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“Racist Hall of Fame.”


The President tells four Democratic Congresswomen of color to go back to the countries where they came from, House Democrats continue their intraparty feud, and Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders debate their health care plans. Then Politico’s Tim Alberta talks to Jon F. about his new book on how Donald Trump took over the Republican Party.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
The present exports are pod. Save America, zip recruiter, find a great candidates to hire, can be like well, trying to find a needle in a haystack. The well John was kind of its written, but it's kind of you're. Thinking of what the answer, your thinking of that very analogy in a moment, that's how I said: Sure you can post your job to some job board, but then all you can do is hope. The right person comes along. That's why you should try zip recruiter for free, zip, recruiter, dot com, slash crooked! I don't like it when in writing a written piece it has commented goes. It was not good, it's not like a causes and we factor. Don't write, Ella Mayo when you're taxing me an old man. Eater, I'm sorry, that's like a no! No, no! I don't know is about your joke, is funny I'll, let you know how or on tax
I thought that was funny. John ha ha ha ha ha Senor self confidence in you. Just don't know what policy outcomes I've seen you type our has before loop We find that we want to see precluding. Doesn't right. Now we went to pander to finish the fucking. Add zipper curtain. Doesn't care needs finding he'll find them for you, Ella, Mayo, John, it's You know our really funny when I type ha they start narrowing down. I take another one. There is John Pharaoh, ha ha. John Vera ha ha ha ha ha it's a lot of its parts, Tommy be door? Ha that add an extra it. If you want to get to the politics here anyway, it's powerful technology and of other people, the right experience and actively invite them to apply to your job. So, while other companies might deliver a lot of hay supercool
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I welcome the pod, save America, I'm John forever. I'm John love it and later in the parliament conversation with what a ghost him Alberta, whose new book about the Republican Party in the Trump era, the President Elect shouted former house, speaker, Paul, Ryan, so sort of Whose side are you on air? I mean it was the only good news of the effective urging lash, Paul Ryan one last time is, is it was a tree? There was a dream, alien versus printer, whoever wins here with us but first we can talk about a lot of news from Donald Trump. Racist attack on a group of democratic congresswoman latest episode of gems in disarray
to some of the new developments in the democratic primary from the Biden. Sanders campaigns a new ever leave. It dropped on Saturday. We had a great episode. I harangue actual seismologists about my problems with the Richter scale. The logarithmic scale for measuring earthquakes, plus just a fantastic Andy Richter, Leary Cheney book any Richter on the Richter scale episode my desire, it was, it was happen, stand, and we did ask Andy about that and he said that every joke is new to him Irish stopped by Aaron Ryan is great opposite. Also. Viewed in cash, for that we can started. We recorded a special bonus pod last week with World CUP champion Megan repay know who loved called the Babe Ruth of telling Donald Trump to go fuck himself, accurate, accurate and finally we are on toward this week. We will be in Denver on Wednesday and SALT Lake City on Thursday, with our friend, Aaron Ryan. Grab your tickets, a cricket, dotcom, slash events and come see us if not you'll, hear the Denver
is our Thursday part in SALT Lake City. Show is a Friday, Bonaparte area. Let's get to the news just me: Think Donald Trump has run out of loans to hit. He finds it along with birth tourism Charlottesville and should all countries the president has given us a new entry in his Racist Hall of Fame, a tweet where he told me Then it is exactly because your quarters receded to leave ill Han Omar, and I am personally to quote: go back and help fix the totally broken in crime infested countries from they came in one or more has been an american citizen since she was a teenager and of course, the other three women of color, born and raised here in the United States. But a day later, Trump has doubled, tripled quadruple down on this on these racist tweets, I believe we have a clip of him.
Bonding tour reporters question about it. Just this morning doesn't concern to many people saw that fleet is raises an that white nationalist groups or finding common cause with you. On that point, I can show me because many people agree with me and all I'm saying they want to leave that you leave now it does so Leif wherever it just leave. If you went well, that's a bet about sums up the Trump presidency does it. I am not concerned because many people agree with me guys. I realize this isn't at all surprising. Coming from Donald Trump, he has been user race before he ran for office. He was raised stirring the twenty sixteen campaign and he's been raised since he's been president, and we know that because he continues to say and do racist things, but where do you rank this statement in terms of how ugly and dangerous it is it's a hard won? Then it's up there it's up there when you dimension,
was what he had said about Judge Curio, which was the idea that someone who is of mexican descent can't judging unfairly confined o a single phrase, but that, but that's it. But it's all right! I've heard about this to you know it is in shocking, but it does still. It is still when I saw it come across the yard. The yacht twitter transom, I was omitted. Mitted had the sort of like pre discussed, not just with what he had said, but with what I knew would come right that the correct description of it by Democrats and pundits the hand wringing that Republicans won't speak out. The eventual arrival of the half ass bullshit statements that we ve seen today. It's like we ve done this before, but just because someone's punch in the stomach before and says, I'm a punch in the stomach again
Does it mean that when you get the punch, doesn't that fuckin suck yeah, I mean he's just thoroughly disgrace the office again, you know it it's it's hard to talk about, as he is completely disgrace himself and the office of the presidency and all those around him so many times, but like he's a walking Willie Horton at me, like the guy, is Rachel grievance personified and, of course, none of us should be surprised. The Atlantic Data peace, where they went back like for decades, chronicling all the races things he did in business and ended in politics, you can forget the Fun birther Controversy Rice Park to this movement that was fully enabled by all the media that is now clutching their pearls and upset at the current iteration of his racism. So yeah, I'm fucking, furious and outraged and, of course, right. This started view the sauce I've been on Fox and friends who went on to then talked about his tweets and said he was feeling a little comedic. Today,
for then scolding, the members of Congress, that he attacked I and telling them that their words matter and the need to take what they put some social media more seriously. So we're in the dumbest continual loop we could possibly finery yet and The immediate trigger was that foxen friends segment, but even last week I think he probably took this from tougher I'll, send, did higher segment on eleven Omar and how she should go back to her her country, and you know he has as his white nationalist our mean. Partly that's why I would make a case that this may be the worst
the statement you made and it certainly the most explicit, I think we're going to go back to your country. If you don't agree said only two people of color is one of the oldest racist tropes in this country. There's plenty of people of color who ve heard similar sentiments as comments made to them, and I think it also ties together with very closely more closely than almost anything else. He said with a white nationalist worldview, Witches America is a white com and if you are not, why, then you are here as a privilege, your guest here, your guest here, and you should re criticise it. You should be grateful and if not, you should go back to your to your love and let me know love, it is right. I think this is the most explicitly racist thing. He said, since the Judge Curio common
which you all Ryan noted coward at that time, that it was the textbook definition of a racist common he's telling these women that, because of their skin color, regardless of the fact that air borne this country that they should go back to some presumed country of origin, is blatant. It's also it's the most on american thing is said, I would say right it go back to where you came from, because you're, not white, and therefore Europe, lack of whiteness means you'll, never be fully a citizen that you can actually be american. Never you can never be as fully american. Is me like that's his unamerican as it gets its deep unpatriotic, you don't want to get into the verses had about this kind of thing, because it's like I found myself like I've. I've always of typing
yesterday was a day of trying to not type out tweets and trying to type out tweets than deleting tweets, because I was like angry and I wanted to say something I found myself just typing and then deleting like Donald Trump hates America idea, and I was like- why am I gonna put that into the world's obviously true right, his seething hatred for anyone who is not white and not for him. His view that you can't really ever fully be a citizen. If you aren't white, no matter how long will you came whether you, where are you became a citizen by achieving it or by being born? It is an expression of a hatred of this country, but, of course, even saying that you feel like you're, adding to this endless endless argument in which everyone, just and all day making something simple, complicated because there's nothing else to say it's an incredibly raises on american comment. It should be denounced unequivocally people whether you're born here already became a citizen.
