A prime members- you can listen to real crime, pray fall ad free on amazon, music, download the act today, sir. Said by penguin random house, five survive by honey jackson. eight hours, six friends, five survive. From the number one new york times best sunning author of the international sensation, a good girl, I too murder comes in, thriller. That begin with the right trip the tonnes steadily in the end, who will survive by or give now at penguin random house dot com site still appears to be vacant. and emotionless even with the mask on one day after Victor murderer, Scott Petersen was recently in a redwood city, courtroom peterson's, half sister, says she still has no doubt that he's guilty of killing his prey no wife lacey on christmas eve, two thousand too

behaviour that I witnessed from Scott after lacy disappeared was not that of grieving husband or a father to be. It was that of a roving bachelor in the weeks after Lucy's disappearance, Scott Petersen sometimes stayed with bird and her family at their berkeley. Hall, went to the store and got cocktail mix to make something sixteen ease and he was serving them to our baby sitter. Just the lack of interest and looking for lazy was very apparent. the in the

hello and welcome to real crime profile on leases and amy casting director have a real interest in real crime and these magnificent mines that saw these crimes and tracked down what really happened and cut through all the noise on these high profile cases that we are still talking about. Eighteen, years later and with me today is I'm Jim Clemente retired at the high profile or former big city prosecutor right producer of CBS is criminal minds. And I'm laura richards criminal behaviour, analysed families. but yard and hastily to podcast crime analysed and we're back discussing detail the case of late see and the unborn baby as far I am concerned, Conor Petersen, it's really horrific case. It's so distressing unjust because time this past. It makes it now less distressing

her family? Who, my goodness, They ve gone through three say more and they may well be going through, the trial in the future. We don't know yet, but where we live, of germany, sir. We were going through the timeline in detail and we heads taught december the twenty third and I think we really to cover now december? Twenty fourth, which christmas eve and, of course, A lot of this is also from Scott peterson's account. So that's what we have to bear in mind that there are some time date stamps for certain activities are there. There are some receipts, so can start to build a coherent picture of what Tom said he wants to start us off. I just have a question before we get into what's got. Peterson's has happened that morning, what do we know exactly when he was seen leaving the home morning december, the twenty fourth christmas eve morning, presumably honest

the work we are about to get into that time line, LISA, so we do do? We do have a receipts yeah right. There is a receipt from him, making a cool to pick up his voice mouse. Now it does tell us exactly where he is from the mast, but it does. have a seat he's on his way to the warehouse and that's where he said he was gonna go and that time is ten. I wait in them winning. So this is a very important is the very important because he says that she goes up at eight a m, and now it's two hours later.

he's somewhere on his way to the warehouse which isn't far from their house, which is fairly close to their house versus where he ended up going fishing, which was ninety minutes away so yeah. We know that somebody logged onto the computer there's a difference between you know, searching for specific items and pop ups coming up, but I don't know what happened. But the fact is, we don't know who logged onto their computer, whether we're scott or lacey, but it was one of them and it may be that Scott did it and it may be that lacey did it. I don't know, but it was right around that time where Scott called in for his messages that their next door neighbor found their dog with the leash on wandering in the street in front of their house, and she sees the dog there and brings a dog to to the side gate and puts

dog into you, know the side gate, so he could go into the back yard and the significant thing about that is. That was specifically timed at about ten seventeen o ten eighteen em, and although there are a number of people who quotes cited, lacy walking the dog, though sightings were all after that time were all after ten seventeen. I am so, though sightings not that these people were lying, but they may have gotten the day wrong. They may have seen her the day before and confused it. As we know, I witnessed testimony is the least reliable testimony that can come into a court of law. But it is something that many many times people just get wrong. I mean, if we go back to that, computer search midnight, computer law,

gone. Whoever it was by anything is important that we can't say who is by, but inferences have been made to the sunflower was thing the lay see how to I too have a sunflower on her and she did love some flowers. I think a lot of people have made the inference that it was lazy, but we don't Do we we don't know for sure I mean you could have the situation where sky logged on and she's just jumped on the computer, You know she's looking at things, but not specifically at those items and, of course we know without algorithms they get very clever it. Picking out things that you like now what, basically said. Is I just want to get back up, because this was his account. He said that they wake carpet about eight and eight syria and that may see eight cereal and he explained because she was pregnant. She felt sick. An F or eating was important. Well, eight months, you're kind of

