats, now we're gonna start investing. So here's the here's, the problem, I think without argument. I think you're, saying is true and you're saying there might be a political benefit. Twenty twenty election to having this period of time or refocused on this issue and it is true that those Fox news people aren't edible, but if what we were A do is have a successful impeachment in which I will is in a queen, isn't acquitted and declares any another. Another layer of exoneration right. He declared himself exonerated by the Mulder report. We take them all report we impeach and based on it. He that is referred that assent to the Senate, the scent Quit, him he's exonerated yet again to me from treatment to be successful. It requires piercing that Fox news bubble and I think right now, we just don't feel as though we have the capacity to do that. But let me make it so I don't think this is binary. I'm moving on honours the option of anyone suggesting that. I also think that they're going to start a counter investigation, no matter what we do, I think they're especially likely to start a counter investigation in the Senate if we started impeachment in the in the house. So just a game

four minute like for Bill Clinton? The timeline was the house. The house authorized impeachment. October of ninety eight has proposed articles December. Ninety. Ninety The trial began January, ninety nine Senate quoted em in February twelve, so that's like five months. We they bombed Iraq in the middle so maybe shrinks. So we start this thing into three months. It's sort of done by the end of the year. Super focused attention. I'm trying to understand how that's more politically beneficial. Then one blockbuster hearing per month with the dawn began or another really key individual. That gets us all the way through the election. Now so I can get it either could make an argument that the media coverage of individual investigations and hearings would not be as significant as the media coverage

or a full blown and which I think is reasonable, and another argument for impeachment is kind of crass. But it's just running out the clock like this would be all consuming for them for six months they wouldn't be able to do much more damage in terms of policy, hoed legislation and getting suffer through the house, are not the house but the Senate. So that's another interesting element in the other and the other point talking about Clinton's impeachment. Is everyone looks back at that and says: ok, the House Republicans Impeach Bill Clinton and then the night Andy Midterms Billions Party Democrats actually gained slightly a few seats in the house, but also by the end of cook, Bill Clinton presidency. While his job approval was it sixty percent, because the economy was one of the best economies of all time, his personal approval was thirty percent with sixty six percent opposed a bill Clinton personally, and he was so tat

sick as a political figure that Al Gore did not want him to campaign with him the entire time and both Al Gore and George W Bush were campaigning on storing integrity and honesty to the White House, so they did not do much for Bill Clinton, personal ratings being by that- and I guess I just come back to this problem right but were then talking about- is the pure political calculus about the benefits of impeachment and in the moral argument, kind of fades away to me right in what we know we can make that I was up none of it aside because, as Tommy said like we can make the moral, let's just type, but now I agree, I agree but under say looked so so. If I guess what I, I guess, what I what I'm saying is if, in order for the moral argument for impeachment to make sense right that we must leave that to Tommy's point if impeachment is doomed to fail in the Senate right, then the moral argued kind of iffy cuz, it's like wait. How did we serve the constitutional question if a present committed crimes he's impeach than exonerated So if it for there to be a moral case, impeachment mean involves, but having faith in our ability to pierce the finally pierce through that that that right wing bubble.

And have it carry over and change. The way Republicans are behaving like. I also think if you start impeachment preceding the expectations, the junk Donald Trump will be convicted. In the Senate are zero right, I don't put to it, does any thus believe that he'll be convicted in the Senate. No does anyone believe he'll be convict in the Senate now so, and indeed makes us. When all the time that, when Donald Trump is exonerated by the Senate, because Republicans don't vote for it conviction, he's gonna run around saying total exoneration, but we know It's going to happen now, right We want an Elizabeth and to me made the best argument. Last night, the CNN town Hall, where she's like I, she fully Eliza he's not going to be convicted by the Senate, but she's like I want every single member of the United States Congress to take them up. Do you believe, what he did was ok are not ok and if you think it was ok, you take that vote and you live with it for the rest of your life, because it might my things as if we make this a debate where it's the moral case here is that we should impeach him, but the political case.

But it's dangerous, and so we should. But we don't know that the political case basin areas that hush what we think is the moral cases. Yes, he should be impeached and the political consequences of whether we appeal when we reach him. We don't know their unknown. So that's it case then maybe go with. What's morally correct its look, it's a regional argument. I don't know the answer and that's why debating both sides of it? I'm just now. I keep thinking back to a really really bad loss. We had on my football team, school my friend losing his mind, screaming I'm sick and fucking, tired of moral victories, and that's how I feel right now. If I want to win- and I want to be as crass input how about this I'm trying to game it out, and I don't know the answer, but I the hesitancy we already have and the numbers we already have about impeachment going into it, makes me concerned and I'd love to see these committees is digging digging dig in digging, dig and find more information, evidence and enrolling. Why keeping about your argument? Tommy you just made about running at the clock to we know from the past how

and ears he's been in office now then when the news is focused on Donald Trump, doing something wrong, Donald Trump acting badly. Don't they his approval ratings are lower and Democrats do better, get back to thirty. Nine were notable he's, but yeah he's waiting is already dropped. Since the Mulder report came up in the more, the focus is if, if Congress is focused on repeating Donald Trump and the news about that, and the twenty twenty candidates are out there on the trail talking about health care talkin about jobs talking to All these issues that to me is a news, narrative and a new environment that I dont fine for equally problematic or detrimental to the prospects for Democrats and twenty twenty. That's just my share. That's my crass political yeah! This is why come back to my frustration with how the debate as unfolded, because I do feel as though Democratic Congress weren't on the same page at all and turn it into a binary of is impeachment worthwhile was not of was not a smart decision because I do but

that there is a version of how we're talking about this right now, which is something along the lines of Robert Mauler, has exposed gross criminality on the part of Donald Trump. It demand to be investigated and it could lead to impeachment, and every Democrat in Congress is committed to an investigation and if it leads to impeachment so be, it will do or we'll go where the facts take us and end we believe is morally right, and it's we're in this debate, whether now, if they manage to turn, investigating the president for his crimes. In a way that could lead to impeachment into some half measure the boy you I mean, but I also think in some ways. This is all a moot point, because if we do, if, if not all the time, crasser on board with moving forward impeachment. Then this whole thing the story about the Democratic Party divided over impeachment and I think polluted that certainly doesn't redound to our benefit and look. I've got algorithms and that's where we started right between steady, coming against it and then Elsie leaning in that mean that divide was rarely

to your point about other investigations to me. This is why it's a very similar. Actually, it's it's much organ, but the filibuster too much argued, but adding just judges to the Supreme Court whether or not You believe that that, ultimately, where will land when, when when you say we're gonna, add more judges. It tell something to the judges that are currently there. When you say you might get rid of the filibuster, it is a lever of power to those who want to preserve the filibustering keeps up power when you say that impede is not worthwhile. You send a message to everyone that we don't have the stomach to go. All the way for an investigation into me. That's me the most dangerous thing, because we could be placed beaming exact, same position. We are right now without this idea of us taking impeachment off the table, and I think we have a much stronger and the other non political argument about investigations is what is what congressional committees going to learn that Robert Mauler and his all his FBI agents and everyone else did not ready to tell us in our foreign repaid report. But I don't think that's how anyone should be thinking about this. No one, no one read in internalize and went through the hole for forty, a page report. You pluck out pieces and you will be.