Citizenship is full and irrevocable, and everything else is such a. What also goes to show that this is not possible to say. Oh, this is about illegal immigration. It's not about it, It's about immigration, writ Large Gore, aided if not in that immigration is about raise its we're rich, but I think it is an equally important about this comment. Is you can have racist comments over here and you can have debates legitimate debates about immigration, who gets to be a citizen who doesn't who gets deported, who doesn't over here, but these are fuse together under this presidency, and so you have to see these comments and hear these comments through the prism of the ice raids that have been carried out over the weekend. What's going on at the border, you know they just announced a rule today that will effectively they'll try to basically end all us
protections altogether. It seems very illegal and will be challenging court immediately, but that is their their goal there, my all and not offering a fucking walking by a group of men behind a fence refusing to engage with them. Treating this like a zoo right. They don't they dont there there there their goal is not to try to reduce illegal immigration. Their goal is not to deal with the influx of asylum seekers. Their goal is to have no asylum to have less legal immigration to you know to get rid of deport the eleven million people who were here who lived here for decades. That is their ultimate goal. They want a white country- and that is- I never thought I would be saying that is something that is not an exaggeration of another party, but that is exactly what we are trying to do is completed its explicit, its explicit and the other. The other that they're doing in their efforts to clean up after this racist comment is inserting Israel into the middle of it? I can't, which is completely first of all normal talking about Israel in this current
there pointing at something that offended and the Olano more said months and months ago. But this pick up any one who actually believes that the Eu S should continue its support for Israel or once more, for it will be by partisan, because Trump is taking support for Israel. And throwing it using it as a human shield. In the midst of a controversy about a racist, Comet he's harming the ability for U S, support for Israel to be by partisan issue by it, I came here and it will shithead friends like Lindy, Graham, are doing it too in there. Just as that, what's it's on the president's that a group of members of Congress should go back to their country. Everything else is small nothing else. Everything else is, I don't even want to. I don't even want to gauge the what about us at this time, because it is so like. No, you don't know you don't talk, but is really don't talk about the policies you disagree with you. Got any that it that ITALY, Malta, Merit Arafat is a work of wearing their country. They were wearing their wearing short skirts. They must have been fucking asking for it like that's that's how it comes up. That's how it that's what that's what
they're saying and if you and of european politician- and you can't just straight up condemned this- condemn the comments themselves without doing your fucking equivalency even though I disagree with these four women on things, even though they ve made, even though all this bullshit, even though, even though no even though just it was wrong, the answer you, Wrong and racist, then the only acceptable answer and zero have done yet to have called it so called raising public and congressmen, who called the risk to me in Collins, are out there being like wall. I strongly disagree with their politics these sir, beyond the pale, don't seem to their level. What do you make of the republican risks? or lack thereof in the context of how that has changed over time. Right, like Tommy, you mentioned that Paul Ryan. During the judge, Curio controversy said this is a textbook definition of a racist comment.
We know Kevin Mccarthy's, the leader of the house. Now you don't hear anything emanated from common Mccarthy, nothing from which Mcconnell. Why he's gotten? Actually worse from Republicans, even as his are proliferating, has stayed the lowest of almost any modern present. Because Trump is Kano from mortal combat. He punched do their chest and ripped out their spine, all the other ones any any killed. All the others right, like Sandford any member of Congress. Whoever stood up to him is gone now they were not reelected pine, they are scared to death of a primary, and that's the only thing they care about. Paul Ryan denounced what Trump set about Judge Curio back when he thought Donald Trump we're going to lose the out, so he was hidden I think there is any costume he was gonna say what he thought was true, even if it even shithole countries. I think there were a little bit more forward. You know, I do think over time. It has, and I think this is why its useful to you know, I think the first reactions will trams always wears as we shouldn't be surprised, and that is true, but I think we are becoming
who had a lot of talk about this. We first one like oh dont, normalized Troke. Don't don't normalized trump been normalized re like bit by bit. He is chipping away at what our standards of outrage, They were, I think, stronger around shuttle countries, except for Tom Cotton, who basically concocted a lie to try to sell that it was about something as I'd want to correct myself. Subs you're out had the spine, ripping it. How can I say I don't either hard out? Yes, that's my bad to all the more that stands out there when I was of which I am one I will convey that finnish me ass. I will say however, I never was a master of the fatality moves and actually Donald Trump not isn't either he does do an opera cut over the pet. That is his move. He doesn't people falling into the pet further challenges. The feedback loop is closed for Trump. He will he hears about these members of Congress from Tucker Karlsson. He sees a
and friends episode that spins him up. They go on to defend him in the Republicans now they're like that closed loop will never be broken. That, though the racist circle will remain unbroken. Now you see people like Brit Hume. Who everyone in Washington pretended serious reporter out their defending the comment in denying that it was racist right like there's. No there's no way for us to inject rationality into the closed loop of awful that he has created with his body. The fox is declaring its not raises. I immediately its textbook. It like Brit, basically saying nothing can be. You know, racism is awful, but nothing. They re says that sort of the british philosophy yeah miserly, have them like racism is only specific racial slurs and slavery. I guess that's, the only of is the only way you can be raised at reminded me of the outer ever met. I always think about it. When people, I presume, say that something obviously raises races, which is the the Chris Rock I'm like what he had to do to be races due to shoot Maghreb
like that. What we're down here that, yes, those that's where the need, on the one hand, he's in it On the other hand, Britain works for the unity of the greatest producer, racism information. So you know maybe he s neck, for that is what that is an important point to like that, though, the pipeline from Tucker Karlsson directly to the present United States, terror, Karlsson, who has been from a white nationals, was embraced. This world view Lord Ingram too, I mean the prime time. Our a fox is maybe the most poisonous force in this country, not only for what it's doing to the people who are viewing it, but what but the pipeline it has to be pressing I'd, say it's the most powerful person in the country, and so you know we go back to these fucking and you know we ve had this debate before But the Democrats choosing to go on fox or go on to do the Fox Town Hall like on a day like today. It certainly seems like with war and had the right idea. You're angry a lot other days is up
their anything that is there any way. Democrats can do speak democrats beyond statements of disgust, and you know Oliver tweets, which I know just a couple tweets away from. From going to give. It has got a couple, a couple, a couple, a headlines in the New York Times using the word racist away from just ending at all. Yes, listen. Obviously I am no fan of ponderous New York Times. Writing that avoids describing things as they are. They are. I do not hearings way. Ninety inherent twenty nineteen. I do not believe it is the source of our ills, but yeah, maybe not. I would look to Democrats in the Congress to not just let this one go by right. I saw some people talking about censure. I think that that's so the general direction to go so policy is working on a resolution. So you know what what do you guys but this can be a resolution of disapproval which is less than censure and obviously less than impeachment.
Something I want to be. I do something and before I don't really care about this or censure because, whatever you know like I'll be I'd like to get to this later, but I have now become fully radicalized for impeachment and I am happy to Graham you get all four of us now so like sensor then seems like a half move to me. You're like do something and make all the monsters on the right to vote against this and like let let's, let's try to create a political cost. Let's get caught, trying to make it hard for public, be racist and twenty nineteen, openly right. I totally agree that I'd be for censured because in the eyes of the press, because it has been used in frequently in the past it'll be seen as a bigger deal, but you're Tommy, like censure resolution, you know a resolution of disapproval whatever it may be, it's not going to have a substantive effect, but we are in we are at a moment now words just do something use the power you have
do something, and I think that is I'm worried about you tight with us, but that seems to be where so many these problems in debates are stemming from is I don't think it's fair to criticise people for not using power that they dont have. I think it is imperative that we criticise people for not used power that they do have re and right now the democratic Democrats have limited power. They can do you know, censure can do disapproval. They can do impeachment, they can do hearing subpoenas. They should do it because we are and we are in a national emergency gamble and you know look if when we discover what it is to overreach, you know I'll, let you know you know when we come across. What are not there yet went, went when we see some overreaching when that day. Finally comes that tiered there, terrifying day would Democrats have over reached
when the boy the noble will it will hit alarm, but when the president is telling american citizens and elected members of Congress to go back to their home countries, people of color, then yeah. I think I don't think I think were in danger of of overreaching in the response to that. Coming just one small point about the two and its again another one of those things were in your typing treason deleting them, but I saw a lot of people say so trumps had go back to where you come from. You know to these four people, three of whom were born in America and they kept, in one of the news is like. First of all, you know this member was born in Detroit. In this matter I or in New York and end. It does see two trumps line of thinking. Citizenship is citizenship, its full and total an equal, no matter if you were born here or not, it's a bedrock principle of this country that that citizenship affords you certain protections and once you have, it can't be taken away, and once you earn it, it is the same as anyone else's, and I just can't stand the idea of gold
to reconfirm but she's from the Bronx it it doesn't matter, doesn't matter that electoral more wasn't born here doesn't matter at all. It's not what Trump cares about an hour you care about that? It sort of it reminds me of you, know: Brok Obama's a Muslim, and there is no he's, not a Muslim he's. Not a Muslim is like an you know, famously Colin Powell, when I meet the present said, the real question is so what? If he wants? Yeah right what if he isn't as the real answer, I wish you'd given this fuck you what if he is right, I mean- and you know there's a really good argument. We made that ill Omar, who is talked about how much she loved this country. Over and over and over again, is probably more grateful for the United States than most of us, who did nothing to earn our citizenship, but just get born at the time to the right person. She came here when she was a teenager as a refugee and had to work hard to. You know, take a citizenship.
