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The President steps up his efforts to blame China for the coronavirus, the Trump campaign is divided over its re-election message, Joe Biden responds to Tara Reade’s allegations, and the Vice Presidential selection process begins. Then Austan Goolsbee, one of Obama’s top economic advisors, talks to Jon F. about how to dig ourselves out of this crisis.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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I welcome the POD save America, I'm John Fibre, I'm John Love, it Tommy Door as part of my conversation with one of President Obama's top economic advisers, Ostend ghouls be about how to dig. Out of this mess. For that will talk about how the president is trying to rewrite the history of this pandemic and will die one of the challenges that both the Trump and Biden campaigns are facing, with just six months to go until election day. Whoop, the first love it. How is the show this week? Great love it or leave it We had at Helms Who are we had a libyan? Nigeria grew big, get Gatt we'd Olivia not see who talked about covering Trump from the briefing room. We played a game with pride
at home, and then I did the monologue on an app called O. Where are you oh random strangers and then tell them a joke. And The good news is: I saw zero penises I've gotta chat roulette, but also that it is a way that is. I chat roulette with your regulations, the bad news? Is, I didn't see any penises sorrows, on a joke. The first signs of looks like an episode title also, if you're looking for a fund break from the news check out hollow shame, crickets pocket about some of the biggest scandals and sports history and there lay two part episode Rachel and Retina talk about the career of meadow world peace. The best football player, formerly known as RON our test. While I haven't thought about that a long time, but did all malice at the palace, it's great one Listen to me. Listen subscribed to howl of shame now on Apple pie, Cast Spotify or anywhere. You listened upon, it will say We say that those hollow shame upsets pair nicely with:
Jordan Documentary, which is the only thing I look forward to on a weekly basis. Now there you go there, let's get to the news as the United States Meares seventy five. And deaths and well over a million cases of covert nineteen. The president preparing a national testing and contacts tracing strategy that would allow many of us to safely leave our homes. He is not. Instead, He is working overtime to try to blame. His shitty responds to the pandemic on China during Fox NEWS Town Hall on Sunday night Trump echoed Secretary of state, might pompiers assertion that the corona virus originate in a war on laboratory. Saying quote, I think made a horrible mistake and they didn't want to admit it so me Pompiers any seen enormous evidence that this is true, last night, the Associated Press, gotta Department of Homeland Security Report, that said chinese leaders quote intentionally concealed severity of the pandemic in order to stock up on medical supplies for themselves. First question:
How do we know whether to believe any of these be enormous? and they re like a huge by me. So I think if it helps to just talk about how the blame China story has evolved over time, writes a virgin, one was the Tom cotton version and some others on the far right that suggested the corona virus was created by the Chinese is by a weapon, and I think pretty much. Every scientists agree that that is nonsense. They believe this virus jump from above to a few men, are about to another animal and then to humans. We had a lot of deadly viruses from that's like a ball, and Sars will make sense. That's why I like the one it will on collection both from wild bats and they do research on them, they want to find the next corona virus like covered version too, is pale and Trump saying scientists DE. I will hunt instead of biology, were studying obeyed some out of escaped from the lad. Maybe a technician got it. Maybe there was an improper waste disposal who knows so with when it comes to that.
Theory. Unfortunately it is not an absurd one. In twenty fifty the? U S. Military accidentally shift live anthrax bores, instead of dead ones to other labs, protesting whoops big mistake in two thousand for Chinese. Searchers, researching Sars got infected because of their work, and then we also know that the washing post report, leak State department cables that warrant. I think twenty eighteen, that the one lab had poor safety standards is worth noting that the tribe administration did nothing to address the security concerns that they were cabling back and so version three of the of the story of the plane. China story is that China can Will the severity of this virus to stock up on medical supplies themselves before the rest of us? Could here's the key point show us some fucking ever right because so far we have seen nothing Trump said it is my opinion that they made stake and they tried to cover it up
ABC Pompiers said China has a history of infecting the world? What does that mean? He also where, with a fine gross the grossing say he also had to admit that the intelligence community hasn't yet concluded that this virus leaked from a lab and they're all these reports that the White House is directing the intelligence community defined links between the virus in the lab and that's dangerous, because when you're cherry King intelligence to suggest say: Iraq has WMD you can to a bad place right which collect all the evidence then come to a conclusion so I'm not seeing any of this to defend the chinese government, but if Concern is really a lab safety and there are a lot of reasons to be concerned. As we just discussed. This would be good time to increase global cooperation and trust with the Chinese introduced at a dress that underlying concern, but for Trump about raging on China, it's about domestic politics, it's about pretending, their tough. I'm sheet in paying when we all know the Trump was saying
She had done a great job, so that this is just it is spent. And, like I hope the press will say to them. Show us the evidence before we parent your claims bees, we just went through this time. With customs alimony, where they said that he was. This Iranian general was an imminent threat. I he was gonna take out U S, service members on bases in Iraq, and so they assassinated him and then they abandon that protects a couple weeks later. So we know that they lie about intelligence, all the time so love it. Say: the virus did start in a chinese lab and the Chinese did conceal the severity of the outbreak. How does that change trumps cope, ability for the? U S response, because you know that I'm just pointed out Trump receive warnings that the how mob had massive security issues there are a two questions: one: what mistakes to try to make around corrective arse right? Did it Can only come from a lab, did they can? he'll the spread to protect themselves or because they hope they could do
What that without an international scorn or or or controversy, and then there is the question of. Why are they doing this? You know? in the middle of a fire, you don't learn to another fire fighter and say you really fucked up this fire I want you to know when this fires out I'm coming for you I'm in a blame. You I'm gonna, make sure you pay for this fire, not that bad, I have to back to the draft, and so like We know why they're doing this job is not doing this because he has concerns about international lab safety. He's not doing this because He wants to make sure that China is held responsible in the long term for their poor, prank says here, no he's doing it because he wants a scapegoat, he needs a scapegoat and he cares more about protein in his own image in the fighting of this virus, then doing what's best to combat this virus right now, because what time is it is true. If there is a problem in the lab safety in China. Will that will be
We want to work with them. On that basis, we want to talk about what went wrong. What are the best practices be to implement to make sure something like this doesn't happen again, but that's never what they're talking about it's about punishment? It's about record retribution. It is about having a talking point. There was a a memo that went out last week or the week before last or six months ago. I don't know because time to stop, but he had said that base glee: a republican strategies was advising Republicans when Mr Corona virus dont defend Trump blamed. China rewrite dont, get stuck on defending trumps, bad decisions and bad behaviour focus on China as they That's a winning issue and Trump understands that Tom Continent stands that Mitch, Mcconnell You're stands that and so that's why pop Hale understands that it is illegal. Pretty simple me. Ground here, which is blame Trump for believing China, because, like we warnings did Donald Trump have from our own intelligence agencies that China,
was possibly concealing the severity of the outbreak, even Joe Biden in a debate worn trump, not to listen to the Chinese and everything they saying about this. You know also Transnational Security Council hadn't. Agents in January, that predicted the virus would spread throughout the U S and they were suggesting people keeping people home. Shutting down cities in the winter, something Trump refused, to do until March, and then yet all kinds of warning Alex Aser help and you can serve as a secretary said to Trump. This is gonna, be horrible. This could be a great pandemic trump call him alarmists. So it's like. Let me he wants it. Just put the focus on China, and part of this is there's like a parallel track. Where he's trying to get people to forget that he ignored warning after warning. All all trump says when you ask him either at these press briefings or in these interviews about this,
Like I had the travel ban, I put the travel ban in place from China and he acts like as soon as he put the travel ban in place. Everything went Swimming Leeson ran right here. It is like his. His position is a bit like China. Is a dangerous menace and ve defeated me right. I thought he had thought yours, but you are tough on China that you were strongly tough and tough. We strong on China, endless like the any democratic go down. This rabbit whole, but we want is a city in a province in China and there's a lot of reporting that suggests like to the extent that there was a government cover up early on. It was the local government and then what and the feds came in from Beijing and they saw how badly their handle they crack down. The kick the shit out of them made the and so look there. A lab accident in Sarasota Florida because of some loose regulations from random and this? I think we would all be pretty pissed off if the entire country was blamed for it and then there's just there's a better way to manage China if you really think their use huge threat, the to the planet,
the better way to deal with actual lab safety concerns I also do things like a lot of this sort of foreign Does he minded senators. Democratic centres have an asked about this and I think they all had pretty reasonable responses which are there are. Serious questions to be asked about what happened and and China's behaviour in the outbreak of this pandemic. But that's not why they're asking the question- and we should remember that scapegoating that the debates on their scapegoating China, because there, by their own performance. I do think I do think people are striking the right balance so wash unopposed, ported that senior officials are beginning to explore proposals for punishing or demanding financial compensation from China for its handling of the pandemic Tommy. What are the potential consequences of punishing China for hiding or downplaying the severity of this pandemic?
