As the new coronavirus spreads, an ER doctor in Seattle explains how he and other front-line physicians are learning to treat patients and keep themselves safe. Plus, more than eight years after the end of the Iraq War, an Iraqi man is suing a U.S. company that ran interrogations at the notorious Abu Ghraib prison.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
From the centre for investigating reporting and pr ex. This is reveal. I'm outlet
The number of Americans with covert nineteen, keeps growing doktor Nick marked streams,
or more them. Some of these patients are very sick. Their lungs can't transport enough oxygen into the bloodstream
so we have to use machines and other therapies to support them
since Seattle were the first loan you S case appeared but figuring out how to treat it
these means doctors are improvising because it's brand new
when something is new? You dont know exactly how to treat it, and so
we're doing a lot of learning. Every one of these patients is teaching us more,
Some of the things we ve learned are we ve learned that they seem to respond well,
certain settings on the failure on their certain wasted and delete them that work better than others.
We also learning that there are important strategies to protect ourselves, so there are a lot of them.
Just comparing those around the country and see I mean it's almost like the crowdsourcing, the information that you posted on Twitter, a one page guide to how to treat Covid nineteen in the intensive care unit. What do doctors not know
so there's a lot of things we don't know, and that's actually that that was the motivation for me to put that together in. I think for me personally feeling,
Feeling, like I don't know what's going on, makes me feel very out of control. That's that's very scary feeling and one of the ways that I confront, that is by reading everything that I could about this and then I just sort of boiled that down distilled it to its essence out. One page which I share with colleagues in its
an amazing crowd, sourcing effort. I think you know now we ve got it and nine or ten languages which is pretty exciting. So what kind of questions
are you hearing from other doctors, so
what one of the biggest unknowns about this is. We know how to take care of people with respiratory failure, but we don't know how to treat covered specifically there's a lot of therapies.
But I've been tried in China and in the rest of the world. So, for example, there's a HIV medication called Le Pen, Revere return of here, which has been used, there's anti inflammatory
at ascends. There's a new anti viral medication programme does severe.
These are being tried, we don't know yet which of these is best which of these work, which patients it's best to use, which medication in our patients being put at risk by trying these different therapies so
You know, I think, at this point we were doing we're doing the best we can to give people the best answer. Recoveries are people who are very sick from covered are being treated with medications that
maybe effective based on the experience elsewhere in the world, but aren't proving yet this is moving so fast. We just don't have time to wait for large clinical trials to be done in many cases. We know that these drugs are safe because their drugs that have been used for other conditions, but we don't know, is how effective
there's a lot of confusing guidance out there for everybody for regular light, but it also seems like that,
there's a getting mixed messages that even different guidance from, for example, the senator
disease control, the World Health Organization, local health departments in the World Health or
station said the virus is an airborne, but there's research this as the opposite mean. How do we know it's true yeah, that's a big challenge.
One of the biggest in scary things is, is a lack of information, not knowing definitively some of these key things about it. You mention the question of airborne verses, droplet, spread and there's can if there is definitely conflicting messages going around. There is definitely conflicting policies, some hospital
Her telling workers that it spread by droplet seem don't mean to wear the more sophisticated mass, but we don't know if that is as good. There may be. Some added risk there. So we obtain some internal com.
Acacia from a medical organization, Seattle that explicitly tell staff to say nothing to friends and family and direct him to the organisations website. Do you think that information should be curtailed? I think
you know. It's really hard when you have loved ones who are worried about you tonight tell them what's going on here. You know. I understand that hospitals want to control information. I think that makes sense. I don't think it's like a cover up. I think they're, just trying to speak with one voice. That said, you know it's really hard
I think you you, you want to avoid misinformation, but you don't want to shut down communication altogether. I think that's, probably not a it's, not gonna work and be that's nice
that's, not really know who we are here, so those internal coming
stations that we obtain? They also give staff kinds about testing that had no special consideration for possible exposure
This is for frontline medical staff who we'd know or at high risk of exposure is doctors. Yet
ventilator now with corona virus. What do you want? As far as the guidelines for medical staff? That's a great question. So yeah, as you said, I mean a colleague, a colleague of mine, is honoured and later in the US
where he works right now? Many other friends and colleagues have had closed calls and have gotten tested were getting tested because they were potentially
most. Every single one of those is horrible, nerve, racking experience, and we need
We need clear guidance for when to do that. The guidance his
changed a lot, you know who to get tested wind, isolate yourself. We just
we don't have a great sense of all that all of that yet have handled the risk personally fate for yourself and your family. So that's that's one of the worst part,
this. Frankly, you know one of the nice things about critical care. Is that, even though its very intense work, you can
You can leave a lot of that stress at the door, but where
and you worry about literally taking the disease home with you, it's hard to do that so much
Can I get a lot of what, if conversations with had conversations with our friends who are also doctors who also have kids about you know if we were if we were sick? If we were incapacitated, you know, could you take our kids
vice versa. I also have a bit of a ritual of taking off my script.
