« Reveal

Bundyville Revealed

2019-08-10 | 🔗

**A bombing in rural Nevada you’ve probably never heard of. A plot to blow up a government building.  Reveal teams up with the podcast series, Bundyville, produced by Oregon Public Broadcasting and Longreads, to see what happened to rancher Cliven Bundy’s supporters since his original armed standoff with the government.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hey. It is your favorite host in all of pod custom. Now for the rest of the year, I'm gonna be asking you to join us by becoming a member of reveal reveal is all about going deep, pulling on threads telling stories that matter for more than three years now reveal has been fighting a lawsuit. That's been jeopardizing our very existence of restore. We about an organization called planet aid. Our story raises serious questions about whether international aid was actually reaching the people. It was intended to help and what's more, our story was truthful and we stand by it. We believe it's our duty to fight attacks like this, but fighting a lawsuit comes at a huge costs, are legal fees alone totalled more than seven million dollars? Luckily, we have pro bono legal support to help our in house counsel, but it still takes significant resources, resources that should be used to do more public service journalists, this kind of investigative,
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to mass shootings happened within hours of each other. Over thirty people were killed afterwards, people asked a familiar question: how could this be happening today? We're gonna be tackling that question by looking at how group of people with extremist ideas embraced violence, violence, yet their way and how their beliefs of spread and in some ways become more dangerous. The story takes us back to January twenty, sixteen, The sun is shining in the sky, but the ears frigid in a small Oregon town, a man in a cowboy had in a thick one of flannel climbs up a snow bank at the edge of a grocery store parking lot. In calls out too Out of his supporters, I'm asking you to follow me and go into them. Your national, while my refuge and we're gonna make our stance that aim in Burundi your speech on the snowbank kicked off a six week. Arm stand off with the federal government in a remote bird sanctuary.
Winter its crucial that you understand what's going on here. What this issue is truly about its about our federal government taking over private property. This Bundy's second arm stand off. He and his supporters believed that the federal government has no right public lands and she turned them over to the states diamonds, Father Clive in Burundi has for decades use public land to Greece, his cattle, but refused to pay the federal fees and twenty fourteen the federal government came to collect and that ended in the first arm stand off with the Bundy's at their ranch in Bunker fuel Nevada. We take you back to the stand offspring. They led directly to our story today. How anti government groups and individuals surface to support the Bundy's didn't go away when the Bundy's did instead over the past few years, people within those groups have become
or emboldened and willing to use violence to get what they want today were teaming up with about gas Bundy will produce by organ public broadcasting and long reads to see how the violence that started with the Bundy's has spread Bonneville closely. As ITALY joins me now earlier, he has gone so before we get to season to remind us what happened to the Bundy's after those two standoffs came to an end. Both of those ended with these trials that a lot of critics. Say the government botched so with the Nevada case, they ended in a mistrial and and again. They ended in acquittals for for the Bunny brothers in their co defendants so some motivating the Bundy's mean. How did they get to the point of the first stand off, I think to understand the bunny, You gonna have to understand that where they come from, there is a real kind of anti government sentiment that a lot of people share. You can
look to when the Mormons came west in eighteen hundred part of the reason they did. That was to get away from the are all government, but then the government came to them and sort of This idea that a lot of Mormons in that area feel that they were persecuted for their religion by the government, so all of this kind of lead to Craven Bundy, standing off with the government and twenty fourteen Soulier How did those religious beliefs cut of DR this this confrontation with the federal government, the Bundy's hauled up pretty specific set of free his religious beliefs that a lot of Mormons would not agree with, and in fact the mainstream Mormon Church in SALT Lake City would agree with. So my reporting led me to this thing called the white horse prophecy, which is basically this kind of urban legend among Mormon communities that that some people believe Joseph Smith. The profit of the church told early Mormons that they would settle on the rocky mountains
one day the U S, constitution would hang by a thread, and it would be up to the Mormon people to save that from ruin. Now the church and SALT Lake doesn't think this is actually a real prophecy, but the Bundy my does in a lot of other people in these kind of anti government communities, also believed that they believe that their fight against the government is them actually saving the constitution from Rio, and so, where do the Bundy's motivations and beliefs overlap with other groups that you been tracking sense? If you look at the the anti government movement- you might remember things like Ruby Ridge and the Waco stand off with a branch dividends and both of those events ended and people dying at the hands of the government. A lot of those were kids, so the anti government groups use, though incidents is as recruitment tools times when they can say, look that the federal government will come after people who live differently or
