This donkey series chronicles the men in your family and the very dark secret. They kept your grandfather There are many hammer built an oral entire and in the donkey series you say that your family was a million times worse than the show succession which is saying something. So how much of that grasping for power impact or family? I mean you, have you no life grandfather father, my brother. It was all vying for control all buying to get my grandfather's. Attention was more. for show on the outside than it was to be behind the doors and be a loving happy go lucky family unity. Just wasn't happening. My father was in and out a mental institutions, and things need be covered up. He murdered someone and my grandfather turn that in and made it self defence and covered it up back. Then my grandfather had a long journeys

The The this episode is brought to by pass cock, presenting the original, limited series of friend of the family stunned the story of the jan brokered kidnappings from nick and Tosca executive producer of act and candy and director pretty Sir eliza hitman comes a dark and compelling look at the harrowing story through a new lands produce with I'm broke herself, the series Stars anna pack, when jake lay see collen, Hanks LEO Tipton and mckenna grace stream now only on peacock

the hello everyone and welcome to real crime profile, at least to somebody. I'm a casting director who has plenty of experience, casting sociopath and domestic abusers and corrupt billionaires on the grifter and all kinds of offenders, but I've never cast of external family. That has as many shocking secrets as the real family that we're gonna continue covering today, but before we get to that with me, today is Yes before we get to that, let's do our intros laura richards criminal behavior, analysts, former new scotland yard and host of the podcast crime. Analyst and antonym clemente retarded beer profile of former new york city prosecutor and writer producers. Cbs is criminal, mind and why are you where you coming to us from sheep? I am actually in the very spooky room actually in spice, gape spies gape is the spy museum in your city, I'm speaking here with a bunch of other three letter agency people about our careers.

about certain aspects of how media covers our careers, so it's kind of fun and interesting, but it is also very spooky. So here I am in new york city coming to you live by escape anywhere, just wearing a mass Jim, which I'm in a post a picture of it, so that everyone- and see what we saw when Jim lockdown say very soon. Given that it's halloween coming up his well, why I October is my favorite one for all kinds of reasons that please tell us, laura whites the special piazza especial moms, because its domestic violence awareness month as well so all over the world, poor unites, gave victims and survivors voice and a platform and one of the key plank that is also holding abuses to account so I think is really important that we're having this conversation across domestic law, it's awareness month and as part of that lots of people are posting.

putting posts up and then now, including coercive control, which is fantastic, say for me to see you know having spearheaded by law reform in england and wales. We want to see people, including coercive control and every investigation of actually published numa pace as well on their instagram, including coercive control, but what I will also say that often times people are not defining it accurately and if, as I saw on discovery, it's me pasted as- and I just want to read out what peoples to mistake, coercive control is being in, and it's just a small part of the definition that people keep using, which is coercive control is an actor a pattern of acts of assault threat, humiliation and intimidation or other abuse that is used to harm, punish or frighten their victim. Now

not for me only describes a part of what coercive controllers so really I want people to thinking about what Innovation is, of course, a control, and that is our two domination, adding exploitation and entrapment is actually far. why then, the pattern of acts itself is about how somebody becomes entrapped to and how their vulnerabilities are exploited and how someone seeks to utterly dominate them or not. The distinction that is important too makes. people can look on my website nor richards decayed uk. It is currently being revamped at the moment she, but it's available and a new. website will be coming, but there's a lot of information there about coercive control and breaking it down in it. It is important, Jim nice that people don't just take a tiny part of the definition and and publish it, because Actually, it sounds just light domestic abuse, and this is far more insidious and is in a equates or

relates, I should say, would lethality and that's why Fourteen that we highlight it, we identify specifically will that's when you read laurie. I just made me think of the things that you ve been trying to teach us. There are so many more new one says to the spiritual breakdown some of the mental breakdown of somebody and and it's not always the big red flags, but it's these little tiny needles and pins that people experience, but it's like gaining the ultimate. power and control over someone, but in an insidious way in that it may not be obvious to people on the outside, and this control is its. It it's it's can slowly. I guess it could have been more rapidly, but it can slowly surround someone actually do from all of their friends, family and resources, and also make them feel like they are incapable of escape, and that you know, and in many cases it is very its. It is very difficult, if not