Buster tv hearings at a regular you're saying this is clearly a political next show that- and I believe this is a purely political pr fight and we need to win and then when the electorate that I might take, but that in that, but then that I think that's the reason that we need to do. That is because the word impeachment itself has some sort of political trigger in voters heads that they're gonna say somehow the impeachment isn't fair, but the investigations are I'm just trying to say that I think you could get the same come, which has massive news stories. Tv coverage witnesses on camera speaking under oath for the record through Standard Issue committee brings with someone like Don began, testifying over two days for several hours, and you dont necessarily need to label it impeachment where at the end, there is almost undoubtedly gonna, be an come that is seen as exonerating. The present I also, but I just one other thing- there are things that Congress could uncover and is actually to ships point. There are other things, Congress going to cover that didn't come out of them all report, because mothers report was scopes right. They did not look into

Cotter intelligence portion of investigation was almost entirely hidden in the report and we also know that this report is not called. Therefore does not look at Donald Trump. History of of of criminality across his businesses over the past. Thirty years, it's a russian interference in its efforts to obstruct it there Also huge avenues to explore around corruption around the emoluments clause around his financial dealings in Russia around other criminal acts that he has taken as a as a real estate investor money laundering. All the other shit that we ve been kind of, dancing around while waiting for the Mulder report. So that is, you know, do I believe There are still out. There are some thing that could learn that would change the fundamental dynamics of our politics were Donald Trump spot popularity hovers between thirty five and forty five percent in the Republicans are on board no matter what I don't know

I doubt it, but still I do think that there are places to go that Robert Mellow didn't go, and I guess, and might my only concern and we will see what happened since it seems like they're going to go down the investigations route is, let's see how much coverage these individual investigation spread over a bunch of different committees actually get and how much water, about them over. The next twelve months puts it Erika is brought to you by stamps. No one has time to go to the poster. Nobody. Nobody! nobody's got of time after the traffic you can find a fuckin park and spies hustle and bustle your login around all your mail in your packaging, although staring at our phones responded texts, that's way needs our common and was popular timesaving tools for small businesses, stamps dotcom, eliminates trips to the post office and saves money with discounts. You can't even get at the Post Office SAM's. I come back. All the amazing services of the? U S post office right to your computer weather.

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San Antonio Mare and former hot secretary, who Castro set in a television interview on Friday that starting impeachment proceedings would be perfectly reasonable. Elizabeth Warren also twitter support from each one on Friday. And on Monday night defended opposition position in the in town hall. Saying quote: there's no political! inconvenience exception in the constitution, which I thought was a fantastic court about this. Couple Harris also said in her seen in town hall that she believes Congress should take steps towards impeachment. Sanders, however, aligned himself with policy strategy and said quote it for the next year, all the Congo talking about his impeaching trump. What I worry about, as does that work to trumps advantage. What do you make of sort of the different dynamics of play here with the different candidates so fast I do think it did using their having the same. I think Bernie is sincerely having the same two bakers, Bernie doesn't feel like he needs to prove his bona foetus on being progressive. On being too, so he can be honest about his current reservations. I think I think it was with warrant is very is an argument and she clearly like mad. I take her worth is rather port came to this conclusion. I think there are others who will look.

Isn t it. Where do I fall in this group of Dort three thousand candidates? How do I distinguish myself, but it did using that burns reaction was, I think, a sincere one, I dont that is very dear to me, it was just very Pandit. It was. It was again Bernie guessing the political consequences of impeachment without really now, if I ask just you know, look so Congress is going to spend the next year passing a bunch of bills through the house that are dead are on arrival in the Senate. I mean, I guess, their it'll get zero coverage. I guess there's some messaging benefit kind of, but not really, because it does it covers, and your committee messaging bills. Are they pass through the house that we haven't heard about most pupils? Who does I like I am oak totally open with people saying they need to spend more time. Reading this, I am open to people being on either side the only response that kind of bothered me was mayor, PETE, saying to passing the buck, and Saint Congress should make that decision and that I'm not a part of Congress sums are not going away and that's on how this works. Buddy. You, you gotta, to take a position on this people really waiting here

yeah, you got to say yes or no and he and intervene in fairness. Murphy did say: I think he deserves impeachment, but I'll, let A let Congress do it, but I do think you gotta, you know one where the other one last question about that twenty kids? How, if at all, do you think they should incorporate the Mulder report, the findings of the Mulder report into their larger messaging, as they go out on the trail. The debtors idea that actually really good way to put the question, because you know in one way, I'm also sympathetic to Murphy because again, if any that this using who could be the next president and if they are the next president, they can't impeached I'll drop in other, not they're, not part of that decision at all. But I do, but it is this fundamental question. I think it's what money is ultimately getting at to buy. The question of his is a distraction like how should Mahler factor into what we talk about

and you know, I think we ve had a conversation a million times, and I think it always boils down to finding a way to make Donald Trump criminality, corruption, misbehavior, fit into a larger story about the failure of its presidency. I suspect that the twenty twenty democratic primaries not gonna, be one. Based on who is the hardest on meanest to nastiest Donald Trump right? It's gonna, be there son. How well you can set yourself out, show your vision, for the country and then make an art of argument about why you're the best person to beat him in an election. So I would focus on that. I think once you win the nomination that the Mulder report findings will feature heavily all of your messaging all of your negative- that it will be an enormous gift to the next candidate- just like that's another phase, so I completely agree with that and on the general too Do you think right now again, the debate is, do you talk about Mahler Impeachment Gordian? Not I think, if the damn Craig nominees out. There saying he should have been impeach obstruction of joy,

This gets down the weeds on mauler. It's not really helpful. I think like using live it. If you stepped back- and I don't know I'm a crescent saying this already Donald Trump betrayed his country in order to win an election and enrich himself. That's what he did. That's what the Mulder Report tells you to do it right. He he wanted cheek, he tried to cheat. He welcomed the help right. Also, you can win an election. He lied to us about the fact that he had been gonna went, get three hundred million dollars from a deal with Putin with the Trump Tower Moscow having completely lied about it. At a financial advantage to being nice to prudent? and and having favourable policy towards Russia, and I think, when democratic nominee is making their case against Donald Trump part of that cases. He is in this for him he's not in this, for you everything he has done since before he took office and to run this campaign has been for his benefit. He wanted power, he wanted wealth. That's why he chew.

