George Floyd’s murder sparks nationwide protests against police brutality and systemic racism, Donald Trump responds by hiding in the White House and tweeting, and Joe Biden ventures out to meet with protesters and black community leaders. DeRay Mckesson joins to talk about what police reforms actually work, and Atlanta Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms talks to Jon F. about grappling with this crisis as a mayor and a mother.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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I welcome the pod, save America, I'm Johns ever I'm John love it and Tommy later on
is part. We have Atlanta Marrakech, Lance bottoms and our friend, you re my cousin to talk about the nation, wide protests against police brutality and what can be done to actually change the system
We also talk about her Donald Trump and Joe Biden responded to the crisis. Quick, no before we begin
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news. We are now a week into a series of massive nation, wide protests against police brutality and systemic racism that began when George Floyd was killed after Minneapolis Police officer, Derek Chauvelin kneeled on his neck for eight minutes, while three other officer stood by and did nothing even as Floyd repeatedly said, he couldn't breathe and cried out for help on Friday, Shovin was charged with third degree, murder and second degree manslaughter. The three other officers have yet to be charged. Minnesota attorney, General Keith Ellison is
in charge of the case over the weekend, protests spread to over one hundred and forty cities and while all of them started peacefully, many have not ended that way. As the New York Times reports quote, video showed police officers using batons, tear gas, pepper spray and rubber bullets on protesters by
sanders and journalists, often without warning or seemingly unprovoked
and while the overwhelming majority of protesters have been peaceful, they have all
in a small number of anarchists right wing extra
Miss and other individuals who looted stores, destroyed property, set fires and provoked violence, leading to the mobilization of the National Guard in twenty four states and more than two dozen curfew.
Is something on a scale we haven't seen since Doktor Martin Luther king was assassinated in nineteen sixty eight guys. I want to stop there and get your reactions to the protests to the police into the chaos both what you ve seen and read from around the country and what we have seen right here in LOS Angeles over the weekend. Let's start with
Peaceful protests themselves, love it. What's your reaction, my general reaction to all of it is: there is not
about the violent parts of this. The chaotic parts of this destructive parts of this
that detracts from the moral pro.
I need the the
this of the overall cause, and simply because
airs, look better on television. They are given equal billing, but it's
worth remembering that you know.
In some sense, these our protest that descended into something else, but in a in
larger, and I think more important since there was a massive protests across the country and then this
part of it that's being
I'd tied to it, because that's how
breathing is covered in our politics. Everything is sort of
everything is seen through a political lens, and you know you see on both. You see efforts to try to tar the pro
ass themselves. Because of what happened after that's Tommy was variation.
So what I M excited here, you're you're interviewed the mayor and cited talked to re because I feel like I need to do more work on figuring out, like what activism is the best year like what legislation we should push for what changes I don't feel like. I have a lot of answers yet, but
This is an intense emotional we can so like. I just want to talk about two things that were stuck in my head:
The first is a very dumb story from when I was in high school. I was driving with a buddy of mine like after football practice, we're going to someone else's house, and I was
rock on the other way? And I don't know what got into my head, but his sirens went on like he's going to pull me over, and I thought I could like get away maybe, and
my car was made in eighteen, eighty seven and I absolutely could not get
way, and I was pulled over me
ITALY and then through more cars, pulled up
and the story ends with me getting a bunch of
stir violations may speeding ticket but like not arrested and not handcuffed, not wrapped up and
What I did not realise, then that is very clear to me Now- is that if I'm not like a white blonde kid from Data Massachusetts, if I'm a fine black and I'm from Dorchester, I promise
thrown in jail.
And maybe kicked out of school and, like my life, as I know it, today's unrecognizable rights. It was like,
One thing I just kept thinking about another
was how I felt on Saturday night
I could see on tv video, a people
destroying shops and lighting fires, unlike literally marching towards where I lived, and then on my own street accounts. I my house, I could see people some of the same people, loading stuff into a U hall, that they had parked on my street that they had stolen and the next morning like love, it I'm sure we walked by the same shops, some of them clearly labelled like black owned and in a lot of them.
Destroyed or burn worker feed and, like you, just saw these people trying to pick up the pieces and so like
that awareness of this time in my life in that privilege and then that fear I felt, can feel like
competing emotions, but I felt them both, and I also
a lot of anger, because you know that the the video
Floyd's. Murder is like one of the worst things I've ever seen. So is the video of a lot arbour being shot, but the police are supposed to protect.
Citizens and people be
abused by the cops
literally pay their salaries and have for years. So that is why your people were marching and protesting
and like you were saying, love it. I really hope the focus stays on that.
Core issue and the need to end police brutality. But what was like
gutting in enraging was watching the reaction by a lot of those same police prove the protesters point write me like you saw
These cars driving to crowd, you saw journalists. Blinded by rubber bullets. A black CNN reporter was arrested, live on air victim to call
kids in Atlanta were like terrorize right there, their windows smashed their pepper spray, their taste. This
brutality is happening in real time and you just like when you hear the cries from people who feel
they are treated as a threat when there
marching or birdwatching or voting. You know like how can you not
you're that so, as is
areas, the violence was in a scary. As you know, it felt for me
our uniting some little fucking anti wanna be white kid on my street with like stolen,
boxes in shit. You know
more angry today about like the state, sanctioned brutality and escalation that we all saw and self
where enough to know that if there had been protests in their hadn't been all these actions, it wouldn't be on the news- and we probably wouldn't be talking about it today. So you know I'm just trying to figure out like what the next day
is how we stay focused, how we dont let Trump do what he tried to recall to cap or negligence and make this about
some made up issue about supporting the troops versus police brutality.