I'm lucky a couple of things like one? It would be useful to be correct before we start alleging that the Chinese are somehow responsible in some way for creating a world ending pandemic so on top of that they own, I think, a trillion dollars of? U S: Treasury bonds, that if they started dumping knows it could create something just for our own economy for interest rates over here, we have to work with them. In any number of places at the G20 at the U N, to get things done like I don't. I don't think we want to escalate a fight with a country that is potentially going to be the place where covered vaccines are manufactured. One They, like there's a lot of reasons you could see. This spinning out, bad direction and again that's not a suggestion that we coddled China Are we hide the truth? It's just that this, this war of words, stupid and self defeating, and it's not backed up with an actual strategy where we are going to our allies, whether its regionally with Japan and South Korea and others or to Europe?
we're bringing all those groups together as a way to push back on China collectively we're just pissing off everybody at once, and seeing where the chip plant lets us is the goal. What is the role like? What are you're trying to achieve by creating punishment around the outbreak of the virus against China. What is your actual agenda? As a too because you're so worried about another pandemic that you're trying to disincentives bad practices around future diseases is that is that really the goal lieutenant struck concessions on other issues, around trade or an intellectual property are trying to just win a political fight at home. But what is the goal of having this fight with? not right now, and I mean no one explain what that goal is no one threat I was going to say, like into till your point: love it about your knowledge about putting out the fire like end users, Tommy China could develop a vaccine
very easily? We are also very dependent on China for pharmaceuticals met lot of medical equipment comes from China right, like as we are battling a global pandemic, we need more global cooperation than ever before right and we can wait, wait until after the pandemics over and try to sort things out about who cause what whose fault who's responsible, but as we As we are in a race for a vaccine that could save millions of lives, you probably want to cooperate with everyone else in the world. Right now I mean The? U S like one one. I think that the U S under Trop has left a gaping hole for international leadership. China's tried to ensure that whole ok and its and in a moment where China's reputation is faltering, where people are looking to blame in China, for this virus and trying to try to make up for that by sharing health supplies and trying to prove that they belong sort of as this international leader on the world stage. America, it could either step up and demonstrate its it's his store.
Role in leading a global effort, but because Trump is unable to Do that? Don't think that's going to happen! The only option! The only option is to try to tear China down to try to to try to make sure China doesn't supplant the United States on the world stage, because they don't know how to do what the United States used to do in a crisis was an agency to jump, let's start building the gigantic factory we will need to manufacture a vaccine at some point before our pissing off the countries that have that capability today. That would be my yeah yeah good good So we are now less than six months out from election day. I want to talk about the challenges the both campaigns are facing. Let's start with the Trump campaign, there is one imposed story over the weekend that the term folks are still struggling to find a message. Now that we're headed toward depression levels of unemployment, and their own internal Republic and National Committee Polling shows the president trailing Joe Biden in the battleground states. Forty five to forty eight percent from Strategy
told the posts that there are only shot at winning is driving up, binds unfavourable numbers, but there s divided over just how to do that Tommy. What are they struggling with the earth without? What's the internal debate, that debate is basically do we use a bazooka or a flame thrower to scorch the earth? I mean They know, that's are their only path to victory is destroying Joe Biden. They want to drive down enthusiasm among Democrats among young people, of suburban women, and the question is how Washington Post reported that some people in the campaign, like Brad PAR scale, the campaign, you're essentially want to say Joe Biden is senile. Anything like Donald Trump himself is on border that strategy, because he is calling him sleepy Joe constantly suggests that Biden doesn't write his own statements or tweets. They talk about him, hiding Bobby, washing post reported that tallying Conway in particular is worried. That Trump is our losing ground the seniors and they worry that mocking binds age could exacerbate that problem. I would respectfully suggest to colleagues that the bigger
problem with senior that they might have is rushing to reopen the economy and thus maybe killing them. I would do it that diversity, but you're there, debating the strategy about whether to haul Biden, time China any of the super packs and others are put big money behind that and so will see if it works. It seems like a bit more of a bank shot to me so whatever they're gonna. Do it's gonna, be pretty grass, I mean just an aside here: there are a folks on the left, including in the progressive media, who were circulating. Edited videos and just asserting the Joe Biden was in cognitive decline, and I would just to congratulate all of them for helping lay the groundwork for these attacks, even though we well seen no evidence that Joe Biden is in cognitive decline in any way. Reportedly, when he jumped on the phone with Donald Trump Trop remarked, own team product. I didn't seem senile at all, so you know work area about its like be twitter isn't real life. No, I mean, I think, that raising
raising mental fitness in a race against Donald Trump. For president, is quite a strategy in its I would that is well know it's interesting in their peace, You know the other debate there. Having is does Trump wait until the convention or not to start going hard negative, which is funny that, like now basis, I'm not going hard negative amid I guess he doesn't spend like everyday tweeting about Joe Biden like you did. Hillary Clinton, so I guess, like more, could be to come. There also when a debate like what can adds to run when in this Apparently, there spending a lot of money promoting trumps response to the pandemic, which most people think is just the sort of please Trump, because they don't think that's gonna do any good because they don't think that's really going to resonate with people. It is, and this in a really good way, so he's got interesting watching them just sort of like struggle for response, what it one Trump adviser told the post quote one of them. Since we want in twenty. Sixteen is because so many people hated Hillary Clinton, I'm not sure people hate Biden that much
What did you think about him? And how would you compare sort of the twenty sixteen dynamics with twenty twenty yet first of all, I welcome and Conway you know putting on her white gloves and saying, like I'm, not comfortable with us on that unease as what Brad, Scalini's hooligans these hooligans are trying to do by. I honestly, I think it's bad strategy, but it just makes me uncomfortable so yeah Kay Colleen, I do wonder if a little bit was just about saying to sort of sending a red flag All the outside group saying destroyed Joe Biden. Now we need millions of dollars on the air to destroy Joe Biden a million dollars praising Trump on the corona virus responses, what they ve put behind it. That will not help because that, like, if you ever. If a million dollars of ads praising tromp go up against hundreds of we of dollars of free media about how, he's bundled it. I dont think that move the needle it interesting that
Hilary Biden comparison because you know we talked about this- One of the reasons Joe Biden is the nominee. Is that in a fractured me environments. It is very difficult for someone to gain the kind of reputation and name I d and kind of deep knowledge that Joe Biden has accused from the he's from for when we made people, s famous is Joe Biden, so was Hillary Clinton the difference in Dubai Harry Glinda that Hillary Clinton stepped into this role is democratic. Germany, with thirty years of attacks against her that had really made her a kind of a vilified figure may think. The greatest trick, Republicans ever pulled was pretending to like her for the four years she was secretary of state, so so Zobeide comes in buying comes in with that inherit advantage in their finding. It really really difficult to chip away at that, and I think that the pandemic makes their job that much harder. Because they're kind of relentless media coverage Donald Trump relies on to poison.
