The President steps up his efforts to blame China for the coronavirus, the Trump campaign is divided over its re-election message, Joe Biden responds to Tara Reade’s allegations, and the Vice Presidential selection process begins. Then Austan Goolsbee, one of Obama’s top economic advisors, talks to Jon F. about how to dig ourselves out of this crisis.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
The presented sponsor. Pod save America is recruiter during this
of change. We wanted another difficult is focused, hasn't changed there still
but they ve always done helping people find work and helping
Businesses find the right people for their open roles if you're looking for a job, zip recruiter will work with you to find the right job faster,
their dedicated to helping you get higher from caretaking to deliver food and
to building medical facilities, supplying protective equipment, and so much more. In fact, zip recruiters apple send you up to date, job openings, so you can be one of the first to apply
and if you're actively hiring zipper critter will invite candidates to apply to you.
Urgent roles, making it faster
and easier to reach the people you need by can
people who need jobs and companies that need people. Zip recruiter is working with all of us, so we can keep moving forward. Let's work together, visit, zip, recruiter, dotcom slice work together to learn
I welcome the POD save America, I'm John Fibre, I'm John Love, it Tommy Door
as part of my conversation with one of President Obama's top economic advisers, Ostend ghouls be about how to dig.
Out of this mess.
For that will talk about how the president is trying to rewrite the history of this pandemic and will die
one of the challenges that both the Trump and Biden campaigns are facing, with just six months to go until election day. Whoop,
the first love it. How is the show this week? Great love it or leave it
We had at Helms
Who are we had a libyan? Nigeria grew big, get
Gatt we'd Olivia not see who talked about covering Trump from the briefing room. We played a game with pride
at home, and then I did the monologue on an app called O. Where are you
oh random strangers and then tell them a joke.
The good news is: I saw zero penises I've gotta chat roulette, but also that it is a way that is. I chat roulette with your regulations,
the bad news? Is, I didn't see any penises sorrows,
on a joke. The first signs of looks like
an episode title also, if you're looking for a fund break from the news check out hollow shame, crickets pocket
about some of the biggest scandals and sports history and there lay
two part episode
Rachel and Retina talk about the career of meadow world peace. The best
football player, formerly known as RON our test. While I haven't thought about that a long time, but did all malice at the palace, it's great one
Listen to me. Listen subscribed to howl of shame now on Apple pie, Cast Spotify or anywhere. You listened upon, it will say
We say that those hollow shame upsets pair nicely with:
Jordan Documentary, which is the only thing I look forward to on a weekly basis. Now there you go there, let's get to the news
as the United States Meares seventy five.
And deaths and well over a million cases of covert nineteen. The president
preparing a national testing and contacts tracing strategy that would allow many of us to safely leave our homes. He is not. Instead,
He is working overtime to try to blame. His shitty responds to the pandemic on China during
Fox NEWS Town Hall on Sunday night Trump echoed Secretary of state, might pompiers assertion that the corona virus originate
in a war on laboratory. Saying quote, I think
made a horrible mistake and they didn't want to admit it so
me Pompiers any seen enormous evidence that this is true,
last night, the Associated Press, gotta Department of Homeland Security Report, that said chinese leaders quote intentionally concealed
severity of the pandemic in order to stock up on medical supplies for themselves. First question:
How do we know whether to believe any of these be enormous?
and they re like a huge by me. So I think if it helps to just talk about how the blame China story has evolved over time, writes a virgin,
one was the Tom cotton version and some others on the far right that suggested the corona virus was created by the Chinese
is by a weapon, and I think pretty much. Every scientists agree that that is nonsense. They believe this virus jump from above
to a few men, are about to another animal and then to humans. We had a lot of deadly viruses from that's like a ball, and Sars will make sense. That's why
I like the one it will on collection
both from wild bats and they do research on them, they want to find the next corona virus like covered
version too, is pale and Trump saying scientists
DE. I will hunt instead of biology, were studying
obeyed some out of
escaped from the lad. Maybe a technician got it. Maybe there was an improper waste disposal who knows so with when it comes to that.
Theory. Unfortunately it is not an absurd one. In twenty fifty
the? U S. Military accidentally shift live anthrax bores, instead of dead ones to other labs, protesting whoops big mistake
in two thousand for Chinese.
Searchers, researching Sars got infected
because of their work, and then we also know that the washing post report,
leak State department cables that warrant. I think twenty eighteen, that the one lab had poor safety standards is worth noting that the tribe administration did nothing to address the security concerns that they were cabling back
and so version three of the of the story of the plane. China story is that China can
Will the severity of this virus to stock up on medical supplies themselves before the rest of us? Could here's the key point show us some fucking ever
right because so far we have seen nothing Trump said it is my opinion that they made
stake and they tried to cover it up
ABC Pompiers said China has a history of infecting the world? What does that mean? He also where, with a fine
gross the grossing say he also had to admit that the intelligence community hasn't yet concluded
that this virus leaked from a lab and they're all these reports that the White House is directing the intelligence community defined links between the virus in the lab and that's dangerous, because when you're cherry
King intelligence to suggest say: Iraq has
WMD you can
to a bad place right which collect all the evidence then come to a conclusion so
I'm not seeing any of this to defend the chinese government, but if
Concern is really a lab safety and there are a lot of reasons to be concerned. As we just discussed. This would be
good time to increase global cooperation and trust with the Chinese introduced at a dress that underlying concern, but for Trump
about raging on China, it's about domestic politics, it's about pretending, their tough.
I'm sheet in paying when we all know the Trump was saying
She had done a great job, so that this is just it is spent.
And, like I hope the press will say to them.
Show us the evidence before we parent your claims bees, we just went through this time.
With customs alimony, where they said that he was. This
Iranian general was an imminent threat. I he was gonna take out
U S, service members on bases in Iraq, and so they assassinated him and then they abandon that protects a couple weeks later. So we know that they lie about intelligence, all the time so love it.
Say: the virus did start in a chinese lab and the Chinese did conceal the severity of the outbreak. How does that change trumps cope,
ability for the? U S response, because you know that I'm just pointed out Trump receive
warnings that the how mob had massive security issues
there are a two questions: one: what mistakes to try to make around corrective arse right? Did it
Can only come from a lab, did they can?
he'll the spread to protect themselves or because they hope they could do
What that without an international scorn or or or controversy, and then there is the question of. Why are they doing this? You know?
in the middle of a fire, you don't
learn to another fire fighter and say you really fucked up this fire
I want you to know when this fires out I'm coming for you
I'm in a blame. You I'm gonna, make sure you pay for this fire, not that bad,
I have to back to the draft, and so like
We know why they're doing this job is not doing this because he has concerns about international lab safety. He's not doing this because
He wants to make sure that China is held responsible in the long term for their poor, prank
says here, no he's doing it because he wants a scapegoat, he needs a scapegoat and he cares more about protein
in his own image in the fighting of this virus, then doing what's best to combat this virus right now, because what time is it is true. If there is a problem
in the lab safety in China. Will that will be
We want to work with them. On that basis, we want to talk about what went wrong. What are the best practices be to implement to make sure something like this doesn't happen again, but that's never what they're talking about it's about punishment? It's about record retribution. It is about having a talking point. There was a
a memo that went out last week or the week before last or six months ago. I don't know because time to stop, but he had said that base
glee: a republican strategies was advising Republicans when
Mr Corona virus dont defend Trump blamed. China rewrite dont, get stuck on defending trumps, bad decisions and bad behaviour focus on China as they
That's a winning issue and Trump understands that Tom Continent
stands that Mitch, Mcconnell
You're stands that and so that's why pop Hale understands that it is illegal.