And then just like focus our forestry
Jane and enact actions on the right things yeah I was. I was trying to think to myself why why why George Floyd's killing was the one that sparked these massive demonstrations? When you know we ve seen police killings with four years now, you know, as I do, in some regions
ninety nine percent of police killings from twenty fourteen to twenty nineteen did not result in officers even being charged with let alone convicted of a crime not even being charged. Ninety nine percent of police killings- and you know twenty fourteen was Ferguson and I do think you have a country right now. That is,
and in so much pain we are in the middle of a pandemic, a pandemic that has disproportionately affected people of color. That is disproportionately killing people of color. We have a health care system that you know is sort of racked by disparities. Even before the pandemic hit. We have the economic followed from the pandemic that again has fallen even more acutely on people of color black on businesses by members of our community people of color and
we have seen how many of these police killings? How many of these videos now now that we're in an age of viral videos- and there are protests- and there are- you know There- are reforms and there is voting and yet it keeps happening and we don't see change and it. You know when you, when you put all these things together and when you ve had all these people get everyone home for months now, and people sick and people out of work, and they see that view
which I agree is like one of the hardest things I've ever had to watch. You of course understand it. You've course under that you wonder why it hasn't happened even sooner, and I do think Tommy, like you said, like the police response to this over the weekend, has maybe prove the point of the protest.
More than anything else that we saw in that way. I think the protests have already succeeded in showing, because look
we know that and love of yours and as we know that the television and especially local news,
gee, I don't watch lotta, let no local news and I watched it this weekend.
You know local news wants to find a fire. They left define the looting
and you know it was all their the fire in the looting, but I also think what broke through in the media and on the news this weekend were these examples of police using aggressive, forced to respond to these in Louisville, a man was killed when police officers in National Guard soldiers say they return fire after someone in a large group fired at them time. You think you name some of these, but you know in New York City, a police car drove into a crowd. Police officers threw him into the ground so forcefully. She had a seizure, a child, a spread of Mason Seattle, dimension, weapon Atlantis to college students or taste, and then especially, you know, I think, to wake up
Ass. An and other people unfortunately has to come to this. How many journalists were hit with rubber bullets sprayed with mace arrested, even after identifying themselves as members of the press
and targeted specifically targeted species
quickly, target shot at with rubber ends? You know what went through my mind watching all this was like the police know that phone cameras are everywhere these days they
that their body cameras right. Some of them are wearing body cameras.
Doing this. Anyone like what is that? What does that say to you guys
You know, I seen I've seen all that footage, the cop turning the rubber bullets onto the journalist journalists being arrested all of this
and what you actually to me. What I see is this
to rise police presence. You know these guys.
In you know in hell
that's an Riah gear, their faces are covered and I do think that that contributes and you know,
Rubber bullets are dangerous and, and they are,
You know we have these two things happening in these that the the
move towards these non lethal technology is rubber bullets and
their forms of technology on top of the militarization of the police, which has seen police kind of build out. These,
Marie vehicles, these incredibly tariff
go around the cities with and all that I think, contributes not.
The cities, with all of I think, contributes not only to the dehumanization of
citizens, their sworn to protect, but also to their own dehumanization. They are part of this organisation. They are part of the machine that that that that there's and impunity that comes
standing on a failings of people with a military vehicle behind you, your face completely covered in a line of people. So you know
Beyond just the need to make sure police officers individually or held accountable, there's the needle
demilitarize the police. There is a need to look at not just that
of deadly force, but the use of these intermediate weapons whether trouble
pepper spray, mace, tear gas, theirs
I need to look at what's going to happen in the next few months as budgets across the country are, are
our slashed dramatically. You know, LOS Angeles, is about to go through an incredible period of of of budget cuts because
of the pandemic and the economic crisis or cities across the country and the west
where will, whereas the, whereas the limited amount of money gonna go it's going to continue to go to reinforce this
militarized police force
this militarized version of of lawn.
Meant that we ve seen take hold across the country or is it gonna go to? Schools is gonna go to to people in need. Is it gonna go to social services? So to me that
as the next place, this conversation goes, and you know one other one.
This. As you know, I Republicans have been gleefully pointing out all weekend that these are democratic, controlled states in democratic control, cities and democratic control,
the council's and democratic mayors and look
at the ways in which
Police have not been reflecting the democratic values of the cities that they govern, that they actually dont reflect the will of the poor,
but in those cities because of the power of police unions because of a nurse because of political fear on the part,
politicians is all I think, the next part of the conversation I will say also looking around the country that some of the different reports it doesn't have to be this way right when there are protests that the police don't have to be responding with this kind of a group
the forest because you know what they say. Oh well, there's protests in this violence, and you know you don't I'll handle it, and so it's tough to control a crowd and is different things if balance, but in places where there has been sort of reform of police departments where there are more some more diverse to police departments where there is a history of better relations between the police and the community, you saw peaceful protests that didn't necessary
devolve into some of this aggression. You saw this and Newark there were officers,
taking a knee in certain places, their officers holding a signs that said end police brutality. I think one of the best examples over the weekend and mare bottoms pointed this out during her press conference in Atlanta, Atlanta, police chief Erika Shields actually went outside and just talk to the protesters in the crowd for awhile actually
at one point we agree with you. It's fucked up and nothing changes, and that is not to say
Oh well, it's not all cops. There are some good cuts to its to say that it's possible to get police officers to changed its past and it's not individual change, its systemic change in its reform
but these protests bet you're seeing over the weekend it was seen over the weekend are seeing right now can have a difference. They can bring about reform. You can have a police department with enough reform with enough pressure with enough protest with enough change. That will actually protect
serve people and not act like basically what we're seeing in the majority of police departments in this country acting like right now, it's possible
yeah, and I just think you now I may that was it.