Well, it's just not available to him right now, Brad Pascal one of these pieces points out himself that that Donald Trump is not really attacking Joe Biden from the briefing room and and and Donald Trump without that podium without that rally podium to kind of start, throwing these there's he's reduced to twitter, but we ve been living with Donald Trump tweets now for four years, and they just don't carry the punch. They once did. Yeah I mean, I think, there's there's two major differences. One is the candidates, as you point out, an Hilary areas had thirty years of attacks that you brought to the raise. The other big one is the political dynamics of the race. Donald Trump is not the challenger anymore Donald Trump, as the incumbent, as Challenger Donald Trump- is very good at you know: trying to burn down the barn and talk about everything that politicians in Washington and government are fucking up now he is the government Middle of the worst crisis of our lifetime and he is fucking up and it is very like he know.
And his team knows that they have to make this this race about Joe Biden. It is very hard to make a race about Joe Biden about any democratic challenger. At a time where the incumbent is presiding, were the worst crisis. If our lifetime listeners in any hard to make it anything but a referendum, will try, but it's hard to do. This was in the times, but I just want to read this because it was such a. It sets its an obvious come moment for Trump in the phone call last week, for instance, MR trumped, demanded to know how it was possible that a campaign that had been projecting, strengthen invincibility for two years was pulling behind. The candidate he viewed as extremely weak and, at the moment, largely invisible the answer. According to nearly a dozen people, they talk to a dozen people to prove this lies in the factors both on the president's control, such as the economic downturn and the spread of the corona virus, as well as those in his control, namely his playing down of the corona virus for several weeks, followed by his own performance in the briefing room, it's like so
Why have your numbers gone down? Why are you in trouble? There is a great depression, there's a massive pandemic and you ve manage it not that complicated the best. The best part of that story was, he was so mad at Brad PAR Scales campaign manager when he showed bad polling and swing states that he threatened to sue them and to sue S, campaign, picture per backbone, and then the guy that come back a couple days later from it Mansion in tamper with a new positive cut, to show everything and improve them in a passionate shut up. It's like, of course, no wonder he play down the krona. Cyprus responds the guy, can't look at evidence that bad for him without lashing out. I also I, although do just I just love the idea that terms looking at these polling and end, is the hit like his presence. It is on the line there. So many people dead and sick the countries in crisis and he's like I gotta- get back pay from this
add per scale. Guy he's not earning that paycheck. I ivy. I assume it was the kind of thing raise that I could see like lashing out. It does, but it still it still pretty amazing, pretty amazing. What are what are some of the warning signs for both candidates in this leaked currency polling, because the league was quite extensive in the end, the poster I mean like there is some evidence in the post story that the China attacks could work. They found that. I think fifty one percent of voters and seventy swings dates: Blaine China, the most for the corona virus, twenty four percent blame Trump, so that you know you could come by now we're trying to call Biden. South on China may be put something together. I also think that there is clear evidence that people dont know a lot about Biden. Besides that he was Obama's bp- and that goes a long way, but you still risk getting defines, there is also overwhelmingly think the Trump is not your average politician, they think of him, as an outsider,
normally, I would think. Oh, that's really beneficial for Trump. I wonder if your average politician starts. Pretty good in the middle of a botched pandemic, you know. Also this whole thing where they're trying to suggested Biden is, is senile like forty five per se, saw. Biden is more weaken, confused forty four percent side trump. That way so it sets basically split means along partisan line. So you know Smithy a silly. I love that question I live. A question like whose more weaken confused it's a ties are: that's our baseline. So that's so that's our baseline. I do think like basically the pole from the Aren kind of gives you the contours of the race, and it's pretty simple. Tromp, as an outsider, better at getting things done, better handling the economy. Voters say: and better understands average people more honest, more compassionate com and committed to making healthcare more affordable. So you see it like, by anyone's unintelligence incompetence and yet, which is something for a strategy based around his mental acuity right
so you sort of sea that, like in there, you see, Biden, strengths and you see trump strengths, and then you see their weaknesses, and you see that that's gonna sort of b the access is why you see people like run on Daniel Nehru roaming, the Daniel. Television say that you know Trump built the economy and we're gonna need him to bring the economy back because their whole idea, you make the krona virus, something that happened to Trump, not something by his failures. Trumped it too. Yeah, I will just end on reiterating Tommy's point in any other race. The fact that trumpet, It is not your average politician and binding is seen as a normal. Typical politician would be like the biggest flashing red light for me, if I was in the Biden campaign, I do think like there never gonna make job. I'm not your average politician on the button campaign in always gonna be viewed a little bit as as an outsider, and so I think what you mean into if you're the Biden campaign is we pride, not your average politician for four years and look where got us.