Pretty simple me.
Ground here, which is blame Trump for believing China, because, like we
warnings did Donald Trump have from our own intelligence agencies that China,
was possibly concealing the severity of the outbreak, even
Joe Biden in a debate worn trump, not to listen to the Chinese and everything they
saying about this. You know also Transnational Security Council hadn't.
Agents in January, that predicted the virus would spread throughout the U S and they were suggesting people keeping people home.
Shutting down cities in the winter, something Trump refused,
to do until March, and then yet all kinds of warning
Alex Aser help and you can serve as a secretary said to Trump. This is gonna, be horrible. This could be a great pandemic trump call him alarmists. So it's like. Let me he wants it. Just put the focus on China, and part of this is there's like a parallel track. Where he's trying to get people to forget that he ignored warning after warning. All all trump says when you ask him either at these press briefings or in these interviews about this,
Like I had the travel ban, I put the travel ban in place from China and he acts like as soon as he put the travel ban in place. Everything went Swimming Leeson ran right here. It is like his. His position is a bit like China.
Is a dangerous menace and ve defeated me right.
I thought he had thought yours, but you are tough on China that you were strongly tough and tough. We strong on China, endless like
the any democratic go down. This rabbit whole, but
we want is a city in a province in China and there's a lot of reporting that suggests like to the extent that there was a government cover up early on. It was the local government and then what
and the feds came in from Beijing and they saw how badly their handle they crack down. The kick the shit out of them made the and so look there.
A lab accident in Sarasota Florida because of some loose regulations from random
and this? I think we would all be pretty pissed off if the entire country was blamed for it and then there's just
there's a better way to manage China if you really think their use huge threat, the to the planet,
the better way to deal with actual lab safety concerns
I also do things like a lot of this sort of foreign
Does he minded senators. Democratic centres have an asked about this and I think they all had pretty reasonable responses which are there are.
Serious questions to be asked about what happened and and China's behaviour in the outbreak of this pandemic. But that's not why they're asking the question- and we should remember that
scapegoating that the debates on their scapegoating China, because there,
by their own performance. I do think I do think people are striking the right balance so wash unopposed,
ported that senior officials are beginning to explore proposals for punishing or demanding financial compensation from China for its handling of the pandemic Tommy. What are the potential consequences of punishing China for hiding or downplaying the severity of this pandemic?
I'm lucky a couple of things like one? It would be useful to be correct before we start alleging that the Chinese are somehow responsible in some way for creating a world ending pandemic so
on top of that they own, I think, a trillion dollars of? U S: Treasury bonds, that if they started dumping knows it could create something
just for our own economy for interest rates over here, we have to work with them.
In any number of places at the G20 at the U N, to get things done like I don't. I don't think we want to escalate a fight with a country that
is potentially going to be the place where covered vaccines are manufactured. One
They, like there's a lot of reasons you could see. This spinning out,
bad direction and again that's not a suggestion that we coddled China
Are we hide the truth? It's just that this, this war of words,
stupid and self defeating, and it's not backed up with an actual strategy where we are going
to our allies, whether its regionally with Japan and South Korea and others or to Europe?
we're bringing all those groups together as a way to push back on China collectively we're just pissing off everybody at once, and seeing where the chip plant lets us
is the goal. What is the role like? What are
you're trying to achieve by creating punishment around
the outbreak of the virus against China. What is your actual agenda? As a too
because you're so worried about another pandemic that you're trying to disincentives bad practices around future diseases is that is that really the goal lieutenant
struck concessions on other issues, around trade or an intellectual property are trying to just win a political fight at home. But what is the goal of having this fight with?
not right now, and I mean no one explain what that goal is no one threat
I was going to say, like into till your point: love it about your knowledge about putting out the fire like end users, Tommy China could develop a vaccine
very easily? We are also very dependent on China for pharmaceuticals met lot of medical equipment comes from China right, like as we are battling a global pandemic,
we need more global cooperation than ever before right and we can
wait, wait until after the pandemics over and try to sort things out about who cause what whose fault who's responsible, but as we
As we are in a race for a vaccine that could save millions of lives, you probably want to cooperate with everyone else in the world. Right now I mean
The? U S like one one. I think that the U S under Trop has left a gaping hole for international leadership. China's tried to
ensure that whole ok and its
and in a moment where China's reputation is faltering, where people are looking to blame
in China, for this virus and trying to try to make up for that by sharing health supplies and trying to prove that they belong
sort of as this international leader on the world stage. America,
it could either step up and demonstrate its it's his store.
Role in leading a global effort, but because Trump is unable to
Do that? Don't think that's going to happen! The only option! The only option is to try to tear China down to try to to try to make sure China doesn't supplant the United States on the world stage, because they don't know how to do what the United States used to do in a crisis
was an agency to jump, let's start building the gigantic factory
we will need to manufacture a vaccine at some point before
our pissing off the countries that have that capability today. That would be my yeah yeah good good
So we are now less than six months out from election day. I want to talk about the challenges the both campaigns are facing. Let's start with the Trump campaign, there is one
imposed story over the weekend that the term folks are still struggling to find a message. Now that we're headed toward
depression levels of unemployment,
and their own internal Republic and National Committee Polling shows the president trailing Joe Biden in
the battleground states. Forty five to forty eight percent from Strategy
told the posts that there are only shot at winning is driving up, binds unfavourable numbers, but there s
divided over just how to do that Tommy. What are they struggling with the earth without? What's the internal debate, that debate is basically do we use a bazooka or a flame thrower to scorch the earth? I mean
They know, that's are their only path to victory is destroying Joe Biden. They want to drive down enthusiasm among Democrats among young people, of suburban women, and the question is how
Washington Post reported that some people in the campaign, like Brad PAR scale, the campaign,
you're essentially want to say Joe Biden is senile. Anything like Donald Trump
himself is on border that strategy, because he is calling him sleepy Joe constantly suggests that Biden doesn't write his own statements or tweets. They talk about him, hiding Bobby,
washing post reported that tallying Conway in particular is worried. That Trump is our
losing ground the seniors and they worry that mocking binds age could exacerbate that problem. I would respectfully suggest to colleagues that the bigger
problem with senior that they might have is rushing to reopen the economy and thus maybe killing them. I would do it that diversity, but you're there,
debating the strategy about whether to haul Biden,
time China any of the super packs and others are put big money behind that and so will see if it works. It seems like a bit more of a bank shot to me so
whatever they're gonna. Do it's gonna, be pretty grass, I mean just an aside here: there are
a folks on the left, including in the progressive media, who were
circulating. Edited videos and just asserting the Joe Biden was in cognitive decline, and I would just to congratulate all of them for helping lay the groundwork for these attacks, even though we
well seen no evidence that Joe Biden is in cognitive decline in any way. Reportedly, when
he jumped on the phone with Donald Trump Trop remarked,
own team product. I didn't seem senile at all, so you know
work area about its like
be twitter isn't real life. No, I mean, I think, that raising
raising mental fitness in a race against Donald Trump. For president,
is quite a strategy in its I would
that is well know it's interesting in their peace,
You know the other debate there. Having is does Trump wait until the convention or not to start going hard negative, which is funny that, like now basis,
I'm not going hard negative amid I guess he doesn't spend like everyday tweeting about Joe Biden like you did. Hillary Clinton, so I guess, like more, could be to come. There also
when a debate like what can adds to run when in this
Apparently, there spending a lot of money promoting trumps response to the pandemic, which most people think is just the sort of please Trump, because they don't think that's gonna do any good because they don't think that's really going to resonate with people.
