Jon, Dan, and Erin Ryan discuss the testimony of Dr. Christine Blasey Ford and Judge Brett Kavanaugh before the Senate Judiciary Committee. Then Katie Couric talks to Jon about her new podcast documentary that reflects on the tenth anniversary of her famous interviews with Sarah Palin.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
The present exports, are pod. Save America is zip
former president once said, facts are stupid. Things when attempted to quote John Adams, who actually said facts are stubborn things not
Mark you know what actually ever greater I'm gonna go. Hadn't utterly! That's a mistake!.
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modest way to welcome the pod, save America, I'm John forever Andean Pfeiffer, Marin, Ryan, later in the pod, you'll hear my interview. Katy cork who's got a new podcast documentary
in an interview she did with Sarah Palin ten years ago. Oh- and that was the craziest thing that happened so a few other quick,
keeping things before going to the news on pod: save the world this week time each side of the Atlantic, Natasha Bertrand, about Thee,
uncertainty override resin stones tenure in the trumpet
restoration. I have up. I have a,
however hysteria but earn your here, I'm here what's on this area this, so we had to record hysteria on Wednesday, which was before the man
about a so
but one thing that was cool about this week is that we were able to highlight four really exciting female candidates. Instead of of like dwelling on the super dark news, so we gotta talk
Lucy Mc Bath, Jean Ortiz Jones Couple, other candidates who might be excited about between now and the election will probably be highlighting, but also women that are running especially inflammable districts, especially young women, women of color and and women running with, with nontraditional back stories, cells, excellent, trying to keep it light, something hopeful yeah,
Also, everyone tickets are now available for the,
shows that we will be doing for our HBO special this.
Which will be in Miami Arundel be with us.
Austin Philadelphia in Irvine, and so you can check it out. This website
W w dot the blacklist and Y see dot com. Slash p essay check that out for tickets to the HBO shows ok,
we are recording this during the
Cavanaugh Ford hearing today
and we require Report
This basically right after Lindsey Gram lost his mind.
During the questioning of Judge Bread, Cavanaugh,
the second half of the hearing, and then we decided we been white with bits. Two p m now:
who thirty p m. Now on Thursday, we ve been watching this sense
seven, a m author of us have been in the office watching this with everyone else. I think just start what an awful day
it is probably the crazy.
Political event I,
witnessed since Trump won the election.
I don't know if that's how I feel right now. I guess
Let's start with initial reactions of Doktor Blasi forwards,
only questioning, and then we can move on to Cavanaugh Errand
Erin, warrior initial reactions watching Doktor Christine Blasi for this morning. While
I think that a lot of women watching this kind of went through
similar. I similar a series of
ocean that I went through its incredibly d.
As a woman to watch this unfold over and over again
look at another another round of of headlines that have to do a sexual assault to watch. Another woman basically have tat kind of dissect herself in front of the world to prove what happen.
What happened to her a lot of friends
of mine texted me this morning saying they were getting emotional watching this was this is very difficult for them. I felt watching her that she would
incredibly brave in ways that I couldn't imagine being brave, her voice wavered, but she kept together. She was very straightforward, in fact based she
he acted in a way that is unfortunately like the standard that women who try to make a point who try to be believed need to adhere to a man like
the ground, like you mention, can throw tantrums and scream
the camera and complain and wine, and that's totally fine, because their men and they have gravitas. But the pressure on Ford.
A lot higher than it would be on a man, because women need to act more
national income in order to be thought of as ass, rational in common
and so I was I was real.
Impressed with her her
oh, her calmness or her calm at, but I
also very upset by the fact that we had to revisit those issues again as women, yet again,
yeah. I thought the same thing about her bravery. Like I, you know. I found myself Terry through watching the test,
money and watching her statement as like, and I'm not even
I can imagine what she's going to wrap right now, what she was going through and how she kept together the whole time- and she was so poised and self,
full and her an incredible in her testimony down. What did you think? I agree with that
you cannot be a rational person and watch her put herself before the nation and give that testimony about this. Incredibly traumatic experience had happened to her
and believe that this is part of some sort of democratic plot to unseat bread, cabin all or tilt the Supreme Court it. I think it would have been obviously are just motion, critic credibly compelling, and but it's also it's just was sad, because this is that this is such an incredibly serious thing and we live in a political world where one of our parties is incapable of acting with the seriousness and compassion in the empathy that you would expect in this situation would hope for in this situation. Yeah. I keep kept thinking like after listening to her testimony and listening to her after every one question. Her just comes back to you either believe her count or you don't, and if you don't believe it, you should ask yourself why. Why
What why would she put herself through which she had to put herself through today? Why would she put her family through that? What did she have to gain? What incentive did she have to do this today? Yeah, that's something I was thinking a lot about and at an Irish think
sort of might of them. It's a different version of a thing,
then go through a lot. I think
when a woman is in a lot of cases when she's when she sexually assaulted or victimized by a guy, that's something that sticks with her for the rest of
life. You know Doktor Ford has
so ve been thinking about this thing that happened to her when she was a teenager, since it happened likes to the extent that it and impact it
remodeling that she was doing on her home at after she'd been married decades later at end. That's that's the thing. That's like women. Carry this with
forever, and one thing that I was thinking just as the day went on is, is that you know
at Cavanaugh has performed believing that he didn't do. The psyche me is perfect,
believing that this thing happened to her, but he made
doesn't remember? I just think that that it's it's sort of the way there
happened for a lot of women. Is that something will happen to them, and it will be something to think about every day for the rest of their lives and then at the guy just doesn't have to live with a just, doesn't think about it. It goes away for him. I think that says as much about the situation and I think that the most traumatic experience of Doktor Blasi for its life is something that Brett Cavanaugh does even remember to be any other Saturday night or Friday night in his high school career, and it's nothing it's a microcosm of what we're dealing with in this country on these issues. The level of debt
tell in her testimony. You mentioned the front door, you know, and she said she said that when they were remodeling their home, she wanted to have two front doors and shoot me a kind of fight with her husband about this and other people who are working on the house and no one can understand why she wanted the second door and that's how she ended up when when she was in couples therapy with her husband bringing up the internet for the first time, you have her bring this up in twenty twelve and in a therapy session you have for sworn statements from friends of hers.
That you brought this up with them over the years and then we found it. You know we as we learn today. She brought this up
You, her representatives before Cavanaugh, was nominated for the court as across his
but this phasing. Basically, she was trying to do the White House, his vetting for them, and she said a couple times during the testimony I was hoping I was praying. They would go for an equally qualified
conservative nominee for the court and not Cavanaugh, and why not
they weren't going to do that. When I was worried about, I started coming fork as I thought he might end up being the one so like none of that. None of that points to the fact that she might have made this
yeah I mean here's the thing a lot of times. We talk about sexual assault, people to say that that women lie about it and you know
I think that if people are fucked up enough to sexually assault each other, their people, that would be fucked up enough to liable.
But here is the way that I think that most of the lies or on sexual assault happen. If you're one
That is how to happen to you. You have to lie about its, they can get through the rest,
If you have to lie about how big a deal it was to you, you have
the lie about
ability to overcome it without intervention
and I think men who do it lie about it too. They lie about it so
can tell themselves at the doors there the sort of person who doesn't rate people.