Would you want someone in this moment who is competent? Who is intelligent? Who was carrying, who was honest, there's gonna be there and help guide the country through one its worst periods- and I imagine that they'll probably lean into that to to sort of make that contrast between the two candidates work for Joe Biden potted meat, I brought you by noon noon. There's no question! Twenty is piling on the stress. You don't have to commence between the election and everything else in the news it's hard to make time for yourself. With anxiety, rising healthy habits have been found. By the wayside it is also hard to not make time for yourself. That's one of the hardest of better say. When there is so much going on it's hard to recommend to yourself whether its losing weight or getting fit for good
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ask him: if he had sexually assaulted, red and Biden said quote: no, it is not true, I am saying unequivocally it never ever happened and it didn't. It never happened. He then went on to say quote from the very beginning I've said believing women means taking the woman's claimed seriously when she steps forward and then vet it look into it. That's true in this case as well, We have a right to be heard and the pressure rigorously investigate claims they make I'll. Always uphold that principle, but in the end, in every case, the truth is what matters, and in this case the truth is, the claims are false Tommy, what you think of the interview in the accompanying medium peace, that by road so look- I mean the interview it was painful to watch. I mean look similar somewhat disclosure to to you in the EU and they offer
We obviously work the Obama Abiden administration. I dont, need money to behind after Bernie dropped out knows clear, is going to be the nominee there's also like pretty critical of the campaign during the primary, not because I thought he was a bad or cruel person. In my experience, what was was the opposite that he could be a demanding boss, but you know you're at all these stories about him going but his way to be kind of people rights, or I mean that's just a way of saying it's. Why I reading these allegations has been really hard, you know you guys, probably heard the interview I did with Amanda Market back in early April, and I want to talk to her because she had really done a lot of work to that and report on these pieces and I'm glad we got to this next phase, where people got to hear from Biden directly on camera. You know in extensive inner. You might. My hope is that it's not the last interview and that he asked about the allegations again. He continues to address them directly. There was
questions that he wasn't asked that I would have liked to have to have heard him address, because it is a complicated story. I think we're in a talk, more but this in a second. I am a little surprised that conversation was so focused on this document that May or may not be in various archives, either in the Senate or the University of Delaware, Guitar Reed file. That actually does it mention the ascent. The allegations. I'm worried that there might be this big reporting process or fight over an archive that may or may not include a document that doesn't actually prove the core allegation, but you know, look I'm glad he was on camera dressing it. It didn't make it easier to watch. You know that was my thou, my feeling love it would you think so. There's there's Roy there's, like I think, to positive,
he's here right either the allegation terror readers, alleging is true or the allegation tarried is alleging is false. If the allegation is true, I hope we will see more corroboration from reporting. Ah more journalism, more efforts to sort of fine backing for her claim If the allegation is false, I do not know what you are buying should be saying differently than what he said to me get and Joe. If he, if he believes the allegation is false, if what he is saying is to the best of his knowledge unequivocally true, now I think he's saying the right things right. He is putting it in the context of what he believes about in general of hearing
locations of abuse, hearing women out making sure the stories are told. I think he consistently in that conversation said I'm not going to question Tara, Reid's motivations, I'm not going to attack Tara Reid, I'm not going to go after her, I'm going to simply state what I believe to be true in the facts of this case, and in a for some one in the position that he's in I'm not sure what he should be doing differently. There is this quest. About opening up the records, but you know too Tommy's what we now know based on a p and a few other interviews, terror red has given over the past couple months it it does not seem that even if there is a document, it will allege harassment, let alone salt Wretch, she said that there may be a document that references for being a comfortable and references, some kind of retaliation. Among the things we know, we know that at a certain point, she was in charge the internet and then she wasn't anymore right and then she left the job.
Like beyond. That has been very hard to drill down exactly what happened in part, because her story has shifted several times throughout this process. That's not to say that this that that that her, Legation shouldn't be treated seriously. It's not to say that allegation is true, but you know I'm looking Isn't just thinking like how Has Biden reacted to this. Is he reacting in a way that I believe, is appropriate. If he's going to deny the allegation- and I think I think that they are doing their best with a really really difficult- moral situation in a really difficult political situation, yet I agree with you. I got any there's a temptation when you know you have an interview with fighting and enter. Probably the same thing will happen if Tara Reid doesn't interview which she was supposed to do on on Fox. Reportedly on Sunday she canceled she said she's going to do. One of the future is going to see a judge, the performance of the interview, but it really does come down to
at least on the Biden friend like if the allegations are false than your right than by said what he needed to say, and I don't know what else he would have done right. Like bright cavanaugh women for the Senate and started screaming and yelling and and crying and acute. Every one of a plot against him, in a universe, political enemies out to get him and all that bullshit and and then stonewalled and investigation, every step of the way Joe Biden denied the allegations said that women should still be heard it should come forward, but that allegation should be vetted pointed to the reporting and then sort of welcomed, more investigation and and and wanted to get all these records released. So I'm not sure what more you do at that point, we talk about these records you in his medium peace by rote, there's a clear, critical part of the. That can be verified. The former staffer said she filed a complaint back nineteen. Eighty three. She does not have a record of this
the papers. From my Senate years that I donated to the University of Delaware do not contain personnel files. There's only one place. A complaint, this kind could be the national archives requesting the secretary of the Senate. Ask the archives to identify any record of the complaint. She allegedly file. And make available to the press any such document so then a number of outlets and individuals, including the New York Times in Washington, Post editorial boards. Called on binding to open its records at the University of Delaware anyway, even though that's not where personnel complaints like that go and then this morning the Secretary of the Senate wrote back and said they cannot legally close any records if they in fact exist so where did I don't wear this- leaves us like it? sort of my view that the times imposed editorial boards, like I don T, quite understand, calling for opening up records in Delaware where just personnel records wooden exists there. Anyway,
and it does seem to me, like you know, of a fishing expedition that if a bunch of reporters just look at all of his Delaware papers, it's just going to be fodder for a whole bunch of things that are one hundred percent unrelated to anything that has to do with her or you or any kind of full harassment or assault allegations? Yeah news item. I spent a lot of time reading in digging into this in preparation for my inner he was with Amanda, and you know it just you drove home how hard can be followed this story and how precise you need to be because really there's two differ. Allegations. There's an allegation of harassment, sexual harassment, while working in the office and in some food up interviews. Territory has specifically said you was the people around Biden, it's a her or or created this environment writer. That's one distinct thing the newer allegation of sexual assaults, and I think it's holding those two things as stink, ISM
Orton, because there is also a lot of evidence of corroboration of people. She told about these incidents at the time, but it's very hard to keep clear and reporting whether we are specifically talking about corroboration at the time of the harassment allegations or the assault allegations, and I bring that up. Because now that the New York Times and other editorial pages have started this bigger, conversation about an archive that may or may not contain a document that wouldn't prove the assault allegation, even if it were there in it just feels lay, or maybe the harassment allegation even well. Look I yet book that might be not so sexual harassment, but it might describe things that the EU would, I think, be currently believe our sexual health and rights. I dont want to get right on that actual, but I do think, like it's probably not helpful for those who really want to get to the bottom of what evidence exists where
to spark a bigger conversation about an archive that is likely to contain a bill introductions and- speeches and almost nothing about personnel and that we should probably focus our efforts on digging into other places. But, as you know, John, like you now, you have people coming on saying. Well, we can't even give over these these records if they exist, so it it just sets up a challenging, pretend We unsatisfying effort to find facts. It may be that you speak to the fact that its very hard to prove disprove something that may or may not happened in nineteen. Eighty, three, the eye. I do think that I think that's right. You look at this also It's a heated political environment and one lesson I think of and I'm not comparing the very clear that I'm not comparing this allegation to the substance of these issues, but just the police, go conversation around them. You look at Benghazi
