On the second episode of That's the Ticket, Dan and Alyssa talk through Biden's pledge to select a woman as his running mate and how the candidacies of Geraldine Ferraro and Sarah Palin got us to where we are today. Then, Alyssa talks to writer Rebecca Traister about what media challenges the eventual nominee will face.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome back there. That's the ticket positive american. Many theories were explore. What goes into the vice presidential selection process, I'm dyin Pfeiffer and analyse them astronomical. Almost
episode, we dug into the wedding an announcement process, my everything
kept secret if you missed,
episode, you can go take a lesson in a passive miracle feed.
But you obviously know where to find such into this right now:
can a focus on Joe Binds announcement that he will pick a woman how it is changed, vice presidential selection process, how they, Canada.
He's in jail in Florence, European got us to where we are today
We are also going to talk to New York magazine in the cut writer, Rebecca traced, her
by its decision in what obstacles the nominee were faced with a video next week. We're gonna talk,
how the protests of systemic racism and the corona virus pandemic are impacting.
Decision making process as well
for by to choose a black woman. S is running out
don't you writer, Perry Big Junior about what the pulling a telling us about who by Introduce Amy IMPACT,
of past vice presidential elections on the election.
Also before we get into it, how you doing buddy, I'm great, how are you.
Give her. I mean offices are in pretty good.
How do you feel that we have one of these and are about
Can it be very vulnerable right now and say that we got such extraordinarily great feedback, that people said they didn't know how weak atop the first episode and so
and thinking about it a lot so I'm I'm, I'm bringing my a game today, do feel a pressure
I do feel pressure I don't want to. I don't want to let our our fans, who care about the vice presidential selection process, down
yeah this is
cycles are hard is what I would say to those. Never keep that in mind.
Couldn't godfather, to
could be Beverly Hills. Cop to we don't know our could be godfather.
That word. That was my job for the next episode of earth, because this-
we told you, but I bet you didn't think. I knew though the Godfather three one asked I you know what I did.
Let's get: thou wouldst thou it's really get into now. We have this fascinating in infectious small talk out of the way
back in March, ready for the entire country went into colonel virus lockdown marshals,
months ago feels like
the Dnc held its final presidential primary debate between Joe Biden in Bernie Sanders onstage Joe Biden made a historic amendment provided the most memorable mobile. The night, let's take a lesson
elected president. My my cabinet
Mike administration will look like the country and I
With that, I will in fact appoint a pig.
Woman to be vice president
There are a number of women who are qualified, be president tomorrow I would take.
To be my vice president, unless I want a separate two things,
The decision to put a woman on the ticket
and the decision to announce, you're gonna put a woman on a take in advance.
What was your reaction when you heard Biden say that, and why do you think he made that announcement when he did so? Let me stipulate
that I tend to find Joe Biden to be a very sincere person right, so I didn't love it. I didn't love like I love. I appreciate that
He understands that it's important for women to see themselves in executive office to feel invested in the process and that its time,
However, doing it at a debate felt like such a stunt that it that it is cheap and that I think
you know it made. It feel like a stunt and its women are fifty percent of the population. I think it's it's more than reasonable, but movement woman would be pig to be running mate but yeah. I thought that the it's obviously good that a woman will be. You know vice president, for the first time ever, but
I thought that doing in the debate felt stunted he its areas interesting, like their work like there are a lot of people who share
your view who express that after
then it cannot be the announcement of care be separated from the context in which its happening, which is, as I mentioned,
the final debate on
age? That night were Joe Biden in Bernie Sanders and only Joe Biden Bernie Sanders and at the time they were competing
for the votes of a nun,
who had not proceed nominated far as the enterprises most notably
as with Warren who had dropped out, I believe the week prior and they were both court
her endorsement and her supporters, and so there is that political overhang on it
So I think, if you were to ask the vine campaign that you know beyond just a debate strategy of wanting to
at the moment of the date and drive and incarceration was they certainly did here because
we're all the news was about. We know this a truly historic announcement now
the disagreements between Biden, Bernie I met
therefore, although the war, the other issues of the campaign, but I think
and that the other argument that I think folks on the vines I would make, is that question
was going to hang over the entire process, no matter what and by
had already come to the conclusion that that's what he was going to do. So why be coy about it
I think, is you know. I think that would be their case, but I
yeah, you can see the argument where doing it that way,
potentially whiffs up the idea of women in politics. Broadly
but may has the potential to be diminishing to the
the individual woman who was selected right and the other
I'd say, though, to is that, because there would have been pressure its. I completely understand why he did it
no like that you didn't really want to do it and you got forced into doing it. So I like that
why say like? I find him to be an incredibly sincere person, so I dont think you know it felt it feels stunted, but it I know that you know either way it would have their there would have been criticism
How do you think that their pronouncement has affected the process thus far? Well, you know the thing that we always too
about four people like you and I who have watch this closely for years and years. You know that
back to the beginning of our memory. These things can be called up
de contest? There's like a very different weird feeling, though, when it just all women being compared to each other, that the beauty contest and now
Gee takes on like an even more uncomfortable sort of feeling, but no
Mean look I mean my perspective is that it's been lost
finally, the same as all the other, the sort of
machinations and reporting around other vps elections accept. This is just all women
Joe by incision, upon a woman on the ticket will be only the third time in american history that a woman has been the vice presidential nominee for major money last week
we talked about Sarah Palin in the context of bedding and we're gonna get back to your candidacy later the show, but
I will start by Geraldine for our first.
For those who do not. Now
or may not remember shouting, for I was a three term. Do your congresswoman, a former prosecutor
chosen by Walter Mind as as running running in the nineteen eighty four presidential election of a historic choice at the time.
Mondeo had signalled he was considering multiple women, which was notable certainly at the time, but he
not committed to choosing alone before Ferrara amount was announces, is running. May now.
We're talking about this, because I think it's an important part, important artificial people understand, but also when you and I
our first conversation couple months ago about
casually doing a pride,
act around the vice presidential such process. The first thing you said to me was that you wanted to talk about children, for what is it?
the major so fascinated by that point of american history. So I
Thank you and I are the exact same age, which means we were like eight, when the seven or
when this was all happening. So I remember that this I remember this was
happening, but I never remembered all of the stories in the real history around it and so couple years ago I just started doing a lot of research and I just think it
it's all. She is. First of all, you know, let's go back to the beginning of time. Nineteen. Eighty three.