Need to rewrite history, as is happening. We ve talked about this on hysteria allotted
You know some of my co host had interaction
with men that were definitely not okay, where a man
I do overpower. You are a man amend hearted to do somebody that wasn't okay and, in my case at least
The guy who tried to do it to me reached out
years later to like friend, requests me on Facebook
it was like hey hours ago, has been so great to see your success. Like
to me that was me witnessing him trying to pretend that that hasn't happened, and I think that that is the biggest liar on sexual assault. People need
to pretend that it didn't happen so that they can believe what they believe about what kind of person they are and break. Having clearly has an idea what kind of person he is he's the captain of the basketball team
got into Yale. He went to parties and just had a good time. He drank a lot of beer, he's, not the kind of person who ruined someone's life. He needs to not believe use that person will gets a sort of his
side of this whole hearing later, but you you could serve tell you could tell that in his.
Anger and his testimony to write that
in his mind, he's like, and he kept saying this over and over I've been through, so many FBI investigations. I've been so pub
for so long I've gotten this far, I'm a good father, I'm a basket, and you could tell you he generally,
We believe that those things to be true and its possible that all those things
are true and he still sexually assaulted. Darker Boise, for you know like I think he he's.
It is out of the situation. The Republicans are like, however, in turn a painting,
is an evil monster, its whole life and he's not he's a good guy, but its it seems like it's much more complicated than that is absolutely
People are more complicated than that because here's the thing people can evolve and people can choose.
And people can behave in ways that are abhorrent when there under the info
of alcohol or drugs and as they mature? They can move away
from being the sort of person? Who would do that kind of thing? But I also think that it would be
less difficult for me to accept. If Fret Cavanaugh were this
a person who who were
Who believed in those qualities from other people? His judicial record, for example,
and in any way support the idea that people deserve redemption for mistakes they made when they were teenagers. You know he was
a person who, on the DC circuit, pushed for an undertaking
eighteen to not be able to obtain an abortion after she had met all the legal requirements set forth by Texas LAW. He you know it lived european
party of mandatory minimum sentencing for under age drug offenders. The deal p is the party.
Mandating pregnant teens, carry pregnancies, deter, I just don't. I think that if
have not in any way exhibited the forgiveness that he wants the world to give him now? That would be something that would
baby move me a little bit, but he hasn't got he's incapable of excise
missing any divergence from his personal narrative about himself and there has been zero.
Self examination about any mistakes he has made in his life either
just have even beyond this persistent specific allegation just about
an asshole seventeen year olds, which many seventeen year olds can be being obnoxious, other people drinking too much interest at every single time. He
fuses to acknowledge any fault on himself, which raises real question,
you're denials, because if you like
about the small things repeatedly.
Suggested, you would also why about the big things. Yeah we're out, of course, takes him up
all day and Honorary Cox was saying cannibalize, that's that's what he keeps keep telling ketchup alive,
that is the story of the entire confirmation process. With him from beginning to end whether it's about- and we said this a million times on this progress, whether its
How'd, you know, receiving stolen doc,
and stern that hearing whether it's his openings,
eight men about how gently and our trump has never consulted more people for any position ever when today think small thing
in his yearbook cry like us all.
Little lies that are easily proven false that he keeps telling, which tells you that there is a credibility issue at stake here. He is theirs. There's two people here this doctor for
and there's bread, Cavanaugh recovery has been caught in dozens of lies already big ends
all and she has not been so. The Republicans had an Arizona prosecutor named Rachel Mitchell handle the questions for the Republicans to Doktor Fort because they didn't they didn't like thee,
understandably optics of whereas at eleven men on the judiciary
love republican men, questioning, Doktor Ford, Republicans, I've never had a woman in the fisheries Committee in the hundreds of years that you share committees
that's correct, so they had done. They had never seen an press groaning Rachel Mitchell who you know her background is in prosecuting sex crimes. She handled the questions for Doktor Fort
What did we think of that
the tobacco well
it depends on what your interest
in getting out of this hearing. If you're interested in her prosecuting a woman who says that she experienced sexual assault in the same way that you'd prosecute someone accused of sexual assault, and you didn't get what you wanted. What I saw people on Twitter saying that
essentially subjected doktor forward to a standard intake, illegal stand.
There is of intake questions that you would you ask a sexual assault survivor, but just in five minute chunks.
Opted via democratic grandstanding and speeches for the most part, so it was a really
bizarre kind of current construction. For this entire thing, I think that it seemed
She didn't really know the facts of the case that she was dealing with, that she asked questions that that betrayed a lack of knowledge
and I also think that by the end, she kind of new that she'd fucked up and she asked doctor for it. If you know she can acknowledge that this is a weird format doctor for it was like yeah,
at an eye and I saw a lot of public as are pretty mad about it. I don't think that they are satisfied that she did their bidding for them. Now. I was a very poorly conceive plan through executed, even more poorly
you're a cheese had what seem to have less knowledge of the facts,
then, the average twitter user who's been fondness closely.
And where she seemed to have the most knowledge, and most interest was not about what happened to Doktor Ford and weather
red cabin on March. Judge did this, but to defend them.
Publicans on the process of when the hearing was gonna, be in when she was in contact with Iron Feinstein that she was much more interested in whether
reporter she talked to her when she sent a letter who paid for her polygraph, none of which is relevant to,
it may or may not have happened and that
Can it gives away the game for what the Republicans were? Actually after that's what I took from a to is that she
though the republican case here is that I want to say the Doktor Ford is alive, so their cases. She is a victim.
His breath, Cavenaugh of a democratic smear campaign. That is the line that they're going because therefore, then they don't have to say that she is a liar, but they can it further and say that if the Democrats fault- and it seems as though Rachel Mitchell's questions were trying to support that narrative by saying who paid for the polygraph test well doktor for
lawyers paid for the programme has as its standard, as both of the lawyer said during the hearing.
And then there was you said you had a fear of flying
And yet here you are in the fear. I was opposed to delay the hearing, and so there big thing is there making a case that the hearing was delayed and that that's just a democratic strategy
the delay, delay, delay and so she's trying to prove that that, like injured over,
fly on vacations all the time. It was fucking, absurd, yeah and they were getting really hung up on process questions like they were. They were shaking their fast, especially during the intermissions, because the only people we got to see question for
Directly was was Mitchell, we didn't get to see
actual rage of the Republicans, although that would have been you know it
I think I would have walked slowly into the sea if I would have had to watch that already has hard enough and but but one of the thing
she said that they were saying is just there so mad about. The of this is the proper procedure. This is this. Is it at my? My main point about this is that
if you found serious, zero, syrian
this behaviour among a nominee for the highest court in the land,
that really matter how you found out that information like I was
earlier. If someone walked by my apartment,
building and soft flames coming onto my bedroom window and broke in and saved my cat, and I will,
fine. I was like wait. How'd you get my apartment. Building put the cat back in there. You don't pay for you over over did George Soros, make your keys like that that that's ridiculous. I think that its in America's best interests to be aware of all the skeletons in closets of people that are nominated, be Supreme Court justices into be angry, but the process is egregious in its also
bread, Cavanaugh does not have a right to be a spring court. Did
the standard of whether you get a lifetime appointment to the highest coordinate land is not beyond reasonable doubt. It is a job interview and
It is this sentence responsibility to ensure
that they put someone on the core
who, beyond a shadow of a doubt, is not a person
when engaged, these sorts of things exceeds he's right, brick have right to be on the court.