It is, and this in a really good way, so
he's got interesting watching them just sort of like struggle for response, what it
one Trump adviser told the post quote one of them.
Since we want in twenty. Sixteen is because so many people hated Hillary Clinton, I'm not sure people hate Biden that much
What did you think about him? And how would you compare sort of the twenty sixteen dynamics with twenty twenty yet
first of all, I welcome
and Conway you know putting on her white gloves and saying, like I'm, not comfortable with us on that unease as what Brad,
Scalini's hooligans these hooligans are trying to do by. I honestly, I think it's bad strategy, but it just makes me uncomfortable so yeah
I do wonder if a little bit was just about saying to sort of sending a red flag
All the outside group saying destroyed Joe Biden. Now we need millions of dollars on the air to destroy Joe Biden
a million dollars praising Trump on the corona virus responses, what they ve put behind it. That will not help because that, like, if you ever.
If a million dollars of ads praising tromp go up against hundreds of
we of dollars of
free media about how,
he's bundled it. I dont think that move the needle it interesting that
Hilary Biden comparison because you know we talked about this-
One of the reasons Joe Biden
is the nominee. Is that in a fractured me
environments. It is very difficult for someone to gain the kind of reputation and name I d and kind of deep knowledge that Joe Biden has accused from the he's from
for when we made people, s famous is Joe Biden, so was Hillary Clinton the difference in Dubai
Harry Glinda that Hillary Clinton stepped into this role is democratic. Germany, with thirty years of attacks against her that had really made her a kind of a vilified figure may think. The greatest trick, Republicans ever pulled was pretending to like her for the four years she was secretary of state, so
so Zobeide comes in buying comes in with that inherit advantage in their finding. It really really difficult to chip away at that, and I think that the pandemic makes their job that much harder.
Because they're kind of relentless media coverage Donald Trump relies on to poison.
Well, it's just not available to him right now, Brad Pascal one of these pieces points out himself that that Donald Trump is not really attacking Joe Biden from the briefing room and and and Donald Trump without that podium without that rally podium to kind of start, throwing these
there's he's reduced to twitter, but we ve been living with Donald Trump tweets now for four years, and they just don't carry the punch. They once did. Yeah I mean, I think, there's there's two major differences. One is the candidates, as you point out, an Hilary areas had thirty years of attacks that you brought to the raise. The other big one is the political dynamics of the race. Donald Trump is not the challenger anymore Donald Trump, as the incumbent, as
Challenger Donald Trump- is very good at you know: trying to burn down the barn and talk about everything that politicians in Washington and government are fucking up now he is the government
Middle of the worst crisis of our lifetime and he is fucking up and it is very like he know.
And his team knows that they have to make this this race about Joe Biden. It is very hard to make a race about Joe Biden about any democratic challenger. At a time where the incumbent is presiding,
were the worst crisis. If our lifetime listeners in any hard to make it anything but a referendum, will try, but it's hard to do.
This was in the times, but I just want to read this because it was such a. It sets its an obvious come moment for Trump in the phone call last week, for instance,
MR trumped, demanded to know how it was possible that a campaign that had been projecting, strengthen invincibility for two years was pulling behind.
The candidate he viewed as extremely weak and, at the moment, largely invisible the answer. According to nearly a dozen people, they talk to a dozen people to prove this lies in the factors both
on the president's control, such as the economic downturn and the spread of the corona virus, as well as those in his control, namely his playing down of the corona virus for several weeks, followed by his own performance in the briefing room, it's like so
Why have your numbers gone down? Why are you in trouble? There is a great depression, there's a massive pandemic and you ve
manage it not that complicated the best. The best part of that story was, he was so mad at Brad PAR Scales campaign manager when he showed
bad polling and swing states that he threatened to sue them
and to sue S, campaign, picture per backbone, and then the guy that come back a couple days later from it
Mansion in tamper with a new positive cut, to show everything and improve them in a passionate shut up. It's like, of course,
no wonder he play down the krona. Cyprus responds the guy, can't look at evidence that
bad for him without lashing out.
I also I, although do just I just love the idea that terms looking at these polling and end, is the hit like his presence.
It is on the line there. So many people dead and sick the countries in crisis and he's like I gotta- get back pay from this
add per scale. Guy he's not earning that paycheck. I ivy. I assume it was the kind of thing raise that I could see like lashing out. It does, but it still it still pretty amazing, pretty amazing.
What are what are some of the warning signs for both candidates in this leaked currency polling, because the league was quite extensive in the end, the poster I mean like
there is some evidence in the post story that the China attacks could work. They found
that. I think fifty one percent of voters and seventy swings dates: Blaine China, the most for the corona virus, twenty four percent blame Trump, so that you know
you could come by now we're trying to call Biden. South
on China may be put something together. I also think that there is clear evidence that people dont know a lot about Biden. Besides that he was Obama's
bp- and that goes a long way, but you still risk getting defines,
there is also overwhelmingly think the Trump is not your average politician, they think of him, as an outsider,
normally, I would think. Oh, that's really beneficial for Trump. I wonder if your average politician starts.
Pretty good in the middle of a botched pandemic,
you know. Also this whole thing where they're trying to suggested Biden is, is senile like forty five per se,
saw. Biden is more weaken, confused forty four percent side trump. That way so it sets basically split means
along partisan line. So you know Smithy a silly. I love that question I live.
A question like whose more weaken confused it's a ties are: that's our baseline. So that's so that's our baseline. I do think like basically the pole from the Aren kind of gives you the contours of the race, and it's pretty simple.
Tromp, as an outsider, better at getting things done, better handling the economy. Voters say:
and better understands average people more honest, more compassionate com and committed to making healthcare more affordable.
So you see it like,
by anyone's unintelligence incompetence and yet, which is something for a strategy based around his mental acuity right
so you sort of sea that, like in there, you see, Biden, strengths and you see trump strengths, and then you see their weaknesses, and you see that that's gonna sort of b the access is why you see people like run on
Daniel Nehru roaming, the Daniel.
say that you know Trump built the economy and we're gonna need him to bring the economy back because their whole idea, you make the krona virus, something that happened to Trump, not something by his failures. Trumped it too.
Yeah, I will just end on reiterating Tommy's point
in any other race. The fact that trumpet,
It is not your average politician and binding is seen as a normal. Typical politician would be like the biggest flashing red light for me, if I was in the Biden campaign,
I do think like there never gonna make job. I'm not your average politician on the button campaign in
always gonna be viewed a little bit as as an outsider, and so I think what you mean into if you're the Biden campaign is we
pride, not your average politician for four years and look where got us.
Would you want someone in this moment who is competent? Who is intelligent? Who was carrying, who was honest, there's gonna be there and help guide the country through one
its worst periods- and I imagine that they'll probably lean into that to to sort of make that contrast between the two candidates work
for Joe Biden potted meat,
I brought you by noon noon. There's no question! Twenty is piling on the stress. You don't have to commence
between the election and everything
else in the news it's hard to make time for yourself.
With anxiety, rising healthy habits have been found.
By the wayside
it is also hard to not make time for yourself. That's one of the hardest of better say.
When there is so much going on it's hard to recommend to yourself whether its losing weight or getting fit for good
numerous here to help you stay on track, whatever your fitness and health goals are what
support, helped you thrive and reach your goals, just thrown it out there for discussion
I mean for me. Are you now routine trying to cook healthier, making sure that
Ronan doesn't dumb suggests
second dessert while knew how
you track where you eat and learn about you're eating patterns, so presumably second dessert would be filed right away in there.
