This episode is brought to you by better for him a new podcast from eighty people. In each episode Francesca Ramsay talks to visionaries in business leaders about mistakes. They ve made how they work their way through them and came out better for it. Listen on sport fi or wherever you get your pot forgive my reply off. I'm he gave up Alex Goldman Man, man high has a gun good. So, while back we decide to do an experiment right and he's wrong. With this, we had read that Donald Trump uses an old, easy, the hack android phone. Our galaxy us three, and so we want to find out if somebody were able to.

Is phone. What could they find out about Donald Trump, you like very without very little pursue, and I was like hey- try hack your cell phone for awhile and you're like yeah, that's fine, and so what we did is I bought a cent. On Galaxy, three of E bay. I bought some just like consumer spyware software I loaded it onto the fund, which was really easy: a businesslike, headed jailbreak at and then visit one website which about five minutes. You agreed to, not use your Iphone to only use this phone, which meant that I'd unfettered access to your life- and I just one is There are a lot to say about my ex be hidden about rights. Rigour, that's why we're here for some are using this phone was like a painful odyssey like I felt like I was using a phone that felt

totally alien to me, not only because it's not an Iphone, but because its older, it's like six or seven years old and in technology years, that's like three decades yeah. So what so? What was hard. Let's see what what was more have right now I have the phone in my hand its ago. It looks like an old like it's like it's kind of from the we're things were round aid in a way that was first like I'd. Take pages like somebody's birth can. Oh container, it look, there's a tonne shovel whereon here just little shovel, where just like a bunch of image that was pre loaded. Unlike what beats music chat on eighty anti locker. Eighty Anti family map Group play most of these things. Like sex stuff, like chat on, grew play. I know about your occur, Samson hub. Es memo. Ok, whether it has a under crap on it that your active use, that is always a job

It has an app called. Let go You know: you're zero suicide hotline that to me just sounds like relax. There was like an extra luck screen on top lock screen that I had, I would have a microphone twice. Yes, I had dissuade through twice to say nothing of the fact that the battery seven years old, the phone died every that you couldn't use the phone for more than an hour and a half I've had it charging all day it sixty one percent it. Seventy four percent, when you walked into the room ten minutes ago, got that is fostering also The other is in a very open dialogue was because the farmers doing on up up up up up up up up just the things you ass, if they had. The other thing that I should mention is that yeah is on the first episode. We agreed that I would do this for a week, yes and then just sort of kept going

No one said anything, so I just kept using the phone. I think I ended up using it for three weeks. Yeah, that's true the matter! My wife was furious. I wondered if she any feelings about this thing. You agreed to do that violate all her privacy as well it not because of the privacy stuff just because the phone was so unusable that she had a very hard time keeping in contact with me. I noticed that Ok, here's what it looked like from my end of things. I have. I have this. Basically, I go to my web browser. I he go to the like interface for my spyware and I get this dashboard. Basically, it's like this in graphic design is like when you do router set up at your house. Shows me like if we were your right now on a map. It shows me your battery level, which is always very low. But then I can open up and I have a recording reform called to or from your phone really yes, oh wow,

I'm watching. You learn things, oh boy all your tax. All yours Emma Mass, like so for these and other for you yourself took on the phone or the videos you took on the phone, any audio files you made on the phone, the wallpaper for from which never changed, and then what I could do, as I could asked the phone to record for a period of anywhere from one minute waiting an hour, and it would just record like from its microphone starting and it semi the audio file, and then I could also this a picture and to have a bunch of pictures from your phones, camera that I took would they store on my phone or were they agree agenda? There are four main Africa Did you get anything good all admit, however, that so this has been a very frustrating experience for me is represented. Here is because

You are perhaps like there's. No one worse, I gotta pick tests, or can I yet Kate can play Some of what I picked up on my wiretaps yeah, please now and very excited here's a commerce's review and Sarah. How can it be? I can hear me yeah, I'm on my way home. Are you gonna? Do I'm in the train? Ok, when neither giving I'll call you remembered it, maybe like nine forty five. I think I've been stopping at cash. For that matter. Are you sure you're gonna be on first? Ok, I also that cash for deadline- but now I have cash. For me, too, big to us. You will find that the law-