you, things their own way and they kind of turn a blind eye to the laws that were being broken by those people involved in Ruby region Waco. So those events really info Kevin Bundy in his belief that the government was after people so than when they came to collect his grazing fees. He was seeing it as just the next chapter of Ruby region Waco, but a more recent turning point happen at the second one. Stand up, there was a shooting of one of the leaders of the occupation and that's going on to inspire people to this day, yeah that and that was killed during the occupation was a guy named Le Voice finical. So, during the occupation, authorities head orchestrated traffic, stop in a rural area wit with no cell reception, where they could easily the arrests, the leaders of the occupation, so they pull over these two cars and they arrest
Amman Bundy. They arrest several other people, but Lovejoy Finical decided to drive away from that traffic. Stop actually tried to blow through a roadblock drive around it, to the snow, and then he he jumped out of the car. All that was cordial deep in you narrative force in the first season of Burundi. Will the scene picks up right after the voice. Finical jumps out of his car and warning. This is tape of a police shooting. I'm on fires, two shots that hit the trial. He stumbles through kneedeep snow. He shouted his hands are up at first then he reaches for his jacket. Pocket inside is a loaded handgun. He puts his hands up again and he reaches hands up reach. Finally, police do shoot him
He never manage to grab the gun. So investigators release this video and in two different vantage points. One was aerial but it from a law enforcement drawn, the other was take in by a smartphone by people inside the cab of the truck. So what video you see everything unfold like you there. How did this incident add more fuel to the fire for the anti government movement Well, the response was almost immediate shortly after the shooting a memorial popped up at the snowbank were people who suffer The Bundy's and the anti government movement talked about it like it was a murder or an assassination or kind of this carefully orchestrated hit. By the government on a member of the Patriot movement, even though it was so clear from that footage that you saw these two angles and he saying you're gonna have to shoot me that that it was a justified, please shitting. So in his
death. I really found in my months even years of an investigation that it becomes really twine with the militia, groups in these anti government groups that showed up at the Bunny stand us and it became this target for their anger, and that's where you pick up with season to tracking those other groups the tells a little about them like who they are and what are they doing sure at both of us? The Bundy's high profile stand ass. You saw groups like the oath keep which is one of the largest most well known militias across the country, came to their side. You saw another militia group called the three per centres. Chapters from near by states coming to their side on. My reporting are starting to see these other threats, picking up
white supremacy and violence in these ideologies that that had been there a long before these two standoffs, I think, is important to note that groups like the oath keepers, were actually in Charlottesville taking the side of the old rights during the protests it happen there, yeah, and I think that these are groups that generally wouldn't be very fired up about. Ranching rightly, the Bundy's sort of provided a great platform to fight the government, and that's often, I think, with take away that my reporting has found is that it it has very little to do with the constitution, has very little to do with ranching. Oftentimes is just looking for new ways to fight off the government and to kind of force a belief system like what we side at Charlottesville on display. That's certainly hosted the pod series Bundy Veil, so How does that belief, system inspire violence when we come back Leah investigates
by heading to the scene of a bombing in the follow car with explosives, he would have them. That's coming up on reveal from the centre for investigative aborting. Mp are Ex from the centre for investigative reporting in p r eggs vis is reveal a mallet today were teaming up with the creators of the park, has Bundy fell from organ public broadcasting, and Reed's their second season dropped a couple weeks ago in their investigating some, acts of domestic tear that are connected to the Bundy's supporters ceasing to be gins with a bombing in the summer of twenty. Sixteen that about you never heard of a warning.
Before we started. This story contains some violence seems his Bundy will host LISA Tilly connected this gravelly town on the Nevada side of the border. With you talk about three hours: North of LAS Vegas, a desert outpost that was founded in the eighteen. Sixties by Mormon, pioneers Kanaka is God country in such the western cliche, that I literally watched a tumble, we'd roll down the middle of the street. Now much happens here, but that was the case on July, thirteenth, twenty, sixteen ninety one one whether there were any man MA, am take a breath for me. Ok and I can bear and yet he sent you gonna kill you.