either nausea awry certainly was so I thought that was out there, but he talked about noisy errands. That's why she ate, straight away, but that may have been the case in the dead watched, Martha Stewart and, if when it comes to what happened at court, he did quite accurately quote what was or Martha Stewart which is making the ranks, and we know that lacy was into cooking and so on. So we what about relevant. Well, it did become relevant a core because garriga space of each. What was in the opening statement by the prosecution where they got some of the details wrong, and I think that her case around ability so again a minor d how that might not seem significant of what show it was when it was watch. What were they talking about war again, gara gas room to not the credibility of the prosecutions case, and it wasn't the first time just around the timeline and what went home and Jim

We also knew was not just someone looking onto the computer, but nine thirty, two, ten thirty, is what, when the time that scots says lazy, his mopping the floor, which again I thought was very peculiar, given that the housekeeper had been the day before. Why would she be mopping the floor early the next morning and of course, we know he gave an account when Diane sawyer pressed him on it and he said well. We ve got a dog and anti cats and she didn't follow up on the question and re, but it was early in the morning you could not if it relates in the day but why would she be removing the the early when they ve only just gotten up and that that didn't make sense to me? Well, what makes more sense is that he used to cover it up. He was quick thinking, but the fact is that he filled up that bucket with water and if there was a crime scene in the kitchen, the probably used it to

to clean it up and that that's why he had dimension and that's why he he said that she was mopping floor, but You know clearly here's a guy who, who doesn't give a damn about her in his own account, He will leave heard a marked the kitchen floor at eight months pregnant while he goes off fishing and he thinks that's a wonderful thing and that to show you what kind of person he is and for all these people who fall for him, who think he's like in o god's gift art there just there just falling for this crap this this completely incomprehensible. You no bullshit story that he gave, and I agree you know it. It might make him a lousy husband, which he is christmas, eve and he's going off and leaving her to do these chores and any calls had to give her another chore. On top of all, that has just been off having a laugh,

the time on the water. I mean that is not a glorious relationship. Quite frankly, this is a man who did think of a lot of things. This is a man who set up a bunch of things in advance. He tells his girlfriend that he's having an affair with that his wife is gone for the holidays. Okay, that's how far in advance he's planning these things, because he just thinks. Well, you know she's going to be gone,

this is going to be out of my hair. Nobody's gonna, be able to find her I'll just go on and have my affair, and then you know get with amber until I'm tired of her. But the fact is that he engaged in a lot of staging. If he's the one that killed, lacy and connor, then he engaged in a tremendous amount of staging to try to cover up and give himself some credibility he knew he couldn't have. He didn't have an alibi for the time she was actually killed. So what he had to do was come up with a story and then salt it with little tidbits of truth so that he could weave his lies around them and that's what liars do I mean they try to take a little bit of of the truth and then weave a story. A lie, a fabrication around it. Yes in us what we see him doing consistently across the relationship with amber and quite possibly with the two other women that he

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use code, Mary tan, that's m e, R R. Why ten at check out for ten percent off your first purges? That's code, mary, ten maximum value of fifty dollars offer in december. Thirty. First thousand twenty two c terms at ass. He d come slash terms so we ten or wait, he coups his voice. Now we get a time stamp on that he gave to the warehouse nine minutes away, uses his. pew today is another time date stamp and you said Jim, what's going on at home. Well, ten eighteen is what I've got documented. His neighbor current pcs mackenzie their lab outside the home, with the leash on she puts the dog back a yard shots the gate between ten, fifty seven eleven fifteen- I am scott, says he cleaned up his office and assembled in. You saw a new tool that he had ordered

and then he decides not to play golf because it's too cold and he drives tube in the reign. The hour and thirty six minute drive and in ninety minutes is a long way to go. Particularly he's got the receipts right. So we know he was there. He launches the boat. I think it's it at he's, got the receipt for twelve, fifty four that's what he gives to the play. So is nodding contention where he was his back. I too eleven and there isn't it home by a number of people saying that they just watched him trying to put the boat in the water and to get the boat out of the water, so that would caught his fishing time right. We we have to agree on that right, say he's probably, fishing for an hour, maybe less than an hour. That's a long way to go forward with such a short period a hurry hours of driving. At least you know twenty minutes. Maybe thirty minutes of getting in both getting out of the water. Three that's three

half hours wasted, one hour fishing trip. Well, when we talked to Bobby to cone working, find out a hell of a lot more. He is the head the f b I's dive team. He created the user deemed underwater search and recovery team, and he was actually part of this investigation, and he has some really interesting insights that he's going to share with us at really put all of this fishing trip into context, efficient trick where he gazed may to brook silent. which is where he said that he fished and we're gonna Bobby about that. But the simple some, because we know that he did some searches for fishing for the current said the tide spit the brook sign and specifically in

