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#26 Craigslist, Horsley's List


Craigslist is the internet’s classifieds section, but it’s also one of its more shadowy corners, where the ads are anonymous and ephemeral. So we found ourselves wondering - what would we find if we replied to a couple? This week, we track down the people behind two intriguing ads.

And in the second half of the show - Neal Horsley was an anti-abortion activist who created a website called "The Nuremberg Files," a website that listed the names and addresses of abortion providers around the country. He died last month, but the legacy of his website lives on. We talked to Jennifer Boulanger, a woman who works at a number of abortion clinics, and whose name ended up on Horsley's website in the 90's.

Reporter Bianca Giaever is a filmmaker and radio producer in New York.



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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This episode is brought to you by better for him, a new podcast from eighty people. In each episode Francesca Ramsay talks to visionaries in business leaders about mistakes. They ve made how they work their way through them and came out better for it. Listen on Spotify, wherever you get your pot casts. Craigslist arson wanted section post. I need legal help. You'll make noise. There are no, that's fine, so I'm actually wondering if you could read the legal help at grandest politics. Bracken do I need legal help,
financial help to get a lawyer, I'm disabled on a man force taller than me, punch, my wife and a head. My home. Naturally I went bashing John is ass. You know he's dedicate more than seven years for the past fifteen years to studying karate, I have a witness who punched him as well before leaving He was on his lunch break and had to go back to work. The time the police came. They arrested as both a misdemeanor for the guy who push my wife in the head and a felony from me for largely choking the Astrid, even though he had no injuries- and I now have a broken finger- I'm disable man can't even cross the street anymore without assistance. I've also security. My health is such that I can't afford to go to for this, and I dont want to follow me on my record. I need a good lawyer in a decent. Where should do because I've got a strong case I need a lawyer or I need money one and I'm not sure about cord point attorneys or if I can't even get one at this point. Please help me: when did you put that in
several weeks ago, and on what where the circumstances surrounding it. Yes, there have actually been ask your sitting exactly what you're sitting right now who, tomorrow, for his lunch hour, he's working the graveyard shift at the home depot, knock network operations centre and is lunch hour comes a muddle. The night were generally night people, my friend on as a prosthetic legs based rooms, closer or so he got in the door and let for in MILAN and created now, I'm starting to mail, but it's ours in his work. When they're going change shift and then he just suddenly now, a name and strong doctors rooms. Store really hard and Cathy was in her room said. If you break that you have to pay for that, and I came and sat down to table then he came back in here Alan that is pushed on the sky, with both hands so hard. The chair tipped up on two legs and start breaking.
Now for not respecting improperly and his own home, which it wasn't his home use around here, Cathy coming up to Somerset, don't start fights with a houseguest and Allen pushed her and she pushed him back and he punched her and he was preparing to punch her again and I saw a red. I just stopped think now. I can't imagine any man who would sit there and watch some other man punches wife in and keep a clear head, I, however, and that's three Guess I what batshit crazy on Alan when in punched her Cathy? Are you? Ok? Yes, I'm ok, I'm glad to hear that so rough. So you that you got it. You got out of jail, and you have this felony now hanging over your head, you're having to do anger, management classes and the defending yourself against a felony is a very extensive. Are you,
currently working. Lost my job at apple do long term HIV infection HIV. Why rose diagnosed nineteen? Eighty four, it seems like there's just one sort of misfortune piling on top of another yes, but describes a fairly well, but nobody shooting at me beat me up a running me over. It could be worse. I suppose that's true, and even no life is inherently fucked up as it is right now our is no longer here. Life in the house is much better, so What made you decide to post on Craigslist desperation? I didn't have money for a lawyer. I was looking for any way I could trying it legal her
What kind of responses did you get to that add somebody? Who's son works with some group who provides insurance for a legal society. That provides assistance in civil matters contacted me that sounds kind of useless for your particular need are recognised, right off. It was useless, but I still checked it out basically chase every possible lead that I can get and was that the only respond to get yes for years. So you you said on the phone earlier, you had experience with Craigslist before, like you'd, had positive experiences with it. What kind of experiences had you had? I took the time to type up a couple of Craigslist out. I've have credible experience with foreign thing, the
The monster Allen, he got his prosthetic leg replaced and I got some of the trade an Android tablet for it. Do you want to read me the ad sure if you want that be great I'd like to trade, an old Syracuse, prosthetic leg, with a flex foot attached for a functional, Android tablet or Kindle Fire or Kindle fire hd. You can turn into a piece of art if you like, or whatever other strange purposes you might have for pro. Rick, I won't judge. I just want to thank God originally recently had proved pointed out to me that you can draw with those little tablets and I would need to drag bank fourpence is around with me when I go to the doktor and stuff Add one being of limited means better off. God is an old leg. I can't afford to buy one not even used one so a leg for an android Maybe what start building an android? That's pretty brown, and it's so specific. You wouldn t
that someone would say? Oh yeah, I have an android tablet than happily trade for a prosthetic legs, but it got him Android tablet they give hundred dollar bill and tablet. It was people from the actual form there were totally entry by that's amazing and piano. See over there. I gotta for free I've Craigslist by policing and writing an ad saying: I need a piano I dont know if Europe for it, but I was wondering if I could hear you play sir.