In the garage washing hands just doing doing everything I can to prevent, bring this home with me and then being as careful as I possibly can be at work here? You ve contributed to a guide for medical folks about how to communicate with the public. Its blunt about tough conversations like this one,
came my grandma, given the icy you are you discriminating against her, because he's old were hearing doctor say that if they have to choose who put on ventilators that they need to choose people who will likely come out of it? Well
What do you say their grandmother? So I should say I should say a couple of things disorder preface that's just.
It's just, I see you care in general. There is a lot of things that we can do, but do not always a good idea to do right doing ever.
Thing for everybody is is not always. The right thing in this case is even harder, because covered seems to disproportionately cause severe illness in older p.
And in people who have medical care morbidity. So people who were already going into this at a disadvantage and that's tough. You know there have been just hard core wrenching accounts from ITALY,
about not having nearly enough ventilators and having to give them to only a select few. I want to reassure you listeners that
not the situation in Seattle bite
we're all worried that it could be in our not or not
because as yet, it looks like based on a numbers there about ten days ahead and our numbers are tracking exactly with where there were ten days ago. That's that's a heart.
Answer to hear because what's going on in, ITALY's is really heartbreaking. Debts yap and we often think about limited resources in terms of machines beds, but
the most valuable resource in the hospital. Is the people who know how to use those machines and know how to take care of people in the advance? And you know
One of the things that I worry about is is not just that the name
I see you, nurses and respiratory therapists and other support staff are gonna, get sick, but they're gonna get tired.
They're gonna get burned out. This is likely to be.
A marathon not a sprint and we're probably
like mile to or slash mile three of it doctor mark? This is a great conversation, but very sober
There is something else rock please. I think
This is a really important thing to remember right, because this is this is scary. You know this is it. This is a disease that you can get from somebody else's. An infectious disease,
it is really important to remember the shared humanity that the people who have is our people. That's important for us in the hospital to remember that these people are.
Soundly afraid their hearing about how terrible and scary this
iris is their cut off. In many cases we don't let them have visitors, because we don't want to spread this. So
oh, are in a room with no support from their family. Everybody who can
there is scared to be there and their wearing protective equipment.
Remembering like what these people are going through is really important, and I think anything that we can do to be compassionate to them, whether it's you know helping them face time with their loved ones, so they can have
some contact, or whether it's just as as healthcare providers spending an extra minute or two he now
in your hand, on somebody shoulder little things like
I think are really important now I mean those things are always important, but I think there are especially important when people are feeling a scared and isolated as they are with this dynamic man. Thank you for your work on the front lines and taken time to talk to us. Thanks ravening.
Nick Mark is a critical care specialists in Seattle,
well we're in the corona virus crisis, just like everyone has to make a shift here reveal. So do we
means or delaying the release of our first cereal project, american rehab
usually play at the launch it next week. It's about another public health crisis, drug addiction in American.