She took an oath. Did all this work, each member of Fucking Congress RE worked her way up from being a refugee to representing her fellow citizens in Congress. She isn't. She is the rapporteur. Temptation of patriotism and what is supposed to mean to be an American and, of course, Donald Trump doesn't get that because he hates this country and anyone who doesn't love him because he has never worked Orkut. Between a young man you're just gonna yell for another? Twenty minutes, I'd like to see any trumps, kids last four years in a refugee camp in Kenya and then and then be successful if she has been so in trumps, races tirade. He also makes reference at the end by saying I'm sure Nancy policy would be happy to reign
The travel back to the fictional home countries, that's a jerk allowing a gigantic generating a joke in their so willing comedic this morning who votes in France, and that was a reference to what had until that point been the biggest political story of the weekend, which is the continuing Inter Party feud between US democratic leaders like Nancy Policy and for democratic congresswoman, who trump attacked. Last week. There were stories about our members of the congressional black caucus, we're getting tired of primary threats from the Justice Democrats, a group that was instrumental in getting a Yossi elected last year and on Friday night, the twitter account for House Democrats Quote tweeted a weeks old tweet from Elysees Chief of staff, justice democratic that if director showing caught Trucker party, where he criticised a representative, surest David's one of the first to native american women to serve in Congress for supporting the border bill in reply to another tweet, here's, the quote, I dont believe Sharif is a racist person but her
Boats are showing her to enable a racist system. The House Democrats, Twitter account, responded with the following statement that was also retweeted by policies. Deputy chief staff quote. Who is this guy, and why is he explicitly singling out a native american women of color? Keep her name out of your mouth short cuts that he considers Congresswoman David's a friend encourage her to run and was merely responding to another tweet. That mentioned her, that just explaining that fight made me feel crazy. What is this continuing fight between policy and the squad really What's the what's the source of the conflict? Here I mean, I think, there's been a long running feud between policy now see that has started when she didn't want to be part of a climate committee. The plus put together Everything was magnified enormously when a bunch of Democrats voted in favour of a border bill that those four members you mentioned earlier oppose for very little.
Reasons, and then you know, there's been multiple more in doubt and now that have taken a gigantic fan. And and and fan the flames of this fucking. You know back and forth between them, which got us to hear, I think than others. There's a whole broiling debate now about who is at fault, and I mean I feel hearing you describe that gets my frustration upon. Side, but I land unfeeling, like policy in leadership, needs to do a better job here, because I think we often give her a pass, because we know that part of our strategy is to defend moderate members and keep the majority and take hits for people that have tougher reelections and I think by any measure, that strategy is failing completely re luxurious David's who was mentioned here is a rap from Kansas. She is not helped by being a part of this controversy. She didn't treat her name, but she also didn't cook treated from the house. Democrats account like she isn't.
That to happen. That has democratically was re, the it is absurd and in so like the challenge structurally is going to be that policies team wants unity among the Caucasus. Everyone to come together and a phone line, and for air sea and people like IONA Presley. They know that policy and her team, never one them to be there in the first place, because they ran primary campaigns against Show Crowley or my cup olano people that the leadership would have preferred to stay in place. So I think that, like what should have happened when that morning doubt peace was printed is whether or not you agree that she was singling out for women of color policy should have read that concern from lots of people online or Elsie herself in culture and here's what I meant and I'm so sorry, if you took it that other way take her belief literally, take it sincerely in other. She felt sick
not in this matter because, like these are women who were singled out constantly by the present United States and if I had felt like there are legitimate threats to their lives, have been increased because of attention on line and nasty tweets and other shit in like be a little bit more cognisant of the year. I think that policy should her. I mean you know I do it over the weekend. I think they should that's crazy to have these arguments on twitter like us these and in short, So this himself is like I'm not interested in response to the has Democrats treated like I'm, not interested in substance lists twitter debates, of which this was one. I think there are plenty of legitimate fights to have as a party legitimate criticisms of Nancy Policy, legitimate criticisms of the squad and they should be had in public right, but this, Lord of Shit, when you get down to that, has Democrats tree and this and how we're all time others. Now this is useless and I do think that, when people should get in a room together and work this out, and I think police
He should be the one who takes the lead on this she's, the leaders in leadership. She should invite them to her office and have a conversation and stop this bullshit, and you know the smart point that policy made in the Kok as last week was. If you have a problem, don't you know criticized peoples in motivations and attack. People personally on Twitter come see me and then the House Democrats do that wishes. You know run by the clean Jeffreys, but and then he'd they go and do that they started Twitter fight, which is just it's wrong. You don't do that. Like I mean it's unproductive its unproductive it also. You no brain boiler said this that a lot of this feels like referred pain. You know the squad right. They are members of Congress, but they also represents. I think, a lot of people who feel frustrated by inaction and a sense of stasis that they see.
On the part of Democrats, including Nancy Policy and the others that they view as the establishment. So on top of that- and I think it's not just about the controversy over a climate change committing whether has subpoena it's not just about a border billets about. I think, a deeper challenge inside of the Democratic Party and in O Brien Boiler said this on Twitter. They refer to it as a kind of referred pain for the fact that there hasn't been impeded, because there's a sense not just amongst voters but among some members of Congress, including this new our generation that was voted. And by a kind of more diverse, more feisty democratic base that they are not getting. What they had hoped for out of House Democrats do not getting enough fight than getting impeachment they're, not getting the kind of hustle and intensity that they were looking for, and so I think there is a sense that were kind of pushing up against the bounds of what Democrats are willing to do in Congress, and until we see, I think, greater action on the part
the leadership, these kinds of things will happen, I think again and again yeah. I do think that the debate over the border bill is very instructive and sort of where a lot of the stems from though I think the ultimate sources, the anger over the lack of movement on impeachment, on that word about. When you know, we've talked about this before. I think that Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer and the Senate Democrats and a lot of the House Democrats simply did not even try to fight hard enough to include more protections in that bill. They didn't and they should have, and they should be criticized for that. That said, once you get the final border bill. It's either yes or no, and if they had voted down that border bill and not provided the funding that Trump ass for they wouldn't have shut down a single detention facility. The government would not have stopped What they're doing, in fact, they just would have been more overcrowded. They were doing the same thing, so it was. Both votes were pretty shitty, but
to that. You know, as agencies chiefest acted to accuse the Junta. Democrats who voted for this border bill enabling a racist system is not fair. It's just not fair and like there's a lot of Democrats who voted for this bill. Especially in that's why she's David's got brought up the footnote, one of the first to native Americans in Congress. She voted for it. Lauren Underwood, the youngest black woman in Congress voted. Were Antonio Delgado, voted for Katy Porter, very liberal voted for it, like you can't just you can't just take it, huge shot at people and say there enabling a racist system like that, because it also obscures the truth about the bill, which, as it was, a shitty your bill Pelosi. Consumers should have fought harder, but it did provide some
