Hey, hey, hey it's out and this week were taking a break from our cereal investigation. Missis. be God, Damn ballot, a Billy, Joe cereal is about a black teenager who died during a traffic. Stop by white shares deputy in Rural Mississippi, and nothing is what it seems: This is a story the grab me over a decade ago and wouldn't let me go until I told them over the past five episodes taking you through the entire case re, examining the investigation from the autopsy report, police interviewed and forensic evidence, so it all we ve looked at the case for the of history of Mississippi, but also America. It the heart mention right now the next day we'll be back with the first of the final two episodes, so fallen behind on the series. Now is the time to catch up. It's a That means a lot to me personally, and I hope you listen if you like what you

leave us review, find us on Apple podcast, Spotify or wherever you get your progress. Thanks for listening and happy thanksgiving from the co author, the New York Times best seller billion dollar whale comes a new. True crime, thriller FAT Leonard FAT Leonard, is the most shock in unknown tale of our era, Leonard Francis a three hundred fifty pound asian defence contractor bribed. U S. Navy officers with cash prostitutes and luxury item

in return for fraudulent multi million dollar deals now under house arrest and battling cancer. He's telling his story for the first time in fat, Leonard, angry and betrayed Leonard is taking no prisoners. What he has to say will shake the Navy to its core. Fat Leonard is releasing weekly episodes. Now on POG has platforms everywhere. Follower subscribed now got a fat Leonard podcast dot. Com for more information reveal is brought you by progressive. Are you thinking more about how to tighten up your budget? These days, drivers who saved by switching to progressive, save over seven hundred dollars on average and customers can qualify for an average of sixty counts when they sign up a little off your rate. Each man goes a long way, get a quote today at progressive dot com, progressive casualty, insurance company?

affiliates national annual average insurance savings by new customer surveyed who saved with progressive between June twenty twenty and made twenty twenty one potential savings will very discounts fair, and are not available in all states and situations. from the centre for investigative reporting and pr axe. This is reveal I'm Ike's risks Roger sitting in four outlets and we're taking a break from our seas I'm Billy Joe Johnson to bring you this story. It's magical time of year again and you're, probably spending too much time online shopping, no lines, endless choices, safe, easy secure, or at least that's the pitch for cyber,

Today, there are tons of incredible cyber Monday deals available on Amazon this week and free shipping on over a hundred million items. A little over a week. Actin of people will go Amazon to shop for holiday gifts by one count more than half the adults in. U S are using prime just think about that. While you might not care who finds out what gives you bought this probably some stuff you do by that. You wouldn't want people to know, because if you Think about it. Amazon knows a lot about you from the brand of tampons order to the anxiety medication, new take Amazon knows every book you ve read on Kindle the movies you ve streamed on Prime do use ring. Will then Amazon could know whose at your front door and yeah don't for

about Alexa. I hope your day is going well amateur, stores all that information, and we just trust that its secure and when I say trust, I really mean it. A twenty eighteen Georgetown University study found that Amazon the second most trusted institution in the: U S after the military, but some p, who worked at Amazon? Well, they paint a different picture. Take Joe he's a former customer service manager with Amazon. When I first started it was like the wild Wild West, Joe worked at Amazon for several years until twenty nineteen we're using a pseudonym to protect his identity, because Joe doesn't want to get on the wrong side

one of the world's richest companies, Joe, was fired from Amazon, but we checked out his story with other customer service wraps and, like them Joe says, employees at Amazon had a lot of access to customers, order histories there was nothing really preventing you internally from white but I want to stay with just introduced order who wish to legislate. Against course, you're supposed to one former customer service rap told reveal that few members coworkers looking up the car dashings to see if they ordered the kind of stuff you don't get to talk about on the radio. So I had to ask Joe ok his pathetically question do not that you did, but if you were going to look up the account of the image anybody that you could dream of looking up,

what would beard top three lest? Well, that's really interesting, I would like to see Kemal Harrison's accounts legacy that arrive yes, but I can't conservatives, I apologise, but I have to acknowledge, as I would love to look up GB preposterous the governor of Illinois usage is a giant. I'm from Illinois the way, I'm sorry, you know why. I honestly it said today's seventy per SE, Robin Williams. If you would have still been alive, I would I probably wouldn't up his Joe says it was as easy as a Google search, especially if you had a unique name in a like calmly Harris Amazon says it has strict policies and tools in place to limit access, but as of twenty nineteen, when Joe left Amazon It's almost like somebody like they show your house and yet others walks on. It