Did you try to cheat to win this election and then tried to cover it up, and I think I think that's actually an important part of the message, though I think like it, I think its useful forget it. It's worth you not funny to security. Are it you could have we that's exactly what we would have said three days before them are working out and say three days after neck is it's all been rose. Was all reporting. That's another thing to you know you step back from this thing and again it comes down to this vice grip. Part of the reason this report did not land as hard as it should have his, because there is so much excellent journalism last year and a half that has exposed us to a lot of this criminality before if it that report had landed well unkind, everything because every I can do is memento and we forget what happened yesterday. So I know what I did, but it is worth but like this is the moment right. This is it right. This report lands. It is a catalogue of gross malfeasance and abuse of power. And miss behaviour and a lack of patriotism and cowardice, and

and evil on the part of a great many people to benefit Donald Trump into hurt the country? And yet because so much of it is something we kind of new before, because it really alive sedated as larger story. We were already telling it didn't land as hard as if we had just gotten this report all at once, and I dont know how you do you want that ETA have changed that, but it's worth noting that if we learned all this all at once, there would be no question about what we'd be talking it will be an emergency to remove this man from office as soon as humanly possible and the land. The last thing I says you know Democrats they make this case. Right now in the media, its Democrats and are being pushed to the left by their base for impeachment. Republicans are George Conway very, very conservative lawyer who was part of the Clinton impeachment process. Alexandra Cassio Conway married to a White House, adviser Kelly and Conway wrote a very good piece and wash interposed about how the president should be impeach just this morning, a Daphne on trumps, tins transition team who worked, Margo Rubio campaign said that he should be impeach like there,

conservatives out there not elected because you know elected their behold into their Fox news base, but there conservatives out there who believe the president should be impeached is not a democratic basis, Let's talk about twenty twenty on Monday, she's at Centre Elizabeth before introduce the most comprehensive, higher education policy of the campaign, Universal Free Public college and the cancellation of student loan debt. The plan would cancel up to fifty thousand dollars worth of debt, for peace, with household incomes under a hundred thousand dollars. It would eliminate tuition fees for two and four year public colleges. It would end federal funding for for profit schools and set up a fifty billion dollar fund for historically bout black colleges and universities. The plan would be fully paid for by warns ultra millionaire tax, which is a two percent annual tax on these, five thousand families whose network is valued at fifty million dollars on more what we think obviously war and has introduced a lot of ambitious plans, but on the spending invent

inside. This is probably her most ambitious and specific. Yet why do you think she chose the cost of higher education to tackle the question I mean I don't know if it's a great idea. I think that long term the idea that the Eu S would invest in education to invest in its people, and its workforce is obvious. It makes a lot of sense. I also think that student loans- that is particularly crippling- and she knows that, because in a week we can't even get a handle on it on an as a country- and you see you know millennials in particular young people not buying houses for decades in years because are paying eight or nine percent under student loans and crazy. So I think it's a small policy it will. It will play well politically or provide an economic

first, and then I do think again. She has been very smart about focusing on reducing reducing racial equality. Since african Americans are twenty percent more likely to need federal student loans of something we need effects level anything. Yet I think it's you know she is running through America's thorniest and biggest structural problems and saying what she would do to fix them. Is your president and could passing through through Congress that was democratic. It is holding a generation MAC, I think, is also a chance. It is unleashes a wave of support from young people who could not endorse for her, and

campaign for her and galvanise. I support for her. I think, for all those reasons units, that's that to me makes sense. I do these interesting to compare her plan to other candidates as well, because you know Bernie Sanders supporters and staggers, rightfully so we're saying what burners for free college and twenty sixteen and he was his free college plan actually does know. Quite as far as warns he warranty was focused on tuition, she's chosen tuition fees, housing, transportation, books, But the big difference is the student debt forgiveness, and that is very Elizabeth Foreign right because remember how she started or career focused on bankruptcy. Right and there are a lot of people who think that the next big economic crisis in this country are one of the next big economic questions. Country is going to be the fact that not just kids out of college now but twenty or thirty or forty year old people are walking around with all of this student loans at six figures, student loans, that that is not just holding back a lot of middle class families.

This economy, but is holding back the entire economy because we ve all this debt out there and she's cheese, and this is definitely in terms of forgiving student debt. The most bishop plant in the field. You know- and there are other candidates who have been, who are on record for debt for college, Comma, Harris, Corey, Booker Pearson, Gibran all signed on to plan the Senate. Castro said he supports Jeffrey College enclosure and people to judge recently rejected, for college plans and then not sure everyone else's yet so near that sort of how compared to the rest of the field yet interesting debt forgiveness. On, do not get another way that it's quite it fits with. What Elizabeth Warrant is done as a candidate and as a person is it's one of those issues where we can't be for that year should be for free college, but we can't go back and cancel this debt mean they took. They took the loans, you know, that's not fair. They took on these loans that you need to pay their fair share.