December at thirty december, two thousand and nine or ten. So that's interesting that he's we're doing the research then for a trip that just turned out to be spur of the moment, but the fact that he spend so little time on the water and also germany salmon. I set it out. You know I've been fishing before what I was always told about fishing as you go early in the morning or late at night ride. My part before he would night fish he'd go sit on. The river bank can go out in a boat, but they did always go when they felt the fishes. be around because it maximizes your opportunity of catching fish struck. Me is interesting that this was the time that he chose, to go so again the spur of them trip seeming We quite interesting to him to drive that way with an eight months, pregnant wife who here I am told that his driving all that way. Because we know that when he leaves the marina he caught her I'm going to get into that the timings, because again

It just seems interesting the at a to twelve, he coups friends when he's on his way home, but he coups lazy to fifteen and this is a message I think we ve all heard and where we play it on real crime profile. But he says how beautiful I'm leaving barkley marina and that the high beautiful just didn't sound natural to me. Maybe that's how he always talks too lazy. I dont know because haven't, got a baseline or map of the fact that he says I'm leaving bargaining marina wish. You didn't even know that he was going now. So it seems like an odd thing to say: no, changed my mind. I change my I decided to actually go fishing ray, I'm now, leaving baldly marina, You know what I'm running late, so I'm going to probably get home at about four forty. Five, don't worry, I'm still gonna make the dinner. right. Isn't that what you would say in detail about your timing. So your partners, but you're still gonna, be there.

said he just Ass had to pick up this basket for papa because he didn't have time he doesn't say sorry and then he hung up the phone. I mean just strikes me is a cool where he was giving a time date stamp, and that's why I didn't know much about the case, but when I heard it was outside world that just sounds very arms, official screams alibi right, it's gray set everything is one For everything is nice, I have no cares in the world, I am just drive and in traffic and I'm putting another We had another thing on my pregnant wife who is currently scrambling around at this time. In his mind, the floor and getting ready for this dinner so again one more level of impossibilities. So you had mentioned earlier. He had gone on line and was looking up how to assemble a particular tool and that the police, later

that tool assembled in his warehouse, but they also found a piece of plywood where he had formed p, says one agar for the boat. By putting concrete into flower pots and putting you know a hook in the top of it. So you can tie rope to it. He says that that he made one of them and basically law enforcement, says it look like he had made at least five of them and of course you don't need five anchors for any boat. Typically, you have one, but if you're going to weigh somebody down a body For example, you might wanna have multiple anchors, you do. They have to have one very heavy anchor or a number of smaller anchors to weigh down a body

wondering why why was he so determined to go to assess bay to fish that day there a lot of other places that he could have chosen to go fishing, in fact his de facto father in law? went fishing that same morning. You know it's christmas eve morning. We have. You have some time off. People do things was, but he doesn't have a pregnant wife whose they re regnant right. But what I'm saying is not necessary. crime to want to do something for yourselves special during the holidays, but to drive all that way when other locations that he could have gone. It's like what is drawing him to go there Well, here I have a theory around why he shows that specifically, but I was in a just want to say before we talk to Bobby. That we know is very important, one dangerous waters We think I've read about certain points the bay is there. It's dangerous and unpredictable city

a little early, minium boat when you're not that experienced that sea. Then Jim's already mentioned the wind conditions and so on it. It seems quite treacherous to decide to go. There is a place to lots of other places or even to go out with wrong or someone else which would be wise, given the fact that your wife's going to give birth quite soon- and you tell her the very least, but I think we have already heard a lot about. Other women who allegedly went missing and that came up in the hulu Documentary and I ferocious, and he wrote down seven in going missing in such a short period of time did tat happen. Question mark and one bit killer. Woman evil in Hernandez did go missing she went missing in may, and her body was found in the san francisco bay on the twenty fourth of July, two thousand