The e r. I had just failed
the National Organisation of women now which younger
but may not remember Now- but it was probably one of the most
when in feminist organizations back ever, they held there now,
no convention and at their convention they passed a resolution. The resolution said the vice President
must be a woman. Democrats must put a woman on the ticket or the national or organization of women will urge a floor fight at the convention in nineteen. Eighty four,
and so it was taken pretty seriously because this was sort of the beginning of the point where women were seen as a special interest group, but his like fifty percent of the country that they were and so on.
Both they ate was taken seriously and end the national.
Innovation of women had endorsed Mondo before any of this was happening, but then, when he became,
the nominee. He understood that this could really be a historic moment
and so he
considered women, and you know women like Diane Feinstein was on the short list, Barber Mccall, one of my Senate. I
I was on the list and and
o Neil, who was speaker of the house at the time
mandate to consider Geraldine Ferrara, because she was you know for lack of a better.
Description. She was a well her history. She was
stallion the daughter of illiterate italian immigrants. She was working class.
She had put herself through law school, she graduated in the top ten percent. She went on to be eighty eight assistant district attorney in Queens County, and you know my favorite fun fact about her.
Actually established. What was then called the special Victims Bureau S,
law order for those of you who watch, but Tipp only
The thought that she had incredible political chops she,
knew how to get things done. She could represent the women, but she also really come along with the man
and the men appreciated her, because when she talked about feminism, she didn't say
it was anything she didn't make it about men. She just made it about all of them, working together and being equal, so
Hip O Neill was really sort of instrumental in getting her that consideration that she was do I'm
glad that you pushed us to talk about this because you know like you, I was quite young for this election
The nineteen eighty four election is sort of intellect
for a lot of political junkies, its loss to history. This is Democrats, don't like discussing an election where we lost
the electoral college? Five hundred twenty five to thirteen
where the Mondeo ticket only one Minnesota and the District of Columbia,
But it also sort of was the last election before it became sort of part of the
process, where every election will be filled with a bunch of tell all box.
And the in eighty eight election are richer. Been Kramer wrote one
takes the autumn greatest political campaign. Bug in every election since then has been filled with these inside our accounts. That sort of missing in eighteen, eighty four
and so, but when you go back and you re the history about look what happened, it really was really around the such
for our own. It both helps
explain how we get situation and it was the beginning of a lot of really important movement in murder. Politics writ large
democratic party, specifically in their couple, pollute
factors here. I think it really interesting about how jobs
for our ended up on the ticket one
in nineteen. Eighty, even the Reagan beat Carter.
Carter did better with women and men.
And so this was the beginning of what is known as the gender gap. It has been a factor
american politics ever since we're Democrats do better with women and
you know, groups like now, like you mentioned, emphasised that in use in use that, as a pressure point on democratic politicians to do the right thing,
women seriously, but also
You know someone who played in
role on this isn't Hartwell Jesse Jackson,
does Jesse Jackson got in the race and he pledged to pick a woman if he was the nominee which
change the conversation around Mondeo, who knows a former vice president, was the front runner and put pressure on end
You know you can see you know
happen with Monday on Taiwan's appealing in in how it applies.
Joe by incision as we go through this back ass, but it shows
then a lot has changed
time, but not enough when you look at the treatment of it. So a lot of women by Hillary Clinton and Nancy
women who ran up and down about just fall. Politics were inspired by
your selection of Ferrara, the United eighty four convention in froze speeches- incredibly moving
I commend checking out the documentary jilting for our paving. The way if you want to learn more about this
you know in a documentary when my favorite moments is the response to the pact from Congresswoman Future Centre. Barbara Mcclosky. This is our
responded to. The news
I'm home in Baltimore in the phone rings at seven o clock in the morning. It was Congress
woman, Barbara Canal, I sang to me she got the call. She got the call
in theory, the press, and they wanted to interview me in there. I am you know in my sweeping togs, picking up the window kneeling down at the media saying more.
Top it's a girl, mazel tov. It's also
How do you think jolting for candid to see certain
inspiration for a lot of women in politics will, I think,
no. In the same, there was sort of true when we worked for the Obama campaign in two thousand and seven and two thousand eight its impact
simple to dream, something that you can't see, and so there were so many women who won.
To be more active in in politics who just never really thought that if you can
get all the way to the top. I guess you're, just like gonna do it.
You can get as far as you can go, but the idea that you could potentially that the world was opened. The country was open to the idea of having
a woman in the executive office, I think, was really powerful and, like you,
we ve seen a lot in our time and even when I watch her, give her speech, excepting the nomination at the convention in San Francisco and nineteen, eighty four
very emotional because it still hasn't happened right. Like
I mean Hilary of course ran for president, but she hasn't one, and so I think that back then, the idea that it was
possible? Will one interest
practicality, it inspired more women to run and ship
to in the process and just also be really hopeful that they
actually were being looked at as like fifty percent of the actual population, and not just you know, women.
Made it. It is a when you see when you read about and you watch the response, not just among women.
Politicians like Hillary Clinton ends in supposing others, but you see the response among women around
the country in a moment of me Johnny for I became an instant national celebrity. She was
sort of a much bigger draw on the campaign trail at times than Mandela himself.
It does show that representation matters.
Having a woman on the team,
get said something to a lot of men and women frankly about what women could do and
You know, I think that that should never be discounted. The abhorrence even
You know, and it had the unity. Very clear Mondeo was a massive underdog. The entire campaign Reagan was quite popular party. What seemed cruising to re election. The Mondeo campaign was down. Fifteen points.
I urge the for our selection and
picking Geraldine for our they roared into. Essentially a tie.
Now it was. He didn't end that way, but there is a you know, I think
the response to Ferrara and frankly,
Also happens. European rules are going to sack speed.
To both the better
in the peril of picking a woman, as your vice president, rightly
You are picking a woman in an environment that even
all these years later is still filled with massage any right in meat.
In politics in the populace and somewhat
responses to Ferrara
you know. Maybe they seem incredibly out of date now, but there actually not, that unfamiliar to white killer
Britain face into us into those. Sixteen that all of the
men who ran for president in twenty twenty faced and so
You know it's pretty clear in eighteen, eighty, four that the treatment far received on the campaign Travis pretty sexist. She asked
the press if she was called strong enough to push the button.