Bear wrongs wrong. It's a very, like you feel, there's like a third way argument against it. There's a conservative argument against there. This is a this is now getting a kind of some of the the deeper structural barriers to progressive policy in America, which is yeah, maybe in the future we can fix for the people that are coming, but there's nothing we can do for the people came before she also uniquely credible messenger on this in which she was nineteen. She scholarship the college and then she got married and dropped out and basically thought her. Her dream of getting a job was, was finished and shall she found a cheap commuter college close by so a lot of the policies she talks about our anchored in who she is, and I dont think that is probably

understood by the broader electorate nearly enough and if not, for lack of trying on her part it just a guess it hasn't broken through, because the we words used to describe her are Harvard professor or senator. It's not this middle class upbringing leads you to understand why she would be so sympathetic to kids dealing with crushing death from school loved to your point on the politics of free college versus the politics of forgiving debt. The you know yesterday, and was on Twitter was like piling on all the conservatives who said you know its peoples fault for taking into what about all the people who paid off their debt quorum, but it's not just conservative. So when you look at the polls on this, a recent Fox news pull from last week, foxes providing free college tuition for all fifty seven percent support. Forty percent oppose very free college, very popular, which is maybe one of the reasons we are seeing some Democrats for data for progress and service

which is a you know, lefty Ro Organisation they pulled this in October. Would you support reversing the recent Trump tax cuts and using the proceeds to cancel outstanding student debt. Only forty one percent in favour, thirty five percent of posts, are still plurality in favour. With Democrats, sixty six percent in favour Thirteen percent oppose great with Democrats, but overall my independence and Republicans and everyone else. It is more controversial proposal. Yet a controversial. Those all I've been. Also, it's very clear if you have student loans, that it will help you, if you don't, it won't right and you're. Looking at wait, a second you're just gonna give money all these people. I think about this political moment, a large away- and I think we Democrats have been in this debate in it it comes like. How do we wake up the american people right? That's what impeachment debates, but can we wake him up like we feel like? Where were you we were yelling, we blame the media, we blame fuck knows you claim a lot of things in their all deserving, but ultimately, how do we get people in this fight with us? This fight that we believe is so existential that so many people are prone

setting a knocking on doors every single day, even though there are millions of millions Americans who aren't so engaged to me, what I find so attractive about this is its it saying that, like four people that feel trapped in our current system, that feel as though they were under the there under the yoke of a process that has let them loaded with that. That they can't get out of that there is even even the best policies that came before would not have helped them that it says, like I'm, gonna do this and your life's gonna be better. It was gonna, be fucking, better you need a presence will make your life. You you someone with debt, you someone who did everything there are supposed to do. Your life gets better. When I become president, I think there's something so powerful and important about that for people that tried to do the right thing and worry that they feel trap for ever by mistake. They didn't know they were making that there's someone out there, who's gonna do something, for and I think that so I just its brave, because it is all too not necessarily a popular policy, but is clearly something she believes is the right thing to do,

Finally, on Monday Massachusetts congressmen, Seth Molten announced that he too will be running for the democratic nomination for president selection cycle is a marine veteran who was first elected to Congress and twenty fourteen. He turned up in the press affair. Last November is part of a group of has Democrats who pushed back on Nancy policy returning to her previous role, a speaker in his first day in the race molten also made up, If saying quote, I'm not a socialist I'm a Democrat. He said that he also said that as a person, receives as medical care through the government for him. It's the ba because he's a veteran single payer systems aren't perfect and that, as president, he wouldn't force people off their private healthcare plans. Guys what are set more strengths and challenges. So he's going to talk to him since two thousand and fourteen he's a marine who graduated from Harvard, I believe and then decided join the Marines and and observing for tourism Iraq he was awarded. The star something he refused to talk about until actually the Boston Globe figured it out and disclosed it. So I know

The video he released talks about service in being compelled the service and the honor and in region. Behind it and in a way that I think is in audibly admirable, I know, a little bit. I think he's going to struggle with the fact that most Democrats know of him. Vs anti policy efforts which I think probably work worse in hindsight- that they even did at the time, but you he wants to mount a national security argument, Donald Trump- I'm always interested to see that in some ways it's the thing, the president can actually do versus talk a big game, a bunch of budget policies that might never get through Congress but it's gonna be taught. There's gonna be a programme to getting this late with this many candidates and to make an hour meant that is a little more moderate in nature, love it. You know he he didn't interview with awe doorstep novelists Joseph around us.

You know you're the nineteen person to get an? Why you- and he said I'm getting and because of we need a Canada, who's gonna talk about patriotism, service and security. I don't find that a particular Lee compelling rationale. I am very open to that. Into a more compelling rationale, but saying your basically for public option and that you want to talk about national secure, it may be valuable and maybe there's a place for you to kind of bring that to the debate, but in terms of mounting a presidential campaign based around it when a lot of the the strengths you bring to the table are also brought to the table by several other candidates, I think is: to justify and its it. It shouldn't matter that your nineteenth versus first right, like if you're the person who should when you're the person who should win but at this point when we have eight in people her in the race when getting in his number nineteen. It has to be because you believe me there are eighteen are enough to it and you're the one and so far I have not

an argument in favour of that and because this election is so important and because we need to have these debates and these these conversations to find that exact right person to represent us. Fight against Donald Trump, if you're getting a now Unita button that rationale and need to make their case, he still can he absolutely so am I have Thirty, I worry less about the timing because I think we're trapped in the present and its April in there's so much time left. But I do think his main challenge is: it's gonna, be the challenge of anyone who doesn't have significant name recognition in a field of what's gonna be twenty candidates when Joe Biden, when the news today that he's gonna announced on Thursday twenty plus candidates in the field and finding media attention in the field of twenty candidates is going to be Burma and a lot of these candidates think well soon. As I get to the debate stage, then I'll make my mark and I'll get noticed, but two knights of a democratic debate with ten people on a stage each night is still gonna, be really hard.

Break free of branding. We don't know, what's gonna, be the big issue in December at source, why we can never count somebody out now. I do think losing all these months really hurts you in terms of organizing an infrastructure that slaughter raising staff, but let's say: there's a major national security incident that occurs in the next several months. God help us if it does not happen, but yeah we invade Venezuela there's a terrorist attack, Seth Moulton, standing up on that stage and sang I serve for tours in Iraq I know what it's like to command men and women in battle see people you love die. That could become the single most compelling issue on its age. Something people just could make to it's, not something that the other Canada's necessarily couldn T Gabert could make it as well, but the others might and inside and could say. I was in the situation where I'm right, yeah ray. I'm then couple who lived on arms service and so like that. But beyond that it becomes a little trick here moans also wishes to say he's argued for automatic voter registration, abolishing the filibuster abolishing the electoral college. So the process democratic reform stuff, that's where he is.