whereas in theirs winds, the things in cameras all around and you're like look ass curators unlike yet, but you you have no back door, there's no backdoor amounts each other's waterhouse. It also that's! That's kind of what it felt like and it wasn't just some employers is using this back door to spy on celebrities, Amazon insight. have been raising the alarmed top executives about how vulnerable the Tec giants. Most sensitive data was and reveal has learned Some shady companies went through another back door to take the personal information of millions of Amazon shoppers, When Amazon found out they kept it a secret from the very people. They say there obsessed with serving their customers, reveals Will Evans discovered what was happening Well, it's been reporting on Amazon for a while, you probably heard him and our showed this time last year, exposing

how Amazon workers were getting injured at sky high rates network made him a finalist for the Pulitzer. Hey will head ache? So can you tell us what you got this time? So I got to see a bunch of these internal documents written by the heads of Amazon's information security team and also talk to more than doesn't employees who worked in information, security and privacy at Amazon and most of the dock since I saw where these internal memos, spanning from twin, sixteen to twenty eighteen and these memos are a key part of how Amazon exacts do business. Ok. So what makes its members, so special well Jeff, Baisers, hates Powerpoint so memos at Amazon have to be six pages. There are literally called six pagers and the red island at the beginning of each meeting and recently read them in the room by the way, use bases explaining the six page

ETA leadership forum in twenty eighteen because, just like you know, high school kids, executives war off their way through the meeting as if they have read the member, because we're busy and so you got actually car about the time for the memo to get read. So I, like, I said I got see a bunch of these memos, so we're still in draft form by others- were actual six pagers and they were prepared, for one of Amazon, see owes the General Council and its chief financial officer. So basically the top executives yeah and my reporting shows that Amazon was so hyper focused on growth. It left the company vulnerable to some serious security risks like what Well, let me set the scene for you first, so any of these members are from twenty eighteen,

an Amazon was close to becoming a trillion dollar company, but even then Jeff Pesos had this Ethan. Said Amazon always worked like it was day one and That means staying lean, nimble like a start up cutting down, on the red tape. So employees could focus on making products and services to keep the company growing and to do that, on created this loose constellation of what they called to pizza teams. Some idea, which is known should be so large that it cannot be said with just two pages. It was agreed idea when they were a small company trying to build rapidly because Oh, you can do a lot with cupidity, that's Gary gagged and he was a vp of information. security at Amazon he started Twenty seventeen and lasted a little less than a year by the time Gary got there.

Amazon. Wasn't this scrappy online bookseller once was it had morphed into the everything store and had hundreds of thousands of employees rights? So many pizzas yeah, the true creature change didn't make it center anymore, because one thing you know, the other team was stolen. Gary wasn't the only person who saw a problem in this approach. There were thousands of these two pizza teams and, according to a memo from another former head of Amazon Security, Jeff Carter, these teams work having data popping it and storing it and random places that made it almost impossible for Amazon's data security team to keep track of it. All your network was humongous and it was all put together. We hate

problem gum in a six pager that Gary wrote to Amazon's top executives and twenty seventeen he said quote: we lack visibility into the data we are charged with protecting or as Gary put it to me. We have no idea where in data is, sounds like a prison admission from somebody was very high up at Amazon yeah and he's not the only one who had this concern now We invited Amazon onto the show, but they declined our request as usual and gave us written responses. Instead, Amazon says quote. We strongly region the assertion that, as a business, we don't keep track of sensitive data on customers and businesses and these memos are reviewed. Amazon says they're, just proof that they take sick pretty issues seriously. Now I should tell you Jerry was fired from Amazon

But according to him- and several people I spoke to it wasn't relate, to cyber security and a lot of stuffy saying lines up with the members and other interviews I had carries in charge here right. What is he doing to fix this? Will Gary set his whole department was under funded and understaffed? He said that to really protect the consumer he needs about a thousand people and his team by all had about a little over three hundred people. Gary told me, felt, like Amazon, didn't seem to understand what it really took to keep customer data safe. when he does for more resources to beef up security. More often than not, he was told. No. I was one Did you a category of reach, a lower overhead cost? make sure out ahead, isn't going faster than a profit. Now, Amazon disputes this they say quote: We will never sacrifice security for costs. Ok, so, back to this whole