Look at in you know, I really spoke with them with the mare, but
She said something that was striking to me, which you know we talked about the two officers they got fired and Atlanta, and she said I have to be honest before this weekend. If that had happened,
I might not have been involved in. They may not have been fire. I might not have checked those body cameras six or seven times, because I saw everything you know because of these protests
why we acted- and I should like I'm glad I did and they were fired, but these do have the effect of bringing about change or they cannot
I do think it is telling that these sort of moments of humanity in conversation among police and protestors were seen by people and lifted up because they felt unusual and then, when you think about the George Floyd,
Murder, that's not even the first time that we ve seen such a video come out of Minnesota. Belinda
steel was murdered by Minnesota cop. It wasn't the first video showing someone
in short to death, those Eric Garner, and, I think, like.
The regularity of this kind of just like whore
fine, like snuff film, that they just gets thrown to social media. All the time is part of the cumulative effect that lead to these protests over the weekend
its particularly searing and scarring for people in LOS Angeles who were here and ninety ninety two who, as vivid memories of the weather the city, was torn apart and sought yeah it's yeah.
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at last thing I want to talk about before we get to Trumpet Biden is how every day of these protests has devolved into chaos. Buildings in cop cars have been set on fire stores,
looted and destroyed, especially alot of black and latino. An immigrant on small businesses. We specially southern in here, in LOS Angeles in downtown,
What do we know and not know about who is responsible for the chaos side of this, because I think this has been very difficult to untangle
over the weekend I mean listen, I'm really like hesitated to to
say a lot about this, because I just genuinely think we dont know there was a ton of inaccurate data right
Minnesota like oh, every arrest has been format. Estate turned out, that was total bullshit. The vast majority of arrests were reinstate, I think it is.
Foolish to say, oh, this is outside agitator x. I think in some ways that can under cut the real
anger and frustration of people who are on the streets, and maybe one
part of the violets, but can understand it. You know, and so, like look
I understand people saying please don't burn down please and destroy things in part of our own community. I do think
Focusing on that part of it versus the underlying systemic problem is not the right focus. I wanna be focused on the issue of police brutality.
So I think it is incredibly hard to figure out sort of who's responsible who's. Not we don't.
Enough reporting. Yet I think it is
incredibly annoying for protesters to continued to be asked about the violence when the focus should be on the pro
ass. I think the reason that we're talking about it is in a political context, because this is how Donald Trump and the right are already coming at this, and so we should talk about so how trumps responding. He is basically react,
The crisis, exactly is how you expect them to hiding in the White House and and crazy shit
Thursday. The president effectively called for violence against the protesters in Minneapolis, tweeting quote the,
thugs are disappearing. The memory of George Floyd and I won't let that happen. Just
to Governor TIM, Woltz and told him the military is with him all the way any differ
multi and we will assume control, but when the looting starts the shooting starts. Thank you exclamation point. Thank you as a real nice touch of the internet,
tromp tried to walk back the comments a little on Thursday following up the tree, explaining that his comment quote was spoken as a fact
not, as a statement doesn't mean anything
aside from a few other crazy tweets, the president has said nothing over the weekend because
According to the Washington Post quote
and some of his advisers calculated that he should not speak to the nation, because he had nothing to say no ten
while policy or action to announce. Nor did he
an urgent motivation to try to bring people together, so he let his tweets speak for themselves. Tell me why do you think he tried to walk
I back the when the looting start, shooting starts tree, which was
Horrendous and a, but usually he doesn't want back his horrendous tweet
yeah I mean look at. It sounds like some from some of the reporting that he
actually genuinely scared, even some of his closest supporters with that kind of
language, it was so alarmist. It was so clearly throwing gasolene on the fire that people like
Z, gram, we're on the Sunday shows criticising and for the first time in years, but like
just think, the problem is like trumpeting,
favor of police brutality because
a call today with a bunch of governors where he told them you have to dominate. They're gonna run
over you to look like a bunch of jerks. You have to dominate. Those are quotes right in any trying to get them to focus on fucking flag burning, so he's trying to
this about anything but police brutality because he supports
police brutality remember a couple years ago when he gave a speech to a bunch of police and he litter
joked with them. He told them. It was ok too rough up suspects. He said, stop putting your hands on the top of their heads when you push them in the sky car. It's ok to rough em up a little bit right like he's in feed
were of all of this, so that has been his primary and only message the rest.
The time look like
You talk about the politics of it, but it is. It is remarkable when you think back
and in what Obama did those moments and how it was coverage and how much was
save Obama. How much was expected of Obama and of other Democrats verses
How little is expected Donald Trump peaches he hid behind is good
in his house in Shit posted in sent, tweets and couldn't
even bring himself to address the nation to love it. What do you think of it? Even one in Tommy saying right now? There is this sort of dichotomy and how trumps acting
like on one hand, he is the fucking. You know George, while as a book
honor come to life and in twenty twenty
talking about shooting and looting and stuff like that. But it's all these tweets,
inside the White House where he's cloistered he's not speaking to anyone he's not going out, he's, not talk. Anyone- and he seems, like I think, he's
smaller, almost than he's ever ban that at this moment of great crisis and unrest in the country, the president is reduced to just tweeting out sort of racist shit and attacking the protesters
that kind of stuff. It's it's interesting. You I mean it's an optical illusion, he's the same size
Yeah mean look.
You know. There's all these imposition you will be aware is the president, whereas if he should be speaking, I can't believe he's cloistered inside the White House, not saying anything just tweeting.
You know. Obviously, that's true really. I think what people are saying as I wish we had a president who is worthy of this moment and from whom we would want to hear. I dont need to hear Donald Trump addressed the kind
hey, I don't think anybody know whose lamenting the fact that he's not speaking, would like that either
he doesn't have the tools that right what he has. What are the tools
Basel can't led can't manage, carry
sure can assuage canopy empathize. Those are not can inspire. He doesn't have that in his arson. Also, he can distract. He can t taken in sight. He can bring
That's what he's doing now with the governors you know in and of course,.
You know I see, I've saw instantly covered
happened. Two heads had CNN as the news of the call was coming in and the call was cut
straight right, some something along the lines of you know. Donald.
Took a heavy hand with governors urging law and order calling on them to be tough and dumb?