When we make any criticism of single payer, other candidates have not been, for you know: Bernie Medicare, for all version. The specific criticism that hey I'm on single pair, the ba it's everything its it's cracked up to be so I dont want to push people on that. One. You guys, like that it's a interesting way, to land at a democratic position. That is also pretty mainstream right, like deposition, does still aligns him with, say Medicare for America. I don't got plan right, so it puts amber, much in the mainstream? I think I think it's I think the question is: does even in this field of twenty or fifty, whatever Is there still room for one person to standardization, say I'm going to represent this argument for moderation? Will that have value right? This was, I think, the debate that might Bloomberg had. What should I represent that voice? Howard Schultz decided he was gonna, represent that boy by setting himself on fire on the morning Joe Set, but for the for the

credit nomination right there is seems to be a competition to be progressive either to represent the actual progressive ism. You ve shown your target or to prove you run a feed as to people who might be skeptical. He sang I'm gonna do something all the different- and maybe that is a bet- is a place for him. Then again, it's all that we talked about moderation to we just talked about how you never know very, very popular free colleges, and I thought about mountains. Not single payer, because morning consult just headed a new survey of six thousand adults. Just quite survey Medicare for all defined as everyone enrolled in one federal plan. The numbers are now forty seven in favour. Thirty four opposed Medicare buying or public option is now sixty two to seventeen as very popular and then they ass. Would you be more likely to support Medicare for all if it means Americans could keep their hospital and doktor sixty two percent said they'd be more in favour of it, and would you be more in favour if its voluntary enrollment sixty sense of more in favour. So it is a very interesting what yeah these medical forum

where's the more its ban. We knew this can happen, the more it's been out there too about and the more the Republicans to start beating up on it. You can start to see how the numbers go down. But agree or disagree with the policy. It's a pretty powerful rejoinder and its one drawn from experience in its one. That would probably be up by a whole lot of other, better to have been in the visa system and have not always been thrilled with the outcomes from the of the care they ve gotten or the timelines or the treatment. So I dont know to hear more about it from him, but it certainly the most least little sounding most novel argument. I've heard against eliminating private insurance over and again it is a testament to every activist who has pushed for medical for that a massive expansion of Medicare, where you can voluntarily and role or you can buy and depending on the plan, is seen as a moderate position, because, basically, all of these Democrat, the candidates are now on record for a massive expansion.

I also think it also unclear to me it is melting, criticising single pairs, credit criticising, eight national, a national health service right like it's a bit, sometimes a bit unclear. Ok, when we come back, we will talk to just the positive work is brought by the new Yorker. The new Yorker is. The best writing in America. Today has that Tommy I represent, think you ever did it think I overdue really well, and we look in the copy where they say they cover a full range of topics of the best. Writing doesn't extend to their advertising language. That is correct. Beyond publishing the best riders in the world, the new Yorker holds people in power accountable through rigorous reporting and compelling storytelling. Both on my in print. The New York covers a full range of topics, including politics, news, international affairs, I'm a change in the environment, popular culture in the arts fiction, food, humor cartoons emerald, I liked. It is go and look at old covers of the new Yorker.

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you know just because here we are telling you to download the catch up. Five dollars to five dollars goes to plan paranoid action, fun for in the car parts, apron, good Spencer, pretty good Spencer's and real download the up down there. Difference fun, just go to hurry up joining us today in studio the found of news, not noise and the author of the new book, savage New is our friend Jessica, yellowed hi, hello, Yellin Rescue Yellin, someone that I drove entirely crazy for years and years as a flak when you are a fantastic dog, corresponding CNN and then you are still kind enough to do stuff with us when Crooked media didn't even exist, yet the pre Crooked media phase yeah helping your working with us on how to be better at talking at the news figures, stuff out array. No friend of the pot from before their even was upon him. Now you guys are crushing at its awesome. You know, there's, let's talk about yeah

Firstly, this book, I certainly your book. You used to be the chief wages correspondent for CNN what made you channel the experiences you had in the news business into a fictional novel. You mean I maybe you'd right? Like a tell I now, I know it would have been more find in some ways. I guess I'm for insiders, I one. I always wanted to write a novel, and so when I left, I figured let's do it. Which might have been an epoch mistake for my life. It took three and a half years to write, but it's it is by now that it's out, I also thought that I could get another audience engaged in the news with the novel, in a way that I couldn't, if I wrote nonfiction, if I wrote, nonfiction would be for all of us in the insiders and everyone be looking Oh this dizzy story about that person. My goal was to really give people who are news, viewers and outside the system a window in, and I think you do that better with a story

What is the? What is the main point or a couple of the main points you want if you wanted to make about the news business with the novel, So, first it's about a young woman reporter whose always wanted to cover the White House and she gets the opportunity, just as the first lady disappears and so she's chasing the scandal of the missing first lady, and her management set her up in a competition to get the White House gig. She has to compete against a former reality. Tv start turned journalist and whoever that's the highest ratings wins, so it's? commentary a little bit about operating inside it, industry that so focused on ratings and also what. Like to be a woman in this world and that that's easy, so easy. It's really easy. It's way better than being a dude seems easy. You now there's like

weird things so I started writing it in twenty forty, I'm you guys knew I was you know well remember, first out here I just starting the book and then I was still writing them. Vitally them accept, but I said There is me to call it light me too, in the early version, and I gave it early readers and they were all like. Oh my god take that out. Nobody wants to hear that you got pretty to pre to go, that's good I think you should tm that ok and then and then after widening happened. All those people call me back in their like put it back and put it back at home, go of course. So you know some of that and it's like a lot about her. I never knew how important here was to wade. Has coverage like how perfect you're here has to look and all the things have to go through when you're on camera. Neither all drawn from I assume specific experiences at CNN

It's not only. My experiences is not only see their stories that happened to me to my friends are known in the industry in general, but people would could read this book and say: oh that I'd better. Based on someone and then people who this book and say I know exactly what this about is about that person I'm getting a lot of those messages. I mean this is the electronic coy, are joining O Koyo tone of voice telling us that this is what the what's the word was private, with a car with a romantic Claremont, Uclaf Mamma? Is there version of that Romano lights, I don't know, I don't speak French trying to go so I M going. People messaging me going, I know exactly the says, but people will say three different people. Like Stoa, as one mean woman boss, and they went away exactly who this is, but everybody's got a different mean women boss, or really believe. A good thing for me is like theirs story about how Natalie the main characters Natalie Savage. She gets the scoop and she run