In the amount of entitlement that Republicans and brought Cavanaugh
himself of had about this role is frank, is disgusting really I
God. Oh no, I was just going to say, though, watching him. Color reacts with aggression to being questioned and
being so emotionally volatile vault. How, during his portion of the hearing a sort of
be reminded me very much of like you know and Eightys teen bully and our president
kind of that model to like it's, it's a sort of overly emotional reactive man who can't handle anything but getting it
exactly what he wants all the time and that's what I was seeing today go puts all the team boys Johnny's after whenever he got a kid zoo, wheat. The lead, as
watching it, I just I couldn't help it think over and over again, like today, never had to happen. They could have replaced him at any moment with an equally conservative right wing judge and still achieve their goals, and if they didn't want to do that, they could have conducted and a more intense FBI background investigation. They could have had marked judge testify, and you could you could see this sort of.
On the face of Rachel Mitchell, the prosecutor. At the very end that moment, you are too sanguine, Aramis she's, talking to Fort at the very end and she's, basically saying like, as you know, this is not the process we usually use to talk to someone who makes a sexual assault allegation were usually tied to someone in private. We do this. We that this is basically to citizens
the process I would have chosen, but here I am in here. You are because all of these fucking assholes couldn't give up the fact that they won't break, haven't
Supreme Court more than anyone else couldn't find. Anyone else besides broke have to do that.
Whole thing: is yours accurate, holding a so wild? Because look, let's be honest, I would
Well, that if there is a world where Cavanaugh lost a vote and then Democrat surface at it- and we would one day get that's supreme
that is most likely, not gonna happen. Rigour
the weather Cavanaugh withdraws whether he loses republican.
Have the ability, because they control the Senate. To put some one
This conservative, maybe more conservative in some ways than break having on the court. So it's not about that, and.
What I think is so troubling is that this has become too
confirm. Cavanaugh now confirm cabinets become this republican list. Little
test which is really just sort of a test of this are toxic,
masculinity about it, which is why we have we have two German through, is: if not, we will show weakness. We must
the lives we must show the women. You know it's like right, Jack pursued Bianca that guy's name is tweet. It ate.
This is the end of feminism, MRS. There is something that
very when this.
All said and done. There is something
it is going to have
really long lasting effects and I think a very negative way. I'd help people view discussions
of gender in society about sexual assault,
Yes, it's polarizing and around were in
What happens when you have some online trumpets Press
is to believe the victims, his son,
You have a slight on the president's Republicans have to take the other side, whether its breath Cavanaugh Roy more raw.
Bill wherever else as you have to side with the man and that it somehow,
the republican bona fides in the estate agent- that's
matter for a very long time with a wreck. Hospitals in the quarter not and for an first of all, feminism is not dead in anything. This is alot of people superhero origin story in ninety. Ninety two
more women ran for office after they need a hill and hearings more that more women run for office than ever before. After Donald Trump was elected president more women,
so many women ran for office are started running through office through Emily's list. Another vote, drafting or organizations like that that it was it was massive,
who is massive and women are doing a lot of the work on the ground when they're doing a lot of organizing every single time we do a live show. There are so many women there. Women are fired. The fuck up
I think seeing this just as us as well as one woman watching this. I am going to
have that feeling in my belly for weeks now like if Cavanaugh gets, confer
we'll row be overturned. Probably
there are thirteen cases right now, one step away from the Supreme Court that that could chip away at row, but
doesn't mean that women are gonna, stop fighting feminism. Is women standing up for themselves and and continuing to fight? And if Jack programme
ECHO that believes it
that that women are that easy to put down like we ve been giving birth without anesthesia for thousands of years. We can withstand
one more day of this, we can receive withstand one more year of this and because we're going to- and we always have an like
I dont want to be like Pollyanna, because anything Paul had said fuck as much as I do, but I just I can't be discouraged by this, like that. It socked today socks, but I can't feel discouraged by this, because the only option is to to try to find ways to pick out the good from this, and I think that there is
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Enjoying the movement. So after darted forecasts, testifying and actually during her testimony to a lot of not that the super crazy Republicans, but a lot of like you
the never trump Republicans. You ve been saying over the last couple weeks like
even though we don't like Trump. This whole
all the smear job against Cavanaugh. This is really rallying all the Republicans back to the party in O. A lot of them
sang owner, she's, very credible. I think the nominations dead. This is bad Fox Fox Chris Wallace was saying this is a disaster for the,
public and so are the immediate reaction after Doktor Ford, Finnish, testifying was. This was a disaster for the Republicans and
I kind thought to myself at that moment: are it everyone hole?
in their minds right now, because everything in arson
id for the last over many years now has been like you know
down the memory hole in ten minutes, because everything got so fast and we have a collective amnesia country
and then sure enough.
Right. Cavanaugh sets out to testify and just starts yelling
angry outraged crying lamb. What is everyone's first reactions about the cabin, a forty five minute, opening statement that he too have perhaps
danger like well, you gonna go you go. I wanted to know why he was yelling at me. Really. It was everything
saying that you would tell him not to do it a normal world right where
you want to show, even if even it why you are argue,
For your innocence, you wanna show some empathy for Doktor Ford, to which he showed none
you want to show some respect for the process that these are legitimate.
Questions that you should answer for you to be given the privilege of the Supreme Court
he showed none. He seemed
green entitled, which,
The exact thing you shouldn't do unless you have an audience of one, and that is the angry entitled man and chief, I thought the Pandit tree Whiplash kind of betrayal,
pervasive double standard that men and women face in their behaviour. If, if the rules were reversed and the temperaments were reversed, if
Cavanaugh had gone first and and been just kind of emotional but steadfast throughout his testimony.
And then what if Doktor Ford got up there and started yelling? No, not inductor. Ford is a white woman. If doktor forward any race but white clothes, she would have been
completely turned into political cartoon by Fox NEWS within me.
She would have been a mean that Don Junior was sharing on his instagram within minutes. I think what's important
out, it is an audience of one on one hundred. On the other hand, it's an audience of like fork and too
those four women, Collins and Rakowski. Now, as a woman
for every woman, but I can say that when a man yells at me, I dont really take kindly to that. I'm not really one
response well to up to two feeling like an emotional and unstable man is screaming, especially if I'm trying to
I'd. Rather, not then emotional and unstable man deserves have a lifetime appointment to a high court, though I think that I,
that his yelling, my reaction was like Jesus Christ, dude
like I realize you ve been through a hard time and I feel deeply for his wife and his children. What they are going through is horrible and totally not their fault, but his
emotional. Outbursts to me did betrayed his unfitness for the court
even more than his judicial record dead yeah what
temperament. What about Judy? I noted that the equality that you need for it to be a judge at all that was right out. The window also assertive betrayed him as a partisan hack,
I mean he went after Democrats and I'm I'm watching them
unfolding is yelling he's yelling about the democratic, had job in the left. He said that this is, he flew,
the conspiracy that this whole thing is revenge against him for what he did to the Clinton's
nobody on the latin sad defensive of the Clinton upwards. Fine, we're not a about it.