You go up the car with explosives. Your mother, They are you away from the home, deafening clever. Inside her house with their three daughters when a man into the door said he was blow her house up? She should get the kids and leave the man, then lit the fuse on the balmy put inside the house to his car got inside linen their Bonn and shot him often the head, then everything blew up and Shrapnel, went every what curving in long arcs over the town just down the street. The county. There are some black smoke and a mushroom
billowing into the sky Gimme death a moment, but I do need commissioner information free. Ok, I need to have at their so she goes with this budget She goes back to jail. I need help up here right now. You start your own crazy. All the lines tied up all the all night online, all administrative wife, also just It was a position. That's me, in county sheriff. Carry Lee He was down the street. He had no. Idea what was going on or who is involved, but Tiffany cloth, new bomber, maybe the guy who came with Glenn Jones, You came into your house and you would have Sheriff Lee was just standing in his yard with his dog when it happened, so he It is dark inside grabbed, the keys, spectral rig and drove toward the chaos, and I literally felt it in my chest. I felt a concussion in my chest.
Then I could see the mushroom cloud come up over the earth in the world and I fear the lot. I could hear the power this The last place that anyone expected a bond go off. Tiffany cloth, nice bomber, but no one else had any idea. What was going on it was sheriff. He's job to respond and figure it out. So I grab the keys my patrol rig and by the time I got to my patrol car, the second explosion, and the more he told us about it. The crazy the story guide. We pull up and, of course, people from community were already pulling their vehicles and we share the waves were cars they get into the two where the houses and we were way. Doesn't stop. Stop stop you're over body parts. I said what they run run were body parts and its listen look over there. Look over there, there's a subtle eggs from the meltdown. Legs and rode. The first, on behalf of the house of Tiffany in her husband, Josh Cloth. They were,
nurses in town and lived there with their kids Josh home when it happened in the rest of the family escaped just in time. The sex Bomb was in a car park next to the house and the man inside the bomber was Glenn Jones. A former nurse who used to work with Josh Jones was the only person hurt in the bombing but wench carefully pulled up to the scene. He had no way of knowing that it was absolute mayhem. There's body parts everywhere. Lee is of the towns coroner and when he pulled up to this the bombing he thought his top priority was identifying whoever got hurt, but he can't you identify someone by just their legs, so he started looking for the rest of the body, and we did not ask for the over torso, which is what we need for notification. After about the way I'm gonna do care, but that's not why I need I need to talk on his legs Eddie I mean I need fingerprints. Any dental records that stuff to build
If someone, it took investigators about fourteen hours to fund the top half of Glenn Jones when they did He wasn't laid out on his back and easy to identify. He was a tree in the labour yard bizarre, but even more bizarre was that when they the body and how these strange tattoos on it in the course of astrogation? He was identified by a couple of ways he we readily. Fingerprints were able to get some some dental and crazy enough tattooed on his chest said, the inner which do not resist and phone number for the victim of the house is very bizarre. Damascus stupid cos.
That's my pretty Sir Ryan Hass. When you go, I saw the phone number tattooed. Did you call the number? You also really good question. I think we looked up our system as other jobs. Ask someone in Panada about Glenn Jones and they'll say they knew him. Nice guy blew up a house one time. It was strange. He sat more than one panic and tells me they wouldn't want to speculate about why a bombing occurred in their town then offer an opinion anyway. For the most part, people think the bomb could have been allowed. Messy expression of workplace grievance between Glenn Jones and Josh cloth. Josh at one time was when's boss at the local hospital, and they were good friends. Glenn even help Josh build this house in Managua.