Amazon, not knowing where our data is. If they don't know where it is, how can they protect it? Exactly that's the whole problem. I mean How can you make sure that the data is in being? stolen or leaked or used in appropriately and that affected security issues. It affected privacy issues and it really made the whole problem over coming and actually in an email and twenty seventeen one scene. Amazon engineer said that when it came to keeping customer data safe, it was like a bird little game of Wakeham. All that's a terrifying metaphor, because a game of Wakeham, all almost nobody ever gets all the moles exactly. Ok, so it's twenty eighteen and in eternal memo prepared for executive, says: Amazon

risk intelligence team. Stumbled on this sketchy company called, am Z, review the company promised to help Amazon sellers, get better reviews and boost their rankings So when you say sellers, you tell him at the businesses that sound on Amazon marketplace right, and many of these are small businesses and Amazon gives them the keys to a lot of their own customer data things like name Home address is phone numbers, the products they ve ordered and the dates they ordered them but one thing: Amazon, sellers dont have access to our customer email addresses in that Informations Privileged, because why? Well, sellers can use emails to reach out to customers say who the bad review and pressure them to take down the review. Amazon doesn't allow that, so they restrict access to the emails. Amazon Review promises sellers they can get them some of those emails. Okay, so

zone sellers can get. These emails from Amazon Review what is an easy review get out of it, in return. The seller gives Amity review the keys to all the rest of their customer data, so they can go, get it from Amazon System Amis, at the time said aims. You review likely got the personal information for almost five million Amazon customers. Amc review claimed had more than triple that number. Only fifteen million sixteen actually, okay, so did Amazon just allows sellers to give customer information from that many people to M C review. Well, it was deaf Lee against Amazon's rules, but Amazon hadn't really been enforcing them them oh says we have no way of knowing if the data was being accessed by actual sellers or by outside. Come

please abusing the system. Basically, the question was, who else sellers. Give Amazon's keys to severe understands correctly. I go on Amazon, I buy a phone charger. One of the sellers that happens to be using this AMC review service and this outside firm could be getting I personally information, even though I didn't ok, that or have any knowledge of them exactly and Amazon, meant that empty review was this offshoot of a Chinese. Analytics firm, who could be using this for anything to? What's it? Looking like inside Amazon when they find out about Amazon Review. Well, internally, the big deal, one of people I talk to you said when this made its way up the chain of command.

The color was draining from people's faces cause. Think about it. There were billions of customer order streaming out of Amazon system. An outside companies could be taking that data and selling it or using it to target customers. The memo even says we believe such use could violate customer trust. If customers understood what was happening morning, a decade from now remember Amazon discovered this twenty eighteen of the same year as Facebook Cambridge analytical scandal. Consumers are worried. Do they have any privacy anymore? They were all these congressional hearings were lawmakers were grilling tech companies on data privacy, because Cambridge Gentle Look I had everyone spooked yeah. I remember that store. That's when

Cambridge Analytical this political, consulting firm basically went through facebooks back door and hold of private information from millions of Facebook users and use that to help Donald Trumps, presidential campaign and people on the inside of Amazon said they couldn't help but think of Cambridge Annelida when they learned of Amity Review. No, we do no what AMC, review and companies like it we're doing with all that customer information, but the way they got it. It is similar to Cambridge analytical so I'm a regular guy. I'm a farmer k, I'm not a technology person. So, at the September of twenty eighteen and Congress once input from tech companies on how to craft of federal privacy law, we ve got officials from Google Apple Twitter to telecom firms and