Yeah, you can't you gotta, go into Newman, say: hey NOME, like
it's a skinny cow on the box spots. That's not magic noon,
what do I? What do I do my life back
You buy the chalk chips to make chuck chip cookies, but you just cut off a little
corner of the bag and slowly take some and then
we'll bag is gone and then you can't make the cookies themselves. You save a lot of cows on you, know, butter and x Y gotta.
Those cake house, no butter no way
just chips. You know what
be with all of this.
Well, I knew no can help new get help
You know it seamlessly integrates into your life and the trust you to make better choices. You
even have junk food as long as you forgive yourself, that's part of new tools for
than yourself move is not a diet. It's a healthy and easy stick to a way of life
It helps you understand the psychology behind better decision making through features like tracking steps and recommending healthy recipes
want to build healthy habits that last sign of today at noon. Dot com such crooked. You get, sir, with the free trial just visit, numa dot com site.
Crooked, that's an oh, oh, am dotcom, slash, crooked.
Let's talk more about eurobonds campaign on Friday, the former vice premier
addressed the tower red allegations for the first time during it.
Give you a morning Joe make a Brzezinski
ask him: if he had sexually assaulted, red and Biden said quote: no, it is not true, I am saying unequivocally it never ever happened and it didn't. It never happened.
He then went on to say quote from the very
beginning I've said believing women means taking the woman's claimed seriously when she steps forward and then vet it look into it. That's true in this case as well,
We have a right to be heard and the pressure rigorously investigate claims they make I'll. Always uphold that principle, but in the end, in every case, the truth is what matters, and in this case the truth is, the claims are
false Tommy, what you think of the interview in the accompanying medium peace, that by road so look- I mean the interview it was painful to watch. I mean look similar
somewhat disclosure to to you in the EU and they offer
We obviously work the Obama Abiden administration. I dont, need money to behind after Bernie dropped out knows clear, is going to be the nominee there's also like pretty critical of the campaign during the primary, not because I thought he was a bad or cruel person. In my experience, what was was the opposite that he could be a demanding boss, but you know you're at all these stories about him going
but his way to be kind of people rights, or I mean that's just a way of saying it's. Why
I reading these allegations has been really hard,
you know you guys, probably heard the interview I did with Amanda Market back in early April, and I want to talk to her because she had really done a lot of work to that and report on these pieces and I'm glad we got to this next phase, where people got to hear from Biden directly
on camera. You know in extensive inner. You might. My hope is that it's not the last interview and that he asked about the allegations again. He continues to address them directly. There was
questions that he wasn't asked that I would have liked to have to have heard him address, because it is a complicated story. I think we're in a talk, more
but this in a second. I am a little surprised that
conversation was so focused on this document
that May or may not be in various archives, either in the Senate or the University of Delaware, Guitar Reed file. That actually does it mention the ascent.
The allegations. I'm worried that there might be this big reporting process or fight over
an archive that may or may not include a document that doesn't actually prove the core allegation, but you know, look
I'm glad he was on camera
dressing it. It didn't make it
easier to watch. You know that was my thou, my feeling love it would you think so. There's there's Roy there's, like I think, to positive,
he's here right either the allegation terror readers, alleging is true or the allegation tarried is alleging is false. If the allegation is true, I hope we will see more corroboration from reporting. Ah more
journalism, more efforts to sort of fine backing for her claim
If the allegation is false,
I do not know what you are buying should be saying differently than what he said to me get and Joe. If he, if he believes the allegation is false,
if what he is saying is to the best of his knowledge unequivocally true, now
I think he's saying the right things right. He is putting it in the context of what he believes about in general of hearing
locations of abuse, hearing women out making sure the stories are told. I think he consistently in that conversation said I'm not going to question Tara, Reid's motivations, I'm not going to attack Tara Reid, I'm not going to go after her, I'm going to simply state what I believe to be true in the facts of this case,
and in a for some one in the position that he's in I'm not sure what he should be doing differently. There is this quest.
About opening up the records, but you know too Tommy's
what we now know based on a p and a few other interviews, terror red has given over the past couple months it it does not seem
that even if there is a document, it will allege harassment, let alone
salt Wretch, she said that there may be a document that references for being a comfortable and references, some kind of retaliation.
Among the things we know, we know that at a certain point, she was in charge
the internet and then she wasn't anymore right and then she left the job.
Like beyond. That has been very hard to drill down exactly what happened in part, because her story has shifted several times throughout this process. That's not to say that this that that that her,
Legation shouldn't be treated seriously. It's not to say that allegation is true, but you know I'm looking
Isn't just thinking like how
Has Biden reacted to this. Is he reacting in a way
that I believe, is appropriate. If he's going to deny the allegation- and I think I think that they are doing their best with a really really difficult-
moral situation in a really difficult political situation, yet
I agree with you. I got any there's a temptation when you know
you have an interview with fighting and enter. Probably the same thing will happen if Tara Reid doesn't interview which she was supposed to do on on Fox. Reportedly on Sunday she canceled she said she's going to do. One of the future is going to see a judge, the performance of the interview, but it really does come down to
at least on the Biden friend like if the allegations are false than your right than by said what he needed to say, and I don't know what else he would have done right. Like bright cavanaugh women
for the Senate and started screaming and yelling and and crying and acute.
Every one of a plot against him, in a universe, political enemies out to get him and all that bullshit and and then stonewalled and investigation, every step of the way Joe Biden denied the allegations said that women should still be heard it should come forward, but that allegation should be vetted pointed to the reporting and then sort of welcomed, more investigation and and and wanted to get all these records released. So I'm not sure what more you do at that point, we
talk about these records you in his medium peace by rote, there's a clear, critical part of the.
That can be verified. The former staffer said she filed a complaint back nineteen. Eighty three. She does not have a record of this
the papers. From my Senate years that I donated to the University of Delaware do not contain personnel files. There's only one place. A complaint, this kind could be the national archives
requesting the secretary of the Senate. Ask the archives to identify any record of the complaint. She allegedly file.
And make available to the press any such document
so then a number of outlets and individuals, including the New York Times in Washington, Post editorial boards.
Called on binding to open its records at the University of Delaware anyway, even though that's not where personnel complaints like that go
and then this morning the Secretary of the Senate wrote back and said they cannot legally
close any records if they in fact exist so
where did I don't wear this- leaves us like it?
sort of my view that the times imposed editorial boards, like I don T, quite understand, calling for opening up
records in Delaware where just personnel records wooden exists there. Anyway,
and it does seem to me, like you know, of a fishing expedition that if a bunch of reporters just look at all of his Delaware papers, it's just going to be fodder for a whole bunch of things that are one hundred percent unrelated to anything that has to do with her or you or any kind of
full harassment or assault allegations? Yeah news item. I spent a lot of time reading in digging into this in preparation for my inner
he was with Amanda, and you know it just you drove home how hard can be followed this story and how precise you need to be because really there's two differ.
Allegations. There's an allegation of harassment, sexual harassment, while working in the office and in some food
up interviews. Territory has specifically said you was
the people around Biden,
it's a her or or created this environment writer. That's one distinct thing
the newer allegation of sexual assaults, and I think it's holding those two things as stink, ISM
Orton, because there is also a lot of evidence of corroboration of people. She told about these incidents at the time, but it's very hard to keep clear and
reporting whether we are specifically talking about corroboration at the time of the harassment allegations or the assault allegations, and I bring that up.