small measure of relief and the only way to really end the detention of these people of these children. The only reason to the only way to close down these detention facilities is to get trump out of office. That is the only way I think I think you're right that those members, including a bunch of brand new, really progressive, really great members, were handed a horrifically shitty political situation. I do think that the public conversation about the crisis at the border and family separation in particular, has not fully understood the depth of the problem. A great family separation sounds like a temporary thing where a kid is away from apparent, and then it gets result when, in fact, the American Academy Pediatric says no shout no child should be placed in detention he's. Even short periods of detention can cause psychological trauma and long term mental health risk. I am concerned, I think, a lot of activists who I heard from after I thought you weren't Linford are concerned that we are doing irreparable. Permanent damage to children
along the border we are, and none of us should be surprised- that these members of Congress didn't criticise Donald Trump for being a racist, because when my pen went in, saw four hundred men cages without cuts to lie down on without a single pillow with like fuckin tinfoil blankets. Synergy De Gram Centre, MIKE Lee and John Corn inward there with them, and none of them said a goddamn, were they experience it? They smelled the smell that the poorer porter called overwhelming They knew it was like ninety degrees in the room. They didn't say God, damn thing they don't care about. These people, it is a humanitarian crisis, is a travesty. It is something that we are going to grapple with her country for decades that we have let this happen, that we are letting, as happened in our name right now. My point is the border bill is passed. And arguing about that vote over and over again right now is useless and if an end, every member guess who still upset about it. Every activists, every person who still upset about this should be like, ok, plus,
you negotiated a shitty bill. You fucked us what's next. What are we gonna do about this because this problem is solved and we need to do something else, and I think we have limit the options here. We just have to be honest about it. Only controlling the house, but I think the focus now should be on ok what what points of pressure can we put on policy humor and then Mcconnell in Trump now to get something done and it is to keep the fight moving forward. Sometimes I think when I got these twitter fights, it is always about looking backwards and young children just becomes complete. And productive, let's put pressure on them now to do something. Well, that's, I think that's the question that comes out of this right. Ok, you do want to fight here. You'd invite our enough here. Where's the fight was where's or you get when Peter and that, but that's what I mean, that's where you get to impeachment regulates lifecycle, because I do think it's it's you know. Afterward like didn't fight here, we're here we're going to organise fight on trumps, racist
We are in a fight where, at some point you have to choose where you're gonna have the battle, while in the choice but the choices in some ways made for you. There is one tool that the House Democrats have besides passing fucking, useless message, bills and resolutions of disapproval, and that is the two impeachment and it is warranted and if they do not use it, the main are not using the the only power that they have, and so I think, like you, started by saying Tommy like so much. This frustration is about the fact that we have a lawless president who has committed crimes and is racist and has a embraced a white nationalist worldview in the White House, and we have the opportunity to at least go on record and have impeachment hearings that may may influence the political calculus enough that it can help get him out of office and twenty twenty. So that members will you just want to get to pigeon. Once I get back, I think another thing we're seeing AOC in the Justice Democrats were talking about primary in which candidates, including CBC numbers, which is why, when you pick up the newspaper you see back
What's from leadership, it thinks she's only woman color when it's convenient, none of the thing she's phosphor, lined with committees of color in a group, is funded by leaders, wait, liberal she's a puppet that that is running scenes, growth, sensitive disgraceful thing to say so, like I get Adobe I've our eye, what you're fucking name I get whether that blood is why we want, but your name is so so valuable thing to say on the left, but like again, readership said that right. So that's why I think the onus is on policy and her team to fix this in getting the game. You are now back to impeachment like for a while I've. I've constantly said that I, if I remember Congress and someone said you should be for Impeachment- cause Europe that put you on the right side of history. Tell your kids like we're used in this moment. That would convince me, I think I hope, but I've word about that, ethics. I'm now pretty firmly convinced of the politics of not impeaching are way worse, because it is resulting in the shit, because we have looked more feckless in our oversight capacity than I ever thought.
Possible and I am not entirely sure how we got here or who to blame, but it is a problem and it is good. It is going to check our ability to provide oversight of things down from his doing stop where we can and is also going to make Democrats who were rallying and marching two years ago. Depressed is help wondering why, and I want to look. It may be satisfying to lay this all at the feet of Nancy policy. But, It is not necessarily a just say I don't. I don't blame transposing house leadership. Aid could be any one of a number of individuals and a number of other ones. I am saying it may be satisfying to lay the failure to impeach at the feet of Nancy Policy, and I think she does bear the responsibility for it, because I think if Nancy Policy wanted to try to whip votes in favour impeachment, she would be able to make some headway A lot of these new members who we love and who we ve talked about. Are generally afraid of this because of their districts because the pulling in their districts- and I think the question is, how do we persuade and convince these members to come along, because, if the
Are there Nancy plus he's not gonna, stand in the way, but she's clearly not whipping in favour of it, and so I think sometimes there's you know as much as we can criticise blowsy, there's too, our focus on her and we don't realize that she is in fact protecting a lot of members and not just asshole blue dog conservatives, people that made the majority, that we all alike, and we all voted for of were very progressive, who are afraid right now and we have to make. Or that they are not afraid to persuade them to not be afraid of riot? Two things are true one. She is, she has said publicly privately. She wants to take fire for impeachment on behalf of members. You d want to do it, while at the same time, she's not doing enough to make impeachment possible Khatami's went the policies. This is what changed my mind to the parties impeachment. There are unknown.
Politics of of almost maybe someday impeaching our garbutt there, where you live in through a now, has an ongoing I've been saying this. I feel like four months we are in this twilight, semi impeached, feckless oversight period. That seems to have absolutely no end in sight. No end in sight of you had said to him. You had said to people that this is what oversight would look like. If we win the house before the election, people would have been horrified. They would have been horrified that this is what they get. We we spent so much time talking. That's how important it was to get that gap. How important was to have subpoena power forty watts to do oversight. Is anyone listening believe that this is what we meant, that this is the level of oversight we were hoping we might get Bobby Mueller up there in a couple weeks. So you know for some reason. We're closed door hearings with various trumpet illustration, I dont know what the politics impeachment ultimately look like, but one of the cases I'd be making to some of these members who are? Maybe
more afraid of it is look at where right now, you think this is good. You like living in this permanent state of being asked, whether not your for impeachment. If you think impeachment is bad politics, we can do it. This fall and make the big case, and then you can campaign in whatever you want, but if we don't impeach soon, we're gonna be talking like this for a year and it is going to be glee and it's gonna be unhelpful and it's gonna be worse, that having done nothing- and I think you have set molten Conniston from Massachusetts- is running for president made a great case for impeachment over the weekend and you know molten said look. I think we should use the fact that the Republicans in the Senate are obviously going to exonerate him to our advantage. By saying we don't expect them to do the right thing, but before we go into the twenty twenty election, we want every member of the Senate to go on record. Do you support Donald Trump and is obstruction of justice in its crimes?