Amazon. So knowing what we know, what's listen to this question from Senator John Tester he's a Democrat representing Montana. If say, a russian firm were to ask for that information, or a chinese firms have any. We ve been asked for information from a firm that does business in other countries, and you will be given to him or sold a tomb private or not any response to that. No response to the no yes or no Just don't know too did anyone respond. Yeah, Google Apple one of those telecom firms. They all said they don't sell their information Amazon doesn't respond here, but earlier they said there

not in the business of selling personal information, but if you listen closely, tester was also asking if they given data to companies in other countries, and this hearing was four months after Amis risk intelligence, team, discovered, am Z review, so at the same time, tester is asking this question Amazon new had been allowing giant quantities of sensitive customer information to go out the door to a chinese company. So will you Amazon about AMC review. Did they tell you what they did if they fix the problem well in Amazon's written response to us. They said they put in place more exhaustive data protection policies and procedures and more limits on the third parties who could access its data Amazon. All

revoked Amity reviews, access tall that customer information and suspended the sellers who gave him those keys. and in general Amazon says it has quote an exceptional track record of protecting customer data and that the claims are based on all documents, said, don't represent how it's running things today. I do think it's worth noting I asked them how many people had their data scooped up by companies who were missed? using Amazon system, and they just wouldn't say that's reveals, will Evans the story was produced. by not yet I'm done. Some in Congress had been pushing for federal privacy. Girls to keep customer data sake democratic. So round wide and is working on a bill right now he sent a statement sing. Sending sensitive customer data. To quote

unfriendly nations- can pose a serious threat to our national security and he says quote its rageous that Amazon shared millions of customers transaction data with the firm in China coming up next, how Amazon Security issues have made sellers targets for sabotage it wake up. Every morning, deceive you, gonna, pull down like a dread. Waking up to the UK, they can sell on Amazon. You know that was like the norm. You listening to reveal

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a text the word reveal to four hundred and seventy four thousand seven hundred and forty seven standard data rates apply and you can text stop at any time again. Text reveal to four hundred and seventy four thousand seven hundred and forty seven. Thank you. Supporting the show from the centre for investigative reporting and p r acts. This reveal I'm ice. come the rajah filling in four outlets. In this hour, we ve been telling you about Amazon the place where you can buy. Almost anything Amazon has come a long way from when it first started, selling books online. Here's reveals will ever Amazon is obviously one of the world's largest retailers

in the: U S, small businesses, for more than six thousand items on Amazon every minute. more than half of the sales made on Amazon come from these independent sellers. Today there were around two million small business owners selling on Amazon and Anna Lamb, is one of them. I've been, on Amazon since two thousand and fourteen nothing so in one of the priorities by one count, independent sellers like Anna helped Amazon bringing around three hundred billion dollars and sales in twenty twenty, and it turns out that some those independent sellers fell victim to a kind of human virus, one that infiltrated Amazon system and infected their businesses. Reveals will Evans Energy Bernini tell us how Sellers like an a came under attack,

has an online store, she has a brick and mortar store to its in New York City Chinatown, and that's where I met her this summer A small store within industrial world and address in care products were lined up neatly on the metal shelves, some skin care products. a serum. I oil and awry span for the face people Anna grew up on the island of now will of its way off the coast of us. Failure. She eventually moved to New York City, where she worked as a creative director, an ad agency after the birth of her daughter, Anna, took inspiration from holistic practices like acupuncture, aroma therapy and natural skin care. I just like to do. Skinnier every woman

loves, concur Anna loved it so much. She says she flew to London to take courses and how to make the stuff and in twenty eleven and I made skin care her official side. Hustle China opened up a store on the online shopping site at sea and eventually opened one on Amazon too. She named restore ginger cheese and Anna. The ginger she brand of personal touch. She made her daughter, the face of the company she's a model and she's in most of my press and on my leaflets and posters, and I was trying to grow ginger key and you know, come up with more products to sell and that's what she thought of Jade roller jade is very important in chinese culture in check These tradition, Jane thought to have healing properties and a roller. It's what it sounds like a piece

jade shaped sort of like a tiny rolling pin on a handle that you press and roll over your face, I'm told it's one of those must have things if you're really into skin care. something that the Chinese are used in their beauty regiment. You hear about it that the Empress use it. Anna look for jade rollers on line, but wasn't impressed These were not jade, rollers fit for an empress, so she travel. to Northeast China, to source the stone and around twenty fourteen Anna debuted, the ginger she Jade roller on Amazon Anna says, in those early years, business was slow, but this is the internet and what helps a product really take off. I made a mistake. very and singing a celebrity endorsement.

indeed the space, that's actress, layer, Michel from the tv musical glee and in twenty seventeen. She posted in Instagram story, saying quote so obsessed with my ginger Jade Face roller. The actress has an online following in the millions and then, if it aim like this is a role as a good and from then on it, which is why, like wildfire and fear of the shells in twenty seventeen, just three years after debuting booing her jade roller on Amazon Anna Quitter Day job to work full time on she one day, Anna was checking out other jade roller listings on Amazon. You now looking at our competitors, when she saw a familiar face, I notice them box at my daughter's images that box it was first jade roller. Only it wasn't ginger cheap.