look at emails and one of the great cudgels that Republicans had through both of those controversies was not a set of facts. They were trying to get two but the accusation that there was some rare. Of war of information. Some key place yet uncovered some set of facts that are being hidden, that they could press for. A guy again and again and again for years? We need the truth on by Gaza. We need the truth about the emails it was a sort of an on an unwinnable fight right because there you know Hilary goes before the committee and speaks for twelve hours. That's not good enough, they release a bunch of the emails, that's not good enough, and so what what I think that the it we republic, operatives aided by editorial boards, creating a servant, unwinnable political power,
problem of the answer is somewhere deep and some archive, I do think, is really politically dangerous and worth putting in the context of a campaign against someone, Donald Trump, who has released nothing given no inch and faces what two dozen credible allegation If a restaurant and misconduct and abuse women has launched endless broadsides against for years and years and years, yeah and and in a time you pointed this out too. But what makes this difficult is as an end, its it's been difficult for. A lot of the reporters have done a lot of in the serious investigation into the story is the fact that there are these two different allegations and sort of two different story: she's told about these different allegations, and it's not simply that for a while, she talked about the sexual harassment and then decided to start talking about an alleged assault as well. It's that, while she was talking about the sexual harassment part of it, she said
that seem to contradict the possibility that there was also a sexual assault? The ape he reported over the weekend that when they interview tar, read in April of twenty nineteen- and she told me but by rubbing her shoulders and playing with her hair. She also said this about Biden quote. I wasn't heard of him that he was going to take me in a rumour anything. It wasn't that kind of five, and so it is. I think it's hard for a lot of these leaders who may have interviewed her and twenty nineteen and are now interviewing again just a sort of uncover, what's going on here, especially since, as has also been reported, she told other people in her life for or other people say she told them throughout her life. The story about the assault as well right. So there's a lot of different things. Go on get elected just to be clear, like I
do you know all of the facts, even if they are incredibly painful and not in an and show the worst to be true, where I want to know all of the facts, and I do not in any way criticise tear read for telling her son hurry in the time and place of her choosing. I do not blame her anyway what I'm trying to talk about is the fact that, like as you search through the reporting you, end up having to read between the lines of what the journalist trying to get to them. The fact is saying about corroboration the time we're a conversation with terror reads neighbour or a conversation with terror. Reads, brother in it just gets very complicated and You know, like all of us, I think, are doing the best like we're illiberal back ass. We brought this up several times now. Bees we care about. Allegations in and figuring out that the truth as best we can and I want to make sure, like my hope, is that
media narrative will be focused on digging into other the places where those facts can be found and not become a like love a bunch like an email style, expedition they get hijacked by the Trump campaign to open up a bunch of notes. About policy from the eighties that Biden put forward, that they then weapon eyes yeah. I guess it work one more thing about this, an end without speaking to the specifically you know, I've watched Ronan report on a huge number of sir
sure harassment allegation, sexual abuse allegations, rape allegations. He has done it against Democrats. He has done it against Republicans, a bunch of different prominent people and what I have just learned in observing him over time is. It is incredibly difficult, painstaking work that involves an incredible amount of time, which is why there has been real, value in the way that he's done this reporting in taking a story and unpacking it really carefully over time. Gathering a huge amount of information, huge amount of corroborating information, all the witnesses he could pass the gather, and then you tell the story from beginning to end in one place so that everyone has an end, then fact check it right and then everyone has an incredibly strong, consistent basis of fact from which to draw conclusions. Think about next step. And are they one additional way in which this has been incredibly difficult for people of good faith to process? Is that the allegation
has been meted out through various publications over the course of a long period of time and which introduced inconsistencies, confusions questions about specific uses of words, timelines operation witnesses, and all of that means we're having an incredibly important discussion. The stakes are total in terms of the election and I think we're doing it from a from a from a broad and inconsistent and confused set of facts which just makes it all the more It is like Rebecca tracers peace on the terror tarried allegations that you and Indian talked about last week was so good and so well done in so prescient because it was just unbelievably painful over We can see aggression Whittemore, who is an assault, survivor, have to take a bunch of questions about Reed's allegations and whether she believes Joe Biden and by talk about how its reopening wounds and like that she's doesn't feel actually being allowed to move on. For the conversation
You know it is sad and- and you know one of the one of the things a lot of that that their Rebecca Traced- her has been talking about that. A lot of really smart talk and talk about is how these allegations ultimately fall to women to process women to deal with women too. Splain women to figure out and adjusted so how difficult and complicated and sad situation this is for people who want to who believe two things out aid. We must, if he Donald Trump and be, we must address these allegations and take the really seriously you agree. On the other big development into buying campaign. Last week, with the announcement of evading committee for potential vice presidential picks, it press the button that would be finished by July. The former, president said there looking seriously at over a dozen women and the rumoured shortlist said to include Elizabeth, worn, Amy Club, Kamel Harris Stacy, Abrams and Gretchen Whittemore among others. We
we'll speculate endlessly about this process from now lie. This conversation will just be the tip of the iceberg. Tommy, let's start by talking about how much we we can separate out sort of substance governing and politics. How much does the VP pick matter and in what ways so, starting with governing, I mean it's not a secret- they Joe Biden is older than a lot of presidential rang right, like he is openly animated about how maybe he is more of a transition period to a new generation of politicians. So in that sense, the person that you choose to be her vice president in to govern with you for at least for years- is enormously important, far more important than then pass vice presidential picks, because I don't know that we ve ever heard of a presidential candidate talk a one term pledge like that- maybe I'm wrong, but I am not. I can't remember one so in that sense, like its enormously significant, I also
think that a lot of people will look at these picks and try to you then, as tv is for how Biden may or may not govern right like if you choose Elizabeth Warren, that is signal to a lot of progressive that progressive ideas will be heard on it, daily basis, maybe hourly basis in the oval office that there will be. When, in that oval office fighting for them in a way They really like than you have some of the more moderate voices and you might hear progressive group. Feel like there a little less enthused right like any. Michael Avatar is seen as more moderate voice, who won't necessarily be fighting for some of the things they care about Basically, I think it's probably one of the most over thought. Decisions in the history of politics. Ever You know what I mean like I just. I can't imagine anyone on this list or not on this list that would win or lose you, the the presidency. I think there was a pole over the week,
where I think, a quarter of voters really care about the VP pay Maybe, on the margins ray you can win or lose states like Gretchen Whittemore gets you over the hump in again, that's worth it the big deal. That's an important state that we have to win. Stacy Abrams is able to. Spire, you, african, american voters and young voters in turn them out and bigger numbers and twenty. Sixteen that's a big deal. That'll get you over them maybe when, but I. Impossible to predict the future so that ultimately binding it have to do it. Obama did, which is just talk to a bunch of folks figure out who is the most comfortable with and make a choice and they'll those people in advance and then try to make sure that there is nothing like politically explosive in their history. That hasn't come out yet, and I dont think that it will by Adam FUCK, you know I don't really know how you do that relationship or like vibe check who, with the with the vice presidential candidate over Zoom, that really sucks. I can't believe I have to do that. Yeah, what are you going out,
it's so nice to be talking about this- is sort of like it's like from another time, like a man who knows the b, is it going to be member get part on the cover of the posts? Yes, you know like that that they will get that in the reports that it that carry pics Gebhardt and he did not take part in so you know that one thing than that I think about it. Basically, like you know, to Tommy's point right: it's really just sort of our kind of in terms of how it affects the raises sort of a good enough. Proposition right. If you just pick some anew, everyone generally recognizes as being up to the job it sort of stops being as big a story you know, and then you have if you pick some, unlike Sarah pale Andrey pick some unlike Dan Cloud, all of a sudden that becomes a really bad story, you that you pick some of them. Not be up for the job. I mean all the people You mentioned are serious national figures.