Even in that language, it say concession
to Trump. He didn't work for him. Governors don't work for Donald Trump he's just looking for somebody to blame and looking for someone to yell at because he's scared and alone in his house
and he is like a pandemic just like an endemic just like the pans anything you do, the man you know, in the absence of a human being in
job with any capacity to me
this moment whether about the economic depression he caused or the pandemic. He felt
contain or the protests
in our cities, which he has you know in turn,
the policy only sought to make worse
there's nothing. He can say, there's nothing. You can do what
so we have no idea. We should start by saying how how the politics of this will unfold, of course,
but you can tell that you know the Trump team has
sort of a narrative in mind here
We ve seen it sort of unfold over the last couple days, vague
They are very big on this is all outside,
agitators Antigua, you know Trump tried to declare Antigua Terrorist organisation, which is just
and because Anti VA, isn't an organization
and- and you can't really do that, but
they're trying to say you know, he's trying to have both ways because of course he's trying to he thinks his path to victory is
either winning a higher percentage of the black vote, a good luck or at least trying to make sure that
some segment of black voters, stay home and dont vote for Joe Biden in so what he wants to say is the protesters are
and you know you know, honour George voids memory,
but these are all radical left and tea for people
destroying our cities and everything is out of control.
Governors are letting it happen, and you have to be tough and they are bad.
In that you know the longer the
We see images
our television screens of fires and looting that more people are on the country will say yeah I dont want
that may be Donald Trump right about this. What are we think we're time
think about sort of like the the political strategy that that Trump is betting on here
I mean you, you can tell them they're they're divided even inside the White House, and they look on a personal level like I
very worried about him, tweeting or going out and giving a speech in poor and gas on the fire, but is also
no consolation that we have no presence
and no one is in charge and no one is doing anything, and so you are also seeing
public, including Whitehouse AIDS,
their worried about trumps tone and, of course, they're doing it on backgrounds than York Times like they usually do their cowards. But then you also see one white ass aide telling the New York Times that they think that images of destruction could be helpful to trumpet because he's
the focus on law and order message, and so like
you know, I've read a lot recently about Nixon in the sixties and a backlash to the civil rights movement and the Watts riots and how Nixon twisted
Events in Chino that racism for political advantage and pulled all these
white voters and the Republican Party, I think
find to draw liked predict the future from that history,
is very difficult for a million reasons, but one key difference here is that Trump is currently in charge. Rightly
John. He is reading
In this time of absolute chaos, which comes on top of a pandemic
that is literally the worst in the world
We are saying earlier, like he does not
looked scared, any looks
scared. Any looks.
Vicious, a nasty and all the things people hate about him. Even trumped supporters are playing out publicly through these tweets,
so, yes M. Am I worried about Donald Trump, Sir?
equally using racism for political advantage, absolute
I am worried about everything, but it didn't work in twenty eight
right. The caravan threats did in
Do what he wanted them to do, and I do think people are exhausted by his divisiveness and I hope I hope and pray that they
look for something else in this moment level. Anything
yeah. Maybe there's two things. Is the politics in the actual policy heading in a trump
CS clearly, even in his walking back his his loose
shooting rhyme theirs
evidence right even to trump that what he's doing is is a bit more nuanced eat a little bit more complicated than you'd like it to be. What he'd like to do is just fucking go after the protesters attack
programmes declare war on the protesters. He know
it is a heart. That's that's! That's what he wants right that in his heart, but he knows you can't do it, so he could. He thinks
and cheaper somebody that so that I can feel it doesn't have an arm rent right.
Rights of innovative lack. I know exactly what you would be doing in a second term right right, but he knows that you knows that anti, but is it is less, has fewer friends and
has fewer supporters and is more controversial and his and is at less. You know that's right
and so you know to me it's over
focusing on anti because he thinks politically that's more advantageous, but I also think there is danger in that too, because you know brood,
the end result of down Trump saying we're going to crack down on anti fa. You know
that it will end up being a crackdown on the
community on the protesters on people have nothing to do with anti writer. He doesn't care about that. That's a good go for him, so it is worth remembering that you know you know. Tommy made this point earlier. We talked about this right. There's this effort to kind of sort the blame.
The violent aspects of what followed the protests in its worth, remembering that, no matter what the
Explanation is one more focused on the violent aspects and not the process itself. It is an opportunity for the people that want to
use that violence as a means to.
Paint with a broad brush the entire movement and that
the true, whether you're blaming Antigua, blaming
opportunists. You just joined in the protest to loot blaming the protests itself. It ultimately is about making sure that the focus is on chaos and violence and not systemic reform, because
that's what Trump once Doktor Warren again, you know
acts of the nineteen sixty eight, the Nixon comparisons
was tried before right? This is the same playbook than has been run before in the sixties, right down to the outside
agitators and they were communists, not anti for at the time and Nixon was screaming
an order and they they. They wanted to use the scenes of chaos to their political advantage
It is one of the reasons that Martin Luther King and the civil rights Movement preached non violence and made it sort of the central message of the movement, peace and non violence and injustice, because they knew that they were going to spit that that that was going to be Nixon strategy that that was going to be the strategy of the racist all across America and
required tremendous discipline to have that message and tremendous discipline to not exert you notice
make sure that you are non violent
and so it is, you
I like they. They are going to try as hard as they can to make it about everything, then what this is really about: witches, police brutality and systemic racism and how to change it.
And I do think from that from from our side, whether its democratic activists in the street
focusing on that message and getting it through over and over again and not letting yourself get distracted is probably the most important that yeah edge to quite things. We do dear point like
the really really awful reality of of history in this country is as on.
Level an admirable.