Another seller was using a picture of Anne S, daughter on their branding. Amazon's policy says you can't just outright copy your competition so Anna filed a complaint, you can go to sort of support and they got got pull down, not to use an image, and it doesn't think much of this copycat seller she figures: Amazon's, taking care of it plus ginger cheese. Taking on and so Anna's busy mailing out orders and she was getting, ready to move for business out of living room and into storefront Manhattan, and I didn't know, but that copycat seller the kind of virus, Amazon's marketplace and Michael we will Evans found out. It was spreading.

and those copycat seller went by the name crazier on Amazon and that trade mark was registered to occur company run by Mohammed Multi them are Ali. I found him online and he looked like He was living large again trotting young man in his twenties. He was getting a computer science degree at the University of Toronto. He looks coffin, and fashionable as he travels the world in one foot. Oh, he's writing. In a helicopter in Dubai and in another writing a camel and Jordan back and twenty seventeen, when Craig Their first copied Anna, he was getting worse. mutation in the Amazon seller community foresee advertising top sellers vat Crazier was the subject of a CNBC article. It was about how cut Throat Amazon had become in addition to Jade. Rollers crazy, had sold all kinds of random stuff everything from past repellents to anti snoring aids.

one small business owner on Amazon who sold a top selling facial steamer CNBC that he lost around four hundred thousand dollars because of crazies attacks and a cry representative texted him claiming to be the virus of Amazon Amazon's response to the story was that quote: if we discover that bad actors have abused our systems, we worked quickly to take action on You of our customers and sellers by even For that CNBC article dropped, crazier was on the attack again, it's twenty eighteen and crazy Spelt K are a as are is be a sea kay back at us, crazy copy, ginger, cheese, jade rollers and they She believes key told Amazon. I was keeping him Amazon's.

spending, ginger cheap in response and mysterious complains of how the company broke the rules that men and it can sell her jade roller. I was. Down like three times they couldn't self the two months or three months, which hurt a lot, and I couldn't really prove that it was crazy. But the next wave of attacks confirm that crazier was, after her And I realize that creature had somehow taken over her jade ruler, listing basically customers. During Ginger Cheat jade rollers were being sent copycat rollers instead, and many of them were branded crazier, leaving some custom. Feeling ripped off over this beaten switch. This is all happening digitally, but this is how it would translate into the physical world imagined. Easier breaking into ginger cheese, bricks and mortar store in Manhattan and he's behind the counter song is now

a cough jade rulers and taking all the money oh and by the way Anna she's locked out of the store watching it all happened. many things to pull me down or to attack me, but Anna needed prove So she ordered ginger. Chee jade rulers, If she were regular Amazon customer to see what a regular customer would get what we have said. This is here, and this is mine- Anna showed me the jade roller she got in the mail so how many crazy ones he didn't think tat they would manage to have his name so crazy, crazy and then crazier sum of Anna's customers

complained about the crazy jade rollers they received and left negative feedback and ginger cheese reviews, so Anna says crazier than just copy her product hijacker listing steel, her sales, but he also tarnished her brand Anna reported her findings to Amazon. She hired lawyers to write, pleading letters to the company in two or three lawyers I had to Austria, but Anna says the attacks continue. it started to chip away on the money than I had earned and I went into the red she was afraid she going to go out of business and as all this was unfolding Anna had this hunch about why she can't seem to get Amazon to fix. The price Maybe this insight is, I don't know my colleague

we'll Evans says Anna was onto something for years. Internal Amazon reports had found that way too many employees had access to wait information as crazy or was it packing Anna one internal memo warned of the ability for a rogue employee to abuse internal systems for their own purposes, it goes on to say that these internal threat actors have powerful tool an insight into our business operations that provide opportunities to impact our customers. Remember Gary Gagner the former VP of Information Security at Amazon. We heard from him earlier in the show, and Gary says during this time at Amazon that threat weighed on him. What kept me up at night, he insider, then what the insider can do. Anything