We investigate drug. We have programmes that are putting people to work without paying them. Tens of thousands of people a year are affected,
It's important reporting and some of the best radio we ve ever made, but the
just as in right, so for now
over the corona virus and continue to bring you other in depth investigative stories you ve come to rely on this. For like our next morning, the president,
has compared fighting the corona virus with going to war. In a moment, we look back at the Iraq
and one man's effort to seek justice from his american interrogators at Abu Ghraib, prison,
listening to reveal
hey, hey, hey it's out here with my latest podcast pig and there's so much happening in the world right now. It can feel absolutely overwhelming. That's why today explained from box, it's such a vital part gas each
the team picks and essential new story. That defines our moment big stories like, of course, the new growth of ours,
What does that mean that being a rate on in them,
Sean Romish roamed the hose sits. There was some of the world's best journalism experts and goes deep. Did they explain, isn't just for political
junkies. It explains the news in our world check it out. You can subscribe today explained anywhere. You get your pockets.
centre for investigative reporting in p r ex this is revealed a mallet. This month marks seventeen years. Since President George W Bush went on television and announced the start of your
war, and the legacy of his decision is still being fought over the war was
Controversial even before starting a war of choice, justified by reasons
no one ever prove Saddam Hussein and his regime
concealing their efforts to produce more weapons of mass destruction, and then
There are questions about how the? U S? Military, fought, the water, hiring private companies to work alone,
U S, soldiers, Erech,
Long with the war in Afghanistan was a test case for using private contracts on a scale
We ve never really seen before. In both worse, there were just as many private contractors
as members of the? U S, military and the way some of them.
Their job race, big questions,
After the war, there was a series of video clips that came to light. They ve been filled.
The conflict in said the heavy metal music in one of them, employees of a private?
military contractor called black water, DR convoy of trucks, down a wide open boulevard in Baghdad, a woman in a black burka waits to cross the street, and then one of the drugs so
swerves right into and knocks her to the ground. All a man on the street runs to help her, but the trucks
keep going in another video clip contractors with the same company drive around the city, harassing residents to the point that their randomly firing guns at peace,
in their cars today
We want to bring you the story of one man, an Iraqi who came face to face with private contractors in the war contractors he says took part in abusing it.
Years ago. He found a lawsuit against the company in this case has been making its way through the legal system. It may soon be taken up by the Supreme Court.
Our story is a collaboration with the United States of anxiety pocket.
W N Y see studios those reported by set free, whistler reporting, fellow with type media center and the one the one you this episode contains Graphic D
actions of violence welcome, and I thank I mean you must come first. I won't
introduce you to a family living far from the place state.
Is called home. My name is seller Hassan. I am from Iraq
Dollar Hassan, safe Allah, Jolly is from our province just outside Baghdad, a book
I am in Sweden. In less than a city he and his wife ammo and their three kids like talk were guy and most of us,
most other. They moved to Sweden as refugees and the thing about Sweden. The time I've
them in the spring and summer is that the days are really
we lost the sun or such like more than twenty hours long and it was Ramada, which means they were fast.
For twenty hours, so we were in the kitchen when preparing all of this delicious food that we eat in a couple of hours.
We do it every single NATO from alone and the kids all they could talk about was the food and the meal they were going to eat.
My favorite things to do with the rice. I can catch up
then take vetoes with very little pieces of neural, and then I put it on the internet. This is a really lovely family about their future
they're laughing together. All the time trying to find work. Learning anew,
great time is school in the morning, usually thirty and they're here. Ultimately, because
U S, warships and point the war in Iraq, the opening sample of operation erect.
Freedom! When President Bush, on my orders, George W Bush, announced
The american invasion of Iraq in March of two thousand and three sallow was work.
India is a province where he's from
in a machine shop. I'm all was,
as a teacher, their thirty five new born baby talk. What had just been born the people you look
will witness the honourable and decent spirit of the american military, and
Anyone who remembers this time will remember. There was widespread condemnation.
Of this war all over the world and in Iraq. The resistance
emerge soon after the Americans invaded some embassy star injured by the blast were chased by them and
started of it all Sala was look
for some way to do something mean
this terrifying period in his country, and he saw this job posting to be Rapporteur reporter Al Jazeera, the tv now
based and caught her eye data that people want Al Jazeera was hiring lots of people as reporters in Iraq to cover the war, and they were hiring. People
Sometimes in have all that much experience as reporters got the job based
We as a cameraman and field reporter.
And right away, Azalea alone, looked up only days after a bit of training he was sent out to report on.