Referring to her willingness to deploy nuclear weapons during the cold war.
Flora- Waiter- talked about the press coverage itself, telling a documentary- and this press was very high- me very high
the especially them white man,
there were some slight taking an exam
do you have an exam on foreign policy could jerry you now going to take it, and this
after that. Are you tough enough to push the button? My response has also been an I'm tough enough to make sure that our policies in place where you don't have to push the button or was it. I wasn't just the press or even white men. That
you have had a very success response to Joe
for you know there is a documentary since amazing clip of for our kids
caning in Mississippi, Rashid sitting next to a much older white politician. Who is not name to turn
It asked sir: can you make library muffins.
To which lady, the little
The little lady can you he blueberry muffins ads.
Why was he taking taken back lawgiver without sort of missing a beat friendship and says? Yes, I can can you which I thought was an absolutely great response
but there's also
you know a pretty famous
story about Barbara.
What you gonna tell that story. Shore while and I proposed
so the interesting thing, though, to I think just to go back one b that I don't want to miss the point on is that
in nineteen. Eighty four women thought the women of the mandate can be
campaign and like them?
leaders did take,
the choice so deadly serious because they didn't want it to be seen as symbolic bright they wanted. To.
Ever ran to really be able to sort of take the punch
and be a real contender, and so children Ferrara, I think,
did match the moment in that regard, and you know like you
said down and in Mississippi they ask her, you know: can she Cancun? Can she make muffins
and then you have the media just really sort of loved. They loved this, like the
fact that she was a woman and in some instances they really wanted to be able to write the story that model
picked a woman and she didn't get across the fuckin finish line and so
blew up this interaction into just something seismic when Barbara Bush
is campaigning for, for her husband was out.
And someone ask, asked her question off the record about Geraldine Ferrara and she said that she rhymes with rich
and so everyone extrapolate that that means Bitch barber.
Later says that it meant which cause it was right before Halloween either
way. The media blows. This up. Barbara Bush says to her husband that she thinks she sunk the campaign. She can't believe she did that she so sorry. So the first thing she
as also without missing a beat is call for our own to apologise and fairer
a kind of is a testament to her political grit was like girl were good. You
she's, like Barbara, either
don't even worry about it. Wasn't even that bad like work, good and
and Barbara Bush and re telling the story just says like
She was so gracious like. I couldn't believe it I was so upset in. This was her response to me and then, of course, the media
a thing at the mouth stocks. Jerry
for down like pray and is like. Is it true? Is it true? She apologized you she's like out,
our bushes, a great lady and so in so many ways like this. The sort of narrative, this cat fight that the media was dying for she just wouldn't give it to them
issues like now. She's Barbara wish, the great lady so moving on, and you can, you can even see when you watch the coverage that reporters really disappointed. They like now tell us she's a bitch do but but-
she would do no such thing because she truly just understood it was being a part for the course, the army,
There are so many dynamics that we ve seen play themselves out in politics in the years since, in the press conference right, one is tragic.
Two women against each other right, whether that is Hillary Clinton, Michelle Obama, whether it is
come on. I Harrison was with Warner whenever it is like that is always a frequent dynamic. Another part of the campaign that was resist.
Intense press coverage on the finances churning firm
husband Johns Cairo, that dominated the coverage for a month in the thing that people can understand why they Father taxes separately because she had a separate career from his business, and that was treaty.
As essentially a crime had she was trying to hide things. Either
like you can like
you really got to see for the first time how things would play themselves out four year, and you know that
also played itself out in the debate between, for our Vice President George W Bush, which was much more historic than I think, one would think
because you know now it is tradition for the vice presidential candidates to debate it
other, but this was actually the Ferrara
This debate was actually only the second vice presidential nominee debate in history. Bush had now
that had not debated Mondeo when Monday
scartaris vice president in the election and
it is a very historic moment, and it was a lot of people.
Question for his foreign policy now secured experience and during that debate, Bush for the opportunity to try to call her knowledge into question
here is one of the most memorable exchanges. Let me help you with the difference, Miss Guerrero between
IRAN and the embassy in Lebanon, IRAN
We were hats and
allies were with us, the British, the French and the Italians congresswoman for
let me just say first of all that I almost resentful
as Bush. Your patronizing attitude that you have to teach me about foreign housing,
What was your reaction that us? I think it could be summed up by the quote
of the editor of MS magazine back after the debate, which was you
make a man look that bad and live
I loved it. I thought it was so good. I can't even like take credit for issues so funny, but no I mean
both of them went into that debate with sort of impossible expectations right, like George Bush, couldn't be
patronising, which now I'm sure was hard, turned out to be a little hard
She had to you know like she talks about how going into the debate she both had to think about tone
herself down with her like she talked
she communicated through her sense of humour, her queens sense of humour and she,
that she couldn't do that on stage cuz. She didn't want to be seen as aggressive at the sight
time. She was worried about how short she was compared to him. She was only five foot for and so mean it's
an incredible thing to think about all the things going on inside your head, that aren't directly related to the substance of what you're going to have to say, but an interesting thing for people who watch debates like we do is that it
the first time in their nineteen. Eighty four vice presidential debate they built up.
Invisible ramp for her so that people wouldn't actually see how short she was and then they built a platform within the podium so that they would look closer,
height, which is something that is still done to this day. Obviously,
choice was historic right,
the election result, was not good bye.
Imagination, but I dont think any wind blowing
aims Ferrara for that loss, immediately,
Like Monday, I was going to lose that election, whether he picked Geraldine, Ferrara TED Kennedy D. You know
or age Brok Obama would ever think he was going to laying aside. I was just the fact that the matter but
Oh, you know. One thing they think is notable. Is it
appears to us last, a bad taste in the mouth of the overwhelming male decision makers in american politics, because it was too
any four years later before a woman was on the ticket again. What do you think that is well, you know I
I think that when we look back in time, what so many people just remember is that they lost right. They lost. You picked a woman.
And they lost, even though he was probably
we're gonna lose and actually give her mad credit for even taking the job and giving up
congressional sea because it was.