Because now that the New York Times and other editorial pages have started this bigger,
conversation about an archive
that may or may not contain a document that wouldn't prove the assault allegation, even if it were there
in it just feels lay, or maybe the harassment allegation even well. Look I yet book that might be
not so sexual harassment, but it might describe things that the EU would, I think, be currently believe our sexual health and rights. I dont want to get right on that actual, but I do think, like it's probably not helpful for those who really want to get to the bottom of what evidence exists where
to spark a bigger conversation about an archive that is likely to contain a bill introductions and-
speeches and almost nothing about personnel and that we should probably focus our efforts on digging into other places. But, as you know, John, like you now, you have people
coming on saying. Well, we can't even give over these these records if they exist, so it it just sets up
a challenging, pretend
We unsatisfying effort to find facts. It may be that you speak to the fact that its very hard to prove disprove something that may or may not happened in nineteen. Eighty, three, the eye. I do think that I think that's right. You look at this also
It's a heated political environment and one lesson I think of and I'm not comparing
the very clear that I'm not comparing this allegation to the substance of these issues, but just the police,
go conversation around them. You look at Benghazi
look at emails and one of the great cudgels that Republicans had through both of those controversies was not a set of facts. They were trying to get
two but the accusation that there was some rare.
Of war of information. Some key place yet uncovered some set of facts that are being hidden, that they could press for. A guy
again and again and again for years? We need the truth on by Gaza. We need the truth about the emails
it was a sort of an on an unwinnable fight right because there you know Hilary goes before the committee and speaks for twelve hours. That's not good
enough, they release a bunch of the emails, that's not good enough, and so what what I think that the it we republic,
operatives aided by editorial boards, creating a servant, unwinnable political power,
problem of the answer is somewhere deep and some archive, I do think, is really politically dangerous and worth putting in the context of a campaign against someone, Donald Trump, who has released nothing given no inch and faces what two dozen credible allegation
If a restaurant and misconduct and abuse women has launched endless broadsides against for years and years and years, yeah and and in a time you pointed this out too. But what makes this difficult is as an end, its it's been difficult for. A lot of the reporters have done a lot of in the serious investigation into the story is the fact that there are these two different allegations and sort of two different story: she's told about these different allegations, and it's not simply that for a while, she talked about the sexual harassment and then decided to start talking about an alleged assault as well. It's that, while she was talking about the sexual harassment part of it, she said
that seem to contradict the possibility that there was also a sexual assault? The ape he reported over the weekend that when they interview tar, read in April of twenty nineteen- and she told me
but by rubbing her shoulders and playing with her hair. She also said this about Biden quote. I wasn't
heard of him that he was going to take me in a rumour anything. It wasn't that kind of five, and so it is. I think it's hard for a lot of these
leaders who may have interviewed her and twenty nineteen and are now interviewing again just a sort of uncover,
what's going on here, especially since, as has also been reported, she told other people in her life for or other people say she told them throughout her life. The story about the assault as well right. So there's a lot of different things. Go on get elected just to be clear, like I
do you know all of the facts, even if they are incredibly painful and not in an and show the worst to be true, where I want to know all of the facts, and I do not in any way criticise tear read for telling her son
hurry in the time and place of her choosing. I do not blame her anyway
what I'm trying to talk about is the fact that, like as you search through the reporting you,
end up having to read between the lines of what the journalist trying to get to them.
The fact is saying about corroboration
the time we're a conversation with terror reads neighbour or a conversation with terror. Reads, brother in it just gets very complicated and
You know, like all of us, I think, are doing the best like we're illiberal back ass. We brought this up several times now. Bees we care about.
Allegations in and figuring out that the truth as best we can
and I want to make sure, like my hope, is that
media narrative will be focused on digging into other the places where those facts can be found and not become a
like love a bunch like an email style,
expedition they get hijacked by the Trump campaign to open up a bunch of notes.
About policy from the eighties that Biden put forward, that they then weapon eyes yeah. I guess it work
one more thing about this, an end without speaking to the specifically you know, I've watched Ronan report on a huge number of sir
sure harassment allegation, sexual abuse allegations, rape allegations. He has done it against Democrats. He has done it against Republicans, a bunch of different prominent people and what I have just learned in observing him over time is. It is incredibly difficult, painstaking work that involves an incredible amount of time, which is why there has been real,
value in the way that he's done this reporting in taking a story and unpacking it really carefully over time. Gathering a huge amount of information, huge amount of corroborating information, all the witnesses he could pass
the gather, and then you tell the story from beginning to end in one place so that everyone has an end, then fact check it right
and then everyone has an incredibly strong, consistent basis of fact from which to draw conclusions. Think about next step.
And are they one additional way in which this has been incredibly difficult for people of good faith to process? Is that the allegation
has been meted out through various publications over the course of a long period of time and which introduced
inconsistencies, confusions questions about specific uses of words, timelines
operation witnesses, and all of that means we're having an incredibly important discussion. The stakes are total in terms of the election and I think we're doing it from a from a from a broad and inconsistent and confused set of facts which just makes it all the more
It is like Rebecca tracers peace on the terror tarried allegations that you and Indian talked about last week was so good and so well done in so prescient because it was just unbelievably painful over
We can see aggression Whittemore, who is an assault, survivor, have to take a bunch of questions about
Reed's allegations and whether she believes Joe Biden and by talk about how its reopening wounds and like that she's doesn't feel actually being allowed to move on. For the conversation
You know it is sad and- and you know one of the one of the things a lot of that that their Rebecca Traced- her has been talking about that. A lot of really smart
talk and talk about is how these allegations ultimately fall to women to process women to deal with women too.
Splain women to figure out and adjusted
so how difficult and complicated and sad situation this is for people who want to
who believe two things out aid. We must, if he Donald Trump and be, we must address these allegations and take the really seriously you agree.
On the other big development into buying campaign. Last week, with the announcement of evading committee for potential vice presidential picks, it press the button
that would be finished by July. The former,
president said there looking seriously at over a dozen women and the rumoured shortlist said to include Elizabeth, worn, Amy Club, Kamel Harris Stacy,
Abrams and Gretchen Whittemore among others. We
we'll speculate endlessly about this process from now lie. This conversation will just be the tip of the iceberg. Tommy, let's start by talking about how much we
we can separate out sort of substance governing and politics. How much does the VP pick matter and in what ways so, starting with governing, I mean
it's not a secret- they Joe Biden is older than a lot of presidential rang right, like he is openly
animated about how maybe he is more of a transition period to a new generation of politicians. So in that sense, the person that you choose to be her vice president in to govern with you for at least
for years- is enormously important, far more important than then pass vice presidential picks, because
I don't know that we ve ever heard of a presidential candidate talk
a one term pledge like that-
maybe I'm wrong, but I am not. I can't remember one so
in that sense, like its enormously significant, I also
think that a lot of people will look at these picks and try to you
then, as tv is for how Biden may or may not govern right like if you choose
Elizabeth Warren, that is
signal to a lot of progressive that progressive ideas will be heard on it,
daily basis, maybe hourly basis in the oval office that there will be.
When, in that oval office fighting for them in a way
They really like than you
have some of the more moderate voices and you might hear progressive group.
Feel like there a little less enthused right like any.
Michael Avatar is seen as more moderate voice, who won't necessarily be fighting for some of the things they care about
Basically, I think it's probably one of the most over thought. Decisions in the history of politics. Ever
You know what I mean like I just. I can't imagine anyone on this list or not on this list that would win or lose you, the the presidency. I think there was a pole over the week,
where I think, a quarter of voters really care about the VP pay
Maybe, on the margins ray you can win or lose states like Gretchen Whittemore gets you
over the hump in
again, that's worth it
the big deal. That's an important state that we have to win.
Stacy Abrams is able to.
Spire, you, african, american voters and young voters in turn them out and bigger numbers and twenty. Sixteen that's a big deal. That'll get you over them
maybe when, but I.