sue underneath the city's landmark bay bridge, and there was a huge amount of media about it. but she disappeared one week before her due date. She was in woman, and I do wonder if that's the reason why there wasn't much media we ve talked about I can brown missing people in specifically, don't tend to get a huge amount of media roar interests, but she was a went missing, not just seventy per but also with a five year old son, and it's really a horrific kay. her hands on her feet and her head were missing and her baby was never found, nor was alex and he was reported missing or made seven two thousand and two by Hamas the father of the baby and that piqued my interest. the kid is, we have to wonder about similar cases ride in how many women dick I missing vertically, with this being six months before the german these. When I read into the case and found out that evening,

I know that he was married and that was me You information to her, I wondered whether she challenged him or something went on or threatened to expose him and then he disappeared, because that's the circumstance where I tend to see pregnant women being killed, not gangs, adopting women human trap, king or these sorts of things are being put into the design, I now I'm out just sowing the seed and the fact that he than lawyer up a meeting He and his wife gave him an alibi, and then they left the area still an unresolved case and san francisco, please still want. People to call them with information about the case, but he was the prime suspects and it just made me wonder what if initially so that was a similar line that you were thinking. But when I went into that case, I did just fill it see: to be a case that could be

relatively easily resolved signal seem too went to the has to to the man that she was saying and is her. If a case, because it wasn't just her and the baby was that the five year old son as well. But what if Scott petersen had seen read that heard about that? What? If that was what was in his mind and then he decided to to the san francisco bay, because, like you, lease of why else would you go to such a treacherous and tricky and challenging area with an aluminium many embodied never put in the water before you, ve never take out of the water before Reilly to spend most of amazon, the water in a boat on an island of spain, so we are how many were always easter dealing with boats and when you're, mooring, the boat and so on, but to go off on your own when this is the first time you're putting the boat into the water into that body of water. It just struck me as very bizarre, and do we know if he, if that really was, is the first time you put? It is

the chance that he could have put it in the water sometime the twenty third, the night of the twenty third put her No, this is dismay my mind just when he did this on the twenty third and was very worried that maybe he didn't do it well enough and so was drawn to I've. Gotta go back us why you didn't go golfing after all you plan to use the golfing ass, his alibi, but then thought you know where she made. floating. She may not have some away. I thought she wouldn't, so he went back out see. I mean I don't know, that's where my mind went, but that's probably farther down the road. That's a very difficult, Do I mean you would have to sneak the boat out, sneak it down to the ramps, get her out there get her back. I mean there's a lot of lot involved there, and there are a lot of entry points that are, monitoring in the in the san Francisco bay area. Well I mean people yeah of course you are right, but it's difficult to get him.

into the water unless it's a you know, boat ram that anyone, especially if he's not sophisticated doing it. But that's what a lot of what you were saying. That's what catherine crier says in her book. That's to sit the statistic I think you've said this before that the highest cause of death for pregnant women in america is homicide, not preterm, complications not losing your balance and falling or or some kind of accident, but homicide and who he's doing that homicide. I mean probably there smith partners so anyway? I think that that's about it point that you do not just probably it's not just probably the highest percentage of them are are killed by by their intimate partners is no question about it. There's just no equivocating. That's why that person, the people closest to the victim are going to have to be ruled out before anybody outside is looked at

starts even higher for black brown women and that's the point that He then most at risk from its not from being adopted by strangers in vans who them for she to give birth. You, then kill the baby. Once you ve given birth and kill you, they're all those cases but their rare, and they don't have all these other extenuating circumstances around them and that's the point This case I. you don't write an elevator for the music or pick an airline for the movies. So when it comes to audio entertainment, it makes sense to choose audible its de home, for a story is told by the biggest stars, like ethan, carry washington and Kevin heart, its home to epoch, adventures, chilling, mysteries and can't miss comedies audible is the home of story

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and what you can do about? It is truly a gift. So this What a season give yourself the gift of better mental health, a gift that really does keep on giving visit better help dot com to see. If therapy is for you, that's better h, e l, p dot com. by the time line is important because we don't know absolutely everything but scots. he seems to pull out the receipts when they needed. We know that he did leave the marina. We know that he did coup lacy. We know that he called her twice. Actually he called her again and she didn't pick up now. That's a free! Fifty two p m after poor deva for gas at three twenty five to four p m, so at timeline that's important. He doesn't leave a message for her now.