That's my myself like this is so,
to be a nurse
and partisan objective jack, I'm terrified of him on the court, I never wanted upon the door in the first with like it, but like he was
The fact that he was so nakedly, partisan and angry to me was to dislike and look I don't think it in some people say well, you'd be really angry. Two of your falsely accused
Well, brick. Heaven has been accused now for a while now now right and he was on Fox NEWS,
and sat for very long interview, just a couple
years ago, and he
they're. Just mumble talking points. The same talking points over and over again, if he was falsely accused, then he didn't show even a hint of emotion and then
just as a coincidence between then and today, we see all these reports at trumpets upset that he didn't show anger Trump is upset that he wasn't
hiding from self Republicans, woman fight harder and so then
he comes in today and sits down and just fuckin uncorked like do. We will
I thought he was more playing an angry guy than actually being angry yeah. I
to work on a like a comedy clip show where we had people kind of in a room, reacting to two clips and was like a best week is combats we ever and sometimes you'd be in there. I was a writer and I would say
I'd be in the room with people or does not having a good day, and you would
see the actor get more and more unravelled and that's a watching brief
When I did, a kind of reminded me of being in the studio was someone who does wasn't keeping it together,
and was just getting more and more just and and it's like. Can you give it to me with more energy and then they give you the line? And it's like? Oh, that does not take away a human, would talk about anything. It does seem like. He was
forming outrage, but also
oh, that some of his outrage was channeled from his feeling. Sorry for himself and entitled right was argument, huddled, anger, yeah completely, and it's got its specific look. It's like an eighty seen bully phase that he has like he pushed himself back from his chair
especially when Senator Club, which I was talking to him. He when he reciprocally asked her if she had ever blacked out from drinking like she's, the one being confirmed. This never happened, offload the in a really most so rude. I wanted to send him to the principles like that's just
was extremely rude and and uncalled for, and you know it sucks if he believes himself to be falsely contrary if he's playing somebody who has been falsely accused the then, of course you can be angry but too to be
I now have you like Cecily it just. It was not a good luck with that.
The point about his inability to cope with the kind of kid he was
thinks he's done his life. That was when he got the most angry when they asked in these very specific questions about
king too much in high school and the things he did in the
this thing, then a lot of people would say who did things they weren't proud of in high school would be. I mean,
the mistakes and I've changed, but he refuses to say that
he originally try to argue whence in her White House asked him about being the Ralphie.
Beach week that had somebody with a weak stomach
opposed to drinking a lot of beer mean the whole
it just its it. He had trouble
every every time he opened his mouth. He further undermine his credibility and
nay. If we were living in a rational. What were you were making a judgment where he had? He really does have to prove to everyone in the Senate.
People who matter can decide whether he gets a jump Supreme Court decided we death
but we believe him over doctor, for that is what the choices, because
this is a job of you. If you were interviewing someone to be to work it, a company
on an office, and you were faced with it,
with allegations like these credible allegations, if you heard from some one of doktor someone like Doktor Ford called, you said this applicant who
this job at your company did this
and they ve said the to and use their name publicly.
You would not higher that percent. This is not the standard of whether Brett Cavenaugh goes to. Germany
his life is not room and if he does not get this
court signorini does he goes
actual lifetime appointment on the second highest court in the land like Crimea, River with mere garland, with Merrick
and you look. You know he got a motion on he's talking about his daughter and his family and I dont
that that emotion was real,
I'm sure he's very upset when his family has had to go through. I think he's also not quite reckoning with the fact that what his responsibility was in putting his family through some of this
But as I go, I don't doubt the fact that use upset about what his daughters
to go through that it was a real emotion when he was talking about his dad again. I just think that
he has not come to terms with this thing that he
has done, or at least his general behaviour.
Even like use it and even his general behaviour when he was in high school, where
Clearly we know from accounts from our job
from what he wrote in the urban areas that he drank a lot from his
freshman year. You're remain college, who said he was incoherently in belligerently drunk all the time
If the view of the right is or two things, one that Doctor Ford is part of a left wing conspiracy to derail cabin OZ, confirmation and that Judge Cavenaugh deeply believes it his innocence there,
couple of things that people have to reckon with one John. As you said,
she originally raise these concerns before he was nominated right in the hopes that tromp would nominates some one else seconds
if Cavenaugh and the Republicans truly believe beyond a shadow of a doubt in his innocence than they would do to thinks, they would have asked for an FBI investigation,
which may not be conclusive but
could possibly learn a lot more in two
they would have had marked judge testify under oath, has the
person who is alleged to have been the room. Those are the two that is
would do if you want to clear
your name and
everyone that you were. You are innocent. Those who think she would do any refused to do those two things which raises a lot of questions, and not only did they refused to do the things, but when question today, repeatedly
having refused to allow those things happen, in fact his so far. Who knows what is moments
lessons within recording, but so far and his
moments where, when Dick turbans
Durban continually question him. Ok,
Why, wouldn't you haven't enough university openness, the open up the FBI, investigation again bring mark judges to testify and he dissembled he knows, try
the change the topic any went over and over again yeah Dick Durban,
I had a really good day, we're we're on a big group tax fur hysteria, and I texted big dick.
Georgiana, though, and then that gotta get reactions are treated at exactly how we operate the positive work. It's just you know just doing a little work shopping of that one really too
in kind of contrast between two of those both the testimonies, was when doktor for testified, and she was just.
Seeing her female friend, who is at the party with her she mentioned,
that, her friend is now facing health problems and is taking care of herself and she didn't in this room
empathetic way. That was like I'm glad that she's spending time focusing on our health Balboa wink.
And always testifying and they brought up Mark Judge he immediately did
it's weird thing- that weird thing that people who are trying to deflect the conversation do, which is where they take the most sympathetic thing about the person and accuse you of exploiting that are attacking them because it so the mark judge things like you're going to attack somebody with an addiction Europe.
To attack somebody with a disease is, and they all they were doing, was questioning him about a book that Mark Judge wrote about his
I'm parting with some guy named Bardo Cavanaugh. That was definitely nonprofit cabinet, and it's just that to me is a tale of somebody who is defensive and lying its. It was so naked to me and the contrast between him and Doktor Ford was really stark again
in turn about like what new information, what new facts to be learned from hearing Doktor Ford testified that she saw Mark judge again six to eight weeks after the incident. She saw him in a safe way, as he was working at a say,
way in his face went white when he saw her, and he didn't really want to look at her. Anyone really want to talk to her and then sure enough, some
from Washington Post is able to corroborate that marked again,
she was a why dont know when he actually worked at that job. But if I knew when he worked in the at that Safeway, I would be able to tell you when that happened for sure sure enough, in his book somewhat from russian Post found it
He worked at that safe way in the summer of nineteen. Eighty two, when this incident is alleged to have happened as if they are really
I agree telling of summer of sixty nine by mid summer of eighty two God was an awful yet
was. That was something that I thought was really funny about when the Republicans just gave up on unmeaning on their aunt Lydia to question Doctor Ford and they just
questioning I judge Cavenaugh themselves. I thought was
interesting is that they would all kind of real.
As they were kind of getting toward. Maybe we should have an FBI investigation and back of it, there are a few
since as areas like? Oh there s
for more information. You know how to get in
information would be sue
a cabinet with Super defensive about the FBI's role with the FBI does, but I I thought that the Republicans kept back in themselves into
whether that matters are not really comes down to a handful of people. That
in this room right now, but I thought it was a telling moment
in the fucking calendar to without him, going through the calendar and he's like. First of all, first of all we never drink on weeknights we can drink on weekends cuz we all work during the summer, so we can work on weekends
on the calendar. It has one night
in early July, where he said with marked
I urge and p J and someone else, a timid house for quote Skis, which meant Briski Psmith. I dont know why are assuming that John they're, watching an alpine competition you don't now, though, is the captain of the ski t. His own calendar refutes his his
intention that he didn't drink on the weak lights reaches easily.
Tangible? Why? I think that another important point that I think are glossed over is the Republicans keep saying Ann Cavanaugh said over and over again that statements from the other people right. You were at the the party they could,
dean for discusses, have refuted her account, and that is not true.