They Stacy Abrams is the the closest to someone who has a question mark in terms of national politics, but she makes up for any questions about that with her intelligence, grit and clear competence in her ability to come run organizations and and and and do more politics. You never met in terms of growth Whittemore Michigan, I very vividly remember, being told what, because TIM Kane delivers Virginia without Virgin with Virginia Hilary client can't lose. So I'm also I'm always a little bit sceptical of the like state play. That said, what a fun list what if I don't know what have unlimited women, I doing from, like you know, there's not a ton of evidence on this, but just from a political sign standpoint like There is not that much evidence that sort of pecking, someone from a state or a region, necessarily helps you all that much in that state or region. Of course, who knows like. I said it's a very limited amount of evidence for this, but I do think like
what you resume of it. Basically, this is a peck with them does not at up side, but there's a lot of potential for a dance. I tell us air Pailin asleep, but I think that I think that binds age and the fact that we're in the middle of a pandemic in an african crisis does make governing sort of more of a factor than it usually is. Can this person step into role of preside states and, I think also after the primary we had for Democrats. It really is the major decision that Joe Biden will make before November. That sort of gives us an indication of where he sees the party going and where he will lead the party both during his. Currency and potentially for his successor, and on that note there were two recent polls of democratic voters from data for progress and CBS.
I'm show that Elizabeth Warrant is the top choice among Democrats by double digit margins, followed by common Harris was second in both poles and then Stacy Abrams and Amy Clover shower roughly tied for third now. Some of this is possibly due to the fact that it was before and of that list is the candidate with the highest name The right of any one morning when that was true in the primary is well after Biden Bernie. She was number three in terms of name identification among both democratic voters and all voters But what did you ever think about those poles and how much value is there in poles of only Democrats further yeah I mean look at my reaction- was was similar to yours, in that I assumed it had a lot to do with name. I d me like that there is there value, in the sense that if you can pick a vp they'd excites the democratic base, and makes them more likely to donate to you volunteer for you vote, for you tell there
and you know, like all the things that we encourage people to do on a daily basis. That's really good, but you know like does it help you went to general election in it? no way, I'm not sure. Yet, I'm I'm pretty skeptical all the pulling I get. My people do it. It's very fond of all these things. It's fun to talk about. I would be happy with. Any of those candidates. I'm sort of you now agnostic, almost but am I just have the sovereign right of here out of my answer to the girl. Whatever it's her, I mean like Joe Biden, bided fucking, that somebody out of wages, They have the story right, like pulling of democratic enthusiasm, tells you will this person excite people and turn them out of the new, the other half like? How does this person do with the independence you'll need? EL, the winning coalition. It's also justice system out of a job sang.
It is always. The case then went up when it when a winner presidential nominee chooses a vice president there in many ways, choosing someone that they believe could be the standard bearer of the party, but like is never more true than right here right. This is this. Is some new. Based on what Joe Biden saying, I think actually has been really smart and daft about how he has introduced this idea of I'm only gonna service. Turn, because I'm old in a way that has a real time optimistic bend to it right, I'm a transition, candidate and transition to a younger generation. Is choosing potentially the democratic nominee in four years. That's up incredibly big decision bigger than most president's ever do. Because eight years along time right, you don't, What can happen after eight years, but for years this person, if this person- Gonna be the nominee and twenty twenty four? If God, we live in that want to live in that world and knock on things like they're gonna have to start campaigning two years into vice president. So this is somebody who starts off as the presumptive, basically on their way to being the presumptive nominee, thought experiment Hillary Clinton wins the primary. She picks brought about
as our VP, she wins the general because financial crisis, member that real bad Windsor. Election with Braga bombers. Vp Obama runs against Trump kicks the shit out of him. Not here now for the world's now John for use specific, Will you be working directly for John love it in that speech. Writing I used to think about tat. Here's my profile now, which examined the question is how long, but I have been working for download it and how long would download it I've been working since Hilary would have been impeached on day. Ten. That's right! That's right and hold it: oh by the way, tat you and Tromp only runs jump only runs because of the racial black. What backlash to having our first by president? So really you know it's it's a fun hypothetical! It's a real slighter situation and I say we jump through until their dinosaurs. You know
People are going through the process in Canada always say this, but I think it is. Germany will be true this time. You know you should pick the person that you feel most comfortable with the person who you believe can step into the role President Edit, and it usually will come down to that, though, were also. Using an election where it's more important than ever before, to win right like winning, is governed by a huge consideration. So I think what thereby campaign will obviously do is forget just about these democratic voter. Poles go into these swing. States and start pulling Biden and some of these nominees and just to make sure like say by, like someone are, make sure that nominee that potential VP nominee doesn't lose you any motors. Does it make things worse right? If she doesn't, if it's either makes no difference or it makes a positive difference, then you pick who you like right. You pick who you believe in, and you pick who's going to be the best president. I think that's that's pretty clear
I am sure they will do a ton of polling, you now it'll be fine Warren verses, Trump Pence in Wisconsin by Harris as you know, and I know so on and so forth and they'll do this a lot between now and yet as having a little moment of fantasy of imagining Elizabeth Warrant debating my pants cinemas, going to think about that for like an hour just have it just a habit? Modestly, it's like it's like Elizabeth, Debating my pants, every Camelot do a great job lazy, Abraham Abrams Dreamy. Just though those maddening those three debating my pants is a fun debate, a thing he would. You would short out like a West World robot doing the Reagan impression, newbie, incredible! Ok, when we come back I have my interview with astern goals, be pardon America is broadly by policy genius, an insurance marketplace policy genius talks a lot about how unpredictable the future is. That's why insurance exists in the first place
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Bosnia's I'd want to applaud you for two lover: writing this very. There did a tiny is opening in this needle that, threat. It I mean just what up what a transition, what an effort to consistently crush it Pasadena's they compare, quotes on the top life insurance companies in one place. It just takes a few minutes to compare quotes from the top and chairs to find your best price. Once you apply, the policygenius team will handle all the paperwork and red tape for free. Isn't that's nice believe me Yeah you want, you want them to handle it. So if you wanted to many people looking to buy life insurance right now, but you're not sure where to start had to policy genius, dot, com policy genius will finding the best rate and handle the process completely. You could stop worrying about life insurance and get back to begging your bread adopting a fairy friend which is being find inconsiderate human. I am now joined by the former chair of the White House counsel of economic advisers. Current professor at the University of Chicago's boost school of business.