I'm curious about that as well. Jim and niece you ve been away. If left one voice, mail for your eight month, pregnant no You don't even heard back from her. about from her. Would you not be slightly worried and the fact that he just cause- and he doesn't leave a message and he doesn't even talk about that it's wrong, he was concerned just seems an oddity. and to me there are so many oddities, but he gets back to the warehouse at about four thirteen and he unhooked the boat, and he looks facts that comes through about an order and highly it's the warehouse set for twenty four p m and his back home between four thirty four forty five m when he gets back. the house is unlocked, which That's on its own might not raise a question, but the fact that dog still gotta Lee shown and in the back yard that's

was to be an oddity there, he would start to think what has a dumping out here. All the time going on ways lacy and he then empties the bucket of water. He takes off his clothes because what we also know about being on the asian chimneys, This is not just code, it's very wet, isn't sam! particularly if you might be disposing of a body You get wet or if you decide to get out of the boat, any point is what business, but he places his clothes. In the wash I don't know about the slime behavior. I dont know if he regularly washed his own clothes, but that just brought me as odd, given how was it aims to give lacy all the chores to do, and why does he put his clothes in the bar in the in the washing machine and wash them then row because he's already told us about the hamper? Why wouldn't he just put the clothes in the hamper do them as a as regular low. Instead of washing his cloak that he was wearing at that time. Immediately more suspicious behaviour

yes, I would be asking questions about that. He says that he ate some pizza will we know that they have pizza the night before he drank some milk, but it does write. Me is odd because if you're going out to a big dinner, you probably not going be munching on pizza. Just before, when your family's gone to a massive effort right to create a massive family meal, and now you are eating pizza before even when people say oh well, maybe he hadn't eaten. We had all this time. I mean he was just having a leisurely time. Why would he not have time to grab something? Why is he eating, then? Is it because he knows that perhaps he won't time later on, in that the dinner may never happen. I don't know, but to me it just seems odd to eat then he goes often showers and then he checks the elder machine and he sees at its best ping and that's when he is. I think it was it left a message saying: can you bring some whipped cream? It asked about lazy and they said that she wasn't there well defined,

Her car was still at the house. The fact that her purse was still at the house with her keys and her phone and her sunglasses. Why would you not be worried at? Why have I feel, arm wrong? What is the problem? You, like your up, like you, said, laura just the fact that the dog was outside in the back yard, with the leash on it should have been a huge red flag. He hasn't her from his wife in hours. He hasn't been there and now the dog is there a dog that she apparently walks every day? Why isn't he extremely concerned? Has she ever put the dog

in the back yard and then got to somebody else's car to go somewhere, I mean it. I can change over it's the holidays. You know I could see. Ok, maybe a girlfriend came by hey. Let's go get a cup of coffee. Let's go shopping, does not what was happening. She was already be utter. He thought she was at her inlaws house. How does that happen? They didn't come pick her up. Rammers any did that I mean you know, that's it This thing you might be like, but not blog, but you, but you definitely would be raising our like. Ok, which girlfriend or is she? You know the issue over the neighbours has sheet. You know. Tat a tree ass? She made these cookies and taking them over to the neighbors, and there is a lot of things that he could have been why would it right I'm leaving the dog in the back yard, with a leash on it? None of them explain that and that should have been a huge red flag for him and then he should have looked around well wait for cars. Here is anything else of hers here and he should have found her person or car keys and her phone. When an address

send him through the roof. Well, that's the other thing. Her phone was in her car and apparently her phone was broken and people knew that and was broken. So why did he call her cell phone and for that message and that that something that comes up later, well. I didn't know that. I mean that, I didn't know that, even so, when he called isla, he called her cellphone, not the whole answering shooting out both. He left a message at bright lawyer. He cut both we now I'm thinking that he he must have done, but maybe it was the home line that he had cooled. which makes it even more strange that your cooling and she's not picking, opponents say she does go to a neighbor's. You leave a note right just pop over the road or the fact that you hadn't heard anything from her along with all these other circumstances, with the ember to a knife. We come Can one of us isn't here haven? Where expected? The first thing we do is he checked the phone and we we want