Impossible to predict the future so that ultimately binding it have to do it. Obama did, which is just talk to a bunch of folks figure out who is the most comfortable with and make a choice and they'll
those people in advance and then try to make sure that there is nothing like politically explosive in their history. That hasn't come out yet, and I dont think that it will by Adam FUCK, you know
I don't really know how you do that relationship or like vibe check who, with the with the vice presidential candidate over Zoom, that really sucks. I can't believe I have to do that.
Yeah, what are you going out,
it's so nice to be talking about this- is sort of like it's like from another time, like a man who knows the b, is it going to be member get part on the cover of the posts? Yes, you know like that that they will get that in the reports that it that carry pics Gebhardt and he did not take part in so you know that one thing than that I
think about it. Basically, like you know, to Tommy's point right: it's really just sort of our kind of
in terms of how it affects the raises sort of a good enough.
Proposition right. If you just pick some anew, everyone generally recognizes as being up to the job it sort of stops being as big a story
you know, and then you have if you pick some, unlike Sarah pale Andrey pick some unlike Dan Cloud, all of a sudden that becomes a really bad story, you that you pick some of them.
Not be up for the job. I mean all the people
You mentioned are serious national figures.
They Stacy Abrams is the the closest to someone who has a question mark in terms of national politics, but she makes up for any questions about that with her intelligence, grit and clear competence in her ability to come
run organizations and and and and do more politics. You never met in terms of growth
Whittemore Michigan, I very vividly remember, being told what, because TIM Kane delivers Virginia without Virgin with Virginia Hilary client can't lose. So I'm also I'm always a little bit sceptical of the like state play. That said, what a fun list
what if I don't know what have unlimited women, I doing
from, like you know, there's not a ton of evidence on this, but just from a political sign standpoint like
There is not that much evidence that sort of pecking, someone from a state or a region, necessarily helps you all that much in that state or region. Of course,
who knows like. I said it's a very limited amount of evidence for this, but I do think like
what you resume of it. Basically, this is a peck with them does not at
up side, but there's a lot of potential for a dance. I tell us air Pailin asleep, but I think that I think that binds age and the fact that we're in the middle of a pandemic in an african crisis does make governing sort of more of a factor than it usually is. Can this person step into
role of preside states and, I think also after the primary we had for Democrats. It really is the major decision that Joe Biden will make before November. That sort of gives us an indication of where he sees the party going and where he will lead the party both during his.
Currency and potentially for his successor, and on that note there were two recent polls of democratic voters from data for progress and CBS.
I'm show that Elizabeth Warrant is the top choice among Democrats by double digit margins, followed by common Harris was second in both poles
and then Stacy Abrams and Amy Clover shower roughly tied for third now. Some of this is possibly due to the fact that it was before and of that list is the candidate with the highest name
The right of any one morning when that was true in the primary is well after Biden Bernie. She was number three in terms of name identification among both democratic voters and all voters
But what did you ever think about those poles and how much value is there in poles of only Democrats further
yeah I mean look at my reaction- was was similar to yours, in that I assumed it had a lot to do with name. I d me like that there is there
value, in the sense that if you can pick a vp they'd excites the democratic base,
and makes them more likely to donate to you volunteer
for you vote, for you tell there
and you know, like all the things that we encourage people to do on a daily basis. That's really good, but you know like
does it help you went to general election in it?
no way, I'm not sure. Yet, I'm I'm pretty skeptical
all the pulling I get. My people do it. It's very fond of all these things. It's fun to talk about. I would be happy with.
Any of those candidates. I'm sort of you now agnostic, almost but am
I just have the sovereign right of here out of my answer to the girl. Whatever it's her, I mean like Joe Biden, bided fucking, that somebody out of wages,
They have the story right, like pulling of democratic enthusiasm, tells you will this person excite people and turn them out of the new, the other half like? How does this person do with the independence you'll need?
EL, the winning coalition. It's also justice system out of a job sang.
It is always. The case then went up when it when a winner presidential nominee chooses a vice president there in many ways, choosing someone that they believe could be the standard bearer of the party, but like
is never more true than right here right. This is this. Is some
new. Based on what Joe Biden saying, I think actually has been really smart and daft about how he has introduced this idea of I'm only gonna service.
Turn, because I'm old in a way that has a real time optimistic bend to it right, I'm a transition, candidate and transition to a younger generation.
Is choosing potentially the democratic nominee in four years. That's up incredibly big decision bigger than most president's ever do.
Because eight years along time right, you don't,
What can happen after eight years, but for years this person, if this person-
Gonna be the nominee and twenty twenty four? If God,
we live in that want to live in that world and knock on things like they're gonna have to start campaigning two years into
vice president. So this is somebody who starts off as the presumptive, basically on their way to being the presumptive nominee, thought experiment
Hillary Clinton wins the primary. She picks brought about
as our VP, she wins the general because financial crisis, member that real bad Windsor.
Election with Braga bombers. Vp Obama runs against Trump
kicks the shit out of him.
Not here now
for the world's now John for use specific,
Will you be working directly
for John love it in that speech. Writing I used to think about tat.
Here's my profile now, which examined the question is how long, but I have been working for download it and how long would download it I've been working since Hilary would have been impeached on day. Ten. That's right! That's right and hold it: oh by the way, tat you and
Tromp only runs jump only runs because of the racial black. What backlash to having our first by president? So really you know it's it's a fun hypothetical! It's a real slighter situation and I say we jump through until their dinosaurs. You know
People are going through the process in Canada always say this, but I think it is. Germany will be true this time. You know you should pick the person that you feel most comfortable with the person who you believe can step into the role
President Edit, and it usually will come down
to that, though, were also.
Using an election where it's more important than ever before, to win right like winning, is governed by a huge consideration. So I think what thereby campaign will obviously do is forget just about these democratic voter. Poles go into these swing. States
and start pulling Biden and some of these nominees and just to make sure like say by, like someone are,
make sure that nominee that potential VP nominee doesn't lose you any motors. Does it make things worse right? If she doesn't, if it's either makes no difference or it makes a positive difference, then you pick who you like right. You pick who you believe in, and you pick who's going to be the best president. I think that's that's pretty clear
I am sure they will do a ton of polling, you now it'll be fine Warren verses, Trump Pence in Wisconsin by Harris
as you know, and I know so on and so forth and they'll do this a lot between now and yet as having a little moment of fantasy of imagining Elizabeth Warrant debating my pants cinemas, going to think about that for like an hour just
have it just a habit? Modestly, it's like it's like Elizabeth,
Debating my pants, every Camelot do a great job lazy, Abraham Abrams Dreamy. Just though those maddening those three debating my pants is a fun debate, a thing he would. You would short out like a West World robot doing the Reagan impression, newbie, incredible! Ok, when we come back
I have my interview with astern goals, be
America is broadly by policy genius, an insurance marketplace policy genius talks a lot about how unpredictable the future is. That's why insurance exists in the first place
right now. Life is unpredictable and scary, but there
brains out there telling you how we're all in this together instead
This policy juices top three unpredictably positive things from April great Erika, one thousands
dogs and cats across America have found new homes. That's true as true that is good. Some to
as a beggar now in fresh bread is the best smell ever love it. We know you're you're, a beggar now.
Did you have in seeking more to the M sausage path
says. I have not yet graduated to baking. Ok, well, well, we'll be on the lookout for that
people across the world are acting with kindness, compassion and heroism. That is greater.