Major incidents of violence explosion,
Generally, the sort of chaos that was Iraq
around the region that he was from cigarette manufacturers on site, he was out reporting all the time tat. We just need us me so that they can be that at least in his community Indiana people knew him. He was
local reporter was dean monotony and then what?
day in November. Two thousand and three Sala went
cover a bombing in the city of book. Cuba can individual lay set if either
He speaks mostly in Arabic, so we hired a translator, got an Vizier manly
so me, along with other outlets such as
and suppressed and writers. We went there to cover the story say out only be have the job.
And I was dear filming the car that had exploded
I even interviewed one look and politician who was there? I was talking to people and for
the surrounding side. When I sat down
awkward seller about this moment. He said that, as he was doing all this reporting there were
also members of the american military police at this site, and they asked all these reporters to gather around and they begin to ask them questions,
finally, how alleys themselves we were about five. Six journalists were lined up an hour's third, in the light,
and when my turn came, he asked my name and which, as tv
she now to present an out of an unhealthy financial Jazeera
and when I said my name and that work for Al Jazeera his
you're under arrest.
When I said why he's
you know why
at first Sela thought this must be a mistake, but at this point in the Iraq war just a mere eight months into the invasion, the? U S had begun broadening who it considered to be the enemy.
And Al Jazeera, which was one of the leading. If not, the leading arabic NEWS outlets became the most watch. Tv outlet in the Middle EAST had been reporting on the gruesome facts of the war, and it had become. This kind of tar
of the Bush administration. We know that Al Jazeera has a pattern of playing propaganda, Donald rums.
Then the Secretary of Defence had falsely claim that Al Jazeera was fabricating stories about civilian casualties that it was acting as El Qaeda's mouthpiece. What they do is is when there is a bomb goes down. They they grab some children and women.
Pretend that they bomb hit. The women and children and Al Jazeera
offices both in Iraq and
Afghanistan had been bombed than the United States, hit that office and killed
I tell you and in cellars case he was pulled out of that press grum and he was taken to a place that he'd only ever heard horrors about four year: Abu Ghraib prison where Saddam Hussein subjected prisoners to hideous torture. Abu Ghraib was in a rocky prison that stood for Saddam Hussein's brutality.
Bodies were eaten by dogs, torture in electrodes coming out of walls.
Access on the awful place was a place where people disappeared. Iraqis we're too afraid to come to Abu Ghraib
ask for information on their family members, but then, after the invasion
the? U S, invaded in occupied the country, the Americans,
the jail into their own prison and when sallow was detained there. One of the first things that happened to him was that the Americans stripped him now
With those who have sought early tat, I thought they were shouting that I should confess conversion and they asked confessed to when they said. You know what confessed to everything bad.
After I was forced to move my clothes and replace the black back over my head. The time
my has together behind my back and I was left outside from the evil,
until the morning, men level, all elite have been decision that first nyjord. When I hear the american outside
singing happy bearded, they Al Jazeera, while an that's when I saw it understood that this arrest concerns me and Al Jazeera coverage of the kind
flared up. You spent six weeks inside of Abu Ghraib, where he was interrogated, asked question
about Al Jazeera about why he work their hearing suggestions.
If you must know something about the insurgency and inside he was treated horrifically. The cloud
His arms were often chained to a post above his head.
Unable to move being threatened by an aggressive military dog barking growing at him unless he column
was edge than China, especially when you have the dog's approach.
You and you are in handcuff, you cannot do anything about it.
Standing their naked, I filled paralyzed. They had full power over me and even thought that they were capable of killing me anytime and throwing my corpse aside. A swat sort, often cannot be, was very painful, want to hear
nurse screaming in pain and realising that your ten will come to be tortured and beaten, evil
well said every two or three days he'd be interrogated. He didn't know exactly who was questioning him. He was
hooded, those he could see somewhere in military, uniform somewhere in civilian clothes,
and what we now know is that the interrogations inside of Abu Ghraib, they were carried out not only by members of the american military, but also by employees of a private contractor. An american company
called cocky. This is c c I which had been paid millions of dollars. America's priorities are our prior:
to provide interrogation services inside these american military presence of the citizen
Regular army soldier would take us
and the liberals to these people
Leave us with them and just handed over into their hands. Conway logic done a lot less class. Look. It was very ill
Brenda. They had another kind of power and authority than the regular military general delay medication.