check in and just make sure, and particularly when I was pregnant, but maybe that standing so self absorbed, there's given the better, the die is just a very self absorbed individual world that doesn't bode well either. Does it that is all he's doing is thinking about himself when in his wife's pray and that tells us that he's not invested at all. I guess, on the other hand, why isn't he calling her phone again and again and again right once he once he thinks it she's missing that that's what he says, Sharon roca? When he calls on, then he must know that her phone doesn't work. How is it that her friends? No? Does it family. No, that are phone is broken. What's goin on this in this glorious relationship, he doesn't know their phones wrote. Now he's been away for for the whole day and is clearly not, stood in the relationship at all. I mean that and called to the families at five. Seven seems there's quite tight time window here. Isn't there from him getting home to them? Five and hearing them messy.

Besides, you lazy starts at five eighteen, but it's wrong, who caused it he's fine. What he saw me again, I find with what. Why is it not you? It was the person who is the husband. Why does rum called a place because the large still hasn't gone off in petersen tat? He still is acting as if everything by which is about your bullshit or the two detectives arrived. The two modest step detectives arrive, Adam brocade and john beulah deadly investigators on the case and they. Did to the core and they find lace, keys wallet and sunglasses, I find that a person in the closet and read Flags are being re east for them just in terms of his casualness and his nonchalance and his lack ways just very calm. So again, you know I was give people the benefit of the doubt perhaps this is someone who is now I'm flattered.

And just very calm, cool and collected. But it continues into even the interview that they have with him, where he's not showing any concern at all, when this is completely out, The blue, abnormal behaviour fillet see ya, that way, you would expect some concern wouldn t some concerned for their welfare at the very least, even if your unflappable person right when you see that that video of him being in talking to police officer- yes sure you know my father is very calm and he almost goes in word when there's a crisis he's very stoic in his effect, but his actions or the opposite, he gets a laser focused and he springs into action, which doesn't mean he's gonna, be crying and being hysterical about a crisis, but I mean as a lay person just watching that interview with skype petersen talking to that synergies, literally like leaning back in

chair his hands in his pockets. His pelvis is wide open. There is up We know tension in his body and he's not like ok, what are we Do my wife is out there somewhere? Maybe she's hurt maybe she's. You know that The term labour either there is absolutely no. What do you mean- it's the owner again now largely words that yes, exactly big and why? Why would they? b because he knows, there's no need to be urgent. There is no need for his drinking, a coffee, his seemingly cooperative com, but that both detectives Jim said he didn't ask questions. So it sometimes the absences, the emission that we be we're looking for, because we dealt with these cases and everyone react differently, but most was concerned. People would ask questions, were what are you going to do where how's that gonna work? Well, when will I know anything? Will what should we be doing? How can we What should we do this?

if things are really important, can I take your number? When can we speak again these sorts of things where sometimes family members or a row pay in because they also need. it's an entire insistent on persistent and urgent about. What's, but you don't understand officer, she isn't someone he just takes herself off. She isn't somewhat in these sorts of things that are said a mouse, the emission things that actually they were more concerned about. But in interview, the key thing that struck me was when they asked him about any merits who issues for which, of course, would ask about and he says no and then he's off again as the double check at so no problems, and he gazed. He doesn't know you say no at that point he just gives them unsuited shakes his head. What we know

that he cheated on lazy at least three times, and we know that he's got amber fry. He still in this relationship, and I think that's the point where, makes a decision to say and some people might say without about not wanting to the extra marital affair, not wanting to be caught out with it He is he's more concern defies the case about his image management and his reputation. He's more about that than his wife and his arm. Child? Thus equal not a good thing right if people saying oh, he just doesn't want to be found out that his cheating, what's the worst thing here. Well that they're dead and he doesn't he's not considering that he's not considering their wealth, can during his image, and I believe that what we say the whole way down the line. So what does that less about his character is about what happens when you, wife and your unborn child is missing that you choose you right. Let's say

He didn't have anything to do with it, but he still choose him. So, at the very least, it is a terrible person, but the fact is that continues to preserve that lie and he still try to keep the relationship going with them, but the hooray was arise, ray a huge tell absolutely. If he was actually concerned about his wife and child, you would have avoided any contact the amber. He would have taken every opportunity to shut it down and say it was a bad mistake. I have priorities now I have to deal with this. Instead, he kept the lie going until he was forced into position to have to reveal it to her.