possible to escape because the finances are controlled. The movements are controlled there that their ability to talk to others is controlled. It is a very all encompassing way of gaining complete control and, as you say, dominance over person That is not stir important point to make and the attack on someone's agency their autonomy and also those structured inequalities within society. The make particular female victims entrapped further. So it is not much more than just what's being described on dont lots of charities websites. I she is not just that one pay I've, seen it across lots of different websites its given that I still train on their side promised a class is needed to master classes just this week, getting up at five a m talking to professionals. This was in the u k about forensically deconstructing worse of control and how it most of it does look invisible. So that is

port, and I was they just want to address a couple of comments that come into awesome: real crime, pray for germany, sir, that's a few people send it I wish laura wouldn't talk about coercive control and it's repetitive and you know what I wish I didn't have to talk about it. I wish that we didn't have to keep. I tend to find it in cases, and I wish the it was something that happened bert. That common is akin to saying. Don't talk about abuse or don't talk about rape. Don't talk about Doctrine of children because of selective and we're not here to tell a grisly story about a murder and exploit a victim reopened. Fathers about raising awareness and education eating. So I make no apology for identify. Coercive control for highlighting it it may well. Save a life and death really important say I make no apology for that, and I know often most are real crime profile. Listen is here because I want

would be educated. They want to help victims and they want to hold abuses to account. So if you want to with us on our c p. A nice is part of your mission, we're all for it, but please don't write to us and say ridiculous things, Not because I make no apology for what may be repetitive prisoner, not everybody, has been with us since the beginning. Some people find us and it's important that you know what will ever their tuning in whichever episode that they hear the correct definition so rapidly. Also would when you talk and until there is no case that exemplifies that we we have to keep talking about it. What what are we going to do pretend it doesn't exist if there are examples, of course, of control in a particular case that show that can durkheim illuminated a nuance, albeit that somebody didn't understand, didn't know it could also educate people how to avoid getting caught in that web and and being able to identify in their own lives. Where this

might be happening or where it might be happening to a loved one or friend. I saw or colleague at work, all right, so you'd think it were saying it too much we're covering the cases that are real. I mean if, if the officers in in the Gabby potato case had been educated, if they had known the first thing about coercive control. They may not have left her in a situation which ended up with a brutal murder by the quote: man who hopefully loved her exactly german ass. It is what I was thinking of as I'm still deep, diving the case. If people on this empowering balance, and that's the first thing that you know when you attend to call out then you're already two states forward and understanding why Gabby might apologize, why she might take responsibility and why Brian is cool lee calmly laughing o king talking about going on a high can being so choose

to control those. Officers and we see the parent control dynamic being played out cause he's trying to manipulate. So I made no, Did you every cases differ from. I try and help. People was given these want to as well that submission of r r poured car so without having been said, because it is something this you know being on my mind, seeing people take their time and energy to right. Sir arson safe things like don't talk about it, you know, gone to another podcast, because I'm not gonna stop my mission. Think it's a really important mission, particular when the famous I'd rate is so high, sire unjust We talk about violence against women and girls and I'll, say it one. Last time it doesn't mean I hate men, it doesn't mean to say on the mass Andrews I just the voice for females for through education through the word that I've done and many victims like gap they no longer have a voice and we have to be their voice, and I will not let them become footnotes.