One of the things seller remembers is that, while he was chained inside of that cell, he vomited on the floor in front of him.
Many was ordered by somebody to use the
jumpsuit that he'd been give
as is only piece of clothing, to wipe up the vomit on the floor. He was then told her put the jumpsuit back on my mother. Looked at one of them
whom is that always come back to me is the feeling of being observed. Looked at
if we were animals in zoos,
This is what I felt in the prison Canada path.
Oceans, he says on days,
It was sunny. There would be just sliver of light that would shine into the south where he was held in
that sort of his measurement of a day passing laws there to show how the work that we must not allow the spot was about half a metre, and it would only appear for thirty minutes, and I tried to step into that
bud and move with the light, so I can feel the sun. I can feel something from the outside world and our track. That's
but until the sunlight disappeared, hash, which way you learned and then at the end of December, two thousand and three Sala was just released. He was driven out of Abu Ghraib and dumped on a street outside of Baghdad and left there, and then he went home to AMO his wife and their baby daughter Back Indiana. Can you tell me about
when he came home. Can you tell me about that moment? The animal said the gain of cover and fellow cellar, the Lamb seasonable rape land? When I heard my mama, I couldn't believe the news because they told us that,
People who are taken to re they might spend years, or at least many months there-
select, convert player become and when he did get out, he was completely transformed
Sullenness Sala shadow help people common it was like
it was half of my husband. His head was shaven had to tackle a bucket
any solution, Antiopa tiredly above tat. He approached Uclaf,
and saying that I I'm here land she didn't respond. Lattice off him can Upham for how to him
Lehne, Sheila's Ackland, had resolved and had a bit John Morton.
But I remember being a joyful that day, I think more joy
then I was on our wedding day. When I first saw him, I saw that he was
like the heat was still with us. I love the onion shift the minutes into and when he got out
He said his editors of Al Jazeera asked him to file a memo on what had happened to him and when they read it, they were in disbelief. Mckenna had until deepening these who couldn't believe that any of these could be true.
Even journalists couldn't believe. How could such an incident happened without
knowing about it can indeed be able seller felt that what had happened to him was just his to bear
that, since he had no hard proof, nobody would ever really believe him, but then, in April, two thousand and four, this
The picture of an iraqi prisoner CBS News in the United States runs this story about apple grave, the armed conflict,
getting some sixty pictures of iraqi prisoners being mistreated releases. These images of people being tortured in women.
Side of that american prison. We want to warn you. The pictures are difficult to look user. The images that the EU has probably
then most burned into looting. All of our minds about the Iraq war. Americans did this
to an iraqi, pretty image of a man, a hood over his head standing on.
Box with his arms outstretched and allow
trickle wires attached to his fingers, Accord
the? U S army. He was told that if he fell off the box, he would be electrocute. There's an image of a stack of naked men who had been forest tat
create a pyramid one on top of another in some, but
the prisoners, your position to stimulate sex with each other and in those photographs are never
of the american military when holding on
till reaches posing with naked iraqi prisons
smiling in pictures of people being
abused in the most terrible of ways: Arab TV labelled the axe, atrocities. These images are splashed across the world. Television screens headlines around the world screamed torture and photos. Suddenly, at that everybody sees it, it's impossible to not believe that America's reputation already battered has suffered even more when you first saw those images. What was that
Oh well, I know none other liquid, gonna tenders are no Mckenna homes. When the images surface, it confirmed that this actually happened
where nobody believed me, because I had no proof so now I could see see these are in fact signed,
Everything was can impact to me the insult, the beating the pain, statutory, merge. Again. Much of this sort can learn as empty. The helicopter and solid believes that is in one of
those photographs that a group of lawyers showed him later to photograph shot from above of a man change
a post inside of a cell and in front of this man's body, is a puddle of dark liquid vomit. It's exactly what Sala said happened to him sure unequipped had eaten with the facility to excite why I had told them legible
These details- and these shocked me windisch
for me, this veto and they told him. Yes, this is it president.