But several months before the bombing Glenn left his job at the hospital around the same time, he also asked his nursing licence from handling morphine, so people think maybe Glenn blamed Josh. Cheerfully tells me within hours of the bombing it became an FBI investigation. We also have all squad and everything from LAS Vegas. They brought up cadavers living dogs army. They brought up robots, there was a whole thing. I mean it's a big show the next day. In all the F B, I told me when asked for comment was at its quote. The policy of the FBI not to confirm or deny the existence of an investigation. It was clear now, Woody in town can really answer my questions and outside of Panada. Not many people know about it The national news didn't cover it. This the bombing on american soil ensure no one, was heard except the bomber himself,
it's hard to imagine if he'd been brown or black or anyone else, but white guy. Did this would have been a non story. It's only after I left bonanza that I found a possible answer in answer that, pointed to something beyond a petty disagreement between coworkers So after visiting Panada, I started calling around to try to get answers. I found out that. Glenn Jones, got some training in field artillery during his eleven years in the army and National Guard, when he never saw combat I also learned that he had been living in Kinmen Arizona and, in our view, park right before the bonding happened after the bombing team in police Department, rated Glenn, Joneses Aren t they found bombing materials inside and a few spy There are bound journals with Joneses name on the cover inside one. There were diagrams for a bomb. One detective said quote
The entries indicated that Glenn Jones had been approached by a subject identified as Josh who offered to pay him to construct an explosive device? The intended target? officer, wrote, was identified as fourth of July Beale M Field Office. That's the Bureau of Land management. The same fare government agency that got into the She'll dispute with the funding is, but here's where get murky. Because the fourth of July I came and went that year. Nothing happened, and by July thirteen, Jones decided instead to target Josh Cloth here, share flee I truly still to this day, don't truly know what the victim and suspects. Through relationship was. I know there were friends at one point and there were very good friends. I wondered if there is a chance Jones or cloth might have had some beef with the federal government. Some reason they would have wanted to bomb appeal and field office and it turned out there was. It goes back to the eye,
capacious of the here national Wildlife Refuge in Oregon. When one is it Europe's leaders. Lovejoy Finnegan was shot and killed while trying to avoid that police barricade in twenty sixteen when the bomb went The Nevada at the club, Home Finnegan was already dead and the page Movement was talking about him as a martyr proof of a tyrannical gov. Murdering Americans everywhere. You look in patriot movement, you'll see Fit comes cattle brand on hats, shirts, Tattoos Bell, buckles flags, bumper stickers, peep. Right songs about him, he's becomes figurehead of a movement in their report- came in police.
That there is an entry in Joneses Notebook indicating that low voice and it comes death A possible motive for the planned attack on the bill AM office in that quote. Josh the cousin of Lovejoy Finnegan. I was eight the confirm the Josh Club is related to finish, come, but that's not proof involved. So ass cheerfully was clef angry at the guy men over his cousins death. He said he couldn't say buddy told us a story about a time way before the bombing that we did, The anti government signed a cloth. Hidden. Why give us too many details since it of someone having a medical crisis, but the judge was that, hospital sheriff we ask Cleft, help give medical attention to one who couldn't decide to ask for it themselves. Cliff wasn't having it yet really. Angry started yelling a little bit of an eye opening about how Josh felt about government
its unclear. Whether cloth and Jones were working together to bind the and building at first and something went wrong or of Jones working alone and decided to bomb clubs house for some other reason. So what happened, between the two of them clutches ever given any straight answers about Jones early or a bomb at a bill, I'm office shortly. For the bombing the cliffs packed up with few belongings, they could savage moved to Idaho again. Police have not said that the family has done anything wrong. They only confirmed that they did. In fact, I got in touch with cloth on Facebook and asked for interview. Finally, after a few messages, he wrote back quote. We are just happy not trying to dig up the past. On Slater. I found an email for him I reached out again and I try one more time to get close to say something, the evidence. I had nasty
though the bombing was about his cousin way. Finnegan. He responded quote Those were terrible times for my family, which we are trying to move past of bee their due diligence and cleared me of any involvement. Have a nice night. Please be respectful Glenn Jones was plenty to bomb Beale M Building and appeared to have begun as a response to the death of low voice. Finnegan Johns Glenn Jones was plenty to Bonnet Beale, I'm building and appeared to have begun, the response to the death of low voice, Finnegan Joneses plot the continuation of the occupation of the now here, national Wildlife refuge, which was itself a ripple effect of the stand off at Bundy Ranch, but then for some reason, Jones Bomb Clubs, house, Instead of the be all and building in the years since the Bundy's high profile standoffs, more acts, extremist violence in them popping up in the news. And suspected of inspired by the Patriot movement.