In their own murders and that's where we started from actually wasn't at germany. So when we think about nicole brown simpson and how she became a footnote in, we refuse to let that happen on real crime profile, we will always honour the victims. Just just two. little caviar too, that the same guy for him. Yet same with RON goldman, I mean I have the pleasure of serving on a board with Kim goldman and she is still trying to get people not to let her brother also be a footnote, and- and it's just it's sad- that she still reports today- that people attack her on lie that they they tried to make it look like somehow It was her brother's fault and not the fault of the person who actually murdered them both. So it's just it's a terrible thing, but that's why we're here we're here to keep giving them their voice back and

we're not gonna shut up, and you know what jim is just such a horrible thing when families are- saving end of that bullshit is damaging for them, wrong, trying to be a good friends in a co, and yet, came is building a horrible messages and to be on the receiving end of that when they ve done nothing, on the family have done nothing wrong. They're trying to, still deal with the legacy. Of a very violent and brutal murder, and that legacy goes on and on and on, and that it just, I mean continental why people would write such horrible message. it shows a distinct lack of empathy and that's a maid In addition, we should think very carefully before we start firing off messages, irrespective One we're on line and the impact that that has on people, but particularly victims of crime is horrific, but we are, talking about legacies today, we're going to be returning to the house of hammer

knock you series, the three part it has had. not a controversy attached to it. We talked about effie before and one of the things of course that we, Where is the if he didn't want to take part- and we discussed in the last episode, germany, so that Gloria Eldridge already took part. There has been a fall out from that because, if he didn't agree to her taking part and now Gloria no longer represents effie, since we recorded so speaks volumes to me. That's, that is that it is not only appropriate, but that speaks volumes right and Let's face it when a lawyer says I know, what's better for my client than my client does, or I don't care. What my clients wishes are I'm going to do it anyway. It doesn't seem like representing their clients.

Weekly, given fees, complaints that she felt like her abuse is being exploited and that's her complaint about the documentary. we obviously I'm real crime profile, we want to support victims and effie absolutely birth. We you think, that's an important ducky series to deconstruct because there are so many aspects to it and new women have spoken out and is a difficult balance? Is we ve talked about? We do talk about casey over one of the few. I did learn from Effie and I'm interested to hear your What's german these there is that army hammer has now high at criminal defence attorney blair, burke, who is harvey. Weinstein's lawyer, This is obviously harvey wine schemes. Do. Backing call on Monday is facing charges and allegation, that- relate to eleven women, so that's happening on october ten but the army hammers back in allay he's been cited. Numerous times and the fao

but he's now underway adopt with a criminal defence attorney. I'm wondering I don't want to. it's easy to make four. But is this l a p d, gearing up to a decision regarding charging of Armie hammer? I hope so, when you're represented by criminal, the journey. That is a real possibility. There is no guarantee that it happens, but at least he feels like the fact that that the allegations about him or now The public that the chances of him being arrested were probably have increased. Their did really It was back in l a and you know scene out, dining out, and you know the the lines I keep hearing is working us on his sobriety and he's been out golfing and you know I didn't know about. I don't know anything about the charges if they're coming or not, but I have no doubt in my mind that he's gonna work again as an actor I mean I just I just know

will happen and that's just the way it goes for offenders. You know it it's quite the opposite for victims, but there seems to be no end of second chances. For you, I mean there really is no cancel culture. Is there I mean well, there's a cancel culture or victims or victims for people who speak their mind or people have a certain point of view. That's different than the people want to cancel. One of my colleagues reached out to me the other day because she she's got a private investigation firm. and she has now spoken to some. Some people were victimized by some very prominent actors and they are very very reluctant to come forward. Their very reluctantly do anything about it, but it looks like they might and we'll see. You know what happens to these very powerful actors, because you know they felt they were both.

proof and its possible that they still are. But the fact is that at least you know these two people that that that we were discussing have done a lot of damage to a number of young girls and their just live in their life and doing their work as if nothing had happened and will see what happens with common space in new york and anthony rap. Was you know, testifying telling the truth about what term alleged becoming spacesuited him when he was fourteen years old and- and the comments are just disgusting against anthony. Questioning him at every turn, and and and thinking that he's got kind of motive. he's gonna help. His career is just it's just really heartbreaking. Small business owners protect what you ve dealt with more than thirty customizable insurance cover job