Said today that he was disgusted by pictures of iraqi prisoners being abused by American. Similar treatment does not reflect the nature of the american people.
You know the scandal that was Abu Ghraib, immediately kind of exposed, the lie of a war of liberation, which is how the Bush administration had tried to justify the invasion and
eleven people, members of the american military ultimately were charged or disciplined for their part in these abuses, for men are charged with maltreatment and indecent dax? Some went to prison battery for shoving and stepping on detainees, sallow watch these prosecutions and he couldn't but feel that this wasn't enough going after a handful of Americans,
ultra see in these pictures may reflect the actions of individuals, but by God it doesn't.
Like my arms sullen knew those soldiers were part of a bigger system who was giving them orders and what about those people in civilian clue?
those who are working alongside them, though civilians as it turns out of work for the private contractors.
There was hired by the? U S military, to manage interrogations when we come back, we meet one of those contractors who worked at our grave
There's no excuse for me at the time having to have been able to look at those things and recognise that I didn't want to do. But I did you listening to reveal
from the centre for investigative reporting, p r ex this is reveal a mallet today, we're looking at the rule
who s private contractors played in abusing people who were detained at our great prison during the Iraq war. There are hundreds, possibly thousands of people like seller who was scarred by what happened to them. Some are still in Iraq, others like him,
a refugees trying to build a life in a new country. Then there are the people here in the: U S:
who worked inside american military prisons, people who abuse detainees reporter set whistler from type me
save your picks up the story and again a warning that this peace contains descriptions of physical abuse. I heard
a few months ago I drove out to a house, at the end of a quiet, suburban street, to meet Eric Fair. I live in Bethlehem Pennsylvania. I, my fair work, doesn't interrogator in
american military prisons in Iraq and live here and including Abu Ghraib life. We got there just after sallow was released. My boy
I spend my days coaching wearily again, meaning that he's been remarkably open about what he was part of. He spoken out talk to the press. He wrote a book about his time working in Iraq when he was an employee of this private company called catchy. I, of course I get asked about Turkey and he says
Abu Ghraib is a place. He can't shake for me. It serve a movie, just kids playing and it's not something
fifteen years ago. It's something that's happening right now. Can you describe what
you remember most physically about the place. I do
remember seeing the prisoners for the first time and I,
overwhelmed by the numbers. How many people we had put in prison Bab regret was filthy in port
run was over crowded. There is a violation of human rowdy and it was a crime.
How did you, as a contractor end up engaging in the kind of abuse or torture that you did? How did this happen?
I don't know I've spent so many years. Thinking about how that happen, and in some ways giving excuses. The big question is,
If I had to do over again, would I go back into it differently when change things? Of course I would, but I can't
It was who I was
I was someone who was willing to employ those
types of techniques,
things that I made up my mind or that I created red seen on tv. These were techniques.
Written down and
and were instructed in and described, and it was an awful thing to do. Fair came home from Iraq, return to Pennsylvania and he watched leading the physical answer
torture and as members of the U S military, were tried and went to prison, sentenced army, specialist, Charles greener to ten years in prison. He and he waited for somebody to come for him it if there is a prosecutor out there. That is going to make a case to prosecute catchy or
for any of US employees for torture. Then I m the easiest case. The evidence
is there an I've done, a really
a good job of me
It really easy for someone to hold me responsible, but nobody ever did. Nobody ever came to charge for prosecute the contractors, the civilian contractors
who'd been inside of Abu Ghraib and who Fair says did what they did
absolutely sympathise with the idea that a lot of people got away with a lotta awful things and that there should be some consequences. I mean everyone on some level needs to be held accountable for what they did in war
Fair believes that we all need to reckon broadly and deeply
as a country with the wars. We start.
And the violence we are responsible for, but holding a merry.
Accountable for what they did in war is not so easy. There was one case that day
don for more than a decade where federal prosecutors criminally charged employees of another contractor black water for a massacre in Iraq, but for people
like seller Non. U S, citizen living in a different country pursuing any
accountability on their own behalf. That's incredibly hard.