Friend, asked and goals be has gone. Goes we don't. You still owe me money, probably Fatima seems right just as the start just so people now you and I first hour together on the Obama campaign as the world is falling apart during the financial crisis, you helped me translate. Economists speak about morgue back securities and credit default swaps into simple English, which I always appreciated, and in the campaign of it we had this emergency bourbon that we pull them whenever the economy looked really bad, so my first question is much bourbon. Should we be drinking right now bye by our all measure. If it is, the market dropped, fiber set in a day. We were oh, that's terrible than if it was ten percent. We were like we re rules, you go get drunk. What are we going to do with ourselves We would add many bourbon days on this. One.
But we gotta stop meeting like this John and say now we have a agent it's getting. It's getting worse, I mean how how Do you expect this? To get? I mean, I feel if you like, projections are all over the place. Obviously the administration's are quite Sonny seemingly impossibly so, and and you know other people talking about depression levels of unemployment, which you know we could. We could see fairly sooner. We might already be in what it. What do you think I am using a meal? Terrible. In terms of just what the measure conditions are, I think, if you lie Do these unemployment insurance filings, that's the worst, Is probably the worst five weeks in the history of the american job market? What we ve just been through, we never had anything like that, the most
that the unemployment rate has gone up in an entire year, was in the depression and is about eight percent, next unemployment numbers that come out where likely gonna jump, something like twelve percent in a month so by that measure. It's gonna, be unbelievable. Worse than anything, we saw two thousand aid, two thousand nine, which was terrifying: worse, they then than any one of the great depression, the only thing that we got a hope, actually somewhat optimistic on this front. Is. It's not a regular business cycle, so you're gonna see numbers like you, ve never seen before. But the thing that's terror. Flying about an unemployment rate of ten percent or twelve percent? Is that in a normal boom that can come down Maybe one to one and a half points per year.
If this is a regular business cycle, we're gonna be a decade or more before we're back to anything like what we were before, but I actually don't think that that's true I mean if you, if you Could I just say poof and have a vaccine, I kind of like the economy could go right back to where it was previously covered, and So our only dance now is this dance of had a keep it to be temporary. How do we not lead people get evicted or not be able put food on the table or have their utilities cut off and and and all of that type of stuff small business have to liquidate. Bearing in mind that we got some sectors like crews lines or in sport stadiums that probably gonna, be a while before they come back. Their shock is maybe not as temporary as the others, so that,
along version to say I think, he's gonna be real bad, but it might be able to improve least somewhat faster than it does before. So the trump folks keep talking about a v shaped. Economic recovery? A lot of other economists are talking about? A? U shaped economic recovery can use it to translate that for us and and and where do you follow that spectrum? ok v shape is, it goes down comes right back up and new shape down, and I got up stumbles the bottom and then it comes up, and then the EL shape is like a waiver that does not a recovery and then we're going to argue about greek letters in Arabic, stripped of what's the shape of the recovery. I think the right way to think about it is, if you want to see, in income terms. Are GDP rather than unemployment the next corps It is likely to be the worst number we have ever had in the history of the data. Be minus twenty five percent minus thirty percent at an annual rate, which is unreal,
we ve never seen anything like that, even for a quarter and then the next quarter, it might come back, let's say robustly two plus ten, but the load. The figures, if you go minus thirty and then plus ten, Is I got an idea like mother, it's like well, why don't you stop saved me so much money, you're being a blemish. Ah, if we were going to brag about plus ten and we're still when he points under water. It is not going to feel like plus ten, I dont think The unemployment still gonna be double digit, now, ten percent even after dad come back, and that's because it's the comebacks in percent terms, out of the basement and end its its harder to fall to injury from the basement window entities,
from firms alive or for so you are too great peace. The New York Times over the weekend about how critical it is for the government to maintain public support during an economic crisis. What worries you most about the path the trumpet ministration has taken so far. I look I'd say There's one practical worry and there's one worry, spirit that has been with us from the very beginning, and that is start without one that is. Absolutely no one can deny that the president has wanted to say this is in serious from the beginning. They can try to go. Back and scrambled now? As we all know, there was a day when he said it. The pandemic, or he said that nobody from their flight. You come here, but the fact is an every. I'm sure they ve wanted less testing less documentation of the presence of this disease at regions juncture. They said how
the economy, but how many people are gonna die. How fast as the economy gonna come back, the President has cancer certainly been on the side of its not that serious. You can go back to work, we have fourteen cases and also be zero. People are finding its no worse than the flew all that comes from a place in his mind. That way. To minimize it and look. I understand that that kind of the authoritarian playbook. That was the same mentality that the Chinese add in rule on when the thing began and that's a deeply troubling, because Does it undermines and blows up the credibility of the United States government and of the President's Pacific you know better than anybody. John. We spent so much time, on the words used by the president that that he would beat it when he made a statement. A presidential statement was taken
the highest level of seriousness and the best that can be said for the president on on his worst days is we'll pay no attention to but he's waiting and pay no attention to what is saying he doesn't really mean it, and I can't under and that world and terrifies me, because what now So we come to the moment where, I think it is safe for some groups to start going back up. And the President says on Wednesday, everything is safe, ok, well, the thing is half the country does not believe the words the president if he says to on Tuesday we think it's open and the fire Industries can go back to work, people won't go back that undermining girl a bit credibility is really seriously problematic. The other is on the practical, We just don't have enough to looking. There are their
economies around the world that have now got them. I out of locked down and our recovery places Like Korea places like Germany places like Taiwan soon to be, Australia, New Zealand, a couple others they did enough testing The only people that have to go out of commission are the people who have the disease, and if you don't test, you can't that you can reopened the doors but you're just gonna get infected again and areas. Gonna have to go back in and lock the doors, so Imagine you're back in your old wine has job the fantastic new democratic president and lets say there are no political constraints in terms of what could pass Congress. What do you do next in terms of economic relief? And you can also include sort of non legislative action
to locate the first, I always say the number one rule of virus economics is the best thing you can do for the economy is slow, the rate a spread of the virus. Ok, so I would throw almost unlimited money at the fighting that war on the virus with a massive ramp testing. A massive increase in medical equipment- and I would subsidized- you saw in New York for good Apple Governor Cuomo, asked retired metal, those personnel to come back. Any thousands of volunteers out with federal government should be subsidizing that everywhere we will give you Signing bonus will waive all you won't have any social security penalty won't be any payroll DEC. Come out of retirement for a short period to help us, we should be trying expanded my world. The supply curve availed dear ok. Non economic relief. Once you are doing that to slow the spread of the virus, I think the pre,
Venting people from getting evicted and having their gas shut off and preventing small business from liquidating from temporary shocks. All of that super important. It is gonna, keep costing money because it's not regular stimulus is not meant to get us growing is just meant to prevent liquidation, and then I I think that this area of money to the states we saw at first hand in two thousand nine. What happened when you have a bad recession and the state coffers get completely depleted? Is there or have bowels budget rules that forced them to raise taxes in the face of the downturn or else cut spending. By firing the state workers, and it magnified the downturn in two thousand and nine, and it is about to ebb