Spit exciting also centres, so many pictures have just like if there is the trains crowded, your send her picture of the train being crowded like a lot like eyes. Likewise invasions of all these people, there were some pretty serious train problems in New York City. Owing aren't, you are Syrians. It talked about them in the morning and the obvious years ago. Here's a pretty good conversation you and him have hey what's up, they hurried oh shit, hiding the nice. We work very bad, but didn't you over two year old. She heard him not caring, yeah sure tat. Let me do you have a little later retracting, even twice as talking about like minor at its four that we set aside from now on hours and hours and hours of recordings that are just like this. Like there's, nothing, there's like behind the scenes, but he's like a movie and then it is

just commentary and just the dialogue of the movie, like another way, I thought I could get you to reveal. So let yourself just like. If it's not your thoughts like where'd, you go like there's. This feature where it shows me a map and every single time you moved the dot on the map. So I can see like all your patterns over the course of the three weeks. Here's what I say like when I hit the video I can watch you travel. You started work and at the end of that first work day you get on a train and I see your travel on the train to Manhattan and a nice. You transfer trains and travel to New Jersey, and then you go from the train station New Jersey to your house and the next morning. You do the exact same thing, but just backwards. This makes me feel really bad about my life, really me a scenario. What did you expect? Oh, maybe you and your friend I hadn't heard about or a hobby you'd never mentioned or leg, just a secret one sick

maybe you'd, have once you or me one b, a dirty Seeger gets you just a secret, There was one point four, like one moment when I was reading all your text messages where at least like it outside observer. It did look like you are absent having an affair. Come on you send a message to a person. You bet your exchange where some eight you, I really want to have our slumber party. One day, and there I literally inviting you over that night and there here's my address call when you're here? If you want a contract food, there's hunkered food, the distressing you out like just me to read this. I have no idea what this about this distressing. The out there for they would you like some late when it was a winter stormy interview. You back to Jersey, yes, and she was hers.

Like, oh, you can crash at our place. But if you want to go home but like it was, they were like. Oh, if a random person we're looking into you like, if, like the F B, I really can t they be like. This is definitely bad right right. But, yes, oh, my God, the shorthand we use with each other. That could have been very terribly misconstrued. I yes, but for me, so I got so bored and I was it really follow goes like what we said. We are going to do this and I need to find something and leg if this really is like somebody spying on Trump, you know much like one person's rise on trumped like it's an essay. They like Junior, analyse thoroughly people come on yeah yeah? So I do Emily Kennedy. Yes, so Emily Kennedy for abuse. You don't know my Kennedy she's a freelance radio producer. She we ve worked with her, but always remotely, and so I, like Emily

you wanna, be like a junior spy analysed of ours, Haldeman's life, who I didn't get an explicitly give you permission to do this. That's true, so I handed over to Emily and leg. Emily came into differently because, like she, U S haven't met in person now. So I guess I handed the controls over her for weekend and basically like she caught the same. If I did like she got a lot of you with your family. Talking to Sarah saying in the Harvey Hurricane take away is just She really really loves your life. He just seemed like such a guide. Dad you can like see the like hard eyes. You like up here, you know it's so cute, but it also like I don't know I something about listening to children on like like a super shoddy recording laughing makes me feel like I like. Something is

eminently going to happen to this, like very nice family, with his leg, very nice mom, very nice dad we're like reading Thomas the tank engine all gather with their kid you're like a flock like you guys, are going down, Having heard what else jumped at eu- and us was interesting,. Oh my god. Ok there is an amazing moment, but I feel it you'll appreciate yeah. So he saw this when we say I have like no sound, but I can pull up, took it oh god, no heed and how did you walked up the stairs and then he said to his wife like, whereas the shopping list was on the table? Then you can really static ip. He goes where anyone at where are you going to the grocery store?

then I don't you only gonna turn thy don't get through and she goes. I don't care where you go and then you go hey. I love you, which is like the very sweet moment. So we are to talk about an and again then leave the house. It is really exciting. It felt like that was the first like real theme, tape that I got of like you get here. Gambling, is key than you could hear the door shut. Eying like you felt like he was going somewhere because it has so little story. It's like anything that happens. Feels like a story is happening, yeah, exactly exactly The thing that Emily found like the big moment it happens next you get into your car. You turn on, like whatever the pop rap precision is in Jersey had any sense.