Brave. It was for those people to preach non violence. The violence inflicted upon people like Martin Luther King
and other freedom, writers and activists was what woke up the knee,
send in like shocked the conscience of a lot of people who ultimately came around the supporting civil rights legislation. So that way, violence has a very central part of that history, but
just want to point out. One thing you said earlier: you correctly noted that in tv
isn't an organization and in Trump tweet
that he's gonna label them a terrorist group like just to keep up the State Department designate
AIDS organizations, foreign terrorist groups,
then they use a bunch, a tool to like choke off me,
each of them rights like all these material support statutes. They used to prevent you from sending.
Ash to Hamas, like
him trying to apply that set of
was to anti, which is not an organisation which is seemingly maybe like about
people in the- U S is just so unbelievably idiotic and I think, speaks to how
how to flailing and has no policy proposal, but has actually walked back a bunch. A really important things. Obama did to try to address some of these policing disparities. You know since he took office,
Let's talk about eurobonds. Response on Friday, he spoke to George Floyd's fan
We on Saturday he released a statement supporting the protests on Sunday. He left his house for the second time since the pandemic began to visit the site of the protests in Wilmington Delaware and spoke of some of the protesters,
and today Monday he met with community leaders at a black church in Wilmington. He also have
to say in a video from over the weekend. This time,
to take a hard look at the uncomfortable truths. Is
for us to face the deep
open wounds. We have
Need justice for George boy we need
Real police reform cops to a higher
stand that so many immaculately me then
Bad cops, accountable.
Repairs, relationship between law enforcement, the community there sworn to protect,
we need to stand up as a nation with a black community.
With all men. Minority communities
and come together is one America. As such,
Lovett, what do you think about his comments and appearances since the protests of began? I think the truth is
binding out there and saying things that are empathetic. The that shows
he's listening that he's paying attention that he's learning that he is
seeking to put forward a set of policies that actually speak to the scale of the crisis.
Or at least, is open to doing so.
To listen and and be a president whose doors
open does a lot of what he has to do to show a contrast, Donald Trump in his absence and and or or worse than absences contribution,
the chaos into the kind of the fever pitch of this moment. Yet
Astead Herndon, had a great piece in the New York Times over the weekend, where he spoke to a number of black voters and leaders who I get to Biden's original campaign pitch of return to normalcy. Isn't right! For this moment I think that's fairly obvious
now can rest Reverend Jesse Jackson said our needs are moderate. The absence of trump isn't enough, and Stacy Abrams said this about voting in particular quote. You cannot
If someone to a behaviour that they don't believe will actually bring change. How do you think Biden goes about answering this sort of larger challenge? I literally cotton copy and they said that that Stacy Abrams quote
talk about today that the next part of her sentences. We have this
by saying what you feel and what you fear is real, and I thought that
a really succinct and powerful way to put at which, as you know,
just tell activists who are so frustrated and fed up with
well, hey. Your job is to organise and vote in November if they feel, like that's a return to a system that wasn't serving them to begin with. I do think Biden,
sorry to internalize that speak too, that frustration in that
fear and that hurt? Unlike
and in a way that it is familiar now like that is actually his strength as being able to empathize in reach people, even if he can be completely clunky with his word. Sometimes. I think, like that,
Humanity is in him and its decent and it has served as a stark contrast.
Glad to see that
he went out to the site of a protest yesterday? It it sounds like this week he's really starting to get out of the house and sort of like the corona.
As bubble, which was very understandably keeping him constrained by
you know. I think they ve done well so far, yet
I do too, I have to say, like you know them them
lashes onto narratives and then they get lazy and they keep the narrative even when its feels very old and there's a bunch of stories like
is where's Joe Biden, and all of this is Joe Biden still in the basement, like Joe Biden spent
more than Trump has yeah he's been talking about a more than Trump, as he's got more statements than Trump as and now he's out of his house. He was both that you know at that,
meeting with protestors
is an meeting with with leaders in a black church today, and so I think
You know step one. He you know you can you can check that?
he has showing empathy. He is out there, I think sort of-
next step is gonna. Be will he sort of deep
hail, and I know we already has you know he has sort sort of an agenda and he has criminal justice reform policies, but part of these unity task forces that he's put together with Bernice campaign folks is about sort of figuring out what new policies they come up with on a number of topics in criminal justice reform and police reform are one of those topics, and so I think that's going to be the next up. Let's see sort of what he comes out with, possibly even this week when it comes to police reform and do those reforms sort of meat the moment, but I do think on just being the president. We need right now being a leader who can heal and emphasise and an an attempt to try to
in the country together, while also recognising sort of the deep and systemic and justice and racism that exists. I think he's here, he's done a really great yeah and he is it. You look ear. He has a detailed policy plan on his website that people should check out if they want to get its worst specifics. It's for the african american community in this country.
It's interesting. I mean like there's an older school approach to politics,
where someone like Joe Biden, my former plan, like that in its like a bunch of tax credits
other things, that sort of lift all boats but would disproportionately help the african american community, because for a variety of reasons,
I think it is good that he made a plan that is a little more specifically tailored to that pain. Like
and into the needs of people in the black community and things at his hearing, so I did think that that was really worth reading in and taken into
to talk more about what real change and structural reform would actually look like were joined by the host of positive, the people directly Cason, whose also
co founder of campaign, zero, a platform of research.
Policy, solutions dedicated to ending police brutality in America, Dray how you doing good it.
Lack of adding people are hungry for changing and the thing that, unlike twenty fourteen, is that we actually just know so much more that we knew before about the way the system protects police and I'm an excited to figure out how we stop it. Will that be-
my first question in terms of police pretend
an police reform. What has changed in what hasn't between Ferguson in Minneapolis?
living, as is that, like what people realise that the police have actually come more people since the court does not less right.
Because it is in the news less people like I got better. It actually never got better the police killing it pretty consistent rate, the only
top wine is that in cities that police actually killed unless people so in a very lively cities hundred live in cities
statically significant decrease, but it's all set binding
Greece and rural communities in suburban community. That is so great that it completely wiped out the gains we get in cities. So that's one in March
what twenty twenty the police actually cannot at the same rate in number as in March and April, twenty nine. So called red
pouring team lock down no impact on the numbers in twilight,
was actually the first ever were black people, more afraid of being your by an officer. They ve been killed,
a community violence alike.