That is an extra they say they do not remember such a party in history
Ford said in her testimony. They probably don't be
it was like any other party except for her,
Has she was assaulted and, like I like
all this bread Cavanaugh. If you ask me about a specific party in high school
just like any other party. I wouldn't remember
That party- and so
go around saying that her account has been refuted. That is why it is
absolute violating its it in that is getting lost over the media coverage and how in how it's been discussed in the hearing, so it was but the reaction after
cabin or during the cabin a portion of the hearings which were stolen. A lot
their minds and
he's very credible. You know now we're standing with bread, the White House in others, there's reporting from the White House, people with white sources, saying Trump loves this
tromp said this. Is why pick the guy? Why has
listen. We loved Don Junior Asshole,
an tweeting. How how great Havanas being so and in
the people who had by the way Cavanaugh
Miss, outraged and angry will play well with a lot of the republican base, which is a take. I you know, New was coming and refer to contend with and
could be correct right I mean I know I wouldn't be shipped surprised if there's a lot of
angry white men out there who said yeah? That's that's my guy
yeah I mean there was appalled at came out this week from
ah merest an PBS news, our end and pr that found that I am more than sixty percent of men, who are Republicans believe the Doktor Ford is lying
and so I think the yeah and also I've seen the line. You know publicly men discussing it from the right saying like this could
than to you. This could happen to your son. This could happen to your neighbour, and by this could happen they mean a woman could say that they assaulted them, which is patently false. We have a very
Recent historical example of a man, a male man, if a non female person being fucked being nominated to be a Supreme court justice and flying through with some
democratic votes with no sir.
Assault allegations. That's because Neil Gore such apparently didn't sexual,
Salt is heard Georgetown Prep alumni, Neil Gore such ass. He went to the same high school was not over; it thou foresees that night. I guess what trouble
the president, then, and we were angrier about that Supreme Court seat, because that was the stolen Supreme Court seat that merit Garland should have had. So if anyone was gonna whip up some false allegations of sexual assault, Neil go
It would have been much more likely target for Democrats
maybe I'm just as the wild theory here, but maybe women just don't go around
making shut up when it comes to sexual assault. Maybe this is something that is very serious and that women have seen countless examples of women who have publicly said that their survivors be just raked through the call
walls, maybe it's not something that anybody would lie about, because the stakes are too high right when you have to sit in turn.
Two mony in front of the entire world live on now.
We'll television antennae,
about this under penalty of perjury. It made. Maybe that's something that you just go. Do may mean again. I just keep coming back to it is,
is correct that we may never know exactly what happened that night in nineteen eighty two but Doktor Blasi Ford has absolutely no incentive to lie about this and bread. Cavenaugh has every single
incentive to lie about what happened. That is what we know, and we also know that he has been caught in many. Many small and big lies for this entire process and she has been nuts
but credible. I agree, and I also think that before I before it really seen Judge Cavenaugh speak publicly. All I knew was some of his judicial history because of the case with the undocumented teenager, but I've never seen him in public I'd, never seen him speak and the more I am exposed to the sort of person he seems to be and the sort of person collapses into when you subject
any form of pressure at all the warring. I'm the more
I think you know, even if he's not guilty of sexual assault. This is not a person that I would one on the supreme
I don't want him besmirching, the sacred bench that my goddess route, Bitter Ginsburg and my gotTa Sonya soda my or an Atlantic Hagen. I dont want him where he doesn't deserve the same job that those women have. He just doesn't. He doesn't have the
from it, and if a woman acted like that, she would not even be under consideration. I wouldn't like a home for anything which, although you are out of what our language there, I don't want to work with our guy he's he's a good man is yelling screaming Oda mean it that Mercosur the differ
in how many women can respond in situations like this, because if you
Rick having any believe you're innocent you have, but you are right,
we angry at the democratic senators for saying your guilty, but
Christine Blasi Ford has justice
its right to be angry. These Republicans, who have accused her of being a liar
and not just wire basically a partisan cod woman, wrote to the who would
go before the nation make up a story about this
credibly traumatic thing, to derail a confirmation in every be angry in no ability to be angry because of that just
imagine how the robot of seed and then the idea
That area to your point about how the Republicans responded to Cavanaugh does response in the trumpets happy about it, which is clear because
the higher up you go in the asshole index, the more complex that a virtual, so why
we think happens now. It does seem like we ve come full circle and where
back to where we were politically at the beginning of this hearing, which is many Republicans, if not most report,
gains. Not all Republicans in the Senate. We don't know are behind,
Cabinet Lindsey Gram screamed at the end of his temper, Tent Romani totally lost it that I will vote for. You.
And not only will Lindsey vote for him, but in the grand basically than threatened his colleagues and said if any one votes against the sky. You are. You know saying that you,
this kind of destructive politics is the worst thing I've ever seen: Baltic Blah blah blah.
So? We have a lot Republicans and Trump and the White House behind Cavanaugh. We have the Democrats very
against the nomination and, I guess,
we down to Susan Collins, LISA, Mccluskey, Jeff Flake, perhaps any one else well, first of all
if I were a senator and Lindsey Ground, was like vote against your conscience and everything decent in you. Otherwise, I'm gonna get I'm gonna come after you, I'd be like I'll. Take my chances. I think I am pretty sure that most of the women in the Senate can take Lindsey Graph specially.
Maisie Orono has been a real hero during this whole process, and I am you know, I'm pretty sure she could. She could take Lindsey Grammar.
Fight, if not all, if not just through her cunning, but I think that you know like I was saying before. I think that we need to be realistic about what's going to happen with the court and down you touched on this earlier,
like if it's not Cavenaugh, it's gonna be somebody else who is going to be committed to conservative judicial power
feels like overturning row and I think that what needs to happen
how is that between now and election day, everybody who listens to this needs to make sure that the register d
in that everybody that they know and care about, is registered to vote and they need to make sure that
engaged on a local level, because you know we have neglected the look
level for a while. I think that we need to just let's, let's assume, the worst: let's assume the wars, but keep the faith and and and try to carry on as best we can until we get through November. Or do you think
a meaning. Were you right, we're right back to where we started in the sense that a handful of people would decide whether break Heaven,
it's on the corner and none of them in this room, which is probably mistake by the eye,
Do you think that, having heard Doktor Ford on
on television. I think I made
in the ratings come out about? How many people watch this odd, cable, ed streaming or whatever else it's can be pretty here? This is a think this will be.
When people remember for a long time, and I think
whatever else happens with a cabin all vote the politics around this and with the ed. What this moment
means are altered his whether with they had just GM spoke through that ever having heard her speak, and I think I think, as far as the outcome sort of leads
No matter what outcome there is, it leads to an errand said, which is if this nomination falls, because two Republicans vote against him. I do think it's true that the republican base will be
angrier, possibly more energize to vote November, and that's gonna require us to work even harder, and if this nomination goes through and he s in the court, then we're gonna have to keep working. Keep fighting. Keep registering people to vote
and just fucking, eliminate this party alike to heartily welcome her is better best as best we can so either way we're going to be in a big fight here, because you know in its either either
It goes through because Susan Column and Rakowski inflate just say you know we ve,
Your credible butts
same time. We do want to prosecute this innocent man and ruin his life for this, and so we have this cake, but on the other hand right yet here so or they stand up and say you know, no, I found her credible and we can. We can see me. I don't
stay away. This is a politically dangerous thing for Collins, Macaws gear flake, specially flake, whose fucking retiring to say, like I'm, a good conservative. I want a good concern
bit of judge on this court. We should nominate Amy, Barrett tomorrow or Thomas Hartman tomorrow, and get this person through by November and
we still have our political goal of getting conservative justice on and
we may never know what exactly happened there, but she came forward and was incredibly credible today and powerful, and so I had to vote against nomination. What what's that?
but the downside of that politically. At her I mean it being kicked up. He voted off the island yeah, I'm not
invited to lunch with Lindsey Grant. He seems like so pleasant. I think that you know if my rights are gonna be taken away, I would prefer they were taken away by some.