salute we magnify this downturn, if this federal government does not step in to try to prevent that from happening. So I would. I would definitely work on that side too, when you think about some of these proposals that sort of go, maybe beyond the pay tax project protection programme from some more progressive members at say, like let's do what they're doing in Europe in some countries in Europe and just literally pay companies to make sure that all of their workers are on hair all and that they do not eating on the payroll. Look it's kind of interesting. I heart I'm a little more sympathetic with that approach than the one we took. We took that the approach, let's up the unemployment benefits, when peep for people who lose their jobs, and that's that we will deliver relief I'm a little more sympathetic to the idea that you, could use the money paid directly to the IMF,
to keep them on the payroll, because I think that way you don't break the employment relationship video it into the practical thing of like? Well, how are they gonna ray fine, their workers, when this is over, all of it depends on how long it lass. So in sympathy, to the view that do it through unemployment insurance. Was number one weed. I hear of we don't have as well set up a system to be able to do their part of that is what how many employees do you have? How will we know of your keeping them on the payroll or you're too, taking the money, and yet a for executive compensation or something and and to be because we have that system. We can get this out the door more quickly and that is important, so So I am sympathetic with the way we we have done it. Eventually we,
decide, I guess Aver for crews lines. Should the taxpayer be paying billions of dollars to keep crews lines open. Ay they're, not even headquarters in the United States, rainy plus their payroll or not. Americans should we be pay? you, keep them open when there's no demand for crews lines. Questions like that become a harder under the european system. The european system is great if this is a short term thing where everybody goes home, have a furlough taken nap, combat Is that my god, you have no idea what happened while you were asleep. Please come back to work. Ok, not that is perfect for would pay you to keep you on the payroll, If what has happened is several into Please have the mostly shut down and those people needing find new jobs. Then the EU I system is, I think, the better way to do so. Go back in our current political hell escape. What do you think the most
Morton things for the Democrats in Congress to fight for in the next economic relief bill. What would you five foreign and why. Having a strictly economic side? I think this money to the states is gonna, be critically important and it is already turned into this red state. Blue stay football. I think that the Like I say, the money will always run out if it's just relief. The money will always run out. So we're going to be back to the coffers knee. Thing to say there are: a bunch of people cannot put food on the table there, a bunch of small businesses that are about to liquidate, and this thing is a snowball, and so I think money for that for in that style has got to be on the table can't really get away from the get the money out there fighting the spread of the virus. I mean that's the if we could sliced aid and trade volumes of testing tracing medical equipment,
doing research. If what, if it's true that all of us be Dan is over. Our bows could slow the rate of spread of the virus by fifty percent That alone might be enough to allow us to come to get a bunch of people going back to work and an I don't. I don't think that it was clear easy it were Mitt Romney didn't come up with it up. There were lotta Democrat, to who also had the idea, but bonus pay for critical workers. I hope they go fight for that. Yet that that should aid should include medical, but it should be we're glued tons of more and better Gorman. It's crazy delivery box for liveries ample. We ve got people working at these at these, the resolution? We don't live without them doing that and they should get bonuses
so unsurprisingly Mcconnell. Another Republicans have cited concern over the deficit as a reason to hold up the next corona virus relief bill. You know not not as a big surprise, coming from those guys but to what extent should concerns about the deficit factor into policy making over the course of this crisis they're all absolutely zero, that that is a joke, as I say, the Ass thing, you want Dwight Eisenhower to be thinking in June of nineteen. Forty four is Hey? Let's take half the boats and mouth there because I didn't have a pay for for the landing on on. Today beaches, I mean come on revenue neutrality, in a war is the last thing that you need that the debt is specifically for spreading out cost like this, which are critical to the survival of the country, and on top of that, if.
Who trillion dollar unpaid for tax God by George W Bush. Trillion dollar, maybe a little over one trillion, plus who trillion dollar unpaid for war plus eight who trillion dollar Trump Tax, God, all of which happened on for and with no run up in the end, straight of the United States did not convince you. Let the market right now convince you that debt compared of the? U S? Government is vastly an excess of where we are now. The problem of deficits is not that they create a fiscal crisis for the country it's that, ultimately, you do have to pay back the mind and soul. We will be doing by running that now is we have higher taxes or a big, share of what we spend our government money on in the future, going to interest payments for that then we would be comfortable with, but
think of world war. Two corrected for inflation, we're war to cost over four trillion dollars and the economy was a lot smaller than and the debt went way up. And the way they paid back is they re. Taxes, especially on high income people, but they raise taxes post war we grew and those two things together. What brought the debt to GDP ratio down over time? We should like to hear the Republicans saying first, that we need. We had two trillion dollars to spend on tax, got no problem there We have almost we trillion dollars to spend on the cares act. Five hundred billion for big business leverage five trillion through lending at the FED We have money for the p.
Bp Programme, the supposed to go to small business and real estate, investment trusts and big companies and friends of the president. I got the money and they and when they say will you know what we need to do now is make sure that everyone can eat and they say. Oh, my god, we don't have the money for that. What about the deficit? When will we kidding what are they even talking about classic classic last question: you talked about sort of a lot of the money that were a the policy were passing now is about relief and not necessary, They stimulus. What as we as we look ahead towards sort of long term economic stimulus. What are some of your sort of favorite ideas, infrastructure, green infrastructure, like what were or do you think it's important how important? I think it is. I look. I think those are both infrastructure and green. Structure and health infrastructure. All of that is is super important. I don't In my mind, I don't
policies that with immediate term stimulus I'm absolutely for big expansion of infrastructure and have been for twenty years That said, we learned in two thousand nine when we pass the stimulus that the infrastructure parts Even the most shovel ready of those projects take a little longer than then the advocates want subdue. Right on the notion that it Let's say six months from now were passed. The peak of the virus. And we are actively wanting to get girl to come back. My favoured outcome is: have the federal government pay the states to to, do sales tax holidays because you only get the tax got You spend the money and then the other
They just go down the list from two thousand nine of what stuff had the highest bang for the back. There were massive numbers and length of reports some put out, but Berlin Council Economic advisers and some by others going through all the different Poland of the stimulus. What had high bank for the buck and what did there are a lot of direct government programmes that had very high thing for the buck in terms of of stimulus Austin goes. We thank you so much for Africa on POD save America. It was good talk, any man, it's always pledges. Thanks to us for joining us today and I'll see you guys later, My lawyer resume coasts Kyle segment is our sounded junior thanks to turn you so many to Katy Long row. Pod, save America is a product of cricket media. The executive board there is Michael Martinez are assisting producer. Is Jordan Waller? It's me, in edited by Andrew Chadwick Carl Sagan? Is our sound engineer things to tell you something?
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Transcript generated on 2020-05-05.