And then you start driving and after a couple minutes just start laughing to yourself. It is like that kind of laughter- and it like goes on is legal. Four minute, where you dislike, just like half a job and in Europe are living in. Song on the re, is I mean to tell radio. Something about myself yeah. This might be, when secret. Ok, if I watched a comedy, show or re, listen to a comedy pike asked in there's a moment that I think is particularly funny. If I think about it, Well, I'm by myself, I often still having infidelity Do. Why are you have the recording yet, however, Oh quality recording, really wanna hear heroine of ivory.

Why not What are you doing? Relapse your heart disease by being, like What about it? We're still bears agreement ever haven't really it's.

Weird is so weird it's so weird yeah, it's that vat is working. Fine words nightmare about what you can find out about me really that I'm, like a curry, be self Laffer in a car by myself. It's so weird! Do you and your setting up? Maybe what you feel better sure you wanna hear of singing to your son. There be great! Oh here's, your song with Harvey Telethon Wow, makes me feel happy.

Because your hearing, you it's your cat, I love that guy such her life Yom using your kid sounds great, then, the car will have two bodies spell the murders, you're gonna do. That is truly so we coming up after the break a world of creeps,

This episode is brought to you by better, for a new podcast from HTTP hosted by Francesca Ramsay. We all make mistakes better for it. How mistakes have shaped the lives and careers of visionaries and business leaders and helps them think differently about what their working for you'll hear from an entrepreneur who ventured out on his own, and so I went out. I took seven hundred dollars. I had in the bank, but my own pickup truck took some flyers business cards and later I had a business and in aid our role, breaker, whose learned why we all care about work in the first place, you deprive the word the

Do you want to be able to tell your friends about it? You want to be able to feel like you're, making a different you'll hear how they work their way through their mistakes and came out better for him. The non Spotify or wherever you get your pockets. Hope you Alex a little worse for wear, but pretty good. Oh sorry, to tell you something right, so our last conversation was a week ago. In that time I have learned a lot of things about the tool that I used to spy on. You asshole flexes by all of those things, are pretty bad, Great yeah so yeah, so I'm gonna tell you things. I've learned which made me feel bad. You can feel that, although some of them, you personally, I think I need to know. Ok, so Joseph Cox, the motherboard reporter, who told me

it's like the spy in the first place. While we were doing our experiment, he was just learning as much as he could about this tool. Ok, but Joseph has been focusing on domestic violence because it turns out the kind of person who wants to control you by invading your privacy can also be the kind of person who will be violent towards you. He adds bad. He told me about this survey. Seventy five percent of domestic violence shelters have come across somebody, who's come in and said, I found software like this on my phone Jesus Christ discursive know anything about this company. That's doing this, so he was able to get data on. This by and this other similar company, they ve way more users than I would have thought they like a hundred things like a hundred thirty thousand, I went to guess ten. I know a socially causes offers really expensive. Like the package, I was two hundred dollars. I think, there's a cheaper for fifty bucks, but like this

profitable its international. Although the United States is like a lot of their business, also, he found out that they explicitly are targeting a spouse situation like basically they bought. A bunch of ads on Google? And if you search like how do I catch my cheating husband, how do I get my feeling, wife? You are likely to see ads for their software. This is like a classic blind spot for Google. If I were Google, there was the kind of ads I would lest you not explicitly breaking any rules, but it's just it creates a scenario that facilitates like violence and terribleness, unlike just it facilitates like human misery. The other thing is, it is illegal, so like this is a point that somehow just full over my stupid head Hotwire tat people. So how can they sell their stuff because they're not located in the? U S like become used to do this. For the most part they can say if their smart Lake,