Such a stretch, you know that they would win. I think that
You are a man who's running for president. You see sort of that
challenges that a woman face that other sooner was Joe
dean Ferrara by you know being a what
and in a roman Catholic was was her feet were here.
The fire time after time,
over her stance on abortion? It was the first time in picking a woman
that is, spouses, Guenaud finances and espouses profile were were brought into question and invented at the level that they were
and so I think that you know you take a big risk, its big-
s big reward right in and I think a lot of people who ran for president after that didn't see the upside.
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let's transition to Sarah Palin that you know,
this is the second woman at history to be vice presidential
ass. He was a campaign we worked on. She was John Mccain's ready made against Barack Obama, two thousand and eight Jerry
Amber when you first heard that Poland was gonna, be the nominee. Let's be honest fight. This is not even for me to discuss, because the thing that made our kids
pain? So, wonderful, is that, like we very much had our varies, discreet roles and responsibilities- and I remember like rolling out
Joe Biden unlike good to go and patent downstairs. Sarah Palin, I will
that might be reaction was like whose eyes and her first big day of press was great. You know I mean she's like charismatic she's got lost,
ouch like a governor was also breastfeeding. I mean she was like checked everything
go box, so
a little context of how John Mccain made its decision. So
in two thousand and eight the democratic convention, went first and republican Convention was scheduled to begin the Monday after the democratic convention. And so much
Did something that was actually quite clever for a very poorly run campaign, which was in the middle of our convention? He announced he would be. May his vice presidential selection.
Friday after our convention ended, so Obama gave his nomination,
speech on Thursday night and then make became is gonna announce Friday morning
was very smart because it was a in attempt.
Step one hour, momentum and
you know Mccain had a short list of candidates that included Joe Liebermann,
Tom Ridge who was a former Pennsylvania Governor and George W Bush, is certainly of homeland security, very popular governor in Pennsylvania. When he was in office,
TIM plenty who was the governor of Minnesota at the time.
And a couple of others in pale and was on the list by
really no one. There is never any speculation that should get picked.
Most of this regulation was around plenty Liebermann, an ridge, and
as the communications right on that campaign, I you know, was
overall. In a way some of the efforts that we are putting together to prepare for responding to the choices we actually had.
Opposition research in plans for,
It decided in advance on messaging of what we would say for any of those people I just mentioned. We had no plans
I was sitting in my hotel room in Denver packing my bag, getting ready to go the airport to return to the headquarters, and I
Then email from some reporter who had heard this was that the announcement to be
It immediately circulated around a bunch of people. You know in the campaign leadership we focused on communications and we all thought it had to be bad reporting we almost laughed at and then it
confirmed, I think on the morning.
The air was all tired. I'd stay out, perhaps a little bit later than I should have celebrating in Morocco Bomb except
the nomination and
So the campaign immediately, we know, got on the phone and we
quickly hammered out a response. We had no plan for this, like I honestly
knew nothing about or other that she was the governor of Alaska. Nothing else and
So it will be hammered out a statement that credit
eyes, Mccain for choosing I'm quoting original statement here. The former mayor of a town with nine thousand with zero foreign policy experience a heartbeat away from the presidency. Three.
We put that together. We put it out under the name of spokesperson. Spokesperson was, fortunately not me
I know what I was that we could have been an we had sent
so. The first mistake we made was this: was a decision made by group
people who was probably overwhelmingly mail.
And we did not in any way factor in the
storage. Significance of this selection
not just people who would support John Mccain, but for women across the country and the
mistake we made was he
or got to talk to break Obama before we had sent?
in so doing z that never goes well and so
Obama and Joe Biden were sitting next to each other on the plane.
On the tarmac in Denver, getting ready to take off to begin. The
The post convention barnstorming tore whatever it was an initial written by a bus or a train or about her something ad,
David Axelrod and rubber gives, and a few others, I think, walked up to Obama and widened to talk to them in the cabin about the choice.
And they showed him. The statement and break Obama was not pleased because he immediately got what we did not get.
An on the spot. He dictated a new statement that went out
under both his Andrew binds name. Joe Biden knew the ticket also not please
this failure to adhere to the chain of command and they put out- and you say, but I'm pretty sure that is the only statement in the hills.
If either Obama campaign they went out under both Obama, environs name and that same it
much more welcoming Sarah Palin to the rice.
That's some history. If the house uprising, it was, I think it's also interesting that in the history of veto,
management of women in politics.
For our I was I was a huge part of that Hillary Clinton run the two thousand eight as a part of that,
but european, a sort of left out of that conference.
Station right, she's, not part of service
in its history, which I think is in some part how she would want it based on her response to her to see. But why do you,
That is why do you think that she faced some of the same
obstacles that for our east, Sarah Palin she's complicated bear luck
Sarah Palin, was the conductor of her own demise. In so many ways when you look at the differ,
spit tween Ferrar, oh and pale in one of the things that so different, I think is that back in nineteen, eighty four,
are the women around for our o. The women around Mondo and Ferrara herself knew this is a big deal and I think that
always some level of hubris involved in some one deciding that they will accept. You know the invitation to beyond the ticket sales.
Pale in her level of
hubris was on a whole other level, and
nowhere is for our own and the people in the Mondo campaign in feminists didn't want it to be a symbolic pick. They wanted some serious. They wanted some one who could compete like head to head with. Do you know any man
That was the criteria for that selection. I think it was known at the time it was clear at the time in its no now the pale and pick
was meant to shock in all right like the intervention,
picking Sarah Palin was not to forward the
OZ of Women- it was not. You know that
People who sat around on Mccain's campaign warrant like we are fucking feminists and we're just
to do this. There was the thing I the reason I think it's so different is because
the intention was so different and the fact that the people on the Mccain campaign, who
didn't understand, yeah, it was gonna, get fucking guy,
ratings, and they were gonna, get a lot of press blah blah blah, but that they didn't understand what an important move. This was for women and to have
taking it more seriously and to have better her like the things that were pale
Undoing were not hard to find, you know like she didn't under
stand foreign policy. She had limited experience like
betting as we talked about last week. That's just it's not if you can,
about setting someone up for success which anyone whose picking someone who's never been represented really in in in at this level of politics. Before Should.