for we know that shit or vienna- and you know, I don't think we set for Arctic Susan Collins, inquiry gardener and some other ones want to take a vote on impeachment now, as mean that they will not vote to exonerate Trump, because I dont you know that they have that much courage, but they don't want take that vote They do not want to take over pods America's brought by figs. I think there's something all of us can agree on: nurses, doctors, dentists and people who work in medicine. Healthcare are pretty awesome, disagree and all of us, I can think of a time when a medical, professional helped us or a family member. You heard doktor death. These amazing people dedicate their lives to caring for and serving other slack Dalia follow the fucking money. Oh my god, shouldn't these these people were scrubbs that made them feel good. Yes, Figs is an amazing company that is making scrub, stylish and functional for the people who deserve more, like the d visa for four years: nurses, d,
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Dot com, sledge cricket- that see a l m. Dotcom slush crooked calmed outcome, flesh cricket, it's your painting- and you can make a mistake- less like what the democratic presidential primmer theirs? a report this week about how Joe Biden maybe entering a new phase of the race where more he more aggressively engages with the other Democrats in the field, especially on health care, where over the weekend, he said this about his opponents, who support Bernie Sanders Medicare for all bill quote. I oppose their public Party trying to get rid of obamacare- and I oppose Democrats who are dont, know why we get rid of what in fact is working and moved to something totally new Bernie, and very honest about it, he said you're going to have to raise taxes on the middle class and end all private insurance sanders responded by using Biden of making the same argument as insurance companies and Republicans who ignore the fact that what you
in higher taxes, you'll saving premiums, cope him to doctors and out of pocket payments, none of which will exist under Medicare for all. I wanna get to the healthcare debate itself, but First Biden has mostly ignored as opponents in lunches campaign with the promise not to speak ill of other Democrats. Why you think he's mixing it up now. What do you think the strategy, because he was winning issues where it was always working so well on one side and when strategy with is working, you change it right. I endorse that I clearly I mean, like everyone, always says that one thing when the campaign starts and then calmly Harris you now through a combo at that debate that knocked seven to ten points. Office his lead in someplace visiting our combating that right here exactly so here we are you don't know what you did, that rate and move you know by that this is the right strategy in it
and I think given rose garden strategy and a primary. I think its rights Reggie also think it is in a we just talked about substance list. Twitter spats. This is a completely you know legitimate, very important debate to have they're, both Joe Biden, Bernie Sanders and every other candidate argue about healthcare, and the future of our health care system is an important way to have. We should have no should be shying away from a just cause. You don't like talk about other candidates, it should be a fair debate, should be honest debate. It shouldn't get personal, but we need. Debate. I agree, and I agree with what Dan sat on the Thursday POD, that you don't wanna, make a healthcare debate about Obama's like see or being unable to Savannah sexy? I really hate that. I do think that Medicare for all versus public option is a very important substitute policy fight we should be having. I was at the grocery store yesterday pick up some milk. You know some yogurt, some things that need to listen to Dan Pfeiffer, talk to Senator Bennet. I know and
He to his credit. It is not doing particularly well and in the national poles, but he is making a compelling argument for the public option over. A Medicare for opposition and nothing. I come down on his side, but, like he at least, is talking about the downside. What am I mean, the general action, because, right now we had the Trump Administration aging, a lawsuit against Asia. That would just eradicated all the popular things for existing conditions. Everything would go away and beneficially making the case that it. Be a harder rejoinder for us to point that out. If Medicare for all takes away private health care from one hundred and eighty million, some people, which is something we should reckon with today. These we're gonna reckon with the down the road that have the conversation yeah, so Biden today came out with a plan that will expand the affordable carriage by making the subsidies more generous, adding a public option in making that public up
premium free for four point: nine million uninsured americans- mainly this- would be the people who live in states that did not choose to expand Medicaid these republican states. And so, if you live in the states and you would qualify for Medicaid, you could go into the public option premium free for other people. There would be no some small costs to buying into the public option, but it would be more affordable than a lot of an insurance, but private insurance plans
so that's guidance plan, and what what do we think of it? And what we think of this, that the debate with wood burning rethink? Well it so, I think, is an important debate. I do think that there is. I think that the healthcare debate we were having between the kind of Medicare for America Plan and thee Bernie Plan, I think, was a really good and important one. I think what binds introducing I think entry add some of the complexities that allow the critics of Obamacare point two, which is its you know its heart and the benefits are complicated. There diffuse it's hard to understand whose helping whose being help and whose being hurt it, makes the system more complicated. I think that's a legitimate critique of this kind of a direction, but Biden is making a case for
find of centre left politics, his practice, basically as whole life, and he sang he's woody saying, is there is a coalition of voters who actually want my kind of politics? You aren't part of this new new and louder more progressive wing of the party that there is a there is room for some one more to the centre and he's gonna stick his candidacy on that which I think is show some integrity, because it too is, I think it's a fair debate to have. I don't I agree with with you and in time to it I don't making this about Obama's legacy, if you're for the Biden plan your for Obama and if you're for the burning plan, your against Obama in part of these nets truce, because in twenty eighteen, when he was campaigning, Barack Obama said that Medicare falls a good idea. That's that's one reason why that that debates or too silly, but I do think getting into the details of the. Plans are important, you know like, but by a sort of right now at least rhetorically. It's a bit of a lazy argument that he's making, even though his policy, I don't think he's lazy at all as policies a real policy, but the Argo
as we don't want to start. We too want to trash Obama, care and start from scratch and have always people ways of that. It's if we from Obamacare to Medicare for all there'd be a four year transition under Bernice plan things I'll get trot like people's health care. I gotta get trashed in the meantime right like it's, gonna, be a transition Riddick, We want to go to nothing for you, don't gotta, nothing for us right, Medicare, pearls going to be incredibly difficult. To achieve. I think they're, both political and substantive issues around moving to a matter for all system, but you ve, gotta, make the case for what those obstacles are both on the political side on the substantive site. You know one thing that, as recline raises the day that I even thought of is you know if we have a single pair system and the government is the only place, that's providing insurance to people? What happens when There's another republican and the White House and Republicans running government and Republicans decide that the government insurance plan is not going to cover birth control that it's gonna do this or that
like you are by only having one single insurance system in the entire country. That also raises challenges. Just as are mixed system does right now: private insurers system does right now right now we are at the whims of private insurance companies and they arguably have way too much power. But the question is what happens when the government is the only provider of health insurance, and I think it's a legitimate debate to have, and I also think the financing is a very legitimate debate yeah, because Bernie sort of schemes ovaries like a well we're here, you're gonna, pay more taxes by. You can have any premiums, copious deductible, well, how much more in taxes and how much of my actually gonna save and is going happen all at once were suddenly I'm not gonna pay premiums but selling my taxes are gonna go up like what is the difference can actually calculate out to four average American and because he hasn't had a specific financing plan attached to his Medicare for all bill. We don't know that. I also do they theirs
their side to the argument around a what? If the government is in charge of the insurance system than one day, Republicans will be which, as we have seen what happens when we try to do something more moderate, which is that they cause socialism and try to destroy it anyway? Right? So I see the argument if both ways, which is they're. Gonna drive us right, no matter what right and it's like. Well, we have a bigger problem here with what do you do with the Republican Party that just basically like a rearguard action against any change or maternity at all the healthcare they will not solve that young, but, like hate, moderators, the next debate, credulity, thirty minutes on these details right, we not skip around a silly stuff, like again. You said he was lying and you said this was absurd and use like yeah actually dig into the details because they are complicated, but the American people and an voters deserve an honest debate about and not another handrails on, some of the most
we created it is easy to see an end saying no Henry's girl do no hand. One word. No one word answers and no reasons of the raising of the hands, which has great good foreseen it. CNN will never misses an opportunity. Just gonna get him resume, see just a little bit of a just. A little bit of lung evil now add on for hours There is another New York Times story last week about Bernie shifting strategy. Now that he's either losing support, or at least stagnant and poles. I think you could argue that quote while Miss. War and is making incursions with some of Mr Sanders Progressive backers campaign AIDS insist that they view. Mr Biden is a far more significant threat because of his support from some of the working class voters who voted for Mr Centres and twenty sixteen does. This makes sense to you guys it's smart strategy on Bernie's behalf. I don't know- and it's hard to tell if that's an honest political assessment or a little sleight of hand that you tell the press will head fake. I mean you got to be concern