the assignment ass to say I got this? Can we get it on air and there, like? I, don't see any one else reporting it so how to No, it's trail no. No, no! No one else has it because it's a scoop, I got it first, that's that's the deal with reporting except Time you come up against this where they're like no, we can't be first. How do we know so? I'm getting all the response, rather reporters going. Oh my god that happens to you too, that happens to me all the time. What what do you think we ve got this before what? What do you think is the core problem? one with the way that the media covers politics today, so I think the matter challenge is they work inside these corporations that are geared toward profit and shareholder value as a bottom line, and so they have to orient their editorial choices to maximize ray How do how do you mean people say this a lot. How does it actually filter down from you know,

see egos executives running these media companies down to reporters in terms of like we're trying to make money in profit, and so you should cover the news this way that actually work. The way it works is that the next step of that is there's this thesis on how new should be done, that everybody in the news, business or most, the companies I think of adopted, which is that it needs a bit like ESPN competence in jargon, outrage whose whose down here twinning is losing so Nobody believes new succeeds when its conflict based, and so they are all trying to find the stories that do that the most and then tell you? How do we tell story in the way that most conflict driven so you never have a focus on consensus. You never have common ground and its existence sat right of substance, factual information, I mean you do, but you don't have enough, and I asked

nothing there's enough explaining like what do we mean by that term rejected how hard is it to say rejected, which means parts edited out. You know how many more Will you gain just by saying that the double and and the outrage peace. Does this notion that, like emotion and screening, is going to trigger the most engagement so we're all sort out of the decent used. Above all, you ve been out as well for couple years, so think it's it's it's interesting now to observe it go on They saw a perpetual motion machine doing the same things over and over again, while the media landscape is drastically changing your item. Eight hundred millions of people are on onest, Graham many more facebook and twitter. Do you think there? watching that happen and evolving and inappropriate rate. Or do you worry about your former colleagues in offices sort of working themselves out of the business that such an I set up he taught me sure I think that their missing a huge audience there is a huge, audience that wants information they just want. It told

Information and a little com like I can tell you how many times I'm in rooms of especially women but millennials or people who are under thirty five going stop screaming, like I don't want, the yelling I just want to know what's happening, and I don't want to watch. Twelve hours will there is a difference of a good question. I always wondered: why do you think there are these panels of fifteen people on CNN and look there's it there's a few who were in a train their best offering analysis, but there does tend to be a bit of yelling, be as they ll have some republican strategists, whose tramper next to some democratic strategist or are never trumpery strategies and I've. I've been on these sets once or twice to actually sort of encourage you to speak up and argue with people

So here's the big picture before Trump. All that stuff worked. They think it worked right. It got your attention when things were com and there is like stability, yelling and all this was an emotional grab. Problem is now everybody's living at a much higher level anxiety to begin with, so I think it's just triggering people and putting them over and so They have this old model, they were committed to forever. They think. It's though thing that works, and so they keep pulling down on it and they're getting viewers, because people are interested in Trump, but think, there's another way to do it to get a bigger audience. There is also the point that panels or a lot cheaper than sending a crew out into the field. And you know you want to know how Healthcare actually function the ground right now? Well, that's an expensive stuff to go out and cover, if you have to people set yelling about it slot cheaper, How? Much of this is not strategy? How much of this is just in

a nurse and not knowing a better way. Look at you know, ok dad API, oh yeah each other at the news of frenetic pays to the way we cover the news covering Trump constantly sensation and turning it into sport right. That's what we do now. Here's what huh if it is just not knowing and alternative way to cover the news in a way that they believe will attract people who will watch it? I think that said. I think that day believe? This is the way to make people watch the news, and it's not like deeply well thought, through its just they ve always done and other doing it more and it's making money be people are so fastened with trumps away. Stop the one. I'll, say, is worse time obtain usually seeing more remarkable reporting than we ve seen for a long time. You, like my former colleague sure on the beat every day or crushing it right like there is real journalism happening, it's just a bummer that there operating inside systems that aren't prioritizing that more instead at a yell, fast woman,

I feel really bad for investigative journalist is to open up a New York Times with what am I saying open up? We only have to read the New York Times Washington Post and see some deep dive that clearly has taken months for investigative reporters to report out and the coverage it gets on CNN is the same amount as trumps lay stretch them like this piece is so well done. It is so smart, it is so depth and it is going to be a fucking lit up the radar. It's like a it's like a chef in Like Marie Antoinette Court, like spent six months figuring out the perfect ratios, to build this beautiful pie. Big meet pie comes out its three hundred pounds. Everybody looks at it and Marie Antoinette comes up in this. It's a little bit of crescents is not to my liking I couldn't have not anymore I'm hungry. Doing I just wonder about Ireland is like

the redundancies astounding that the news is never on in my home when I get home, but every once in a while will turn on the tv. I happened to be on the same channel of sun. Three months ago, and it's one of these primetime shows on the various networks cable shows in its. It feels the same. Stop it's the same anchors talking Saint pundits or the same, your Rudy Giuliani about the thing topics in that way it is, seems discordant to me that there is nothing new about the news most of the time when you watch it it does. That is that a deliberate decision as well? I think they do that, because it son, I mean they think that they have families right, like you, part of the conversation in his family and so you want to keep tuning in to see what the people have to say. But I nothing, it's just sort of its would love it set its inertia to some extent at just how it's done mean that the challenge I also think it's making some people disengaged while you have more people paying mention to the news, because their fastened by Trump

the data shows that there is a huge audience that tuning the news out and it's not because you don't want to hear the challenging information it's because they feel less informed after they watch it. They have more questions and answers and their anxiety is very high and and want information, it's just not doing the trick and the date Europe, that is people than actually disengage from like our politics. Society voting. So you could try to offer this audience. Something definite tell us bout news, not noise, which is what you ve been working on an instrument so I came out to allay when you guys were just starting up, and I started pitching this idea like what, if we do com news, Why have we do like? I call it news without a panic attack and everyone's like? Oh, no, that's not a thing told that there will be no news in the future

that news will only come from comedian. Who will be no news nowhere so as thing Maybe I'm insane, maybe I'm completely wrong and also, how would I do com news? Maybe they're right. No one wants it told in a placid way. So I just? Did it hides Instagram to challenge myself and see if I could do this and so I started reporting stories on Instagram and it took off any I, is I tell you, here's the news landscape. This part is noise, meaning there more hills, everyone's turning them into mountains. You can pay attention to them if you want, but it's like the US magazine. Politics rate it you know, need. What's a recent example of that what our recent molehill, so there the day, Donald Trump went to the briefing room and he didn't take questions and for twelve hours. Everybody was shouting that Donald Trump went to the briefing and didn't take questions. Therefore, it's not a briefing it's an address, or you can call them Who can raise? No one cares or Did that all the time Obama yeah