Who doesn't have a history of sexual assault allegations the the
miss discussion on Twitter, which is so
a but is about what the politics of this right is? Does this mean that it's gonna
site. Women devote more and it means going to excite the trunk base, who was in paying attention the midterms no
No no one we have no idea is
Take me, nobody will talking about it now the usual
based on livestock. I get this
from this. Never trumpet Republican were three followers at our russian surname. Who said that now they were going to vote for. I don't know
One thing I running as honey. I can't brought over in
those are done discussions we actually we all decide whether politics are good or bad. We
I'd whether Democrats Bull come out better matter. What happens here or republic come about by Israel
by voting the other Linsey granting. I notice as I was watching him. I recently watched the HBO plug
HBO movie about need a hill and
if they came one day there will be a movie about this.
Emergency grammars come office, a gigantic asshole
I eagerly await the day, and I we
not just in that movie. I thought that this is how Lindsey Graham is going to be remembered. This is like his I mean the that outburst that he had
before we came in here was like nothing I had seen, and he is. I don't. I mean like people speculating like
he auditioning to be the next attorney general's here. Listening to be the next secretary defence, I hope what
for Job Lindsey, Graham, is excited about, is worth what he has done to his legacy
and his integrity in his name over these last couple weeks. With this nomination,
the grim as one of the great whether veins american politics, when we for it would break Lama. First gonna acted in too that we ve gotten absentee. Doesn't nine
the ground was in and out of the West Wing six times a week because
work with us on closing? Get mo passing, can prevent comprehensive immigration, reform, climate change
he was gonna, be the weeds sponsor of Captain Trail a third to end as soon as he saw Republicans.
And go down and primary because a tea party he went far to the right.
He's right here right now because I believe he's up and twenty twenty he just watch his close friend marks Hanford Republican
irish men lose a primary because Trump got mad at him, so he's gonna crawl. His far into
slap as we possibly can to in the primary
is a person who loves being on Sunday chose and being an office in the politics in the principal, her sort of irrelevant to that
yeah he's a great example, and this is another thing we talked about a hysteria this week plug
he's a good example of like what happens when nerds get power
like if you will not relinquish it, they just hold on white knuckles and he the fact that he was work.
With a bomb are trying to work with a bomb on by partisan climate bills and is now screaming about how in a way doctor for it, is as much a victim.
Bert Cavanaugh here which he said twice today once in an intermission Ford's testimony- and I guess it got the reaction that he wanted. So he said it when he was questioning Cavenaugh. Ah, I think that the fact that he went
that too, to that screaming man is, is a testament to his kind of Eddie. Haskins he's just kind of up
person that'll go where the power is in his exact of prison. It shouldn't be in Washington, also threatened Democrats. He said if this is the new norm. You better watch out for your nominees, which I guess is like,
we'll be levelling false allegations of sexual assault against you. If you believe that
their false, which clearly does, and he also
said that I feel ambushed.
Lindsey Graham, is a victim today praising praising earlier this week, Mcconnell use the phrase plow through they're, going to plow through this. This and and Brett Kavanaugh was talking about he's just never going to give up
tried really hard to stop me, but I'm never going, it's like guys think about the context of what your time
about right now, and I know it's not funny, but it kind of is because I need to find something to laugh out right now
so like Tobias, fume, gay, bad working, not only words in discussing this actual tough
on that note.
Yes, so everyone, no matter what votes. If America come go register go, get your friends registered, I mean the all. We ve been saying this:
every day on every single issue in every incident, since Trump one only way we're gonna solve this is at the ballot box. So everyone go do that and when we come back, we
have my interview with category.
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we're gonna brazen shit is that what do you think? What do you think
The rules do not apply to you. Ah
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Did he vomit Eliza at axiom.
on the pod today, we have our friend the pod, whose on last year, one of our best guess on pod, save America Katy, Correct,
Katy, welcome back to the pod hygiene. Thank you,
so much, and you know last time you had me on someone, I think one of you called me a bad ass and I had somebody from a card company.
We make me bad ass cards. I have a bunch of cards, it say, Katy, correct and under it it says bad ass. So, thank you so much for that, because I have some beautiful new calling cards which I
is often enough. You are welcome and also it is a very apt title you are about us, so that's thank you. Uncle had someone may cards for their Nike, very
So we wanted to talk to you because your launching this month, a two part documentary about the interviews you did with Sarah Palin during the two thousand and eight presidential election, its
the payment interviews ten years later. Why did you think this is a
I want to go back and explore the conversations you had with pale and a deck
ago, obviously anniversaries or a good time for that, but downright what were you thinking and not in producing this package? Will you know they were pretty and pay
full interviews, certainly for me professionally. I think in terms of political interviews, I think many people
Remember them. Johnson cabdriver still say to me. Thank you for that
european interview or they'll start talking about it now say. You're welcome depend on their point of view, but you know, I think it was such a
an important moment during the course of that campaign and Brian Goldsmith, who was my political producer, CBS News at the time and is now my podcast partner in crime. We started thinking about it and saying gosh that was a decade ago. How did she set the scene for Donald Trump? What was it like behind the scenes, and so we interviewed all the key players. Obviously, we asked a governor Palin if she was interested in participating. She wasn't, but we talked to Steve Schmidt. We talked to Nicole Wallace, we talked
lawns, who was at the orange see when she gave that incredible speech accepting her parties nomination, I don't know if you remember, John, how I mean she was on fire that night and I think it did give the Obama tee
a little bit of pause. David Axelrod says it didn't and that as usual,
her usual. Then Senator Obama was sort of like let's see how she does in a month, because this is a lot of hard work has taken me six months to get up to speed
we talked to David Axelrod about it and MIKE Murphy and Michael Steel, and so this is kind of like game change on steroids. Word really taking listeners behind
scenes and what was going on in my head and the head heads of everybody at CBS Eve
news when we were getting ready to do it and after we had finished them so actual
definitely right about what Obama said
response. I remember him saying: let's, let's see what happens in a month after that speech, I don't know maybe
acts. Wasn't that worried about the speech. I was worried when she gave that speech of the convention
I remember so tell me I'm I should have interviewed you. David was, I co harm Lahti die, but when
You saw her, I mean it must have, it must have made. You feel slightly trepidation, about what impact she was gonna have on the campaign year, because
look. She was, I remember when she was announced- and I thought you know who is this person?
and you know I was very confused about you know why she was so like didn't. I didn't quite get it and then I remember seeing that speech to the convention.
And I mean it's funny today. We call it trolling, wouldn't really call it trolling back then, but she had so many lines and that convention speech that were sort of just designed
perfectly needle Barack Obama. In the day
got a party in general, but a
that she was mayor of was Zella, which was kind of like a community
organizer and then everybody certain food and then she said, but with real
spots ability road ran over then I do. I just thought it was a speech that the good work
you know, and then she was also. She was sunny indisposition when she gave that speech
right now. She could don't. She delivered a lot of really tough hits on Obama, but she did it with a smile and she saw it
She's she's really look, I she was enjoying herself.