And one of the main reasons for that is this doctrine called sovereign immunity is so weird carry over from british common law. It me
the king can do no wrong in the men
conversion. It basically means as a legal matter. The government can be held liable for wrongdoing even in Iraq and
prison that the U S was in full control of,
but there was something Sala could do. He could find
civil lawsuit against the contractors who played a role in the abuses, and
great, why he could sue cat
Let's go on earth, and so
two thousand and eight group of lawyers, including the centre for constitutional rights, did just that
while the lawsuit on behalf of Sala
three other men would also be
held in Abu Ghraib, unlike Zella, had been released without charge
because the opposition to how she married to Hell Summary is one of the other plaintiffs in this case, raised rate is right in his deposition also Marie told the court what had happened to him? The other could just me,
me. You know I love my body. Cannot
my sheep, like seller, he recalled terrible abuse and
painted. Also Murray was subject to gratuitous
humiliating sexual touching when on multiple occasions, or
to bend over and inserted their fingers into his random,
we re not an investigation by the. U S: government of what had happened inside of Abu Ghraib and members of the committee the morning all
I am a general intoning empty goober. It actually said that at least one cocky employee had been part of making decisions about how detainees were interrogated. There, however, and instructed military police to abuse prisoners
We gathered evidence pertaining to the involvement of several
their intelligence, personnel or contractors assigned to the two office and my brigade
and the alleged detaining abuses at our bugger up and member,
the? U S, military of who were put on trial over the violence and Abu Ghraib, set on the stand that catchy employees had instructed them to abuse prisoners which were damning allegations. Remember seller had spent months unable to get anyone to fully believe what he had said
I condemn lacking on out of a nor should it get gotta gonna know dude, I know tacky company was there entered
gaiters aware from cocky company. This is obvious, and we have evidence on this.
Which we filed in the court of them, that the police, and so he and his lawyers they felt like they have this very clear case of khakis. Complicity in these well documented abuses that, according to testimony
report. The company had been part of making decisions about detaining treatment, and he and the other plaintiffs felt they finally be able to bring this story before an american judge and a U S. Court stated, but that's not exactly what happened
really see in Shamayah versus see a what happened is that right away? Cocky began to fight the case against it tooth and nail good morning.
Please look work. My name is John Oconnor and, along with Michael Council Bill, Dolen we're pretty
CS the eye in this field, cocky or
you see I tried out every argument could think of and to convince the court that, since it was the federal government that had hired them remain there protected latest and so far for twelve whole year, assert its managed to keep this case from going.
While the court has a number of different ways that it could resolve this case and ends
case. Essentially here today, no one not even try.
He ever contested that sallow was held in Abu Ghraib, but the company argue that whatever had happened to him there, he couldn't prove that catchy had anything to do with it. The record does include some allegation, mostly in government reports of discreet acts of misconduct. None of which I think I would in any
way qualifies torture. Another argument- and this really was a kitchen sink approach- was that this case wasn't anything that a judge should be Wang at all that what happens in war is a political issue, not illegal one. That is something for Congress and the President to deal with dealing with cases been going on quite a while, it's been thrown out reinstated delayed appealed repeatedly, but remarkably, it's still stand.
I asked cocky for an interview. The company didn't respond, but its strongly denied allegations of wrong doing in our past statement, it said quote: these lawsuit are completely without merit and designed to pursue a political agenda. And, let's long, what do you suggest, or next steps in tacky tried? Another argument to please the court judge Wattle. Remember that idea, sovereign immunity. It's the idea that you can't see the king dwelt, Khakis lawyers put forward this other arguments. They said that catchy had what they call derivative sovereign immunity as effectively the company saying that there
operating like there, the kings arm and there under the control of the king's head, and if the king can't be sued. Well, then you can't sue the kings arm and cocky has taken this argument all the way to the Supreme Court.
Worse still waiting on the justices to decide. If they're gonna take this case. If they choose not to, then it might finally go to trial in front of a jury, but if they do take the case for solar and the other plaintiffs, there's real reason to be concerned:
because of who now sits on the nations highest bench near zero, one at all, salad, individual at all for Sis II, Asia, International, being Justice Brook Cavanaugh, whose lauded bike
serve. It is heard a very similar case when he was on the Dc Circuit Court a decade ago. Another case about: U S military contractors, including category.