Bout, Elizabeth Warren, dropping nineteen million dollars and fund raising in getting a pretty big boost in the polls and have an amazing infrastructure built, and I would like both thing- should worry you, I think it's. I think it's a super tough position for Bernie to be in because, and then after that story he was ass this weekend. Why should you be President Noddles with warring and he said. Elizabeth warrant is a good friend of mine and all, I can say is the following: what people understand that for decades now there have been great speeches, great legislation and great play and what we need is a mass movement of millions of people, which I am prepared to lead Us President, so that is the agreement that is as close as he's gonna get, which what do you think about that argument? I think it would have been very, very kindly earlier this month have by now that was actually pretty fair. You know critical attack on his healthcare plan. I think that is what he believes. He does not want to criticise Elizabeth worn on the merits, and I was
the Gulf between Bernie Sanders and his and some of his staff and supporters. Is why, Why why why? Why do I like very wide, are yawning chasm will agree being more, but no, but that's the that's. That's true articulation of their difference right. That Bernie, believes you need a political revolution. Whatever that may be in their lives with worn, has, I think, had a more substantive critique of power structures right that sort of Bin the difference. I think you know and that's what he's describing there. It's interesting right. It's something we talk about a lot, but that idea, Ology just isn't a salient to a lot of people, are less aiming to a lot of people than we realise that, for so many Biden, supporters Bernice their second choice. For so many Bernie supporters binds their second choice, because these are, I think, us new. I think it's fair to say that Bernie is the furthest left. Mainstream candidate Biden. Has the furthest right candidate front runner,
and yet you have all these people that look at these two people, and so I want one of these two now I think you can make an argument that there's some lingering massage any and other factors that go into what people view as electable there, but even beyond that, there is a kind of a kind of confusion in that there are people who want both big systemic change and are also worried about big systemic change that led them to kind of the comfort of Biden and the change and promise of revolution a burning, and, I think, a lot of utter just probably dont, really know much about the distinctions in there just name and a couple people they now I mean that is such an important point that we always fear railways gloss over using a lot of frustration from team, Bernie, nay, as much as they started in a good position with
nay, mighty and money in a pretty decent appalling average to start like they feel like they're, they're, they're hurting because they are not new in the eyes of the media is he ran last time and because Elizabeth Warren Camel hair, as there are seen as news there there frustrated by that, they feel left out of headlines about polls that show them do incredible wealth greatly well, but the headline is the movement of some of the lesson. Candidates, and I get that frustration and I and I feel their pain in some ways, but in other ways I do think that meat being a argument constantly that is about grievance. An attack on the media is a very tough strategy for Democrats. These Republicans can do that and make an attack the New York Times and say, shitty and whatever, and then go on Fox and live in this right wing ecosystem
Democrats can do that. I also I mean I think, Bernie argument that it is going to take more than speeches plans and all the rest and bring about systemic change is going to require movement of millions of people. Is a hundred per cent correct, the top bar for him, as he says, well, I'm the one who should lead that movement or why? Why are you? The wench lay that Movement Nina Turner, who was one of his supporters in Congress, who is one of those people whose a bit more critical, outwardly of other Democrats even Bernie Sanders to say the least, but she made it was in points in it, which is you know her argument, as Will Bernie has been there for ever. He is the original and he was the one who had the courage to run in twenty sixteen when it was hard and he didn't look like you- have much of a shot against Hillary Clinton and he stood up and that's why you should be with him now I actually think that might be one of the better arguments that he can use
we'll get around to, but the other thing- and this gets to your points on the book complaint with the media in that story- that New York Times story about Bernie, you got Jeff Weaver, his Eunos closest strategist and they're being like this, isn't about making friends or sharing pictures of your dog recipes or bubble like no? No, no, that's what running for president is it's getting people to like you and vote for you I realise that I realize we wish that presidential elections were just about. Who has this policy? well since it but like we live in the real world and people need to like you to vote for you as President
You know it's a wonder with this hinders people, and I don't think I don't think this is my, but as much as Bernie, but some of the supporters like do they want people to join the movement or that it do. They just want to be right. Well, although I think part of those flows from Bernie himself, who is very comfortable making his argument and as I think, less comfortable with some of them, signage are aspects of campaigning, and you know it's not that you can call that his flaw or a flaw in the system, but I think also there's going to be set for someone like this is what I do is I want to campaign and if I can win this way great, if I can't, I won't see people around him trying to justify that but low, but even to that argument around you know he's been there and he goes to a central problem here,
he eluded warned in run against Hillary Clinton in two thousand sixteen, but there is no argument you can make that years. There's no way you can. You can faithfully make an argument. Elizabeth warrant hasn't been in. These five thousand are obviously law its Harlem. She was as ringing the bell on on bankruptcy before the financial,
crisis. You created a government agency created a consumer Financial Protection Bureau. She was tat to lead that bureau, but was seen as so toxic to Republicans because of how hard she would fight against banks incorporations that she wasn't allowed to have a position so that I think this is a central challenge for Bernie. There is not its not just Hillary Clinton. Now there is another person who is an avatar for a lot of these policies and for this movement, and it forces him to reckon with the weaknesses of his campaign and its candidacy, and they have as yet not been willing to do that and she and she does the politics and she put in the time, and he saw them as we get networks nation where she went and a lot of the activists there very liberal activists said well, yes, she's just be no over the years, he's riches, which is talk to us about she's she's, put in the time to build these relationships, which is sort of the unsexed work of politics, but very important when you are trying to win a primary. I also think that Bernie Sanders himself has been incredibly focused and disciplined.
Attacking a corrupt system can crop town of Washington and in the way, money washes through it and distorts things. His team is in always quite as precise as possible, to say the least, but a shrapnel through the law is a lot of shrapnel like attacking leg democrats as corporatist or saying you know, like really think, arrested. I really like pretty personal attacks that suggests that, if you don't like that care for all that, you don't want like poor people in the same healthcare system, is you things it. I kind of I read them, and, unlike do you really believe this, or is this an effective message? Bees you're right that, like look he's out there to make friends and that's fine- you mean, but this reality, shoves isn't like the road broth challenge right leg look at you you're there they find voters in in get their support in any way you can unlike overtime. I do think this stuff can chip away at people liking or are being assessed
choice can yet well. Elizabeth worn has been attacking or corrupt system, and she does it without like targeting in in a negative way a lot of the voters that she needs to help change that crops and her team is super discipline to like you, don't see them working. The rests nearly as much on on twitter about coverage is some of the other campaigns and its interests into because Bernie, especially for this campaign in a broaden fanciers campaign manager. In fact who had worked for area in the past, he you know he's of that world. That's Warren's world as well, where you build political relationship. You talked people, so you know I still think they're serve hope to have that sort of influence on Bernie that he's gotta play the game to win the game. The identity can still do it, but that's As a German, I also heard there was a moment and twenty sixteen. I think I think Bernie launches this longshot Canada see I dont know what he would have said under a lie: detector budded at the beginning, and certainly seem more as a way to push against some of the assertions that Democratic Party and
caught fire in a way that I think even his people didn't anticipate, which they think why that their tone of being so hostile kind of aggrieved can have lasted for so much longer than it should have. But there was a moment and twenty sixteen where he stopped wearing the button doubts colours for. Second, got a nicer sue. Combed his hair gave a fucking balls. You speak. There was a moment where you saw Bernie Sanders say, I'm want to say that I actually can do this that are not just here to be. A godfather are not just here to make an argument and arguments he won by the way on on on policy and on on politics. I'm I'm gonna try to be president and to me that tension is always there in how Bernie campaigns do you want to win when the argument or do you want to win the race right. I think people are rightly frustrated at some of the ways they felt like the deck was stacked against them within the Dnc in the debate schedules and other things that happen between sixteen. But it is also true that for a while, he was running through days a week and enormous Annie, Senate boats and measures, and it it that's. It untenable situation to be
and, if you're running, to win. Ok, when we return my interview with politicos TIM Alberta, Furthermore, brought to you by square space. Destiny is called It says you need a new website, make it with square space. Making yourself create a beautiful website to turn your cool it into a new website, Showcase, renew work, blogger, published content, sell products and services of all kinds or promote your first. Go or online business, and thanks as always to the beat poet who got hidden ahead with a sledgehammer before writing that portion of the ad. Somewhere. There is someone out there who did write this, what I want to know if there listen. I am a fan. Tweet at US squares Does this by giving you beautiful templates created by world class designers and the ability to customize, look and feel settings products in both just a few clicks everything optimized for mobile right out of the box, nothing the patter of great ever laughing at the people.