That's beautiful! Did you write that? Yes, I do. Yeah. Definitely not bad for someone who has a broken finger. Fill a bone lives and asked him you can find out more about in including to go. Find me campaigns he set up on our website. So how should balance before rapidly, but from what his, whereby all its moral week we are sure about the internet. This week we are permitted, a brand new segment, its held ten minutes
Craigslist tardy on the Peabody workshop speedily as trawling Craigslist for adds that we find interesting and then talking to them I made them so that the new segment also, we're gonna look at the legacy of a guy who, in many ways wrote the playbook for internet death threats and we're gonna talk to somebody who to somebody who targeted. But before that we have one more Craigslist story that we loved it from reporter. Bianca gave her Alex. Let me just read you the add that she found. Please do. I said the title is get married, this weekend, a hundred dollars when other ministers inefficient, say no, this New York City registered and ordained Minister replies. Yes, if you have a marriage,
since I will marry you at your location and with the service you desire book now for special rates and best states, or is it W W w dot book a minister dotcom book I'm in yep book, a minister Bianco into go, meet him where most of his weddings in central park. So my ruining year holiday weekend here as the whole whole weekend, totally free to do so. Just introducing yourself saying your name in and what you do. Money, I'm River Nicholas all Keyser perform weddings throughout the Northeast Helen Have you been doing been doing this fast? Thirty thirty years for thirty years. A thirty years ago I was a monastic priest, Doing traditional weddings for twenty five years, traditional weddings for twenty five years and then the past five years you started doing faster way. Faster wedding
and how long dear weddings last the joke is that I could leave my car double parked in running come into Europe, Mary you and leave- and I don't have to but having lock the car turned it off. What's the fast sweating have done the first, sweating that I've done was about four months. Was a town called currents of a couple weeks speaking that day they are getting married, but they weren't speaking year. They had gotten their marriage license the period of time before it would expire was running out and she did not wanna go and pay another thirty five dollars to the marriage license. He sat in the kitchen, the screamed. I do. She signed the papers. His signature was already on the paperwork I sighed and I left. I wasn't in the house three minutes. What's the weirdest place you ve done a wedding. Actually a fast food restaurant, the couple work there and they like, their jobs, which really frightened me, and it was her through
marriage in his first was a vastly restaurant, whose overbooking and when you do it like in in front of their cash years, are over. If I were you in the running of the day, had Burger king commercials running when this was going on and The two of them seemed to be gleefully employed by this chain of restaurants. If you collar straw and and Adam They were looking to get promotions out of this are wanted burger king to pay for the food that day, I have no idea I don't know. I did get to the wedding in your like. Oh God, do not think they should be getting married. I've been contacted a couple of times. By we're both times. It's just and to be women who wanted to HU, a graveside service. I wanted to get married at someone's grave, who didn't want them to get very high costs and if you want,
to get married. The reason she wanted to get married quickly was because the woman had just and buried the dirt was still loose the flowers or on the grave, and she wanted to take the floor. Where's when she left those would be her wedding flowers like a weird spite thanked arrested. There's just no way I don't want to be any part of this. Ass. A year passes you wanna, get Mary Ann, you feel differently. I want to sit down and talk to all of you and then I'll? Consider marrying you, and you know, is right that thinking case. It was his mother. I want see what he thinks of this, this controllers, the horrible either. Very soon, or perhaps years later by me, How could he not know what's going on if he's standing over his mother's grave help in her collector roses? I mean yes, but I think I think the worst thing is when people show up on and have objected and weddings there I do not know who the person, as I know, that as a person who used to advertise on Craigslist that they get paid to show
subject by other people like that's a survey- they, but I dont know what he charged. I don't know who he is. I don't see his hands there any longer, but what you are saying that on Craigslist for a period of time, you months and what do you say, about being with people on their wedding day. Watching those start crying when I pronounced them, husband and wife. You like that particularly when it's man. Yes, I have to admit that happens a lot do something nice about seeing that strength of emotion is nice. Seeing someone feel safe enough today have to hold back, and it is nice to see that their willing to share that someone else allows them to be that happy. Nice to see someone come out their guard down. Do you think that then more at the weddings. You do because no they're. Usually I never thought