including commercial, otto, general liability and business owners policies plus get personalized discounts for business experience prior insurance and more get a quote in as little as six minutes at progressive commercial dot com, progressive casualty, insurance company and a failure discounts uncovered selections not available in all states are situations bishop of it too, but I hope that we'll talk about it and that is qc hammer, because for me, with its documentary the by far I think the most important part of it was really digging into her life and when we we're just describing earlier victims, of course of control, I mean I just having read cases book- I'm surviving my birthright wow, the things that she had to survive, the things that she says. It's you

through just seen, laura like this generation all course of control of this male entitlement, devastating consequences for the generations of women in this family, and it's just amazing to me and I think less episode I had that. Wasn't graded expressing myself and afterwards I had a bit the display this carrier soon after we recorded at just I was talking about bothering me about seeing all the text between army hammer and his intimate partners that was covered by dumont dmz and that the documentary showed and was. Bothering me is that there was all this sort of drew leaning over the king, but really not thinking about the victims, and it just goes to show that cases had her story out now, three years about all the abuse that she suffered by allegedly her brother

molesting her just constantly and her upbringing and her father resting her her father, just abusing her mother constantly and yet no consequences for them and no press, nothing so anywhere wicked. Certain break that time today will the things that you said about people drooling over this sort of kink, while it's not kink to commit a crime ever that is not king. That is not a quote legitimate sexual practice. That's a crime and will never it's a violent crime. It's a serious felony and it will never be a legitimate, and so we have to be very clear, drawing a bright red line between consensual activity between adult consent.

in human beings and non consensual, violent crimes and wherever that line is ever crossing, it will always be a violent crime, and it doesn't matter like if your penalties are to commit violent crimes, as were described in some of the text that we saw in the series that the fantasy of raping someone and somebody try. You know crawling away trying to escape and begging for mercy that that is what turns somebody on war that that can only be trouble fantasizing about it, engaging in sexual activity. Thinking about that masturbating to read force that arouses powder. All those things are incredibly wrong: they're, not just king, and we we need to stand our ground about that. That distinction. It will never change

so lately- and I think we ve done K c lisa, Jim just listening to her talk multiple times on her interviews. In as she said, she wrote the book as part of her healing journey, but it was a self polish bird. Can that's probably why it's just this very open and on the count he went on and very earnestly. I think even the way, she describes stuff- it's just clear, is just normal to her, but to other people its jarring too, to read the things into here. The things she was subjected to, but the problem is when it's just normalized and its around you, time it does jar with you, it doesnt phil abnormal cause. That's the only thing that that you knew- and I mean casey said that her grandfather controlled everything and when her mom, bearing in my as a whole legacy of domestic abuse in the way that all the men treated their partners, and we talk about the grandfather specifically in what his wife said about him, but he can

the narrative when cases mother try to leave. He said if you like my son, I would destroy you and that's what he did no he's not only talking to talk is walking the walk, he's, throwing these threats stana, making it clear he has the power and control on case, It's if you look pretty you'll be taken care of, so we say that a whole generation of women and girls not being valued and lack of accountability for the and in every generation of the men you know, least, when you said at the opening, that's pivot, to talk about casey. It's actually all the same the same stuff that we're talking about people, whether it We know all kenny or wine steam cosby. How did they get away with it for so long and it's because of leverage because a power is because of status and why

that we look as you talked about, even with Kevin spacey without victims who come forward? What is it about our culture and society? Where we scrutinise what a victim says, we look to poke holes in it. We immediately move too. She must so he must be lying, and yet we get it. the trade narrative that goes widely and why lee and challenged- and we so we brine laundry. He just spews a narrative. No one challenges him. Not one of those four offices said: will you grabbed her by the face? Tell us about that. She says ex: that's, not True he's not challenge once, and so I do want to come. break out into that. Why did this discourse before we go deep concern two cases narrative of? Why is it? The people Society, including all listen is. Why is it that a little voice in the head immediately goes to scrutinise? What