There's no graceful subway here, but positive unions and insurance marketplace and there's a big demand for life insurance right now,
Bosnia's I'd want to applaud you for two lover: writing this very. There did a tiny is opening in this needle that,
threat. It I mean just what up
what a transition, what an effort to consistently crush it Pasadena's they compare, quotes on the top life insurance companies in one place. It just takes a few minutes to compare quotes from the top and chairs to find your best price. Once you apply, the policygenius team will handle all the paperwork and red tape for free. Isn't that's nice believe me
Yeah you want, you want them to handle it. So if you wanted to many people looking to buy life insurance right now, but you're not sure where to start had to policy genius, dot, com policy genius will finding the best rate and handle the process completely. You could stop worrying about life insurance and get back to begging your bread adopting a fairy friend which is being
find inconsiderate human. I am now joined by the former chair of the White House counsel of economic advisers. Current professor at the University of Chicago's boost school of business.
Friend, asked and goals be has gone. Goes we
don't. You still owe me money, probably
Fatima seems right just as the start just so people now you and I first hour
together on the Obama campaign as the world is falling apart during the financial crisis, you helped me translate. Economists speak about morgue
back securities and credit default swaps into simple English, which I always appreciated, and in the campaign of it
we had this emergency bourbon that we pull them
whenever the economy looked really bad, so my first question is
much bourbon. Should we be drinking right now
bye by our all measure. If it is, the market dropped,
fiber set in a day. We were
oh, that's terrible than if it was ten percent. We were like we re rules, you go get drunk. What are we going to do with ourselves
We would add many bourbon days on this. One.
But we gotta stop meeting like this John and say now
we have a agent it's getting.
It's getting worse, I mean
Do you expect this? To get? I mean, I feel if you like, projections are all over the place. Obviously the administration's are quite Sonny
seemingly impossibly so, and
and you know other people talking about depression levels of unemployment, which you know we could. We could see fairly sooner. We might already be in what it. What do you think I am using a meal? Terrible.
In terms of just what the measure conditions are, I think, if you lie
Do these unemployment insurance filings, that's the worst,
Is probably the worst five weeks in the history of the american job market? What we ve just been through, we never had anything like that, the most
that the unemployment rate has gone up in an entire year, was in the depression and is about eight percent,
next unemployment numbers that come out where likely gonna jump,
something like twelve percent in a month so by
that measure. It's gonna, be
unbelievable. Worse than anything, we saw two thousand aid, two thousand nine, which was terrifying: worse,
they then than any
one of the great depression, the only
thing that we got a hope,
actually somewhat optimistic on this front. Is.
It's not a regular business cycle,
so you're gonna see numbers like you, ve never seen before. But the thing that's terror.
Flying about an unemployment rate of ten percent or twelve percent? Is that in a normal boom that can
Maybe one to one and a half points per year.
If this is a regular business cycle, we're gonna be a decade or more before we're back to anything like what we were before, but I actually don't think that that's true I mean if you, if you
Could I just say poof and have a vaccine, I kind of like the economy could go right back to where it was previously covered, and
So our only dance now is this dance of had a
keep it to be temporary. How do we not lead people get evicted or not be able
put food on the table or have their utilities cut off and and and all of that type of stuff small business have to liquidate.
Bearing in mind that we got some sectors like
crews lines or in sport stadiums that
probably gonna, be a while before they come back. Their shock is maybe not as temporary as the others, so that,
along version to say I think, he's gonna be real bad, but it might be able to improve
least somewhat faster than it does before. So the trump folks keep talking about a v shaped.
Economic recovery? A lot of other economists are talking about? A? U shaped economic recovery can use it to translate that for us and and and where do you follow that spectrum?
ok v shape is, it goes down
comes right back up and new shape
down, and I got up stumbles
the bottom and then it comes up, and then the EL shape is like a waiver that does not a recovery and then
we're going to argue about greek letters in Arabic, stripped of what's the shape of the recovery. I think the right way to think about it is, if you want to see,
in income terms. Are GDP rather than unemployment the next corps
It is likely to be the worst number we have ever had in the history of the data.
Be minus twenty five percent minus thirty percent at an annual rate, which is unreal,
we ve never seen anything like that, even for a quarter and then the next quarter, it might come back, let's say robustly two plus ten,
but the load. The figures, if you go minus thirty and then plus ten,
Is I got an idea like mother, it's like well, why don't you stop saved me so much money, you're being a blemish. Ah, if we were going to brag about plus ten and we're still
when he points under water. It is not going to feel like plus ten, I dont think
The unemployment still gonna be double digit, now,
ten percent even after dad come back, and that's because it's the comebacks in percent terms, out of the basement and end its its harder to fall to injury from the basement window entities,
from firms alive or for so you are too great peace. The New York Times over the weekend about how critical it is for the government to maintain public support during an economic crisis. What worries you most about the path the trumpet ministration has taken so far. I look I'd say
There's one practical worry and there's one worry,
spirit that has been with us from the very beginning, and that is
start without one that is.
Absolutely no one can deny that the president has wanted to say this is in serious from the beginning. They can try to go.
Back and scrambled now? As we all know, there was a day when he said it.
The pandemic, or he said that nobody from their flight. You come here, but the fact is an every.
I'm sure they ve wanted less testing less documentation of the presence of this disease at
regions juncture. They said how
the economy, but how many people are gonna die. How fast as the economy gonna come back, the President has cancer
certainly been on the side of its not that serious. You can go back to work, we have fourteen cases and also be zero. People are finding its no worse than the flew all that comes from a place in his mind. That way.
To minimize it and look. I understand that that
kind of the authoritarian playbook. That was the same mentality that the Chinese add in rule on when the thing began and that's a deeply troubling, because
Does it undermines and blows up the credibility of the United States government and of the President's Pacific
you know better than anybody. John. We spent
so much time,
on the words used by the president that that he would
beat it when he made a statement. A presidential statement was taken
the highest level of seriousness and the best that can be said for the president on on his worst days is we'll pay no attention to
but he's waiting and pay no attention to what is saying he doesn't really mean it, and I can't under
and that world and terrifies me, because what now
So we come to the moment where,
I think it is safe for some groups to start going back up.
And the President says on Wednesday, everything is safe, ok, well, the thing is half
the country does not believe the words
if he says to on Tuesday we think it's open and the fire
Industries can go back to work, people won't go back
that undermining girl a bit credibility is really seriously problematic. The other is on the practical,
We just don't have enough to looking. There are their
economies around the world that have now got them.
I out of locked down and our recovery places
Like Korea places like Germany places like Taiwan soon to be,
Australia, New Zealand, a couple others they did enough testing
The only people that have to go out of commission are the people who have the disease, and if you don't test, you can't
that you can reopened the doors but you're just gonna get infected again and areas. Gonna have to go back in and lock the doors, so
Imagine you're back in your old wine has job the fantastic new democratic president and lets say there are no political constraints in terms of what could pass Congress. What do you do next in terms of economic relief? And you can also include sort of non legislative action
to locate the first, I always say the number one rule of virus economics is the best thing you can do for the economy is slow, the rate a spread of the virus. Ok, so I would throw almost
unlimited money at the fighting
that war on the virus with a massive ramp testing.
A massive increase in medical equipment- and I would
subsidized- you saw in New York for good
Apple Governor Cuomo, asked retired metal,
those personnel to come back. Any
thousands of volunteers out with
federal government should be subsidizing that everywhere we will give you
Signing bonus will waive all you won't have any social security penalty won't be any payroll DEC.
Come out of retirement for a short period to help us, we should be trying
expanded my world. The supply curve availed dear ok.