at that time, Amazon didn't have a team dedicated to rooting out these insider threats so there wasn't an actual programme in place inside the program you know now, when I was there, that's on scary. Well, We know it was scary to me and after Gary was fired and twenty seventeen Amazon discovered just how real that threat was a year later, crazy or finally, grabbed the attention of Amazon execs. In a draft memo prepared for the companies top Brass dated November twenty eighteen, the secure, the division reported that crazier was sadly causing other Amazon sellers and Betty had accomplices more inside of Amazon. The memo said this seller route. Prudence are employees over linked in and Facebook.

over a series of years, crazy spend around a hundred and sixty thousand dollars to bribe of an Amazon workers. exchange. These employees gave crazy, or God like powers to go after his competition. Amazon suspend sellers for breaking the rules, but crazy moles could get them reinstated. His moles would also suspend other sellers for crazy and they leak sensitive busy Information to him about his competition when the employees were caught. They spilled their secrets and all seven of them were fired. That's it Turning to the same November, twenty eighteen draft memo, but crazy or himself proved elusive and Amazon trying to figure out how many more moles wherein it system we asked

Amazon, about crazier and in a written response. The company said it had referred crazy to law enforcement in twenty eighteen, Amazon also said it has robust technology processes and teams to identify these bad actors and take swift action. It also said quote: we contain you to enforce and will remove sellers of relations with Mohammed Malta's him off bar Ali, the person behind crazy Who gave you this information? shared what we learned about crazy with Anna to let her know that our hunch about insiders at Amazon was correct, but crazy attacks had taken at all, and I have come to the collusion that building a successful brand on Amazon might not be worth it

Wake up every morning, deceive you, gonna, be pulled. Anti like over dread. Waking up its sometime better, not to be a bestseller smoke. as for Anna is still on Amazon, but it's just not as important our business anymore. It does some bills, but China is not that supportive of small businesses. I think they're trying, but I think it's still difficult. The sellers protected. You know anyone rogue sellers get inside access to game the marketplace. You end up with counterfeits, fake reviews and products. You just can't trust Sure it might be convenient, but buyer and seller beware That story was reported by Will Evans and produced by the cheap and meaning

Amazon said it removed Mohammed Motors in Iraq by Ali from its marketplace, but we found out he still there. He runs a new company that lots of goods on Amazon, including yes, jade rollers. So how many crazies are out there? like turning on the kitchen. Like you know, the cockroaches scattered, but you know are still in the walls when we come back, we turn on the kitchen life. That's next unrevealed, if you like, we do and you want to help. Well, it's pretty simple just right.

It is a review on Apple pie, cast it's easy and only takes a few seconds. Just open the apple podcast up on your phone search for reveal then scroll down to where you see right or review and their tell them how much. You love the host Europe, It makes it easier for listeners to find us and it really does make a difference. And if you do it, you will get a personal. Thank you for me like right now like thank none him, not not you yeah. you thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. the centre for investigative reporting and pr acts. This is reveal I'm Ike's risk on the Rajah filling in for a lesson

When an lamb realized her online business was getting attacked, she asked Amazon for help but says she didn't get the support you he added? I felt that they didn't really care as long as I'm found it was sold, they would get a percentage. That's my thinking for every products sold, Amazon gets a cut of the sales, so whether Anna or crazier cells. The jade roller Amazon makes money sellers, we spoke to believe that's one of the reasons. Amazon doesn't do more to police the marketplace and protect the little guys. Despite the Tec giants. Assurances that they do I believe there are a lot of options for small Sars. I live. Amazon is a great one. That's Amazon's, founder Basis in twenty twenty, when he testified before the House antitrust subcommittee, we worked very hard. I think we are the best one

only a basis, a lot of different programmes that help sellers to a lot of different programmes that help sellers, but there's a cry. Mass of Amazon sellers who believed the Tec giant isn't doing enough to protect them, and so a cottage industry of consultants, lawyers and conferences has sprung up. Reveals, Will Evans and achieve Meaney. Take us to this wild frontier of. Online Commerce. The Amazon memos I reviewed only went through twenty eighteen and that's when, as business got attacked too. So we wanted to fight doubt if Amazon sellers today are facing these kinds of threats,