Well, we don't know that people can use it for that. But what makes flax aspire? The committee that I use like a particularly bad is they're telling people to use it for the sake they're, not even winking. So the big thing that happened between when we started this and one or two jerry yesterday I can, I make a guess: yeah, where they hacked. Yes, oh you gotta, be kidding me flexes by was hack, yes, and what does that mean? What, if they gotten? Okay, so they were hacked. He has access to the database of access. He searched and you are not in it. Ass, a relief to that your generally worrisome yeah. So actually the hacker who hacked for access by its packard aimed leopard boy, and he did it like as an act of pro ass like he was like what they're doing is wrong and gross, and I don't like it. You actually be registered article and got mad that way and then he's

the material to Joseph did the contents. We're scented Joseph also include the names of the customers yeah. They got this huge list of fights despise customers. So all these people who are spying on people they our kind of expose, ok, you said my name wasn't in the list was your name in the lead. My name is on the list, but Joe wanted to talk to some of the people who were, unless that you wanted to know who did it were, and so he started emailing them. We're just totally normal people like a teacher in Washington D C, dog trainer in Georgia, someone who runs a sunglasses, distributor, New York and theirs? Is there not embarrassed about what they ve done? Like there's this guy, who had used to spy on his wife? This was the best. When he had spent sure were well. Maybe spending money on moving. And then there was another one.

They think was most shocking. It was a very simple short email. There simply said it's normal and I never have megan, it's normal, more meaning its normal to spy on people It's normal to use this software does malware Joseph also heard from a second hacker person. Who'd hacked another company, that's basically the same as for access by and they got like actual material like all the thing like if I buy on United, like photos, video audio they had that stuff and they sent that stuff to Joseph wow. The method that was not better secured. I now not great yeah the hacker agreed with you. He was right.

I don't think people should be able to gain access to this material so after he broke into the company he wiped with a service. He deleted it from the company itself. That is like the end of fight club or something yeah I can set on fire and the sectors by hack. It is largely the same thing is none of them, it is awesome I strongly suspect that they probably had back. I guess I'm sure that they did but It was nice move yeah anyway. I just feel, like my whole, take away from this is I feel like we were using like a toy, and I like all of this is not a toy. This is Tara and it's not like it didn't occur to me that this may not be the best thing, but like it's like you brought an aka. Seven to hunt squirrels. Yes, yes, yes and, like I do, I do generally feel I have

this guy exposure, more risk and ain't had did too, and it feels bad times. Like generally sorry for that. Well, thank you. Thank you. I thought the first half of the show was like much about just my glaring personality flaws and like the incredible milk dns of my life. It turns out, it was about, like you're, incredible act, thoughtfulness and my blind willingness to trust you in any circumstance. You lead me down so many primrose pass. You don't give a shit Ah I guess you give a shit you apologized yeah. Guess I give up much of a shed one more thing, if you're worried that you may have been targeted with like this by The tool you can use is called flexi killer. It's made by group called security without borders. Can't scheme

your phone, but it can scan your computer to see if this offers on it, because then, if it can delete it, also, experiencing domestic violence for number. Is the national domestic violence hotline? It's one, eight hundred, seven, nine, nine! Seventy three three there there four hours a day. Seven days a week. Reply. I was hosted by Pga Vote and me outs. Goldman. Our show is produced truth, even in any visa abandoned in court procedures, no marketing, action assistance from Trina were editing. By TIM, Howard and Jorge just where mixed by require our themes, by the mysterious break, master cylinder and our add music is by build buildings, Matt Labour, is a balmy summer night, just hanging out on the back porch doing whatever

we're looking for a fall in turn, if you're interested in applying you can do so on our website. You deadline applications is nine, a m on. May twenty nine invest our website, while all that limo and you can find more episodes of the show on Apple pie, gas, Spotify or wherever they are listening to see into it. Fitbit

its base. Our irish small problem help it's another. Two hundred and twelve trillion miles back to earth, listen the whole way seriously. Did you check the routers? If we don't have internet on, we don't have navigation. You mean richest stuck here, for God's sake