This is not a new issue at a huge deal, a directive on the people killed by strangers actually care about police officer, we think of
the solutions, it's too big buckets, the first bucket is ready.
The power, the police right,
can manage how much power they, how they use forest. That's one bucket
The policeman contracts, and then there I shrink the raw
use the power, its use, the forest policies and police contracts and in their eyes,
the role is real
using that, I'm all the
I set out in the country only five, recently the arrest of reviling crime by presenting its really low,
We stand police department is efforts like ninety percent, so we d
offload all the resources they get from the start that has nothing to do with emergency intervention that might require force. So like do
need somebody with a gun to show up for missing kid now.
We need some of the shop for somebody who, as I can.
The crashed on asylum highway. Probably my like MRS can't, like we here. That is the majority. Now one cause we
you. Don't need anything like the police for those incidents and we should actually shift the resources at other places, drew.
Let's we focused on trouble. I obviously deejay is a, but can you talk to
well about decisions that are getting made at a local.
Level and the people
making those decisions and how
Listeners can focus on activism at that level that can vote out the bad people in and get better folks in place. Yes,
almost all the things that matter with the police at the local level. Eighty thousand police departments, local, that the J funds must police departments, but we ve always been fighting to get them to condition. Funding
by how well the police do things like accountability and something I ve never done at local level,
to tell you the findings, it don't work and then I ll talk about the two things are doing so,
Think about what a solution is a solution as any two things asked about change, police behaviour and change the outcomes to say, for example, there are
The solutions are my change behaviour to say, for example, we can weaken shouted. The police are like nice people, so less complaint happen,
kill the same number of people that change in behaviour had no impact.
The changing outcome so we're looking for things that you boss, so what
and was calmly side of things is body cameras, a body care. My data is mixed at best in something
Yes, it is a positive relationship to behavior change, but it's so negligible that we don't concern about a scalable solution to
there, too big training that police go through. One is implicit bias in the others, metal training, both
he's training, change, police attitudes, they don't change police bagger, the fortress,
interesting drama number black officers? So the number
Black officers actually does matter.
It doesn't matter until you reach the tipping point of over thirty five percent black there. Only
twelve police departments in the country that had even thirty percent black officers. So
this might be. An interesting solution is not available in the fifth community
these people talk a lot about community policing. Now we
community policing is a racist at the core beds
black people and poor people you're, like you know, I need you to go- play football with my son to treat him like a whole person or like it's only poor people.
Black people than its. I got take my daughter of ice cream. You like don't killer. I grew that's a racist, but
data also shows that community policing only changes attitude. It doesn't change outcomes, they say,
the biggest impact, as are actually used a forest policies, and we track eight policies
when they are at present. So have you go from
this department that none of these policies to all of them, that a seventy two percent
reduction and police violence huge the pond
He's with cool about them is that their simple Ben
chokehold and strangle owns
making sure that people have to give a warning before they issue
having a duty to intervene. If you see another after engaging misconduct, you actually have to do something about it requires
in the escalation right these alike,
No brainer is air continuum, one for how used force in the police department like these are just
the thing, though, is that it's really hard to get them and acted so chuckles. They get example
only twenty eight of the hundred largest police departments, banjo colds as crazy. That's it
while being re, so
We aren't gonna next somebody's really pushing an army
citizens, with the knowledge of bacon lobby, their embarrassing city, council people,
Ten all eight enact all eight of these because they are the single biggest lever and worship people for that tree
today, you just gotta use a fourth project, dot, org and today, to just learn about the use of force rules.
Mayor in their cities and towns. We have an analysis of that right. Now, the hundred largest cities only roll out this new products coming, hopefully next somebody's it'll be a little bit explain. It will be more than just those policies. It took a long time on the policies because most of his on public, so we
in the last five years, collecting them and gathering them, and they are use of force project outward tell you about
In this age, what you're saying here right you use you, you point,
sort of these efforts to change police culture, mental health, training
implicit bias, training, community, policing say those don't work. You have.
This focus on the policies, the you
the forest policy
duty to intervene. Basically,
as a community of which they are part. The other is about making sure that, even if they don't, even if there is an impulse to use force
of which they are part. The other is about making sure that, even if they don't,
If there is an impulse to use force, aggressor
We too aggressively that there are these other controls to protect people from the police,
Is that your look at this now that basically, these efforts to change police culture have largely failed, and so the effort has to be entirely focused on kind of info.
Meant and making sure that there is accountability or
still see some value in the larger effort to change
the cultures of these police departments and and other mentality of police officers themselves, yet he lives.
Push. I don't know how you changes a culture of anything, so the police, the workplace school, if the peace
in that place, know that the worst consequences for whenever they do we'll be nothing right
I'd say you gotta, may trains as you want to. As many of you know what you could do, Ebay and like nothing,
happened to use a one percent of offices get convicted. Like almost you know, in some places of the seventy four,
options to get fired. Rehired.
So they know their life.
No matter where you can see them, ten million training. Could you imagine if the worst thing you did? U S into another training? It's like yeah, that's not a deterrent
So even a minute. You think many opposition microcosm for all of these things in Minneapolis have the police a get fired. You required in Minneapolis black people, thirteen!
more likely to be clear about police, acid and my people in a minute
But the police you encounter has a closet, says it now
Community oversight structure can ever have the power to discipline a police officer s while right like
I imagine being in that culture yet tricky time with the
police unions, for once I gotta go. I saw SAM tweeting that
in some areas, maybe in Minnesota, when
officer is, is accused of misconduct, but like what happened after George Voice murder, they actually couldn't,
fire them until some sort of mandated waiting periods, which sounds like.