did that if new dynamic statement had yeah, that's true, it's also I don't care. If you call it a briefing, you called a statement who cares like let's get to news, the other one is the amount of time that was spent anticipating when Mahler would come out was. A friend of mine, called it a news crime linked the of news that wasn't covered because that's all they talked about is like use cried. We have found you guilty of news. Cried, you must say in the agreement with David Gurion for two hours, you're sentenced to two hours of Oregon Green meantime. What's the responsible, so it's taken off have you no really engaged audience? I I do it on my handle, just add Jessica, yellin and- I do story every day which the video and I do and explain her, and the idea is to just break down the jargon. That you know it means and tell you, One story that really matters in a way you're going to get and then be done, and I promise you I'm not going to panic you like. Even if it's a horrible thing, it's

holding away. That's not designed to maximize your anxiety and so the responses like I have. I mean Amy Shimmer announced her pregnancy on the Instagram feeds to that kind of help me out like blue things that yeah yeah I can I can. I can. I shudder, held out his area of science. Have an issue like this is noise by worth, knowing that guy issue a challenge, can you please that a meteor is heading towards earth, but do it in a way that that is the appropriate amount of panic? And we ve gotten word that about how to do that. Ok, guys, I want to bring you a story, that's What setting up happening now, there's a meteor. We science tells us that there is meteor heading toward our John love. It informs us this is happening at a time of impact could be Exxon such, but we have keep in mind. That

We ve had warnings of this nature in the past and it hasn't actually kind of hill. President terms really upset. The speed is reported in kilometers miles per hour, for Euro is tweeting. Move. Past outrage is level the idea to kind of inject sort of the full lamp. With the complexity. You not, I mean that whose happens in the grey zone and we cover. Black and white, and how I bring more gray to it and silky been interesting. Twenty twenty. Do you think the media is doing better job than in toys. Steam a worse job or just more the same shit. So I think that the reporting is amazing. Actual people getting information or do the practice of journalism is happening, The frame is really anxiety inducing like that The outrages of problem, like all the emotion, also the fact that the candidates Let's keep coming on air and there asked about Donald Trump. That's gonna be the thing people should watch for.

Candidates need to come on air and be asked about their policies where they stand. You know I within the primary- but every time, somebody's on in all their asked us to react to trumps tweets. It's the stories trump Again- and I am I think, there's chance that the media reelection, because he's just so good for the bottom line, gets very review. You lose sight of the fact that the one thing we know for certain is that of any these Democrats become. President Donald Trump will be an issue that judgment the opinion of news or trust. A news took a big hit in sixteen, I think, is bounced back considerably, but a few mind? Do you actually now asking whether we can like what is the point of an editorial page in a paper and it made I think that we have in our minds that there is this fire wall between opinion, in news on newspapers and on on cable tv right where you we know that once you at six p m, it's great opinion time on both sides and, let's freak out and scream. Do you think that that's a constructed ultimately

American and leads to this. You know belief that may be is inherently biased or fake news is real. It was Peter handy it is. I love conversation. I actually think that listen you go do opinion, but you D News too, and so there is up as for opinion, an news it's just about being transparent about it. You get till this philosophical conversation, which is is there any such thing is objective III anyway, if you think about Joseph Pulitzer, who is the standard bearer for like the highest achievement in journalism? Now was an opinion and he ran and opinion newspaper so opinion has been. If our knees landscape forever that the goal, though, is to be a front about it and I say this is my come from, but you know I'm giving you facts as they are like people read my Instead, there, like oh, it's neutral, unlike its not neutral. I have a point of view like tell you. This is a molehill, that's the point of view, but I'm giving you fact

raised information you can use to make your own decision to so my call would be for people to be a little bit more transparent, yeah, One thing I always wonder about is you see, lie reporters who, when their stories appear in the New York Times notion imposed on on CNN, they are objective non partisan when they're on Twitter are much more likely to. For their opinion, not like liberal verses, conservative, not an ideological plain, but their snark, right will make fun of staff, and I just wonder if that That seems to be the worst of both worlds because you're, like you like what I'm in the New York Times, I'm going to have prostrate news, but when I'm on twitter I'm going to just make fun of shit

That's actually really smart. One of the reasons I think social media is working for news or can, as the future is because you can be your real self while giving the news- and I think, the more so the pressure on all those reporters is to stop tweeting with those opinions. But on the one hand you have to tweet to have a brand and build your following. On the other hand, you have to not show yourself too much like I felt this pressure. And when I was on air, I have to make triple sensor what I might say for anybody to take it the wrong way on Twitter. What people actually leaned into it. More men were allowed to just be yourself a bit and also tell the information I don't I think it's very hard when you work for these traditional organisations, but I think that's why you eyes or doing like that's when new voices in the space you well because people feel the authenticity of your point of view, but also the information I do think it weird when you're, like one persona on the page and another person on Twitter, you I just like it to be consistent. Either so be yourself in the news. Outlets when you doing that or be

greatly restricted on Twitter is pick one. I I don't think it's like. How are they going to do it? You can't be real in these organisations if there's a format for how I mean that's part of the book It's like she's the girl when she's, because with color woman becomes the news reporter literally like has to go to the same salon that every woman goes to have her hair like a chemical strainer put on it, so that everybody looks the same. Every one in the news looks the same. If you go through conveyor belt, add it's like a factory that produces the news, look, and I do think, there's like us dripping out of your voice in your tone with that, which we can debate, whether that's gonna be the news of the future. Not. Why is the tone strict It's so we're literally the accents are gone. I mean you can listen to any regional newscast her and they could be from Boston or California. You aren't supposed to know. I think it's because we have this false notion of objectivity and like there's, like that's news authority, they no, no, no, I think,