Treatment of prisoners in a war zone. By U S, military contractors could be governed by the enemies law its now. This case also dealt with accusations of torture at Abu Ghraib. One of the mechanisms in our system of american jurisprudence that keeps corporations abiding by the law is a spectre of tort liability, any evidence of the cavern,
who was very sceptical of the detainees. Arguments threw out the case and there is reason to think you
act in a similar way now, which, as Sela himself recognises, could prevent his case and others like it in the future. From going to trial,
if the recognition Jimmy. I think the law should be applied to individuals everywhere. Otherwise, this would give immunity
it's. The Americans to go outside the borders commit heinous crimes
would be no consequences,
Thank you all. Once the sun finally set in Sweden night, I went to visit Sallowness family. We sat down for a meal.
There should be an as I looked around the table. It occurred to me these kids
This case has been going on their entire life. Sullen is
I also have waited and waited through. This starts and stops of this case. For years
have their moment in court, the Iraq war and
happen to Sala has completely uprooted this family.
Beyond platinum men bit method. At a day, we left Iraq. I knew inside that this was
farewell without return, but there
no going back and the country was being broken and that we will return after they left the war,
deepened civil war. The rise of the Islamic State Sky
marketing unemployment, corruption, it's been a barrage but foresaw and also their trauma.
Doesn't go away and amid all
All of this wreckage. They ve stayed with this pursuit as its ground forward and back in the american ports
Morocco Language, but it came a hack employed as they say, come to erode the reckoning. As long as the ultimate goal was that what happened to select
should never happened to anyone again. I ask
of us who were never there. We have a way of very quickly putting things like Abu Ghraib behind us for solar and people like him, there's been very little.
To actually tell their stories. Sir,
was still working as a journalist filing free
stories from Sweden, but when it comes to what happened to him, there are still real questions for him. A big part of this case is about putting the facts on the table and in America,
in court on agenda from older. There is another point to be made, which is,
the memories will remain a bed
I can have head inside me. There could come a point,
as they say the forgive her is generous. The word admission of guilt could come
and where we say ok, I forgive them
There has been a series of law suits like this. One file to hold contractors accountable for abuses and crimes in war they ve all been thrown out or settled out of
This is the last one standing and beyond that, at a time when the president has supported the use of water boarding and even pardon those who ve been charged with war crimes. This may be the
Ass chance for solar and other victims of american abuses in war to forests, what happened back into View
over the past year,
He has been awarded several New: U S, government and military contracts worth up to nearly three billion dollars over the coming years. In the meantime,
were still waiting on the Supreme Court to decide whether to hear the case. Our story was reported by.
Set free whistler. A passion reporting fellow with tight media center, was produced in edited by Christopher Worth. The stories in partnership with the United States of anxiety about gas hosted by my
Dude car right from W N Y see studios. I highly
recommend you check out the shows latest season with they trace the origin of today's most contentious political debates to their roots in the reconsider
arab following the civil war, they dive in school segregation, immigration and races, housing policies
you can find the United States of anxiety where ever you get your protest.
I got a virus coverage
produced by Emily Harris withheld from Esther Kaplan Jennifer Gallon by Duncan Elizabeth Chauvelin. Talk utilities edited the show.
Two Ibrahim Hussein I mean Circular Casey means CARE Truman, Mary Mccune, an unduly comet for their work on the Abu Ghraib story.
Victoria Bear Nevsky. Is our general council, a production marriages Melinda in a host of original scorn,
designed by the dynamic dual J Breezy is Jim Briggs, Fernando my manual Aruba, embracing bars Barnes that help this week from animals.
Our sea, always Croatia from Bert Miss Thompson? Is our editor in chief executive producers Kevin solving our theme, music is by Colorado, lightning support for reveals, provided by the River and David Logan Foundation. The John Dene Catherine Team, Macarthur Foundation, the Jonathan Logan
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Transcript generated on 2020-03-31.