Oh sure? I know. That's that's very possibly part of it. Are you aid? Yes, is first marriage, it's why only marriage I married to another man. I was not married here. It was not legal when we got married, we ve been together thirty, eight years next weekend, while Congrats well. Thank you. Where did you get it? in Canada, Agrifuels eyes, and we just went out got a couple of suits in some rings enter accommodating world. If you have a few dollars in your pocket and we went into a registry office eleven in the morning got our license at one thousand one hundred and thirty, and we got married and I came up the border, were returning and those young younger, very marine, looking kind of ex military customs. This is a reason for going to Canada and the man that I'm now our marriage is that we want to a wedding and he goes whose nice
Are if you got a problem with it, who use troll, Rights are always congratulations on a upon. We were Bianca gave her as a radio producer New York after the break see if a guy who helped revolutionise the way people threaten each other's lives. Online this episode is brought. You buy better for it, a new podcast from eighty peed hosted by Francesca Ramsay. We all make mistakes better, for it looks at how Miss Eggs have shaped the lives and careers of visionaries and business leaders and helps them think differently about what their working for you'll hear from an entrepreneur who ventured out on his own, and so I went out. I took seven hundred dollars. I had in the bank, but my own pickup truck took some flyers business cards and
later I had a business and in each hour, rule breaker, whose learn while we all care about work in the first place, you are proud of the work. Do you want to be able to tell your friends about you want to be able to feel like you're, making a difference, you'll hear how they work their way through their mistakes and came out better for listen on Spotify or wherever you get your pockets. This past month, mirth, the death of Neil hoarsely coarsely, was an extreme antiabortion activist with a pretty fascinating backstory. He would say that in his early life he was it hidden asked. You install radio show. How is that? Yes, the rumours are true as a kid growing. When a farm he had had sex with a mule charted hedonism but hoarsely was later arrested for sowing weed and sent to jail, and his life changed in prison humor born again evangelical, and when he got out, he began his crusade against abortion in nine
Ninety seven. He created the website, which made him famous the Nuremberg trials, It is essentially a list of all the personal info hoarsely could find on abortion riders in the U S, this horse lakes his website to a reporter wildly. As about four hundred names on click on it gives you they're nine their home address there. First address all of the this kind, information. The black in black or other people are working. The great at names are people who have been wounded and strike throughout the one's life, slipping and our people have been killed. Coarsely claim that he wasn t Anybody to kill these people just noting whether we're still alive or not so basically saying I'm not going The kill these guys, I'm just giving an assessment of their of their having whether they ve been shot or not. And this ain't live on without him like
things it's like, there's remnants of it. Even oats officially asked which exist in Europe, but also slicker versions of it of like similar things, just now so like his website was super liked web one like it's all, show you it so you can see it. It's like one thousand, nine hundred and ninety five hate internet there's like a crude illustration of a at very in which there is an accused man being pointed at to somebody who's so because hoarsely died. I want to talk to somebody. Who's name had been on the site, so I found this woman four bouygues. She shut up on horses website around two thousand. And on their does your name. It says p in principle. And it's in a red font. What does that mean? I know it's in a red fight, yeah. You know I haven't been on that site in a very very long time? I think it just means that
an active alive provider she still worse at several abortion clinics. Does it doesn't mean anything to you that, firstly, as died, I can't say that I am, you know affected by it in a negative way, but you know I The damage is done. You know, he's already had his influence right, like he's created, playback another people, just gonna, following where I am Thirdly, what did it mean at that point to have your name on a website targeting you? I remember that particular website they cause
What was soon jarring about it was the blood dripping on the site and it just kind of when you see that it just it makes your heart race. You note think that someone has put your name on a site of dripping blood. Were I believe in the use of force to stop abortion they are encouraging others to try. You or other providers or judges are police officers or whoever it's a very jarring feeling the situation for found herself in, is one a lot of women online today find themselves in receiving debt. Rights on the internet from strangers and then have the way, just how much those strangers really mean it. This case. She took the threads very seriously because she had colleagues, fellow abortion providers who had been murdered.