These unions are negotiating contracts that prevail
accountability in almost
any event that talk a little bit about that and how that could be reformed. Yes,
think about policing is not as labour unions, but, like begin already, that's the best way to think about police there, like a lobbyist organization with
special interests that are not the interests of the public, sometimes
we'll come from labour background. Like I used to be a union leader in education there, like all you can't set of attack this year, you like this is not they do.
I care about wages and other insurance. They are homeless, do not protect Nepalese, so in
he's across the country. The union's abbeys causes like sand was saying the opposite me up us after the police got somebody, they have to be made
literally put on a leap for three days, but in the car
It doesn't allow you to terminate them in those three days, which is why the all across the country, these holdings-
The California has allowed this as the India Basque. If someone asked about ass more than a year can never result discipline, regardless of the outcome,
but as a police manage along the investigation is
well, that is that doesn't seem like a fair system.
What is also interesting in this? What we did not twenty fourteen is that there are now three independent state
he's got like I'm no relationship to each other.
Set up shown that the only effective police unions only look at what changed before office that you and eyes and after and if they kill more people,
that is literally the effect in its wake,
eyes: the police unions, they their sole purpose, is to protect officers from accountability.
Three, you tell me the other day. There's a m there. There's a bill
in the House of Representatives right now. That would deal with some of these union contracts.
In a bad way. Yes, I would there's a bill hr, one thousand one hundred and fifty four it's sneaky cuz. It's called public safety, so it
naturally includes far Viner, is your mass like it looks like
the bill geared towards opening up labour for people, but what it
do in a disproportionate way as allow any police department, the country that currently cannot unionized. He would allow them to you guys it would be
a single worse thing that happened and policing in the past six years. It is a policy,
is there, a lot of people on the left are actually supporting which is while, but it is bad. It's a we're. Trying to get as many hours you as possible it-
jar alone. Fifty four is a bad.
Ray things for our thanks for coming on. I know you ve got a lot lot going on, but we're we appreciate you educating us today,
You're gonna be here, and I can't wait to see you guys continue to be in the fight against organised crime.
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your job on the pod. Today, the mayor of Atlanta, Quichua, Lance bottoms Mare, welcome to POD save America. Thank you so much for having me so
you and killer might delivered? Two of the most
viral, and I thought powerful impromptu speeches over the weekend about these protests
and they both happened to be at a press conference that you organised. Can you give us the
story of how they came together. How you doin
who to invite and sort of what was going through your mind. Before you spoke,
I'll tell you on a Friday was whirlwind. I've spent most said that
on Friday will produce payment. Congressional testimony was some other mares arm uncovered nineteen
and I had on the evening news- and it just started not to look good on
So I eventually made my way down to police headquarters and
I wish that I could even remember the sequence of events by
I immediately new to reach out to kill him again and to tee. I,
because I know I have for kids, and I know my voices is not always heard or
listen to and that I had to get somebody who could say the things that need it to be said that I knew would probably wouldn't be received. If I said it,
and we went into the press conference and I didn t I honestly
Couldn't remember what I said after said it I hadn't after came home at night, I'm I watched it on television and
you know I'm a woman of face. I think they're. Those words were divinely given to me
am, I am. I sit at his feet.
All day, long
chocolate whey way. Since then,
her shop, but I think you know that
that's it. That's the common thread with myself and kill him making with chips. We believe that Lamb
We love this city and we we heard with this sitting and end the pain and the frustration is felt by all so many people across Amerika
I think you just you, you got it from us in real time on Friday,
job seems incredibly difficult right now
I might Aubrey was murdered in Georgia. You call that
Jane you said George Floyd's murder make he made you hurt like a mother. Would you always
anger and end the pain that protesters feel
On the other hand, your role as mare is to keep your people safe keeper city from being destroyed. How do you balance that its high
then the reality as if I'm more mayor, I would probably not can even consumers much because it hurts so much.
And it does hurts me so much as a mother and was a model borri like I get this is this is
physical feeling. I give him my stomach. It makes me nauseous arm in you know, with George
Floyd I'd admit. Do I had to watch it because I'd be asked about it, but why
so that I can speak about it as mayor in in feeling that
as I do as a mother to very different things.
And down, and you know it,
Interesting, not oftentime. Look at things on the land
of my kids. In
Things will impact than mine and affect them
but I've had the most interesting conversations with my mother over the past few days.
And my mother said to me last week that this then feel like one thousand. Nine hundred and sixty five in America feels like something before one thousand nine hundred and sixty five and that struck me.
Because my mother grew up in the segregated south.
In that Lana and then I spoke to her yesterday.
Don't count on one hand the number of times I've ever heard or see my mother cry outside of the death of a family member of love, one my mother saw yesterday when she saw talking about George Floyd in in
ah imagining that, being my brother or being one of her grand signs and
I'm sure that to say where's his anger in this frustration in the sadness that we see in this very visible way with young people in our streets, but so many people
I feel they made across a miracle when I look at police office, has taken me with protesters and know that people are being heard. I just my my fear.
I'm. Fine, I am, I fear, remains that the voices will
drowned out by the destruction
and down. You know we got so much work to do. You said on Friday night that a protest has purpose. What specific goals do you think should be the purpose of these protests? Why? I think that the first
this has to be to draw attention, but I also think that on the other side, it's got be a tangible point of satisfaction.
The reality is there will be another black man who dies in America, the hand, the police officers. I wish that they weren't so and I pray that it's not so, but it will likely happen
and we ve, got to know where we China go with this, so
You know, under the Obama administration the same way in the Pandemic handbook was left. There were reforms that were laugh on policing, then American and the launch of my brothers keeper, and all these great initiatives that have tangible outcomes. Em when I spoke on friday- and I talked about the west Side-
that Lana was happening on the West side of Atlanta. Is we ve got job training programmes? We ve got substance abuse programmes. We got wrapped around services, we got police officers who, when they are recruited, interrupt police department had to balance terror at our at promise. You centre on the West side about Lana
those are the things that have happened across Amerika and we ve got a handsome, tangible metrics on what does it mean that every trying to reduce and cars
Ragin, like we're doing in that by about time
in our jail into an equity centre. Are we try them
as your how many more people get jobs in become financially liberated, etc.