Have they didn't do, and so you know a lot of time
People will say, you know, did Sarah Palin set back where
and it's like? No Sarah Palin set back some white man's judgments that, like that's what she sat back home, but you know that
was an interesting thing and in some of the people at the pale and rally I dont know if you,
ever remember the guy Larry Hawkins. I remembered him in so I tried to search and remember exactly what he said but Larry Hawkins was at. He was interviewed at one of her first rallies and he said
they bear ass children. They risk their lives to give us birth. So maybe it's time we let a woman lead us now. I know that
it's crazy- that I think that's a positive thing, but so
I'd, who was not like a progressive view. No feminist male, like the fact that she opened his
eyes up in that way. Now I dont know if they were still open after she spent a hundred and fifty thousand dollars on clothing and attacked stack buckets. Let bake like failed miserably in most televised interviews that she did, because she was
mentally unprepared to be vice president, but I do think,
To a certain extent, you now, I guess women can fly
as well as men
I think you don't in going back and looking at all the stuff in preparation for this podcast. It is
I think, a really com,
ex situation, to judge that Canada see appropriately because
I think it is deeply unfair to jailed for our role to compare the two of them. Correct
They have almost nothing in common other.
And being women who were selected as vice president and it
is also very clear that my nails
pain, although was in a very similar political position as Mccain's when they made the choice but mind s campaign
look at very seriously and there were women at the table when the decision was made, and so they
that decision now,
knowing that this was a very important moment that, if handled incorrectly, would have pretty serious consequences for the advance of feminism, an american life. So I think that
but it is also true that the reception from the press, the political world in the populace of those two campaigns are quite similar actually
and it is of course hard. You separate how, on seriously Sarah pale and took her role from
how seriously it should be considered in history,
Like you, you briefly mention wardrobe like it was a huge scandal during the campaign
did. Sarah Palin had reportedly ass the Mccain campaign to buy her new clothes and that they have spent a lot of money on those close
now, certainly that was a moment in which we on the Obama campaign, mutual political advantage of right.
Oh yes, but that it is never a story that would ever be written about a man. It doesn't matter right,
that's one and then the other one is, you know. Obviously she was did not take government seriously politic seriously. Do not take prepare
ring for the presidency seriously she sort of laughed at it, but then
a few years later. Donald Trump comes down. They ask:
actually exact same way in fact
much less experienced and Sarah Palin and
was treated at least
did not face the same level of attacks from some people that payment
not the job able to grant seriously on his face is ridiculous, human being and was often treated with the appropriate amount of ridiculous innocent derision,
But just I think when you look the coverage appealing in her mistake,
the coverage of trump in his mistakes, you,
you can see.
The conscious and unconscious bias and how we talk about politics- and I think
there's other parallel with Ferrara, which is
european life? Rural also had a big political.
Impact, at least in the short term, like the race,
Fourthly, we are when you buy a lot and the selection of,
Helen energize, the Mccain campaign and narrow the poles, and there are some moments of panic
the democratic establishment, if not the Obama campaign about how
grace was nearing an interesting
that when you read both somebody,
counts of the internet
discussions in the media campaign about the choice of Rome and the internal discussions within the within the Mccain campaign about
pale- and there is a similar born of desperation element to write. So this is from the book game change when miss
Amy decision became, was leaning towards Minnesota Governor TIM Plenty, who would have been clearly a safe peck mean of governor of the bank around state of Minnesota. It's one that became very incorrectly thought he'd be able to put into play because Bush had done very well in it. In
two thousand and four, is what Miss Schmidt told, Mccain. Here's my view of the politics of it
in any nor more your temple and he's a great peck and no brainer, but
isn't a normal year. We need to have a transformative electrifying moment makeup
that's almost word for word what some of the mind deal
advisers we're talking about when they were choosing between fraud and some of the men on the list and
it had the impact is just didn't stick, but the problems with the choice itself and in the rolls Royce are tied to this conversation. We had around vetting last week, which is that
dating put any real thought it like this was a fork. Santa conversation right, the
for our selection was part of a much longer more serious process that Mondeo engaged and had met with all of the people and many times I think, Mccain in Pale him at once. Yap, if not, and then made this in a mate, may dismissal and that's never way to make a decision whether you're buying a mattress, are picking Vice President
Why eat out pushing this for twenty twenty? You see anything
civic lessons for the binding campaign from
is to historical examples. I think that
You know the most important thing is making sure, like theirs
nothing, more important than the vetting and roll out of whoever this person is this woman, I don't even have
is a person this woman will be because I think you see the difference even
with someone like Ferrara, who was so thoroughly vetted and had been in public life. It is a feeding frenzy because look all of the candidates Trump has been president for, like for fucking. Here
at this point. Biden has been in public life for forty years. The running me
pence has been vice president to whoever this person is, is going to be the most exciting thing to talk about and report on, and so
setting who ever VIC V Vp Select is up for success is like critical, and
and anything less than the most thorough process is like malpractice. In my opinion,.
Here I think, that's right- that
we ve. Now we ve seen this happen twice now we ve seen that we were
Those of what progress has been made since June
for reflection, eighteen, eighty, four, that a
Woman vice president, is going to get more scrutiny.
Higher hurdles in greater expectations than any man who would be picked.
Right- and we know that big-
We just went through a twenty twenty primary were we saw
come on Harris Elizabeth Warren Amy Club, which are in others, held too much higher standards in the men who
Tar sands of elect ability, higher standards,
in a corner. Toughness higher standards
of policy knowledge, all of the above
Joe Biden has a list we believe of ten or eleven people every one of them is
smarter, more qualified more,
more dynamic, then might pets to arm.
Is basically homophobic. Top of pay
right, my boring
human being possible egg by my
hence is held Dunno standards right back there,
When he was packed, there were some stories about when he thought that one of the greatest Threats- Amerika Civilization- was the Disney movie. Milan me to oversee the controversy around some of his some of his.
He s positions and, in fact, users
actually miserable governor and seen by many as one of the dumbest people to serve the United States House representatives by.
He fit the mould of. Why.
People have historically expected from a vice president right
Why did he had a good ass during? He was. Why didn't he asked
gives good posture. Yeah he's like gotta pull up as but he's like varies shoulders back straight ahead. He has good posture
that guy great hair I'll say he has got. Actually there politician here, he's
he's not a silver Fox but he's silver.