It's him saying what to survive is saying is if they cannot be trusted. Well, I think war. It is almost always linked to power celebrity that they are so invested in love, quote love for this celebrity or this powerful person that they refuse to believe that there could be something negative about them. We have to understand. As human beings, humans are very complicated. Nobody is one dimensional. Everybody has multiple sides multiple faces. They wear my

well masks most multiple interactions that they have and you can have somebody who's, incredibly talented in in an area or ten areas or a hundred areas, but they can also in the privacy of their own mind, be very demented, be very soon. I was going to say, sick, but very psychopathic. They can be very sadistic. They can be incredibly good at hiding who they really are, and if we don't realize that and we keep calling these people monster, predators, people look away. From the quote nice guy or nice girl that they see every day or they seem on tv or they hear their music or whatever. They think that defines the person and I'm here to tell you that is not the case because time, the time after time we'll see people who are so well accomplished in any bill.

We still have this nefarious hidden insidious, dark side that they are very, very cable hiding and if the more money they have the bigger walls they can build, and we saw that with caused me. We saw a with Michael Jackson. We sought now with the hammer family, so people should not be surprised that that people are just gonna blindly follow their their idols, their celebrities there. You know, I can't because they think that there are perfect because of the thing that they like that they do. But it's just It's a fallacy, a complete and utter fallacy that law, even when case he told her mother, her own mother, searched don't talk about it. I don't believe you No, it's just so interesting and, of course, her mother was being abused terribly as well, and she I she loved her son so much she just did not want to hear not only about you know her son, possibly abusing her own daughter, but

her husband, who she knows, is capable of violence and and been so out of control. Just didn't she just wanted to close your ears and not talk about it and that let the truly the story of cases whole life is just being ignored. I mean it's just heartbreaking. When you read her book, I mean she's she's, just completely forgotten. They literally forget about her. They forget that she's, not in the car, when the family goes to dinner, early drowns when she's at I'll, because they just forgot about her and when she she miraculously. I just you know and she's kind of washed up on the surf and she kind of titles back to her family she's in trouble, because where were you I mean it's just it's just a just a really brutal brutal depiction

which words your points, her mother, didn't believe her or wouldn't believe her I'll find it yeah difficult simply at her to compartmentalize and maybe deal with her own trauma as well, is listened to someone else's trauma knife. I think that's another important point right when you be in used you become a nation in this regulation and therefore, if you piper vigilant. You get stuck in high provision and saw you and I defending yourself to march- because everything is on say before- perhaps you, but much more introverted, whatever behaviors we see the victim ten, to be blamed for that and it's very hard to have capacity in space and bandwidth when somebody else your child being abused or someone else is being a be used. So I think that the abuse It's just has so many layers to it that when a man who's been abuse can accept that her daughter is being a b

used or maybe feels that she's doing her best, which was maybe mum unaccountable. for her, but maybe she felt taking that big decision to separate was the biggest step that she could. Hate to try and safeguards casey in the dark. He says we see that returning, don't we, the she left, retiring. There was abused, violence and should go to the local may tell, and then she would go back and we know that on average, it takes a woman seven times to leave the abuser, but by leaving the abuse or in a family who have this much power who tells you that they were Destroy you, if you leave your husband that is incredibly courageous for her. Then, to take the next step and of course, she ends up with nothing and he's doing her best to survive. Power. Imbalance again is key. Isn't it with a family? Like this, you have a huge amount of money, and power and then not afraid to use it. I mean that's,

hurry disabling and disempowering, maybe c mon did the best she could say so I also think it very easy for us to go into that mode of where my mom didn't protect me, but it's very difficult to win you, can't even keep yourself say from when you leave just with holding your children. One hand, say either old and you leave in the middle of the night, with just the clothes on your back, and you have nothing else what are your choices in your options, so I always have to my mind, is I work these cases its no day in day out and I think casey be incurred, be courageous, coming out to tell a story, because that power is still there within the family. And if we do You know I'm in hammers the the grandfathers, wife, Angela of what she said, she said Is the master psychological warfare and she feared him, and I think my husband because he hopefully a malicious me use count.