These two find out Magee, went to an Amazon sellers conference in New York. This summer will visit the first conference. I don T since covered, and I remember why conference I met the Son sellers Telegram Conference in the MID neighbourhood of Brooklyn, mostly we want here, is an Amazon selling looking for tips to help grow their business I'm here for another reason: Amazon seller you and Amazon seller an Amazon. I talked about half a dozen people and ask of attack still happen on Amazon like the ones that text still, they all say, it's sort of become the cost business players are everywhere. You Norman you, take one down. Ten more goes up and also itself is a constant process, crazy,

pungent Alzheimer Jane S, beauty on nutrition and Amazon seller. how often have you been taken down, process pensions that you feel like a suspicious or who happens to everybody, so it's called black hat techniques of the monopoly this assembly. How often is that type of behaviour happen? I'll give you. My first name is Chris said I'm going to tell her on Amazon. Are there still kind of nefarious actors out there? I don't think it's ever going to go away, you're always going to have people working to Fraud Oregon. Oh either, specifically after somebody or specifically at random, the organiser of the conference says it kind of began as a support group for sellers getting to spend it on Amazon. It started as a group text social media group on television. Facebook redo, I'm just quick alone of over sixty thousand people? That's Ed Rosenberg, for we always attracted that sort of advanced, serious,

You know what I want to get pushed around, but we don't it's ecosystems. On the one hand, the suspensions evidence that Amazon is policing at sight by booting off suspected counter there's cheaters and corrupt sellers On the other hand, that actors have been web eyes. Amazon system of suspending sellers remember What happened to Anna but sellers, who don't think they ve broken any rules, at least not intention, say when Amazon suspects them of wrong. Doing it's really difficult for them to talk to someone at Amazon. You're not going to call the not mentality conversation. You can ultimately I and I did not want to happen at says. He realized how much help sellers needed

So, in addition to running this conference he also started a consulting service and there are a bunch of these services out there. My colleague Will Evans found out that these consultants can take very different path. It's when trying to help their clients. Cynthia Stein is the owner of e growth partners. It's been around since twenty fifteen and help sellers have been suspended. Cynthia says they ve helped about ten thousand sellers and the price to help get a business reinstated. She says, is anywhere from two to five thousand dollars. First, let me be very clear: I am no secret contacts at Amazon. I do not contact them to help us with our clients- that's not allowed by Amazon and so client,

pay Cynthia to write their appeals to Amazon. They call it the Court of Amazon, great King Baisers, because Amazon is ultimately the judge and executioner and if ammo, on is like a monarchy. Cynthia, is a sort of scholar The rules of the kingdom, for example. She said when Amazon shuts down a small business where you get from Amazon as a template ladder and basely says you know, you're not allowed to do that, twenty things and then the thing you did, they will tell you what that is, so lifetime. Our job is to play twenty questions with our clients were like what about this. What about that, and Cynthia says in writing thousands of appeals to Amazon. She seen what works and what does it everything

now we have learned by observation and experimentation, because we have no guidance from Amazon right, there's an alternative to going with. You, though, that might be quicker. I mean there are services than say we will get you and suspended quickly. Yes, we call that the easy button unfamiliar with the easy but I've seen these services online, they openly advertise, they can get cell there's reinstated really fast. Some can even get customer emails for sellers which they're not supposed to have an internal screen, charts of confidential info on Amazon system. This is what people in the industry referred to as black hat tactics, basically breaking the rules to get what you want. There were these black hat brokers and they had you know, sheets and they will get you reinstated in sometimes a few hours. The reason I as their bribing somebody in Amazon, to reinstate you. So that is exactly

you know what the indictment was about last year. These people were bribing amazonian in India to reinstate somebody. Actually, we have put the switch it's like flipping the switch and that indictment I'll. Let no job explain the indictment Cynthia's talking about was handed down by a federal grand jury in the western district in Washington in September of last year. It accuses six people, Conspiring to pay more than a hundred thousand dollars in bribes to Amazon, employees in a scheme that continued from at least two thousand and seventeen to twenty twenty and the indictment states that one member of the group sent a suitcase filled with cash in an uber to pay for services that would help clients. They were working with

Like Cynthia, that person was a consultant to Amazon sellers and we met him earlier. We always try to do everything right and it's something wrong right. Remember ed! conference organised in Europe he was under indictment. When I spoke to him, I ask Ed. Why Amazon sellers resorted dirty tricks and answer using a sports metaphor, if you're dead, if I had not the biking, meditating tour de france- you don't, I would add, means the biting rates. You know Whence Armstrong culture of cheating again there are. Fifteen people are doping and seventeen people in it. So if you don't do it you're sure to lose man you do to you may get caught at this point. I sense that it wants to anyone.