It's a very strong part. I would say that surrounds
but like they're gonna, be held to a tremendous standard and they're gonna have to face the same
challenges on that
late stage with my pants that gelatine for our are faced with
George W Bush and too
different? Sarah Palin, faced with your Biden,
and when we come back, I was gonna talk to write a Rebecca traced. Her
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I am now joined by New York magazine and the cuts Rebecca tracer Rebecca is also the New York Times best selling author of good in mad and all the single ladys I've read both. So should you traced,
Welcome to that's the tickets hi, I'm very happy to be here. Thank you
We are talking about how you go about picking a vice president and all the things that you really never learn about on tv,
or twitter if Europe even half paying attention. So, let's just let's just say up from before we talk about the VP. Let's talk about jobs
and for a bit. I loved argument about what I do know that about you, and I feel that we can have a very robust conversation during
primary you were not supportive of Joe Biden know ye. You were not alone. Let's stipulate
for the purposes of this conversation that we all acknowledge. This election is an existential threat to our global wellbeing. How ever
doesn't mean that our candidates don't have to do the work. What are some of the biggest issues you think he has to overcome,
in winning over voters who worth supporting more progressive candidates, let's say: well, I think he has his work cut out for it. So I think them by is actually if he becomes the president, while even beforehand as he runs this campaign, I mean he's in such a weird position, because so much of this is being driven right now by fury dismay fear about the incumbent, and so there's this weird way, where
to my eye. He has even been that active and it's gonna, be different from anything we have experienced in our lifetimes through this summer is all felt slightly stalled in part because well, on the one hand, people are paying attention to the government in aptitude and mishandling not just coming from the White House, but on state levels and in both parties when it comes to,
dealing with a pandemic and a failure of the government to economically support its country and its people
in a way that they can remain healthy and safe and economically stable, and that is a failure just across the board and he's gonna need to address that
you also have the protests that have
Iraq did and so powerfully persist through this summer. One of the things that Joe Biden has straight in front of him that, to my mind, is slightly different from what we ve seen before coming from left agile.
Nation and left wing pressures is that the revelation he spacing is that this whole system needs to be uprooted.
So it's not a matter of. Can he check box on criminal justice reform or health care for him? What is happening that, I think, is very good for the car.
Free but he's gonna- be a real test and challenge for this candidate and potentially this president and administration is that
the education and revelation that were in the midst, of which long overdue is that this is an entire intertwined system so that you cannot just do. Oh, I'm gonna fix this thing about health care and then satisfy progressives there. What we're
getting far closer to than I remember in my past is a view of all of this is intertwined so that you can't do criminal justice reform without doing education reform without doing housing policy reform without doing immigration, reform, we're getting a view of the deeply broken system, and so the project that is a head
this candidate, which is very ironic because this candidate rubber,
then so much of the past of the Democratic Party that help to classify and uphold this system right is the.
The desire coming from progressive critics, agitators protestors,
and progressive politicians who are in office in his house right and who are, in the House of Representatives a couple of
in the Senate right is that we need
to dig up the bones of the whole thing, and then
there's a big fucking project. That is a big problem.
Jack. Do you think so, let's go
back in time, a little bit to March Joe Biden on the debate siege. He declares that he is going to
pick a woman to be his running me.
here woman stood the woman who can tell
I love it. I didn't love it in so far, as I mean the separate a couple issues, I care very much about representation.
Politics, and that is not to say that I think getting closer to equal representation fixes our politics. So their allotted distinct issues. Here right we have a broken system that is built around
capitalist white paper right, which means that you know
capitalism money, is in charge. Men
I've been in charge and white people had been in charge, try and not just in charge and as far as individuals. The system has been built around all these things right and so that's created all kinds of intertwining in
quality. It is also true that the individuals who run these systems and for now we're talking about government electoral politics also have not been
preventative of the people that they govern police tax. All about right. I care about representation. It matters. It really matters that there's never ever been. A woman who has been
president or a vice president, and that there is only ever been one woman who has ever been a major power, even nominee for the presidency, and that was four years ago it went.
And it matters, and so Joe Biden
is signalling, like the most rudimentary acknowledgement of the fact that that matters
It would have been nice if he had just saved it named a specific woman. There would have been great type out.
I, like the commitment I agree. I look depending
which woman he packs I'll, be very, very pleased. Do you think that this house,
helps Biden, draw starker contrast between his candidacy,
and trumps presidency and what do you
Mike pencils. Gonna do on stage at the BP debate, given brave wife
so is not alone, and I mean have you need the female vice president. To be your contrast to tell you that Donald Tonnage bump is leg,
abysmally, hateful punitive and abusive and then disrespectful toward women
There are problems that are larger than any vice presidential picker going solve so sure, yeah
don't make back. Andrea is clear. I mean, I think one of the things about the term and ministries and I'm always hesitant to trump- is like extraordinarily an exceptionally
what I do want to deny that, but I am always weary of the way that we focus on Trump as like some singular problem when in fact he is he's just help to make visible what has been true and his party for a really long time, and one of the interesting things that he has helped to highlight is the Republican Party than terrible for women and two women for decades. You know and that you forever ways but passed
illustrations have worked a lot harder to do kind of window dressing on George Bush actually promoted a lot of women within isn't administration. You know there has been more of that. You know John Mccain PICS European, as is running me,
You know there has been more sense of like we're the party of women pretend stuff and
Countries does away with that right. He doesn't even bother with that. So and in fact, I think heave use it as a sign of weakness and so his
our photos are all those photos of like you know. Twenty
white man riding
a table like people are like all look he got caught out just like no that's. The message is trying to say, like he's very big, on sending an anti woman public message with pride.
Priority, but, like again, that's already established its now.
Going to be like I can't
and somebody seeing Joe Biden than his female
running me and being like what it we really strikes me down from. Doesn't respect,
if your butt
and who's running May. To me.
Later get elected like it will be the first time in american history.