Which are then I don't think we'd ever quite seen anything like her. You know in terms of her. You know her style
her appearance, her belief,
ability with a laugh
of american women at that moment in time you know happy
son that was serving in Iraq, I mean everything seemed to kind of touch on these sort of intangible qualities. That could be quite appealing to a lot of the electorate right right over surer, and- and so I ask you to have that
concern. Basically cuz. Then she has a lot of those rallies which were very successful in a lot of people turned out and suddenly became was getting all these. These huge crowds and I had to concern basically until
and I can remember exactly where I was in the in the campaign headquarters in Chicago, watching your interview with her.
And then you know that's when most of us, I guess about who is right? Well, what what did you think? I'm curious, because when you watch those interviews, what struck you about them? I was struck by the
that she was just I'd, never seen some one running for such a high office
or really any office, Sir,
so unprepared, just on the basics of almost anything
and so like we were at mean we were so shocks and the headquarters that you can hear the gasps for both of us
as we watch this? It wasn't even like anyone was like cheering you're happy at we were just. We were shocked that she couldn't answer a lot of these basic questions. I used microtubules. How did you prepare
here for those conversations like when you were when you were going in
Those interviews. Did you have
certain goal in mind like what made you think that you wanted to get it and ask questions, they got to sort of her basic preparedness for the office,
basic knowledge about politics, a news and current events, I think,
both Brian and I we really worked for like three or four days on these questions and read everything and
I mean we really really try to come up with questions that
would be illuminating for the electorate that would end decayed her ability to be a critical thinker, her knowledge of public policy and really
Her accumulated knowledge through the years of sort of the arc of his
three. If you will end and kind of understanding, some really important issues we interviewed her after she had visited a number of
of leaders at the? U N world leaders- and you know it just felt like she Just- was trying so hard to pronounce
och. Maidenish are correctly, you know and that she had had talked all these leaders, but the financial crisis was served front and centre. So obviously we had to
ask or a lot of questions about the economy and all kinds of things, and you know I think she was just very simply out of her
damn now. I also believe her way of speaking her kind of unusual kind of Cato
send the way she expressed herself. I think it on it. It may
even worse in a way but because she just haddest, you know, as you will recall us a strange way, it s a certain jargon that was thick. That fell different and strange, I think to the people watching or listening to her, but I think we want it to cover everything from soup to nuts. If we could. The first was focused on foreign policy and the economy because of news events, and the second was really focused on domestic policy,
and we just crafted our questions. That would really I mean I think President Obama would have talked for four hours, regret it. If we had asked him the same questions and sort of
an intellectual deliberation as he was answering those questions, but for her I think it just it was just I think, the concepts and and were were really difficult,
to grasp, and you know honestly and fairness as President Obama told
that Axelrod even the most intelligent person whose familiar with public policy it takes a long time
get up to speed your on. So many of these issues I mean I was. I couldn't have answered many of those questions really Intel,
gently and fluently. I mean I didn't have the background on every one of those issues, but it I think it just underscored how ill prepared she was, and during our podcast Nicole Wallace talked about the fact that you know she hadn't kept up with public policy. She just wasn't interested in public policy and there
you now was the problem of what do you remember about your mindset from the interview itself were their moments during the conversation where you remember getting throne
guard at all by where the conversation ended up going. Did you sort of change plan
in the middle of the interview, based on anything that she said not
d. You know you asked me how I prepared- and I did call a number of people on both sides of the Isle, because I was curious like what did they want to know what? What did they think was important for for viewers to hear you know? So I would talk to Richard Hoss about
foreign policy and about IRAN? I talked to SAM Non just cause, I'm I'm I'm a big fan of SAM none, so bout by
logical weapons, because that's an area of expertise for him. I talked to Madeleine Albright and of an end
number of others, and I think it was Madeleine Albright who gave me the best piece of advice. She said just let her talk, so I resisted
temptation to rescue her, and you know when you're doing an interview, especially I think on television. For some reason you especially live television. So this was tape, so it wasn't is bad, but there's this impulse to jump ban if there's dead air and to fill it, but I basically did I resisted the temptation and just let her talk and as a result, the more she talked the more. I think it became apparent that you know she just wasn't
that well versed on a number of these issues, so I thought that was super helpful and, and similarly I I also tried- I don't know for sure,
but I'm sure you do how Charlie Gibson was criticised for putting his glasses at the end of his nose.
And you know you realize on television is such a visual medium
body language, facial expression. Sometimes you know it's a rorschach such tests for a lot of people on they can protect their own anger fee,
leads on to you. So was really important for me to be completely without expression. Yes,
I didn't look at her askance. I didn't look at her critically. I kept a very
almost Parkin Sony. An effect on my face
I knew that that her support,
This would blame me if she had a poor performance and I
didn't want that to happen and an actually after the interview.
Over there were very very few republicans. It started tit to bubble up ass. She said that I am. I asked her gotcha questions, but very few republicans for critical of my
chance or the way I conducted that interview, those interviews, yeah.
For that is that you didn't down even intervened.
Really at all you did. You know you really did so to give her the space to really do the damage
where does the outer guess he said it was that of your strategy and its ill? I was struck by the fact that it wasn't just
It wasn't like you were quizzing her about it.
Secure foreign policy matters. You know, I mean the question. One of the questions are really got her was you know what
that's a one that everyone remembers cause it played on a loop on cable news, and I want to find a found that kind of perplexing, because there were so many policy questions
there, I I still don't. Quite maybe you can
me understand why that so captured the public imagination and got so much attention? I think it's because
there's a lot of Americans who could identify with someone, even though that person is running for vice president, not knowing a specific policy answer to you know whether its foreign policy topic or domestic follows positive.
Because you know most people, people or casual news observers and they pay attention to policy some up at them. They're, not you know, they don't know, details exactly button,
most people do think. If you ask them, what are you? What are you read? They come up with. You know an answer fairly quickly,
or at least not sort of dissemble like she did. You know I mean, like you said it was it wasn't just at her answers didn't make her seem prepared as it partly because of her style of conversation she just sort of and the fact that you didn't sort
interrupt or save her mean that you just had all the space. Just kind of you know garbled
lot of words. So I kept asking her first specific seen ocean
read anything anything they put in front of me and and when I asked her for specifics, I still for
pain plain that morning. Right, maybe she didn't want to say she read the New York Times. May we see about that? Would
her reading the New York Times on her campaign plain that morning. Right, maybe she'll want to say she read. The New York Times may be sure that that would get in trouble with the base and Anne she could have said. I mean I really asked her what
she read on a regular basis that help shape her world view blower. She was tapped and I actually ask that question because you know I found her hurt.
Her ideology to be so. You know specific and she seemed to be
We know very conservative and her views of the world, and I just wanted to know like she could have said in the Bible.
Help shape my political views. She could have said you know what
f Buckley I mean, I don't know, or she could have said you know Katy, it's really from being.