Non economic relief. Once you
are doing that to slow the spread of the virus, I think the pre,
Venting people from getting evicted and having their gas shut off and preventing small
business from liquidating from temporary shocks. All of that super important. It is gonna, keep costing money because it's not regular stimulus is not meant to get us growing is just meant to prevent liquidation, and then I
I think that this area of money to the states we saw at first hand in two thousand nine. What happened
when you have a bad recession and the state coffers get completely depleted? Is there
or have bowels budget rules that forced them to raise taxes in the face of the downturn or else cut spending. By firing the state workers,
and it magnified the downturn in two thousand and nine, and it is about to ebb
salute we magnify this downturn, if this federal government does not step in to try to prevent that from happening. So I would. I would definitely work on that side too, when you think about some of these proposals that sort of go, maybe beyond the pay tax project protection programme
from some more progressive members at say, like let's do what they're doing in Europe in some countries in Europe and just literally pay companies to make sure that all of their workers are on
hair all and that they do not eating on the payroll. Look it's kind of interesting. I
heart I'm a little more sympathetic with that approach than the one we took. We took that the approach, let's up the unemployment benefits,
when peep for people who lose their jobs, and that's that
we will deliver relief
I'm a little more sympathetic to the idea that you,
could use the money paid directly to the IMF,
to keep them on the payroll, because I think that way you don't break the employment relationship
video it into the practical thing of like? Well, how are they gonna ray
fine, their workers, when this is over, all of it
depends on how long it lass. So in sympathy,
to the view that do it through unemployment insurance.
Was number one weed.
I hear of we don't have as well set up a system to be able to do their part of that is
what how many employees do you have? How will we know of your keeping them on the payroll or you're too, taking the money, and yet a for executive compensation or something and
and to be because we have that system. We can get this out the door more quickly and that is important, so
So I am sympathetic with the way we we have done it.
decide, I guess Aver for crews lines. Should the taxpayer be paying billions of dollars to
keep crews lines open.
Ay they're, not even headquarters in the United States, rainy plus
their payroll or not. Americans should we be pay?
you, keep them open when there's no demand for crews lines. Questions like that
become a harder under the european system. The european system is great if this is a short term thing
where everybody goes home, have a furlough taken nap, combat
Is that my god, you have no idea what happened while you were asleep. Please come back to work. Ok, not that is perfect for would pay you to keep you on the payroll,
If what has happened is several into
Please have the mostly shut down and those people needing
find new jobs. Then the EU
I system is, I think, the better way to do so.
Go back in our current political hell escape. What do you think the most
Morton things for the Democrats in Congress to fight for in the next economic relief bill. What would you five foreign and why.
Having a strictly economic side? I think this money to the states is gonna, be critically
important and it is already turned into this red state. Blue stay football. I think that the
Like I say, the money will always run out if it's just relief.
The money will always run out. So we're going to be back to the coffers knee.
Thing to say there are: a bunch of people cannot put
food on the table there, a bunch of small businesses that are about to liquidate, and this thing is
a snowball, and so I think money for that for in that style has got to be on the table
can't really get away from the get the money out there
fighting the spread of the virus. I mean that's the if we could sliced aid and trade volumes of testing tracing medical equipment,
doing research. If what, if it's true that all of us
be Dan is over. Our bows could
slow the rate of spread of the virus by fifty percent
That alone might be enough to allow us to come to get a bunch of people going back to work and an I don't. I don't think that it was clear
easy it were Mitt Romney didn't come up with it up. There were lotta Democrat,
to who also had the idea, but bonus pay for critical workers. I hope they go fight for that. Yet
that that should aid should include medical, but it should be
we're glued tons of more and better Gorman. It's crazy delivery box for liveries ample. We ve got people working at these at these,
the resolution? We don't live without them doing that and they should get bonuses
so unsurprisingly Mcconnell. Another Republicans have cited concern over the deficit as a reason to hold up the next corona virus relief bill. You know not not as a big surprise, coming from those guys but
to what extent should concerns about the deficit factor into policy making over the course of this crisis
they're all absolutely zero, that that is a joke,
as I say, the
Ass thing, you want Dwight Eisenhower to be thinking in June of nineteen. Forty four is
Hey? Let's take half the boats and mouth there
because I didn't have a pay for for the landing on on.
Today beaches, I mean come on revenue neutrality,
in a war is the last thing that you need that the debt is specifically for spreading out cost like this, which are critical to the survival
of the country, and on top of that, if.
Who trillion dollar unpaid for tax God by George W Bush.
Trillion dollar, maybe a little over one trillion, plus
who trillion dollar unpaid for war plus eight
who trillion dollar Trump Tax, God, all of which happened on for and with no run up in the end,
straight of the United States did not convince you. Let the market right
now convince you that debt compared
of the? U S? Government is vastly an excess of where we are now. The problem of deficits is not that they create a fiscal crisis for the country
it's that, ultimately, you do have to pay back the mind and soul.
We will be doing by running that now is we
have higher taxes or a big,
share of what we spend our government money on in the future, going to interest payments for
that then we would be comfortable with, but
think of world war. Two corrected for inflation, we're war to cost over four trillion
dollars and the economy was a lot smaller than and the debt went way up.
And the way they paid back is they re.
Taxes, especially on high income people, but they raise taxes post war
we grew and those two things
together. What brought the debt to GDP ratio down over time? We should like to hear the Republicans saying
first, that we need. We had two trillion dollars to spend on tax, got no problem there
We have almost we
trillion dollars to spend on the cares act. Five
hundred billion for big business leverage five
trillion through lending at the FED
We have money for the p.
Bp Programme, the supposed to go to small business and real estate, investment trusts and big companies and friends of the president. I got the money and they
and when they say will you know what we need to do now is make sure that everyone can eat
and they say. Oh, my god, we don't have the money for that. What about the deficit?
When will we kidding what are they even talking about classic classic
last question: you talked about sort of a lot of the money that were a the policy were passing now is about relief and not necessary,
They stimulus. What as we as we look ahead towards sort of long term economic stimulus.
What are some of your sort of favorite ideas, infrastructure, green infrastructure, like what were or do you think it's important how important? I think it is. I look. I think those are both infrastructure and green.
Structure and health infrastructure. All of that is is super important. I don't
In my mind, I don't
policies that with immediate term stimulus
I'm absolutely for big expansion of infrastructure and have been for twenty years
That said, we learned in two thousand nine when we pass the stimulus that the infrastructure parts
Even the most shovel ready of those projects take a little longer than then the advocates want subdue.
Right on the notion that it
Let's say six months from now were passed. The peak of the virus.
And we are actively wanting to get girl to come back. My
favoured outcome is: have the federal government pay the states to to,
do sales tax holidays because you only get the tax got
You spend the money and then the other
They just go down the list from two thousand nine of what stuff had the highest bang for the back. There were massive numbers and length of reports some put out,
but Berlin Council Economic advisers and some by others going through all the different
Poland of the stimulus. What had high bank for the buck and what did there are a lot of direct government programmes that had very high thing for the buck in terms of of stimulus
Austin goes. We thank you so much for Africa on POD save America. It was good talk, any man, it's always pledges.
Thanks to us for joining us today and I'll see you guys later,
My lawyer resume coasts
Kyle segment is our sounded junior thanks to turn you so many to Katy Long row.
Pod, save America is a product of cricket media. The executive board
there is Michael Martinez are assisting producer. Is Jordan Waller? It's me,
in edited by Andrew Chadwick Carl Sagan? Is our sound engineer things to tell you something?
it long, roman, long, Roman, Caroline Dimitrios, Caroline resting Annalisa Gutierrez for production support into our digital team.
Larger cone normal Conan yell freed in my look him who film and upload these episodes is videos every week.
Transcript generated on 2020-05-05.