That a woman has been elected vice president and like he may pick a woman that
I would rather not see, as vice president, but two things can be true at one time and one of those things
it will be true. Is America will have done something that has never done before? If it happens right and that that is,
painful, even if it's not meaningful in a way that satisfies me, it actually does
or that we have never seen a woman in federal executive office. Before this,
matters, because it is reflected in our policy. How we pull
and tax women's bodies. How you know it's
we especially not a lack of representation that doesn't find its reflection and echo in the way
systems are built and our laws are made, and so electing woman isn't instantly going to or perhaps ever gonna change those laws and policies. But the fact that you know we can conceive of changing the representation is like it's not meaningless. It is, in fact, to some degree very meaningful and, let me add, I think it is possible to likely, as some of the one in that he's, considering
Lackman Comma Harris, Stacy Rooms, you know we have never even nominated a black woman to be vital
We have never. In this country elected a black woman to be governor of a state I mean probably Georgians did in tone.
Eighteen, but she's, not the governor. So knowing that that
they made is going to be a woman. I'm
we have seen in the past couple hundred
for many years.
The media has a very specific bias and how they cover women
Ferrara, pale in Clinton, and you have
and extensively about this. I think it's important for people,
were listening to
be reminded of things to look out for, because I think in so much of what you wrote after twenty sixteen people, didn't we
eyes what was happening at the time, but then, when they read examples of how Secretary Clinton was unfairly,
did they were like I'll fuck. I dont even realise that at the time can you give some of your grossest examples of things. People should be looking out for what it was
because I covered the Clinton campaign in two thousand eight in the primary campaign against Barack Obama and its
funny people always say to me: God. You must be so pessimistic having covered women and issues of gender and raise in class and bias in these presidential elections. It must be so depressing just do it over an arrogant, and that is true.
True, but there are also ways in which it can make use of helped. You missed it because I'm actually seen an arc of progress so in a way
when Hillary Clinton was actually now. She certainly is not the first woman run for present and not even the first woman
Chisholm in seventy two made one of the first
I will, though it was really more symbolic and then you
traumas, brown petrodollar meet runs later was but all sort of attempt, but they don't get very far Clinton's run into doesn't eight- was the closest that any woman than had ever come
getting an interpreting nomination and it was incredibly drawn out long primary battle against Barack Obama and the media. I did not know what to do with her and the examples then, which I was the first race that are really covered, we're just so discussing an egregious that if somebody like
I heard them now. I didn't know about the menu. Like really that happen, I'm one of her opponents, John Edwards, made fun of her jacket in a debate,
Who asked you say something positive and negative about her. In a debate and a presidential debate, John Edward said
I really admire some of things your husband did, but I don't know about that jacket. Okay, she was the only woman standing on the stage and she was like in a pink jacket or something he's like I'm, not sure about that jacket so
Pendule, glad about that pendulum,
that had done well in February as it was black instrument and that Clinton was doing great in March because it was white Bitch month there was a nutcracker you
people. Oh an MP hours and the unemployed producer compared to Glencore.
In the final Siena fatal attraction where she keeps cat where she comes out from the back and then as to get shot and like the blood merely anyway,
and then there were just this whole raft of like, in some cases, Fox NEWS. Commentators who you think like there was all this. You know life's a bitch, don't go for her all that kind of bumper sticker stuff. That came out of Fox news
from like pundit son. You know morning Joe and said there's a lot of like she sounds just like your ex wife standing outside of probate court like Christmas
You said that remember she's, only a candidate she's only a senator, because her husband messed around I mean it was out of couldn't raw like nobody had the basic vocabulary of sexism. People made fun of the pan suits. It was like kindergarten, sexism and then by twenty sixteen people and gotten smarter,
marginally, smarter, and so there was less of that, like I think, she's a big. She was gonna Castro
man, although there was there, wasn't that sign that the agenda of man ass- I was, I guess, archers I may remind one when I favorite, but there is by far the
wasn't coming from like an MSNBC pundit, he didn't say there was enemy of agenda of genocide, which was like a stark improvement over two thousand eight in twenty sixteen. It was very different and it was much tougher in some ways to point it out, because, especially, I think, as the party was growing, more progressive and you had Bernie Sanders
staging a really exciting run from the laughed and
a lot of the criticism of Clinton was coming like there was.
There is a real reckoning, with a sort of centre left a governing ideas. That Clinton was representative of the thing that was harder than was to pick out what was general and what was not gendered right, because there was a lot of valid stuff there, but the intensity with so much the hatred of her with so much the vilification of her with so much I mean one of the things you could really pick out in twenty. Sixteen was the dishonesty thing like of all the things you could sort of accuse Hillary Clinton being that were negative. You could
kinds of critical things about her. That by many measures would be perfectly valid. But honestly, like included as one of the most like known figures in a man
in politics. We couldn't for a politician was extremely forthcoming. Wizard. Above all, the criticisms you could make of her dishonesty didn't actually rank, and yet it stuck to her and in that sell me should tell us that there was something like biblical, something like Eve betrayer.
There was something incomprehensible about her. She wasn't human. I had people telling me through out twenty. Sixteen. Like liberals and people, unless
I don't know she just doesn't seem like a human being to me, and it was like right,
because most of us actually don't run for president. Most of us aren't like she's, not that those people are necessarily comprehensible to us, but like for her, it was like that made people angry and one of them
weird things, but Joe Biden victory and twenty twenty is that that's been kind of interesting and depressing his sword and make clear the intensity of your hatred feels like is tied up in her gender
you could never have that battle, because it would make somebody incredibly angry. No, it's not it's, because she is a knee
liberal, warmonger and you're like ok,
see why you're arguing, but I think that, like the fact that you wake up thinking Mohammed, you hate her might have a different dimension to it. So what?
Joe Biden. There's not the same in time,
and he has, if anything, a far more centre right.
Current than Hillary Clinton like she hoped campaign and twenty sixteen was actually moving in a like hurt. Political trajectory was moving to the left in a way that
exciting for me at the time as somebody who had been a critic of her in the past and thought that she was actually opening up to a more progressive ideas in twenty sixteen and she had in two thousand and eight, and certainly as a senator
for his candidacy. Hasn't it up until very recently, hasn't really signalled any moves to the left hasn't really signalled big concessions to progressive ism. His record is far more in
drenched in a sort of neoliberal actually enough in the bill. Clinton administration,
to which Hilary I was gonna attach, but in the administration of these one version of that
story in which she was an hour. You are from the progressive side and the Clinton administration Abiden was very entrenched in that administration. He wrote. The crime bill you know is on the wrong side of bankruptcy stuff.