In Alaska and reading every Alaska newspaper every day. Because, though these are my constituents- and this is what I ve learned
You know anything she she could not seem to sort of finance her way out of the question, and I think what
indicated to some people was that that she had this significant lack of intellectual curiosity, and I think, that's probably what was so off putting that
said were met. You know she said people in Alaska Reed and I wanted to say. I know that governor I M not suggesting that I just wanted to know what shape cure,
but she was really annoyed with me at that point. I think she just wanted me out of her line of vision at that point and she said were met. You know she said
people in Alaska Reed, and I wanted to say I know that governor. I am not suggesting that I just me
to know what shape your views and helped him form the
send you are today and the way you see things, but now that was that was so. But finally, I, if
ever run into her, which I probably won't, and we actually maybe had a few glasses
I'd like to ask her. Why why she asked
that way, yeah I would. I would love to know that, so a lot of people have said
and I believe this is well that Pailin her candidacy through paved the way for a Donald Trump. I can't help it think that if you know Donald Trump has given so meant he so many interviews where it is
clear he doesn't know what he's talking about that he's, not really prepare that he doesn't have any kind of grasp on policy, domestic or foreign, and yet
even though he is given these interviews. The impact hasn't been what it was when we you conducted these interviews
pale back, then why do you think that is? Do you think that the media's change you think the american public has changed, pause politics changed since then I think, there's a whole host of reasons. You know. I think that the anti intellectual sent a man now the death of extra
ts and what we ve seen him Breck said and all around the world people mistrusting, you know the elite, academics Et Cetera, wasn't at such a fever pitch back then
ten years ago. I think it was starting to bubble lot. So I think that's one reason that people feel that maybe that makes them feel like the present in is closer to them in terms of how he sees the world he's, not a snark he's not this over educated Ivy League a lead us, I think, maybe there's partially that you know. I think, if a female did that even today, I think she would be judged much more harshly than has. I do think- and I you I'd like to hear your views on this- that when
and are still held, two different standards. There was a study done by a number of California political science that scientists that said coverage of Ferrara and Pale, and that was
or negative- they had more questions about so called work. Life balance. There was a preoccupation with their up appearance, and so
Oh, you wonder still if that might come into play,
even now, certainly if, if it were a woman making these mistakes,
showing this lack of knowledge or even make these outrageous statements that seem to be so readily forgiven by Donald Trump Hard core supporter. So am I?
think the media landscape has changed. I think, sadly, tromp of President Trump has been very effective with this mantra of fake news,
and you know I try not to even use that term, because it so offensive to me in terms of how he tars every one with this brush and this man occur, and I think it is,
permeated entered the culture and a way? So I think that if I were doing
this interview today. It would be easy for Donald Trump supporters to dismiss it as fake news or it was added it
and it was unfair and if they ever saw it because people.
Watching only the outlets that reflect their own views back at them. As my friend, Nicole selling,
as they are looking for affirmation, not information
Can wall yourself off from so much news these days that you know, I think it could be just dismissed out of hand if people ever watched it in the first place. So I think all these factors
kind of come to bear out when you, when you think about how things have changed. But I totally agree that I think serve the partisanship in you know the way the peoples of
the media bubbles, especially on the right, obviously, is, of course, a lot of conservative supporters. Just you know they they would automatically it,
the interviewer and not the person like trumpet, wasn't getting the questions right.
It's interesting? I was gonna. Tell you, John, that I was talking to a friend of mine, who is a cancer scientists cause? I just finished this stand up to cancer telecast, and so I got to spend a lot of time with scientists and he,
it's in Charleston South Carolina, and I said you know what: how do people in the very red state of South Carolina feel about President Trump, and he said well, the tariffs stuff is really hurt,
some you know, the local economy and their upset about that, and I said well what about some of the other things reporting about thinks he's done and who knows what was happening, that we
but I must have for something, and he said they don't believe a lot of it. They say it's fake news here
I believe it must actually feel in their own lives or see in their own lives. You know, which is why I am like you said why the tariff issues actually had an impact. I do that
or if there is another issue too, and I also think by the way what you said about sexism is absolutely right. I think there are different standards for
women who run for office and men who won for office. I think that is a big reason why the payment in patent pollinator
He was more impact, will then a similar interview with Trump, the only other thing,
I wonder, is I a in
I'd- love to hear what you think about this as a journalist and someone who's interviewed, so many people in your career,
I think that today a lot of people, one journalist when they interview Trump, they sort of heavy a set of questions and topics that they want to get too.
And so and Trump knows that, and so when they ask one question- and he starts
dissembling or gobbling on and not really answering the question. They know they have won
like seven or eight minutes until they quickly move on to the next topic
But I have no doubt that the the one
interviews that are most successful in terms of sort of exposing trumps lack of knowledge,
preparedness or does the fact that he lies quite often are those who interviewers who sort of throw away the script
and stay on that one topic and go out again and again and again
and I wonder if, if you ve noticed that two wars are, how would you prepare for an interview with Donald Trump
thrift today, knowing what you know about how what his strategy is like during interviews, I mean, I think I would appeal cash
I really thought of this because I haven't had a
opportunity. But I I think I would appeal to sort of his behaviour and try to understand, and I will try to see if there are
any recognition, a realisation that his behaviour is grossly inappropriate at times, and you know how he's changed the office man of the presidency, and I don't think I think I might it sort of go to
that way you about sort of decency in a way that didn't put him on his heels. But in a way that I expressed real interest almost like a therapist, I might go that route because I think, if you present him with facts, are figures hill just
present you with his own facts and figures right they'll become null and void. So you know, I would just like to
stand more about the way he's operating and the way he sees his responsibility as the present, the united
dates. You know when I see some of his advisers on television it becomes so confrontational and antagonistic that I feel that sometimes interviewers, don't you know, have an opportunity or dont choose to be a little more artful with how they unpack an issue,
you know, if someone makes an assertion instead of saying they're wrong, I'd like to really get them to explain,
they're making that assertion and on what basis, but they they never get a chance to kind of, have an opportunity to try to explain themselves and to go a few steps eating a few inches deeper into any particular issue.
And a well prepared interviewer should, in my opinion, be able to dig a little deeper instead of just focus on the boxing match. If you will
yeah and that sort of a function of just the way the media has
and over the years too, because now you know, there's like eight heads in little boy
taxes on television all yelling at each other, all at once it has become
Well when you log organization, they think people are tuning and for
the fight and may be re. Are you know like who one who got the better of that person? But for me it's it's frustrating and unsatisfying, because I'd I dont want to see who got the better of them. You know who had the pithy or come back. I want to actually understand why they say the things they say and why they think that
they think the central Katy heard. Thank you. So much for coming back on pod, save America and himself and to talk to you, John and when is that when the documentary on its out thirsty.
Excellent, which in the end is actually two parts. The first part is kind of the build up to the
your views and some of the our experiences Brian and I did it together, conduct you note for me conducting hemp.
Bearing and witness seen it and then this
in part, is sort of how she was treated in terms of
gender and how she diverged from John Mccain in terms of her campaigns, style and rhetoric, and
and really how she paved the way with the lame stream media diem,
icing that the free press in this country, which you know I know you agree- is just a terrible thing to do, and so undemocratic and very ill advised in my view, so it sort of like how she how she paid the way for for President Trump and what
happening in today's political landscape judgment or is called the pale and interviews ten years later
very excited to listen to this. I can't wait for it to come out so we'll be there
less than everyone else. Take a lesson and thank you, Kate
her out for joining us. Ok thanks so much
thanks again to Katy Correct for joining us, thanks, Harrington Dan for being here on this
day, I've been here for so long that is common in the morning for eyes, like a little go to my real work and then no just been sitting in the office staring at this. They know
welcomed our job would watch, cable and tweak. Everyone was the next week
Transcript generated on 2020-04-01.