and then, when he does he's like? Oh, I guess you haven't been watching the news. I guess you're not aware of the fact that that my wife and unborn son are missing and have been since christmas eve. He is one hundred percent still trying to keep that relationship with amber going as opposed to saying it was the biggest mistake in my life, I never should have done it. I lied to you. I lied to her, and now I have to do everything in my power to find my wife and kid no nodded. Nice actions are telling on himself general, but that's what we would call his eyes, the turning on himself a more able who doesn't it yeah. The kid she doesn't go out, searching and walk lace, his brother says and what shower says, is the one share and try to go and speak to him in the early hours, if lazy missing. He didn't want to be hugged by her. He tried to avoid her and the same

for parents and he was close to Brenda brother, be he didn't to engage with them. He didn't to go out, searching so again he's putting up scaffolding and that's what I seeing linguistically he's putting up scaffolding to pick a poor who know him best his putting up barriers and scaffolding to the vote tears and her family there rule out searching for her. He wasn t so these This is only cage and things we would look cat to understand his behaviour in the whole context of what's going on and amber fry does find out that he was married on December. The thirteen from that lacy was his wife and then calls modesto, please and again that's another important point, because in the interview with Diane sawyer, he says that he told her that not what happened so each time, we can catch him in a lie, and that's really important. Jim, isn't it for to see when we see him lying

He looks like how he behaves on each time. He's forced into a position is not him doing things proactively, telling person something because it's the right thing to do is doing it because he is forced to do it and it's under duress. So on ten december, now I'm there is in the picture and she then starts working with the place. wait. So it's then that the phone call and descended the thirty four happens. That's it the vigil when it's actually initiated festival by amber. She calls him that he caused her back. Just before the vigil is about to happen. But the point is he does carry on pretending that he is in paris the he wishes her. happy new year heave and makes up names for fake people that his with, because she says I call remember who you're way than he says all pascal and so on. He makes

All these things more scaffold, large liar, I mean the up any sounds plausible right. Rattlesnake go back a little bit! I'm sorry because we missed one important thing: that was that a neighbor actually saw him loading up something big into the back of his truck, and he says that he put three umbrellas in the back of his truck. So let's talk about plausibility. Let's talk about what could have happened here, what he could have used those umbrellas to cover up laces body in the back of the truck, so it is not a neutral event,

That is putting these things in the back of his truck. It is also an enabling event. It's a way for him to actually get away with disguising her body in the back of his truck driving to his warehouse, where he has privacy where he can prepare her body for disposal and let's talk about disposal, if you want concealment, you have to bury the body out in those rural areas, and that takes a long time. That means you have to spend a lot more time

figuring out how to cover up for you yourself and create an alibi. The covers more time and that's difficult. Water is very easy. Its walls up bodies for a time, and it can give you a chance to get away and the fact that he would tie himself to the exact location where the bodies of his wife and and and child would eventually flowed up, shows me that is crucial Sophistication level is very low. This is not an experienced criminal, but this is somebody who had no feeling and no remorse about killing his wife and child so that he could have the freedom to pursue and other relationship laura's, probably until it she's, probably cracked it. He probably learned about those other bodies that were found in bay and took his cues from there. I mean that makes all the sense in the world if there's something

rubbia and Ellen say, is who, in the middle of the day or in the middle of the morning, load their truck with their dead wife. Spotty. Well, he's used to in plain sight I mean he he's used to just do What he wants and assuming that people are look the other way I mean, isn't too isn't that sort of part of his over inflated confidence about what he can get it? it was, and the other thing I wanna ask you and I've asked you this before, and I still don't understand it. If I killed my wife, I would sad, I would I would act with urgency, and yet he doesn't.