But some of them share some of the same anti government and white supremacist police sort of a news, and the man suspected of sending a wave of male Bob's across the country is in handcuffs denied lake, a Florida man who mailed bombs to prominent liberals like Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton and George Soros, because he thinks there are part of a shadowy cabal accused of sending all those devices to critics of President Donald Trump or George, a man who killed a cop. Now there killer tear Guthrie claimed to be considered himself. A sovereign citizen, a nation unto himself, he didn't recognize police authority and considered, and I'm one if the Panada bombing was perhaps an early signs of this increasingly radical violence, a tiny window too small to see the whole picture, but a window nonetheless into extremist ideologies, are those ideologies become violent. It couldn't Ascalon Johns. Why you blew up the class house or if the bombing was opposed to send some sort of message
but there was someone else, someone who is actually ranch and who knew the voice Finnegan, who also tried to blow up a government bill, saying that seem summer, and when we come back Leah tracks down the man who said what happened at the Bundy Ranch served as around. To me is one of the biggest events in this country. This has, in its history Short Boston. Tea party to civil war, not my doubt, but it was a wake up call. This is reveal from the centre for investigative reporting and p R Eggs from the centre
investigative reporting in p r ex this is reveal a mallet back in February at a truck stop outside SALT Lake City Utah Lee as ITALY and Ryan has the pod CAS Bundy I've come to meet a guy bill. Came, he were, has been evolve with Patriot movement since the Bundy's first stand off with the federal government in Bunker Hill Nevada He says he ran security there. Afterwards he started his own volition. Fifty seven year old, William Killer, is known by the FBI. As a commander, other citizen militia group called the Patriots Defence force. June twenty. Sixteen the matter would feebler hit the button to detonate what he thought was a bomb to destroy. Building owned by the Bureau of Land Management, but it turns out the bomb was a fake
over FBI agents had given him the device he put guilty to the attempted bombing and serve time in jail. Now he's out on probation Leon Ryan pick up the story that restaurant insult me can I do anything. You die from smoking. Are you a bill? Deal Kepler looks like a shrivelling old ranch hand. He's got leather, his skin smokers cough says he cancer once in his head for heart procedures, two thousand and thirteen massive heart tat. He had to go from. She open heart surgery. But a Dennys tucked into the corner of the truck stop for most his working years. Kepler was a horse wrangler in hunting guide with his own company. We ease into the conversation that was Ryan than I just trying to get a feel for who were talking to what we can and can't ask, but it turns out there's a storyteller and he's happy to talk about his past? He's got story
from this time in the army or eleven. Bravo, infantry I went to a lot of specialized training, Fort Benning and went to Germany. I landed there and Friday, surety more woke up on russian congressmen, russian border- and he says He also knows his way around computers. I used to do coaster, nutrition, they can't break and they still ever nothin, I mean good, even says he is a black belt in Kung FU study, numerous Arza right black belt me for different styles he says he created his own system of kung fu. You can tell you, we like to think of himself as a kind the elderly, Rambo, you're, not regime, and I should be clear I wasn't able to verify most of his stories, but I also wasn't in Utah to figure out whether he got third place in the come through world championships. I wanted no, what happened with the FBI but first that,
convincing him that we weren't FBI agents for further talks with larger Obviously, I would surprise me both in the polar bear. Judges would show what I've seen, because in key where's world everyone's a potential threat, and he can't be too careful. He's been burned once already ask him why even telling me a story, but those older women on board tunnel for years came here, because I wanted to hear Kubler cited the bombing and understand how and why things became violent, but just a few minutes into the interview? What I'm really wondering is how did the f b I decide, focus on this guy. Is this old man in poor health, really the most dangerous person in the Patriot movement these skip over this special forces training, the computer, hacking and martial arts inventing the verifiable part of bills
people are story starts in twenty fourteen when he spent two weeks in Bunker Veil, Nevada, unclear in Bundy's ranch The family and some militias we're facing off with the Bureau of Land Management, because the Bundy's hadn't paid their grazing fees and the Beale EM and come to collect their cattle. The fact the key there was, there was later used by government prosecutors in cork as evidence extremism back there, Kubler says he was a member of the oath keepers, a militia associated with the Patriot movement and by his account at Bunny Ranch. He was a bodyguard for the family. He claims he is there, hey who kept things from descending into violence. We ve not accurately a lot of people from allowed them play under our stock, some people it should be. I do want to rehash Bunny Ranch, but the long and short of it is no one. Any shots and the government back down.