I'm really I gotta go last question last question I had to ask about: the indictment can come and didn't want to talk about it, but all those bribes, according to the indictment, resulted in an unfair competitive edge an image worth more than a hundred million dollars to those sellers who were held. Cynthia sees the indictment as a step forward for Amazon. The first I had was it's about time They were finally willing to talk about it. Amazon said it worked with the feds on the case, but in died. Men also means airing Amazon's, dirty laundry, it into a lot of detail about how badly Amazon system had been breached Cynthia wonders how much more or Amazon is willing to expose. The indictment was lighter turn on the kitchen light. You know the cockroaches scattered, but you know

are still in the walls there. Still there you, I could still go by data. If I wanted to let you know, proprietary Amazon, this facts customers to re, because it means that you can't really trust the system. Now. That's the other thing. That's really! so you're going out and you're buying. Your wonder and then, as a complete, he surprised at your like. How can this all these other people want it. Well, it's because they ve got. Get rid of all the other negative reviews and I have written a whole bunch of fake positive reviews, and so consumers much more savvy when shopping on Amazon, Amazon said in his statement that the company take swift action when it detects fraud, and that quote, as result of our efforts, bad actors, that attempt to abuse our systems make up a tiny fraction of activity in our store, and the company said it's responsive to sellers.

Jobs more than eighty five percent of all seller issues in under twenty four hours. Cynthia says she still believes. Amazon is a wealth building engine for small businesses. Absolutely deposit These are what you can do on Amazon when everything goes right is terrific, but Cynthia believes there needs to be some accountability and makers and regulators are scrutinising whether Amazon has too much power over small businesses on its marketplace, because you now Amazon as dictator king, you know, benevolent overlord. All of the above dies- nine healthy, there's just nine how business should be but with Amazon's dominance in online retail growing Cynthia says sellers don't have much choice but to submit to the monarchy.

That story it was reported by Will Evans and achieve a meaning and produced by Amy, Mustapha We'll story on Amazon was done in partnership with wire, be sure to check their December issue and wired dot com to read his peace or go to our web, reveal news dot, org Our lead producer for this good show is new Jeep unmeaning nodded calm down and Amy Mustapha also helped produce. This show Queen Akim, edited the show additional editing from Andy Donoghue and talk. You telling me this special thanks to CNBC, quarter ARI Levy and too hired magazine editor John Grub locked in thanks to drew Moreau truck

looked me very nasty for their help on this story. Next week Alice back with his investigation into the death of teens Football star Billy Joe Johnson, in Mississippi, we look into allegations Billy job was harassed by police and what not an arrogant, be on file that no road, no trace of borders. There was also an arrest that's next week on reveal, which means now is the time to catch up and serious if you ve fallen behind. You can find it in reveals podcast feet. Victoria bearing Netscape is our General Council are production manager is Amy, must stop us Gore and sound designed by Jim Briggs and Fernando Aruba. They had helped this week from Stephen Ruskin, clear Molin and Kathryn style Martinez, our digital

producer is Sarah Mark Castle Navarro, is our audience. Strategist are in Theo is any shameful sue me Agro Wally's. Our interim editor in chief and our executive producer is given Sullivan, Arthur music is by Colorado. Lightning support for review is proven. by the Raven David Logan Foundation, the John Dene Catherine Team, Macarthur Foundation, the Jonathan Low, and family foundation. The Ford Foundation, the highs and Simons Foundation, the Helmand Foundation, the democracy fund and the in as much foundation review is a co production of the center for investigative reporting and prx. I'm like street scum, the Raja Film, I'll. Let simple who likes to remind you that It's always more to the story.

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