And yet there is not that same kind of I wake up in the morning and think about how much I hate Joe Biden, Adam Sir
just wrote an incredible peace for the Atlantic about that
when on the right, which is that true
having a hard time running against violent, because you can't bring the race and gender stuff that you know Republicans were able to bring against
and Obama in previous cycles last question for you. You have read
already about how we ve seen democratic women forced to respond to terrorize sexual assault allegations against Biden there. There,
sponsors got outsize coverage. How is this a trap?
for whomever his running made, is, and is there any way they
and avoided provide it. Satin,
factory answers, or is she doomed to be asked about it again and again and again? Well, I mean I think that there is no question that one of the reasons that Joe Biden has promised to pick a woman tm is that he has sustained
a lot of criticism over the years well in advance of the assault allegations brought by terror Reid. He has been criticized for decades for things having to do both of his behavior and his policy making, and so you know he has evolved as they say on abortion, but he had a bad history around abortion policy of supporting hide eagerly. Even when I had no exceptions of being personally anti abortion and taking bad votes on it. Up until very recently he's better on it now and that's good, and I appreciate it and respect it. He is mismanagement of the Anita Hill hearings in nineteen. Ninety one was probably an event that helped to form me and and millions of other women politically. He was in charge of those hearings, as that had a Senate Judiciary Committee and permitted Republicans to go after Hill Inn in ways that were
just disgusting and then for years he claimed that he apologized to her, but he never did, which is something she said he has been on. You know on the wrong side of all kinds of financial, bad policy that disproportionately affects women. You know go back and look at his arguments with Elizabeth Warrant over Bankruptcy Bilin she doesn't too and then, of course, there is the before you get to tear reads, assault allegation, which I think there has been considerable doubt at this point, K
on that, but that's a very tough question, but what you do have multiple women and lots of video of Joe Biden, sort of making inappropriate remarks and touching
happened by the way. I was during the primary campaign
after he had been criticized for this for having touched and kissed women in ways that made them feel uncomfortable. Sometimes, fellow politicians, young women who he met a public events. He didn't react by
gosh. These are bad habits, and I am I'm learning from what you're telling me about how my own personal, communicative habits have made. You uncomfortable. He turned it into a joke
we can set. I know I'm not allowed to touch you. You know Eden treated with a lot of seriousness. You know he continued to make sort of paternalistic
Our goal comments to young women- I mean he there is this the one instance you know where he told the brothers of young girl, like your job, is to keep the boys away.
You know it's just the stuff, so he has a long history of sustaining feminist criticism and there is no question that one of the
reasons that he will pick a woman is too
as a defence against some of that kind of stuff. It's a strategic move and is,
we're not dumb, and
That means for that woman, whoever she may be
isn't. She will be asked just like
found a guy who sustain really valid feminist criticism over the over the years and that's part of her job
and is there a way
for her to win it that you know, even if any, MRS Politics. So if we're
the real world we're not in an ideal world. I think that there are some
Running mates, he could pick who would respond to some of that stuff by saying
You know I shared dismay back then, but he's really learned since now Harrison by now. You know there are people who might say
You know I can't answer for him.
And then there are other people who will do a more traditional route, which is
Joe Biden, I know, is a wonderful man who respects women and you know like that's. That's your can't answer
and that's their job to some extent its end. What upsets me is that the prospect of those women in the process of depending on which we will be there
Would I prefer them to give them more honesty, answers and say? Yes, I remember watching those hearings and being horrified that you know I probably shouldn't harvest
but being feeling dismay and shock that Anita Hills stay maltreatment and wasn't better defended by not only Joe Biden but many of the other Democrats on this
and so I share your concern, but I know that Joe Biden
I thought I learned a lot about their sins and understands that mistakes. He made I'd love to see their version of it, but I also hate that if we don't see that version, if what we get is the more traditional from Paris
like that same imaginary, wonderful person, I'm drawing in my brain who
says like look. My job here is to say the Joe Biden I know is wonderful and respect women, unlike doesn't do the deeper dive. More nuanced answer, though, then, what's going to happen is that that person route
our lives are what her actual career has been like. What her politics positions are
We're gonna be like oh she's, just keeping for binding she's, just you know, and that it somehow gonna
her fault and that's the thing that I'm really bracing for because I feel it myself, I feel it in myself. I have felt myself being really disappointed with them.
The women who have been asked about Joe Biden right now, women, who I admire and women who
I respect and whose careers I expect to be following for decades to come, and I myself have
this like. Why are you doing this and I really check
self and, unlike, why am I
evaluating this person based on her reaction to him, one of the things that if you have the
paying attention to women presidential politics over the past few cycles. One
the things. Your note is that women, the way they react to men, whether they judge them or forgive,
them or how they respond to them are how they talk to them. Wines of being the most salient thing about them and we can look to specific examples. Look it calmly, Harris what's
that everybody remember from her presidential run? It was when she criticized Biden and you either remember it in a way where you were like yes, colonel of or you were like. How could she say that about Joe Biden, whose son helped her? You know, like whatever defence mechanism you have looked,
listen children whose entire career, which is a fact
leading political career. Having moved from, like a centre have member of the house to a very
Russia politician, whose done work on sexual harassment and assault military college camps
entirely evaluated, based on the distance
she made around I'll frank and look at it
Warren and how she got turn into a snake meme. Because of some
That leads to about a story. She told about something Bernie Sanders set about her. That was like the most explosive thing about Elizabeth warns: candidacy, it's all
This way in which we are still evaluate women, based on how they
interacting with or defending worn attacking.
Powerful men who are still the centres of our concern. And so that's the thing.
Trying to guard against. I am more interested in how, in these women's careers,
and ideas independent of their relationship with whichever powerful man they happen to be cast either in alliance or opposition to trace their thanks
you for coming on. That's the Tec, it thank you so much.
Having me, it was a
the final thoughts on this topic. Women are awesome, that's my final thought I agree. Alyssa, thank you
Thanks everyone next week, will we back with a final.
Said we will talk about.
How campaigns make the decision
how they announced the decision and what impact the
recent reckoning. Over institutional racism in his country will have on Joe eurobonds process in its decision
thanks everyone so much and talk to you next week
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Transcript generated on 2020-07-24.