For the Bundy's cows were released and the be all and agents laughed Kubler was pumped up, and the patriots big when to me is one of the biggest events in this country. This has, in his history Short Boston, Tea Party, to civil war, not doubt, but it was a wake up, call Oh in the following months, back at home, you top people are started his own militia. He called it Patriots, defence force or Peter yes, it was a half dozen or so guys. The got together mostly to talk about self reliance. Basically did. Survival. Training practice target, shooting they were anti government papers talked a lot about going off grid about what to do. When things went sideways, is Kubler even showed people how to raise chickens and rabbits for meat. Then, a few months later, Kubler a phone call from someone. He met a bunker hill, Le Voice, Finnegan,
He wanted me to basically come in his place and gave him the support that we gave the Bundestag back. Then LE voice income was just a rancher in Arizona, and people are city was building up to his own bunker. Urville style stand off with the Beale. Am I can't fully verify what was said phone com, but I do know that around this time, in the late summer of twenty fifteen Finnegan was becoming agitate. With the Bureau of Land management. The lab, narrow, governess sad has exclusive legislative power. Over these last he was making pretty obvious on Youtube page. Not none of these bureaucrats do real left here, Marty CAT, none of them are accountable to Ass Mojave caddy. This is the debt of two from the way people are tells the story. Income was not only upset. He was looking for a fight and cable
the advertises is supposed expertise and military tactics to anyone who listen was happy too, bring his militia come help and prepare for the confrontation bondage. We gather after the fact, if we knew it was comin. Prepared, because they were actually apparent. They won't come just I was co, but it's pretty, unlike that anyone was coming for Finnish comes cattle records, The bill m should fit income only owed about fourteen hundred dollars in grazing fees. Comparison Clive in Bunny owed more than a million dollars accrued over twenty years, for the be all and planned a cattle round up that led to the stand off near as ranch, but that didn't stop Finnegan from preparing for the worst or key. From helping him do it. They came up with a plan. Is different than what the Bundy's had done at been incomes ranch cited, they will let the federal agents onto the land where a grace, this cattle and then spring a trap
and I don't mean ambush assault and kill and shoot none of that crap. That's where things are by Charger ad Lib ship. So let the bill I'm on the property and then using excavator to destroy the road behind them, so their truck couldn't get out certain place and when they come up to heal them cattle they can get here. What people are saying sounded way more extreme of an approach than when I sighed Bundy Ranch or in Oregon. He was saying they would trap federal agents and I had a wonder then: what are they gonna? Keep them hold them hostage, my truck them in the first place, but for I could get an answer. Kubler told me that another member of his militia wanted to below them all up bread, Mozart do wait till we get right. Your brother he's coma He were says: Brad Miller wanted to set off a bomb at the road block, but he had a few problems with that, for my child, though ass to your killer There was a network
Brad Miller, wasn't just a cattle killing dumb ass. He was. We an undercover FBI agent. In fact, burying times there were three confidential informants and three under cover. FBI agents in keyboard militia. So if you take wait: Kubler the FBI, agents and informants. There were at most just three members of PDF Militia, all this time for coming people had been planning a confrontation with federal agents with the help of federal agents, in court documents, their records of text messages, one of the other undercover FBI agents who went by the name, Jake Davis, sensuous handler right after this happened, he wrote quote. I hope we didn't open Pandora's box. I'm work about our liability in another text.
This worried about Miller's, continued taunting of Kubler quote, I am all for pushing him. But we can't sound more radical. He wrote to me That's what it sounds like we're doing. Late, he wrote I'm not down with giving him all. The ideas like when Miller told him that we would have to mail a bomb to the bill. Am office drive a car bomb up to it. We can't be put crazy ideas into a crazy guys head, but they did More than just put ideas in his head the course of their investigation, the FBI agents posing as militia members drove Kubler round the West to Patriot Movement gatherings they paid for trainings the majority of his militia and then finally, in the spring, twenty. Sixteen people are so to buy in will the militia that they were going to target Belem facilities way out in the middle of nowhere specifically appeal and building, If he had scouted near finical, ranch Finnegan by then had been
killed by police? After trying to drive around that police blockade in Oregon over the next? twelve months, the F b I made people are fake, pipe and then on June. Twenty first, twenty. Sixteen people are in the rest of his militia, travelled the Arizona and set the bomb out. Outside the building keyboard. Push the button on a fake NATO, the F B. I gave him and then the next morning they arrested him. This tortured brought handcuff miscarried terms. And dressed her negotiating green on his face Mr Mitchell you're, sorry, ass for two years had busted him in all it took was the agents three paid informants too years of pushing Kepler before they can Vincent to set off a fake bomb way out in the middle of the desert.