Later tactics designed to destroy her will now in what she says. In essence, that is, coercive control and the way that she does describes. It is so powerful that I get the best so who he was from her, there, the women that were in his life and he used women and women were not valued They were just used in objectified and if that's how he treated angela, then that's the ah that's being set for everybody else in the family in and he executed in it. He sound did to me. My Epstein You know he knew how to use leverage to blackmail people answer totally control them any created this image of some former wealthier then he actually was. He ghastly lots of people safer casey, as it's like being stuck in a spider's web. You can see all the invisible parts of the web, but other people can't see it

and how do you extricate yourself? How does how did her mom extricate herself so difficult work? Can you just find what emotional this regulation is, because I've only just come across this term and it pinged for me, but maybe people haven't heard it Therefore, yes, I'm in it something that people don't really about because it's not spoken about. If the impact of abuse of, if you are being abused over time- and of course we can- ass a controlled way? You're very essence. It is being destroyed, but way. Everything that you do. You have look to another person of their reaction before, or you can react to anything so if you just think about it. In those terms, your emotions are true to you, your constantly pushing things down, and this is where post traumatic stress can occur and part of that post. Traumatic

stress. I see many climbs emotional, this regulation and if we think about Gabby potato, What we were seeing on camera was this. She was dysregulated right, she's crying she's, I wouldn't say she's hysterical, but we can hear she was in distress. He was in distress, right, Jim and I that's an important distinction to make, because the police officer wrote it up, but she was manic that she was fuse that she was emotional, so he bumped on this ho stereotype of the emotional woman whose confused and can't be trusted in her account, I saw emotional dysregulation, because she's constantly achieving two brian being having to be careful about her reactions. So therefore, everything can potentially be fred. You start reacting in a way If your outside of understanding her context, a narrative, you think that she looks she's being dramatic she's trying to get her. russia's crying hysterically as some take me. The police officers

dr terror, so that's it over I provisional imps- that we see a basic means all your emotions are out of sync and then what we tend to do is pathology eyes, partake they. If its women, we pathologies and by saying oh alongside it, got bored line a disorder, and they may even be diagnosed with that were actually it's a normal response. Two trauma and having your emotions in your reactions being bound up in dictated and determined by someone else. So I just stay as it connected article dependency or trauma bonding are those all part of the same family of it is if we think about children growing up in homes where there's an abuse- and we know that for. They are constantly and we know with babies, I'm seeing it with Raffi, now he's a tuning and attaching and you try and I will back when he smiling. I tried to bring healthy, emotion right if he were fear for, though the time he would become emotionally disregard latent

he he wouldn't have normal responses to things. He would be hyper vigilant always watching for the next thing to happen now We can see in young children and a baby's of how being achieved. And adjusted with their primary caregivers. So we see We can see it very young but often times it's the the baby, the child, the women, the man whose the victim that become so the ties and maybe have a mental health label attached to them and often times it's the wrong label. I mean BP day is the most over used? I acknowledge: stick. in a disorder that tends to be used? In my opinion, most often times for trauma- and if we switch. I'd had some one of my listens and bits listeners in particular. crime. Analysts message me to say: for thirty years I was abused. I was diagnosed with bpd and from listening to your pockets, I've come back to my psychotic. chris and now

he's diagnosed me will pity s post, traumatic stress. He wondered why I wasn't responding to treatment when, though, not going to work that treatment, if you just you ve got trauma and if you ve got trauma, you come of course be treated. We talked about that before, so it it's in every structure of life wherein doesn't serve anyone to mason stan what's happening if you're, the victim of abuse, whatever that abuse might be, is gonna going to impact new psychologically emotionally in how you To write with others in the world, well, we have so much more to talk about these incredibly disturbing topics, but we hope you'll come back and listen next week as we continue our discussion about the doktor

the three series about the hammer family as well as other very disturbing trends that we're seeing in our world and in it is about time things change so we'll see next weekend. For now this is real crime profile. Signing off real crime profile was created by Jim Clemente, laura richards and leases and betty produced by richard leases, embedding Jim Clemente an extra productions and distributed by wondering editing by nick war, ski at podcast monster logo, art by implementing music composed and performed by simba, summa.