I think it's really a question. I think it's it's not like what does it mean to be objective and is it adding something or is it taking something away? I think so often I think I'm the guy having objective can be quite good within occasionally what it means is a kind of forced false up to so I got out of it. Imitation detention of someone who is serious but the way you BC, So by pretending you don't see things where they are not really well put yet with it relevant when some brilliant. Your time as Rapporteur has to call a political science professor to get them to say that Trump blatant, breaking the law is a political problem. Right leg one, can assert that one needs an expert to state it. Can we skip that? Stop right, political note, that is that, like it's not me saying it, I'm quoting the people saying it it's just it's kind of the posture of how you have to be, I do its extra challenging right now, because we should acknowledge. In this conversation we have a white house. That's trying to de legitimize the press and has played this

the dope game where he wants an opponent and he's doing this w w e with the media and therein Ashley challenging position, because you can ignore it also, if you take the bait, you're playing this game so Do you see any hope for major media organisations, to change from with them, or do you think that all of the change has to come from new organizations outside the traditional news business. I mean. What do you guys think May I haven't been in one of those bigger exception, so I dont know like how much you know how much people can push again. State or are they just sort of lagging indicator and they have to like wait to be disrupted? I think they have to wait to be disrupted. To some I mean you do see sort of CBS this morning. They have a calm, substantive approach. There aren't we do the other data right their spots and so awareness that there's another way? I just think

making so much money doing at the current way that there's gonna be no motivation to experiment, but that just means there's opportunity for other people Have the major news organisations done enough to fix the glaring problem of sexism within them read that I use happening through the book. Boys on the bus was literally true all young men covering presidential campaigns. I think there are some incredible new jobs, z, amazing journalists. Anchoring shows Margaret Brennan is is doing see without account. Vaccination in others, amazing woman out there like has gone far enough. Yet now. I think sexism was a problem. Forty years ago thirty years ago? Twenty and today listen I've right not to call out any news organisations in particular, but last night, CNN had five hours moderated town halls. There were three presidential candidates, In those town halls who are female, they had not one female moderator in five hours of television,

you don't have a one woman on that stage is striking to me I'd like do they not see. It was not king, which is also a crazy, because I've seen Poppy Harlow do one of those in a town halls of presidential candidates in she's, one of the best moderators. Yes, there poppies Great Dan, A great deal about issues, dont want to use funds and there is a long list of exceptional reporting talent, that's female! I just it's not just a quota thing like I've been steeped in this social science, the social science should. First, all women are the majority of news viewers you that a larger female audience. When you have women shaping questions too and women at the front, its because I relate to the woman. It's because women tend to conduct politics. With less of the rhetorical back and forth and more of the. How does it impact me as a human? What is that it kitchen table pay off on this and an that's? What we viewers prefer, so you actually engage more women in politics. When you have women making these decisions are participating

and to their losing a whole audience by not doing that. It just confounds me and on the other end of this, how do you see sexism shaping the way? The media covers the democratic presidential candidates right now, because there's been this through long running they since the beginning of the primary. You know ever their day, we were just talking about this Warren Releases, a new, very substantive policy and yet the men in the field are getting in a far more coverage. I mean to me a sort of truth: too bad habits of the news media serve converging in one it's hard to separate them. Both one is sexism that's been there. Long time. The other is the reluctance to cover substance right buffer style. I think I mean the Elizabeth WAR War and challenges its Nick, I dont know what the resistances, if its purely sexism or if it's also like anti elite, elite Zambia. She sounds Harvard III, I dont know

he clearly has the most thought out substantive policy positions of anyone and she's doing well on the ground? So what up the Everything is so it's you know super like they know now not to use certain words. You can't call women shrill right candidate show you can't say there on likeable can talk about their clothes, but legs to their finding new ways to not like em, You know, and I wonder the club which our story on abusing her staff did have a gender valence Lake was L B. J Us into a staff was broken honour. Now you know yes or no right, so I do think that I think that there are mindful of doing it better and yet can't help themselves. To me. It seems like a lot of that conversation around sexism is the things that the bad thing ascribed to women that are not ascribe to men? Do you see the opposite of that as well, that there are good qualities that that it that its

here for a man to seem interesting to the media, here for someone to seem like a leader. Yet why think there's a natural inclination to see a man is an authority figure. Like you, I mean keep hearing. This conversation right now, which is Democrats, must if he Donald Trump. Therefore they can't take a risk on a woman or a person of color. It must be the traditional thing which is a white guy which is a legitimate debate on one hand, but it also reveals are biases. I think that again, goes back to the thing about how women approach politics differently, which is like less about the rhetoric and more or the combat or the poles like that. Station. Can I cursed like that area? Fixation on pulls women, voters Effingham shit about. Stop telling me this one's doing two points. Better, I don't Here I want to know this person saying this on health care. Will that be preexisting condition covered you're not like tell me, here for alors right, and I think that's the difference. It's like

the women candidates come at it. From the substantive point of view, the media, like. Ok, ok, but like what's your attack line and a like oriented and indifferent. I know it sounds super gender essential list, but I do think its duration super gender, not at all. I think you're hitting on a huge problem which is within the convention, in about issues in substance, is very specific and we all understand what we're talking about. The conversation around Elect ability is all coated and we're not really sad, voter think which is male it was a white male looks like a present times are therefore they somehow think they're more electable. I think so much these pull respondents and in the questions that are being debated on, cable news are about race engender it. We don't say it's the ethically. Think it as a worse conversation. Also quoted on ideology is well it's race, gender and electable is a model. Total a short while for sure I mean in the media. Its immediately are you concerned about this left fringe of your party? I mean that's their orientation, because it's all centralism, centralism,

I dont know how you have that other conversation that you're talking about Tommy would like talking. Oh by gender and raised because our some nervous about it, but I also think so we I go back to after two thousand. Eight people would talk about, there's less faith in government than ever before. Right there is a poll on that and the media started telling the public that's so frequently. I think it made its crew like you have less based on government than ever before. You don't believe in government and then suddenly the numbers are rising. So I wonder of constantly heating that only a white guy is electable makes that more than I was gonna set up, because I do think if you, if you take bowls- and you ask for me and the electorate right, you will find that some of this code of language we use on ability is the perception that a lot of voters have they will say I want someone who electable, because and they'll just naturally gravitate to white male sent right, but the media not only reinvent reinforces it. It probably,

said and so like at some point. You know it's a vicious cycle, but the people who have the power to change it are the ones reporting than because the people the media, will say? Well, that's what people actually believed its eye, but why do they believe it because their information source tells them at all? a hundred percent. If you asked the question in a certain way, you find a sound bite that says that you seek it out and then you find it well. We're gonna fix within Europe, and you certainly are the boy is savage NEWS by Jessica, Ellen and also go out on Instagram at Jessica Yellin, and it is news not knows it's fantastic psychotic. Guy thinks we're gonna die with last begs just beyond for joining us and we'll talk to you later bye, bye,

yeah.