It's not every day you talk to someone, who's tried to bomb a building, and I have to say for a while fucking Kubler. I felt like maybe the f B. I missed the mark and manipulated about otherwise innocent man, so they could get a conviction. Think but an hour into our conversation, things took a hot. In turn didn't seem so innocent anymore. In fact, it became very hard to talk to him. It happened when I asked him about how he thinks the federal government should work think about your ideal situation with the federal government mistake that look like leg with that, their monk themselves, the gun, doing the job. They were meant to be the Gomes purposes basely for foreign affairs. But now we get Muslims prey on Europe day us in the hallways, in our schools and in our case oh damn business running you tie Georgia or Texas. Then he said
talking about how Muslims are taking over schools. You kindly populations in school we get Muslims, praying everything else in the hallways, in our schools and in our classrooms and teachers are now making his dress. Like Muslims I ask you to give me an example of where this was happening, but he just said number places yeah. They ve taken overhaul cities stop prayer. They must stop all the American stepped boy scouts. Everything make it isn't there out in the streets, retinue hundreds of our shit now who wrote in a cup stand, no emotional by irruption, serious verbally tanks, or for you good about fixed rednecks before drop pickup, dreadfully Nebaioth Kepler advocating for something that sounds like intimidation at best in it, fucking Muslims in the street at worst, and it's all informed
by his conspiratorial worldview? Maybe this is the kind of talk that brought the FBI to him tops now there dressed up again what looks like police force. Like please uniforms any random. What the work now, God it was preaching Christianity, two up there he's, been arrested on internet right now, you do it I think, the federal you think the federal government is in force are you just me earlier. It should be no shock at this point to tell you that Cuba It is also an ardent Donald Trump supporter. He loves him and he hates Barack Obama thinks he's part what conspiracy theories call the deep state, I suppose in Chad Our government cabal agreement today put him in the present is tat. He would make way for more Muslims to be again in United States. This was actually come out recent one than you.
Some reporters argue is made president's more Muslims as we arranged to build like sore. Mrs violence mulatto a lot of this about the new world order, Can you feel you going on right now? They can kill or child our doctors been born. They keep it alive. Loan of the organ stir development in a delicate and hardship Ports. At this point in our interview, Kubler, is looking at random. You like we're crazy, like how to not know any of this, sallow, then I can only go unnoticed, we're looking People are like how, crazy. Do you have to be to believe this stuff talking to keep? Learn? I feel, like I understand how far down the conspiratorial rabbit home you have to be in order to dead, need a bomb helps me understand Glenn Jones too, but at this
in time, keepers bigotry as clouded his entire perspective on the world people told life revolves around conspiracy theories, but in the world the militias and anti government groups. This is actually, nothing new, so we on the phone with other Jesse Walker, tell put a guy like Kubler. In context, Walker wrote a book called the unite. It states of paranoia I wanted to understand the role the conspiracies have played and militia groups throughout history in the Cold war era. Rightwing conspiracy theories to you had like the John Bird Society, I'm sort of shifting from in the nineteen sixties, from YO fears. Where are the young The enemy is based in Moscow to fears where the enemy is based in New York and monopoly. In Moscow and then in the nineties after the cold war ended in events like Ruby, Ridge and Waco happened a conspiracy did again, and so it's much easier. Just sort of Sea Washington as the enemy period
you, also have on the rise of the internet. I'm, not I'm, not someone who's. Who argues that the internet made people more paranoia, make people more conspiracies. I do think one thing that it death We did was allow more mixing among all these different groups of people who had previously been Much more separate from one another bill. Kubler fits this description of the modern conspiracy. Theorist, summoned, for a target for their anger. He was in the army fighting communism when Hold were ended here, look somewhere else and joined with malicious other, so called patriot groups to fight the government. Now he's a foot soldier for trouble. In his new enemies, are immigrants and Muslims and women aboard doctors to be alive, in George Soros. Hillary Clinton,
and brought Obama the deep state It was in an acid bath of conspiracy theories, so ass Kubler there's others going in his mind during the Obama administration, if he declared martial law Charlotte me barely around me to lesser central command, Post and we'll go from there, and I will start operations at that point. That would have been it should hit the fan with all day give chop deters martial law more controlled manner, he's not turn after patriots tonight demolition no now she there, you don't do you. Completion of racism in those people are gonna aims. When I asked him if this entire world she d Spirits is governed