Jennifer said that some horses contemporaries are even worse like this. Named John Dunkel, who had his own site, he openly admits that he supports, The use of force to stop abortion and the is a news letter that he distributes to those who are in prison for murdering doctors kidnapping. Doctors are sin against abortion providers. I mean the top criminals against abortion provisioned. So there was at one point where he had opposed on how to kill a doctor. Like instructions, leg shoot her between the eyes. Make sure you drive a car like a rented car or take off the licence Please make sure there are no cameras around like really do
held instructions and they actually had the name of a doctor. Her address her picture and he was openly encouraging. Anyone reading his sight to go. Kill this doktor John Dunkel would pick it up Jennifer's home. He he would park in front of my home, and have signs all around his truck of bloody. Almost term fetuses dismembered, and what would you do like when I first found out that he. Found out. Where I lived, I mean it was. I was hysterical. Might I tore the number off my house? I called the police, you know, but without them
Trespassing there really are no laws, and how did he have her dress? I believe He followed me home. I mean I don't know for sure, but at the time. You know, I was using my maiden name at work and my married name at home Far as I knew they didn't have my married name and, I'm sure was one night driving home late at night that I just wasn't paying enough attention. And I just didn't- you know. Took a normal round. I didn't you know, Sir, my my way home, which is what most providers do from tat- two time. You know to avoid being followed and I believe they followed me. I mean I don't think, there's any other way that they got my information. I think I didn't understand before how much it's just you are always being hunted yeah. That's that's a good analogy of how it felt at the time
No, I mean I used to walk by protestors. Who used is just safe, small things about me, and I would just not know how they knew personal things like why. It's a lot of times names of people close to me. Things like ours, so is say the name of the doktor and the name of my husband, and so did they get along and This disturbing the fact that these websites existed were they themselves can't significantly worse lake did the internet make these peoples you to terrorize you more powerful. I think what made it more powerful was that, even though someone like John Dunkel openly admitted he would never do it himself. It was like he was trying to find someone who would- and using the internet. You have the power to really draw
someone out whose unstable and unhinged- and you know really crazy enough to carry it out right and you this position where now, and having you evaluate. If this person who's going to do a bunch of things, it seem crazy, is going to do even more crazy thing. It doesnt matter because they have this powerful antenna and they're. Just furiously sending out a signal that anyone who would want to harm you like that, like you have like there's nothing, you can do suffer fuel scared, all the time, right! I mean looking back on it now. When I talk about it, you know the feelings just come: flooding back you know what it was like to live like that and you know, but for a while, Oh, you know we just you just live with it, so easy, because the way people were behaving towards you in public in real life is like the way the worst internet commentators engage with an hour and like all the things you're supposed to do when that happens, which is like ignore them and dont feed the trolls don't criticise them, but when
the troll is standing next to an screaming in your face, and they know your husband's name as a very heart. Much more difficult thing to do. Is its deficit aging, and you know I'm a klutz and there was in time were. I just ripped like right in front of us a great deal of work and they go that's guards way of telling you not to go There was more to fly desirable, but innocent I've had those moments that I just think of didn't get through that those Jennifer Bouygues one of the problems that she has had to deal with. Is that people safe. Things to her online or in real life. That's in her eyes like very clear threats and typical the people who were threatening her would say. No, we did
in that way, at all, there was actually a title that new hoarsely use for a bunch years. Interestingly, the Supreme Court has a case right now that can elect this stuff, there's a guy who said a bunch of stuff about his Ex wife on Facebook to her the Sufis had sounded a lot like death threats. Here, Did he was just an aspiring wrapper who is venting through rap lyrics, and so they're gonna have to decide. Basically, how do you decide if something's, threatening or not how much had context matter, how much this authority intent matter They heard the case in December. They haven't issued a verdict yet will see what happens. And that's a sweet shop Romania was hosted by me. He gave a without your Do you like him, monotony and feel abandoned? We were mixed Reverend John towards our internet, Sylvie Douglas Matt Leaver is a teacher that you don't want because you're afraid it would shrink scientist by
On his body, mysterious, break master cylinder and our add music is by build. Buildings are like. Advisory scientist by Matt Farley. We did the dvd extra for these stories on digg dot com this week make sure you check it out special they this week to David S, Cohen, increasing Conon through the other living in the crosshairs. The untold stories of antiabortion terrorism. Thanks listening and we'll see you next week.
Transcript generated on 2020-02-13.