And I Don'T- and I guess I'll, never understand that. I think it was the same thing when we talked about Chris. What, sir? You know several other people right, but I think I think that you would you don't understand, is that this man is narcissistic. This man cares about himself. He doesn't care about other people, so he doesn't think about how other people might react to having someone. They love who's pregnant with their child. How they might react, he's only thinking about himself he's only thinking about his own perspective and all he wants to do is cover dotting, I's and crossing t's in terms of of his alibi, so that he can push that away. That can fade into history and he can move on for this new relationship. He isn't a sophisticated criminal. He doesn't know how to appease law enforcement officers. What he's able to do is clean up.

ever crime scene? There was to the extent where it was hasn't, been found and then dispose of her body that was temporary concealment and when her body floated up and his sons body floated up, it is what created the problem cause to arrest him, so he didn't do a good job. He wasn't that sophisticated, but he was lucky enough to have destroyed whatever forensic evidence existed at the house, so that he was a p they he wasn't able to be arrested. There wasn't any evans or enough evelyn for them to arrest him based on what they found at the house. I mean I've seen people, sadly, in all sorts of cases, kill in all matters and put bodies into see cases cause trucks and so on and under pressure poor do crazy things

yeah. It's not all thought through every little detail, and sometimes It's just in the act- and I was a thing just with scott peters- The most significant thing for me is watching him on interview of watching him be interviewed by the police. the Diane Sawyer eleven minutes interview where I see how hard he works to try and get hurt to believe in what he's selling thing. Think his personal power german. These results. It is something he relies on his eyes and the way that he looks and I He believes that he can persuade people to a different way of thinking and I see him doing it at die on soya, and I see her instant reaction is that she is repelled in its light, she smells bullshit lightly physically smells then in them that. She acts the look of you. You seriously expect us to believe that your eight months, pregnant wife, was at peace. With

you cheating, you know her instant reaction is the right one degree, what he's asking her to believe is absurd and it sad for all of us and we shouldn't be buying into absurd thing is that of being sold in every all his language. Everything in the way that he uses a fading facts- and I can see common civil loaned where he is trying to remember what he was meant to say I am when you're turning the truce. Well, guess what you don't have to remember anything! You don't get cognitive light, so we're going to get into that that detail, but just because you ration eliza of what you would do of having you know now, research. Lots of cases. What people tend to do sounds in those situations which, if you're not a psycho, If you're not a narcissist, it is very difficult to put yourself in that situation. Where you is all your thinking about you me myself, and I am maybe you re a confident that you can sell this new

save and you can control the narrative. Maybe you ve seen another case where someone gets away with their evil in Hernandez. even if it wasn't much media what happened was a successful outcome for the killer in the body. Parts is still missing and it's still a mystery and what, if that's, what you believe you can get away with that The ideation is a new start to act on it, So sometimes it's a bit of luck to another, the bodies parts were missing in this case when her body covered and that again it probably is not a coincidence, didn't happen because there's a serial killer abducting mary. pregnant women and dumping them in the bay or, like you said, laura did he see this happen successfully, and then he mimic that behaviour. This reminds me by the way of a very old case, Jeffrey mcdonald case from fort bragg.

And he he claims that in the mill- and I night he to sleep on the couch and any go woken up by their threeg is by the end of the couch looking at him, and he heard his wife scream Jeffrey. Why are they doing this to me and his daughter screening, daddy, daddy? His wife is pregnant wife and her and their two daughters too we're old and five year old were brutally murdered, clubbed beaten and stabbed multiple times, and he gets on the deck. Cavett show and again a charming handsome looking guy gets on there and basically was like a celebrity and he was loving every moment of it, and while dick cabot was very very cautious about asking questions, because obviously he thought the sky high

to be devastated by what happened to his family. This guy actually was basically telling jokes and smiling and totally inappropriate, completely inappropriate, and this is exactly what scott Petersen did. He he played to the audience you got up there. He was actually a little more sophisticated about being able to hide or or or pretend that he was concerned and about lazy and their unborn son, but he was nowhere near appropriate in his responses in his persona in his persona, in the way that he presented himself to the public, but he definitely wanted to present himself to the public. He wanted that limelight. Yes, the essential army said it Jim charm, being the manipulator, and when we come back into our next step we are going to talk about that interview and the run up to it because nothing the the Diane sawyer interview in the other media,

two views that he grunted and again That's really important that he agrees. to do after this passage of time of them being missing that path, we have time when it is time critical way. Someone's missing, like this particular pregnant women, whose chief who how'd you date is not that far off his time. Critical. The absence of his interview is even more important and war. what he does say and what he doesn't say, we're gonna take the language law so much more- to talk about in this very hard heartbreaking case before-

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