Ga balls, really just a very elephants, racism after spending our tilling wildly inaccurate stories about Sri LA evasions at the border. How Muslims are a plague in a christian nation like Amerika. He tells me I'm off based ask at this all really comes down to bigotry, Kubler is built his world around these extremist ideas he's not willing to back down from them that much is clear. When rain ass in a different question, do you think happens if the Democrats strawberry some guy drugs abroad? What do you think happens with the patriot? that's all just one, I'm here and see and on internet all bets are off within all bets are off directive, which is worth it. He will learn the guy who tried to blow up a government building in who lives on Steady stream of hate from the internet says that he's had enough, if anything more than ever,
and to his guy trump, and he thinks it be time to take up arms again or forgotten. Retaliation, revenged pay back for a lot of them, I support what the boy what is happening there, children what is happening. Streets wars happen in our schools, people retribution listening to dead story. You might think the government spending a lot of resources to stop people like Bill Kubler, but in reality he's the exception. Not the rule. Don't get me wrong. The FBI I carries out Pliny Sting operations. This is usually focus on terrorist, acting in the name of Islam, even though there is way more act. Of right wing terrorism. We looked at this with type investigations a few years back and found that half
The incidents carried out in the name of Islam or stopped with sittings have meanwhile stings were used to stop just twelve percent of white supremacist, anti government and other right wing tears. In other words, law enforcement usually only focuses on rightwing violence after the bombs Explode Leah. I want to get back to the last thing that we heard from bookkeeper that people want retribution. What does he mean by that truly been a transition. I think in the years since the Bundy's stand ass, a lot of the anti government movement suddenly loves the government under Trump, which it kind of is, is counter intuitive right, like the anti government movement, is suddenly pro government because trumpets talking about things that they care about deeply things anti immigration, issues, anti muslim issues and Trump is this kind of anti government president, so retribution for guy,
GO, Kubler is seeing the extremes of those things coming. True. Finally, coming to fruition so a country with no immigrants, no more Islam, no more tolerance of any one, but white christian people. I mean that the two things, the idea that these groups or anti government and the fact that suddenly they are pro government under Tromp is not surprising to me. Because I think the underpinning of both of these things are white supremacy. How does that play out in anti government movements? There's this kind of coded light? wage of of racism in bigotry that that drives the groups and in the EU here under a lot of what they say so yet It's not really surprising that, after years of being mostly dormant. A lot of these anti government groups had a big resurgence under the first black president under President Obama. So you can
the evidence of the way white supremacy rides along with all of these anti government flashpoints in the last thirty years. So like Randy, we the guy who is at the centre of the Ruby Ridge, stand off. He was known to hang out at the area. Nations compound in North, Idaho, the Oakland city bomber Timothy Mcveigh, was inspired by a novel called the Turner diaries which certain envisions this future dominated by array swore. So what, since you have what people bill. Key blue will be doing between now and the presidential election next year. I think bill key were specifically is focused on getting off probation pet of disappearing into the woods. I guess if he could said he wanted to move out of Utah where he feels like the federal government is watching him. He's left social media in that kind of thing, but he's still occasionally toxic out conspiracies Pro Trump message is he's very
excited about some of the racist comments that the President Trump has been saying as of weight. So you can see an individual like him as really in getting excited about Trump also getting excited about these anti democratic anti. Are all conspiracies that then spread like wildfire on the internet. Why does the government have such a hard time stopping these kind of domestic groups, and I am thinking that ill when we look at this were primarily talking about white supremacist in the gulf. It doesn't seem to have a problem tackling other types of terrorism What does the government seem to have such a hard time, stopping these groups with violent tendencies? I think it's about Priorities after nine eleven, there was a major shift towards focusing cracking down on international terrorism and it took the focus off of domestic anti government groups that saw such a resurgence during the nineteen nineties, so I think that your car,
She is right on what's changed now to stop them. So what else do cover in the rest of the new season, a Bundy bill. I answered all kinds of questions, one of them is that I looked at how the anti government movement recruits other people to do violence and who stands to benefit from that violence so those questions to me all around the American West in actually led me. To a really secretive religious community that I'd long heard about up in Eastern Washington? That is thought of as Israel Patriot Friendly place and I think could be thought of as something of an origin point for a lot of the ideas that Western anti government movement is excited about these ITALY. Thank you so much. Thank you. We want to thank the whole team of Bundy Veal for their help. As we said full run of season, two is just out with more twists and turns highly recommend you check it out. You can also
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Transcript generated on 2019-12-19.