I mean, as so many metric said, we ve gotta, be able to articulate and that I think the uprising. Then the protest is one part of it, but we ve gotta know what what is it we're trying to get you on the other side of it? You fired two officers this weekend for excessive use of force against young people who are up has curfew? Do you have fought on how to reform policing in a way to prevent?
that excessive force in the first place. Yet there is a culture change and I can tell you had that happened. Last week I wouldn't watch the video likely
would have seen the video that was on television but
would not have spent four
five hours and my afternoon yesterday, Watchin seven different body, cams five seven times each and
because even for is conscientious, as I am a very things that you
You know very well that that was horrible, less investigate in and let some go to all these who
But with where we are in America, we don't have time to wait. So my police officers.
Just got a very real lesson on what our expectations and our level of tolerance will be in the city going forward. The force was excessive, they gotta be fire period, and I think that those are the tight changes and expectations that we ve gotta, be as leaders to give to our police officers, but also that level of expectation, tar communities, because nobody,
as patients were waiting so that at one point in your speech on Friday night, you said if you want-
engine. America go unregistered about.
New York Times interviewed a young woman who was protesting in South Carolina over the weekend and she said the following about voting. I just don't think that's how change happen.
They ve been telling us to do that for so long and we ve done it and look at everything that still going on. What do you say to
that young women and young people like that who just feel so fresh?
that they don't see the difference that their participation and democracy can actually make them on. The work of art
Lord I've been on my mind day revolutions, not a one time event and my fear
with where we are with Donald Trump as president, even when I look at my kids and look at my my twins are
near my youngest,
They don't remember, President
I'm being president, they ve
about on, but they don't remember what that feels like in an endless concept that
things were happening and moving and working on our behalf, and I think day by day
That's what we're losing and I think that what we
words are especially our young protesters across the country. They don't have the patience for these things than me that for the change, something you gotta give a quick delay.
Roubles, like we ve done in Atlanta first three months in office, I eliminated cash well born in our city. We working to turn our jail into a centre of equity.
We are of the close our doors to ice cover nineteen hit,
started delivering meals, Sarah seniors and our kids.
Giving their meal, so I think that gives you instant credibility, but it also gives you grace to plan long term for this work that we know then happen overnight. It's a series of actions and policy decisions on that in the change in America, but I've. I think you gotta, have a combination of both and I think you gotta be able to establish credibility with young people across Amerika, because across America, hopeless right now and the thinking about my grandparents who came to to ah my grandmother's. Grandparents were slaves and Crawford's. Will Georgia, and I have heard that my grandmother's grandfather servant Congress storing reconstruction
I'm off its true or not? This is a free slave. I've I've seen his worth listed on a registry. There was something that gave him home, maybe even when he was enslaved in the cotton fields of EAST Georgia, and there was something it gave. Him hope that something could be better if not for him than for his children's children, and I think that's where we are in America, we ve gotta be able to give our kids and act.
Here is how it is even with my my eighty in Europe, with all the trappings come along with being the mayor son, I'm sent me the video of the kids, a college kids may and pulled out of the car of the week.
And he said this is: why were burning down our cities? This is what were mad about so and what would it? What did you tell him when he said that I set out
stand. On the one hand, I've learned as appear in alarm, on learning more and more every day. Sometimes, issues is an opportunity for me to acknowledge savings. Harding arm sometimes
I have to say I understand, and- and I do and when I see that
and growing frustration in my son, because the reality as when he walks out the door, then never the he's. My son he's he's still
recall him, my man,
and how, in America.
And he hasn't bigger target on him as anybody else's child you
you guys they set over the weekend. The Donald Trump should just start talking because he makes things worse. I agree last question: what what would you want to hear from a real president right now? What do you think the country needs to hear to heal into sort of get
through this moment. What I want to hear is that
We have a president who believe
we're better than this?
and I want to hear from our president-
A genuine care and concern and commitment to make change in our communities
I want to hear an acknowledgement that we're hurting and that this didn't this
then start yesterday. It and start a war.
We also agree with the killing of George Floyd. This is
four hundred years of her in pain and the knee
for reconciliation and reformation in this country,
it's about wanna hear from our president
here President say.
I may not have all the answers
It may not all workers
for us today
but I believe there is a better tomorrow.
And I'm gonna do everything I can as president to me,
sure that's that
tomorrow is, is what all of us
They deserve and, as you know, a sucker for a good quote on one of my favorite.
This is from a point for my Angelo and she said then she says I am the hope of the slain and I think there
Hasn't me a president who says to communities of color, especially in this country
you come from a legacy of hurt in paying, but there was hope that your forefathers had for you and, as president, I had that same hope for
new and I'm gonna, make sure that America stands up to its commitments.
That we are better than where we are today. I hope we hear words like that soon myself. Thank you mare, so much for your powerful words. Thank you for your leadership and em
Hopefully you can come back to pod, save America under different circumstances in the future, and we can now we can gossip about politics any time. Thank you so much for her
bring me begs to mere bottoms and thanks to the re for joining us today- and we will talk you guys later this week.
Pod. Save America is a product of cricket media, the exact
producer is Michael Martinez, our system,
user? Is Jordan Waller its?
in edited by Andrew Chadwick, Kyle Segment is our sound engineer thanks to turn you so many Katy Long, roman puppet Dimitrios, Caroline resting Annalisa Gutierrez for production support into
digital team, Elijah Cone, Normal Conan yell freed in my look him, who film and upload these episodes as videos every week.
Transcript generated on 2020-06-03.