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Reality, you guys the listeners too. We are looking at a Google trend, search cash, apps kicking the shit out of the other the other at turning around it with one starting around twenty seventeen, what happened then happen there? What happened now you guys did what happened then the listeners? What happened that? What happened? Ned I ask and then, as you all know, we launch POD save America to make sure that the cap ash as regards in good succeed. That was the purpose you download the cash out. You enter the code pots, where Spencer is not real and you get v. Bucks in five bucks goes to moms demand action who are going to help us get some common sense gun control us and that's it. That's all. You got that catch up cash compassion on the plug. Today we have TIM Alberta, chief, political correspondent for political magazine and the author of the new book american carnage on the front lines of the Republican civil war and the rise of President Trump TIM thanks for joining hate
This is as good as it gets. I've done a lot of media this week, but nothing coolness thanks for having well you're so welcome. So a couple of months ago, Joe Biden kicked off a debate among Democrats when he said that history will treat this administrations. Time is an aberration and that the fever and the Republican Party will break once Trump is gone. Other people say the Trump is a symptom of a broader wrought within the GEO p. What did your reporting for this book? Tell you about this debate. You know it s a really founded a question, actually the heart of the book. You know we see all of this polarization and this unity in the country now, and I think it's fair for some people to sort of instinctive reflexively want to lay at all it trumps doorstep, and I do think that some mistake just to the extent that I think what Trump really did effectively was that he saw some of these things building
long before. Anybody else in the Republican Party did he. He saw this axed. He saw some of this. Native ism rearing its ugly head. He saw this discussed with the political class and a lot of people feeling left behind by politicians of all stripes and he really tapped into it and and The nice did unexploited it in a way that nobody else was able to, and I do think that look for all the attention on Trump and every day he gives us cause to to have. These are really exe essential conversations about you know where we are as a country and its culture and and in government. But I do think we we have to think beyond Trump, because he's gonna come and go, but it is a transient office. He won't be president forever, but I do think that these same forces that sort of propel him into office that this wave that he rode into office is still going to be here when he's gone, and I do understand what Joe Biden was trying to say with vice president was trying to say, which is that you know these. These Republicans in Washington have
got themselves a case of Stockholm Syndrome and in their so scared of this guy that that their unwilling to speak out and that has sort of tainted the parties all in and he has remade the party in his own image and this fell swoop and at once he's gone, no return to normal, but ass. We do. It's pretty naive, because I think that Trump has here since all of us, through the looking glass here- and I think the political system itself is now so vulnerable to disruption in your begin? see a little bit of it on the left, not to compare anybody on the democratic side to Trump but you're. Seeing some of that same asymmetrical warfare now, and so I think, there's a big big question for everybody. Well, after Trump is gone, which is how do we get a lid on this thing? How do we sort of bring some normalcy back to politics, and how do we restore some of the most basic conventions and institutions that made government stable,
well? It seems like the only way you're can do this on the right, which is where the xenophobia and and racism is at least the Trump has exploited, is if some republican politicians somewhere stand up I say that this is wrong and reject this, so you know we're right now, in the middle of a whole, bunch of Republicans pudding, sort of mealy mouthed statements on trumps, races, tweet, the weekend, I think I've counted now only to House Republicans have actually called them racist. What? Why is that? You think, because you know some people on the left wing hey. This is because a lot of Republicans actually agree with them, and then a lot of other people say will there just to chicken chicken shit to say anything. I mean in in your experience talking to all these republican politicians for the reporting in this book, what
Where does the resistance to stand up to Trump come from? You know if, if I had to break it down John, I would probably say that it's three quarters chicken shit and one quarter actually do agree with him and I will I'll tell you retracing some of the earlier stages of of birth tourism, which of course, you guys all lived through a new, remember vividly there were- and I have stories in the book about some of these members of Congress Republican, that house members who, behind closed doors, were constantly agitating about birth, tourism and and banner and canter would look around like who the hell are these people and then, of course you don't. They Has this great quote where he talks about more Congress, is nothing more than a slice of the american people, have some really really smart people in some really really dumb people. You have some really really nice people in some people who are nazis and so actually you're going to wind up with some sort of fringe. Conspiracy minded
oaks and then also means yet you're, gonna, probably wind up with some races in Congress, or at least some very racially insensitive people if I'd be very generous in Congress, but I don't think that's a mature I think the majority these folks are just terrified of Donald Trump they're scared. Their own shadows? Look. We all know that in politics, self preservation is the name of the game. It drives. Everything and when you are a member of the House Republican Conference or of the Senate Republican Caucus- and you see what happened to mark Sandford or Jeff Flake or even Bob Corker, who says step down on his own, but he was gonna have a hell of a hard time, keeping his job or just in a marsh who just left the party you, look around and you realize that no longer, is it the ideological divisions in the party determine where you are as republican, and that was of course you know that the Big Post, George W Bush debate are you part of the establishment, or are you part of the insurgency? Are you a conservative or a moderate? All of those divisions have really fallen by the way,
side John, were left with this very basic division of. Are you with Trump or you against Trump and if you're, not with trump you are taking your career in your own hands and you're running a very real risk of losing your livelihood in that's more than most of these folks are willing to gamble with. I guess the question is why his? Why is this reluctance to challenge him like gotten, actually worse overtime, even as he remains one of the most unpopular president's in modern history? Is it? Is it just a fear of tromp or are other political incentives and other factors come into play here? It's a good question. I will answer two ways I think. First, it's not just a fear of but it's a fear of trumps base. I think for most of these folks, and now you did see back in November of twenty eighteen, you did see some of the Republicans in Congress who were more critical of Donald Trump hoo hoo
keep the White House more at arm's length, and it's not coincidental, of course, that most of these Republicans were those who were coming from more suburban, held congressional seats with with more diverse populations, upscale college educated white collar and a lot of those folks understood that they weren't going to or lose based on whether trumps base was mobilized. Behind them they had to appeal to a broader slice of the electorate and ultimately lie those folks lost, and so what you are left with, at least in the house, which is always gonna, be a better case study of kind of where our politics are. You are left in hush, Publican conference Conference with an overwhelmingly disproportionate number of republican lawmakers who hail from these graphically homogeneous districts where, if you are on the wrong side of trumps base and your shit out of luck, you're probably going to lose your job. And so I think that that's a big part of it's, not just that they're afraid of Trump. That he's going to. You know
call them late at night and in which the matter or that you know he's gonna embarrassed empathy, oval office, but it's that if he turns on them publicly with a tweet poor, if he you know gives even the faintest with to his political operation of you know, I don't like this guy. We should. We should go knows or on the district and see if we can find somebody they are not willing to take that gamble. I also think the second part of your question, John, is Donald trumps. Approval rating writ large has not been very good throughout his presidency. Right is it. Is it typically range between thirty, eight and forty four, but what's interesting- and I talk a lot about this in the book- is that almost like clockwork with very few exceptions, his approval among self identified Republicans is right around ninety percent very consistently, and that's really really good, as men are fact at this point in his presidency.
Two years and change it, it was presidency. He is the most popular Republican with the republican base in the last century, safer George, W Bush in the aftermath of nine eleven. So even while he has alienated the broader electorate and certainly lost the support of moderates and independence, he is still really really strong. With self then ours and I think that's what makes it so difficult for GEO P politicians to seek and distance from him. How how much does the media environment on the right influence this, because you know, I believe, that's trump wouldn't be able to have this hold on his base without not only Fox but that most of the other conservative media environment, with few exceptions, I used to work for national review, but it seems like the national reviews. You know weekly standards got out of business, but some of those sort of establishment, conservative publications, dont really hurt of a big audience or a base on the right any more and that what's left, is sort of the fox suffocation of the entire conserved
media, and that is the engine that sort of keeps trumps base. Dared angry and loyal to tromp one hundred percent. You cannot possibly begin to overstate just how fundamental Fox NEWS has been to this administration and its not just with what they do in terms of defending the president, but its into we always talk in media about you know, it's not just the stories that you cover, but it's it's the stories that you dont cover, and that is so true when you look at fox you could begin to count the number of times over the last twenty eight months when there was some major defining moment that in any other administration, would be sort of a legacy crisis. Some you know, something's gone totally off the rails in the administration or Trump has said or done something that is just beyond the pie,
so far outside of the mainstream of the american presidency, that we would all be sort of shocked by it, and if you re the newspaper in future, on CNN or MSNBC. If you get on Facebook or Twitter, it's all anybody can talk about. But if you are I'm going to generalise here, because you have to demographically speaking, if you are a white conservative voter over the age of forty five odds. Are you are getting most of your information from Fox NEWS, and the simple fact is that on most of those nights, when all of us are paying attention to those big would be legacy defining stories. Fox news is not covering them and if they are covering them to the extent that they are it's mostly the left wing media over reaching and making a mountain out of a molehill, etc, etc. So you just you can't begin to appreciate how foundational important Fox news is. Air cover is too trumps presidency. If he lost them, he would
be done- I mean aid tomorrow and he knows that. That's. Why he's on the phone with Lord Ingram S wise on phone with Sean Hannity three four times a day. Sometimes I mean he understands that he has to keep these people behind him, or else his based disappears. So a lot already been made to the things Paul Ryan told you for this book, which certainly said the president off. We ve had a lot of fun here and pod. Save America taken on Paul Ryan, by my my view of Ryan, is that he has put up with trumps racism in instability because he wanted lower marginal rates and entitlement cuts. I know that maybe a slight over exaggeration, but am I wrong like what what why else did pull back and put up with Donald Trump? No, I mean look honestly John. I actually don't think that's much of an oversimplification. I think to Ryan understood full well, and I reported this back. You know
a year ago, or so so its old news, it's in the book. But you know I was the first report that that Paul Ryan on election night, twenty sixteen in Jaynes vote Wisconsin I was there and- and I was told that he was ready to give a speech. That night did. He was certainly under the impression. Donald Trump was going to lose and probably lose very badly in support. Ryan had prepared to give a speech that night, basically pudding Trump ISM to death and turning the page on this very dark and ugly chapter the parties history in declaring that henceforth, we will not be this guy's party in and it's time for a new day tomorrow on November knife and when Paul Ryan is watching, those returns come in. He is just stunned. I mean he he's slack jawed and he can't really believe it and he comes out on stage, and he gives a very brief remarks and I told him afterwards. I said it looked like you just seen a ghost and he you could see it written all over his face and, of course, Trump does win, and he puts that speech right back.
To his jacket, pocket and decides than in there. You know what look. I've got a choice here I can remain true to myself. I can be critical of the present as he had been throughout that much of the twenty sixteen campaign. I can call him out for all of his phobia and all of his misogyny and all these other things. But if I do that, I'm not going to the speaker of the house there's just no way it's not going to work. I can do that or I can basically take a vow of silence. I can decide that it's not worth it that that maybe other people in the party can hold him to account and they can police him. But if I'm going to be the speaker of the house and if he's going to contact out essential all of the policy making to me, and let me have this to your window to try and remake. You know that the American Girl and in the in the image of what I've been dreaming about as a movement conservative for decades, your Paul Ryan sticking, then that's a pretty good trade off in, of course, is for just sort of wincing, saying too
Do you know what this is going to do to you and end look Paul Ryan is not dumb. The guy had been around politics, his entire adult life. He understood that this was at his buddies called it. You know Paul's deal with the devil, but he thought it was worth taking it from everything I understand John. He didn't really think twice did. He was not tortured in making that decision, but I do think it certainly here six months later, A year later, and certainly two years later by the time he was retiring and leaving Congress, the weight of this had fully said he in on him, and he understood that has a guy who had always been really popular throughout his congressional career, even when he had proposed in a really divisive policies. He was a really well liked, guy in Congress by a lot of Democrats, and he realized his reputation was kind of permanently tarnished, and that really did bother him, and I could see it on its face when we see down after he retired for our interview in Jane Will- and I could tell just you know within thirty seconds of talking to him-
He was ready to unload and if he felt like this was his chance to sort of you know clear his chest and get these things off of his mind. I mean there's, there's the obvious concern about his reputation, but do you think he regrets the deal at all or does he fundamental? think the tax cut was worth it and by the way, I you know you hear this from him. You hear this from Gary Cone from Dean power from rains. Previous, you know we all stopped. From doing were shit? Do you think they feel good about the deal that they made in terms of the direction of the country? Man? It's such a. Question and I did ask him- and he didn't really directly answer me, but knowing him pretty
well and in doing a lot of people around him and having covered him for years. My hunch is that he does not regret it and he'd, primarily, I think, doesn't regret it for the reason you just stated: it's not so much the tax cuts out so much the funding for the military. I think he is proud of of those things. Don't get me wrong and end of other. You know some of the d reg stuff, no question, but I do think that Ryan viewed himself as a part of this sort of guard rail system more or less that he and rights previous and then John Kelly, who Ryan became very close with an rex till her sin and Jim Madness Ryan. Had this network of five or six people who, with whom you know they sort of collectively formed this force field it as they felt around Trump and ended
They were buffering him and they would basically say to people. Look if you think it to shit, show now imagine how much worse it would be if we weren't here, if we weren't sort of controlling this guy and trying to mitigate the damage. So I think, in that respect too, he does not regret making that deal, but I think it does way on em again. You can sort of seed all over his face when we're having that conversation, so you ve covered Republicans in the conservative movement for a long time now we know we can have debates about. Is the Democratic party moving too far to the left of the Republican Party movement to fire? The right sort of normal times does does what's happening to the party under Trump the xenophobia, the racism that he's stirring up. Does it worry you? Does it scare you to sort of as much as a journalist and a person whose whose follow this because it does seem like since I sent something even beyond the typical you know.
Reporting in analysis. We do about politics, especially on a day like today. You look I'll tell you. It does worry me for a couple of reasons: a I've got three little kids and- and I want them to know, as as it may sound right. You know that president? The american presidency is so unique because you're not just a head of government you're, the head of state and as the head of state, which is very different to the way from most countries, but as the head of state. You know you supposed to be sort of projecting to the masses. Some real of moral leadership and so look. I've got three little boys and I want them to be able to to look up to the highest leaders in our government and see role models right. So the that's a part of it. I'm certainly concerned to that degree, but also this
John. I'm I'm also really concerned because of what we saw yesterday. It's not so much that I think the republican political class is increasingly populated by racists and demagogues. I don't really know that that's the case, but I do think that the republican governing classes increasingly populated by people who don't have the stones to stand up and call out what's wrong when it's wrong, and I think that a huge problem, because we as a country have always had an obviously nobody listening- needs the history lesson on on the more moral shortcomings of the United States. But we as a country have always had you know intense periods of racism and xenophobia of massaging of sort of
the rhythm right and we have traversed those periods and it's been rocky and ultimately, I think most people would agree that the better angels of our nature tend to win out in the end. But I do think that part of the reason that better angels tend to win out in the end is that you have people who are willing to stand up and speak out and make their voice heard, even if there are really severe consequences, and I dont think you're. Seeing much of that and the Republican Party right now met effect. Ethics sing, almost none of it, and I think that more than anything else is really concerning. I do think that there are an awful lot of Republicans Capitol Hill, who are good people who are really really really worried about what Trump is doing about what trumpet sang- and they are this close. They ve got their finger,
over the tweet button and they're so tempted. They really really want to send that tweet and rebuke the president and signal to their constituents and to their family members and to their friends and the people who they care about that look. This is not ok. I can't stand for this anymore, but again when you throw that political self preservation is instinct into the mix, all bets are off and it's really discouraging to see so many people who, I think otherwise do have a conscience and who do have a real problem with what the president is doing, not speak out and not make their voice heard on it. That is what worries me, because I dont see changing anytime soon. I always think that those of us who are of analyze politics for living rubbish-
and a little too much time focused on you know people's character traits in their consciences and like what they're doing about politics on an individual level and not enough focus on sort of larger structural incentives, which is often how politics works. Do you see any incentives out there for Republicans to potentially pull their party back from the brink or back from Trump ISM if he does lose and twenty twenty? I do actually and- and I could be wrong on this, of course, but I really do I mean one of the real shakespearean ironies of this entire stretch of time that I chronicle in the book is that right. Previous was the one who commission this autopsy after Mitt Romney, twenty twelve lost, two Barack Obama and the currency autopsy project was oriented
from this idea that we cannot be a party that relies on older white voters. It's just not going to work that the math does not add up over the long run and of course he becomes chief of staff to the guy who basically wipe his ass with the all time it's worth noting, though, that that math has not changed and, in fact the really the demographic death spiral of modern Republican Party is only accelerating. And so I do think that if Donald Trump were to lose in twenty twenty and only even if you were to win a second term and then left the White House and twenty twenty four. I do think that you still have enough smart, ambitious people on the republican Paul who were going to take a look around and realize? Look, even if I want to try it, annual sum of trumps appeal to two Working class America, and to some of these echo. Anxieties. We cannot just be that already anymore, it's not going to work at the ballot box, it's not sustainable, and so But when you look at some of these people already who are beginning to manoeuvre
very slowly, but very clearly behind the scenes. Nicky Hayley, Marco Rubio TED crews. You can see them trying to split that difference. You can see them attempting to channel a little bit harness a little bit of that Trump populist appeal. Also trying to broaden it out a little bit with the understanding that the party cannot be branded as a xenophobic entity. If there are going to win over voters in Arizona and Texas and certainly already and states that date that have gone off, the or like Virginia and in New Mexico in Colorado. The electoral math just doesn't work, so I do think that out of necessity, the party will self correct. I think it's just a matter of when, because it might not happen immediately, might take ten or twelve years it might take a couple of beatings at the ballot
ex, before they realise that the path IRAN is just not sustainable yeah, I do have a fear that both the conservative media propaganda machine and you know, gerrymandering and voter suppression- a sort of propping this up for now, but I do think you're right demographically in the long term, if you can sort of get past all that which is a big. If yet that they can't, they can't survive demographically for forever, but they're doing their hardest to hang on now with, but with everything they can so TIM. Thank you. So much for joining Us The book is american carnage on the front lines, the Republican civil war and the rise of president Trump. Everyone go, give it a red and thanks for joining us pay. This was a tree for me. Thanks a lot thanks to him Albert for joining us today and well we'll see on the road and six zero.
You kinds of people on this, while their scorpion people in their sub zero people get over. That also, there also what another. What? If? What? If what a wonderful time it was. The nineties when two different character, just at two different colors right scorpion, was like an orange six zero Blue, totally different characters, totally different yeah. We was in the early phase of teaching children. How did not just killed at mutilate their opponents. Jimmy Member- that again being allowed in ending on a high note. I save ii, be eighty eight, be upturns. That's the canal me code, uptown democratic above down down. There Let me be ace. Like start those countries get out, get out, get out get out ways by everyone.
Transcript generated on 2020-03-30.